Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: wittonwarrior on January 06, 2018, 09:24:13 PM
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I know we are far from being the only club, but we are The Villa 7 times FA Cup winners, 5 times winners of the League Cup, and of course a certain European Cup.
The argument is always that a cup run can damage your league prospects. Well last season when we lost at Tottenham we were lower mid table so not quite sure on that one.
Its not only the manager who picks a weakened squad, the Villa bandwagon is also downsized. Less hospitality, paper tickets for season ticket holders, no visit to the Holte Suite by the legends that were in attendance and no opening of the Holte Suite after the game.
For a sizeable number of fans they target a visit to Villa Park for the first cup tie. A large number of kids were in attendance thanks the £1 offer.
FA Cup runs never did the likes of Man Utd, West Ham, Millwall, Cardiff or Sunderland any harm as a 2nd division club so what makes us so special. Don't forget we managed a double in 1975.
The FA Cup is the holly grail for a lot of Villa fans so please Dr Tony please can you instruct our great club to at least make a fist of it next season. UTV
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Used to love the FA Cup but such is the nature of football these days most clubs in the top two divisions would rather finish in a 'safe' 14th place than run the risk of having to play extra games to actually win a trophy. I hate seeing clubs like Peterborough and their support being described as "no marks", that's the sort of arrogance that we used to rightly condemn Man United supporters etc for coming out with.
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I still love the FA Cup and dislike the way teams don't play their strongest teams. There again that team today should have been good enough. My one criticism is that Elphick should have started alongside Terry, he don't need a rest. I would also have started Whelan
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Could take us only 6 games for us to win the f a cup.
Yet a lot of fans want to make the league a priority where it'll most probably take 10 wins just stay in it or 20 wins to be in with a shout of winning it.
Call me old fashioned buI'd'd rather we went to win every game as it comes be it league , f a cup or egg cup
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I don't think its disrespecting the cups really, it's just values have changed. Once the FA cup was a big prize financially as well as prestige and probably worth more than the prize money for winning the Div.1 league. Now you have the situation where us going up is worth many many millions more than a FA cup win. What sane club isn't going to aim for that? If someone offered 38m for winning the cup like they offer for finishing first in the premier league and 24m for getting to the last 8, then I guarantee no-one would disrespect it 8)
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Ths season, out of all the seasons I can recall, is the one where we needed to be pragmatic in our approach to the FA Cup. I'm sorry to admit that the fact we've gone out means nothing to me (easy for me to say when I haven't paid for the privilege of seeing it I know).
That's not to say I dont hate the way the FA Cup has been completely dumbed down over the last 15 years though. Until there's a Champions League place attached to winning it it'll never change unfortunatley.
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Its a shame and a sad reality that today might have been my last early FA Cup visit to Villa Park as I've just about had enough of the weakened side selection over the years. A 3rd Round home tie guarantees a weekend off for the first team.
My ideals are outdated I suppose and my £10 won't really matter because if I see my manager treat today as a training exercise then why should I bother?
As a fan I feel a few emotions right now.
Conned. Because what I saw today wasn't a committed team effort. Players played out of position. I'm not keen seeing my goalkeeper time wasting after 60 minutes at home and also not happy about seeing midfielders after missing tackles sitting on their arse pulling up their socks while the opposition attack and disappear into the distance.
Sympathetic. Because young guys like Callum O'Hare have waited and waited for opportunities of game time and when a start comes along he's playing in nothing more than a glorified training game.
Frustrated. Because all of that momentum gained over the last few games has gone down the toilet. What about a bit of a feel good factor with a Cup run or is that really an out dated opinion.
I'll guarantee to everyone here that we wouldn't have got anywhere near the Final but we won't find that out now will we?
So fine. Next season can the club not patronise us by giving us all of this magic of the cup bollocks when we're clearly not interested in competing in this great competition.
Or just play the U23's
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Nunkin1965, I agree, if we don't win next week the momentum has gone and there will be another crisis. What team id you want to start if I may ask?
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Totally agree with the main poster. We lose momentum and also is there any empirical evidence whatsoever that a cup run harms your league form?
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I have been watching this guy since we played Ipswich. Interesting perspective I thought.
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Nunkin1965, I agree, if we don't win next week the momentum has gone and there will be another crisis. What team id you want to start if I may ask?
One with at least 8 changes to include out first team from the one that finished yesterday I would imagine.
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There will always be an excuse.
Let's say we actually get promoted. Next season will be a battle just to stay away from the bottom six, so when the 3rd round arrives we'll be making the same excuse that there's something else more important and we can't have the extra games.
The chances of us winning any silverware again are extremely remote.
I love the FA Cup and hate the way it's been completely devalued.
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The disrespect shown to both domestic cups, especially the F.A. Cup, is something I find really difficult to comprehend. I guess it's an age thing, but as someone for whom Cup Final day was one of the highlights of their childhood year, it was one of the main reasons I became a football fan.
My opinion, for what it's worth, is the disrespect is a combination of the F.A. themselves devaluating their competition with sponsorship, rule changes and scheduling; allowing the tail to wag the dog, i.e. the big clubs determine some of the rule changes for their own benefit; and an influx of overseas owners, managers and players from countries where the domestic cup was always a minor consideration and have brought with them that prevailing attitude.
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Totally agree with the main poster. We lose momentum and also is there any empirical evidence whatsoever that a cup run harms your league form?
1969. Leicester reached the final losing to Man City but got relegated.
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Totally agree with the main poster. We lose momentum and also is there any empirical evidence whatsoever that a cup run harms your league form?
1969. Leicester reached the final losing to Man City but got relegated.
2013 Wigan win the cup and get relegated
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Would they not have gone down anyway though? Appreciate probably impossible to answer!
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Totally agree with the main poster. We lose momentum and also is there any empirical evidence whatsoever that a cup run harms your league form?
1969. Leicester reached the final losing to Man City but got relegated.
2013 Wigan win the cup and get relegated
1990. Poor league form... Manager under intense pressure with even their fans singing about him being on the dole... Then Mark Robbins ignites a Cup run that ends with them lifting the trophy in a replay.... Manchester United and their previously under threat manager then dominate English football for the next two decades.
Edit
Something that one of their centre backs throughout that Cup run should know only too well.
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Not only do they disrespect the cup, they disrespect the fans by churning out these weakened teams. There are only 3 trophies to play for each season, and to win the FA cup only takes 6 games and the memories of that cup run will last forever. All that has happened now is that defeat has become another infamous blot on our history. The FA cup is part of our glorious history and in my view should never be disrespected. In years to come very few will remember where Aston Villa finished in the 2017/18 season, but they would have remembered a cup win. I didn't like Steve Bruce before yesterday, that team selection did nothing to change my mind.
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Only six games. Yet we haven't won 6 in a row in 61 years. Maybe it's not quite so easy and even less easy these days.
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If we think we cannot compete with PL teams and give them a good game in later rounds, what chance have we got of staying up if we get promoted.
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If we aren't going to field a full team why enter the competition
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The devaluation of the FA Cup is one of the saddest things to happen in sport. A competition with so much heritage and history is now looked upon by chairman, managers, players and even now some fans as being a nuisance we could all do without because either staying or clambering aboard the Premier League gravy train is too important. The likes of Sky and BT brainwashing us into thinking all we're interested in is the Premier League. And what for? So we can finish seventeenth or higher? Funny that Lincoln getting to the quarter finals last season didn't hinder them getting promoted.
The game really has been corrupted by greed.
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Totally agree, other than Christmas Day or your birthday, FA Cup Fianal day was THE most exciting day of the year growing up as a kid. I can still recite all the finals and scorers from every final through the 70's, 80's and 90's.
Now I honestly couldn't tell you who played in the final last year.
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If we aren't going to field a full team why enter the competition
Exactly. If we continue to make excuses about the extra games and that we've more important things to worry about, then don't enter it. If we actually don't want to be in the FA Cup, don't waste everybody's time.
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It could be an indication of how much pressure is on Bruce from on high to get promotion.
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We can beat ourselves up all we like but the fact is that what we did yesterday is done by virtually every club in the top two divisions, even those who realistically have nothing to play for. Blame the FA, blame the Premier League, blame the TV companies and blame the clubs for letting it happen but that's modern football and we have to either accept it or move on.
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What has been allowed to happen is only a small group of teams particularly in the fall cup now generally win the pots notwithstanding the league. No matter my dislike for them would love bristol city to win the league cup
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It could be an indication of how much pressure is on Bruce from on high to get promotion.
I think so. Given some of the tweets coming out of the club after the Brentford game I reckon SB was given a stern word and so we've seen better results and performances in the last two and taking no chances yesterday.
He got to thr FA cup final four years ago and Hull could easily have won given they were 2 up against Arsenal so he can get a team through rounds and Hull were newly promoted that year.
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I don't think we disrespected the cup yesterday at all. There was only two selection decisions I would have made differently and they were Elphick instead of Bree (being a centre half by trade and needing minutes) and RHM instead of Onomah (to play two up front).
We were let down by senior pros yesterday such as Taylor, Thor, Hourihane and Onomah (senior in that he has been a first team regular).
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As Dave said, I guess it is something we just have to accept no matter how bitter the taste left in the mouth is. For us to go out the way we did yesterday is really disappointing as there's now no excitement about the draw tomorrow and no prospect of a tie that will capture the imagination.
It might get to the point where serious questions have to be asked about cup competitions if they aren't already.
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Promotion is so important to the club as a whole that is has to be our only priority this season. We have had plenty of problems with injuries already so risking more for a few additional games in a completion that we are not strong enough to win is a fairly straightforward decision I would have thought.
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It’s a sad fact that as supporters the majority on here and the wider fan base and other clubs and owners just accept that it’s part of the modern game. I’ll just play FIFA from now on if I fancy a Cup run then.(Mind you I’m shite at it).
The fact that Bruce actually managed to get a Championship to the Final in the modern era annoys me even more because he’s proved it can be done.
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It’s a sad fact that as supporters the majority on here and the wider fan base and other clubs and owners just accept that it’s part of the modern game. I’ll just play FIFA from now on if I fancy a Cup run then.(Mind you I’m shite at it).
The fact that Bruce actually managed to get a Championship to the Final in the modern era annoys me even more because he’s proved it can be done.
I agree. If you look at the FA Cup, then in the last ten years, Villa, Wigan, Palace, Hull, Stoke, Portsmouth (twice) and Cardiff have all got to the finals. It’s not always the Champions League contenders getting to the finals, and if us and fans of other clubs are going to just meekly accept that we’re not going to win it, then they might as well just abolish it. It’s only two years since we were in the final, and while that itself was a disaster, the run itself was great, and somethings results like us against Liverpool in the semi, and Wigan v Man City in the final happen.
In any case, with the squad we have Bruce should have been able to pick and organise a squad to play well and win against a lower league team, or at least not get utterly battered. He’s hopeless, utterly hopeless.
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It’s a sad fact that as supporters the majority on here and the wider fan base and other clubs and owners just accept that it’s part of the modern game. I’ll just play FIFA from now on if I fancy a Cup run then.(Mind you I’m shite at it).
The fact that Bruce actually managed to get a Championship to the Final in the modern era annoys me even more because he’s proved it can be done.
I agree. If you look at the FA Cup, then in the last ten years, Villa, Wigan, Palace, Hull, Stoke, Portsmouth (twice) and Cardiff have all got to the finals. It’s not always the Champions League contenders getting to the finals, and if us and fans of other clubs are going to just meekly accept that we’re not going to win it, then they might as well just abolish it. It’s only two years since we were in the final, and while that itself was a disaster, the run itself was great, and somethings results like us against Liverpool in the semi, and Wigan v Man City in the final happen.
In any case, with the squad we have Bruce should have been able to pick and organise a squad to play well and win against a lower league team, or at least not get utterly battered. He’s hopeless, utterly hopeless.
Spot on, Risso. He's a fucking crap manager.
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Like most of you no doubt, I got an email from the Villa on Friday warning me: "Don't leave it late to book your place on our FA Cup journey!" That's their exclamation mark by the way. It's like Wumpty phoning me up to remind me a short hop only costs £1.50, then sticking a toddler in the driver's seat of a bus with no engine. If we are going to accept the FA Cup is just a chance to see all those players deemed not good enough show why they don't usually get picked, don't build it up into something not to be missed and don't bloody charge for it.
What I want to know is why is getting promotion more important? If we go up, will we suddenly take the Cup more seriously next year? Or will we get to see more backs-to-the-wall tedium and many more defeats as we make excuses about why finishing 17th is so vital that we can't afford an extra few games? I like seeing the Villa compete and win, not tread water while gifting points to our betters. I prefer uncertainty, surprise wins, shock defeats and actual competition to having more income to shell out for the same lack of good times.
The choice isn't between the Premier League and the FA Cup; it's a choice of losing on a more regular basis, having no hope of winning the Premier League and paying more for players who aren't good enough for your level, or getting some late season excitement.
Good luck Peterborough.
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It’s a sad fact that as supporters the majority on here and the wider fan base and other clubs and owners just accept that it’s part of the modern game. I’ll just play FIFA from now on if I fancy a Cup run then.(Mind you I’m shite at it).
The fact that Bruce actually managed to get a Championship to the Final in the modern era annoys me even more because he’s proved it can be done.
Exactly. The attitude now seems to be that you can "pick and choose" which games to take seriously. Like I said earlier, its how the game has gone in the last 10-15 years, but it doesn't mean we have to like it.
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Its not disrespect for the Cups, its disrespect for those fans that work hard all week, skimp and save, and spend that money on going along and supporting their club. Basically, its two fingers up to them!
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Newport beating Leeds.
Looking at the Leeds team looks like half of it are reserves.
That's Leeds, ourselves and Cardiff in the top 6 who have all put out weakened teams. I reckon Derby would've aswell if they'd not had Man. United.
Not saying it's right but to just annoys me when it's made out on here we're the only team in the football league who does this.
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Totally agree with the main poster. We lose momentum and also is there any empirical evidence whatsoever that a cup run harms your league form?
It could be argued that the cup run to the Final under Sherwood helped us survive as the feel good factor around the club gave us a boost.
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I still think the fault lies with the FA. Any sporting competition including the FA cup gains prestige by what you can win. That attracts the better competitors and improves the competition. The FA cup has fallen way behind other competitions in the prize money stakes. If we had won the FA cup this year our total prize money would have been 3.4m which is peanuts frankly. The FA sold just the Cup oversea's tv rights for 820m in 2016, so its pretty obvious it's not being invested back in the competition.
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Hurt Bristol City a bit.
They have one win in four since beat Man. United.
I doubt SHA would've got relegated in 2011 if they'd gone out early in the Carling cup.
Didn't Boro go down the year they reached two cup finals?
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Well one result of yesterdays decision is that its made the Forest game a must win game, and increased the pressure on winning it. He will get dogs abuse if we lose that game.
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Not saying it's right but to just annoys me when it's made out on here we're the only team in the football league who does this.
It would help us no end if all teams did it. Maybe our collection of half-arses might stand a chance if the opposition was as uninterested in the competition. But regardless of whether one or 101 clubs take the piss, I don't like the Villa doing it. As for whether a cup run hurts or helps, we don't know do we? Taking random examples to fit your chosen scenario is hardly scientific. What can be said is in recent times the Premier League winners have either won cups as well or got to very late stages of the competition. But even that is taking two facts and trying to claim cause and effect where there may be none.
The FA cup has fallen way behind other competitions in the prize money stakes. If we had won the FA cup this year our total prize money would have been 3.4m which is peanuts frankly.
Is it really prize money that's to blame? Does anyone parade a big cheque to their town hall after a Wembley win? Given football is less profitable now than ever, all having more money does is allow you to spunk more money away. It's not a business like any other. Financially, the football "business" is a tax-dodge, a networking opportunity, a money-laundering route, an ego-boost, a plaything. It's not profit driven; it always spends more than it brings in, leaving an internal market to allow cashflow to mask insolvency. So while the income from prize money and the like suits owners, why would fans care? I get why owners, players, even managers would want to look for the cash over glory. I don't know why a supporter would.
Remember our run of consecutive top ten finishes in the Deloitte list? Heady days.
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Only six games. Yet we haven't won 6 in a row in 61 years. Maybe it's not quite so easy and even less easy these days.
It's not six in a row though is it? It's six individual games spread out over half a season.
I was chatting to someone yesterday about the FA cup, and even though our recent record is less than brilliant I remember our cup runs to the finals more so than just some random fixtures. I remember we played Wolves in the early 80s, think it may have been the fourth round. Villa Park was rammed and there were thousands of Wolves locked out. The FA cup means something special to us fans. It's a shame that the it doesn't mean as much to Steve Bruce and Co.
I don't recall Ron Saunders ever putting out a weakend team in any competition, but then again he set out to win every single game and managed to win a few trophies along the way and won the league using only 14 players.
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So,by some peoples reasoning as we are not going to win the F.A. Cup we shouldn't be bothered. Ok then, are we likely to win the Premier League in the next 5 years? No ok lets forget about it then, in fact why bother at all?? Were not going to win the Championship, so err why bother? Someone might get injured. Players get injured in training, better not train them (which I dont think we do anyway) Personally a cup run would be great, momentum, confidence, big games, isn't that what we want? Hope we win on Saturday, if not well whats the excuse then, saving players for Burton as that is more winnable??
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I should point out that I was one of those who couldn’t’ be arsed yesterday. I’ve had stinking cold all week so decided to stay in the warm.
That said one of the consistent themes on this site is using the squad more. It appears that is what we did yesterday and collectively they failed to make the most of their opportunity. As always happens the blame is directed at the manager but should the team we put out yesterday not been capable of doing better?
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The FA cup has fallen way behind other competitions in the prize money stakes. If we had won the FA cup this year our total prize money would have been 3.4m which is peanuts frankly.
Is it really prize money that's to blame? Does anyone parade a big cheque to their town hall after a Wembley win? Given football is less profitable now than ever, all having more money does is allow you to spunk more money away. It's not a business like any other. Financially, the football "business" is a tax-dodge, a networking opportunity, a money-laundering route, an ego-boost, a plaything. It's not profit driven; it always spends more than it brings in, leaving an internal market to allow cashflow to mask insolvency. So while the income from prize money and the like suits owners, why would fans care? I get why owners, players, even managers would want to look for the cash over glory. I don't know why a supporter would.
Remember our run of consecutive top ten finishes in the Deloitte list? Heady days.
But the FA cup didn't start as some little competition with no value to winning it. It got prestige and people took it seriously because you COULD make a lot of money comparable to the bread and butter of the league. Now, while a lower division club could probably still pay off its debts with a good cup run, to anyone else it's a distraction from the competitions where the money is. That needs to be altered to fix the bias towards the league competitions. Would we have took it more seriously if you got 10m instead of £360,000 for reaching the QF's? You bet we would have
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So,by some peoples reasoning as we are not going to win the F.A. Cup we shouldn't be bothered. Ok then, are we likely to win the Premier League in the next 5 years? No ok lets forget about it then, in fact why bother at all?? Were not going to win the Championship, so err why bother? Someone might get injured. Players get injured in training, better not train them (which I dont think we do anyway) Personally a cup run would be great, momentum, confidence, big games, isn't that what we want? Hope we win on Saturday, if not well whats the excuse then, saving players for Burton as that is more winnable??
In a cup competition you either win the trophy or you don’t, getting to the last 8, for example, gains you absolutely nothing. The same is not true of the league due to play offs or European qualification in the PL. This in turn gives you a potential opportunity to sign better players and thus improve further. Therefore I don’t think your analogies are entirely accurate.
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Dont disagree Chris Smith, but Bree at centre half?? We have some decent youngsters who could have played, Easah Suliman for example at centre half. The midfield looked very strange. Jack had his best game for us since the Cup Semi v Bristol, why not play him?
Anyway, I am still miffed that a Division 1 team beat us, regardless if we can win the cup or not. Play like we did against Bristol City, and loose ok I can handle that, play like we did yesterday, and far to many times under SB, and loose, then i am not happy.
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Nunkin1965, I agree, if we don't win next week the momentum has gone and there will be another crisis. What team id you want to start if I may ask?
Apologies for the late response.
In my world which isn’t reality I’d have gone with pretty much the same side as last week or as close as possible, but I’ll bow to the pressure of too many games even though I don’t think it holds water and go for this line up. I’ve given this 10 minutes and I think we’d have been better.
Steer
Hutton Terry Elphick Taylor
O’Hare, Lansbury, Whelan, Doyle Hayes,
Rushian, Davis.
Steer was fine as I don’t see any serious effect on the side and I would have gone with him.
Hutton, Terry,Elphick,Taylor.
The back four was a complete disaster.
Why make so many changes leaving John Terry so exposed?
Which would mean I’d try and protect him a bit.
Midfield. Whelan, O’Hare,Doyle Hayes, Lansbury.
Playing Thor in midfield was an awful decision. Peterborough just waltzed through us.
Up Front Davis, Rushian.
Strong first team bench for me as well.
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Only six games. Yet we haven't won 6 in a row in 61 years. Maybe it's not quite so easy and even less easy these days.
It's not six in a row though is it? It's six individual games spread out over half a season.
I was chatting to someone yesterday about the FA cup, and even though our recent record is less than brilliant I remember our cup runs to the finals more so than just some random fixtures. I remember we played Wolves in the early 80s, think it may have been the fourth round. Villa Park was rammed and there were thousands of Wolves locked out. The FA cup means something special to us fans. It's a shame that the it doesn't mean as much to Steve Bruce and Co.
I don't recall Ron Saunders ever putting out a weakend team in any competition, but then again he set out to win every single game and managed to win a few trophies along the way and won the league using only 14 players.
That year we won the league with 14 players we went out in the opening round of both league cup and FA Cup...Ipswich reached the final of the UEFA Cup and Semi's of the FA Cup, maybe it took it's toll in the end on Ipswich.
I just don't get this mock outrage of our much changed squad on here. Can honestly anyone say they were surprised at the line up yesterday? Also people moaning about the ticket price yesterday..was it really that bad? £10-£15 and £1 for kids I would imagine is cheaper than games in the conference yesterday.
I was annoyed we got beat at home by lower league opposition with a weakened team, but this is down to some players attitude on the day more than the manager being crap..on this occasion.
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Ok Chris Smith fair comment. Just annoyed that people dont think it matters. That is their right of course. I dont agree. Would rather Villa put up a fight in the cup, both cup competitions. Whislt I was being flippant about the premier league, its a shame that if we go up next year, the third round of the cup will be written off as we need to finish 16th. I just find it sad :(
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I should point out that I was one of those who couldn’t’ be arsed yesterday. I’ve had stinking cold all week so decided to stay in the warm.
That said one of the consistent themes on this site is using the squad more. It appears that is what we did yesterday and collectively they failed to make the most of their opportunity. As always happens the blame is directed at the manager but should the team we put out yesterday not been capable of doing better?
Using the squad is fine. But 10 changes when we can barely cope when 1 or 2 are missing was never going to work.
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Nunkin1965, I agree, if we don't win next week the momentum has gone and there will be another crisis. What team id you want to start if I may ask?
Apologies for the late response.
In my world which isn’t reality I’d have gone with pretty much the same side as last week or as close as possible, but I’ll bow to the pressure of too many games even though I don’t think it holds water and go for this line up. I’ve given this 10 minutes and I think we’d have been better.
Steer
Hutton Terry Elphick Taylor
O’Hare, Lansbury, Whelan, Doyle Hayes,
Rushian, Davis.
Steer was fine as I don’t see any serious effect on the side and I would have gone with him.
Hutton, Terry,Elphick,Taylor.
The back four was a complete disaster.
Why make so many changes leaving John Terry so exposed?
Which would mean I’d try and protect him a bit.
Midfield. Whelan, O’Hare,Doyle Hayes, Lansbury.
Playing Thor in midfield was an awful decision. Peterborough just waltzed through us.
Up Front Davis, Rushian.
Strong first team bench for me as well.
Agree with that team
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But the FA cup didn't start as some little competition with no value to winning it. It got prestige and people took it seriously because you COULD make a lot of money comparable to the bread and butter of the league. Now, while a lower division club could probably still pay off its debts with a good cup run, to anyone else it's a distraction from the competitions where the money is. That needs to be altered to fix the bias towards the league competitions. Would we have took it more seriously if you got 10m instead of £360,000 for reaching the QF's? You bet we would have
The FA Cup started in 1871. Professionalism was allowed from 1885. The FA Cup remained arguably the most prestigious trophy in English football until sometime in the 1990s. Certainly when we were winning the European Cup ITV were presenting it as a prelude to the biggest final of all taking place the following evening.
But historical pedantry aside, as I said I can understand why an owner prioritises promotion over a trophy. I get why a manager would use that owner's priorities as an excuse or chance to rest players and try others. I don't know a single reason why supporters give a stuff if we are making a loss on income of £10m or £100m. In answer to your question though, the owners of the club would only have taken £10m seriously if we were seriously in the shit. But if it is the cash they are after, they can spare me the "join our Cup journey" bullshit.
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Did we disrespect the FA Cup yesterday? I'm not so sure.
As people have pointed out, many clubs put out weakened sides and lose. But I doubt we set out to throw the game. What we did was put out a discombobulated second string with no real shape, plan, organisation, fight or desire to win a competitive game of football, even against lower league opposition. We were so arrogant we thought we'd brush Peterborough aside.
Despite all that we can shrug our shoulders and say "it don't really matter, does it?" as I've seen us do probably hundreds of times, increasingly so in recent years, to mitigate yet another half-arsed performance (we used to say it when we lost to bigger clubs - now that list of clubs is growing and we simply expect defeat to them as a formality).
If anything was disrespected yesterday, it was Aston Villa, and anyone who believes it should get over itself and behave like a proper football club and not some kind of posh health resort and gym for young millionaires.
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But the FA cup didn't start as some little competition with no value to winning it. It got prestige and people took it seriously because you COULD make a lot of money comparable to the bread and butter of the league. Now, while a lower division club could probably still pay off its debts with a good cup run, to anyone else it's a distraction from the competitions where the money is. That needs to be altered to fix the bias towards the league competitions. Would we have took it more seriously if you got 10m instead of £360,000 for reaching the QF's? You bet we would have
The FA Cup started in 1871. Professionalism was allowed from 1885. The FA Cup remained arguably the most prestigious trophy in English football until sometime in the 1990s. Certainly when we were winning the European Cup ITV were presenting it as a prelude to the biggest final of all taking place the following evening.
But historical pedantry aside, as I said I can understand why an owner prioritises promotion over a trophy. I get why a manager would use that owner's priorities as an excuse or chance to rest players and try others. I don't know a single reason why supporters give a stuff if we are making a loss on income of £10m or £100m. In answer to your question though, the owners of the club would only have taken £10m seriously if we were seriously in the shit. But if it is the cash they are after, they can spare me the "join our Cup journey" bullshit.
Well i think everyone is interested in the financial aspect. We've all been moaning about FFP and how its affecting us. At the moment if we don't go up we're faced with possibly another season looking for bargain basement signings and if we got to the QF's of the cup, well frankly, £360,000 is gabby's wages for a few months.. Now imagine if a QF run gets you 10m. Then suddenly you have a dilemma where its actually financially worth getting to the QF's and if you get to the QF's you're 90 minutes away from the semi's and 20M. Changes the whole mindset i think,
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The FA Cup started in 1871. Professionalism was allowed from 1885. The FA Cup remained arguably the most prestigious trophy in English football until sometime in the 1990s. Certainly when we were winning the European Cup London-centric ITV were presenting it as a prelude to the all-London final taking place the following evening.
Fixed for you.
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Well i think everyone is interested in the financial aspect. We've all been moaning about FFP and how its affecting us. At the moment if we don't go up we're faced with possibly another season looking for bargain basement signings and if we got to the QF's of the cup, well frankly, £360,000 is gabby's wages for a few months.. Now imagine if a QF run gets you 10m. Then suddenly you have a dilemma where its actually financially worth getting to the QF's and if you get to the QF's you're 90 minutes away from the semi's and 20M. Changes the whole mindset i think,
Would you have been more concerned about yesterday if the prize money was greater? Like I keep saying, I get why people at the club might, but would you as a supporter? Is that what it has come down to? We can have more money to fail to compete with clubs in a higher division. I can accept there will be supporters who, unlike me, would rather be in the top flight than competing and going into matches and campaigns with uncertainty about the end result. Even I would rather be crap in the Premier League than crap in a lower division. But it's the competitive nature and shock value that draws me to football, not the income stream.
I get the FFP argument, although if we were handed £20m we'd probably spend £22m of it - and that isn't a typo. We, like the rest of football, don't follow the spirit of the law on FFP we find ways round it. But if we are using the need to get back to the top flight as our excuse this season, what about all the others? Is chasing income now the only goal? If so, again, the club can spare me the "Part of the Pride" nonsense and own its avarice.
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Ok Chris Smith fair comment. Just annoyed that people dont think it matters. That is their right of course. I dont agree. Would rather Villa put up a fight in the cup, both cup competitions. Whislt I was being flippant about the premier league, its a shame that if we go up next year, the third round of the cup will be written off as we need to finish 16th. I just find it sad :(
Me too, mate, I would much rather be back in a time when the FA Cup was a huge thing played in front of big crowds but sadly we live in an era when being in the top division is given priority by players, managers and owners.
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Success breeds success. By winning trophies you raise the profile of the club, which in turn allows you to buy better players, which in turn gives you a better chance of winning more trophies. That surely should be the aim of every professional football club. Or you could just try to avoid relegation year after year. Oh no! We tried that, guess what? It didn't work! We got relegated!
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Playing devil's advocate for a second, like someone said to me earlier, we accuse the club of not being interested but the best part of 15,000 were not either.
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Playing devil's advocate for a second, like someone said to me earlier, we accuse the club of not being interested but the best part of 15,000 were not either.
Could be a self-fulfilling cycle though. If club's can't be bothered, and every year the talk of the early rounds is how much clubs can't be bothered...
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Well i think everyone is interested in the financial aspect. We've all been moaning about FFP and how its affecting us. At the moment if we don't go up we're faced with possibly another season looking for bargain basement signings and if we got to the QF's of the cup, well frankly, £360,000 is gabby's wages for a few months.. Now imagine if a QF run gets you 10m. Then suddenly you have a dilemma where its actually financially worth getting to the QF's and if you get to the QF's you're 90 minutes away from the semi's and 20M. Changes the whole mindset i think,
Would you have been more concerned about yesterday if the prize money was greater? Like I keep saying, I get why people at the club might, but would you as a supporter? Is that what it has come down to? We can have more money to fail to compete with clubs in a higher division. I can accept there will be supporters who, unlike me, would rather be in the top flight than competing and going into matches and campaigns with uncertainty about the end result. Even I would rather be crap in the Premier League than crap in a lower division. But it's the competitive nature and shock value that draws me to football, not the income stream.
I get the FFP argument, although if we were handed £20m we'd probably spend £22m of it - and that isn't a typo. We, like the rest of football, don't follow the spirit of the law on FFP we find ways round it. But if we are using the need to get back to the top flight as our excuse this season, what about all the others? Is chasing income now the only goal? If so, again, the club can spare me the "Part of the Pride" nonsense and own its avarice.
Well maybe but you speak like this is a new thing and when the money was in the FA Cup, clubs didn't prioritise that competition. I certainly remember in the 80's Everton and others putting our crap teams before finals or semi's because the money was in the cup and not the league. in fact didn't coventry stay up because everton fielded a load of reserves. Now if that league game had been financially worth more than the cup final, the team may have been different
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When was this glory age when the FA Cup was worth more money? Weakened teams were fielded before semis and finals because there was a very good chance of winning a pot, not a pot of cash. Plus, the prize money is but one bit of it. You also get additional cash if you are picked for TV which is more likely if you progress. Forest are getting £144K in their bin from TV today. That's still a relatively small amount, but it's additional to league money.
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Playing devil's advocate for a second, like someone said to me earlier, we accuse the club of not being interested but the best part of 15,000 were not either.
Could be a self-fulfilling cycle though. If club's can't be bothered, and every year the talk of the early rounds is how much clubs can't be bothered...
I think it is as much a generational thing as anything else. Those of us who gre up in an era of the FA Cup Final being one of the few games you could watch live on TV and singing “7 times we’ve won it...” it was a massive deal. These days where you can watch football most days of the week from all around the world then it is inevitably is going to lose it’s must watch appeal.
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As well, Chris. Add in it's cold, it's right after Christmas when the cash has run out, it's usually against a side you aren't particularly interested in seeing us playing. It'll never be one reason, but I don't think what the fans think comes into it when a club decides if it wants to take the FA Cup as seriously as it could.
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Success breeds success. By winning trophies you raise the profile of the club, which in turn allows you to buy better players, which in turn gives you a better chance of winning more trophies. That surely should be the aim of every professional football club. Or you could just try to avoid relegation year after year. Oh no! We tried that, guess what? It didn't work! We got relegated!
Said the Wigan and Blues fans.
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Only six games. Yet we haven't won 6 in a row in 61 years. Maybe it's not quite so easy and even less easy these days.
It's not six in a row though is it? It's six individual games spread out over half a season.
I was chatting to someone yesterday about the FA cup, and even though our recent record is less than brilliant I remember our cup runs to the finals more so than just some random fixtures. I remember we played Wolves in the early 80s, think it may have been the fourth round. Villa Park was rammed and there were thousands of Wolves locked out. The FA cup means something special to us fans. It's a shame that the it doesn't mean as much to Steve Bruce and Co.
I don't recall Ron Saunders ever putting out a weakend team in any competition, but then again he set out to win every single game and managed to win a few trophies along the way and won the league using only 14 players.
That year we won the league with 14 players we went out in the opening round of both league cup and FA Cup...Ipswich reached the final of the UEFA Cup and Semi's of the FA Cup, maybe it took it's toll in the end on Ipswich.
I just don't get this mock outrage of our much changed squad on here. Can honestly anyone say they were surprised at the line up yesterday? Also people moaning about the ticket price yesterday..was it really that bad? £10-£15 and £1 for kids I would imagine is cheaper than games in the conference yesterday.
I was annoyed we got beat at home by lower league opposition with a weakened team, but this is down to some players attitude on the day more than the manager being crap..on this occasion.
Pedantic point - In 80-81 we beat Leeds in the League Cup round two before losing to Cambridge in round three and Ron Saunders might have put out a full-strength side but his comments afterwards (which I'll dig out later) showed where his priorities lay.
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Only six games. Yet we haven't won 6 in a row in 61 years. Maybe it's not quite so easy and even less easy these days.
It's not six in a row though is it? It's six individual games spread out over half a season.
I was chatting to someone yesterday about the FA cup, and even though our recent record is less than brilliant I remember our cup runs to the finals more so than just some random fixtures. I remember we played Wolves in the early 80s, think it may have been the fourth round. Villa Park was rammed and there were thousands of Wolves locked out. The FA cup means something special to us fans. It's a shame that the it doesn't mean as much to Steve Bruce and Co.
I don't recall Ron Saunders ever putting out a weakend team in any competition, but then again he set out to win every single game and managed to win a few trophies along the way and won the league using only 14 players.
That year we won the league with 14 players we went out in the opening round of both league cup and FA Cup...Ipswich reached the final of the UEFA Cup and Semi's of the FA Cup, maybe it took it's toll in the end on Ipswich.
I just don't get this mock outrage of our much changed squad on here. Can honestly anyone say they were surprised at the line up yesterday? Also people moaning about the ticket price yesterday..was it really that bad? £10-£15 and £1 for kids I would imagine is cheaper than games in the conference yesterday.
I was annoyed we got beat at home by lower league opposition with a weakened team, but this is down to some players attitude on the day more than the manager being crap..on this occasion.
Pedantic point - In 80-81 we beat Leeds in the League Cup round two before losing to Cambridge in round three and Ron Saunders might have put out a full-strength side but his comments afterwards (which I'll dig out later) showed where his priorities lay.
Maybe he said what he said because we lost, if he put out a full strength team, maybe he wanted to win it?
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In the Champions DVD Morley says Ron wasn't at all happy, mainly because of the money.
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I know it's unrealistic anymore to expect sides to take every competition seriously in pursuit of greater prizes. And not that I want to bring up this old nugget, but when MON did that in Moscow in pursuit of the CL there was an almighty outcry in some quarters. I accept this is somewhat on a lesser scale but the principle remains the same. There are still fans who paid good money to travel to the game yesterday so I don't like when losing is blown off as "it wasn't that important" because to some it would have been.
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Only six games. Yet we haven't won 6 in a row in 61 years. Maybe it's not quite so easy and even less easy these days.
It's not six in a row though is it? It's six individual games spread out over half a season.
I was chatting to someone yesterday about the FA cup, and even though our recent record is less than brilliant I remember our cup runs to the finals more so than just some random fixtures. I remember we played Wolves in the early 80s, think it may have been the fourth round. Villa Park was rammed and there were thousands of Wolves locked out. The FA cup means something special to us fans. It's a shame that the it doesn't mean as much to Steve Bruce and Co.
I don't recall Ron Saunders ever putting out a weakend team in any competition, but then again he set out to win every single game and managed to win a few trophies along the way and won the league using only 14 players.
That year we won the league with 14 players we went out in the opening round of both league cup and FA Cup...Ipswich reached the final of the UEFA Cup and Semi's of the FA Cup, maybe it took it's toll in the end on Ipswich.
I just don't get this mock outrage of our much changed squad on here. Can honestly anyone say they were surprised at the line up yesterday? Also people moaning about the ticket price yesterday..was it really that bad? £10-£15 and £1 for kids I would imagine is cheaper than games in the conference yesterday.
I was annoyed we got beat at home by lower league opposition with a weakened team, but this is down to some players attitude on the day more than the manager being crap..on this occasion.
Pedantic point - In 80-81 we beat Leeds in the League Cup round two before losing to Cambridge in round three and Ron Saunders might have put out a full-strength side but his comments afterwards (which I'll dig out later) showed where his priorities lay.
Maybe he said what he said because we lost, if he put out a full strength team, maybe he wanted to win it?
And maybe he wasn't that bothered.
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Ancient history now, but surely it was a bit premature not to be bothered about progressing in the League Cup in September so as to concentrate on the League title? It was hardly as if we were among the favourites at that embryonic stage of the season, nor with any recent track record. Still, hindsight and all that. Now if his eyes were on the bigger prize after the F.A. Cup defeat at Ipswich in the January, I can sort of understand - and, indeed, so if transpired.
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Ancient history now, but surely it was a bit premature not to be bothered about progressing in the League Cup in September so as to concentrate on the League title? It was hardly as if we were among the favourites at that embryonic stage of the season, nor with any recent track record. Still, hindsight and all that. Now if his eyes were on the bigger prize after the F.A. Cup defeat at Ipswich in the January, I can sort of understand - and, indeed, so if transpired.
"When did you think you'd win the league?"
"At the start of the season."
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We haven't won it since 1957. 61 years. I'm not sure it matters whether we play a weakened side or not.
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Do you know he wasn’t bothered? I don’t think you do, just your opinion. Doesn’t matter anyway
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As we were the best team.in the country and we lost to Cambridge. If we had been that bothered we'd have beat them.
Yesterday some of the players clearly echoed the sense from Bruce that he wasn't arsed. Only Hourihane pressed and looked decent.
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I know what he said at the time and I know what he said to me. I don't think he wasn't bothered about losing, I do think that like his attitude to international call-ups, he was ahead of his time and cared less than he did about league games.
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I know what he said at the time and I know what he said to me. I don't think he wasn't bothered about losing, I do think that like his attitude to international call-ups, he was ahead of his time and cared less than he did about league games.
Our performance in the league Cup the following season would suggest otherwise.
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Did we field a weakened side at Cambridge in the league cup in 1980? I just thought we had an off night with our first team.
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I know what he said at the time and I know what he said to me. I don't think he wasn't bothered about losing, I do think that like his attitude to international call-ups, he was ahead of his time and cared less than he did about league games.
Our performance in the league Cup the following season would suggest otherwise.
When we lost to the Albion?
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I know what he said at the time and I know what he said to me. I don't think he wasn't bothered about losing, I do think that like his attitude to international call-ups, he was ahead of his time and cared less than he did about league games.
Our performance in the league Cup the following season would suggest otherwise.
When we lost to the Albion?
That's right in the QF having played 5 tough matches to get there.
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I know what he said at the time and I know what he said to me. I don't think he wasn't bothered about losing, I do think that like his attitude to international call-ups, he was ahead of his time and cared less than he did about league games.
Our performance in the league Cup the following season would suggest otherwise.
When we lost to the Albion?
That's right in the QF having played 5 tough matches to get there.
Against Wolves, Wigan and Leicester. We were hardly battling tooth and nail, and in any case the situation was a bit different.
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I know what he said at the time and I know what he said to me. I don't think he wasn't bothered about losing, I do think that like his attitude to international call-ups, he was ahead of his time and cared less than he did about league games.
Our performance in the league Cup the following season would suggest otherwise.
When we lost to the Albion?
That's right in the QF having played 5 tough matches to get there.
Against Wolves, Wigan and Leicester. We were hardly battling tooth and nail, and in any case the situation was a bit different.
None of those games were push overs, we were never good enough to just brush teams aside . Wigan away was particularly tough. In any event the point is that Saunders played our strongest team irrespective of the fact that we were also competing in the European Cup.
The only occasion that I would accept that he may have deliberately sacrificed a cup game was Ipswich way in 75, and even then we gave it everything and could well have won. Furthermore it wasn't to prioritise league points it was to ensure as many players were as fit as possible for the League Cup final.
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In that cup run we, the league champions, beat one top flight club, over two legs and they ended up getting relegated. But I wasn't talking about then. What I said was that in 1980-81 he didn't seem as bothered about cup defeats as about league ones.
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In that cup run we, the league champions, beat one top flight club, over two legs and they ended up getting relegated. But I wasn't talking about then. What I said was that in 1980-81 he didn't seem as bothered about cup defeats as about league ones.
Sure, but my point is that if there was ever going to be a season that we might sacrifice the League Cup it was 81/82, but we didn't . we gave it our best shot including the QF against WBA when we lost principally due to the sending off of Tony Morley.
That suggests to me that the Cambridge defeat in 1980 had nothing to do with priorities particularly as we had made the effort to defeat Leeds in the previous round over 2 legs. It was just one of those things that can happen, unlike now when we we virtually invite defeat against lower league opposition.
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AVFC - The Pride Live🦁 #UTV asked the question;
What would add value to the FA Cup?
Discuss...
My reply was;
Play all rounds of the FA Cup on a Saturday, with a 3.00 pm kick off for starters. Give the winner a spot in the Champions League, instead of to the 4th place in the Premiership. Have semi finals anywhere but Wembley. Give each finalist half of the seats, and fuck the prawn sarnie brigade off! Register a 20 player squad who you have to pick from for the cup games. Think that would do for starters!!!
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Most recent example regarding us would be 2010.
When you break it down a very exciting season. Two exciting cup runs and very close to finishing 4th. Ultimately we ended up with nothing though. Would we have made CL if we'd gone out early of say the league club? Maybe not as we didn't in the previous two years when that happened under MON? Which out of finishing 4th or winning a cup would've tempted Milner to stay?
I believe since 2001 we've gone out of the 3rd round about 11 times so I just can't get worked up about going out on Saturday.
When we were a team that finished top 8 in the premier league that's when we had a team capable of winning the competition so disappointment was greater in those years (especially as we kept getting Man. United in the third round in those days).
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I don’t really care about blessings in disguise, preventing injuries, concentrating on the league. There’s always an excuse.
What I am heartily feckin sick of is continual humiliations to lower league shite that bring masses of day trippers and not only beat us but piss all over us without so much of a hint of fight from us. Whilst other clubs who have a continuous winning mentality rarely seem to have an issue competing in more than one competition.
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I agree kippax
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I know the infamous MON Moscow game is regularly mentioned on here but I never expected to see a debate on Ron Saunders attitude to a league Cup tie in 1980/81 to be dredged up. What next? Debating Tony Barton's seemingly bizarre decision to make a goalkeeping substitution early on in the European Cup final?
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And to think we woujldhavre have had more than a fist of a chance of making the 5th round, as I think we could have beaten Fleetwood or Gary the goat at Villa Park.
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I don’t really care about blessings in disguise, preventing injuries, concentrating on the league. There’s always an excuse.
What I am heartily feckin sick of is continual humiliations to lower league shite that bring masses of day trippers and not only beat us but piss all over us without so much of a hint of fight from us. Whilst other clubs who have a continuous winning mentality rarely seem to have an issue competing in more than one competition.
That's it - it's the acceptance of the result and the general lowering of expectations that makes me sad. It's been a gradual thing but we've reached the stage now where what would have been classed as a humiliation is almost shrugged off as an irrelevance. I thought Saturday's result was fucking rubbish and all the excuses/reasons for it not mattering make me even more cynical about the direction we're moving in. Peterborough, for Christ's sake.
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I don’t really care about blessings in disguise, preventing injuries, concentrating on the league. There’s always an excuse.
What I am heartily feckin sick of is continual humiliations to lower league shite that bring masses of day trippers and not only beat us but piss all over us without so much of a hint of fight from us. Whilst other clubs who have a continuous winning mentality rarely seem to have an issue competing in more than one competition.
That's it - it's the acceptance of the result and the general lowering of expectations that makes me sad. It's been a gradual thing but we've reached the stage now where what would have been classed as a humiliation is almost shrugged off as an irrelevance. I thought Saturday's result was fucking rubbish and all the excuses/reasons for it not mattering make me even more cynical about the direction we're moving in. Peterborough, for Christ's sake.
Top posts, completely agree.
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I don’t really care about blessings in disguise, preventing injuries, concentrating on the league. There’s always an excuse.
What I am heartily feckin sick of is continual humiliations to lower league shite that bring masses of day trippers and not only beat us but piss all over us without so much of a hint of fight from us. Whilst other clubs who have a continuous winning mentality rarely seem to have an issue competing in more than one competition.
That's it - it's the acceptance of the result and the general lowering of expectations that makes me sad. It's been a gradual thing but we've reached the stage now where what would have been classed as a humiliation is almost shrugged off as an irrelevance. I thought Saturday's result was fucking rubbish and all the excuses/reasons for it not mattering make me even more cynical about the direction we're moving in. Peterborough, for Christ's sake.
Top posts, completely agree.
Ditto. The more shit you accept the more shit you get.
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I felt that the cup was partly devalued when they moved the final K.O from 3pm, and the semis to Wembly rather than at grounds round the country.
I can understand why they did both of these, but I cant help feeling the romance of the cup was tarnised with it.
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I felt that the cup was partly devalued when they moved the final K.O from 3pm, and the semis to Wembly rather than at grounds round the country.
I can understand why they did both of these, but I cant help feeling the romance of the cup was tarnised with it.
They need to migrate one of the Champions League qualifying spots from the PL and grant it to the FA Cup winner instead. It's an easy argument as it would mean the spot actually goes to a champion, and it helps restores some prestige. It shouldn't be necessary, given that this is the FA Cup we're talking about, but here we are.
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I'm 56 yrs old. I've been a Villa fan for nearly 50 yrs and one of my life-time ambitions has been to see the Villa win the FA Cup. I promised my late Dad that I'd be there to see it and give the team a shout on his behalf, just as he did in 1957. Naively I thought that moment might have arrived on 30 May 2015.....
We're Aston Villa. We have a cup tradition that's the envy of most other clubs in the country. We are disrespecting the competition and our own history in accepting the sort of meek capitulation we witnessed on Saturday. It was Lambert-esque in its shit-ness, to be filed alongside Bradford, Orient, Millwall and Sheffield United. Totally unacceptable.
I don't care what other clubs do or think. It should be a minimum requirement at this club that we take all cups seriously at all times
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You must remember Villa 5 Liverpool 1 then!
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I'm 56 yrs old. I've been a Villa fan for nearly 50 yrs and one of my life-time ambitions has been to see the Villa win the FA Cup. I promised my late Dad that I'd be there to see it and give the team a shout on his behalf, just as he did in 1957. Naively I thought that moment might have arrived on 30 May 2015.....
We're Aston Villa. We have a cup tradition that's the envy of most other clubs in the country. We are disrespecting the competition and our own history in accepting the sort of meek capitulation we witnessed on Saturday. It was Lambert-esque in its shit-ness, to be filed alongside Bradford, Orient, Millwall and Sheffield United. Totally unacceptable.
I don't care what other clubs do or think. It should be a minimum requirement at this club that we take all cups seriously at all times
This
What makes it all the more annoying when our own fans state things like "its not like we are going to win it anyway" Surely the luck of the draw can throw up fixtures that enable any club to progress further - i.e. the next round Posh are drawn at home and have a good opportunity to progress
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I'm 56 yrs old. I've been a Villa fan for nearly 50 yrs and one of my life-time ambitions has been to see the Villa win the FA Cup. I promised my late Dad that I'd be there to see it and give the team a shout on his behalf, just as he did in 1957. Naively I thought that moment might have arrived on 30 May 2015.....
We're Aston Villa. We have a cup tradition that's the envy of most other clubs in the country. We are disrespecting the competition and our own history in accepting the sort of meek capitulation we witnessed on Saturday. It was Lambert-esque in its shit-ness, to be filed alongside Bradford, Orient, Millwall and Sheffield United. Totally unacceptable.
I don't care what other clubs do or think. It should be a minimum requirement at this club that we take all cups seriously at all times
This
What makes it all the more annoying when our own fans state things like "its not like we are going to win it anyway" Surely the luck of the draw can throw up fixtures that enable any club to progress further - i.e. the next round Posh are drawn at home and have a good opportunity to progress
That's precisely what fucked me off at the weekend. Would taking the Cup seriously have affected our attempts at promotion that much? Let's go nuts for a bit and say we won the thing it would have been an extra 5 games beyond Rd3 (without replays). Would an extra 5 games of trying to win a football match been that disruptive? How about the positive momentum and feel good factor? We need a bit of that.
I don't think for one second we'd have won it so realistically it would have been an extra 2 or 3 games at most. We have 20 leagues game left, so really would 23 have crippled our PL ambitions?
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I'm 56 yrs old. I've been a Villa fan for nearly 50 yrs and one of my life-time ambitions has been to see the Villa win the FA Cup. I promised my late Dad that I'd be there to see it and give the team a shout on his behalf, just as he did in 1957. Naively I thought that moment might have arrived on 30 May 2015.....
We're Aston Villa. We have a cup tradition that's the envy of most other clubs in the country. We are disrespecting the competition and our own history in accepting the sort of meek capitulation we witnessed on Saturday. It was Lambert-esque in its shit-ness, to be filed alongside Bradford, Orient, Millwall and Sheffield United. Totally unacceptable.
I don't care what other clubs do or think. It should be a minimum requirement at this club that we take all cups seriously at all times
This
What makes it all the more annoying when our own fans state things like "its not like we are going to win it anyway" Surely the luck of the draw can throw up fixtures that enable any club to progress further - i.e. the next round Posh are drawn at home and have a good opportunity to progress
That's precisely what fucked me off at the weekend. Would taking the Cup seriously have affected our attempts at promotion that much? Let's go nuts for a bit and say we won the thing it would have been an extra 5 games beyond Rd3 (without replays). Would an extra 5 games of trying to win a football match been that disruptive? How about the positive momentum and feel good factor? We need a bit of that.
I don't think for one second we'd have won it so realistically it would have been an extra 2 or 3 games at most. We have 20 leagues game left, so really would 23 have crippled our PL ambitions?
Toronto Villa..this is a really good post. I was in the category of not caring too much about Saturday's meek exit but I take your point about 3 4 or 5 games is unlikely to take that much out of our extremely well paid athletes. From my point of view promotion is the sole objective of this season. We have failed on our last 60 attempts to lift the FA Cup so I can live without it 1 more year if it guaranteed promotion. Having said that Bruce could have thrown in a few more regulars without it having an adverse effect on us going up.
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But the thing is, were we to somehow secure promotion and twelve months hence find ourselves in 17th place, what do you think the team selection/priorities will be then?
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JUST WIN A FCKN TROPHY, ESPECIALLY THE FA FCKN CUP. YOU USELESS SHOWER OF MONEY-GRABBING, STATUS-CRAVING, HALF-ARSED, CRAVEN BAG OF CU
I've never used all caps before. It's quite satisfying. Makes you type harder though.
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I think the only way you disrespect the cup is by fielding a side that's woefully sub par compared to the opposition it will be playing.
We didn't do that in any shape or form IMHO. I thought the line up was fair and should have easily had enough to do the job in hand.
Hence why it's not bothered me.
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Bristol City are at this moment drawing with Man City in the semi final of the league cup and up until a week ago we’re above us in the league. While they got knocked out at the weekend from the FA Cup they’ve played more games than us this season. We went out meekly vs Boro in round 3. So it is possible to have a cup run and still maintain focus on getting promoted.
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And they lose the leg.
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Alan Green
BBC Radio 5 live at Etihad Stadium
Every neutral in the country will be hoping that Bristol City can hang on..."
LOL. No. Some of us are delighted to see them fall flat on their face.
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I hope Bristol City get through, after extra time and penalties.
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And they lose the leg.
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Alan Green
BBC Radio 5 live at Etihad Stadium
Every neutral in the country will be hoping that Bristol City can hang on..."
LOL. No. Some of us are delighted to see them fall flat on their face.
We are not neutral in the context.
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JUST WIN A FCKN TROPHY, ESPECIALLY THE FA FCKN CUP. YOU USELESS SHOWER OF MONEY-GRABBING, STATUS-CRAVING, HALF-ARSED, CRAVEN BAG OF CU
I've never used all caps before. It's quite satisfying. Makes you type harder though.
DID WE DISS IT TO THE MAX????!???
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I hope Bristol City get through, after extra time and penalties.
That’s where I stand too. Losing the final in 1971 knocked the stuffing out of us.
But even without our interest I wanted them to win anyway. Am bored of the same old faces in finals.
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We're Aston Villa and we have traditions that people envy in this cup...despite not having won it in 61 years, getting on for half our history.
The Cuban Missle Crisis went down
Kennedy has been shot
Vietnam War happened
Man went to the moon (oh yes he did)
Concorde was invented
Concorde was mothballed
We joined the EU (as became)
We left the EU
The Soviet Union collapsed
Thatcher got elected. And again. And again.
New Labour came
New Labour went
We had Black Monday, Blue Monday and now Black Friday
Mao had a glorious Cultural Revolution
China became a Capitalist state
The Beatles released their first album
They released their last
Man United were just another club
The Munich Air Disaster happened
Hillsborough got covered up
A generation later justice started to happen
The Provisional IRA were born
The Provisional IRA laid down their weapons
Peace in Nothern Ireland
We won the league
We won the European Cup
We got relegated a handful of times. It happened again.
Genocide in Europe again
We went to war with Iraq. And again.
A handful of Saudis changed the world one late summer morning in New York
Nobody but us remember our traditions in this cup. 2000 and 2015 are two of the blackest days on the club's history with the two most feeble displays in the final I can recall. Nobody who didnt qualify for Saga Membership 15 years ago is envious of anything.
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This year, we use our promotion aims as reason for playing non-regulars. Next season, we'll be using staying up (if we are up!) as an excuse.
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It was 71 years between league titles, so i reckon that 2028 will defintely be our year for the FA Cup.
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Throwing the cup game dosen't seem that bad a call now.
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Cause and effect? Would we have lost yesterday if we'd beaten Peterborough? Or did we win because we were humiliated again? Or impossible to know?
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Cause and effect? Would we have lost yesterday if we'd beaten Peterborough? Or did we win because we were humiliated again? Or impossible to know?
We might have struggled to win yesterday if we'd have the runaround from Leicester on the previous Saturday I'd tentatively suggest.
Extra rest compared to Sheffield.
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It can work Both ways I totally agree but to let Peterborough beat us in our fa cup.
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We might have struggled to win yesterday if we'd have the runaround from Leicester on the previous Saturday I'd tentatively suggest.
Extra rest compared to Sheffield.
Yep, that was what did it. You could tell from the 90 minutes our keeper spent leaning against his post that United were dead on their feet. It was no struggle to win on Tuesday.
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Cause and effect? Would we have lost yesterday if we'd beaten Peterborough? Or did we win because we were humiliated again? Or impossible to know?
We might have struggled to win yesterday if we'd have the runaround from Leicester on the previous Saturday I'd tentatively suggest.
Extra rest compared to Sheffield.
They had most of the possession and all of the best chances. They looked sharper and fitter than us for most of the game. That they played an FA Cup a couple days prior had zero affect on their energy levels. We won it with a piece of magic. They could have won it much earlier had Sam Johnstone not decided to become Gordon Banks.
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Cause and effect? Would we have lost yesterday if we'd beaten Peterborough? Or did we win because we were humiliated again? Or impossible to know?
We might have struggled to win yesterday if we'd have the runaround from Leicester on the previous Saturday I'd tentatively suggest.
Extra rest compared to Sheffield.
They had most of the possession and all of the best chances. They looked sharper and fitter than us for most of the game. That they played an FA Cup a couple days prior had zero affect on their energy levels. We won it with a piece of magic. They could have won it much earlier had Sam Johnstone not decided to become Gordon Banks.
It's all conjecture either way. I'm happy enough that we're concentrating on the league for the remainder of the season.
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They looked better first half, but second half there wasn't much in it and the only period of pressure they had was when Snodders went down injured and after we'd scored.
Most of the Sheffield United side against us didn't play against Preston anyway.
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So we have no idea whether winning or losing a cup tie makes a blind bit of difference to your league results. Who'd have thought it? Mind you, if someone out there does know there is a cause and effect maybe we shouldn't enter cup competitions and we certainly shouldn't charge to watch them.
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So we have no idea whether winning or losing a cup tie makes a blind bit of difference to your league results. Who'd have thought it? Mind you, if someone out there does know there is a cause and effect maybe we shouldn't enter cup competitions and we certainly shouldn't charge to watch them.
No, but we do know managers throughout the land complain of fixture congestion and it's impact on overall performance in a busy season.
So whilst you can't draw a conclusion from a single game, it doesn't take a huge leap to believe a long cup run could be counter productive.
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Bristol City barely won a game between their two Manchester cup ties.
Just to reiterate I was disappointed we lost but surprised at all the wailing on here, people on here demanding Bruce get sacked for that game alone, threads specifically being created of how low as a club we've sunk etc.
Most of the past 60 years we've been going out at 3rd or 4th round season so it was nothing new.
Call me odd but usually teams have a better chance of winning the FA cup when they're finishing top 6 in the premier league.
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The team selected was easily good enough to win. The players selected let themselves down that day. But it's water udner the bridge and I'm enjoying the league wins too much to give it another thought.
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I was disappointed that we went out so early. It may well do us good in the long run this season but I still wish we were in it.
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I feel that this is going to be a never-ending loop of cup disrespect. We go up and we will need to 'cement' our lowly status in the Sky Wanky League, we stay down we will need to 'prioritise' our next promotion 'challenge'. Unless Tony comes up with the billions so that we can become an obnoxious marketing tool like Citeh. :-(
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I feel that this is going to be a never-ending loop of cup disrespect. We go up and we will need to 'cement' our lowly status in the Sky Wanky League, we stay down we will need to 'prioritise' our next promotion 'challenge'. Unless Tony comes up with the billions so that we can become an obnoxious marketing tool like Citeh. :-(
Not at all. How long it takes I couldn't predict but when you establish yourselves in the top half of the premier league both cups should be a serious priority to win as you then have a decent team.
We obviously should've won something in the MON years as we had good teams then. Apart from his last season our other seasons were underwhelming in the cups and of course Moscow goes into its own separate thread, far worse than what SB did.
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When we establish ourselves where? 😲
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When we establish ourselves where? 😲
I've recently started following Strasbourg. Great story. Reasonably sized and supported French club but they had terrible financial issues and went down to the French minor leagues I think?
Two promotions later they're back in the top division and are doing alright, clear of relegation and looking to get back in the top half.
Doubt their fans care too much that they wouldn't be able to challenge PSG or Marseille for the next decade.
More about geting some respect and achievement back into the club which we are slowly doing.
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I think we've just been shit in the FA Cup for about three generations, simple as that.
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Just about every club gives the same priority to cups as we do now but it's only us who seem to take it personally.
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Look, I'm from Birmingham, I'm a misery guts, that's all.
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I think we've just been shit in the FA Cup for about three generations, simple as that.
That's view as well
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Managers come up with excuses all the time. Whether it's we can't compete with the Doncasters of this world, the shirts are the wrong shade of grey or that was never a penalty. For every cub that's done well (which nowadays seems to equate with finishing 17th in the top flight for most) and gone out of the cups early, there's a Moscow or a relegation season. Meanwhile, the winners of the cups in recent decades also tend to do well in the league regardless of their moans about fixture congestion.
My issue isn't particularly with Bruce because if you are good enough to play for the Villa first team you should be good enough not to be humiliated by lower division sides on an increasingly frequent basis. My problem is the excuses and silver linings follow the defeats while beforehand we are implored to give up our hard earned to chase the dream. If bosses and clubs really don't want the extra fixtures, don't enter the bloody thing. Otherwise, you know what your number of fixtures could be and plan accordingly. Either way, don't claim before 3pm you are desperate to do well for the fans then spend the next 90 minutes royally screwing it up season after season. When it comes down to it, give me a League Cup and League Two ahead of Premier League survival and an insipid capitulation in the knockouts. I appreciate I'm a dying breed in this respect.
I'm also not sure today's players have the slightest clue about how good or bad we were in cups three decades ago. Again, cause and effect?
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Managers come up with excuses all the time. Whether it's we can't compete with the Doncasters of this world, the shirts are the wrong shade of grey or that was never a penalty. For every cub that's done well (which nowadays seems to equate with finishing 17th in the top flight for most) and gone out of the cups early, there's a Moscow or a relegation season. Meanwhile, the winners of the cups in recent decades also tend to do well in the league regardless of their moans about fixture congestion.
My issue isn't particularly with Bruce because if you are good enough to play for the Villa first team you should be good enough not to be humiliated by lower division sides on an increasingly frequent basis. My problem is the excuses and silver linings follow the defeats while beforehand we are implored to give up our hard earned to chase the dream. If bosses and clubs really don't want the extra fixtures, don't enter the bloody thing. Otherwise, you know what your number of fixtures could be and plan accordingly. Either way, don't claim before 3pm you are desperate to do well for the fans then spend the next 90 minutes royally screwing it up season after season. When it comes down to it, give me a League Cup and League Two ahead of Premier League survival and an insipid capitulation in the knockouts. I appreciate I'm a dying breed in this respect.
I'm also not sure today's players have the slightest clue about how good or bad we were in cups three decades ago. Again, cause and effect?
I agree with all of that
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maybe it's an age thing
I bet if you did the analysis the younger generation don't care as much about the cups as the older ones amongst us, it's no ones fault just different priorities we have been bought up with
I'm in my 50's and absolutely hate it when we go out of the cups and see no silver linings
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maybe it's an age thing
I bet if you did the analysis the younger generation don't care as much about the cups as the older ones amongst us, it's no ones fault just different priorities we have been bought up with
I'm in my 50's and absolutely hate it when we go out of the cups and see no silver linings
I'd love to see us win a major cup trophy (second place shields or Intertoto cup don't count).
I just realise some seasons we're more capable of mounting decent cup runs than others.
The MON years we obviously could compete more as we did in 09/10. Not just getting to the fourth round but making semis and finals.