Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: ciggiesnbeer on November 07, 2017, 08:41:19 PM
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I looked I couldnt find he had his own thread. Please merge if there is one.
So. Over a year in, time for reflection perhaps.
Mine:
Everton has clearly not done very well without him.
I think our squad is now solid, dare I say good? He would get the blame if it was crap, so I give him credit as its not.
A few misses on transfers, but also some very good pick ups.
Finally he has hired two managers, both I thought were decent choices. Certainly not the same as the shitshow hires we went through before him.
Your thoughts?
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I don't think there's much to say right now, his reputation is banked entirely on Bruce for me. If Bruce manages to push on and get us into the top 2 then Wyness gets credit for sticking with him in the summer when he had more than enough reason to sack him. If we don't get up this season then Wyness gets as much blame as anyone for me.
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Our efforts to return to the top division last season were pitiful. Little or no evidence of board governance over management spend, key issue during the Lerner era that got us where we are. While we have a strong squad for this division, it's unbalanced in key areas and many of the signings made in Wyness time alone already seem surplus to requirements.
Bruce fails, Wyness needs to fall on his sword.
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Like most judge them when we're back in the premier league imo.
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Let's not compare him just yet to previous regimes. He is managing a club in the lower tier than the others did and not doing all that well. Two reasonably mediocre appointments and a it appears a fair bit of money has been wasted in the 3 transfer windows under his stewardship. So let's wait.
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The appointment Wyness made were both solid and with a good pedigree for this division. It could also be reasonably argued that sacking Bruce in the Summer would have been taking chopping and changing to a ridiculous degree given the merry go round that has been taking place in the last 3 years.
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The appointment Wyness made were both solid and with a good pedigree for this division. It could also be reasonably argued that sacking Bruce in the Summer would have been taking chopping and changing to a ridiculous degree given the merry go round that has been taking place in the last 3 years.
That's not an argument to be had right now though. If we get promoted then he'll have made a good decision, if we miss out on it he won't have.
I refuse to accept that they didn't set targets for Bruce last season and I also refuse to accept that those targets will have been met by finishing in the bottom half so I believe that Wyness chose to keep faith in a manager who he liked and that he thought could deliver more than he had. If you do that you have to be certain that he's going to meet his targets for the next year and right now that's very much in the balance.
I also really don't like the argument that keeping Bruce even if he's not doing well is the right thing to do because we were too quick to sack Sherwood, Garde and RDM, mainly because it's used regularly by people who were calling for RDM to go 2-3 games before he did and who wanted Garde gone by about the February, I don't know if that includes you though. If you think a manager needs to be given a season/3 windows/50 games/whatever before you make a decision then at least apply that consistently.
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We can't really judge the new leadership until we see a full set of accounts, either.
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I think last season could be seen as a missed opportunity. In our (admittedly understandable) desperation to get back up, we threw an awful lot of money at the team, without a clear plan. Even in January, we were still buying players that didn't seem to fit with our style of play. And all the while Davis, RHM, O'Hare etc were not getting a look in. They may not have been ready last year, but might have benefitted from a few more appearances off the bench.
I think the 'get up and then start planning' policy is pretty underwhelming. If it gets us up this year, fine, but if it doesn't we will have wasted an awful lot of money and possibly our best two shots at promotion. Having said that, if we'd have taken a different route, things could have got worse, so it was probably the safest option. Just not very inspiring.
As others have said, it all depends on this year. If we go up, he'd have done a good job. If we don't, he'd have failed. That could be said about pretty much everyone at the club though!
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By hook or by crook we will get out of the championship sooner or later (probably needs to be this year as think next year will be very difficult with the changes we'd have to make to the squad).
I don't believe we'll be in exile for decades at this level like Sheff Weds. and Leeds have been in any case.
You don't need genius management decisions to get promoted from this division although we're having a good crack at making it look near impossible.
Anyway to me back in the premier league is the real time to judge. Will Xia have a go like Lerner did in his first four seasons? Will we actually make sure we have a proper idea of how we want to appoint managers when the time comes to let SB go? Will we have a clear definition of how we play and the overall culture inside the club.
Some of those things and how well/badly we do then will be the difference between re-establishing ourselves in the top 10 like a Southampton/Leicester or just bumbling along at the bottom like we did from 2010.
Look at the premier league this season, it is incredibly poor below the top 6. You don't need to spend 200m to finish 9th as Burnley could do it spending about £2.50 this summer.
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Only one measurement for both Wyness and Bruce = promotion
Year one - failed
Year 2 - Better than year one but not totally convincing even for the lottery that is the play offs - certainly failing on anticipation of top 2 atm
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I'm not convinced we will make the Premier League. We look too disjointed and haven't yet given me the belief that we as a team belong in a division higher than this. If we do get promoted I could see this team getting drubbed weekly. We haven't taken this opportunity to build something lasting and positive. Talk of 'The Villa Engine' is nice but the first team don't play it, so, erm, what's the point?
Wyness seems like a good chap but if we don't get promoted then I would have to question his approach.
Maybe I'm asking for too much too soon.
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Last season was always going to be a big ask whoever was in charge, we were in an absolute mess.
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Only one measurement for both Wyness and Bruce = promotion
Year one - failed
Year 2 - Better than year one but not totally convincing even for the lottery that is the play offs - certainly failing on anticipation of top 2 atm
It's not quite as cut and shut as that though. We have had years and years of mismanagement which will not or can not be fixed overnight.
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Fixed overnight? Maybe not, but fixed in months, why not? The money is there, we are told. Get rid of the negatives in the club, be they players, management, backroom staff, whatever. Just do it.
We miss out this year and wilderness years as experienced by others may follow.
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Poor thus far.
I expected better in the post Lerner era, but we seem set on repeating a lot of the same mistakes albeit at a lower level.
Must do better or go.
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Does anyone have a email address for Keith Wyness?
I've tried the @avfc.co.uk route and it's bounced back
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I really don't think that it's Wyness fault. He was put in place by Tony to help Tony with the decision making process. Tony ultimately has the final say but Keith is there to provide his opinion, pull the information together, execute the process etc. Keith is involved in all aspects of the club not just the playing field. That is Bruce's domain. So if Bruce does fail, then there is no reason for Keith to go as well.
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He’s taken over at a different period in our history. From the outside the club appears to have stabilised so fair dues. Don’t think for one one moment that bruce’s Performance will directly impact on him directly
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I'm not convinced we will make the Premier League. We look too disjointed and haven't yet given me the belief that we as a team belong in a division higher than this. If we do get promoted I could see this team getting drubbed weekly. We haven't taken this opportunity to build something lasting and positive. Talk of 'The Villa Engine' is nice but the first team don't play it, so, erm, what's the point?
Wyness seems like a good chap but if we don't get promoted then I would have to question his approach.
Maybe I'm asking for too much too soon.
We will get up eventually. Have faith.
Better to try to do it this season as next season would be very difficult I reckon. Doubt likes of Kodjia and Chester would stay another year at this level and then we have the OAPs in the squad being a year older.
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Does anyone have a email address for Keith Wyness?
I've tried the @avfc.co.uk route and it's bounced back
He has a twitter account if that helps.
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in exile
what you want to ask him then
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Last season was always going to be a big ask whoever was in charge, we were in an absolute mess.
Indeed. Also Sunderland is making our last season look a whole lot better.
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"We will get up eventually " I am sure leeds and forest have thought that for years.
This year or we could be adrift a while
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Clubs who have spent decades in the lower leagues.
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Nothing strikes me as over dramaticising the situation than thinking we're never going to get promoted again and will spend the rest of our history down here.
I'm well aware likes of Forest, Leeds and Sheff Weds didn't get up but when you look at those three they all had major financial difficulties after being relegated and all were relegated within a few years of coming down here.
We're in a much strong position and should be challenging every year for promotion which we are doing this season.
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All are clubs who've spent a good old chunk of their history being shit.
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Are some of the people asking for Wyness to go have also been claiming that we need stability?? be honest with yourselves here.
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Are some of the people asking for Wyness to go have also been claiming that we need stability?? be honest with yourselves here.
Has anyone asked for that? A few people have suggested that he will have to accept a big chunk of responsibility if we're not promoted this season, but that's far from the same thing.
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Last season was always going to be a big ask whoever was in charge, we were in an absolute mess.
Newcastle were in a mess too but they fairly well stormed back up while getting rid of Sissoko, Wijnaldum etc. Benitez had a plan though and his signings clearly reflected that.
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Last season was always going to be a big ask whoever was in charge, we were in an absolute mess.
Newcastle were in a mess too but they fairly well stormed back up while getting rid of Sissoko, Wijnaldum etc. Benitez had a plan though and his signings clearly reflected that.
They did keep their very good manager and were no where near as bad as we were.
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Last season was always going to be a big ask whoever was in charge, we were in an absolute mess.
Newcastle were in a mess too but they fairly well stormed back up while getting rid of Sissoko, Wijnaldum etc. Benitez had a plan though and his signings clearly reflected that.
They did keep their very good manager and were no where near as bad as we were.
Was Newcastle's squad that much better than ours should have been by the end of last summer?
RDM fucked up because he didn't left some gaps in the squad and then we, as a club, compounded it by changing direction after 11 games and going with a manager who wasn't suited to the squad we had.
Bruce then scattered money around in January trying to make it more like his sort of squad but left himself with very little to spend this summer and us with 3-4 signings that just don't fit because he didn't plan out how he wanted the players to fit in. He made similar mistakes this summer which is why, for the last few weeks our left side has been a right back and a right winger. Both have done a decent job but because we have no one who can cross with their left foot we're really predictable on that side on the pitch.
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The jury is out. I've heard him talking the usual PR bollocks but but ultimately it's a results business and he will be judged on how his decisions have impacted our results and progress.
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My concern with Wyness is that he doesn't see himself as accountable for all that much. He is an arch delegator.
Not making much out of merchandising? Outsource it.
Need to have a football philosophy at the club? Bring in Round.
I have met him a couple of times and he is a nice bloke but he certainly isn't a hands on Chief Exec by any stretch.
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Last season was always going to be a big ask whoever was in charge, we were in an absolute mess.
Newcastle were in a mess too but they fairly well stormed back up while getting rid of Sissoko, Wijnaldum etc. Benitez had a plan though and his signings clearly reflected that.
They did keep their very good manager and were no where near as bad as we were.
Was Newcastle's squad that much better than ours should have been by the end of last summer?
RDM fucked up because he didn't left some gaps in the squad and then we, as a club, compounded it by changing direction after 11 games and going with a manager who wasn't suited to the squad we had.
Bruce then scattered money around in January trying to make it more like his sort of squad but left himself with very little to spend this summer and us with 3-4 signings that just don't fit because he didn't plan out how he wanted the players to fit in. He made similar mistakes this summer which is why, for the last few weeks our left side has been a right back and a right winger. Both have done a decent job but because we have no one who can cross with their left foot we're really predictable on that side on the pitch.
Gayle and JonJo Shelvey were much better players in their positions than what we had.
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My concern with Wyness is that he doesn't see himself as accountable for all that much. He is an arch delegator.
Not making much out of merchandising? Outsource it.
Need to have a football philosophy at the club? Bring in Round.
I have met him a couple of times and he is a nice bloke but he certainly isn't a hands on Chief Exec by any stretch.
That to me sounds like a good CEO. He cant do everything on his own so he needs to bring in people to do it. Most clubs outsource a lot of their merchandising and other work. Saves having a huge workforce. I'm concerned if he is making the right business decision when making decisions.
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Last season was always going to be a big ask whoever was in charge, we were in an absolute mess.
Newcastle were in a mess too but they fairly well stormed back up while getting rid of Sissoko, Wijnaldum etc. Benitez had a plan though and his signings clearly reflected that.
They did keep their very good manager and were no where near as bad as we were.
Was Newcastle's squad that much better than ours should have been by the end of last summer?
RDM fucked up because he didn't left some gaps in the squad and then we, as a club, compounded it by changing direction after 11 games and going with a manager who wasn't suited to the squad we had.
Bruce then scattered money around in January trying to make it more like his sort of squad but left himself with very little to spend this summer and us with 3-4 signings that just don't fit because he didn't plan out how he wanted the players to fit in. He made similar mistakes this summer which is why, for the last few weeks our left side has been a right back and a right winger. Both have done a decent job but because we have no one who can cross with their left foot we're really predictable on that side on the pitch.
Gayle and JonJo Shelvey were much better players in their positions than what we had.
Gayle 'much better' than Kodjia, really?
Shelvey is shit but I'll give you that our midfield was pathetic at the start of last season so you're correct. If we'd used the Fat Ross money on a decent centre midfielder though I think we could've bridged that one fairly easily.
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Shelvey isn't s*** but he does have a big attitude problem. Let's remember we started last season with Tishbola, Westwood, Gary Gardner and Bacuna as our central midfield options.
I was more basing it on what we started the season with. Gestede, Ayew etc. Decent players but we couldn't get the best out of them.
Newcastle got off to a good start (after losing the first two they won their next six I think) we didn't and the damage was done.
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Does anyone have a email address for Keith Wyness?
I've tried the @avfc.co.uk route and it's bounced back
He has a twitter account if that helps.
Not really, it's a private email I need to send
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in exile
what you want to ask him then
Trying to get you banned from Villa Park
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Last season was always going to be a big ask whoever was in charge, we were in an absolute mess.
Newcastle were in a mess too but they fairly well stormed back up while getting rid of Sissoko, Wijnaldum etc. Benitez had a plan though and his signings clearly reflected that.
They did keep their very good manager and were no where near as bad as we were.
Was Newcastle's squad that much better than ours should have been by the end of last summer?
RDM fucked up because he didn't left some gaps in the squad and then we, as a club, compounded it by changing direction after 11 games and going with a manager who wasn't suited to the squad we had.
Bruce then scattered money around in January trying to make it more like his sort of squad but left himself with very little to spend this summer and us with 3-4 signings that just don't fit because he didn't plan out how he wanted the players to fit in. He made similar mistakes this summer which is why, for the last few weeks our left side has been a right back and a right winger. Both have done a decent job but because we have no one who can cross with their left foot we're really predictable on that side on the pitch.
Snodgrass can cross with his left foot but does so from the right side of the pitch. I have frothed at the mouth against Fulham and Wednesday as he keeps cutting inside to his left foot but have been told he refuses to play on the left. Is that correct?
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He doesn't refuse, he just isn't as effective and prefers the right.
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Does anyone have a email address for Keith Wyness?
I've tried the @avfc.co.uk route and it's bounced back
He has a twitter account if that helps.
Not really, it's a private email I need to send
Tweet at him and ask for contact details. I'm sure that what you want to say is very important to you, but may be not to him
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Shelvey isn't s*** but he does have a big attitude problem. Let's remember we started last season with Tishbola, Westwood, Gary Gardner and Bacuna as our central midfield options.
I was more basing it on what we started the season with. Gestede, Ayew etc. Decent players but we couldn't get the best out of them.
Newcastle got off to a good start (after losing the first two they won their next six I think) we didn't and the damage was done.
Shelvey is shit, why he's shit is questionable but his record and most of his performances are shit, 1 good game in 10-15 when he can be bothered doesn't change that.
Are you differentiating between start of the season and end of the summer window because I think that's a pretty strange way to look at it. Kodjia missed, because of the time he signed, about 3-4 games, not insignificant but not enough that you can discount him as being part of the squad we went into the season with.
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"We will get up eventually " I am sure leeds and forest have thought that for years.
This year or we could be adrift a while
Leeds and Forest also had to endure relegations to League One to enjoy promotion success.
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Does anyone have a email address for Keith Wyness?
I've tried the @avfc.co.uk route and it's bounced back
He has a twitter account if that helps.
Not really, it's a private email I need to send
Tweet at him and ask for contact details. I'm sure that what you want to say is very important to you, but may be not to him
Good idea
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Message from the CEO.
keith wyness
keith wyness
@retsub12
Everyone doing all we can to get things back on track, all leave cancelled and every hard question being asked, together we must turn it round, everyone knows the reality
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Message from the CEO.
keith wyness
keith wyness
@retsub12
Everyone doing all we can to get things back on track, all leave cancelled and every hard question being asked, together we must turn it round, everyone knows the reality
All not well at the Engine.
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All leave cancelled? What the effing hell does that mean? and what difference will that actually make to the running of the first team?
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No one off for new year's, you can ring in the bleedin' new year at Bodymoor Heath.
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What a pointless statement....
I appreciate the fact that he felt the need to communicate to the fans given the December debacle thus far, however that has not helped in the slightest. Sounds patronising to me.
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Wyness was appointed by Our Tone as ceo. His brief would be virtually all-encompassing, I'd imagine, including hiring and firing the manager. I'd proffer that the reason why he's stuck his head above the parapet now is purely because he's had a rather irate chairman on the phone of late telling him to f***ing sort this f***ing s**t out f***ing NOW.
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All leave cancelled? What the effing hell does that mean? and what difference will that actually make to the running of the first team?
I thought the same thing.
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All leave cancelled...hopefully means everyone looking for a new manager, although I doubt it.
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Don’t read too much into the words. More the message. I’m just taking it as things are well and it needs to be fixed and they get the urgency. Optimistically it means they told Bruce fix it now or your out your ear after Boro.
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It’s almost impossible to say anything in these circumstances that will go down well.
He obviously feels under pressure to make a statement and to show that they are aware of the situation.
“ all leave cancelled “ is a bit odd.
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All leave cancelled? What the effing hell does that mean? and what difference will that actually make to the running of the first team?
You're taking it literally. It is a figure of speech which suggests that everyone is giving 100% to improve things. Hrs not saying they're eating Xmas dinner at BMH or something.
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Message from the CEO.
keith wyness
keith wyness
@retsub12
Everyone doing all we can to get things back on track, all leave cancelled and every hard question being asked, together we must turn it round, everyone knows the reality
For me, the bolded bits are the most significant: this is the question about the manager's future, I reckon.
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That was the name of our operation in Iraq, TELIC, tell everyone leave is cancelled.
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All leave cancelled? What the effing hell does that mean? and what difference will that actually make to the running of the first team?
You're taking it literally. It is a figure of speech which suggests that everyone is giving 100% to improve things. Hrs not saying they're eating Xmas dinner at BMH or something.
Of course I'm taking it literally. What did they eat for Xmas dinner? You'd have thought they'd have gone to the Belfry and not BMH wouldn't you?
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All leave cancelled? What the effing hell does that mean? and what difference will that actually make to the running of the first team?
You're taking it literally. It is a figure of speech which suggests that everyone is giving 100% to improve things. Hrs not saying they're eating Xmas dinner at BMH or something.
Even Micah Richards?
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My new boss at work happens to be a former pro footballer and a short term contracts director of football. Really clued up and knows lots of people. Gave me a story about his club hosting the pre-match meal for the Villa Directors. Steve Round took his son, Wyness took a mate along with him, my boss felt that they were not professional enough for such a big club. He came away thinking that there is absolutely zero football knowledge on the Villa Board. He described Steve Round is a frustrated coach and lacks depth of knowledge in how to run a whole football club. My boss once interviewed Bruce for a job and describes him as a serial survivor but needs money, lacks personality. He feels that Villa are easy to mug off due to the lack of nous on the Board. I agree with him.
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My new boss at work happens to be a former pro footballer and a short term contracts director of football. Really clued up and knows lots of people. Gave me a story about his club hosting the pre-match meal for the Villa Directors. Steve Round took his son, Wyness took a mate along with him, my boss felt that they were not professional enough for such a big club. He came away thinking that there is absolutely zero football knowledge on the Villa Board. He described Steve Round is a frustrated coach and lacks depth of knowledge in how to run a whole football club. My boss once interviewed Bruce for a job and describes him as a serial survivor but needs money, lacks personality. He feels that Villa are easy to mug off due to the lack of nous on the Board. I agree with him.
I’m always wary about stories from vague sources.
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Its more the absence of exposure to anything other than the poorly prepared cheese cake for desert that enables somebody to extrapolate an intricate understanding of how a corporate structure works, that has me wary.
That cheese cake really was poor.
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All leave cancelled? What the effing hell does that mean? and what difference will that actually make to the running of the first team?
You're taking it literally. It is a figure of speech which suggests that everyone is giving 100% to improve things. Hrs not saying they're eating Xmas dinner at BMH or something.
Even Micah Richards?
He's probably in his santa costume, screaming with laughter.
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He's probably in his santa costume, screaming with laughter.
...and standing 10 yards away from the Christmas Tree where he should be standing.
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My new boss at work happens to be a former pro footballer and a short term contracts director of football. Really clued up and knows lots of people. Gave me a story about his club hosting the pre-match meal for the Villa Directors. Steve Round took his son, Wyness took a mate along with him, my boss felt that they were not professional enough for such a big club. He came away thinking that there is absolutely zero football knowledge on the Villa Board. He described Steve Round is a frustrated coach and lacks depth of knowledge in how to run a whole football club. My boss once interviewed Bruce for a job and describes him as a serial survivor but needs money, lacks personality. He feels that Villa are easy to mug off due to the lack of nous on the Board. I agree with him.
You really know how to cheer a chap up.
Round has only been in a DoF role for 13 months so it's little surprise he knows/knew little about running a football club. As for being a frustrated coach, that I can fully believe as that's what he'd done for the previous 15 years.
Wyness I'd never call a football man.
Bruce lacks personality? Let's just say from his press conferences I wouldn't describe him as Mr Motivator but what he's like on match days I've no idea. Quite why he needs the money I fail to understand. He must have made a fair bit over the years and he has a place over here in Quinta do Lago that don't come cheap.
Did you boss mug us off last summer?
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If someone shares itk's you can ignore and not scorn y'know.
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I trust you weren't referring to me, Eamonn. FWIW I find Newby's insightful tale very believable.
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In what way Rudy?
I'm not itk by the way and don't pretend to be.
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Message from the CEO.
keith wyness
keith wyness
@retsub12
Everyone doing all we can to get things back on track, all leave cancelled and every hard question being asked, together we must turn it round, everyone knows the reality
Not sure peoples holidays needs to be cancelled (always a panick move by any CEO like when they start focusing on work hours) but I am glad he is looking at the manager.
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Does that mean extra time on the training field doing fuck all like the previous 18months?
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Did one of the clubs he works with - I saw the list before you edited - sell us a player last summer? Just putting 2+2 together.
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Nothing in Rounds CV suggests that he should be DOF at The Villa.
Note he fell out with Southgate at Boro.
Looks like the old boy network is in full swing where mediocre hires incompetance.
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My daughter a month or two back took on a man whose CV claimed that he had previously been a director of Leyton Orient. He proved to be both plausible and barking in equal measure. Back on medication. Him not me.
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Actually Round is Technical Director not DoF.
He's certainly qualified for the job as was explained when he joined us.
https://www.avfc.co.uk/News/2016/09/01/round-appointed
Whether recruitment should be part of his remit is another story. Maybe he compiles the data on targets and presents them to Xia and Wyness.
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Actually Round is Technical Director not DoF.
He's certainly qualified for the job as was explained when he joined us.
https://www.avfc.co.uk/News/2016/09/01/round-appointed
Whether recruitment should be part of his remit is another story. Maybe he compiles the data on targets and presents them to Xia and Wyness.
Not sure how that explains he is qualified, never held the post before, has done an MSC.
Wiki says he is DOF.
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I trust you weren't referring to me, Eamonn. FWIW I find Newby's insightful tale very believable.
No, agree with you, I meant Ads and the Xx.
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Pravda says DOF too.
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All leave cancelled? What the effing hell does that mean? and what difference will that actually make to the running of the first team?
You're taking it literally. It is a figure of speech which suggests that everyone is giving 100% to improve things. Hrs not saying they're eating Xmas dinner at BMH or something.
Even Micah Richards?
He's probably in his santa costume, screaming with laughter.
Micah top scorer in the Manc celeb 10 pin bowling league apparently. Beat both Ashley Young and Lady Gaga.
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My new boss at work happens to be a former pro footballer and a short term contracts director of football. Really clued up and knows lots of people. Gave me a story about his club hosting the pre-match meal for the Villa Directors. Steve Round took his son, Wyness took a mate along with him, my boss felt that they were not professional enough for such a big club. He came away thinking that there is absolutely zero football knowledge on the Villa Board. He described Steve Round is a frustrated coach and lacks depth of knowledge in how to run a whole football club. My boss once interviewed Bruce for a job and describes him as a serial survivor but needs money, lacks personality. He feels that Villa are easy to mug off due to the lack of nous on the Board. I agree with him.
Everton in my mind, are a big club. Not doubting you, but whenever a club is in a mess, people always seem to come out with these stories. Why never before?
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My new boss at work happens to be a former pro footballer and a short term contracts director of football. Really clued up and knows lots of people. Gave me a story about his club hosting the pre-match meal for the Villa Directors. Steve Round took his son, Wyness took a mate along with him, my boss felt that they were not professional enough for such a big club. He came away thinking that there is absolutely zero football knowledge on the Villa Board. He described Steve Round is a frustrated coach and lacks depth of knowledge in how to run a whole football club. My boss once interviewed Bruce for a job and describes him as a serial survivor but needs money, lacks personality. He feels that Villa are easy to mug off due to the lack of nous on the Board. I agree with him.
I appreciate you trying to share some wisdom here, and you are passing on the message that you received, but you always have to read between the lines.
It isn't a big deal if Round and Wyness brings other people along. What did your boss think that they should have done? I saw a Wigan director last year with his kid at VP. They were having a good day out. If business is to be conducted then I don't that they would bring a kid along.
Your boss is no longer in football. Why is that? Perhaps he is a failed football director and he opinion on others doesn't carry a lot of weight. What football knowledge does he has? Round was a coach and first team manager assistant for many years and not running the club. Wyness is a CEO (I would prefer him to have more knowledge about business than football) and been a part of football for many years.
I would say that your boss was mugged off and is no longer in football because he wasn't good enough and would make the wrong assumptions. I read Simon Jordan's book and he makes it look like he was the saviour of Palace and it wasn't his fault but others, but the fact is that he didn't have a clue what he was doing and all of the decisions ultimately were bad ones.
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I've had the pleasure of meeting with Steve Round when he was involved in the Derby academy following his forced early retirement. I was involved in the Academy audits at the time. Steve then was not too happy with the way football was developing and had already embarked on his licences. He came across then as genuine in his desire to improve the way clubs operate for the players and for the fans. I next met him at lilleshall when he was with Everton and provided coaching sessions for the FA S of E. Same passion great ideas and drive. I'm glad he's at my club because he delivers. I have no doubt Wyness would have seen this in him then. Best wishes for 2018 and onwards Steve, Keith and the great support of this great club
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My new boss at work happens to be a former pro footballer and a short term contracts director of football. Really clued up and knows lots of people. Gave me a story about his club hosting the pre-match meal for the Villa Directors. Steve Round took his son, Wyness took a mate along with him, my boss felt that they were not professional enough for such a big club. He came away thinking that there is absolutely zero football knowledge on the Villa Board. He described Steve Round is a frustrated coach and lacks depth of knowledge in how to run a whole football club. My boss once interviewed Bruce for a job and describes him as a serial survivor but needs money, lacks personality. He feels that Villa are easy to mug off due to the lack of nous on the Board. I agree with him.
I appreciate you trying to share some wisdom here, and you are passing on the message that you received, but you always have to read between the lines.
It isn't a big deal if Round and Wyness brings other people along. What did your boss think that they should have done? I saw a Wigan director last year with his kid at VP. They were having a good day out. If business is to be conducted then I don't that they would bring a kid along.
Your boss is no longer in football. Why is that? Perhaps he is a failed football director and he opinion on others doesn't carry a lot of weight. What football knowledge does he has? Round was a coach and first team manager assistant for many years and not running the club. Wyness is a CEO (I would prefer him to have more knowledge about business than football) and been a part of football for many years.
I would say that your boss was mugged off and is no longer in football because he wasn't good enough and would make the wrong assumptions. I read Simon Jordan's book and he makes it look like he was the saviour of Palace and it wasn't his fault but others, but the fact is that he didn't have a clue what he was doing and all of the decisions ultimately were bad ones.
How on earth can you possibly deduce that from what he has said about his boss?
There are plenty of reasons people do not work in football any more that don't involve being incompetent.
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My new boss at work happens to be a former pro footballer and a short term contracts director of football. Really clued up and knows lots of people. Gave me a story about his club hosting the pre-match meal for the Villa Directors. Steve Round took his son, Wyness took a mate along with him, my boss felt that they were not professional enough for such a big club. He came away thinking that there is absolutely zero football knowledge on the Villa Board. He described Steve Round is a frustrated coach and lacks depth of knowledge in how to run a whole football club. My boss once interviewed Bruce for a job and describes him as a serial survivor but needs money, lacks personality. He feels that Villa are easy to mug off due to the lack of nous on the Board. I agree with him.
I appreciate you trying to share some wisdom here, and you are passing on the message that you received, but you always have to read between the lines.
It isn't a big deal if Round and Wyness brings other people along. What did your boss think that they should have done? I saw a Wigan director last year with his kid at VP. They were having a good day out. If business is to be conducted then I don't that they would bring a kid along.
Your boss is no longer in football. Why is that? Perhaps he is a failed football director and he opinion on others doesn't carry a lot of weight. What football knowledge does he has? Round was a coach and first team manager assistant for many years and not running the club. Wyness is a CEO (I would prefer him to have more knowledge about business than football) and been a part of football for many years.
I would say that your boss was mugged off and is no longer in football because he wasn't good enough and would make the wrong assumptions. I read Simon Jordan's book and he makes it look like he was the saviour of Palace and it wasn't his fault but others, but the fact is that he didn't have a clue what he was doing and all of the decisions ultimately were bad ones.
How on earth can you possibly deduce that from what he has said about his boss?
There are plenty of reasons people do not work in football any more that don't involve being incompetent.
The boss is making assumptions that Villa are being mugged off yet he isn't in football anymore. Yes of course it doesn't mean that he is incompetent, however we don't know either way. I'm making my own assumptions just like he was
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Mugged off by the likes of Steve Bruce because they got all starry eyed. Due to a general lack of football knowledge.
To be fair, the game was towards the end of the season and they were demob happy, so taking a mate might be ok. Difficult to get a message across on a message board without writing a book!
He is still in football by the way, but does other things too.
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Why wouldn't Round or Wyness, people who have been in the game for decades, lack "knowledge". How does one devine this over ham hock, roast beef and a slightly frozen raspberry cheese cake?
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Mugged off by the likes of Steve Bruce because they got all starry eyed. Due to a general lack of football knowledge.
To be fair, the game was towards the end of the season and they were demob happy, so taking a mate might be ok. Difficult to get a message across on a message board without writing a book!
He is still in football by the way, but does other things too.
Did he vote on the Bruce out thread??
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My new boss at work happens to be a former pro footballer and a short term contracts director of football. Really clued up and knows lots of people. Gave me a story about his club hosting the pre-match meal for the Villa Directors. Steve Round took his son, Wyness took a mate along with him, my boss felt that they were not professional enough for such a big club. He came away thinking that there is absolutely zero football knowledge on the Villa Board. He described Steve Round is a frustrated coach and lacks depth of knowledge in how to run a whole football club. My boss once interviewed Bruce for a job and describes him as a serial survivor but needs money, lacks personality. He feels that Villa are easy to mug off due to the lack of nous on the Board. I agree with him.
I appreciate you trying to share some wisdom here, and you are passing on the message that you received, but you always have to read between the lines.
It isn't a big deal if Round and Wyness brings other people along. What did your boss think that they should have done? I saw a Wigan director last year with his kid at VP. They were having a good day out. If business is to be conducted then I don't that they would bring a kid along.
Your boss is no longer in football. Why is that? Perhaps he is a failed football director and he opinion on others doesn't carry a lot of weight. What football knowledge does he has? Round was a coach and first team manager assistant for many years and not running the club. Wyness is a CEO (I would prefer him to have more knowledge about business than football) and been a part of football for many years.
I would say that your boss was mugged off and is no longer in football because he wasn't good enough and would make the wrong assumptions. I read Simon Jordan's book and he makes it look like he was the saviour of Palace and it wasn't his fault but others, but the fact is that he didn't have a clue what he was doing and all of the decisions ultimately were bad ones.
How on earth can you possibly deduce that from what he has said about his boss?
There are plenty of reasons people do not work in football any more that don't involve being incompetent.
The boss is making assumptions that Villa are being mugged off yet he isn't in football anymore. Yes of course it doesn't mean that he is incompetent, however we don't know either way. I'm making my own assumptions just like he was
Of course it doesn't mean he's incompetent, but that's exactly what you've just suggested.
Maybe he's not in football any more because he got poached to run the PE department at Hogwarts? Maybe he's not in football any more because he woke up one day and he'd turned into a minotaur? Maybe he's undergoing gender re-assignment? Maybe he's now President of the United States?
All as valid as your totally unfounded suggestion it's because he was 'incompetent'.
Don't get me wrong, I couldn't give a toss either way what his boss said or whether it's true, I just find your logic baffling.
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My new boss at work happens to be a former pro footballer and a short term contracts director of football. Really clued up and knows lots of people. Gave me a story about his club hosting the pre-match meal for the Villa Directors. Steve Round took his son, Wyness took a mate along with him, my boss felt that they were not professional enough for such a big club. He came away thinking that there is absolutely zero football knowledge on the Villa Board. He described Steve Round is a frustrated coach and lacks depth of knowledge in how to run a whole football club. My boss once interviewed Bruce for a job and describes him as a serial survivor but needs money, lacks personality. He feels that Villa are easy to mug off due to the lack of nous on the Board. I agree with him.
I appreciate you trying to share some wisdom here, and you are passing on the message that you received, but you always have to read between the lines.
It isn't a big deal if Round and Wyness brings other people along. What did your boss think that they should have done? I saw a Wigan director last year with his kid at VP. They were having a good day out. If business is to be conducted then I don't that they would bring a kid along.
Your boss is no longer in football. Why is that? Perhaps he is a failed football director and he opinion on others doesn't carry a lot of weight. What football knowledge does he has? Round was a coach and first team manager assistant for many years and not running the club. Wyness is a CEO (I would prefer him to have more knowledge about business than football) and been a part of football for many years.
I would say that your boss was mugged off and is no longer in football because he wasn't good enough and would make the wrong assumptions. I read Simon Jordan's book and he makes it look like he was the saviour of Palace and it wasn't his fault but others, but the fact is that he didn't have a clue what he was doing and all of the decisions ultimately were bad ones.
How on earth can you possibly deduce that from what he has said about his boss?
There are plenty of reasons people do not work in football any more that don't involve being incompetent.
The boss is making assumptions that Villa are being mugged off yet he isn't in football anymore. Yes of course it doesn't mean that he is incompetent, however we don't know either way. I'm making my own assumptions just like he was
Of course it doesn't mean he's incompetent, but that's exactly what you've just suggested.
Maybe he's not in football any more because he got poached to run the PE department at Hogwarts? Maybe he's not in football any more because he woke up one day and he'd turned into a minotaur? Maybe he's undergoing gender re-assignment? Maybe he's now President of the United States?
All as valid as your totally unfounded suggestion it's because he was 'incompetent'.
Don't get me wrong, I couldn't give a toss either way what his boss said or whether it's true, I just find your logic baffling.
my logic is that we are all making assumptions here, including my own. It's an unfounded suggestion as you said.
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My new boss at work happens to be a former pro footballer and a short term contracts director of football. Really clued up and knows lots of people. Gave me a story about his club hosting the pre-match meal for the Villa Directors. Steve Round took his son, Wyness took a mate along with him, my boss felt that they were not professional enough for such a big club. He came away thinking that there is absolutely zero football knowledge on the Villa Board. He described Steve Round is a frustrated coach and lacks depth of knowledge in how to run a whole football club. My boss once interviewed Bruce for a job and describes him as a serial survivor but needs money, lacks personality. He feels that Villa are easy to mug off due to the lack of nous on the Board. I agree with him.
I find it strange that under Lerners regime people were saying we had no football knowledge at board level (which was 100% correct). But now we have Wyness who is a former CEO of Everton, Steve Round who is a qualified football coach and Bryan Little as an advisor, so the lack of football knowledge on the board line is clearly 100% incorrect.
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As to his football knowledge and looking after the playing side of things I have no idea how competent he is. However my brother in law has met him regarding a project Villa have been looking at and he says he''s a really nice professional chap. The brother in law meets with lots of top board members from large companies around the world so he has a good understanding of professional people. Like I said I have no idea about the football capabilities but I know the brother in law would be quite happy to do business with him.
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My new boss at work happens to be a former pro footballer and a short term contracts director of football. Really clued up and knows lots of people. Gave me a story about his club hosting the pre-match meal for the Villa Directors. Steve Round took his son, Wyness took a mate along with him, my boss felt that they were not professional enough for such a big club. He came away thinking that there is absolutely zero football knowledge on the Villa Board. He described Steve Round is a frustrated coach and lacks depth of knowledge in how to run a whole football club. My boss once interviewed Bruce for a job and describes him as a serial survivor but needs money, lacks personality. He feels that Villa are easy to mug off due to the lack of nous on the Board. I agree with him.
I find it strange that under Lerners regime people were saying we had no football knowledge at board level (which was 100% correct). But now we have Wyness who is a former CEO of Everton, Steve Round who is a qualified football coach and Bryan Littleas an advisor, so the lack of football knowledge on the board line is clearly 100% incorrect.
Small yes, Little no. :o :o
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Surely now the dust has settled on Saturdays poor effort it is time for Keith & Dr Tony to address the support & show some true leadership-always seems the going gets tough the radio silence kicks in.
Personally I’d like to see a statement that addresses;
-an acknowledgment that the approach this season has failed, don’t want an apology just to know that they aren’t patting themselves on the back saying bad luck, not to get top 2 was failure, to not win the play-off made that abject failure and they should say it.
-future of the manager, if he is staying make it clear now not 2/3 weeks down the line, if he is going hopefully it similarly won’t be a long drawn out process.
-future of key players, let’s face it of the seniors Jack & Chester are the ones we want to know are staying, dont leave it rumbling all summer.
-address the elephant in the room, what does FFP mean for next year? nobody expects to be told the budget but it’s lazy management to let the same old suspects in the press write their Armageddon articles of fire sales and transfer embargoes without giving some true context.
Will they do it & control the message or do we have a summer of rumour upon rumour.....
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Don’t hold your breath.
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Surely now the dust has settled on Saturdays poor effort it is time for Keith & Dr Tony to address the support & show some true leadership-always seems the going gets tough the radio silence kicks in.
Personally I’d like to see a statement that addresses;
-an acknowledgment that the approach this season has failed, don’t want an apology just to know that they aren’t patting themselves on the back saying bad luck, not to get top 2 was failure, to not win the play-off made that abject failure and they should say it.
-future of the manager, if he is staying make it clear now not 2/3 weeks down the line, if he is going hopefully it similarly won’t be a long drawn out process.
-future of key players, let’s face it of the seniors Jack & Chester are the ones we want to know are staying, dont leave it rumbling all summer.
-address the elephant in the room, what does FFP mean for next year? nobody expects to be told the budget but it’s lazy management to let the same old suspects in the press write their Armageddon articles of fire sales and transfer embargoes without giving some true context.
Will they do it & control the message or do we have a summer of rumour upon rumour.....
I agree Gareth. Clear and decisive leadership is required and i would hope they will have reached a decision in the next couple of weeks at the latest. I also want to see some joined up thinking, so that if FFP is going to be an issue and we are going to have to rely on bringing younger players through going forward, then we bring in a manager who has a track record of doing that.
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Do the financial accounts for this season close on Thursday?
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Do the financial accounts for this season close on Thursday?
Year end 31 May but don’t expect to see them until Feb 2019.
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Just goes to show how thin the line between success and failure is when you read some of these posts.
If we'd beat Fulham over 90 minutes at Wembley apparently their manager would be considered a failure.
Bizarre.
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Every time I see this bloke's name I get confused and think it's that Rolling Stone who was going out with a 14 year-old.
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Just goes to show how thin the line between success and failure is when you read some of these posts.
If we'd beat Fulham over 90 minutes at Wembley apparently their manager would be considered a failure.
Bizarre.
Considering the resources he has had to work with, I don't think he would have been and I'm pretty sure he would have been highly sought after by a number of top flight clubs.
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Just goes to show how thin the line between success and failure is when you read some of these posts.
If we'd beat Fulham over 90 minutes at Wembley apparently their manager would be considered a failure.
Bizarre.
Did you watch the game? We wouldn’t have scored if we were still playing now.
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Wyness and co will know now what the Financial position is and the FFP situation.
I think they will be too scared to share the cluster fuck of the mess we are in with the fans.
Expect radio silence and a lack of candidness, in the mean time Doctor Tony has fucked off back to China.
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Every time I see this bloke's name I get confused and think it's that Rolling Stone who was going out with a 14 year-old.
Well he'd know about working with youth tbf.
....
I hate myself.
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Do the financial accounts for this season close on Thursday?
Year end 31 May but don’t expect to see them until Feb 2019.
Obviously not but all financial transactions after the end of the month will go into next years accounts.
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Wyness and co will know now what the Financial position is and the FFP situation.
I think they will be too scared to share the cluster fuck of the mess we are in with the fans.
Expect radio silence and a lack of candidness, in the mean time Doctor Tony has fucked off back to China.
Give it a rest will you.
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Wyness and co will know now what the Financial position is and the FFP situation.
I think they will be too scared to share the cluster fuck of the mess we are in with the fans.
Expect radio silence and a lack of candidness, in the mean time Doctor Tony has fucked off back to China.
What exactly is the problem with Dr Tony being in China anyway?
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-future of the manager, if he is staying make it clear now not 2/3 weeks down the line, if he is going hopefully it similarly won’t be a long drawn out process.
That could be construed as the "dreaded vote of confidence" if it weren't for the fact that there are no more competitive games until August.
I agree with the general thrust of the post though.
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Wyness and co will know now what the Financial position is and the FFP situation.
I think they will be too scared to share the cluster fuck of the mess we are in with the fans.
Expect radio silence and a lack of candidness, in the mean time Doctor Tony has fucked off back to China.
You mean the owner of a business has returned to where most of his businesses are based and left the running of one of them to the people he pays to run them? The evil, scheming bastard.
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Not discounting the fact that Wyness has already discussed this on WM and at the Trust AGM.
Whether you believe him or trust him etc is where you can debate it.
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Just goes to show how thin the line between success and failure is when you read some of these posts.
If we'd beat Fulham over 90 minutes at Wembley apparently their manager would be considered a failure.
Bizarre.
If his sole reason for getting the job was his promotion record and his only target was to do it again then yes he would be.
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Wyness and co will know now what the Financial position is and the FFP situation.
I think they will be too scared to share the cluster fuck of the mess we are in with the fans.
Expect radio silence and a lack of candidness, in the mean time Doctor Tony has fucked off back to China.
You mean the owner of a business has returned to where most of his businesses are based and left the running of one of them to the people he pays to run them? The evil, scheming bastard.
It’s almost as if he was born in China and lives there or something.
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Wyness and co will know now what the Financial position is and the FFP situation.
I think they will be too scared to share the cluster fuck of the mess we are in with the fans.
Expect radio silence and a lack of candidness, in the mean time Doctor Tony has fucked off back to China.
What exactly is the problem with Dr Tony being in China anyway?
He talks a lot of bollocks so file with the rest of it. Things are a tough time to slag the owner, and doubly so because he’s *foreign*
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Wyness and co will know now what the Financial position is and the FFP situation.
I think they will be too scared to share the cluster fuck of the mess we are in with the fans.
Expect radio silence and a lack of candidness, in the mean time Doctor Tony has fucked off back to China.
You do realise he is only allowed to spend a certain amount of days in the country don’t you? & no doubt his flight out would have been planned whatever happened Saturday.
What I am hoping for is the club to control the message & set expectations to the fans rather than letting the usual click bait suspects in the media stir up hysteria with the talk of embargoes & fire sales.
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This Keith guy seems old school and not as dynamic at advising like what happened at wolves.
I don't know if he just another who keeps old boys network or is progressive. Xia has him because of connections in English game but are they modern minded and the whole villa engine idea is just a project not termed as project.
I not sure if wyness offers much in taking things to next level or just tries to fluff as a business person who things he knows football.
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Surely now the dust has settled on Saturdays poor effort it is time for Keith & Dr Tony to address the support & show some true leadership-always seems the going gets tough the radio silence kicks in.
Personally I’d like to see a statement that addresses;
-an acknowledgment that the approach this season has failed, don’t want an apology just to know that they aren’t patting themselves on the back saying bad luck, not to get top 2 was failure, to not win the play-off made that abject failure and they should say it.
-future of the manager, if he is staying make it clear now not 2/3 weeks down the line, if he is going hopefully it similarly won’t be a long drawn out process.
-future of key players, let’s face it of the seniors Jack & Chester are the ones we want to know are staying, dont leave it rumbling all summer.
-address the elephant in the room, what does FFP mean for next year? nobody expects to be told the budget but it’s lazy management to let the same old suspects in the press write their Armageddon articles of fire sales and transfer embargoes without giving some true context.
Will they do it & control the message or do we have a summer of rumour upon rumour.....
So true and very good points I would l like to hear solid statements not just tweets but official statements or a interview where know how things will be for next season.
I summise they are putting something out there as pro as they can not to cause alarm and be in next few week or so to hear situation
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Wyness and co will know now what the Financial position is and the FFP situation.
I think they will be too scared to share the cluster fuck of the mess we are in with the fans.
Expect radio silence and a lack of candidness, in the mean time Doctor Tony has fucked off back to China.
You mean the owner of a business has returned to where most of his businesses are based and left the running of one of them to the people he pays to run them? The evil, scheming bastard.
Thanks for that delightful slice o' satire, Dave. Beautifully played. ;)
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So true and very good points I would l like to hear solid statements not just tweets but official statements or a interview where know how things will be for next season.
FFS, our season only ended three days ago. Give em chance
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I might have this totally wrong but I'm sure I half heard of a guy with some connection to Everton who was part of the Dr T team in 2016 when he bought the club, who then dropped off the face of the earth and who has now resurfaced at Everton in some board capacity. I can't remember the geezer's name, but there was something a little shady about him. Does anyone know who he is?
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Not discounting the fact that Wyness has already discussed this on WM and at the Trust AGM.
Whether you believe him or trust him etc is where you can debate it.
Is there any detail on this? The stuff I saw was all focused on "this year is fine, next year more difficult" which is open to a lot of interpretation.
I've seen some people say he said that while we'd need to return loanees we wouldn't need to sell a lot of players. But I've not seen any direct quotes on this and the emerging story is more stark than that.
If it is all being overblown I imagine they'll clarify because it must hurt our ability to get a good price for players were selling
But away from all the numbers and complicated analysis, I still just want Jack to stay and hope it can be done
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The annoying thing is that I think they will have to say Jack is staying, even if he isn't, just to keep the price up, so basically until the window shuts in August, we really won't know!
I am however slightly hopeful that I will stop feeling aa sick about the prospect of him going some time before then
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Wyness and co will know now what the Financial position is and the FFP situation.
I think they will be too scared to share the cluster fuck of the mess we are in with the fans.
Expect radio silence and a lack of candidness, in the mean time Doctor Tony has fucked off back to China.
What exactly is the problem with Dr Tony being in China anyway?
He talks a lot of bollocks so file with the rest of it. Things are a tough time to slag the owner, and doubly so because he’s *foreign*
The race card, that is truly pathetic even for you.
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Stop watching Fox.
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Wyness and co will know now what the Financial position is and the FFP situation.
I think they will be too scared to share the cluster fuck of the mess we are in with the fans.
Expect radio silence and a lack of candidness, in the mean time Doctor Tony has fucked off back to China.
What exactly is the problem with Dr Tony being in China anyway?
He talks a lot of bollocks so file with the rest of it. Things are a tough time to slag the owner, and doubly so because he’s *foreign*
The race card, that is truly pathetic even for you.
Why mention him fucking off back to China then? Would you have mentioned where he was going if he went home to Four Oaks?
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So true and very good points I would l like to hear solid statements not just tweets but official statements or a interview where know how things will be for next season.
FFS, our season only ended three days ago. Give em chance
Sorry generation thing!!
I do my best to be patient just hate the situation and need to come to terms. All the speculation of ffp, the potential outgoings, contracts not renewed, saying good bye to loan players even Steve Bruce position it would be nice to hear.
You're right it's only been a few days and I guess I have to trust that contingency plans for non promotion were and are there.
You understand my feelings though right? Even though you sound annoyed!
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I trust Mr Wyness to his word until I have a reason not to. He quite clearly said not only to the the Supporters Trust but in a live interview on WM that in the event we did go up there was a plan a and in the event we didn't there is a plan b. He said it would be tighter in the latter case, but, we would still have a very competitive squad and would not have to sell our star players. Let's see what happens next.
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Wyness and co will know now what the Financial position is and the FFP situation.
I think they will be too scared to share the cluster fuck of the mess we are in with the fans.
Expect radio silence and a lack of candidness, in the mean time Doctor Tony has fucked off back to China.
What exactly is the problem with Dr Tony being in China anyway?
He talks a lot of bollocks so file with the rest of it. Things are a tough time to slag the owner, and doubly so because he’s *foreign*
The race card, that is truly pathetic even for you.
Why mention him fucking off back to China then? Would you have mentioned where he was going if he went home to Four Oaks?
I’m going to hazard a guess that it’s because China is on the other side of the planet.
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So is Chicago, and yet we still hear from him.
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So is Chicago, and yet we still hear from him.
It's amazing how you can do things with a phone a computer and the internet. People should start using them to do business.
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Back in the days before the take over 2 years ago - Sir Mervyn King and a couple of other members of the hastily put together board, resigned/quit just before Dr Tony was announced. Did the reasons for the this ever surface? I had always held that board in high esteem, but was worried they didn't agree with whoever the club was being sold to. To be fair to Dr Tony he's been good to his word, but was always intrigued to why they all quit
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Back in the days before the take over 2 years ago - Sir Mervyn King and a couple of other members of the hastily put together board, resigned/quit just before Dr Tony was announced. Did the reasons for the this ever surface? I had always held that board in high esteem, but was worried they didn't agree with whoever the club was being sold to. To be fair to Dr Tony he's been good to his word, but was always intrigued to why they all quit
They resigned as they fell out with Lerner as far as I recall reading
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It's a great pity that Bernstein, King and Little hadn't been on the board five years earlier. They had so much ability and experience.
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Lerner got tanked up and insulted them.
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Lerner got tanked up and insulted them.
Lerner is the reason why we're still a championship team. The rot he created in that last five years still runs deep into the club. Bruce has partially fixed it, but it can take many years to completely eradicate the mess.
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https://7500toholte.sbnation.com/2018/1/21/16912554/the-big-keith-wyness-aston-villa-interview-a-mostly-full-transcript
Fullish transcript of Keith's WM Phone In earlier this year. Make of it what you will regarding FFP.
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Lerner got tanked up and insulted them.
Lerner is the reason why we're still a championship team. The rot he created in that last five years still runs deep into the club. Bruce has partially fixed it, but it can take many years to completely eradicate the mess.
Lerner has nothing to do with the millions wasted since Dr X came in. Di Matteo, Bruce and Wyness are all to blame.
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I don't like Wyness and I don't trust him. An arch delegator who adds little is my experience of him.
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I have always been OK with Wyness but I am now beginnig to question both him and Xia.
I hope my fears are unfounded but it's not looking great for us if the papers are to be believed.
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Hadn't seen that Q&A before, it's a bit worrying that he appears to be another who believes that stability for it's own sake will somehow bring rewards. As I've said about Bruce, I don't see how you can use the argument of stability whilst creating a team with a very obvious expiration date. By design we're going into next season needing to replace 5 players from the 11 who started the final, that's not stability.
On top of that there are a few quotes there which show exactly what he is:
"The bottom ten clubs have a reality where they play negative football to stay alive. We need to build on that."
"I have to disagree with you slightly there Dave. Bruce has brought the youth in well. It’s hard to see how they are ready for a match and only Steve can judge that."
"the Villa Engine - we want to build a philosophy through Steve Round and give us future hope. It’s a style of play - these changes start in the youth teams and come through. The first team can’t do it as it has a challenge to meet."
So negative football is the only way to survive in the premier league, Bruce is doing well with the kids despite only playing them when he has no other options and the villa engine can't apply to the first team because they have a challenge to meet, when are they ever going to not have a challenge to meet?
All of that sounds like him trying to justify having a manager who doesn't fit the vision for the club going forward, I haven't met him but like Chelts I've never been comfortable about him, he comes across as a typical old school 'football man' just like Bruce and who wants to surround himself with people like him.
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All of that sounds like him trying to justify having a manager who doesn't fit the vision for the club going forward, I haven't met him but like Chelts I've never been comfortable about him, he comes across as a typical old school 'football man' just like Bruce and who wants to surround himself with people like him.
My problem with him isn't that he's a football man, but quite the opposite. He's a businessman who sees football as a way to earn a good living and would be off tomorrow if he got a better offer.
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Probably very true, I just meant in his understanding of the game, it's always come across as extremely simplistic, much like you see from chairman from 30-40 years ago.
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All of that sounds like him trying to justify having a manager who doesn't fit the vision for the club going forward, I haven't met him but like Chelts I've never been comfortable about him, he comes across as a typical old school 'football man' just like Bruce and who wants to surround himself with people like him.
My problem with him isn't that he's a football man, but quite the opposite. He's a businessman who sees football as a way to earn a good living and would be off tomorrow if he got a better offer.
Isn't that just about everybody in football?
I've never met him, so I cannot comment on whether I trust him or not. He's been in the gig a long time with Everton and Aberdeen. I feel more confident with him being there than Tom Fox, but the bar isn't set too high there.
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I'd not seen that transcript before now, but assuming its accurate it looks like he is/the board are forward thinking and trying to cover all possibilities.
As to whether people trust him, its him or some hack who can write any old crap to fill column inches in the super-soaraway-Sun without consequences, assuming that they don't libel anyone.
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Those comments are taken from a phone in he did I listened to it so can confirm it’s what he said.
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I don't like Wyness and I don't trust him. An arch delegator who adds little is my experience of him.
Chelts - are you still confident Bruce is going? Was this based on "if we miss the target... " from a while back or something more recent?
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I don't mind him and I can see where he is coming from regarding style of play , you can't change things overnight and Bruce was given a more short term goal ...however he failed in this goal and left us picking up the pieces
If Bruce is responsible for whats on the pitch Wyness and Round are responsible for hiring him and his failure leaves them accountable and they should also be having their positions evaluated
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Lerner got tanked up and insulted them.
Lerner is the reason why we're still a championship team. The rot he created in that last five years still runs deep into the club. Bruce has partially fixed it, but it can take many years to completely eradicate the mess.
The problems have been somewhat compounded by the approach of those that have followed Lerner. The club does feel a bit more stable now, but we are still in the position where we are facing financial issues because we are paying comparatively big wages to players who were brought with seemingly no joined up thinking, are contributing very little on the pitch and we are going to have hard time moving on. The majority of players that fall into that category in the current squad were purchased after Lerner left.
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I too have never met Wyness but everything I read and hear of what he says makes me believe he is a carpet bagger out of the same mould of the swarms of them we used to have buzzing around the club when we were strong enough to swat them. Has dinosaur in his DNA I strongly suspect.
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"The bottom ten clubs have a reality where they play negative football to stay alive. We need to build on that."
If that quote is accurate, he can sod off.
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Lerner has nothing to do with the millions wasted since Dr X came in. Di Matteo, Bruce and Wyness are all to blame.
But he has a LOT to do with the fact millions did need spending, whether they were spent badly or not
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I think he's a lot of fluff and isn't progressive just more business talk and hasn't got an idea just has some old school knowledge of being in and around football.
That transfer deadline stuff video on Grabban was pure cringe.
Shitty lap top and the old chap looked clueless using Alexa. But maybe that was the joke!
The thumbs up just no.
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Lerner has nothing to do with the millions wasted since Dr X came in. Di Matteo, Bruce and Wyness are all to blame.
But he has a LOT to do with the fact millions did need spending, whether they were spent badly or not
Quite, my finger of blame is still mostly pointed at Lerner & Fox.
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Its true we were playing catch up, but since we have been in the league, 3 teams have been promoted who spent relatively little, they got by with shrewd transfers and good coaching, two things we have lacked.
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Lerner has nothing to do with the millions wasted since Dr X came in. Di Matteo, Bruce and Wyness are all to blame.
But he has a LOT to do with the fact millions did need spending, whether they were spent badly or not
Quite, my finger of blame is still mostly pointed at Lerner & Fox.
Not much difference so far
Learners regime sent us down
Xis's regime is keeping us down
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I think there was a need to spend big when we first dropped, or we could have easily done a Sunderland. We had crap players in 2016 who needed upgrading, plus we had a new owner who wanted to make a splash. It's easy to say in hindsight we could have been frugal but it was never going to happen. There have been some mystifying decisions both on and off the pitch since we've been in the Championship but if we're going to follow the example of the low-spend/good-coaching that other teams have made a virtue of, it'll have to start now.
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I think there's been a few mistakes, Buying McCormack and Kodjia was silly when we had Gestede and Ayew already, we should've told RDM to pick 1 and he could only have the other if he sold someone. We then doubled down on it with Hogan. At that point we did let others leave but we massively overspent on him and it screamed panic buy. I'd say the same in midfield as well, 2 from Houri, Lansbury, Bjarni and Whelan would've been enough with Jedi already there and Jack effecitvely taking a midfield spot. That Bjarni didn't get off the bench and Lansbury didn't make the squad back that up, they're not the sort of signings you make to have as backup to your first choice 18.
Fix all of that lot and we'd probably be looking at the sponsor chnages being enough to get us onside with FFP.
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I didn't see anything wrong with buying Kodjia. Gestede or Ayew would not have got the goals he did.
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I didn't see anything wrong with buying Kodjia. Gestede or Ayew would not have got the goals he did.
I didn't say that though, I said we should've picked one from Kodjia or McCormack. Of course I'd have liked us to spend a big chunk of that money on finding a proper midfielder but that just knocks on the next bit about Bruce buying far too many central midfielders, all of them being pretty average, when what we really needed was 2 good ones.
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I didn't see anything wrong with buying Kodjia. Gestede or Ayew would not have got the goals he did.
I didn't say that though, I said we should've picked one from Kodjia or McCormack. Of course I'd have liked us to spend a big chunk of that money on finding a proper midfielder but that just knocks on the next bit about Bruce buying far too many central midfielders, all of them being pretty average, when what we really needed was 2 good ones.
Point taken.
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I don't like Wyness and I don't trust him. An arch delegator who adds little is my experience of him.
Chelts - are you still confident Bruce is going? Was this based on "if we miss the target... " from a while back or something more recent?
He is a goner.
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Nah he’s from Newcastle. No way does he support Arsenal.
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Its true we were playing catch up, but since we have been in the league, 3 teams have been promoted who spent relatively little, they got by with shrewd transfers and good coaching, two things we have lacked.
None of those teams were in the state we were in either. It's like people forget the absolute shitfest we were in for not one year, but 4 or 5
You don't just turn that around by throwing some money at it
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Its true we were playing catch up, but since we have been in the league, 3 teams have been promoted who spent relatively little, they got by with shrewd transfers and good coaching, two things we have lacked.
You don't just turn that around by throwing some money at it
Which is the point I made.
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Its true we were playing catch up, but since we have been in the league, 3 teams have been promoted who spent relatively little, they got by with shrewd transfers and good coaching, two things we have lacked.
None of those teams were in the state we were in either. It's like people forget the absolute shitfest we were in for not one year, but 4 or 5
You don't just turn that around by throwing some money at it
spin it whatever way you like but unfortunately we are still in a shitfest and all the money's been spent
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If we hadn't spunked so much money on strikers, right backs and average midfielders since we were relegated I reckon we'd be a top flight side. We've got over £30m worth of strikers that were permanently signed after we were relegated, for a variety of reasons they managed the grand total of 7 league goals this season.
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Hogan could still score goals though. If Smith can get a tune out of him, surely a manager who is capable of seeing player G, best in the league and player H and concocting a link between the two that works.
Signing a player that works off the shoulder and being a side that slings a lot of balls into the mixer, isn't clever.
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Hogan could still score goals though. If Smith can get a tune out of him, surely a manager who is capable of seeing player G, best in the league and player H and concocting a link between the two that works.
Signing a player that works off the shoulder and being a side that slings a lot of balls into the mixer, isn't clever.
The point that had been made was that we pretty much had no chance of promotion yet because we were in such a mess and throwing money at it wouldn't fix it. Despite spending a lot of money pretty badly we ended up 1 game short so it's not much of a leap to think that better use of the money spent under both RDM and Bruce would see us kicking off next season as a PL club. So throwing money at it could/would have worked if we'd spent it better, and/or coached the players better.
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Hogan could still score goals though. If Smith can get a tune out of him, surely a manager who is capable of seeing player G, best in the league and player H and concocting a link between the two that works.
Signing a player that works off the shoulder and being a side that slings a lot of balls into the mixer, isn't clever.
The point that had been made was that we pretty much had no chance of promotion yet because we were in such a mess and throwing money at it wouldn't fix it. Despite spending a lot of money pretty badly we ended up 1 game short so it's not much of a leap to think that better use of the money spent under both RDM and Bruce would see us kicking off next season as a PL club. So throwing money at it could/would have worked if we'd spent it better, and/or coached the players better.
absolutely, it's not how much money you spend its how you spend the money you have
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Hogan could still score goals though. If Smith can get a tune out of him, surely a manager who is capable of seeing player G, best in the league and player H and concocting a link between the two that works.
Signing a player that works off the shoulder and being a side that slings a lot of balls into the mixer, isn't clever.
I'd agree with that, but it doesn't stop signing a 3rd £10m (ish) striker in 5 months being fucking stupid.
My big problem with the money we spent is how much of it could we get back if we sold those players, how many have gone up in value? The inevitable consequence of signing players in their mid-late 20s for big money is that it's really difficult to get that money back when they leave, so you're always having to pull money from nothing to keep the squad up to standard. I'd say under 27 we spend what we need to, 27-31/32 we limit to no more than £2-3m and 32+ we only sign for free. I'd also say we should only sign 1-2 from the latter 2 groups a year. Signing younger players is a little more expensive but you normally get a big chunk of the money back so long as you're scouting properly.
Reilly gets a lot of criticism but we didn't lose any money on Ayew, Veretout, Amavi, Adama and Gueye. A decent manager and coaching structure would've easily made a profit on them (and we'd probably be a league higher).
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All good players. Needed to come into a stable team and not be the fulcrum of the side in year one though
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Indeed but they are all gone , we didn't make much of a loss on them and most are doing better now ..on flip side we still have Richards who was Sherwoods signings ..its a common theme British manager buying average players( uk based ) on big money and the board allowing it
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"The bottom ten clubs have a reality where they play negative football to stay alive. We need to build on that."
If that quote is accurate, he can sod off.
Disagree. He can fuck off.
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Rumours he got sacked on Monday!? Anyone else heard this?
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He hasn’t tweeted since before Saturday’s game...
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Surely a company can't sack its CEO without announcing it? Now granted I know feck all about running a business, much less a football club. Thankfully.
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Surely a company can't sack its CEO without announcing it? Now granted I know feck all about running a business, much less a football club. Thankfully.
I don't for one second think he has gone, but I believe that a private company,which we are now, can do pretty much as it likes with regards to its internal affairs.
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Does the clubs new financial year start tomorrow!? Maybe a reason to a delay in contracts etc
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He's still on companies house.
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Rumours he got sacked on Monday!? Anyone else heard this?
Was it on Twitter? If it was it must be true
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The latest news on the Pravda app is that Onomah loved his time at Villa...
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He hasn’t tweeted since before Saturday’s game...
A wild guess but perhaps he is on holiday.
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He hasn’t tweeted since before Saturday’s game...
A wild guess but perhaps he is on holiday.
How fucking dare he?! Fancy not tweeting all about it and where he is, who he's with, what he's having for tea etc. etc.
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Yeah.
Fat bastard.
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He's still on companies house.
Doesn't mean anything. You have 14 days to notify Companies House of any changes in directors.
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(https://thumb.ibb.co/hjPkdT/FA1_EDDAF_F543_4_A11_932_B_A516355095_FF.png) (https://ibb.co/hjPkdT)
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WTF. Tell me that's a wind up?
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(https://thumb.ibb.co/hjPkdT/FA1_EDDAF_F543_4_A11_932_B_A516355095_FF.png) (https://ibb.co/hjPkdT)
That better not be true.
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Club has just issued a statement saying he’s been suspended but nowt else.
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https://www.avfc.co.uk/News/2018/06/05/club-statement
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Its on the club site now!
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UPDATE from Sky reporter: Some more clarity on Aston Villa FC situation: the club missed a tax payment last Friday, and has been given a period (which I understand to be a week) by HMRC to make the payment or face a winding-up order.
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Bloody hell.
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Another fine mess he’s got us into.
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What the fuck is going on at OUR club?
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Villa are saying it will be paid within 24-48 hours.
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He is Bruce’s big champion so if we assume he’s gone then every chance Bruce will be too.
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This is the kind of shit that we would laugh about going on at the Rags.
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Villa are saying it will be paid within 24-48 hours.
Tony.......Mom, any chance you could lend me £££££
Tony’s Mom.........OK but you’re going to wash my car aren’t you!
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UPDATE from Sky reporter: Some more clarity on Aston Villa FC situation: the club missed a tax payment last Friday, and has been given a period (which I understand to be a week) by HMRC to make the payment or face a winding-up order.
He's the City Editor at Sky News.
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Maybe he just forgot to post the cheque.
We were in a cup final after All.
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This sort of thing happens to other clubs. Not us surely?
Dark days indeed.
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WTF. Tell me that's a wind up?
We'll be wound-up if we don't pay asap.
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Very odd.
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Seems like all the press and media speculation crap wasn’t crap after all
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Regardless of it being paid tomorrow, it makes the whole club look bad. Serious things are wrong if this is happening. Disgraceful
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Another fucking wanker at our club. Can't get clear of them. Fucking football man my arse
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Chill out folks.
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FC Villa of Aston will be formed soon at this rate.
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Another fucking wanker at our club. Can't get clear of them. Fucking football man my arse
I've never had him down as a football man. I thought he was a Desk Johnny but it appears he's not even that.
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FC Villa of Aston will be formed soon at this rate.
No it won't.
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If an organisation misses the deadline for a tax payment do HMRC automatically go straight for the winding up order after a week? Something doesn’t add up.
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Chill out folks.
Assuming it's just an oversight then it is nothing to panic about regarding the club, however it's staggeringly unprofessional and not exactly confidence filling that Wyness has been doing his job properly.
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FC Villa of Aston will be formed soon at this rate.
No it won't.
It was a joke precious.
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Regardless of whether tax bill is paid today, tomorrow or Friday, this just make us look amateurish and unprofessional. It’s the kind of thing that happens to the rags and we all piss ourselves laughing knowing we could never be that bad.
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Is it an administration error or are the club really skint?
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It’s at best shambolic.
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Saturday 4th August 2018 at Villa Park: Puppet Show and Aston Villa. Puppet show might agree to have smaller dressing room though (Spinal Tap reference ;))
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Chill out folks.
Assuming it's just an oversight then it is nothing to panic about regarding the club, however it's staggeringly unprofessional and not exactly confidence filling that Wyness has been doing his job properly.
In hindsight it’s interesting we didn’t hear from Wyness in all the statements last week. He’s been very offensive on the media front previously.
But yes unprofessional of the highest order, oh for the likes of Stride to be back!
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WTF. Tell me that's a wind up?
We'll be wound-up if we don't pay asap.
The club will be placed in Administration before that happens.
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WTF. Tell me that's a wind up?
We'll be wound-up if we don't pay asap.
The club will be placed in Administration before that happens.
It's one way to try and get around FFP I suppose!
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If an organisation misses the deadline for a tax payment do HMRC automatically go straight for the winding up order after a week? Something doesn’t add up.
No, there would have been a notice before the winding up order.
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I've heard one explanation that Wyness has been gone a while and that this may have created the oversight. But there still should be staff in place to avoid that. And either way it suggests Plan B is a load of rubbish
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What a fuck up, other fans obviously pulling out references to Alexa from that cringeworthy video. To be fair I've nearly missed a deadline in the past but remembered at the last minute but I'm a one man band Web Designer not CEO of a football club
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WTF. Tell me that's a wind up?
We'll be wound-up if we don't pay asap.
The club will be placed in Administration before that happens.
It's one way to try and get around FFP I suppose!
If it bought about a change of ownership.
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I own a business, granted small but VAT registered, and you do not, ever, miss VAT or PAYE payments. Wages and VAT first things paid. Disgrace, it really is.
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Is it an administration error or are the club really skint?
The fact that Wyness has been suspended tends to hint that it is down to him so maybe an embarrassing cock up. I hope anyway so as the alternatives are far more worrying.
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I've heard one explanation that Wyness has been gone a while and that this may have created the oversight. But there still should be staff in place to avoid that. And either way it suggests Plan B is a load of rubbish
If he'd gone why would we issue a statement saying he's been suspended?
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Wyness suspended by Villa according to the BBC
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44376099
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I've heard one explanation that Wyness has been gone a while and that this may have created the oversight. But there still should be staff in place to avoid that. And either way it suggests Plan B is a load of rubbish
Wyness I think like Bruce was fully in the shit or bust approach of promotion this year with a ramped up wage bill that we could afford if promoted but not if we weren’t.
The idea of just two plans was ridiculous; there should be a plan with a number of routes based on changing variables.
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Did anyone see him at Wembley come to think of it? Footage of Tony there and in play off home leg but no sign of Keith.
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WTF. Tell me that's a wind up?
We'll be wound-up if we don't pay asap.
The club will be placed in Administration before that happens.
Doesn't that come with a points deductions and transfer embargo
It's what happened to Luton Town and they ended up in the conference for almost a decade
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I've heard one explanation that Wyness has been gone a while and that this may have created the oversight. But there still should be staff in place to avoid that. And either way it suggests Plan B is a load of rubbish
If he is already gone how can they suspend him?
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I'm seriously worried about our club right now
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WTF. Tell me that's a wind up?
We'll be wound-up if we don't pay asap.
The club will be placed in Administration before that happens.
Doesn't that come with a points deductions and transfer embargo
It's what happened to Luton Town and they ended up in the conference for almost a decade
It really depends.
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Luton were done for financial irregularities going back years which is why they were docked 30 points.
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I'm seriously worried about our club right now
Don't be. At least no more than you were a few hours ago.
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I'm seriously worried about our club right now
Don't be. At least no more than you were a few hours ago.
I am.
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Normally it's a heavy fine and a possible director level warning for one late payment - only a massive tax breach would lead to a winding up order.
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You have to be more worried by this. Even the best case scenario is that we're incompetently run and have no viable plan for the situation we're in.
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Did anyone see him at Wembley come to think of it? Footage of Tony there and in play off home leg but no sign of Keith.
Yes he was there on the footage when Fulham lifted the trophy.
I didn't notice if he was sweating profusely...seems the rumours of him being sacked have some credibility. Shambolic and rather concerning to say the least.
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Well at least we’ve heard something we got a statement and everything
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WTF. Tell me that's a wind up?
We'll be wound-up if we don't pay asap.
The club will be placed in Administration before that happens.
Quite right, I was just riffing on Mr Kelly's apt choice of phrase.
Who is our CFO since Robin Russell upped sticks? Surely they would be responsible for authorising the payment (unless it went over their sign-off limit, I guess).
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Normally it's a heavy fine and a possible director level warning for one late payment - only a massive tax breach would lead to a winding up order.
It does not have to be a massive Tax breach, just not responding to requests for payment or information or both.
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What a time to be alive.
A winding up order for a missed tax deadline is a little harsh to say the least, unless of course they've uncovered something more serious.
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What a time to be alive.
A winding up order for a missed tax deadline is a little harsh to say the least, unless of course they've uncovered something more serious.
It won’t just be a missed Tax deadline.
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Makes you wonder about the ‘Dr’.
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It's probably just a technicality. A fucking embarrassing one.
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It's probably just a technicality. A fucking embarrassing one.
I admire your positivity Dave, but I am expecting this mole hill to grow.
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It's probably just a technicality. A fucking embarrassing one.
Suspending the CEO and receiving a winding up petition from HMRC is unlikely to be a technicality.
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Maybe Doug could throw a few million our way to help out...we all know how much he loves the club
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This type of stuff happens all the time in finance offices.
Bill will have gone to Wyness to sign off. Keith's probably on holiday. Invoice not paid. HMRC not on payment run.
As a result Villa get winding up order and it's headline news.
I work in Credit Control and Accounts Payable. Seen this happen millions of times.
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Sky are saying that HMRC are giving us time to pay the tax bill
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The club really does need to be specific now about why he's been suspended. Has it been reported anywhere how long he will remain suspended?
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No. The hammer has come down too precipitously and hard for it to be a technicality.
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Decided FC Villa of Aston is a crap name, so i'm forming 'Villa1874 FC of the Kingdom of Aston'. Give me a V!
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It's very embarrassing, but it doesn't have to be over any significant sum.
I like issuing winding up petitions, great fun and it usually gets the attention required and my cheque arrives.
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My problem with him isn't that he's a football man, but quite the opposite. He's a businessman who sees football as a way to earn a good living and would be off tomorrow if he got a better offer.
The chances of a better offer look slimmer and slimmer by the minute.
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The club really does need to be specific now about why he's been suspended. Has it been reported anywhere how long he will remain suspended?
Unfortunately no it does not. The statement is in response to the HMRC news (and very quick and deliberately brief I’m sure.)
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Sky are saying that HMRC are giving us time to pay the tax bill
Enough time for Tony to check between the cushions of his sofa. This stinks.
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The club really does need to be specific now about why he's been suspended. Has it been reported anywhere how long he will remain suspended?
Unfortunately no it does not. The statement is in response to the HMRC news (and very quick and deliberately brief I’m sure.)
Hmm. Odd if they've suspended him for a late tax payment.
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This type of stuff happens all the time in finance offices.
Bill will have gone to Wyness to sign off. Keith's probably on holiday. Invoice not paid. HMRC not on payment run.
As a result Villa get winding up order and it's headline news.
I work in Credit Control and Accounts Payable. Seen this happen millions of times.
Oh yeh just normal stuff.
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Tony isn't looking anywhere though is he, the club meets this. The club ought to have met compliance.
Wyness has been suspended, which ought to tell you that this was not a tactic to delay payment by exercising a discretionary period from HMRC. Like I do with DQs. Ahem.
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Decided FC Villa of Aston is a crap name, so i'm forming 'Villa1874 FC of the Kingdom of Aston'. Give me a V!
If you want to buy the url off me, you can PM me.
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We are going back to Villa being a football equivalent of Crossroads. Shaking scenery unbelievable plots rooms full of divas and Benny in a woolly hat.
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We are going back to Villa being a football equivalent of Crossroads. Shaking scenery unbelievable plots rooms full of divas and Benny in a woolly hat.
Certainly feels that way. Why the club needs to be quick and specific about why our CEO has been suspended.
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My problem with him isn't that he's a football man, but quite the opposite. He's a businessman who sees football as a way to earn a good living and would be off tomorrow if he got a better offer.
The chances of a better offer look slimmer and slimmer by the minute.
Unlike him. /cheapshot
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My guess is that the CEO has been suspended because he has had the hair dryer off Tony Xia.
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We are going back to Villa being a football equivalent of Crossroads. Shaking scenery unbelievable plots rooms full of divas and Benny in a woolly hat.
Looks like they put Benny in charge of Finance.
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From Sky news article: "One source suggested that he had been suspended after informing Mr Xia that the club would have to file for administration if it could not meet its tax obligations."
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wyness and Bruce can do one
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It's very embarrassing, but it doesn't have to be over any significant sum.
I like issuing winding up petitions, great fun and it usually gets the attention required and my cheque arrives.
I read that HMRC would only issue a winding up order if we missed the final deadline. Yorkshire Lions on twitter says he imagines it's PAYE due months ago, which wouldn't fit with the "temporary oversight in light of Wyness going" narrative
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From Sky news article: "One source suggested that he had been suspended after informing Mr Xia that the club would have to file for administration if it could not meet its tax obligations."
Shit
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My problem with him isn't that he's a football man, but quite the opposite. He's a businessman who sees football as a way to earn a good living and would be off tomorrow if he got a better offer.
The chances of a better offer look slimmer and slimmer by the minute.
Unlike him. /cheapshot
Made me chuckle.
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Fuck sake go and get Steve Stride back on board.
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We have more than enough assets to avoid doing a Glasgow Rangers.......no panic.......gulps
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Will he do a comedy video to tell us what’s going on?
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We have more than enough assets to avoid doing a Glasgow Rangers.......no panic.......gulps
It’s not the assets you want to worry about, it’s the liabilities.
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He's been suspended for telling Xia that we have to enter administration? Really? Seems a bit ludicrous to me, equally so as to how this source has the information and given it's sensitivity, we can presume they'd be sacked tomorrow.
Or, this whole embrassing affair is just giving further ammunition for shit to be made up.
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Issuing a Winding up petition is public.
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If Xia wants Wyness out, this is the perfect and cheap way of doing it. Gross Misconduct.
It's embarrassing but not the end of the world. I'd have thought Wyness probably playing billy big bollocks and HMRC taking no prisoners. Or he's incompetent and forgotten it. Either way that's Wyness gone as it's very rare for someone to come back from a suspension these days.
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It's probably just a technicality. A fucking embarrassing one.
That's my view. I wonder that Wyness would be suspended for a technicality: that's the bit that is out of the ordinary.
So, extrapolating the HMRC and the Wyness issue is inevitable …
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I wonder how long it'll take the internet to melt.
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From Sky:
Aston Villa suspends CEO as club races to meet HMRC tax bill
The multimillion pound tax bill was due to be paid just days after Villa's Championship play-off final defeat, Sky News learns.
By Mark Kleinman, City editor
Aston Villa Football Club has suspended its chief executive just days after losing the match badged as the most lucrative in world football, as it faces the potential threat of a winding-up order over a multimillion pound tax bill.
Sky News has learnt that Villa, which last month lost the Championship play-off final against Fulham, has been given a brief extension by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs to make the payment.
One source said the bill was due to be paid last week, and that the grace period to make the payment could be as short as a week.
If HMRC did serve a winding-up order against Villa, it could threaten the existence of one of the founder members of the English Football League in 1888.
However, a source close to the club insisted on Tuesday that its board was "confident of making a substantial tax payment within days".
On Tuesday, Villa suspended Keith Wyness, its chief executive since 2016, amid what sources described as efforts by him to find new funding to see the club through its current funding crisis.
Villa's financial travails since missing out on promotion to the Premier League are well-documented, with John Terry, the former Chelsea and England central defender, leaving the club shortly after the defeat.
Tony Xia, a Chinese businessman, bought Villa from Randy Lerner in 2016 but is reported to have held talks with potential buyers in recent days.
In a statement issued in response to an enquiry from Sky News, a spokesman said:
"Aston Villa Football Club can confirm that Chief Executive, Keith Wyness, has been suspended by the club with immediate effect.
"Owner and Chairman, Dr Tony Xia will assume the role until further notice.
"There will be no further comment from the club at this time."
There is no suggestion that Mr Wyness has been accused of any wrongdoing.
One source suggested that he had been suspended after informing Mr Xia that the club would have to file for administration if it could not meet its tax obligations.
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Do HMRC issue a winding up order if the payment was meant to be made today and wasn't? I think there is more to it, we have missed payments before I would guess
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He hasn’t tweeted since before Saturday’s game...
A wild guess but perhaps he is on holiday.
With the missing tax money
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He hasn’t tweeted since before Saturday’s game...
A wild guess but perhaps he is on holiday.
With the missing tax money
It was only resting in my account.
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From Sky
One source suggested that he had been suspended after informing Mr Xia that the club would have to file for administration if it could not meet its tax obligations.
The last time I looked, Dr T didn't have a scar across one eye and own a white fluffy cat.
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Let’s not kid ourselves here. We’re are in serious shit. Things don’t add up as to Wyness would be the one suspended. Feeling like this is tip of the iceberg.
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So the club are not even saying they will pay in full,
“ confident of making a substantial payment “
Oh fuck.
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I don’t think it’s just a technicality. The club hasn’t made a profit in ages, so we’re not talking about corporation tax. That means it’s almost certainly PAYE, which means we’ve not been paying it on a monthly basis. You don’t get threatened with a winding up order for being a few days late with a payment or a clerical error that you put right when you spot it a few days later.
Everything is automated these days, payroll software makes the calculations, submits the online RTI submission to HMRC and then the payment gets sent. Unless the cash isn’t there, which considering the story this morning about selling the transfer debt is very worrying indeed.
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Having worked in ramshackle outsourced payroll operations where missed payments to staff, HMRC, Pension funds and other third parties did happen with surprising, it was never someone that far up the food chain who was culpable and required to face the consequences. And I don't recall HMRC going nuclear quite so quickly if at all. So I'm a tad worried about this.
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I don’t think it’s just a technicality. The club hasn’t made a profit in ages, so we’re not talking about corporation tax. That means it’s almost certainly PAYE, which means we’ve not been paying it on a monthly basis. You don’t get threatened with a winding up order for being a few days late with a payment or a clerical error that you put right when you spot it a few days later.
Everything is automated these days, payroll software makes the calculations, submits the online RTI submission to HMRC and then the payment gets sent. Unless the cash isn’t there, which considering the story this morning about selling the transfer debt is very worrying indeed.
Yep I am afraid you are right, this is serious shit.
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From Sky:
Aston Villa suspends CEO as club races to meet HMRC tax bill
The multimillion pound tax bill was due to be paid just days after Villa's Championship play-off final defeat, Sky News learns.
By Mark Kleinman, City editor
Aston Villa Football Club has suspended its chief executive just days after losing the match badged as the most lucrative in world football, as it faces the potential threat of a winding-up order over a multimillion pound tax bill.
Sky News has learnt that Villa, which last month lost the Championship play-off final against Fulham, has been given a brief extension by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs to make the payment.
One source said the bill was due to be paid last week, and that the grace period to make the payment could be as short as a week.
If HMRC did serve a winding-up order against Villa, it could threaten the existence of one of the founder members of the English Football League in 1888.
However, a source close to the club insisted on Tuesday that its board was "confident of making a substantial tax payment within days".
On Tuesday, Villa suspended Keith Wyness, its chief executive since 2016, amid what sources described as efforts by him to find new funding to see the club through its current funding crisis.
Villa's financial travails since missing out on promotion to the Premier League are well-documented, with John Terry, the former Chelsea and England central defender, leaving the club shortly after the defeat.
Tony Xia, a Chinese businessman, bought Villa from Randy Lerner in 2016 but is reported to have held talks with potential buyers in recent days.
In a statement issued in response to an enquiry from Sky News, a spokesman said:
"Aston Villa Football Club can confirm that Chief Executive, Keith Wyness, has been suspended by the club with immediate effect.
"Owner and Chairman, Dr Tony Xia will assume the role until further notice.
"There will be no further comment from the club at this time."
There is no suggestion that Mr Wyness has been accused of any wrongdoing.
One source suggested that he had been suspended after informing Mr Xia that the club would have to file for administration if it could not meet its tax obligations.
Makes our owner sound like a Bond villain.....
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Of course Xia being a proud man may have had a bearing on this. He'll no doubt be mortified at this turn of events.
That Sky report saying there is no suggestion Wyness has done anything wrong is bollocks, you don't suspend someone for doing everything right!
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Reducing the salary bill. Shrewd work by Tone.
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Wake me up when this is all over with.
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Of course Xia being a proud man may have had a bearing on this. He'll no doubt be mortified at this turn of events.
That Sky report saying there is no suggestion Wyness has done anything wrong is bollocks, you don't suspend someone for doing everything right!
I think by wrong they probably mean illegal in that sense!
Fucking amateurs, the finances were a shambles under Lerner, and they now look even worse under Xia.
-
Of course Xia being a proud man may have had a bearing on this. He'll no doubt be mortified at this turn of events.
That Sky report saying there is no suggestion Wyness has done anything wrong is bollocks, you don't suspend someone for doing everything right!
I don’t see how you can give Xia a free pass at this stage.
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Reducing the salary bill. Shrewd work by Tone.
Like.
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Of course Xia being a proud man may have had a bearing on this. He'll no doubt be mortified at this turn of events.
That Sky report saying there is no suggestion Wyness has done anything wrong is bollocks, you don't suspend someone for doing everything right!
I don’t see how you can give Xia a free pass at this stage.
He's owner and chairman and employs a big team to do this sort of routine stuff.
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From Sky:
Aston Villa suspends CEO as club races to meet HMRC tax bill
The multimillion pound tax bill was due to be paid just days after Villa's Championship play-off final defeat, Sky News learns.
By Mark Kleinman, City editor
Aston Villa Football Club has suspended its chief executive just days after losing the match badged as the most lucrative in world football, as it faces the potential threat of a winding-up order over a multimillion pound tax bill.
Sky News has learnt that Villa, which last month lost the Championship play-off final against Fulham, has been given a brief extension by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs to make the payment.
One source said the bill was due to be paid last week, and that the grace period to make the payment could be as short as a week.
If HMRC did serve a winding-up order against Villa, it could threaten the existence of one of the founder members of the English Football League in 1888.
However, a source close to the club insisted on Tuesday that its board was "confident of making a substantial tax payment within days".
On Tuesday, Villa suspended Keith Wyness, its chief executive since 2016, amid what sources described as efforts by him to find new funding to see the club through its current funding crisis.
Villa's financial travails since missing out on promotion to the Premier League are well-documented, with John Terry, the former Chelsea and England central defender, leaving the club shortly after the defeat.
Tony Xia, a Chinese businessman, bought Villa from Randy Lerner in 2016 but is reported to have held talks with potential buyers in recent days.
In a statement issued in response to an enquiry from Sky News, a spokesman said:
"Aston Villa Football Club can confirm that Chief Executive, Keith Wyness, has been suspended by the club with immediate effect.
"Owner and Chairman, Dr Tony Xia will assume the role until further notice.
"There will be no further comment from the club at this time."
There is no suggestion that Mr Wyness has been accused of any wrongdoing.
One source suggested that he had been suspended after informing Mr Xia that the club would have to file for administration if it could not meet its tax obligations.
Makes our owner sound like a Bond villain.....
So was he trying to find new funding as we spent too much and Xia is only now finding out ?
Either way if true so much for plan B ...
Fuck sake how does this club continue to waste money and time employing the wrong people in every department
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Of course Xia being a proud man may have had a bearing on this. He'll no doubt be mortified at this turn of events.
That Sky report saying there is no suggestion Wyness has done anything wrong is bollocks, you don't suspend someone for doing everything right!
I don’t see how you can give Xia a free pass at this stage.
He's owner and chairman and employs a big team to do this sort of routine stuff.
Which clearly he hasn't done a very good job of.
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Of course Xia being a proud man may have had a bearing on this. He'll no doubt be mortified at this turn of events.
That Sky report saying there is no suggestion Wyness has done anything wrong is bollocks, you don't suspend someone for doing everything right!
I don’t see how you can give Xia a free pass at this stage.
He's owner and chairman and employs a big team to do this sort of routine stuff.
We don’t know what instructions Wyness was working to, what he was telling Xia or why he was suspended.
This is not routine.
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Occam's razor
The most likely explanation is probably the simplest. In a world of automated payments and multilayered corpororate structures I think it's far easier to believe we've got huge cashflow problems than we forgot to pay a tax bill.
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Of course Xia being a proud man may have had a bearing on this. He'll no doubt be mortified at this turn of events.
That Sky report saying there is no suggestion Wyness has done anything wrong is bollocks, you don't suspend someone for doing everything right!
I think by wrong they probably mean illegal in that sense!
Fucking amateurs, the finances were a shambles under Lerner, and they now look even worse under Xia.
Yes it’s pretty bad when Randy’s reign is starting to look competent.
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I don’t think it’s just a technicality. The club hasn’t made a profit in ages, so we’re not talking about corporation tax. That means it’s almost certainly PAYE, which means we’ve not been paying it on a monthly basis. You don’t get threatened with a winding up order for being a few days late with a payment or a clerical error that you put right when you spot it a few days later.
Everything is automated these days, payroll software makes the calculations, submits the online RTI submission to HMRC and then the payment gets sent. Unless the cash isn’t there, which considering the story this morning about selling the transfer debt is very worrying indeed.
Working in a small business but sometimes dealing with the above chores I agree with Risso.
The only other thing I could think of was some outstanding tax for God knows what, but as Risso says, if we haven't made a profit in ages I cannot fathom what that could be.
Worrying times.
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VISA Payments system was down globally on Friday, I doubt it's that simple however.
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Starting to feel that we've been sold yet another false dawn by a bloke that i've no doubt meant well but 'may' actually be completely out of his depth in reality.
And it'll only be us poor mugs and the staff that get the chop because of cutbacks that end up suffering as usual.
You do hope we'll actually have some luck again one day.
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Xia could be totally blameless, a scenario could be we haven't been paying PAYE for months, Wyness has been covering it up as it would show he's fucked up if we can't afford those payments, and maybe Wyness was relying on us going up to cover his house of cards? So Xia now finds out we're in the shit and he's been deceived so suspends Wyness pending further investigation.
Of course the above could be totally incorrect and Xia knew. Point is that just because this is happening doesn't mean Xia is at fault.
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I don't know what to make of all this.
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I don't know what to make of all this.
In reality none of us do as we only have part of the story. It could be something that's ultimately minor and beyond being embarrassing is nothing to worry about, or we could be in massive massive shit.
So everything currently is going to be speculation.
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Xia could be totally blameless, a scenario could be we haven't been paying PAYE for months, Wyness has been covering it up as it would show he's fucked up if we can't afford those payments, and maybe Wyness was relying on us going up to cover his house of cards? So Xia now finds out we're in the shit and he's been deceived so suspends Wyness pending further investigation.
Of course the above could be totally incorrect and Xia knew. Point is that just because this is happening doesn't mean Xia is at fault.
I agree, it’s just that some people are automatically blaming Wyness and we have no idea what has been going on in the back ground.
The Buffet quote “ when the tide goes out you find out who has been swimming naked” comes to mind.
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So we've missed a tax payment. For those who have bluenose work colleagues who want to give you shit about it tomorrow just remind them that they have missing chromosomes.
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Seems like poor governance and internal structures.
I imagine that if it was a large PAYE payment then the size means Wyness must sign it off and if he's not there, it's fallen to shambles.
I wouldn't read anything into HMRC issuing an effective unless order myself as being indicative of anything.
Can the sun be met? Yes it appears so. The issue is incredibly embarrassing however and has, as we can see, created panic and much merriment elsewhere and given us further bad publicity.
If you're eeking out compliance as a tactic and it happens, I do it and have done it today in my work, then you don't get suspended as it's not a surprise. This smacks to me as gross stupidity.
Given Wyness is heading into a 2nd suspension, his HR file must be grim.
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Occam's razor indeed. Tony Xia has suspended Keith Wyness for incompetence. Tax non payment is the sub plot.
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Pffft, calm down. This is a regular occurrence throughout football. What is highly likely to be an automated payment didn’t get sent.
Paid this week problem solved.
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I'm starting to fear the things journalist Matt Scott said on Twitter are becoming true, hope I don't have to eat humble pie as I always thought he was a massive bell end.
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Occam's razor indeed. Tony Xia has suspended Keith Wyness for incompetence. Tax non payment is the sub plot.
Pretty much.
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I'm starting to fear the things journalist Matt Scott said on Twitter are becoming true, hope I don't have to eat humble pie as I always thought he was a massive bell end.
What did he say ?
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I don't know what to make of all this.
In reality none of us do as we only have part of the story. It could be something that's ultimately minor and beyond being embarrassing is nothing to worry about, or we could be in massive massive shit.
So everything currently is going to be speculation.
Not really.
1, Today we found out that they are using unusual practices to generate cash ( discounting future transfer payments). Company’s with cash or access to credit don’t do that.
2.The CEO has been suspended.
3. The statement from the club says “ a substantial payment” not that all HMRC liabilities will be bought up to date.
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He always questioned the Doc's wealth and where it came from. He got in a few verbals with Wyness, so he's probably feeling pretty smug now and he's naturally smug.
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And the causes of the missed payment, how much Xia knew and what Wyness was up to are currently pure speculation. As is how much shit we are, or aren't, in.
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And the causes of the missed payment, how much Xia knew and what Wyness was up to are currently pure speculation. As is how much shit we are, or aren't, in.
I think the cause of the missed payment is pretty clear.
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Occam's razor indeed. Tony Xia has suspended Keith Wyness for incompetence. Tax non payment is the sub plot.
Pretty much.
.I really hope you're right
But given the shit storm why not issue a statement to say we'll pay the due amount in full? That Xia remains committed to the club?
I guess we have to wait and see but I'm definitely in the worried camp
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Visa payments have been down recently, that must be it.... ha
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And the causes of the missed payment, how much Xia knew and what Wyness was up to are currently pure speculation. As is how much shit we are, or aren't, in.
I think the cause of the missed payment is pretty clear.
It's still only you making an educated guess. Hence "think". We're all just guessing at present.
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My accountant friend reckons you're given multiple warnings before any mention of a winding up order is brought to the table.
If that is the case, then i am really fearful about the state of our club behind closed doors.
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I'm fed up of all this.
The fans don't deserve this. I just don't know what to think and am worried.
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My accountant friend reckons you're given multiple warnings before any mention of a winding up order is brought to the table.
If that is the case, then i am really fearful about the state of our club behind closed doors.
yep. when it gets to the stage where they're threatening you with winding up, you know this has been going on for a long time
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And the causes of the missed payment, how much Xia knew and what Wyness was up to are currently pure speculation. As is how much shit we are, or aren't, in.
the cause of the missed payment is clear.
It's still only you making an educated guess. Hence "think". We're all just guessing at present.
Why didn’t they say they would pay the HMRC arrears in full then?
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Get Steve Stride in.
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You can get who you want in, if there’s no money we’re stuffed.
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As i'm not Xia or Wyness I don't know do I. I could speculate like you are, which is exactly my point that for some reason you are disagreeing with, despite the fact you are speculating as you don't know for sure.
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BBC Midlands Today just quoted a figure of "several million pounds". Fuck.
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Well, boy do I wish Fredericks had been sent off early now.
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I get the feeling this is not the greatest of news.
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BBC Midlands Today just quoted a figure of "several million pounds". Fuck.
Which clearly would be a payment that has been building up.
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The Beeb are also saying that it's been said that Wyness being suspended has nowt to do with the HMRC issue. So who knows.
Championship side Aston Villa have suspended chief executive Keith Wyness.
The announcement came as it emerged Villa are working with HM Revenue & Customs to resolve an unpaid tax bill, although that is not thought to be connected to Wyness' suspension.
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well at least if we go into administration we should be easier to sell. Always look on the bright side.........
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BBC Midlands Today just quoted a figure of "several million pounds". Fuck.
Sky reported it as "The multimillion pound tax bill".
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If we can't make the tax payment in full then it's pretty clear that The Doctor is a charlatan and hasn't got a pot to piss in.
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I don't know what to make of all this.
In reality none of us do as we only have part of the story. It could be something that's ultimately minor and beyond being embarrassing is nothing to worry about, or we could be in massive massive shit.
So everything currently is going to be speculation.
Not really.
1, Today we found out that they are using unusual practices to generate cash ( discounting future transfer payments). Company’s with cash or access to credit don’t do that.
2.The CEO has been suspended.
3. The statement from the club says “ a substantial payment” not that all HMRC liabilities will be bought up to date.
And that they are 'confident' of paying it. Not that they will.
I was confident on my first and second driving test. Fat lot of good it did me.
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“we understand that the payment will be made in the next 48 hours” (source BBC).
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Aston Villa have suspended CEO Keith Wyness. The move comes at the same time as it`s emerged that Aston Villa are working with HMRC to resolve an unpaid tax bill. However, BBCWM understands that the suspension of Wyness and the unpaid tax bill are in no way connected. #avfc https://t.co/c7atKhy7W2
Not that WM is a great station but the beeb do have pretty high standards in reporting substantiated facts (which is why sky often break news first)
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Don't panic everyone a chauffeur in Little Aston is revving up AV1 as I type, to deliver a cheque to Villa Park, made payable to HMRC
His employer will rock up in morning astride a white charger and take up residence at B6 - all hail Sir Doug !
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Recent developments have not necessarily been to Villa’s advantage.
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Oh for the strong and stable days of Lerner, Fox and co.......
FFS.
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I don't know what to make of all this.
In reality none of us do as we only have part of the story. It could be something that's ultimately minor and beyond being embarrassing is nothing to worry about, or we could be in massive massive shit.
So everything currently is going to be speculation.
Not really.
1, Today we found out that they are using unusual practices to generate cash ( discounting future transfer payments). Company’s with cash or access to credit don’t do that.
2.The CEO has been suspended.
3. The statement from the club says “ a substantial payment” not that all HMRC liabilities will be bought up to date.
And that they are 'confident' of paying it. Not that they will.
I was confident on my first and second driving test. Fat lot of good it did me.
I was confident Saturday before last. Ditto.
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Maybe they're just waiting to sell Grealish.
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$ panic on the streets of Birmingham, hang the DJ, hang the DJ, hang the DJ...
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Maybe they're just waiting to sell Grealish.
:(
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As i'm not Xia or Wyness I don't know do I. I could speculate like you are, which is exactly my point that for some reason you are disagreeing with, despite the fact you are speculating as you don't know for sure.
If they had the money to pay the outstanding they would pay it and say they are paying it.
Instead they have chosen to say they are confident of making a substantial payment.
I am not sure how much clearer it can get.
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We are going back to Villa being a football equivalent of Crossroads. Shaking scenery unbelievable plots rooms full of divas and Benny in a woolly hat.
.....and the outdoors scenes filmed in Cheltenham. Villa are moving to Whaddon Road
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We're in deep shit there's no denying it, when an institution say's things like it's 'confident of paying' a tax bill of unknown value you have to wonder that actually they can't put their hands on the money they need without some assistance.
I may be leaping to conclusions here but fucking hell, Xia and Co look like absolute fucking amateurs right now.
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Aston Villa have suspended CEO Keith Wyness. The move comes at the same time as it`s emerged that Aston Villa are working with HMRC to resolve an unpaid tax bill. However, BBCWM understands that the suspension of Wyness and the unpaid tax bill are in no way connected. #avfc https://t.co/c7atKhy7W2
Not that WM is a great station but the beeb do have pretty high standards in reporting substantiated facts (which is why sky often break news first)
Sky reported 'On Tuesday, Villa suspended Keith Wyness, its chief executive since 2016, amid what sources described as efforts by him to find new funding to see the club through its current funding crisis.'
So who has he been speaking to?
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yep if they haven't got the money to pay "several million pounds" in one go, i think we're gonna be seeing a few departures in the next month
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We're in deep shit there's no denying it, when an institution say's things like it's 'confident of paying' a tax bill of unknown value you have to wonder that actually they can't put their hands on the money they need without some assistance.
I may be leaping to conclusions here but fucking hell, Xia and Co look like absolute fucking amateurs right now.
Yes what I would say is that there is nothing but bad in this, the speculation is around where it sits on the scale of bad.
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As i'm not Xia or Wyness I don't know do I. I could speculate like you are, which is exactly my point that for some reason you are disagreeing with, despite the fact you are speculating as you don't know for sure.
If they had the money to pay the outstanding they would pay it and say they are paying it.
Instead they have chosen to say they are confident of making a substantial payment.
I am not sure how much clearer it can get.
I don't think they've made a formal statement on the tax payment at all have they?
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As i'm not Xia or Wyness I don't know do I. I could speculate like you are, which is exactly my point that for some reason you are disagreeing with, despite the fact you are speculating as you don't know for sure.
If they had the money to pay the outstanding they would pay it and say they are paying it.
Instead they have chosen to say they are confident of making a substantial payment.
I am not sure how much clearer it can get.
I don't think they've made a formal statement on the tax payment at all have they?
Nope.
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With no income coming in and Xia prevented from bringing in money from China we literally do not have a pot to wee in
I assume this is why Bruce has not been consulted about finances for next season - I wonder if the PAYE payments relating the the loanees remain unpaid? Having previously worked for the Revenue it's highly unlikely they would make such overtures unless this was a regular or cumulative debt
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As i'm not Xia or Wyness I don't know do I. I could speculate like you are, which is exactly my point that for some reason you are disagreeing with, despite the fact you are speculating as you don't know for sure.
If they had the money to pay the outstanding they would pay it and say they are paying it.
Instead they have chosen to say they are confident of making a substantial payment.
I am not sure how much clearer it can get.
I don't think they've made a formal statement on the tax payment at all have they?
-
As i'm not Xia or Wyness I don't know do I. I could speculate like you are, which is exactly my point that for some reason you are disagreeing with, despite the fact you are speculating as you don't know for sure.
If they had the money to pay the outstanding they would pay it and say they are paying it.
Instead they have chosen to say they are confident of making a substantial payment.
I am not sure how much clearer it can get.
Find me the part of the club statement which references what you're saying.
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As i'm not Xia or Wyness I don't know do I. I could speculate like you are, which is exactly my point that for some reason you are disagreeing with, despite the fact you are speculating as you don't know for sure.
If they had the money to pay the outstanding they would pay it and say they are paying it.
Instead they have chosen to say they are confident of making a substantial payment.
I am not sure how much clearer it can get.
The club haven't said that at all. It's currently speculation, same as some places have said it will be paid in full asap. Which is also speculation.
As it stands the club haven't said a word about HMRC, just this
Aston Villa Football Club can confirm that Chief Executive, Keith Wyness, has been suspended by the club with immediate effect.
Owner and Chairman, Dr Tony Xia will assume the role until further notice.
There will be no further comment from the club at this time.
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With no income coming in and Xia prevented from bringing in money from China we literally do not have a pot to wee in
I assume this is why Bruce has not been consulted about finances for next season - I wonder if the PAYE payments relating the the loanees remain unpaid? Having previously worked for the Revenue it's highly unlikely they would make such overtures unless this was a regular or cumulative debt
yep as someone who has been on the other side of the coin, once they get to threatening you with winding up, its not because someone inadvertently forgot to write a cheque
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As i'm not Xia or Wyness I don't know do I. I could speculate like you are, which is exactly my point that for some reason you are disagreeing with, despite the fact you are speculating as you don't know for sure.
If they had the money to pay the outstanding they would pay it and say they are paying it.
Instead they have chosen to say they are confident of making a substantial payment.
I am not sure how much clearer it can get.
Find me the part of the club statement which references what you're saying.
Not on the OS but a direct Quote.
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I don’t think it’s just a technicality. The club hasn’t made a profit in ages, so we’re not talking about corporation tax. That means it’s almost certainly PAYE, which means we’ve not been paying it on a monthly basis. You don’t get threatened with a winding up order for being a few days late with a payment or a clerical error that you put right when you spot it a few days later.
Perhaps times have changed Risso but didn’t HMRC used to be rather more lenient regards PAYE compared to VAT? Ie. Non payment of VAT was an absolute no-no whereas non-payment of PAYE was more of a bend over son and bite this exercise book while I give you a sound thrashing. So to speak.
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Not on the OS but a direct Quote.
You just said it was on the OS, who was the direct quote from?
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I was always sceptical that the Chinese controls on capital outlow were a major problem for us. But maybe they are
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We are going back to Villa being a football equivalent of Crossroads. Shaking scenery unbelievable plots rooms full of divas and Benny in a woolly hat.
.....and the outdoors scenes filmed in Cheltenham. Villa are moving to Whaddon Road
You mean the Jonny Rocks Stadium...
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As i'm not Xia or Wyness I don't know do I. I could speculate like you are, which is exactly my point that for some reason you are disagreeing with, despite the fact you are speculating as you don't know for sure.
If they had the money to pay the outstanding they would pay it and say they are paying it.
Instead they have chosen to say they are confident of making a substantial payment.
I am not sure how much clearer it can get.
Find me the part of the club statement which references what you're saying.
Not on the OS but a direct Quote.
You're being put to proof.
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Ron Toss saying the bill was missed last Friday and will be paid and Villa have no other outstanding issues with HMRC, could be the VISA issue after all.
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Ron Toss saying the bill was missed last Friday and will be paid and Villa have no other outstanding issues with HMRC, could be the VISA issue after all.
PAYE would have been due on 19th (with a couple of extra days allowed if paying by bank transfer)
Don’t see how the VISA problems would affect this. A HMRC bill for a company the size of Villa is not something that’s likely to be paid by card
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As i'm not Xia or Wyness I don't know do I. I could speculate like you are, which is exactly my point that for some reason you are disagreeing with, despite the fact you are speculating as you don't know for sure.
If they had the money to pay the outstanding they would pay it and say they are paying it.
Instead they have chosen to say they are confident of making a substantial payment.
I am not sure how much clearer it can get.
Find me the part of the club statement which references what you're saying.
Not on the OS but a direct Quote.
You're being put to proof.
https://news.sky.com/story/aston-villa-suspends-ceo-as-club-races-to-meet-hmrc-tax-bill-11395857
Aston Villa Football Club has suspended its chief executive just days after losing the match badged as the most lucrative in world football, as it faces the potential threat of a winding-up order over a multimillion pound tax bill.
Sky News has learnt that Villa, which last month lost the Championship play-off final against Fulham, has been given a brief extension by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs to make the payment.
One source said the bill was due to be paid last week, and that the grace period to make the payment could be as short as a week.
If HMRC did serve a winding-up order against Villa, it could threaten the existence of one of the founder members of the English Football League in 1888.
However, a source close to the club insisted on Tuesday that its board was "confident of making a substantial tax payment within days".
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Ron Toss saying the bill was missed last Friday and will be paid and Villa have no other outstanding issues with HMRC, could be the VISA issue after all.
would payments be made to the Revenue via BACS or CHAPS system rather than VISA .....ie directly through the Bank ?
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Kind of card I wouldn't mind half an hour online with!
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Ron Toss saying the bill was missed last Friday and will be paid and Villa have no other outstanding issues with HMRC, could be the VISA issue after all.
Most of Toms sources drink in Walmley Social Club, I cant say I’m reassured but I’m not going to wet the bed about it.
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Look,we can make all the excuses in the world but when something smells fishy it nearly always is.
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I reckon Tony's changed his card. Some companies don't accept the Ocean Finance credit card.
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For starters info from a "source" often turns out to be bollocks. And even if it's true, "substantial" could be all of it. Let's say we owe £3m, paying £3m in one go is making a substantial tax payment.
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HMRC would not act like this if one set of PAYE payments were missed. This must have happened on a number of occasions.
Yes something is wrong
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How about Wyness was found out sounding out other interested parties for a Villa takeover on the cheap with the tax bill being used as a sword of Damocles over Xia?
I think it could be the annual balancing payment for PAYE payments for the past year which could have been on its way last Friday.......... but who knows?
A good bit of stirring by journos prior to them going off on their Russian expense holidays?
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No money back, no sell on fee.
Claret or Blue, rich or poor
Our player sale fees are on the flooooooor
God bless Jack Grealish, long live Jack Grealish.
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As a little light relief to this entirely predictable humiliation I pay with Visa, including my taxes. Last Friday I got a shitstorm of texts and e mails from HSBC saying I was overdrawn by £143 .42 Account numbers, debits, everything. What was I going to do about it? Fuck all I replied I do not have an account with HSBC. Go and fuck yourselves.
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Well this is all a bit embarrassing, let's hope for some positivity soon eh?
The Visa thing affected lots of people and would not get the CEO suspended. Must be more serious than than.
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Up shit creek without a paddle, canoe or clothes.
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As others have said, the red light is selling off those transfer rights. You don't do that unless you need the money now.
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I remember HMRC coming along and wanting to take the keys for my van as I was a week or so late with the PAYE, I delivered a rebuke whilst adjusting something on it with a spanner in my hand and the fella went away saying he felt theatened, even his boss thought he was a fanny when we spoke later.
Not sure if that adds anything to the debate.....
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Our year end was 31st May same as the deadline date for tax. Maybe we were trying to make our cash flow look better than it was. In which case that would be a suspendable offence I guess.
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As a little light relief to this entirely predictable humiliation I pay with Visa, including my taxes. Last Friday I got a shitstorm of texts and e mails from HSBC saying I was overdrawn by £143 .42 Account numbers, debits, everything. What was I going to do about it? Fuck all I replied I do not have an account with HSBC. Go and fuck yourselves.
Maybe that's why Mr Wyness has been suspended Brian, he also got that same text from HSBC.
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Up shit creek without a paddle, canoe or clothes.
and the creek has dried up
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HMRC would not act like this if one set of PAYE payments were missed. This must have happened on a number of occasions.
Yes something is wrong
HMRC demand what's due or they issue. What's not common place?
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Sources tell me we've suspended Wyness because we have no budget for next season after he submitted his pie expenses.
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Sources tell me we've suspended Wyness because we have no budget for next season after he submitted his pie expenses.
Close the thread.
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As a little light relief to this entirely predictable humiliation I pay with Visa, including my taxes. Last Friday I got a shitstorm of texts and e mails from HSBC saying I was overdrawn by £143 .42 Account numbers, debits, everything. What was I going to do about it? Fuck all I replied I do not have an account with HSBC. Go and fuck yourselves.
Maybe that's why Mr Wyness has been suspended Brian, he also got that same text from HSBC.
is Dr Xia HSBC? Hong Kong and Shanghai Bull Crapper?
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We all better lump on that 12-1 that Paddy Power is offering on Engurland to win the World Cup. We had a whip round for Tommy Doc to buy Brucie Rioch. We better have another one to save Tony from the Marshalsea (Dickens debtor's prison).
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Just got home from work. Have IT shopped Keith to Tony for his abuse of Alexa?
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I would imagine ours is at the larger end of the tax liability. Therefore HMRC will not mess around. However, a winding up petition wouldn’t immediately follow non payment usually. There will be a shit load of late payment interest though.
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HMRC would not act like this if one set of PAYE payments were missed. This must have happened on a number of occasions.
Yes something is wrong
HMRC demand what's due or they issue. What's not common place?
You can believe me or not, and I dont want to go into my business dealings with HMRC, but if one set of PAYE payments are not meet, you do not get a winding up notice. More payments have not been made or a cumulative debt has built up. Well thats my personal experience.
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Just what we need at a time for remoulding for next season , a suspended Chief executive and a Chairman in China. Who is the next most senior person at our club in this country ?
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Just what we need at a time for remoulding for next season , a suspended Chief executive and a Chairman in China. Who is the next most senior person at our club in this country ?
Probably you. ;-)
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Just what we need at a time for remoulding for next season , a suspended Chief executive and a Chairman in China. Who is the next most senior person at our club in this country ?
Micah Richards
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I would imagine ours is at the larger end of the tax liability. Therefore HMRC will not mess around. However, a winding up petition wouldn’t immediately follow non payment usually. They’ll be a shit load of late payment interest though.
. IF we are having problems its unlikely we haven't discussed it with HMRC. The worrying thing is if they're not just worried about a payment made late, but doubt our ability to come up with the money in any event.
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Wyness looked okay playing the Northampton gig the other night.
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Just what we need at a time for remoulding for next season , a suspended Chief executive and a Chairman in China. Who is the next most senior person at our club in this country ?
Time for the president emeritus to step up.
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Recent developments have not necessarily been to Villa’s advantage.
Well Wyness going is a positive but this tax shit stinks.
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Aston Villa have suspended CEO Keith Wyness. The move comes at the same time as it`s emerged that Aston Villa are working with HMRC to resolve an unpaid tax bill. However, BBCWM understands that the suspension of Wyness and the unpaid tax bill are in no way connected. #avfc https://t.co/c7atKhy7W2
Not that WM is a great station but the beeb do have pretty high standards in reporting substantiated facts (which is why sky often break news first)
Sky reported 'On Tuesday, Villa suspended Keith Wyness, its chief executive since 2016, amid what sources described as efforts by him to find new funding to see the club through its current funding crisis.'
So who has he been speaking to?
Probably the Provident .
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Can't pay? We'll take it away...
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/34536800_2119335728095567_1875681311302090752_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=4b5b0ca185bb842c7881330592e77277&oe=5BBC5941)
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Can't pay? We'll take it away...
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/34536800_2119335728095567_1875681311302090752_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=4b5b0ca185bb842c7881330592e77277&oe=5BBC5941)
I laughed and cried
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Hearing from several sources now that Aston Villa's financial difficulties are serious. This could very well lead to administration unless a buyer steps in to rescue it. Whether Xia would talk sensible numbers, though, is quite another matter. #AVFC
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Can't pay? We'll take it away...
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/34536800_2119335728095567_1875681311302090752_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=4b5b0ca185bb842c7881330592e77277&oe=5BBC5941)
Genius but not funny
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Can't pay? We'll take it away...
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/34536800_2119335728095567_1875681311302090752_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=4b5b0ca185bb842c7881330592e77277&oe=5BBC5941)
Wow, didnt expect a picture of our two new forwards quite so soon - well done, Legion.
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Ah, so this is what it feels like to be a Small Heath fan. Financial uncertainty, humiliation and the feeling that your club’s had it’s pants pulled down by another bunch of charlatans.
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The tax bill is nothing to do with the suspension, so I have just read elsewhere. Maybe Wyness has been suspended for pilfering. Those pies can be quite expensive.
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Big up all the people who refused to listen to those of us who questioned Xia's wealth.
Billionaires don't watch tax bills go unpaid.
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If HMRC have only threatened to petition for winding up so far, then the only way that could be public knowledge is if they told the press (which they wouldn't do). I suppose someone at the club could have leaked it, but its quite possibly being exaggerated.
Far too much specualtion and not enough facts to get worried yet in my opinion. It could easily be just a cock-up.
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Can't pay? We'll take it away...
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/34536800_2119335728095567_1875681311302090752_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=4b5b0ca185bb842c7881330592e77277&oe=5BBC5941)
Wow, didnt expect a picture of our two new forwards quite so soon - well done, Legion.
I'm not keen on the new away shirts!
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This doesn’t sound like slashing wrists time. Apologies if posted previously:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44376099
Championship side Aston Villa have suspended chief executive Keith Wyness.
The announcement came as it emerged Villa are working with HM Revenue & Customs to resolve an unpaid tax bill, although that is in no way connected to Wyness' suspension.
It is understood that the club will pay the outstanding amount within the next 48 hours.
Villa said that owner and chairman Dr
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HMRC would not act like this if one set of PAYE payments were missed. This must have happened on a number of occasions.
Yes something is wrong
HMRC demand what's due or they issue. What's not common place?
You can believe me or not, and I dont want to go into my business dealings with HMRC, but if one set of PAYE payments are not meet, you do not get a winding up notice. More payments have not been made or a cumulative debt has built up. Well thats my personal experience.
Presumably if we have been withholding PAYE payments for a lengthy period of time, a number of people in the club would have known - finance director, company secretary. What on earth has been going on?
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Just what we need at a time for remoulding for next season , a suspended Chief executive and a Chairman in China. Who is the next most senior person at our club in this country ?
Bella.
Talk is we are looking at ramping up the professionalism in the place after this latest fiasco.
Gerry Cottle come on down.
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Can't pay? We'll take it away...
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/34536800_2119335728095567_1875681311302090752_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=4b5b0ca185bb842c7881330592e77277&oe=5BBC5941)
Wow, didnt expect a picture of our two new forwards quite so soon - well done, Legion.
I'm not keen on the new away shirts!
The radios will at least mean that they were not so isolated as Grabban and Hogan
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Big up all the people who refused to listen to those of us who questioned Xia's wealth.
Billionaires don't watch tax bills go unpaid.
It was the shoes, I, along with many,including you Paulie, knew right away, straight out of the bookies.
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Hearing from several sources now that Aston Villa's financial difficulties are serious. This could very well lead to administration unless a buyer steps in to rescue it. Whether Xia would talk sensible numbers, though, is quite another matter. #AVFC
So who said that then?
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Can't pay? We'll take it away...
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/34536800_2119335728095567_1875681311302090752_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=4b5b0ca185bb842c7881330592e77277&oe=5BBC5941)
Wow, didnt expect a picture of our two new forwards quite so soon - well done, Legion.
I'm not keen on the new away shirts!
The radios will at least mean that they were not so isolated as Grabban and Hogan
I feel a punathon coming on. Villa fans and our gallows humour!! One Baton Villa, there's only one Baton Villa.
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Some talksport bloke called Matt Scott.
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Just what we need at a time for remoulding for next season , a suspended Chief executive and a Chairman in China. Who is the next most senior person at our club in this country ?
Probably you. ;-)
Let’s face it I don’t think any of us could have run the club worse that it has been for the last ten years if we tried. I couldn’t win less than zero trophies could I ?
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Just what we need at a time for remoulding for next season , a suspended Chief executive and a Chairman in China. Who is the next most senior person at our club in this country ?
Micah Richards
Ha!
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Some talksport bloke called Matt Scott.
He's a bit of a bell end but he is well connected
Head says wait and see how the dust settles
But I can't keep off the fucking internet scouting for more info
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Big up all the people who refused to listen to those of us who questioned Xia's wealth.
Billionaires don't watch tax bills go unpaid.
It was the shoes, I, along with many,including you Paulie, knew right away, straight out of the bookies.
I fucking knew it! They were terrible. Did he get any better ones later? If so, I suppose they were courtesy of us.
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HMRC would not act like this if one set of PAYE payments were missed. This must have happened on a number of occasions.
Yes something is wrong
HMRC demand what's due or they issue. What's not common place?
You can believe me or not, and I dont want to go into my business dealings with HMRC, but if one set of PAYE payments are not meet, you do not get a winding up notice. More payments have not been made or a cumulative debt has built up. Well thats my personal experience.
Presumably if we have been withholding PAYE payments for a lengthy period of time, a number of people in the club would have known - finance director, company secretary. What on earth has been going on?
Yes, a very good question
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He's not that well connected if his "sources" are only telling him this hours after the story broke.
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Fairly feisty exchanges a year ago including our then CEO.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Matt5cott/status/865508517364379648
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And under Bruce we were all saying our Attacks were non existent
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I have a gut feeling we’re in a lot of trouble. If you add up all the recent stuff, including Tony’s statement which didn’t solely point to FFP, then it’s starting to sound really bad.
It would be nice for once to have some actual, provable, good news about Villa turning around.
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All those complex mathematical head scratchers when the Dr posted transfer updates on twitter and he can't even calculate his tax bill.
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If wyness has been suspended not because of the unpaid tax bill, could it be that he was flirting with possible take over people?
It strange that a takeover story appeared in a rag earlier in the week and NO-ONE has denied it.
Not the club, not Xia or even the named protagonist.
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Bloody hell, someone wake me up from this bloody nightmare.
This is the Villa, my club, what the f*ck is going on?
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Sources tell me we've suspended Wyness because we have no budget for next season after he submitted his pie expenses.
There’s a sauces/sources/pie gag in there somewhere but it’s been a long day and I don’t have the wit any road
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Wyness has a salary package of £357,000 per year.
good value
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Again
Yeah.
Fat bastard.
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It's the curse of John Terry.
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Sources tell me we've suspended Wyness because we have no budget for next season after he submitted his pie expenses.
There’s a sauces/sources/pie gag in there somewhere but it’s been a long day and I don’t have the wit any road
Pie in the sky?
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We're doomed I tell ya...doooomed.
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Obviously there's a trend being set:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jun/05/crystal-palace-threatened-with-being-dissolved-over-late-accounts
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/06/05/aston-villa-plunged-financial-crisis-42m-tax-bill-leads-threat/
Percy usually spot on. Says Tony not skint but flow of money from China restricted by Chinese government
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so its a £4.2 million tax bill
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Wyness has a salary package of £357,000 per year.
good value
Better value than Fox at a reported £3m.
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/06/05/aston-villa-plunged-financial-crisis-42m-tax-bill-leads-threat/ Percy usually spot on. Says Tony not skint but flow of money from China restricted by Chinese government
If we can’t solve short term cash flow then we have serious serious issues. If the Dr cannot get money into the club then surely he must be considering selling?
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There is now an article in the FT using he headline Aston Villa in financial crisis after missed tax payment written by Murad Ahmed, Leisure Correspondent and quoting unnamed sources within the club stating that there is indeed a cash flow problem.
I would paste it here but they have a fairly stringent copyright policy and I can do without any further communications from Sue, Grabbit and Runne or Shylock, Schuster and Shlock threatening to squeeze out what is left of my toothpaste.
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Convenient, that.
"I've got shit loads of money, I want to put it into the club, but the government won't let me".
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In Steve’s words when is ok to get hysterical?
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so its a £4.2 million tax bill
My heart skipped a beat as I read it first as £42m.
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/06/05/aston-villa-plunged-financial-crisis-42m-tax-bill-leads-threat/
Percy usually spot on. Says Tony not skint but flow of money from China restricted by Chinese government
Dr Tony Xia, the owner and chairman, is alleged to be struggling with cash-flow issues in China, which restricts the distribution of money leaving the country. There is no suggestion that Xia is struggling financially.
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There is now an article in the FT using he headline Aston Villa in financial crisis after missed tax payment written by Murad Ahmed, Leisure Correspondent and quoting unnamed sources within the club stating that there is indeed a cash flow problem.
I would paste it here but they have a fairly stringent copyright policy and I can do without any further communications from Sue, Grabbit and Runne or Shylock, Schuster and Shlock threatening to squeeze out what is left of my toothpaste.
Ex-fucking-scuse me?
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There is now an article in the FT using he headline Aston Villa in financial crisis after missed tax payment written by Murad Ahmed, Leisure Correspondent and quoting unnamed sources within the club stating that there is indeed a cash flow problem.
I would paste it here but they have a fairly stringent copyright policy and I can do without any further communications from Sue, Grabbit and Runne or Shylock, Schuster and Shlock threatening to squeeze out what is left of my toothpaste.
Ex-fucking-scuse me?
I meant Flywheel, Shyster and Flywheel which is a Marx Brothers spoof on Radio 4 Extra, but the brain is scrambled.
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Assuming for one minute this is as bad as people are fearing, one silver lining to it all is that if you go on Twitter you can (Or could find as he's probably deleted it now) Stan Collymore telling Villa fans "I told ya so" and Newcastle United fans proving what snowflakes they are saying that this is karma for NINE YEARS AGO when we sung a few songs and a few banners were hung because they'd been relegated. Northern softies.
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There is now an article in the FT using he headline Aston Villa in financial crisis after missed tax payment written by Murad Ahmed, Leisure Correspondent and quoting unnamed sources within the club stating that there is indeed a cash flow problem.
I would paste it here but they have a fairly stringent copyright policy and I can do without any further communications from Sue, Grabbit and Runne or Shylock, Schuster and Shlock threatening to squeeze out what is left of my toothpaste.
Ex-fucking-scuse me?
I meant Flywheel, Shyster and Flywheel which is a Marx Brothers spoof on Radio 4 Extra, but the brain is scrambled.
PHEW. You can imagine my, er, concern seeing three names like that lined up together! No, Marx brothers is legit. Legit-plus actually.
Anyway back to despair.
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Looks like the issues of moving cash from China is going to be as big an obstacle for us as FFP.
Way things are going I can honestly see Xia selling up to compound things further into the unknown.
I suppose one small comfort if we can get through this and actually pay our bills is at least we can get in a more dynamic and forward thinking CEO as Wyness did seem to be a bit old school in his approach and it hasn't exactly achieved great results so far.
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so its a £4.2 million tax bill
My heart skipped a beat as I read it first as £42m.
£42 or £4.2 it matters not if you aint got it.
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There is now an article in the FT using he headline Aston Villa in financial crisis after missed tax payment written by Murad Ahmed, Leisure Correspondent and quoting unnamed sources within the club stating that there is indeed a cash flow problem.
I would paste it here but they have a fairly stringent copyright policy and I can do without any further communications from Sue, Grabbit and Runne or Shylock, Schuster and Shlock threatening to squeeze out what is left of my toothpaste.
Ex-fucking-scuse me?
I meant Flywheel, Shyster and Flywheel which is a Marx Brothers spoof on Radio 4 Extra, but the brain is scrambled.
PHEW. You can imagine my, er, concern seeing three names like that lined up together! No, Marx brothers is legit. Legit-plus actually.
Anyway back to despair.
I well take your point, Monty.
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Why isn't it serious enough to be on the yellow ticker on Sky Sports News and John Sheridan being appointed Carlisle manager is?
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There is now an article in the FT using he headline Aston Villa in financial crisis after missed tax payment written by Murad Ahmed, Leisure Correspondent and quoting unnamed sources within the club stating that there is indeed a cash flow problem.
I would paste it here but they have a fairly stringent copyright policy and I can do without any further communications from Sue, Grabbit and Runne or Shylock, Schuster and Shlock threatening to squeeze out what is left of my toothpaste.
Ex-fucking-scuse me?
I meant Flywheel, Shyster and Flywheel which is a Marx Brothers spoof on Radio 4 Extra, but the brain is scrambled.
PHEW. You can imagine my, er, concern seeing three names like that lined up together! No, Marx brothers is legit. Legit-plus actually.
Anyway back to despair.
I well take your point, Monty.
This was disturbingly amicably resolved.
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/06/05/aston-villa-plunged-financial-crisis-42m-tax-bill-leads-threat/
Percy usually spot on. Says Tony not skint but flow of money from China restricted by Chinese government
Dr Tony Xia, the owner and chairman, is alleged to be struggling with cash-flow issues in China, which restricts the distribution of money leaving the country. There is no suggestion that Xia is struggling financially.
From what I understand, the restriction is more down to personal money rather than corporate. Maybe Pat Mac can clear this up?
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It all goes back to that 2-2 v Stoke under O’Neill, that was the beginning of the end.
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will this put back Xia’s prediction of European domination within 5 years by much do you think
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Why didn't Barry pay the tax bill?
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will this put back Xia’s prediction of European domination within 5 years by much do you think
Maybe they'll bring back the Anglo-Italian cup?
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I see that Season Tickets went back on sale today.
I suspect that the TO is not suffering under a weight of calls at the moment
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will this put back Xia’s prediction of European domination within 5 years by much do you think
Maybe they'll bring back the Anglo-Italian cup?
If we beat the Isle of Wight in a friendly, would that count?
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will this put back Xia’s prediction of European domination within 5 years by much do you think
Maybe they'll bring back the Anglo-Italian cup?
If we beat the Isle of Wight in a friendly, would that count?
Does Swansea away count as playing in Europe?
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Given what the ‘HM’ in HMRC stands for, couldn’t William get his grandmother to waive the liability ?
What’s the point in having friends in high places if you don’t call in the odd favour
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will this put back Xia’s prediction of European domination within 5 years by much do you think
Maybe they'll bring back the Anglo-Italian cup?
If we beat the Isle of Wight in a friendly, would that count?
Does Swansea away count as playing in Europe?
Might be playing Merthyr Tydfil
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I had a Twitter tweety thing from Kidderminster barriers informing me of an upcoming friendly, perhaps it’s an error? Are we now in the one below conference?
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Wyness has a salary package of £357,000 per year.
good value
Better value than Fox at a reported £3m.
and he eat fox
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so its a £4.2 million tax bill
My heart skipped a beat as I read it first as £42m.
£42 or £4.2 it matters not if you aint got it.
no Gabby had it in his wages
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Given what the ‘HM’ in HMRC stands for, couldn’t William get his grandmother to waive the liability ?
What’s the point in having friends in high places if you don’t call in the odd favour
Quite right. If he were a real fan he’d march her to Villa Park and have her trot off a hefty cheque for inconveniencing us. It’s quite unacceptable having her drag us through the mire like this. She could then divorce Philip, marry Keith and make him Wyness His Royal Highness.
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It all goes back to that 2-2 v Stoke under O’Neill, that was the beginning of the end.
and Bruce being so negative finished us off.
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It all goes back to that 2-2 v Stoke under O’Neill, that was the beginning of the end.
and Bruce being so negative finished us off.
Personally, I blame Eric Djemba-Djemba
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Some talksport bloke called Matt Scott.
He's a bit of a bell end but he is well connected
Head says wait and see how the dust settles
But I can't keep off the fucking internet scouting for more info
Wasn't Simon Jordan hinting at some of this the other day.
He's been in football for years and people in football obviously talk about stuff that dosen't always reach the public domain so considering he's been a bit of a cheerleader for us in the last year, that had me a bit concerned.
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somebody said wyness has been suspended due to remarks made on social media about a referee with reference to being disabled
probably bs
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John Percy reckons insolvency expert Trevor Birch is now working closely with the club.
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Imagine the scenes at Buckingham Palace when Prince William's football team Aston Villa is wound up by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs...
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John Percy reckons insolvency expert Trevor Birch is now working closely with the club.
Oh good.
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somebody said wyness has been suspended due to remarks made on social media about a referee with reference to being disabled
probably bs
That was a year ago
https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/other-soccer/aston-villa-chief-executive-suspended-for-disabled-reference-towards-referees-35782784.html
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somebody said wyness has been suspended due to remarks made on social media about a referee with reference to being disabled
probably bs
He had a 2 week FA suspension yonks ago over that. This is a suspension by the club.
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John Percy reckons insolvency expert Trevor Birch is now working closely with the club.
Oh good.
Quote:
He has acted in a number of high profile, complex Administration cases including most recently Portsmouth FC and Heart Of Midlothian PLC
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Did he not work wi
John Percy reckons insolvency expert Trevor Birch is now working closely with the club.
Oh good.
Quote:
He has acted in a number of high profile, complex Administration cases including most recently Portsmouth FC and Heart Of Midlothian PLC
Excellent some good news stories there....
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Convenient, that.
"I've got shit loads of money, I want to put it into the club, but the government won't let me".
If we were a railroad connecting Tanzinia to Mozambique or a nuclesr power station then we'd be reet for investment. China ain't too keen on capital flight for non-strategic assets.
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Why isn't it serious enough to be on the yellow ticker on Sky Sports News and John Sheridan being appointed Carlisle manager is?
Oh how low have we sunk etc..
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Well it looks like Xia gambled our club’s whole future on promotion and lost. Cheers pal
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Well it looks like Xia gambled our club’s whole future on promotion and lost. Cheers pal
Indeed.
An utter fucking chancer.
Oh and a final 'well done' to Lerner for failing to spot it, too.
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Well it looks like Xia gambled our club’s whole future on promotion and lost. Cheers pal
Indeed.
An utter fucking chancer.
Oh and a final 'well done' to Lerner for failing to spot it, too.
Yes we look to be in a lot of trouble.
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John Percy
@JPercyTelegraph
Understand Trevor Birch - previously chief executive at #cfc and #lufc, among others - is now working closely with Aston Villa. Birch is renowned as an insolvency expert... #avfc
8:42 pm · 5 Jun 2018
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This could reach Portsmouth-like levels of wilderness exploring. Amazing that one goal - one goal - was all that stood between us and utter oblivion.
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So what is the story with Trevor Birch, didn't he work as a pre-administration bod at Leeds for a while or am I thinking of someone else?
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This could reach Portsmouth-like levels of wilderness exploring. Amazing that one goal - one goal - was all that stood between us and utter oblivion.
If this does prove to be the case it is truly staggering mismanagement.
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Tom Hanks is worth a few quid, he'll lend it to Tony.
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Why isn't it serious enough to be on the yellow ticker on Sky Sports News and John Sheridan being appointed Carlisle manager is?
It was when the story broke three hours ago.
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This could reach Portsmouth-like levels of wilderness exploring. Amazing that one goal - one goal - was all that stood between us and utter oblivion.
I wouldn't whip yourself into a frenzy. See what happens.
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I just googled Trevor Birch and was greeted with ‘people also searched Gerard Ratner, oh no it’s Gerald Krasner.
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This could reach Portsmouth-like levels of wilderness exploring. Amazing that one goal - one goal - was all that stood between us and utter oblivion.
So we have been worried about FFP which was brought in to stop another Portsmouth and apparently we are going to be another Portsmouth ..fucking hell
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Well it looks like Xia gambled our club’s whole future on promotion and lost. Cheers pal
Indeed.
An utter fucking chancer.
Oh and a final 'well done' to Lerner for failing to spot it, too.
I doubt Lerner could detect shit on a blanket.
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Where's Ad@m the accountant? He'll have it fixed in a jiffy
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Well it looks like Xia gambled our club’s whole future on promotion and lost. Cheers pal
Indeed.
An utter fucking chancer.
Oh and a final 'well done' to Lerner for failing to spot it, too.
Yes we look to be in a lot of trouble.
Well it looks like Xia gambled our club’s whole future on promotion and lost. Cheers pal
Indeed.
An utter fucking chancer.
Oh and a final 'well done' to Lerner for failing to spot it, too.
Yes we look to be in a lot of trouble.
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So what is the story with Trevor Birch, didn't he work as a pre-administration bod at Leeds for a while or am I thinking of someone else?
guy who handled chelsea's sale to ambramovich so he knows where the money is
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This feels like it did on the night of the 1st October last year to me...
Suddenly what was oblivion was on the doorstep, with no prior warning.
Sod it, I’m going to the pub. What will Be, will be.
Chris
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So what is the story with Trevor Birch, didn't he work as a pre-administration bod at Leeds for a while or am I thinking of someone else?
He was chief exec at Chelsea before Abramovich came in and then turned up at Leeds when they hit problems. Bit of a troubleshooter clubs get in when they hit difficulties.
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So what is the story with Trevor Birch, didn't he work as a pre-administration bod at Leeds for a while or am I thinking of someone else?
He was chief exec at Chelsea before Abramovich came in and then turned up at Leeds when they hit problems. Bit of a troubleshooter clubs get in when they hit difficulties.
Hopefully he can help turn us around as effectively as he did Leeds.
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I bet he’s turned up with one of them massive calculators. He’ll fix it.
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It would appear they’ve already spent the c£7m from the 17,000 season tickets they’ve already sold for next season, including my 500 quid. Marvellous.
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I bet he’s turned up with one of them massive calculators. He’ll fix it.
Jim is all we need right now.
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Pretty amazing, really.
Lose play off final.
Ten days later, owner makes statement about being a businessman and severe cuts and what not.
Two days after that, turns out we have not paid the HMRC their monthly PAYE payment and we've got an insolvency specialist involved.
I am not by any description engaging in wrist slashing, but fucking hell, how grim is that?
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We do seem to be mirroring Leeds a bit.
03/04- Relegated from premier league.
04/05- A nothing, mid table season.
05/06- Lose in play off final.
06/07- Firesale of players and relegated from championship.
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This could reach Portsmouth-like levels of wilderness exploring. Amazing that one goal - one goal - was all that stood between us and utter oblivion.
I wouldn't whip yourself into a frenzy. See what happens.
I do overreact at times, but the best thing to happen to me as a Villa fan in the last ten days is the lack of traffic jams leaving the Yellow car park at Wembley.
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This is not the way I wanted to tick off visiting the rest of the 92 league grounds.
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Pretty amazing, really.
Lose play off final.
Ten days later, owner makes statement about being a businessman and severe cuts and what not.
Two days after that, turns out we have not paid the HMRC their monthly PAYE payment and we've got an insolvency specialist involved.
I am not by any description engaging in wrist slashing, but fucking hell, how grim is that?
Pretty fucking grim and frankly whether the owner has no money or has money and can’t get it out of China it pretty much amounts to the same thing for Villa, we are in big trouble.
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So, Trevor Birch worked with Ken Bates.
Twice.
That is really, really reassuring.
Okay; I lied.
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Well it looks like Xia gambled our club’s whole future on promotion and lost. Cheers pal
Indeed.
An utter fucking chancer.
Oh and a final 'well done' to Lerner for failing to spot it, too.
I doubt Lerner could detect shit on a blanket.
I always said I would reserve final judgement on Lerner until I saw the kind of people he sold us on to... *sigh* From Doug, to Lerner to this. Is there anyone out there who can rescue us from this spiralling conveyor belt of shit? How on earth did the Doc get past the EFL fit and proper test?
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Makes you wonder. If we're not paying off the HMRC who you really don't want to piss off, how many more creditors are there?
-
Pretty amazing, really.
Lose play off final.
Ten days later, owner makes statement about being a businessman and severe cuts and what not.
Two days after that, turns out we have not paid the HMRC their monthly PAYE payment and we've got an insolvency specialist involved.
I am not by any description engaging in wrist slashing, but fucking hell, how grim is that?
There was the Wolves story from the bleak mid 80s when the milkman would only deliver to Molineux if he got cash in hand. It's not that bad yet
-
Makes you wonder. If we're not paying off the HMRC who you really don't want to piss off, how many more creditors are there?
If Mays wage bill hadn’t been paid I’d imagine we would have heard of it by now.
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somebody said wyness has been suspended due to remarks made on social media about a referee with reference to being disabled
probably bs
He had a 2 week FA suspension yonks ago over that. This is a suspension by the club.
ok cheers I thought for a minute it was a way for Xia to get rid
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Makes you wonder. If we're not paying off the HMRC who you really don't want to piss off, how many more creditors are there?
If Mays wage bill hadn’t been paid I’d imagine we would have heard of it by now.
well i'm hoping it isn't that bad. I mean just companies that bill us for services. If your struggling for cash you pay the nasty bastards first like HMRC and delay all the others.
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Impact of Chinese capital controls on Atletico (who had a transfer embargo):
Reuters) - Dalian Wanda Group has sold a 17 percent stake in Atletico Madrid, the Spanish football club said on Wednesday, the latest step in the Chinese conglomerate's strategy to reduce debt.
The sale to Israeli billionaire Idan Ofer for an undisclosed sum adds to deals worth about $16 billion that Wanda has announced since last year.
Wanda bought a 20 percent stake in Atletico in 2015 for 45 million euros (£40 million), becoming the first mainland Chinese company to invest in a top European club as part of China's push into football.
Wanda, along with other major conglomerates including HNA Group and Fosun International , has faced increased scrutiny of its finances and debts over the past year as Beijing clamps down on what it terms irrational overseas deals.
"The decision to disinvest is part of the Chinese group's global strategy," Atletico said in a statement on its website.
A spokesperson for Wanda Group declined to comment when contacted by Reuters.
China abruptly shifted over a year ago from a policy of providing its domestic conglomerates with cheap cash to help them to become global champions, towards tightening capital controls and bank credit.
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Flatpack administration anyone? A CVA?
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Flatpack administration anyone? A CVA?
Pre pack means 12 point deduction. As would a CVA I guess.
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This is conjecture, the veracity of which we'll probably never know, but what are the chances we'd have been sold for a tidy profit if we'd won the Playoff Final? I'd say Xia has been hoping he could sell up as soon as China imposed the capital controls and being back in PL would have allowed him to do that for a sizeable gain. Now we're in the shit and he'll struggle to find anyone who'll touch us.
-
So, Trevor Birch worked with Ken Bates.
Twice.
That is really, really reassuring.
Okay; I lied.
He almost joined us back in 2004 as Mark Ansell's replacement.
-
This is conjecture, the veracity of which we'll probably never know, but what are the chances we'd have been sold for a tidy profit if we'd won the Playoff Final? I'd say Xia has been hoping he could sell up as soon as China imposed the capital controls and being back in PL would have allowed him to do that for a sizeable gain. Now we're in the shit and he'll struggle to find anyone who'll touch us.
In light of what's happening now, I'd say that was a fair outside bet.
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It is said Wyness, in his duty to find financial alternatives, was trying to raise funds through minor investors but Xia reacted badly to advice and temporarily dismissed his top executive.
In an alternative version of events it has been claimed Wyness attempting to bring together a consortium to buy the club without Xia’s prior knowledge. The Chinese businessman then found out and acted.
daily fail
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This is conjecture, the veracity of which we'll probably never know, but what are the chances we'd have been sold for a tidy profit if we'd won the Playoff Final? I'd say Xia has been hoping he could sell up as soon as China imposed the capital controls and being back in PL would have allowed him to do that for a sizeable gain. Now we're in the shit and he'll struggle to find anyone who'll touch us.
In light of what's happening now, I'd say that was a fair outside bet.
Are China not pumping millions into football, at every level, I know for a fact they are at school level?
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Collymore on Twitter suggesting that Wyness was touting the club to buyers behind Xia's back.
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Collymore on Twitter suggesting that Wyness was touting the club to buyers behind Xia's back.
See i don't believe that. Why would any responsible CE do that?
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Collymore on Twitter suggesting that Wyness was touting the club to buyers behind Xia's back.
If that was the case you could say that Wyness was acting in the best interests of the club, if Xia hadn't the money to pay the bills?
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Collymore intimating that Wynnes was doing it behind his back with a “keep me on” as part of any deal.
He said:
My understanding.
1. Financial situation is grave.
2. Owner feels betrayed by more than one person at club.
3. Suggestion that behind TX back touting of club has happened by individuals.
4. Individuals looking after themselves( "buy club, keep me on")
Also this just posted.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-5809685/Aston-Villa-turmoil-failure-pay-tax-bill-5m.html
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Collymore on Twitter suggesting that Wyness was touting the club to buyers behind Xia's back.
See i don't believe that. Why would any responsible CE do that?
The key word is "Responsible".
If Wyness believed that the Doc was unable or unwilling to ship cash to the Club, maybe he thought it was the only way out of a short-term cash crisis.
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Collymore on Twitter suggesting that Wyness was touting the club to buyers behind Xia's back.
See i don't believe that. Why would any responsible CE do that?
Responsible being the word.
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Collymore on Twitter suggesting that Wyness was touting the club to buyers behind Xia's back.
See i don't believe that. Why would any responsible CE do that?
The key word is "Responsible".
If Wyness believed that the Doc was unable or unwilling to ship cash to the Club, maybe he thought it was the only way out of a short-term cash crisis.
Doesn't matter. It's not in his remit. The CE doesn't just go off on his own touting behind a company's owner or shareholders. It if goes tits-up then its not down to him. Smell like typical SVC bullshit
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Collymore on Twitter suggesting that Wyness was touting the club to buyers behind Xia's back.
See i don't believe that. Why would any responsible CE do that?
The key word is "Responsible".
If Wyness believed that the Doc was unable or unwilling to ship cash to the Club, maybe he thought it was the only way out of a short-term cash crisis.
Doesn't matter. It's not in his remit. The CE doesn't just go off on his own touting behind a company's owner or shareholders. It if goes tits-up then its not down to him. Smell like typical SVC bullshit
Well, it may or may not be SVC BS but Wyness is well connected in football circles (apparently) and might well have been 'fishing' for support - if only to save being embarrassed by a financial crisis on his watch.
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Yeah I agree
More likely that they just disagreed on the way fwd to try and improve our cashflow
Its very hard to tell where Tony is on the charlatan scale at the moment. It could be that ffp and Chinese capital controls genuinely are constraining him from what he wants to do.
But the ffp risk was eminently spottable from.the outset
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Collymore on Twitter suggesting that Wyness was touting the club to buyers behind Xia's back.
See i don't believe that. Why would any responsible CE do that?
The key word is "Responsible".
If Wyness believed that the Doc was unable or unwilling to ship cash to the Club, maybe he thought it was the only way out of a short-term cash crisis.
Doesn't matter. It's not in his remit. The CE doesn't just go off on his own touting behind a company's owner or shareholders. It if goes tits-up then its not down to him. Smell like typical SVC bullshit
Same reported by Dail Mail now
As posted earlier all chinese investers are struggling now ( seems if Wolves hadn't gone up they would have same issue ) but Wyness as CE shouldn't go behind Xia back but Xia cant get cash into club and is living in fantasy world then perhaps Wyness did the only thing he could to keep club going ..
My concern is due to pride Xia is going to try and keep it going when its clear he has failed and in no position to change things around
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Collymore on Twitter suggesting that Wyness was touting the club to buyers behind Xia's back.
See i don't believe that. Why would any responsible CE do that?
The key word is "Responsible".
If Wyness believed that the Doc was unable or unwilling to ship cash to the Club, maybe he thought it was the only way out of a short-term cash crisis.
Doesn't matter. It's not in his remit. The CE doesn't just go off on his own touting behind a company's owner or shareholders. It if goes tits-up then its not down to him. Smell like typical SVC bullshit
Well, it may or may not be SVC BS but Wyness is well connected in football circles (apparently) and might well have been 'fishing' for support - if only to save being embarrassed by a financial crisis on his watch.
maybe but if you were an owner of a company, would you employ a CE who had done that? Great way to make yourself unemployable,
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Would a new buyer solve the FFP problem?
if so, arguably Wyness was doing his best for the club rather than the custodian/owner.
-
Would a new buyer solve the FFP problem?
No.
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Wow. Looling like points deduction. With a fire sale and no funds we could be looking at league 1.
Fucking circus. Never trusted Xia
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Wolves could still have the same issue, just delayed by a season or two.
What I'm seeing on Twitter is Villa fans saying, 'See, it's just unpaid because Xia can't move money out of China, so he's going to cover the tax bill with a loan,' like that's all fine and dandy. I would say an owner on which this football club depends not to go bust being unable to use any wealth he is meant to have is very far from being fine and dandy.
-
Flatpack administration anyone? A CVA?
Does a ‘Flatpack Administration’ mean Villa will be bought by IKEA?
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Wyness will quickly be forgotten. He's had a ride on the good ship Aston Villa and is gone.
What happens now is worrying, if it's just a tax bill of £5million - what's stopping Xia flogging the first team, training ground and fucking off?
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Unreal, you couldn't make this up, it would be slanderous, my concern is, could any of this be deemed as breaking financial rules within the FA, inappropriate behavior or conduct, as such could that mean a points penalty deduction going into next season, we could be fighting not just for financial survival, if we get as far as next season, point deduction could mean Championship survival, somebody buy us out....please.
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Wow. Looling like points deduction. With a fire sale and no funds we could be looking at league 1.
Fucking circus. Never trusted Xia
Dr Xia.
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Also hasn't Wyness been suspended rather than sacked?
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Flatpack administration anyone? A CVA?
Does a ‘Flatpack Administration’ mean Villa will be bought by IKEA?
Does he earn enough playing for Feyenoord to buy us?
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At least the fit and proper owners test by the football league has saved us from the abyss this time.
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Wow. Looling like points deduction. With a fire sale and no funds we could be looking at league 1.
Fucking circus. Never trusted Xia
Isn’t it a bit early for all this ?
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Also hasn't Wyness been suspended rather than sacked?
yeah you think if he was hosting meetings with potential buyers behind Tony's back he'd have gone. My guess is he's pointed out a few financial home truths and it hasn't gone down well. Still you'd think if he was that unhappy he'd resign to protect himself.
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Wow. Looling like points deduction. With a fire sale and no funds we could be looking at league 1.
Fucking circus. Never trusted Xia
Isn’t it a bit early for all this ?
Probably, Based upon the last two weeks this news is at least a fortnight away
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It would be extraordinary for a suspended Chief Executive to ever return to the same company again. He'll resign 'freely' in the coming days or weeks I reckon.
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I think he’ll be fed to sharks in Xias secret underground Volcanic island.
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Whenever I've heard Wyness on WM, I thought he sounded full of good sense and ideas. This reminds me of when Mervyn King and Bernstein left when Randy went completely cuckoo.
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Wow. Looling like points deduction. With a fire sale and no funds we could be looking at league 1.
Fucking circus. Never trusted Xia
Isn’t it a bit early for all this ?
Well that escalated quickly.
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So much for the stiff upper lips.
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Wolves could still have the same issue, just delayed by a season or two.
What I'm seeing on Twitter is Villa fans saying, 'See, it's just unpaid because Xia can't move money out of China, so he's going to cover the tax bill with a loan,' like that's all fine and dandy. I would say an owner on which this football club depends not to go bust being unable to use any wealth he is meant to have is very far from being fine and dandy.
In the meantime they are considering a £35m bid for a right back from Inter Milan. Oh what could have been!
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Whenever I've heard Wyness on WM, I thought he sounded full of good sense and ideas. This reminds me of when Mervyn King and Bernstein left when Randy went completely cuckoo.
They resigned. I still have copies of their letters. Wyness has been suspended.
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If Dr X doesn't have the money or is unable to get the money out of China then either way we are in the shit. A fire sale is coming by the start of next month.
Where's the money from 17,000 season ticket sales?
If Wyness has been touting the club, maybe he's been touting the players too.
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I think he’ll be fed to sharks in Xias secret underground Volcanic island.
With frickin laser beams on their heads.
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So much for the stiff upper lips.
Aye. We are quick to move to seppuku at faintest hint of a crisis. Things might turn out to be terrible, but let it get there first.
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there won't be much of a fire sale we've only got about two saleable assets that would bring in big money
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Whenever I've heard Wyness on WM, I thought he sounded full of good sense and ideas. This reminds me of when Mervyn King and Bernstein left when Randy went completely cuckoo.
They resigned. I still have copies of their letters. Wyness has been suspended.
I know, but it all feels like when Axl Rose sacked every member of Guns 'n' Roses - ironically, when making "Chinese Democracy".
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well there's no doubt, if anyone is interested in any of our players they'll be on the phone first thing tomorrow after this.
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It's all rumours tonight, but another thing I read earlier suggested we used future earnings on the sale of Amavi and Sanchez to improve immediate cashflow problems a couple of months back.
In a terrible addition, it's also been explained to me that Fosun, who own Wolves, are not supposed to have the same issues moving money into Europe as they already have European companies to get their assets out of China.
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well there's no doubt, if anyone is interested in any of our players they'll be on the phone first thing tomorrow after this.
Don’t panic. Our phones were cut off today.
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So much for the stiff upper lips.
Aye. We are quick to move to seppuku at faintest hint of a crisis. Things might turn out to be terrible, but let it get there first.
I think people are within their rights to start to have a bit of a panic to be fair
people like yourself who have backed this administration and its manager to the death every day on here for the last 18 months also have every right to continue to do so
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well there's no doubt, if anyone is interested in any of our players they'll be on the phone first thing tomorrow after this.
Don’t panic. Our phones were cut off today.
heheheh
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So much for the stiff upper lips.
Aye. We are quick to move to seppuku at faintest hint of a crisis. Things might turn out to be terrible, but let it get there first.
I think people are within their rights to start to have a bit of a panic to be fair
people like yourself who have backed this administration and its manager to the death every day on here for the last 18 months also have every right to continue to do so
I haven't backed anything to death. I criticise when appropriate and try and stay positive about my hobby.
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well there's no doubt, if anyone is interested in any of our players they'll be on the phone first thing tomorrow after this.
Don’t panic. Our phones were cut off today.
heheheh
Apologise for gallows humour, it’s what’s keeping me going.
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well there's no doubt, if anyone is interested in any of our players they'll be on the phone first thing tomorrow after this.
Don’t panic. Our phones were cut off today.
heheheh
There has been some excellent gallows humour, which is promising given the likelihood of our immediate future.
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Why isn't it serious enough to be on the yellow ticker on Sky Sports News and John Sheridan being appointed Carlisle manager is?
Oh how low have we sunk etc..
That wasn't my point at all, what I meant was there's panic amongst Villa fans but it isn't deemed serious enough to be on the yellow ticker, never mind.
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It's all rumours tonight, but another thing I read earlier suggested we used future earnings on the sale of Amavi and Sanchez to improve immediate cashflow problems a couple of months back.
In a terrible addition, it's also been explained to me that Fosun, who own Wolves, are not supposed to have the same issues moving money into Europe as they already have European companies to get their assets out of China.
Doesn't Xia have business interests in the States?
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I must admit I had to have a wry smile at the news that the fees from Amarvi and Sanchez weren’t actually going to rescue us and avoid FFP sanctions.
Rather reminded me of Baldricks nest egg in Backadder.
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well there's no doubt, if anyone is interested in any of our players they'll be on the phone first thing tomorrow after this.
Don’t panic. Our phones were cut off today.
heheheh
Apologise for gallows humour, it’s what’s keeping me going.
No problem. same here really after the last 10 years
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If we go through CVA or insolvency whatever does it invalidate our contracts with fat Ross and micah?
Every cloud as they say?
-
If it does then surely it invalidates Jacks, Chester and Kodjas as well?
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What about if we consolidate all our debts into one easy monthly payment?
Sorry.
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Could wyness be the good guy in all of this?
He realised Xia is a charlatan, and went out looking for people to invest in or buy the club.
Xia finds out and suspends him before finally sacking him?
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Meanwhile, there remains the people in the background trying to force Xia's arm, knowing that the club are screwed financially ans are offering him a deal. Which, so far, he has rebuffed.
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If it does then surely it invalidates Jacks, Chester and Kodjas as well?
Any pre pack administration would have to include a rollover of existing players contracts as they are vital assets to any sale.
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Wyness deserved to go anyway after presiding over our efforts to buy our way to promotion over the last 2 seasons
There was always an element of fantasy about "Dr" Tony. A front for the Chinese govt buying foreign assets it seems, they turn off the tap and we sink into the abyss.
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If Dr X doesn't have the money or is unable to get the money out of China then either way we are in the shit.
Is it possible that there is a third option that he does have the money, can get it out of China, but has now seen a return to the Premier League is not going to be easy as first thought and isn’t willing to invest any more money? Like the two scenarios you have mentioned, this ends with us being up the creek without a paddle as well.
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Anyway i think its unlikely we'll go into administration at the moment. It's far easier for HMRC to get their money by waiting for sales. Even in a firesale we'd easily get 5m and they know that.
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Fancy another yank?
Peter B Freund linked with £75m takeover.
https://mobile.twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/1004116034029277186/photo/1
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A few comments re Chinese money and corporate debt following points by Rudy and pauliewalnuts.
If you already have overseas companies with funding outside China then you can move the funds relatively easily.
The Chinese government are trying to reduce capital flows unless they are for important strategic assets ( I think Paulie made this point). To our collective surprise, keeping Villa afloat would probably not rank highly here
China has a big issue with corporate debt and has been taking measures to improve it. Xia’s ability to weave his way through this ( and I have no idea of the financial strength of his companies) would depend on the nature of his own business and the strength of his connections. These connections would need to be very strong and very current as Xi Jinping has been ensuring compliance with his wishes far beyond any Chinese leader in the past 40 years.
All of the above is generic information , and any individual or company will see things differently. We could all be fine, but we haven’t really got a clue about the true position of Recon and Xia’s intentions to fund us until he makes a statement. I’m not exactly shitting giggle turds though.
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The f*ck is that?
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Football freund.
If somebody could pop an Inbetweeners picture in that would be grand.
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(https://image.ibb.co/jx8RJT/maxresdefault.jpg)
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Waey! Well in.
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I'm all for it as long as Tony doesn't want to sell to him. Everytime we sell to a preferred buyer we get a bigger fuckwitt than the last one. We must be one owner off getting Trump at the moment.
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Fancy another yank?
Peter B Freund linked with £75m takeover.
https://mobile.twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/1004116034029277186/photo/1
He already follows Aston Villa and JT on his Instagram 😳
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I wonder why he follows Jimmy Tarbuck?
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Panic over, I’ve found the remedy to all our ills...
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Stan on the consortium
Consortium.
Were at NDA stage with another club, tipped off that XXFC were for sale( including intimate financial details), dropped interest in other club and "parties" made sure it was circulated around the press.
Shithousery on the grandest of scales.
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The very last thing we want here is a consortium.
They have no money individually so have to band together and empty their pockets out to raise the pennies.
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Love logging in to find we are on the verge of being fucked again
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How on earth have we got in to such a mess? Football finances are the easiest thing in the world to predict and account for. Unlike most industries, you pretty well know what your income for the year is going to be, and what your outgoings will be. Cashflows for a football club are extremely predictable, so someone, somewhere hasn't been doing their job properly, either in accounting for things, in which case the finger of blame points at the CEO and FD, or the owner, if he hasn't been providing the promised working capital.
We know that we're going to get £x for parachute payments, £y TV money, £z season ticket cash, and that we'll have to pay a group of players their contractual amount for the season. If we've had a bit of a gamble on getting promoted and paying high wages to the likes of Terry and Snodgrass, then that's fine, but obviously the owner has to agree to that, and bankroll it, within the confines of FFP.
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The very last thing we want here is a consortium.
They have no money individually so have to band together and empty their pockets out to raise the pennies.
The last 2 owners have been rich and been a shambles , maybe some constraint in spending stupidly would actually help us
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How on earth have we got in to such a mess? Football finances are the easiest thing in the world to predict and account for. Unlike most industries, you pretty well know what your income for the year is going to be, and what your outgoings will be. Cashflows for a football club are extremely predictable, so someone, somewhere hasn't been doing their job properly, either in accounting for things, in which case the finger of blame points at the CEO and FD, or the owner, if he hasn't been providing the promised working capital.
We know that we're going to get £x for parachute payments, £y TV money, £z season ticket cash, and that we'll have to pay a group of players their contractual amount for the season. If we've had a bit of a gamble on getting promoted and paying high wages to the likes of Terry and Snodgrass, then that's fine, but obviously the owner has to agree to that, and bankroll it, within the confines of FFP.
Hard to know what to believe but starting to look to me that we're dependent on working capital from Dr Tony and hes severely constrained in providing that from China
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How on earth have we got in to such a mess? Football finances are the easiest thing in the world to predict and account for. Unlike most industries, you pretty well know what your income for the year is going to be, and what your outgoings will be. Cashflows for a football club are extremely predictable, so someone, somewhere hasn't been doing their job properly, either in accounting for things, in which case the finger of blame points at the CEO and FD, or the owner, if he hasn't been providing the promised working capital.
We know that we're going to get £x for parachute payments, £y TV money, £z season ticket cash, and that we'll have to pay a group of players their contractual amount for the season. If we've had a bit of a gamble on getting promoted and paying high wages to the likes of Terry and Snodgrass, then that's fine, but obviously the owner has to agree to that, and bankroll it, within the confines of FFP.
Inexperience i guess. We were going up. Guaranteed. We had Mr promotion in charge. we had millions more money and better players than our rivals. Same happened with MON and Lerner. How could we NOT get into the CL? They never learn...
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The very last thing we want here is a consortium.
They have no money individually so have to band together and empty their pockets out to raise the pennies.
The last 2 owners have been rich and been a shambles , maybe some constraint in spending stupidly would actually help us
Maybe - Personally, I'd prefer someone with a bit of money behind them.
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Christ, what a way to start a day.
I've long since stopped trying to work out what's going on at football clubs financially. None of them ever appear to turn a profit and ,thanks to FFP, I've no idea why anyone would want to invest in a club outside the established CL teams anymore. We used to be a graveyard for managerial careers, now we've become a graveyard for wealthy owners too.
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The very last thing we want here is a consortium.
They have no money individually so have to band together and empty their pockets out to raise the pennies.
The last 2 owners have been rich and been a shambles , maybe some constraint in spending stupidly would actually help us
Maybe - Personally, I'd prefer someone with a bit of money behind them.
I think one of the dangers with potential buyers whilst in the Championship is that they arrive thinking the promised land of the Premier League is just around the corner. Some want that instant fix and when they realise it's a bit more difficult then they originally thought, the interest seems to fade leaving the club in all sorts of trouble. It's happened with Leeds, Forest and countless others.
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Love logging in to find we are on the verge of being fucked again
Been following the club since childhood in the mid 80's and I can't recall a time when rumours of this kind were being talked of.
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The very last thing we want here is a consortium.
They have no money individually so have to band together and empty their pockets out to raise the pennies.
The last 2 owners have been rich and been a shambles , maybe some constraint in spending stupidly would actually help us
Maybe - Personally, I'd prefer someone with a bit of money behind them.
I think one of the dangers with potential buyers whilst in the Championship is that they arrive thinking the promised land of the Premier League is just around the corner. Some want that instant fix and when they realise it's a bit more difficult then they originally thought, the interest seems to fade leaving the club in all sorts of trouble. It's happened with Leeds, Forest and countless others.
That would apply to consortiums as well though. It's looking possible that Xia has had the stuffing knocked out of him so if his heart isn't in it, the sooner he goes, the better. In that scenario, we would need a buyer in and the place settled asap. If we can keep the bulk of the squad together next season, we've a good chance at top 6 again. The longer there is uncertainty, the less likely we are to hold on to our better players.
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The very last thing we want here is a consortium.
They have no money individually so have to band together and empty their pockets out to raise the pennies.
The last 2 owners have been rich and been a shambles , maybe some constraint in spending stupidly would actually help us
Maybe - Personally, I'd prefer someone with a bit of money behind them.
I think one of the dangers with potential buyers whilst in the Championship is that they arrive thinking the promised land of the Premier League is just around the corner. Some want that instant fix and when they realise it's a bit more difficult then they originally thought, the interest seems to fade leaving the club in all sorts of trouble. It's happened with Leeds, Forest and countless others.
That would apply to consortiums as well though. It's looking possible that Xia has had the stuffing knocked out of him so if his heart isn't in it, the sooner he goes, the better. In that scenario, we would need a buyer in and the place settled asap. If we can keep the bulk of the squad together next season, we've a good chance at top 6 again. The longer there is uncertainty, the less likely we are to hold on to our better players.
It would apply to any potential buyer or buyers. What you really need in the Championship is someone who wants to build a solid structure and not someone who just wants to try and jump aboard the Premier League gravy train as quickly as possible. I guess the next couple of weeks will determine if Xia is still committed or not.
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The very last thing we want here is a consortium.
They have no money individually so have to band together and empty their pockets out to raise the pennies.
The last 2 owners have been rich and been a shambles , maybe some constraint in spending stupidly would actually help us
Maybe - Personally, I'd prefer someone with a bit of money behind them.
I think one of the dangers with potential buyers whilst in the Championship is that they arrive thinking the promised land of the Premier League is just around the corner. Some want that instant fix and when they realise it's a bit more difficult then they originally thought, the interest seems to fade leaving the club in all sorts of trouble. It's happened with Leeds, Forest and countless others.
What's Nicola Cortese up to these days.
Sorted Southampton out from top to bottom when they were in right two and eight. They had far less natural advantages than we have n'all.
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Wyness. Glad he's left and I was very suspicious of him. I think he seemed ill suited to Tony's good intentions.
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It would be extraordinary for a suspended Chief Executive to ever return to the same company again. He'll resign 'freely' in the coming days or weeks I reckon.
Why wasn't he just fired?
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It would be extraordinary for a suspended Chief Executive to ever return to the same company again. He'll resign 'freely' in the coming days or weeks I reckon.
Why wasn't he just fired?
Process.
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And again.
Again
Yeah.
Fat bastard.
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If 40k fans put in £500-£750 each, we could own 51% of the club (very real possibility)
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If 40k fans put in £500-£750 each, we could own 51% of the club (very real possibility)
Um. I've just spent £500 on a season ticket.
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I think they have that situation in clubs in Germany and fans have a say on the board. Correct me if I'm wrong. How does Portsmouth work here, as it's a different business environment?
I think the time has come for constructive action on our (the fans') part.
We can't go on like this every few years!
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What’s interesting for me about a lot of the coverage is it’s not very anti Xia. Not that I think he has done anything hugely wrong or irresponsible but I’d expect there to have been some pro Wyness / anti Xia press by now.
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I think they have that situation in clubs in Germany and fans have a say on the board. Correct me if I'm wrong. How does Portsmouth work here, as it's a different business environment?
I think the time has come for constructive action on our (the fans') part.
We can't go on like this every few years!
A fans consortium is a nice idea
But spending a few minutes reading fans views on the internet puts me off. Can you imagine the infighting!
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There does seem to be a subtle spin in the press articles that Wyness is trying to sort things and Xia is being unreasonable. Suggests which side of the dispute the briefings may be coming from.
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I think they have that situation in clubs in Germany and fans have a say on the board. Correct me if I'm wrong. How does Portsmouth work here, as it's a different business environment?
I think the time has come for constructive action on our (the fans') part.
We can't go on like this every few years!
A fans consortium is a nice idea
But spending a few minutes reading fans views on the internet puts me off. Can you imagine the infighting!
True! ;)
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There clearly was no (or at least no realistic) Plan B for if we failed to get promotion.
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I think they have that situation in clubs in Germany and fans have a say on the board. Correct me if I'm wrong. How does Portsmouth work here, as it's a different business environment?
I think the time has come for constructive action on our (the fans') part.
We can't go on like this every few years!
A fans consortium is a nice idea
But spending a few minutes reading fans views on the internet puts me off. Can you imagine the infighting!
In all seriousness, is this something anyone would be genuinely keen on exploring? 51% ownership target. Given the current financial crisis i would forecast we would need £20m approx to push this through........
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There does seem to be a subtle spin in the press articles that Wyness is trying to sort things and Xia is being unreasonable. Suggests which side of the dispute the briefings may be coming from.
There is more information that hasn't been released, but that's my understanding of it currently.
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There does seem to be a subtle spin in the press articles that Wyness is trying to sort things and Xia is being unreasonable. Suggests which side of the dispute the briefings may be coming from.
Not like the press to be subtle about anything.
If the HMRC are owed money, it's obvious from other clubs in trouble in the past over non-payment of tax, the Revenue have no problem with taking a club to court pretty promptly.
Wyness has no doubt milked the club and will move on to another one as did Risdale after the Leeds fiasco.
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We don’t really know what has happened do we?
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Sky News are reporting that the club is indeed for sale this morning - at the right price.
Whatever way you look at it, gambling everything on promotion was a very foolish move. It was very clear as the season went by that we were never going to be one of the top 2 teams and in the playoff final, with Fulham, that the 3rd promotion spot was going to be a hard fought one at that.
Whereas i’m Sure that there is a deeper story behind this all, and it falls into the arms of speculation by us at the moment, I do wonder if the reality was that Wyness sanctioned the gig ho approach of gambling everything on slim odds? And as a result Tony has had to wield the axe on him as it failed?
Either way... what a time to be a Villa fan. We go from the optimism of beating Middlesbrough in a Play Off semi final to the seemingly inevitable conclusion that the club is really in dire Financial Times and might need to either sold or sent into administration, in the space of around 2 weeks.
My Dad said a few weeks ago that he fancied following a non-league football team for the next few seasons... please not like this!!
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I',m reserving judgement on the Wyness / Xia blame game until things are a bit clearer
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I think they have that situation in clubs in Germany and fans have a say on the board. Correct me if I'm wrong. How does Portsmouth work here, as it's a different business environment?
I think the time has come for constructive action on our (the fans') part.
We can't go on like this every few years!
A fans consortium is a nice idea
But spending a few minutes reading fans views on the internet puts me off. Can you imagine the infighting!
In all seriousness, is this something anyone would be genuinely keen on exploring? 51% ownership target. Given the current financial crisis i would forecast we would need £20m approx to push this through........
In all seriousness it's not. The only way we'd do this is if we found ourselves in the 4th or 5th tier., And thankfully that isn't going to happen. How would we raise funds for future transfers, ground expansion or player sales etc, who runs the club, who would want to own the other 49%. We are not Barcelona, it's just not going to ever happen.
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I think they have that situation in clubs in Germany and fans have a say on the board. Correct me if I'm wrong. How does Portsmouth work here, as it's a different business environment?
I think the time has come for constructive action on our (the fans') part.
We can't go on like this every few years!
A fans consortium is a nice idea
But spending a few minutes reading fans views on the internet puts me off. Can you imagine the infighting!
In all seriousness, is this something anyone would be genuinely keen on exploring? 51% ownership target. Given the current financial crisis i would forecast we would need £20m approx to push this through........
In all seriousness it's not. The only way we'd do this is if we found ourselves in the 4th or 5th tier., And thankfully that isn't going to happen. How would we raise funds for future transfers, ground expansion or player sales etc, who runs the club, who would want to own the other 49%. We are not Barcelona, it's just not going to ever happen.
Depends who makes up the 51%. Main part now of how it could work is FFP. A sugar daddy means sod all now as they cannot invest beyond the limits anyway. If we are rock bottom, we need to build a sustainable profitable club. On those terms, fan ownership in part could work
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Been thinking about this a bit. These capital controls in China haven't just happened in the last week, so when the auditors were considering the Going Concern issue for the last set of accounts, they would have had to have satisfied themselves that Xia had the ability to support the club. That means having the cash and also the ability to ACCESS that cash. It's looking like another Carillion situation, whereby the audit report isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
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It’s Deloittes isn’t it?
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Flatpack administration anyone? A CVA?
Does a ‘Flatpack Administration’ mean Villa will be bought by IKEA?
More likely to be MFI knowing us .......oh
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Flatpack administration anyone? A CVA?
Does a ‘Flatpack Administration’ mean Villa will be bought by IKEA?
More likely to be MFI knowing us .......oh
More Fucking Imbeciles.
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How on earth have we got in to such a mess? Football finances are the easiest thing in the world to predict and account for. Unlike most industries, you pretty well know what your income for the year is going to be, and what your outgoings will be. Cashflows for a football club are extremely predictable, so someone, somewhere hasn't been doing their job properly, either in accounting for things, in which case the finger of blame points at the CEO and FD, or the owner, if he hasn't been providing the promised working capital.
We know that we're going to get £x for parachute payments, £y TV money, £z season ticket cash, and that we'll have to pay a group of players their contractual amount for the season. If we've had a bit of a gamble on getting promoted and paying high wages to the likes of Terry and Snodgrass, then that's fine, but obviously the owner has to agree to that, and bankroll it, within the confines of FFP.
How to make a million in football...........start with ten million and....
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Been thinking about this a bit. These capital controls in China haven't just happened in the last week, so when the auditors were considering the Going Concern issue for the last set of accounts, they would have had to have satisfied themselves that Xia had the ability to support the club. That means having the cash and also the ability to ACCESS that cash. It's looking like another Carillion situation, whereby the audit report isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
Exactly where my head has been since yesterday.
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Out all day yesterday and only just got round to looking at the posts, which make depressing reading.
It's probably the worst financial situation the club's been in since December 68, just before Doug joined the club.
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Been thinking about this a bit. These capital controls in China haven't just happened in the last week, so when the auditors were considering the Going Concern issue for the last set of accounts, they would have had to have satisfied themselves that Xia had the ability to support the club. That means having the cash and also the ability to ACCESS that cash. It's looking like another Carillion situation, whereby the audit report isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
Exactly where my head has been since yesterday.
I'm sure it's been reported somewhere that there has been no injection from the owner for a few months. So in reality we don't really know what was done, when it was done and in all honesty who knows about China?
But, you're right about the audit report, they are all shite.
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‘We were asked to advise Aston Villa’
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We are always asking for stability at our club.
No one can deny that we have had stability in the ’cuntish people running our club’ department for many years now.
Oh joy.
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Out all day yesterday and only just got round to looking at the posts, which make depressing reading.
It's probably the worst financial situation the club's been in since December 68, just before Doug joined the club.
He's still knocking around...
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Out all day yesterday and only just got round to looking at the posts, which make depressing reading.
It's probably the worst financial situation the club's been in since December 68, just before Doug joined the club.
He's still knocking around...
I almost didn't recognise him at the final. He didn't look well, even for a guy at his age.
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Flatpack administration anyone? A CVA?
Does a ‘Flatpack Administration’ mean Villa will be bought by IKEA?
More likely to be MFI knowing us .......oh
More Fucking Imbeciles.
Between incompetent owners, chief executives, managers, coaches and players, we have managed to amass quite a rogue's gallery over the past few years.
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We talked a number of times last season, on one of the many long away trips, about footy grounds we hadn't visited in Div 1 and 2. With the way things are looking, we might now get the chance. Silver Lining and all that!
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it's just a pity those lads at TBAR aren't still up and running
they would have predicted all this and given us the heads up especially that admin fella he'd have known what was going on and no mistake
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it's just a pity those lads at TBAR aren't still up and running
they would have predicted all this and given us the heads up especially that admin fella he'd have known what was going on and no mistake
They're still going, I've just checked. No sign of Admin though. Well, there is, but not the god like fella who knew it all.
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I got an update email from them this morning. They didn't have my permission to do so, think I'll grass them up to the GDPR police.
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I got an update email from them this morning. They didn't have my permission to do so, think I'll grass them up to the GDPR police.
This is taking the worst possible tangent imaginable, but my understanding is that GDPR is about transparency rather than consent!
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Some of their folks have been on here, so I'm guessing not much happening over there.
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it's just a pity those lads at TBAR aren't still up and running
they would have predicted all this and given us the heads up especially that admin fella he'd have known what was going on and no mistake
They're still going, I've just checked. No sign of Admin though. Well, there is, but not the god like fella who knew it all.
Probably because Troy spends most of his time on here under new aliases.
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Been thinking about this a bit. These capital controls in China haven't just happened in the last week, so when the auditors were considering the Going Concern issue for the last set of accounts, they would have had to have satisfied themselves that Xia had the ability to support the club. That means having the cash and also the ability to ACCESS that cash. It's looking like another Carillion situation, whereby the audit report isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
Risso, that could possibly have fallen down on the Chinese documents / certificates / guarantees.
I would presume that Deloittes have done their job correctly but they may have received assurances from Chinese institutions that money and access to money were in place. I wouldn't exactly faint with surprise if those guarantees were slightly less than concrete, or if circumstances have changed since they were made. As an aside, we have a small office in Shanghai with 3 staff and since the last Party congress when Xi became all powerful there is a noticeable increase in enforcement of previously ignored regulations. Things that used to get by thanks to contacts and relationships are now being blocked.
There are many stories of Chinese companies floating on the Hong Kong stock exchange (or international companies including a valuation of their Chinese activities for their flotation) only to find later that some of the checks and balances were less than 100% genuine.
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Seeing talk that we are desperately tryng to sell the car park on Marsh Lane.
Good job we avoided those asset strippers who were trying to buy as last time.
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We talked a number of times last season, on one of the many long away trips, about footy grounds we hadn't visited in Div 1 and 2. With the way things are looking, we might now get the chance. Silver Lining and all that!
Unfortunately given my age and era have seen the Villa at most grounds so even that aspect does not even raise a smile.
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Been thinking about this a bit. These capital controls in China haven't just happened in the last week, so when the auditors were considering the Going Concern issue for the last set of accounts, they would have had to have satisfied themselves that Xia had the ability to support the club. That means having the cash and also the ability to ACCESS that cash. It's looking like another Carillion situation, whereby the audit report isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
Risso, that could possibly have fallen down on the Chinese documents / certificates / guarantees.
I would presume that Deloittes have done their job correctly but they may have received assurances from Chinese institutions that money and access to money were in place. I wouldn't exactly faint with surprise if those guarantees were slightly less than concrete, or if circumstances have changed since they were made. As an aside, we have a small office in Shanghai with 3 staff and since the last Party congress when Xi became all powerful there is a noticeable increase in enforcement of previously ignored regulations. Things that used to get by thanks to contacts and relationships are now being blocked.
There are many stories of Chinese companies floating on the Hong Kong stock exchange (or international companies including a valuation of their Chinese activities for their flotation) only to find later that some of the checks and balances were less than 100% genuine.
So ,if your office had wind of this,then surely Tony and Ho were privy too.From last October?
Which makes the current state of affairs look worse.
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Been thinking about this a bit. These capital controls in China haven't just happened in the last week, so when the auditors were considering the Going Concern issue for the last set of accounts, they would have had to have satisfied themselves that Xia had the ability to support the club. That means having the cash and also the ability to ACCESS that cash. It's looking like another Carillion situation, whereby the audit report isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
Risso, that could possibly have fallen down on the Chinese documents / certificates / guarantees.
I would presume that Deloittes have done their job correctly but they may have received assurances from Chinese institutions that money and access to money were in place. I wouldn't exactly faint with surprise if those guarantees were slightly less than concrete, or if circumstances have changed since they were made. As an aside, we have a small office in Shanghai with 3 staff and since the last Party congress when Xi became all powerful there is a noticeable increase in enforcement of previously ignored regulations. Things that used to get by thanks to contacts and relationships are now being blocked.
There are many stories of Chinese companies floating on the Hong Kong stock exchange (or international companies including a valuation of their Chinese activities for their flotation) only to find later that some of the checks and balances were less than 100% genuine.
So ,if your office had wind of this,then surely Tony and Ho were privy too.From last October?
Which makes the current state of affairs look worse.
Funnily enough I only found out yesterday that our Chinese national insurance payments are rising 3.5% - our man out there discovered this earlier the same day. That is just an example but there are more of rules being enforced more rigorously.
The Chinese have a saying "The mountains are high and the Emperor is far away", basically meaning out of sight out of mind. Traditionally companies in Beijing have to toe the line - being close to the Party HQ there was no wiggle room. In Shanghai people would tell you the rules then point out that for a fee a compromise solution could be found. As Xi's grip tightens on power there are fewer options to bend the rules in the areas he is interested in.
Which is probably not good for Tony Xia.
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Been thinking about this a bit. These capital controls in China haven't just happened in the last week, so when the auditors were considering the Going Concern issue for the last set of accounts, they would have had to have satisfied themselves that Xia had the ability to support the club. That means having the cash and also the ability to ACCESS that cash. It's looking like another Carillion situation, whereby the audit report isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
Risso, that could possibly have fallen down on the Chinese documents / certificates / guarantees.
I would presume that Deloittes have done their job correctly but they may have received assurances from Chinese institutions that money and access to money were in place. I wouldn't exactly faint with surprise if those guarantees were slightly less than concrete, or if circumstances have changed since they were made. As an aside, we have a small office in Shanghai with 3 staff and since the last Party congress when Xi became all powerful there is a noticeable increase in enforcement of previously ignored regulations. Things that used to get by thanks to contacts and relationships are now being blocked.
There are many stories of Chinese companies floating on the Hong Kong stock exchange (or international companies including a valuation of their Chinese activities for their flotation) only to find later that some of the checks and balances were less than 100% genuine.
So ,if your office had wind of this,then surely Tony and Ho were privy too.From last October?
Which makes the current state of affairs look worse.
Funnily enough I only found out yesterday that our Chinese national insurance payments are rising 3.5% - our man out there discovered this earlier the same day. That is just an example but there are more of rules being enforced more rigorously.
The Chinese have a saying "The mountains are high and the Emperor is far away", basically meaning out of sight out of mind. Traditionally companies in Beijing have to toe the line - being close to the Party HQ there was no wiggle room. In Shanghai people would tell you the rules then point out that for a fee a compromise solution could be found. As Xi's grip tightens on power there are fewer options to bend the rules in the areas he is interested in.
Which is probably not good for Tony Xia.
I read that with the theme tune of Kung Fu in my head
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We talked a number of times last season, on one of the many long away trips, about footy grounds we hadn't visited in Div 1 and 2. With the way things are looking, we might now get the chance. Silver Lining and all that!
Unfortunately given my age and era have seen the Villa at most grounds so even that aspect does not even raise a smile.
at our age mate it's difficult to raise many things !!!!
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I',m reserving judgement on the Wyness / Xia blame game until things are a bit clearer
Blame them both
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I',m reserving judgement on the Wyness / Xia blame game until things are a bit clearer
Blame them both
It always starts at the top.
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It already seems fairly clear that cash flow was an issue for a long time and Wyness kept things going as best as he could.
It's also fairly clear he knew the consequences of the play off and acted according to his (legal?) obligations.
I can't see he did a lot wrong.
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It already seems fairly clear that cash flow was an issue for a long time and Wyness kept things going as best as he could.
It's also fairly clear he knew the consequences of the play off and acted according to his (legal?) obligations.
I can't see he did a lot wrong.
Depends how you see his responsibilities. If i was the CE of a major business and the whole existence of the company depended on intermittent payments arriving from china to keep us afloat, then i'd hope i'd be doing something to alter that in getting the outgoings down, rather than praying we go up. When we were spending millions on players last year, he must have known it wasn't sustainable, and despite public utterances he had no plan if we didn't go up.
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I can't see how he's not to blame, as a CEO he signed off the transfer fees and wages, he must have been fully aware of the risk if we didn't get promoted.
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What risk though?
The last signing was Grabban in the transfer window.
Either this was sanctioned by Xia or within the agreed budget/financial plan - or Wyness decided on it himself and took the risk.
If it was the latter I'd have thought Xia would have got rid of him well before now.
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Xia was obviously sanctioning all of the transfers, hence his ridiculous and childish 'enigmatic' Twitter posts.
It's the owner who sets the agenda for how the club works, from the top down. If he has said "I'll pump in X amount for player purchases, and X amount for wages. Don't worry about making a loss this year, I'll support the club with the necessary working capital" then it's Wyness and the other board members' jobs to implement that vision. If that cash is then not made available, it's hardly the fault of the rest of the board. If the situation then becomes critical such that important creditors like HMRC can't be paid, then Wyness is legally bound to look at all avenues to do what's best for the club, NOT Tony Xia.
In certain circumstances, directors can be personally liable for unpaid debts, and at the very least censured and prevented from being a director when clubs go bust, so I don't blame him one bit for looking around at the best way to get out of this predicament. If Wyness has failed at anything, it's at not stopping the ridiculous shit or bust strategy this season when we've been paying Premier League wages to a load of 30 something loan players. But then again, if he has been assured that cash isn't a problem and Xia could manage the losses even if we didn't go up, again I don't see it as his fault.
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Precisely
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And all-in-all we still have no real idea what's happened other than not paying HMRC and Wyness being suspended.
Anything could have happened. Our two most senior people are saying nothing publicly though it appears one is briefing the press.
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Im still thinking Xia was a part of a group of silent other Chinese backers and they’ve pulled the plug, seems to fit with everything we know.
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And all-in-all we still have no real idea what's happened other than not paying HMRC and Wyness being suspended.
Anything could have happened. Our two most senior people are saying nothing publicly though it appears one is briefing the press.
Seems someone from Xias side is briefing Collymore as well.
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And all-in-all we still have no real idea what's happened other than not paying HMRC and Wyness being suspended.
Anything could have happened. Our two most senior people are saying nothing publicly though it appears one is briefing the press.
We know that cash hasn't been sent from the owner, which is all we really need to know to be honest. If it had, we wouldn't be in this situation. Now all we need to know is that there's a way out of it.
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I've always been against the shit or bust policy,
I've always wanted a more progressive build type program running through the club
but I have to say if things are truly as bad as it looks right now it wouldn't have mattered much if we had been promoted this would still have happened at some point in the future imo
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And all-in-all we still have no real idea what's happened other than not paying HMRC and Wyness being suspended.
Anything could have happened. Our two most senior people are saying nothing publicly though it appears one is briefing the press.
We know that cash hasn't been sent from the owner, which is all we really need to know to be honest. If it had, we wouldn't be in this situation. Now all we need to know is that there's a way out of it.
Fair point. Let's hope we get that confirmation soon, or at the very least that the bills are paid.
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Im still thinking Xia was a part of a group of silent other Chinese backers and they’ve pulled the plug, seems to fit with everything we know.
This or that there just never was the money in the first place, if the former he's having electrodes attached to his testicles as we speak I hope.
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Im still thinking Xia was a part of a group of silent other Chinese backers and they’ve pulled the plug, seems to fit with everything we know.
My thoughts aswell, the Wembley loss did for Xia and Villa.
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Well I think it's a safe bet we'll never find out the real truth. Strikes me that this geezer can't lie straight in bed.
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Is he suspended as he would prove costly to be utterly dismissed ?!
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Well I think it's a safe bet we'll never find out the real truth. Strikes me that this geezer can't lie straight in bed.
Yes, more of a rounded shape, the fat ******...
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Just looking through the accounts we filed in Feb 18 for last season. This just takes the piss now really doesnt it.............
(https://thumb.ibb.co/dCLqNo/Capture.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dCLqNo)
how to delete my mcafee account (https://deleteacc.com/mcafee)
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Suing the club now.
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Indeed, for £6m for constructive dismissal according the Torygraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/06/11/aston-villa-chief-executive-keith-wyness-suing-club-forconstructive/). Knowing how much trouble the club is in that's a pretty cowardly low blow if true.
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Indeed, for £6m for constructive dismissal according the Torygraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/06/11/aston-villa-chief-executive-keith-wyness-suing-club-forconstructive/). Knowing how much trouble the club is in that's a pretty cowardly low blow.
What's the bloke supposed to do? What would you do if you felt you'd been harshly suspended. At the end of the day, if the club is in as bad a state as desxribed recently, as a director he appears to have done nothing wrong, quite the opposite, he's done what's legally required as a director. if the club have suspended him for that it's going to be another very costly mistake.
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I'll take it on for the Club at mate's rates, if only to get the inside track on what's happening...
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If the facts are as reported then he has a good claim ...... lets remember its his job ....... the figure of £6 million sounds odd tho as his salary is reported as being nothing like that
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I'm not sure "i was only following orders" is a get-out for Wyness. End of the day if your a CEO then gambling the club's future on promotion isn't really a well thought out plan. He should have told the owner it was stupid at least.
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I'm not sure "i was only following orders" is a get-out for Wyness. End of the day if your a CEO then gambling the club's future on promotion isn't really a well thought out plan. He should have told the owner it was stupid at least.
I think it about the rumour he was looking at insolvency solutions behind Tony’s back.
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It is also understood there may be legal action taken against two members of staff, chief commercial offer Luke Organ and executive assistant Rongtian He. The reasons are as yet unknown. Both cases could go to a tribunal, sources claim.
Action by Wyness against those two people or by the club ?
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An Employment Tribunal doesn’t have jurisdiction to award damages of anything like £6 million in a constructive dismissal claim and could only hear a claim against individuals other than the employer in a discrimination case. I suspect what’s actually being threatened is some sort of breach of contract claim in the High Court.
Unless we’ve been misinformed about his salary or there are massive bonus or pension provisions I’m struggling to see where the figure could come from.
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I'm not sure "i was only following orders" is a get-out for Wyness. End of the day if your a CEO then gambling the club's future on promotion isn't really a well thought out plan. He should have told the owner it was stupid at least.
I think it about the rumour he was looking at insolvency solutions behind Tony’s back.
Whether it was behind his boss's back or not, he's legally obliged to do this in these circumstances. Xia, as a director of a UK company, is also supposed to know this. As I said before, in certain circumstances directors of insolvent companies can be liable for the debts. What would you do if it was your prosessional career and personal solvency on the line, all caused by the owner not sending over the promised funds?
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Was it really 16 days ago that I was enjoying a pre match beer in anticipation of a great day out and our return to the PL.
16 days later, the club has fallen apart. None payment of tax bills, suspension of a Senior Employee, now being sued by said employee, the owner trying to scrabble loans together just to keep the lights switched on in June, no grass on the playing surface, all major players about to be sold. To quote the great Charlie Aitken 'I was better treated as an amateur.'
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Although Xia liked to be seen to be involved in everything, Wyness would have had a certain limit of authority, whereby Xia probably didn't sign off everything. It was noticeable that Xia didn't seem to be so hands-on last season as the first.
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Indeed, for £6m for constructive dismissal according the Torygraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/06/11/aston-villa-chief-executive-keith-wyness-suing-club-forconstructive/). Knowing how much trouble the club is in that's a pretty cowardly low blow if true.
Probably being advised by a certain M. O'Neill.
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An Employment Tribunal doesn’t have jurisdiction to award damages of anything like £6 million in a constructive dismissal claim and could only hear a claim against individuals other than the employer in a discrimination case. I suspect what’s actually being threatened is some sort of breach of contract claim in the High Court.
Unless we’ve been misinformed about his salary or there are massive bonus or pension provisions I’m struggling to see where the figure could come from.
Damages to his professional reputation maybe? If he argues that the club's action has made it impossible for him to be re-employed in the football industry and he earns an average of £500K a year? Something like that maybe?
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Where do we keep finding these fucking people?
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Will probably get settled out of court.
Hopefully Xia didn't just dismiss him in a pique of rage and there were justifiable grounds for his dismissal as we need this claim like a hole in the head.
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Will probably get settled out of court.
Hopefully Xia didn't just dismiss him in a pique of rage and there were justifiable grounds for his dismissal as we need this claim like a hole in the head.
I would say that's almost certainly what happened.
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Will there come a day when people stop taking the royal piss out of our club?
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Will probably get settled out of court.
Hopefully Xia didn't just dismiss him in a pique of rage and there were justifiable grounds for his dismissal as we need this claim like a hole in the head.
I would say that's almost certainly what happened.
Well that's a bit of a disaster then. Really hope it dosen't come out that it was just a case of Xias massively upset at losing the final, hears from one of his Chinese assistants Wyness is talking to people behind his back and then just effectively sacks him without properly investigating.
Wyness has a good case if that's how it played out.
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Will probably get settled out of court.
Hopefully Xia didn't just dismiss him in a pique of rage and there were justifiable grounds for his dismissal as we need this claim like a hole in the head.
I would say that's almost certainly what happened.
Easy money for Wyness. When they showed Xia's face after the final whistle, it wouldn't take a genius to see that a bit of prodding would get a certain reaction.
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I thought Wyness is suspended.
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An Employment Tribunal doesn’t have jurisdiction to award damages of anything like £6 million in a constructive dismissal claim and could only hear a claim against individuals other than the employer in a discrimination case. I suspect what’s actually being threatened is some sort of breach of contract claim in the High Court.
Unless we’ve been misinformed about his salary or there are massive bonus or pension provisions I’m struggling to see where the figure could come from.
Damages to his professional reputation maybe? If he argues that the club's action has made it impossible for him to be re-employed in the football industry and he earns an average of £500K a year? Something like that maybe?
If he wins, wouldn't his reputation be intact and therefore would be able to get a job in football again and a financial claim wouldn't be valid. It would then go back to a breach of contract i.e. incorrect method of termination of contract if that was the case.
Or would it be on the grounds of not being able to get another job that over paid to the level we did.
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I thought Wyness is suspended.
You really didn’t/don’t think he’s coming back after this?
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"Alexa, how many pies could I buy with 6 million pounds?"
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An Employment Tribunal doesn’t have jurisdiction to award damages of anything like £6 million in a constructive dismissal claim and could only hear a claim against individuals other than the employer in a discrimination case. I suspect what’s actually being threatened is some sort of breach of contract claim in the High Court.
Unless we’ve been misinformed about his salary or there are massive bonus or pension provisions I’m struggling to see where the figure could come from.
Damages to his professional reputation maybe? If he argues that the club's action has made it impossible for him to be re-employed in the football industry and he earns an average of £500K a year? Something like that maybe?
If he wins, wouldn't his reputation be intact and therefore would be able to get a job in football again and a financial claim wouldn't be valid. It would then go back to a breach of contract i.e. incorrect method of termination of contract if that was the case.
Or would it be on the grounds of not being able to get another job that over paid to the level we did.
Surely if you advised the owner to go all out on promotion and ignore FFP for two years to the club's detriment as well as presumably recommending Bruce etc., your professional reputation would be pretty trashed anyway?
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I thought Wyness is suspended.
You really didn’t/don’t think he’s coming back after this?
No but people keep saying he is dismissed.
So he can’t claim unfair dismissal he can claim constructive dismissal.
The correct procedure by the club is to conduct an investigation concerning his conduct and then reach a decision.
The club can delay any legal action whilst they investigate.
The point I am making is that he is a very long way from receiving any compensation.
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No but he surely can’t claim unfair dismissal if he’s still here but suspended?
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Where do we keep finding these fucking people?
Between managers and executives just think about how much we've spent on salaries, bonuses and dismissal compensation in the past 8 years. It's not just enough to make you cry, but with that money we literally could have hired some the best in those positions Europe had to offer.
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Where do we keep finding these fucking people?
Between managers and executives just think about how much we've spent on salaries, bonuses and dismissal compensation in the past 8 years. It's not just enough to make you cry, but with that money we literally could have hired some the best in those positions Europe had to offer.
Not to mention the feckless wasters among the playing staff, from Warnock to McCormack via Gabby. What an unbelievable accumulation of fuckuppery.
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It looks like all those worried about the involvement of this bloke and Samuelson being involved and drawing in an unsuspecting foreign investor with the intention of relieving them of much of their cash for thier own gains may well have been on the mark to me!
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What a c**t.
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What a c**t.
Why - If you were dismissed incorrectly this is the course of action any person would take.
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He hasn't been dismissed so can't claim unfair dismissal, and if he wanted to claim constructive dismissal he has to resign, then he can make a claim at an employment tribunal for constructive dismissal.
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It sounds like he's probably resigned, but those saying why, surely he is completely washing his hands of any culpability in our plight with this course of action?
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I don't think we know anything like enough to know what sort of claim he has. On one side (i.e. the press that Wyness appears to be speaking with) he saw we were fucked and tried to do something about it and Xia got pissy and suspended him. On the other side you have the Collymore argument that he wasn't just trying to generate income but was actually providing documentation to potential buyers without the owners consent, which changes to story massively.
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We're getting in to Gareth Barry/penalty territory here!
I wonder if Mervyn King would be interested in coming back, now that Lerner is well off the scene?
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Collymore seems nearer to the mark for me. And Wyness has resigned according to something I read earlier.
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Why - If you were dismissed incorrectly this is the course of action any person would take.
Not necessarily.
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Why - If you were dismissed incorrectly this is the course of action any person would take.
Not necessarily.
Well firstly there's no evidence that he's been dismissed, or quit, as of yet. After that we don't know why he was suspended and what actions the club have taken since, if they suspended him for sharing sensitive data with a third party then that's a perfectly legitimate suspension to allow them to investigate. Without much info we really can't say whether he's in the right here or not but my gut instinct is that he's chancing it a little to try to get a bigger payoff, which is a shitty thing to do knowing the circumstances.
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Unfortunately in the blame culture world we live in, then its fairly common to launch an action like this. Most HR's companies advise you to settle rather than go to tribunal in case you lose, so you make a offer well below the claim thats been asked for, and normally they scuttle off. For the company the time and effort of a tribunal with the possibility of losing makes it worth it. However in our line of work we are talking a couple of months extra salary, not 100's of thousands or even millions of pounds
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which is a shitty thing to do knowing the circumstances
This was my point (but I made it badly).
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He's not been here two years, so unless his contract says otherwise, he doesn't qualify for the remedy of constructive dismissal.
Unless I'm not remember the LPC right. Richard?
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He’d need 2 years’ service to bring an Unfair Dismissal Claim subject to certain limited exceptions, none of which appear on the face of it to apply here.
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Wasn't it 1 year for unfair dismissal and 2 for redundancy and constructive dismissal? I'm trying to channel an Acquisition workshop from 2010 but the Peroni and the sun has addled my brain.
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No it’s always been the same for both. The qualifying period has gone up and down over the years.
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Oh well that's a shame for Keith. Oh well, never mind.
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As Richard said, it's far more likely to be for breach of contract I would think.
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The takeover was first announced in May 2016.
That said I remember when we announced Di Matteo he said at the press conference he was still under football league checks so wasn't officially CEO at that point.
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It takes a special kind of arrogance for this man to believe that having been the individual who gambled on putting moderate players on ludicrous salaries and subsequently crashing and burning he could then sue the club for money he knows it doesn’t have.
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Club Statement
Aston Villa Football Club can confirm that Keith Wyness has now left the Club.
The Club notes the media speculation relating to Keith’s departure and prospective legal proceedings.
The Club will be happy to defend legal proceedings if called on to do so and does not propose to comment further at this time.
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Hoh boy, it's a fiasco.
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Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out custard pants
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A ‘bring it on’ statement is all very ‘trumpesque’ .
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fat useless turd
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A ‘bring it on’ statement is all very ‘trumpesque’ .
It may well be but it doesn’t mean the club shouldn’t defend itself from a **** like Wyness.
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Wyness has a cheek to even think about legal proceedings. He has failed miserably in his main objective and left the business in utter chaos. Surely a most sackable status if he wasn’t prepared to do the honourable thing and resign.
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Just playing devils advocate, why is Wyness being portrayed as the bad guy?
We don’t know the facts.
Is it at all possible that he could see the shit was about to hit the fan and tried to do something about it?
He may well be a despicable fat ******, BUT, we don’t know for sure.
At the end of the day, the buck stops with the top man, and right now, I am seeing him as a more despicable ****** than wyness.
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Just playing devils advocate, why is Wyness being portrayed as the bad guy?
We don’t know the facts.
Is it at all possible that he could see the shit was about to hit the fan and tried to do something about it?
He may well be a despicable fat c***, BUT, we don’t know for sure.
At the end of the day, the buck stops with the top man, and right now, I am seeing him as a more despicable c*** than wyness.
So we don't know all the facts so shouldn't judge Wyness but Xia is a despicable c***.
Well, that's fair and even-handed.
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There are nothing but bad guys IMO. They've all presided over arguably the most shameful period in Villa's history. The fans have continued to turn up in numbers and the execs and money men have continued to exploit our support and our faith by playing an elaborate, real-life game of Pay Day at the expense of AVFC.
It's inane trying to pick a side between Xia & Wyness. They are both equally culpable. I couldn't care less if Wyness thought he was doing the right thing in the end, it was a fool's gambit after all the damage had been done. If it's even true that he was acting to try to save the club from financial doom, then it was a doom of his making. He was the person giving assurances that there was a Plan B in the event of failure. Evidently he lied.
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I go back to you putting yourself in his shoes. He was an employee with fiduciary duties as a Director. This may not be as black and white as you suggest.
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The solution to Wyness is surely a small, waffer' thin piece of ham, no?
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'Alexa can I manage one more small waffer'
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I go back to you putting yourself in his shoes. He was an employee with fiduciary duties as a Director. This may not be as black and white as you suggest.
As I said, if we were over-spending on his watch, with no back-up plan (and it was made evident that the Plan A/Plan B scenarios were under his remit & sign-off), then I frankly have no sympathy for how hard he was trying to clean up the mess in the end. We shouldn't have got to the point where he was scrambling for a way out for the club.
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He's officially gone:
Clicky (https://document-api-images-prod.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/docs/MXLQ0Ih9SeDvdGSDDtPjx_EPcpJOJSHR4AcPiB2bCTU/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAJE3RCIABAVL3JTNQ%2F20180612%2Feu-west-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20180612T122501Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=FQoDYXdzEEQaDHon9Umqp8Eiw8jdYyK3AwaWEy%2F35e2nQZbeIv1GOhFLT%2Fo2VMjMsXo0mEib4Y8aOPP0CTjV4YsqEhvQ3gQs3zj2U1GvyvF%2FpDp9%2BFdSQxWQ8jLoGGJwEQw9bPVHGUh5T5JdmvEjvRYw35T%2F2pbmaCh35QRisZMnIMfy89Cz%2Fg9INa2QsZfXj2kc5I2s0ltnNfUZWjyd6d8Mms7dRt%2FvjxVSsVD%2BQLI8nn5dXB1z%2BGdIHTVbEgpM3M4SsoLSIOPiZ0K99TrVkY%2FroHYK9YG7c6N8xXChSv%2FDKuf9QSLHImAyf6%2B%2B%2BAml%2BKVCVlJoBRon02EL0OQ6KXfjeRvgAA%2F3VLrjPmvgA6v1L0DW6ITofat2TXRCJdIa22bIB5bkDdJ8F1q5WWJ33R%2F7vbAPDzJTxPpnKORBXQToseWLk%2B%2BwMSuoXjjXXdcSaPBlEhuy4MJEyA15SFrxdRQXbXEdu%2Bh1FhNYi3la51lK%2BxbHS%2FkJfw70KmxJIp2hEcUFdEMCB2xy1Bu3JqvGMrt5eKDWs87rM1qK7UPy%2FQJsyjJUquF1ou44dL1M6WqYNlY4X5KJfPWy6ZX1VfH%2F8SVIwBlD4IexdMnhfrSexNUomdn%2B2AU%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=a1c21cb892e3373916c8babd37e26d2fb90763e4852874d0a7ac2d1e4295d34b)
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The Club will be happy to defend legal proceedings if called on to do so and does not propose to comment further at this time
More than likely to issue this statement they have taken advice and feel their case is a sound one.
I think Xia is a genuine man, he maybe naïve, but I do not think he is crooked like the hairdresser
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You can only say what your gut instinct tells you but I see Wyness as a fat red faced cock end who would look more appropriate sitting on a battered old sofa in his y fronts eating many packets of cheese puffs and watching Jeremy Kyle than sitting in the Villa boardroom in a suit. Xia seems genuine if misguided and gave it a good go, I think he's suffered from restrictions from China. I think he needs to be more involved from now on mind.
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Amazing how many people have decided Wyness is a ****** on the basis of him doing what was his fiduciary duty as a company director.
So now we have no CEO. Unless Dr Xia is going to do it.
Who is filled with confidence by that idea?
What an unholy mess.
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Amazing how many people have decided Wyness is a c*** on the basis of him doing what was his fiduciary duty as a company director.
So now we have no CEO. Unless Dr Xia is going to do it.
Who is filled with confidence by that idea?
What an unholy mess.
Surely, his first duty is to the owner and if he cannot get any sense from him, he resigns before his duties as a director come into play.
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Amazing how many people have decided Wyness is a c*** on the basis of him doing what was his fiduciary duty as a company director.
Not if he was also leaking details to prospective buyers/vultures and touting himself as a man to keep in the job. Instead of dicking about with "Reveal Grabban!" videos for our social media, why weren't he and the FD making it clear to Xia of an iceberg ahead and assuring the fans that we had a solid Plan B in place?
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I go back to you putting yourself in his shoes. He was an employee with fiduciary duties as a Director. This may not be as black and white as you suggest.
As I said, if we were over-spending on his watch, with no back-up plan (and it was made evident that the Plan A/Plan B scenarios were under his remit & sign-off), then I frankly have no sympathy for how hard he was trying to clean up the mess in the end. We shouldn't have got to the point where he was scrambling for a way out for the club.
If the owner had a plan to continue to invest to fund growth (ie success) as well as plugging the working capital deficit every month, then apart from advise him, there isn't a lot else you can do. The owner is now showing signs of being extremely thin skinned (the crying like a man baby on his tweet last week and his seemingly pissedoffedness at Wyness suggesting Administration) so it isn't beyond the realms of possibility that Wyness would have been ignored anyway if advising him on the ills of continual investment.
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Amazing how many people have decided Wyness is a c*** on the basis of him doing what was his fiduciary duty as a company director.
So now we have no CEO. Unless Dr Xia is going to do it.
Who is filled with confidence by that idea?
What an unholy mess.
Surely, his first duty is to the owner and if he cannot get any sense from him, he resigns before his duties as a director come into play.
Nope, his first duty is to the company.
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I like to keep things simple. Xia is a c***, Wyness is a c*** and for good measure, so is Rongtian 'fanboy' He.
A pox on their houses.
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blimey, a a tad forthright.
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I like to keep things simple. Xia is a c***, Wyness is a c*** and for good measure, so is Rongtian 'fanboy' He.
A pox on their houses.
[/quote
Blimey. You aren’t Donald Trump’s Public Relations adviser by any chance are you ?
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Never could get the hang of the quote thingy :)
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Amazing how many people have decided Wyness is a c*** on the basis of him doing what was his fiduciary duty as a company director.
So now we have no CEO. Unless Dr Xia is going to do it.
Who is filled with confidence by that idea?
What an unholy mess.
Was he acting under a fiduciary duty though?
We don't really know what has gone on. Wyness is claiming that he needed to source small investors to pay a tax bill and others are claiming that he was trying to arrange a sale of the club at a knockdown price.
I'm not convinced that Wyness had the authority to source small investors without the owner's knowledge and neither am I convinced that not paying a tax bill constitutes not acting under a fiduciary duty. Hundreds of businesses are penalised for failing to pay taxes on time but I'm not aware of any directors being penalised for doing so.
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Amazing how many people have decided Wyness is a c*** on the basis of him doing what was his fiduciary duty as a company director.
So now we have no CEO. Unless Dr Xia is going to do it.
Who is filled with confidence by that idea?
What an unholy mess.
Surely, his first duty is to the owner and if he cannot get any sense from him, he resigns before his duties as a director come into play.
Nope, his first duty is to the company.
Whether we like it or not, it is Xia's company and therefore the CEO reports to him. In his duty as a director, he should not do anything illegal or allow the company to do so and to ensure the company follows regulations. In a normal company, he would have duties to shareholders but we only have one (I think).
I do not know what has gone on but Wyness should have resigned his position before he was put in a position to either break the law or not comply with regulations if the owner refused to act on his advice as CEO and director (if this was the case). What he should not have done (and I don't know if he has) is go behind the owner's back and undermine his position as owner.
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If he's leaked financial details to third parties then I'm curious as to how this is acting in the club's interest.
Being a psychotic litigator my advice to AVFC Ltd would be sure Mr Creasote.
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If he's leaked financial details to third parties then I'm curious as to how this is acting in the club's interest.
Being a psychotic litigator my advice to AVFC Ltd would be sure Mr Creasote.
If he could reasonably prove that there was a realistic chance of the club not being able to pay its debts going forward, and therefore wasn't a going concern, then it's incumbent on him as a director to find a solution. If that included trying to find outside investment, then that would necessitate the sharing of certain financial information, all of which would be publicly available in due course anyway.
All of this shit has happened because Xia stopped providing the working capital that was needed, surely?
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Amazing how many people have decided Wyness is a c*** on the basis of him doing what was his fiduciary duty as a company director.
So now we have no CEO. Unless Dr Xia is going to do it.
Who is filled with confidence by that idea?
What an unholy mess.
Was he acting under a fiduciary duty though?
We don't really know what has gone on. Wyness is claiming that he needed to source small investors to pay a tax bill and others are claiming that he was trying to arrange a sale of the club at a knockdown price.
I'm not convinced that Wyness had the authority to source small investors without the owner's knowledge and neither am I convinced that not paying a tax bill constitutes not acting under a fiduciary duty. Hundreds of businesses are penalised for failing to pay taxes on time but I'm not aware of any directors being penalised for doing so.
It's the reason behind not paying the tax bill that's absolutely key. Not paying it because of an admin error, fair enough, happens all the time. Not paying it because you've run out of cash - far more serious. It's not the failure to pay the tax per se, although that's serious enough as the winding up order showed. It's the wider financial implications ie if it's that the club is making big losses on a monthly basis and no longer has the promised support, then if that situation isn't rectified, administration is the next step.
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Amazing how many people have decided Wyness is a c*** on the basis of him doing what was his fiduciary duty as a company director.
So now we have no CEO. Unless Dr Xia is going to do it.
Who is filled with confidence by that idea?
What an unholy mess.
Was he acting under a fiduciary duty though?
We don't really know what has gone on. Wyness is claiming that he needed to source small investors to pay a tax bill and others are claiming that he was trying to arrange a sale of the club at a knockdown price.
I'm not convinced that Wyness had the authority to source small investors without the owner's knowledge and neither am I convinced that not paying a tax bill constitutes not acting under a fiduciary duty. Hundreds of businesses are penalised for failing to pay taxes on time but I'm not aware of any directors being penalised for doing so.
It's the reason behind not paying the tax bill that's absolutely key. Not paying it because of an admin error, fair enough, happens all the time. Not paying it because you've run out of cash - far more serious. It's not the failure to pay the tax per se, although that's serious enough as the winding up order showed. It's the wider financial implications ie if it's that the club is making big losses on a monthly basis and no longer has the promised support, then if that situation isn't rectified, administration is the next step.
The argument is that Wyness has a fiduciary duty not to allow the club (the legal fiction) to continue to trade whilst insolvent.
It has nothing to do with what the reason for not paying is.
With assets such as Grealish, Chester etc, etc, I'm not convinced that there was a need to approach 3rd parties for so called small investment - Especially whenWyness was not in a position to accept such investment, even if any was forthcoming.
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Not sure if this has been posted but the filing to companies house around Wyness service contract mentions sections of Companies Act to do with compensation of officers if they lose office.
Not sure if this is where the constructive dismissal thread comes in.
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The argument is that Wyness has a fiduciary duty not to allow the club (the legal fiction) to continue to trade whilst insolvent.
It has nothing to do with what the reason for not paying is.
You completely failed to understand my post. If you don't pay a tax bill because of a clerical error, it's not great but as long as you pay it, there are no ongoing problems, If you are otherwise a healthy and solvent company, then great. If you are on the point of insolvency, then not paying your tax bills and other creditors is a symptom of that.
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Amazing how many people have decided Wyness is a c*** on the basis of him doing what was his fiduciary duty as a company director.
So now we have no CEO. Unless Dr Xia is going to do it.
Who is filled with confidence by that idea?
What an unholy mess.
Pity he didn't perform his fiduciary duties re "going concern" when it was clear to him (as it must have been ages ago) that the shit was well on the way to the fan, rather than after it had already hit. Not sure how much credit he should be given for closing the stable door after the horse has bolted to the other side of the planet, especially as he was obliged to do it and was covering his own arse anyway.
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The argument is that Wyness has a fiduciary duty not to allow the club (the legal fiction) to continue to trade whilst insolvent.
It has nothing to do with what the reason for not paying is.
You completely failed to understand my post. If you don't pay a tax bill because of a clerical error, it's not great but as long as you pay it, there are no ongoing problems, If you are otherwise a healthy and solvent company, then great. If you are on the point of insolvency, then not paying your tax bills and other creditors is a symptom of that.
I didn't misunderstand it, I dismissed it as incorrect and I don't think you'll find many companies out there who miss multi million pound payments because of "clerical errors".
The fiduciary duty is placed upon a company director in accordance with Part 10A of the Companies Act 2006.
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The argument is that Wyness has a fiduciary duty not to allow the club (the legal fiction) to continue to trade whilst insolvent.
It has nothing to do with what the reason for not paying is.
You completely failed to understand my post. If you don't pay a tax bill because of a clerical error, it's not great but as long as you pay it, there are no ongoing problems, If you are otherwise a healthy and solvent company, then great. If you are on the point of insolvency, then not paying your tax bills and other creditors is a symptom of that.
I didn't misunderstand it, I dismissed it as incorrect and I don't think you'll find many companies out there who miss multi million pound payments because of "clerical errors".
Christ. I didn't say that was happened, it was an example of when missing a tax payment wouldn't be a cause for concern over a company's future solvency. Unlike the situation we're in.
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I think technically he was ok hanging on until the Final and or if he was given assurances that liabilities would be met. After the final if he seeked reassurances and none were forthcoming he should have to resign.
I don’t see how he could take on his own back to find new investment without the instruction of the shareholders, this is a governance issue nota fiduciary duty.
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The argument is that Wyness has a fiduciary duty not to allow the club (the legal fiction) to continue to trade whilst insolvent.
It has nothing to do with what the reason for not paying is.
You completely failed to understand my post. If you don't pay a tax bill because of a clerical error, it's not great but as long as you pay it, there are no ongoing problems, If you are otherwise a healthy and solvent company, then great. If you are on the point of insolvency, then not paying your tax bills and other creditors is a symptom of that.
I didn't misunderstand it, I dismissed it as incorrect and I don't think you'll find many companies out there who miss multi million pound payments because of "clerical errors".
Christ. I didn't say that was happened, it was an example of when missing a tax payment wouldn't be a cause for concern over a company's future solvency. Unlike the situation we're in.
Now it is you who is misunderstanding. I didn't say you did - I said your whole comment was misconceived (and I'd add irrelevant).
The point is, it would be very, very rare for a company to miss a multi million pound payment by "accident", be that Villa, Virgin, The BBC, Scottish Power or whoever. The usual reason is cash flow.
As I said previously, it is not the cause for concern that is Wyness's argument - It is that he had a duty placed upon him to ensure that the company was not trading whilst insolvent. I personally don't believe him and I'm more inclined to believe Xia on this one.
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I think we need to get Counsel’s Opinion on this. Shall we start a whip round?
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I think we need to get Counsel’s Opinion on this. Shall we start a whip round?
You mean you don't know one who'll do it for free?
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I think we need to get Counsel’s Opinion on this. Shall we start a whip round?
Didn’t Karen Brady work for the council?
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She sold a lot of whips.
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I think we need to get Counsel’s Opinion on this. Shall we start a whip round?
I don't think we've got enough money to find that species a back bone.
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She sold a lot of whips.
Expertly played.
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I think we need to get Counsel’s Opinion on this.
I'd rather set fire to a pile of tenners in the back garden.
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I think we need to get Counsel’s Opinion on this.
I'd rather set fire to a pile of tenners in the back garden.
That'd be cheaper, for sure.
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I think we need to get Counsel’s Opinion on this.
I'd rather set fire to a pile of tenners in the back garden.
That'd be cheaper, for sure.
And more likely to be of some use in the future.
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I think we need to get Counsel’s Opinion on this.
I'd rather set fire to a pile of tenners in the back garden.
That'd be cheaper, for sure.
And more likely to be of some use in the future.
I'm glad I share bandwidth with some true believers who aren't fooled by the fancy dress merchants.
Have visions of us being like the H&V answer to the KLF now too.
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Is it at all possible that he could see the shit was about to hit the fan and tried to do something about it?
Andy Chief Executive’s job is not to spot when shit is about to hit the fan but to make sure shit is not made in the first place.
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Amazing how many people have decided Wyness is a c*** on the basis of him doing what was his fiduciary duty as a company director.
So now we have no CEO. Unless Dr Xia is going to do it.
Who is filled with confidence by that idea?
What an unholy mess.
Pity he didn't perform his fiduciary duties re "going concern" when it was clear to him (as it must have been ages ago) that the shit was well on the way to the fan, rather than after it had already hit. Not sure how much credit he should be given for closing the stable door after the horse has bolted to the other side of the planet, especially as he was obliged to do it and was covering his own arse anyway.
The way I see it too.
He oversaw the RDM and Bruce buying sprees which were at best haphazard. He clearly backed Bruce in bringing in Scott Hogan on a stupid contract by which we were already in the drunken gambler stakes with the club's future.
If he had a huge issue with the governance of the club and it's solvency, he should have resigned over 12 months ago when the writing was on the wall. He rolled the dice with the rest of them all the way up to the play-off final.
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The elephant in the room is were the dice loaded.
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In his favour.
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Of course.
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Can anyone work out what his latest tweet means?
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https://twitter.com/retsub12/status/1020064109252042754
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Very cryptic linking to this page
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Gang_of_Four
Bound to delete it so grabbed link whilst I can.
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Can anyone work out what his latest tweet means?
May be stretching it, but 4 Midlands clubs owned by Chinese?
Regardless it's a weird one and despite only being a link it somehow makes him look a bit of a prat.
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The Gang of Four were deposed trying to overthrow the government. I assume he’s gloating that Xia is on his way out.
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The Gang of Four were deposed trying to overthrow the government. I assume he’s gloating that Xia is on his way out.
That's my take on it, also.
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Some of the abuse on that thread is beyond embarrassing. However, I hope that the tweet means that Xia is indeed buggering off.
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This made me loff though
Is it true you have devoured Ross McCormack and that is the reason for his disappearance?
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It's the bloke named Tom Fox on there I feel sorry for.
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This made me loff though
Is it true you have devoured Ross McCormack and that is the reason for his disappearance?
Me too
Clearly a dig at the fall of Chinese power.
Could be interesting over the next few days. Let's hope they have more clue than Keith and Tony.
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Can't be a reference to the other 3 owners because they aren't on the way out.
The gang of 4 must be Xia, Ho, Organ and one other. Perhaps Wyness thought there was some kind of conspiracy against him?
Pleasing to read because it adds fuel to the fire that we're being sold.
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I wouldn’t place much emphasis on the numbers mentioned. Our Keith never did.
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Wouldn’t have thought it clever for someone who is apparently persuing legal action for constructive dismissal to make social media posts that can even be remotely linked to his employers?
Kick out his case & save avfc a few quid
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:D
IMO... a totally meaningless "late-night-twitter-drunk" Twitt.
It has absolutely NO RELEVANCE to Xia.... other than a vieled threat... that "this could happen" ~ if so ~ this is the level of intelligence that was our CEO ?
Perhaps he's just trawling Wiki for vintage Chinese Law ?
And doesn't realise that China Law has evolved and changed in the last 40/50 years...as has Western Law.
The best I can think of, is he was pissed, or he was hacked. :D :
Totally meaningless...especially withou emoticons...and equations
;D
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No, it's has meaning. The amount of idiotic clients I have who get into got water with Facebook posts made public would surprise you.
Somewhere, some paralegal will be scanning this site and other forms of media and at some point it will form part of standard disclosure.
Edit: the link is to four deposed and smeared party officials, blamed for the very worst excesses of the cultural revolution following Mao's departure.
I disagree with the analysis thus far of my colleagues; Xia is Mao, the "monster" and Wyness is the one being smeared and blamed for the very worst excesses of the regime.
I further submit that of Alfititmus is off his pickle. And those would be my submissions.
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Can't be a reference to the other 3 owners because they aren't on the way out.
The gang of 4 must be Xia, Ho, Organ and one other. Perhaps Wyness thought there was some kind of conspiracy against him?
Pleasing to read because it adds fuel to the fire that we're being sold.
You forgot Shirley Williams.
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I think Alfi's assertion that big old Keith has engaged in some "pissed posting" is a decent shout.
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Maybe he'll quote some Plan B lyrics next...........oh no wait, he won't be able to find those!
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Yes a bit too much single malt imbibing I think.
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As Ads says, gang of four was blamed for problems under Mao when criticism of Mao was verboten. It's probably Wyness saying he's a patsy and Xia, as the great supreme leader, is really to blame but no-one's brave enough to say. Yet.
Or he's been on the sherbet.
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I'd say either way it's a pretty stupid thing to do if he's trying to put a constructive dismissal case together.
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Don't tell him that. This is what passes for entertainment nowadays.
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fuck off Keith
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fuck off Keith
Echo that. Choke on your pie.
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Aye, if he had such a problem with xia's plans you'd think he'd have resigned before the shit hit the fan or refused to go along with it in the first place. It may not have been his idea to gamble everything on promotion but he sat there taking the money until it was obvious to anyone with a brain it was going down the pan. Bleating now that he's getting blamed for following orders - well a few people have used that defence before without much success
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Keith's a big fat lump of useless blubber.
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I think Alfi's assertion that big old Keith has engaged in some "pissed posting" is a decent shout.
Why? Has he posted at three in the morning saying that he loves us and wants us back?
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Aye, if he had such a problem with xia's plans you'd think he'd have resigned before the shit hit the fan or refused to go along with it in the first place. It may not have been his idea to gamble everything on promotion but he sat there taking the money until it was obvious to anyone with a brain it was going down the pan. Bleating now that he's getting blamed for following orders - well a few people have used that defence before without much success
Not wanting to defend him for his contribution but why should he resign? It’s a job to him and, like most of us, he would expect paying off if the employer wishes to break the contract.
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If he was clandestinely going round trying to tap up other investors motivated in chief on the basis of keeping his gravy train job after sitting back and watching the club burn, then he deserves getting potted.
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Players, managers, administration staff, chief execs and the like. In recent years we seem to have made more people disappear than the Argentinian military junta did in the 'dirty war' of the late seventies and early eighties.
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Players, managers, administration staff, chief execs and the like. In recent years we seem to have made more people disappear than the Argentinian military junta did in the 'dirty war' of the late seventies and early eighties.
We've definitely made a lot of people rich.
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Aye, if he had such a problem with xia's plans you'd think he'd have resigned before the shit hit the fan or refused to go along with it in the first place. It may not have been his idea to gamble everything on promotion but he sat there taking the money until it was obvious to anyone with a brain it was going down the pan. Bleating now that he's getting blamed for following orders - well a few people have used that defence before without much success
Not wanting to defend him for his contribution but why should he resign? It’s a job to him and, like most of us, he would expect paying off if the employer wishes to break the contract.
Well if your CEO of a multi-million pound business and your employer comes up with a plan that has to work or the alternative is we end up in deep financial shit because of it, then i'd expect you to query it. And if you go along with it and it fails, i wouldn't expect you to be posting about scapegoats on twitter like you weren't complicit in it from the start. He may think he's been unfairly sacked but he agreed to work with Xia's plans so what did he expect?
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To be fair if you boss gives you instructions as to how you are to do your job and you follow those orders and it goes tits up it isn't totally your fault. I suppose it depends on how much he did off his own back and how much, if at all he stood up for himself if he disagreed with the owners orders.
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To be fair if you boss gives you instructions as to how you are to do your job and you follow those orders and it goes tits up it isn't totally your fault. I suppose it depends on how much he did off his own back and how much, if at all he stood up for himself if he disagreed with the owners orders.
If you're the CEO then it is your fault to a large degree because part of the job is taking on that responsibility. It's the same reason why Bruce deserves a lot of blame for wembley, if you accept the job then you accept the responsibilities that come with it. Sulking about how hard the job is or how it's not your fault is, in my opinion, just admitting that you didn't know what you were doing, be that in agreeing to take the job or in executing it. It's why I have no time for Lambert, it's why I can't stand the excuses Bruce gives and it's why I think Wyness is coming across as a tit right now.
Wyness put me off with the whole 3 teams bullshit and at it's heart that the source of the 'shit or bust' attitude the club took last year that led to him leaving, if he didn't believe in it then he should've been making it clear that it was wrong, not talking abut it like it was some revolutionary idea to not give a fuck about anything after the current season until we're promoted.
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Wyness hired Bruce and backed him, he failed.
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Aye, if he had such a problem with xia's plans you'd think he'd have resigned before the shit hit the fan or refused to go along with it in the first place. It may not have been his idea to gamble everything on promotion but he sat there taking the money until it was obvious to anyone with a brain it was going down the pan. Bleating now that he's getting blamed for following orders - well a few people have used that defence before without much success
They weren't Xia's plans. They were his. I would happily agree that Xia was naive and reckless. But it was that fat prick that was the architect of the plan to overspend our way up.
At least he wasn't telling fibs at the Trust AGM in March. There was a Plan B if we didn't go up. I just didn't expect it to be deliberately grind us into Administration so you can force a cheap sale to your mates and take a nice financial kick back when it happens.
In case he is feeling litigious, said Stan Collymore....
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Surely the potential admin was only because the cash from Xia dried up? Xia must have agreed to fund the project in the first place.
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The unanswered question is did the money dry up or was it used to fund things Xia had not approved. I don't suppose we shall ever know.
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Surely the potential admin was only because the cash from Xia dried up? Xia must have agreed to fund the project in the first place.
Yes. But it was Wyness' plan on how we slung cash at it. He was cashing in the family silver long before any issues with cash from China became apparent.
Xia is a reckless idiot for trusting the dodgy bugger but naive on that he didn't see pound signs in Keith's eyes. He got taken to the cleaners.
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The unanswered question is did the money dry up or was it used to fund things Xia had not approved. I don't suppose we shall ever know.
I don't think either are true. Xia is a strategy guy. Wyness was there to manage the money and implement it.
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You answer my question Stuart. The money crisis was generated. It didn't just happen.
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To be fair if you boss gives you instructions as to how you are to do your job and you follow those orders and it goes tits up it isn't totally your fault. I suppose it depends on how much he did off his own back and how much, if at all he stood up for himself if he disagreed with the owners orders.
If you're a statutory director, in the eyes of UK law it absolutely is your fault/responsibility to fix.
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Aye, if he had such a problem with xia's plans you'd think he'd have resigned before the shit hit the fan or refused to go along with it in the first place. It may not have been his idea to gamble everything on promotion but he sat there taking the money until it was obvious to anyone with a brain it was going down the pan. Bleating now that he's getting blamed for following orders - well a few people have used that defence before without much success
They weren't Xia's plans. They were his. I would happily agree that Xia was naive and reckless. But it was that fat prick that was the architect of the plan to overspend our way up.
At least he wasn't telling fibs at the Trust AGM in March. There was a Plan B if we didn't go up. I just didn't expect it to be deliberately grind us into Administration so you can force a cheap sale to your mates and take a nice financial kick back when it happens.
In case he is feeling litigious, said Stan Collymore....
well if that's true and i have no reason to doubt your sources, then Wyness' bleating is even more self-serving. I am staggered that he was given that much rope to run the show though.
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Aye, if he had such a problem with xia's plans you'd think he'd have resigned before the shit hit the fan or refused to go along with it in the first place. It may not have been his idea to gamble everything on promotion but he sat there taking the money until it was obvious to anyone with a brain it was going down the pan. Bleating now that he's getting blamed for following orders - well a few people have used that defence before without much success
They weren't Xia's plans. They were his. I would happily agree that Xia was naive and reckless. But it was that fat prick that was the architect of the plan to overspend our way up.
At least he wasn't telling fibs at the Trust AGM in March. There was a Plan B if we didn't go up. I just didn't expect it to be deliberately grind us into Administration so you can force a cheap sale to your mates and take a nice financial kick back when it happens.
In case he is feeling litigious, said Stan Collymore....
well if that's true and i have no reason to doubt your sources, then Wyness' bleating is even more self-serving. I am staggered that he was given that much rope to run the show though.
You could say that of Lerner’s trust in MON.
Business operates in a framework of due process and trust: we have not had both for a very long time, given the wastefulness of the last 15 years or so.
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The above is more evidence that it will be critical that both of these new owners put in place a solid management structure. Randy hired poorly and trusted people who ultimately let him down badly. Xia the same even if we supposedly hired a “football man”. These fellas are smart and minted which I hope translates into really excellent football and business decisions going forward at Aston Villa.
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To be fair if you boss gives you instructions as to how you are to do your job and you follow those orders and it goes tits up it isn't totally your fault. I suppose it depends on how much he did off his own back and how much, if at all he stood up for himself if he disagreed with the owners orders.
If you're a statutory director, in the eyes of UK law it absolutely is your fault/responsibility to fix.
Also Xia, as the owner, must have provided proof of the ability to support the club for a minimum of the next 12 months. It can't really be anybody else's fault but Xia's when that support fails to materalise.
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It's why Wyness has brought a tortious interference claim rather than constructive dismissal apparently
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It's why Wyness has brought a tortious interference claim rather than constructive dismissal apparently
What a tort!
Although if he has been interfered with something should be done. Down with that kind of thing.
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It's why Wyness has brought a tortious interference claim rather than constructive dismissal apparently
So I looked up tortious interference and came across this...
If you’re still asking yourself, “what does tortious interference mean,” look no further, below is a simple and concise tortious interference definition and example by author of the Dictionary of Modern Legal Usage Bryan A. Garner. Garner, speaking to legendary New York Times wordsmith William Safire defined tortious interference as the following, “Say you had a contract with Joe Blow, and I for some reason tried to get you to break that contract…Or say that Pepsi has an exclusive contract with a hotel chain to carry Pepsi products, and Coke tries to get the hotel to carry Coke despite that contract. That’s tortious interference.”
Is Wyness saying he was sacked for trying to carry out details listed in his contract/job description?
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It's why Wyness has brought a tortious interference claim rather than constructive dismissal apparently
I agree. Wyness is a tortoise.
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It's why Wyness has brought a tortious interference claim rather than constructive dismissal apparently
I agree. Wyness is a tortoise.
I am trying desperately to come up with puns relating to those hard shelled reptiles - The only one I can think of was that "Terry Paine" played for Southampton :)
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Following the tortious interference claim I understand that Wyness will be heading north of the border this winter to try his luck at Scottish club Hibernation as they make a bid for the Scottish Premier Turtle :)
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It's why Wyness has brought a tortious interference claim rather than constructive dismissal apparently
So I looked up tortious interference and came across this...
If you’re still asking yourself, “what does tortious interference mean,” look no further, below is a simple and concise tortious interference definition and example by author of the Dictionary of Modern Legal Usage Bryan A. Garner. Garner, speaking to legendary New York Times wordsmith William Safire defined tortious interference as the following, “Say you had a contract with Joe Blow, and I for some reason tried to get you to break that contract…Or say that Pepsi has an exclusive contract with a hotel chain to carry Pepsi products, and Coke tries to get the hotel to carry Coke despite that contract. That’s tortious interference.”
Is Wyness saying he was sacked for trying to carry out details listed in his contract/job description?
I thought it was the fat f***** complaining about somebody stopping his cake supply.
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It is quite clear why Wyness got the sack, if stories this week about having to pay for their own meals are true (of course they are) he was caught not paying for his pies and cake, it was in his contract, all the pies and cake he could eat for free. Charlatan. Sue him Wyness Sue
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Sorry if this is old news but, I've just seen a tweet from Wyness saying how it was privilege to have worked with Bruce and how he's a brilliant man-manager etc. The comments are a joy to behold. I'm sorry I can't link it but I see Jon Crofts was a responder, perhaps he can oblige.
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Sorry if this is old news but, I've just seen a tweet from Wyness saying how it was privilege to have worked with Bruce and how he's a brilliant man-manager etc. The comments are a joy to behold. I'm sorry I can't link it but I see Jon Crofts was a responder, perhaps he can oblige.
Ha! I'll see what I can do.
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(https://thumb.ibb.co/kdF3te/DABD7410_E776_420_E_BC28_49_B97_A14_ED79.png) (https://ibb.co/kdF3te)
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Here's a Link (https://twitter.com/retsub12?cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjcw%3D%3D&refsrc=email) to it. Hope it works.
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Is he still trying to sue us? Falling foul of FFP to fund that and TeamBruce's pay-offs would be a right kick in the Balearics.
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Love the comment on there about fat club
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We should be suing him, the rotund gentleman
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Anyone else picked up on the story that @AvfcLeaks is drip feeding on that well known source of truth that is Twitter?
Now I know everyone enjoys a good conspiracy theory and the basic spin of this one is that, allegedly, Samuleson, Sean Hedges and Jamie Banfil (as part of company called Socfin) still have an "involvement" at Villa Park. Allegedly.
Between them, it would seem that Tony has been setup as the Patsy and that Keith was the fall guy. Again Allegedly.
The bit that's just made the story a little more interesting is that Keith Wyness has just retweeted it...
Have a read and make your own minds up.
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Well this is interesting.
Just seen posted on Twitter. From their real accounts - a direct reply from Wyness to Xia's post.
As much as I think Xia was a bit cheeky with his post, I'd really like him to reply to Wyness with "Fat useless prick".
@Dr_TonyXia Verified account
6h6 hours ago
3years ago. That game. This picture. I made the decision to scarify for this beloved club. Maybe it’s delayed. I kept my promise! UTV! VTWD!
keith wyness Verified account
@retsub12
9m9 minutes ago
Fraud
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Can't they both just fuck off? Wyness was a useless prick and Xia had no money. Why he got his noggin in there at Wembley today I have no idea, but between them they have given McCormack 77k a week now and Lansbury near on 50k a week.
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The obvious answer is to reach a deal with one and keep the other who at least bears a passing resemblance to a football player.
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The obvious answer is to reach a deal with one and keep the other who at least bears a passing resemblance to a football player.
I don't think we should reach a compromise with Wyness, let it go fully to tribunal.
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Can't they both just fuck off? Wyness was a useless prick and Xia had no money. Why he got his noggin in there at Wembley today I have no idea, but between them they have given McCormack 77k a week now and Lansbury near on 50k a week.
Got a feeling McCormack has been paid off. Friend of mine helped him move up to Scotland on the day of the semi final 1st leg.
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Well this is interesting.
Just seen posted on Twitter. From their real accounts - a direct reply from Wyness to Xia's post.
As much as I think Xia was a bit cheeky with his post, I'd really like him to reply to Wyness with "Fat useless prick".
@Dr_TonyXia Verified account
6h6 hours ago
3years ago. That game. This picture. I made the decision to scarify for this beloved club. Maybe it’s delayed. I kept my promise! UTV! VTWD!
keith wyness Verified account
@retsub12
9m9 minutes ago
Fraud
Xia posted again this morning.
You can see through one’s deepest dark in the human nature🐍especially in the lowest and highest...
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Xia nearly took our club into a financial meltdown from which it might have taken many years to recover,
his ass was saved at the 11th hour by the new owners
he was never what he said he was, he was gambler,a trickster,even a fraud as Wyness said
yet seeing him at Wembley yesterday for reasons i don't understand but i bore him no malice,
in fact was even a bit pleased for him
Wyness on the other hand i could never stand, really disliked him from the very beginning and never changed my mind
hope he gets not a penny from us
Xia - Wyness - Bruce
for me the worst unholy trinity leading the club i can remember,
glad its all over and the someone has just switched the light back on at the end of a long tunnel,
Edens/Sawiris - Purslow - Smith
will hopefully be the best we can remember
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Quote
@Dr_TonyXia Verified account
6h6 hours ago
3years ago. That game. This picture. I made the decision to scarify for this beloved club. Maybe it’s delayed. I kept my promise! UTV! VTWD!
So we now know why he's still at the club, he's assisting the groundsman.
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These two can continue their pettiness at each other out of the public glare of the club if they don’t mind!
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Both of them should have the good grace to keep their mouths shut and retire gracefully from any further involvement in the game.
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Xia nearly took our club into a financial meltdown from which it might have taken many years to recover,
his ass was saved at the 11th hour by the new owners
he was never what he said he was, he was gambler,a trickster,even a fraud as Wyness said
yet seeing him at Wembley yesterday for reasons i don't understand but i bore him no malice,
in fact was even a bit pleased for him
Wyness on the other hand i could never stand, really disliked him from the very beginning and never changed my mind
hope he gets not a penny from us
Xia - Wyness - Bruce
for me the worst unholy trinity leading the club i can remember,
glad its all over and the someone has just switched the light back on at the end of a long tunnel,
Edens/Sawiris - Purslow - Smith
will hopefully be the best we can remember
trying not to go too OTT about Smith, but for me, I’d say he’s nearly up there with Graham Taylor (in terms of esteem!). If he could just win that Fkn FA cup and maybe a UEFA, so we’ve got the available set...still buzzing!!
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Pair of ugly aunties fighting over the bouquet. Fuck them both.
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How quickly can we finally get rid of Xia? Surely there’s an exit strategy for him?
And by that I don’t mean concrete wellies in the reservoir.
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How quickly can we finally get rid of Xia? Surely there’s an exit strategy for him?
And by that I don’t mean concrete wellies in the reservoir.
It would appear we will never be able to discard Xia for good. He is like a f*cking boomerang.
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Saw Xia was in the line of dignitaries shaking the players' hands. Wish he'd just fuck off completely, the shit-shoed bastard.
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How quickly can we finally get rid of Xia? Surely there’s an exit strategy for him?
And by that I don’t mean concrete wellies in the reservoir.
Concrete wellies would be an upgrade on his usual shoes.
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For a fat lad he sure is thin skinned ;D
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For a fat lad he sure is thin skinned ;D
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Haha! What did you do?
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Is "scarify" supposed to mean "sacrifice" or has joined Lerner's lexicon of love with the shunnamites?
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Saw Xia was in the line of dignitaries shaking the players' hands. Wish he'd just fuck off completely, the shit-shoed bastard.
I bet they’re not as shit as my shoes after the remains of a flare landed right at my feet on the green yesterday.
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Didn't swear or anything, no insults, I think he blocked pretty much everyone that replied to his "fraud" comment.
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Didn't swear or anything, no insults, I think he blocked pretty much everyone that replied to his "fraud" comment.
Haha! Even better. It's brief, beautiful moments like this that I wish I had a Twitter account.
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He blocked someone for replying "takes one to know one"
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He blocked someone for replying "takes one to know one"
Brilliant! He walked right into that lol
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Is "scarify" supposed to mean "sacrifice" or has joined Lerner's lexicon of love with the shunnamites?
God, when you think of some of the absolute bollocks we've had to endure in recent years.
Shunnamites, the daft lad with the built up shoes.
Gestede on a football pitch.
Goodbye to all that.
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If anyone’s interested the Judgment from a Preliminary Hearing on his Employment Tribunal Claim is available online.
He made a failed application to add a whistleblowing detriment claim to his Unfair Dismissal Claim and to add Dr Xia as an additional Respondent. The Employment Judge was very critical of his evidence in support of his application.
The Unfair Dismissal Claim itself will be heard separately.
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If anyone’s interested the Judgment from a Preliminary Hearing on his Employment Tribunal Claim is available online.
He made a failed application to add a whistleblowing detriment claim to his Unfair Dismissal Claim and to add Dr Xia as an additional Respondent. The Employment Judge was very critical of his evidence in support of his application.
The Unfair Dismissal Claim itself will be heard separately.
Link as I’m too lazy to look?
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https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribunal-decisions/mr-k-wyness-v-aston-villa-football-club-ltd-1303946-2018
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https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribunal-decisions/mr-k-wyness-v-aston-villa-football-club-ltd-1303946-2018
Cheers
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The difference between Wyness and Xia is that Wyness was 'supposedly' a football man with a wealth of experience. Tony was a rich fella with a rod-on for getting into the football ownership game but absolutely no idea how to do it, and without fully considering the difficulties of running a club from China where you have to consider not only the ever shifting rules of the footballing governmental bodies, but also those of the Chinese government (which can change on a whim). Tony is still invested in the club without any power to do any damage any more so I'm not too fussed about him.
Wyness can fuck right off into a dark corner though. He was a dinosaur.
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I called Wyness out as soon as I saw the Villa engine bollocks.
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I called Wyness out as soon as I saw the Villa engine bollocks.
I shudder every time I hear the word
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Our current set up is the first in ages that I feel confident in. One that's fit for purpose for how football is at the moment. Wyness might have been okay at Everton (though you'd argue he never found a way to take out that ceiling they hit and many of the avenues he pursued annoyed the fans) but it's not a surprise they didn't look like progressing as a club until after he left.
We've hired worse mind you but he was pretty poor all told and his behaviour since is pathetic.
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What we have now, without much fuss, appears to be what they meant by the villa engine.
With Wyness I had alarm bells from the 3 teams shite and then the idea that implementing a club ethos could be done without the senior squad made me pretty sure that he was a bullshit merchant.
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Wyness might have been okay at Everton (though you'd argue he never found a way to take out that ceiling they hit and many of the avenues he pursued annoyed the fans) but it's not a surprise they didn't look like progressing as a club until after he left.
Annoyed the fans? He wanted to move Everton out of Liverpool.
Forget the Villa Engine. My alarm bells were ringing with the names of Chris Samuelson and Jamie Banfill.
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At least it wasn't Chris Jameson.
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Chris was too busy running the Official John Terry Fan Club (Harrogate Branch) at the time.
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Daily Mail
Central to Wyness's case is his allegation that he made a series of 'protected disclosures', one in October 2017 and the other on June 4 last year, a day before he was suspended.
In a series of private preliminary hearings, the tribunal has heard that Wyness sought legal advice 'when he thought the Respondent was in danger of insolvency due to an unpaid tax demand'.
It is understood that he fell out with the Chinese former Villa owner Dr Tony Xia after the 2018 play-off final after he raised the possibility of the club going into administration.
The most recent accounts for the club's new holding company NSWE UK states that last summer it 'experienced significant liquidity problems'.
Wyness claims that Aston Villa 'breached the implied duty of trust and confidence' and that his dismissal was 'solely or principally caused' by his whistleblowing.
Legal documents seen by Sportsmail show that Aston Villa deny any such disclosures were made.
A hearing is due to start on November 4 and has been listed to last nine days, but the parties have been locked in this employment battle for over a year already.
At a private preliminary hearing in February, Wyness tried to get Xia added in as a second respondent, but this was dismissed.
He also requested that Xia be made to provide all WhatsApp chat data relevant to proceedings, but this was also dismissed.
The outline of Wyness's case says: 'The claimant alleges he made a series of protected disclosures, the first of which is said to have taken place on 10 October 2017 and the last on 4 June 2018.
'The claimant claims that his suspension by the respondent on 5 June 2018 and other conduct of the respondent around this time amounted to a breach(es) of the implied duty of trust and confidence and that this was solely or principally caused by the making of one or more of the protected disclosures..' Wyness' legal representatives declined to comment on the content of the disclosures.
Aston Villa declined to comment.
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Why on Earth would you make a specific disclosure app for documents that ought to be in your possession or control?
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I'd love to see the WhatsApp conversation.
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If I could add my true feelings about the fat pr**k I’d be banned from here and the www
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I'd love to see the WhatsApp conversation.
🔥🚨🤥👎Keith.
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https://www.avfc.co.uk/News/2019/11/01/club-statement-avfc
Aston Villa Football Club confirm that it has today agreed an out of court settlement with former CEO, Mr Keith Wyness, who had brought a claim against the Club, and its former owner Dr Tony Xia, following his departure in June 2018.
The current directors of the Club, none of whom were at the Club at the time of this dispute, accept Mr Wyness’ assertion that during this period he was seeking to act in the best interests of the Club. We wish him well for the future.
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Fair enough. Tony really was a plank wasn't he?
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The explanation of the pay out would have been nice doubt to keep some derogatory comments coming out in the proceedings. He’s still a fat prick who no doubt deserved the taxi to the motorway
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The explanation of the pay out would have been nice doubt to keep some derogatory comments coming out in the proceedings. He’s still a fat prick who no doubt deserved the taxi to the motorway
Is he though?
The current directors accept he was acting in the best interests of the club. As a director, wouldn't he have had a fiduciary duty to take us into administration if that was the only way to protect the continued existence of the club?
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They’ve signed a compromise agreement so difficult to call him. The truth probably is not black or white
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They’ve signed a compromise agreement so difficult to call him. The truth probably is not black or white
They’re called Settlement Agreements now. The government thought that the use of the word ‘compromise’ put people off settling if they didn’t want to be seen to be ‘compromising’, which is obviously cobblers and not my experience of the dozens of Compromise Agreements I have advised on.
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Tribunal was due to start on Monday so it was the usual last minute deal.
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Richard at the end of the day it’s obviously suited both parties
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Richard at the end of the day it’s obviously suited both parties
It was listed for 9 days, so it would’ve cost a fortune (more than it no doubt already has) in legal costs and it wouldn’t have been ideal to air this in public. The current regime have effectively said it’s nothing to do with them, so it’s a commercial decision. I rather got the impression we might have been on a sticky wicket in terms of liability.
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The explanation of the pay out would have been nice doubt to keep some derogatory comments coming out in the proceedings. He’s still a fat prick who no doubt deserved the taxi to the motorway
Is he though?
The current directors accept he was acting in the best interests of the club. As a director, wouldn't he have had a fiduciary duty to take us into administration if that was the only way to protect the continued existence of the club?
I'm not a fan of his, but that fiduciary duty thing does look like we were on the hook for a payout, given that it's kind of one of the prime responsibilities of someone in his position.
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The explanation of the pay out would have been nice doubt to keep some derogatory comments coming out in the proceedings. He’s still a fat prick who no doubt deserved the taxi to the motorway
Is he though?
The current directors accept he was acting in the best interests of the club. As a director, wouldn't he have had a fiduciary duty to take us into administration if that was the only way to protect the continued existence of the club?
Is the general consensus. A few people who know a few things say he's not entirely the bad guy.
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The explanation of the pay out would have been nice doubt to keep some derogatory comments coming out in the proceedings. He’s still a fat prick who no doubt deserved the taxi to the motorway
Is he though?
The current directors accept he was acting in the best interests of the club. As a director, wouldn't he have had a fiduciary duty to take us into administration if that was the only way to protect the continued existence of the club?
Is the general consensus. A few people who know a few things say he's not entirely the bad guy.
No, the bad guy is clearly the shitty shoed shyster, but for some he's still ok because he did some funny tweets.
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Not totally the bad guy if he was carrying out his duties as a company officer, he had no choice in that. He is still a no-mark for having faith in Bruce and his "methods" which, together with Tone's dodgy cashflow, is what brought us to the brink of going out of business.
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Will the accounts, in time, show how much we paid him?
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The explanation of the pay out would have been nice doubt to keep some derogatory comments coming out in the proceedings. He’s still a fat prick who no doubt deserved the taxi to the motorway
Is he though?
The current directors accept he was acting in the best interests of the club. As a director, wouldn't he have had a fiduciary duty to take us into administration if that was the only way to protect the continued existence of the club?
Is the general consensus. A few people who know a few things say he's not entirely the bad guy.
I have to admit that I found Wyness very impressive in the interviews he gave.
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He would almost certainly have won. Whether you like the bloke or not, when a company can't pay its bills a director is legally obliged to act in its best interests. The fact that shit-shoed arse Xia is currently on the run from the law in China tells you all you need to know about him. Tribunals are always extremely keen to protect whistle-blowers and people who they think have tried to do the right thing when people higher up the food chain haven't.
I imagine that when the new owners bought the company, there would have been warranties in place that would mean that Xia should pay for contingent liabilities like this, but as he's clearly not got a pot to piss in, they'll have taken the pragmatic decision to cut their losses and draw a line under things.
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He would almost certainly have won. Whether you like the bloke or not, when a company can't pay its bills a director is legally obliged to act in its best interests. The fact that shit-shoed arse Xia is currently on the run from the law in China tells you all you need to know about him. Tribunals are always extremely keen to protect whistle-blowers and people who they think have tried to do the right thing when people higher up the food chain haven't.
I imagine that when the new owners bought the company, there would have been warranties in place that would mean that Xia should pay for contingent liabilities like this, but as he's clearly not got a pot to piss in, they'll have taken the pragmatic decision to cut their losses and draw a line under things.
Indeed.
Yet some people still make excuses for the Uber-bothering twat.
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Uber bothering?
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Uber bothering?
Used to arrive at training ground in an Uber
Like billionaires do.
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Uber bothering?
Used to arrive at training ground in an Uber
Like billionaires do.
At this point it wouldn't surprise me if he'd worked as an Uber driver on non match days.
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He had the shoes for it.
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I have a mental picture of Wyness driving an Uber that looks like the bloke driving the car in The Incredibles
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He would almost certainly have won. Whether you like the bloke or not, when a company can't pay its bills a director is legally obliged to act in its best interests. The fact that shit-shoed arse Xia is currently on the run from the law in China tells you all you need to know about him. Tribunals are always extremely keen to protect whistle-blowers and people who they think have tried to do the right thing when people higher up the food chain haven't.
I imagine that when the new owners bought the company, there would have been warranties in place that would mean that Xia should pay for contingent liabilities like this, but as he's clearly not got a pot to piss in, they'll have taken the pragmatic decision to cut their losses and draw a line under things.
AS CEO surely Wyness would have fully known our financial situation and the impact of failing to win promotion months before? It's not like our revenue was going to change from the close of the January transfer window, yet he acts like the man that saved us. For me, both he and Xia were equally responsible and it didn't surprise me in the slightest that Wyness was accused of trying to sell the club on the cheap for a few silver coins given the dodgy company he keeps.
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He would almost certainly have won. Whether you like the bloke or not, when a company can't pay its bills a director is legally obliged to act in its best interests. The fact that shit-shoed arse Xia is currently on the run from the law in China tells you all you need to know about him. Tribunals are always extremely keen to protect whistle-blowers and people who they think have tried to do the right thing when people higher up the food chain haven't.
I imagine that when the new owners bought the company, there would have been warranties in place that would mean that Xia should pay for contingent liabilities like this, but as he's clearly not got a pot to piss in, they'll have taken the pragmatic decision to cut their losses and draw a line under things.
AS CEO surely Wyness would have fully known our financial situation and the impact of failing to win promotion months before? It's not like our revenue was going to change from the close of the January transfer window, yet he acts like the man that saved us. For me, both he and Xia were equally responsible and it didn't surprise me in the slightest that Wyness was accused of trying to sell the club on the cheap for a few silver coins given the dodgy company he keeps.
I agree with this although I do place Xia more culpable.
If there is any truth in him touting the club around at a knockdown price (whilst ensuring he keeps hold of his position) then he's just as bad as Xia. Furthermore, there was clearly no "plan B" as he continually referenced other than to get down on our knees and pray for a miracle - A miracle that did indeed transpire.
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He would almost certainly have won. Whether you like the bloke or not, when a company can't pay its bills a director is legally obliged to act in its best interests. The fact that shit-shoed arse Xia is currently on the run from the law in China tells you all you need to know about him. Tribunals are always extremely keen to protect whistle-blowers and people who they think have tried to do the right thing when people higher up the food chain haven't.
I imagine that when the new owners bought the company, there would have been warranties in place that would mean that Xia should pay for contingent liabilities like this, but as he's clearly not got a pot to piss in, they'll have taken the pragmatic decision to cut their losses and draw a line under things.
AS CEO surely Wyness would have fully known our financial situation and the impact of failing to win promotion months before? It's not like our revenue was going to change from the close of the January transfer window, yet he acts like the man that saved us. For me, both he and Xia were equally responsible and it didn't surprise me in the slightest that Wyness was accused of trying to sell the club on the cheap for a few silver coins given the dodgy company he keeps.
Sorry I don't agree with this. If Xia had promised that money would be available, abd the audited accounts were signed off as a going concern on that basis, then that would satisfy most CEOs. There aren't many profitable football teams, and most would struggle if a cash source they were relying on was suddenly turned off..
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He would almost certainly have won. Whether you like the bloke or not, when a company can't pay its bills a director is legally obliged to act in its best interests. The fact that shit-shoed arse Xia is currently on the run from the law in China tells you all you need to know about him. Tribunals are always extremely keen to protect whistle-blowers and people who they think have tried to do the right thing when people higher up the food chain haven't.
I imagine that when the new owners bought the company, there would have been warranties in place that would mean that Xia should pay for contingent liabilities like this, but as he's clearly not got a pot to piss in, they'll have taken the pragmatic decision to cut their losses and draw a line under things.
AS CEO surely Wyness would have fully known our financial situation and the impact of failing to win promotion months before? It's not like our revenue was going to change from the close of the January transfer window, yet he acts like the man that saved us. For me, both he and Xia were equally responsible and it didn't surprise me in the slightest that Wyness was accused of trying to sell the club on the cheap for a few silver coins given the dodgy company he keeps.
Sorry I don't agree with this. If Xia had promised that money would be available, abd the audited accounts were signed off as a going concern on that basis, then that would satisfy most CEOs. There aren't many profitable football teams, and most would struggle if a cash source they were relying on was suddenly turned off..
Did Xia promise more funds? Any idea when? Let's assume for a minute he did, when would be the ideal time to have those funds in place, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be the end of May.
For me, they're both chancers. As we now know, Xia was a front man backed by unknowns in China. Wyness was put in place by some extremely dodgy 'middle men'. I doubt they'll be a queue of clubs looking to appoint him as their new CEO.
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Out of interest how do you know the unknowns were Chinese?
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They were well within budget and everything was fine until the money stopped coming from China. Apparently.
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Out of interest how do you know the unknowns were Chinese?
It was a Beijing court that issued the arrest warrant, put up wanted posters and offered a reward. I doubt very much they'd be so determined to find him if the debtors weren't Chinese.
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Out of interest how do you know the unknowns were Chinese?
It was a Beijing court that issued the arrest warrant, put up wanted posters and offered a reward. I doubt very much they'd be so determined to find him if the debtors weren't Chinese.
The court stuff was a hoax, wasn't it?
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Did Xia promise more funds? Any idea when? Let's assume for a minute he did, when would be the ideal time to have those funds in place, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be the end of May.
For me, they're both chancers. As we now know, Xia was a front man backed by unknowns in China. Wyness was put in place by some extremely dodgy 'middle men'. I doubt they'll be a queue of clubs looking to appoint him as their new CEO.
He would have had to have shown the auditors at the very least that the club was a going concern for a minimum period of 12 months from the date the accounts were signed. Obviously without working there there's no way of knowing the exact moment the cash problems became evident, but it all appeared to happen very quickly. If Xia had signed off as the cashflow being OK, and had done so in the past with it always coming through (as it must have done when we'd bought the likes of McCormack and Kodjia) then why would Wyness question that?
Everything is going well at the moment, but even a professional like Purslow will have to take on a certain amount of trust that funds will continue to be made available. Obviously there's a lot more available information about Edens and Sawiris, but if they decided they didn't want to support the club any longer, we'd be in exactly the same position as previously.
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Out of interest how do you know the unknowns were Chinese?
It was a Beijing court that issued the arrest warrant, put up wanted posters and offered a reward. I doubt very much they'd be so determined to find him if the debtors weren't Chinese.
The court stuff was a hoax, wasn't it?
Was it, I thought Risso and CL picked up the reward money?
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Did Xia promise more funds? Any idea when? Let's assume for a minute he did, when would be the ideal time to have those funds in place, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be the end of May.
For me, they're both chancers. As we now know, Xia was a front man backed by unknowns in China. Wyness was put in place by some extremely dodgy 'middle men'. I doubt they'll be a queue of clubs looking to appoint him as their new CEO.
He would have had to have shown the auditors at the very least that the club was a going concern for a minimum period of 12 months from the date the accounts were signed. Obviously without working there there's no way of knowing the exact moment the cash problems became evident, but it all appeared to happen very quickly. If Xia had signed off as the cashflow being OK, and had done so in the past with it always coming through (as it must have done when we'd bought the likes of McCormack and Kodjia) then why would Wyness question that?
I guess we'll never know but Wyness was aware we'd spent all our future parachute payments, the costs are pretty much written in stone. McCormack and Kodjia were summer signings. In the January window we only brought in Axel and Grabban on loan. Maybe that was a the first sign we were struggling. As I said, I guess we'll never know.
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From what I remember something like £5m a month was being paid to us by Xia (via his backers you'd assume now) those payments stopped and that's what fucked us as without those payments we couldn't pay everything.
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It seemed to me that plan A was hoping we were promoted to the Premier league and plan B was just a blank sheet of paper. Apart from saying 'Plan B - any ideas?' at the top.
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I never quite warmed to Wyness, the whole 1 team for promotion, one to stay up and a 3rd to progress thing along with the fact that we setup a playing structure at all levels except the first team made me think he was full of shit. Lets also not forget that he happily oversaw a transfer strategy that involved almost no planning for the future, either in how those players would fit into the squad for the coming season or what their longer term value to the club would be. I get that, on a purely legal stance, paying him off was sensible, but I don't like the fact that he took a fortune out of the club only to leave us in a complete mess and get another pay off when he was sacked for his part in it.
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I never quite warmed to Wyness, the whole 1 team for promotion, one to stay up and a 3rd to progress thing along with the fact that we setup a playing structure at all levels except the first team made me think he was full of shit. Lets also not forget that he happily oversaw a transfer strategy that involved almost no planning for the future, either in how those players would fit into the squad for the coming season or what their longer term value to the club would be. I get that, on a purely legal stance, paying him off was sensible, but I don't like the fact that he took a fortune out of the club only to leave us in a complete mess and get another pay off when he was sacked for his part in it.
I'm not defending him, because he was mostly a fat plonker, but the way Xia handled things made it an absolute certainty that Wyness would get a pay out. A similar thing happened at one of the group companies where I used to work on there IOM. They sacked somebody (who was on about £40K a year) who made a protected disclosure, and ended up having to pay him the thick end of a million quid in damages.
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I never quite warmed to Wyness, the whole 1 team for promotion, one to stay up and a 3rd to progress thing along with the fact that we setup a playing structure at all levels except the first team made me think he was full of shit. Lets also not forget that he happily oversaw a transfer strategy that involved almost no planning for the future, either in how those players would fit into the squad for the coming season or what their longer term value to the club would be. I get that, on a purely legal stance, paying him off was sensible, but I don't like the fact that he took a fortune out of the club only to leave us in a complete mess and get another pay off when he was sacked for his part in it.
No industry rewards ineptitude as much as football.
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Out of interest how do you know the unknowns were Chinese?
It was a Beijing court that issued the arrest warrant, put up wanted posters and offered a reward. I doubt very much they'd be so determined to find him if the debtors weren't Chinese.
The court stuff was a hoax, wasn't it?
Was it, I thought Risso and CL picked up the reward money?
Risso spent most of his on women and beer, wasted the rest.
Apparently on Luke gear and swimming shorts :(
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From what I remember something like £5m a month was being paid to us by Xia (via his backers you'd assume now) those payments stopped and that's what fucked us as without those payments we couldn't pay everything.
Is how I remember it. He was somehow finding a £5m a month working capital gap. And just before the play off final the money didn’t arrive. Week after they told the taxman they couldn’t pay up.
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The explanation of the pay out would have been nice doubt to keep some derogatory comments coming out in the proceedings. He’s still a fat prick who no doubt deserved the taxi to the motorway
Is he though?
The current directors accept he was acting in the best interests of the club. As a director, wouldn't he have had a fiduciary duty to take us into administration if that was the only way to protect the continued existence of the club?
Is the general consensus. A few people who know a few things say he's not entirely the bad guy.
Is that an understatement or damning him with faint praise?
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It seemed to me that plan A was hoping we were promoted to the Premier league and plan B was just a blank sheet of paper. Apart from saying 'Plan B - any ideas?' at the top.
Pretty much. It's clear (from what was actually said at the RDM press conference which Wyness was also at) that we had two years to get up and when we didn't it would be a barren wasteland of living hand to mouth on day to day basis.
Thankfully Wes and Nas turned up otherwise we'd have had the season Stoke are having now. Incredibly even when we were on the verge of administration people were still demanding we compete for promotion that next season, I assume that was just people so desperate to see Steve Bruce sacked you start demanding unrealistic things.
Frightening to think how low we'd have finished without any of McGinn, Tammy or Mings and Jack being sold on. It's all worked out o.k for a change.
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I never quite warmed to Wyness, the whole 1 team for promotion, one to stay up and a 3rd to progress thing along with the fact that we setup a playing structure at all levels except the first team made me think he was full of shit. Lets also not forget that he happily oversaw a transfer strategy that involved almost no planning for the future, either in how those players would fit into the squad for the coming season or what their longer term value to the club would be. I get that, on a purely legal stance, paying him off was sensible, but I don't like the fact that he took a fortune out of the club only to leave us in a complete mess and get another pay off when he was sacked for his part in it.
Haven't we done that anyway though? 1 team to get up (Tammy, Axel, Adomah, Jedinak, Whelan), one team to stay up (all the signings we've made plus likes of AEM and Taylor still regularly seeing action). Eventually to compete back towards top 6 those will have to be moved on and we'll have to make better signings in the final third.
The scattergun approach was pretty much down to Steve Bruce as that's just how he does things. I'd also say at championship level it's pretty rare to see a club who don't make 2-3 loan signings. West Brom's two best players are loan signings and Leeds signed Neketih from Arsenal and some young CB on season long loans, it's just how the majority do it in the championship.
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I never quite warmed to Wyness, the whole 1 team for promotion, one to stay up and a 3rd to progress thing along with the fact that we setup a playing structure at all levels except the first team made me think he was full of shit. Lets also not forget that he happily oversaw a transfer strategy that involved almost no planning for the future, either in how those players would fit into the squad for the coming season or what their longer term value to the club would be. I get that, on a purely legal stance, paying him off was sensible, but I don't like the fact that he took a fortune out of the club only to leave us in a complete mess and get another pay off when he was sacked for his part in it.
Haven't we done that anyway though? 1 team to get up (Tammy, Axel, Adomah, Jedinak, Whelan), one team to stay up (all the signings we've made plus likes of AEM and Taylor still regularly seeing action). Eventually to compete back towards top 6 those will have to be moved on and we'll have to make better signings in the final third.
The scattergun approach was pretty much down to Steve Bruce as that's just how he does things. I'd also say at championship level it's pretty rare to see a club who don't make 2-3 loan signings. West Brom's two best players are loan signings and Leeds signed Neketih from Arsenal and some young CB on season long loans, it's just how the majority do it in the championship.
Well no, not really. We had to sign half a squad in the summer because of the strategy under xia/wyness/bruce, I doubt it's something we want to do regularly but the team changing over time is just normal so is expected.
However my take on what he was saying was more about style and strategy, we'd play a way to get promoted, and sign players to do it, then we'd change to stay up, and sign players for that and then after a couple of seasons we'd move on to the style we actually wanted all along. The way he segregated the first team off from the villa engine thing showed it. For me it came over as an excuse to use when people were critical of how we played, "we're shit to watch now but once we've been in the premier league for a few seasons we'll change, trust us".
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From The Athletic (only parts relevant to us)
Eight years later, he returned to football with Aston Villa after Xia took control following their relegation from the Premier League.
“Tony wanted me as CEO. I didn’t expect to be coming into that role,” he says. “The staff were completely demoralised and we had a lot of people who we had to let go. I thought, ‘Here we go again. I’m back at the real end of football’.”
At the start, Xia was very hands-on with transfers. He told Wyness to get the early deals done for Ross McCormack and Mile Jedinak, for example, as Villa were rebuilding in the Championship. Big wages were handed out and there was a push to make Villa stylish again.
One move they couldn’t get over the line was Hull City’s £14 million-rated striker Abel Hernandez, represented by agent Mino Raiola at the time. The financial demands to get Hernandez — including the agent fee and the wages were too much for Villa — and would have made him the highest-paid player at the club.
It was also Xia’s decision to appoint Roberto Di Matteo and then sack him after just 12 games that season, although it was Wyness who had to break the news to the Italian, who had taken Villa’s neighbours West Bromwich Albion up from the Championship in 2010 and led Chelsea to Champions League final glory in 2012.
“Tony had made his mind up and was in a rush to do things and get success,” Wyness says.
“Over in China, he told me his decision about Roberto in the half-time interval at Preston (when Villa were losing 2-0, the game’s final score), then it was down to me to do it.”
He recalls the unpleasant exchange that had to be done there and then over the phone from inside an office at Preston’s Deepdale stadium, rather than face-to-face.
“Roberto didn’t take it very well. It was a shouting match,” says Wyness. “He said that he hadn’t been given enough time and that he didn’t get the players he wanted in.”
Still, Villa had to find a way to move forward and, after pulling together a 50-page report on potential new managers, the shortlist was whittled down to three.
Moyes had turned down the offer of a 10-year contract as he insisted he wasn’t prepared to drop down into the second tier of English football. He would end up relegated from the Premier League that season with Sunderland. Burnley’s Sean Dyche and David Wagner of Huddersfield Town were also both considered, but Steve Bruce was viewed as the outstanding candidate despite having played for and later managed Villa’s arch-rivals Birmingham City.
“I tried to give Steve as much support as I could,” Wyness says.
Villa were competitive with transfers, bringing in striker Scott Hogan for £12 million in January 2017 and then former England captain and centre-back John Terry from Chelsea as a free agent the following summer.
But after missing out on promotion in the 2018 Championship play-off final, Bruce was left working under difficult circumstances. The money had dried up from Xia and the stack of bills was growing. Promotion to the Premier League that day might have solved the issues, but a missed tax bill soon left the club facing a winding-up order and administration looked inevitable. Owner and CEO disagreed over the way the situation could be resolved and Xia ended up suspending Wyness.
Villa’s current owners Nassef Sawiris and Wes Edens came in to clear up the mess and also Wyness’ name, as he was prepared to sue for unfair dismissal.
To this day, there are glimpses of hurt. He says: “The way the story came out with Villa was as if I had committed fraud, which was so wrong. It was important for my name to be cleared.”
For a short period, there were no such issues at Villa. While Xia called the shots, the money would always arrive. It is fair to say he wanted the best for the club, even if he wasn’t quite sure how to deliver it.
Xia’s ownership period was strange, reflected mainly in presentations to the first team that were confusing, as ex-captain James Chester explained to The Athletic earlier this year.
Admittedly, some of the businessman’s hands-on ways were welcomed, but other occasions created serious division.
Take, for example, a game at Sheffield Wednesday in February 2018.
At half-time, Villa were 2-1 down and Xia wanted a message to be delivered to Bruce in the dressing room. Xia was underwhelmed by the performance of midfielder Glenn Whelan and requested that he be substituted. Wyness blocked it, Villa ended up winning 4-2 — and Whelan scored against his former club to spark the fightback.
There were happier times, of course, and staff in the Villa Park offices describe Wyness as an engaging and friendly boss who always adopted an open-door policy. That included a deadline-day announcement of Lewis Grabban in January 2018, with the CEO asking Amazon virtual assistant Alexa who the Bournemouth striker played for.
Wyness was tasked with the job of rejuvenating a stale and depressed workforce still coming to terms with Villa as a Championship club after 28 years in the top division. He encouraged employees to “not be in the stands, and get on the pitch of life”.
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Blimey, Tony...
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A ten year contract for David Moyes. Jesus fucking Christ.
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A ten year contract for David Moyes. Jesus fucking Christ.
And the daft bastard turned it down!
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Certainly trumps the 6 year renewal Pardew got at Newcky.
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A ten year contract for David Moyes. Jesus fucking Christ.
And the daft bastard turned it down!
Just proves what an arrogant smug twat he is. So glad we never appointed him at any stage with the possible exception of when McLeish was appointed.
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Jeeez, like a satire-comedy on how to own / run a club (think "In the thick of It").
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The message to Bruce at Half Time would’ve been comedy gold has it got through.
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Jeeez, like a satire-comedy on how to own / run a club (think "In the thick of It").
The shudder that goes through you when you think of what would have happened if we'd beaten Fulham.......
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Jeeez, like a satire-comedy on how to own / run a club (think "In the thick of It").
The shudder that goes through you when you think of what would have happened if we'd beaten Fulham.......
Probs our most important result in the last decade
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That or the Preston draw.
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That or the Preston draw.
then in a Close 3rd
the Whelan penalty
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Villa beat Liverpool 7-2, sit second in the league and Wyness agrees to do an interview. I've got a small mountain of salt here. I stopped believing a word he said after the first five words. Wyness was put in the Villa job by his two rather dodgy mates who set up the Villa deal. Forget their names but they were linked to Wyness if memory serves.
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Samuelson and Banfill.
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Villa beat Liverpool 7-2, sit second in the league and Wyness agrees to do an interview. I've got a small mountain of salt here. I stopped believing a word he said after the first five words. Wyness was put in the Villa job by his two rather dodgy mates who set up the Villa deal. Forget their names but they were linked to Wyness if memory serves.
VILLA ENGINE , enough said
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Samuelson and Banfill.
Landfill.
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Can you imagine another 6 years of Moyes to look forward to? Or more likely, six years of paying his wages!
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Just another Bullshitter in a long line of them we have had over the years
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Article pretty much tells us f all. Other than they have an alexa.
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A ten year contract for David Moyes. Jesus fucking Christ.
what a fucking miserable thought that is.
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Article pretty much tells us f all. Other than they have an alexa.
Bought for £12m and given £40k a week, probably.
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Whatever about wyness, but its absolutely clear that xia was the worst owner that we've ever had. I find it remarkable that there's still the odd person willing to defend him.
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I don’t think buying Abel Hernandez as our highest paid player would have helped matters either.
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Whatever about wyness, but its absolutely clear that xia was the worst owner that we've ever had. I find it remarkable that there's still the odd person willing to defend him.
Sacking Di Matteo over the phone when Wyness was in the same building was a bit of a shitty thing to do as well, even if it was the right decision.
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Whatever about wyness, but its absolutely clear that xia was the worst owner that we've ever had. I find it remarkable that there's still the odd person willing to defend him.
I wouldn’t defend him. I just think Lerner by the end was way worse. Not just his gross mismanagement of the club that ultimately led to relegation but who he ultimately sold us on to. That’s all on him. Relegation is what fucked us up. Xia just piled on. And Xia for me also comes above Lerner because by some miracle he sold us to two proper minted blokes. I don’t know how he did it, but he did.
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No way was Randy worse. He wrote off a shit load of his own money when he sold us. Whereas this guy never had any of his own money and nearly bankrupted us in the process. I’d say out of two ultimately bad owners the Uber passenger was way worse.
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Yeah, Randy might have got us relegated, but we almost ceased to exist under xia.
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Yeah, Randy might have got us relegated, but we almost ceased to exist under xia.
IMO they are linked. Not that we all need to go down this path again but he willfully and naively allowed the spending that in part led to him cutting back so massively. That then led to our downward spiral as a club ending in relegation. He then sells to Xia who as it turned out wasn’t the maverick minted owner we all hoped he’d be. Xia then pumps all the parachute money on getting back up and that immense failure almost finished us off. But as I said by some miracle he hooks up with NSWE and the rest is history.
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Giving Xia credit for Edens and Swaris is like giving a drowning man credit for allowing somebody to give him the kiss of life.
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So, by my reckoning Doug was a good owner because he sold to Randy who must have been a good owner because he sold to Xia who must have been a good owner because he sold to NSWE.
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So, by my reckoning Doug was a good owner because he sold to Randy who must have been a good owner because he sold to Xia who must have been a good owner because he sold to NSWE.
With the exception (so far) of our current group, who called any of them good owners?
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Giving Xia credit for Edens and Swaris is like giving a drowning man credit for allowing somebody to give him the kiss of life.
He still had to make the sale to them. He got that bit right however it came about. Lerner in that sense got that bit very wrong and he had all kinds of “professionals” helping him out. Who was that bloke he used who couldn’t believe the vision of Xia and advocated Lerner sell to him?
So is it that much different to how Man City fans might view Thaksin Shinawatra who somehow sold to the richest family in the galaxy before popping into a Thai prison?
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The only thing any seller of a football club cares about is "has the buyer got the funds to complete the deal?" Anybody thinking that they care about passing the club onto a suitable custodian is a little bit naive.
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The only thing any seller of a football club cares about is "has the buyer got the funds to complete the deal?" Anybody thinking that they care about passing the club onto a suitable custodian is a little bit naive.
Dr Tony is the exception. Aston Villa, at the time, was a very attractive business opportunity.
I bet he had dozens of offers to consider.
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The only thing any seller of a football club cares about is "has the buyer got the funds to complete the deal?" Anybody thinking that they care about passing the club onto a suitable custodian is a little bit naive.
Dr Tony is the exception. Aston Villa, at the time, was a very attractive business opportunity.
I bet he had dozens of offers to consider.
You think so? When he sold the club it was on it's last legs, hugely in debt, loads out the tax man with still a lot of value contracts on the books on players who weren't worth it. There was no guarantee at all things would turn out the way they did.
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Come on TV! It was tongue in cheek.
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The only thing any seller of a football club cares about is "has the buyer got the funds to complete the deal?" Anybody thinking that they care about passing the club onto a suitable custodian is a little bit naive.
I agree and it's not like Lerner was even involved much in the sale process given Hollis was appointed chairman purely to sell the club given his business and I presume far east links which is how they came across Xia. He was a de facto administrator without us going into admin.
Would love to know how Xia came onto the radar but given Hollis is still on boards of directors at various insitutions I imagine he dosen't want to do any interviews until in his retirement.
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Come on TV! It was tongue in cheek.
sorry mate. Clearly went over my head :)
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Come on TV! It was tongue in cheek.
sorry mate. Clearly went over my head :)
Or I'm not very funny!
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The only thing any seller of a football club cares about is "has the buyer got the funds to complete the deal?" Anybody thinking that they care about passing the club onto a suitable custodian is a little bit naive.
Well, I think that's true in part. I'd be inclined to believe Doug wouldn't have sold the club to Xia, for example. But in the current scheme of things - 100% ownership of the club with someone who has no prior ties - then it's got to be treated as a business decision, and as you'd said there's going to be no consideration behind selling the club other than getting the best price the person can for it.
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The only thing any seller of a football club cares about is "has the buyer got the funds to complete the deal?" Anybody thinking that they care about passing the club onto a suitable custodian is a little bit naive.
Well, I think that's true in part. I'd be inclined to believe Doug wouldn't have sold the club to Xia, for example. But in the current scheme of things - 100% ownership of the club with someone who has no prior ties - then it's got to be treated as a business decision, and as you'd said there's going to be no consideration behind selling the club other than getting the best price the person can for it.
Of course Doug would have sold to Xia, why wouldn't he?
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Doug would have sold to anyone, but you can also guarantee that if he'd been in any fit state, he would have been holding press conferences in 2018 to say he wouldn't have sold to Xia.
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The only thing any seller of a football club cares about is "has the buyer got the funds to complete the deal?" Anybody thinking that they care about passing the club onto a suitable custodian is a little bit naive.
Well, I think that's true in part. I'd be inclined to believe Doug wouldn't have sold the club to Xia, for example. But in the current scheme of things - 100% ownership of the club with someone who has no prior ties - then it's got to be treated as a business decision, and as you'd said there's going to be no consideration behind selling the club other than getting the best price the person can for it.
Of course Doug would have sold to Xia, why wouldn't he?
There were a few offers in summer 2006 weren't they? Hicks and Gillett who later took Liverpool to within a day of administration were certainly in talks and can remember that consortium who wanted Sven Goran Eriksson as manager.
He thought Lerner would be the best option and in the early seasons it was very much the right choice. In any case it's not like Ellis was ringing up people trying to flog us, think we appointed Rothschild to conduct the sale.
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The only thing any seller of a football club cares about is "has the buyer got the funds to complete the deal?" Anybody thinking that they care about passing the club onto a suitable custodian is a little bit naive.
Well, I think that's true in part. I'd be inclined to believe Doug wouldn't have sold the club to Xia, for example. But in the current scheme of things - 100% ownership of the club with someone who has no prior ties - then it's got to be treated as a business decision, and as you'd said there's going to be no consideration behind selling the club other than getting the best price the person can for it.
Of course Doug would have sold to Xia, why wouldn't he?
There were a few offers in summer 2006 weren't they? Hicks and Gillett who later took Liverpool to within a day of administration were certainly in talks and can remember that consortium who wanted Sven Goran Eriksson as manager.
He thought Lerner would be the best option and in the early seasons it was very much the right choice. In any case it's not like Ellis was ringing up people trying to flog us, think we appointed Rothschild to conduct the sale.
How much of that was down to Lerner being willing to pander to his ego and name him president emeritus?
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Not much i'd imagine, Lerner had the money so Ellis sold to him.
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From what I remember of the time, there was a lot of speculation but Lerner was the only one who put in a firm offer.
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From what I remember of the time, there was a lot of speculation but Lerner was the only one who put in a firm offer.
That's correct. At the end of day it boils down to who can afford the asking price, and then who can get the funds together with the least amount of fuss.
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Come on TV! It was tongue in cheek.
sorry mate. Clearly went over my head :)
Or I'm not very funny!
Or both ;D
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President Emeritus...give me strength. And the Alex Ferguson endorsed McLeish appointment... How meek, naive and bone-headed Lerner could be.
And taken to the cleaners by that bullied kid at school who grew up to be the biggest shithouse of all, Martin O' Neill.
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President Emeritus was a harmless gesture towards someone who had helped him. It was good PR at a time when he was a master at it.
The Ferguson letter was a daft thing to say at a time when he was good at that as well.
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President Emeritus...give me strength. And the Alex Ferguson endorsed McLeish appointment... How meek, naive and bone-headed Lerner could be.
And taken to the cleaners by that bullied kid at school who grew up to be the biggest shithouse of all, Martin O' Neill.
That public jizzfest re the Fergie letter: The initial McLeish decision was bad enough. But when all that came out I knew we'd grossly overestimated Randolph's critical faculties.
The absolute shame of it.
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The Fergie letter. Jeeps I'd try to wipe that from my memory.
Dear Randy please continue to give us 6 points every season. Here's how.
Fergie's managerial accolytes
McGee
Black
Bruce
OGS
McLeish
Hughes
Keane
Robson
Phil Neville, and Gary too
Ince
It's a largely unimpressive list. A few good seasons spread thinly over 100 years+ of management
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From what I remember of the time, there was a lot of speculation but Lerner was the only one who put in a firm offer.
True but there were discussions with others. Was the story about one of the interested parties going into a meeting and seeing a Cleveland Browns helmet had been left on table and knew they were onto a loser.
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That was Gillette and the other one. Who ended up nearly bankrupting Liverpool.
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I hope nobody has just eaten:
""That was a difficult and uncomfortable period. Paul and I felt that, above all, the club needed stability. We needed a manager who would understand Villa and could bring credibility and experience to the dressing room and had chemistry with us and trust in our approach. We researched and debated and discussed probably two dozen odd managers from all over until we came to feel that, despite Alex's last post, he met the criteria. Not only is he affable and optimistic, well-liked and certainly well-respected among peers and players alike, but he fit our plan. He fit our feeling that a modern manager needs to balance the hysterical urgency to win and win quickly with the equally crucial need to not squander the work of our academy."
Did the reaction of some supporters make him question this decision at any stage? "It certainly raised the stakes but, if we are right in terms of the fundamentals, then over time Alex will do as he's always done and that is make Villa better," he insists. "What Paul and I knew was that he had the right ingredients. With some good luck, and his trademark hard work and commitment, we felt our chances would be good. We felt his strengths simply outweighed any concerns. When you spend time with Alex, a lot of the sensitivities go away very quickly. Time with Alex is not only engaging, it is compelling. He's pure football. That, in the end, is what you want.
"Sir Alex Ferguson wrote to me after the appointment, a proper letter, talking about his feelings about Alex. It was something you don't easily forget and it's now in a safe deposit box. Given what Sir Alex Ferguson means to the game of football, I don't think you could get many things that you would be more proud of, or reflect better on Alex McLeish."
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I haven't eaten, yet I still vomited something from several weeks ago. Jesus fucking Christ. There are salesman making phone calls about "accidents" that would do a better job. Fucking eejits.
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Are they quotes from Randy? Don't recall him talking publicly at length ever.
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The letter thing is pretty bad, but this is brilliant:
"if we are right in terms of the fundamentals, then over time Alex will do as he's always done and that is make Villa better," he insists.
A manager who had just seen his team relegated.
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The letter thing is pretty bad, but this is brilliant:
"if we are right in terms of the fundamentals, then over time Alex will do as he's always done and that is make Villa better," he insists.
A manager who had just seen his team relegated.
Where were the quotes from?
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I hope nobody has just eaten:
""That was a difficult and uncomfortable period. Paul and I felt that, above all, the club needed stability. We needed a manager who would understand Villa and could bring credibility and experience to the dressing room and had chemistry with us and trust in our approach. We researched and debated and discussed probably two dozen odd managers from all over until we came to feel that, despite Alex's last post, he met the criteria. Not only is he affable and optimistic, well-liked and certainly well-respected among peers and players alike, but he fit our plan. He fit our feeling that a modern manager needs to balance the hysterical urgency to win and win quickly with the equally crucial need to not squander the work of our academy."
Did the reaction of some supporters make him question this decision at any stage? "It certainly raised the stakes but, if we are right in terms of the fundamentals, then over time Alex will do as he's always done and that is make Villa better," he insists. "What Paul and I knew was that he had the right ingredients. With some good luck, and his trademark hard work and commitment, we felt our chances would be good. We felt his strengths simply outweighed any concerns. When you spend time with Alex, a lot of the sensitivities go away very quickly. Time with Alex is not only engaging, it is compelling. He's pure football. That, in the end, is what you want.
"Sir Alex Ferguson wrote to me after the appointment, a proper letter, talking about his feelings about Alex. It was something you don't easily forget and it's now in a safe deposit box. Given what Sir Alex Ferguson means to the game of football, I don't think you could get many things that you would be more proud of, or reflect better on Alex McLeish."
Wasn't so much the Machiavellian tendencies Fergie may have been employing to land us with one of his useful idiots. It was the pure Asian fanboy tone of it all.
Horrendous.
It's like we were giving up any pretence of being a big club.
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I’m still in shock after all this time that we recruited him as manager. I still remember when the news broke we were “pursuing” him that it was just some nose on the wind up and we’d all just laugh about it after. But nope, it happened. Still as it turned out not the worst manager we ever had.
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I bet my wife (then girlfriend) in 2011 that we would appoint Alex McLeish as manager, she didn't think we would.
She owes me £1 still.
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I’m still in shock after all this time that we recruited him as manager. I still remember when the news broke we were “pursuing” him that it was just some nose on the wind up and we’d all just laugh about it after. But nope, it happened. Still as it turned out not the worst manager we ever had.
Possibly not the worst manager but, for me, he was comfortably the worst managerial hire we've had since I started following the club (around 1990). We had clearly started on the downward spiral but that summer we were still a decent bet for a manager and we put him in the top 20 earners for managers in Europe so it's not like he was a cheap punt. He left us with some shit players on big money, despite not getting much to spend, did nothing to help the academy players come through and I can't recall a single good performance in the season we suffered him.
What I don't get with Fergie is how so many players from his time completely missed what made him a good manager and decided they could wing it by focusing on nothing but trying to be motivational. It's scary how many of them don't seem to put much value in coaching or tactics. I can't decide if that means he did the same and was just better at it (I don't really think this is true) or if it all happened in the background and none of the players saw enough of the picture to understand. Either way, the sack of shite that has become his 'legacy' does him no justice. That we've had to suffer 3 of the useless c**ts in the last decade goes a long way to explaining why it's been the worst decade the club has had since the 60s.
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The thing I didn't understand about the McLeish appointment was not the fact he'd been at Blues or that he'd got them relegated (although that was a headscratcher), it was that under Houllier we'd had a season of pain, but towards the end started playing some actual passing football.
Houllier then had to leave, and we tried to recruit Martinez, a manager not without his weaknesses, but all the same, known for playing passing football.
When he knocked us back, we then turned to McLeish, a manager whose style of play was the diametric opposite of what we'd gone through that painful season to start doing.
It just seemed so utterly fucking random.
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Looked at 2 dozen odd managers and the best they came up with was Alex McLeish. The mind boggles.
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I’m still in shock after all this time that we recruited him as manager. I still remember when the news broke we were “pursuing” him that it was just some nose on the wind up and we’d all just laugh about it after. But nope, it happened. Still as it turned out not the worst manager we ever had.
They massively panicked after they couldn't convince Martinez to come. McLeish was looking for a way out at SHA anyway after relegation (think Carson Yeung slagged the team off a bit after relegation) so bit he couldn't believe his luck when we came calling.
Certainly nearly a decade ago it still feels surreal it actually happened.
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The thing I didn't understand about the McLeish appointment was not the fact he'd been at Blues or that he'd got them relegated (although that was a headscratcher), it was that under Houllier we'd had a season of pain, but towards the end started playing some actual passing football.
Houllier then had to leave, and we tried to recruit Martinez, a manager not without his weaknesses, but all the same, known for playing passing football.
When he knocked us back, we then turned to McLeish, a manager whose style of play was the diametric opposite of what we'd gone through that painful season to start doing.
It just seemed so utterly fucking random.
Yep, it's as though they didn't have a fucking clue what they were doing.
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Hang on, you’re only all saying this because he managed the other lot. He was fucking brilliant.
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If I remember correctly after Steevie McClaren (the Wally with the Brolly) was turned around whilst on his way to Villa, due to fans vociferous dismay & concerns. The Club then went for Mcliesh maybe partly to say Up Yours to the fans
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I’m still in shock after all this time that we recruited him as manager. I still remember when the news broke we were “pursuing” him that it was just some nose on the wind up and we’d all just laugh about it after. But nope, it happened. Still as it turned out not the worst manager we ever had.
They massively panicked after they couldn't convince Martinez to come. McLeish was looking for a way out at SHA anyway after relegation (think Carson Yeung slagged the team off a bit after relegation) so bit he couldn't believe his luck when we came calling.
Certainly nearly a decade ago it still feels surreal it actually happened.
I can't believe it was nearly a decade ago. I remember like it was yesterday. H&V was more like a CNN rolling news channel that day. In my imagination I can see TV cameras following McLeish driving slowly from the sty to Villa Park in a white Ford Bronco.
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He was the first manager to bring anti football to villa during my time. The games were torture to watch. I can't forget seeing him punch the air after a home draw against stoke.
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IIRC he punched the air after his first game in charge, a 0-0 away to Fulham.
I was doing a course at the time it was mooted he was going to be sacked, I spent at least one hour solid on here constantly pressing refresh on the computer. I'll never forget the hope and expectation I felt when it came through he'd gone. It doesn't matter how old I get, I never learn.
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If I remember correctly after Steevie McClaren (the Wally with the Brolly) was turned around whilst on his way to Villa, due to fans vociferous dismay & concerns. The Club then went for Mcliesh maybe partly to say Up Yours to the fans
That's how I remember it ,
Randy's... fuck you, this is my club & I'll do as I please.
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It was a terrible appointment
but I'd still take Mcliesh over Bruce even now
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He was the first manager to bring anti football to villa during my time. The games were torture to watch. I can't forget seeing him punch the air after a home draw against stoke.
Whilst I don't disagree, Gregory and O'Neill came close. The difference was that they tended to win.
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He was the first manager to bring anti football to villa during my time. The games were torture to watch. I can't forget seeing him punch the air after a home draw against stoke.
Whilst I don't disagree, Gregory and O'Neill came close. The difference was that they tended to win.
I think with them it was more that they had 1 attacking plan and if it didn't work then they went to 'hang on and hope'. For McLeish and Bruce that was the tactic.
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He was the first manager to bring anti football to villa during my time. The games were torture to watch. I can't forget seeing him punch the air after a home draw against stoke.
Whilst I don't disagree, Gregory and O'Neill came close. The difference was that they tended to win.
I think with them it was more that they had 1 attacking plan and if it didn't work then they went to 'hang on and hope'. For McLeish and Bruce that was the tactic.
McLeish is the only one who would take low scoring defeats rather than try to get a goal back.
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He was the first manager to bring anti football to villa during my time. The games were torture to watch. I can't forget seeing him punch the air after a home draw against stoke.
Whilst I don't disagree, Gregory and O'Neill came close. The difference was that they tended to win.
Gregory never fucked us over out of sheer spite.
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He was the first manager to bring anti football to villa during my time. The games were torture to watch. I can't forget seeing him punch the air after a home draw against stoke.
Whilst I don't disagree, Gregory and O'Neill came close. The difference was that they tended to win.
Gregory never fucked us over out of sheer spite.
I sat through some 0-0s that felt like he had.
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He was the first manager to bring anti football to villa during my time. The games were torture to watch. I can't forget seeing him punch the air after a home draw against stoke.
Whilst I don't disagree, Gregory and O'Neill came close. The difference was that they tended to win.
Gregory never fucked us over out of sheer spite.
The money he made, sorry was on, he didn't need to.
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Fair play though, John Gregory wore lovely shoes. He was the Ying to Tony Xia's Yang.
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Did JG keep certain agents in business for the benefit of all concerned (apart from the fans)?
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He was the first manager to bring anti football to villa during my time. The games were torture to watch. I can't forget seeing him punch the air after a home draw against stoke.
Whilst I don't disagree, Gregory and O'Neill came close. The difference was that they tended to win.
Gregory never fucked us over out of sheer spite.
The money he made, sorry was on, he didn't need to.
I don't think O'Neill did it for free and, whatever Gregory's faults, he wasn't as spiteful and hateful as O'Neill.
Edit, just seen Eamonn's post... I might be unaware of some facts. I think I'd marginally take greed over spite.
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I hated John Gregory's tenure. To be fair, I was expecting us to be good back then.
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I hated John Gregory's tenure. To be fair, I was expecting us to be good back then.
It started really well, with the sort of run that Dean is on now, and then got gradually worse over the years as working for Doug wore him down. I've got lots of fond memories of that era though.
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I hated John Gregory's tenure. To be fair, I was expecting us to be good back then.
It started really well, with the sort of run that Dean is on now, and then got gradually worse over the years as working for Doug wore him down. I've got lots of fond memories of that era though.
We could have been so much better though. If the only thing you lack is ambition, it's a damning indictment.
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I have a mental block with my assessment of John Gregory. Once I read the report of him in disguise riding a borrowed motorbike going to try to tap up Benni McCarthy in the dead of night, I lost the ability to take him seriously. O'Neill styling himself as a world authoriy on James Hanratty had a similar effect.
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There have been a few WTF moments in my 50 plus years of following Villa. The Marlon F Harewood signing and the Tim shite but Dim Shortlist of one run it close but appointing McLeish has to go down as the single most insane thing the club has done in that time.
I actually laughed when it was mooted, and quietly thought "as if - even Lerner isn't dumb enough to hire the man who led Rangers to third in a two horse race and has sent even Blues fans to sleep with his anti-football". And then he went and did it.
I still think it was stupidity rather than a fuck you, and whilst I'd rather have had brolly bloke, it would have been like choosing a less painful form of torture.
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I'm still a bit annoyed that we (me included) gave him a chance once he'd been appointed. We should've torched the M54. I'd still be up for that regardless of Villa, if anyone's up for it.
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The most ill-judged idea in my Villa-following lifetime. Genuinely unfathomable. Bruce might have been a bit pants and horribly boring, but he stabilised and bought some impressive players (McGinn might be one of the best value signings ever). Tactics Tim was a huge contributor to relegation with his appalling, non-management management style, but at least he did have that cup run, kept us up and properly put Grealish in the team. McLeish was, in every sense, a total waste of time.
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There have been a few WTF moments in my 50 plus years of following Villa. The Marlon F Harewood signing and the Tim shite but Dim Shortlist of one run it close but appointing McLeish has to go down as the single most insane thing the club has done in that time.
I actually laughed when it was mooted, and quietly thought "as if - even Lerner isn't dumb enough to hire the man who led Rangers to third in a two horse race and has sent even Blues fans to sleep with his anti-football". And then he went and did it.
I still think it was stupidity rather than a fuck you, and whilst I'd rather have had brolly bloke, it would have been like choosing a less painful form of torture.
We're obviously of similar vintage, kt, and I agree with your observations; although Doug putting Graham Turner to the slaughter by bringing him in seemed pretty bizarre.
I hated the TSM appointment because it was so blatantly idiotic; I hated the DimTim appointment because it was so obviously dimwitted.
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To this day, the mere mention of Gregory's name near boils Julian Joachim's piss.
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The most ill-judged idea in my Villa-following lifetime. Genuinely unfathomable. Bruce might have been a bit pants and horribly boring, but he stabilised and bought some impressive players (McGinn might be one of the best value signings ever). Tactics Tim was a huge contributor to relegation with his appalling, non-management management style, but at least he did have that cup run, kept us up and properly put Grealish in the team. McLeish was, in every sense, a total waste of time.
Starting games with 6 or 7 defenders on the pitch. At least Gareth Southgate seemed to be paying attention.
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At least Lerner felt romantically nourished.
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We're obviously of similar vintage, kt, and I agree with your observations; although Doug putting Graham Turner to the slaughter by bringing him in seemed pretty bizarre.
I hated the TSM appointment because it was so blatantly idiotic; I hated the DimTim appointment because it was so obviously dimwitted.
That also crossed my mind but at least Turner could, in a way, have been considered an up and coming manager that had gone under the radar and it would have been a real feather in Doug's ego had it come off. But putting the manager of Shrewsbury Town in charge of the recent European Champions was somewhat optimistic/daft and was no doubt driven more by Doug's famed parsimony rather than a belief he had talent spotted the next Graham Taylor.
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The most ill-judged idea in my Villa-following lifetime. Genuinely unfathomable. Bruce might have been a bit pants and horribly boring, but he stabilised and bought some impressive players (McGinn might be one of the best value signings ever). Tactics Tim was a huge contributor to relegation with his appalling, non-management management style, but at least he did have that cup run, kept us up and properly put Grealish in the team. McLeish was, in every sense, a total waste of time.
Starting games with 6 or 7 defenders on the pitch. At least Gareth Southgate seemed to be paying attention.
I can't forget that game at Spurs with about 5 full backs selected and Heskey at right midfield.
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The most ill-judged idea in my Villa-following lifetime. Genuinely unfathomable. Bruce might have been a bit pants and horribly boring, but he stabilised and bought some impressive players (McGinn might be one of the best value signings ever). Tactics Tim was a huge contributor to relegation with his appalling, non-management management style, but at least he did have that cup run, kept us up and properly put Grealish in the team. McLeish was, in every sense, a total waste of time.
Starting games with 6 or 7 defenders on the pitch. At least Gareth Southgate seemed to be paying attention.
I can't forget that game at Spurs with about 5 full backs selected and Heskey at right midfield.
I will never forgive BFR for insisting on playing Dalian when Yorke was on fire.
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The most ill-judged idea in my Villa-following lifetime. Genuinely unfathomable. Bruce might have been a bit pants and horribly boring, but he stabilised and bought some impressive players (McGinn might be one of the best value signings ever). Tactics Tim was a huge contributor to relegation with his appalling, non-management management style, but at least he did have that cup run, kept us up and properly put Grealish in the team. McLeish was, in every sense, a total waste of time.
Starting games with 6 or 7 defenders on the pitch. At least Gareth Southgate seemed to be paying attention.
I can't forget that game at Spurs with about 5 full backs selected and Heskey at right midfield.
Wasn't it Heskey on one wing, Hutton on the other? Trying to emulate the Beckham/Giggs axis.
Would have been hilarious if it wasn't us.
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The most ill-judged idea in my Villa-following lifetime. Genuinely unfathomable. Bruce might have been a bit pants and horribly boring, but he stabilised and bought some impressive players (McGinn might be one of the best value signings ever). Tactics Tim was a huge contributor to relegation with his appalling, non-management management style, but at least he did have that cup run, kept us up and properly put Grealish in the team. McLeish was, in every sense, a total waste of time.
Starting games with 6 or 7 defenders on the pitch. At least Gareth Southgate seemed to be paying attention.
I can't forget that game at Spurs with about 5 full backs selected and Heskey at right midfield.
I will never forgive BFR for insisting on playing Dalian when Yorke was on fire.
More understandable as up until his injury at Liverpool, he'd looked absolutely unstoppable.
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The TSM is still the most inexplicable appointment. Houllier and Sherwood were very odd in their own way but at least the timing and panic due to few other options was a consideration. McNeil was also a strangish one as hadn't set the world alight at Cit-eh. All had to 'do something appointments' smack about them though understandable.
The TSM though he had time to think. Yes think. How was that ever an answer? I remember when he resigned at Blues thinking - well he isn't going to get a better job in England than that. I mean his record and style is pretty awful. Maybe Stoke at best.
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The most ill-judged idea in my Villa-following lifetime. Genuinely unfathomable. Bruce might have been a bit pants and horribly boring, but he stabilised and bought some impressive players (McGinn might be one of the best value signings ever). Tactics Tim was a huge contributor to relegation with his appalling, non-management management style, but at least he did have that cup run, kept us up and properly put Grealish in the team. McLeish was, in every sense, a total waste of time.
Starting games with 6 or 7 defenders on the pitch. At least Gareth Southgate seemed to be paying attention.
I can't forget that game at Spurs with about 5 full backs selected and Heskey at right midfield.
Wasn't it Heskey on one wing, Hutton on the other? Trying to emulate the Beckham/Giggs axis.
Would have been hilarious if it wasn't us.
Didn't we play Albion away and get a 0-0 with Chris Herd and Ciaran Clark in midfield? Another McLeish masterstroke, although the signing and unsurprising injury of Jermaine Jenas with us footing the bill for his wages still narks me to this day
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Chris Herd, there is a blast from the past. I always liked him but its fair to say his career has been a little mixed since leaving us.
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He had a lovely haircut.
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The most ill-judged idea in my Villa-following lifetime. Genuinely unfathomable. Bruce might have been a bit pants and horribly boring, but he stabilised and bought some impressive players (McGinn might be one of the best value signings ever). Tactics Tim was a huge contributor to relegation with his appalling, non-management management style, but at least he did have that cup run, kept us up and properly put Grealish in the team. McLeish was, in every sense, a total waste of time.
Starting games with 6 or 7 defenders on the pitch. At least Gareth Southgate seemed to be paying attention.
I can't forget that game at Spurs with about 5 full backs selected and Heskey at right midfield.
I will never forgive BFR for insisting on playing Dalian when Yorke was on fire.
Yeah Blackburn away !
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All the strikers were crap for the last 15-20 games. Yorke was the best of the bunch with a massive 4 in about 18 games.
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Chris Herd, there is a blast from the past. I always liked him but its fair to say his career has been a little mixed since leaving us.
Just Wiki'd him. Yep, didn't really kick on.
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All the strikers were crap for the last 15-20 games. Yorke was the best of the bunch with a massive 4 in about 18 games.
For us? Was class Spring of 98 when we practically won every game (Bolton, Palace and Atletico aside).
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All the strikers were crap for the last 15-20 games. Yorke was the best of the bunch with a massive 4 in about 18 games.
For us? Was class Spring of 98 when we practically won every game (Bolton, Palace and Atletico aside).
92/93
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If I remember correctly after Steevie McClaren (the Wally with the Brolly) was turned around whilst on his way to Villa, due to fans vociferous dismay & concerns. The Club then went for Mcliesh maybe partly to say Up Yours to the fans
McClaren was a bizarre pick to go after aswell. He went to Forest a few weeks later and lasted until October. Since then his only spell in premier league was at Newcastle in 15/16 who had a much better 11 than we did that season but were on verge of relegation when he was sacked. Benitez came in and won a couple and it still wasn't enough.
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I hope nobody has just eaten:
""That was a difficult and uncomfortable period. Paul and I felt that, above all, the club needed stability. We needed a manager who would understand Villa and could bring credibility and experience to the dressing room and had chemistry with us and trust in our approach. We researched and debated and discussed probably two dozen odd managers from all over until we came to feel that, despite Alex's last post, he met the criteria. Not only is he affable and optimistic, well-liked and certainly well-respected among peers and players alike, but he fit our plan. He fit our feeling that a modern manager needs to balance the hysterical urgency to win and win quickly with the equally crucial need to not squander the work of our academy."
Did the reaction of some supporters make him question this decision at any stage? "It certainly raised the stakes but, if we are right in terms of the fundamentals, then over time Alex will do as he's always done and that is make Villa better," he insists. "What Paul and I knew was that he had the right ingredients. With some good luck, and his trademark hard work and commitment, we felt our chances would be good. We felt his strengths simply outweighed any concerns. When you spend time with Alex, a lot of the sensitivities go away very quickly. Time with Alex is not only engaging, it is compelling. He's pure football. That, in the end, is what you want.
"Sir Alex Ferguson wrote to me after the appointment, a proper letter, talking about his feelings about Alex. It was something you don't easily forget and it's now in a safe deposit box. Given what Sir Alex Ferguson means to the game of football, I don't think you could get many things that you would be more proud of, or reflect better on Alex McLeish."
I think the Paul referred to was Paul Faulkner the then current CEO. It was Like the blind leading the blind
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The thing I didn't understand about the McLeish appointment was not the fact he'd been at Blues or that he'd got them relegated (although that was a headscratcher), it was that under Houllier we'd had a season of pain, but towards the end started playing some actual passing football.
Houllier then had to leave, and we tried to recruit Martinez, a manager not without his weaknesses, but all the same, known for playing passing football.
When he knocked us back, we then turned to McLeish, a manager whose style of play was the diametric opposite of what we'd gone through that painful season to start doing.
It just seemed so utterly fucking random.
What was Bielsa doing at the time? I think he’d have done well with those players. We still had some good ones then I seem to recall?
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O'Neill Houllier McLeish Lambert
I mean not exactly what you'd call continuity appointments
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With the Houllier appointment there was still talk of the champions league from the club. I think when Houllier took us backwards Lerner lost interest and let the lunatics take over the asylum.
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They should’ve kept Mcallister on. We seemed to relax a bit more when he took over from Arthur Bostrom.
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O'Neill Houllier McLeish Lambert
I mean not exactly what you'd call continuity appointments
Almost as if Lerner didn't have a long term strategy. Or a plan. Or a clue.
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Wasn't it Heskey on one wing, Hutton on the other? Trying to emulate the Beckham/Giggs axis.
Would have been hilarious if it wasn't us.
Yes you're right, Hutton as right midfield and Heskey somewhere else in midfield. Not sure we actually played anyone up front - gabby maybe?- as the aim seemed to be get nil and keep them down to 2 - which to be fair, McLeish achieved.
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They should’ve kept Mcallister on. We seemed to relax a bit more when he took over from Arthur Bostrom.
You're right Kippax. IIRC our performances showed improvement for the short time he was in charge. I would suggest from memory that we did something similar formwise when Roy Aitken was in charge after TSM1 left.
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The most ill-judged idea in my Villa-following lifetime. Genuinely unfathomable. Bruce might have been a bit pants and horribly boring, but he stabilised and bought some impressive players (McGinn might be one of the best value signings ever). Tactics Tim was a huge contributor to relegation with his appalling, non-management management style, but at least he did have that cup run, kept us up and properly put Grealish in the team. McLeish was, in every sense, a total waste of time.
Starting games with 6 or 7 defenders on the pitch. At least Gareth Southgate seemed to be paying attention.
I can't forget that game at Spurs with about 5 full backs selected and Heskey at right midfield.
Wasn't it Heskey on one wing, Hutton on the other? Trying to emulate the Beckham/Giggs axis.
Would have been hilarious if it wasn't us.
That reminds me of one of our managers saying Heskey was like Franz Beckenbauer. Probably Lambert. He was always coming out with nonsense.
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Heskey had gone before Lambert arrived, it was McLeish.
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Ok thanks.
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Interesting interview with Keith Wyness by Villa Vlogger Jude's Journey
&ab_channel=Jude%27sJourney
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I thought that was interesting, too.
I suspect Wyness got a lot of stick he didn't deserve.
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I thought that was interesting, too.
I suspect Wyness got a lot of stick he didn't deserve.
I'm convinced of it.
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Really good interview. An arrest warrant out in China for Dr Xia. Ross McOrmack's behaviour was reprehensible! Two quotes from Keith Wyness, who comes across as quite a genuine guy and clearly has a soft spot for the club. Thank God for our new owners!
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Xia has now been shown up, quite clearly, as a dud, I don't think anyone can deny that. That said I don't think it means Wyness gets credit for being hard done by. He made plenty of basic errors himself so I'll go with fuck em both and thank god for the new owners and board. I get some people might not like Purslow but for me he's a massive improvement on Wyness in every way with his basic understanding of the game the most important of them and the difference in attitude that creates is a big part of why the club just feels so much better. I think the managers they picked are a clear reflection on who they both are.
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What would have happened if we'd gone up in 2018 I wonder? Can't help thinking it would ended in tears one way or another.
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What would have happened if we'd gone up in 2018 I wonder? Can't help thinking it would ended in tears one way or another.
Best thing that didn’t happen to us. Loads of stuff wouldn’t have come to light. Old built up shoes still in charge. Bruce with a bigger budget to spend.
*shudders
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What would have happened if we'd gone up in 2018 I wonder? Can't help thinking it would ended in tears one way or another.
It would have shown up Bruce and Wyness' "get some loans in on big wages to get us up and then worry about things afterwards" strategy.
By the way, did Wyness really say he left the club in a better state than he found it?! Don't recall the taxman banging on the door when Lerner left the club
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That’s a fascinating interview but ultimately still one side of the story. And I’m not dismissing that his version is probably closer to the truth than any version that could come from Xia. I’m sure we were a status symbol for Xia in China and once the funding was pulled he was clearly fucked and everything spiralled downhill fast after that. The thing that made Xia popular with many fans for much of his time with the club was that he was the anti Lerner. We went from an owner who by the end, when we really need him to lead and reassure came out with one or two words, much of it nonsensical bollocks to one who seemed to enjoy the interaction with a battered and bruised fan base. By that stage most of us were just delighted to see the back of Lerner, and while smoking mirrors we appeared to have a chance of changing our fortunes quickly. As it turned out, it was to be nothing but an illusion and ultimately turned into a nightmare.
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I've said a few times I think pound for pound McCormack is probably our worst signing ever and the very brief comments there seem to back it up.
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I've said a few times I think pound for pound McCormack is probably our worst signing ever and the very brief comments there seem to back it up.
I'd love to know the full story behind it and what he was up to. Both Wyness and Bruce have been around the block a bit and yet they both seemed genuinely amazed and disgusted at him. The fact that since leaving us the only takers have been Aldershot says a lot.
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Xia has now been shown up, quite clearly, as a dud, I don't think anyone can deny that. That said I don't think it means Wyness gets credit for being hard done by. He made plenty of basic errors himself so I'll go with fuck em both and thank god for the new owners and board. I get some people might not like Purslow but for me he's a massive improvement on Wyness in every way with his basic understanding of the game the most important of them and the difference in attitude that creates is a big part of why the club just feels so much better. I think the managers they picked are a clear reflection on who they both are.
Wyness, Xia and Bruce oversaw us running up a near £80 million wage bill in the Championship on an ageing squad, with a few borrowed players thrown in. Xia as owner was a loose cannon and a disaster, but to see both Wyness and Bruce still trying to weasel away from the car crash they helped to cause tells you all you need to know.
Bollocks to the three of them.
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What would have happened if we'd gone up in 2018 I wonder? Can't help thinking it would ended in tears one way or another.
We'd have coverted Johnstone and Snodgrass into permanents and signed likes of Fellani and Javier Hernandez if reports were to be believed at the time. Perhaps Tammy on a season long loan at prem level which would've been interesting.
Would've probably made less signings given the overall squad situation in summer 2018 but likes of Whelan and Kodj would've been regular starters so would've been no less a struggle to stay up than 19/20 was playing even more turgid football.
Had completely forgotten about Abel Hernandez listening to that interview.
I think a problem here is we simply didn't do much research into what we were getting in. The rumours of Di Matteo when he got potted at WBA is training was very lax and I had concerns that Fulham never got close to top 6 while McCormack was there despite his very impressive YT montage of goals and seems he saw the move to us as his effective post football pension.
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Feel a bit bad for assuming the worst in Keith, he comes across very well there.
Di Matteo not working hard enough, McCormack being a complete waste of skin (I'd love to know the full story) and Xia's interference and general incompetence....despite pointing those out, it sounds like Wyness really is biting his tongue on the full truth of that era due to confidentiality clauses. Thank fuck we survived it.
Netflix should have had their cameras rolling at Bodymoor, they would have got two great seasons/series out of 2016-18.
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Xia contacting Wyness from China during a match to tell Bruce to make 2 subs? One of whom (Whelan) then scored?!
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Before I watch it, the guy's lying in bed. I do most of my meetings like that, but I don't tell the other person, and I certainly wouldn't broadcast it - is it any good?
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What would have happened if we'd gone up in 2018 I wonder? Can't help thinking it would ended in tears one way or another.
I was thinking about that yesterday: best thing not to happen.
Imagine the club management (Xia et al) and Bruce; together in the Premier League sweet shop?!
It would have been a nightmare.
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Before I watch it, the guy's lying in bed. I do most of my meetings like that, but I don't tell the other person, and I certainly wouldn't broadcast it - is it any good?
He has Cerebral palsy. His dream is to be a sports journalist so respect to Wyness for giving him an interview. It was good PR for Wyness too.
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Most of the Xia period just saw us doubling down on the mistakes we had been making for the last 10 years in bringing in highly paid and largely aging players in the hope of a short-term fix. It was never going to be sustainable on a purely financial level to have to constantly recycle the squad with little to no return on players moving out. Wyness was part of that, and whilst I'm sure he had his hands tied to an extent, an experienced administrator should have realised that we had to find a different path.
I don't think there has ever been a clearer example of a 'Sliding Doors' moment than the Fulham play-off. Had we won that I dread to think where we might be now, but I suspect it would have involved us being somewhere near the bottom of the Championship, possibly with points deductions and with a squad comprising a mixture of has-beens and youngsters who were not good enough to get a gig elsewhere, and selling off the family silver to make ends meet. Instead we've got possibly our most exciting team in 25 years with the youngest average age of any team in the Premier League, and a solid structure within the club from bottom to top.
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It was abundantly clear sometime before the Play Off final that things were not right financialy and Wynesss knew that or he damn well should have known..
If you disagree with the Chairman you have 2 choices as CEO, you either fall on your sword or you shut up whilst recieving your salary. He chose the latter. I dont wish him any ill but I dont have too much sympathy for him, if you lay down with dogs you get fleas.
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we would have been in for a whole world of pain if we had won that play off final, that i do know
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Yeah, that might be the best defeat in our history. Our version of Liverpool's being knocked out of the cup by Worcester.
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Thought he was very skillfull in treading between the lines of his confidentially agreement and letting us know something of the truth. He came across well.
I always imagined that Xia was simply the frontman for some shady Chinese investors and nothing Wyeness said dissuaded me of that.
Thanks for posting
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Does not bare thinking about.\ His mates / creditors from China would have been all over it like a rash. Just think what he could have done with PL status and future revenue streams.
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we would have been in for a whole world of pain if we had won that play off final, that i do know
It would have been a struggle for sure but we still would have had Jack, likes of Johnstone and Snodgrass signed permanently and who knows maybe McGinn and Tammy signed that summer. But a lot of that team (Hutton, Terry, Adamoah etc) just weren't top division standard. Not to mention the utter chaos that would have continued behind the scenes.
Wyness is trying to rewrite history a bit. Sure Xia was a complete chancer but as a CEO he left the club effectively insolvent. He was the one who signed off on the ridiculous business the summer RDM came in and Bruce's first Jan where crazy deals like Hogan and Lansbury were authorised. Our turnover/wages ratio must have been off the charts for the duration of his tenure as CEO.
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Something he said that seemed strange, '19k per week on Hernandez wasn't something we could do in the Championship', That didn't seem particularly extravagent when compared to some of the other reported wages paid?
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Something he said that seemed strange, '19k per week on Hernandez wasn't something we could do in the Championship', That didn't seem particularly extravagent when compared to some of the other reported wages paid?
I think that was the agent fee.
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I heard it as 90k per week
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I heard it as 90k per week
That might explain it......
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Comes across very well in that interview, mind you, there's always two sides to a story but I'm happy to believe Wyness about McCormack without question.
If we'd won that Play Off Final in 2018 we'd have come straight down again without any question, the financial ramifications aren't worth even thinking about, we probably wouldn't exist.
I'd be interested to hear his story about John Terry, how we landed him as a player, his contract end & subsequent return as a coach.
Old shit shoes and his wingdings emoji Twitter, what a way to run a football club.
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£90k/week??!! Most Premier League clubs would have baulked at that. Whoever was advising needs their head read. It should have been a very short conversation.
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Probably fair to surmise that he didn’t really rate Dr Shitty shoes, or Mr Shitty shoes as he should now be referred to after that interview. He said enough for us to to read between the lines. Sounds like a mad crazy time- 5 options to pursue for every deal needing to be done. Doug’s battered old fax machine would’ve been spewing paper out all over the shop. Jude did well interviewing him, I thought.
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£90k/week??!! Most Premier League clubs would have baulked at that. Whoever was advising needs their head read. It should have been a very short conversation.
Same agent as Pogba's. "Refreshingly" admits that he's in it for the money.
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Brilliant interview, very insightful. You get the impression that local media don't want to dig too deep as they might scared what they find but this lad has reveled more about that period then anything I've read before.
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I think he has said what a lot of us would have thought about outdoor have gone on with the dr or should I say mr xia. The most interesting part was when he inferred our Roman didn’t our in a full shift
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I think he has said what a lot of us would have thought about outdoor have gone on with the dr or should I say mr xia. The most interesting part was when he inferred our Roman didn’t our in a full shift
wise words mate
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If you disagree with the Chairman you have 2 choices as CEO, you either fall on your sword or you shut up whilst recieving your salary. He chose the latter. I dont wish him any ill but I dont have too much sympathy for him, if you lay down with dogs you get fleas.
Not just that, you also have legal obligations - in that case, by looking to put the club into administration when it could clearly not go on, he was fulfilling those obligations.
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If you disagree with the Chairman you have 2 choices as CEO, you either fall on your sword or you shut up whilst recieving your salary. He chose the latter. I dont wish him any ill but I dont have too much sympathy for him, if you lay down with dogs you get fleas.
Not just that, you also have legal obligations - in that case, by looking to put the club into administration when it could clearly not go on, he was fulfilling those obligations.
yes he did eventually after he fell out with Xia. Would he have passed the Wrongfull trading Dilligent Director test though?
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To be fair I think a lot of people at the club had tunnel vision just wishing that we get promoted and use the money to sort the finances out. Xia was a gambler no more no less and was very close to being a successful one (potentially at least)
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Was there anything to that Villaleaks episode? Regardless, Keith Wyness never seemed to have a problem jumping into bed with Chris Samuleson, Jamie Banfill and eventually Tony Xia. Anybody in the game for as long as Wyness would have known all about Samuleson and Banfill.
No surprise about Di Matteo, I never rated or wanted him but felt at least with the experienced Steve Clark along side him, I expected we'd be organised and in with a shout of automatic promotion. That feeling lasted a few games when it was clear Di Matteo had no respect for Clark and constantly ignored him during games. I'd love to hear Clark's side of the story at his short stay at Villa Park.
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We did give away a hell of a lot of late goals in that period, dropping two points on multiple occasions.
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We did give away a hell of a lot of late goals in that period, dropping two points on multiple occasions.
Your right, Eamonn, much is made of how Bruce inherited a side about to be relegated but I think we'd only lost 2 league games under Di Matteo, it was the draws that killed him.
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We did give away a hell of a lot of late goals in that period, dropping two points on multiple occasions.
Your right, Eamonn, much is made of how Bruce inherited a side about to be relegated but I think we'd only lost 2 league games under Di Matteo, it was the draws that killed him.
Sheff Weds - dropped 1 point in the 86th minute
Huddersfield - dropped 2 points in the 86th minute
Forest - dropped 2 points in the 87th minute
Brentford - dropped 2 points in the 88th minute
Barnsley - dropped 2 points in the 90th minute
9 points dropped by the 10th game of the season by conceding in the last 5minutes. If games were 80minutes we'd have been 5th instead of 17th.
In that time the only point we gained late on was against Newcastle with an 88th minute equaliser.
This is no defence of RDM or attack on Bruce but those numbers suggest we weren't a basket case like Sunderland and it was only going to take a bit of belief and bit of composure late in the game to turn us around to challenge for the playoffs. That's why i can't quite agree with the idea that Bruce steadied the ship, his run from just after Christmas until the end of Feb was far worse and, in my opinion, was the low point of the time in the championship.
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We did give away a hell of a lot of late goals in that period, dropping two points on multiple occasions.
Your right, Eamonn, much is made of how Bruce inherited a side about to be relegated but I think we'd only lost 2 league games under Di Matteo, it was the draws that killed him.
Sheff Weds - dropped 1 point in the 86th minute
Huddersfield - dropped 2 points in the 86th minute
Forest - dropped 2 points in the 87th minute
Brentford - dropped 2 points in the 88th minute
Barnsley - dropped 2 points in the 90th minute
9 points dropped by the 10th game of the season by conceding in the last 5minutes. If games were 80minutes we'd have been 5th instead of 17th.
In that time the only point we gained late on was against Newcastle with an 88th minute equaliser.
This is no defence of RDM or attack on Bruce but those numbers suggest we weren't a basket case like Sunderland and it was only going to take a bit of belief and bit of composure late in the game to turn us around to challenge for the playoffs. That's why i can't quite agree with the idea that Bruce steadied the ship, his run from just after Christmas until the end of Feb was far worse and, in my opinion, was the low point of the time in the championship.
I thought we were in trouble, we couldn't buy a win and hadn't as a club for too long.
I think if it would have carried on we'd have been in big trouble, we were just too soft.
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I thought we were in trouble, we couldn't buy a win and hadn't as a club for too long.
I think if it would have carried on we'd have been in big trouble, we were just too soft.
Good point about 'hadn't as a club for too long'. Thinking back, we all expected to smash the Championship with the amount of money spent. Instead it was like Groundhog Day and everybody was desperate for a win. Bruce got one thing right that gave him a lot more time and patience from the fans, he got the team constantly winning at Villa Park, something we hadn't seen this century.
After such bollocks for so many years, fans would happily take a scruffy home win at home as the bar had been set so low for so long.
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I don't think we were too soft, I think we were unfit and mentally unprepared to have to fight for the points. BVruce gave us that fight but never addressed the fitness issue in all the time he was with us. By bringing the average age of the squad down and focusing on players with a great attitude towards putting the work in during training Smith has completely turned it round and we're now one of the fittest teams in the country.
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I don't think we were too soft, I think we were unfit and mentally unprepared to have to fight for the points. BVruce gave us that fight but never addressed the fitness issue in all the time he was with us. By bringing the average age of the squad down and focusing on players with a great attitude towards putting the work in during training Smith has completely turned it round and we're now one of the fittest teams in the country.
And fitness was definitely an issue last season, before the lockdown.
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I don't think we were too soft, I think we were unfit and mentally unprepared to have to fight for the points. BVruce gave us that fight but never addressed the fitness issue in all the time he was with us. By bringing the average age of the squad down and focusing on players with a great attitude towards putting the work in during training Smith has completely turned it round and we're now one of the fittest teams in the country.
And fitness was definitely an issue last season, before the lockdown.
Last season I think it was in no smal lpart because the summer was so disrupted by signings that we just couldn't get everyone to the level we needed.
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I would back Wyness and Bruce to some extent despite each of their limitations. Xia was an out and out smoke and mirrors conman.
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Interesting interview with Keith Wyness by Villa Vlogger Jude's Journey
&ab_channel=Jude%27sJourney
Not subbing Whelan was always going to be the end for Bruce.
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The only other thing I would say about the situation is that Wyness knew what was happening and much of it could be viewed as not exactly kosher. Why did he not speak out at the time. He has impeached himself by remaining in his position throughout.
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The only other thing I would say about the situation is that Wyness knew what was happening and much of it could be viewed as not exactly kosher. Why did he not speak out at the time. He has impeached himself by remaining in his position throughout.
It's called taking the money and run
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Problem for Di Matteo is the Preston performance was so bad. I was there and we went two down within 15 minutes and barely had a shot despite having about 4 strikers on the pitch at the end.
We were also lucky to get the point off Newcastle the previous week. They looked the top 2 side, we looked set for mid table which happened.
Ultimately we just had a losing culture for years that didn't just stop with relegation and been loads of other relegated prem sides who've had that problem. Finally got going end of the season before ultimately failing the next year.
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Interesting interview with Keith Wyness by Villa Vlogger Jude's Journey
&ab_channel=Jude%27sJourney
Not subbing Whelan was always going to be the end for Bruce.
Makes Glenn a double legend then...not getting substituted & missing the penalty! Whellllllo