Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dalians umbrella on February 24, 2020, 03:07:18 PM
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A few weeks ago, we switched from 4-3-3 to "5 at the back". As this came after reports of a player's meeting in which the topic of us being more defensive/solid was discussed, I'm assuming this was the aim.
I have always thought of "5 at the back" as being able to achieve this aim, as you normally have 5 defenders and 3 in midfield, but we are playing it like Wolves, with only 2 central midfielders, and wingers , as well as wing-backs.
Wolves may well be able to get away with this because they have better attacking players, but to me, it seems to be making us vulnerable to opposition attacks. We have gone backwards in solidity because we have gone from 3 central midfielders to 2. It's all very well having loads of defenders, but it's not much good if the midfield aren't stopping attacks in the first place.
Furthermore, playing 2 wingers is meaning that Jack is wasted out wide.
I think we should either go to 3 midfielders and 2 strikers ( a la Sir Brian of Little), or given our current lack of proven strikers and current predicament, would go for a tight midfield diamond (but keeping 5 at the back) like this:
GK
CB CB CB
Nakamba
WB Luiz Hourihane WB
Grealish
Samatta
This would allow Jack a central / free / more attacking role.
Well, that's what I think anyway.
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Well, i'd tend to agree with you considering i basically said the same thing on the Smith thread this morning :-)
Except as i say, Hourahane in behind Grealish and Samatta, or possibly Grealish in behind Samatta and either Davis, El Ghazi, Trez or the spanish geezer.
The other way might be to play the three pronged but play them closer together like Liverpool do, rather than 2 of them virtually on the touchlines. That wouldn't suit our best player as well though.
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Well, i'd tend to agree with you considering i basically said the same thing on the Smith thread this morning :-)
Sorry, I'm pretty bad at reading all the other threads and then occasionally just make a random post, assuming it's a novel bit of genius.
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I posted this elsewhere...
Samatta
Jack
Conor Luiz SJM/AEG/Trez
Nakamba
Targett Mings Engels Elmo/Fred
Narrow without the ball (Jack drops in beside Luiz) and more expansive with it. SJM when fit, AEG/Trez until then.
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Your point about playing 3 in the middle if you are going 3 at the back is valid.
Bizarre then the area of the field we were all ready struggling he weakened.
Also strange that Smith is on record saying he does not like 3 at the back and will not play that way.
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it's more about players than formations
the problem we have when playing the 3 central defenders is that we have to use Hause and Konsa who are not good enough players at this level
then watching them try and play out from the back is laughable
they haven't got the technique or ball control to do that
Engels and Mings are the best central defensive footballers we have and they are both prone to making gaffs and mistakes as we have seen, but are both better overall footballers than the other two
if we go down Konsa and Hause might be plenty good enough for the championship but in this league they can't do it they are not good enough footballers especially Hause who really is poor at passing, distribution, controlling the ball under pressure, knowing what to do in general when pinned back
I would go for a Guilbert Engels Mings Target back 4
It's more attacking and uses the better footballers we have in the squad
it won't be perfect they will still make mistakes but they will also do things better more often than the alternatives imo
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Completely agree John E, but he has thrown Engels under the bus if rumors are to be believed.
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Completely agree John E, but he has thrown Engels under the bus if rumors are to be believed.
I don’t know about that but if true we will be poorer for it
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I posted this elsewhere...
Samatta
Jack
Conor Luiz SJM/AEG/Trez
Nakamba
Targett Mings Engels Elmo/Fred
Narrow without the ball (Jack drops in beside Luiz) and more expansive with it. SJM when fit, AEG/Trez until then.
Samatta is a bit small to be in goal. IMO. Don't like Jack as sweeper either but he's brilliant so he'll probably just turn into Beckenbauer.
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I posted this elsewhere...
Samatta
Jack
Conor Luiz SJM/AEG/Trez
Nakamba
Targett Mings Engels Elmo/Fred
Narrow without the ball (Jack drops in beside Luiz) and more expansive with it. SJM when fit, AEG/Trez until then.
Samatta is a bit small to be in goal. IMO. Don't like Jack as sweeper either but he's brilliant so he'll probably just turn into Beckenbauer.
Ha ha! That's what I thought!
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We have had the same issues with both formations really - in that we are very open and concede too many shots. For me, it’s a by product of the way that Smith wants us to play compounded by the fact that we have had to build pretty much a completely new team and the players haven’t been quite good enough.
Too often we look like a collection of reasonably talented individuals lacking coherence. We don’t currently have players that link the play well enough offensively - we miss Jack and SJM playing centrally together so much in this regard - and then we are so disjointed and wide defensively that the gaps between players is huge, meaning that we are too easy to play through and the defence is over exposed.
I like Smith but he hasn’t got the balance right tactically enough, hence us conceded so many shots so often and losing too many games.
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I said it before, but I'd go:
Nyland
Gilbert Engels Mings Taylor
Elmo Luiz Jack Nakamba Targett
Samatta
Jack back in the middle. We wouldn't lose anything with Elmo and Targett out wide, because at least they can both cross and Trez and El Ghazi are shite. It's going Full Bruce of course, but we need some clean sheets.
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I said it before, but I'd go:
Nyland
Gilbert Engels Mings Taylor
Elmo Luiz Jack Nakamba Targett
Samatta
Jack back in the middle. We wouldn't lose anything with Elmo and Targett out wide, because at least they can both cross and Trez and El Ghazi are shite. It's going Full Bruce of course, but we need some clean sheets.
ha ha
your calling for the managers head and you’ve got Taylor and Elmo in your starting line up
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I said it before, but I'd go:
Nyland
Gilbert Engels Mings Taylor
Elmo Luiz Jack Nakamba Targett
Samatta
Jack back in the middle. We wouldn't lose anything with Elmo and Targett out wide, because at least they can both cross and Trez and El Ghazi are shite. It's going Full Bruce of course, but we need some clean sheets.
ha ha
your calling for the managers head and you’ve got Taylor and Elmo in your starting line up
Did you see El Ghazi and Trezeguet at the weekend John?
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I said it before, but I'd go:
Nyland
Gilbert Engels Mings Taylor
Elmo Luiz Jack Nakamba Targett
Samatta
Jack back in the middle. We wouldn't lose anything with Elmo and Targett out wide, because at least they can both cross and Trez and El Ghazi are shite. It's going Full Bruce of course, but we need some clean sheets.
ha ha
your calling for the managers head and you’ve got Taylor and Elmo in your starting line up
Did you see El Ghazi and Trezeguet at the weekend John?
They were crap but I also saw Elmo and Taylor against City is was tragic
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If we are going to go with three at the back, then I would like to see us go 3-5-2, with a Jack in a central role behind the front two.
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Samatta is a bit small to be in goal. IMO. Don't like Jack as sweeper either but he's brilliant so he'll probably just turn into Beckenbauer.
lol TV, couldn't be any worse than the team that waved the white flag at St. Mary's :)
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He has got to plug the central midfield.
Whatever Formation that takes.
I am not convinced he knows how to.
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He has got to plug the central midfield.
Whatever Formation that takes.
I am not convinced he knows how to.
Or wants to judging by the way he's set up so far this season.
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He has got to plug the central midfield.
Whatever Formation that takes.
I am not convinced he knows how to.
Or wants to judging by the way he's set up so far this season.
Which in some ways is even more worrying.
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With 3 at the back we are doing what I feared, 3 staying back marking a lone forward, usually badly, meaning that the opposition outnumber us in the middle and simply play through us. Obviously compounded by a lack of experience and some really daft individual mistakes.
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Don't agree that Hause and Konsa are not good enough for this level. They're both raw and Hause's distribution needs some serious work but they're terrific defenders with huge potential. We have bigger problems than them, as pointed out centre mid is defensively non existent and the attackers are too spread out. Don't want to go back to 4 at the back either. I agree that Elmo is a half decent right sided midfielder though. Taylor's level of performance hasn't been much if any worse than Trez and El Ghazi's.
Hourahane in behind Jack and Samatta would be good because Jack would be central and in range for long shots, slide rule passes to Samatta and winning pens or free kicks outside the box, Hourahane would be there to take them and if we need to go more defensive we can push him back into a proper three centre mids and push Jack deeper as well.
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I am not convinced that the players we have, (aside from Grealish, McGinn, Mings, Heaton) are currently up to Premier league standard, irrespective of formations.
In reference to setting up others and gaining set pieces, I agree, get Jack playing more centrally to cause problems.
However, I am not in favour of Grealish on corners. They are not a particular strong-point, and would he not be far more useful in or around the box as and when the ball breaks?
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Targett is one of the best crossers of the ball in the league. I'd put him on corners.
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Targett is one of the best crossers of the ball in the league. I'd put him on corners.
Isn’t he already?
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Now you've got me thinking!
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He was definitely plodding from side to side against Spuds.
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I am not convinced that the players we have, (aside from Grealish, McGinn, Mings, Heaton) are currently up to Premier league standard, irrespective of formations.
In reference to setting up others and gaining set pieces, I agree, get Jack playing more centrally to cause problems.
However, I am not in favour of Grealish on corners. They are not a particular strong-point, and would he not be far more useful in or around the box as and when the ball breaks?
Tend to agree with all that
I think there’s a few that can improve and others who will be better when they have fully adjusted to the premier league if we stay in it
but there’s a load who are what they are that doesn’t meet the required Standard I’m afraid
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I said it before, but I'd go:
Nyland
Gilbert Engels Mings Taylor
Elmo Luiz Jack Nakamba Targett
Samatta
Jack back in the middle. We wouldn't lose anything with Elmo and Targett out wide, because at least they can both cross and Trez and El Ghazi are shite. It's going Full Bruce of course, but we need some clean sheets.
Who are you? And what have you done with Risso? The Risso whose posts I remember reading, had borderline homicidal feelings towards Neil Taylor!
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Desperate times call for desperate measures. I don't like Taylor in the team, but he is more defensively minded than Targett, and sticking him at left back would let us move Targett further up to try to link with Jack. The alternative would be to use Hause at left back.
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I can't say I disagree tbh, I like Hause right up until the moment he has to play the ball.
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Desperate times call for desperate measures. I don't like Taylor in the team, but he is more defensively minded than Targett, and sticking him at left back would let us move Targett further up to try to link with Jack. The alternative would be to use Hause at left back.
I’ve seen this before people going for Taylor because of his defensive qualities
I think it’s because he doesn’t venture forward as much but he has little to zero defensive qualities at all
if he’s the best we got them we are championship and deserve to be
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I said it before, but I'd go:
Nyland
Gilbert Engels Mings Taylor
Elmo Luiz Jack Nakamba Targett
Samatta
Jack back in the middle. We wouldn't lose anything with Elmo and Targett out wide, because at least they can both cross and Trez and El Ghazi are shite. It's going Full Bruce of course, but we need some clean sheets.
Christ, Steve Bruce used get pelters for playing Elmo on right wing occasionally in the championship! Four full backs won't improve the leaking hole in the middle of the pitch. I'm not sure what combination would, mind. Hause particularly but also Konsa are really struggling now so I do think trying Engels/Mings is worth a go. They were solid earlier on in the year. Nyland behind them, my preference is for a keeper who looks as if he might make a few saves.
Targett was beyond useless at left back and I'm sorry but I can't have a return for Taylor in any shape or form. Not ideal but might be worth trying Hause as a stopper there, Pulis style. Maybe a change on the other flank for a couple of games might be no harm to give Guilbert a breather, Elmo is usually solid enough anyway. A sitting back four means going more direct for a while at least until McGinn comes back. We have no other options in midfield except to go with three and Grealish dropping in. A big lump up top with Samatta. AEG has a lot of trust to regain and he can do it from the bench.
-----------------Nyland
Elmo, Engels, Mings, Hause
-----Luiz, Nakamba, Hourihane
-----------------Grealish
-------Baston/Davis, Samatta
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A while ago, many of us on here clamoured for another formation to be used. It's now been used and two things remain; the players aren't good enough to play either formation. Secondly, the club didn't address the need for a midfield ball-winner and that leaves us wide open. I guess the other things is, if you keep making schoolboy mistakes, it doesn't matter what formation you play.
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I think that having Phillips from Leeds would have made a difference this season.
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I said it before, but I'd go:
Nyland
Gilbert Engels Mings Taylor
Elmo Luiz Jack Nakamba Targett
Samatta
Jack back in the middle. We wouldn't lose anything with Elmo and Targett out wide, because at least they can both cross and Trez and El Ghazi are shite. It's going Full Bruce of course, but we need some clean sheets.
It's not Full Bruce, it's Full McLeish. Horrendous. If we aren't even going to try to win I'd rather they told us now and saved me a journey.
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I think that having Phillips from Leeds would have made a difference this season.
100% Imagine if we'd had him and Maupay / Benrahma instead of Marv, Wesley & Trez?
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I think that having Phillips from Leeds would have made a difference this season.
100% Imagine if we'd had him and Maupay / Benrahma instead of Marv, Wesley & Trez?
Absolutely. However, I'm pretty sure it would have cost us a lot more than we could afford.
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I think that having Phillips from Leeds would have made a difference this season.
100% Imagine if we'd had him and Maupay / Benrahma instead of Marv, Wesley & Trez?
said on the radio today that Maupay misses more chances than any other striker in the premier league as a ratio of goals per chances
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I’d go for 433 on Sunday. Our midfield is weak at just 2. Luiz Marv and Hourihane in there for me.
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I'd go 3-6-1. Pack the midfield as much as possible.
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last time we played them Pep played two up front when he was asked why he said as soon as he saw Villa playing a back 5 he stuck two up front
didn’t pan out well for us
so if we go defensive again we will be in the same boat as last time
I know whatever team Smith puts out will most probably lose but I’d rather go down swinging
at least try and have a go that all I want to see
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Luiz and Marvellous on the pitch at the same time is definitely a bad idea. They offer very little defensively and going forward. Luiz is a lightweight invisible man and Marvellous has one good game in eight. I’d swap one of them out for CH as at least he can create and score even if he is also rather invisible.
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4-2-3-1
Konsa could do a role as a DM alongside Nakamba and then have 3 attackers and Samata up front.
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4-2-3-1
Konsa could do a role as a DM alongside Nakamba and then have 3 attackers and Samata up front.
In a cup final?
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Been thinking about what is going to be the best formation for us in the run-in. We need to get it spot on, as we can't afford to get it wrong and need as competitive as we can in every single game.
The dilemma is that although Mings and Engels as a pair are probably our strongest central defensive option, our full-back options are not great defensively and this would be exposed in a back four. Guilbert, Elmohamady and Targett are more suited to playing wing-back, but then only Mings and possibly Konsa look comfortable playing in a back three.
I think we simply need to play three in midfield and try and get a bit of solidity in there. For all his nice touches, I feel Douglas Luiz is more suited to coming off the bench at the moment. I would potentially look at the option of playing Konsa alongside Marvellous to try and tighten things up a bit with someone playing in a more advanced role in front of them.
Who that someone is depends on what formation we play in the final third. I like Jack Grealish in that advanced wide left role, as he links up well with Targett, but would also potentially like to see him behind a front two. If we go 4-5-1 like we did on Sunday, with Grealish supporting Samatta, I wonder whether we go with Elmo and Targett as our wide players just to try and make us a bit more solid, with either Hause or Taylor coming in at left-back.
I think Dean Smith and his staff have got some big decisions to make and need to get it right if we are going to stay up.
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We need to be fluid and change with the circumstances. Everyone was happy when we went from a back 4 to a 3 and now people want a 4 again. It all depends on the opposition, who's fit etc.
We've done well and badly with both. Let's hope we pick the right ones against the right teams.
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Basically it changes when I say it does.
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Basically it changes when I say it does.
Some of us still haven't recovered fully from your last reign of terror.
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Silence!
You'll be fisting pumping in the aisles at a glorious 0-0.
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We need to be fluid and change with the circumstances. Everyone was happy when we went from a back 4 to a 3 and now people want a 4 again. It all depends on the opposition, who's fit etc.
We've done well and badly with both. Let's hope we pick the right ones against the right teams.
It’s also the personnel. It’s March and I’m not sure that we know, or certainly at least haven’t consistently played, our best XI.
Obviously there have been various, and generally understandable, reasons for this but I think it’s telling that we have only one player that has played over 2000 minutes whereas Sheffield United, Leicester and Wolves all have eight or nine that have. It’s not hugely surprising that we have been inconsistent and look quite disjointed.
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We need to be fluid and change with the circumstances. Everyone was happy when we went from a back 4 to a 3 and now people want a 4 again. It all depends on the opposition, who's fit etc.
We've done well and badly with both. Let's hope we pick the right ones against the right teams.
It’s also the personnel. It’s March and I’m not sure that we know, or certainly at least haven’t consistently played, our best XI.
Obviously there have been various, and generally understandable, reasons for this but I think it’s telling that we have only one player that has played over 2000 minutes whereas Sheffield United, Leicester and Wolves all have eight or nine that have. It’s not hugely surprising that we have been inconsistent and look quite disjointed.
Agree. I think Wolves and Sheff Utd are examples of teams who have a pretty consistent formation and way of playing, and it works for them.
I take Drummond's point about the need for flexibility, but I'm not sure we have the personnel for that. The problem I see I'd that whichever formation we play, it leaves us with problems in certain areas. Three CBs - Engels struggles in that formation and Hause doesn't really look up to it. Four at the back - Engels and Mings is probably our best CB partnership, but the full-backs are suspect defensively.
There are similar issues in other areas. Jack has looked most effective this season in a wide left position with Targett supporting him from a wing-back position. To play that formation, we could only play two in midfield and we get overrun in there when we do that.
It will be interesting to see how we line up against Leicester and whether Dean Smith throws up a few surprises.
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I f-cked that table of info up! I'll have to try again
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4-5-1 in defence. 4-2-3-1 going forward. I think a big issue we have is not supporting our backline enough through the spine of midfield. Two need to sit and stay quite disciplined. Then we can attack with the 3 behind Samagoal. A frustrating thing for me with Nakamba has been a reluctance to really get into the opposition. He seems like he holds back sometimes. He was a lot better the other day, and his form has largely picked up through Jan, but he'd had a couple of poor games again in the league.
Obviously he was a bit too aggressive with that Aguero tackle, but I'd like to see him be a nuisance. He's our sitter, so he's got to be a pain in the arse all game. There's been too many games as a whole side where the opposition seem to have limitless time on the ball and our closing and pressing is poor. If Nakamba isn't going to do that, or has been told to play cautiously, then there's no point playing him.
We need aggression. For me Nakamba shouldn't cross the half way line. If he has Drinkwater or Dougy alongside, or better yet SJM, the other can break forward intermittently, but stay pretty disciplined too.
The three, at the moment I'd go Grealish left, Conor middle (let him take up that pocket of space) when we're in possession) and probably AEG right. Then have a bit of flexibility. Grealish can come in, Conor drift left. That worked a few times when Conor had a brief run earlier in the season.
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If we assume Jack, Ally and John McGinn (when he returns from injury) should all be definite starters, then what about the rest of our midfielders/wingers?
Danny Drinkwater should never start another game for Villa. It's worth noting that in the 4 games he's started we've only managed 4 points and those were only secured after he'd been substituted off (Brighton away and Watford home)!
There's a case for starting Trez in more games, perhaps at the expense of Anwar, to shake things up a bit. In the 13 games he's started the team has won 14 points. Similarly In the 10 games Conor has started Villa have won 11 points. Marv should be our starting dcm for the remainder of the season as he's a little more consistent than Luiz (Villa have won 15 points from his 17 starts).
As for Luiz I still think he's best and he has more impact, when coming off the bench. He's been subbed on 8 times this season helping the team to win 11 points in those games.
Stats are just stats and can be read in many different ways, but when we need at least 12 points to avoid relegation (with 11 games remaining), it makes sense to select players who average at least a point a game when they start matches or when they are subbed on. UTV!
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If we assume Jack, Ally and John McGinn (when he returns from injury) should all be definite starters, then what about the rest of our midfielders/wingers?
Danny Drinkwater should never start another game for Villa. It's worth noting that in the 4 games he's started we've only managed 4 points and those were only secured after he'd been substituted off (Brighton away and Watford home)!
There's a case for starting Trez in more games, perhaps at the expense of Anwar, to shake things up a bit. In the 13 games he's started the team has won 14 points. Similarly In the 10 games Conor has started Villa have won 11 points. Marv should be our starting dcm for the remainder of the season as he's a little more consistent than Luiz (Villa have won 15 points from his 17 starts).
As for Luiz I still think he's best and he has more impact, when coming off the bench. He's been subbed on 8 times this season helping the team to win 11 points in those games.
Stats are just stats and can be read in many different ways, but when we need at least 12 points to avoid relegation (with 11 games remaining), it makes sense to select players who average at least a point a game when they start matches or when they are subbed on. UTV!
Konsa was supposed to be a centre half / defensive midfielder when he signed wasn't he? If we go back to four at the back with Engels and Mings at CB, then I would definitely consider pairing Konsa and Nakamba in midfield with a more attacking option in front of them.
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I think it's time Villa and Smith go back to what he knows with the formation of the 4-1-4-1 formation- fluid to the attacking 4-3- 3 to the Defensive organised shape of 4-5-1.
Set up like that for the remainder of the season.
It's what brought us the promotion and what the initial system was before the change to a 3 centre back