Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: olaftab on August 20, 2019, 11:50:43 AM
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Just thinking about the racist abuse of Abraham, Meite and Pogba in the last few days I am not sure as to what is the best course of action? Whilst the Kickitout have demanded "immediate and the strongest possible action" I happen to think that these cowards thrive on publicity. I bet all the scum are interested in after posting is to see the media et al talk about their tweets. I think the best course would be to totally ignore them and therefore deny them the publicity they desire.
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Put your head in the sand and it might go away? My personal opinion is to out them publicly so the people they work for are all aware of the things their employees are doing, and / or the schools are as most of them are kids, and then prosecute the ones that can be.
All reports indicate racism in this country is on the rise so we need to do what we can to stop it.
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We can't ignore, it has to be addressed. I can't believe it's happening in this day and age and I really hope the police put some real effort into tracking down and prosecuting a few of these scumbags.
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I reported racist (and sexist) abuse of Alex Scott on Facebook the other day, by some ‘lad’ (incel type). Got a boiler plate response telling me it was in line with their guidelines, no action to be taken, with helpful guidance on how to block people. Facebook and Twitter are 100% part of the problem.
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Depressing.
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I think eradicating this kind of thing is a long-term, societal change.
All we can do, is continue to:
- Name and shame people who engage in racist abuse, making it clear that this behaviour is unacceptable
- Ban them from football, using excessively harsh punishments
- Speak to anyone you know with these kinds of views, try and understand where that comes from, and calmly try to discourage them
- Continuing to profile minority footballers in the media, sharing their stories
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I've reported various types of discrimination towards all backgrounds and from all backgrounds and have been mett with the same lazy response, like above
Unfortunately people think they can do/say as they like behind a screen. I posted an opinion on a football page and was told to "f*** off back to Iceland" lovely
One thing I do like is how inclusive villa are as a club, I love Aston and the interesting diversity of the area with VP at the heart of it. I've never heard any racism in the stadium and everyone is made to feel welcome.
There is only so much the clubs can do and these idiots might not even support the club of the players they are abusing, it's far too easy to set up a 'fake' account.
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As Nev and a few others touched on in the Tammy thread when you've got disgusting racist rhetoric coming from the likes of our current PM, (Trump), Farage and other parts of the media (Daily Mail, The Sun, katie hopkins etc) it legitimises (endorses) and actively encourages it.
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Give anyone the anonymity of shooting from afar and the cowards will take it. Social media is the oxygen for these scum.
I do not use any of it so a little uneducated in the workings of it all but surely the pieces of shit that abused Tammy can be recognised by the authorities?
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I reported racist (and sexist) abuse of Alex Scott on Facebook the other day, by some ‘lad’ (incel type). Got a boiler plate response telling me it was in line with their guidelines, no action to be taken, with helpful guidance on how to block people. Facebook and Twitter are 100% part of the problem.
Twitter are useless. I got a 12 hour ban for calling someone a useless wench (only in response to her calling someone a heartless wench). Them ignoring racsim does not surprise me in the slightest.
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Following on from last weeks abuse of Tammy one can only surmise that the bigots have indeed been emboldened. More than once on this site I have raised the point that opinion previously thought beyond the pale has been legitimised in our society and redressed as an "alternative point of view" rolling back years of progress in the way we talk to each other, how we treat each other and how we look ourselves and others. The last point is crucial, our personal responsibility for how we speak and act and how it affects others. The dreaded term "Political Correctness" has become an anathema for so many ills of society when the original intention was to make our lives and society more respectful and more polite. The kick back has resulted in transference of responsibility elsewhere "it's your fault if your offended", a misguided defence of free speech, one that never mentions consequences, appalling political discourse from all sides and ultimately an individual as risible as Boris Johnson leading our country.
Of course responsibility goes beyond the individual and encompasses those that, however unwittingly, provide a platform for abhorrent bigotry and abuse. Social media, for me at least, is broadcasting and if you broadcast in this country there are very strict rules on what you can and cannot say, while these rules are difficult to enforce they should form a basis for the likes of Twitter and Facebook.
Phil Neville has suggested that the football community boycott social media, something I don't think he has really thought through given the huge reliance on this form of communication from Sunday League to Premier League but something has to be done.
Boris Johnson would be banned from this site for his use of language, and while his position is up for debate as PM, if a site like this can root out the bigots there is no reason why the big social media companies can't. It's just a question of scale.
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The depressing thing for me is that one racist can, in a very short amount of time, spread his disgusting ideas and comments to millions of people who otherwise not have to hear it. They have more power to offend than they ever though possible, and they're loving it.
It's not a case of burying my head in the sand. I just hate the fact that a small minority of people have been given so much power. Welcome to the 21st century.
Having said that, is it really 'rocket science' to locate these idiots and prosecute them, if they're found to be in the UK?
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The fact social media companies are not treated as media companies or publishers appears to me at least to be a big part of the problem. Make Facebook, Twatter etc face up to usual laws on this in the UK and you have part of the solution.
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After someone posted a collage of the Pogba tweets last night, I had a look at the Usernames involved. All but one, seem to have sprung up from nowhere, posted their filth, then removed the accounts. So, what have we got here? A minority of copycat idiots or, something more sinister? It seems that it only takes half a dozen of these tweets to make national headlines.
Regardless of this latest outrage, a lot of what goes on on Twitter, is a cesspit of hate, lies, shit stirring and disgraceful discrimination.
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In recent decades, I had the reassuring impression that racism, xenophobia and similar 'othering' hatreds had been fading out like the woodbine-sucking, shabby rain-coated geezers who would give us younger fans the benefit of their sad, prejudiced 'wisdom' in my first days at Villa Park. I thought that the 21st Century had consigned fascism and knuckle-headed nationalism to the non-recyclable skip of history and - despite some portents like the Bush-Blair wars, Putin etc. - socially, things were progressing. Then came austerity and one of its natural consequences (as the powerful and privileged Right scrabbled around for a distraction project) that vote in 2016.
It's already been well aired in previous comments that Trump and De Pfeffer Johnson (only oiks call him 'Boris') have proved to be the gateway drugs to the 'let them eat chaos' social model that the US and UK have in an (un)planned future. Their hard-core followers have slithered from being saloon-bar SturmAbteilung to SM-SA - belching bile and bigotry on social media. Their pathetic racial and social prejudices and hatred is as much about sad displacement activities of their unfulfilled, repressed lives - typical of fascist/stalinist personality types. (And no, 'Tout comprendre est tout pardonner' - to understand the psychology of fascists and stalinists is not to forgive.)
Perhaps these dutiful poodles tethered and barking for the international Right (i.e.Orban, Bolsanaro, Putin, Salvini, Netanyahu, Mohdi, Farage, Murdoch et al) should remind themselves of the fate of Ernst Rohm SA and his 'Proud Boys' after they had done their dirtiest and the really bad bastards of the elite dispensed with them in 1934. (After patronising them, of course.)
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I've reported various types of discrimination towards all backgrounds and from all backgrounds and have been mett with the same lazy response, like above
Unfortunately people think they can do/say as they like behind a screen. I posted an opinion on a football page and was told to "f*** off back to Iceland" lovely
One thing I do like is how inclusive villa are as a club, I love Aston and the interesting diversity of the area with VP at the heart of it. I've never heard any racism in the stadium and everyone is made to feel welcome.
There is only so much the clubs can do and these idiots might not even support the club of the players they are abusing, it's far too easy to set up a 'fake' account.
I find it quite heartening that the demograph of our supporter base is slowly becoming more and more diverse (just my own observations ) On recent shopping trip to "One Stop" in Perry Barr which is a very multi-cultural place it was noticeable that there was quite a healthy number of Villa stuff being worn compared to the usual collection of Man U, Liverpool etc. And Tammy will never be appreciated by some of the "Farage" loving types at Chelsea. Bring him home.
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I was pleased on Twitter to see that a Baggies fan who tried to start the ‘Town full of P****’ chant at Luton was shouted down and reported by his fellow fans around him so that he was thrown out and hopefully will face further action to keep him away.
Fair play to those (especially the first) who spoke up. That’s what’s needed. EVERY TIME.
Every time these types of one of insults or chants are out there, there are people around them who know it’s wrong but don’t do anything. That has to stop now....there are enough ways to challenge it without putting yourself at risk.
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Incredibly depressing.
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My view is that the battle to beat racism is through education. Education in the home, education in schools, education in the workplace, education among friends, and suitable punishment for perpetrators with more education in the prison system. It's pie-in-the-sky on my part but I will firmly hold on to that belief until the day I die. It won't happen in my lifetime but I live in hope it will happen within the next century or so, after all it's only just over one hundred and fifty years that slavery was abolished in Britain and who, at the time would have thought that? We have to continue to stand up and be counted.
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When it's inside a ground good folk have to speak up and point the low life out, otherwise you're complicit in that racism. It's tricky online, I've reported a couple of things on Twitter, but these faceless, new accounts pop up all time. The way the social media companies wash their hands of all of this is disgraceful.
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I try no to be too black mirror about these things but I do feel social media is a scourge when it comes to issues like this, amplifying social problems, giving a platform to evil nut cases, then failing to properly moderate itself. You’ve got tech companies more powerful than nations driven entirely by the profit motive, growing so fast they are throwing up issues quicker than they can be dealt with.
I would love to think there will be more good folk speaking up at games and dealing with the morons, agree that is probably the answer. But I’m not too optimistic, based on my experiences at football grounds.
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I was pleased on Twitter to see that a Baggies fan who tried to start the ‘Town full of P****’ chant at Luton was shouted down and reported by his fellow fans around him so that he was thrown out and hopefully will face further action to keep him away.
Fair play to those (especially the first) who spoke up. That’s what’s needed. EVERY TIME.
Every time these types of one of insults or chants are out there, there are people around them who know it’s wrong but don’t do anything. That has to stop now....there are enough ways to challenge it without putting yourself at risk.
This. There are many fine posts on here some similar to this by amfy. I believe fellow fan action is the best and most effective medicine when it happens in the ground.
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I have spent the best part of 55 years standing up to racists and bigots, whether it be at school in Hall Green or Worcester and at work in Birmingham, Manchester,Liverpool, Bolton etc
I've delivered Humanitarian aid to Eastern Europe and witnessed terrible treatment of various ethnicities in Poland and Ukraine .
The ideologies of the far right are manifesting throughout the world ....we must all do our best to ensure that this and future generations do not accept racism as being tolerable or acceptable
On a trip to the US (prior to Trumps election ) I saw blatant racism displayed in Alabama and Tennessee - my hosts in both states were Afro American and I felt physically sick of the abuse directed towards them - KKK signs and other inappropriate flags were openly displayed, mainly in rural areas - that was pre Trump so I dread to think what things are like now ....
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The fact social media companies are not treated as media companies or publishers appears to me at least to be a big part of the problem. Make Facebook, Twatter etc face up to usual laws on this in the UK and you have part of the solution.
This is the key for me. They ARE publishers. I know that that 'disruptor' is now a supposedly a good thing to be in business (and I can see the value on some level, in certain sectors) but these 'platforms' have disrupted far more than publishing and, for the most part, it hasn't been for the better.
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The fact social media companies are not treated as media companies or publishers appears to me at least to be a big part of the problem. Make Facebook, Twatter etc face up to usual laws on this in the UK and you have part of the solution.
This is the key for me. They ARE publishers. I know that that 'disruptor' is now a supposedly a good thing to be in business (and I can see the value on some level, in certain sectors) but these 'platforms' have disrupted far more than publishing and, for the most part, it hasn't been for the better.
I know as the forum Lib Dem I should be taking the hummus eating, sandal wearing civil liberties, down with big govt and free speech line but we don’t have free speech in this country as it’s limited by statute. On this, these profiteering, data thieving ****** need to be bought to book.
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The fact social media companies are not treated as media companies or publishers appears to me at least to be a big part of the problem. Make Facebook, Twatter etc face up to usual laws on this in the UK and you have part of the solution.
This is the key for me. They ARE publishers. I know that that 'disruptor' is now a supposedly a good thing to be in business (and I can see the value on some level, in certain sectors) but these 'platforms' have disrupted far more than publishing and, for the most part, it hasn't been for the better.
I know as the forum Lib Dem I should be taking the hummus eating, sandal wearing civil liberties, down with big govt and free speech line but we don’t have free speech in this country as it’s limited by statute. On this, these profiteering, data thieving c***s need to be bought to book.
Yep. And to get back to the specific topic, they amplify a sliver of a minority of headcases to the extent that they cause real societal harm and hurt, at the same time giving worldwide platforms to similarly marginal figures that are lucky enough to be able to wear a pair of trousers the right way around and can source enough cocaine to keep them upright outside a courtroom for long enough to make a semi-literate speech.
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If you try to ignore it the only people taking notice will be the tweeters fellow racists. And then they will think they have permission to say anything they like, with support.
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Just seen a clip from Talksport where the presenters rattle on about how annoying it is when people pronounce foreign players names correctly instead of ‘how we do in this country’.
The conversation builds to a crèchendo of sniggering at foreign sounding names.
If this is the accepted standard of national sports journalism then is it any wonder we have a growing problem?
You do not have to pronounce in a foreign accent to pronounce correctly. I do not say Hourihane in an Irish accent but have now noted that he pronounces it as HOWrihane & so that’s how I now say it. The same applies across all nationalities. You cannot tell people how to pronounce THEIR OWN name on the basis that ‘You’re in England now!’
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"Hourihane" is pronounced "Hot Lips".
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Boris Johnson would be banned from this site for his use of language, and while his position is up for debate as PM, if a site like this can root out the bigots there is no reason why the big social media companies can't. It's just a question of scale.
I agree totally here. There's big sites with user-supplied content that manage to self-moderate - Wikipedia and Stackoverflow (computer programming website) spring to mind. Not having it that Facebook or Twitter aren't able to moderate themselves effectively.
As for the racists, others on here have stated my point of view better than I can. Respect to those who stand up to these racists and bigots.
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As much as I dislike Chelski, well done Tammy.
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I was pleased on Twitter to see that a Baggies fan who tried to start the ‘Town full of P****’ chant at Luton was shouted down and reported by his fellow fans around him so that he was thrown out and hopefully will face further action to keep him away.
Fair play to those (especially the first) who spoke up. That’s what’s needed. EVERY TIME.
Every time these types of one of insults or chants are out there, there are people around them who know it’s wrong but don’t do anything. That has to stop now....there are enough ways to challenge it without putting yourself at risk.
This. There are many fine posts on here some similar to this by amfy. I believe fellow fan action is the best and most effective medicine when it happens in the ground.
Appreciating the thoughtful posts on here and yes kudos to the first baggies fan that spoke up. It’s an encouraging minority influence that feels ripe for action in contrast to the minority/majority influence that risks getting activated.
The question is more challenging (going off topic) around homophobic comments/chants I’m sure there was still stuff I heard last season, though can’t remember what. I’d still love a rainbow Tommy Hitz banner at the ground - what’s the best way to action that?
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Appreciating the thoughtful posts on here and yes kudos to the first baggies fan that spoke up. It’s an encouraging minority influence that feels ripe for action in contrast to the minority/majority influence that risks getting activated.
The question is more challenging (going off topic) around homophobic comments/chants I’m sure there was still stuff I heard last season, though can’t remember what. I’d still love a rainbow Tommy Hitz banner at the ground - what’s the best way to action that?
I think that'd be a fantastic thing to do.
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Appreciating the thoughtful posts on here and yes kudos to the first baggies fan that spoke up. It’s an encouraging minority influence that feels ripe for action in contrast to the minority/majority influence that risks getting activated.
The question is more challenging (going off topic) around homophobic comments/chants I’m sure there was still stuff I heard last season, though can’t remember what. I’d still love a rainbow Tommy Hitz banner at the ground - what’s the best way to action that?
I think that'd be a fantastic thing to do.
Message the project b6 guys
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Appreciating the thoughtful posts on here and yes kudos to the first baggies fan that spoke up. It’s an encouraging minority influence that feels ripe for action in contrast to the minority/majority influence that risks getting activated.
The question is more challenging (going off topic) around homophobic comments/chants I’m sure there was still stuff I heard last season, though can’t remember what. I’d still love a rainbow Tommy Hitz banner at the ground - what’s the best way to action that?
Well you could make one yourself I suppose, but maybe try to get Hitz involved?
You could have a word with my mate Rob, who’s a designer and good mates with Hitz.
https://twitter.com/real_rob_warner
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Appreciating the thoughtful posts on here and yes kudos to the first baggies fan that spoke up. It’s an encouraging minority influence that feels ripe for action in contrast to the minority/majority influence that risks getting activated.
The question is more challenging (going off topic) around homophobic comments/chants I’m sure there was still stuff I heard last season, though can’t remember what. I’d still love a rainbow Tommy Hitz banner at the ground - what’s the best way to action that?
I think that'd be a fantastic thing to do.
Would be brilliant if this happened.
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Appreciating the thoughtful posts on here and yes kudos to the first baggies fan that spoke up. It’s an encouraging minority influence that feels ripe for action in contrast to the minority/majority influence that risks getting activated.
The question is more challenging (going off topic) around homophobic comments/chants I’m sure there was still stuff I heard last season, though can’t remember what. I’d still love a rainbow Tommy Hitz banner at the ground - what’s the best way to action that?
Well you could make one yourself I suppose, but maybe try to get Hitz involved?
You could have a word with my mate Rob, who’s a designer and good mates with Hitz.
https://twitter.com/real_rob_warner
Appreciating the responses. I wasn’t at the TV game immediately after the time Hitz came out, I flagged it up then, trying to remember/dig out what wording I suggested.
Probably some sort of ‘one of us’ message.
Will do Risso. I’ll What’s app you and maybe you could give Rob a heads up, sound like he could be the man!
Doing occasional mental health project work in Uganda, bizarrely I also think it’s about the best way to change stuff there, through footy here... now we are back the time feels right.
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No problem, I'll drop him a line and introduce him to you.
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A few years ago when I sat in the north stand upper, I got into an argument with a Villa fan (?) who kept going on about gas / Jews etc. I stood up told him to shut up and the stewards had a go at me & only two fans behind me argued my case. The idiot even said didn’t I applaud Boise at Spurs & his nazi salute. I told him very loudly I bloody didn’t. Next home game v Everton, which was a 3-3 draw, I walked in and people were laughing at me, & taking the piss, saying what my problem was.It put me off saying anything again. This was under MON so not that long ago. Hopefully today it would be different
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Sorry the game I mentioned was v Spurs around March time. Horrible day
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That’s sad to hear. I had a similar horrible experience at Spurs I’ve referenced too many times on here, when I broke after putting up with half a match of the nonsense from some young villa fans. The level of my anger no one dared challenge me, and they were shocked in fact couldn’t quite process the idea of singing about foreskins and auschwitz was racist.
It’s prety shocking you got that response so recently, mine was closer to the turn of the millennium. I’m pretty confident you’d get more support these days, I think post Brexit open season and resultant recent publicity has hopefully forced people to take a stand, plus ever consistent right noises from club, a post saville/#metoo/football abuse duty of care era that I think won’t reverse...
I also failed to stand up to it once in the Holte and have vowed never again on race. It’s homophoboa that I fear is still too often “just a laugh” and I fear I’d not get much support if I challenged, but probably will still challenge.
So far so good in my new ST seat in the lower Holte, the level of nonsense around isn’t too bad. The bloke behind who loudly shouted Mings or Engels *every* time either went to make a clearance against Bournemouth even toned it down marginally against Everton!
I’d even be tempted to give that feedback to Head of Stewarding and make sure they are briefing well.
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Since I relocated to the lower holte, about 5 seasons ago, I haven’t heard any racist comments. I wish at the time I had reported it to Villa and the attitude of the steward who wasn’t interested in what was said, but more concerned that I was stood up. I do worry for the first player who comes out.