Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Villa Memories => Topic started by: PeterWithesShin on March 08, 2017, 03:28:18 PM
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There's a few inaccuracies but still a decent read
Neglected Heroes (http://thesefootballtimes.co/2017/03/07/neglected-heroes-ron-saunders-aston-villa-and-the-glory-of-the-early-1980s/)
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The 'Saunders left because Ellis was returning' myth continues to do the rounds.
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The 'Saunders left because Ellis was returning' myth continues to do the rounds.
I was too young to appreciate the minutiae of contracts at the time so am I right in thinking Ron left because the Bendalls wanted to replace his rolling contract with a more standard one for a set period?
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I count myself as being lucky to have been around to witness that team at first hand. Superb!
Out of interest, what is the real reason for Saunders resigning? Does anyone actually know? For what it's worth I always thought it was because Ron Bendall refused to give Saunders the "three year" roll over contract that he felt he deserved - although I'm probably mistaken.
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As stated in the excellent article, Ron never explained the reason behind the resignation but it was commonly believed to be "contract" related
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What a wonderful read, mistakes aside I enjoyed reliving those years.
How we need a visionary manager like Ron Saunders or SGT now.
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What we know - four days before Saunders resigned, the Mail had a story that his three year rolling contract was to be replaced by an ordinary three year deal. Bendall said economies had to be made; Saunders said the odds were now against his ambition of ending his career at Villa Park. After resigning he said he was paid "to manage Villa, not to be a puppet or office boy".
What we can theorise - Dennis Mortimer heard his autonomy was being taken away, but was never told the full story. The contract was not as lucrative as was first thought, hence its scrapping may have been more for political than financial reasons. Harry Kartz said that Bendall had once told him he wanted to goad Saunders into resigning.
What was argued - The board said Saunders had control over the playing side but also wanted complete control. He denied this. They said he had leaked confidential information in a radio interview. He said he hadn't.
Saunders left in February 1982. Ellis was announced as new chairman in December 1982. Half an hour earlier Harry Parkes was about to buy Bendall's shares. If Saunders knew about this ten months earlier he was beyond clairvoyant.
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Do you want to bet against him being clairvoyant?
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People harp on about Paisley for a knighthood, Brian Clough a football genius, Bertie Mee a master tactician Bill Nicholson as some sort of superstar but Saunders although with a persona as a dour person produced probably the best attacking side in my lifetime (the 77 team).
It was a joy to watch. Those present at Old Trafford for the 2nd replay will testify to AVFC Aston Villa are magic. 110%
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Harry Kartz said that Bendall had once told him he wanted to goad Saunders into resigning.
Why would you want to get rid of the manager who had given you the League ?
Perhaps Bendall thought Saunders had overspent with the finances and was trying to reign things in. When Ellis returned he said the finances were in a mess, embarking on a programme of austerity which eventually culminated in relegation.
Are there parallels between the Lerner/MON situation and Bendall/Saunders ? The manager overstretching the clubs finances to achieve success but the directors/owner at some point deciding the manager is going too far spending money and when the plug is pulled we go into a general decline for 4-5 years.
Of course the comparison only goes so far. Saunders won the League and left a team which won the European Cup, all MON managed was 6th place.
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Harry Kartz said that Bendall had once told him he wanted to goad Saunders into resigning.
Why would you want to get rid of the manager who had given you the League ?
Perhaps Bendall thought Saunders had overspent with the finances and was trying to reign things in. When Ellis returned he said the finances were in a mess, embarking on a programme of austerity which eventually culminated in relegation.
Are there parallels between the Lerner/MON situation and Bendall/Saunders ? The manager overstretching the clubs finances to achieve success but the directors/owner at some point deciding the manager is going too far spending money and when the plug is pulled we go into a general decline for 4-5 years.
Of course the comparison only goes so far. Saunders won the League and left a team which won the European Cup, all MON managed was 6th place.
Saunders was a top quality manager though, MON maybe in his own mind or that of the media.
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Harry Kartz said that Bendall had once told him he wanted to goad Saunders into resigning.
Why would you want to get rid of the manager who had given you the League ?
Perhaps Bendall thought Saunders had overspent with the finances and was trying to reign things in. When Ellis returned he said the finances were in a mess, embarking on a programme of austerity which eventually culminated in relegation.
Are there parallels between the Lerner/MON situation and Bendall/Saunders ? The manager overstretching the clubs finances to achieve success but the directors/owner at some point deciding the manager is going too far spending money and when the plug is pulled we go into a general decline for 4-5 years.
Of course the comparison only goes so far. Saunders won the League and left a team which won the European Cup, all MON managed was 6th place.
It was a strange situation. Bendall had fallen out with Saunders and wasn't bothered about success because he didn't like football and had gradually bought his shareholding as a hobby for Don, his idiot son.
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So in hindsight Saunders leaving could be viewed as the biggest mistake in our history. That said Saunders may have built a legacy but he'd have been hampered by the European ban which hit a good team like Everton in the mid 1980s.
We will never know, but we were on the verge of something in the early 80's. We won the league, we won the cup and Ronald Bendall fucked it up. I'm sure I heard that chant back in those pre-Rotterdam, post Saunders days.
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Harry Kartz said that Bendall had once told him he wanted to goad Saunders into resigning.
Why would you want to get rid of the manager who had given you the League ?
Perhaps Bendall thought Saunders had overspent with the finances and was trying to reign things in. When Ellis returned he said the finances were in a mess, embarking on a programme of austerity which eventually culminated in relegation.
Are there parallels between the Lerner/MON situation and Bendall/Saunders ? The manager overstretching the clubs finances to achieve success but the directors/owner at some point deciding the manager is going too far spending money and when the plug is pulled we go into a general decline for 4-5 years.
Of course the comparison only goes so far. Saunders won the League and left a team which won the European Cup, all MON managed was 6th place.
Did we spend a lot? We hardly "bought" the title. What was our wage bill in comparison to Spurs - Villadawg?
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IIRC from what i've read we were paying a shitload in bonuses. In addition to usual win bonuses etc we were paying bonuses for every point we won if we were top 3 (I think it was top 3) plus for crowds over 30K. I could be wrong but i'm sure Dave W knows. We were probably also feeling the effects of the North Stand and also those extra bricks we bought...
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One other mistake in the article is describing Des Bremner as a holding midfielder and that Swain would overlap Cowans (rather than Bremner himself)
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The article is full of mistakes but doesn't detract from the overall theme.
Weren't the wages and bonuses of the time published by someone ob here a while ago? Shaw getting a £5 bonus for each goal or something like that?
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saunders biography comes out next month. It will be essential reading.
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From what I can gather it is just a biography, not input from Ron so I doubt we'll learn anything new from it.
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What a good read thanks for posting.
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It was a strange situation. Bendall had fallen out with Saunders and wasn't bothered about success because he didn't like football and had gradually bought his shareholding as a hobby for Don, his idiot son.
5.40 on this tells you just what success meant to old man Bendall.
Incidentally his son Don was an idiot. My Dad was on a fundraising committee at the club in a voluntary capacity. There was a discussion about how much the club shop had to pay when supporters bought scarves/souvenirs with these new fangled credit cards. The credit card company might be taking say 3% which of course cut into the profit margin and it was felt time for an approach to be made to try and negotiate better terms. Donald pipes up and suggested pushing for 5%.
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What was the reaction amongst Villa fans when Saunders became Blues manager a week later. Was there anger?..Did Ron suddenly become enemy No1 ...or was there sympathy towards him?
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We played a few days after he quit and i'm sure a few lads ran from the Holte to the center circle with a banner saying something like "Please stay Ron", i'm convinced that happened and i'm not imagining seeing it, anyone else remember it?
I was only 12 but I thought he was a bit of a **** for joining them if i'm honest, so did a lot of the Villa fans I knew back then. Time heals and all that and now I remember Ron with much love, but i'm not going to pretend that's not what I thought back then.
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What was the reaction amongst Villa fans when Saunders became Blues manager a week later. Was there anger?..Did Ron suddenly become enemy No1 ...or was there sympathy towards him?
I don't recall anger or sympathy. If I remember it right, I was just shocked. Shocked that he left and shocked that he joined them.
There were a few anti-Saunders chants when we went to St Andrews a few days later but I couldn't quite bring myself to join in.
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I was 16, and probably much like a 12 yo it wasn't life changing, I do however, remember my uncle smashing a plate on the kitchen floor when he heard the news. I was shitting myself!
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What was the reaction amongst Villa fans when Saunders became Blues manager a week later. Was there anger?..Did Ron suddenly become enemy No1 ...or was there sympathy towards him?
I don't recall anger or sympathy. If I remember it right, I was just shocked. Shocked that he left and shocked that he joined them.
There were a few anti-Saunders chants when we went to St Andrews a few days later but I couldn't quite bring myself to join in.
The one I remember was "you must be fucking mad, Saunders, Saunders". Which seemed more pitying than angry.
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What was the reaction amongst Villa fans when Saunders became Blues manager a week later. Was there anger?..Did Ron suddenly become enemy No1 ...or was there sympathy towards him?
I don't recall anger or sympathy. If I remember it right, I was just shocked. Shocked that he left and shocked that he joined them.
There were a few anti-Saunders chants when we went to St Andrews a few days later but I couldn't quite bring myself to join in.
The one I remember was "you must be fucking mad, Saunders, Saunders". Which seemed more pitying than angry.
Yes I remember that one
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I remember seeing a picture of him in the mail sitting on their bench for a game and it just looked so so wrong.
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What was the reaction amongst Villa fans when Saunders became Blues manager a week later. Was there anger?..Did Ron suddenly become enemy No1 ...or was there sympathy towards him?
I don't recall anger or sympathy. If I remember it right, I was just shocked. Shocked that he left and shocked that he joined them.
There were a few anti-Saunders chants when we went to St Andrews a few days later but I couldn't quite bring myself to join in.
The one I remember was "you must be fucking mad, Saunders, Saunders". Which seemed more pitying than angry.
I remember that so well also, didn't we play them literally a couple of days after he took over there - I think it was probably also sung out of sheer disbelief.
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What was the reaction amongst Villa fans when Saunders became Blues manager a week later. Was there anger?..Did Ron suddenly become enemy No1 ...or was there sympathy towards him?
I don't recall anger or sympathy. If I remember it right, I was just shocked. Shocked that he left and shocked that he joined them.
There were a few anti-Saunders chants when we went to St Andrews a few days later but I couldn't quite bring myself to join in.
The one I remember was "you must be fucking mad, Saunders, Saunders". Which seemed more pitying than angry.
I remember that so well also, didn't we play them literally a couple of days after he took over there - I think it was probably also sung out of sheer disbelief.
Yes we sang that and to the same tune, "You'll be the first to go... Worthington... Worthington" at Frank Worthington.
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Are there parallels between the Lerner/MON situation and Bendall/Saunders ? The manager overstretching the clubs finances to achieve success but the directors/owner at some point deciding the manager is going too far spending money and when the plug is pulled we go into a general decline for 4-5 years.
No. Having won the league with just 14 players our transfer spend as Champions was just £300,000, the signing of Andy Blair from Coventry. I think we only spent £500,000 the season before with the signing of Peter Withe. Admittedly gate receipts wouldn't have been that high with attendances low as the city was suffering the consequences of mass unemployment.
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What was the reaction amongst Villa fans when Saunders became Blues manager a week later. Was there anger?..Did Ron suddenly become enemy No1 ...or was there sympathy towards him?
IIRC just shock.
He could have got a much much better, or certainly bigger job.
Fupp me El Tel with a smidgeon of his record wound up at Barca a couple of years later.
Leeds was an obvious one.
He was interviewed a few years back by Pat Murphy and said he didn't want to uproot his family (again) which is why he took the first available 'local' job.
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I miss hearing his voice talking about Villa.
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He was the ultimate Villa agent...won league cup, promotion and championship with us, went to blues and got them relegated and knocked out of the cup to Altrincham, then went to West Brom and sold Steve Bull to Wolves!
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The big centre-forward coolly tapped the ball in with his weaker foot, as it bobbled up just before he struck it...!!
Coolly tapped indeed...
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I heard but do not know how true it is, when he left he hid the club car, I think a Jag in a barn somewhere over Solihull, but took the drivers seat out as he had paid for a special one due to a back problem. The car sat there by all accounts for years.
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I think Gary Williams and to a lesser degree Colin Gibson are completely neglected from that team. hardly mentioned by anyone - even us - but i because unless your'e debonair or still in football that's the life of a full back.
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dave woodall is right that the myth that Saunders left because Ellis was coming back is completely untrue. The chair of the board was Ron Bendall in 1982 and in 1983 at an AGM Ellis offered to give his 15% of the shares to a third party if Ron gave his 25% to the same third party. instead a few weeks later Ron sold his shares to Ellis and with 40% Ellis ran the club for years.
The AGM at that time was open to fans to attend, and there were a couple of thousand in the old Witton Lane Stand now the Doug Ellis who heard what was said. But the myth still goes around. Dave is right, Ellis did not return till after Saunders was gone and after we had won the European cup.
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Bendalls were apparently behind the tax fiddle for the new witton road stand and horse fac me on bendall only escaped justice due to him passing away
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Harry Kartz said that Bendall had once told him he wanted to goad Saunders into resigning.
Why would you want to get rid of the manager who had given you the League ?
Perhaps Bendall thought Saunders had overspent with the finances and was trying to reign things in. When Ellis returned he said the finances were in a mess, embarking on a programme of austerity which eventually culminated in relegation.
Are there parallels between the Lerner/MON situation and Bendall/Saunders ? The manager overstretching the clubs finances to achieve success but the directors/owner at some point deciding the manager is going too far spending money and when the plug is pulled we go into a general decline for 4-5 years.
Of course the comparison only goes so far. Saunders won the League and left a team which won the European Cup, all MON managed was 6th place.
MFON bought and froze out more players than Ron Saunders used to win the title.
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dave woodall is right that the myth that Saunders left because Ellis was coming back is completely untrue. The chair of the board was Ron Bendall in 1982 and in 1983 at an AGM Ellis offered to give his 15% of the shares to a third party if Ron gave his 25% to the same third party. instead a few weeks later Ron sold his shares to Ellis and with 40% Ellis ran the club for years.
The AGM at that time was open to fans to attend, and there were a couple of thousand in the old Witton Lane Stand now the Doug Ellis who heard what was said. But the myth still goes around. Dave is right, Ellis did not return till after Saunders was gone and after we had won the European cup.
I've no idea where you get the story about the 1983 AGM from. Ellis had sold his shares to Bendall in 1979 and bought them back in 1982.
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What was the reaction amongst Villa fans when Saunders became Blues manager a week later. Was there anger?..Did Ron suddenly become enemy No1 ...or was there sympathy towards him?
IIRC just shock.
He could have got a much much better, or certainly bigger job.
Fupp me El Tel with a smidgeon of his record wound up at Barca a couple of years later.
Leeds was an obvious one.
He was interviewed a few years back by Pat Murphy and said he didn't want to uproot his family (again) which is why he took the first available 'local' job.
The initial reaction was shock and during the midweek game just after his resignation there were vocal protests against Bendall. But once he went to Blues the anger turned on Saunders and it lasted a long time. Remember in the initial 'there's a cricus in the town' song - it was Saunders who was the clown. But time heals such wounds and he is now remembered as the Villa legend he is. There was also real surprise when Barton was appointed as I remember. I'd never heard of him and thought that if anyone from the backroom staff was going to take over it would have been Roy McLaren as he had a higher profile.
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"We won the league, we won the cup, now Ronald Bendall's fucked it up". Is what I remember being sung on the Holte the very first time we played at home after Ron left.
On Donald Bendall, I took issue with Ian Willars I think it was. He'd written a book on the Villa at the time and in it he'd praised Donald Bendall as being a truly great supporter, travelling everywhere to watch the Villa.
I wrote to Willars suggesting that it wasn't too difficult to travel everywhere when all you had to do was sit in the back of a Rolls Royce and be chauffeured all over the place and then sit in directors' boxes and be entertained.
I cited to him an example of what I considered to be a real supporter. The previous Saturday we'd played at Stoke (we won) and standing in front of us was a kid of about thirteen or fourteen. I got chatting to him asking was he with his dad or mates or what. It transpired he'd made his own way there. The joy on that kids face when we scored and at full time and what it meant to him is still with me to this day. We were going to give him a lift back but he just vanished. I'll never forget him and told Willars that that was what I considered a real supporter.
In fairness to Willars he paid me the courtesy of replying to my letter and stating that I had a valid point and that he would be addressing or for the next print. I have no idea whether he did or not. I've still got that letter somewhere.
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In fairness to the author, Bendall Jr wasn't a director at that time. I don't doubt daddy bankrolled his tour of division three but he would have slummed it with the proles. And that is the only defence I could ever make of the least intelligent director of a European Cup-winning club in history.