Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Villa Memories => Topic started by: BC Villain on August 09, 2020, 06:45:12 PM
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Hard to believe that a decade has passed since MON's exit triggered the comedy of errors that ended with us nearly going under in 2018.
https://youtu.be/lp0tfteYu-k
It certainly wasn't a shock that O'Neill left - it had been rumoured for weeks that all wasnt well - but the timing still leaves a bitter taste. Had he gone at the end of the previous season, I'm certain he'd be much more highly thought of than he is now. I'm not for one minute blaming him for relegation in 2016. There was a long enough spell in-between to have sorted the club out, but for weak leadership and a string of appointments of people not fit for purpose.
Hopefully now, the wrongs are being righted, and the club can get on the very long path and move on to get back to the levels we were in 2006-2010.
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I can't really remember the circumstances surrounding this and whether it was expected or a complete shock, but I remember watching him being interviewed after the Valencia friendly a few days previously and thinking something wasn't right. Either way, the bloke is a complete tnuc and I never forgave him after Moscow.
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Our frailties after he left weren’t his fault but he can certainly take the blame for blowing nearly a quarter of a billion quid on finishing 6th three times and not winning a trophy.
He pissed the future of the club up the wall with minimal oversight from an owner and his lackeys who treated Aston Villa like a museum. O’Neill was a control freak, living in the past tactically, with a UKIP inspired transfer and squad building policy. He was a tactical dinosaur and didn’t have good coaches (bibs and cones anyone!) to instil anything like the awareness or tactical approach needed in football in the 21st century, the game had moved on whilst he’d been away tending to his wife and he got left behind.
He thought he was the new Brian Clough, he turned out to be slightly better than Sam Allardyce.
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Habib Beye £42k per week.
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The only ones who truly know what went on in the build up to O'Neill going are him and Lerner, but I doubt either are likely to go public with their thoughts.
Again, had he left in May 2010, he'd be thought of with much more respect than he is now. It all felt like Lerner, Faulkner and O'Neill spent that Summer playing a game of brinkmanship which - in the end - went too far.
For me, the beginning of the end was Moscow. In one moment, he lost so much trust of the fans, and it was never fully repaired - even with the cup runs we had in 09/10.
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Thanks but I don't want to think about that fucking wanker anymore than I already have to.
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I would imagine not going on a thread with his name is a good start.
Pissed off with the short notice how he fucked us over in short period but still gave me some of the best memories since Little.
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The most interesting manager and period of our recent history. His qualities and faults were both just so extreme - such a tactical caveman, with a club culture that would have been embarrassing in the 90s, nevertheless I can't help but remember what Dave Woodhall once said: if you accept how bad his minuses were, how good must his plus points have been to get us as far as he did?
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The most interesting manager and period of our recent history. His qualities and faults were both just so extreme - such a tactical caveman, with a club culture that would have been embarrassing in the 90s, nevertheless I can't help but remember what Dave Woodhall once said: if you accept how bad his minuses were, how good must his plus points have been to get us as far as he did?
I said that????
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The most interesting manager and period of our recent history. His qualities and faults were both just so extreme - such a tactical caveman, with a club culture that would have been embarrassing in the 90s, nevertheless I can't help but remember what Dave Woodhall once said: if you accept how bad his minuses were, how good must his plus points have been to get us as far as he did?
I said that????
A lot more concisely!
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The most interesting manager and period of our recent history. His qualities and faults were both just so extreme - such a tactical caveman, with a club culture that would have been embarrassing in the 90s, nevertheless I can't help but remember what Dave Woodhall once said: if you accept how bad his minuses were, how good must his plus points have been to get us as far as he did?
I said that????
A lot more concisely!
I can't remember it and it certainly sounds very different to my opinion of him.
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The most interesting manager and period of our recent history. His qualities and faults were both just so extreme - such a tactical caveman, with a club culture that would have been embarrassing in the 90s, nevertheless I can't help but remember what Dave Woodhall once said: if you accept how bad his minuses were, how good must his plus points have been to get us as far as he did?
I said that????
A lot more concisely!
I can't remember it and it certainly sounds very different to my opinion of him.
Interesting. Definitely remember something to that effect though - maybe as an aside to some argument? What would you say now?
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The most interesting manager and period of our recent history. His qualities and faults were both just so extreme - such a tactical caveman, with a club culture that would have been embarrassing in the 90s, nevertheless I can't help but remember what Dave Woodhall once said: if you accept how bad his minuses were, how good must his plus points have been to get us as far as he did?
I said that????
A lot more concisely!
I can't remember it and it certainly sounds very different to my opinion of him.
Interesting. Definitely remember something to that effect though - maybe as an aside to some argument? What would you say now?
While he was here his myopic approach to signings ruined any chance we had of cracking the top four and he chose exactly the right time to walk out in order to cause maximum damage to a club where he had been the most powerful manager in the Premier League and who he left the first time his absolute authority was challenged.
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The most interesting manager and period of our recent history. His qualities and faults were both just so extreme - such a tactical caveman, with a club culture that would have been embarrassing in the 90s, nevertheless I can't help but remember what Dave Woodhall once said: if you accept how bad his minuses were, how good must his plus points have been to get us as far as he did?
I said that????
A lot more concisely!
I can't remember it and it certainly sounds very different to my opinion of him.
Interesting. Definitely remember something to that effect though - maybe as an aside to some argument? What would you say now?
While he was here his myopic approach to signings ruined any chance we had of cracking the top four and he chose exactly the right time to walk out in order to cause maximum damage to a club where he had been the most powerful manager in the Premier League and who he left the first time his absolute authority was challenged.
Well...yep. True.
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I watched the video linked to in the OP earlier today. I broadly agree with Kendrick - it was a battle in which everyone lost.
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But the one thing I will say is that we couldn't blame him for more than a couple of years. By the time Lambert arrived we should have been rid of his influence.
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Given the money and opportunity he had, he achieved the bare minimum that could have been expected.
Bought too many mediocre English/British players. But stuck to the same XI nearly every week.
Then fucked us over when the easy money ran out, and he hadn't had the foresight to build a good enough squad to continue competing.
Oh and Heskey.
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The two occasions we had the ability to spend big and take that step into the top few sides we had Gregory and pubehead spending the money. Two average managers with little ability beyond motivation and who had no idea you could buy players from outside the UK. Still pisses me off those 2 wasted all that money.
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I hate him, hate his spending on donkeys, hate the way he dropped us in the shit when he flounced off, and I can't believe that I ever rated him.
Truth is though, I did really love him at the start. That first game at the Emirates (with Lerner just taking over from Doug,"USA,USA..." Mellberg scoring the first ever goal at the new ground etc) was up there with one of the best days I've had as a Villa fan. Liberated from Ellis, a new owner who we all thought loved Villa and our history and said all the right things. Some really great days, ending in the effing nightmare that we're still recovering from....
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The two occasions we had the ability to spend big and take that step into the top few sides we had Gregory and pubehead spending the money. Two average managers with little ability beyond motivation and who had no idea you could buy players from outside the UK. Still pisses me off those 2 wasted all that money.
I'd argue MOM wasn't as big a motivator has claimed. I always felt made a teams appear to be less that the sum of its parts.
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Totally agree Chico. When O'Neill and Randy turned up I thought we were in for great times like the late 70's early 80's. God it turned to shit so quickly when it went wrong.
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The two occasions we had the ability to spend big and take that step into the top few sides we had Gregory and pubehead spending the money. Two average managers with little ability beyond motivation and who had no idea you could buy players from outside the UK. Still pisses me off those 2 wasted all that money.
I'd argue MOM wasn't as big a motivator has claimed. I always felt made a teams appear to be less that the sum of its parts.
I know people who worked at Villa then and they said that when he deigned to speak he could have you willing to run through brick walls for him.
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I would imagine not going on a thread with his name is a good start.
Pissed off with the short notice how he fucked us over in short period but still gave me some of the best memories since Little.
I was very much a MON fan generally speaking. Apart from the last minute deadline day trolley dashes for players that would have put Harry Redknapp to shame. He stitched us up with the manner of his departure and the Milner sale was obviously the tipping point for O'Neill. I think in some ways the circumstances were similar to when Ron Saunders left. I think both Saunders and MON fully believed they would win the power struggle, get their way and come out the other side even more powerful. They were both wrong.
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I would imagine not going on a thread with his name is a good start.
Pissed off with the short notice how he fucked us over in short period but still gave me some of the best memories since Little.
I was very much a MON fan generally speaking. Apart from the last minute deadline day trolley dashes for players that would have put Harry Redknapp to shame. He stitched us up with the manner of his departure and the Milner sale was obviously the tipping point for O'Neill. I think in some ways the circumstances were similar to when Ron Saunders left. I think both Saunders and MON fully believed they would win the power struggle, get their way and come out the other side even more powerful. They were both wrong.
The difference being, Saunders was an excellent manager who won things for the club.
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The two occasions we had the ability to spend big and take that step into the top few sides we had Gregory and pubehead spending the money. Two average managers with little ability beyond motivation and who had no idea you could buy players from outside the UK. Still pisses me off those 2 wasted all that money.
I'd argue MOM wasn't as big a motivator has claimed. I always felt made a teams appear to be less that the sum of its parts.
I know people who worked at Villa then and they said that when he deigned to speak he could have you willing to run through brick walls for him.
I think it seemed quite clear that his Leicester and Celtic sides would run through brick walls for him. His Villa teams seemed to play for him too more often than not. But whatever motivational skills he had seemed to have worn off during his time with Sunderland and Forest.
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We played Newcastle early in his reign and iirc ater the game their manager said our commitment etc was frightening.
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I hate him, hate his spending on donkeys, hate the way he dropped us in the shit when he flounced off, and I can't believe that I ever rated him.
Truth is though, I did really love him at the start. That first game at the Emirates (with Lerner just taking over from Doug,"USA,USA..." Mellberg scoring the first ever goal at the new ground etc) was up there with one of the best days I've had as a Villa fan. Liberated from Ellis, a new owner who we all thought loved Villa and our history and said all the right things. Some really great days, ending in the effing nightmare that we're still recovering from....
O'Neill was exactly what the club needed in 2006, after the O'Leary years, and I'd argue that Villa was the exactly the club he needed. For all the gripes we had later on in his reign and in the years after he left, the initial buzz that greeted his arrival has only been matched by our late surge to promotion in 2019.
Him leaving really exposed the "by the seat of our pants" way that the club was being run.
I often wonder about whether the fall out from Moscow played a part in him going. The club put on that meal for those who went and, I know from talking to people who went that there seemed little remorse from him for making that decision.
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I think MON thought he could do anything he wanted Brian Clough style but firstly there was only one Brian Clough (helped by the fact Forest was run by a committee that Clough could divide, conquer and manipulate with no Doug style owner) and secondly football had moved on from Clough, Saunders, McMenemy managers that ran their clubs from top to bottom. I doubt if Mourinho has the power and clout at Spurs these days that he had at Chelsea.
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Sure its been posted here before, but this says so much about O'Neill and his dislike for those who dare to challenge him
https://youtu.be/p9kjjOAqg0w
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Sure its been posted here before, but this says so much about O'Neill and his dislike for those who dare to challenge him
https://youtu.be/p9kjjOAqg0w
My God! I've never seen that but what a twat he made himself look.
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Sure its been posted here before, but this says so much about O'Neill and his dislike for those who dare to challenge him
https://youtu.be/p9kjjOAqg0w
My God! I've never seen that but what a twat he made himself look.
Twats have a habit of doing that.
I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire.
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Its the wild look in his eyes. First he tries to fob off the interviewer with a humorous quip, and then the realisation hits that this man is actually daring to challenge Saint Martin. You wonder if he was like this when Kendrick penned that seven deadly sins article after the Chelsea 7-1 debacle.
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He did have a habit of being argumentative and belittling in interviews and also when he was doing TV punditry.
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I will continue to hold favourable memories of MON and liked his personality quirks. The team he built was the best seen at Villa Park over the past 20 odd years and while we may say that he should have done better with the money, many managers have done worse in similar circumstances. It was strange that he left after our best season, but it was a failure not to get top 4 or win a trophy that year. His failing was not to know how to use a squad and he was reliant on keeping with a core of players that would fight for him, but as the season went on run out of steam. Also although he left in a poor way, this should really have resulted only in a difficult season or two, as we still had a good squad and players like Milner and Young that could be sold for significant funds to rebuild. The subsequent decline and relegation is down to Lerner. Whilst we are quoting Dave W I remember during the euphoria of MON being appointed he questionned whether this motivational manager was the right person considering we had just landed a rich owner with a large transfer fund.
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He did have a habit of being argumentative and belittling in interviews and also when he was doing TV punditry.
He does always give off the air of someone who thinks they're the smartest person in the room. Which is one thing when he is in fact the smartest person in the room, quite another when he's not, as BC's linked video perfectly illustrates. In both scenarios, he's still a reprehensible prick.
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Without adding the big quote above, I did at the time he was appointed say that he was top six but wouldn't be top four. There was a lot of euphoria around then, though, and for three years we were all caught up in it.
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Without adding the big quote above, I did at the time he was appointed say that he was top six but wouldn't be top four. There was a lot of euphoria around then, though, and for three years we were all caught up in it.
The receipts are here somewhere on this website. I would say I was caught up in it for 12-18 months, but I soon saw through him. The reporter in the clip above had it spot on when he talked about negative tactics and waiting for the other team to make a mistake. We won so many games by pace and counter-attack especially away from home, made for some dull times during home games.
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Without adding the big quote above, I did at the time he was appointed say that he was top six but wouldn't be top four. There was a lot of euphoria around then, though, and for three years we were all caught up in it.
The receipts are here somewhere on this website. I would say I was caught up in it for 12-18 months, but I soon saw through him. The reporter in the clip above had it spot on when he talked about negative tactics and waiting for the other team to make a mistake. We won so many games by pace and counter-attack especially away from home, made for some dull times during home games.
I think MON's counter attack philosophy came from his days at Forest under Clough & Taylor when they won the title, two League cups and two European cups playing that way even at home.
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He did have a habit of being argumentative and belittling in interviews and also when he was doing TV punditry.
Ripping the piss out of Robbie Williams was a highlight, to be fair.
Not sure why there's a laugh track over it.
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Should we have not taken our time a bit longer in 10/11?
Seems the club were going to give McDonald the job full time until the freak 6-0 at Newcastle happened then they backtracked. He could've still stayed as caretaker for a few more weeks as usually by October/November decent managers become available for several reasons.
I just never got the Houllier appointment. Too old, not involved in football management since 2007 and not the type I was expecting to follow someone who'd just finished 6th three seasons running. Add in a dodgy ticker and it was the first warning sign to me Lerner and co didn't really have much clue. Six months later and we're appointing McLeish and practically giving up on being a top level team.
MON walking out when he did was horrible but we should've held our nerve. Put out a big statement saying McDonald would be in charge until a world class manager become available during the season and fans should temper their expectations for the season a bit as there was a bizarre demand still to try to get a top 4 finish that season IIRC.
Ride out the following six months and I can't believe it would've gone as south as it did for the next five years. We still had plenty of good players in the squad.
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I think this is actually fair enough, the question was more than a bit twattish itself so he was entitled to defend himself with a touch of steel.
In the broad sweep I was very supportive at first, the happiest of clappers, and desperate to believe that he was going to change style to suit our increasing ambitions, but did a 180 later as that was never going to happen. DW's remark about him being top 6 but not top 4 was scarily exact in the end, and his and Lerner's time in charge has to be regarded as a massive blown opportunity, and one which had repercussions for us a bit like the Ridsdale-DOL era did for Leeds.
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I think this is actually fair enough, the question was more than a bit twattish itself so he was entitled to defend himself with a touch of steel.
In the broad sweep I was very supportive at first, the happiest of clappers, and desperate to believe that he was going to change style to suit our increasing ambitions, but did a 180 later as that was never going to happen. DW's remark about him being top 6 but not top 4 was scarily exact in the end, and his and Lerner's time in charge has to be regarded as a massive blown opportunity, and one which had repercussions for us a bit like the Ridsdale-DOL era did for Leeds.
Well, no. He was being asked in the context of his tactics as an Ireland manager, which were widely criticised during his time in the job.
Whatever you may think about the tone of the journalist's question, O'Neill wasn't being asked about his career as a player and wasn't invited to talk about all his past glories and trophies (is he talking about Scottish competitions and English League Cups?) as a manager.
"I was involved in a UEFA final" - eh, okay. In 2003 - and not victorious. A strange thing to bring up, particularly as the killing blow of his rebuttal.
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Sure, but he could have asked 'do you think your tactics are working' or some such thing, rather than the obviously needling emphasis on luck.
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Sure, but he could have asked 'do you think your tactics are working' or some such thing, rather than the obviously needling emphasis on luck.
He'd already been asked that about a thousand times already by various journalists over his 5 year tenure as Ireland manager, that's the problem.
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The only ones who truly know what went on in the build up to O'Neill going are him and Lerner, but I doubt either are likely to go public with their thoughts.
Again, had he left in May 2010, he'd be thought of with much more respect than he is now. It all felt like Lerner, Faulkner and O'Neill spent that Summer playing a game of brinkmanship which - in the end - went too far.
For me, the beginning of the end was Moscow. In one moment, he lost so much trust of the fans, and it was never fully repaired - even with the cup runs we had in 09/10.
I think that's a good point actually. First year MON had us feeding out of his hands. I can remember a time on here when a few of us were wondering what on earth we were doing trying to make top 4 by signing likes of Zat Knight and Harewood and being met by a hail of bullets by those saying they were the only players in world football we could've signed for those roles.
I wasn't against signing likes of Habib Beye and Sidwell at the time as I actually thought both would improve the first 11 as Beye had been a good RB for Newcastle for instance.
After Moscow, while it never got to downright dissent in the stands, there was much more booing off at half times/full times after yet another full time 1-1 draw at home to Boro or Sunderland so the trust started to erode and think he knew it.
It's a shame as 09/10 was very close to being another 95/96. Would've likely won the league cup if Dowd hadn't bottled the red card and who knows how the semi final v Chelsea had gone if we'd got the penalty in the first half when we played really well. In the league we were 1 up at Man. City close to half time and 4th in the league, that was the 37th game.
Mutual consent the morning after the Blackburn game would've been ideal and given us the time to rebuild. Instead we spent the summer chasing Aiden McGeady and Scott Parker while Man. City signed Yaya Toure and David Silva (and Spurs signed Van Der Vaart on last day of the window) and we also lost our heartbeat of the team and Ireland was a complete flop. The moment was lost and it certainly has taken a decade for us to get over it.
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Think there was the Spurs game not long after Moscow, when we ironically cheered when Agbonlahor was substituted, with O'Neill practically eye-balling the Trinity Road end in disgust.
Two games stick in my mind from the 09/10 season, and they're the home games with West Ham and Wolves
West Ham turned up here (I think bottom of the league at the time) and held us to a goalless draw. In fact, I don't think we had a shot on target, even with about 900 corners, yet O'Neill proclaimed that he was "delighted" with the performance.
Then we played Wolves at home. Superb for the first ten minutes, we passed into space, moved the ball round quickly, and went one up. Then we decided to sit back and let a poor Wolves side come back into it. They were 2 - 1 up at half time, and then we resorted to the good old "lump it up to Heskey or Carew". Eventually we equalise with about ten minutes to go, but yet again site back and get a 2 - 2 draw.
For a side that were chasing Champions League football, dropping four points against two crap sides like that was poor, and I think gave the impression that he'd run out of ideas.
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A very good manager found out by his limitations. I don't go in much for the 'unfit' label that some stuck on us, as in three of his four seasons we ended the season strongly -hardly the hallmark of a knackered team.
I also didn't get the big fuss over Moscow. Easy to say when you haven't forked out for travel, grub and tickets, but to me it was just him prioritising potential Chumps League over a cup, which happens with most clubs in our 'top six'.
Sadly, it didn't work out -bloody Glenn Whelan!!
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A very good manager found out by his limitations. I don't go in much for the 'unfit' label that some stuck on us, as in three of his four seasons we ended the season strongly -hardly the hallmark of a knackered team.
I also didn't get the big fuss over Moscow. Easy to say when you haven't forked out for travel, grub and tickets, but to me it was just him prioritising potential Chumps League over a cup, which happens with most clubs in our 'top six'.
Sadly, it didn't work out -bloody Glenn Whelan!!
If only that was truly to blame for us not reaching the Champion's League - and not Martin O'Neill's myopic tactical deployment of the best side we've had this century. Not to mention, of course, signing Marlon Harewood and Emile Heskey for a combined £7.5m when 1 capable goalscorer for the same money might have got us over the line.
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It says it all that in the summer he left he was trying to sign Aidan McGeady. What a stellar career he’s had.
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We never won a game in March under him did we? So our strong runs in April and May was always trying to make up for the lost ground in the month before.
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We never won a game in March under him did we? So our strong runs in April and May was always trying to make up for the lost ground in the month before.
Exactly. Knacker the same 11 out week after week then wonder why it all goes wrong and you’re then playing catch up.
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Our league record from March onwards under him
07: W4 D6 L1
08: W3 D3 L4
09: W2 D5 L5
10: W5 D4 L3
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Our only March league win was 2-1 at home to Wigan. The only other March win was Reading 4-2 in the FA Cup.
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Our home record under him was poor. No surprise as his tactics were never to have the ball for more than 10 seconds. Oddly, it wasn't until Bruce that we managed to take advantage of playing at Villa Park. MON benefited greatly by being the manager to replace DOL and being given a fortune to spend by Lerner.
When told he needed to sell as well as buy players he realised we would get peanuts for some of his expensive squad fillers, people may understandably judge his record and jumped. I've yet to know a manager anywhere in the world that isn't expected to sell and buy. Like most things about MON, he thinks he's the exception. He's not. He's a very limited manager. He did a job picking us up and getting us moving in the right direction but a more ruthless board would have replaced him with somebody more progressive after a couple of seasons.
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Yes, but the board had little idea of what they were doing, sadly.
I don't recall a 2-1 win at home to Wigan. I always thought the pie-munchers had the evil eye on MO'N at B6; still, Martin's team always seemed to win at their place. Almost a flavour of his entire record, in fact.
Yet again, I point out that in three of his seasons, 'Knackererd by March' was followed by a 'Re-energised in April' spell but I think people prefer to believe what they want on this issue.
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We played Newcastle early in his reign and iirc ater the game their manager said our commitment etc was frightening.
For some reason this was a comfortable regulation win in but always remember it. Not sure it was Reoder but if you look at those 2 line ups they had better players - Mellberg and Barry, maybe Angel would make combined team
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/5266292.stm
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We played Newcastle early in his reign and iirc ater the game their manager said our commitment etc was frightening.
For some reason this was a comfortable regulation win in but always remember it. Not sure it was Reoder but if you look at those 2 line ups they had better players - Mellberg and Barry, maybe Angel would make combined team
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/5266292.stm
I remember going to Blackburn who were managed by Allardyce as probably the high water mark of his reign. We'd just signed Heskey (I know, but he'd scored on his debut), were on a great run, and absolutely dismantled them in front of a full away end (the whole stand I think). I remember Allardyce saying we were frightening and they couldn't match our commitment and skill. At that point it looked like we could go for the title let alone the top 4, but it was just a few weeks before Moscow.
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We played Newcastle early in his reign and iirc ater the game their manager said our commitment etc was frightening.
For some reason this was a comfortable regulation win in but always remember it. Not sure it was Reoder but if you look at those 2 line ups they had better players - Mellberg and Barry, maybe Angel would make combined team
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/5266292.stm
I remember going to Blackburn who were managed by Allardyce as probably the high water mark of his reign. We'd just signed Heskey (I know, but he'd scored on his debut), were on a great run, and absolutely dismantled them in front of a full away end (the whole stand I think). I remember Allardyce saying we were frightening and they couldn't match our commitment and skill. At that point it looked like we could go for the title let alone the top 4, but it was just a few weeks before Moscow.
Yes I was there too. We won 2-0 with Milner and Gabby scoring. Great away trip.
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Ron Saunders, Tony Barton, SGT, BFR and Brian Little achieved things. The reigns of John Gregory and MON were relatively good times but ultimately it was a case of 'close but no cigar'.
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I am not pro-MON but I do feel a devil's advocate is required on this thread.
In MON's defence - hear me out - in 2006 we all, fans and manager included no doubt, thought we had the new Abramovich and that our days of penny pinching were over. Yes, it was spent poorly (maybe we couldn't attract the marquee players, who knows?).
But, it was certainly a shock to my system in 2009 and 2010 when, despite this bright new era, we were still losing our star players. Actually, it started with Patrick Berger's comments to the effect Barry needed to leave to fulfill his ambitions, was it in 2008? That was a worrying sign. Barry wanting out was the start of the worries for me. That was a hammer blow, and in hindsight, shows that we were never going to break that glass ceiling with the Lerner regime. We managed fine after Barry left because Miner became a superb central midfielder.
However, the rumours about Milner going soon started. Put yourself in MON''s shoes. Not only are we not the new moneybags FC we thought we would be, we are now having our best players picked off by other clubs who are passing us out. Then, add to that, we are cutting our cloth. It would have been clear by mid 2010 that even matching our previous 6th place finishes was going to be a challenge in 2010-11 and, considering how much moaning there was by 2010 about repeatedly falling short of the top four, trying to sell a top ten finish was going to be a nightmare for him.
Yes, he was a c-word for what he did. He should have went that summer. However, let's not pretend his leaving was the only problem. The wheels were already falling off the Lerner project before then and, if Stephen Ireland was accepted as a makeweight against his wishes you can see how that would cause a flare up.
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I am not pro-MON but I do feel a devil's advocate is required on this thread.
In MON's defence - hear me out - in 2006 we all, fans and manager included no doubt, thought we had the new Abramovich and that our days of penny pinching were over. Yes, it was spent poorly (maybe we couldn't attract the marquee players, who knows?).
But, it was certainly a shock to my system in 2009 and 2010 when, despite this bright new era, we were still losing our star players. Actually, it started with Patrick Berger's comments to the effect Barry needed to leave to fulfill his ambitions, was it in 2008? That was a worrying sign. Barry wanting out was the start of the worries for me. That was a hammer blow, and in hindsight, shows that we were never going to break that glass ceiling with the Lerner regime. We managed fine after Barry left because Miner became a superb central midfielder.
However, the rumours about Milner going soon started. Put yourself in MON''s shoes. Not only are we not the new moneybags FC we thought we would be, we are now having our best players picked off by other clubs who are passing us out. Then, add to that, we are cutting our cloth. It would have been clear by mid 2010 that even matching our previous 6th place finishes was going to be a challenge in 2010-11 and, considering how much moaning there was by 2010 about repeatedly falling short of the top four, trying to sell a top ten finish was going to be a nightmare for him.
Yes, he was a c-word for what he did. He should have went that summer. However, let's not pretend his leaving was the only problem. The wheels were already falling off the Lerner project before then and, if Stephen Ireland was accepted as a makeweight against his wishes you can see how that would cause a flare up.
Two things about that.
First, when Lerner arrived he made it clear that he wasn't Abramovich II. In fact, when Manchester City started spending big there was a general feeling on here that we were doing it right and we didn't want to be bankrolled.
Second, the very first time that O'Neill didn't have unlimited funds and power - in other words, when he had to behave like every other manager - he was off.
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We played Newcastle early in his reign and iirc ater the game their manager said our commitment etc was frightening.
For some reason this was a comfortable regulation win in but always remember it. Not sure it was Reoder but if you look at those 2 line ups they had better players - Mellberg and Barry, maybe Angel would make combined team
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/5266292.stm
Carr, Bramble, Moore, Babayaro was close to a relegation standard defence, mind you looking at ours we seemed to have Whittingham at left back. Think Newcastle had a stronger 11 when they went down a few years later.
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We played Newcastle early in his reign and iirc ater the game their manager said our commitment etc was frightening.
For some reason this was a comfortable regulation win in but always remember it. Not sure it was Reoder but if you look at those 2 line ups they had better players - Mellberg and Barry, maybe Angel would make combined team
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/5266292.stm
I remember going to Blackburn who were managed by Allardyce as probably the high water mark of his reign. We'd just signed Heskey (I know, but he'd scored on his debut), were on a great run, and absolutely dismantled them in front of a full away end (the whole stand I think). I remember Allardyce saying we were frightening and they couldn't match our commitment and skill. At that point it looked like we could go for the title let alone the top 4, but it was just a few weeks before Moscow.
We had 51 points after that game, end of January 2009 so were well on course to get to 70 points which would've been our highest premer league total since 1993. We actually only got 63 points in 95/96 which surprised me. As we know won 2 of the final 13 league games.
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Martin O'Neill has finally lifted the lid on his controversial Aston Villa exit during his most honest interview since he quit the club.
In an exclusive chat with BirminghamLive's Claret & Blue podcast, O'Neill revealed he regrets leaving Villa - and the manner of his departure - in the summer of 2010. He insists he would "absolutely stay put", seek to mend his fractured relationship with Randy Lerner and try to push Villa forward if he could have his time again.
He left Bodymoor Heath under a storm when he handed in his resignation five days before the start of the 2010-11 Premier League season. It followed a tense phone call with Lerner the day after Villa's pre-season friendly against Valencia.
O'Neill, who took legal advice before handing his resignation to chief executive Paul Faulkner on August 8, later went on to win a case of constructive dismissal. His shock exit followed three sixth place finishes in the Premier League, along with League Cup final and FA Cup semi final appearances.
O'Neill told Claret & Blue that Randy Lerner's decision to sell James Milner to Manchester City was the tipping point that forced him to quit. The 70-year-old Irishman insists he was given assurances by Lerner that Villa would not only keep Milner but would look to bolster the team by attempting to sign Scott Parker, only for the American owner to go back on his word the very next day.
O'Neill asked Lerner to publicly explain to Villa fans that the goalposts had been moved and their expectations should be adjusted - but the billionaire refused to do so. It proved to be the final straw for the former Nottingham Forest European Cup star.
"The bottom line is that if you were asking me now - and in fact even if you'd asked me maybe a year after events - then I would certainly have stayed on at the football club and pushed on," revealed O'Neill.
"I have to say wherever I am as a football manager the owner of a football club has his own decisions to make, and maybe I didn't see that at the time.
"But again, in hindsight, you look and you think he's the owner, he's the one who has tried to improve the football club in many aspects, so that decision should rest with him probably.
"People said it was because he was asking for money and that's an absolute myth, that wasn't the case.
"I did say to Randy that at some stage along you will get your money back for the likes of James Milner, Ashley Young and Stewart Downing and you will make some money in those deals so let us try and push on. They did get the money back.
"I was expecting perhaps more from the likes of Steve Sidwell and Nigel Reo Coker. But overall I thought we had a squad certainly capable of being in the top six again.
"Can we push into those last two positions? That was it. But this idea that I was asking for a lot more was certainly not true."
In his most honest interview since leaving Villa 12 years ago, BirminghamLive asked O'Neill if he thought the manner of his departure has tainted his legacy in the eyes of the claret and blue faithful.
"I don't know," he said. "We finished with three top sixes and tried to push on. I'm not going to convince everyone.
"I did a little function last night and three Villa fans did come up to me. They weren't cantankerous or anything like that and they said we had some really great days there.
"But there will be lots of Villa fans who say, no, he left us in the lurch, that type of thing.
"I've said to you during this interview that if I was to do it again I'd absolutely stay put."
Speaking exclusively to BirminghamLive at a Second City hotel O'Neill insists what he achieved at the club - sixth place finishes and Wembley trips - should have been the start rather than the height of the club's ambitions.
"We finished in the top six but this is the interesting thing about it," he said. "I didn't think the top six was good enough for Aston Villa, that's really it.
"I wanted to be in the Champions League. I'd had the experience of that there at Celtic. There's nothing like it and there's nothing like that music being played. Imagine having that played at Villa Park. That was my drive, I didn't think the top six was good enough for Aston Villa."
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It was only the height of what we achived as you signed so much overpriced shite. Go fuck yourself MON. Wanker.
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The first time he had to do what almost every other manager has to do, he walked out. We knew that already.
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Lerner hadn't the first clue about how run a club which is why we ended up relegated.
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I'd have a lot more sympathy for him if it weren't for the insane number of players he spunked huge amounts of money on only to never use.
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I'm not surprised he regrets leaving, but slightly surprised that he admits it.
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let’s list the players we didn’t make back £ on
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Too little too late from the quitter!
Faux regret after all these years doesn't wash.
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Given the players he had at his disposal and the money he spent, his time at the club was about par for the course. I still think we should have had at least one top four finish in his time with us and that it was his poor squad management that meant we didn't.
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I wonder how many people regret leaving the villa
I think far more regret it than are thankful for it
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Regret as his career fell away after being Villa manager. Wasn’t he sacked everywhere he went after us?
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Too little too late from the quitter!
Faux regret after all these years doesn't wash.
He’s got a new book to promote
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Not saying much, but I dislike DOL more.
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The thing that really, really irritates me about that article, to the point of blood-boiling anger, way beyond anything else I or anyone else has ever encountered in life is:
Speaking exclusively to BirminghamLive at a Second City hotel
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Oh in managers I dislike he isn't even in the top 5...
TSM2
DOL
Gerrard
Billy McNeil
Turner
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Shows you how stubborn he was, when he didn't even listen to Alex Ferguson about not tiring out his players.
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Oh in managers I dislike he isn't even in the top 5...
TSM2
DOL
Gerrard
Billy McNeil
Turner
Still number 2 for me after O'Leary. O'Leary was a much more unpleasant human being, but didn't do half the damage O'Neill did.
O'Leary
O'Neill
Bruce
Lambert
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Billy McNeill
Billy McNeill (such a massive wanker that he takes the top 2 spots)
Mr Fickle
MON
Billy McNeill (he takes 4th as well the massive wanker)
Bruce
Is my top 6. Anyone who was around back then and doesn't have Billy 'I don't want to be here and don't care what happens here, but may as well pick up a paycheck until I go back to Celtic at the end of the season' McNeill in top spot needs to have a serious word with themself.
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Gerrard
Sherwood
Lambert
Bruce
O'Leary
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I couldn't name five because I try to remain positive about any Villa player or manager (not to disparage anybody else, of course) but the only ones I truly came to dislike were O'Leary & Lambert.
Even Gerrard, who I hated until he came to us, I warmed to slightly and didn't dislike him when he left - just thought he wasn't up to it and we needed a change.
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You're a good man, Rory!
I find it hard to list five players I actually like 🤣 In my lifetime supporting Villa since 1990, there are probably only 5 managers I didn't hate, and only two I loved.
Big Ron and Sir Brian are the only two. Others did well for us at times, but love, no.
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You're a good man, Rory!
I find it hard to list five players I actually like 🤣 In my lifetime supporting Villa since 1990, there are probably only 5 managers I didn't hate, and only two I loved.
Big Ron and Sir Brian are the only two. Others did well for us at times, but love, no.
I'm really not, I just find that I mainly watch football out of a sense of schadenfreude and hatred of other clubs, so if I started hating our own it would just be masochistic.
Thinking about it, there are MANY more players I dislike than managers. Irrespective of how they may have played for us, of our former players the ones I really don't like include: McCormack, Lescott, Richards, Agbonlahor, N'Zogbia, Southgate, Yorke, Downing, Delph, Drinkwater, Gardner, Bosnich, Grealish, Sutton, Berger, Ayew, Guzan... So plenty, really.
Love is a strong word, even in a sporting context (which obviously is distinct from how we feel about our family & friends). Villa mean a lot to me, and pretty much dictate my mood for at least 40% of the time, but I couldn't say I have ever 'loved' anybody involved with the club. Brian, God & Ian Taylor, maybe - and funnily enough all three were largely before my time.
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Billy McNeill
Billy McNeill (such a massive wanker that he takes the top 2 spots)
Mr Fickle
MON
Billy McNeill (he takes 4th as well the massive wanker)
Bruce
Is my top 6. Anyone who was around back then and doesn't have Billy 'I don't want to be here and don't care what happens here, but may as well pick up a paycheck until I go back to Celtic at the end of the season' McNeill in top spot needs to have a serious word with themself.
McNeil literally didn’t give a shit. Theres stuff in that ticket to the moon book that references how little of a shit he gave.
I kind of really liked O’Neil before he came and this clouds what he ending up doing to us, so mixed feelings really.
I actually don’t dislike Sherwood now, i was just hugely embarrassed that we were associated with him as he’s such an absolute gobshite really.
I think mine would be
McNeil-reasons above
O’Leary -just didnt like us at all
Sherwood-reasons above
Lambert/just associated with those terrible years
Bruce-depressing.
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Talk to any of the players from the time and they'll tell you McNeill had no affinity with the club at all. It was no secret in football that he was off to Celtic at the end of that season, he was on the verge of being sacked by Manchester City and the Master Businessman paid them compensation.
O'Leary thought he was doing us a favour by being here.
I could never warm to Gregory for some reason; it might have been his laddishness that grated.
I could never hate Sherwood because he gave me two of my best-ever days watching the Villa.
I don't like O'Neill for the obvious reasons.
The rest of the above mentioned couldn't help being shite so I have no real feelings one way or the other.
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For me, Gregory came across as a gobshite -possibly as a result of his fantastic record over the first eleven months as our manager.
I think he alienated a few players in a way that Brian Little couldn't have done.
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Bizarrely O'Leary had an interview recently before the Newcastle game (as he remains the last Villa manager to win up there) and said right at the end he thoroughly enjoyed managing us and he respected the tremendous backing he got from the fans. Funny how time can play tricks on the mind as I certainly agree with Dave in that he always seemed to regard managing us as a hassle and he spent his first season here mentioning Leeds in most interviews but it was let go as we had the nice run to 6th place.
With some managers personalities can play a part. It was a dismal 12 months under McLeish but I always thought he was a decent bloke who'd just underestimated the decision he made.
Would certainly rather have a pint with him and talk about his career in football than Gerrard if that was the choice.
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Of all the Villa managers I've spoken to, given the choice I'd most like to listen to Sir Graham, talk football with BFR and go for a pint with McLeish.
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Billy McNeill
Billy McNeill (such a massive wanker that he takes the top 2 spots)
Mr Fickle
MON
Billy McNeill (he takes 4th as well the massive wanker)
Bruce
Is my top 6. Anyone who was around back then and doesn't have Billy 'I don't want to be here and don't care what happens here, but may as well pick up a paycheck until I go back to Celtic at the end of the season' McNeill in top spot needs to have a serious word with themself.
Bingo.
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MON was on Prime tonight and I almost felt sorry for him. He genuinely seems to regret walking out ("about 15,000 times a day" was the quote I think) and admits it was a mistake. Must be a sickener to see the whole place rocking again and think what might have been.
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MON was on Prime tonight and I almost felt sorry for him. He genuinely seems to regret walking out ("about 15,000 times a day" was the quote I think) and admits it was a mistake. Must be a sickener to see the whole place rocking again and think what might have been.
I'll be honest, I liked MON. I really enjoyed being a Villa fan with him as manager, and I have fond memories.
Doesn't mean I agree with everything he did, far from it, but I do think what we saw was 'it'. There was no way we were improving from the 2009-10 season, and even if we'd sustained a Europa push in 2010-11, the money had run dry and I honestly think it was downhill from there, no matter what.
I'm of the opinion that, even if we'd made CL in 2009 or 2010, the infrastructure just wasn't there to sustain it, and we'd have come crashing down at some point.
With competent running of the place and good appointments, the decline needn't have been as dramatic as it was, but the 'good days', such as they were, were over.
I like to think we're on much more solid ground, with professionals running things these days.
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Rory, what you really loved was Randy Lerner's money. MON was a one trick pony with no Plan B. He was a shit (SHIT) manager/Coach who winged it with his massive budget. The day he was told he had to get rid of the highly paid players he signed but wasn't using he knew his reputation was shot and dumped us like a turd on his shoe.
If we'd dumped him after two seasons I may have a slightly different opinion but for me, he's right up their with Meghan Markle as the biggest grifter who somehow still has some respect in certain quarters.
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Agreed.
There was the usual Sky 4 and then a club reasonably well run (Everton) or a club spending big darts (ourselves between 2007-09) pushing them close. New money could make a bit of a difference then.
A few years later lowly Fulham brought in a highly rated manager (Magath), spunked £40 million and still went down.
O'Neill couldn't scarper away quick enough when he thought he might have a shot at the Liverpool job.
I wish he'd got it.
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Rory, what you really loved was Randy Lerner's money. MON was a one trick pony with no Plan B. He was a shit (SHIT) manager/Coach who winged it with his massive budget. The day he was told he had to get rid of the highly paid players he signed but wasn't using he knew his reputation was shot and dumped us like a turd on his shoe.
If we'd dumped him after two seasons I may have a slightly different opinion but for me, he's right up their with Meghan Markle as the biggest grifter who somehow still has some respect in certain quarters.
I respectfully disagree, Rudy.
I do not think MON's spend was quite as big as is made out - it's not as if we're talking the sustained dodgy investment of Chelsea or Man City. He took us from 16th to 6th with 18 months of £8-12m signings, and if you include the money we got back for Young, Downing, Milner, our net spend was considerable but not ridiculous.
I also don't think that he left us out of spite. I think he realised the senior management didn't know what they were doing, and I think the subsequent five years backed that up.
I'm not claiming nobody could've done better, but I do not think Lerner's investment and commitment was as it appears. I think Lerner is a prat who pissed away more money than he could afford, and either way, by 2011, he'd be trying to claw it back.
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I could start a very long rant here but suffice to say he’s not worth the effort anymore. The future is more exciting.
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Can't stand the bloke, brother summed him up,he throw his dummy out the pram when he couldn't get his own way
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Rory, what you really loved was Randy Lerner's money. MON was a one trick pony with no Plan B. He was a shit (SHIT) manager/Coach who winged it with his massive budget. The day he was told he had to get rid of the highly paid players he signed but wasn't using he knew his reputation was shot and dumped us like a turd on his shoe.
If we'd dumped him after two seasons I may have a slightly different opinion but for me, he's right up their with Meghan Markle as the biggest grifter who somehow still has some respect in certain quarters.
I respectfully disagree, Rudy.
I do not think MON's spend was quite as big as is made out - it's not as if we're talking the sustained dodgy investment of Chelsea or Man City. He took us from 16th to 6th with 18 months of £8-12m signings, and if you include the money we got back for Young, Downing, Milner, our net spend was considerable but not ridiculous.
I also don't think that he left us out of spite. I think he realised the senior management didn't know what they were doing, and I think the subsequent five years backed that up.
I'm not claiming nobody could've done better, but I do not think Lerner's investment and commitment was as it appears. I think Lerner is a prat who pissed away more money than he could afford, and either way, by 2011, he'd be trying to claw it back.
He left out of spite, at a time calculated to cause most harm, and much of the following five years was down to him.
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Rory, what you really loved was Randy Lerner's money. MON was a one trick pony with no Plan B. He was a shit (SHIT) manager/Coach who winged it with his massive budget. The day he was told he had to get rid of the highly paid players he signed but wasn't using he knew his reputation was shot and dumped us like a turd on his shoe.
If we'd dumped him after two seasons I may have a slightly different opinion but for me, he's right up their with Meghan Markle as the biggest grifter who somehow still has some respect in certain quarters.
I respectfully disagree, Rudy.
I do not think MON's spend was quite as big as is made out - it's not as if we're talking the sustained dodgy investment of Chelsea or Man City. He took us from 16th to 6th with 18 months of £8-12m signings, and if you include the money we got back for Young, Downing, Milner, our net spend was considerable but not ridiculous.
I also don't think that he left us out of spite. I think he realised the senior management didn't know what they were doing, and I think the subsequent five years backed that up.
I'm not claiming nobody could've done better, but I do not think Lerner's investment and commitment was as it appears. I think Lerner is a prat who pissed away more money than he could afford, and either way, by 2011, he'd be trying to claw it back.
He left out of spite, at a time calculated to cause most harm, and much of the following five years was down to him.
You almost certainly know more about the timing of his departure than me, Dave, so I'll yield on that one, but I disagree that our subsequent troubles were down to him.
We had plenty of opportunities to put things right and made a balls of it every time.
Even if you subscribe to the theory that he came in, wasted all of Lerner's money out of vanity, then stormed off, sabotaging the club for the next five years, there's no way he should've been allowed the power and influence to wreak such havoc.
Anyway, my initial point was supposed to be that he could never have built this squad and delivered the results and performances that we're seeing now; and any sense of 'what might have been' that he may feel about leaving us is misguided because there's no way we were breaking that next level under his management.
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He had unlimited funds and power. The first time he had either reduced he was off. That left a power vacuum as well as massive debts and an unmanageable wage bill, which impacted on us until Lerner left. It wasn't all his fault but he was the catalyst.
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He never should've been given either. Allowing one man the power to hobble your club for the next five years is a poor way to run anything.
Emery is the best manager we've had in my lifetime, but I'd find it troubling to think that were he to leave tomorrow* we'd still be feeling the impact in 2028.
*he won't, of course, because he's going to be here forever
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He never should've been given either. Allowing one man the power to hobble your club for the next five years is a poor way to run anything.
Emery is the best manager we've had in my lifetime, but I'd find it troubling to think that were he to leave tomorrow* we'd still be feeling the impact in 2028.
*he won't, of course, because he's going to be here forever
It's different now because we are well run with owners who have the cash to back us whatever happens. If Emery were to flounce out tomorrow, of course it would be a huge shock but we wouldn't be left with an uninterested, skint owner who couldn't afford all the over priced tat that O'Neill had saddled us with.
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You wasn’t alone Rory, I thought when we signed MON it was a masterstroke and I believed in the hype that surrounded him and him being the next Clough. I thoroughly enjoyed the first two years and carried on believing in him for longer than most. I think it started to sink in during that last season and there was too many questions asked regarding his transfers. The way he left us really showed us his true character.
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After much careful deliberation, weighing up all the good and bad from his time here I have to the conclusion that he's a pubeheaded twat that was a footballing dinsoaur tactics wise. P.s. He's a twat.
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I still can't believe he sold Gary Cahill and bought Emile Heskey.
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He left out of spite, at a time calculated to cause most harm, and much of the following five years was down to him.
Absolutely this. I've seen him interviewed recently where he's suggested he 'may' have done the wrong thing leaving as he did. He knows deep down what he did was spiteful and calculating but he still can't completely cleanse his conscience. For me he'll never be respected as a successful former Villa manager because he really wanted us to suffer when he left. And suffer we did.
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He left out of spite, at a time calculated to cause most harm, and much of the following five years was down to him.
Absolutely this. I've seen him interviewed recently where he's suggested he 'may' have done the wrong thing leaving as he did. He knows deep down what he did was spiteful and calculating but he still can't completely cleanse his conscience. For me he'll never be respected as a successful former Villa manager because he really wanted us to suffer when he left. And suffer we did.
I have a really good mate who is a Leicester fan and it was strange how he and fellow Foxes really didn't rave about him as he left them in a similar spot (different motivation) at the peak with little future planning.
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He looked like he felt like yesterday's man when shoving over to let Unai answer questions from the Amazon Prime team last week. Admitted he had been tankerous in 2010 and regretted resigning.
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Just about to finish his book, done the Villa section. I never really hated him and didn't understand some of the more extreme vitriol. Having read the chapter on his time with us I found myself more angry about the Moscow thing than his resignation. I always found him a likeable individual but he comes across the opposite on the book, conceited and somewhat arrogant. I did enjoy his time with us but don't look back with the fondness I do when Big Ron or Sir Graham were in charge.
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What did he say about Moscow?
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Whisper it, but SUE may, we hope, be confronted with the same issue sometime in the Spring.
The advantage he will have is that the strategic use of his squad players so far means he will be better equipped to put out competitive teams in all competitions.
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What did he say about Moscow?
I don't know about the book, but I assume it was the same as an interview I heard recently where he defended the team selection for Moscow by saying they were all first team footballers or something and not exactly the youth team....and didn't think the game was that important to the fans who were more concerned about the league.