Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: sickbeggar on May 27, 2018, 11:09:51 PM
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As we currently wait to learn about the future of Bruce, and also the financial situation to become clearer next season, I was wondering how many on here would be happy with us going with 5 or 6 youth players replacing the departures this summer?
Bruce didn't really play them and i understood why. Youth players are consistently inconsistent and most experience a drop in form more than once after they initially break through. Bruce took the view to go with experience because of the urgency of going up. Anyone of a certain age can remember Ugo having a few mares for us before he established himself.
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On the other hand, if you don't play them, they don't develop, or leave and develop elsewhere as we've seen with Cahill and Albrighton. The other thing is, if the youth team is not producing any decent players for the 1st team then what is the point?
Now my question is would you take another 1 or 2 seasons in the championship, if that means taking the long view and trying to bring these youth players on or should we just replace the departures with cheap championship standard players and loans that we think can do a job and get us up?
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I’m not sure many people are advocating the younger players are used en masse, but they should be being used (in my opinion of course) to supplement a squad of 18-20 senior pros.
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I think we should have the younger players available to have an impact (bench) at least instead of having people like Lansbury being left out the squad on 35k a week, Samba on 20k, Whelan on 30k etc etc
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I think we should have the younger players available to have an impact (bench) at least instead of having people like Lansbury being left out the squad on 35k a week, Samba on 20k, Whelan on 30k etc etc
Agreed and that was the Bruce way, invest in experience. Unfortunately its not worked and know we'll be in a world of hurt as we'll struggle to shift those wages on. We've created possibly 4 or 5 new Micah Richards types.
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I think we should have the younger players available to have an impact (bench) at least instead of having people like Lansbury being left out the squad on 35k a week, Samba on 20k, Whelan on 30k etc etc
Yep, this is where I am. I don't see the point of having 3-4 senior players for a position. 1-2 and the kids around them. It's why I didn't want Whelan and Elmo, it's why I didn't see the point of signing Houri, Lansbury and Bjarni in the same window and then adding Onomah, it's why I never wanted us to offer Hutton another contract. I had the same problem with Fat Ross when he signed as well, it feels too much like buying players because we can and it's easier than giving a shit about the training ground.
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Our youth players will get some time next season, if SB is manager I’m sure it’ll be under condition that he gives some first team experience, I would love him to get a tune out McCormack and Richards and for Tony to introduce the Spurs rule no incoming players over 27
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Whoever the manager is, the Yoots will feature big time next season. It could make us or break us, but now it is our only option.
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I'm sure we'll see Green
Think RHM could be an impact sub but maybe better to loan him out first
Think O'Hare and JDH definitely need loans.
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We have a centre half called Samba who has done well with the kids.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/bHeL8J/E40526_E2_8_EBB_43_CC_8547_4443_BED353_D2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bHeL8J)
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No matter how serious the ffp issues, we've got a lot of senior players in the squad who we will find difficult to shift before these youngsters get a chance. Lansbury was only occasionally on the bench. If onomah and grealish go he'll be up the pecking order but someone like JDH will still have a lot in front of them
We can't create a bomb squad again
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As we currently wait to learn about the future of Bruce, and also the financial situation to become clearer next season, I was wondering how many on here would be happy with us going with 5 or 6 youth players replacing the departures this summer?
Bruce didn't really play them and i understood why. Youth players are consistently inconsistent and most experience a drop in form more than once after they initially break through. Bruce took the view to go with experience because of the urgency of going up. Anyone of a certain age can remember Ugo having a few mares for us before he established himself.
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On the other hand, if you don't play them, they don't develop, or leave and develop elsewhere as we've seen with Cahill and Albrighton. The other thing is, if the youth team is not producing any decent players for the 1st team then what is the point?
Now my question is would you take another 1 or 2 seasons in the championship, if that means taking the long view and trying to bring these youth players on or should we just replace the departures with cheap championship standard players and loans that we think can do a job and get us up?
100%. Next question.
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Hepburn-Murphy needs a chance at some point.
Talked about as this brilliant prospect, think I've seen him play five minutes in three years!
Be interested how many more minutes regular match goers have seen him play if we don't count reserve/youth team games.
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It's inevitable that we'll see more of the kids - apart from anything else, they're now a year older and physically better capable of putting up with the rigours of the game.
With a number of departures, we'll also probably see a punt with 2-3 players from the lower divisions who have shown a spark of talent; no idea who, though.
Along with those that are out of contract, I'd like to see Elmo, Hourihane and Adomah go (and, ideally, Lansbury), to make way for the younger players. We may get a fee for each of them.
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I think we can file Green in the ‘If only’ category.
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Hepburn-Murphy needs a chance at some point.
Talked about as this brilliant prospect, think I've seen him play five minutes in three years!
Be interested how many more minutes regular match goers have seen him play if we don't count reserve/youth team games.
I watched him in some of those under 23 games at the end of the season
He was raw and inconsistent. But I thought he looked ready to make an impact at this level. He's extremely quick and has good technique. And he scores goals
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I think we can file Green in the ‘If only’ category.
We've written off enough players at that age (Albrighton, davis, bannan) let's not do that again. People were writing grealish off a year or two ago FFS
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There’s only one way of finding out if any of them are good enough and it’s not playing some shit tournament in Hong Kong
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The Championship is brutal we have all seen that. Even an FA Cup tie against a lower division team seemed to be a step too far for one rising star last season O'Hare (might well be ready now) - but we do need to treat cautiously.
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We need to loan them out and should have done that in January knowing that we might need them this season
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I think we can file Green in the ‘If only’ category.
We've written off enough players at that age (Albrighton, davis, bannan) let's not do that again. People were writing grealish off a year or two ago FFS
100% agree, plenty were ‘all fart etc’ about Jack only 12 months ago.
Green will be given a chance and rightly so.
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It's no good using the younger players if they are going to labelled as shit and not fit to wear the shirt every time they make a mistake which costs us a goal or even 3pts. Fans are going to have to be supporters from now on. If you can't say nothing nice, don't say nothing at all. Villa for the long haul because that is the name of the game now.
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I like Green. Good turn of pace and hes a big lad too. I would have liked him to have featured more. Hopefully he's over the hamstring injuries.
We need his pace. We need RHM pace too.
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We’ve spent a whole season giving Onomah 20+ games for him to go back to spurs rather than our own 19-20 year olds. To me O’Hare would have been a like for like replacement for grealish through the season, and he’s played at most 5 senior appearances including in the cups.
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Would much rather see our kids on the bench than loanees, over paid failures like Lansbury and past it players like Whelan.
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It does make you wonder what is in the youth squad. I mean is there any centre-halfs or fullbacks? I don't watch them so i don't know really but surely for example with elphick on loan, and only samba as cover, a youth player should have been promoted to learn from the likes of terry this season?
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I think Suliman was considered the best CH prospect but I dont think he did too well out on loan
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These three lads, Green, RHM and O'Hare need a run of at ten-fifteen games in the team before judgement is cast on them. It took players a good seven years older than them like Hourihane similar time to make any sort of impact so we are going to have to be patient.
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You're right Eamonn, I know Green and RHM suffered injuries this season, but not having O'Hare involved was a missed opportunity, especially when SB would regularly have 3 defensive midfielders on the bench.
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I personally don't think O'Hare was ready and I wouldn't call Lansbury and Onomah defensive midfielders.
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I think Suliman was considered the best CH prospect but I dont think he did too well out on loan
well i understand the value of loans but with the gap there in our squad, he probably would have learnt far more from being round terry i think than a handful of games in league 2. Either way bringing in some man U youth player instead doesn't really say Bruce has much trust in them.
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I personally don't think O'Hare was ready and I wouldn't call Lansbury and Onomah defensive midfielders.
I'm not sure what Lansbury is to be honest, Onomah played there for England youth levels, he always seemed to be played out of position for us, definitely wasn't a wide man or no.10
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what a waste that loan signing of Axel was too.
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what a waste that loan signing of Axel was too.
yep. If you just want cover then bring in an experienced player on loan, not someone else's youth players. Like he was doing them a favour.
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There’s only one way of finding out if any of them are good enough and it’s not playing some shit tournament in Hong Kong
Oi! My brother plays in that every year.
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We say U23 - in fact we have Lyden (22), McKirdy, Abdo & Swift at 21 - these are the oldest.
Re: Suliman - he looks better than he did - his loan spell was not good-but the better prospect is Bedeau - you can see why we paid 900,000 for him. He is 2 years younger than Suliman
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From what I saw on AVTV and in person towards the end of the season, I really like Corey Blackett-Taylor.
I also think Mitchell Clark looks a very promising full back.
O'Hare and Hepburn-Murphy seem to run some games and disappear in others - but consistency comes with experience I guess. When they are good, they are very very good.
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apparently Corey has dropped the 'Blackett' from his name in some mentions
These are the ages of the Academy:
(https://i.imgur.com/9RRiZLM.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/j89tHTY.png)
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O'Hare has knee ligament damage. Out for the start of the season.
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Mitchell Clark played in a few Carling cup ties earlier this season.
With the lack of LBs in our squad I imagine he'll be on the bench regularly next season so good chance for him to break through.
Totally forgot about Bedeau. He's been here 18 months so would think he'd also come into 18 or we'd loan him out to league one considering he was playing there for Bury.
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We need to have a major re-think on the youth team if you believe, like me, they should be getting more playing time. You've got about 10 players there over 20, a lot of youth internationals, and they've managed about 8 appearances for the 1st team between them. Bree and Davis are the other two. If they're not getting any games at 20 then get rid if the club doesn't think they're good enough but we're not in the premier anymore. give them a go, play them as subs, give them a run in the cups. If they're shit what have we lost? There's a load of 19 year olds to try next 8)
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The trouble is these players that look promising here in the youth and reserve end up leaving for nothing and then looking very decent elsewhere! See Robinson and Daniel Johnson as prime examples of that. We need to give O'Hare games next season, because he looks easily good enough to me. Davis will be in the squad most weeks you have to think. Clark looked a perfectly reasonable full back in the cup games so should get more minutes, while Sulliman may well be 3rd or 4th choice centre half come the end of the summer. With Elphick going, you would have to imagine Jedinak and Chester will be the starting 2. Scary thought really. Bree should be playing, and RHM needs a run of starts IMO to get him used to it.
Finally Green - how are people writing him off? He was our brightest player first few weeks of the season, scored a cracker against Norwich and always looked like making things happen, but then got done with injuries. Need him back big time, the only pace we have.
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I don't think you can write any player off at 19 but you have to play them. We've got youth players at 21 who have never played a game for us. In the championship. Sulliman should be main reserve centre half next season. if he's not up to championship football, then bin him and try bedeau. If we have no money then at least make the youth players back-up.
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Yep, the silver lining of not going up for me was the prospect of finally seeing some of these lads get a proper go in our first team whereas had we gone up I can't imagine Bruce would ever have given any of them minutes in the Premier League.
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Lyden and Doyle-Hayes should get plenty of game-time. Alongside more experienced CMF, I can see them developing quickly into reasonable players.
Bearing in mind where Jonathan Hogg has ended up; the experience that Daniel Johnson has had; the influence that Bannan has had at Sheff when uninjured … we need to persevere with some of these current kids.
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Unfortunately, as a previous poster has already said, under the present management, hardly any of these players will get anywhere near the bench let alone game time.
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I would say (Always glass half full) that it’s a fantastic chance for some talented and hungry guys now that their pathway to first team opportunity is going to be clearer.
If Bruce remains he’ll have little choice to break from the mantra of experience over youth which in my book gives me hope.
First team opportunities await for so many more than last season and that’s surely got to be a good thing.
These lads faced little or no chance of getting anywhere near matchday squads. That surely will change now.
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I like the names Indiana Vasilev and Mungo.
Shame about O’Hare as he looks like a real prospect, but a lot of our youngsters look really good and a positive out of us not being promoted, is we’re likely to see them getting more first team appearances.
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Agreed. Though I think that's a two year job before we see some of these guys regularly playing
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I like the names Indiana Vasilev and Mungo.
Shame about O’Hare as he looks like a real prospect, but a lot of our youngsters look really good and a positive out of us not being promoted, is we’re likely to see them getting more first team appearances.
I watch Indiana's progress closely - already been in the USA U-16 and U-17 squads (described as a winger, I think) - mainly due to fact he was born about 20 mile from my house - Savannah, Ga. Not exactly a soccer hotbed - but the St Patrick's Day rugby tournaments are very well known over here.
Only signed 2/3 months ago
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(https://i.imgflip.com/2bhjkk.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/2bhjkk)
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Bazeley Graham has been very impressive when I've seen him play. Not much though granted.
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We need to have a major re-think on the youth team if you believe, like me, they should be getting more playing time. You've got about 10 players there over 20, a lot of youth internationals, and they've managed about 8 appearances for the 1st team between them. Bree and Davis are the other two. If they're not getting any games at 20 then get rid if the club doesn't think they're good enough but we're not in the premier anymore. give them a go, play them as subs, give them a run in the cups. If they're shit what have we lost? There's a load of 19 year olds to try next 8)
We need to use the loan system much better.
No good complaining about taking other team's promising young players and training them up if we don't do the same with our yoof.
Jack greatly benefited from his year in league one with Notts County and then was involved the next season with our first team squad so that's the logical progression.
O'Hare and Hepburn Murphy would've benefited much more from season long loan in league one than playing youth cup games.
We've had this problem stretching back to MON days when we kept the Fonz warming the bench for a whole season.
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Unfortunately, as a previous poster has already said, under the present management, hardly any of these players will get anywhere near the bench let alone game time.
If SB remains as our manager he's going to have little choice.
I wouldn't say SB is totally allergic to playing youth, an 18 year old scored the winning penalty when SHA went up in 2002. He gave Jordan Henderson his first starts at Sunderland and gave Kienan Davis run of starts first half of last season.
Given the choice though he'd most likely go for the tried and tested senior pro.
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We need to have a major re-think on the youth team if you believe, like me, they should be getting more playing time. You've got about 10 players there over 20, a lot of youth internationals, and they've managed about 8 appearances for the 1st team between them. Bree and Davis are the other two. If they're not getting any games at 20 then get rid if the club doesn't think they're good enough but we're not in the premier anymore. give them a go, play them as subs, give them a run in the cups. If they're shit what have we lost? There's a load of 19 year olds to try next 8)
We need to use the loan system much better.
No good complaining about taking other team's promising young players and training them up if we don't do the same with our yoof.
Jack greatly benefited from his year in league one with Notts County and then was involved the next season with our first team squad so that's the logical progression.
O'Hare and Hepburn Murphy would've benefited much more from season long loan in league one than playing youth cup games.
We've had this problem stretching back to MON days when we kept the Fonz warming the bench for a whole season.
Well i agree to certain extent but loans aren't going to progress everyone and they need to be done at the right time. You look at Gardner who i suppose you could call Youth team deadwood now. He's probably a decent championship/Div 1 player but when he could have developed into more 5 years ago, at 20 he was farmed out to championship teams and basically frozen out. Now I understand that because at the time we were in the premiership, but now you'd hope they would be given the chance to try even if they fail.
If you take Davis for example, who played a lot of games last season and did ok with the large step-up from the reserves. Now i doubt he's gonna get the same amount this season barring injuries and he needs games ,so you have to make the decision or commitment to play him whenever possible, so cup games, regular sub appearance etc.. I'm not sure a loan deal to a Div1/2 side is going to help apart from confidence. Putting him against defenders who take 2 seconds more to close him down and who mark him worse isn't going to improve him. I'd like him at a smaller championship side if possible, but you have to find that club or manager to take him. That's just Davis though. Another younger less experienced player, could quite rightly benefit from a season in div1/2
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Gardner lost two years of his career through injuries. For example he'd have played a fair bit I reckon in 12/13 considering the midfields we were putting out that year but did his cruciate the week before the season started.
Even though he's fallen out of favour Davis is more established with first team. Ones to loan out imo are/were O'Hare. Hepburn Murphy and maybe Mitchell Clark.
Likely we will need all three involved regularly in the 18 next season but for the first two I can't believe they wouldn't have benefited from loan moves instead of hanging around here and occasioningly making the bench.
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Gardner lost two years of his career through injuries. For example he'd have played a fair bit I reckon in 12/13 considering the midfields we were putting out that year but did his cruciate the week before the season started.
Even though he's fallen out of favour Davis is more established with first team. Ones to loan out imo are/were O'Hare. Hepburn Murphy and maybe Mitchell Clark.
Likely we will need all three involved regularly in the 18 next season but for the first two I can't believe they wouldn't have benefited from loan moves instead of hanging around here and occasioningly making the bench.
well yeah i agree with them 3. They've played a handful of games at this level between them. 30 games in div1 or 2 would undoubtably been more use to them than the youth team.
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Graham Burke just scored for ROI on his debut.
We had him a few years back.