Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: cdbearsfan on July 12, 2020, 02:24:25 PM
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Thought this should get its own thread rather than being hidden in the match thread, not to give the bellend publicity, but to try to ensure that the proper authorities can take action.
https://twitter.com/wilfriedzaha/status/1282273543208808450
If anyone knows the utter bellend that has abused Zaha (and Ian Wright, previously) please can they report him to the club/police so we can get the ****** banned.
Also feel free to condemn away in here so we can show that his views don't represent Villa.
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Scumbag is right. Hope the ****** gets banned by the club and thrown off social media.
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Total prick.
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I hope he gets locked up for a long time.
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(https://i.ibb.co/rsZBGxF/Screenshot-20200712-143622.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rsZBGxF)
(https://i.ibb.co/L93QFx3/Screenshot-20200712-143706.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L93QFx3)
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Good to hear he'll be banned.
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What a piece of shit, and the whole it was a joke and wasn't intenional, ******.
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He isn’t one of us. Disgusting piece of shit
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The abuse in those messages is totally unacceptable and the club have handled it well but calling him a whinging twat would be fair after this match.
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Not one of us. Ban him.
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Quickly scanning through the messages on Twitter there seems to be a suggestion the message was posted by a school kid.
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I'd imagine he's old enough to know better. Especially as he has already done similar to Ian Wright. You'd imagine the parents must be lovely people... 😒
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Find the ******. Punish him. Make an example of him.
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Scumbag. Not welcome at VP.
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Find the c***. Punish him. Make an example of him.
And lock him up.
Quick question for Twitter users, is it normal the user has only made 2 posts? Seems a bit strange to me but no real idea how twitter works.
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I'd imagine he's old enough to know better.
If someone's old enough to write such things on Twitter, they're old enough to face the consequences.
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Find the c***. Punish him. Make an example of him.
And lock him up.
Quick question for Twitter users, is it normal the user has only made 2 posts? Seems a bit strange to me but no real idea how twitter works.
My thought also. There are plenty fake and bots, who automatically get followers and follow.
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He has abused Ian Wright before. I'd imagine the reason he has so few posts is because he's deleted loads.
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Or he only comments on other people's posts? I assume it only counts as a post if an account makes its own post, comments don't count?
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Ah, maybe that's it. Hadn't thought of that.
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Twitter is a total swamp, hate it.
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He’s 12?!
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He’s 12?!
Age or IQ?
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How do you get to be so full of hate at such a young age? Depressing. I mean it's shit if it's an adult, but this somehow makes it worse.
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West Midland Police have taken a 12 year old in for questioning.
Where I live, a 14 year old burgled a house last week. His parents were also arrested for being bad parents.
Should happen to this 12 year olds parents as well.
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OMG he’s 12 !!
So if he’s saying he was drunk ( zero excuse ) his parents need prosecuting for that as well!!
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He’s 12?!
if this is correct, then it is very disturbing to hear that the mind of a child of such a young age has been poisoned to hold such views.
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He's 12 and giving him a thread of his own just allows him to think he's clever. He needs educating, not immortalising.
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He isn’t one of us. Disgusting piece of shit
Not one of us. Ban him.
I’m not being deliberately provocative here. It’s subtle so bear with me and have a think before quickly responding.
The statement he’s not one of us, was quickly challenged on Twitter and at the time I agreed when I saw the response to that, that you are getting upset about the wrong thing.
Yet, seeing it here a few times, I do agree with the sentiment. I wish he/she wasn’t a villa fan, will hopefully get banned (and experience with the club on racism at a game this season was very very good, so I do trust them on that), and I hope/trust they are not on H&V.
But it’s too easy to do that ‘othering’, that implies none of our fans are racist and say it’s not part of us. It is at times, consciously or unconciously. Got to rush out to work so not at my most carefully worded, but hope this makes sense. I think especially in the context of BLM, we need to own it a bit more, and (I’ll get accused of being a snowflake, don’t care), on average check ourselves a bit more too.
A bit of context. You’ll be bored of me referencing Akala’s everyday racism video on the guardian website, but ah here you go again only 3.5mins from 2015 that hasn’t aged a bit. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2015/mar/18/everyday-racism-what-should-we-do
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He's 12 and giving him a thread of his own just allows him to think he's clever. He needs educating, not immortalising.
I started the thread to give it a wider audience in case someone on here knew the offender and was able to identify him.
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Effin ell... 12?
Doesn't learn being an asshole on his own.
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Exactly. I'd be arresting his parents at the same time.
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Good video, that. Thanks Purple Trousers.
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He's 12 and giving him a thread of his own just allows him to think he's clever. He needs educating, not immortalising.
I started the thread to give it a wider audience in case someone on here knew the offender and was able to identify him.
I wasn't having a go at you mate.
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Effin ell... 12?
Doesn't learn being an asshole on his own.
Exactly. I'd be arresting his parents at the same time.
There is a big question mark here about parenting and general household attitude and language.
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Twelve, bloody hell. You do have to wonder what sort of upbringing he's had to come out with something like that.
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He's 12 and giving him a thread of his own just allows him to think he's clever. He needs educating, not immortalising.
I started the thread to give it a wider audience in case someone on here knew the offender and was able to identify him.
I wasn't having a go at you mate.
No worries. 🙂
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He isn’t one of us. Disgusting piece of shit
Not one of us. Ban him.
I’m not being deliberately provocative here. It’s subtle so bear with me and have a think before quickly responding.
The statement he’s not one of us, was quickly challenged on Twitter and at the time I agreed when I saw the response to that, that you are getting upset about the wrong thing.
Yet, seeing it here a few times, I do agree with the sentiment. I wish he/she wasn’t a villa fan, will hopefully get banned (and experience with the club on racism at a game this season was very very good, so I do trust them on that), and I hope/trust they are not on H&V.
But it’s too easy to do that ‘othering’, that implies none of our fans are racist and say it’s not part of us. It is at times, consciously or unconciously. Got to rush out to work so not at my most carefully worded, but hope this makes sense. I think especially in the context of BLM, we need to own it a bit more, and (I’ll get accused of being a snowflake, don’t care), on average check ourselves a bit more too.
A bit of context. You’ll be bored of me referencing Akala’s everyday racism video on the guardian website, but ah here you go again only 3.5mins from 2015 that hasn’t aged a bit. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2015/mar/18/everyday-racism-what-should-we-do
Totally agree.
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12 years old. If anyone saw the Sky Black Lives Matter piece before the Test Match Michael Holding made the point that no child is born racist so it begs the question what or who has made this kid want to post such revolting abuse.
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Looking at what he said, it was an odd choice of phraseology for a twelve year old.
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I agree. It looks far too sophisticated for a 12 year old to post of his own volition.
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And the materials too. Perhaps it speaks to the evils of the internet, but I'd have had no knowledge of the significance of the word 'c**n' (censoring for obvious reasons) when I was that age.
Awful stuff. Hope they do look into his home environment.
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Depends on how much he's heard that sort of terminology growing up. If such things have been said on a regular basis at home then he'll know them and the meaning.
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Depends on how much he's heard that sort of terminology growing up. If such things have been said on a regular basis at home then he'll know them and the meaning.
Indeed true
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Again, though, would the c word be widespread amongst the generation that would have a twelve year old child? It's very seventies Alf Garnett - wouldn't something beginning with 'n' be much more likely?
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My oldest girl is 13 years old. I can almost bet if I asked her she would never have heard of that c word.
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It's definitely a term still used sadly.
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She probably wouldn't be spending her time talking to like-minded racists online though. This brat will have picked up this sort of terminology on 4chan or some such place.
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Looking at what he said, it was an odd choice of phraseology for a twelve year old.
Have to agree Dave. To have knowledge of the KKK at that age does not seem normal. Someone posing as a kid to post abuse?
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I'm not sure the police would arrest a 12 year old if they didn't think it was him.
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I reckon I had heard of the KKK when I was twelve.
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KKK was in the year 9 syllabus for history. Perhaps they have older brothers/sisters?
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Now she’s heard of that because she’s been exposed to Trumps rantings.
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Kids today have access to far more information, both good and bad, than we did.
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Kids today have access to far more information, both good and bad, than we did.
Yep, that's it in a nutshell.
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Yes. Absolutely. Their access to crackpot twitter conspiracy theorists knows no bounds.
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My guess is that the police will also be going back to arrest parents and/or siblings.
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I’ve a 12 year old lad
the C word is widely used now I’ve never heard him use it but no doubt at school it’s the same as fuck used to be 30-50 years ago
without knowing the background environment that the lad had been bought up in it’s difficult to understand how he can post such vitriol on the internet but as had been said before it’s common place on social media now
I’m an old Dad and can’t say I fully understand some of the stuff that goes on today but it wasn’t perfect back in the 70’s either when I was a kid
but social media does give a voice to everyone and is as dangerous as it is a good thing
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I reckon I had heard of the KKK when I was twelve.
It's the association of dressing up as a member of the KKK to go round Zaha's that I find hard to imagine coming from the mind of a 12 year old. I fully accept I might be naive though.
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Like I said, he's probably read it on 4chan or somewhere similar.
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I’ve a 12 year old lad
the C word is widely used now I’ve never heard him use it but no doubt at school it’s the same as fuck used to be 30-50 years ago
without knowing the background environment that the lad had been bought up in it’s difficult to understand how he can post such vitriol on the internet but as had been said before it’s common place on social media now
I’m an old Dad and can’t say I fully understand some of the stuff that goes on today but it wasn’t perfect back in the 70’s either when I was a kid
but social media does give a voice to everyone and is as dangerous as it is a good thing
Are you talking about the same c word ? My lad would know c**t but not c**n, I'm 100% sure
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I’ve a 12 year old lad
the C word is widely used now I’ve never heard him use it but no doubt at school it’s the same as fuck used to be 30-50 years ago
without knowing the background environment that the lad had been bought up in it’s difficult to understand how he can post such vitriol on the internet but as had been said before it’s common place on social media now
I’m an old Dad and can’t say I fully understand some of the stuff that goes on today but it wasn’t perfect back in the 70’s either when I was a kid
but social media does give a voice to everyone and is as dangerous as it is a good thing
Are you talking about the same c word ? My lad would know c**t but not c**n, I'm 100% sure
I’m talking about the see you next Tuesday word I didn’t realise it was the other c word
he would not know that one
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KKK was in the year 9 syllabus for history. Perhaps they have older brothers/sisters?
My daughter is in year 8 has been learning about Malcolm x and the kkk in history before George Floyd was murdered.
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I know the thread was started before it was known the abuser of wilf Zaha was 12 years old, but we do have to be careful labelling someone so young a racist scumbag. To put this context I grew up in a multi ethnic area and have spent the last 20 odd years working in the union movement defending equalities and actively campaigning against all forms of discrimination, both racial and otherwise.
What the kid said was disgusting and quite rightly the police have got involved, but if every adult is a product of their environment, then every child, which is what this person is, is most definitely heavily influenced if not largely created by their environment. No child is the fully formed finished article, and this kid whoever it is will hopefully have other influences as his life goes on to encourage him to see a wider and more progressive view of life and the complex tapestry that makes our world up. Despite this incident being high profile and horrible, what worries me more is the casual every day racism hidden as ‘banter’ you get down our ground every game.
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Always find it bizarre we teach American history over ours or European or Asian or african history. No wonder we've got a generation of people over here obsessed with the likes of Trump and everything that happens in America. Cultural pollution.
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Always find it bizarre we teach American history over ours or European or Asian or african history. No wonder we've got a generation of people over here obsessed with the likes of Trump and everything that happens in America. Cultural pollution.
Agree completely. The whole thing is just very sad, how can a boy of 12 come out with this sort of thing, makes me angry and sad at the same time
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Some of the replies to the WMP tweet about this kid are so, so fucking depressing.
"OMG! IT'S ONLY WORDS! HOW CAN WORDS HURT ANYONE! YOU ARE IGNORING ASIAN GROOMING GANGS!"
I fucking hate what this country has become.
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I hope that this kid is given some educational tools to stop him becoming a racist adult.
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IMHO racism will never be dealt with because it upsets society's view of the human race being superior or civilised. You're hearing it now with people and what they're saying about that 12 year old: he was obviously brought up badly, children aren't born racist blah blah blah. Now you do get moulded by peers and adults undoubtably, but the instinct to mistrust people different from you is there from birth. It's hotwired into everyone like Read only memory on a pc. It was there for a reason when it mattered for survival but apparently we all should be able to overwrite it now. Bottom line is you can ignore it but you can't stop the message popping up. Same as flight or fight or any of the other animal instincts that conflict with modern day morals and our view of ourselves as superior. Bottom line is you or I could be swapped with a baby from 50,000 years ago and I'd have no trouble adapting to braining the tribe in the next valley, and likewise my replacement would soon settle in to droning on about our strike force.
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With respect, that's nonsense.
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Some of the replies to the WMP tweet about this kid are so, so fucking depressing.
"OMG! IT'S ONLY WORDS! HOW CAN WORDS HURT ANYONE! YOU ARE IGNORING ASIAN GROOMING GANGS!"
I fucking hate what this country has become.
There's a worryingly large element (and I even hesitate to say minority) in British society who see everything and everybody else as one big anti-Brexit conspiracy and use "grooming gangs" as a catch-all argument against anyone who isn't as bigoted as them.
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Some of the replies to the WMP tweet about this kid are so, so fucking depressing.
"OMG! IT'S ONLY WORDS! HOW CAN WORDS HURT ANYONE! YOU ARE IGNORING ASIAN GROOMING GANGS!"
I fucking hate what this country has become.
I could do with an Asian grooming gang right now, the state of my barnet.
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I don't agree. When i was 5, and half the school were picking on the kid with learning difficulties and bright ginger hair, I really don't think all their parents or older siblings had taught them to pick on gingers with learning difficulties. It's instinct Imo but no, we can't be animals, we're better than that.
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So as an experiment I asked my 13 year old daughter if she had heard of that c word. She thought I was referring to cocoon and definitely has never heard of the word. She’s bright as well.
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Some of the replies to the WMP tweet about this kid are so, so fucking depressing.
"OMG! IT'S ONLY WORDS! HOW CAN WORDS HURT ANYONE! YOU ARE IGNORING ASIAN GROOMING GANGS!"
I fucking hate what this country has become.
I agree, it’s really quite sad.
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So as an experiment I asked my 13 year old daughter if she had heard of that c word. She thought I was referring to cocoon and definitely has never heard of the word. She’s bright as well.
There's your problem when it comes to this topic!
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12 years old. The mind boggles.
The c**n word isn’t one I’ve personally heard for a very long time.
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I don't agree. When i was 5, and half the school were picking on the kid with learning difficulties and bright ginger hair, I really don't think all their parents or older siblings had taught them to pick on gingers with learning difficulties. It's instinct Imo but no, we can't be animals, we're better than that.
God how many times have white people used the ginger example as some sort of comparator to what black people have experienced for many years. There may be certain things that are hot wired into us such as flight or fight, but it is a complete and utter cop out to even hint at the basis for racism being an inherent distrust of the ‘other’. That simply ignores all the systematic institutional organised racism that plays on people’s insecurities, economic and educational poverty etc. This country has had 40 years of deindustrialisation that has impoverished traditionally white working class communities both economically and culturally and the same elite in particular but not just in the Tory party who propelled this destruction of community, have systematically and purposely created division in our society particularly around race and ‘other’ people being to blame. Brexit has just opened the door for this shite to be acceptable to say publicly in some people’s eyes.
To say this is simply down to hot wiring of the human mind is a complete and utter cop out.
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well you can only go from personal experience. In my 50 years i've seen whites being racist about blacks, whites being racist about asians, asians being racist about blacks, blacks being racist about asians. asians being racist about asians . whites and asians being racist about jews. blacks and asians being racist about whites. Seems pretty across the board to my mind.
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well you can only go from personal experience. In my 50 years i've seen whites being racist about blacks, whites being racist about asians, asians being racist about blacks, blacks being racist about asians. asians being racist about asians . whites and asians being racist about jews. blacks and asians being racist about whites. Seems pretty across the board to my mind.
That’s one of the problems though isn’t it, everyone has a ‘personal’ experience. I went to a rough comprehensive in the mid 80’s and there were proper rough black v white football games with degrees of racism on both sides. But the idea that white people per se have suffered racism to the same extent as black people because individuals have heard this in their life, is frankly dangerous and is just not an accurate reflection of racism in this country over time. People who spout racist crap always have a personal reason of why there saying what they say
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there is no hierarchy in racism to my mind. It's as shitty to everyone whether you live in a country where the majority or establishment is white or black or asian. The point i'm making is its there to start with whatever your social conditioning. To blame an upturn in white racism on brexit or the tories is daft. I've heard some batshit crazy reasons why asians or blacks are subhuman by whites, blacks and asians (and i'm sure if i wasn't white i would have heard similar reasons why whites are subhuman). Its instinct, we kid ourselves we're anything other than apes with pretensions, and until we recognise that fact, the best that's gonna happen is no-one will say it, but will still think it.
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Nope.
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well you can only go from personal experience. In my 50 years i've seen whites being racist about blacks, whites being racist about asians, asians being racist about blacks, asians being racist about backs. asians being racist about asians . whites and asians being racist about jews. blacks and asians being racist about whites. Seems pretty across the board to my mind.
I’m not quite sure what your point/logic is here, but I think it may miss the point of systemic oppression, majority influence etc. I could equally cite examples of every race not being racist to every other race.
My 12 month old is copying my behaviour now. We start shaping our offspring young.
My response before I started reading the rest hasn’t changed, which was: no. You can go from things *other* than your own experience. You can talk to others and learn about *their* experience.
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I have never heard anyone describe “whites” as sub-humans.
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there is no hierarchy in racism to my mind. It's as shitty to everyone whether you live in a country where the majority or establishment is white or black or asian. The point i'm making is its there to start with whatever your social conditioning. To blame an upturn in white racism on brexit or the tories is daft. I've heard some batshit crazy reasons why asians or blacks are subhuman by whites, blacks and asians (and i'm sure if i wasn't white i would have heard similar reasons why whites are subhuman). Its instinct, we kid ourselves we're anything other than apes with pretensions, and until we recognise that fact, the best that's gonna happen is no-one will say it, but will still think it.
Your ideas take away any personal responsibility for racist behaviour and societal institutional racism that clearly exists and is well documented. If following your ideas then racism is a natural human behavioural instinct. I’m afraid without getting personal because I don’t know you, but your excusing racist behaviour.
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there is no hierarchy in racism to my mind. It's as shitty to everyone whether you live in a country where the majority or establishment is white or black or asian. The point i'm making is its there to start with whatever your social conditioning. To blame an upturn in white racism on brexit or the tories is daft. I've heard some batshit crazy reasons why asians or blacks are subhuman by whites, blacks and asians (and i'm sure if i wasn't white i would have heard similar reasons why whites are subhuman). Its instinct, we kid ourselves we're anything other than apes with pretensions, and until we recognise that fact, the best that's gonna happen is no-one will say it, but will still think it.
I’m struggling to keep up with all that seems wrong with what you are saying.
Absolutely no doubt whatsoever Brexit and trump/Johnson public racist comments have increased racism.
The point is it has given permission, enabled, maybe I should say unleashed what is latent.
I know someone who said the only times they’ve experienced racist abuse was after 9/11 or 7/7 (I forget) and in the aftermath of Brexit. Did you see some of the things that happened? Perhaps no point giving examples but the crime stats are very very clearly out there.
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well you can only go from personal experience. In my 50 years i've seen whites being racist about blacks, whites being racist about asians, asians being racist about blacks, asians being racist about backs. asians being racist about asians . whites and asians being racist about jews. blacks and asians being racist about whites. Seems pretty across the board to my mind.
I’m not quite sure what your point/logic is here, but I think it may miss the point of systemic oppression, majority influence etc. I could equally cite examples of every race not being racist to every other race.
My 12 month old is copying my behaviour now. We start shaping our offspring young.
My response before I started reading the rest hasn’t changed, which was: no. You can go from things *other* than your own experience. You can talk to others and learn about *their* experience.
ha, i've just listed whites being racists against other races and i'm not taking others experience into account? Quite the opposite to my mind.. I mean i would have to be friends with these other races to hear them being racist surely, or do people randomly spout racist stuff people they don't know? Not my experience.
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there is no hierarchy in racism to my mind. It's as shitty to everyone whether you live in a country where the majority or establishment is white or black or asian. The point i'm making is its there to start with whatever your social conditioning. To blame an upturn in white racism on brexit or the tories is daft. I've heard some batshit crazy reasons why asians or blacks are subhuman by whites, blacks and asians (and i'm sure if i wasn't white i would have heard similar reasons why whites are subhuman). Its instinct, we kid ourselves we're anything other than apes with pretensions, and until we recognise that fact, the best that's gonna happen is no-one will say it, but will still think it.
Your ideas take away any personal responsibility for racist behaviour and societal institutional racism that clearly exists and is well documented. If following your ideas then racism is a natural human behavioural instinct. I’m afraid without getting personal because I don’t know you, but your excusing racist behaviour.
We'll have to agree to disagree. You obviously think humanity and society has evolved above racism. I don't think we have. Once we accept that, then you can deal with it properly
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well you can only go from personal experience. In my 50 years i've seen whites being racist about blacks, whites being racist about asians, asians being racist about blacks, asians being racist about backs. asians being racist about asians . whites and asians being racist about jews. blacks and asians being racist about whites. Seems pretty across the board to my mind.
I’m not quite sure what your point/logic is here, but I think it may miss the point of systemic oppression, majority influence etc. I could equally cite examples of every race not being racist to every other race.
My 12 month old is copying my behaviour now. We start shaping our offspring young.
My response before I started reading the rest hasn’t changed, which was: no. You can go from things *other* than your own experience. You can talk to others and learn about *their* experience.
ha, i've just listed whites being racists against other races and i'm not taking others experience into account? Quite the opposite to my mind.. I mean i would have to be friends with these other races to hear them being racist surely, or do people randomly spout racist stuff people they don't know? Not my experience.
I've had plenty of people I've never met before expect me to agree with their opinion of 'them'.
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I have never heard anyone describe “whites” as sub-humans.
Yep that stood out for me. I’d wager my repeated experience of being white in Africa and the privileges I clearly get by MY skin colour (acknowledgeding presumed economic power/privilege) are rather different to the average Black person in the UK.
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there is no hierarchy in racism to my mind. It's as shitty to everyone whether you live in a country where the majority or establishment is white or black or asian. The point i'm making is its there to start with whatever your social conditioning. To blame an upturn in white racism on brexit or the tories is daft. I've heard some batshit crazy reasons why asians or blacks are subhuman by whites, blacks and asians (and i'm sure if i wasn't white i would have heard similar reasons why whites are subhuman). Its instinct, we kid ourselves we're anything other than apes with pretensions, and until we recognise that fact, the best that's gonna happen is no-one will say it, but will still think it.
Your ideas take away any personal responsibility for racist behaviour and societal institutional racism that clearly exists and is well documented. If following your ideas then racism is a natural human behavioural instinct. I’m afraid without getting personal because I don’t know you, but your excusing racist behaviour.
We'll have to agree to disagree. You obviously think humanity and society has evolved above racism. I don't think we have. Once we accept that, then you can deal with it properly
that’s not even logical?
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Its instinct, we kid ourselves we're anything other than apes with pretensions, and until we recognise that fact, the best that's gonna happen is no-one will say it, but will still think it.
So how do lots of people manage to be not racist then?
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well you can only go from personal experience. In my 50 years i've seen whites being racist about blacks, whites being racist about asians, asians being racist about blacks, blacks being racist about asians. asians being racist about asians . whites and asians being racist about jews. blacks and asians being racist about whites. Seems pretty across the board to my mind.
No. With respect this is load of bollocks and you really need to think about this. We are not talking about casual racism which is wrong in itself we are talking about an ingrained sense of self superiority and firm belief that darkies are inferior.
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Its instinct, we kid ourselves we're anything other than apes with pretensions, and until we recognise that fact, the best that's gonna happen is no-one will say it, but will still think it.
So how do lots of people manage to be not racist then?
Quite. And how come when you ask young children how their friends are different to them, they'll generally tell you everything from how long their hair is, to who their favourite superhero is, and what lunch is their favourite, but they'll almost never mention the fact their skin is a different colour.
Giving racists a free pass because "they're just doing what comes natural to them" is simply wrong in all sorts of ways.
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The point i'm making is its there to start with whatever your social conditioning.
Complete nonsense. Children aren't born racist, it's a completely learned behaviour. I'm proud that my kids go to a school with a high percentage of Asian kids, and they all get on brilliantly. Our youngest (5 years old) has never even mentioned the colour of her friends' skin, it just doesn't occur to her that there's a difference.
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well you can only go from personal experience. In my 50 years i've seen whites being racist about blacks, whites being racist about asians, asians being racist about blacks, blacks being racist about asians. asians being racist about asians . whites and asians being racist about jews. blacks and asians being racist about whites. Seems pretty across the board to my mind.
No. With respect this is load of bollocks and you really need to think about this. We are not talking about casual racism which is wrong in itself we are talking about an ingrained sense of self superiority and firm belief that darkies are inferior.
With respect i'm not talking about casual racism. I once worked for a company where my jaw was permenatly dislocated by some of the stuff they said about each other.
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Its instinct, we kid ourselves we're anything other than apes with pretensions, and until we recognise that fact, the best that's gonna happen is no-one will say it, but will still think it.
So how do lots of people manage to be not racist then?
They learn from experience. Doesn't mean the programming isn't there to start with
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well you can only go from personal experience. In my 50 years i've seen whites being racist about blacks, whites being racist about asians, asians being racist about blacks, asians being racist about backs. asians being racist about asians . whites and asians being racist about jews. blacks and asians being racist about whites. Seems pretty across the board to my mind.
I’m not quite sure what your point/logic is here, but I think it may miss the point of systemic oppression, majority influence etc. I could equally cite examples of every race not being racist to every other race.
My 12 month old is copying my behaviour now. We start shaping our offspring young.
My response before I started reading the rest hasn’t changed, which was: no. You can go from things *other* than your own experience. You can talk to others and learn about *their* experience.
ha, i've just listed whites being racists against other races and i'm not taking others experience into account? Quite the opposite to my mind.. I mean i would have to be friends with these other races to hear them being racist surely, or do people randomly spout racist stuff people they don't know? Not my experience.
You said you can only go from your own experience.
I disagreed.
Either way, just because you can name every type of racism does not prove that it is inherent. That is not a logical deduction. It doesn’t preclude that people learn racism.
The fact that some don’t become overtly racist you presumably would argue is because they unlearned it?
If you are arguing it’s inherent we are selfish, we are self regarding rather than other regarding you might have some grounds, but even that I’ve been watching closely and it’s amazing how little AV wants to share and feed her parents from so young.
Given we’re of different races, I’d be interested who you’d advise she’s supposed to have inherent hatred off, both of us as we all have different skin colours?
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The point i'm making is its there to start with whatever your social conditioning.
Complete nonsense. Children aren't born racist, it's a completely learned behaviour. I'm proud that my kids go to a school with a high percentage of Asian kids, and they all get on brilliantly. Our youngest (5 years old) has never even mentioned the colour of her friends' skin, it just doesn't occur to her that there's a difference.
Absolutely correct. I would say look at how very young children deal with it and learn from that.
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There’s just so much here that needs unpacking sick beggar. I got to go do my paperwork, but appreciating you are seeeking to understand and consider how real change is possible, yet what you say seeems to be pretty alarming to (?)everyone else so far. I’m interested if you know many that agree with you that racial hatred is natural? You might need to give this some thought.
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Its instinct, we kid ourselves we're anything other than apes with pretensions, and until we recognise that fact, the best that's gonna happen is no-one will say it, but will still think it.
So how do lots of people manage to be not racist then?
They learn from experience. Doesn't mean the programming isn't there to start with
I think the strongest you can argue for (and maybe you have been subject to?) is epigenetics, where chromosomes get marked in offspring in association with eg traumatic stimuli. Beyond that, I think your argument comes across as being ignorant and frankly, risks being offensive.
Thanks for engaging btw, I know it can feel like everyone is coming down on you, so appreciate communication staying open so we can hopefully learn from each other.
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well you can only go from personal experience. In my 50 years i've seen whites being racist about blacks, whites being racist about asians, asians being racist about blacks, asians being racist about backs. asians being racist about asians . whites and asians being racist about jews. blacks and asians being racist about whites. Seems pretty across the board to my mind.
I’m not quite sure what your point/logic is here, but I think it may miss the point of systemic oppression, majority influence etc. I could equally cite examples of every race not being racist to every other race.
My 12 month old is copying my behaviour now. We start shaping our offspring young.
My response before I started reading the rest hasn’t changed, which was: no. You can go from things *other* than your own experience. You can talk to others and learn about *their* experience.
ha, i've just listed whites being racists against other races and i'm not taking others experience into account? Quite the opposite to my mind.. I mean i would have to be friends with these other races to hear them being racist surely, or do people randomly spout racist stuff people they don't know? Not my experience.
You said you can only go from your own experience.
I disagreed.
Either way, just because you can name every type of racism does not prove that it is inherent. That is not a logical deduction. It doesn’t preclude that people learn racism.
The fact that some don’t become overtly racist you presumably would argue is because they unlearned it?
If you are arguing it’s inherent we are selfish, we are self regarding rather than other regarding you might have some grounds, but even that I’ve been watching closely and it’s amazing how little AV wants to share and feed her parents from so young.
Given we’re of different races, I’d be interested who you’d advise she’s supposed to have inherent hatred off, both of us as we all have different skin colours?
what? It''s not hatred. Its a genetic trait that serves no purpose anymore like an appendix. The problem is you and i are no different from the same guy who lived 50000 years ago when it did serve a purpose. We just haven't deleted it genetically. Society thinks we've overcome this fear of the different or should at least rise above it. I don't agree we have, and until we face it head on rather than claiming everyone learns it from their parents or peers then all you will do if at best is hide it, rather than get rid of it.
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There’s just so much here that needs unpacking sick beggar. I got to go do my paperwork, but appreciating you are seeeking to understand and consider how real change is possible, yet what you say seeems to be pretty alarming to (?)everyone else so far. I’m interested if you know many that agree with you that racial hatred is natural? You might need to give this some thought.
It's natural. Desirable, good. Not at all. We just disagree on the way to deal with it.
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Racism is not a genetic trait. Not in any way. That's being polite. It just isn't.
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Two questions
What are your fears?
What if you were entirely wrong? How would you be able to find out if racial hatred fear was or wasn’t innate?
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Racism is not a genetic trait. Not in any way. That's being polite. It just isn't.
I disagree. everyone is scared of different on a raw instinct level.
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No they're not.
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Two questions
What are your fears?
What if you were entirely wrong? How would you be able to find out if racial hatred fear was or wasn’t innate?
Probably the same as yours
Well you just look at what racists say.. Foreigners taking our jobs etc.. That's a base fear that goes all the way back to sitting in a cave worrying your crops are gonna be pinched
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Fear of not getting one's perceived fair share of scarce resources may be an inbuilt human trait, but it's got bugger all to do with the colour of a person's skin. How many different races do you think prehistoric man tended to see?
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Two questions
What are your fears?
What if you were entirely wrong? How would you be able to find out if racial hatred fear was or wasn’t innate?
Probably the same as yours
Well you just look at what racists say.. Foreigners taking our jobs etc.. That's a base fear that goes all the way back to sitting in a cave worrying your crops are gonna be pinched
It's a mistake to assume that everyone thinks like you do.
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Two questions
What are your fears?
What if you were entirely wrong? How would you be able to find out if racial hatred fear was or wasn’t innate?
Probably the same as yours
Well you just look at what racists say.. Foreigners taking our jobs etc.. That's a base fear that goes all the way back to sitting in a cave worrying your crops are gonna be pinched
It's a mistake to assume that everyone thinks like you do.
oh god. here we go.....
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Fear of not getting one's perceived fair share of scarce resources may be an inbuilt human trait, but it's got bugger all to do with the colour of a person's skin. How many different races do you think prehistoric man tended to see?
larf. its fear of difference. Are you saying people who want the poles to go back to Europe aren't racist because they have white skin?
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Fear of not getting one's perceived fair share of scarce resources may be an inbuilt human trait, but it's got bugger all to do with the colour of a person's skin. How many different races do you think prehistoric man tended to see?
larf. its fear of difference. Are you saying people who want the poles to go back to Europe aren't racist because they have white skin?
I don't think anyone would suggest that.
I'd suggest that a toddler called Smith would be unlikely to have an innate fear of one called Kowalski.
If an adult, adolescent or, as in the case that started this thread, slightly older child was constantly being told that Polish people were untrustworthy, violent, prone to criminality, or any other unwanted trait you care to name, then they might dislike the adult Kowalksi.
Prejudice is learned, not genetic.
What you're saying isn't some universal wisdom you've come out with that the rest of us are too blind to see or too scared to admit. It's dangerous, pseudo-scientific bullshit.
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Two questions
What are your fears?
What if you were entirely wrong? How would you be able to find out if racial hatred fear was or wasn’t innate?
Probably the same as yours
Well you just look at what racists say.. Foreigners taking our jobs etc.. That's a base fear that goes all the way back to sitting in a cave worrying your crops are gonna be pinched
It's a mistake to assume that everyone thinks like you do.
oh god. here we go.....
?
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Fear of not getting one's perceived fair share of scarce resources may be an inbuilt human trait, but it's got bugger all to do with the colour of a person's skin. How many different races do you think prehistoric man tended to see?
larf. its fear of difference. Are you saying people who want the poles to go back to Europe aren't racist because they have white skin?
No. It's xenophobia.
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Fear of not getting one's perceived fair share of scarce resources may be an inbuilt human trait, but it's got bugger all to do with the colour of a person's skin. How many different races do you think prehistoric man tended to see?
larf. its fear of difference. Are you saying people who want the poles to go back to Europe aren't racist because they have white skin?
I don't think anyone would suggest that.
I'd suggest that a toddler called Smith would be unlikely to have an innate fear of one called Kowalski.
If an adult, adolescent or, as in the case that started this thread, slightly older child was constantly being told that Polish people were untrustworthy, violent, dangerous, or any other unwanted trait you care to name, then they might dislike the adult Kowalksi.
Prejudice is learned, not genetic.
I disagree. Yes, a child taught that polish people have those characteristics by his parents could possibly grow up disliking them but not necessarily. Plenty of people around who's parents are a bit that way, but their offspring aren't, but would a 5 year old with no experience of family anti-polish bias find a polish schoolmate who spoke bad english, ate different food etc strange or different? I think they would, and that polish child would possibly experience bullying that had nothing to do with the bully's parents or upbringing.
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I'd also say that it is possible that fans of other clubs might be looking at this thread given the publicity surrounding this abuse. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that Wilfried Zaha and/or some of our own Black players might do likewise.
I'd like to think this thread would show solidarity with Zaha and opposition to the racism he has had to wake up to. Engaging in this exercise in whataboutery isn't a good look for us as Villa fans.
I think it might be better if sickbeggar's views on the origins of racism were discussed (and deconstructed) somewhere like the Black Lives Matter thread rather than here.
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Well you're probably right. It's nothing to do with whether racism is right or exists, but how to deal with it effectively. I would hope it would be obvious to anyone with a brain reading this that racism is totally wrong imo.
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Fear of not getting one's perceived fair share of scarce resources may be an inbuilt human trait, but it's got bugger all to do with the colour of a person's skin. How many different races do you think prehistoric man tended to see?
larf. its fear of difference. Are you saying people who want the poles to go back to Europe aren't racist because they have white skin?
I'd suggest that a toddler called Smith would be unlikely to have an innate fear of one called Kowalski.
We've got twin boys (2 years old at the time). About a month after they went to the childminders for the first time - they were the only children under her care - a couple of polish kids started. The oldest spoke a bit of English, the youngest could only speak polish. Literally before the mum had left the house they were playing together, and within a couple of hours they were both chatting away to the younger child in Polish.
They'd never met any Polish person before.
I'm not convinced they had an innate fear of poles taking the potatoes out of our back garden....
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I'd also say that it is possible that fans of other clubs might be looking at this thread given the publicity surrounding this abuse. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that Wilfried Zaha and/or some of our own Black players might do likewise.
I'd like to think this thread would show solidarity with Zaha and opposition to the racism he has had to wake up to. Engaging in this exercise in whataboutery isn't a good look for us as Villa fans.
I think it might be better if sickbeggar's views on the origins of racism were discussed (and deconstructed) somewhere like the Black Lives Matter thread rather than here.
I totally agree. Solidarity with Wilfried Zaha. I am embarrassed that this came from a Viila source.
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Fear of not getting one's perceived fair share of scarce resources may be an inbuilt human trait, but it's got bugger all to do with the colour of a person's skin. How many different races do you think prehistoric man tended to see?
larf. its fear of difference. Are you saying people who want the poles to go back to Europe aren't racist because they have white skin?
I don't think anyone would suggest that.
I'd suggest that a toddler called Smith would be unlikely to have an innate fear of one called Kowalski.
If an adult, adolescent or, as in the case that started this thread, slightly older child was constantly being told that Polish people were untrustworthy, violent, dangerous, or any other unwanted trait you care to name, then they might dislike the adult Kowalksi.
Prejudice is learned, not genetic.
I disagree. Yes, a child taught that polish people have those characteristics by his parents could possibly grow up disliking them but not necessarily. Plenty of people around who's parents are a bit that way, but their offspring aren't, but would a 5 year old with no experience of family anti-polish bias find a polish schoolmate who spoke bad english, ate different food etc strange or different? I think they would, and that polish child would possibly experience bullying that had nothing to do with the bully's parents or upbringing.
I had to go to sleep in the middle of all this last night. But looking at it with a freshish pair of eyes, it seems to me your mixing up, purposely, or otherwise, theories around survival of the fittest, particularly with references to mankind 50 million years ago and the fact in your eyes we’re all inherently racist. I don’t know what your politics are and it’s none of my business but it’s the kind Of right wing rhetoric that’s been bandied round by the tories subtlety or less so these days for generations, e.g. your poor because your lazy and work shy, not because your life chances are limited from the start in this country because of the post code you grow up under or the colour of your skin. Your wealthy because you deserve to be, not because in this country largely your white, male and middle class or upwards.
What the tories never want to understand is the community is just as much a human trait, you can see it in football when such disparate groups of people come together under the banner of their club.
Even within all of the above your arguments make no sense, your analogy of kids seeing other kids, say poles and seeing their different and not liking that difference, may happen but equally kids may be inquisitive and want to find out about the difference. Both my primary and secondary schools had a mix of West Indian and white Irish descent kids and it’s interesting that there was no or little racist behaviour that I recall until the early years of secondary school.
It’s interesting that you are arguing that we are all hot wired to be racist and it’s not therefore about nurture and how we’re brought up or are personal experiences. I would argue the fact that so many people disagree with points to the very fact that at least some people have had different life experiences to you which have shaped their different views on issues of race, in itself I think that undermines your main point, which I still think excuses racism.
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To show our solidarity with Zaha and players of all ethnicities when we are all back together he should have his own song. The old Andy Gray song perhaps. Oh Wilfried Oh Wilfried, You're the greatest the Holte End say. I know it should be 'says' but it has to rhyme with We are with you all the way.
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Some of the replies to the WMP tweet about this kid are so, so fucking depressing.
"OMG! IT'S ONLY WORDS! HOW CAN WORDS HURT ANYONE! YOU ARE IGNORING ASIAN GROOMING GANGS!"
I fucking hate what this country has become.
Hi Paulie, this is regrettably all too common.
I work for an MP who is empathetic to the BLM movement and we held a virtual meeting to discuss local action and the racist abuse was startling. Dozens of rebuttals that there is any issue and why are we wasting our time discussing BLM.
Diane Abbott has had and continues to get racist hate abuse. Dawn Butler has had to move out of her constituency office because of the the abuse she gets and attacks on her staff.
Education is key but the starting point for too many people in the UK is denial that there is a problem and why are we even talking about it.
People choose to believe what they want to believe and in this instance there is a word for that.
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The big problem with what sickbeggar is suggesting is that there's no evidence for it. You don't see babies reacting negatively to other babies for example.
What is true is that we are "wired" to live in packs. For the majority of people that means being "beta" and following the example of the alpha. Where this clashes with the modern world is that we don't belong to a single pack. We all move between them and most of us adapt to fit in with the pack we're with. These 2 combined are where most hatred comes from.
Genetic mistrust/hatred doesn't exist but genetic follower instinct does.
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They should send one-eyed Baz round to have a word.
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We've got twin boys (2 years old at the time). About a month after they went to the childminders for the first time - they were the only children under her care - a couple of polish kids started. The oldest spoke a bit of English, the youngest could only speak polish. Literally before the mum had left the house they were playing together, and within a couple of hours they were both chatting away to the younger child in Polish.
They'd never met any Polish person before.
I'm not convinced they had an innate fear of poles taking the potatoes out of our back garden....
In a similar vein, we took our lad (who was 3 at the time) on holiday to one of the Canary Islands a few years back. When we got there it transpires that the hotel we'd picked was big in Scandinavia but not so much Britain, so when he went to the holiday club he was the only English kids there amongst 19 Scandinavians, mostly Swedish. None of the other kids spoke English.
After two hours he came out full of smiles and for the rest of the holiday he kept waving and saying hello to all his new friends every time he passed them.
I know that sickbeggar started this by saying it was his opinion, but you'd have thought that in the absence of any scientific evidence to back up what he's saying, and universal disagreement with his view, he might question whether his opinion has any actual validity in reality.
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I felt sick when I heard this story and the fact that it came from a 12 year old makes it even more depressing. Not only is it a disgusting thing for Zaha to have to deal with crap like that it drags the good name of Aston Villa football club through the mud. A lot of people saying on social media that they hope we get relegated now as if we're all racists and we deserve it. Well we are NOT a racist club and we need to have our voice heard.We only have one more home game left to do this and I wouldn't know how to organise such a thing but if someone could arrange it I would love to see a massive banner on the Holte for our last game with Zahas picture on it with the words "The Holte End Supports you Louis" I might be a dreamer but that would really make me proud.
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Are we really collectively responsible for every bell end who happens to follow the same team as us?
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I felt sick when I heard this story and the fact that it came from a 12 year old makes it even more depressing. Not only is it a disgusting thing for Zaha to have to deal with crap like that it drags the good name of Aston Villa football club through the mud. A lot of people saying on social media that they hope we get relegated now as if we're all racists and we deserve it. Well we are NOT a racist club and we need to have our voice heard.We only have one more home game left to do this and I wouldn't know how to organise such a thing but if someone could arrange it I would love to see a massive banner on the Holte for our last game with Zahas picture on it with the words "The Holte End Supports you Louis" I might be a dreamer but that would really make me proud.
Who's Louis? 😉
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I was wondering that!
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I'm Louis and so's my wife!
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I felt sick when I heard this story and the fact that it came from a 12 year old makes it even more depressing. Not only is it a disgusting thing for Zaha to have to deal with crap like that it drags the good name of Aston Villa football club through the mud. A lot of people saying on social media that they hope we get relegated now as if we're all racists and we deserve it. Well we are NOT a racist club and we need to have our voice heard.We only have one more home game left to do this and I wouldn't know how to organise such a thing but if someone could arrange it I would love to see a massive banner on the Holte for our last game with Zahas picture on it with the words "The Holte End Supports you Louis" I might be a dreamer but that would really make me proud.
Who's Louis? 😉
Ok Wilfred.!!
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Fear of not getting one's perceived fair share of scarce resources may be an inbuilt human trait, but it's got bugger all to do with the colour of a person's skin. How many different races do you think prehistoric man tended to see?
larf. its fear of difference. Are you saying people who want the poles to go back to Europe aren't racist because they have white skin?
I don't think anyone would suggest that.
I'd suggest that a toddler called Smith would be unlikely to have an innate fear of one called Kowalski.
If an adult, adolescent or, as in the case that started this thread, slightly older child was constantly being told that Polish people were untrustworthy, violent, dangerous, or any other unwanted trait you care to name, then they might dislike the adult Kowalksi.
Prejudice is learned, not genetic.
I disagree. Yes, a child taught that polish people have those characteristics by his parents could possibly grow up disliking them but not necessarily. Plenty of people around who's parents are a bit that way, but their offspring aren't, but would a 5 year old with no experience of family anti-polish bias find a polish schoolmate who spoke bad english, ate different food etc strange or different? I think they would, and that polish child would possibly experience bullying that had nothing to do with the bully's parents or upbringing.
I had to go to sleep in the middle of all this last night. But looking at it with a freshish pair of eyes, it seems to me your mixing up, purposely, or otherwise, theories around survival of the fittest, particularly with references to mankind 50 million years ago and the fact in your eyes we’re all inherently racist. I don’t know what your politics are and it’s none of my business but it’s the kind Of right wing rhetoric that’s been bandied round by the tories subtlety or less so these days for generations, e.g. your poor because your lazy and work shy, not because your life chances are limited from the start in this country because of the post code you grow up under or the colour of your skin. Your wealthy because you deserve to be, not because in this country largely your white, male and middle class or upwards.
What the tories never want to understand is the community is just as much a human trait, you can see it in football when such disparate groups of people come together under the banner of their club.
Even within all of the above your arguments make no sense, your analogy of kids seeing other kids, say poles and seeing their different and not liking that difference, may happen but equally kids may be inquisitive and want to find out about the difference. Both my primary and secondary schools had a mix of West Indian and white Irish descent kids and it’s interesting that there was no or little racist behaviour that I recall until the early years of secondary school.
It’s interesting that you are arguing that we are all hot wired to be racist and it’s not therefore about nurture and how we’re brought up or are personal experiences. I would argue the fact that so many people disagree with points to the very fact that at least some people have had different life experiences to you which have shaped their different views on issues of race, in itself I think that undermines your main point, which I still think excuses racism.
Well i'm not getting into politics really. Suffice to say i consider myself to the left of the labour party, as opposed to what passes for it nowadays and i don't see any difference between the Daily mail/express reading right and the guardian reading left who are both using the present situation for their own advantage. Two sides of the same distasteful coin imo and i wont engage with either side. i've never voted tory and i will never vote labour again.
As for the original point, people are perfectly entitled to believe its 100% nurture and not nature. Some people also believe all "bad" people are not born bad as well. Again i disagree. Your point of view has been the common wisdom now since before i was at school. And yet in 2020 we are probably living in a more divided and fractured society over this issue that i can remember in my lifetime despite society and schools educating children on this matter. So if you are right and it is purely nurture, then someone needs to radically alter the methods of combating it, because it's clearly not working if a 12 year old can get to that age spouting that rubbish. . Anyway I think i'll leave it there as this has meandered far far from the original subject matter
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Are we really collectively responsible for every bell end who happens to follow the same team as us?
Nope - all clubs have bellend supporters. All clubs. Some, like the Rags, have a much higher proportion than others especially when talking about Villa (most of their life).
This young fella needs to be educated - at least he is at an age where his opinions and experiences could change more readily for the better.
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Obviously you are entitled to your belief.
I’ve tried to acknowledge epigentics is starting to acknowledge there are some nature factors in inherited trauma responses, so not argued strictly purely nurture.
There doesn’t to me seem to be a coherent logic to your argument however, beyond this still exists, therefore it must be what I think it is.
As for radically combatting racism, I suppose some of us hope we have seen a bit more empowerment to challenge the status quo (and stuff within ourselves, certainty within myself) of late with the BLM resurgence.
There are certainly shared concerns from me: re increased divided and fractured society.
If you are going to compare the Daily Mail & Guardian readers, I think you have to compare what they are reading/conditioned by - of course self selecting by what we expose ourself to.
I’ll end with this question and answer.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZHHr9dR/6-DF4-A7-C0-066-F-468-E-BF79-E7-F732-D0-C4-A7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZHHr9dR)
(https://i.ibb.co/GWqZGLL/D783-AC83-454-C-4-FA6-8585-C0-FAA7-D2978-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GWqZGLL)
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There’s no place in society for this,especially not at our club. I think the parents, the family, if there is one need speaking to. Hopefully the kid can learn from his mistakes.
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I agree that the post was abhorrent and I suspect there’s more in the background of the individual than we currently know so we need to temper our knee jerk responses until the full facts come out.
On a note of balance and perspective, I often see pretty outrageous posts on Twitter but none of them make backpage headlines or the attention this has got.
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I agree that the post was abhorrent and I suspect there’s more in the background of the individual than we currently know so we need to temper our knee jerk responses until the full facts come out.
On a note of balance and perspective, I often see pretty outrageous posts on Twitter but none of them make backpage headlines or the attention this has got.
It deserves all the attention it's got. It was vile, abusive and there was no need for it.
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Obviously you are entitled to your belief.
I’ve tried to acknowledge epigentics is starting to acknowledge there are some nature factors in inherited trauma responses, so not argued strictly purely nurture.
There doesn’t to me seem to be a coherent logic to your argument however, beyond this still exists, therefore it must be what I think it is.
As for radically combatting racism, I suppose some of us hope we have seen a bit more empowerment to challenge the status quo (and stuff within ourselves, certainty within myself) of late with the BLM resurgence.
There are certainly shared concerns from me: re increased divided and fractured society.
If you are going to compare the Daily Mail & Guardian readers, I think you have to compare what they are reading/conditioned by - of course self selecting by what we expose ourself to.
I’ll end with this question and answer.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZHHr9dR/6-DF4-A7-C0-066-F-468-E-BF79-E7-F732-D0-C4-A7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZHHr9dR)
(https://i.ibb.co/GWqZGLL/D783-AC83-454-C-4-FA6-8585-C0-FAA7-D2978-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GWqZGLL)
You won't get any argument from me on that but for every one of them you'll have a labour supporting, Remain voting, BLM advocating guardian reader who blamed the jews for losing the election and celebrated when the jewish chronicle got into trouble in April. Views I heard both on the guardian and twitter. On another forum I had an argument with a university lecturer (yes, god help us, they teach our kids) where he was convinced the whole jewish labour racism thing was a Zionist far right plot to destroy the labour party. As I said, two sides of the same coin. I must admit to a guilty secret of having both a Daily Mail and Guardian comments account at one stage just so I could troll their wafer-thin ideological beliefs and their narrow tick-boxes of opinions which classify you as "one of us" or "one of them". In the end I knocked it on the head because after a while these echo-boxes of narrow opinion start to rub off on you and damage the soul.
Anyway, enough. That's my last word on any of this. (Promise).
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Totally disgusting things to say and do.
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You won't get any argument from me on that but for every one of them you'll have a labour supporting, Remain voting, BLM advocating guardian reader who blamed the jews for losing the election
I bet you any amount of money that you wouldn't.
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This sounds like "there are bad dudes on both sides".
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You won't get any argument from me on that but for every one of them you'll have a labour supporting, Remain voting, BLM advocating guardian reader who blamed the jews for losing the election
I bet you any amount of money that you wouldn't.
I'm sure that he will be back in a short while showing us full evidence to the effect. Or maybe not.
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Marogyles has volunteered herself, so there's one crank that meets Sickbeggar's description at least. Not sure about the rest of his scale though.
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I will cover that bet and double it. I have been Labour party member for sixty years and I have never met a racist member of the Party.
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Tories and Brexit members spouting racism and xenobhobia? I have met four today and it is only 3 o'clock.
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In fairness to my Tory friends, I have been forward buying of taters. Fertile ground for social cannibals.
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You won't get any argument from me on that but for every one of them you'll have a labour supporting, Remain voting, BLM advocating guardian reader who blamed the jews for losing the election
I bet you any amount of money that you wouldn't.
I'm sure that he will be back in a short while showing us full evidence to the effect. Or maybe not.
We're way off topic here but probably the latter - https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-antisemitism-political-parties (https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-antisemitism-political-parties) - that largely dispels the first 2 of those claims. It's shame no one has stats to show AS amongst BLM or guardian raeders compared to general population because I'm fairly sure they'd show a similar spread. On top of that even people he's targeting (and I fit pretty closely in his demographic) don't 'blame the jews for losing the election'.
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Apart from the obvious condemnation, the pisser in all this is that it's us again. I don't know why, but we seem to get more than our fair share of these accusations.
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I suspect that being critical of an establishment figure, as Aston Villa are, gives an added salaciousness to any story like having a vicar in a sex scandal. It is the cross we bear for being what we are. One of the founders of the beautiful game.
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I suspect that being critical of an establishment figure, as Aston Villa are, gives an added salaciousness to any story like having a vicar in a sex scandal. It is the cross we bear for being what we are. One of the founders of the beautiful game.
Two words too many in that last sentence.