Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Match Threads & Player Ratings => Topic started by: Dave on November 21, 2020, 05:02:13 PM
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Should have been a point. Wasn't.
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VAR BOLLOX !
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three consecutive home defeats is worrying
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We're a team capable of banging in 11 and getting 9 points against the likes of Liverpool, Leicester and Arsenal.
We're also capable of giving up 9 and getting 0 points against the likes of Southampton, Leeds and Brighton.
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I can see why the penalty wasn’t given, the point is though that we were failing in too many aspects of our game to make that a certain win.
You can not give the opposition 2 goals and expect to win too many games.
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I can see why the penalty wasn’t given
Because Michael Oliver is a twat?
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Got what we deserved frankly. Barkley going off knocked the stuffing out of us, but too many players were well below par. I wouldn't give any of them over a 5.5. Mings needs to fuck off to the reserves and re-learn the basics - has the look of someone believing his own press.. Beating Liverpool and Arsenal is all very well, but you have to get something from teams like this at home or you're gonna be in trouble sooner or later.
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Love him as I do this is Deans main weakness. He would prefer to lose a game 10-9 than be pragmatic and get a result by another tactic.
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For all our huff and puff, their goalie barely made a save.
Crap corners, crap crosses. Crap defending and crap referee.
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Things conspired against us today. International players looked knackered, Barkley hamstrung in 1st min, Trez having a barn door day and to top it all off screwed over by VAR. the good news is that last season they looked better than us, today they didn’t. We go on...
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Reasonable going forward although not enough movement again. The defence is a car crash waiting to happen. Was Oliver the ref who didn't give the ghost goal?
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The penalty decision was a farce but that shouldn't cover up our inadequacies. We continue to be easy to play against at home and if we are going to have to score 3 to win a game then we have no chance.
Thought we were off throughout the team. Even with that though we still looked lively going forward.
Consecutive home defeats against Leeds, Southampton and Brighton.....Not good enough.
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We weren't good enough today. Some tired performances, some shit performances, some careless performances and that contributes to losing the game.
As for the pen, you won't see a reversal like that against any of the "top" sides. Not a hope in hell.
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Referee going on the theory that if the defender gets a touch on the ball it can't be a foul, which is nonsense.
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Typical Villa!
Stuff Arsenal at the Emirates and then lose at home to Brighton.
Grrr.
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Sloppy defending for both goals.
And missing sitters means you lose games.
Trez is a luxury player that holds us back from being consistent. He has so much of the play with so little to show from it.
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Poor in defence but should have got a draw, deserved a draw, robbed of a draw. That penalty decision is an utter joke, up there with the Fernandes penalty and the Palace disallowed goal. We do get fucked over a fair bit by refs and VAR.
Grealish looked off the pace second half, Mings dreadful all through, and Trezeguet, why did our three best chances fall to a bloke who shits his pants and swings a leg.
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Smash and grab.
I wonder how many points Mings has cost us over the last two years?
I think he's a very decent player but a fair few of the goals conceded have been laughable.
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For all our huff and puff, their goalie barely made a save.
Crap corners, crap crosses. Crap defending and crap referee.
Agree our set pieces were woeful yet again
Little point having the most fouled player in the league if you are useless at freekicks.
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I can see why the penalty wasn’t given the point is though that we were failing in too many aspects of our game to make that a certain win.
You can not give the opposition 2 goals and expect to win too many games.
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Then your’re in a minority of one then. Stone wall penalty for anyone else.
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Hugely disappointing loss.
Guess I was wrong thinking we were much better without fans at VP.
Seems like we thought we'd done the hard work getting back to 1-1 and then we eased off straight away and damage was done.
We really need to sort out our shape in home games as it's too easy for oppo to break through between our midfield and attack. Perhaps putting in another DM alongside Luiz is the answer and have more disciplined shape.
We also need more in January. Pretty much every other club in league has a reliable plan B striker to chuck on in home games they're losing, we don't and it's costing us points.
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I guess we just remain incorrigibly Villa.
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Stonewall. Just because their player got a touch? if he not fouled Trez the ball was his and March was beaten. A foul is a foul. Getting an accidentally touch on the ball doesn’t absolve March from his misdeed.
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How on earth that wasn’t a penalty is beyond me. Trez made a meal of it but it was a foul end of story. I don’t think theirs was a sending off though. Good game to watch for the neutral I guess but so disappointing in the end for us. The games are just impossible to predict at the moment. Brighton are a decent side though and play some nice stuff.
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I can see why the penalty wasn’t given, the point is though that we were failing in too many aspects of our game to make that a certain win.
You can not give the opposition 2 goals and expect to win too many games.
I can see why the penalty wasn’t given, the point is though that we were failing in too many aspects of our game to make that a certain win.
You can not give the opposition 2 goals and expect to win too many games.
Then your’re in a minority of one then. Stone wall penalty for anyone else.
I thought the pen looked iffy and could be argued either way.
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This result was probably on the cards as soon as we started talking about an easier run of fixtures...
The home form is worrying and it needs to be fixed asap. If we have any aspirations to be challenging for European places, Villa Park needs to be a place where most away sides expect a defeat and feel relieved if they come away with a narrow defeat/point.
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I can see why the penalty wasn’t given, the point is though that we were failing in too many aspects of our game to make that a certain win.
You can not give the opposition 2 goals and expect to win too many games.
I can see why the penalty wasn’t given, the point is though that we were failing in too many aspects of our game to make that a certain win.
You can not give the opposition 2 goals and expect to win too many games.
Then your’re in a minority of one then. Stone wall penalty for anyone else.
Not a minority of one. I also can see why it wasn’t given. Fucking annoying though.
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We did enough in that game to win it comfortably, but Dean wants to go back to the psychology he used for the defence in time for project restart. We looked terrific at times going forwward and despite losing Barkley were on top. Couldn't handle their counters, our passing was at times sloppy (hands up McGinn), and Trez needs to settle himself before whacking it oiver the bad - every time.
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Referee looked at one angle and saw the defender touch the ball. Anything after that like the kick to the shin was judged irrelevant.
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Taking Luiz off was a big balls up.
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Trez could have stayed on his feet and tried to play the ball, he was looking for the penalty, he dived, the touch on his leg did not impede Trez from playing the ball.
Yes we have seen them given for a lot less but I do not think it was a penalty.
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When’s our next Sunday night match ?
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Pen every day of the week.Wonder if Oliver felt sending off Lamtey was too harsh so he evened it up for them.
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This result was probably on the cards as soon as we started talking about an easier run of fixtures...
The home form is worrying and it needs to be fixed asap. If we have any aspirations to be challenging for European places, Villa Park needs to be a place where most away sides expect a defeat and feel relieved if they come away with a narrow defeat/point.
Was never really that under MON though although it was more draws than defeats in those days.
7-8 away wins will still mean a pretty good season.
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I can see why the penalty wasn’t given, the point is though that we were failing in too many aspects of our game to make that a certain win.
You can not give the opposition 2 goals and expect to win too many games.
I can see why the penalty wasn’t given, the point is though that we were failing in too many aspects of our game to make that a certain win.
You can not give the opposition 2 goals and expect to win too many games.
Then your’re in a minority of one then. Stone wall penalty for anyone else.
Not a minority of one. I also can see why it wasn’t given. Fucking annoying though.
Two then :D
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Trez could have stayed on his feet and tried to play the ball, he was looking for the penalty, he dived, the touch on his leg did not impede Trez from playing the ball.
Yes we have seen them given for a lot less but I do not think it was a penalty.
I think that is pretty spot.
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I thought the pen looked iffy and could be argued either way.
Do you think we would have got away with it? I've seen plenty of yellow and red cards given this season where the player's got a touch on the ball but followed through to foul the opponent. The analysis always says getting touch on the ball is irrelevant if you follow through and foul the player.
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This result was probably on the cards as soon as we started talking about an easier run of fixtures...
The home form is worrying and it needs to be fixed asap. If we have any aspirations to be challenging for European places, Villa Park needs to be a place where most away sides expect a defeat and feel relieved if they come away with a narrow defeat/point.
I agree, anyone caught using the term ‘winnable games’ deserves a damn good thrashing.
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I can see why the penalty wasn’t given, the point is though that we were failing in too many aspects of our game to make that a certain win.
You can not give the opposition 2 goals and expect to win too many games.
I can see why the penalty wasn’t given, the point is though that we were failing in too many aspects of our game to make that a certain win.
You can not give the opposition 2 goals and expect to win too many games.
Then your’re in a minority of one then. Stone wall penalty for anyone else.
Not a minority of one. I also can see why it wasn’t given. Fucking annoying though.
It wasn't given because a myth has been allowed to spread for decades that if you get any contact with the ball as the defender then you've 'won' it and anything that happens afterwards is irrelevant. It's bullshit. If you look on BBC, etc there are loads of comments saying exactly that. It's wrong and needs to be changed, throwing yourself at the attacker and hoping he kicks the ball against you is in no way winning the ball.
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Referee looked at one angle and saw the defender touch the ball. Anything after that like the kick to the shin was judged irrelevant.
That was my take. Soon as I saw it again, I knew it was going to be overruled.
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That was never a clear and obvious error to be overturned, VAR Is killing the entertainment. A few players were below par today especially the midfield.
Brighton looked dangerous on the counter and their keeper didn't have that much to do especially the second half.
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Reasonable going forward although not enough movement again. The defence is a car crash waiting to happen. Was Oliver the ref who didn't give the ghost goal?
Yep. He was also the ref who didn't send Pickford off for the assault on Van Dijk.
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I thought the pen looked iffy and could be argued either way.
Do you think we would have got away with it? I've seen plenty of yellow and red cards given this season where the player's got a touch on the ball but followed through to foul the opponent. The analysis always says getting touch on the ball is irrelevant if you follow through and foul the player.
But did the contact impede Trez? Getting a touch and then mowing down the player is one thing, contact having played the ball is another thing entirely.
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Possible we won't win the league now, and we couldn't have picked a fresher team to play against after the international break. Beat West Ham and it won't be the end of the world.
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Every other team in the league would have been given that penalty
However, a draw was the best we could have asked for, Mings was dreadful, caught out of position, gave the ball away Defensively we were crap and fluffed our first half chances.
for all our corner count we never really put their keeper under pressure.
Losing three at home is a pisser, but we are Aston Villa we do what we do.
Other games to come must do better
PS Trarore was poor
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Rubbish decision, that was a penalty. Stupid stupid ref.
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March's own reaction shows he thought he'd fouled Trez. I think anywhere else on the field, it would be a foul. March snicked the ball but impeded the player.
VAR would certainly not have overturned that last season. As soon as the VAR ref suggests the referee goes to the monitor, you know it's going to be overturned.
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Trez could have stayed on his feet and tried to play the ball, he was looking for the penalty, he dived, the touch on his leg did not impede Trez from playing the ball.
Yes we have seen them given for a lot less but I do not think it was a penalty.
Tend to agree with this. If an opposition player were to do the same you’d be furious. Gutted it wasn’t given but it was one of those decisions that really could have gone either way, today it didn’t go in our way.
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Reasonable going forward although not enough movement again. The defence is a car crash waiting to happen. Was Oliver the ref who didn't give the ghost goal?
Yep. He was also the ref who didn't send Pickford off for the assault on Van Dijk.
Getting a bit of a track record for being shite isn't he? I'd always thought he was one of the better ones until today.
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Not good enough. Mings set the tone - sloppy, casual and lacking intensity. McGinn was similar.
A really poor result and we are too weak when we go behind.
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has any ref been called over to the monitor and actually stuck by his original decision
not one has got any balls, robot wankers the lot of em
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Was working today so only caught bits and then the last 15/20 mins. From that I thought Jack tired, McGinn never, the full backs were trying to bomb on, Mings looked really wobbly.
It was a soft pen but a pen, there given every week, once the ref was advised to go to far he was always going to overturn it.
Don’t mind Brighton and their decent and won’t go down. But gutted we’ve lost 3 at home. Barklay could be out for a few weeks with a hamstring as well, a shame him and jack didn’t have opportunity to carry on where they left off against Arsenal.
It’s going to be one of those seasons and I still think we’ll have a good season, but agree with those who say we need some back up for Ollie in January. Actually we ended up with 3 wide men on today, could of done with less of those and Davis supporting Watkins. El Ghazi put in some good crosses but no one there.
Hopefully our away form continues at West Ham and we turn over wor Steve in next couple of weeks.
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9 days until the next game so they should be fresh.
We go again.
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It's a shocking decision. You could see clearly in the replay that his foot makes contact with Trez's shin and makes it wobble with the force. The fact that he may have touched the ball briefly before is irrelevant.
But anyway, what an absolutely terrible display that was today. Shit all over the pitch, Mings had of of his all too frequent shockers, and the ease with which we get turned over by teams like Brighton when we're looking to push up the table is woeful. Absolute bottle jobs, the lot of them. And I don't buy the tiredness excuse, because if it wasn't international fortnight, then we'd have had two or three league games anyway and all of our players would have played them, rather than the few who were away for internationals.
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Also, March just admitted on his interview on BBC that his heart was in his mouth with the penalty which suggests he was surprised it was overturned.
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I thought the pen looked iffy and could be argued either way.
Do you think we would have got away with it? I've seen plenty of yellow and red cards given this season where the player's got a touch on the ball but followed through to foul the opponent. The analysis always says getting touch on the ball is irrelevant if you follow through and foul the player.
But did the contact impede Trez? Getting a touch and then mowing down the player is one thing, contact having played the ball is another thing entirely.
Do you honestly believe he played the ball, in that he saw Trez knock it away from him and deliberately let it lightly brush his heel? Aside from that, yes he did impede him, Trez made the most of it but there was clear contact to his shin.
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has any ref been called over to the monitor and actually stuck by his original decision
not one has got any balls, robot wankers the lot of em
Yeah Graham Scott was told to look in the monitor after Lamptey's goal at Tottenham. There was the clearest of fouls by a Brighton player in the build up to the goal but he still gave it.
The whole rationale for VAR is that it gets everything right which is the absolute opposite of how it's working out.
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How many fucking balls did a Trez put over the bastard bar
one from about 3 yards out with an open goal in front
Absolutely piss poor finishing
one of the most frustrating games I’ve seen for a long time
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has any ref been called over to the monitor and actually stuck by his original decision
not one has got any balls, robot wankers the lot of em
Once I think,and he got that wrong. Graham Scott allowed a Brighton equaliser against Spurs despite an obvious foul in the build up
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We weren't good enough today. Some tired performances, some shit performances, some careless performances and that contributes to losing the game.
As for the pen, you won't see a reversal like that against any of the "top" sides. Not a hope in hell.
Thanks, Nev. Saves me saying it. Worst thing is, Brighton were the poorest team we've played so far this season, the points were there for the taking but oh no, we put in a performance that wouldn't have looked out of place last season.
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Mings and McGinn were awful today and why Doug was take off instead of McGinn defies logic.... Brighton got a bit cynical in the second half.... we need to learn that I’m afraid.... that Lamptey is a bit rapid though...
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Trez could have stayed on his feet and tried to play the ball, he was looking for the penalty, he dived, the touch on his leg did not impede Trez from playing the ball.
Yes we have seen them given for a lot less but I do not think it was a penalty.
Tend to agree with this. If an opposition player were to do the same you’d be furious. Gutted it wasn’t given but it was one of those decisions that really could have gone either way, today it didn’t go in our way.
I thought brilliant VAR was supposed to stop these 'debatable' decisions?
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I thought the pen looked iffy and could be argued either way.
Do you think we would have got away with it? I've seen plenty of yellow and red cards given this season where the player's got a touch on the ball but followed through to foul the opponent. The analysis always says getting touch on the ball is irrelevant if you follow through and foul the player.
But did the contact impede Trez? Getting a touch and then mowing down the player is one thing, contact having played the ball is another thing entirely.
Do you honestly believe he played the ball, in that he saw Trez knock it away from him and deliberately let it lightly brush his heel? Aside from that, yes he did impede him, Trez made the most of it but there was clear contact to his shin.
yes there was clear contact with his shin, the question is about impeding an opponent with contact
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Lamptey is a bit like wolves’ Traore.
All fart and no shit.
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How on earth that wasn’t a penalty is beyond me. Trez made a meal of it but it was a foul end of story. I don’t think theirs was a sending off though. Good game to watch for the neutral I guess but so disappointing in the end for us. The games are just impossible to predict at the moment. Brighton are a decent side though and play some nice stuff.
Lamptey could have been booked in the first minute for a foul on Grealish
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I can see why the penalty wasn’t given
Because Michael Oliver is a twat?
The only explanation. If his interpretation was applied consistently players would be allowed to just kick the ball and then quickly punch attackers on the nose.
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Also, March just admitted on his interview on BBC that his heart was in his mouth with the penalty which suggests he was surprised it was overturned.
It was clear from his demeanour at the time that he thought it was. He certainly wasn't claiming he'd played the ball.
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THE REFEREE'S A WANKER!
THE REFEREE'S A WANKER!
THE REFEREE'S A WANKER!
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Very poor and tired performance. Our crossing from open play and corners was shocking. The international returning players looked knackered and under performed. Looks like consistency is going to be our problem this season.
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I can see why the penalty wasn’t given
Because Michael Oliver is a twat?
The only explanation. If his interpretation was applied consistently players would be allowed to just kick the ball and then quickly punch attackers on the nose.
Michael Oliver is having a really poor season and it is costing teams results. He thinks he's the best there is but he needs to think again.
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Disappointing, but the fact it was at home isn’t relevant. There is little or no home advantage without fans. Why do the commentators on TV pretend otherwise?
Thought Cash and Trez did well today (bar the finishing in the latter’s case). Seen us play worse and win. It was sloppy though. The Emperor looked hungover.
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Lamptey is a bit like wolves’ Traore.
All fart and no shit.
I think Lamptey looks a cracking player. That’s also not true about Traore.
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it was a penalty for me
but if Trez gone down normally without doing a massive swallow dive i don’t think the ref would have been called over
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We’ve been robbed blind today and a draw was the least we deserved.
Brighton are decent too and I have to say it was a great game to watch (if you weren’t completely one eyed like me)
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Rubbish ref, Mings and McGinn just aren't as good as they think they are, need two up front at home, Trezeguet is ridiculous. Ah fuck it, it's 2:30am, time for whiskey.
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Lamptey is a bit like wolves’ Traore.
All fart and no shit.
Err no not for me
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As others have said Mings was very poor today and he needs to improve quickly.
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Thought it was one of Jack’s least effective games and sadly others didn’t step up to cover it. Although in fairness he created that chance for Ollie in the first half and whilst it was a fine last ditch tackle Ollie should have been more alert and done better.
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We should not be hanging on for a penalty decision against Brighton, there was an awful lot wrong with that performance.
We had to score one of the many chances in the first half and we need to take a good look at replacing Mings.
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We are going to finish between 9-14th,
As long as we make the same improvement next season it’s an acceptable stage, a stepping stone.
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We should not be hanging on for a penalty decision against Brighton, there was an awful lot wrong with that performance.
We had to score one of the many chances in the first half and we need to take a good look at replacing Mings.
We need a big, strong, composed Scandinavian in the middle of defence.
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I thought the pen looked iffy and could be argued either way.
Do you think we would have got away with it? I've seen plenty of yellow and red cards given this season where the player's got a touch on the ball but followed through to foul the opponent. The analysis always says getting touch on the ball is irrelevant if you follow through and foul the player.
But did the contact impede Trez? Getting a touch and then mowing down the player is one thing, contact having played the ball is another thing entirely.
Do you honestly believe he played the ball, in that he saw Trez knock it away from him and deliberately let it lightly brush his heel? Aside from that, yes he did impede him, Trez made the most of it but there was clear contact to his shin.
yes there was clear contact with his shin, the question is about impeding an opponent with contact
It really isn't, you see hundreds of freekicks and penalties given every weekend across all the leagues where the player could've carried on, once there's illegal contact the ref can choose to play on or allow an advantage but it's a foul either way. If the attacker is unable to take the advantage for any reason then the foul is given.
This penalty had nothing to do with that though, it was purely based on March made contact with the ball so nothing after that matters to the ref, which isn't what the rules state and isn't consistent with how the rules are applied. As lots of other people have said, outside the box that's a free kick and probably a yellow card and no one bats an eyelid, reversing the decision was every bit as bad as the decision to not reverse the Bruno Fernandes one last season.
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Lamptey is a bit like wolves’ Traore.
All fart and no shit.
I think Lamptey looks a cracking player. That’s also not true about Traore.
Agree
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We are going to finish between 9-14th,
As long as we make the same improvement next season it’s an acceptable stage, a stepping stone.
I’ve said before. Fifth in the championship to 14th in the prem (my predicted finishing place) in 2 seasons would be remarkable progress.
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Lamptey is a bit like wolves’ Traore.
All fart and no shit.
I think Lamptey looks a cracking player. That’s also not true about Traore.
Agree
When your hearts in your mouth every time he gets the ball
normally suggests he’s got something about him
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Lamptey is a bit like wolves’ Traore.
All fart and no shit.
I think Lamptey looks a cracking player. That’s also not true about Traore.
Agree
He is superb. Moves the ball up the pitch at pace. I wish we could buy him...
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I thought we played very well but the defence is a bit of a worry in particular Mings. We had about 12 Corners and our 9tf high centre back went up for them and then returned to his defensive position without going anywhere near the ball.
He only wins unchallenged headers when defending.
But, we are far better than the likes of Brighton. Made me smile when Keown said it was an end to end game as the stats said Villa 12 Chances and Brighton 3 chances. Also at that time we had has 9 corners to their nil.
If we had scored first today, and we really should have, I reckon we would have won by 3,4 or 5.
I'm really pissed off losing this but I know we are on the way to be a real top side again. Reminds me of going to Albion in a Friendly when we had just signed Savo, Draper and Southgate. We lost but were so much better than them that I knew we were going back to the top of English Football
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How this referee is regarded as a being the best referee in the Premier is beyond me .After his error against Sheffield United this was his chance to put things right .We all know if that was Liverpool or United awarded that pen no way is it over turned VAR is turning me off the game ,it has reached the point where when you either score or are awarded a penalty you just sit there expecting the worst and cannot get excited
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Lamptey is a bit like wolves’ Traore.
All fart and no shit.
I think Lamptey looks a cracking player. That’s also not true about Traore.
Agree
He is superb. Moves the ball up the pitch at pace. I wish we could buy him...
We already have someone who runs really well, but has no end product.
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We should not be hanging on for a penalty decision against Brighton, there was an awful lot wrong with that performance.
We had to score one of the many chances in the first half and we need to take a good look at replacing Mings.
True but lets not forget the chances Brighton had in the first half. Fine lines etc but we were crap and only have ourselves to blame. Losing Barkley is bad enough, replacing him with Traore is another, especially when we had Conor on the bench who was the more natural replacement. Maybe Smith doesn't know but Conor is bloody useful supporting the attack and as Brighton packed their box it was probably going to take a shot from outside the box to beat them. But no, Dean decides to play to their defensive strengths.
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It is a contact sport, contact is not necessarily a foul.
I know the laws of the game and can see why it was not given.
The fact that lots of decisions are wrong is irrelevant, once it was given then based on the clear and obvious it should have stood.
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I’m still feeling really pissed off still
really really pissed of actually
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I'm with Andy, Lamptey has the raw pace to become a good player but he wasn't any real threat today, used his pace to get away but no end product. With 7-8 chances to do somethnig the only times he found a Brighton player after a break were with 2 fairly simple passes into Welbeck, one that we had covered pretty well and the other was 50 yards from goal and we got over and tackled him.
On top of that he made 3 very clumsy tackles that could all have been yellow cards and can't have any complaints about his red.
I'm in no way saying he's shit just that he's 2-3 years away from being the player some are claiming him to be.
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I'm with Andy, Lamptey has the raw pace to become a good player but he wasn't any real threat today, used his pace to get away but no end product. With 7-8 chances to do somethnig the only times he found a Brighton player after a break were with 2 fairly simple passes into Welbeck, one that we had covered pretty well and the other was 50 yards from goal and we got over and tackled him.
On top of that he made 3 very clumsy tackles that could all have been yellow cards and can't have any complaints about his red.
I'm in no way saying he's shit just that he's 2-3 years away from being the player some are claiming him to be.
No threat ha ha
What are you on about he ran us ragged ffs
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Do I think it was a penalty? No.
Was it a penalty? Absolutely.
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It is a contact sport, contact is not necessarily a foul.
I know the laws of the game and can see why it was not given.
The fact that lots of decisions are wrong is irrelevant, once it was given then based on the clear and obvious it should have stood.
I said illegal contact and I'm not sure you do know the laws of the game because you were babbling on about impeding the player being what matters.
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If it had been Man Utd or Liverpool that peno would have been given. Now I've had time to calm down, I think the ref actually made the right decision - You'd be mightily annoyed if it went against you.
Regarding the result - Too many players not at the races today (and wrong subs made imo).
- Grealish drifted in and out (and that ridiculous backheel in our own box could have cost us a lot more!)
- McGinn was dreadful. Started to wonder if he thought he was still playing for Scotland in that first half especially. Made more passes to blue shirts than our own!
- Mings was woeful. At fault for Welbeck's goal (but Targett could share some of that blame)
- Smith subbing Doug instead of McGinn (can only be down to travel fatigue, but even so, Doug was having far more of an affect on the game than McGinn).
- Ollie hopefully still finding his feet. Goes from world beating to Samatta mk2 from game to game. Seems to step up against the big boys and look a shadow of that player against teams like Brighton and Leeds
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We seem to be far too open at home. We played some good stuff but it could easily have been 3-3 at half time. I’d prefer a bit of solidity and pragmatism at times.
To be the wrong side of a striker on the half way line is pretty woeful.
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Lamptey was terrifying until he got level with the area, when he didn't offer much. But he created enough chaos in us today to have us all over the shop, so from the point of view that they won because of two defensive balls-ups, he did his job.
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well i think if Brighton put Lamptey up for sale tomorrow with a price 5 times what they paid Chelsea, I don't think they'd be short of takers
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well i think if Brighton put Lamptey up for sale tomorrow with a price 5 times what they paid Chelsea, I don't think they'd be short of takers
What did they pay
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Guaranteed we'd lose today just because everyone expected us to win. Fuck off world.
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well i think if Brighton put Lamptey up for sale tomorrow with a price 5 times what they paid Chelsea, I don't think they'd be short of takers
What did they pay
3m
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If it’s at all possible forget the penalty for a minute the truth is that they were better than us when they didn’t have the ball than we were.
Compact at the back they gave us very little space whereas we left huge gaps all over villa park.
Defensively we are a mess and without the ball we do not close down in midfield.
The other issues with midfield is that they all tuck inside leaving both full backs exposed particularly if opponents have pace wide.
This is nine goals conceded in three home games in actual fact this is relegation form.
These defensive frailties have to be rectified else the good results we have had will all be wasted.
In terms of individual performances I thought Trez played well but oh dear that finishing and McGinn and Mings are badly out of form.
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I’m still feeling really pissed off still
really really pissed of actually
Me too
How the hell can we beat Liverpool, Leicester and Arsenal 11-2 and then lose the last 3 at home including to Brighton. Bloody Brighton who had never won at VP before. Only saw the second half but we looked clueless going forward all huff and no quality end product.
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- Ollie hopefully still finding his feet. Goes from world beating to Samatta mk2 from game to game. Seems to step up against the big boys and look a shadow of that player against teams like Brighton and Leeds
I sometimes think with lower league strikers in top division sides that they struggle against limited defences instead of the world class ones. Your Champions League defenders rely on tactics and natural talent, whereas your Leeds and Southampton back fours have to work hard and use every trick in the book. Today seemed a good example of that.
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well i think if Brighton put Lamptey up for sale tomorrow with a price 5 times what they paid Chelsea, I don't think they'd be short of takers
What did they pay
3m
Wow
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I’m still feeling really pissed off still
really really pissed of actually
Me too
How the hell can we beat Liverpool, Leicester and Arsenal 11-2 and then lose the last 3 at home including to Brighton. Bloody Brighton who had never won at VP before. Only saw the second half but we looked clueless going forward all huff and no quality end product.
Yes that’s it - it just felt like after they scored the second we weren’t going to claw it back.
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Thought we deserved a draw, played some good stuff particularly in the first half, but Mings' form is getting more concerning. Also McGinn made too many sloppy passes, one particularly could have cost us. Big blow losing Ross hopefully it's not too bad an injury.
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We fizzled out after the substitutions.
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It’s a fucked in football world where the Man U penalty last season that Bruno Fernandez “won” IS a penalty, and yet that one today isn’t.
Absolute cast iron guarantee if that had happened to Man C, Liverpool etc, that would have been given.
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I go along with the "all huff and no quality end product" opinions. Yeah, it looked like a siege for a long while, but we were trying to kick in a sturdy wooden door with our flip-flops on.
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We’re not losing like we used to lose though
where we just bent over pitifully and got rammed
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As others have said Mings was very poor today and he needs to improve quickly.
Even his pointing was shite.
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I go along with the "all huff and no quality end product" opinions. Yeah, it looked like a siege for a long while, but we were trying to kick in a sturdy wooden door with our flip-flops on.
Lets not forget that they had 5 centre halves on the pitch at the end (and 4 for the entire 2nd half). Most teams outside of the top 4-5 struggle against teams that play so defensively, especially at home where they feel the need to commit players forward and go for the win. Yes we made defensive errors but a big part of why we did is because they were so deep (first goal, for example, only Maupay and Welbeck were more than about 15-20m from their box when they broke and because we want to press high that drew our defence too far forward.
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I go along with the "all huff and no quality end product" opinions. Yeah, it looked like a siege for a long while, but we were trying to kick in a sturdy wooden door with our flip-flops on.
Lets not forget that they had 5 centre halves on the pitch at the end (and 4 for the entire 2nd half). Most teams outside of the top 4-5 struggle against teams that play so defensively, especially at home where they feel the need to commit players forward and go for the win. Yes we made defensive errors but a big part of why we did is because they were so deep (first goal, for example, only Maupay and Welbeck were more than about 15-20m from their box when they broke and because we want to press high that drew our defence too far forward.
Yes but equally we kind of played into their hands by pressing so high - that’s what they wanted and the only way they could carry a threat. We need to be better at adapting to the opposition at times.
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It was an exciting game box to box until Brighton got their 2nd
Villa seem to get these horrible international break hangovers that destroy our upward momentum. Mings was ragged today, Grealish did some weird things like the back heel in his own 6 yard box and McGinn was guilty of several wayward passes.
I was suprised that Smith brought Traore on when Barkley limped off. I was expecting Hourihane. It was quite telling Smith took him off around 70 mins.
Trez had enough chances to win the game on his own. He's frustrating but he keeps showing up, trying stuff and having shots. He's scored some big goals for us sneaking in at the back post. In contrast Traore always took the easy square ball option in the first half and played like Ali Dia in the 2nd so much so Deano subbed the sub! Brave management but was he really the right replacement for Barkley after 5mins?
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I go along with the "all huff and no quality end product" opinions. Yeah, it looked like a siege for a long while, but we were trying to kick in a sturdy wooden door with our flip-flops on.
Yep. Ryan hardly had a shot to save last 35 mins. All a bit predictable. Seems to be a pattern forming that we only win when aren’t expected to and vice Versa.
I also wish Jack would Sometimes move the ball / lay it off quicker
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We had more than enough chances to get something from the game. It’s certainly not a game we should have lost. It does highlight though that we are a team in transition. That at times we look outstanding especially when playing with lower expectations as we probably did vs Liverpool or Arsenal than when the onus is on us to attack. We don’t yet have the complete skill set to be a top 6 side. Heck only a few months ago we were to be a PL side finishing 17th. Most of us had expectations that this season would be a massive success finishing mid table. Which I still think we will comfortably. But as disappointing as the loss is it shows that there are just going to be days like this where we won’t take our chances and we will get punished at this level for being who we are. We need better players and this season is a bridge to that. We’ve made great strides so far with the players we do have.
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We had more than enough chances to get something from the game. It’s certainly not a game we should have lost. It does highlight though that we are a team in transition. That at times we look outstanding especially when playing with lower expectations as we probably did vs Liverpool or Arsenal than when the onus is on us to attack. We don’t yet have the complete skill set to be a top 6 side. Heck only a few months ago we were to be a PL side finishing 17th. Most of us had expectations that this season would be a massive success finishing mid table. Which I still think we will comfortably. But as disappointing as the loss is it shows that there are just going to be days like this where we won’t take our chances and we will get punished at this level for being who we are. We need better players and this season is a bridge to that. We’ve made great strides so far with the players we do have.
True. We are 3/4 players from being a top side. Like to see a couple of decent signings in January.
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yes they were defending for their lives at the end
But I don't think Brighton are a defensive minded side
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Comes to something when you've got fecking Danny Wellbeck as your opposition goalscoring nemesis. At least a Kane or a salah is respectable.
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yes they were defending for their lives at the end
But I don't think Brighton are a defensive minded side
Maybe not but today they played the same 3 centre half and 2 defensive midfielder shape that Southgate is insisting on.
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Well that’s my weekend fooked. Disappointed. Poor performance defensively cost us
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yes they were defending for their lives at the end
But I don't think Brighton are a defensive minded side
Maybe not but today they played the same 3 centre half and 2 defensive midfielder shape that Southgate is insisting on.
I see teams like Newcastle, Sheffield Utd Burnley as being defensive minded teams
when I've seen Brighton they look a lot more progressive than that to me
I knew they would be a handful today
whereas when we play those teams mentioned I think it's a matter of breaking them down
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I’m so sick of Mings. Loses his attacker or does something stupid in every single game. He’s never going to get any better, unlike Konsa who has improved massively. Southgate has got the wrong Villa defender in the squad.
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A worrying stat is that in our five home games we have conceded eleven goals that equates to forty two for the season .The highest number of goals conceded last season by any of the relegated teams was thirty seven .
I know we haven’t has yet concede away from home but we’ve only played three.
This is concerning.
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First half could have ended 3-3 (Emi playing well and Trez being wasteful). McGinn was awful before the break.
2nd half was poor with Mings playing badly and also Jack the last 20-25 minutes (what was that backheel all about in the 6 yard box?).
It was a definite pen, though Trez made the most of it. VAR and refs are sh-t (nothing new there), but combined the game of football is being ruined. Disappointing that Barkley suffered an injury after only 2 unchallenged minutes. I don't know much about him from other clubs, but is he injury prone? His substitution obviously upset the balance of the team, though Traore coming on 1st centrally and then wide right was a good shout by Dean. Even moving Jack into the centre was good as Trez coped better with tracking Lamptey. Ollie was well marked by their defence today. I can understand the substitutions of Traore and Luiz after their international journeys. I'm sure Dean was banking on doing these subs with Villa in a more favourable position. Disappointed obviously, but onto the next game.
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With a nod to a recent viral video I saw...
Oliver is a wanker,
he wears a wankers hat.
Gave Villa a stonewall peno,
then changed his mind 'cause he's a twat !
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All our defeats have come with the opposition scoring worldies, that surely can't continue.
There was a goal against Spurs (pretty sure actually that it was Brighton that scored it) were by there was the most blatant foul in the build up, the ref went over to the VAR screen and stuck with his decision of it not being a foul because the tackler brushed the ball before going through his man. It was the worst decision I had seen since VAR came in and he was universally criticised for it. That March brushed the ball today was completely irrelevant, it was a stonewall penalty. I also thought it was odd that they only showed Oliver 1 slow motion angle on the VAR screen.
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That first goal conceded today set the tone, and was so amateurish. Mings looked to be in a comfort zone he was in when playing for England against Ireland and Iceland in last week or two, where he and Harry Maguire seemed to enjoy full rein to cavort around in midfield doing nothing in particular very well, but complacent in the knowledge that nothing much could go wrong regardless, should they find themselves out of position. I don't think Danny Welbeck will have scored too many goals in his career, running unmolested from within his own half and leaving a centre back in his wake. On the evidence going back to Wolves away, round about this time last year, Smith and Terry might wish to give serious thought to leaving Mings out of the starting XI, on a return from an international break.
I can't get too worked about the penalty in all honestly, given the poor performance, though an equalizer would have given me the 2-2 I'd forecast on the Skybet 6.
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Guaranteed we'd lose today just because everyone expected us to win. Fuck off world.
This made me laugh. Thank you.
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We are the premier league version of dean’s brentford. Great when it clicks, but only have one way of playing.
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We are the premier league version of dean’s brentford. Great when it clicks, but only have one way of playing.
It’s not a bad way though is it
I’d still take it over the shit served up over the last 10 years
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I agree. Its a joy to watch at times, which is why im not too down about losing. We’ll beat west ham.
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Plenty of chances for both sides but thought three of our key players looked tired, SJM, Jack and Mings. Not sure smith got it right with the Barkley injury as don’t see Traore as a number 8. Anyway, can’t argue with the start we’ve had but just a bit disappointing who we have lost to.
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Yes it was a good game. Funny when someone on the match thread said Trez needs a punch in the face. Good job we don’t manage them.
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Crystal Palace and now this.
That's twice a referee has misapplied the rules.
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Crystal Palace and now this.
That's twice a referee has misapplied the rules.
....and look at the first reaction of March. He knows it’s a pen.
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thought Watkins looked poor today. not aggressive enough, falling over and too often out on the wing. we had so many corners, free kicks and crosses with no end product.
very frustrating match to watch but not too despondent as we still look very dangerous and with youngest team in the league we're still learning
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All our international players looked leggy and tired. That tells its own story with all these breaks in the season. For some reason, it's gone to 3 matches in a few days instead of 2. Ludicrous. Annoying that some teams (Wolves) get to play on Monday night, giving 2 extra days recovery time. It didn't help that Barkley, who wasn’t involved with England, got injured so early as well. A bad day at the office!
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I'm just really enjoying watching us this season, even the 3 losses we've had long periods were we look very good.
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Yes it was a good game. Funny when someone on the match thread said Trez needs a punch in the face. Good job we don’t manage them.
I don’t think he meant it in the literal sense mate
it was the match thread
I called every player a wanking twat shouting at the telly like a loon during that game
but I love them all really
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Get your season back on track week again. This weeks winners Brighton.
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I thought it was a good game as well, although very frustrating for us, but for a neutral it was very entertaining. It’s could easily have been 3-3 at half time.
I love Trez, god knows what wrong with his finishing this season though! He’s always had that knack of being in the right place and last season he would have scored them. His all round game though is so much better, just needs to start taking his chances.
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Angry about the penalty decision we had chances to score but it wasn't to be for us we need to bounce back next week.
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thought Watkins looked poor today. not aggressive enough, falling over and too often out on the wing. we had so many corners, free kicks and crosses with no end product.
Ollie didn't have focus today. Not sure why may be because he was trying too hard to do too many things. More coaching and more learning will cure that.
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I think that was Jacks poorest game for us since lockdown, nothing really seemed to work for him today, dispossessed on a few occasions and some uncharacteristic sloppy passes.
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Yes it was a good game. Funny when someone on the match thread said Trez needs a punch in the face. Good job we don’t manage them.
I don’t think he meant it in the literal sense mate
it was the match thread
I called every player a wanking twat shouting at the telly like a loon during that game
but I love them all really
That’s why I said it was funny. I was thinking the exact same.
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Put me in a right bloody mood this result has. We could see it coming, players back knackered from Internationals, defending all over the place. Injury to Barkley. Really pissed me off it has. Brighton plastic stadium, boring, Maupay wankers.
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Today was probably the most Villaest thing ever. We’ve been here before on a number of levels.
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Yes it was a good game. Funny when someone on the match thread said Trez needs a punch in the face. Good job we don’t manage them.
I don’t think he meant it in the literal sense mate
it was the match thread
I called every player a wanking twat shouting at the telly like a loon during that game
but I love them all really
That’s why I said it was funny. I was thinking the exact same.
Fair enough mate
I’m working my way through one of those cheap 3ltr wine box things from Lidl
So my senses are dulled somewhat
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I await the day when some Terry Hurlock styled animal goes through Maupay, the niggly little pussy.
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I’m so sick of Mings. Loses his attacker or does something stupid in every single game. He’s never going to get any better, unlike Konsa who has improved massively. Southgate has got the wrong Villa defender in the squad.
You are always expecting a fuck up
Centre halfs can be the most exposed players, often caught out when moving forward but, Tyrone worries me
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Yes it was a good game. Funny when someone on the match thread said Trez needs a punch in the face. Good job we don’t manage them.
I don’t think he meant it in the literal sense mate
it was the match thread
I called every player a wanking twat shouting at the telly like a loon during that game
but I love them all really
That’s why I said it was funny. I was thinking the exact same.
Fair enough mate
I’m working my way through one of those cheap 3ltr wine box things from Lidl
So my senses are dulled somewhat
I’m working my way through a 10 day Covid positive isolation, so mine are too pal. Enjoy the wine, I will try some now as I can’t taste my beer.
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https://www.skysports.com/football/a-villa-vs-brighton/report/428917
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Fair play too Dean not using the pen as an excuse, he talked well (as he usually does) about what we did wrong, he doesn't half name drop players individual errors though.
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Get well soon. My beer had bad taste today cos of Villa.
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Get well soon. My beer had bad taste today cos of Villa.
Cheers, feel fine on day 10 hence the alcohol.
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I can only conclude that the technology behind VAR is great.
The trouble is that the referees are fucking morons.
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Just catching up. It's a pen. No debate unless your that ginger tosser Steve Sidwell. Looking forward to watching motd where he will get shown up for the clueless knobhead he is.Not at our best obviously but a point has been stolen from us by a very weak referee who didn't have the balls to stick with his original and correct decision.
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A worrying stat is that in our five home games we have conceded eleven goals that equates to forty two for the season .The highest number of goals conceded last season by any of the relegated teams was thirty seven .
I know we haven’t has yet concede away from home but we’ve only played three.
This is concerning.
It’s November, so it doesn’t equate to relegation form, because those games haven’t been played and all manner of things can influence our home form for the rest of the season. In addition, on your earlier point, the defence hasn’t been great for the three games we’ve lost, however for the 5 games we’ve won, we’ve conceded 2 goals and the defence has looked excellent. If you’d talked about winning the league after winning the first 4 games it would of made as little sense as talking about relegation form now
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It looked a penalty to me.
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I don’t know if I’m fully abreast of the latest rules, but it didn’t look like a penalty to me. I don’t know what the defender is supposed to do. He got a touch on the ball and Trezeguet was Waiting to be hit.
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It looked a penalty to me.
I would agree had Trezeguet not thrown himself in the air like he'd been shot. If it was against us, I would say it was soft as shit, although once given, it shouldn't have been overturned.
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Another defeat where I didn't think we actually played that badly. Better finishing and we would have won it. I know people don't like using tiredness as an excuse (and it was nice to have a 3pm game) but we would have benefited from playing Monday. Still, it's how we bounce back again but we're doing ok.
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Re pen didn't think it was a clear and obvious error, should not gave been overturned, but I hate diving and that was a shocker from Trez, needs to cut that out of his game, hopefully the management will tell him so.
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It looked a penalty to me.
I would agree had Trezeguet not thrown himself in the air like he'd been shot. If it was against us, I would say it was soft as shit, although once given, it shouldn't have been overturned.
Yes, it was rather theatrical. Needs to cut that sort of shit out.
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Without the dive it might not have gone to VAR, it certainly didn’t help matters.
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I note that diving now appears to be a problem in the game, well if it isn't a favoured club or player.
Tez dived, Jack dives all the time. Others are clever, or entitled to go down under the challenge.
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Tbf I agree with that, it was a pen all day but he went down in such a stupid dramatic manner that it probably caused doubts.
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Jack dives all the time.
No he doesn't
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I note that diving now appears to be a problem in the game, well if it isn't a favoured club or player.
Tez dived, Jack dives all the time. Others are clever, or entitled to go down under the challenge.
No he does not.
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Jack dives all the time.
No he doesn't
I said that without even typing.
I actually don’t think he dives as much as some say, he gets kicked to shit to be fair to him.
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What’s going on with the quotes? Something strange happening. For the record I would never say Jack dives all the time.
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Jack, like almost every professional player in Europe, goes down on contact, that happens because if you don't go down you don't get decisions. My favourite example of why players have to go down (and every single coach/manager in the country will encourage it) is Helenius against Tottenham, he stayed up and got a shot away (when his shorts were round his knees) so we didn't get one of the most obvious penalties in the history of the sport. If refs can't use their common sense to give free kicks without players falling to the floor then players are going to fall to the floor.
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I think I've been misunderstood here.
I don't believe that Jack dives all the time, my point was the way the media apply different rules to different players.
Trez was criticised on MOTD for diving a few minutes ago, I've seen Salah react in precisely the same manner but without the same criticism.
That was my point.
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Trez dives, Salah's clever. That's the Liverpool effect.
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Having watched motd I've changed my opinion slightly. I still think it's a pen but the theatrics by Trez has given the ref room for doubt once he was told to have a look.Having said that there's no way that was a clear and obvious error. As such VAR should not have got involved. Our defence lost their shape at times and they punished us. Welbeck's goal was particularly bad. He is not known for his speed so for him to pick up the ball 10 yards into our half and run unchallenged for an 8 yard tap in is pretty alarming. All in all a draw would of probably been a fair result but it was their day. There was some sluggishness from the international break which is hopefully out of our system now. Onward to West Ham. My moneys on a bounce back victory for the Villa boys.
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Jack, like almost every professional player in Europe, goes down on contact, that happens because if you don't go down you don't get decisions. My favourite example of why players have to go down (and every single coach/manager in the country will encourage it) is Helenius against Tottenham, he stayed up and got a shot away (when his shorts were round his knees) so we didn't get one of the most obvious penalties in the history of the sport. If refs can't use their common sense to give free kicks without players falling to the floor then players are going to fall to the floor.
That's a very good point.
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I reckon the ref had a wobble because he didn't want to be seen as doubly penalising Brighton afetr the red card, which was bit soft it has to be said.
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I don't think it's sluggishness, having watched it the highlights and looked back at a few things from the game I think the problem is the lack of preparation. We looked like players who had been off playing all different styles and shapes and came back to 1 training session before the match. For example was Mings positioning for the first influenced by a week and half of training on the left of a 3? Was McGinn playing a little further forward than he did against Arsenal because that's the role he plays for Scotland?
I don't know either way but 3 international games in a row leaving the club with 1-2 days with players before a league match feels fucking shit, not because of fatigue but because of how they train. I don't have a good answer for how to change it but 3 international windows for a total of 8 games in just over 2 months is fucking ridiculous.
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As a couple of others have already stated, if Oliver didn't originally give the pen but then VAR had intervened and asked him to look at it, he would've 100% then given it. What a fucked up system.
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I don't think it's sluggishness, having watched it the highlights and looked back at a few things from the game I think the problem is the lack of preparation. We looked like players who had been off playing all different styles and shapes and came back to 1 training session before the match. For example was Mings positioning for the first influenced by a week and half of training on the left of a 3? Was McGinn playing a little further forward than he did against Arsenal because that's the role he plays for Scotland?
I don't know either way but 3 international games in a row leaving the club with 1-2 days with players before a league match feels fucking shit, not because of fatigue but because of how they train. I don't have a good answer for how to change it but 3 international windows for a total of 8 games in just over 2 months is fucking ridiculous.
Southgate chucking his weight behond the 5 subs rule was ridiculous. Just stick to two games per international window, rather than three if you're that concerned.
I'm not sure that it had any real effect though, we've just got to get to the point where we can maintain standards from agme to game. As good as the games against Liverpool and Arsenal etc have been, our home defensive record is atrocious and we've got the joint worst record with Newcastle. That has to change.
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I don't think it's sluggishness, having watched it the highlights and looked back at a few things from the game I think the problem is the lack of preparation. We looked like players who had been off playing all different styles and shapes and came back to 1 training session before the match. For example was Mings positioning for the first influenced by a week and half of training on the left of a 3? Was McGinn playing a little further forward than he did against Arsenal because that's the role he plays for Scotland?
I don't know either way but 3 international games in a row leaving the club with 1-2 days with players before a league match feels fucking shit, not because of fatigue but because of how they train. I don't have a good answer for how to change it but 3 international windows for a total of 8 games in just over 2 months is fucking ridiculous.
Southgate chucking his weight behond the 5 subs rule was ridiculous. Just stick to two games per international window, rather than three if you're that concerned.
I'm not sure that it had any real effect though, we've just got to get to the point where we can maintain standards from agme to game. As good as the games against Liverpool and Arsenal etc have been, our home defensive record is atrocious and we've got the joint worst record with Newcastle. That has to change.
Our home record is absolutely a concern I just think we need to look at why and, for me, today was very different to the Leeds and Southampton games. I think the coaches and players all know how bad the first goal was but I'm more concerned about the 2nd because I think that's a tactical weakness that we've had for a while, when the ball gets around the box our fullbacks get very narrow even if the winger isn't back helping out which leaves huge gaps for players to take their time to pick a cross or shot, we need to be better and closing that space or we're going to continue to get done by cross field passes.
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Our shape was all over the place for that goal, not sure if they were all a little over confident, or zealous and trying for an early onslaught like against Arsenal. I can’t believe it was tactical to be that far up.
Another day and we’d have scored a goal or two more. We were also lucky not to give away more as well. Mings had an off day for sure.
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I don't think it's sluggishness, having watched it the highlights and looked back at a few things from the game I think the problem is the lack of preparation. We looked like players who had been off playing all different styles and shapes and came back to 1 training session before the match. For example was Mings positioning for the first influenced by a week and half of training on the left of a 3? Was McGinn playing a little further forward than he did against Arsenal because that's the role he plays for Scotland?
I don't know either way but 3 international games in a row leaving the club with 1-2 days with players before a league match feels fucking shit, not because of fatigue but because of how they train. I don't have a good answer for how to change it but 3 international windows for a total of 8 games in just over 2 months is fucking ridiculous.
Will be the same in March and first one next season apparently.
Hopefully by next September we'll at least have a few squad options we can rotate in post international games to replace the regular 11.
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Our shape was all over the place for that goal, not sure if they were all a little over confident, or zealous and trying for an early onslaught like against Arsenal. I can’t believe it was tactical to be that far up.
Another day and we’d have scored a goal or two more. We were also lucky not to give away more as well. Mings had an off day for sure.
Up until then we'd been winning the ball pretty high up the field and were dominating territory if not really creating much, I think we just got sucked in a bit too much thinking we could really pressure them into their own 3rd. I suspect we also thought we had enough pace to cover their front 2 if they broke in behind.
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Think next home game we just need to sit back a bit and if it's 0-0 after an hour so be it. Just checked and it's Newcastle so that will probably happen even if we're on the front foot.
We're doing so much chasing at home currently having to come from behind and it's not something we're good at all. I'd be really interesting in how many games in last 3-4 season we've actually come from behind to win, we weren't great at it in the championship under Bruce and DS.
Thought the second was just a very good finish. We are being a bit punished for that currently as March, Ings and Bamford have all pinged shots right into the top corner at key points in the game and that's not something that even happens to the worst team in the league every other game, we've had it 3 times in 4 games.
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Lack of preparation, jaded, Barkley going off, I dunno, but all over the pitch we lacked that sharpness and incision in our play we've displayed so often this season. I'm not going to question the effort or commitment, and I thought that on the whole we played some good stuff. An exciting game, plenty of end to end stuff, a shame that all that was needed for 3 points was one slightly better bit of play at either end of the pitch.
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Over the next two transfer windows, I hope we start looking at upgrades for the following first team starters:
Trez, Mings, Targett
All three of whom are just too inconsistent in their positions, and have as many bad games as they do good. On top of getting another foward in. Watkins wasn't at it today, but we had nobody to replace him for the last 20 mins or whatever.
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Think next home game we just need to sit back a bit and if it's 0-0 after an hour so be it. Just checked and it's Newcastle so that will probably happen even if we're on the front foot.
We're doing so much chasing at home currently having to come from behind and it's not something we're good at all. I'd be really interesting in how many games in last 3-4 season we've actually come from behind to win, we weren't great at it in the championship under Bruce and DS.
Thought the second was just a very good finish. We are being a bit punished for that currently as March, Ings and Bamford have all pinged shots right into the top corner at key points in the game and that's not something that even happens to the worst team in the league every other game, we've had it 3 times in 4 games.
I'd add Ward-Prouse to that list, too. If he hit all his free kicks that well, I'm sure they wouldn't be the only ones he's scored with so far this season.
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Absolutely that, no other team will conceed the worldies we have in consecutive games, that is a freak happening.
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I've just seen that March has now scored 2 in 6 games. Prior to those 6 games, he'd scored 2 in 92 games. Ffs.
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We're a team capable of banging in 11 and getting 9 points against the likes of Liverpool, Leicester and Arsenal.
We're also capable of giving up 9 and getting 0 points against the likes of Southampton, Leeds and Brighton.
This is a crucial point, and it should be addressed.
The top teams are happy to let us play as they think they will win an open game. Lesser sides work on closing us down and targeting our weaknesses. Lamptey had a field day attacking Targett, who had little cover. It brought back bad memories of the opposition targeting Bennett.
I am somewhat perplexed about posters and pundits talking about home and away form in current circumstances. Maybe we should have let the grass grow longer.
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Over the next two transfer windows, I hope we start looking at upgrades for the following first team starters:
Trez, Mings, Targett
All three of whom are just too inconsistent in their positions, and have as many bad games as they do good. On top of getting another foward in. Watkins wasn't at it today, but we had nobody to replace him for the last 20 mins or whatever.
100% agree, Risso.
I'd add McGinn to that list, also. Another that just isn't consistent enough for me. Maybe he isn't fully fit, but he was sloppy and lazy yesterday. Luiz wasn't much better.
I want urgency and tenacity from a midfield. Hourihane should have been busting a gut when he came on, but I didn't notice him really.
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All in all, it was a decent match, and we are better than we were last season.
I've revised my finishing position prediction from 17th to 13th. West Ham and the Geordies next, and a bit of dinosaur hunting.
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Over the next two transfer windows, I hope we start looking at upgrades for the following first team starters:
Trez, Mings, Targett
All three of whom are just too inconsistent in their positions, and have as many bad games as they do good. On top of getting another foward in. Watkins wasn't at it today, but we had nobody to replace him for the last 20 mins or whatever.
100% agree, Risso.
I'd add McGinn to that list, also. Another that just isn't consistent enough for me. Maybe he isn't fully fit, but he was sloppy and lazy yesterday. Luiz wasn't much better.
I want urgency and tenacity from a midfield. Hourihane should have been busting a gut when he came on, but I didn't notice him really.
Whilst I agree we should always be looking to improve, the current issues are not so much about player ability. They are about discipline and leadership. Yesterday, Cash and Luiz were both culpable for the goals, and Mings was implicated in both; not because they're crap but because they were not concentrating and positioning was poor.
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We could do with some more depth. McGinn, Luiz and Mings were very poor yesterday. These are the guys that were involved in internationals, so it's not that surprising is it?
Brighton's 11 were all at home I think so they had two weeks to work on us.
We don't have any options... Barkley goes off and our 12th man is on and we have nothing on the bench.
I don't think we need to be drawing any real conclusions, McGinn and Luiz haven't been at their best yet this season but it'll come. We're clearly a win 1 and lose 1 side this season... not ideal but we've kicked on a lot and it's all part of the process. We're on for >50 points, which could see us in the 12th-8th range, which would be a very good return considering where we were at the restart.
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I'll be interested to see whether this is reviewed by Refwatch on Sky as it is very clear from Oliver that he ignored the could because March had "got" the ball. Truth is Trez GOT the ball and in turning back inside the ball grazed March's outstretched leg before his studs crashed into Trez's shins. With forward momentum a kick there will cause you to draw your legs up to avoid serious injury although I would have to agree that it didn't look great.
Truth is though we were poor. Barkley's injury was a blow but it was the first minute and shouldn't have impacted us. The "penalty" gives Dean the excuse that we should have had a draw but I'm not sure we deserved that despite appearing to be on top. Questions about his game management remain and yesterday did nothing to change that.
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I still think we need a bit of experience. In the Champo we were able to add players like Whelan, Jedinak and Terry who helped us see games out. We could do with a bit of that now.
Not sure who or who's available but in Jan if we could get someone at CM or CB to come in and bolster the squad. The problem is the higher up you get the harder it is to get these players in.
Mings is still a relatively inexperienced CB and he's alongside a very young defence. Upgrades to Engels, Taylor, Nakamba and Davis in this squad of a similar level to the players we acquired in the Summer and we'll be in a much better position to push on.
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Trez could have stayed on his feet and tried to play the ball, he was looking for the penalty, he dived, the touch on his leg did not impede Trez from playing the ball.
Yes we have seen them given for a lot less but I do not think it was a penalty.
Tend to agree with this. If an opposition player were to do the same you’d be furious. Gutted it wasn’t given but it was one of those decisions that really could have gone either way, today it didn’t go in our way.
Disagree - if one of our players did that we’d be calling them all of the idiots under the sun.
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We could do with some more depth. McGinn, Luiz and Mings were very poor yesterday. These are the guys that were involved in internationals, so it's not that surprising is it?
Brighton's 11 were all at home I think so they had two weeks to work on us.
We don't have any options... Barkley goes off and our 12th man is on and we have nothing on the bench.
I don't think we need to be drawing any real conclusions, McGinn and Luiz haven't been at their best yet this season but it'll come. We're clearly a win 1 and lose 1 side this season... not ideal but we've kicked on a lot and it's all part of the process. We're on for >50 points, which could see us in the 12th-8th range, which would be a very good return considering where we were at the restart.
It’s important to remember this.
That a team without internationals not only returns less jaded, but have had a solid 2 weeks AS A TEAM to prepare for the fixture.
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Over the next two transfer windows, I hope we start looking at upgrades for the following first team starters:
Trez, Mings, Targett
All three of whom are just too inconsistent in their positions, and have as many bad games as they do good. On top of getting another foward in. Watkins wasn't at it today, but we had nobody to replace him for the last 20 mins or whatever.
100% agree, Risso.
I'd add McGinn to that list, also. Another that just isn't consistent enough for me. Maybe he isn't fully fit, but he was sloppy and lazy yesterday. Luiz wasn't much better.
I want urgency and tenacity from a midfield. Hourihane should have been busting a gut when he came on, but I didn't notice him really.
I’d agree about Conor mate, but I do wonder if he’s pretty deflated at the moment. Dropped after scoring and assisting against Fulham and not played a minute until yesterday.
I felt he’d come on once Ross was injured but it wasn’t to be. Then he gets 15 minutes at the end. I know he’s a professional and all that, but I think he feels he’s dropped right down the pecking order.
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We could do with some more depth. McGinn, Luiz and Mings were very poor yesterday. These are the guys that were involved in internationals, so it's not that surprising is it?
Brighton's 11 were all at home I think so they had two weeks to work on us.
We don't have any options... Barkley goes off and our 12th man is on and we have nothing on the bench.
I don't think we need to be drawing any real conclusions, McGinn and Luiz haven't been at their best yet this season but it'll come. We're clearly a win 1 and lose 1 side this season... not ideal but we've kicked on a lot and it's all part of the process. We're on for >50 points, which could see us in the 12th-8th range, which would be a very good return considering where we were at the restart.
Spot on post this.
We have a tendency to write off players as crap after one or two poor games, look back a few weeks ago after Leeds and Southampton and similar things were being said about Barklay. Mings does have the odd shocker but he also has some very good games, Arsenal and Leicester two examples but there are more. Again McGinn has some stinkers like yesterday but also some potential MOM performances like Arsenal. It’s the consistency that only the sides pushing for the title maintain, but we look a very exciting side, sometimes too exciting, but like you say a top 10/top 8 finish is achievable with this group, which would be a 3rd season of real progress if it happens. Hopefully we get 6 points against West Ham and Newcastle before a very tough game against wolves.
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The defensive positioning for that first goal was shambolic. You don’t need coaching for that. Reminded me of the Manure goal when they broke because Mings having another one of his shockers lost the ball and chased back only to stand off the bloke. He’s just not all that I’m afraid. He’s too languid and gets caught out so many times. In terms of pointing though he’s been to the Westwood College of Fine Finger Movement.
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Thought at times were awful as much we were great. Such inconsistency is caused by such inconsistent players like Mings , SJM, Luiz, Targett, Trez. Who can be great or piss poor on a regular basis.
I actually enjoyed the game from a spectator point of view but maybe would have preferred a drab 1-0 to see us sit 2nd in the table.
We have improved but need better more consistent 7/10 minimum every game players.
Thought both the sending off and reversed pen decisions were pretty shit but nothing surprises me anymore.
Still looking forward to the next game which is a huge improvement on last 10 years
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Over the next two transfer windows, I hope we start looking at upgrades for the following first team starters:
Trez, Mings, Targett
All three of whom are just too inconsistent in their positions, and have as many bad games as they do good. On top of getting another foward in. Watkins wasn't at it today, but we had nobody to replace him for the last 20 mins or whatever.
100% agree, Risso.
I'd add McGinn to that list, also. Another that just isn't consistent enough for me. Maybe he isn't fully fit, but he was sloppy and lazy yesterday. Luiz wasn't much better.
I want urgency and tenacity from a midfield. Hourihane should have been busting a gut when he came on, but I didn't notice him really.
I’d agree about Conor mate, but I do wonder if he’s pretty deflated at the moment. Dropped after scoring and assisting against Fulham and not played a minute until yesterday.
I felt he’d come on once Ross was injured but it wasn’t to be. Then he gets 15 minutes at the end. I know he’s a professional and all that, but I think he feels he’s dropped right down the pecking order.
Regarding Hourihane, definitely, mate. I'd be deflated, too, bit I thought he was someone who thrives on setbacks? He should have been on for McGinn at half time.
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A close game basically decided by March curling a shot in with the foot he normally does everything to avoid using and Trezeguet being unable to hit the target when given two goes at it plus we were clearly stuffed by the officials on the penalty decision.
I think we’re destined to struggle following international breaks as we don’t have the squad depth to cope with the disruption it causes and that will take time, and money, to rectify.
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McGinn, Luiz, Mings, Ollie and Jack (yes even Jack for the last half hour) all have poor games by their standards, but the focus of some is the contribution of Hourihane in the last 10-15 mins. Really? And why just Conor and not El Ghazi also?
8
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I don't think it's sluggishness, having watched it the highlights and looked back at a few things from the game I think the problem is the lack of preparation. We looked like players who had been off playing all different styles and shapes and came back to 1 training session before the match. For example was Mings positioning for the first influenced by a week and half of training on the left of a 3? Was McGinn playing a little further forward than he did against Arsenal because that's the role he plays for Scotland?
I don't know either way but 3 international games in a row leaving the club with 1-2 days with players before a league match feels fucking shit, not because of fatigue but because of how they train. I don't have a good answer for how to change it but 3 international windows for a total of 8 games in just over 2 months is fucking ridiculous.
Agreed 100%.
Even Jack started playing his England role for Villa. He was left, right and center.
After a rushed preparation for the match, our hasty game plan was thrown out the window after 2 minutes with the Barkley injury.
Deano takes great pride in preparation but the odds were stacked against him for this match.
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This is absolutely the cause. Lack of preparation time. All games yesterday should have been moved to Sunday.
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I know the players love them and it’s their goal but I hate international breaks. It can stop momentum and it can influence a performance following one.
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I don't think it's sluggishness, having watched it the highlights and looked back at a few things from the game I think the problem is the lack of preparation. We looked like players who had been off playing all different styles and shapes and came back to 1 training session before the match. For example was Mings positioning for the first influenced by a week and half of training on the left of a 3? Was McGinn playing a little further forward than he did against Arsenal because that's the role he plays for Scotland?
I don't know either way but 3 international games in a row leaving the club with 1-2 days with players before a league match feels fucking shit, not because of fatigue but because of how they train. I don't have a good answer for how to change it but 3 international windows for a total of 8 games in just over 2 months is fucking ridiculous.
Agreed 100%.
Even Jack started playing his England role for Villa. He was left, right and center.
After a rushed preparation for the match, our hasty game plan was thrown out the window after 2 minutes with the Barkley injury.
Deano takes great pride in preparation but the odds were stacked against him for this match.
I thought this was most obvious with Jack. Before the break he was playing clever balls which were finding his team mates at Villa, & we watched him grow into having that understanding with England team mates, & then come back to Villa and those balls weren’t finding our players again.
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This is absolutely the cause. Lack of preparation time. All games yesterday should have been moved to Sunday.
Agreed that was the difference between last international break and this one. In October international players were released on Tuesday night and we played Leicester on Sunday evening. This time it was Wednesday and Saturday lunch time.
But the devil disguised as Television decides when games are played.
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I don't think it's sluggishness, having watched it the highlights and looked back at a few things from the game I think the problem is the lack of preparation. We looked like players who had been off playing all different styles and shapes and came back to 1 training session before the match. For example was Mings positioning for the first influenced by a week and half of training on the left of a 3? Was McGinn playing a little further forward than he did against Arsenal because that's the role he plays for Scotland?
I don't know either way but 3 international games in a row leaving the club with 1-2 days with players before a league match feels fucking shit, not because of fatigue but because of how they train. I don't have a good answer for how to change it but 3 international windows for a total of 8 games in just over 2 months is fucking ridiculous.
Agreed 100%.
Even Jack started playing his England role for Villa. He was left, right and center.
After a rushed preparation for the match, our hasty game plan was thrown out the window after 2 minutes with the Barkley injury.
Deano takes great pride in preparation but the odds were stacked against him for this match.
I thought this was most obvious with Jack. Before the break he was playing clever balls which were finding his team mates at Villa, & we watched him grow into having that understanding with England team mates, & then come back to Villa and those balls weren’t finding our players again.
Grealish was dreadful last 20 mins. Clearly running on empty and he took the wrong option nearly every time he got it. Held the ball far too much to walking pace at times.
Wouldn't be overly impressed with his antics getting the Brighton lad sent off, definitely a foul but it also wasted a lot of time finally getting him off the pitch.
Think Smith made a big error in team selection really. Likes of McGinn should have been rested with all the travel and games he has played in recent weeks. Why not start the likes of Nakamba and AEG and then bring them off for the likes of McGinn. It's all a bit MON esque with his use of the squad this season so far and it's going to count against us I think.
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Is this just part of the growing/learnng process for manager and players? When did we last have this many international players in the team most of whom played a few days earlier.
Most of the key players looked sluggish and slightly off the pace but my observation (not concern) is the bench/squad aren't yet strong enough to replace them in matches like this.
Watkins didn't spend enough time in the box and we had to many wingers on BUT we did create enough chances to win the game and maybe this is the game they'll all learn from most.
Were not there yet we're building and look miles better than last season already but you still have to do the basics properly and we didn't.
How many corners didn't clear the First man
If you know you're feeling a bit tired give yourself a few extra yards so you don't get outrun.
The squad will get better and we'll go from losing/drawing games like this to winning them.
Keep the faith.
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This is absolutely the cause. Lack of preparation time. All games yesterday should have been moved to Sunday.
I believe I am correct in this Brighton had no players away on international duty, we had loads. They got in complete prep for our game, whereas as we got one day. We’re not the elite clubs where our quality is so much better it can overcome that. And even with our mistakes we should have won. I’ll take the positives from disappointment of the defeat and expect us to be much better for West Ham away.
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To end this debate on penalty I would like to hear what Darren Woolley has to say?
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We could do with some more depth. McGinn, Luiz and Mings were very poor yesterday. These are the guys that were involved in internationals, so it's not that surprising is it?
Brighton's 11 were all at home I think so they had two weeks to work on us.
We don't have any options... Barkley goes off and our 12th man is on and we have nothing on the bench.
I don't think we need to be drawing any real conclusions, McGinn and Luiz haven't been at their best yet this season but it'll come. We're clearly a win 1 and lose 1 side this season... not ideal but we've kicked on a lot and it's all part of the process. We're on for >50 points, which could see us in the 12th-8th range, which would be a very good return considering where we were at the restart.
It’s important to remember this.
That a team without internationals not only returns less jaded, but have had a solid 2 weeks AS A TEAM to prepare for the fixture.
All of this is true but was as true before the game kicked off and not many folk on here were predicting a Brighton win.
The way we play has been established over the seven previous games this season and we picked an unchanged side.
We weren't terrible by any means. However we know that Brighton are a decent passing side and we pretty much let them play. At times at home it would just be good to be compact in midfield and hard to play through. We are conceding way too many good chances.
If that means changing our shape and personnel on a game specific basis then the manager should be able to change things to do that.
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Lamptey was away with the u21s.
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Over the next two transfer windows, I hope we start looking at upgrades for the following first team starters:
Trez, Mings, Targett
All three of whom are just too inconsistent in their positions, and have as many bad games as they do good. On top of getting another foward in. Watkins wasn't at it today, but we had nobody to replace him for the last 20 mins or whatever.
not to disagree but where exactly are is the upgrade for Mings coming from
if you had 80 mill to spend who could you bring in that’s going to be better
I’m not saying that because I think Mings is ace just that I don’t see any centre half’s about who are that much better
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I largely agree with John, the trend over the last 10 years has been to teach footballers how to defend rather than teaching defenders how to play a bit. It doesn't sound like a massive change but led to a change in how teams defend, and generally not for the better defensively but it comes with the advantage of teams being much better at playing out from the back and drawing teams forward so they can go over the top.
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I didn't realise how crap Brighton are but having just looked at the table blimey we made them look good yesterday. They had 6 points from 8.
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I didn't realise how crap Brighton are but having just looked at the table blimey we made them look good yesterday. They had 6 points from 8.
I don’t think the table actually did them justice. I’m not a massive fan of stats like XG but even a mate of mine said it’s amazing how many chances they miss. That said you have to take them and they haven’t most of the season. If you look at the same stat for our game yesterday I’m sure it will show we “should” have won. Should doesn’t ever get you points.
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You're not wrong, TV.
The total xG in the match for Aston Villa was 2.18. The total xG in the match for Brighton and Hove Albion was 1.36
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I didn't realise how crap Brighton are but having just looked at the table blimey we made them look good yesterday. They had 6 points from 8.
I don’t think the table actually did them justice. I’m not a massive fan of stats like XG but even a mate of mine said it’s amazing how many chances they miss. That said you have to take them and they haven’t most of the season. If you look at the same stat for our game yesterday I’m sure it will show we “should” have won. Should doesn’t ever get you points.
As I said on another thread that isn't true, prior to the game yesterday Brightons goals and xG were almost exactly the same, after yesterday they've probably flipped that to have scored more than expected. There position isn't massively out of what would be expected, it looks worse because the league this year is really weird with a handful of teams cut adrift and then nothing much covering the rest of the teams. Brighton will finish about 14-17 because it's where they belong.
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Haven’t see it, so can’t comment on the match. Couple of things though- Deano in his pre- match said a couple of times they were wary of Brighton, cos their results and league standing didn’t reflect their stats. Also, 3 international matches in a week was always going to take it’s toll.
Like the Leeds match, let’s forget it and move on. I got a bit of stick a few weeks back for saying something like ‘if you’re going down the O’Neill route of picking the same team every week...’ Well it looks like we are doing that. Maybe he could’ve made a few changes for Brighton??
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Haven’t see it, so can’t comment on the match. Couple of things though- Deano in his pre- match said a couple of times they were wary of Brighton, cos their results and league standing didn’t reflect their stats. Also, 3 international matches in a week was always going to take it’s toll.
Like the Leeds match, let’s forget it and move on. I got a bit of stick a few weeks back for saying something like ‘if you’re going down the O’Neill route of picking the same team every week...’ Well it looks like we are doing that. Maybe he could’ve made a few changes for Brighton??
The trouble is, the first 11 pretty much picks itself. Of the bench of Steer, Elmo, El Ghazi, Traore, Taylor, Hourihane and Nakamba, who could we have started instead? Hourihane for Barkley maybe, but then Ross wasn't away on international duty so should have been fresh as a daisy. Nakamba for Luiz maybe, but that's a serious stepdown in quality the way Luiz had been playing. I don't know where Davis was, stubbed his toe again?
I actually thought that El Ghazi looked quite enterprising when he came on, he was certainly better than Traore who was awful, so he could maybe get a run out instead of Trez next match. However hard that Trez works, his quality is dreadful, and one assist and no goals from eight games is a pretty crap return for one of our three forwards.
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It is the MON dilemma, do you weaken the team by playing the second string or risk burn out and injuries by sticking with the best X1.
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In defence of Trez, he is doing a lot more defensive work this season and the first goal at Arsenal, while not technically his, was certainly "forced in" by him. His knack for ghosting in at the back post is consistent.
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He needs to freshen it up a bit against Spam. Assuming Barkley doesn't make, try Conor in there and as much malligned as he is maybe Traore for Trez. I still don't think we have seen enough of him to make a proper assessment.
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My big disappointment about Saturday is how wasteful in front of goal we were.
Defensive errors can get highlighted but we still created enough chances to be out of sight by half time.
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Haven’t see it, so can’t comment on the match. Couple of things though- Deano in his pre- match said a couple of times they were wary of Brighton, cos their results and league standing didn’t reflect their stats. Also, 3 international matches in a week was always going to take it’s toll.
Like the Leeds match, let’s forget it and move on. I got a bit of stick a few weeks back for saying something like ‘if you’re going down the O’Neill route of picking the same team every week...’ Well it looks like we are doing that. Maybe he could’ve made a few changes for Brighton??
The trouble is, the first 11 pretty much picks itself. Of the bench of Steer, Elmo, El Ghazi, Traore, Taylor, Hourihane and Nakamba, who could we have started instead? Hourihane for Barkley maybe, but then Ross wasn't away on international duty so should have been fresh as a daisy. Nakamba for Luiz maybe, but that's a serious stepdown in quality the way Luiz had been playing. I don't know where Davis was, stubbed his toe again?
I actually thought that El Ghazi looked quite enterprising when he came on, he was certainly better than Traore who was awful, so he could maybe get a run out instead of Trez next match. However hard that Trez works, his quality is dreadful, and one assist and no goals from eight games is a pretty crap return for one of our three forwards.
I agree with all of that Risso
We have a decent quality starting 11
any changes to that inevitably weakens the team as our squad is not strong enough at the moment
Smith knows this that is why he's so against the 5 sub rule
we are competing in the top half of the prem with a paper thin squad in quality terms
the days of ' he can do a job' or 'he's never let us down' or ' he's done enough to deserve the shirt' are long gone we are in with the big boys now
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On reflection, there are some positives from Saturday.
Yes, we were wasteful in front of goal, but the team kept pushing, and trying right until the very last second.
How many times over the years have we seen us losing in a game and allowing it to peter out without a fight? At least that doesn’t happen now.
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I'm still just really pissed off with the utter Aston Villa-ness of it all. If we'd have performed anything like how we did against Arsenal, we'd have buried them, but instead it was a defensive display that wouldn't have looked out of place last year.
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Here's Ian Ladyman's of the Mail view on the pen
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8976051/IAN-LADYMAN-Muddled-interpretation-tackling-making-fools-Martin-Keown-baffled.html
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What a strange write up that is, portraying March as though he had made a measured thoughout great tackle and won Brighton the game. Were the reality is March was absolutely shitting it as soon as he made the tackle because he knew that he had fouled him.
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I doubt there's a club in the land who you'd say wouldn't be weakened if you replaced one of their 'best 11' with another player who isn't in the best 11 ... surely that's the point?
I dunno, to me it seemed a bit ... odd ... starting with a number of players who'd already been quite active on international duty. Personally, I'd rather some of them have been rested for the Brighton game. Maybe leave Jack & Doug out for the Brighton match, and SJM & Mings out for the next game ... something like that.
Really think that if we play our cards right this season, we could end up with an inflated league position. Just because there's a compressed league season, which'll affect teams in Europe more than teams who aren't. I think if we can keep the team pressing heavily with high tempo football, we'll rip a few teams apart (see Liverpool, Arsenal) - and we'll do it more and more as the season progresses and other sides tire.
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No need to make changes for the Wetspam game. It isnt until next monday night. Players will have had a week to get into tip top condition and the game plan should be fully rehearsed and understood. I expect another 3 points from a comprehensive away win.
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What a strange write up that is, portraying March as though he had made a measured thoughout great tackle and won Brighton the game. Were the reality is March was absolutely shitting it as soon as he made the tackle because he knew that he had fouled him.
I was absolutely fuming when the pen was disallowed and convinced the ref had cocked up. But the reality is he got a big touch on the ball. Are people saying any contact after / during a tackle should be a foul? If so, that's the end of any tough tackles and sliding challenges etc that fans enjoy so much. I'm not saying Ben Mee type assualts should be allowed, but do we really want to take all contcact out of tackling?
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What a strange write up that is, portraying March as though he had made a measured thoughout great tackle and won Brighton the game. Were the reality is March was absolutely shitting it as soon as he made the tackle because he knew that he had fouled him.
I was absolutely fuming when the pen was disallowed and convinced the ref had cocked up. But the reality is he got a big touch on the ball. Are people saying any contact after / during a tackle should be a foul? If so, that's the end of any tough tackles and sliding challenges etc that fans enjoy so much. I'm not saying Ben Mee type assualts should be allowed, but do we really want to take all contcact out of tackling?
I wouldn't say it was a big touch. The ball was bobbling after the 'tackle' and Trez could have very easily ran onto it, if he hadn't been tripped up.
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I thought it was a penalty, but looking back I could see why perhaps it wasn't given. I'm just fed up with Var though - sometimes we get the decision sometimes not, but however it goes it takes away a lot of the fun of watching football.
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The thing about that ‘penalty’ is that if it had been given there wouldn’t have been an outcry saying it shouldn’t have been a pen.
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What a strange write up that is, portraying March as though he had made a measured thoughout great tackle and won Brighton the game. Were the reality is March was absolutely shitting it as soon as he made the tackle because he knew that he had fouled him.
I was absolutely fuming when the pen was disallowed and convinced the ref had cocked up. But the reality is he got a big touch on the ball. Are people saying any contact after / during a tackle should be a foul? If so, that's the end of any tough tackles and sliding challenges etc that fans enjoy so much. I'm not saying Ben Mee type assualts should be allowed, but do we really want to take all contcact out of tackling?
I wouldn't say it was a big touch. The ball was bobbling after the 'tackle' and Trez could have very easily ran onto it, if he hadn't been tripped up.
It was big enough for the balls direction to change by about 90 degrees and out of Trez's path. As for tripping him up, Trez could have stayed on his feet if he wanted but obviously went down when he felt the contact as most players would.
Yesterday I was convinced it was a pen, but having watched it properly today I've changed my mind.
Edit - watch it here, the defenders touch moves the ball by a yard or so.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12140105/ref-watch-dermot-gallagher-on-conor-gallagher-bruno-fernandes-incident-not-a-penalty
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In what world do people think that is not a penalty? I respect one's right to an opinion, but Trez cuts the ball back and the defender gets a touch but then proceeds to hack Trez's shins. Let's allow that the player "defended the ball" (which is dubious), he then impedes Trez's ability to continue to play and chase down the ball by taking him down in the box. By any reasonable standard, that is a penalty. Again, I respect a person's right to view it as a fair play, but it surprises me greatly that anyone does!
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I'm with you pelty. I would also question that the direction of the ball changed by 90' - to me it wasn't even half that. What gets me is that in Ladymans article he talks about March deflecting the ball with boot when in reality the only thing his boot connected with us Trez's shin. How can Ladyman and so many others see something didn't happen. Please correct me if I'm wrong but to me there was absolutely no boot to ball contact .
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What a strange write up that is, portraying March as though he had made a measured thoughout great tackle and won Brighton the game. Were the reality is March was absolutely shitting it as soon as he made the tackle because he knew that he had fouled him.
I was absolutely fuming when the pen was disallowed and convinced the ref had cocked up. But the reality is he got a big touch on the ball. Are people saying any contact after / during a tackle should be a foul? If so, that's the end of any tough tackles and sliding challenges etc that fans enjoy so much. I'm not saying Ben Mee type assualts should be allowed, but do we really want to take all contcact out of tackling?
For me, the acid test is whether that foul would have been given if outside the box: if you review all the fouls awarded during the game you'll find several similar to the March 'tackle'.
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In what world do people think that is not a penalty? I respect one's right to an opinion, but Trez cuts the ball back and the defender gets a touch but then proceeds to hack Trez's shins. Let's allow that the player "defended the ball" (which is dubious), he then impedes Trez's ability to continue to play and chase down the ball by taking him down in the box. By any reasonable standard, that is a penalty. Again, I respect a person's right to view it as a fair play, but it surprises me greatly that anyone does!
So by definition you think every tackle with contact is a foul? Every sliding tackle is a foul etc?
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Which is exactly what happened in the Liverpool v Leicester game yesterday evening. Justin tackled Milner, touching the ball and then went through him, foul given and yellow card. The fact it was 40 yards from goal should be no different to if it was 10 yards from goal.
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I'm with you pelty. I would also question that the direction of the ball changed by 90' - to me it wasn't even half that. What gets me is that in Ladymans article he talks about March deflecting the ball with boot when in reality the only thing his boot connected with us Trez's shin. How can Ladyman and so many others see something didn't happen. Please correct me if I'm wrong but to me there was absolutely no boot to ball contact .
There's one angle of replay where it looks like boot. Every other one shows it flicking off the outside of his calf.
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Which is exactly what happened in the Liverpool v Leicester game yesterday evening. Justin tackled Milner, touching the ball and then went through him, foul given and yellow card. The fact it was 40 yards from goal should be no different to if it was 10 yards from goal.
So was this tackle at the 1 minute mark a foul? Freddie gets the ball perfectly but undoubtedly there's contact and he takes the player down in the process?
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1068385856890119
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In what world do people think that is not a penalty? I respect one's right to an opinion, but Trez cuts the ball back and the defender gets a touch but then proceeds to hack Trez's shins. Let's allow that the player "defended the ball" (which is dubious), he then impedes Trez's ability to continue to play and chase down the ball by taking him down in the box. By any reasonable standard, that is a penalty. Again, I respect a person's right to view it as a fair play, but it surprises me greatly that anyone does!
So by definition you think every tackle with contact is a foul? Every sliding tackle is a foul etc?
If you win the ball, no. If having missed with your hoped-for challenge you barely or accidentally brush it and don't alter either its direction or the opposing player's possession of it and then clatter said opponent, yes. As ever in these circumstances, I'd like to submit the precedent of Johnson vs Agbonlahor, m'lud.
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What a strange write up that is, portraying March as though he had made a measured thoughout great tackle and won Brighton the game. Were the reality is March was absolutely shitting it as soon as he made the tackle because he knew that he had fouled him.
I was absolutely fuming when the pen was disallowed and convinced the ref had cocked up. But the reality is he got a big touch on the ball. Are people saying any contact after / during a tackle should be a foul? If so, that's the end of any tough tackles and sliding challenges etc that fans enjoy so much. I'm not saying Ben Mee type assualts should be allowed, but do we really want to take all contcact out of tackling?
For me, the acid test is whether that foul would have been given if outside the box: if you review all the fouls awarded during the game you'll find several similar to the March 'tackle'.
For me the acid test is whether the player tackled plays for Villa. If he does, it's a foul. If not, it isn't.
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Dermot Gallagher on SKY agreeing that Villa shouldn't have had a penalty at the death. To be fair he also talked a load of bollox about two other Premier League penalty debates at the weekend. Even the SKY guy interviewing him was shaking his head in disbelief at the garbled and contradicting explanations Gallagher was coming out with.
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The Dermot Gallagher ref watch thing on SSN is a cringe fest. If the penalty stood then he would've still said it was the correct decision. Pointless feature but with 24/7 coverage they need to put something on.
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In what world do people think that is not a penalty? I respect one's right to an opinion, but Trez cuts the ball back and the defender gets a touch but then proceeds to hack Trez's shins. Let's allow that the player "defended the ball" (which is dubious), he then impedes Trez's ability to continue to play and chase down the ball by taking him down in the box. By any reasonable standard, that is a penalty. Again, I respect a person's right to view it as a fair play, but it surprises me greatly that anyone does!
So by definition you think every tackle with contact is a foul? Every sliding tackle is a foul etc?
no not every foul
Just the ones where the contact is a direct kick to the opponents legs
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In what world do people think that is not a penalty? I respect one's right to an opinion, but Trez cuts the ball back and the defender gets a touch but then proceeds to hack Trez's shins. Let's allow that the player "defended the ball" (which is dubious), he then impedes Trez's ability to continue to play and chase down the ball by taking him down in the box. By any reasonable standard, that is a penalty. Again, I respect a person's right to view it as a fair play, but it surprises me greatly that anyone does!
So by definition you think every tackle with contact is a foul? Every sliding tackle is a foul etc?
No, literally no one this thread has come close to suggesting that. What many people have said is that March didn't 'win' the ball. If there's no contact Trez retains possession and probably gets a shot away because the contact from March is nowhere near enough to take the ball away from him. If you make a tackle and don't clearly win the ball before making contact with the attacker then then I don't see how that's a legal challenge in line with the laws of the game. I've watched it 7-8 times since 'live' and nothing has changed my opinion that anywhere else on the pitch it's a guaranteed free kick no review required. All they've done, in my opinion, is set precedents that contact with the ball negates the possibility of a foul unless it's also a booking and that the bar for foul play is higher inside the box than outside.
I don't think either of those is a good thing for the game.
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It is the MON dilemma, do you weaken the team by playing the second string or risk burn out and injuries by sticking with the best X1.
i Spose if we’d won we wouldn’t be talking about this. They could’ve probably rested all the international players and still put out a strong side. I do go along with the keep the settled side theory, but sometimes I think maybe you do need to rest a few players in a situation like where they’ve just played international games and we’ve decent players in the squad who haven’t.
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I don't see how you can watch this 7 or 8 times and not see how the defenders touch significantly takes the ball away from Trez. It may not be clean but it deflects the ball substatially. In that action he then clips Trez - if he hadn't got the ball it would of course have been a pen. It's a tackle. It may not be an aesthetically pleasing one but it still nips the ball away from Trez. Personally I don't want to see a game where slight contact after a tackle is deemed a foul.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12140105/ref-watch-dermot-gallagher-on-conor-gallagher-bruno-fernandes-incident-not-a-penalty
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That link has certainly convinced me....not.
Sh-t decisions made by refs or var or both and then endorsed by the likes of gallagher will only serve to ensure that refs or var or both remain sh-t.
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The grass was too long for our game. The ball was moving around more slowly than normal.
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The grass was too long for our game. The ball was moving around more slowly than normal.
All joking aside. I did comment while watching the game that the pitch didn't look it's usual immaculate best on Saturday. Just an observation.
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I don't see how you can watch this 7 or 8 times and not see how the defenders touch significantly takes the ball away from Trez. It may not be clean but it deflects the ball substatially. In that action he then clips Trez - if he hadn't got the ball it would of course have been a pen. It's a tackle. It may not be an aesthetically pleasing one but it still nips the ball away from Trez. Personally I don't want to see a game where slight contact after a tackle is deemed a foul.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12140105/ref-watch-dermot-gallagher-on-conor-gallagher-bruno-fernandes-incident-not-a-penalty
Trez could have stayed on his feet if he wanted
It's looking like we'll never agree on our definitions of 'substantially', 'significantly' or '90 degrees', but I can't escape the feeling that your biggest beef with this is that you think Trez wasn't robust enough.
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I think the number of Villa fans on here that did not think it was a pen is a clue as to why it was not given.
Its not as clear cut as the Fernandez foul on Konsa for example that did arrive at a penalty decision (incredbly) and every one of us agreed it was an abomination of a decision..
And this was more of a penalty because the contact was instigated by March.
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I don't see how you can watch this 7 or 8 times and not see how the defenders touch significantly takes the ball away from Trez. It may not be clean but it deflects the ball substatially. In that action he then clips Trez - if he hadn't got the ball it would of course have been a pen. It's a tackle. It may not be an aesthetically pleasing one but it still nips the ball away from Trez. Personally I don't want to see a game where slight contact after a tackle is deemed a foul.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12140105/ref-watch-dermot-gallagher-on-conor-gallagher-bruno-fernandes-incident-not-a-penalty
You used the words "clips Trez" and "slight contact" Neither of these are close to what actually happened. I think a true description is "gets the faintest of touches with the outside of his boot. He then clatters Trez's shin". I think that's a more accurate description of what actually happened. I usually rate Michael Oliver but he would have gone up in most people's estimation if he had looked at the monitor in normal speed and said "I'm happy with my original decision" Now he just looks weak and indecisive.
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The grass was too long for our game. The ball was moving around more slowly than normal.
All joking aside. I did comment while watching the game that the pitch didn't look it's usual immaculate best on Saturday. Just an observation.
Watching that ball travel along the edge of the box towards March almost looks like it was filmed in reverse with how it starts off rolling true before beginning to skip higher and higher, eventually sitting up perfectly for the foot he normally only uses for standing.
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The grass was too long for our game. The ball was moving around more slowly than normal.
All joking aside. I did comment while watching the game that the pitch didn't look it's usual immaculate best on Saturday. Just an observation.
I was being serious!... Well just a little bit. I'm not blaming it as its the same for both sides but I did think it looked slow.
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I don't see how you can watch this 7 or 8 times and not see how the defenders touch significantly takes the ball away from Trez. It may not be clean but it deflects the ball substatially. In that action he then clips Trez - if he hadn't got the ball it would of course have been a pen. It's a tackle. It may not be an aesthetically pleasing one but it still nips the ball away from Trez. Personally I don't want to see a game where slight contact after a tackle is deemed a foul.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12140105/ref-watch-dermot-gallagher-on-conor-gallagher-bruno-fernandes-incident-not-a-penalty
Trez could have stayed on his feet if he wanted
It's looking like we'll never agree on our definitions of 'substantially', 'significantly' or '90 degrees', but I can't escape the feeling that your biggest beef with this is that you think Trez wasn't robust enough.
That's not true I think he did the right thing and it's just unfortunate the defender got the ball first. My biggest beef is we didn't get the penalty and I was furious the ref changed his mind. It's just that on re-watching it I can clearly see the touch on the ball that I didn't see properly at the time and if it was us defending I would have said that touch was enough for it not to be a pen.
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I don't think anyone is going to change their minds on this, it all comes down to how you define 'gets the ball' and 'careless'.
For me, gets the ball means the attacker player loses possession even if there is no contact between the players. In this situation I believe that if March catches the bal las he did but doesn't kick Trez as well then Trez stays in possession and probably gets a shot away.
Careless just means contact that was unnecessary but isn't dangerous and is very often fairly minor contact so even if you think it was just a light tap across the shin (I don't, Smith said he heard the contact from the dugout) that doesn't mean the challenge wasn't careless.
If the defender wins the ball and the tackle isn't considered reckless or excessive then there's a fair argument that it's not a foul but for me he didn't do that. Other people will see contact with the ball and think that's enough, which is up to them, but I think there are more examples where contact with the ball like this is deemed irrelevant than where it's enough to not be a free kick.
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Several days later and there's still not a consensus which says it all. What bothers me though is that I've yet to see a ref get called over to look at the monitor and stick to their original decision. As soon as they get called over, you might as well forget it. That's what bothers me about it.
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The grass was too long for our game. The ball was moving around more slowly than normal.
All joking aside. I did comment while watching the game that the pitch didn't look it's usual immaculate best on Saturday. Just an observation.
I was being serious!... Well just a little bit. I'm not blaming it as its the same for both sides but I did think it looked slow.
Oh ok sorry 😁 the pitch didn't look like a great playing surface on Saturday which is not something you would normally say about Villa Park. By the way I'm in no way saying that the pitch had any bearing on the result. It's just an observation.
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I would have n problem with refs re-looking at every penalty decision. I the context of the importance on the outcome of a game, a ref spending less time than Ben Foster does to take a goal kick double checking he is happy with his call would be fine by me.
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Several days later and there's still not a consensus which says it all. What bothers me though is that I've yet to see a ref get called over to look at the monitor and stick to their original decision. As soon as they get called over, you might as well forget it. That's what bothers me about it.
That and watching such incidents in slow motion which distorts everything. The ref should look at the monitor in full speed and if he did that I'm convinced he would have stuck with his original decision. If he's got the bollocks.
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I would have n problem with refs re-looking at every penalty decision. I the context of the importance on the outcome of a game, a ref spending less time than Ben Foster does to take a goal kick double checking he is happy with his call would be fine by me.
At least then the ref wouldn't have a bias before reviewing them. Being summoned over is like being told 'you made the wrong decision, here's your get out of jail card'.
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I would have n problem with refs re-looking at every penalty decision. I the context of the importance on the outcome of a game, a ref spending less time than Ben Foster does to take a goal kick double checking he is happy with his call would be fine by me.
At least then the ref wouldn't have a bias before reviewing them. Being summoned over is like being told 'you made the wrong decision, here's your get out of jail card'.
That's a very good way of putting it. But when are refs going to have the balls to say "I've looked at it and I think I was right"
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So is the only point to the remote VAR team now to do their ridiculous offside decisions to the nearest electron? If all they're going to do is refer the ref to the monitor in the ground, why doesn't the ref just check every penalty appeal anyway then? Got to be quicker than having VAR look at it for a couple of minutes, then just refer it back to the ref.
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I think the number of Villa fans on here that did not think it was a pen is a clue as to why it was not given.
Its not as clear cut as the Fernandez foul on Konsa for example that did arrive at a penalty decision (incredbly) and every one of us agreed it was an abomination of a decision..
And this was more of a penalty because the contact was instigated by March.
Wrong! It was given and then reversed. The indecision here only suggests that it was not a "clear and obvious error" which means the penalty should have stood.
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I think the number of Villa fans on here that did not think it was a pen is a clue as to why it was not given.
Its not as clear cut as the Fernandez foul on Konsa for example that did arrive at a penalty decision (incredbly) and every one of us agreed it was an abomination of a decision..
And this was more of a penalty because the contact was instigated by March.
Wrong! It was given and then reversed. The indecision here only suggests that it was not a "clear and obvious error" which means the penalty should have stood.
i have said before the clear and obvious error meant it should have stood, not sure where I am wrong.
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I think the number of Villa fans on here that did not think it was a pen is a clue as to why it was not given.
Its not as clear cut as the Fernandez foul on Konsa for example that did arrive at a penalty decision (incredbly) and every one of us agreed it was an abomination of a decision..
And this was more of a penalty because the contact was instigated by March.
Wrong! It was given and then reversed. The indecision here only suggests that it was not a "clear and obvious error" which means the penalty should have stood.
i have said before the clear and obvious error meant it should have stood, not sure where I am wrong.
Apologies then, CL. I did not see the earlier post. I read your post as indicating that we can understand why it is reversed, but I can not understand it simply because it does not meet the "clear and obvious" standard in any way. If the penalty was not given in the first place and we were debating if it is a foul at all, then I agree that people can see it differently, but that is not what the issue is in this instance. I am not speaking against you here, CL, just the pathetic state of refereeing these days.
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I think the number of Villa fans on here that did not think it was a pen is a clue as to why it was not given.
Its not as clear cut as the Fernandez foul on Konsa for example that did arrive at a penalty decision (incredbly) and every one of us agreed it was an abomination of a decision..
And this was more of a penalty because the contact was instigated by March.
Wrong! It was given and then reversed. The indecision here only suggests that it was not a "clear and obvious error" which means the penalty should have stood.
i have said before the clear and obvious error meant it should have stood, not sure where I am wrong.
Apologies then, CL. I did not see the earlier post. I read your post as indicating that we can understand why it is reversed, but I can not understand it simply because it does not meet the "clear and obvious" standard in any way. If the penalty was not given in the first place and we were debating if it is a foul at all, then I agree that people can see it differently, but that is not what the issue is in this instance. I am not speaking against you here, CL, just the pathetic state of refereeing these days.
no worries mate
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I actually thought Trez had his best 'football' first half since he joined the club. Then he had me howling with incredulity when he missed the rebound chance!!