Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Flin5tone on December 22, 2019, 01:00:26 PM
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We've heard from Smith himself, the media, purslow etc that the owners are super rich so now is the time to see if they are serious about the club. Everton (always considered them to be about same level as us) have just gone out and brought in a very expensive world class manager who will be backed.
We have DS a nice guy and villa fan who has managed only Brentford and Walsall and is failing to adapt to the Premier League, we either accept we're now a Championship club or act like the big boys they say we are
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Considering how much money they have ploughed into the club so far, I'd suggest they are very serious about it.
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You don't know if the owners are "serious about the club"?
Jesus fucking Christ.
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I'll be convinced at the end of January
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I think we will find out sooner than that.
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Put in hundreds of millions and be told to put in more or sell to someone who will. Take out tens of millions and become Mr Aston Villa. What a strange world we live in.
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Put in hundreds of millions and be told to put in more or sell to someone who will. Take out tens of millions and become Mr Aston Villa. What a strange world we live in.
Oh, oh, Dave has started a Doug and Randy thread!
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I'll be convinced at the end of January
After everything they've done, you're not convinced?
I suppose if they can the manager you've been slagging off for God knows how long, that will convince you yeah??
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If they make the changes to keep us in the Premier league and invest in players and a manager capable of beating teams like Southampton at home I'll be convinced
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If they make the changes to keep us in the Premier league and invest in players and a manager capable of beating teams like Southampton at home I'll be convinced
That's great. Can we close the thread now?
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Literally dragging the club from the abyss of Xia and Wyness.
Pumping in ridiculous amounts just to carry on.
Putting in a whole new infrastructure, plans for the ground redevelopment. An off the pitch team we've never seen before.
But as long as they sack a manager you've never liked because we didn't win a game yesterday, you'll be convinced they're serious?
I'll ask you again, regardless of your obvious thoughts on the manager, you're not convinced after everything they've done, they're serious??
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They have spent hundreds of millions in the 18 months they've owned the club and you aren't convinced?
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I guess Flintstone is either not being serious or a bit dim. Such a ridiclous thread. Thanks to them, we still have a club and one in the Premier League.
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They have spent hundreds of millions in the 18 months they've owned the club and you aren't convinced?
Is simply spending money enough, or would you want to see some evidence that they know what they're doing as well? Even Xia outspent most other clubs at our level when he first arrived. I'm not remotely comparing the two regimes, but we do need to see a response from the owners this January. If not in a managerial replacement, then at least in some acquisitions to give him a chance.
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It seems a bit premature to start questioning the owners.
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They have spent hundreds of millions in the 18 months they've owned the club and you aren't convinced?
Is simply spending money enough, or would you want to see some evidence that they know what they're doing as well? Even Xia outspent most other clubs at our level when he first arrived. I'm not remotely comparing the two regimes, but we do need to see a response from the owners this January. If not in a managerial replacement, then at least in some acquisitions to give him a chance.
It's not just money on the pitch they have pumped in, it's off it as well and it's been quite a lot. It's something that's easily forgotten.
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If they make the changes to keep us in the Premier league and invest in players and a manager capable of beating teams like Southampton at home I'll be convinced
'Teams like Southampton'? They are in their eighth consecutive year in the Premier League. Last year we were the fifth best team in the Championship after three seasons down there. Prior to that we spent five years struggling in the Premier League, the 'high point' of those years being two consecutive fifteenth place finishes. I really don't think we should be looking down our noses at 'teams like Southampton' after the way we have performed for the majority of the last eight years.
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We should be beating them up if we want to stay up though.
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They should hand Poch a £12m p/a 5 year deal so I can nurse a semi for half a decade.
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They should hand Poch a £12m p/a 5 year deal so I can nurse a semi for half a decade.
Yep
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Watford have addressed their problem and will now stay up amazing what a new manager brings.
Bottom 3 Southampton at home and the Manor of the defeat is simply unacceptable.
The owners can change all this and keep us a Premier league club.
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Watford have addressed their problem and will now stay up amazing what a new manager brings.
Bottom 3 Southampton at home and the Manor of the defeat is simply unacceptable.
The owners can change all this and keep us a Premier league club.
They win one game under Nigel Pearson and they're now fixed?
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Watford have addressed their problem and will now stay up amazing what a new manager brings.
Bottom 3 Southampton at home and the Manor of the defeat is simply unacceptable.
The owners can change all this and keep us a Premier league club.
Are you pissed up?
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They should hand Poch a £12m p/a 5 year deal so I can nurse a semi for half a decade.
I’d be hard for weeks. Maybe he could buy into the ‘project’
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Watford have addressed their problem and will now stay up amazing what a new manager brings.
Bottom 3 Southampton at home and the Manor of the defeat is simply unacceptable.
The owners can change all this and keep us a Premier league club.
...and finally prove to you they're really serious yeah?
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They have spent hundreds of millions in the 18 months they've owned the club and you aren't convinced?
Is simply spending money enough, or would you want to see some evidence that they know what they're doing as well? Even Xia outspent most other clubs at our level when he first arrived. I'm not remotely comparing the two regimes, but we do need to see a response from the owners this January. If not in a managerial replacement, then at least in some acquisitions to give him a chance.
We can only go by what they've done so far and complaining about any of it is fucking ridiculous.
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We will see come the end of the season
Watford with a very good Deeney and a solid manager will stay in this league, they're far too good to go down
Not pissed no, I don't drink
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I have no doubt they're serious and even though some of our signings haven't worked out (so far) they've put their hands in their pockets a lot. But as we know better than most, good intentions don't necessarily translate into sound decision-making. If things don't pick up soon - by which I mean instantly - they've got a very big decision to make.
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We will see come the end of the season
Watford with a very good Deeney and a solid manager will stay in this league, they're far too good to go down
Not pissed no, I don't drink
This is just bollocks. May be you should take up drink?
Can we lock this thread please?
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We will see come the end of the season
Watford with a very good Deeney and a solid manager will stay in this league, they're far too good to go down
Not pissed no, I don't drink
Excellent. A couple of Pearson, Deeney types at Villa Park, and at least they'll get the recognition of being serious owners from you. Phew!
I was only thinking this morning, with Watford on 9 points that they were waaaaay too good to do gown.
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I don't nose. All I know is somebody has just given themselves away with their last post. UTV!!
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We will see come the end of the season
Watford with a very good Deeney and a solid manager will stay in this league, they're far too good to go down
Not pissed no, I don't drink
This is just bollocks. May be you should take up drink?
Can we lock this thread please?
I might have a tipple on Boxing day if we beat Norwich
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We will see come the end of the season
Watford with a very good Deeney and a solid manager will stay in this league, they're far too good to go down
Not pissed no, I don't drink
This is just bollocks. May be you should take up drink?
Can we lock this thread please?
I might have a tipple on Boxing day if we beat Norwich
Even though you don't drink?
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I don't nose. All I know is somebody has just given themselves away with their last post. UTV!!
Come on Abbey, anyone can be a big fan of Steve Bruce, and have huge appreciation for Troy Deeney. I'm off to the Tait gallery.
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I don't nose. All I know is somebody has just given themselves away with their last post. UTV!!
Come on Abbey, anyone can be a big fan of Steve Bruce, and have huge appreciation for Troy Deeney. I'm off to the Tait gallery.
KRO
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They've done well so far but then getting us promoted was the "easier" part of the brief.
Much more difficult to keep on making the right decisions when the aim is to establish us back in the premier league and eventually have us challenging top 6 as Wolves are doing every year now.
It can be done but turbulance will be encountered along the way.
Lerner and co became completely clueless when they had to do big decisions like replacing managers and inevitably got the decisions mostly wrong. There was other stuff going on of course but get the right manager and the rest falls into place for a few years.
Big month ahead. Looking forward to actually see what we do. Things look bleak atm but it was only 3 weeks ago we were 4-5 points clear of the bottom 3 so still a long way to go.
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I'm a nose for having an opinion on a manager and a player 🙄
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I'm a nose for having an opinion on a manager and a player 🙄
Your post was about the owners and their seriousness.
I'm not sure how you managed through the Lerner years. Do you remember what Tom Fox used to call us?
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Not sure if anyone has heard this but CP is of the opinion that promotion last season placed us ahead of the "overall plan"
Ie they were not expecting promotion - I assume this why they went with Smith rather than someone with some/more experience of managing successfully in the top division - I find it hard to comprehend they may be willing take a step backwards (relegation) and regroup - starting all over .
Lest we forget the club was facing extinction just months ago with the new owners stabilising the finances - if they are prepared to accept relegation and keep Smith I am Sure two or three of our better players will be sold ,probably in the summer - I am struggling to come to some understanding as to why Smith was recently given a new contract - the timing seems odd. I fear there will be more upheaval in the coming months especially if Smith is retained and fails to change results on the pitch - the biggest shame is that the euphoria generated by promotion will be dissipate and the fan base become disgruntled ......we , the fans think we are a "big club" - it's time for the owners to prove this and make some kind of statement e.g. appoint a coach/manager who can cope with the immense pressures of keeping a team in the Premier League - as much as we want Smith to succeed it's just not working out - shame but there is no room for sentiment
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No way are these owners contemplating accepting relegation.
They may not be able to stop it though.
they will make a decision to either back-or sack the manager.
Anything other than a win on Boxing Day and Smith is toast.
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Yes, if we were to be relegated then we'd effectively be a year behind Purslow's overall plan.
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Not sure if anyone has heard this but CP is of the opinion that promotion last season placed us ahead of the "overall plan"
Ie they were not expecting promotion - I assume this why they went with Smith rather than someone with some/more experience of managing successfully in the top division - I find it hard to comprehend they may be willing take a step backwards (relegation) and regroup - starting all over .
Lest we forget the club was facing extinction just months ago with the new owners stabilising the finances - if they are prepared to accept relegation and keep Smith I am Sure two or three of our better players will be sold ,probably in the summer - I am struggling to come to some understanding as to why Smith was recently given a new contract - the timing seems odd. I fear there will be more upheaval in the coming months especially if Smith is retained and fails to change results on the pitch - the biggest shame is that the euphoria generated by promotion will be dissipate and the fan base become disgruntled ......we , the fans think we are a "big club" - it's time for the owners to prove this and make some kind of statement e.g. appoint a coach/manager who can cope with the immense pressures of keeping a team in the Premier League - as much as we want Smith to succeed it's just not working out - shame but there is no room for sentiment
As you're probably aware I don't always agree with your posts Clive but think you're spot on with that post.
Next two games will tell us if Dean has it in him right now to keep us in the league. If they go badly I think it's going to have to be a "you're fired" with losts of regret.
Lots on here like taking sly digs at Wolves but ultimately this is a club backing what they're saying they want to do. Couple of duff managerial appoinments e.g. appointing Paul Lambert and then they went out and got a reasonably proven top level one in Nuno. Got 4-5 top quality players throughout their side. Before Spurs game they were two points off 4th and comfortably in knock outs of europa so not far off where we were at this stage of 08/09 season.
If they can do it surely we can get there in 2/3 seasons with smart and brave decisions. If that means letting Dean go so be it. It might be good for his managerial career in the long run and he'll always remain a bit of a mini legend for getting us back up whatever happens in the next week.
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Well i kinda of agree with the OP :o
If Smith is not replaced with Poch by January 31st and not backed by bringing in Messi, Ronaldo and Bale, then im done with these tight fisted chump owners of ours.
Luckily, some of our fans were not about in 1976, when we almost got relegated after coming up. Saunders had his critics, but was allowed to put in place the bricks that landed us our greatest triumph. :-[
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Which has nothing to do with our present situation
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Which has nothing to do with our present situation
Patience Grasshopper 8)
Im still confident we will stay up and progress from there. Yes, its a mess at the moment, and i do think its going to be squeaky bum time to the end of the season, but i fear sacking Smith now would be suicidal.
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They will be having discussions no doubt not just about the manager but people behind the scenes.
A lot of their money was spent this season and from what I read Smith wasn't the ultimate decision maker on who we bought, that person will also be looked at.
Thursday is make or break for Smith lose or draw that one and I think it will be the end.
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Which has nothing to do with our present situation
Patience Grasshopper 8)
Im still confident we will stay up and progress from there. Yes, its a mess at the moment, and i do think its going to be squeaky bum time to the end of the season, but i fear sacking Smith now would be suicidal.
I respect your opinion DS but by equal measure keeping him when he is clearly unable (for whatever reason) to adopt different tactics or strategies during a game or is too stubborn to do so then the owners need to make an unpleasant decision
What is now beginning to sit uncomfortably with me is the manner in which players are being brought to the club - ie potentially not with the coach's'blessing ..... it looks a little bit suspect .....ie Pitarch and players contracted through him
I appreciate that we are short of forwards but I fail to see why Smith is reluctant to hook Wesley ....is there something in Wesleys contract that states he must play every game ....sounds far fetched but something doesn't feel right
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Our recruitment is led by the DoF but of course Smith and Purslow are involved.
There Re various comparisons being made to other managers and clubs. The reality is that we are closer to Fulham in the changes the clubs had to make after promotion.
This league is unforgiving. The clubs that do best are the ones who have a clear and adopted approach and personnel. Our manager came in a year ago, had a bad spell then a record breaking one. The squad changed in the summer so we lack consistency.
We're ahead of the plan as nobody expected us to be promoted after the start we made last season.
I think we should stick. If we continue to be hammered with no sign of improvement, then maybe ask the question again.
I want us to be successful, a new dynasty, I hope results improve and that we stay up and where I was confident a while ago I'm less so now.
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I think they messed up big time with the 4 year Deal, I said at the time it was crazy handing out a deal like that , if we had lost to Newcastle that night i don't think it would have been given to him. Since the Deal it's been terrible with a one off ok performance against a poor Man U team.
They have spent a lot of money as pointed out , we can make a change now and stay up, new ideas,new style, even if it's a short contract until May
We've all praised the new owners and board but the deal is absolutely crazy. where was Dean going? he's landed his dream job, nobody in the PL would want him and he would not leave to go to the Championship so why FOUR years?
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I can see another opinion but in due respect and maybe in response to above post after what's happened the last decade having some affinity to the fans and supporters is deemed the rationale.
Heck I'm not first local let alone native English though I feel more comfortable with Smith and a home grown coach who has developed his methods deservingly given his chance and opportunity. (Which he has fully taken - achieving promotion in 6 months or so)
Dean Smith gives the native villa fan a connect, he's relatable.
Going now for experienced or expensive may just go and give us another disconnect.
If we were bottom 3 in the championship right now I would be writing such similar sentiment as to above post and others discontent
But 4 year contract?
Stability and belief in the coaching methods would be the straightforward answer.
It's not even a year since Aston Villa made a historic record of 10 wins in a row .
And what lead to that wonderful promotion play off final in May.
Up the Villa.
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They will be having discussions no doubt not just about the manager but people behind the scenes.
A lot of their money was spent this season and from what I read Smith wasn't the ultimate decision maker on who we bought, that person will also be looked at.
Thursday is make or break for Smith lose or draw that one and I think it will be the end.
Getting extreme temperatures
Getting extreme views! (Smith out if Villa don't wins boxing day Really?)
Stay safe though
Like Villa.
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The timing of the new contract was almost exactly 1 year in. That tells me that he had a break clause to renegotiate after 1 year if we’d achieved certain KPI’s, promotion being 1. There will be caveats for dismissal such as being outside the bottom 3 as Lambert was reported to have had which was why they pulled the trigger then when they did, less compo.
The new contract won’t save Smith, the overall vision might. I have 100% faith in our owners.
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Not sure if anyone has heard this but CP is of the opinion that promotion last season placed us ahead of the "overall plan"
Ie they were not expecting promotion - I assume this why they went with Smith rather than someone with some/more experience of managing successfully in the top division - I find it hard to comprehend they may be willing take a step backwards (relegation) and regroup - starting all over .
Lest we forget the club was facing extinction just months ago with the new owners stabilising the finances - if they are prepared to accept relegation and keep Smith I am Sure two or three of our better players will be sold ,probably in the summer - I am struggling to come to some understanding as to why Smith was recently given a new contract - the timing seems odd. I fear there will be more upheaval in the coming months especially if Smith is retained and fails to change results on the pitch - the biggest shame is that the euphoria generated by promotion will be dissipate and the fan base become disgruntled ......we , the fans think we are a "big club" - it's time for the owners to prove this and make some kind of statement e.g. appoint a coach/manager who can cope with the immense pressures of keeping a team in the Premier League - as much as we want Smith to succeed it's just not working out - shame but there is no room for sentiment
As you're probably aware I don't always agree with your posts Clive but think you're spot on with that post.
Next two games will tell us if Dean has it in him right now to keep us in the league. If they go badly I think it's going to have to be a "you're fired" with losts of regret.
Lots on here like taking sly digs at Wolves but ultimately this is a club backing what they're saying they want to do. Couple of duff managerial appoinments e.g. appointing Paul Lambert and then they went out and got a reasonably proven top level one in Nuno. Got 4-5 top quality players throughout their side. Before Spurs game they were two points off 4th and comfortably in knock outs of europa so not far off where we were at this stage of 08/09 season.
If they can do it surely we can get there in 2/3 seasons with smart and brave decisions. If that means letting Dean go so be it. It might be good for his managerial career in the long run and he'll always remain a bit of a mini legend for getting us back up whatever happens in the next week.
Wolves have a pretty unique structure in place which has allowed them to get top,international players of a certain nationality at affordable prices. Still needs managing properly though and they have done that well. It's a pretty unique model though and not one every club can follow.
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Yes I have 100% faith that don't have owners who dismiss a head coach after issued a 4 year contract less than 4 weeks ago.
Because it they are owners like that then that's a lot of disappointment to the club I like.
Anyway the CEO Purslow would be negotiating that whole situation and I think him and Smith are ok.
Part of me feels they would all love JT in the head coach role but his lack of experience meant the compromise came with him being part of a coaching team led by Dean Smith.
Someone somewhere had the idea to keep JT connected to Villa as for marketing and growing the brand the owners and CEO would recognise having a well established footballer being part of villa is a value asset to the brand and business of football club.
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Yes I have 100% faith that don't have owners who dismiss a head coach after issued a 4 year contract less than 4 weeks ago.
Because it they are owners like that then that's a lot of disappointment to the club I like.
Anyway the CEO Purslow would be negotiating that whole situation and I think him and Smith are ok.
Part of me feels they would all love JT in the head coach role but his lack of experience meant the compromise came with him being part of a coaching team led by Dean Smith.
Someone somewhere had the idea to keep JT connected to Villa as for marketing and growing the brand the owners and CEO would recognise having a well established footballer being part of villa is a value asset to the brand and business of football club.
Oh dear.
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Yes I have 100% faith that don't have owners who dismiss a head coach after issued a 4 year contract less than 4 weeks ago.
Because it they are owners like that then that's a lot of disappointment to the club I like.
Anyway the CEO Purslow would be negotiating that whole situation and I think him and Smith are ok.
Part of me feels they would all love JT in the head coach role but his lack of experience meant the compromise came with him being part of a coaching team led by Dean Smith.
Someone somewhere had the idea to keep JT connected to Villa as for marketing and growing the brand the owners and CEO would recognise having a well established footballer being part of villa is a value asset to the brand and business of football club.
I needed a good laugh. Thank you.
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Yes I have 100% faith that don't have owners who dismiss a head coach after issued a 4 year contract less than 4 weeks ago.
Because it they are owners like that then that's a lot of disappointment to the club I like.
Anyway the CEO Purslow would be negotiating that whole situation and I think him and Smith are ok.
Part of me feels they would all love JT in the head coach role but his lack of experience meant the compromise came with him being part of a coaching team led by Dean Smith.
Someone somewhere had the idea to keep JT connected to Villa as for marketing and growing the brand the owners and CEO would recognise having a well established footballer being part of villa is a value asset to the brand and business of football club.
Oh dear.
You took the words right out of my mouth, mate.
Utter drivel.
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Right then a few weeks on and we've signed a 37 year old Goalie and Danny Drinkwater who have played 4 times between them in a year? Acceptable?
They did save us but we've basically just spent what we got for promotion. If we go down they sell Grealish, Mings, Mcginn and balance the books. It's looking like that's the plan at the moment, no serious decisions being made that make it look like they care about staying in this league
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Right then a few weeks on and we've signed a 37 year old Goalie and Danny Drinkwater who have played 4 times between them in a year? Acceptable?
They did save us but we've basically just spent what we got for promotion. If we go down they sell Grealish, Mings, Mcginn and balance the books. It's looking like that's the plan at the moment, no serious decisions being made that make it look like they care about staying in this league
It could be they are trying to do it on the cheap and ok with the consequences of relegation.
They would certainly be in a position to get some of their money back from sales.
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It's not the owners fault. They are being let down badly by a recruitment team who have tried to be too clever and manager who has no versatility.
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The owners have been exemplary so far. They are the very least of our worries thank goodness.
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There's more to being a good owner than just spending money. Lerner and Xia both did that.
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I think the game has officially gone if we are having a go at the owners. They have tried to do everything right in my opinion. Despite FFP threats last season, they still backed the manager in the January window and it is arguable that the signing of Mings was the catalyst to sort the shambolic defence out. They then decided to spend the entire TV revenue on rebuilding the squad - which was needed urgently.
All this in addition to spending a fortune keeping us afloat and closing working capital gaps and paying off Lerner after the previous charlatan left Beijing before the police turned up.
The only possible semblance of criticism that could be levelled at them is the hiring of the CEO, the Head Coach and DOF. However, the CEO in my view is a very competent Administrator with a track record in the game. The Head Coach was one most of us craved to rebuild the club. The only one we didn't really know was the DOF but again he had a track record in the role. There was no indication that any of these appointments would fail and if you are going to employ them you have to trust them to run the thing. That it hasn't worked out is once again a failure of the recruitment policy pure and simple. Most of the blame for that I attribute to the Richard Madeley clone.
Sometimes we deserve every bit of criticism that comes our way from other clubs and fans. Most clubs fans would die to have our owners.
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It's hard to point the finger solely in their direction but it's increasingly looking like poor judgement to allow a recruitment strategy that has brought in £130 million of players with arguably only 2 being of PL standard, no backup for Wesley and now a knee jerk change to recruitment strategy that has brought us Drinkwater & Reina albeit on loan. As Depeche Mode once sang, get the balance right, we seem to lurch from one extreme to the other with little or no balance & a similar all or nothing approach that led to Xia's downfall.
Talking of Xia, what's the latest on him? Last seen on a wanted poster.
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The issue is that we couldn't spend a shit load more because of FFP but we needed a shed load of players. How else could we have done it?
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The issue is that we couldn't spend a shit load more because of FFP but we needed a shed load of players. How else could we have done it?
Unfortunately, the shed (squad) is now full of shit
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It's hard to point the finger solely in their direction but it's increasingly looking like poor judgement to allow a recruitment strategy that has brought in £130 million of players with arguably only 2 being of PL standard, no backup for Wesley and now a knee jerk change to recruitment strategy that has brought us Drinkwater & Reina albeit on loan. As Depeche Mode once sang, get the balance right, we seem to lurch from one extreme to the other with little or no balance & a similar all or nothing approach that led to Xia's downfall.
Talking of Xia, what's the latest on him? Last seen on a wanted poster.
To be fair, regarding the Drinkwater and Reina signings they are typical 'take a punt' January window signings. Most clubs are grateful if they can land one player who an make a real difference in January. Hopefully our real difference player will be a new striker.
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What's interesting to me is who decided last summer loan deals were of no interest to us and also signing any player who might be over 25 or have several hundred games in premier league wasn't a consideration bar getting in Heaton.
I'm guessing Purslow for the loan decision given the interview he did straight after play offs and Suso and DS for the young and hungry part 2 approach.
Quite a U turn considering our first two signings this window and many other players linked.
Wonder what the owners think of all this from those they've employed? Any owner who invests 100m + would want to see a real flair player or two or a difference maker to get people off their seats from all those signings so I imagine they'd be frustrated from what they've seen so far.
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The issue is that we couldn't spend a shit load more because of FFP but we needed a shed load of players. How else could we have done it?
Unfortunately, the shed (squad) is now full of shit
I guess that's about how you view stuff. I see it as opportunity and players who will develop and get better (which was the strategy if you remember). You see it as shit as they aren't doing the job right now.
There is promise and good performances just not as often as we'd like and need.
That was a humiliating defeat yesterday but we had a good draw at Leicester in the cup and a couple of wins in the festive league games.
We're bound to be inconsistent.
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The issue is that we couldn't spend a shit load more because of FFP but we needed a shed load of players. How else could we have done it?
Unfortunately, the shed (squad) is now full of shit
I guess that's about how you view stuff. I see it as opportunity and players who will develop and get better (which was the strategy if you remember). You see it as shit as they aren't doing the job right now.
There is promise and good performances just not as often as we'd like and need.
That was a humiliating defeat yesterday but we had a good draw at Leicester in the cup and a couple of wins in the festive league games.
We're bound to be inconsistent.
I guess my glass is half empty right now ......but I think the recruitment has been negligent in so far as we have too many newcomers to the League and the country - hence a long bedding in period. Added to that, Smith's belligerent approach to setting the team up and odd selections/ lack of tactical nous
The inconsistency and lack of leadership is going to cost us - the injury to SJM has cost us but he was starting to show signs of fatigue prior to his injury ......faces like Drinkwater and Reina fail to inspire me ......January appears the wrong time to attempt to be bringing in quality signings especially a couple of strikers - if it is factual that Smith wasn't supported to buy players he wanted in the summer it's hardly surprising he isn't performing as the progressive manager we were all hoping we were going to get -
Like a fair few other posters I've been concerned about the lack of goalscorer/strikers - now it appears both the defence and midfield are wanting .....doesn't auger well for the coming months
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There's more to being a good owner than just spending money. Lerner and Xia both did that.
Too bloody true. A fool and his money.....
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Tone didn’t spend his money by any stretch
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Tone didn’t spend his money by any stretch
Certainly not on his footwear.
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What's interesting to me is who decided last summer loan deals were of no interest to us and also signing any player who might be over 25 or have several hundred games in premier league wasn't a consideration bar getting in Heaton.
I'm guessing Purslow for the loan decision given the interview he did straight after play offs and Suso and DS for the young and hungry part 2 approach.
Quite a U turn considering our first two signings this window and many other players linked.
Wonder what the owners think of all this from those they've employed? Any owner who invests 100m + would want to see a real flair player or two or a difference maker to get people off their seats from all those signings so I imagine they'd be frustrated from what they've seen so far.
I think regarding the first point, money is a big factor. Pretty much anyone with 200+ Premier League games under their belt is going to cost a lot. Same with regards to the flair players really - we perhaps could have got more/better than El Ghazi and Trez but it would probably have then meant a back five consisting regularly of Elmo, Taylor, Chester and Steer.
With the loans, I imagine this is most of the decision makers generally agreed on. They were obviously a huge factor in getting us promoted but they were also a big reason we were left with barely half a squad coming into this season. I don’t think Dean Smith loaned many (any?) players at Brentford either.
The fact were are utilising them now is probably much the same as last January - financial implications of permanent signings and player availability.
Also, while I can see the argument for them maybe loaning a few players in the summer, I don’t see it as any huge error. There haven’t really been many successful loan signings in the whole of the league this season.
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The issue is that we couldn't spend a shit load more because of FFP but we needed a shed load of players. How else could we have done it?
Unfortunately, the shed (squad) is now full of shit
I guess that's about how you view stuff. I see it as opportunity and players who will develop and get better (which was the strategy if you remember). You see it as shit as they aren't doing the job right now.
There is promise and good performances just not as often as we'd like and need.
That was a humiliating defeat yesterday but we had a good draw at Leicester in the cup and a couple of wins in the festive league games.
We're bound to be inconsistent.
I guess my glass is half empty right now ......but I think the recruitment has been negligent in so far as we have too many newcomers to the League and the country - hence a long bedding in period. Added to that, Smith's belligerent approach to setting the team up and odd selections/ lack of tactical nous
The inconsistency and lack of leadership is going to cost us - the injury to SJM has cost us but he was starting to show signs of fatigue prior to his injury ......faces like Drinkwater and Reina fail to inspire me ......January appears the wrong time to attempt to be bringing in quality signings especially a couple of strikers - if it is factual that Smith wasn't supported to buy players he wanted in the summer it's hardly surprising he isn't performing as the progressive manager we were all hoping we were going to get -
Like a fair few other posters I've been concerned about the lack of goalscorer/strikers - now it appears both the defence and midfield are wanting .....doesn't auger well for the coming months
In what universe is Smith's approach to setting the team up "belligerent"?
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The issue is that we couldn't spend a shit load more because of FFP but we needed a shed load of players. How else could we have done it?
Unfortunately, the shed (squad) is now full of shit
I guess that's about how you view stuff. I see it as opportunity and players who will develop and get better (which was the strategy if you remember). You see it as shit as they aren't doing the job right now.
There is promise and good performances just not as often as we'd like and need.
That was a humiliating defeat yesterday but we had a good draw at Leicester in the cup and a couple of wins in the festive league games.
We're bound to be inconsistent.
I guess my glass is half empty right now ......but I think the recruitment has been negligent in so far as we have too many newcomers to the League and the country - hence a long bedding in period. Added to that, Smith's belligerent approach to setting the team up and odd selections/ lack of tactical nous
The inconsistency and lack of leadership is going to cost us - the injury to SJM has cost us but he was starting to show signs of fatigue prior to his injury ......faces like Drinkwater and Reina fail to inspire me ......January appears the wrong time to attempt to be bringing in quality signings especially a couple of strikers - if it is factual that Smith wasn't supported to buy players he wanted in the summer it's hardly surprising he isn't performing as the progressive manager we were all hoping we were going to get -
Like a fair few other posters I've been concerned about the lack of goalscorer/strikers - now it appears both the defence and midfield are wanting .....doesn't auger well for the coming months
In what universe is Smith's approach to setting the team up "belligerent"?
My bad SE ..........wrong adjective
Should read obstinate :)
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We've spent a lot of money but, with a couple of exceptions, have bought gbp 8/10 mill players in a league where gbp50/60 mill players is the norm. No wonder we are struggling. I really hope these two are not Lerner mark 2.
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We've spent a lot of money but, with a couple of exceptions, have bought gbp 8/10 mill players in a league where gbp50/60 mill players is the norm. No wonder we are struggling. I really hope these two are not Lerner mark 2.
I believe they are willing to spend whatever it will take. However, they're not idiots like Xia, and they'll have taken advice from Purslow and probably external advisors also on the best way to manage expenditure in light of lingering FFP concerns, both for this season and a potential future season where we're not in the PL anymore, if things go wrong.
All of this stuff represents a fine line to tread for a promoted club. I certainly wouldn't question their willingness to invest so far. I'd certainly question what Suso and Smith have spent their money on, however. As others have said, we needed a certain amount of bodies in, and we had to do so without spending 500m, but there is clearly better quality available around the world for the money we spent. You mention them all being £8-10m players in a league where much higher deals are done, but I don't think the valuations were the issue somehow. Leicester won the league not a million years ago without spending anywhere near as much as we have on players. Sheffield United are flying high with a Championship squad. Loads of others are doing alright with strikers that cost less than Wesley or left-backs that didn't cost as much as Matt Targett.
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We've spent a lot of money but, with a couple of exceptions, have bought gbp 8/10 mill players in a league where gbp50/60 mill players is the norm. No wonder we are struggling. I really hope these two are not Lerner mark 2.
Why is it that the more our owners spend, the more they get criticised for not spending?
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£50/60m signings aren't the norm, there's been approx two dozen in this country all made by the 'big' six.
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The team that trounced us on Sunday spent £150m on just full backs. £100m on 2 centre half.
United spunked £86m on a player and he doesn't play
'The Mighty Reds YNWA' paid £150m on a keeper and a centre half.
The game financially has gone mental
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Sheffield United are benefiting from a stable squad that have mostly been together for two years or so. Villa have not had that luxury and had to throw together a dozen new teammates
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Lerner mark II. Jeez.
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We've spent a lot of money but, with a couple of exceptions, have bought gbp 8/10 mill players in a league where gbp50/60 mill players is the norm. No wonder we are struggling. I really hope these two are not Lerner mark 2.
Words fail me.
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We've spent a lot of money but, with a couple of exceptions, have bought gbp 8/10 mill players in a league where gbp50/60 mill players is the norm. No wonder we are struggling. I really hope these two are not Lerner mark 2.
Words fail me.
With the exception of Liverpool, Manchester City and Manchester United who is paying fifty to sixty million for players? Plus even those three have brought in some money from sales.
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We've spent a lot of money but, with a couple of exceptions, have bought gbp 8/10 mill players in a league where gbp50/60 mill players is the norm. No wonder we are struggling. I really hope these two are not Lerner mark 2.
Words fail me.
With the exception of Liverpool, Manchester City and Manchester United who is paying fifty to sixty million for players? Plus even those three have brought in some money from sales.
Liverpool in particular have played a blinder in offloading their outcasts to Bournemouth and Palace.
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We've spent a lot of money but, with a couple of exceptions, have bought gbp 8/10 mill players in a league where gbp50/60 mill players is the norm. No wonder we are struggling. I really hope these two are not Lerner mark 2.
Words fail me.
They've failed me right from the opening post. Staggering.
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Only Real Madrid had a greater net spend than us this summer, anywhere on the planet. I won't dismiss the owners as penny-pinchers just yet.
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Board out !!!
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I feel Suso is the only person who's under real scrutiny in all honesty
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The team that trounced us on Sunday spent £150m on just full backs. £100m on 2 centre half.
United spunked £86m on a player and he doesn't play
'The Mighty Reds YNWA' paid £150m on a keeper and a centre half.
The game financially has gone mental
What about Sheffield United, then?
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Only Real Madrid had a greater net spend than us this summer, anywhere on the planet. I won't dismiss the owners as penny-pinchers just yet.
The willingness to spend money is not the problem, they've provided plenty of it.
We started the season with three strikers - one expensiveish but unknown quantity signing from Belgian league, one clearly not good enough at this level, and one who has pretty much never scored a goal, and most of the time is injured in any case.
That's fucking dreadful planning.
I can't be arsed with all the "Yeah but they wanted Maupay too!" rubbish because not only did they not get him, they didn't get anyone else. And here we are now getting sucked into the bottom three without a single fit and available striker at the club.
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I feel Suso is the only person who's under real scrutiny in all honesty
I agree. I won't knock the owners at all. The money has always apparently been there but not securing another striker in the summer and our rather underwhelming January moves (yes I accept the January market is tricky) does not reflect well on Suso. And I say that as someone who has a lot of respect for his background and CV.
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It’s all about levels of accountability. The owners appointed Purslow to run the club on their behalf. Who in turn appointed Smith and Suso to manage the coaching and recruitment at the club.
Depending on where you think we’re failing is who should be carrying the can. There’s not much the owners can do short term to fix structural problems.
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The team that trounced us on Sunday spent £150m on just full backs. £100m on 2 centre half.
United spunked £86m on a player and he doesn't play
'The Mighty Reds YNWA' paid £150m on a keeper and a centre half.
The game financially has gone mental
What about Sheffield United, then?
They have a well drilled method of play over the last 3- 4 years and are still playing that high energy game. Each year there is promoted team that do it.
We lost 10 players and were a team who finished 5th and won in the play offs. We have almost bought an entire team.
I would imagine Sheffield United will not be as unknown next season
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Sheffield United will go down next season.
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If you include loan players who returned to their parent clubs, players sold, players whose contracts expired in June, players who were released from their contracts in the summer, I think you'll find that we 'lost circa 25 players last summer!!
Staggering figure, isn't it?
That's why the 'Fulham' bollocks just doesn't stick -we just replaced about half the players who had left, just to give Deano some sort of a squad to work with.
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Sheffield United have built steadily over a period of three or four years going up from League One to the Championship and then from Championship to Premier League. Their win percentage over that period must be a big boost to confidence as well as the continuity of manager, coaching staff and playing staff. I would be interested to know how many different players have made a first team appearance for Sheffield United in the last four years compared to how many different players have made a first team appearance for Villa in the same period.
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They need to have a good look at the structure they've put in place at the end of this season, whatever division we're playing in. It just hasn't worked, and if it doesn't change next season, almost certainly won't work again.
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They need to have a good look at the structure they've put in place at the end of this season, whatever division we're playing in. It just hasn't worked, and if it doesn't change next season, almost certainly won't work again.
Completely agree.
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We could look at the bits that have worked, keep them, alter the ones that haven't and take it from there. Or we could go back to the idea of starting everything again from scratch. That's served us well over the past twenty years.
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They need to have a good look at the structure they've put in place at the end of this season, whatever division we're playing in. It just hasn't worked, and if it doesn't change next season, almost certainly won't work again.
If we stay up, it has worked.
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The mistakes made for me are as follows:
1. Failure to bring in PL quality/experience in the summer.
2. Refusal to bring in loan players in the Summer, thus freeing up funds to purchase better "permanents".
This is of course with the benefit of hindsight but there are glaring similarities with the 2015-2016 relegation season. We bought some good players then but none had PL experience. Most have gone on to better things.
It is noteworthy that now, out of desperation, we have done a U-turn.
Regarding the loanees, there are 2 types of player: The young up and coming striker (Abraham) or the experienced player who is not getting a game at his parent club (Drinkwater). Whilst it is bold to claim that we are not going to enhance other teams players, we could still have considered a couple of older loanees given the amount of squad places required to be filled in one window. The signing of Mooy on loan by Brighton from Huddersfield was a masterstroke and freed up money for them to buy Maupay and Webster.
If and it's a big if, we refused to pay for our number one targets such as Webster, Philips and Benrahma and opted for cheaper versions in Engles, Nakamba & Trez then this was also a mistake.
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They need to have a good look at the structure they've put in place at the end of this season, whatever division we're playing in. It just hasn't worked, and if it doesn't change next season, almost certainly won't work again.
If we stay up, it has worked.
That's simplsitic to say the least. The plan certainly wasn't to be marginally less crap than three other teams, and I'm sure it certainly wasn't to be playing games in January with no striker.
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They need to have a good look at the structure they've put in place at the end of this season, whatever division we're playing in. It just hasn't worked, and if it doesn't change next season, almost certainly won't work again.
If we stay up, it has worked.
That's simplsitic to say the least. The plan certainly wasn't to be marginally less crap than three other teams, and I'm sure it certainly wasn't to be playing games in January with no striker.
To say 'it just hasn't worked' is too simplistic as well. As Dave points out, you look at the good and bad and you try and improve.
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The mistakes made for me are as follows:
1. Failure to bring in PL quality/experience in the summer.
2. Refusal to bring in loan players in the Summer, thus freeing up funds to purchase better "permanents".
This is of course with the benefit of hindsight but there are glaring similarities with the 2015-2016 relegation season. We bought some good players then but none had PL experience. Most have gone on to better things.
It is noteworthy that now, out of desperation, we have done a U-turn.
Regarding the loanees, there are 2 types of player: The young up and coming striker (Abraham) or the experienced player who is not getting a game at his parent club (Drinkwater). Whilst it is bold to claim that we are not going to enhance other teams players, we could still have considered a couple of older loanees given the amount of squad places required to be filled in one window. The signing of Mooy on loan by Brighton from Huddersfield was a masterstroke and freed up money for them to buy Maupay and Webster.
If and it's a big if, we refused to pay for our number one targets such as Webster, Philips and Benrahma and opted for cheaper versions in Engles, Nakamba & Trez then this was also a mistake.
Regarding the first mistake, it obviously was a bit of a gamble, but it was also somewhat of a necessity given that we have so many squad places to fill. Players with PL experience/quality cost big money and we were in a situation where we simply had to spread ours around the squad. The hope was obviously that the players would develop/improve as the season goes on and that unfortunately hasn’t happened to the level that everyone was hoping.
With the loan signings issue, first off they do also cost money. Many consist of a loan fee and then you are usually required to pay a decent portion or all of a players wages - so while it does technically leave you with some additional ‘transfer fee’ money, it doesn’t exactly free up loads of funds. Secondly, as you state, the reason for players being available for loan mean that they are not always of the highest quality. I think Mooy is about the only example of a successful loan this season. Even the players that wouldn’t have even come to use (Lo Celso/Ceballos etc) haven’t exactly been great.
I’m sure they could have perhaps utilised the loan market better in the summer, but I can understand why they we perhaps reluctant to given it contributed to the state we where in and the end of last season and the increase in the price of Mings.
Regarding Webster/Phillips/Benrahma, even on the presumption that they were our number one targets, it clearly wasn’t the case that we just decided to buy ‘cheaper versions’. More that we had so much of a squad to acquire that paying the required £70m or so for them would have left us even thinner in terms of numbers. Those three signings would almost certainly have meant no Engles, Konsa, Nakamba, Luiz, El Ghazi and Trezeguet which would have left us very short.
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A couple of months ago we were saying we'd done well buying Nakamba instead of Phillips and how good Engels was looking. In March we could easily be saying the same.
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A couple of months ago we were saying we'd done well buying Nakamba instead of Phillips and how good Engels was looking. In March we could easily be saying the same.
Nakamba is badly missing the energy next to him that is SJM
Engels - im not sure why he suddenly went to pieces unless is was losing Mings by his side.
As for Phillips - I did not see then what folk raved about and watching him a few times this season I have not still not seen how they justified a £30mil price tag - or even a £10m one to be honest. I think Nakamba in the right mix in Midfield will be fine going forward
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With the amount of money you have to spend to get a good player from another Premier League club we had to look abroad for value to bring in the amount of players we needed. Although maybe we could and should have brought in one or two more domestic signings.
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Villa spent £132million in fees on 13 new players, of which only three had previously played in the Premier League.
But when asked if that policy was something of a risk, Smith said there was very little choice.
He said: “It was not a risk because it is what we had to do. People can talk about risk because we brought in a number of players but we had to, otherwise we wouldn’t have had a squad.
“We would have had to pay £30m-plus for Premier League experience and it is a vicious circle.
“If you want to go and get Premier League experience as a newly-promoted team, with a short period in which to get these players in which we had after winning the play-offs, you just get priced out of the game.
“We did what we had to do. We knew we were signing a lot of players with potential. There was no other way to do it.”
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Gary Cahill was on a free transfer.
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Gary Cahill was on a free transfer.
I was all for signing him on a one or two year deal but you can understand why the club didn't go for someone who was going to turn 34 during the season.
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We might not have got him anyway, he could well be settled in London.
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Gary Cahill was on a free transfer.
I was all for signing him on a one or two year deal but you can understand why the club didn't go for someone who was going to turn 34 during the season.
On £70k per week and a massive signing on fee.
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I'm always a bit suspicious when someone says 'the way we chose to do it was the only way it could be done'.
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I’d like to be the first to say have they actually got a fucking clue what they’re doing?
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I’d like to be the first to say have they actually got a fucking clue what they’re doing?
This season has been an embarrassment. We have endured so much bullshit- not loaning players; not buying experienced players; a new contract for a manager that had been under performing.
This season is one of our worst in over 30 years.
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Somewhere else there's been a hint that Wes Edens was a big advocate of our strategy in transfer market last summer with his years in US sport and generally their stats based systems to make signings.
Dean Smith and Suso will get the blame being more visual but ultimately they're only implementing the strategy the owners want.
If last summer Wes and Nas had decided the better way of staying up was to have more short term outlook and sign 3-4 experienced players over 30 like Cahill then I'm sure Suso would've located targets to fit that range.
They are only implementing the vision at the top.
Hopefully this season has been a wake up call. I realise we'd be properly in the s*** if they hadn't come in but ultimately we've seen before just throwing endless money at signings dosen't make great owners.
You need to be more pragmatic in decisions sometimes and not just have one rigid plan as things can always go wrong in stages and key players can also leave and we'll see that in next few months.
Next few months I think we'll see if this board is as good as we think it is as we'll more than likely have the setback of instant relegation and also losing an iconic player and really the face of our club.
It's not impossible to become stronger from that though. All the clubs we want to get up and compete with one day all have to sell their key players every few years.