Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: stevenavfc on October 27, 2018, 08:07:06 PM
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Just an observation really but a list of players deemed surplus/not good enough who have departed or gone out on loan who became reasonable players elsewhere.
Cahill, Albrighton, Bannan, both Gardners, Robinson, Elphich, Whittingham, Sinclair, Routledge, Lichaj, Gaye, Davis, Clarke, Amavi, Baker, Vertout.
None earth shattering but all improved away from Villa Park.
The reverse often happens to incoming players with the likes of Hogan, McCormack, Elphich, etc all arriving with glowing CV's who fail to reproduce their previous form. Are we just unlucky?
Can anyone make a list of the players that have improved with us just to make me feel a bit more positive?
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I think only Cahill, Albrighton, Davis and Gana are are correct on the first list.
The others were either no better or worse after then left Villa
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Lowton seems to have progressed. (Or maybe he's at the same level and it's Villa who continued to regress.)
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Cahill was the only real major fuck-up in that list as he looked class whenever he played for us, but pubehead preferred cloggers. Albrighton i thought a lot of, but he was so bad for so long i don't think you can criticise the club for a lack of perseverance. Sometimes players just need a move to find their feet.
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Steven Davis was another that could have made a major impact if he stayed. He’d shown a lot of promise and went on to be a regular premier league player at a time when we were struggling
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well he went to fulham and they sold him for a loss to rangers. yeah he had a lot of success in scotland but, y'know.... its scotland.
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I think the only player on that list who showed something elsewhere that he didn't at least hint at with us was Marc Albrighton. The rest are a mixture of players who anyone could see were going to make it (Cahill, Davis), a few who moved when we got relegated, one or two who moved to a level we've gone down to (Bannan, Gardner, C) and some who are playing in the same division as us but still not exactly setting the world on fire (Lichaj, Robinson).
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Albrighton was fantastic in 10/11. Scored 6-7 in the premier league and set up a similar number. Any young player does that now and he gets an England call up. Looked the best talent we'd produced since Gabby that year.
He struggled after through combination of injury, loss of confidence, constant change of managers and the bizzare belief from fans and the club he could pretty much replace Downing/Young along with N'zogbia.
I'd say players who've left us who've enhanced their reputations are actually a few from our infamous relegation squad. Gana, Amavi (called up to France and played in europa final last season) and Veretout (seen as one of the better Seria A midfielders).
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The obvious "opposite" player here is Benteke, who seems to have been twice the player for us to the one he has been for anybody else.
We still definitely seem to be losing this overall, in recent years. I supposed that's one of the reasons why we have collapsed from top six in the top flight to below midtable in this shitty league in less than a decade.
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Many of the individuals in the OP list emerged from our Academy, interestingly.
Jonathan Hogg has captained 'udders for the last 2 Premier League seasons and really didn't get much of a look-in with us.
Callum Robinson has just made the Irish squad … not necessarily moving him any further forward than where we are now.
Daniel Johnson has become a very accomplished second-tier player.
The question I'd ask is: if we'd had some decent coaches and a manager who valued bringing youth through from 2006 onwards, how many of the aforementioned players in the OP, and others listed, would have helped Villa push on to a regular top-4 position (as opposed to where we are right now)?
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Many of the individuals in the OP list emerged from our Academy, interestingly.
Jonathan Hogg has captained 'udders for the last 2 Premier League seasons and really didn't get much of a look-in with us.
Callum Robinson has just made the Irish squad … not necessarily moving him any further forward than where we are now.
Daniel Johnson has become a very accomplished second-tier player.
The question I'd ask is: if we'd had some decent coaches and a manager who valued bringing youth through from 2006 onwards, how many of the aforementioned players in the OP, and others listed, would have helped Villa push on to a regular top-4 position (as opposed to where we are right now)?
None of the ones mentioned, except Cahill and briefly Albrighton, have come remotely close to the top four. We let go players who weren't good enough for us then and if we hadn't gone backwards wouldn't be good enough for us now.
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I agree with Dave that only Cahill and Albrighton could be considered contenders for a top 4 team. A fair few others would have been more than decent squad players whereas we've bulked up our squad by buying £4-5m players (when that was a reasonable sum).
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There was a period at the start of 10/11 when Bannan and Albrighton looked like they we going to be brilliant together. If memory serves the goal away to Rapid Vienna and also a fantastic long ball-drive across the keeper at Craven Cottage were particular highlights. I had a feeling that despite everything that happened in August we'd be fine. Idiot.
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The obvious "opposite" player here is Benteke, who seems to have been twice the player for us to the one he has been for anybody else.
We still definitely seem to be losing this overall, in recent years. I supposed that's one of the reasons why we have collapsed from top six in the top flight to below midtable in this shitty league in less than a decade.
Was also add Downing to that. Our POTY by a mile in 10/11 (played a massive part in keeping us up) and I remember so many on here thinking Liverpool had got him on the cheap for 20m. He did little there, had a decent six months at West Ham before fading and now playing out his days with Boro in this division.
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Over the last few seasons, with the exception of Grealish, being young and having potential seems to be the criteria for being surplus to requirements.
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Were we not delighted with £20m for Downing or was that only a year after when he'd floundered at Liverpool?
I always thought there was a player in Albrighton who suffered from injuries/confidence. He's also improved the defensive side of his game a lot at Leicester, as a youngster for us he would often commit silly fouls but he always had a great in-swinging cross and an eye for a great through-ball and a fine shot. Lambert releasing him was another one of his punchable offences.
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I don't remember many people being that angry or sad that Albrighton was sold and i, like you, thought there was player in there. But after the initial breakthrough for whatever reason he just went to pot for a very long time. Player lose form sometime but his was a very deep and long term loss of form
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I for one was not happy with the treatment or transfer of Albrighton.
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Albrighton made a lot of bright cameos in his final few months as a Villa player but wasn't really given the chance to start. I was pretty disappointed when he left. He was never overly spectacular but he was effective. Make a yard of space and swing in a cross. He'd also work his nuts off. Given what came afterwards, there's little doubt we should have kept him.
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Wasnt it a wage thing, we werent prepared to offer what he wanted?
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Width was a dirty word with our Scottish managers. Width was to be supplied by the odd occasion a full back ventured into the opposition half. Result - where we are now.
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Westwood's been in a top ten side for the last couple of years.
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Enda Stevens
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Since we've been down here we've tended to sign a lot of "trophy" players imo. McCormack with his 20 + goals for Fulham, he must be good. Ditto that Scotty Hogan.
We sign them even though it's at odds with how we play, I have no idea what logic SB used if any when he signed Hogan and then kept the normal game of just lumping balls up to him.
McCormack was a little different as he was 29 and having "issues" off the pitch so really Fulham got his peak and we got the fall out.
I can understand taking punts on squad players for low money who could turn out to be stars (sort of the approach we took in the Lambert years) but considering the money we really need to be as sure as we can be the player will fit into our style of play if we're spending 10m + on them. That hasn't been the case down the years.
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Were we not delighted with £20m for Downing or was that only a year after when he'd floundered at Liverpool?
I always thought there was a player in Albrighton who suffered from injuries/confidence. He's also improved the defensive side of his game a lot at Leicester, as a youngster for us he would often commit silly fouls but he always had a great in-swinging cross and an eye for a great through-ball and a fine shot. Lambert releasing him was another one of his punchable offences.
Without digging up the thread loads at the time were wanting 30m + for him seeing as Liverpool had signed Carroll for that amount six months earlier.
Same as people saying 18m for Milner and Young was also too low. I tend to agree but ultimately Young was a year away from going on a free and I naively thought Ireland would add something different to our 11 so was a decent extra in the Milner deal.
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Wasnt it a wage thing, we werent prepared to offer what he wanted?
Not sure what he was on here but Leicester offered him 40k. Given the extreme cost cutting at the time he was released and him just being a squad player I imagine we didn't attempt to match that.
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Westwood's been in a top ten side for the last couple of years.
He's been a squad player, only became a regular starter when Defour got a bad injury. Lowton has been more impressive.
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Westwood's been in a top ten side for the last couple of years.
He's been a squad player, only became a regular starter when Defour got a bad injury. Lowton has been more impressive.
He's still doing better than he would've if he'd stayed here and continued absorbing abuse.
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Westwood's been in a top ten side for the last couple of years.
He's been a squad player, only became a regular starter when Defour got a bad injury. Lowton has been more impressive.
He's still doing better than he would've if he'd stayed here and continued absorbing abuse.
Yeah he's done alright in fairness but really Burnley have used him as we should've. Had him as a sub, then they started winning and he then fits into that and their style.
Too many of our lower league signings were thrown in way too early. Someone like Bennett (as much a contender for this thread as Westwood) should've been eased in gently as you could see he was miles out of his depth starting premier league games. Others like Westwood and Lowton showed potential at times but difficult to keep improving when the club has a losing culture running through it.
By the time we were relegated Westwood was too associated with losing Villa teams for it to work out in the championship.
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Ladies and gentlemen I present to you Mr Peter Crouch
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Westwood's been in a top ten side for the last couple of years.
He's been a squad player, only became a regular starter when Defour got a bad injury. Lowton has been more impressive.
He's still doing better than he would've if he'd stayed here and continued absorbing abuse.
Yeah he's done alright in fairness but really Burnley have used him as we should've. Had him as a sub, then they started winning and he then fits into that and their style.
Too many of our lower league signings were thrown in way too early. Someone like Bennett (as much a contender for this thread as Westwood) should've been eased in gently as you could see he was miles out of his depth starting premier league games. Others like Westwood and Lowton showed potential at times but difficult to keep improving when the club has a losing culture running through it.
By the time we were relegated Westwood was too associated with losing Villa teams for it to work out in the championship.
A fair assessment.
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Ladies and gentlemen I present to you Mr Peter Crouch
Good call. Dolly(?) was far too quick to get rid; and cheaply, IIRC
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And we could have got him for fourpence ha'penny when we had him watched at 17 playing for Dulwich Hamlet.
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Savo Milosovic, and please excuse the spelling.
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Curtis Davies is another that fits in both lists. Highly regarded at WBA (named in the PFA Championship Team of the Year for 2006–07). Struggled throughout his time at Villa before eventually resurrecting his career at Hull (voted as the Player of the Year 2014) and now at Derby.
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Most notorious of all Sasa Curcic from Bolton to Villa. Quoted as saying "the worst decision of my life." Later admitted drug use and wild partying in Birmingham. Good grief don't we pick 'em!
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I must admit letting Cahill and Albrighton go was a bad mistake.
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I think Albrighton has said his preference was to stay at Villa even on a lower salary. Not hard to believe given he's often been seen at our games since he's left.
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Any assessment of Albrighton should mention the fact that he had two or three throat operations while he was here, along with a few ankle issues.
Still, at least Lambo brought in Tonev as a replacement.
(Goes upstairs to stick a few more pins into Lambert voodoo doll...)
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As to players that improved at Villa Park, thought Ashley Young did and then struggled at yanited for years... Delph improved with us and isn’t pulling up trees at Citeh ... Andy Gray ... had his best years at VP,struggled at the dingles and the blue scouse.
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As to players that improved at Villa Park, thought Ashley Young did and then struggled at yanited for years... Delph improved with us and isn’t pulling up trees at Citeh ... Andy Gray ... had his best years at VP,struggled at the dingles and the blue scouse.
Andy Gray struggled at Everton? Not from what I recall.
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Lay off Sasa Curcic please. How many other clubs have a player go on to be a Las Vegas magician? Not many. Alan Brazil can turn a horse into a field and that's about it.
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Curtis Davies is another that fits in both lists. Highly regarded at WBA (named in the PFA Championship Team of the Year for 2006–07). Struggled throughout his time at Villa before eventually resurrecting his career at Hull (voted as the Player of the Year 2014) and now at Derby.
His best seasons have tended to come in the championship, always struggled in the premier league.
Mad to think we paid 10m for him. Come understand it in 2017 but this was 2007 when lower player weren't going for ridiculous fees unless we were signing them.
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whether the ones that got away were ever good enough or not the fact remains we never got very good upgrades on most of them or we wouldn't have kept falling back and back and back
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As to players that improved at Villa Park, thought Ashley Young did and then struggled at yanited for years... Delph improved with us and isn’t pulling up trees at Citeh ... Andy Gray ... had his best years at VP,struggled at the dingles and the blue scouse,
Andy Gray struggled at Everton? Not from what I recall.
His record wasn't all that good there was it? Not looked it up but something like 12 goals in 50 games as opposed to 55 (?) in 115 games for us? I know we bought him back from there and he wasn't a patch of his 76-78 self.
They bought Lineker and really went on from there, we bought back Gray and, well, were completely shit ...
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As to players that improved at Villa Park, thought Ashley Young did and then struggled at yanited for years... Delph improved with us and isn’t pulling up trees at Citeh ... Andy Gray ... had his best years at VP,struggled at the dingles and the blue scouse,
Andy Gray struggled at Everton? Not from what I recall.
His record wasn't all that good there was it? Not looked it up but something like 12 goals in 50 games as opposed to 55 (?) in 115 games for us? I know we bought him back from there and he wasn't a patch of his 76-78 self.
They bought Lineker and really went on from there, we bought back Gray and, well, were completely shit ...
He won the FA Cup, league and Cup-Winners Cup with Everton. Lineker was there a season and their supporters will tell you that he fucked up the team and cost them the double.
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i thought this was a thread about better with us than who he went on to play for? Not what did he win subsequently? If not fair enough.
Still think he was better with us first time around than with the blue scouse ... 😊
A lot of players go on to win more honours elsewhere , some I don’t think were better with the team they subsequently joined, like Bosnich. Some like Yorke I think developed and got better.
Matter of opinions.
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As to players that improved at Villa Park, thought Ashley Young did and then struggled at yanited for years... Delph improved with us and isn’t pulling up trees at Citeh ... Andy Gray ... had his best years at VP,struggled at the dingles and the blue scouse,
Andy Gray struggled at Everton? Not from what I recall.
His record wasn't all that good there was it? Not looked it up but something like 12 goals in 50 games as opposed to 55 (?) in 115 games for us? I know we bought him back from there and he wasn't a patch of his 76-78 self.
They bought Lineker and really went on from there, we bought back Gray and, well, were completely shit ...
He won the FA Cup, league and Cup-Winners Cup with Everton. Lineker was there a season and their supporters will tell you that he fucked up the team and cost them the double.
I've heard that from Everton fans too. However, if a striker wants to come here for a season and score 40 goals, I'd be inclined to shoulder any downside risks!