Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Match Threads & Player Ratings => Topic started by: cdbearsfan on September 22, 2019, 06:25:28 PM
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******.
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Fucking shite. Wise up Smith, or fuck off.
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A very steep learning curve for Smith.
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Not good enough from Smith.
We are starting to smell like relegation, which is a hard smell to shift.
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Arsenal had 10 men and won the second half 3-1.
Piss poor from Dean.
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We bottled that totally and utterly. Piss poor.
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Fuming at that same after 60mins defend defend defend if winning.....even against 10 men!
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Love the bloke but thats all on Smith, in game management was horrendous. We threw that one away big time.
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Smith just showed today he is out of his depth I'm afraid.
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I thought we were playing well and then suddenly sat deep and folded, gutted.
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Dean Smith is the reason why we got 0 points from this game. Nobody else is at fault except his delusional management tactics.
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Taylor can fuck off as well
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A very steep learning curve for Smith.
It's only a learning curve if he's learning, otherwise it's a death dive.
So far it doesn't look like he's learning much to me.
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It went tits up when Trez came off. Lost shape, no we went to pieces.
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We did not believe we would win. That was all about mentality.
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This is a very harsh league and it doesn't offer third chances. Dean is now on his second, and HAS to wise up. The naivety of his decisions is blowing my mind at the minute.
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We're shit, we're going down.
Everyone is garbage.
Smith out.
Mings and Engels gifted two goals so they can fuck off too.
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Pathetic effort. If Dean doesn’t sort our tactics we’re going to go down. He is completely responsible for today.
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Tough one to take that is. We carry on like this smith ain’t lasting the season. Fucking gutted
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Pathetic, absolutely pathetic performance. Two games running we look like a club of alsorans.
Dean better get it in fucking gear or gtfo.
Idiots.
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Really over the top reactions.
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Team needs to get to grips to this league very quickly - inability to hold the ball under little pressure is killing us.
Even when 2-1 up like Monday there was too many hurried passes or attempts at killer balls which kept returning the ball to Arsenal.
All in having been in a position with 4 points from the last 2 games when the opposition has gone down to 10 men and finish with 1 is not good enough.
Next 2 games are huge now.
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Not good enough from Smith.
We are starting to smell like relegation, which is a hard smell to shift.
Agree on both points. For all the effort I'm struggling to see the plan other than out-battle the opposition.
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1 man up, and we looked second best for the second half. That's poor game management, and it's entirely on Smith.
We're not staying up playing like this. Two games in a fucking row.
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Dreadful, dreadful, dreadful. Smith needs to wise up or go. That was shocking. Subs should have been made at least 20 minutes earlier.
If this goes on much longer Smith will be sacked, and that may be the best option for us. We need better management and players.
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That game has worrying similarities to the Leicester game under Sherwood.
Bringing Elmo on was the problem. Should've been Davis and Hourihane on for Trez and McGinn so we had the option of going long and having 2 big guys to hold it up.
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Dean got the credit, now he deserves the criticism. We went about the 2nd half all wrong and that must be placed at his door - he needed to be bold and go for the kill but instead, we meekly rolled over. Unless he gets his act together, relegation is a certainty
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First time this season but you can't help but think the unthinkable, we look like relegation fodder, slow painful decision making, failure to respond quickly to situations and a failure in the summer to get in Premiership experience to see out games like this.
Sad result.
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Fuming today. This is tough league this year and there is little evidence to suggest three teams will finish below us so far. It just all feels so familiar, we got a huge break today but completely blew it. We have a lot of decent footballers so why was there suddenly huge gaps between everybody so that we couldn't keep the ball. If we want to be at this level, then that performance in the last 20 minutes is just not acceptable.
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Fucking fuming at that. We've played so well for so long but have been caught out for being blatantly fucking naive.
Those subs needed making so much earlier, we were fucking wide open against ten men. Absolutely criminal to get nothing from that. Massive missed chance for points and now we're right up against it.
We need to wise up fast.
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Well trying to be level headed about this, there is no doubt we are a far better team than the one that went down three years ago. We clearly have quality but we are not yet quite a team and Dean is still learning but boy do we need a couple of back to back wins to lift our confidence
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I think the only Villa fan that did not work out that we needed to change was Smith.
He was frozen to the spot as we were being over run by 10 men, if he could not see what every one else could see then he is in the wrong job.
He just threw away 3 points, pathetic.
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I’m tired of watching players making mistakes that get immediately punished, time after time after time.
It’s not even just about this team, it’s a mentality that Aston Villa itself needs to get out of.
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I don’t want to throw the baby out with the bath water and overreact to that, but that was fucking shit.
A distinct lack of quality and leadership all over the pitch and from off it.
Crap individual decisions and what looks like a real problem with fitness.
Like all of you, I am so pissed off after that.
They let us down today.
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We don't seem fit enough to last the 90+ mins, even against 10 men. Smith must see that & then bring on fresh legs but somehow doesn't make the changes.
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Exhausted. In a completely negative way.
They were there for the taking. I don't understand this bringing on of Elmohamady on the wing. It doesn't hurt to change the formation, solidify the midfield, etc etc.
Thank fuck today is a holiday and I don't have to go to work.
******.
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
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Really over the top reactions.
How do you expect people to react?
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Didn't expect anything from that before the game, but we should have come away with at least a point. Dreadful game management from Smith - everyone could see we were getting deeper and deeper and he did fuck all about it. He seems to have one, and only one, formation; doesn't change it to suit the circumstances; and makes substitutions too late. Yes, Arsenal are a good side, but how come we were the ones blowing out of our arses against 10 men for an hour? I'm now officially starting to get worried
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Had years of this but it still sickens me. Only Villa can fold so consistently. 6 games is enough to judge, plenty of effort but we aren’t good enough, sorry but we do look like Fulham
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We could barely get the ball and we’re supposed to be an “attacking” team.
We’re cooked.
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It's two games in a row where we've completely lost our shape and composure in the last 20-25 minutes against 10 men. Totally unacceptable from Smith. We're bottom three and we deserve to be. He won't be here by November if he carries on like this, and he won't deserve to be.
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Schoolboy football.
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Completely unacceptable last 30 minutes. Arsenal looked like they were playing with 12 men and we had 8. What the fuck is going on in training (or not going on) for us to be so fucking woefully out of shape?
Have to agree with the blame being put towards Smith. What the fuck is bringing Elmohamedy on about? What the fuck is not freshening the midfield fucking about? What the fuck is bringing on a midfielder for an attacking player once we are fucking behind about?
There does have to be individual blame for the players again though. Mings and Engels were excellent in the first half, but then both massively at fault for the 1st two goals with braindead errors. Engels gave the ball away needlessly and then made a tackle he didn't need to giving away the penalty. Mings fucking trying to head the ball to Taylor in his own box was pathetic for their 2nd.
Think we are going down unless things change drastically.
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I thought the idea with 10 men was to pass it around and make them run thereby tiring them out. How come the opposite happened. Arse surrendered at Watford last week in the second half but ran the show today
I love SJM but he looked knackered after an hour. He either isnt fit enough, which is unlikely, or he needs to conserve his energy much better. Basic stuff really
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It's not the end of the world to lose at Arsenal, but that's not the worrying thing, the worrying thing is that we don't really look like we're going to win many matches at all.
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Really over the top reactions.
How do you expect people to react?
Seriously.
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Again we look worse when we have an extra man. That fucking about with short passes in our own box was at the heart of Mings' assist for Chambers equaliser and really disappointing to concede from that free-kick where we let Arsenal bully our wall.
Naive stuff that doesn't bode well.
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Well what more can I say, we all saw it coming except the team in the dugout.
Can’t really fault the players today, played well and plenty of effort. We are the new boys and we need to learn fast. Spurs away, West Ham at home and now this is where Smith really needs to look at his approach to match management.
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Worst i have felt after a defeat for a long long time.
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If we'd got the win today, we would have had a points haul that you would have taken after this first 6 games. A win here and you would have given us a chance in 90% of our remaining games. But that's the difference isn't it, instead we've come away with fuck all again and you now look at the fixture list and think that there is absolutely no way we're going to get another 34+ points this season. Win 9 games and draw 7? No fucking chance.
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A goal up, a man up and they had Monty Don at the back.
A game we should've won.
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
How about one where people breathe before posting shite.
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The frustrating thing is in large spells of games this season we have looked quite decent and nowhere near out of our depth. And then we fall apart. As well as poor game management- it looks like a fitness issue to me.
I don’t think we are getting relegated though. Mid table.
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
How about one where people breathe before posting shite.
Ooh look dad, everyone is driving down the motorway the wrong way.
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
How about one where people breathe before posting shite.
Says the guy who just posted
We're shit, we're going down.
Everyone is garbage.
Smith out.
Mings and Engels gifted two goals so they can fuck off too.
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Post play-off final we heard how the owners had a plan for the next season, who to release and targets to bring in etc. I am sure they will have a plan if we don’t wise up quickly for the manager. It’s too early but, if we don’t start picking up points then in next batch of matches....
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Really over the top reactions.
How do you expect people to react?
To not act like everything and everyone connected with the team are shite and we are relegation fodder because we've lost an away game with 90% of the season left and with us being competitive in every single game we've been in so far. Better teams than us will lose at Arsenal and it's not the first time and won't be the last time that 10 men win a game at home. It's a bad result but all the negativity that flows from a defeat is magnified and does nothing but harm with the over the top nature of responses.
Fuck off Smith this, the defence is shit that. It's no good. Smith has done a good job, the team aren't a mess, the defence has been by and large solid and if we all stick together there are much better days ahead. Let's not get carried away with the emotion of losing.
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
How about one where people breathe before posting shite.
Says the guy who just posted
We're shit, we're going down.
Everyone is garbage.
Smith out.
Mings and Engels gifted two goals so they can fuck off too.
I think he was being ironic.
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It's not the end of the world to lose at Arsenal, but that's not the worrying thing, the worrying thing is that we don't really look like we're going to win many matches at all.
Everything went our way today. Our best players all played well, our 1 in 3 striker scored, good reffing and protection for grealish, Arsenal down to 10 men and losing their heads.
And we still fucked it up, mainly thanks to smith.
I don’t think we get to moan about the rub of the green after that.
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Another week of mistakes we shouldn't be making. 'You get punished for those in this league.' Next week we'll give away a stupid goal, penalty (thus goal) or someone will get sent off. FS. Why are footballers stupid?
Why is it also that we're appalling playing against 10 men? Just almost always historically struggle like no other. It's been decades since I saw the opposition get a sending off and thought 'oh goody, we've got an advantage here.' It's a fucking death knell.
We're a lot better than 2015 but the league is also better. Shape up ffs. Smith's making some headscratching decisions too. I'm pleased big Wes got on the score sheet, because ultimately, if we're gonna stay up he's got to hit double figures.
I grant you we've played a top 4 side and should probably expect to get beaten on their patch but being okay and losing just means you go down. That's a chance blown and puts pressure on the games we should be expecting results in. Every bottom 12 team that stays up this year is going to do so by pulling off 1-2 unexpected results.
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Really over the top reactions.
How do you expect people to react?
To not act like everything and everyone connected with the team are shite and we are relegation fodder because we've lost an away game with 90% of the season left and with us being competitive in every single game we've been in so far. Better teams than us will lose at Arsenal and it's not the first time and won't be the last time that 10 men win a game at home. It's a bad result but all the negativity that flows from a defeat is magnified and does nothing but harm with the over the top nature of responses.
Fuck off Smith this, the defence is shit that. It's no good. Smith has done a good job, the team aren't a mess, the defence has been by and large solid and if we all stick together there are much better days ahead. Let's not get carried away with the emotion of losing.
Was your TV plugged in?
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
How about one where people breathe before posting shite.
I don't think it's particularly unreasonable to expect not to be absolutely battered playing with an extra man. Today's debacle isn't sufficient, in itself, to provoke panic. As part of a trend, it is very worrying though. We seem to have learned nothing from previous mistakes.
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Not too bad a score at the Emirates.
Unless Smith ascends a sharp learning curve I suspect this may be the pattern for the season - plucky also rans. At least we’ll go down with some sense of dignity.
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Really over the top reactions.
How do you expect people to react?
To not act like everything and everyone connected with the team are shite and we are relegation fodder because we've lost an away game with 90% of the season left and with us being competitive in every single game we've been in so far. Better teams than us will lose at Arsenal and it's not the first time and won't be the last time that 10 men win a game at home. It's a bad result but all the negativity that flows from a defeat is magnified and does nothing but harm with the over the top nature of responses.
Fuck off Smith this, the defence is shit that. It's no good. Smith has done a good job, the team aren't a mess, the defence has been by and large solid and if we all stick together there are much better days ahead. Let's not get carried away with the emotion of losing.
I would usually agree with that but we seem to be making the same naive mistakes game after game. To play like we have against 10 men in the last 2 games was criminal.
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
and against a shocking and often bottling team such as Arsenal
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
How about one where people breathe before posting shite.
Ooh look dad, everyone is driving down the motorway the wrong way.
Yes, you're right. Panic Mr Mainwaring.
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To lose that was criminal, every so often a defeat really stings and here is the first one this season (Spurs and Bournemouth weren't too bad for different reasons).
Yes Arsenal away is a bonus game in the bigger picture but way it panned out we shouldn't have lost that ffs.
Worse thing for me is we had the warning from 70th minute with loads of Arsenal corners and chances they just missed.
We made two changes 15 minutes later kicking off after conceding the third!
If he dosen't feel he has enough options on the bench to make changes to hang onto a 2-1 away from home with just fifteen minutes left well to me it dosen't say much about our 150m spend.
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I think we just need to calm down. As I put in the match thread this isn’t a shock, we’ve lost these sort of games for years. We’re 4 points off 6th having played spurs & arsenal away and Everton & West Ham at home. He is clearly a good manager who is implementing a system which our club can be identified by. He will have wanted a striker and another winger in the summer I am sure but it is very difficult to just sign fourteen players in one window. He has done things that have frustrates me, the decision to spend £12 million on konsa (probably a season early than he is ready) instead of bringing in a striker I will never understand. But he has earned the right to have the season and as long as we finish above 17th I for one will be happy. This Villa team more than any needs our support. I think we will be better after Burnley and Norwich points wise.
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An Arsenal team that was just run ragged by W8tford.
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
How about one where people breathe before posting shite.
It’s not shite though. Perfectly reasonable observations. It’s also a pattern of similar errors that Smith needs to address.
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Another week of mistakes we shouldn't be making. 'You get punished for those in this league.' Next week we'll give away a stupid goal, penalty (thus goal) or someone will get sent off. FS. Why are footballers stupid?
Why is it also that we're appalling playing against 10 men? Just almost always historically struggle like no other. It's been decades since I saw the opposition get a sending off and thought 'oh goody, we've got an advantage here.' It's a fucking death knell.
We're a lot better than 2015 but the league is also better. Shape up ffs. Smith's making some headscratching decisions too. I'm pleased big Wes got on the score sheet, because ultimately, if we're gonna stay up he's got to hit double figures.
I grant you we've played a top 4 side and should probably expect to get beaten on their patch but being okay and losing just means you go down. That's a chance blown and puts pressure on the games we should be expecting results in. Every bottom 12 team that stays up this year is going to do so by pulling off 1-2 unexpected results.
They arent a top 4 side and had 10 men. That gives us a massive advantage
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I don’t think we’re fucked. I think there is some good in there too, it’s just naive mistakes and game management that’s costing us.
We couldn’t play in the championship when we had 10 men behind the ball, so why try it in the Premier League??? Teams like Arsenal punish tactics like that.
Why did we not bring Hourihane on when Trezeguet went off? Trezeguet worked himself into the ground today, and we replaced his energy with a championship standard defender. Such poor decision making.
I’m actually furious though. Not felt this angry after a game in a long long time.
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
How about one where people breathe before posting shite.
Try giving it a go and see if it works for you.
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I know I bored everyone shitless with this in pre-season but the folly of going into the Premier League with a manager and squad who had precious little - and in some cases zero - experience of it is becoming evident.
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
How about one where people breathe before posting shite.
It’s not shite though. Perfectly reasonable observations. It’s also a pattern of similar errors that Smith needs to address.
Saying Smith isn't up to it, and that we're relegation fodder is.
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Any link to our 2nd goal?
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I think we just need to calm down. As I put in the match thread this isn’t a shock, we’ve lost these sort of games for years. We’re 4 points off 6th having played spurs & arsenal away and Everton & West Ham at home.
Wow.
That's marvellous spin.
Firstly, we're not four points off 6th, we're 4 points off 12th, and two places off the bottom.
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I love SJM but he looked knackered after an hour. He either isnt fit enough, which is unlikely, or he needs to conserve his energy much better.
It's not the first time he's had a brilliant first half and then you forget he's playing in the second. He looks completely and utterly knackered which is hardly surprising given the amount of running he does. Unfortunately Dean doesn't see it or if he does, refuses to take him off as he's out main goal threat. That's another subject that seriously needs urgent attention.
The only positive from today is Villa didn't ruin all my weekend. I'd have hated to have seen that game on a Friday night. Small blessings.
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The problem is that we look like we're giving it all we've got (unlike the last relegation) and we're still in the relegation zone. It's commendable but also depressing. We need to do something in the next three because the three after that are very tough. If we're on, say, 8 points after 12 games we're going to look fucked.
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We're shit, we're going down.
Everyone is garbage.
Smith out.
Mings and Engels gifted two goals so they can fuck off too.
Drummond: stamping out contrary opinion since 1874 probably.
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That felt worryingly like the Leicester 15/16 game. Played well, things appeared to be clicking but pissed it away, mainly through tactical ineptitude.
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I don’t think the defense is shit or the midfield or the squad.
But today suggested that our manager has no idea how to win from a winning position against 10 men.
We were running out of steam because we were crying out for fresh legs and to plug the midfield.
It was obvious they were going to commit to attack and he stood and watched them from the dug out tear us apart.
Inexplicable.
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Another week of mistakes we shouldn't be making. 'You get punished for those in this league.' Next week we'll give away a stupid goal, penalty (thus goal) or someone will get sent off. FS. Why are footballers stupid?
Why is it also that we're appalling playing against 10 men? Just almost always historically struggle like no other. It's been decades since I saw the opposition get a sending off and thought 'oh goody, we've got an advantage here.' It's a fucking death knell.
We're a lot better than 2015 but the league is also better. Shape up ffs. Smith's making some headscratching decisions too. I'm pleased big Wes got on the score sheet, because ultimately, if we're gonna stay up he's got to hit double figures.
I grant you we've played a top 4 side and should probably expect to get beaten on their patch but being okay and losing just means you go down. That's a chance blown and puts pressure on the games we should be expecting results in. Every bottom 12 team that stays up this year is going to do so by pulling off 1-2 unexpected results.
They arent a top 4 side and had 10 men. That gives us a massive advantage
It should give us an advantage. Never bloody does. That's not new with Smith mind you. I can't remember the last manager we had who was good against 10 men.
He got it wrong today though and it's been slightly alarming that he's begining to make Bruce-esque tactical decisions.
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We need to learn and quick. In isolation, it's not the end of the world, but Palace, West Ham, Arsenal should have seen us have 7 points with better in-game management, but we only have 1 to show for it.
I'm not going to judge until 10 games, but we'll need at least 10 points on the board by then otherwise we are in a proper battle.
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I know I bored everyone shitless with this in pre-season but the folly of going into the Premier League with a manager and squad who had precious little - and in some cases zero - experience of it is becoming evident.
Absolutely, Dean Smith has zero experience of the Premiership, so we can live with that in the short term, common sense would say you get over that by bringing in players that are battle hardened Premiership campaigners.
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I don't want to be ungrateful after everything he's done for us but Smith really is starting to concern me. The managers of the two other promoted clubs aren't looking out of their depth. They've risen well to the challenge. Smith? Not so much.
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Really over the top reactions.
How do you expect people to react?
To not act like everything and everyone connected with the team are shite and we are relegation fodder because we've lost an away game with 90% of the season left and with us being competitive in every single game we've been in so far. Better teams than us will lose at Arsenal and it's not the first time and won't be the last time that 10 men win a game at home. It's a bad result but all the negativity that flows from a defeat is magnified and does nothing but harm with the over the top nature of responses.
Fuck off Smith this, the defence is shit that. It's no good. Smith has done a good job, the team aren't a mess, the defence has been by and large solid and if we all stick together there are much better days ahead. Let's not get carried away with the emotion of losing.
They had 10 men, and the last half an hour we couldn't get out of our own half. Yes teams win with 10 men occasionally, but rarely do they do it completely dominating the team with the numerical advantage. It was an unacceptable effort in the 2nd half. From both players and a manager who really fucked up today.
Lets not forget we were also atrocious when West Ham went down to 10 men on Monday too.
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Insert "this is fine" fire cartoon meme for Drummond.
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The difference is today the red card did give us an advantage. It had a bad effect on them for most the game and we got in behind them repeatedly and failed to make the most of it.
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So angry that I could easily shit a live pit-bull terrier! FFS Smith. its not rocket surgery! That was a capitulation of fucking Sherwoodian proportions! >:(
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
and against a shocking and often bottling team such as Arsenal
Arsenal are shocking? Fucking hell, you're in for a long hard season then. They will finish top 6. We won't. There's a gulf to make up from getting promoted. It's the start of the season. We've lost narrowly this season, there is enough ability all round for the team to improve and start turning around a poor start. Panic and we will shoot ourselves in the foot. It will be a tough season and at times we won't look coherent.
Smith isn't shit. We've spent months waxing lyrical about him.
Engels and Mings aren't shit.
Grealish isn't all tippy tappy and nothing to show for it, we've spoken about him being able to play for the national team.
The list goes on, every mistake doesn't need to be poured over and over and reacted upon because we're all pissed off that we've fucked up an opportunity.
If we'd have won or even drawn, with the same performance, the reactions would be 180 degree different. I'm not saying I'm delighted about how we are playing but we are definitely not terrible as is being made out and the manager isn't a fool as is being made out. And please let's not start the ''what do they do in training'', '' we aren't fit enough'' rubbish. It get's rolled out by every team whenever they lose.
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Getting knackered and sitting deeper and deeper has nothing to do with PL experience though, none of us have managed in the PL but we could see what was happening and that changes were needed. We didn't make those changes until after their 3rd.
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I love SJM but he looked knackered after an hour. He either isnt fit enough, which is unlikely, or he needs to conserve his energy much better.
It's not the first time he's had a brilliant first half and then you forget he's playing in the second. He looks completely and utterly knackered which is hardly surprising given the amount of running he does. Unfortunately Dean doesn't see it or if he does, refuses to take him off as he's out main goal threat. That's another subject that seriously needs urgent attention.
The only positive from today is Villa didn't ruin all my weekend. I'd have hated to have seen that game on a Friday night. Small blessings.
In fairness to SJM, if we kept the ball better and there was much more cohesion between midfield and attack, he'd be chasing less. That's another aspect needing major attention, and that's our ball retention. Still, we've only been saying that for 20 bloody years...:(
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Aston Villa keep beating Aston Villa.
One of those fans surveys in pre season tipped Dean as the first manager to lose his job. I cringed at the thought but he looks a bit lost at the moment. He has a good squad but doesn't appear to know what to do during games.
Arsenal are fucking bottle job shit houses but they beat us with one less player. Damning for everyone involved....
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I think we just need to calm down. As I put in the match thread this isn’t a shock, we’ve lost these sort of games for years. We’re 4 points off 6th having played spurs & arsenal away and Everton & West Ham at home.
Wow.
That's marvellous spin.
Firstly, we're not four points off 6th, we're 4 points off 12th, and two places off the bottom.
4 points off twelve then. Does it matter? We aren’t exactly cut a drift are we?
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Both our goals came from our best two midfielders running into their box and causing mayhem. This is were they should be playing, not on the edge of our box
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I just can not understand how he watched them tear through us without doing something about it.
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
and against a shocking and often bottling team such as Arsenal
If we'd have won or even drawn, with the same performance, the reactions would be 180 degree different.
A draw, against a team down to 10 men for an hour, who were also behind would still have been a very poor result.
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I think we just need to calm down. As I put in the match thread this isn’t a shock, we’ve lost these sort of games for years. We’re 4 points off 6th having played spurs & arsenal away and Everton & West Ham at home.
Wow.
That's marvellous spin.
Firstly, we're not four points off 6th, we're 4 points off 12th, and two places off the bottom.
4 points off twelve then. Does it matter? We aren’t exactly cut a drift are we?
No we're not, but we're also not hovering around the top six, either.
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That felt worryingly like the Leicester 15/16 game. Played well, things appeared to be clicking but pissed it away, mainly through tactical ineptitude.
Absolutely nothing like Sherwood, a manager with no pedigree, who had proven nothing at the club, who was a proven bullshitter, who helped harness division in the dressing room, throwing on an extra attacking player when we were at Leicester and falling apart.
This is the over the top crap that I am talking about.
Comparing Tim Sherwood to Dean Smith?
Here's a clue, one of them will never manage again. Take a guess who it is and for why.
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Getting knackered and sitting deeper and deeper has nothing to do with PL experience though, none of us have managed in the PL but we could see what was happening and that changes were needed. We didn't make those changes until after their 3rd.
And that is exactly it. It’s really fucking obvious.
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We need to stop thinking like Paul Lambert did and take each game on its merits and what actually happened in it.
Lambert would big up the opposition so much, we ended up fearing lower league sides in the cup.
Yes, West Ham are established, yes, Arsenal are a top six side. But the way the two games developed, we should be rightly annoyed at coming away with one point.
Under normal circumstances maybe one point would be expected , but both games gave us a massive opportunity to win and, especially today, we've really messed up.
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Getting knackered and sitting deeper and deeper has nothing to do with PL experience though, none of us have managed in the PL but we could see what was happening and that changes were needed. We didn't make those changes until after their 3rd.
I take your point but the game management was shocking and that definitely comes through experience.
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Well, the lack of experience from the manager and players seems to be showing.
To be honest, I had this game as a defeat - we lost - so in that respect I think probably it's a bit soon to be calling the season a total disaster. We've not played any "must win" games yet. The next 3 (Burnley, Norwich, Brighton) - need an absolute minimum of 5 points, and less than 7 would still be a bit worrying. I'd be worried if we're not still in the league cup too - we can't afford defeats against Brighton etc if we're dropping them in the manner we have today.
Still have full faith in Dean, but it's going to be tested over the next few weeks. He's not left himself much margin for error.
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Both our goals came from our best two midfielders running into their box and causing mayhem. This is were they should be playing, not on the edge of our box
Agree and he is sticking to the 4 3 3 regardless of circumstances with our best 2 players having to do too much.
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I just can not understand how he watched them tear through us without doing something about it.
A bit of Nero going on. Let’s hope he learns.
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I know I bored everyone shitless with this in pre-season but the folly of going into the Premier League with a manager and squad who had precious little - and in some cases zero - experience of it is becoming evident.
Absolutely, Dean Smith has zero experience of the Premiership, so we can live with that in the short term, common sense would say you get over that by bringing in players that are battle hardened Premiership campaigners.
Tell that to Sheff Utd.
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I think we just need to calm down. As I put in the match thread this isn’t a shock, we’ve lost these sort of games for years. We’re 4 points off 6th having played spurs & arsenal away and Everton & West Ham at home.
Wow.
That's marvellous spin.
Firstly, we're not four points off 6th, we're 4 points off 12th, and two places off the bottom.
4 points off twelve then. Does it matter? We aren’t exactly cut a drift are we?
No we're not, but we're also not hovering around the top six, either.
Are we not? Bloody hell, we should be sacking him then.
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We're shit, we're going down.
Everyone is garbage.
Smith out.
Mings and Engels gifted two goals so they can fuck off too.
Drummond: stamping out contrary opinion since 1874 probably.
Just thought I'd get it out there and see if it made me feel better. I assumed it worked for others.
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That felt worryingly like the Leicester 15/16 game. Played well, things appeared to be clicking but pissed it away, mainly through tactical ineptitude.
Absolutely nothing like Sherwood, a manager with no pedigree, who had proven nothing at the club, who was a proven bullshitter, who helped harness division in the dressing room, throwing on an extra attacking player when we were at Leicester and falling apart.
This is the over the top crap that I am talking about.
Comparing Tim Sherwood to Dean Smith?
Here's a clue, one of them will never manage again. Take a guess who it is and for why.
Why don’t you just debate the point without taking shrill, chippy little pot shots? Show me where I compared Smith unfavourably with Sherwood in terms of their pedigree or moral fibre.
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Getting knackered and sitting deeper and deeper has nothing to do with PL experience though, none of us have managed in the PL but we could see what was happening and that changes were needed. We didn't make those changes until after their 3rd.
I take your point but the game management was shocking and that definitely comes through experience.
He's not inexperienced though is he. OK it's his first Premier League season, but "replace a tired player" is hardly something you'd need to be Guardiola to know.
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
and against a shocking and often bottling team such as Arsenal
If we'd have won or even drawn, with the same performance, the reactions would be 180 degree different.
A draw, against a team down to 10 men for an hour, who were also behind would still have been a very poor result.
Not trying to be over picky, but wasn't he sen't off on the stroke of half time?I think we just need to calm down. As I put in the match thread this isn’t a shock, we’ve lost these sort of games for years. We’re 4 points off 6th having played spurs & arsenal away and Everton & West Ham at home.
Wow.
That's marvellous spin.
Firstly, we're not four points off 6th, we're 4 points off 12th, and two places off the bottom.
4 points off twelve then. Does it matter? We aren’t exactly cut a drift are we?
No we're not, but we're also not hovering around the top six, either.
Come on, no one in their right mind expected the club that got in to the play offs after a late season run to be around the top 6 did they? We need to consolidate and stay in the division this season. By any means necessary and it won't be done by questioning everything about the team and management when we lose tight games. There's a time to do that and it isn't after 6 games when you are fighting hard for everything.
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I don't want to be ungrateful after everything he's done for us but Smith really is starting to concern me. The managers of the two other promoted clubs aren't looking out of their depth. They've risen well to the challenge. Smith? Not so much.
He's been in charge of us for less than a year.
He's had 6 games at this level.
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Saturday is massive now. Win that and we're at a point per game and we're back on par. Lose that and we're on a downer with a particularly difficult looking period coming up.
Front three are shite and he should have put Davis on to hold it before they got the goal.
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
and against a shocking and often bottling team such as Arsenal
If we'd have won or even drawn, with the same performance, the reactions would be 180 degree different.
A draw, against a team down to 10 men for an hour, who were also behind would still have been a very poor result.
Not trying to be over picky, but wasn't he sen't off on the stroke of half time?I think we just need to calm down. As I put in the match thread this isn’t a shock, we’ve lost these sort of games for years. We’re 4 points off 6th having played spurs & arsenal away and Everton & West Ham at home.
Wow.
That's marvellous spin.
Firstly, we're not four points off 6th, we're 4 points off 12th, and two places off the bottom.
4 points off twelve then. Does it matter? We aren’t exactly cut a drift are we?
No we're not, but we're also not hovering around the top six, either.
Come on, no one in their right mind expected the club that got in to the play offs after a late season run to be around the top 6 did they? We need to consolidate and stay in the division this season. By any means necessary and it won't be done by questioning everything about the team and management when we lose tight games. There's a time to do that and it isn't after 6 games when you are fighting hard for everything.
No, we didn't, and I didn't suggest we should be - i was responding to the erroneous assertion that we're 4 points off 6th.
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We will not get many chances like that very often, they were there for the taking.
We could see it and so could the commentators.
So against a good attacking team we give in the midfield and let them at us, no surprise for the outcome.
SHIT, SHIT,SHIT we could have won this with better game management.
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Insert "this is fine" fire cartoon meme for Drummond.
Haha, you're so funny.
It's not fine. It's not great at all but you'd think we'd been relegated and disgraced ourselves the way people react.
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He's not inexperienced though is he. OK it's his first Premier League season, but "replace a tired player" is hardly something you'd need to be Guardiola to know.
If it's not inexperience then he either panicked or didn't know what to do. None of those is palatable.
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
and against a shocking and often bottling team such as Arsenal
If we'd have won or even drawn, with the same performance, the reactions would be 180 degree different.
A draw, against a team down to 10 men for an hour, who were also behind would still have been a very poor result.
Not trying to be over picky, but wasn't he sen't off on the stroke of half time?I think we just need to calm down. As I put in the match thread this isn’t a shock, we’ve lost these sort of games for years. We’re 4 points off 6th having played spurs & arsenal away and Everton & West Ham at home.
Wow.
That's marvellous spin.
Firstly, we're not four points off 6th, we're 4 points off 12th, and two places off the bottom.
4 points off twelve then. Does it matter? We aren’t exactly cut a drift are we?
No we're not, but we're also not hovering around the top six, either.
Come on, no one in their right mind expected the club that got in to the play offs after a late season run to be around the top 6 did they? We need to consolidate and stay in the division this season. By any means necessary and it won't be done by questioning everything about the team and management when we lose tight games. There's a time to do that and it isn't after 6 games when you are fighting hard for everything.
No, we didn't, and I didn't suggest we should be - i was responding to the erroneous assertion that we're 4 points off 6th.
By being a dick
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Insert "this is fine" fire cartoon meme for Drummond.
Haha, you're so funny.
It's not fine. It's not great at all but you'd think we'd been relegated and disgraced ourselves the way people react.
Well, we have just gone into the second half one up against ten men, only to repeat the mistake we last made six days ago, and get beaten 3-2 when the correct subs to be made could by spotted by a one eyed man on a galloping horse.
It's not humiliation, no, but it is incredibly frustrating, and it's hardly surprising people are reacting angrily half an hour after it's finished, is it?
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Insert "this is fine" fire cartoon meme for Drummond.
Haha, you're so funny.
It's not fine. It's not great at all but you'd think we'd been relegated and disgraced ourselves the way people react.
I don't think we disgraced ourselves in the first five games, but today? That was pretty pathetic. We may be fortunate that we only have a short turnaround before our next game. Hopefully get that out of our system.
We will probably have the lead against a team that is better than us again at some point this season. My concern is that I have seen nothing to suggest we wouldn't lose again. Smith doesn't seem to have learned from the Tottenham game and that's a worry.
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Haven’t read the other comments so apologies. 2-1 up. Too naive, just that.
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He's not inexperienced though is he. OK it's his first Premier League season, but "replace a tired player" is hardly something you'd need to be Guardiola to know.
If it's not inexperience then he either panicked or didn't know what to do. None of those is palatable.
I think he froze, there really is no other explanation.
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We were all saying to change the team and formation even before they got the penalty.
Wesley scored, but didn't chase or close down at all letting their defenders just run out of defence.
Luiz ran yards and yards on more than one occasion and we end up fouling either in the area or about 20 yards out. They fouled us 50 yards away when necessary.
There was no magic tactical change from Arsenal. They just went gung ho and our game management was appalling. Players making awful mistakes like Mings for the second and the management doing nothing to bolster the midfield. We could easily have pegged them back with a bit of composure or playing the ball into the huge space between the keeper and their defence, and a change of players.
Yes, we played well for an hour or so, but 2-1 up against 10 men, that was just not good enough.
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
and against a shocking and often bottling team such as Arsenal
If we'd have won or even drawn, with the same performance, the reactions would be 180 degree different.
A draw, against a team down to 10 men for an hour, who were also behind would still have been a very poor result.
Not trying to be over picky, but wasn't he sen't off on the stroke of half time?I think we just need to calm down. As I put in the match thread this isn’t a shock, we’ve lost these sort of games for years. We’re 4 points off 6th having played spurs & arsenal away and Everton & West Ham at home.
Wow.
That's marvellous spin.
Firstly, we're not four points off 6th, we're 4 points off 12th, and two places off the bottom.
4 points off twelve then. Does it matter? We aren’t exactly cut a drift are we?
No we're not, but we're also not hovering around the top six, either.
Come on, no one in their right mind expected the club that got in to the play offs after a late season run to be around the top 6 did they? We need to consolidate and stay in the division this season. By any means necessary and it won't be done by questioning everything about the team and management when we lose tight games. There's a time to do that and it isn't after 6 games when you are fighting hard for everything.
No, we didn't, and I didn't suggest we should be - i was responding to the erroneous assertion that we're 4 points off 6th.
By being a dick
Oh, put your knickers back on and calm down - where's the dickishness in my reply? I pointed out you were factually incorrect and that we were two places from the bottom.
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We go on the backfoot whilst in the lead.
Instead of going for the jugular. Poor management.
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Chill, people. 32 games to go. Next 3 are eminently winnable. We go again, you bunch of sugarbags.
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Insert "this is fine" fire cartoon meme for Drummond.
Haha, you're so funny.
It's not fine. It's not great at all but you'd think we'd been relegated and disgraced ourselves the way people react.
Well, we have just gone into the second half one up against ten men, only to repeat the mistake we last made six days ago, and get beaten 3-2 when the correct subs to be made could by spotted by a one eyed man on a galloping horse.
It's not humiliation, no, but it is incredibly frustrating, and it's hardly surprising people are reacting angrily half an hour after it's finished, is it?
We got into that position to then lose it. We didn't do a Watford.
Of course it's frustrating but don't start questioning him already. Please.
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He's not inexperienced though is he. OK it's his first Premier League season, but "replace a tired player" is hardly something you'd need to be Guardiola to know.
If it's not inexperience then he either panicked or didn't know what to do. None of those is palatable.
I think he froze, there really is no other explanation.
It felt a bit like Spurs. After that match he said the pressure was intense, and it was inevitable they'd win etc etc, and it was almost as if he'd just stood there and watched it unfold, as if it were inevitable.
They're both good sides, but there's something about that that worries me.
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Insert "this is fine" fire cartoon meme for Drummond.
Haha, you're so funny.
It's not fine. It's not great at all but you'd think we'd been relegated and disgraced ourselves the way people react.
Well, we have just gone into the second half one up against ten men, only to repeat the mistake we last made six days ago, and get beaten 3-2 when the correct subs to be made could by spotted by a one eyed man on a galloping horse.
It's not humiliation, no, but it is incredibly frustrating, and it's hardly surprising people are reacting angrily half an hour after it's finished, is it?
Very frustrating, a win today would have given us a massive boost in confidence.
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Oh, put your knickers back on and calm down
Classic Monkfish.
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That felt worryingly like the Leicester 15/16 game. Played well, things appeared to be clicking but pissed it away, mainly through tactical ineptitude.
Absolutely nothing like Sherwood, a manager with no pedigree, who had proven nothing at the club, who was a proven bullshitter, who helped harness division in the dressing room, throwing on an extra attacking player when we were at Leicester and falling apart.
This is the over the top crap that I am talking about.
Comparing Tim Sherwood to Dean Smith?
Here's a clue, one of them will never manage again. Take a guess who it is and for why.
The comparison is that we were on top but a poor substitution that broke our shape messed us up.
On top of that our form until that match wasn't too dissimilar to our form so far this season. All the truly pathetic stuff from Sherwood only really started after that and I wouldn't expect Smith to react in a remotely similar way, which is why he's a better man.
Smith needs to learn from this, he can't be bringing Elmo on as a winger, it just doesn't work and he needs to be more proactive with changes when someone on the opposite team is getting on top of us like Guendouzi started to.
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
and against a shocking and often bottling team such as Arsenal
If we'd have won or even drawn, with the same performance, the reactions would be 180 degree different.
A draw, against a team down to 10 men for an hour, who were also behind would still have been a very poor result.
Not trying to be over picky, but wasn't he sen't off on the stroke of half time?I think we just need to calm down. As I put in the match thread this isn’t a shock, we’ve lost these sort of games for years. We’re 4 points off 6th having played spurs & arsenal away and Everton & West Ham at home.
Wow.
That's marvellous spin.
Firstly, we're not four points off 6th, we're 4 points off 12th, and two places off the bottom.
4 points off twelve then. Does it matter? We aren’t exactly cut a drift are we?
No we're not, but we're also not hovering around the top six, either.
Come on, no one in their right mind expected the club that got in to the play offs after a late season run to be around the top 6 did they? We need to consolidate and stay in the division this season. By any means necessary and it won't be done by questioning everything about the team and management when we lose tight games. There's a time to do that and it isn't after 6 games when you are fighting hard for everything.
No, we didn't, and I didn't suggest we should be - i was responding to the erroneous assertion that we're 4 points off 6th.
By being a dick
Oh, put your knickers back on and calm down - where's the dickishness in my reply? I pointed out you were factually incorrect and that we were two places from the bottom.
“Calm down” from the gent who is crapping himself after 6 games and a 3-2 defeat away at Arsenal. Genius.
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Insert "this is fine" fire cartoon meme for Drummond.
Haha, you're so funny.
It's not fine. It's not great at all but you'd think we'd been relegated and disgraced ourselves the way people react.
Well, we have just gone into the second half one up against ten men, only to repeat the mistake we last made six days ago, and get beaten 3-2 when the correct subs to be made could by spotted by a one eyed man on a galloping horse.
It's not humiliation, no, but it is incredibly frustrating, and it's hardly surprising people are reacting angrily half an hour after it's finished, is it?
We got into that position to then lose it. We didn't do a Watford.
Of course it's frustrating but don't start questioning him already. Please.
Smith has had a lot of praise so far in his Villa career and rightly so. However, you have to question him and the players today. They royally fucked it up.
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Utter bollocks from Smith. Thought the players did admirably if I'm being honest, and after breathing through their collective arseholes after 65mins, they really needed Smith to come in and change it up.
I like Smith as our manager, but he has done nothing so far..... NOTHING... to give me confidence that he is a Premier League manager. He needs to wise up to his mistakes, and fast!
On the players side of things - McGinn was gone after 65 mins (first time I've seen him so tired) and should have been pulled for hotlips, and I'm really starting to like the look of Nakamba. Sits in there and does a lot of the dirty work.
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Insert "this is fine" fire cartoon meme for Drummond.
Haha, you're so funny.
It's not fine. It's not great at all but you'd think we'd been relegated and disgraced ourselves the way people react.
Well, we have just gone into the second half one up against ten men, only to repeat the mistake we last made six days ago, and get beaten 3-2 when the correct subs to be made could by spotted by a one eyed man on a galloping horse.
It's not humiliation, no, but it is incredibly frustrating, and it's hardly surprising people are reacting angrily half an hour after it's finished, is it?
We got into that position to then lose it. We didn't do a Watford.
Of course it's frustrating but don't start questioning him already. Please.
No, you're right, we didn't lose 8-0, that would have been way more, but we managed to turn 3 points into none by way of some poor management. It isn't surprising people are questioning the manager's handling of the game as a result.
It's not the end of the world, but there's going to be immense frustration.
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Chill, people. 32 games to go. Next 3 are eminently winnable. We go again, you bunch of sugarbags.
Sugarbags!!!lol.
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Corralling my thoughts walking back up the Holloway Road.
The first is the bad; the naivety that was the last 20 minutes. For me we needed to sacrifice the wide options quicker and bring in more central midfielders to try and stop them running through us.
Having a man advantage is fine, unless you're sacrificing territory and possession in which case it makes no difference.
All three goals were very poor. Engles in the build up to giving the free kick away for the 3rd, Mings no clearing his lines for the 2nd and just letting their player drive through us for the 1st. All very avoidable.
We've thrown it away, all 3 points.
But, I also felt we played well for good chunks. We looked threatening, probably should have scored more. Grealish needs to get on the ball and drive more, as when he did, he cut them to ribbons.
There's plenty there, but I feel our naivety is working against us at the moment. I didnt expect anything here today, but I leave, hugely irritated that we didnt win.
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I'm really starting to like the look of Nakamba. Sits in there and does a lot of the dirty work.
Agreed. Thought he was great today. Full of running, makes it look simple, battles well making it difficult for the opposition.. and gets subbed when McGinn was on all fours.
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Corralling my thoughts walking back up the Holloway Road.
The first is the bad; the naivety that was the last 20 minutes. For me we needed to sacrifice the wide options quicker and bring in more central midfielders to try and stop them running through us.
Having a man advantage is fine, unless you're sacrificing territory and possession in which case it makes no difference.
All three goals were very poor. Engles in the build up to giving the free kick away for the 3rd, Mings no clearing his lines for the 2nd and just letting their player drive through us for the 1st. All very avoidable.
We've thrown it away, all 3 points.
But, I also felt we played well for good chunks. We looked threatening, probably should have scored more. Grealish needs to get on the ball and drive more, as when he did, he cut them to ribbons.
There's plenty there, but I feel our naivety is working against us at the moment. I didnt expect anything here today, but I leave, hugely irritated that we didnt win.
A very fair summation without the needless hyperbole.
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Jack Grealish made that second goal however he needed to do a lot more against 10 players and look to deliver . That was a match where he needed to stepup to control things instead we invited too much pressure and Guendouzi.
Guendouzi is a different level of midfielder to what we have.
We needed a midfielder like that to run the game and be on the ball.
Trezeguet looks so weak and offering very little. Look at how Guendouzi shrugged him off.
Hardly any link up with Gilbert.
Guilbert does well but is another Hutton with his crossing and lack of want to get to byline.
I think Marvellous Nakamba needed to come off sooner.
Douglas Luiz was needed at the right time or even Hourihane Villa were playing far too open.
Far too easy letting Arsenal on to us inviting pressure and then were held back by the lack of ability of attacking players and midfielders holding the ball .
Mings was shocking with his header to Taylor trying to go calm and play a short header to team mate in area asked for trouble . That was an individual error.
As was the 3rd with Nakamba who should have been subbed passing back loosely
Really annoying to lose that and should not have done
Well done to Wesley, took his goal well,and showed bits and pieces but not enough against the 10. ElGhazi was good enough in parts but Trezeguet deserved to be subbed but not for Elmo.
I said before don't see a win till October 19th but was pleasantly surprised in the lead at 1-0 and that when Maitland Niles is 2nd yellow did think that we would win and great character again at 1-1 to instant get ahead .
That's where failed at 2-1 . To go on and keep goal threat.
Watching I felt the nevitable even against 10 that Arsenal would find a way
Didn't offer enough in attack and that was annoying.
And didn't look to change to make anything solid in midfield.
I don't know what other people are saying about Dean's tactics as they are not explaining anything but I certainly saw a far too open side and a side that then showed little intent to attack and wilted.
Luiz was not on the bench.
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Guendouzi is a different level of midfielder to what we have.
He is, he's a proper annoying little scrote.
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Again we look worse when we have an extra man. That fucking about with short passes in our own box was at the heart of Mings' assist for Chambers equaliser and really disappointing to concede from that free-kick where we let Arsenal bully our wall.
Naive stuff that doesn't bode well.
Good point. That wall was shambolic. Theres much work to do on the training ground.
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Guendouzi is a different level of midfielder to what we have.
He is, he's a proper annoying little scrote.
Agreed. What a tosser he was today.
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Guendouzi is a different level of midfielder to what we have.
He is, he's a proper annoying little scrote.
As is Bangyouwangs hair.
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The inevitability of defeat is almost crushing, the game was ours to lose and lose it we did.
If we don’t start learning, and quickly, we are going to be deep in a relegation battle at the time we need to look attractive to potential players.
We were absolutely fine until the last 20 then lost shape, discipline and belief at a rapid rate.
We really did just need to look after the ball but we completely negated the benefit of the extra man and just threw the game away.
Not a defeat that is particularly surprising but the manner of it is worrying
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Expected to lose but it's the manner of it and the hope that kills you. Sixty minutes in and you conned into thinking we might just do it and then the inevitable Villa self destruction sets in and we end up with zip. Happened countless times over the years. I love Smith but I can't see where the next win is coming from.
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This is the second time in consecutive games that we've failed miserably to beat a team of 10 men. Unfortunately, I think the writing is on the wall for us.
You also would have thought we'd learned something from our opening game but judging by today's performance we didn't learn a damn thing.
There may be 32 remaining games but we won't be winning many of them.
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It’s the hope that kills you.
Losing 3-2 away to Arsenal is not generally relegation form. We scored 2 good goals.
I think maybe 433 away at Arsenal wasn’t the best idea, and I’m sure Dean is now fully aware of this.
I have faith.
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In parts some of our best play all season
We were not playing Rotherham so some of the comments above totally unfair. 110% by each and every one of our gang
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Insert "this is fine" fire cartoon meme for Drummond.
Haha, you're so funny.
It's not fine. It's not great at all but you'd think we'd been relegated and disgraced ourselves the way people react.
Well, we have just gone into the second half one up against ten men, only to repeat the mistake we last made six days ago, and get beaten 3-2 when the correct subs to be made could by spotted by a one eyed man on a galloping horse.
It's not humiliation, no, but it is incredibly frustrating, and it's hardly surprising people are reacting angrily half an hour after it's finished, is it?
We got into that position to then lose it. We didn't do a Watford.
Of course it's frustrating but don't start questioning him already. Please.
No, you're right, we didn't lose 8-0, that would have been way more, but we managed to turn 3 points into none by way of some poor management. It isn't surprising people are questioning the manager's handling of the game as a result.
It's not the end of the world, but there's going to be immense frustration.
It's the questioning of him overall I've an issue with.
Of course we could have done more. I also think the players need to wise up too. It's not all down to the manager. Perhaps he's letting them learn.
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In parts some of our best play all season
We were not playing Rotherham so some of the comments above totally unfair. 110% by each and every one of our gang
Yes it was. With 11 or 10 for a good hour or more we were playing well. A world away from Palace, where we were flat.
I feel positive that we can continue to compete in this league for the first time.
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Corralling my thoughts walking back up the Holloway Road.
The first is the bad; the naivety that was the last 20 minutes. For me we needed to sacrifice the wide options quicker and bring in more central midfielders to try and stop them running through us.
Having a man advantage is fine, unless you're sacrificing territory and possession in which case it makes no difference.
All three goals were very poor. Engles in the build up to giving the free kick away for the 3rd, Mings no clearing his lines for the 2nd and just letting their player drive through us for the 1st. All very avoidable.
We've thrown it away, all 3 points.
But, I also felt we played well for good chunks. We looked threatening, probably should have scored more. Grealish needs to get on the ball and drive more, as when he did, he cut them to ribbons.
There's plenty there, but I feel our naivety is working against us at the moment. I didnt expect anything here today, but I leave, hugely irritated that we didnt win.
A good summary, Ads. We played well in the first half and stayed with them in an open game far better than I’d expected. We were good value for the lead at both 1-0 and 2-1.
That’s part of what makes it so annoying, all that graft and decent football for nothing.
But yeah when I calm down a bit I’m sure I’ll feel better, because there was undoubtedly some good football from us.
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SJM
"That is two weeks in a row that teams down to 10 men have affected us badly. We have addressed it in the dressing room.
"I don't know if it is a lack of belief or tiredness, which it shouldn't be. We should be creating the chances but we weren't.
"We showed we are dangerous and scored a good goal, concede one and then show it again. But we got deeper and deeper and you can't do that. It is game management. It has cost us dearly this season.
"When you force pressure on yourself you get punished. We need to capitalise when things go for us in the game.
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Why wasn't Douglas Luis on the bench? I would have thought he would have been ideal to bring on.
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Thought we were desperately poor early on. AEG failing to track the full back in the first min should have led to an Arsenal goal. As expected, they were as nervous as we were and first goal was going to be crucial. Credit El Ghazi for the cross and McGinn for making the run, untracked by Ghendouzi. Thought Maitland Niles second yellow was harsh but he shouldnt have been diving in like that when booked already (good run from AEG drew the first yellow).
You would think after Monday night, we would be a lot better off for the experience of playing with an extra man. Especially against an Arsenal midfield badly lacking mobility (Xhaka and Ceballos were hopeless). Smith's go to attacking change bringing Elmo on the right didnt have the desired effect to put it mildly. But the crucial subs were a few minutes later, Emery, possibly facing the sack, went for a double change in midfield and immediately Arsenal took charge, Ghendouzi hit the post and it seemed they had the extra man. Villa at sea on the pitch and on the sideline. Penalty was harsh enough I thought, Engels had little option with the ball, Trez hid from the pass, good run but wasnt much contact I thought. Grealish finally produced a moment of quality a few minutes later but we never seemed comfortable even at 1-2. Again Smith badly found wanting. Diabolical second goal conceded, AEG not tracking the run (trademark), Mings not clearing his lines, Taylor glued to the spot. Third was brutal too, shot wasnt even in corner, poor wall and Grealish poor again. Bit unlucky not to get a penalty from Hourihane's shot but we didnt deserve anything.
Heaton 5- needs to take a share of the blame for the hologram of a wall for the winner
Guilbert 6 - bit lightweight but his pace gives us options, needs to use ball better and his crosses were both unnecessary and predictable
Engels 6 - our best player for most of the game but at fault arguably for two goals
Mings 7 - dominant for most of it but crazy decision to head towards Taylor cost us a goal
Taylor 5 - thought he was solid enough for most of the game, after second goal went in he lost the plot
Nakamba 6 - solid enough and looks a decent addition, didnt do enough to keep us playing with an extra man though
McGinn 7 - deserved the goal and a danger throughout but not managing his energy properly nor contributing enough to keeping the ball
Grealish 5 - provided the best moment of quality in the game but that aside his performance was unacceptable, he should be thriving against 10 men but rarely took responsibility in or out of possession. question mark over captaincy for me
AEG 5 - like Grealish in that a single assist cant paper over the cracks of his performance, without the ball a liability as proved for the second goal and numerous poor decisions with it. Frustrating as clearly has talent
Trez 5 - worked hard without the ball but precious little quality with it. His pace is useful but a very limited player Im afraid. Poor for the first goal.
Wesley 5 - The goal added about 2 marks to his score, really poor in general play against a pair of centre backs that have been in poor form. Like most was hoping he would have been taken on at half time.
Elmo 4 - horrible but not his fault, reminds me of McLeish playing Hutton right wing v Spurs
Hourihane was lively when he came in, Lansbury seemed to be brought on at left wing!
Smith 3 - Another Dean Smith tactical horror show Im afraid. We have had 80-90mins in the last two games with an extra man and been genuinely clueless. Subs and timing of them a huge problem now.
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We all know it's a learning process but we don't seem to be learning nearly quick enough. To be twice leading against 10 men for over half the match and still manage to lose is inexcusable. Goals was always going to be our problem but folding like this is even more alarming. Game management seems to be lacking. Worrying times ahead I fear.
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Disappointed today, by the manner of the defeat (2 goals conceded in last 10 mins), but more worryingly by the apparent lack of learning that has taken place since the opening day of the season. I wouldn't have started with 2 wingers today but it was working up until the point Trez was substituted. That's when our problems were exposed. Instead of shoring up the midfield with hungry midfielders in Conor and Henri wanting to force their way into the team we continued with 433 and Elmo. Waiting until we'd conceded 3 was too late for these players and the team. I love Deano but he needs to cop on and improve his in-game management and he needs to start showing flexibility in his formation. His coaches need to have a strong word with him and make themselves heard, if they're thinking along these lines also. Losing to the Arses won't relegate us, but we missed an opportunity, mainly down to management decisions.
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SJM
"That is two weeks in a row that teams down to 10 men have affected us badly. We have addressed it in the dressing room.
"I don't know if it is a lack of belief or tiredness, which it shouldn't be. We should be creating the chances but we weren't.
"We showed we are dangerous and scored a good goal, concede one and then show it again. But we got deeper and deeper and you can't do that. It is game management. It has cost us dearly this season.
"When you force pressure on yourself you get punished. We need to capitalise when things go for us in the game.
Sounds like some strong words and ideas being passed around. Good. There's a problem with fear.
As an aside, Elmo's wife and two children were stood near to me. Utterly adorable little girl with her teddy going barmy when her dad came on.
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I was not able to watch or listen to this but it’s too soon to be saying relegation scrap. We need to adapt to this league and to be fair despite that run last year we hardly ripped the championship in half to get up. New team, very naive manager at moment but we cannot keep looking for the new messiah by changing managers. Yes we were wasteful but we have a hell of a lot to learn in this league as the complacency of being Aston Villa and expecting to be in the premier league needs rethinking. Keep the faith and it’s a long way from Tim nice but dims Leicester debacle. It will click it just needs time and luck
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At this rate Mr Terry will be the Manager by the next international break.
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SJM
"That is two weeks in a row that teams down to 10 men have affected us badly. We have addressed it in the dressing room.
"I don't know if it is a lack of belief or tiredness, which it shouldn't be. We should be creating the chances but we weren't.
"We showed we are dangerous and scored a good goal, concede one and then show it again. But we got deeper and deeper and you can't do that. It is game management. It has cost us dearly this season.
"When you force pressure on yourself you get punished. We need to capitalise when things go for us in the game.
As an aside, Elmo's wife and two children were stood near to me. Utterly adorable little girl with her teddy going barmy when her dad came on.
Ffs, even his own child could see that it was the wrong sub, sort it out Deano.
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It’s the hope that kills you.
Losing 3-2 away to Arsenal is not generally relegation form. We scored 2 good goals.
I think maybe 433 away at Arsenal wasn’t the best idea, and I’m sure Dean is now fully aware of this.
I have faith.
Thats the worst Arsenal side I can recall in over 25 years. They are a nothing team, like most in this division, with their fans on the backs and the manager on the verge of getting fired I suspect.
1-0 up with an extra man for over 50 mins and to lose 3-2 is completely unacceptable.
Same Monday night, a man up for over 30 mins against a very average West Ham side at home and failing to win is extremely poor.
Those 5 additional points could prove very costly later in the season.
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At this rate Mr Terry will be the Manager by the next international break.
Nonsense.
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I think we need to perhaps recalibrate our reality if we think a a side who finished with 70 points are a nothing team. Not as good as they were, undoubtedly, but let's not be daft.
Equally, a very average West Ham, who beat Man United today comfortably and have about £150 million of forward players.
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I agree that it wasn’t a particularly impressive Arsenal side, thought the midfielder with the big hair drove the play well, other than that bang average.
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On the subject of the Arses. Their fans are the most pathetic, whining b-stards out there. They forced Wenger out, when he had given them more than they deserved. Today all through the game on tw-tter they were calling for Emery to be sacked. They really are a sad shower of self entitled pr-cks.
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I think we need to perhaps recalibrate our reality if we think a a side who finished with 70 points are a nothing team. Not as good as they were, undoubtedly, but let's not be daft.
Equally, a very average West Ham, who beat Man United today comfortably and have about £150 million of forward players.
Am glad you said it, I felt dirty complimenting either of them!
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Thought we were desperately poor early on. AEG failing to track the full back in the first min should have led to an Arsenal goal. As expected, they were as nervous as we were and first goal was going to be crucial. Credit El Ghazi for the cross and McGinn for making the run, untracked by Ghendouzi. Thought Maitland Niles second yellow was harsh but he shouldnt have been diving in like that when booked already (good run from AEG drew the first yellow).
You would think after Monday night, we would be a lot better off for the experience of playing with an extra man. Especially against an Arsenal midfield badly lacking mobility (Xhaka and Ceballos were hopeless). Smith's go to attacking change bringing Elmo on the right didnt have the desired effect to put it mildly. But the crucial subs were a few minutes later, Emery, possibly facing the sack, went for a double change in midfield and immediately Arsenal took charge, Ghendouzi hit the post and it seemed they had the extra man. Villa at sea on the pitch and on the sideline. Penalty was harsh enough I thought, Engels had little option with the ball, Trez hid from the pass, good run but wasnt much contact I thought. Grealish finally produced a moment of quality a few minutes later but we never seemed comfortable even at 1-2. Again Smith badly found wanting. Diabolical second goal conceded, AEG not tracking the run (trademark), Mings not clearing his lines, Taylor glued to the spot. Third was brutal too, shot wasnt even in corner, poor wall and Grealish poor again. Bit unlucky not to get a penalty from Hourihane's shot but we didnt deserve anything.
Heaton 5- needs to take a share of the blame for the hologram of a wall for the winner
Guilbert 6 - bit lightweight but his pace gives us options, needs to use ball better and his crosses were both unnecessary and predictable
Engels 6 - our best player for most of the game but at fault arguably for two goals
Mings 7 - dominant for most of it but crazy decision to head towards Taylor cost us a goal
Taylor 5 - thought he was solid enough for most of the game, after second goal went in he lost the plot
Nakamba 6 - solid enough and looks a decent addition, didnt do enough to keep us playing with an extra man though
McGinn 7 - deserved the goal and a danger throughout but not managing his energy properly nor contributing enough to keeping the ball
Grealish 5 - provided the best moment of quality in the game but that aside his performance was unacceptable, he should be thriving against 10 men but rarely took responsibility in or out of possession. question mark over captaincy for me
AEG 5 - like Grealish in that a single assist cant paper over the cracks of his performance, without the ball a liability as proved for the second goal and numerous poor decisions with it. Frustrating as clearly has talent
Trez 5 - worked hard without the ball but precious little quality with it. His pace is useful but a very limited player Im afraid. Poor for the first goal.
Wesley 5 - The goal added about 2 marks to his score, really poor in general play against a pair of centre backs that have been in poor form. Like most was hoping he would have been taken on at half time.
Elmo 4 - horrible but not his fault, reminds me of McLeish playing Hutton right wing v Spurs
Hourihane was lively when he came in, Lansbury seemed to be brought on at left wing!
Smith 3 - Another Dean Smith tactical horror show Im afraid. We have had 80-90mins in the last two games with an extra man and been genuinely clueless. Subs and timing of them a huge problem now.
Really interesting post. I agree with your thinking that I think you're saying in that foreign managers are far more likely to roll the dice at key moments in games when he made that double change that gave them much more mobility in central midfield to nulifiy McGinn. It's not like Emery was bringing on world class players either, think Willock has five premier league games in his career. As you say a comeback that arguably has kept him in a job as defeat and Arsenal fans would've be giving it lots on social media as they were doing in the first half.
Always feels to me British managers would rather try and get over the line battered and bruised rather than freshing things up, battling in the trenches if you want to use that analogy.
One manager rolled the dice with 25 minutes left and it worked out o.k for him.
Sure they'll be some disagreement on the playing ratings but interesting stuff aside from that.
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On the subject of the Arses. Their fans are the most pathetic, whining b-stards out there. They forced Wenger out, when he had given them more than they deserved. Today all through the game on tw-tter they were calling for Emery to be sacked. They really are a sad shower of self entitled pr-cks.
they are a horrible club with shyster players and pathetic fans.
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I think we need to perhaps recalibrate our reality if we think a a side who finished with 70 points are a nothing team. Not as good as they were, undoubtedly, but let's not be daft.
Equally, a very average West Ham, who beat Man United today comfortably and have about £150 million of forward players.
Am glad you said it, I felt dirty complimenting either of them!
Through gritted teeth. But we've been gone 3 years and gone for 10 as anything other than a joke. Things change, Arsenal have got worse, but when was the last time we finished with 70 points and got to a European final? Nothing team? Just nonsense.
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McGinn said: "That is two weeks in a row that teams down to 10 men have affected us badly. We have addressed it in the dressing room.
"I don't know if it is a lack of belief or tiredness, which it shouldn't be. We should be creating the chances but we weren't.
"We showed we are dangerous and scored a good goal, concede one and then show it again. But we got deeper and deeper and you can't do that. It is game management. It has cost us dearly this season.
"When you force pressure on yourself you get punished. We need to capitalise when things go for us in the game.
See he can spot it.
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Having calmed down a bit i'm still trying to come to terms with that.
It was a surrender for sure, a weak soft bellied surrender at that. But it didn't surprise me one bit.
Even at 1-2 up, i didn't sense/see belief in the players that we could go on and win it. And at 2-2 there was only one result likely to happen and it did.
But, for all that negatives there were some positives before i went tits up. I'll try to cling onto those.
But rest assured, if we don't learn to kill off, or see out games we're going straight back down for certain. And that would be a disaster for the club.
Sort it out Dean/John/Richard, and the same message goes out to all the players. It's a collective problem and needs a collective solution.
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I think we need to perhaps recalibrate our reality if we think a a side who finished with 70 points are a nothing team. Not as good as they were, undoubtedly, but let's not be daft.
Equally, a very average West Ham, who beat Man United today comfortably and have about £150 million of forward players.
It's a good quality premier league imo. No Fulham or Huddersfield types this year although Steve Bruce will give it a right good go at Newcastle.
Believe it or not but we have some good players and score some good goals like the two we scored today.
The naivety in our play and also from our manager at key points this season has really hurt us though and that is one aspect of relegated teams so a big problem we need to improve on and aren't.
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On my way to Euston and totally devastated. We lost this game because Smith did not manage the second half properly. Poor and inadequate decisions with subs and tactics.
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It feels like we've been saying it for far to long but Jack is way to deep, his run for Wesleys goal was fucking brilliant and then shortly after he did it again for Trez's tame shot, Arsenal were shitting themselves at that point but then for whatever reason we retreated and he barely broke into their half again.
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2 of our 3 away games being Spurs and Arsenal hasn't helped, as that naivety is far more likely to be punished. I try not to think of Palace, as flat as we and the game was, as Kevin Friend will make me have a hissy fit.
We've got a lot to learn, however, I do feel that maybe part of that naivety is a little fear and a lack of belief. McGinn and his comments suggest there's been a blood letting.
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I don’t disagree that we should have done better against 10 men, and I know at the back it’s hardly vintage Arsenal, but most teams would like their attacking options of Aubameyang, Lacazette, Pepe, Ozil etc. We certainly would.
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I just can not understand how he watched them tear through us without doing something about it.
That's the thing. I cant believe how 10 players can have so much space to play in.
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Pathetic
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I think the Fulham comparisons are beginning to have a ring of truth.
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He looks a bit rattled here. And Luiz was just left out!
https://mobile.twitter.com/AVFCOfficial/status/1175848133772959745?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
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First time I have been disappointed with a DS post match interview.
Complete abdication of responsibility and the tired excuse of blaming mistakes.
Disappointing
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Really over the top reactions.
We spent all the second half against 10 men, the 10 men did us 3-1 in that half, what reaction are you expecting?
and against a shocking and often bottling team such as Arsenal
Arsenal are shocking? Fucking hell, you're in for a long hard season then. They will finish top 6. We won't. There's a gulf to make up from getting promoted. It's the start of the season. We've lost narrowly this season, there is enough ability all round for the team to improve and start turning around a poor start. Panic and we will shoot ourselves in the foot. It will be a tough season and at times we won't look coherent.
Smith isn't shit. We've spent months waxing lyrical about him.
Engels and Mings aren't shit.
Grealish isn't all tippy tappy and nothing to show for it, we've spoken about him being able to play for the national team.
The list goes on, every mistake doesn't need to be poured over and over and reacted upon because we're all pissed off that we've fucked up an opportunity.
If we'd have won or even drawn, with the same performance, the reactions would be 180 degree different. I'm not saying I'm delighted about how we are playing but we are definitely not terrible as is being made out and the manager isn't a fool as is being made out. And please let's not start the ''what do they do in training'', '' we aren't fit enough'' rubbish. It get's rolled out by every team whenever they lose.
So why do we look totally knackered against 10 men. We have an extra man FFS for the whole second half which we lost 3-1. You are defending the indefensible
Arsenal may finish top 6 but are bang average. Did you see their surrender last week SH against Watford, it was awful, and only beaten by ours today
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The thing that worries me about Deano is that he never seems to learn when it comes to game management.People rightly go on about the West Ham game and how we failed to take advantage and could so easily have lost let alone win but i go back to the Sandwell Town play off semi final .Sandwell must have played for getting on nearly a hour in that game with ten men and we still managed to lose the game .His substitutions also baffle me at times,,he seems obsessed with Elmo ,surely Lansbury would have made more sense at the time
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Got up early to watch the replay and paused it 10 minutes into the second half and well in control to find out the final score. Needless to say I won't be watching the rest of the game. Gutted that's the word but the signs have been there all season, Smiths handling of substitutes is terrible usually leaving it too late and the same old same old. Wesley is not prem standard yet and has to be dropped, Trez works hard but a winger who cannot beat a man is not a winger. I expected to lose today but not to ten men after playing well for sixty minutes.
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Really over the top reactions.
Not at all over the top. It was embarrassing today and when you add it to our other 10 men performances it’s deeply worrying.
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Hugely frustration result given the position that we were in. We really shouldn’t be losing a game like that.
Always find it difficult to rationally analyse a game like that given the emotional investment, but some thoughts on the game for what it is worth.
Coupe of positive points:
- First half performance was decent against a good team. We restricted them to very little (only real chance I remember was the one in the first minute), moved the ball well and generally looked a lot more positive than the last few games, although the final ball/general creativeness in the final third was still a little lacking.
- Thought Nkamba, Grealish and McGinn all had pretty decent games. Think a combination of them and/or Luiz has the making of a good central midfield.
- Wesley’s work rate, hold up and link play was improved from Monday night until he got completely isolated later in the game. Nice little finish for his goal as well.
The less good:
- Game management is so poor. Really important at this level and we seem very naive so far. Think both the coaching team and players have to take some responsibility. Dropping deeper, the lack of composure on the ball/not retaining possession well, timing of substitutions and players involved. Compare to Arsenal once they went 3-2 up with their tactical foul, time wasting and how they look after the ball - think we only had the Hourihane shot in the 12 or so minutes that were left.
- Don’t think Smith has been using his substitutes well. Have we seen one this season where it has had a big influence on the game? Definitely needs to be more proactive as well. Easy to be wise after the event, but think it was obvious that a/some changes were needed before they actually happened. Also, just think the El Mohamady sub was strange - surely Jota or Lansbury would have helped retain the ball better which we were struggling with at the time and both maintained an attacking threat and been enough to defend vs. 10 men.
- Obvious thing to say, but you don’t get away with the poor individual errors from Engles and Mings against decent teams. Engels initial clearance in the lead up to the penalty followed by the challenge and Mings header for their second were not good decisions at all. Shame, as they have been excellent so far, and we do need to defend better as a team in order to relieve pressure on them, but those two moments did cost us today.
Positives to take, absolutely, and parts of that performance will be good enough to take points in lots of games this season, but we need to maintain them over longer spells and sharpen up in a few areas in order to make that actually happen enough times.
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Really over the top reactions.
Not at all over the top. It was embarrassing today and when you add it to our other 10 men performances it’s deeply worrying.
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Naive. Not good enough. Not fit enough. Not enough managerial nous. Not even a fucking point from that? I'm not wetting my pants yet but fuck me we are not good enough.
And I'm really pissed off that the boring, silent Tarquins got to sing 'You're not singing any more'.
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And who fucking lined up the wall for that free kick?🤦🏻♂️
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What about that handball that should have been a penalty for us? Fucking ******!
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I dunno, think it would have been harsh. High up on his shoulder and he was trying to retract his arm.
Still, ******!
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We still lack leadership on the pitch. We have to be much more ruthless in defence, the second Arsenal goal was embarrassing, the first one was bad enough with the hairbear bunch running through several Villa players unchallenged before Engels blows wind on him. The wall for the free-kick was where we needed some leadership as we are too nice. We have to toughen up and be antagonistic, ruthless and arrogant. I know we didn't lose against West Ham but this week has been about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. In truth, not many of us expected anything from today's game, and that's what makes it all the more galling because a situation presented itself and we failed to take advantage. not good enough. The substitutions were a bit baffling today too. Agree with others, we don't look fit enough to me.
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Well their penalty was definitely harsh. ******!
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And who fucking lined up the wall for that free kick?🤦🏻♂️
Nobody
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I've just listened to Dean Smith's post-match interview. I bet he was glad to get away from the cameras. Even with an interviewer who was fairly tame.
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We don’t seem to be learning very quickly
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What I want us to learn from, playing against 10 men, is the fact that, in both cases, they lost a full back and then made a substitution to ensure that West Ham and Arsenal had four at the back, meaning that they take a player off the pitch, further forward. Surely, the right thing for Villa to do today was to flood the midfield and overload it, so they couldn't play through us? And yet, we didn't, we brought on a full back to play on the right wing and swapped one midfielder for an other. Poor decisions.
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What I want us to learn from, playing against 10 men, is the fact that, in both cases, they lost a full back and then made a substitution to ensure that West Ham and Arsenal had four at the back, meaning that they take a player off the pitch, further forward. Surely, the right thing for Villa to do today was to flood the midfield and overload it, so they couldn't play through us? And yet, we didn't, we brought on a full back to play on the right wing and swapped one midfielder for an other. Poor decisions.
Correct
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Yeas and they also pushed their full backs on to us.
Go 4 4 2 or 4 5 1 and you have countered it.
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Watching Jack jump out of the way on the free kick in the wall....bad stuff.
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DS not blameless today, but if we had avoided a couple of individual errors for their first two goals and had a more favourable pen decision at the end, it’s a different story.
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Piss poor penalty decision. Should have been, without question.
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Watching Jack jump out of the way on the free kick in the wall....bad stuff.
Some effort from our captain alright
Heaton takes responsibility for the wall though, seemed badly set up.
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Just saw on MOTD the VAR-not-given penalty. When even Smurphy says it was a blatant pen you just know we've been robbed of a probable point by poor officiating again.
Straws, clutching and all that but even so...
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Just home, still seething. Will we ever f*cking learn? Forget that handball, it shouldn’t have even mattered, we should have put the game to bed before then but we threw it into reverse after going ahead. In my opinion, we lack mental strength and physical fitness, and that needs addressing as a matter of urgency.
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DS not blameless today, but if we had avoided a couple of individual errors for their first two goals and had a more favourable pen decision at the end, it’s a different story.
Exactly. Pant wetters please take note. All this talk of game management and formations ignores this. Engles hasn't put a foot wrong all season but 2 goals came from his poor distribution and decision making and the other from a piss poor header from Mings. Couple all that with the ref and var missing a blatant penalty and the result could've been so so different. Those ripping into Dean Smith at this early stage are being a bit harsh imo. The fickle lable will be coming our way again soon.
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I'm hearing from a reliable source certain players are getting a little frustrated with DS, one being Mcginn and his post match interview would confirm this.
Somehthing don't feel right
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DS not blameless today, but if we had avoided a couple of individual errors for their first two goals and had a more favourable pen decision at the end, it’s a different story.
Exactly. Pant wetters please take note. All this talk of game management and formations ignores this. Engles hasn't put a foot wrong all season but 2 goals came from his poor distribution and decision making and the other from a piss poor header from Mings. Couple all that with the ref and var missing a blatant penalty and the result could've been so so different. Those ripping into Dean Smith at this early stage are being a bit harsh imo. The fickle lable will be coming our way again soon.
That’s fine, but the last two games v 10 men have given us 1 point, errors v Bournemouth and whatever else you want you want to throw in all equal the same points as we have now. We have thrown away points, not bad luck, us Villa players and management. And no I don’t want him sacked and if you call me fickle because we have thrown away points, that’s ok. I really hope we don’t need those points at the end of the season.
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DS not blameless today, but if we had avoided a couple of individual errors for their first two goals and had a more favourable pen decision at the end, it’s a different story.
Exactly. Pant wetters please take note. All this talk of game management and formations ignores this. Engles hasn't put a foot wrong all season but 2 goals came from his poor distribution and decision making and the other from a piss poor header from Mings. Couple all that with the ref and var missing a blatant penalty and the result could've been so so different. Those ripping into Dean Smith at this early stage are being a bit harsh imo. The fickle lable will be coming our way again soon.
I think it is collective responsibility though. I’m sure Dean didn’t say at half time “give it ten minutes then drop 20 yards deeper and start being sloppy with the ball” but given it happened you would then hope he does something to rectify it.
And yes, if you look at the goals in isolation, you can put them down to poor individual mistakes/decisions, but I reckon that is far more likely to happen when you are under pretty constant pressure from the opposition.
I think it’s acceptable to expect the players and coaching team between them to manage the favourable situation they had got themselves into better than they did.
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I've only just seen the penalty shout and while we may not have deserved it, it's fucking unbelievable it wasn't given by the ref let alone the VAR clown. They really are making a huge fucking mess of VAR. Cardiff were on the wrong end of a number of very bad decisions last season and we seem to be the new whipping boys.
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I'm hearing from a reliable source certain players are getting a little frustrated with DS, one being Mcginn and his post match interview would confirm this.
Somehthing don't feel right
I’d be staggered if that was the case.
Where can I find the McGinn interview please?
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His comment about McGinn was a bit odd.
(Paraphrasing)
Interviewer: John McGinn says the team needs to be more streetwise
Smith: I think he's quite streetwise enough.
Eh? What does that mean? Sounds like something my dad would say when I was in trouble.
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McGinn "That is two weeks in a row that teams down to 10 men have affected us badly. We have addressed it in the dressing room.
"I don't know if it is a lack of belief or tiredness, which it shouldn't be. We should be creating the chances but we weren't.
"We showed we are dangerous and scored a good goal, concede one and then show it again. But we got deeper and deeper and you can't do that. It is game management. It has cost us dearly this season.
"When you force pressure on yourself you get punished. We need to capitalise when things go for us in the game.
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Just seen the blatant pen we were not given today Yet another referee who seems to have something against Aston Villa it seems .Jonathan Moss was the referee against Spurs in the League Cup when Helenius had his shorts pulled down by a spurs defender and Moss somehow played on. He was also the referee when we lost to Arsenal in the Cup final Ok i know we were awful that day but near the end of the game there was at least one blatant pen he never gave us
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The issues are there for all to see. If we can’t fix them then we’ll continue to get shafted, it’s not rocket science really.
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McGinn "That is two weeks in a row that teams down to 10 men have affected us badly. We have addressed it in the dressing room.
"I don't know if it is a lack of belief or tiredness, which it shouldn't be. We should be creating the chances but we weren't.
"We showed we are dangerous and scored a good goal, concede one and then show it again. But we got deeper and deeper and you can't do that. It is game management. It has cost us dearly this season.
"When you force pressure on yourself you get punished. We need to capitalise when things go for us in the game.
Blimey !!
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Thanks, both.
I’m not sure there is too much in that to say he is frustrated with Smith - more the result and performance. It’s a fairly honest assessment and, as mentioned above, I think there has to be a collective responsibility from both players and management staff.
That streetwise comment is odd though.
Still, I never think that too much should be read into managers or players post match comments. It is immediately after an event they have invested a lot of mental and physical effort into - responses are naturally going to be condition by the result and there has been no real time to analyse the game properly.
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All I'll say is I know someone who works indirectly for the club and thing's have apparently been a little odd since Palace.
And he's not known for bullshiting! (not even a football fan, so has no real interest in what goes on)
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All I'll say is I know someone who works indirectly for the club and thing's have apparently been a little odd since Palace.
And he not known for bullshiting!
Have to wait and see
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probably half the managers in the league are under threat.
we all want Dean to succeed, but I can not imagine the owners want us back in the championship.
Early days but we need to wake up, and tactically improve to the situation in front of us game by game.
that is down to the manager.
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All I'll say is I know someone who works indirectly for the club and thing's have apparently been a little odd since Palace.
And he's not known for bullshiting! (not even a football fan, so has no real interest in what goes on)
Oh here we fucking go.
*kisses teeth*
Not a football fan, yet knows intimate goings on at VP and how those things are 'a little odd'.
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I know a couple of people who don't like football and they told me Jack Grealish murdered a badger.
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Crikey that's a stick on handball.
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We have heard previous managers say that the players were dropping to deep and we were penned in I did not expect to hear DS say the same, it is a tame excuse he is in charge of team structure and if certain players are not following instructions then they should be subbed. For me Wesley as big as he is needs to be close in to score and the only player that seems to be able to get to the by line to cross the ball is Grealish. The temperature is rising the stakes even at this early stage are getting higher for me we have the players but the structure and game plan are simply wrong.
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Keep playing like today and we will be fine. Stop panicking.
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Crikey that's a stick on handball.
Just seen it. Unbelievable.
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McGinn "That is two weeks in a row that teams down to 10 men have affected us badly. We have addressed it in the dressing room.
"I don't know if it is a lack of belief or tiredness, which it shouldn't be. We should be creating the chances but we weren't.
"We showed we are dangerous and scored a good goal, concede one and then show it again. But we got deeper and deeper and you can't do that. It is game management. It has cost us dearly this season.
"When you force pressure on yourself you get punished. We need to capitalise when things go for us in the game.
He’s absolutely spot on.
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Firstly the positives. We played well I thought until we started to sit back. Wesley got himself another goal which will do his confidence the world of good. It's a game we should never have lost though and wouldn't have done had we not conceded the penalty and got given a penalty ourselves. We need to do better though and Smith needs to be a bit more cleverer with his decision making and I think it will come in time.
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I'm hearing from a reliable source certain players are getting a little frustrated with DS, one being Mcginn and his post match interview would confirm this.
Somehthing don't feel right
Interesting that you didn't post anything about it until you heard McGinn's interview. Just saying.
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I'm hearing from a reliable source certain players are getting a little frustrated with DS, one being Mcginn and his post match interview would confirm this.
Somehthing don't feel right
I'm hearing from a reliable sauce, I won't mention his name but his initials are HP that the fickle are well and truly out early this season.
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Keep playing like today and we will be fine. Stop panicking.
Well no we won’t, because we’ll keep conceding late on in games if we do. We can be alright, but we need to stop doing what we did in the last 20 mins today.
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Crikey that's a stick on handball.
Just seen it. Unbelievable.
An absolute stonewaller. We have been our own worst enemies at times this season but we've also had some shocking decisions go against us that have certainly caused us to lose points.
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Yet it's not something VAR overturns. They're too busy making sure a striker's individual leg hairs are all onside.
It's a farce. Use it properly, or scrap it.
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I'm hearing from a reliable source certain players are getting a little frustrated with DS, one being Mcginn and his post match interview would confirm this.
Somehthing don't feel right
Interesting that you didn't post anything about it until you heard McGinn's interview. Just saying.
I didn't think much of it to be honest then seen the interview and thought maybe there is something up and a few unhappy chaps.
Only time will tell
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ù
Yet it's not something VAR overturns. They're too busy making sure a striker's individual leg hairs are all onside.
It's a farce. Use it properly, or scrap it.
Var can't tell the ref that he's missed a clear handball? I thought that was the whole point of it. To help the ref when he's made a clear and obvious error. So thats two trips to London and we've twice been on the end of shocking decisions that have cost us dearly. Seems obvious to me that the cockneys are getting to the var judges! Seriously though if we had got the right decision in both cases we could have two great away points under our belt and we would be feeling quite happy with Dean Smith & co.
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All I'll say is I know someone who works indirectly for the club and thing's have apparently been a little odd since Palace.
And he's not known for bullshiting! (not even a football fan, so has no real interest in what goes on)
This.
This is the sort of things that kills clubs. The polite way of describing it in journalism is 'unattributed sources', in other industries it's called 'market sentiment' and in still others a 'whispering campaign' but what it really is is idle gossip. It's pure speculation because it has no substance but nevertheless purports to be real. It never is.
Shit-stirring is what my granny used to call it out as, and she was right.
It's attention-seeking behaviour which has the unfortunate side-effect of pitting one viewpoint or faction in a club against another; it's destructive, corrosive and effective. My question is; 'Why would someone who supposedly supports the club shit-stir against the manager like this?' and I have no good answer for that. No good answer at all.
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Tyrone Mings.
We were good at times but it feels like when we go ahead there is desperation to hold onto the lead rather than going and getting another goal and really being ruthless.
“I don’t know what it is at the moment but something needs to change, especially when we go either ahead or have a man advantage. It seems to have the opposite effect.
“I don’t know what it is at the moment but something needs to change. Maybe it’s a mentality thing. Maybe we need to work on certain things. We’re professional footballers who have played in the Premier League.”
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I'm hearing from a reliable source certain players are getting a little frustrated with DS, one being Mcginn and his post match interview would confirm this.
Somehthing don't feel right
Interesting that you didn't post anything about it until you heard McGinn's interview. Just saying.
I didn't think much of it to be honest then seen the interview and thought maybe there is something up and a few unhappy chaps.
Only time will tell
In a way, I'm glad they're unhappy. Why should they be happy after losing 4 out of 6, and not getting the rub of the green on a number of important occasions?
They'll come roaring back!
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All I'll say is I know someone who works indirectly for the club and thing's have apparently been a little odd since Palace.
And he's not known for bullshiting! (not even a football fan, so has no real interest in what goes on)
This.
This is the sort of things that kills clubs. The polite way of describing it in journalism is 'unattributed sources', in other industries it's called 'market sentiment' and in still others a 'whispering campaign' but what it really is is idle gossip. It's pure speculation because it has no substance but nevertheless purports to be real. It never is.
Shit-stirring is what my granny used to call it out as, and she was right.
It's attention-seeking behaviour which has the unfortunate side-effect of pitting one viewpoint or faction in a club against another; it's destructive, corrosive and effective. My question is; 'Why would someone who supposedly supports the club shit-stir against the manager like this?' and I have no good answer for that. No good answer at all.
I know where you're coming from and agree to a point however there are several scenarios here. Yes, it could be/may well be shit stirring or it could be a genuine comment and the poster is protecting their source or the poster is themselves believing the source but is being conned.
Who knows?
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Yes, it could be/may well be shit stirring or it could be a genuine comment and the poster is protecting their source or the poster is themselves believing the source but is being conned.
Yes. Direct shit-stirrer or credulous shit-spreader are the possibilities :)
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clubs can go into a death spiral very quickly once a rot starts - Huddersfield being a prime example, one win in 2019. If we lose both games this week, then there is an argument that the spiral has started.
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clubs can go into a death spiral very quickly once a rot starts - Huddersfield being a prime example, one win in 2019. If we lose both games this week, then there is an argument that the spiral has started.
Hurrah! You are Fraser from Dad's Army and I claim my £5 ...
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Kin ell it’s not that bad. We’ve just lost 3-2 away at Arsenal in a game we should’ve won. We are all frustrated but let’s not talk death spirals just yet.
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I don't know whether things between Smith and the players are right or not, but I thought his comments about why he left Luiz out were a bit concerning (words to the effect that he's got plenty of other midfielders so decided to leave him out)
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I'm not affliated to Dad's Army but I have every right to express an opinion.
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ù
Yet it's not something VAR overturns. They're too busy making sure a striker's individual leg hairs are all onside.
It's a farce. Use it properly, or scrap it.
Var can't tell the ref that he's missed a clear handball? I thought that was the whole point of it. To help the ref when he's made a clear and obvious error.
It should be. By the words of the guidance given on VAR, that should have been corrected.
How it's actually used it as a big circular pat on the back. Referees reviewing referees, and telling each other that they're doing a great job. It's a massive waste of time when it's just being used to cover each others arses.
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You have permission to speak sir. Just don’t talk bollocks.
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Member of the catering staff, perhaps?
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I don't know whether things between Smith and the players are right or not, but I thought his comments about why he left Luiz out were a bit concerning (words to the effect that he's got plenty of other midfielders so decided to leave him out)
Think he was just stating he wanted two defenders, two midfields and two attacking players on the bench which I think is fairly reasonable. Luiz not being one of the two was the wrong call though.
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hi
Member of the catering staff, perhaps?
Close
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Disappointed with losing the game when it was there for the taking we should have kept on doing what we were doing attacking them they look troubled when we went at them I'm not one for having a go at the players or manager we will improve I'm positive we will be Ok this season.
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Cardiff were the victims of some awful decisions last season and it seems we have replaced them this season.In the 6 games so far we have had Aitkinson fail to send Billings of Bournemouth off,that idiot Friend rob us of a goal among other bad decisions and now another idiot Moss rob us of a blatant penalty
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we seem to have had this soft underbelly for years, no manager has been able to get on top of it
different players different managers yet we blow it more often than not
remember all those time against Man Utd
it is a about belief and confidence which we seem to need at the moment
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Cardiff were the victims of some awful decisions last season and it seems we have replaced them this season.In the 6 games so far we have had Aitkinson fail to send Billings of Bournemouth off,that idiot Friend rob us of a goal among other bad decisions and now another idiot Moss rob us of a blatant penalty
Equally we've had two players sent off against us and a good few opposition penalty shouts turned down.
I'm not saying it all balances out and a couple of the decisions against us have been truly awful, but it's not all one way.
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Cardiff were the victims of some awful decisions last season and it seems we have replaced them this season.In the 6 games so far we have had Aitkinson fail to send Billings of Bournemouth off,that idiot Friend rob us of a goal among other bad decisions and now another idiot Moss rob us of a blatant penalty
Equally we've had two players sent off against us and a good few opposition penalty shouts turned down.
I'm not saying it all balances out and a couple of the decisions against us have been truly awful, but it's not all one way.
Agreed.
I would say as many decisions went 'for us' as 'against us' yesterday.
We lost that game through poor decisions. Our own, rather than the officials, in my opinion.
Poor teams thrive on the 'woah is me' mentality. Good teams don't need to.
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I thought John Moss was very good yesterday. Couple of marginal decisions in favour/against both teams but overall it was good performance by the officials.
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It would have been very helpful if he'd have spotted the obvious handball. You can always tell by players reactions, it wasnt just the away end that appealed.
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Cardiff were the victims of some awful decisions last season and it seems we have replaced them this season.In the 6 games so far we have had Aitkinson fail to send Billings of Bournemouth off,that idiot Friend rob us of a goal among other bad decisions and now another idiot Moss rob us of a blatant penalty
Equally we've had two players sent off against us and a good few opposition penalty shouts turned down.
I'm not saying it all balances out and a couple of the decisions against us have been truly awful, but it's not all one way.
Agreed.
I would say as many decisions went 'for us' as 'against us' yesterday.
We lost that game through poor decisions. Our own, rather than the officials, in my opinion.
Poor teams thrive on the 'woah is me' mentality. Good teams don't need to.
Hold your horses.
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Not just the penalty decision;their winning free kick illegally had an Arsenal player in our wall. Should have been disallowed.
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I thought John Moss was very good yesterday. Couple of marginal decisions in favour/against both teams but overall it was good performance by the officials.
Don't go coming on here being all reasonable and rational, Aftab.
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Did not go or have watched the game, but according to Lee Hendrie, Wesley played well in the first half, did not hear his comments about the rest of the game.
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I think we're clutching at straws to blame the officials yesterday. The penalty would have been harsh as he was moving his arm into his body. Also, I don't think they had a player in our wall, looking at the shots from in front and behind. Nobody to blame but ourselves and if he didn't want to start with 2 holding midfielders, he almost certainly should have changed it when we began to drop deeper.
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I don't think many are blaming him for the defeat. Even if we had been 4-0 up or 4-0 down, it's a penalty.
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From what McGinn said the players and coaches had a full and frank exchange of views in the dressing room. Which is exactly what you would expect a strong dressing room to do after turning a victory into a defeat against ten men.
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Can someone please update me about Doug's absence.
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Correct me if i am wrong,but i thought the new rules state that if the ball hits the arm or hand it is a penalty weather it is intentional or not
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Can someone please update me about Doug's absence.
Smith chose not to put him in the Squad yet brought him on aginst West Ham
If you're going to go defensive every time after 60 mins why bother having hourihane and lansbury on the bench?
It's all very strange
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This thread is so disheartening to read. I can't believe some are talking about Smith possibly needing to go.
I'm not one of those eternally and unreasonably positive people, but I thought we played really well at times yesterday, more than matching a team who will have top 6 ambitions. I really enjoyed some of the football we played at times - little things like Arsenal trying to clear the ball but it coming back to a Villa shirt and us recycling it and probing again. I'm not used to seeing that from Villa at all and I loved it.
Individual mistakes cost us the goals as many have pointed out. That is something that can and most likely will be coached.
Many said they would take 17th this year, even if the squad has the potential for more. I understand a lot of posts where probably written in the immediate, red-misted aftermath of the game but personally I feel that's the sort of thing that the media pick up on and start that inevitable slide to sacking the manager. And then we're back to upheaval and squad re-building. That way probably does lead to relegation. Respectfully, we the fans definitely have a part to play.
Anyway, enough soppyness. We should have won and it's gutting to think on it today.
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Correct me if i am wrong,but i thought the new rules state that if the ball hits the arm or hand it is a penalty weather it is intentional or not
That's if its an attacking player handling the ball and it leads to a goal.
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I think we're clutching at straws to blame the officials yesterday. The penalty would have been harsh as he was moving his arm into his body. Also, I don't think they had a player in our wall, looking at the shots from in front and behind. Nobody to blame but ourselves and if he didn't want to start with 2 holding midfielders, he almost certainly should have changed it when we began to drop deeper.
(https://i.ibb.co/0rnDknj/Screenshot-20190923-134355-Samsung-Internet.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0rnDknj)
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From what McGinn said the players and coaches had a full and frank exchange of views in the dressing room. Which is exactly what you would expect a strong dressing room to do after turning a victory into a defeat against ten men.
Exactly. There is a collective responsibility. Thought we actually started the second half well, so it clearly wasn’t the intention to drop deep and soak up pressure. The players are partly culpable for the fact that happened and also then not having enough composure and quality on the ball that lead to us giving it away cheaply.
The coaching staff needed to react quicker to change things once this had started to happen and the momentum was shifting.
Hopefully it something they learn from quickly and work to ensure it doesn’t happen going forward.
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I won't be calling for Smiths head unless we get relegated and are then in the bottom half of the championship this time next year after 8-10 games. He got us up, after only coming in 7 months before and he's bought some good players this summer for relatively small fees. He just needs to make it gel. I am worried though.
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From what McGinn said the players and coaches had a full and frank exchange of views in the dressing room. Which is exactly what you would expect a strong dressing room to do after turning a victory into a defeat against ten men.
Exactly. There is a collective responsibility. Thought we actually started the second half well, so it clearly wasn’t the intention to drop deep and soak up pressure. The players are partly culpable for the fact that happened and also then not having enough composure and quality on the ball that lead to us giving it away cheaply.
The coaching staff needed to react quicker to change things once this had started to happen and the momentum was shifting.
Hopefully it something they learn from quickly and work to ensure it doesn’t happen going forward.
This is good news and a massive positive and not a negative thing some have tried to spin concerning McGinn's comments yesterday. We have some really good characters and strong personalities and by the sounds of it winners. McGinn and Jack were brilliant yesterday but needed more help as the second half went on. Arsenal started to dominate the midfield and the pressure just built which helped lead to the errors.
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Did not go or have watched the game, but according to Lee Hendrie, Wesley played well in the first half, did not hear his comments about the rest of the game.
He looks a bit half arsed to me (Wesley not Hendrie) for his size I don't think he gets himself stuck in, A couple of times he went up for crosses his feet hardly left the ground.
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Oh, and another thing, noticed Sideshow Bob MkII waving an imaginary card after he'd been brought down for the penalty. I thought players that did that now were supposed to receive said card?
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I have now read on a couple of websites that the Arsenal winning goal from the free kick should not have stood .Sounds to me that Moss and his assistants do not even know the rules .As far as i am concerned Villa are just not getting a fair deal from the match officials at the moment
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The thing that continues to worry me is that Smith reacts slowly to make substitutions.
Anyone could see after 70 mintes we'd run out of steam and were inviting too much pressure.
Both wingers and the centre forward should've come off for Davis, Conor and Lansbury at that point to give us more of a chance to keep the ball.
I'm surprised that it took us to be behind before he reacted, given that he's this great tactical coach.
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I have now read on a couple of websites that the Arsenal winning goal from the free kick should not have stood .Sounds to me that Moss and his assistants do not even know the rules .As far as i am concerned Villa are just not getting a fair deal from the match officials at the moment
See earlier post
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I think we're clutching at straws to blame the officials yesterday. The penalty would have been harsh as he was moving his arm into his body. Also, I don't think they had a player in our wall, looking at the shots from in front and behind. Nobody to blame but ourselves and if he didn't want to start with 2 holding midfielders, he almost certainly should have changed it when we began to drop deeper.
(https://i.ibb.co/0rnDknj/Screenshot-20190923-134355-Samsung-Internet.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0rnDknj)
While I agree that we were at blame for letting Arsenal back into the game, it doesn't excuse the fact that rules were broken.
What actually happened was that Calum chambers was standing just behind our wall and then just blatantly shove's Marvellous out of the wall.
The ball seems to go in the exact place Marvellous was standing. The only person that sees this is Ming's who appeals but nothing is looked at. I don't blame the Ref for not spotting it as I didn't either but isint that why we have VAR?
The penalty would have been harsh but going on the current rules I believe its supposed to be given as one. I don't agree with the current rules on handball but that's how there are seen at the moment.
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Yep there were a couple of decisions but Smith had allowed all the momentum to shift to Arsenal by standing and watching us get torn apart by 10 men from 70 minutes on.
The responsibility for this defeat is with Smith and his failure to acknowledge his culpability is disappointing.
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We went in front, we lost a lead and lost a game in the last 10 minutes that we should have won. It is what Villa do. No need to panic.
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I thought we played very well until the pen and equaliser and then sadly after those moments we did not and let them back into a game that should of been out of their reach.
UTV
The Doc
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Ten men put three goals past us. A poor Arsenal side at that. A few of our players were out on their feet by 70 mins and Dean couldn't see what every single Villa fan saw (well on these pages anyway) which were to throw on the subs to prevent the now inevitable collapse. But the one thing I took from yesterday was the refereeing. We left behind a league notorious for bad refereeing but it had nothing on what we've had to endure since the start of the season. We dont do ourselves any favours but a penalty shout at the Emirates late on? It's never gonna be given. Not the first time we've fallen victim to rank bad decisions and unfortunately it won't be the last.
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I think we're clutching at straws to blame the officials yesterday. The penalty would have been harsh as he was moving his arm into his body. Also, I don't think they had a player in our wall, looking at the shots from in front and behind. Nobody to blame but ourselves and if he didn't want to start with 2 holding midfielders, he almost certainly should have changed it when we began to drop deeper.
(https://i.ibb.co/0rnDknj/Screenshot-20190923-134355-Samsung-Internet.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0rnDknj)
The way I look at it, Jack, SJM & Marvelous were not part of the wall (which consisted of 4 players)
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The responsibility for this defeat is with Smith and his failure to acknowledge his culpability is disappointing.
I know the successful ones don't get it wrong very often, but when they do... do they often come out and hold there hands up?
e.g. Ferguson blamed grey kits once upon a time. Just for a laugh I typed in football manager "I got it wrong" into a search engine. The three articles that came up were from Craig Levein, Tony Pulis and Potatoe head.
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I think we're clutching at straws to blame the officials yesterday. The penalty would have been harsh as he was moving his arm into his body. Also, I don't think they had a player in our wall, looking at the shots from in front and behind. Nobody to blame but ourselves and if he didn't want to start with 2 holding midfielders, he almost certainly should have changed it when we began to drop deeper.
(https://i.ibb.co/0rnDknj/Screenshot-20190923-134355-Samsung-Internet.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0rnDknj)
The way I look at it, Jack, SJM & Marvelous were not part of the wall (which consisted of 4 players)
I suggest you dig a bit deeper, can't post other images but there is an Arsenal player behind the wall.
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I think we're clutching at straws to blame the officials yesterday. The penalty would have been harsh as he was moving his arm into his body. Also, I don't think they had a player in our wall, looking at the shots from in front and behind. Nobody to blame but ourselves and if he didn't want to start with 2 holding midfielders, he almost certainly should have changed it when we began to drop deeper.
(https://i.ibb.co/0rnDknj/Screenshot-20190923-134355-Samsung-Internet.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0rnDknj)
The way I look at it, Jack, SJM & Marvelous were not part of the wall (which consisted of 4 players)
Then thats the way you want to look at it. But i don't know why when the image above proves otherwise. You also said you don't think it was a pen. Every commentator i've heard disagrees with you. I mean even that Villa hating scrote Danny Murphy said on MOTD "the most clear cut penalty you will ever see" Again you look at it differently to everyone else including neutrals. I'm sure you have your reasons.
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I thought John Moss was very good yesterday. Couple of marginal decisions in favour/against both teams but overall it was good performance by the officials.
Don't go coming on here being all reasonable and rational, Aftab.
Sorry mate not sure what came over me...may be it was tiredness as I didn’t get hone till 1am last night😊
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I havent seen the handball back since yesterday but at the time I didnt think it was a blatant penalty. The incident was nowhere near as cut and dry as the Palace one, were my over riding emotion after that match was that we had been robbed by an appauling decision, my over riding emotion yesterday was that we threw it away by not making the tactical changes needed which in turn lead to stupid individual errors.
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I thought John Moss was very good yesterday. Couple of marginal decisions in favour/against both teams but overall it was good performance by the officials.
Second yellow for Maitland Niles was very harsh I thought. Masuaku's second yellow last week was a nonsense. Two big decisions that went in our favour that should have resulted in six points.
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I think we're clutching at straws to blame the officials yesterday. The penalty would have been harsh as he was moving his arm into his body. Also, I don't think they had a player in our wall, looking at the shots from in front and behind. Nobody to blame but ourselves and if he didn't want to start with 2 holding midfielders, he almost certainly should have changed it when we began to drop deeper.
[img width= height= alt=Screenshot-20190923-134355-Samsung-Internet" border="0]https://i.ibb.co/0rnDknj/Screenshot-20190923-134355-Samsung-Internet.jpg[/img] (https://ibb.co/0rnDknj)
The way I look at it, Jack, SJM & Marvelous were not part of the wall (which consisted of 4 players)
I suggest you dig a bit deeper, can't post other images but there is an Arsenal player behind the wall.
I;ve seen the images on one of the Villa FB pages this morning. The player behind the wall doesn't interfere with it.
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I think we're clutching at straws to blame the officials yesterday. The penalty would have been harsh as he was moving his arm into his body. Also, I don't think they had a player in our wall, looking at the shots from in front and behind. Nobody to blame but ourselves and if he didn't want to start with 2 holding midfielders, he almost certainly should have changed it when we began to drop deeper.
(https://i.ibb.co/0rnDknj/Screenshot-20190923-134355-Samsung-Internet.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0rnDknj)
The way I look at it, Jack, SJM & Marvelous were not part of the wall (which consisted of 4 players)
I suggest you dig a bit deeper, can't post other images but there is an Arsenal player behind the wall.
I;ve seen the images on one of the Villa FB pages this morning. The player behind the wall doesn't interfere with it.
He doesn’t have to. Any opposition player within 1 metre of the wall of 3 or more players should be penalised by the award of an indirect free kick to the defending team.
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If Alan Shearer and even Danny Murphy say it should have been a penalty,then thats good enough for me
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I think we're clutching at straws to blame the officials yesterday. The penalty would have been harsh as he was moving his arm into his body. Also, I don't think they had a player in our wall, looking at the shots from in front and behind. Nobody to blame but ourselves and if he didn't want to start with 2 holding midfielders, he almost certainly should have changed it when we began to drop deeper.
(https://i.ibb.co/0rnDknj/Screenshot-20190923-134355-Samsung-Internet.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0rnDknj)
The way I look at it, Jack, SJM & Marvelous were not part of the wall (which consisted of 4 players)
Then thats the way you want to look at it. But i don't know why when the image above proves otherwise. You also said you don't think it was a pen. Every commentator i've heard disagrees with you. I mean even that Villa hating scrote Danny Murphy said on MOTD "the most clear cut penalty you will ever see" Again you look at it differently to everyone else including neutrals. I'm sure you have your reasons.
The image proves nothing. Watching the clip, there is a gap between the wall and the 3 players. I see that as the 3 players not being part of the wall.
Regarding the handball, I see it as ball to hand/arm and the player seemed to be bringing his arm into his body. It would have been very harsh and didn't appear to be intentional to me. I liken it to the Snodgrass handball against Neves when we beat Wolves 4-1. None of us were claiming that one was a penalty although it was more of a shout than yesterdays.
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I think we're clutching at straws to blame the officials yesterday. The penalty would have been harsh as he was moving his arm into his body. Also, I don't think they had a player in our wall, looking at the shots from in front and behind. Nobody to blame but ourselves and if he didn't want to start with 2 holding midfielders, he almost certainly should have changed it when we began to drop deeper.
(https://i.ibb.co/0rnDknj/Screenshot-20190923-134355-Samsung-Internet.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0rnDknj)
The way I look at it, Jack, SJM & Marvelous were not part of the wall (which consisted of 4 players)
I suggest you dig a bit deeper, can't post other images but there is an Arsenal player behind the wall.
I;ve seen the images on one of the Villa FB pages this morning. The player behind the wall doesn't interfere with it.
He doesn’t have to. Any opposition player within 1 metre of the wall of 3 or more players should be penalised by the award of an indirect free kick to the defending team.
Again, he appears to be behind the 3, not the wall. If the ref didn't see it then it's up to Villa's players to ask for a VAR review.
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Lack of game management is very worrying especially against 10 men when leading on two occasions. I do wonder how long the owners will tolerate this sort of thing.
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I think we're clutching at straws to blame the officials yesterday. The penalty would have been harsh as he was moving his arm into his body. Also, I don't think they had a player in our wall, looking at the shots from in front and behind. Nobody to blame but ourselves and if he didn't want to start with 2 holding midfielders, he almost certainly should have changed it when we began to drop deeper.
(https://i.ibb.co/0rnDknj/Screenshot-20190923-134355-Samsung-Internet.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0rnDknj)
The way I look at it, Jack, SJM & Marvelous were not part of the wall (which consisted of 4 players)
I suggest you dig a bit deeper, can't post other images but there is an Arsenal player behind the wall.
I;ve seen the images on one of the Villa FB pages this morning. The player behind the wall doesn't interfere with it.
He doesn’t have to. Any opposition player within 1 metre of the wall of 3 or more players should be penalised by the award of an indirect free kick to the defending team.
Again, he appears to be behind the 3, not the wall. If the ref didn't see it then it's up to Villa's players to ask for a VAR review.
I'm not that bothered if hes in wall or not he fouled Marvellous. When was it down to the players to make sure if a decision is correct or not?
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I think we're clutching at straws to blame the officials yesterday. The penalty would have been harsh as he was moving his arm into his body. Also, I don't think they had a player in our wall, looking at the shots from in front and behind. Nobody to blame but ourselves and if he didn't want to start with 2 holding midfielders, he almost certainly should have changed it when we began to drop deeper.
(https://i.ibb.co/0rnDknj/Screenshot-20190923-134355-Samsung-Internet.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0rnDknj)
The way I look at it, Jack, SJM & Marvelous were not part of the wall (which consisted of 4 players)
Then thats the way you want to look at it. But i don't know why when the image above proves otherwise. You also said you don't think it was a pen. Every commentator i've heard disagrees with you. I mean even that Villa hating scrote Danny Murphy said on MOTD "the most clear cut penalty you will ever see" Again you look at it differently to everyone else including neutrals. I'm sure you have your reasons.
The image proves nothing. Watching the clip, there is a gap between the wall and the 3 players. I see that as the 3 players not being part of the wall.
Regarding the handball, I see it as ball to hand/arm and the player seemed to be bringing his arm into his body. It would have been very harsh and didn't appear to be intentional to me. I liken it to the Snodgrass handball against Neves when we beat Wolves 4-1. None of us were claiming that one was a penalty although it was more of a shout than yesterdays.
The wall was amateurish and uneven. But it was a wall. The Arsenal player was within 1 metre of our wall. Clear infringement. The officials missed it. The handball was clear.I don't know why your in denial about it but it was a clear handball. My god even Shearer and Murphy agreed it was a blatant penalty. Your wrong on both decisions.We have other issues to sort out like giving away stupid goals but thats a seperate issue.
Edit# i have just had chance to sit down and watch the re-run of the game. Please watch the free kick again. Freeze the picture and remember the rule states that opposition players must not be within 1 metre of the defensive wall. The penalty for breaching this rule is an indirect free kick to the defending team. (I'll give you a clue. There are THREE Arsenal players to look out for) and the one sneaking around the back pushes Nkamba just for good measure.
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I thought John Moss was very good yesterday. Couple of marginal decisions in favour/against both teams but overall it was good performance by the officials.
Second yellow for Maitland Niles was very harsh I thought. Masuaku's second yellow last week was a nonsense. Two big decisions that went in our favour that should have resulted in six points.
It was nonesense, it should have been a straight red.
Jesus.
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I havent seen the handball back since yesterday but at the time I didnt think it was a blatant penalty. The incident was nowhere near as cut and dry as the Palace one, were my over riding emotion after that match was that we had been robbed by an appauling decision, my over riding emotion yesterday was that we threw it away by not making the tactical changes needed which in turn lead to stupid individual errors.
Pretty much sums me up too. I was upset yesterday but incandescent after Palace.
Though all 3 goals were from mistakes / poor defending. And our shooting is pretty tame too, notably Trezeguet when it was still 2-1 I think.
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Sorry to keep bringing up mistakes and VAR, but another issue that I don't think has been mentioned is that when Arsenal took the penalty Aubameyang is clearly in the box.
I'm not saying that they wouldn't have scored, but if were going to use VAR for the minutest of offside decisions why are the obvious errors not being corrected.
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Sorry to keep bringing up mistakes and VAR, but another issue that I don't think has been mentioned is that when Arsenal took the penalty Aubameyang is clearly in the box.
I'm not saying that they wouldn't have scored, but if were going to use VAR for the minutest of offside decisions why are the obvious errors not being corrected.
I might be miles off, but wasn't there recemtly a retaken penalty using VAR due to the keeper not standing on the goal line ?
UTV
The Doc
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Sorry to keep bringing up mistakes and VAR, but another issue that I don't think has been mentioned is that when Arsenal took the penalty Aubameyang is clearly in the box.
I'm not saying that they wouldn't have scored, but if were going to use VAR for the minutest of offside decisions why are the obvious errors not being corrected.
I might be miles off, but wasn't there recemtly a retaken penalty using VAR due to the keeper not standing on the goal line ?
UTV
The Doc
This was at the women's world cup (Scotland vs Argentina), but AFAIK, VAR will not be used for small decisions like that.
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The use of inflammatory language like ‘surrender’ in the title to this thread, stoking the divisions in our society, is disgusting. Somebody needs to resign or apologise.