Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Meanwood Villa on March 02, 2020, 08:47:33 AM
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Coming away from the game proud of the team yesterday but ultimately disappointed did get me wondering when we'll realistically see us lift another trophy. Getting to the final is rare enough but if every time you get there you're playing Man City or Arsenal or Man Utd or Chelsea, like we have in our finals of the last 24 years, how often are we likely to come out on top? Bit of a grim thought really and makes me feel a bit like fans of Scottish non-old firm (or non Celtic in recent years) teams must.
Obviously getting established in the top flight is important because that's what will get us the better players and the ability to compete at a higher level more consistently but I would like to see us really having a go at both cups. Even this season we didn't play our first team in the LC until the semi finals, it just so happened our reserves were better than what our opponents put out. Ultimately days like yesterday are what football is about, trying to win a cup. Our younger fans haven't seen this happen and given the odds that are stacked against us in this era we should take every opportunity to right that wrong. UTV
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At some point during the 2015 Final the penny finally dropped with me that I was never going to see us win the FA Cup in my lifetime. Realistically the only one we can win is the League Cup and even that is becoming an increasingly long shot.
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It’s depressing isn’t it. Wembley is horrible when you don’t win, I feel very flat today
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This Guardian piece which has been linked on the main match thread takes a similar line to Meanwood, though they take a more extreme view than Meanwood and their comparison with the film "Parasite" is inappropriate. The basic theme is contained in the title: that Villa will never belong at the top table.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/mar/01/aston-villa-take-seat-at-top-table-but-leave-with-worry-theyll-never-belong (https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/mar/01/aston-villa-take-seat-at-top-table-but-leave-with-worry-theyll-never-belong)
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That piece glosses over the fact that not much more than ten years ago Manchester City were the biggest jokes in football and all their supporters had to cling onto was the tiresome Real Club of Our City claim and the fact that they could laugh at themselves every bit as much as the rest of us did. Football continually changes and who knows what the next decade will bring?
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I grew up in the late 80s and 90s with villa firmly established at the top table. That said, we probably weren't 'fashionable' but we won and competed for trophies (while having the odd really bad season thrown in for good measure).
All of the cup finals, in 2000, 2010 and 2015 were bid let downs. Yesterday was more of a 'oooh, we weren't that far away from an upset' kind of game which feels a bit better. However, it did underline how difficult it will ever be for us to win another trophy.
If we can somehow beat the drop, I wouldn't be surprised to see us become a mid-table team that competes for cups-as it is as short-cut to Europe. However, if we go down you can't help but feel it will be a long time before we build something that can compete.
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That piece glosses over the fact that not much more than ten years ago Manchester City were the biggest jokes in football and all their supporters had to cling onto was the turesome Real Club of Our City claim and the fact that they could laugh at themselves every bit as much as the rest of us did. Football continually changes and who knows what the next decade will bring?
Fair points there. However, in the 90s we used to laugh at Newcastle going so long without a trophy. it's scary to think how long ago 1996 now is.
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That piece glosses over the fact that not much more than ten years ago Manchester City were the biggest jokes in football and all their supporters had to cling onto was the turesome Real Club of Our City claim and the fact that they could laugh at themselves every bit as much as the rest of us did. Football continually changes and who knows what the next decade will bring?
Fair points there. However, in the 90s we used to laugh at Newcastle going so long without a trophy. it's scary to think how long ago 1996 now is.
The big surprise is that Everton have gone longer than us.
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Yes there is some relevance to his assertion about the Villa and the state of Football.
He also fails to take into account Chelsea or Manure, both clubs looking more like “ medium size” clubs than giants.
I think our owners are serious whilst I do not think they will follow a high risk money takes all shit or bust strategy.
Step one is survival, achieve this and who knows.
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That piece glosses over the fact that not much more than ten years ago Manchester City were the biggest jokes in football and all their supporters had to cling onto was the turesome Real Club of Our City claim and the fact that they could laugh at themselves every bit as much as the rest of us did. Football continually changes and who knows what the next decade will bring?
Fair points there. However, in the 90s we used to laugh at Newcastle going so long without a trophy. it's scary to think how long ago 1996 now is.
The big surprise is that Everton have gone longer than us.
For all their supposed success Tottenham have won fuck all for about 20 years as well.
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Domestic cup wins by decade:
2010-2019
Man City 6
Chelsea 4
Arsenal 3
Man U 3
Blues, Liverpool, Swansea, Wigan 1 each.
8 different teams in total
2000-2009
Chelsea 5
Liverpool 4
Arsenal 3
Man U 3
Blackburn, Leicester, Boro, Pompey, Spurs 1 each
9 different teams in total
1990-1999
Man U 5
Arsenal 3
Us, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs 2 each
Everton, Leicester, Forest, Sheff Wed 1 each
10 different teams in total
1980-1989
Liverpool 6
Man U, Spurs 2 each
Arsenal, Coventry, Everton, Luton, Norwich, Forest, Oxford, West Ham, Wimbledon, Wolves 1 each.
13 different teams in total
1970-1979
Arsenal, us, Man City, Forest, Spurs 2 each
Chelsea, Ipswich, Leeds, Liverpool, Man U, Southampton, Stoke, Sunderland, West Ham, Wolves 1 each
15 different teams in total
1960-1969 (only 19 trophies as no League Cup in 1960)
Tottenham 3
Albion 2
Us, Blues, Chelsea, Everton, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, Man City, Man U, Norwich, QPR, Swindon, West Ham, Wolves 1 each
16 different teams in total
It's no surprise that the number of clubs winning trophies is getting smaller and "things ain't what they used to be" has been done to death on here but I think the above really brings home how so many more clubs had their day in the sun in the past as opposed to now.
I really enjoyed yesterday despite the defeat, it felt like what we should be doing every year. I think this is something worth remembering with every cup exit that is shrugged off with "the league is more important". We've only got two shots at a cup each year, let's make sure we put everything into trying to win them no matter how hard it seems.
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That piece glosses over the fact that not much more than ten years ago Manchester City were the biggest jokes in football and all their supporters had to cling onto was the turesome Real Club of Our City claim and the fact that they could laugh at themselves every bit as much as the rest of us did. Football continually changes and who knows what the next decade will bring?
Fair points there. However, in the 90s we used to laugh at Newcastle going so long without a trophy. it's scary to think how long ago 1996 now is.
The big surprise is that Everton have gone longer than us.
For all their supposed success Tottenham have won fuck all for about 20 years as well.
PL era, spuds have won exactly as much as we have, a pair of League cups.
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I've
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I've felt we've been a long way off winning a trophy for a while, probably the 2010 League Cup final.
All that said, I'm more optimistic. I think we're struggling at the moment because we're a newly promoted side, with a squad that was brought together last summer, on what's a tight budget (~£10m per player) in Premier League terms. At the top, though, things seem to be shifting. Look at Arsenal, Manchester United, and Chelsea - all having to compete for places with clubs like Leicester, Wolves, and Sheffield United. All 3 have been in the Championship fairly recently.
It doesn't pay to get too despondent about this, in my mind. I know it's been a rough season, and we went into a cup final with no chance. But look where we were 12 months ago and compare to now ... we're doing alright.
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This Guardian piece which has been linked on the main match thread takes a similar line to Meanwood, though they take a more extreme view than Meanwood and their comparison with the film "Parasite" is inappropriate. The basic theme is contained in the title: that Villa will never belong at the top table.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/mar/01/aston-villa-take-seat-at-top-table-but-leave-with-worry-theyll-never-belong (https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/mar/01/aston-villa-take-seat-at-top-table-but-leave-with-worry-theyll-never-belong)
Having read that again, he doesn't really define what the 'top table' is and who is actually seated at it. If those at the top table are Machester City and Liverpool, then practically every other side is currently not at that table and are a considerable way off establishing themselves there on a regular basis.
If, however, he is including the likes of Leicester and Wolves as being at the 'top table' then I don't think it is beyond the realms of fantasy that we could reach that kind of level in the next decade with a combination of good investments and sound decision making throughout the club.
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This Guardian piece which has been linked on the main match thread takes a similar line to Meanwood, though they take a more extreme view than Meanwood and their comparison with the film "Parasite" is inappropriate. The basic theme is contained in the title: that Villa will never belong at the top table.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/mar/01/aston-villa-take-seat-at-top-table-but-leave-with-worry-theyll-never-belong (https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2020/mar/01/aston-villa-take-seat-at-top-table-but-leave-with-worry-theyll-never-belong)
Funny, I read that yesterday and thought the guy displayed a distinct lack of football knowledge.
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Maybe what’s changed is the concerted effort those the top table have made to keep it for themselves.
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Yep that decade or so period when only Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Man U qualified for the Champions League did immeasurable damage. The only teams to challenge that hegemony are Spurs, and it’s taken them 20 years of Levy’s penny pinching/wise investment (you decide) to get there but with no trophies, and Citeh by dint of cheating. To dine at that top table is possible, I’d like to think we’re well placed to have a crack but it won’t be solved within a couple of years, FFP sees to that.
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If we stay up and keep that team together I think they can grow, with 3 or 4 quality additions, into a team that can win a trophy.
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These things are cyclical. Looking at the last 16 in the Europa League I'd venture to suggest that Wolves have as good a chance as any of winning it.
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In the same way the likes of Lance Armstrong got stripped of all his titles for cheating will Man City lose all theirs?
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Domestic cup wins by decade:
2010-2019
Man City 6
Chelsea 4
Arsenal 3
Man U 3
Blues, Liverpool, Swansea, Wigan 1 each.
8 different teams in total
2000-2009
Chelsea 5
Liverpool 4
Arsenal 3
Man U 3
Blackburn, Leicester, Boro, Pompey, Spurs 1 each
9 different teams in total
1990-1999
Man U 5
Arsenal 3
Us, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs 2 each
Everton, Leicester, Forest, Sheff Wed 1 each
10 different teams in total
1980-1989
Liverpool 6
Man U, Spurs 2 each
Arsenal, Coventry, Everton, Luton, Norwich, Forest, Oxford, West Ham, Wimbledon, Wolves 1 each.
13 different teams in total
1970-1979
Arsenal, us, Man City, Forest, Spurs 2 each
Chelsea, Ipswich, Leeds, Liverpool, Man U, Southampton, Stoke, Sunderland, West Ham, Wolves 1 each
15 different teams in total
1960-1969 (only 19 trophies as no League Cup in 1960)
Tottenham 3
Albion 2
Us, Blues, Chelsea, Everton, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, Man City, Man U, Norwich, QPR, Swindon, West Ham, Wolves 1 each
16 different teams in total
It's no surprise that the number of clubs winning trophies is getting smaller and "things ain't what they used to be" has been done to death on here but I think the above really brings home how so many more clubs had their day in the sun in the past as opposed to now.
I really enjoyed yesterday despite the defeat, it felt like what we should be doing every year. I think this is something worth remembering with every cup exit that is shrugged off with "the league is more important". We've only got two shots at a cup each year, let's make sure we put everything into trying to win them no matter how hard it seems.
I'm sure I remember reading something about the Villa winning something or other in the 80s. Wink.
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I'm sure I remember reading something about the Villa winning something or other in the 80s. Wink.
Not the FAC or LC though.
Domestic cup wins by decade:
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I'm sure I remember reading something about the Villa winning something or other in the 80s. Wink.
Not the FAC or LC though.
Domestic cup wins by decade:
That'll teach me to be a smartarse.
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We messed up badly in 2013. That would've been our best chance since 90s given Swansea were a good side but we took 4 points off them in the league that season (somehow got a 2-2 down there on NYD 2013 when we were on that horrible run of defeats) and our front 3 started clicking from end of January.
We have been unlucky with the opposition but again it would be nice to have one performance where we play out of our skins just like some of the small teams who've won trophies in last decade have done...
I think we'll win something within next 10 years. Given how bad we've been since the start of 2010 we've still had three chances to win a final so we'll get more if we keep plugging away and actually get in proven players for the starting 11 eventually.
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We messed up badly in 2013. That would've been our best chance since 90s given Swansea were a good side but we took 4 points off them in the league that season (somehow got a 2-2 down there on NYD 2013 when we were on that horrible run of defeats) and our front 3 started clicking from end of January.
Yep, we were just coming into a bit of form at the time of the LC final in 2013 and I think we would have beaten Swansea. The semi-final against Bradford was a real low in a decade of disappointment.
Winning the first Premier League season, the last FA Cup final at the old Wembley and the League Cup in 2013 are probably the things I would change most during my time watching the Villa.
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I think we'll win something within next 10 years. Given how bad we've been since the start of 2010 we've still had three chances to win a final so we'll get more if we keep plugging away and actually get in proven players for the starting 11 eventually.
I agree with this, although I’ll admit I do tend to fall on the optimistic side of the scales.
Like you say, Soccer, it’s hardly been a vintage ten years but three domestic finals is as many as Liverpool in that same time period (in fact only four teams have more). Throw in a couple of semi-finals too and we have certainly had enough opportunities to make me believe that it’s eminently possibly that we won’t go that long with winning something.