Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Off Topic => Sports Arena => Topic started by: olaftab on January 05, 2017, 12:35:25 AM
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England's one dayers against India start on the 15 January (ok I know there is lot of cricket going on around the world as I write) so time for new thread.
There is also an ulterior motive here. Myself and a good mate have decided to go to Australia for the Ashes. We are planning to be there for the 4th and 5th test. The 4th starts, of course, on Boxing Day in MCG.
Anyway not having been to Australia before let alone an ashes series need some help here from those of you who have done that sort of thing. We are still exploring either joining an organised tour or sorting it all out ourselves so what are the do and don't lists and what would you advise is best course of action? Thank you.
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Wait, what? They're getting rid of the MCG?
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I expect a pit stop in Tokyo on your journey. It's strip clubs on me!
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I thought it's the WACA (Perth) which is holding it's last test in the next Ashes?
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I thought it's the WACA (Perth) which is holding it's last test in the next Ashes?
I think it is the WACA. The "G" holds iconic status in Aussie cricket, more than the SCG.
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The Times are reporting a possible increase in South African Kolpak players due to Brexit:
Brexit sparks Kolpak county rush
Richard Hobson, Deputy Cricket Correspondent
Uncertainty over Brexit has prompted an exodus of South Africa players to county cricket on Kolpak contracts, with more expected to agree terms before the start of the season. François Brink, who brokered Stiaan van Zyl’s move to Sussex, said that he advised the all-rounder to sign the three-year deal because the route may be shut once Britain leaves the EU.
Concerns within Cricket South Africa (CSA) at the loss of Test players have escalated amid reports that Kyle Abbott is close to joining Hampshire. CSA officials have sought talks with Weber van Wyk, Abbott’s representative, over the pace bowler, whose career has blossomed to the extent that he may spearhead the attack against England this summer.
Kolpak status precludes a player from representing his or her country and South Africa will be concerned over the future of Abbott, 29, who is opening the bowling in South Africa’s present Test against Sri Lanka.
As well as Van Zyl, who has played 12 Tests, the international pair of Hardus Viljoen and Simon Harmer have agreed Kolpak terms with Derbyshire and Essex respectively. Dane Piedt and Rilee Rossouw have been touted around the counties, while Stephen Cook, the Test opener, is also believed to be susceptible to approaches.
The director of cricket at one leading county reported a rush of interest from South African players and representatives at the end of last season before a quieter period leading into Christmas. “Brexit certainly made people ask questions,” he said. “There is a feeling, perhaps, that if you want that sort of player you should get him now.”
Brink, whose agency also manages Piedt, Vernon Philander, Ryan McLaren and Chris Morris, said: “When Stiaan was offered the chance to go as a Kolpak, we said, ‘Let’s take it because the opportunity may never come again.’ It was certainly a driver in his decision. Our advice to clients is that we have to keep Brexit in mind.
“Nobody knows what will happen, but I have to say that in all my time I have not met a South Africa player whose first ambition has not been to play for South Africa. You take that as far as you can, then adjust your targets accordingly.”
The “Kolpak” term comes from Maros Kolpak, a Slovakian handball player, whose victory in a Luxembourg court in 2003 allowed sportsmen from outside EU countries to be treated as though they were in the Union if their nation had a trade agreement.
An influx of South African cricketers abated when the ECB tightened regulations in 2009. To qualify since, a player must have either appeared in one Test during the previous two years, five in the past five, or in 15 white-ball internationals in two years. However, withdrawal from the EU may leave the Kolpak ruling redundant and block the route completely.
Other factors are also making moves attractive. The toughening of quotas in South Africa’s domestic game so that at least six non-white players feature in each franchise has reduced opportunities for white cricketers. Tony Irish, the chief executive of the South African Cricketers’ Association, also believes that soft currency is a factor.
“We pay in the Rand, which can devalue quite significantly from year to year,” he said. “If you go to England you are paid in pounds, and then dollars for the Twenty20 leagues overseas. A lot of players are going to where they are more valued financially. If there is a chance that Brexit will close the Kolpak loophole, you can see there might be this rush.”
In England, the Professional Cricketers’ Association is monitoring signings. David Leatherdale, the chief executive, said: “Immediately after Brexit, we looked at registrations and found 23 EU or Kolpak players out of 410,” he said. “If that suddenly grew to become an average of two or three per side it might become a concern.”
He suggested that the ECB’s Performance Related Fee Payments, which reward counties for fielding nine England-qualified players, will prevent a wave of imports.
An ECB spokesman said: “We await information on the legal situation post-Brexit and will need to hold detailed discussions with our stakeholders, the government and other sporting bodies before we can comment further.”
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It is the WACA - and in fact it may not even host this year as the build of the new ground is ahead of schedule (imagine that !). The current itinerary states Perth venue as TBA for both the test and one-dayer scheduled there.
In answer to the original post I have been to the ashes in Oz twice (independently) and planning to go again this year but to Brisbane and Adelaide as they're the 2 I've not been to. I would personally book flights and accommodation separately as I try to get a flat or house to rent some of the time rather than just hotels but it does require a bit of work. There are several tour operators with rights to sell trips and match tickets and they will provide something for all budgets but of course they aren't doing it for nothing. I've not used them personally but I am told Howzat Travel are pretty good and mid-range on price - if nothing else have a look at what they are offering as it will give an idea of likely cost etc.
However you do it I am sure you will enjoy although I fear we may be in for a hammering. If you decide to go for it and want more info I can probably help a bit.
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Yeah, I knew they were getting rid of the WACA. Silly idea for them, but good news for England, as the Aussies nearly always win there.
Getting rid of the MCG would be like the Romans deciding to build a new amphitheatre and knocking down the Colosseum.
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OK looks like mis info on MCG and that's not a very good start :-[
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I expect a pit stop in Tokyo on your journey. It's strip clubs on me!
Yes that would be nice. Didn't really do it justice on our last meeting in November.
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I expect a pit stop in Tokyo on your journey. It's strip clubs on me!
Yes that would be nice. Didn't really do it justice on our last meeting in November.
Haha. I'll start organising straight away. A happy new year to you mate. I'm currently up in Hokkaido with the in-laws working in their yakitori restaurant. Back to Tokyo tomorrow.
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Not sure how many players Hampshire have provided for England in recent years compared to Durham but I see they've signed two Koloa players.
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Not sure how many players Hampshire have provided for England in recent years compared to Durham but I see they've signed two Koloa players.
They are one of the leading "users" of Kolpak players and from what I'm reading there will be a few more Saffers joining the county game under the same rules.
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England won their warm up game against India A by three wickets. 93 for Sam Billings as they chased down 304 with a few balls to spare.
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Flicking through the channels and noticed that Ian Bell's Perth Scorchers were playing so decided to give it a watch.
Watched one ball, Bell out.
Turned over.
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I think Morgan has to score big runs in this series to retain his place. Both Billings and Bairstow merit a place in the side on runs and ability currently.
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Excellent by Stokes! He's hammered India's attack for 62 off 40 deliveries. Just out.
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350 at Pune is gettable for India so big 2 overs required.
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Bumrah can not be a legal bowler.
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Excellent delivery to get Rahul, drew him into the shot brilliantly.
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We've taken good wickets but we really need to slow the scoring down, if they're around 210-220 with 20 overs left I'd make them favourites unless we've picked up 2-3 more wickets.
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We really struggle to bowl at Virat Kohli.
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Need a wicket desperately.
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We really struggle to bowl at Virat Kohli.
We're scared of him and the nerves that creates means we bowl far too many in the slot for him. Woakes in the 32nd for example, he'd done well for 5, had Kohli on 99 and looking to score, that last delivery should've been short or full because Kohli was always going to look for the big hit.
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Ashwin goes 6 & 6 to finish it
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Good game of cricket first and foremost. I think we are probably a strike bowler short at the moment and were probably 20 runs short today.
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Kohli is just a beast. It's the one thing that Root needs to add to his game, regularly converting 70s and 80s into centuries.
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Kohli is just a beast. It's the one thing that Root needs to add to his game, regularly converting 70s and 80s into centuries.
Heard on commentary today that he averages over 50 in all three formats of the international game. To average over 50 in tests and 50 overs is excellent, but to average over 50 in T20s as well is something special.
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Sometime you have to just hold up your hands are say well done. Kohli is the best batsman in world cricket and he guided Yadav (?) through with him to a great run chase. Yes England could have done this or that different but so then too could have India. Just say welldone, we played well for the large part, and move on the the second ODI because we are well in this.
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Good start by England in the 2nd ODI
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Good start by England in the 2nd ODI
Will be interesting to see how India cope without Kohli's runs. He's scored the majority of their runs in all formats of the game for the last few months, particularly against England!
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We could do with another couple of wickets here, Yuvraj and Dhoni are looking well set.
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We could do with Stokes not throwing pies right now, his 4th over was rank. Ball has been just as bad.
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Has Woakes picked up an injury? He bowled a spell of 5-3-15-3 and yet at a stage of the game where we need to break a partnership and he's not getting a bowl.
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Has Woakes picked up an injury? He bowled a spell of 5-3-15-3 and yet at a stage of the game where we need to break a partnership and he's not getting a bowl.
Saving him for the death because the other quicks are leaking runs already I suspect
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India should comfortably get 370 and we are capable of chasing that down.
We are a good one day side but we are a couple of bowlers short of being a dominant one day side. We have had India under pressure in this game and also on Sunday. We don't have an attack that can capitalise on such situations.
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370 is a big ask when they're 268 with 9 left - 350 is probably closer
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That was a wonderful innings from Yuvraj.
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370 is a big ask when they're 268 with 9 left - 350 is probably closer
Ignore that, we've bowled even worse than I expected. 370 is pretty much in the bag now. This england bowling attack is terrible other than Woakes and Willey in the first 10 overs.
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Getting to 380 after being 25-3 is one hell of a performance.
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382 - we can get that with our batting line up but they need to ignore the scoreboard for 20-30 overs and just play their own game.
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Getting to 380 after being 25-3 is one hell of a performance.
They batted very well but we also bowled poorly, far too many deliveries in the slot for them to smash back over the bowlers head. That's the problem with having Ball, Plunkett and Stokes as your rotation bowlers, they're all too similar (and Willey too once the ball gets a bit old), Woakes is the only one of the quicks who can mix things up and his figures today highlight that perfectly.
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Losing Hales fairly early is a blow but we're in a good place so far, just need a good partnership or 2. We've got players who score naturally at 6-7 an over so if they just stick together and play their game we can look after 35-40 overs and go from there, if we get to that point with 6-7 wickets in hand then we'll be in touch.
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Brain fart from Root. Roy needs to take some responsibility here and push us on without doing anything silly and Morgan desperately needs a score. Something around a run a ball for the next 10 for this pair and then we can really go after them.
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mockers
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Awful from Stokes, getting out to a delivery like that is beneath him, he's in really poor form with the ball and he seems to have let it sneak into his batting as the tour has progressed.
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I think we're cooked, needed a score from Buttler. A few of the England players need to remember that they can leave ones behind their legs and get a run and an extra ball.
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Well we got closer than I thought we would. We really needed someone to get a big hundred but it didn't happen.
At times we bowled seemingly without a brain and there was some poor cricket from our batsman at times. Huge credit to Yuraj and Dhoni though who both played wonderful innings.
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The length of the bowling in the last 10-15 overs isn't good enough, too many deliveries that CAN be smashed out of the ground.
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Tough result, but really important knock from Morgan.
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the bowling needs to improve though, Woakes and Willey opened things birlliantly but all the threat disappeared once they were changed and India took it easy knowing hey could get a hatful at the end if they didn't give away wickets. I honestly think the problem is that the bowlers are just too samey. Once you've got settled against Ball you can face Stokes, Plunkett and Willey (outside the first 10 overs) knowing that there'll be bowling a similar line, length and pace. I'd keep Willey in and get him to bowl a long opening spell and Woakes and Ali have to stay but 2 of the other 3 need to be replaced or retrained if we want to start restricting teams.
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the bowling needs to improve though, Woakes and Willey opened things birlliantly but all the threat disappeared once they were changed and India took it easy knowing hey could get a hatful at the end if they didn't give away wickets. I honestly think the problem is that the bowlers are just too samey. Once you've got settled against Ball you can face Stokes, Plunkett and Willey (outside the first 10 overs) knowing that there'll be bowling a similar line, length and pace. I'd keep Willey in and get him to bowl a long opening spell and Woakes and Ali have to stay but 2 of the other 3 need to be replaced or retrained if we want to start restricting teams.
I'm not sure how much to take from it seeing as it in subcontinent conditions. I share your concerns regarding the bowling though and it concerns me that we don't really have any bowlers who can keep it tight in the middle overs. We are building towards the ICC trophy on home soil though and I don't think we are a million miles off being very competitive in that.
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I think Stokes as a one day bowler is starting to become a little bit of a luxury. He's a wonderful player and has that unique ability to make something happen. However he bowls far too many boundary balls and as a result he is pretty expensive. A player of his ability should not send down so many rank bad balls. Of course he's probably worth his place in the side for his batting and fielding alone.
We lack a bowler who can tie an end up and take the pressure off. We also lack a bowler who has the capability to break a partnership. We have needed to break partnerships in both of the ODI's against India and we couldn't do it before severe damage had been inflicted.
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Great cameo from Woakes at the end with 34 off 19 balls.
I think we're probably 20 runs short of a decent target and yet again none of our batsmen has capitalised on a good start and gone on to make a meaningful hundred.
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Kohli is one again starting to annoy me...but Rahul gone India 2 down.
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Really poor drop by Ball and Kohli is making the most of it. How often does someone in form get those sort of breaks?
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Mockers again, I'm getting good at this!
Still a big ask because yuvraj and dhoni are well capable of pushing them along.
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If Yuvraj sticks around for another 10 overs it's India's match.
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Nice one aftab, that saw him off. Anyone else want a go?
Ooo, Dhoni gone, we have to win this from here.
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This is a 20/20 dash now 78 from 50.
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Again we've bowled badly in the last 15.
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TF for that wicket. Well done Stokes.
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Jadhav finally runs out of luck and England win deservedly.
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Great game of cricket.
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Yes, excellent game.
I am really pleased for Chris Woakes.
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I think special credit needs to go to Woakes for that final over, he bowled a couple of loose ones for 6 and 4 so it takes some serious balls to then throw down 3 dots and a wicket delivery. If the whole squad can get that sort of mental strength then we'll be laughing.
Stokes also showed he's learned form the T20 and bowled a couple of really strong death overs. They were better today but I still think 1 from Ball or Plunkett is the way forward and given their ages I'd be looking to replace the latter asap. I like the 6 bowlers though and the batting ability of Stokes, Ali, Woakes and, to an extent, Willey means we're not losing anything with the bat to go with them and it means the choice should be entirely around their ability to take wickets but more importantly give Morgan some control. We have the opening bowling down with Woakes and Willey, they're regularly getting 2-3 wickets in the first 7-8 overs which is brilliant, but the game 'drifts' too much after that if the pitch isn't helping the other seamers.
Someone who can be our game changer in tougher conditions is the key, either by bowling 4-5 cheap overs or by taking big wickets. I'd have loved that person to be Mills, he looks perfect for it with the extra pace and his natural length, such a shame he can't play more than t20. Wood is an option but his injuries are worrying as well, I suspect he'll give it up himself in a few years as there's clearly an underlying issue.
I've been told to keep an eye on Matt Fisher from Yorkshire, he's captaining the U19 team in India later this month and is supposed to be seriously quick. Seem to remember someone telling me about a young leftie at Notts who looked good as well but I can't remember his name.
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I think special credit needs to go to Woakes for that final over, he bowled a couple of loose ones for 6 and 4 so it takes some serious balls to then throw down 3 dots and a wicket delivery. If the whole squad can get that sort of mental strength then we'll be laughing.
Stokes also showed he's learned form the T20 and bowled a couple of really strong death overs. They were better today but I still think 1 from Ball or Plunkett is the way forward and given their ages I'd be looking to replace the latter asap. I like the 6 bowlers though and the batting ability of Stokes, Ali, Woakes and, to an extent, Willey means we're not losing anything with the bat to go with them and it means the choice should be entirely around their ability to take wickets but more importantly give Morgan some control. We have the opening bowling down with Woakes and Willey, they're regularly getting 2-3 wickets in the first 7-8 overs which is brilliant, but the game 'drifts' too much after that if the pitch isn't helping the other seamers.
Someone who can be our game changer in tougher conditions is the key, either by bowling 4-5 cheap overs or by taking big wickets. I'd have loved that person to be Mills, he looks perfect for it with the extra pace and his natural length, such a shame he can't play more than t20. Wood is an option but his injuries are worrying as well, I suspect he'll give it up himself in a few years as there's clearly an underlying issue.
I've been told to keep an eye on Matt Fisher from Yorkshire, he's captaining the U19 team in India later this month and is supposed to be seriously quick. Seem to remember someone telling me about a young leftie at Notts who looked good as well but I can't remember his name.
Agree with a lot of that Paul. Good to get the win today and its been a pretty encouraging series on the whole seeing as it has been played in unfamiliar conditions.
The focus for the 50 over side is now the ICC Trophy in the summer. The batting line up looks pretty settled and therr are decent options in the likes Billings, Bairstow and Duckett. Like you, I don't think the balance of the bowling is quite right. I wonder whether Broad might come in especially for the tournament and am still holding out hope that Finn will come good.
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I enjoyed the BBL semi final yesterday. Johnson was unplayable and returned the best ever figures in the BBL, 4-2-3-3.
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I bet we still conceded.
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I enjoyed the BBL semi final yesterday. Johnson was unplayable and returned the best ever figures in the BBL, 4-2-3-3.
Second semi-final was a good one as well
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I bet we still conceded.
I see what you did there!
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Great spell from Mo in the t20 bowled out his 4 with 2-21
Over all we've taken important wickets at good times all through so far to keep them from getting a huge score. 106-5 after 15.
The pitch looks like a 170-180 for me, there's not a huge amount of demons in it, so I think they might struggle to make 'par' on here. Dhoni still in though so he's the key player right now.
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Great spell from Mo in the t20 bowled out his 4 with 2-21
Over all we've taken important wickets at good times all through so far to keep them from getting a huge score. 106-5 after 15.
The pitch looks like a 170-180 for me, there's not a huge amount of demons in it, so I think they might struggle to make 'par' on here. Dhoni still in though so he's the key player right now.
His strike rate in overs 16 - 20 is 168. They could still go big but we've bowled well. They started well and we have done well to restrict them.
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147-7 all done I reckon that's 25 short and they'll be very disappointed, teh spell from Ali and Stokes getting Raina just as he started to go big were the key moments for me.
Mills is blindingly quick and exactly what we're missing in the ODI team, such a shame he can't play the longer format.
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147-7 all done I reckon that's 25 short and they'll be very disappointed, teh spell from Ali and Stokes getting Raina just as he started to go big were the key moments for me.
Mills is blindingly quick and exactly what we're missing in the ODI team, such a shame he can't play the longer format.
I thought Jordan did well to turn the last over around. He went for 10 off the first three balls then bowled two dots which are valuable at any stage of a T20 innings, more so in the death overs.
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147-7 all done I reckon that's 25 short and they'll be very disappointed, teh spell from Ali and Stokes getting Raina just as he started to go big were the key moments for me.
Mills is blindingly quick and exactly what we're missing in the ODI team, such a shame he can't play the longer format.
I thought Jordan did well to turn the last over around. He went for 10 off the first three balls then bowled two dots which are valuable at any stage of a T20 innings, more so in the death overs.
absolutely, I think all the bowlers did well but the death bowling was made easier by the situation we'd put them into earlier.
This is a brilliant start by Billings, smashed the 2nd over for 20.
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Roy gone which is a shame but that's how to start a t20, 42-1 after 20 balls is insane, we've already got the chase down to around a run a ball.
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bugger, needed Billings to hang around a while whilst Root 'got in'. Still a brilliant start which has got us on the front foot but we've effectively just hit reset.
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Bloody spinners. Again!
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That's an emphatic victory with 11 balls to spare. A good all round performance.
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Credit where it's due, this is an absolutely superb performance.
Bowled brilliantly, top 4 batted superbly and judged their innings perfectly. Truly great t20 performance,
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Excellent today, brilliant start from Roy and Billings meaning that Root could just keep the scoreboard ticking while Morgan teed off.
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That's an emphatic victory with 11 balls to spare. A good all round performance.
In Twenty/20 that's like an innings win!
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That's an emphatic victory with 11 balls to spare. A good all round performance.
In Twenty/20 that's like an innings win!
As I said, we bowled them for 25-30 below par which is a massive advantage in this format, If we'd wanted too I think we had the batting to do it in 15-16 overs, remember we chased it easily with Root playing a holding role and Buttler watching from the side.
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Great performance today and Mills not closing the door on 50 over cricket is great news.
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Great performance today and Mills not closing the door on 50 over cricket is great news.
Have a balanced bowling attack and Mills doesn't have to bowl a full ten overs anyway, two bursts of four at either end of the innings should be okay for him.
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Great performance today and Mills not closing the door on 50 over cricket is great news.
Have a balanced bowling attack and Mills doesn't have to bowl a full ten overs anyway, two bursts of four at either end of the innings should be okay for him.
I'd hope so and he could give us what the ODI side is missing.
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I left work yesterday at the end of the Indian innings and for one of the first times I can remember I had absolutely no doubt that this England side would chase the total down woth ease. Paul e said that the Indians were 20 or 30 shy. Maybe so, but I would have backed us to get 20 or 30 runs comfortably had we have needed to.
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Great performance today and Mills not closing the door on 50 over cricket is great news.
Have a balanced bowling attack and Mills doesn't have to bowl a full ten overs anyway, two bursts of four at either end of the innings should be okay for him.
I'd hope so and he could give us what the ODI side is missing.
Agree Paul. That type of pace is very rare in English cricket (a left armer with that kind if pace is even more rare) and it is just such a shame that he has suffered so badly with injuries.
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I left work yesterday at the end of the Indian innings and for one of the first times I can remember I had absolutely no doubt that this England side would chase the total down woth ease. Paul e said that the Indians were 20 or 30 shy. Maybe so, but I would have backed us to get 20 or 30 runs comfortably had we have needed to.
Yeah in general there is a cold clinical edge to this England side when it chases. There are several players who you just feel will do the job and it's useful to have Morgan back in form.
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Great to see Gloucestershire and Warwickshire win the Big Bash
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And Yorkshire.
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Another good performance with the ball restricted India to 144-8 off their 20 overs. The last 5 overs went for 36 runs which is excellent death bowling in T20. It's an achievable target and I think India are probably 20 runs short of setting us a challenging target.
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Yes England bowling and fielding was good and with a little application from batsmen this is a win.
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Poor way to lose, as we bowled really well. Although a terrible umpiring decision cost us.
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Poor way to lose, as we bowled really well. Although a terrible umpiring decision cost us.
Technology is needed for big decisions. Shit umpiring for Roots dismissal.
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He fucked up some big calls when they were batting as well.
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Great game between Aus & NZ. Looked like the convicts had no chance but Marcus Stoinis hit an unbeaten 146 to get them close to victory only for Hazlewood to get run out backing up.
The 50 partnership for the 10th wicket come up without Hazlewood even facing a ball :o
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Poor way to lose, as we bowled really well. Although a terrible umpiring decision cost us.
Technology is needed for big decisions. Shit umpiring for Roots dismissal.
Turns out the umpire appointment was against the rules of the ICC, his appointment by India was within a restricted time period as he'd just finished umpiring in Australia a day or so earlier.
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Poor way to lose, as we bowled really well. Although a terrible umpiring decision cost us.
Technology is needed for big decisions. Shit umpiring for Roots dismissal.
Turns out the umpire appointment was against the rules of the ICC, his appointment by India was within a restricted time period as he'd just finished umpiring in Australia a day or so earlier.
Nothing the BCCI does surprises me. However regardless of whether he was suffering from jet lag or not, he is still a poor umpire.
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Kohli run out very early on, clearly his fault but he blamed Rahul at the non-strikers end.
Kohli is a marvellous player but strikes me as an arrogant prick. Dhoni always seemed magnanimous in victory and defeat so clearly Kohli needs to learn something from him before he becomes one of the most disliked players in world cricket.
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Well that was pretty poor.
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Well that was pretty poor.
That's the understatement of the year so far Paul! It was a woefully inadequate performance.
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8 for 8
Last six balls were WoW WoW
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8 for 8
Last six balls were WoW WoW
Glad no Warwickshire or Gloucestershire players were involved, tied up as they were with winning the Big Bash.
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There is currently time being lost in the SA vs SL ODI because of bees.
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The fuckers demonstrating about the price of honey again?
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Alastair Cook is standing down as captain.
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No shock, I expected him to announce that a month ago.
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Hope he can continue for a few years as a player.
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Hope he can continue for a few years as a player.
I think that's what the decision is about and I hope he's opening the batting for us to great effect for a few more years and without going in after a long day in the field with his head clearly not in the right place. Openng batsmen don't last as captain for all that long because combining the 2 jobs is mentally exhausting and Cook looked like he needed a break in the India tour. Keep him involved and working with Jennings, Hameed, Duckett and Billings and lets get a top 3 ready as the next generation.
I suspect Root is the obvious choice for the next captain and I think he'll be really good for it.
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Hope he can continue for a few years as a player.
Openng batsmen don't last as captain for all that long because combining the 2 jobs is mentally exhausting and Cook looked like he needed a break in the India tour.
Alastair Cook 59 matches as captain
Andrew Strauss 50 matches as captain
Michael Atherton 54 matches as cpatain
Graham Gooch 34 matches as captain
All openers and 4 of England's top 6 longest serving captain's.
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Hope he can continue for a few years as a player.
Openng batsmen don't last as captain for all that long because combining the 2 jobs is mentally exhausting and Cook looked like he needed a break in the India tour.
Alastair Cook 59 matches as captain
Andrew Strauss 50 matches as captain
Michael Atherton 54 matches as cpatain
Graham Gooch 34 matches as captain
All openers and 4 of England's top 6 longest serving captain's.
Indeed, and now look at their batting averages from before they got the role and series on series as captain, they all have a clear downward trajectory.
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Hope he can continue for a few years as a player.
Openng batsmen don't last as captain for all that long because combining the 2 jobs is mentally exhausting and Cook looked like he needed a break in the India tour.
Alastair Cook 59 matches as captain
Andrew Strauss 50 matches as captain
Michael Atherton 54 matches as cpatain
Graham Gooch 34 matches as captain
All openers and 4 of England's top 6 longest serving captain's.
Indeed, and now look at their batting averages from before they got the role and series on series as captain, they all have a clear downward trajectory.
Which is not what you said. Opening batsman actuallg seem to last longer than any other player as captain. Yes, their averages might have a clear downward trajectory but I'd suggest most captains of most countries have the same regardless of their batting position.
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Player Tests (as captain) Average as captain Average not as captain
David Gower 117 (32) 43.59 44.50
Mike Gatting 79 (23) 44.05 32.21
Graham Gooch 118 (34) 58.72 35.93
Alec Stewart 133 (15) 39.22 39.59
Mike Atherton 115 (54) 40.58 35.25
Nasser Hussain 96 (45) 36.04 38.10
Michael Vaughan 82 (51) 36.02 50.98
Andrew Flintoff 79 (11) 33.23 31.53
Andrew Strauss 100 (50) 40.76 41.04
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I also note the three longest serving test match captains are Graeme Smith, Allan Border and Stephen Fleming.
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the overall averages aren't so helpful because they're usually made captain because they're one of the best players so that form plays a part, it's the last 2-3 series before they step down/get sacked where they always seem to be under far too much pressure.
It might not be so clear in the stats but it's the impression I've always had.
Anyway, regardless of that I think it's right decision for Cook and I think it may prove to be the right decision for England as well.
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I agree that Cook stepping down as captain is the right thing to do at this time.
I hope he stays on for another few years yet, regaining near to the Ashes form of 2010/11.
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How do you view Cook's captaincy?
I thought that he started slowly and was too conservative. He grew into the job but never really lost the conservatism. I also thought he was a little tactically naive.
That said two Ashes wins and a series win last year in South Africa stand out. I also admire that way he stuck at it after the last Ashes series down under when things were chaotic.
He's not my favourite England captain. That honour go the Michael Vaughan due to the wonderful memories of 2005. It's such a pity that he's apparently an odious twat. I liked Strauss too. Those two were supreme tacticians.
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I think Cook did a lot of things right and there are definitely more positives than negatives from his time but he had a tendency to let games drift by defaulting to a defensive field and getting bowlers to concentrate on keeping the rate down rather than taking wickets if the pitch got flat. On top of that I think there's only been 4-5 bowlers that he's ever really trusted and his tactics in a lot of games were about how to get those bowlers the chances to take wickets rather than how can I use my entire attack to bowl this team out. The lack of any real strategy for the 30-60 over period is what has help him back, I think having Broad and Anderson made him a bit lazy in that regard because for huge parts of the day he knew he could throw the ball to them and they'd just make stuff happen and he didn't really need to force anything.
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Hope he can continue for a few years as a player.
Openng batsmen don't last as captain for all that long because combining the 2 jobs is mentally exhausting and Cook looked like he needed a break in the India tour.
Alastair Cook 59 matches as captain
Andrew Strauss 50 matches as captain
Michael Atherton 54 matches as cpatain
Graham Gooch 34 matches as captain
All openers and 4 of England's top 6 longest serving captain's.
Indeed, and now look at their batting averages from before they got the role and series on series as captain, they all have a clear downward trajectory.
Gooch went massively the other way from memory.
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Gooch had that great home series against India which made him but in the ashes series where he retired he looked utterly broken (him looking lost in that series is one of the most enduring memories I have of watching cricket as a teenager) but then came back and put in a few really good batting performances before he retired.
I think being a good captain without it affecting your own game requires a very specific mindset, partially that's about underlying personality but form/frame of mind/desire all play a part and those things change over time. There are very few captains in world cricket who bow out on top, either the game management or their own game falls away (or both). Cook has never been a great game manager anyway and in the last 2-3 series his flaws have been quite stark, that's why I firmly believe it's the right decision and I said as much towards the end of the test series. Good guy and great batsman but not the right captain for us any more.
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There are very few captains in world cricket who bow out on top, either the game management or their own game falls away (or both).
Nothing to do with captaincy, there are very, very few sportsmen and women in the world who bow out on top, captain or just in the ranks.
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There are very few captains in world cricket who bow out on top, either the game management or their own game falls away (or both).
Nothing to do with captaincy, there are very, very few sportsmen and women in the world who bow out on top, captain or just in the ranks.
yes, but even if their own game is fine a captain can hit a wall, as I think Cook has done, that's the point I was trying to make (but made a bit of a mess of).
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There are very few captains in world cricket who bow out on top, either the game management or their own game falls away (or both).
Nothing to do with captaincy, there are very, very few sportsmen and women in the world who bow out on top, captain or just in the ranks.
Elway & Manning in the NFL and Rosberg in F1 are recent ones that I can think of but, in general, you're correct
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Gooch had that great home series against India which made him but in the ashes series where he retired he looked utterly broken (him looking lost in that series is one of the most enduring memories I have of watching cricket as a teenager) but then came back and put in a few really good batting performances before he retired.
I think being a good captain without it affecting your own game requires a very specific mindset, partially that's about underlying personality but form/frame of mind/desire all play a part and those things change over time. There are very few captains in world cricket who bow out on top, either the game management or their own game falls away (or both). Cook has never been a great game manager anyway and in the last 2-3 series his flaws have been quite stark, that's why I firmly believe it's the right decision and I said as much towards the end of the test series. Good guy and great batsman but not the right captain for us any more.
That India series was in 1990. Over the next 4 years - he retired in 95 at the end of the ashes series in Aus- he scored 2839 runs post that India series and until his final tour. He had scored 7 test centuries and 10 half centuries over 6 series (including a one off test v Sri lanka). This is from roughly 35-40 innings and before a double century v New Zealand in 94 (he didn't have a good series then). his average also went up from around 41 to 44 post that India series. So, no, Gooch did more than have a good series against india - but yes his end was pretty quick.
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Gooch had that great home series against India which made him but in the ashes series where he retired he looked utterly broken (him looking lost in that series is one of the most enduring memories I have of watching cricket as a teenager) but then came back and put in a few really good batting performances before he retired.
I think being a good captain without it affecting your own game requires a very specific mindset, partially that's about underlying personality but form/frame of mind/desire all play a part and those things change over time. There are very few captains in world cricket who bow out on top, either the game management or their own game falls away (or both). Cook has never been a great game manager anyway and in the last 2-3 series his flaws have been quite stark, that's why I firmly believe it's the right decision and I said as much towards the end of the test series. Good guy and great batsman but not the right captain for us any more.
That India series was in 1990. Over the next 4 years - he retired in 95 at the end of the ashes series in Aus- he scored 2839 runs post that India series and until his final tour. He had scored 7 test centuries and 10 half centuries over 6 series (including a one off test v Sri lanka). This is from roughly 35-40 innings and before a double century v New Zealand in 94 (he didn't have a good series then). his average also went up from around 41 to 44 post that India series. So, no, Gooch did more than have a good series against india - but yes his end was pretty quick.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying, I didn't say the India series was all he did well, I said that series made him. What I was getting at was that he had a series that was almost perfect very quickly after getting the captaincy full time and it almost redefined him as a player. To get a series like that in his mid-thirties was a huge boost and he had the experience to really use that confidence.
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I agree that it made him - but I'd go further and say that he became the standard bearer for England openers, and wider batsman, in terms of the hunger for runs. The captaincy helped in that it came to him later and he relished the time he had and wanted to make runs to capitalise on what had come to him later. (The captaincy and the realisation that he revelled in responsibility). Which is why I'm not sure about Root - I tend to prefer the more experienced players in any sport being the captain. There are of course always exceptions in any sport - Smith for SA, Warburton at 22 for Wales, maybe even Beckham for England. Its also why the 'daddy hundred' concept worked for Gooch but again like any sport unless you have that fire to want to win and be successful you can't coach someone to be Gooch.
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Root has played 53 tests though and is the same age Cook was when he became captain (roughly). On top of that who else is there? Ignoring Cook there's only really Broad and Anderson with more experience than Root who are likely to start and I have an even bigger problem with opening bowlers being captains than I do opening batsmen. Whenever I've seen a quick bowler as captain they all fall 1 of 2 ways and either under bowl themselves or run themselves into the ground.
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Root has played 53 tests though and is the same age Cook was when he became captain (roughly). On top of that who else is there? Ignoring Cook there's only really Broad and Anderson with more experience than Root who are likely to start and I have an even bigger problem with opening bowlers being captains than I do opening batsmen. Whenever I've seen a quick bowler as captain they all fall 1 of 2 ways and either under bowl themselves or run themselves into the ground.
Maybe we had it right with Mike Brearley.
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At least captain Cook's abysmal run of defeats in final tests is now over.
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I'd like Stokes to get it out of the 3 options. Maybe even, and this is a left field one - Ali...
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Joe Root is the new Test captain
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/38954275
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Joe Root is the new Test captain
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/38954275
It's the logical appointment and I wish him well. I hope he is able to maintain his form though, we will miss his runs otherwise.
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One thing I reckon we will see with Root as captain is more of his bowling. He really fancies himself as a bowler but rarely gets a go, he can just bring himself on when he wants now.
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I'm ok with that, bringing a pie-chucker on for 1-2 overs as something different is what Cook just didn't like to do and it's why so often we'd drift in that 40-60 over period where the ball is too soft for swing and not scuffed enough to reverse. The plan, far too often, was Mo at one end and just cycle through the quicks opposite him to try to waste the overs as cheaply as possible. Remember Root has 15 wickets from the little 'fuck it' spells he'a been given so far so it's not a crazy idea to make him a bit more of a 'go to' partnership breaker.
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Didn't Root bring himself on in one game while Cook was off the field and take a couple of wickets ?
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Yes, against India in December.
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You've got to be proactive and try and break the rythmn and concentration of the set batsmen, especially when the new ball is still 20 overs away. You always get the odd part timer with a knack for breaking partnerships.
I really rated Cook; wins in India, Australia and South Africa is top stuff, but I agree he'd let things drift. Too often he'd set fields for the bad ball rather than going for the jugular. England are forever getting on top and letting it slip.
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The Eng Lions struggling in Sri Lanka - currently 219/8. 1st day of 4. Jennings out for 20 odd, Hameed 4.
No Warwickshire players.
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The Eng Lions struggling in Sri Lanka - currently 219/8. 1st day of 4. Jennings out for 20 odd, Hameed 4.
No Warwickshire players.
The Lions turned the game around pretty well. We scored 316 all out and bowled Sri Lanka A out for 167. We're 24-2 in our second innings and rain has stopped play. Hameed was out for a duck though.
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India are struggling against the Crims, 105 all out in a home test. They lost their last 7 wickets for 11 runs. A collapse of England-esque proportions!
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Why couldnt they have batted like that against us FFS! They were shocking.
Then they managed to have Smith dropped 3 times on his way to a horrible looking fifty. He looks like a club cricketer at times Smith, bloody horrible to watch, but always gets runs.
India were utterly dreadful today.
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India have been terrible, but the Aussie spinners have actually bowled well and having Starc shows the difference of having real pace in the attack.
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They rolled over in the second innings too, 107 all out.
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We're becoming too much of a bits and pieces test team. no real strike bowler anymore with bags of pace and the spinning option is extremely limited. The batting has become confused in knowing whether to stick or twist. The effect of 20/20 has shown itself negatively in the teat arena. There is more reasons (excuses) for the lack of a spin option but we are terrible here. Other than Swann and Panesar very sporadically, Tufnell a little bit, we haven't really produced spinners in this country since the 70s and maybe early 80s. The batting lacks character and leadership so hopefully having Root as captain will allow for a player to lead from the front as Cook seemed able to do only when he was playing well.
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We're becoming too much of a bits and pieces test team. no real strike bowler anymore with bags of pace and the spinning option is extremely limited. The batting has become confused in knowing whether to stick or twist. The effect of 20/20 has shown itself negatively in the teat arena. There is more reasons (excuses) for the lack of a spin option but we are terrible here. Other than Swann and Panesar very sporadically, Tufnell a little bit, we haven't really produced spinners in this country since the 70s and maybe early 80s. The batting lacks character and leadership so hopefully having Root as captain will allow for a player to lead from the front as Cook seemed able to do only when he was playing well.
Monty Panesar now Aussie spin bowling coach.....
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We haven't produced a top class spinner since the rules were changed about covering pitches.
I don't think T20 has been negative for test cricket in this country. In fact I'd say that it has brought about a massive improvement in the standards of fielding. Players are more athletic in the field now and gone are the days when you had to hide a lumbering fast bowler like Harmison out on the boundary.
We will have to ensure that tests and not T20 are still viewed as the pinnacle of the game in this country. Sadly that is not the case in other countries.
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Hales and Ball out injured for first ODI tomorrow.
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It looks like rain in Antigua will delay the start.
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Morgan is having a captains knock today.
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The bowling has been decent but this spell from Rashid is poor so far.
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Good to see Morgan has fully established his place now.
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I thing that our batting unit is better chasing a target than setting one so it was good to see them post a decent score.
I listened to most of the game on TMS and then watched the last 10 overs. It wasn't the same without Tony Cozier.
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India skittled again.
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The bowling has been decent but this spell from Rashid is poor so far.
We're still missing that strike bowler who can lead the attack. Only thing missing from the 50 over side at the moment.
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The bowling has been decent but this spell from Rashid is poor so far.
We're still missing that strike bowler who can lead the attack. Only thing missing from the 50 over side at the moment.
It's supposed to be Plunkett and he did the job yesterday but he's too inconsistent. To give Rashid credit he did improve and make a breakthrough but he sometimes seems to lose his concentration and throw a few down leg for very cheap runs.
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The bowling has been decent but this spell from Rashid is poor so far.
We're still missing that strike bowler who can lead the attack. Only thing missing from the 50 over side at the moment.
It's supposed to be Plunkett and he did the job yesterday but he's too inconsistent. To give Rashid credit he did improve and make a breakthrough but he sometimes seems to lose his concentration and throw a few down leg for very cheap runs.
To be fair, we probably haven't got one Paul. The two main candidates, Mills and Broad, don't play that format of the game.
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The bowling has been decent but this spell from Rashid is poor so far.
We're still missing that strike bowler who can lead the attack. Only thing missing from the 50 over side at the moment.
It's supposed to be Plunkett and he did the job yesterday but he's too inconsistent. To give Rashid credit he did improve and make a breakthrough but he sometimes seems to lose his concentration and throw a few down leg for very cheap runs.
To be fair, we probably haven't got one Paul. The two main candidates, Mills and Broad, don't play that format of the game.
I don't disagree, I really wanted Willey to become that player and I think he still might but he needs to learn how to make things happen after his first spell. Woakes, Stokes and Ali are 3 guaranteed starters for me and the good thing is they're all middle order players at this level for me so we can look for 9, 10 and 11 out and out bowlers for the other spots.
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India skittled again.
Brilliant bowling from Nathan Lyon. Nice to see India on the other side of a couple of unplayable spinners and kudos to the Convicts.
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Falling apart against spin again.
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Disappointing middle order collapse meant that the game was saved by one of our own.
Woakes batted with maturity and patience and completely out scored Root. The Windies were unlucky with an injury to Shannon Gabriel robbing them of a good bowler and it would have been interesting to see how the game would have progressed if he had bowled his quota.
Roy's knock at the top of the order was great and we bowled well but we were generally poor in the field. We are making progress and continue to build on the shambles that was the last 50 over World Cup. We are very close to being a very good one day team, we just need to be a little more consistent.
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I think my slight issue is the middle order of Stokes, Buttler and Ali. They're all very good players, but they are also players who when they're not in form look horrible.
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I think my slight issue is the middle order of Stokes, Buttler and Ali. They're all very good players, but they are also players who when they're not in form look horrible.
I think you have to consider Woakes as middle order as well and extend it to a 4 so you can create 3 very distinct groups in the team. You have the top 4 and generally we're looking for them to set things up and for at least 1 of them to get a big score. Then you have the 4 finishers in the middle who's primary job is to score quickly but also have a 2nd role to bring it back if we lose quick wickets. if 1 of them gets a 50 and the others score a handful we're generally competitive. Finally you have the bottom 3 who aren't expected to bat but, if needed, we want them to be able to score very quickly, Rashid and Plunkett very much fit that bill. We've won twice and both times at least 1 person from each of the 2 main groups has stood up and done their job. It's if 1 of those groups fails completely that we struggle.
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So, you mean like just about every cricket team?
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Australia in big trouble at 101-6 at tea on day four against India. Still need 87 to win.
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Kohli really does come across as lacking in any class on the pitch.
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I'll be surprised if a few players don't get into trouble here, Kohli, Smith, O'Keefe in particular while Starc got a major send off. Terrific Test match though.
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Kohli really does come across as lacking in any class on the pitch.
I can't stand him, good cricketer but comes across as an arsehole.
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Kohli really does come across as lacking in any class on the pitch.
I can't stand him, good cricketer but comes across as an arsehole.
He needs to take a few lessons from the MS Dhoni school of captaincy and diplomacy. Dhoni was competitive but captained with grace and style.
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Great knock from Hales developing here with Root going about his business at other end...Hales 85, Root 47 153/1 28.4 overs
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151 partnership off 155 Root 65 Hales 91 178/1 31.2
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Going well but the West Indies are a very poor team at the moment. Still, you can only beat what's in front of you and all that.
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Hales been given out LBW but reviewed and gets repreived....189/1 33.2 Hales 93 Root 75
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204/1 34.4 Hales 101 (99) Root 81(90)
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Superb knock from Hales from what I've seen, making it look very easy. The lbw he got reprieved for never looked right to me, I think it was a pretty poor decision, it was closer than I expected and was still missing by an inch or so.
Very good from Root as well who's had less fireworks but has kept up with the rate and supported Hales superbly.
Hales gone now for 110 I'd bring Buttler in now and tell him to have fun, which appears to be the decision they've made as well.
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Was hoping the situation would take the pressure off so Buttler could get a good knock but he's just not in good form at all, I really hope he can find something before the champions trophy because if he's in form for that I think we've got a great chance given it's in England.
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As a Cricket fan it always saddens me that Windies are a poor team. I first became obsessed with Cricket in the mid 1970s when they were at their most powerful. For 10 years or more they were a fantastic team and I idolised several of their players. I had posters of Viv Richards, Michael Holding, Joel Garner and Alvin Kallicharran on my bedroom wall next to my Villa posters. I never had an England player on my wall, not even Botham. Sir Viv is my favourite cricketer of all time.
I know that their best players don't play for them because of a dispute with the governing board but the game needs a strong West Indies side competing in all formats of the game.
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As a Cricket fan it always saddens me that Windies are a poor team.
Said as much to my bro earlier.
So sad.
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Chris Woakes player of the series. Well deserved
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As a Cricket fan it always saddens me that Windies are a poor team.
Said as much to my bro earlier.
So sad.
And very damaging to world cricket as well. Saying that, if you add Gayle, the two Bravos, Sammy, Samuels, Pollard, Russell and Narine to that team and it looks a very different side.
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Chris Woakes player of the series. Well deserved
Gave me a training top after the game as well when I asked him for a shirt for a fellow villan. Top lad who has vastly improved his game and fits well into international level
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As a Cricket fan it always saddens me that Windies are a poor team. I first became obsessed with Cricket in the mid 1970s when they were at their most powerful. For 10 years or more they were a fantastic team and I idolised several of their players. I had posters of Viv Richards, Michael Holding, Joel Garner and Alvin Kallicharran on my bedroom wall next to my Villa posters. I never had an England player on my wall, not even Botham. Sir Viv is my favourite cricketer of all time.
I know that their best players don't play for them because of a dispute with the governing board but the game needs a strong West Indies side competing in all formats of the game.
Agree - they're still my 2nd team after watching them in the late 70s and early 80s. brilliant fast bowling and ex[plosive with the bat. older 'youngsters' may believe that attacking cricket started with the Aussie team of Gilchrist, Waugh, Warne et al but they didn't. A test between the two teams in their pomp would have been excellent and it would be difficult to pick a winner because of the brilliant players on both sides. But for me the West indies shade it.
I wonder what a combined team would be like...
Greenidge
Haynes
Richards
M Waugh
S Waugh
Gilchrist
Logie
Warne
Holding
Marshall
Ambrose
maybe Walsh/Garner/McGrath for Logie.
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Chris Woakes player of the series. Well deserved
Developing into a genuine all-rounder now.
England are a proper spinner away from being a top class ODI side just now, when Bairstow can't find a place in the side you know you are looking good.
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Chris Woakes player of the series. Well deserved
Developing into a genuine all-rounder now.
England are a proper spinner away from being a top class ODI side just now, when Bairstow can't find a place in the side you know you are looking good.
Not sure about a top class spinner, as in ODI you can probably get away with one who can keep it tight for ten overs (unless you are in the sub continent). I think what we are missing is the 'destroyer' type who can come on and bowl short, explosive spells. Such a shame Mills has the injury problems he does, as he would be ideal.
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I think we're missing a couple of top class bowlers in general. Plunkett and Rashid do an ok job but if we could replace them with a spinner who can keep it tight or take wickets and a quickie who can really scare teams then we'd be as good as anyone in the world.
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I think we're missing a couple of top class bowlers in general. Plunkett and Rashid do an ok job but if we could replace them with a spinner who can keep it tight or take wickets and a quickie who can really scare teams then we'd be as good as anyone in the world.
Agree with that Paul. Rashid has a bit of that 'X-Factor', but is also quite expensive in the limited overs game. The seam bowling is all just a bit the same and although they are fine bowlers in their own rights, we could do with something a bit different.
That said, for the first time I can remember we'll be going into a tournament with a settled
ODI side that have been winning on a pretty regular basis. Home conditions as well means we should really be among the favourites.
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As a Cricket fan it always saddens me that Windies are a poor team. I first became obsessed with Cricket in the mid 1970s when they were at their most powerful. For 10 years or more they were a fantastic team and I idolised several of their players. I had posters of Viv Richards, Michael Holding, Joel Garner and Alvin Kallicharran on my bedroom wall next to my Villa posters. I never had an England player on my wall, not even Botham. Sir Viv is my favourite cricketer of all time.
I know that their best players don't play for them because of a dispute with the governing board but the game needs a strong West Indies side competing in all formats of the game.
Agree - they're still my 2nd team after watching them in the late 70s and early 80s. brilliant fast bowling and ex[plosive with the bat. older 'youngsters' may believe that attacking cricket started with the Aussie team of Gilchrist, Waugh, Warne et al but they didn't. A test between the two teams in their pomp would have been excellent and it would be difficult to pick a winner because of the brilliant players on both sides. But for me the West indies shade it.
I wonder what a combined team would be like...
Greenidge
Haynes
Richards
M Waugh
S Waugh
Gilchrist
Logie
Warne
Holding
Marshall
Ambrose
maybe Walsh/Garner/McGrath for Logie.
I know you guys don't like Ponting, but he strolls into that combined side. He's miles ahead of the younger Waugh certainly, or Logie (at least just looking at his average). Likewise, I'm not sure Hayden isn't the best opener available either, as good as Greenidge and Haynes are.
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Forgot about Ponting in all honesty. He goes in for M Waugh. Logie was in for the times he had to come in and counter attack. but no need for him with Gilchrist. Hayden's not getting in though.
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We'll have to agree to disagree about Hayden - distinctly better record, and he scored runs everywhere he went. Actually, there's basically no justification for taking Haynes over him apart from thinking he was a prick. This is all ignoring Langer, who isn't exactly a mile behind those three.
Hayden, Greenidge, Ponting, Richards, S Waugh, Richardson, Gilchrist, Warne, Garner, Marshall, Ambrose for me, though you can basically pick whoever you want from those fast bowlers.
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I know Hayden had the better average but I'd take Slater over Hayden if you want a really attacking opener.
IMO Slater had to face better opening partnerships as the Windies attack of Walsh and Ambrose, Donald and Pollock for the Saffas, Gough and Malcolm/Caddick, Shoab Aktar, Wasim and Waquar for Pakistan all in their prime.
Don't think Hayden's record in England was that flash either, a bit like Doug Walters for those of a certain vintage. Top player for sure but his era was one of playing against more modest attacks in comparison to Slater/Taylor partnership who had truly great bowling partnerships around.
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I wouldn't leave McGrath out, I'd have him ahead of Ambrose but it's a tough call.
He shades it for me because of his nagging accuracy. He was an intelligent bowler and he would pile the pressure on making the batsmen take more risks at the other end again Warne, Marshall and co.
Sir Curtly was a wonderful bowler but a player called McGrath should be in a H&V Aussie/Windies combined XI!
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Good call for McGrath. Okay he goes in. I did consider Slater as I was always a fan but his career didn't go on for long enough. So he's dropped. Unless I hear a better option Greenidge and Haynes are still opening. Unfortunately for his fans, and I don't care either way about him Hayden still doesn't get a look in.
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I know Hayden had the better average but I'd take Slater over Hayden if you want a really attacking opener.
IMO Slater had to face better opening partnerships as the Windies attack of Walsh and Ambrose, Donald and Pollock for the Saffas, Gough and Malcolm/Caddick, Shoab Aktar, Wasim and Waquar for Pakistan all in their prime.
Don't think Hayden's record in England was that flash either, a bit like Doug Walters for those of a certain vintage. Top player for sure but his era was one of playing against more modest attacks in comparison to Slater/Taylor partnership who had truly great bowling partnerships around.
I think it's a fair point about bowling attacks generally being better in the 90s, particularly with fast bowlers, but I don't think it's enough to cover the differences in their records. The record in England thing - well, I bet every batsman has a place where their average looks a little more spotty than usual.
Just in the Haynes v Hayden discussion though, I'm too young really to think of the 1980s being one filled with great bowlers outside of the Windies either - some individuals like Imran, Hadlee, and the tail ends of Lillee and Willis, but doesn't seem like a huge difference there.
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I was firmly in the Hayden camp until I compared their respective records.
Desmond Haynes: http://www.espncricinfo.com/westindies/content/player/52047.html
Matthew Hayden: http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/5616.html
It's always subjective to compare players from different eras, but Haynes' stats are remarkable given the limited amount on limited overs Cricket that was played in those days.
Interestingly enough Hayden's test record is better than Haynes record. I'd have definitely said that would be the other way around.
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Surrey and England all-rounder Zafar Ansari has announced his retirement from all cricket with immediate effect.
He has been with Surrey since the age of eight and recently made his Test debut for England, playing against Bangladesh in October.
"While the timing may come as a surprise, I have always maintained that cricket was just one part of my life and that I have other ambitions that I want to fulfil," said the 25-year-old.
"With that in mind, I am now exploring another career, potentially in law, and to achieve this I have to begin the process now."
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Quite odd. I would have thought he could have balanced preparing for a career in law with cricket.
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Ansari, who has a double first in politics, philosophy and sociology from Cambridge University and a Master's degree in history from Royal Holloway
I think it's safe to say that Zafar is an intelligent chap
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Northants v Bears today at 1230 on Sky, for those of you lucky enough not to be at work.
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Northants v Bears today at 1230 on Sky, for those of you lucky enough not to be at work.
Or those that work from home and quite like some background noise/distraction.
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Pakistan batting like Warwickshire! 36 for 7.
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The New England kits for both formats of white ball cricket are horrible. As a traditionalist, it's nice to see them return to cable-knit sweaters for the test kit though.
http://store.ecb.co.uk
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The New England kits for both formats of white ball cricket are horrible. As a traditionalist, it's nice to see them return to cable-knit sweaters for the test kit though.
http://store.ecb.co.uk
I saw that T20 one yesterday, a true abomination.
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Aggers just said he got a handjob referring to a hand operation.
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If the first game was a little one sided, then that today was a useful warm up exercise. The games against South Africa will tell us more, but we look in good shape going into the ICC tournament, especially when you consider who has got to come back into the side.
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We're a fine side, we had two of our absolute key players not playing.
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We're a fine side, we had two of our absolute key players not playing.
My only two concerns in the big games Paul are not having a spinner who is a threat but also keep things tight when necessary and a genuine strike bowler (though hopefully Wood can become one with a run of games). The rest is looking in very good shape.
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We're a fine side, we had two of our absolute key players not playing.
I'd say 3 and they're all genuine all rounders who can bat, bowl and, most importantly are great in the field, the latter of which is a difference of 15-20 runs a game at this level and wins you matches.
Billings, Ball and Willey (who are all very good players) making way for Stokes, Ali and Woakes pushes us up another level.
The only other possible change is Bairstow for Buttler but I don't know if that makes much of a difference to us becuase they're both world class, just in slightly different ways.
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Hales
Roy
Root
Morgan
Buttler
Bairstow
Stokes
Woakes
Rashid/Ali (dep on pitch)
Wood (if injury free) or Plunkett
Finn or Willey or Ball
That we have so many options is frightening.
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What I really like about this ODI side is that we can put out 6 frontline bowlers and still bat down to 9 or 10. That's why I'd go with Ali and Rashid instead of 1 of them and Buttler. The issue otherwise is that Root is the 6th bowler and whilst he is a very good part-time option I'm not sure he should be the only alternative if someone has a bad day/picks up an injury when we don't need to put ourselves in that position.
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What I really like about this ODI side is that we can put out 6 frontline bowlers and still bat down to 9 or 10. That's why I'd go with Ali and Rashid instead of 1 of them and Buttler. The issue otherwise is that Root is the 6th bowler and whilst he is a very good part-time option I'm not sure he should be the only alternative if someone has a bad day/picks up an injury when we don't need to put ourselves in that position.
I agree Ali and Rashid play for me.
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What I really like about this ODI side is that we can put out 6 frontline bowlers and still bat down to 9 or 10. That's why I'd go with Ali and Rashid instead of 1 of them and Buttler. The issue otherwise is that Root is the 6th bowler and whilst he is a very good part-time option I'm not sure he should be the only alternative if someone has a bad day/picks up an injury when we don't need to put ourselves in that position.
Buttler would play as a frontline batsman anyway Paul. Top six of Hales, Roy, Root, Morgan, Buttler and Stokes is pretty settled, so I would say seven might be between Billings, Bairstow and Ali. The only thing I would say about two spinners is that the ICC tournament is early next month and conditions won't be that spinner friendly. We might therefore see one of Rashid or Ali and an extra seamer (Woakes and Wood probably definites so two from Willey, Finn and Ball maybe).
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I reckon it will be spinner friendly, it has been a very dry year.
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What I really like about this ODI side is that we can put out 6 frontline bowlers and still bat down to 9 or 10. That's why I'd go with Ali and Rashid instead of 1 of them and Buttler. The issue otherwise is that Root is the 6th bowler and whilst he is a very good part-time option I'm not sure he should be the only alternative if someone has a bad day/picks up an injury when we don't need to put ourselves in that position.
Buttler would play as a frontline batsman anyway Paul. Top six of Hales, Roy, Root, Morgan, Buttler and Stokes is pretty settled, so I would say seven might be between Billings, Bairstow and Ali. The only thing I would say about two spinners is that the ICC tournament is early next month and conditions won't be that spinner friendly. We might therefore see one of Rashid or Ali and an extra seamer (Woakes and Wood probably definites so two from Willey, Finn and Ball maybe).
For Buttler you can also sub in Bairstow (billings is a different case for me) so you can go with 6 frontline bowlers and Root and pick between Buttler or Bairstow or you can go with 5 frontline bowlers and Root and pick both. My point is that I think we're a stronger, in most circumstances, with the extra bowler and if that means 3-4 of them only bowl 6-8 overs then that's ok, so long as the choices on the day are sensible. It's not often that our ODI side sees someone like Roy, Hales or Root left hanging at one end whilst wickets fall so I'm not convinced the value of the extra batsman. I honestly believe that the only reason there's even a discussion to be had is because leaving out one Bairstow or Buttler feels wrong. I'd love to fit them both in but I just don't see how, if he wasn't such a good captain I'd be tempted to suggest Bairstow at 4 ahead of Morgan but even that means leaving out a very good ODI batsman.
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The temptation of that extra bat is that nowadays 350 is a score that is gettable. Therefore, batting deep is more desirable than playing bowlers that are good with the bat. Depends on the conditions on the day of course but the thought of getting up to 400 is no longer a pipe dream for many teams which is why I concentrate on the batting side first and filling the bowlers next.
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I think think the team I suggested is easily capable of 350+ that's the point really, I don't think we lose as many runs as we gain by being able to mix up the bowling a little more if someone is struggling.
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And given how shite Villa and Warwickshire are how refreshing it is to see England having problems like whether to be happy with 350 or 400+ in 50 over games.
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To be a little controversial I would drop Morgan and bat Bairstowe at four. I would rather have Bairstowe coming in at 13/2 than Morgan Buttler or Stokes. I think Billings is suited at 7.
I would play Willey come what may, he's left handed and swings the white ball regularly, something none of the right handed seamers do in a regular basis
So
Hales
Roy
Root
Bairstowe
Stokes
Buttler
Billings/Rashid (Rashid bats at 8 and Ali at 7)
Ali
Woakes
Wiley
Wood
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To be a little controversial I would drop Morgan and bat Bairstowe at four. I would rather have Bairstowe coming in at 13/2 than Morgan Buttler or Stokes. I think Billings is suited at 7.
I would play Willey come what may, he's left handed and swings the white ball regularly, something none of the right handed seamers do in a regular basis
So
Hales
Roy
Root
Bairstowe
Stokes
Buttler
Billings/Rashid (Rashid bats at 8 and Ali at 7)
Ali
Woakes
Wiley
Wood
So who is your Captain?
I think Morgan is a great one day Captain and leads his team well. He has that quality that Vaughan had in that he makes things happen with intelligent field placings and sensible bowling changes. He is also one of our most reliable nurdlers. For all of your big hitters, you need a reliable batsman to score ugly runs. Particularly at 13-2.
Bairstow is a great player but maybe we need to give him a rest from some Cricket, I can see the same happening with Root.
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All about opinions of course, but for me Morgan and Buttler are cemented in at four and five in the side. For me, it comes to the choice of whether we go with two spinners or not really. Ali at seven is a good option, so it's probably down to whether Rashid plays as well.
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To be a little controversial I would drop Morgan and bat Bairstowe at four. I would rather have Bairstowe coming in at 13/2 than Morgan Buttler or Stokes. I think Billings is suited at 7.
I would play Willey come what may, he's left handed and swings the white ball regularly, something none of the right handed seamers do in a regular basis
So
Hales
Roy
Root
Bairstowe
Stokes
Buttler
Billings/Rashid (Rashid bats at 8 and Ali at 7)
Ali
Woakes
Wiley
Wood
So who is your Captain?
I think Morgan is a great one day Captain and leads his team well. He has that quality that Vaughan had in that he makes things happen with intelligent field placings and sensible bowling changes. He is also one of our most reliable nurdlers. For all of your big hitters, you need a reliable batsman to score ugly runs. Particularly at 13-2.
Bairstow is a great player but maybe we need to give him a rest from some Cricket, I can see the same happening with Root.
Simple answer to the captaincy question is Buttler. Of course he captained the side with some success in Bangladesh. We have the England test captain and vice captain in the side for insurance purposes.
As for Morgan steadying the ship and scoring ugly runs before his 100 in January of this year in the last 20 ODI innings proir to that he'd got past 50 twice coming in at 283/3 and 35/2 respectively.
It's all about opinions as has been said, and in my opinion Morgan is the weakest link in a strong batting line up. Whilst a decent on the field captain he is not irreplaceable. He has done more off the field by the change in mind set and approach to the game by an England team. That approach has been established now.
Nice problems to have though.
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Morgan should stay he's in form and he's been a key figure in England's turnaround.
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I think there is little doubt Morgan will stay for the tournament. However I don't think that he figures in our strongest line up in my view.
I agree he's been instrumental in the turn around both on and off the pitch. However i just think he takes the place of a better batsman in the team. Bairstowe should be in there but as we stand at the moment he cannot be squeezed into the side if Morgan plays.
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I think there is little doubt Morgan will stay for the tournament. However I don't think that he figures in our strongest line up in my view.
I agree he's been instrumental in the turn around both on and off the pitch. However i just think he takes the place of a better batsman in the team. Bairstowe should be in there but as we stand at the moment he cannot be squeezed into the side if Morgan plays.
I think the team would be weaker without Morgan's leadership. He kept the captaincy after choosing not to tour Bangladesh and I think he will lead us in to the next 50 over World Cup in 2019. He's an intelligent Captain and appears to know what makes the individuals tick. You could select another hitter at the top of the order but a nurdler like Morgan is vital to the success of the side in all conditions. Sometimes it's the ugly runs that win games not the power shots from the likes Hales, Roy and Buttler.
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Amazingly tense end to the Windies Pakistan test. Pakistan win with one over to go. Misbah and Younus bow out with a win. An incredibly stupid thrash by Gabriel at Yasir's last ball to play on.
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This is the first year I've really followed the IPL and it's been ace.
The final on SKY now.
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This is the first year I've really followed the IPL and it's been ace.
The final on SKY now.
Last year I watched it passively, as my wife became inexplicably hooked during her illness. This year, I've watched actively due to the English players and supported KKR for Chris Woakes (bowled well, hardly batted), though following RPS was fun dipped to Stokes batting/bowling/catching exploits.
Final's turning into a bit of a damp squib though.
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More excitingly, 11 off 6 balls for RPS.
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7 off 3 Johnson (spit) on a hat trick.
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Mumbai by one run. Good stuff.
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Scotland beat Sri Lanka. Doesn't count as an ODI as stadium doesn't have international status, but impressive nonetheless.
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That's very good. Was it Sri Lankan first XI or near enough first XI? Either case impressive.
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Pretty much, I think. It's a warm up for the Champions Trophy so they'd all have been players who are at least under consideration for a starting spot.
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Should be a good game today, England back to full strength now the IPL players have returned against a SA side with world class players.
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Should be a good game today, England back to full strength now the IPL players have returned against a SA side with world class players.
This will be a good test for us and should let us gauge what chances we have in the Champions Trophy.
Saffers won the toss and have put us in.
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So this is the 11 I'd go with (although as I said Buttler and Bairstow is a coin toss) and I hope they show why this is the right balance for us. I love us having 6 genuine frontline bowlers and Root in reserve, that's the real advantage to having so many genuine all rounders.
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England playing today? Shiiiiiit - missed that. Well i haven't but I would've.
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After losing Jason Roy cheaply England progressing quite nicely at 47/1 off 7
Incidentally is anyone interested in 1 ticket for Friday 2nd June at Edgbaston for New Zealand v Australia....would ideally suit a drinker
as seat is Block 9 Row W Seat 13 basically just outside the door to the David Heath suite. Price £50.That is actual ticket price.
The only downside though is you will be sat next to me.
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Root gone playing at a bouncer.
England 122-3 off 22 overs.
Stokes new man in.
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339-6 is a decent effort. Hales whacked them at the start, Morgan in the middle and Moeen at the end.
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Nice bowling from Plunkett. I'd still have ZAF still slight favourites from here though. de Villiers quite clearly crucial.
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Morgan and Mo showed their value.
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Could end up being a close finish.
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AB out, England should win from here.
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Win? We should walk this.
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Excellent all round performance there. Put together a couple of good stands and had the batting depth to be able to shrug off a couple of cheap wickets and still get the now seemingly mandatory 10 per over off the last 10. Saffers are normally better in the field mind.
Bowling was disciplined as well, when a side is 140-1, especially one with batsmen as destructive as SA, it could have been easy to panic in a desperate attempt to get wickets, we didn't.
We have a definite chance in the Champions Trophy.
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I think this side is perfectly balanced. If we can just get Roy into form we'll be flying.
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Very good win against good opposition. I know i have said Morgan shouldn't be in the side but yesterday he proved me wrong with that performance. I still think he is suspect under pressure but you cannot argue with the batting display yesterday. 100/2 gave him the platform to perform.
Think they'll rest Stokes for the rest of the series?
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Not so sure, but there's no harm in throwing Bairstow in in the final game, or Billings, if we're 2 up.
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Stokes seemed to be carrying an injury in the IPL from what i saw. He only bowled two overs yesterday and the [relatively] simple catch he dropped seems to all go to show hes not 100%. A simple three game series I might rest him for the last game but with the tournament coming up immediately on its heels i think they may leave him out for games two and three. We will see.
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Stokes seemed to be carrying an injury in the IPL from what i saw. He only bowled two overs yesterday and the [relatively] simple catch he dropped seems to all go to show hes not 100%. A simple three game series I might rest him for the last game but with the tournament coming up immediately on its heels i think they may leave him out for games two and three. We will see.
I agree, he seemed slightly off with the bat as well, he just seemed uncomfortable.
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Stokes is very much needed in the tournament, so they should be protecting him.
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Stokes is very much needed in the tournament, so they should be protecting him.
Agree, but him missing does alter the balance of the side a bit be cause you lose his bowling. Bairstow or Billings could replace his batting at six, but you would have to lose that fourth seamer or second spinner.
Another good win the other day though and we do look a strong side going into this tournament.
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If anyone looking for a cricket fix this weekend there are three ICC trophy warm up games at Edgbaston this weekend with:
Bangladesh v Pakiston Saturday 27/05
Australia v Pakistan Bank Holiday monday 29/05
New Zealand v Sri Lanka Tuesday 30th
All of these games commence at10:30 and is free admission to Bears members and are only £10 or £15 to public which is great value,
and just £1 for U16's.
I will certainly be going Mon & Tue especially if sun out. There are a few isolated showers but.....still worth it.
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If anyone looking for a cricket fix this weekend there are three ICC trophy warm up games at Edgbaston this weekend with:
Bangladesh v Pakiston Saturday 27/05
Australia v Pakistan Bank Holiday monday 29/05
New Zealand v Sri Lanka Tuesday 30th
All of these games commence at10:30 and is free admission to Bears members and are only £10 or £15 to public which is great value,
and just £1 for U16's.
I will certainly be going Mon & Tue especially if sun out. There are a few isolated showers but.....still worth it.
Thanks for that info PGW. I had no idea that these games were on, and I must get 3 or 4 emails per week from the club!
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If anyone looking for a cricket fix this weekend there are three ICC trophy warm up games at Edgbaston this weekend with:
Bangladesh v Pakiston Saturday 27/05
Australia v Pakistan Bank Holiday monday 29/05
New Zealand v Sri Lanka Tuesday 30th
All of these games commence at10:30 and is free admission to Bears members and are only £10 or £15 to public which is great value,
and just £1 for U16's.
I will certainly be going Mon & Tue especially if sun out. There are a few isolated showers but.....still worth it.
Thanks for that info PGW. I had no idea that these games were on, and I must get 3 or 4 emails per week from the club!
http://www.edgbaston.com/news/spectator-guide-icc-champions-trophy-warm-up-games/
Details
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Excellent, should be able to do the Tuesday.
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Looking forward to a day in the garden with TMS on the radio. It's sunny now and so the forecast rain can feck right off.
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England lost toss and have been put in. Currently 12/03.4
No Woakes...injured ..Quad strain not too serious but rested as a consequence. Jake Ball in to replace him.
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12/1
Roy b Rabada 8
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Bangladesh looking at a big score at Edgbaston
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Stokes 100 off 77 balls. Hashim Amla dropped him on 0
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Stokes 100 off 77 balls. Hashim Amla dropped him on 0
And out for 101
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England will be pig sick if they don't win the Champions Trophy. They're all over SA here.
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Incredible last over from Wood to win the game.
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England to win without Woakes and only 3 overs from Stokes is some effort! Great finish and we'll done to Mark Wood!
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This team really has something.
What a wonderful last over from Mark Wood, he handled the pressure so well.
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Stokes is so important for this side I'd rotate in next game.
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Stokes is so important for this side I'd rotate in next game.
I think so long as we have 2 out of Stokes, Moeen and Woakes we're in a good position because they all 'bring it' in all aspects of the game.
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Great win again, I wish my team had won today.
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Stokes is so important for this side I'd rotate in next game.
I think so long as we have 2 out of Stokes, Moeen and Woakes we're in a good position because they all 'bring it' in all aspects of the game.
Woakes and Ali are very important, but Stokes is arguably the best all rounder in the world. We're a very different side without him.
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Stokes is so important for this side I'd rotate in next game.
I think so long as we have 2 out of Stokes, Moeen and Woakes we're in a good position because they all 'bring it' in all aspects of the game.
Woakes and Ali are very important, but Stokes is arguably the best all rounder in the world. We're a very different side without him.
I still don't think He's a good enough bowler to deserve that title. I think the gap between him and Woakes is very small with Stokes as the batting all rounder and Woakes as the bowling all rounder. Ali is a tough one because with both bat and ball he can be very inconsistent, at his best he's world class with both but he seems to lack something to take the final step to genuine greatness, he's still a seriously important player for England though.
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I like Woakes and think he's made himself a really important player, but Stokes has more of that intangible x-factor and has more potential for growth. When he's not playing for England they lose a huge amount of balance.
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Stokes is so important for this side I'd rotate in next game.
I think so long as we have 2 out of Stokes, Moeen and Woakes we're in a good position because they all 'bring it' in all aspects of the game.
Woakes and Ali are very important, but Stokes is arguably the best all rounder in the world. We're a very different side without him.
Agree, as having Stokes out upsets the whole balance of the side. Woakes out just means moving Rashid to 8, Plunkett to 9 and bringing in an extra bowler. Similarly, no Ali could mean playing an extra batsman at seven and using Root as a second spin option or moving Woakes to seven, the others up one place and bringing in another spinner. The team probably wouldn't be a strong if either of those two were absent but the make up of the balance of the side wouldn't be too impacted. Losing Stokes would completely unbalance the side.
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Stokes is so important for this side I'd rotate in next game.
I think so long as we have 2 out of Stokes, Moeen and Woakes we're in a good position because they all 'bring it' in all aspects of the game.
Woakes and Ali are very important, but Stokes is arguably the best all rounder in the world. We're a very different side without him.
Agree, as having Stokes out upsets the whole balance of the side. Woakes out just means moving Rashid to 8, Plunkett to 9 and bringing in an extra bowler. Similarly, no Ali could mean playing an extra batsman at seven and using Root as a second spin option or moving Woakes to seven, the others up one place and bringing in another spinner. The team probably wouldn't be a strong if either of those two were absent but the make up of the balance of the side wouldn't be too impacted. Losing Stokes would completely unbalance the side.
I thought we missed Woakes yesterday. He is an economical bowler at this level and he applies control and bowls wicket taking balls not just in the power plays but also during the rest of his spell. For me, he has become the perfect one day bowler; economy, wickets and control.
The Saffers must be kicking themselves, the game was there for the taking and they threw it away. For a side with so many class players they do seem to struggle to finish games off.
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We definitely missed Woakes as he's made himself a key player in the side, likewise I think Ali is a key player too. But I think if I were to say who is the most important player to the side it'd be Stokes for me.
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We definitely missed Woakes as he's made himself a key player in the side, likewise I think Ali is a key player too. But I think if I were to say who is the most important player to the side it'd be Stokes for me.
Reports this morning that he's having a scan on his knee. Now that might be precautionary but it doesn't bode well for the Champions Trophy.
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Ali, Stokes and Woakes have been rested ahead of tomorrow's ODI with Stephen Finn, Liam Dawson and Toby Roland-Jones called up as replacements.
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We definitely missed Woakes as he's made himself a key player in the side, likewise I think Ali is a key player too. But I think if I were to say who is the most important player to the side it'd be Stokes for me.
Agree. Woakes and Ali are better than any of the replacements out there, bug replacing them doesn't alter the balance of the side too much. Replacing Stokes definitely would.
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The Saffers have one the toss and we are batting.
Wood, Plunkett, Stokes and Ali are rested/injured and Bairstow, Willey, Finn and Roland-Jones play.
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A good toss for SA to win, England 15-4 off 4.1 overs.
Hales played a very poor shot, a waft outside off stump but the other three were good balls on a cloudy morning when batting at Lords can be difficult.
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20-5........
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20-6.........car crash cricket and Rabada on a hat trick.
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At this rate they could play two games today.
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Bairstow and TRJ leading a fight back
Clean forgot about the game. I could have listened driving back from London today
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20-6.........car crash cricket and Rabada on a hat trick.
That is the point at which I switched on the TV and promptly switched it off again. A decent recovery but it will need a major screw up for SA to lose from here.
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Need to hit the ground running today. Bangladesh will be a dangerous side at the Oval.
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Nah - we'll win quite convincingly.
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England win the toss and will bowl first.
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Seems odd that we have dropped Rashid after he's been a mainstay of the side.
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Have got two spare tickets for the Aus-NZ game at Edgbasotn tomorrow if anybody wants them? 40 each face value, or make me an offer. Can meet you there.
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Have got two spare tickets for the Aus-NZ game at Edgbasotn tomorrow if anybody wants them? 40 each face value, or make me an offer. Can meet you there.
I also still have one but is £50...Block 9
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Bangladesh 57/1 13
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Woakes potentially having a side strain is a big blow.
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We're struggling a bit here.
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Tamim showing his class again for the Tigers, need to get him out.
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This shows why I think Woakes is so important, we're missing him badly here.
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This is going to be tough, our issue of taking wickets has come to the fore. I don't think dropping Rashid, regardless of Bangladesh's perceived weakness against pace, was a smart call.
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277/5 46.4 wickets started to tumble.
Should still get over the 300 mark but shouldn't worry England too much....fingers crossed.
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England will need to bat well here. When you're chasing 300 you always need to.
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losing the 2 set batsmen in consecutive balls was a massive blow to them, it's probably cost them 15-20 runs.
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305/6 50
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Roy gone, poor start.
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We've chased this well. Hopefully Root's injury isn't too bad and Woakes is better than it appears.
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Can't grumble at that chase.
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Can't grumble at that chase.
Nope, no real worries at all about the top seven, although Roy's form is becoming a bit of a concern. The bowling is a bit of a worry if Woakes and Stokes are injured and I founded the decision to drop Rashid a bit puzzling seeing as he's played a lot recently.
On another note Tamim really is a top class batsman.
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Roy will be fine. He's a good player, with a lot of talent, he just needs to find his game again.
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Woakes confirmed as out of the tournament. That's a massive blow, I wonder what they'll do for a replacement, maybe just Bring Rashid back in and keep Ball in the side but I'm not sure that's a good idea. Personally I'd go with Willey.
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It'll be Finn. It usually is.
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Finn would be my second choice. The key thing is wee need to pick a wicket taker. Willey gets something in the first power play and Finn always has a wicket in him. Ball just doesn't give me thaqt confidence.
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Finn would be my second choice. The key thing is wee need to pick a wicket taker. Willey gets something in the first power play and Finn always has a wicket in him. Ball just doesn't give me thaqt confidence.
Agree Paul. As a left armer, Willey offers something a bit different and his batting would surely make him as near as a like for like replacement for Woakes as we will get. The seam attack is all a bit samey at the moment.
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Broad was left out of Nottinghamshire's side for their County Championship match today, maybe...?
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Roland-Jones for me ...........He outbowled Finn in the game on Monday
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To be honest I think Woakes out has ruled us out of winning it. We need wickets and he's the man
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Roland-Jones for me ...........He outbowled Finn in the game on Monday
I like him but I'm not sure bringing someone in for their 2nd cap during a very competitive competition is the right idea, it's a very different situation to bowling in a dead rubber at the end of series that's already been won.
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I am sure they will just drop in Rashid unless it looks like the pitch will do something. How about chucking Bairstow in for Roy?
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Abandoned, no result. Pretty disappointing. It didn't look to be raining too heavily when they went off, had they played one more over... there would have been a winner on D/L. Shame the umpires were so quick to race off.
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I am sure they will just drop in Rashid unless it looks like the pitch will do something. How about chucking Bairstow in for Roy?
Billings has opened a few times in the past so I think it would be him.
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I wouldn't be dropping Roy now. Yes he's going through a bad run, but he's shown what he can do before, which thus far Billings hasn't and I'm not sure about Bairstow opening. My view is we're in a tournament now and we should be as much as is possible picking the team that has performed in the last year or so.
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I wouldn't be dropping Roy now. Yes he's going through a bad run, but he's shown what he can do before, which thus far Billings hasn't and I'm not sure about Bairstow opening. My view is we're in a tournament now and we should be as much as is possible picking the team that has performed in the last year or so.
Agreed, that's why I think I'd favour Willey over Ball as well (and bring back Rashid) because i want people who been heavily involved in making us the pre-tournament favourites.
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I wouldn't be dropping Roy now. Yes he's going through a bad run, but he's shown what he can do before, which thus far Billings hasn't and I'm not sure about Bairstow opening. My view is we're in a tournament now and we should be as much as is possible picking the team that has performed in the last year or so.
I agree about Roy, but Billings has had some decent knocks recently and at opener too.
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I wouldn't be dropping Roy now. Yes he's going through a bad run, but he's shown what he can do before, which thus far Billings hasn't and I'm not sure about Bairstow opening. My view is we're in a tournament now and we should be as much as is possible picking the team that has performed in the last year or so.
I agree about Roy, but Billings has had some decent knocks recently and at opener too.
The problem is that dropping someone who has bene a regular for 18 months after the fist game of the tournament looks a bit knee-jerk and doesn't send out a great message. On that basis I'd stick with him for now. If he doesn't manage a score in the next 2 (and we get through) then his place for the semi should be reviewed.
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I wouldn't be dropping Roy now. Yes he's going through a bad run, but he's shown what he can do before, which thus far Billings hasn't and I'm not sure about Bairstow opening. My view is we're in a tournament now and we should be as much as is possible picking the team that has performed in the last year or so.
I agree about Roy, but Billings has had some decent knocks recently and at opener too.
The problem is that dropping someone who has bene a regular for 18 months after the fist game of the tournament looks a bit knee-jerk and doesn't send out a great message. On that basis I'd stick with him for now. If he doesn't manage a score in the next 2 (and we get through) then his place for the semi should be reviewed.
I'd go with that Paul, especially as Roy has shown good form over a fair period of time. That's what puzzled me a bit about Rashid being left out, as he has been a regular for some time now. The only thing I can think is that they thought Bangladesh might weaker against seam bowling, but they coped pretty well.
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Malinger the Slinger back for Sri Lanka against the Saffers at the Oval. I thought he'd retired from international cricket years ago!
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Malinger the Slinger back for Sri Lanka against the Saffers at the Oval. I thought he'd retired from international cricket years ago!
He should have been retired forcibly from the start, the cheating bastard.
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In all my life of playing cricket watching cricket I have never understood how he has been allowed to bowl😨 He just chucks it and gets away with it😡
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I know, his action is like a round arm Baseball pitcher.
I've always thought that the ICC were as flexible as Murali's elbow when looking at such bowling actions, particularly as they didn't want to upset the powerful Asian Cricket boards. If Malinger or Murali had been English, Australian or even West Indian they'd have been forced to remodel their respective actions.
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Off to Edgbaston now to watch the local derby. This is quite unique as probably the only place where both teams will have an equal size crowd cheering them on. Let's hop the fans behave and I am wearing an England shirt😟
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Off to Edgbaston now to watch the local derby. This is quite unique as probably the only place where both teams will have an equal size crowd cheering them on. Let's hop the fans behave and I am wearing an England shirt😟
Enjoy your day, the atmosphere should be electric.
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Finn has been confirmed as the replacement for Woakes.
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As sure as night follows day.
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You don't know with the scores you see these days, but 310 is a decent total. It also looks gettable if some of their top order click.
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Today highlights why I'd have had Willey in ahead of Ball, you could've trusted him to smack a few extra runs at the end and he'd have put a lot more pressure on their top order at the start.
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Today highlights why I'd have had Willey in ahead of Ball, you could've trusted him to smack a few extra runs at the end and he'd have put a lot more pressure on their top order at the start.
He is more of a like-for-like replacement for Woakes. Also offers something different being a left armer.
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That said I should acknowledge that Ball did open the bowling well in this innings so i might be being harsh, it's the golden duck that worries me.
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Think we're in a spot of bother here.
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We need to get Williamson smartish.
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Yeah this game is slipping away from us fast.
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That's a big wicket but need a clatter of a couple now.
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Big wicket that as those two were more than capable of seeing them home.
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Another over or two from Wood and Ball to see if we can nick another wicket or two I reckon.
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Huge wicket to get Taylor, poor shot given the situation.
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Their middle order didn't do a lot against the Aussie so hopefully we can bag a couple more and keep it tight for a few overs.
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There goes another
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And another.
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Phwoar. I love a stumping from a wide! Game is up here.
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Anderson gone!
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And yet another. Start the car......
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Boom!
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Great bowling from England today.
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Super win that. Excellent bowling and good to see Rash back in.
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Another good win and a good, tight bowling performance. Semi final already secured ahead of the Aussies at Edgbaston.
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Great win, New Zealand aren't a bad team. Being so gracious I only mentioned the cricket once at work today (although it was in a meeting with all staff ;)).
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Super performance by the Sri Lankan's. That group is wide open, basically two quarter finals.
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Super performance by the Sri Lankan's. That group is wide open, basically two quarter finals.
This competition is wide open.
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Aussie off to a good start.
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Not good so far. If they keep going this way 330 is possible.
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Disappointing this, guarantee England will lose this then win the sporting contest that I want them to lose, later this evening.
Elsewhere, Afghanistan pump the Windies in an ODI, eighteen-year-old spinner Rashid Khan takes seven for eighteen.
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Well we are only playing Scotland later. If you want a comparison it would be like England losing in the cricket to someone like Scotland.
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Not a great start to chase Roy gone and used our review. Rashid bowled excellently.
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Hales gone.
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Not a great start to chase Roy gone and used our review. Rashid bowled excellently.
I thought that was a very poor review.
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Morgan on the move and dropped.
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Root gone. We're in some trouble here now.
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Off for rain, bad timing for the wicket.
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Keep hearing dropping Roy for Bairstow being discussed and whether Bairstow could open. Surely it would make sense to have Root open as he's been coming in early anyway?
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Stokes and Morgan have been class.
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Fkn hell, we need to send these convicts packing. They'll come back to haunt us in the final.
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Great ton from Stokes but lousy weather!
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Stokes and Morgan were magnificent.
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I love my cricket, but the weather has fkd this tourno up big style.
Could so easily been us out.
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That's a bit of a stretch. Weather didn't cost Australia the game today.
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England have to win this tournament. I don't care what the rankings say England are the best team in the world.
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England have to win this tournament. I don't care what the rankings say England are the best team in the world.
I agree, Roy in reasonable form, Stokes fully fit and Woakes fit and we'd be even further ahead. In our own conditions we are the best.
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England have to win this tournament. I don't care what the rankings say England are the best team in the world.
Another very good win. Thought Wood and the spinners in particular bowled very well and to think Woakes is also missing it was an impressive bowling performance. The batting line up is very strong and even when we were three down and struggling, there was still plenty of batting left to come. Woakes for Plunkett and a fully fit Tymal Mills for Ball (we could well see that side in the upcoming T20s) and it would be a very, very good side.
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Eng v SA
Sri Lanka v BGD
Eng v Sri Lanka final
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Won't happen it looks like short of something remarkable England will play the winner of Pakistan vs SL.
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It's a pity the game ended as it did, still it's always good to beat the Crims and send them home.
They've been moaning about the weather robbing them of results but they were likely to have lost two of the abandoned games anyway so they would still be picking their duty free at the airport.
The turn around in our white ball cricket since the last World Cup is really astonishing. They now play without fear and with a great deal of panache. We surely must win this tournament.
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Not like the Saffers to choke in a knock out game.
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Not like the Saffers to choke in a knock out game.
Every tournament......116-1 to 184-9 including a comedic run out.
They really are perennial chockers.
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It's strange how Australia, New Zealand and South Africa have been knocked out of the tournament whilst the teams from the sub-continent are progressing through with one guaranteed a final place? I would have thought the conditions in England green pitches etc more favoured the Southern Hemisphere teams🤔
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Wet pitches are a bit of a leveller.
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Wet pitches are a bit of a leveller.
The drainage systems at grounds like Edgbaston and the Oval alongside hover covers mean that the squares are kept dry. That was best illustrated by the India-Pakistan game at Edgbaston last weekend. There were several rain interruptions but once the rain stopped they were back playing in no time at all.
The Crims were poor in two of their three games and deserved to go out at the group stage. The Kiwis faced a shoot out against Bangladesh and they lost. The two teams that deserved to qualify from that group went through. In the other group the Saffers chocked as they always do.
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Not like the Saffers to choke in a knock out game.
Every tournament......116-1 to 184-9 including a comedic run out.
They really are perennial chockers.
It still needed the Third Umpire because they had to figure out which player was back into the crease first :)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/40240500
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Great game and Pakistan it is then. Always tricky but we should have too much.
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England have announced the t20 squad for the SA series, there's a lot of inexperience in there.
England squad
Jonathan Bairstow (Yorkshire) – available for the first two matches of the series
Sam Billings (Kent)
Jos Buttler (Lancashire)
Mason Crane (Hampshire)
Tom Curran (Surrey)
Liam Dawson (Hampshire)
Alex Hales (Nottinghamshire)
Chris Jordan (Sussex)
Liam Livingstone (Lancashire)
Dawid Malan (Middlesex)
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex, captain)
Craig Overton (Somerset) – available for the last two matches of the series
Liam Plunkett (Yorkshire)
Jason Roy (Surrey)
David Willey (Yorkshire)
Mark Wood (Durham) – available for the first match of the series
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A pity England playing a semi-final in Cardiff and not their favourite ground.....Edgbaston.
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England have announced the t20 squad for the SA series, there's a lot of inexperience in there.
England squad
Jonathan Bairstow (Yorkshire) – available for the first two matches of the series
Sam Billings (Kent)
Jos Buttler (Lancashire)
Mason Crane (Hampshire)
Tom Curran (Surrey)
Liam Dawson (Hampshire)
Alex Hales (Nottinghamshire)
Chris Jordan (Sussex)
Liam Livingstone (Lancashire)
Dawid Malan (Middlesex)
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex, captain)
Craig Overton (Somerset) – available for the last two matches of the series
Liam Plunkett (Yorkshire)
Jason Roy (Surrey)
David Willey (Yorkshire)
Mark Wood (Durham) – available for the first match of the series
Woakes apart we have not one Warwickshire player within a million miles of any senior England squad. Not even the Lions.
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England have announced the t20 squad for the SA series, there's a lot of inexperience in there.
England squad
Jonathan Bairstow (Yorkshire) – available for the first two matches of the series
Sam Billings (Kent)
Jos Buttler (Lancashire)
Mason Crane (Hampshire)
Tom Curran (Surrey)
Liam Dawson (Hampshire)
Alex Hales (Nottinghamshire)
Chris Jordan (Sussex)
Liam Livingstone (Lancashire)
Dawid Malan (Middlesex)
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex, captain)
Craig Overton (Somerset) – available for the last two matches of the series
Liam Plunkett (Yorkshire)
Jason Roy (Surrey)
David Willey (Yorkshire)
Mark Wood (Durham) – available for the first match of the series
Full strength T20 team is pretty much the 50 over side plus Tymal Mills isn't it?
Hales, Roy, Root, Morgan, Buttler, Stokes, Ali, Woakes, Rashid, Wood, Mills.
Suppose we need to look at some other options though.
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Sounds like Jonny B will open tomorrow. Probably the right call, as I think Roy needs a break. I still think he's a key player for the World Cup, but he needs to clear his head.
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Sounds like Jonny B will open tomorrow. Probably the right call, as I think Roy needs a break. I still think he's a key player for the World Cup, but he needs to clear his head.
Agree Paul. Probably needs a bit of time in the middle away from the spotlight of international cricket to get his game sorted.
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We're not exactly racing along here, sounds like a sluggish pitch.
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Not going to set much of a score here, I'm hoping it's the pitch.
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We need a big 18 overs here.
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Well, England are making a right feck-up of this
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Yep this is going pretty terribly, we need a huge bowling performance.
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The consolation here is that Pakistan look like a very weak batting line up. We need to just go for it a bit now, 240-250 gives us a decent chance still.
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Yeah we need the mid 200s to stand a chance. I'm really hoping it's the pitch, but Pakistan have bowled well and we'll need to bowl exceptionally to defend whatever total we set.
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Some interesting comments from Woakes regarding the fact that England do not practice running between the wickets, communicating with the other batsman or sliding/bat grounding.
This surprised me. I'd have thought that coaches/players would be looking for every advantage possible.
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That's about 30 short of what I'd have been wanting as a minimum, we'll need to bowl brilliantly to save this.
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Yep that was desperately poor. We'll need a miracle to get through now.
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Well England's bowlers will have to do something pretty special if they are to win.
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With a total that low you do genuinely need a miracle, because there's no scoreboard pressure at all in the chase. If it had been 270 we'd have had a chance. Poor batting line up or not Pakistan should stroll this.
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I think the start of the innings has indicated which way this is going.
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They're making this look rather easy.
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Dreadful bowling by Stokes.
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We have been sloppy with the ball and the bat but you have to give credit to Pakistan for the way they stifled us with the ball and then batted sensibly.
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Really really poor all round today. Worst thing is we abandoned our principles when we batted. Well done Pakistan. Rethink for England as to how we address a high pressure knock out game.
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I think a few players bottled it a bit today, good that it happened now though because it gives us something to work on for the world cup.
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Yeah it was a horror show all round and I think they missed judged the pitch. The fact that Morgan said 270 would be a good score, given the position Pakistan were in, says to me that we underrated them and we're a bit complacent.
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The consolation here is that Pakistan look like a very weak batting line up. We need to just go for it a bit now, 240-250 gives us a decent chance still.
Are you the Michael Owen of cricket punditry?
Well second thought you are not as you at least had an opinion😅
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England set off like a train 🚂 through the group matches and ran out of steam as they have a habit of doing at the wrong time. Another tournament now gone without winning it. Someone said it's better to fail here than the World Cup I am afraid that won't do. Winning tournament is an habit. England had the talent were fully prepared and home from home so sorry but not good enough chaps.
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The problem is there's no way to test whether we have learnt from today until the World Cup.
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That shitty performance couldn't have come against the Aussies, could it?
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That shitty performance couldn't have come against the Aussies, could it?
I never want to lose against the Crims, however if we had then we'd be playing our semi at Edgbaston on a pitch more suited to our attack.
That said, to be a truly great side we need to win on all surfaces.
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Concur with everything said on here and that was a real setback yesterday. We've been on a steep upward curve in the 50 over game over the past couple of years and winning this tournament would have continued that. I wouldn't be tearing too much up though, as I don't think there is a whole lot wrong at the moment.
I really hope the West Indies bring over their full strength ODI side later in the summer, as that will be a good test if they do.
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One slight mitigating factor, and not to make excuses for a poor performance, was that this was the same pitch that Pakistan played on in their previous match, so they would have known how to bowl on it and would have had more clue about the way it played.
Pretty poor not to have a new pitch for a semi-final really.
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One slight mitigating factor, and not to make excuses for a poor performance, was that this was the same pitch that Pakistan played on in their previous match, so they would have known how to bowl on it and would have had more clue about the way it played.
Pretty poor not to have a new pitch for a semi-final really.
Completely agree about the lack of a new pitch for the semi final of a major tournament. Completely amateurish really.
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One slight mitigating factor, and not to make excuses for a poor performance, was that this was the same pitch that Pakistan played on in their previous match, so they would have known how to bowl on it and would have had more clue about the way it played.
Pretty poor not to have a new pitch for a semi-final really.
Completely agree about the lack of a new pitch for the semi final of a major tournament. Completely amateurish really.
ICC competition rules - not permitted to produce a fresh pitch for the knockout stages of a tournament
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One slight mitigating factor, and not to make excuses for a poor performance, was that this was the same pitch that Pakistan played on in their previous match, so they would have known how to bowl on it and would have had more clue about the way it played.
Pretty poor not to have a new pitch for a semi-final really.
Completely agree about the lack of a new pitch for the semi final of a major tournament. Completely amateurish really.
ICC competition rules - not permitted to produce a fresh pitch for the knockout stages of a tournament
Blimey. That's an awful rule
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Pakistan are riding their luck so far. Caught of a no-ball, 4lb by heading the ball over slip, charge down the pitch for a village green hack to leg.
Entertaining though
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Alec Stewart claiming the gates named for him at the Oval outrank the Pavilion named for his Dad :)
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Pakistan have both surprised and impressed me so far. I can see this developing into a crackerjack.
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Great century by Fakhar
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338 for Pakistan. Not that high a total in the modern game but no team has ever chased that many to win an ODI at The Oval
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And India 6-2 so even harder to chase down now.
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Looks like this will complete Amir's redemption.
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Considering they only just scraped qualification, winning the trophy is an incredible achievement
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Looks like this will complete Amir's redemption.
Not so sure about that Paul, as don't think he should have been allowed back, but that's in the past. Pakistan have been excellent in the past three games.
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To me it's done and he's the sort of bowler who brings fans to cricket.
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To me it's done and he's the sort of bowler who brings fans to cricket.
You could say that about some of the athletes who have tested positive for drugs, but in a different field of course. For me it is quite straightforward - caught cheating like that and get a lifetime ban from international sport. That's not the case though and he's served his time under current rules and is free to play.
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I think despite 337 on scoreboard the key was Amir knocking over the 3 giants of formidable Indian batting lineup. It shook the Indian team to see Sharma, Dhawan and Kohli fall with 33 onboard. Yuvraj and Dhoni are not the players they were a few years ago and that was that. So for me Amir was MotM.
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When they get it right, Pakistan are a wonderful team and I'm happy they won it. Imagine how we would be if England could not play home tests or ODI's and every game you play is effectively an away game.
It's good for Cricket that an unfancied team won a major tournament and for all of their riches, Australia, India and England were at times outclassed.
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Pakistan have a great attack in all forms of the game but have been let down by their batting far too often. They started the tournament exactly as you'd expect but the low pressure against England gave them a little more confidence there as well and they looked excellent in the final in both aspects.
For England losing Woakes and having Roy lose all his form just going into the tournament were 2 massive blows as they both disrupted our shape. On top of that it showed that despite all the improvements we've still got work to do.
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I think Morgan making excuses for Cardiff being a bad pitch was ridiculous and disrespectful. He really needs to learn from this tournament if England are to do better in the world cup.
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I agree with him. England should play all their matches at a ground where they have a good record.
Edgbaston would be my choice. 😊
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Pakistan have a great attack in all forms of the game but have been let down by their batting far too often. They started the tournament exactly as you'd expect but the low pressure against England gave them a little more confidence there as well and they looked excellent in the final in both aspects.
For England losing Woakes and having Roy lose all his form just going into the tournament were 2 massive blows as they both disrupted our shape. On top of that it showed that despite all the improvements we've still got work to do.
I agree and just couldn't see them producing that kind of batting performance yesterday Paul.
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When they get it right, Pakistan are a wonderful team and I'm happy they won it. Imagine how we would be if England could not play home tests or ODI's and every game you play is effectively an away game.
It's good for Cricket that an unfancied team won a major tournament and for all of their riches, Australia, India and England were at times outclassed.
Don't forget, there is a particular reason why they cannot play in Pakistan.
As for England being 'outclassed', as an England fan I'll have to take your word that that is 'good for cricket'.
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As good as the tournament was the one thing that stood out for me is that test cricket is infinitely better than the one day stuff.
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As good as the tournament was the one thing that stood out for me is that test cricket is infinitely better than the one day stuff.
I had concerns for the 50 over game a few years ago, but it seems to be rejuvenated now. I think there is room for all three formats of the game to be honest. T20 gets a bit of stick, but when done well it is a good package and will attract people who might not normally consider cricket.
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I agree with him. England should play all their matches at a ground where they have a good record.
Edgbaston would be my choice. 😊
You need to hurry up and get a job with ICC as fixture organiser for 2019 WC.
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Well if the victory for Pakistan has taught us one thing its that sometimes cheats do prosper.
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To an extent yeah although I believe in second chances and he was an 18 year old kid who made a bad mistake.
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its not just him. they've been experts at cheating for a while now. Can't stand them.
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I don't know I quite like their team, bit harsh to tarnish them all as cheats.
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As good as the tournament was the one thing that stood out for me is that test cricket is infinitely better than the one day stuff.
Well two completely different approaches for same thing. It's like street food v Michelin star restaurant.
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I don't know I quite like their team, bit harsh to tarnish them all as cheats.
I know but watching them repeatedly do it over the years galls and I begrudge them any good fortune.
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There's a decent chance Hameed won't make the Test squad this summer. He's having a horrid season.
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There's a decent chance Hameed won't make the Test squad this summer. He's having a horrid season.
Yeah, opener continues to be a problem.
Ballance has had an excellent season so far, so may well force himself back into contention for the middle order
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There's a decent chance Hameed won't make the Test squad this summer. He's having a horrid season.
Seems ages since we last played a test!! From what I can recall, we finished the winter looking at a side something like:
Cook, Hameed, Jennings, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Ali, Woakes, Rashid, Broad, Anderson
There are a few injuries about so there might be some changes to the above. Looking at the season so far and the Lions today, Stoneman might well get the nod over Hameed to partner Cook. The preparation for the Ashes begins now.
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Great start for England against South Africa, first ball of the innings a wicket for Willey.
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Great start for England against South Africa, first ball of the innings a wicket for Willey.
Good bowling performance all round. Especially good from Mason Crane, the young leg spinner on debut.
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Willey getting someone early is why I'd pick in the 50 over team, he brilliant at it and even if he only bowls 4-5 at the start if he can take a wicket or 2 and put them on the backfoot early then it's job done. With us picking 6 frontline bowlers and having a very good aprt-timer in Root we can go for a genuine specialist like him.
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Very good win that. Good bowling performance and excellent run chase. Roy looked back to form and Hales and Bairstow were excellent.
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Afghanistan and Ireland have both been granted full test status.
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I wouldn't fancy the away tour.
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Yeah, fuck Dublin for a game of soldiers.
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Afghanistan and Ireland have both been granted full test status.
Not seen much of the former, but they are supposed to have a pretty decent leg spinner aren't they?
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Haven't seen him but some nineteen-year-old took eight for fifteen against the Windies the other day.
Very pleased for both countries, well deserved.
If the Afghan team can give a bit of hope and cheer to the population, then good luck to them.
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Haven't seen him but some nineteen-year-old took eight for fifteen against the Windies the other day.
Very pleased for both countries, well deserved.
If the Afghan team can give a bit of hope and cheer to the population, then good luck to them.
That's him.
http://www.cricbuzz.com/cricket-news/95266/could-crickets-current-best-legspinner-be-from-afghanistan-rashid-khan-feature
Agree about Afghanistan and Ireland, good for the game as a whole.
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Blofeld to hang up the microphone (not before time imho).
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Blofeld to hang up the microphone (not before time imho).
Yep, Blowers used to be a great commentator but it's become cringeworthy listening in recent years
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Blofeld to hang up the microphone (not before time imho).
Yep, Blowers used to be a great commentator but it's become cringeworthy listening in recent years
My dear old thing!!
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Shall see when both sides have batted of course, but I think thats a fine bowling effort from England on such a small ground
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This has been really good from Roy, if only he'd have found this form a few weeks back.
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This is a lot closer than it should have been now
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We've ballsed this up.
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yep, fucking shambolic performance after we lost the 2nd wicket
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Yep, that was a mess. I posted about Roy on here, walked to shop and got back to see the last 2 overs and couldn't quite work out how we'd got ourselves into that position.
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It was awful really. Morgan or Buttler should have came in when Roy got out. I know they were trying to give the opportunity to Livingstone, but he was clearly nervous and a bit overawed by the situation. 16 from 18 was the poor result.
We should have put winning the game ahead of that
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Does anyone have the ECB app and know how to turn on Wicket Alerts? It was literally the only reason to have the app and seems to have disappeared.
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Ignore above. Got rid and installed Cricinfo app which seems to do the same thing instead.
I see the ICC have changed the rules so that you don't lose your review if it's "Umpire's Call". Good rule changed, IMO.
They've also introduced DRS in T20 Internationals and scrapped the rule that they get topped up after eighty overs.
Rule changes effective 1st October.
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Great start by Malan, Roy looked good but misjudged one and Hales is struggling after a nasty one onto the inside of his knee.
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Really poor from Livingstone, no need to try something like that to your first ball.
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England finish with 181 - probably 10-15 less than it should've been because the last few overs were poor.
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Great from Malan, but again we fall away. I'm sure he has talent but what exactly does Billings bring to the England team?
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Massive wicket for Crane, 100 needed from 9 overs with ABDV gone is a massive ask.
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Great from Malan, but again we fall away. I'm sure he has talent but what exactly does Billings bring to the England team?
Decent hands in the deep (and generally good fielding) and he can score quick runs, just hasn't worked in these 2 T20s. I think there's something to work with there.
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It's beyond just these two T20s though, whenever he's played he's struggled. Hopefully he'll come good but thus far he's not performed.
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It's beyond just these two T20s though, whenever he's played he's struggled. Hopefully he'll come good but thus far he's not performed.
For me he's had 3-4 good knocks across T20is and ODIs but his appearances seem to be 1 game in 3-4 so he's never settled into the side.
Anyway, good win for England, some great bowling after a brilliant 15-16 overs with the bat.
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It's beyond just these two T20s though, whenever he's played he's struggled. Hopefully he'll come good but thus far he's not performed.
For me he's had 3-4 good knocks across T20is and ODIs but his appearances seem to be 1 game in 3-4 so he's never settled into the side.
Anyway, good win for England, some great bowling after a brilliant 15-16 overs with the bat.
Yep, good win with an experimental side (SA also far from full strength it has to be noted). Good to see young players given their chance.
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I think we now have a big squad of international quality players in all 3 formats just need to win some tournaments now and become the top ranked test side.
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I think we now have a big squad of international quality players in all 3 formats just need to win some tournaments now and become the top ranked test side.
Still need to find a quality spinner for the test team
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I think we now have a big squad of international quality players in all 3 formats just need to win some tournaments now and become the top ranked test side.
Still need to find a quality spinner for the test team
Also think we need to get a settled top three sorted. I'm not keen on Root at three, as he is our best player and it often exposes him to the new ball too soon. The rest of the side (Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Buttler, Ali, Woakes, Broad, Anderson) is fine.
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Livingstone was a really strange pick for the T20 Internationals, and it showed. He's batted 26 times for Lancs and only passed 50 once in that format. If he is to get another England chance soon, it should be in a longer format.
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I think with Livingstone it was down to liking something about him and wanting to see if the step up lifted him or weighed him down. As it looked like the latter I suspect he'll get a year or 2 more at county level before they try again unless his county game shows a clear reaction to this. The first game was poor but understandable but yesterday it was a truly horrific shot that would only be attempted by someone inexperienced and trying too hard to impress.
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I think with Livingstone it was down to liking something about him and wanting to see if the step up lifted him or weighed him down. As it looked like the latter I suspect he'll get a year or 2 more at county level before they try again unless his county game shows a clear reaction to this. The first game was poor but understandable but yesterday it was a truly horrific shot that would only be attempted by someone inexperienced and trying too hard to impress.
Bit harsh Paul as he came in at the end of the innings and pretty much had to go for it straight away. It's tough to judge anyone on T20 to be honest due to the nature of the game.
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I think with Livingstone it was down to liking something about him and wanting to see if the step up lifted him or weighed him down. As it looked like the latter I suspect he'll get a year or 2 more at county level before they try again unless his county game shows a clear reaction to this. The first game was poor but understandable but yesterday it was a truly horrific shot that would only be attempted by someone inexperienced and trying too hard to impress.
Bit harsh Paul as he came in at the end of the innings and pretty much had to go for it straight away. It's tough to judge anyone on T20 to be honest due to the nature of the game.
I agree had to go for it but to play a shot like he did is too risky for the first ball you face.
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Curran impressed me.
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Curran impressed me.
Curran and Crane both looked good for me, Malan was superb. To reiterate I'm in no way writing off Livingstone, I just think he's been called up too soon.
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I think with Livingstone it was down to liking something about him and wanting to see if the step up lifted him or weighed him down. As it looked like the latter I suspect he'll get a year or 2 more at county level before they try again unless his county game shows a clear reaction to this. The first game was poor but understandable but yesterday it was a truly horrific shot that would only be attempted by someone inexperienced and trying too hard to impress.
Bit harsh Paul as he came in at the end of the innings and pretty much had to go for it straight away. It's tough to judge anyone on T20 to be honest due to the nature of the game.
I agree had to go for it but to play a shot like he did is too risky for the first ball you face.
Yes the shot was all too pre-meditated. Whereas if he'd stayed in his normal stance he'd have had a juicy full toss to which he could have just stood tall and whacked it for 4, or at worst got a single to get him off the mark.
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Curran impressed me.
Yep, seemed to have a bit of something about him as well which is always a good sign. Another one though not quite in the 90mph plus bracket.
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Tom Curran looks twice the bowler of his younger brother Sam from what I've seen of both so far, really can't see the fuss around Sam, think he'll turn in to a very average cricketer.
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Tom Curran looks twice the bowler of his younger brother Sam from what I've seen of both so far, really can't see the fuss around Sam, think he'll turn in to a very average cricketer.
Yep, I can't understand the fuss over a 19 year old with nearly 150 wickets across all forms either, it's especially weird given he's a leftie.
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Tom Curran looks twice the bowler of his younger brother Sam from what I've seen of both so far, really can't see the fuss around Sam, think he'll turn in to a very average cricketer.
Yep, I can't understand the fuss over a 19 year old with nearly 150 wickets across all forms either, it's especially weird given he's a leftie.
Stats don't always tell the full story. He's burst on the scene, and people are excited due to his age. But having watched him a few times I don't think he has enough about him to kick on, and will still be a decent county player in a couple of years, but nothing more.
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Tom Curran looks twice the bowler of his younger brother Sam from what I've seen of both so far, really can't see the fuss around Sam, think he'll turn in to a very average cricketer.
Yep, I can't understand the fuss over a 19 year old with nearly 150 wickets across all forms either, it's especially weird given he's a leftie.
Stats don't always tell the full story. He's burst on the scene, and people are excited due to his age. But having watched him a few times I don't think he has enough about him to kick on, and will still be a decent county player in a couple of years, but nothing more.
but you said you don't see what the fuss is about. The fuss is all about the stats, that was my point. I've not watched him much but he looks like he has a habit of taking wickets from nothing, if he can carry that forward and add a bit of speed I think he'll be very good.
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Tom Curran looks twice the bowler of his younger brother Sam from what I've seen of both so far, really can't see the fuss around Sam, think he'll turn in to a very average cricketer.
Yep, I can't understand the fuss over a 19 year old with nearly 150 wickets across all forms either, it's especially weird given he's a leftie.
Stats don't always tell the full story. He's burst on the scene, and people are excited due to his age. But having watched him a few times I don't think he has enough about him to kick on, and will still be a decent county player in a couple of years, but nothing more.
but you said you don't see what the fuss is about. The fuss is all about the stats, that was my point. I've not watched him much but he looks like he has a habit of taking wickets from nothing, if he can carry that forward and add a bit of speed I think he'll be very good.
I think a lot of people hype players up based on what they see though too. People get excited when they see a player who can do something out of the ordinary, like a bowler who can bowl 90mph+, having stats which back up what they see helps. If we were going solely on stats, Will Gidman would be the first pick for England's test side.
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Watch this one
He's still a kid so you won't get spells like that all the time but that's the bowling of someone worth keeping an eye on, especially given his age, and he's had 5-6 spells like that over the last 18 months.
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Some great swinging deliveries in there. I do wonder how much he relies on the conditions, as I've seen him a couple of times in the flesh and several more on Sky in One-Day games and he's never bowled any spells like that. As he's 19 I won't write him off, but I'll stand my prediction that he'll turn in to a decent County player rather than an England one. The Jack Grealish of cricket for a cheeky comparison.
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Red balls and white balls are very different, his white ball stats are far worse than his red ball ones.
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Averages nearly 30 in red ball, just over 32 with the white. Unless you are referring to his 5-wicket hauls, when he's been able to bowl longer spells in the longer format?
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Averages nearly 30 in red ball, just over 32 with the white. Unless you are referring to his 5-wicket hauls, when he's been able to bowl longer spells in the longer format?
I was really because I was thinking about spells. As I've said I don't think anyone expects a 19 year old to show the consistency of a full international so you have to look at how and when he's taken wickets. His record and style are similar to Jimmy Anderson when he was breaking through for me, he's one of 2-3 that I think are genuinely exciting young bowlers so I was a bit surprised to see such a harsh post is all.
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I'm certainly in the minority with this one Paul. I guess for England it would be good if I was proved wrong. The ones I really like the look of at the moment in that age group are his brother, and Tongue at Worcester. Think Brad Wheal has potential too but not showing it yet this season.
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I think there's a few decent young bowlers about, Coad looks like a great prospect as well. The thing is I think judging a player before they're about 22-23 is unfair because anyone less than a genuine world class player is going to have ups and downs before that and that's true for pretty much any sport.
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Cricket coming home (we'll sort of, in a couple of years) - new TV deal.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-4655026/England-cricket-coming-home-BBC-enough.html
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Hameed's form has cost him, I still think long term he'll be a star. This really has to be last chance saloon for Ballance. He had a great start to his Test career but he's consistently failed since.
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Hameed's form has cost him, I still think long term he'll be a star. This really has to be last chance saloon for Ballance. He had a great start to his Test career but he's consistently failed since.
A lot of the talk is that Root really pushed for a Ballance recall.
In fairness he has been in awesome form and is averaging 98 this summer.
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He has and I hope he does well, but if he fails again off the back of that form we need to move on.
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I think the problem is more that Ballance was recalled last summer despite being in poor form at that time. He was always odds on to fail last summer.
Looks like he's going to bat at 3 which will be a real test against a good attack
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Liam Dawson is the staggering selection for me. In the longer form he adds sod all with the ball.
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Yeah I don't entirely get the Dawson selection, he won't play, but just seems odd.
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I think Dawson will play, otherwise Broad would have to bat at no 8 which i can't see the selectors doing.
They should have just picked an extra batsman
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I doubt they'll go two spinners when there have been fitness questions over Broad, Jimmy and Stokes.
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Good to see Ballance get another go. Decent player but needs to take this chance. I wonder though if we are a bit short of number 4 batsman?
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Good to see Ballance get another go. Decent player but needs to take this chance. I wonder though if we are a bit short of number 4 batsman?
Nah, Root is a 4, we just need to get the 3 above him working so he's coming in after 40-50 overs rather than after 10.
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I didn't see any of it but some seriously impressive stats from Alex Hales today.
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I didn't see any of it but some seriously impressive stats from Alex Hales today.
I'd feel sorry for the young lad who dropped him on 9 when he sent a simple catch to him but as he plays for Surrey and Batty is his captain I can't.
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Good to see Ballance get another go. Decent player but needs to take this chance. I wonder though if we are a bit short of number 4 batsman?
Nah, Root is a 4, we just need to get the 3 above him working so he's coming in after 40-50 overs rather than after 10.
Agree Paul. Surely last chance saloon for Ballance, as there can't be many more chances now. Surprised Stoneman wasn't given a chance as he got a couple of decent scores for the Lions recently.
Bit of a strange line up really and a worringly long tail. The only thing I can think is that maybe Stokes won't bowl so they needed the four seamers.
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Got back yesterday from our tour, up from London, played the Evesham Fossils at Malvern Friday, two nights at the premier inn at New Road and watched England A against South Africa on Saturday and a game at Wantage in Oxfordshire on way home Sunday. Top weekend.
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So Dawson is going to play. Hopefully he does well but he feels like a bit of a 90s selection for me. It's a bit of a weird squad all around.
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So Dawson is going to play. Hopefully he does well but he feels like a bit of a 90s selection for me. It's a bit of a weird squad all around.
Agree Paul, seems like he is there to fill an 'all-rounder' spot really rather than offer a real threat with either bat or ball. Might as well have played an extra batsman really.
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So Dawson is going to play. Hopefully he does well but he feels like a bit of a 90s selection for me. It's a bit of a weird squad all around.
Agree Paul, seems like he is there to fill an 'all-rounder' spot really rather than offer a real threat with either bat or ball. Might as well have played an extra batsman really.
I'd guess his job is to, as you say, add depth to the batting but also to occupy an end for long stints without going for loads of runs. I don't care if he takes wickets, if he can make himself difficult to score off and bowl a long spell then you can give Wood, Broad and Jimmy short sharp spells at the other end and keep them all fresh. It's the job Bresnan did for a while and that Woakes does with extra wicket taking.
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Fucking awful start.
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Not reviewing the Jennings decision was very poor, it looked worth checking on first view and the replays showed it was a really poor decision from the umpire.
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The poor morning continues.
76/4
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We've made our usual poor start to a test series, particularly when playing at Lords. The top three is really becoming a problem.
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So Dawson is going to play. Hopefully he does well but he feels like a bit of a 90s selection for me. It's a bit of a weird squad all around.
Agree Paul, seems like he is there to fill an 'all-rounder' spot really rather than offer a real threat with either bat or ball. Might as well have played an extra batsman really.
I'd guess his job is to, as you say, add depth to the batting but also to occupy an end for long stints without going for loads of runs. I don't care if he takes wickets, if he can make himself difficult to score off and bowl a long spell then you can give Wood, Broad and Jimmy short sharp spells at the other end and keep them all fresh. It's the job Bresnan did for a while and that Woakes does with extra wicket taking.
Surely that is Moeen's role Paul? I did say it before, so not just reacting to the poor start today, but we may as well play an extra batsman in the line up.
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So Dawson is going to play. Hopefully he does well but he feels like a bit of a 90s selection for me. It's a bit of a weird squad all around.
Agree Paul, seems like he is there to fill an 'all-rounder' spot really rather than offer a real threat with either bat or ball. Might as well have played an extra batsman really.
I'd guess his job is to, as you say, add depth to the batting but also to occupy an end for long stints without going for loads of runs. I don't care if he takes wickets, if he can make himself difficult to score off and bowl a long spell then you can give Wood, Broad and Jimmy short sharp spells at the other end and keep them all fresh. It's the job Bresnan did for a while and that Woakes does with extra wicket taking.
Surely that is Moeen's role Paul? I did say it before, so not just reacting to the poor start today, but we may as well play an extra batsman in the line up.
Maybe it should be but it's not what they've used him for.
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He may prove me wrong but I just don't think
Ballance has the technique to play against quality pace bowling.
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I agree on Ballance, he's very strong against medium pace and solid against moderate spin but the step up in pace and quality just seems too much for him. It's all a bit Graeme Hick.
Back to Dawson, just for the record I don't think he should be anywhere near the test team, I was just offering ideas for why they've decided to give him a go instead of someone like Roland-Jones who'd have been my pick to cover for Woakes.
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3:40pm on the BBC FB page; "Faceboycs Live" :)
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Not watching but heard as well as yet again failing to score runs, Ballance told Jennings not to review his LBW shout when he would have been given not out, and then selfishly reviewed his own LBW when he was plum.
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Decent partnership from Root and Stokes.
Both need to continue to bat for a long time now.
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Yep. A good recovery, but you get the feeling this partnership needs to take the score up near 300.
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I agree on Ballance, he's very strong against medium pace and solid against moderate spin but the step up in pace and quality just seems too much for him. It's all a bit Graeme Hick.
Back to Dawson, just for the record I don't think he should be anywhere near the test team, I was just offering ideas for why they've decided to give him a go instead of someone like Roland-Jones who'd have been my pick to cover for Woakes.
Oh I agree Paul. They've gone for someone who offers a bit of batting and bowling, whereas I think they would have been better going for one or the other.
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No need for that from Stokes whatsoever. 2 men back on the boundary, so at most would have got a single for the shot, whilst at the same time potentially getting out in a couple of ways.
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No need for that from Stokes whatsoever. 2 men back on the boundary, so at most would have got a single for the shot, whilst at the same time potentially getting out in a couple of ways.
That's where he's still a risk of letting himself down, sometimes he'll try to play a shot that just isn't needed, sometimes he'll try to bounce someone out when the play is to bowl full, etc. I like him a lot and I think he's getting better and reigning himself in well most of the time but 'the inner chimp' still slips out every now and then.
Great captains knock from Root though, if Ali and Dawson can stick with him we can still post a competitive target here, which is a big positive from where we were.
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No need for that from Stokes whatsoever. 2 men back on the boundary, so at most would have got a single for the shot, whilst at the same time potentially getting out in a couple of ways.
That's where he's still a risk of letting himself down, sometimes he'll try to play a shot that just isn't needed, sometimes he'll try to bounce someone out when the play is to bowl full, etc. I like him a lot and I think he's getting better and reigning himself in well most of the time but 'the inner chimp' still slips out every now and then.
Great captains knock from Root though, if Ali and Dawson can stick with him we can still post a competitive target here, which is a big positive from where we were.
We really need Root to get a big ton and Moeen to get a score as well to ease a bit of pressure on the lower order.
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There's the ton, Root is a great player to watch when he's playing like this, he creates gaps for himself brilliantly.
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Root is quickly becoming my favourite sports person. Leading by example
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Good batting the last few overs, if we can get the rate up against the 'b' bowlers here it's puts some pressure on them to bring Morkel and Phillander back on which means they're not going to get a rest before the new ball.
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150 up for Root and a very tidy knock from Ali so far as well to get us 308-5. At 17-2 you'd take that and at 76-4 you grab it with both hands. Brilliant fightback by Root and well supported by Stokes and Ali.
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50 for Moeen. Daddy hundred coming in from Root.
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150 partnership up from 177 deliveries, that's a stunning counter-attack, completely game changing.
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We are twatting it around like the 30-40 overs in an ODI. Very impressive.
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Terrible first session, good 2nd session, superb 3rd session which has put England well on top at stumps.
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Tremendous comeback from Root, supported well by Stokes and Ali. We're in a good position, but are still going to need a good morning tomorrow to really get a solid advantage.
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Tremendous comeback from Root, supported well by Stokes and Ali. We're in a good position, but are still going to need a good morning tomorrow to really get a solid advantage.
Of course but with the batting still to come 450-500 really should be the target.
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Great come back.
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Tremendous comeback from Root, supported well by Stokes and Ali. We're in a good position, but are still going to need a good morning tomorrow to really get a solid advantage.
Of course but with the batting still to come 450-500 really should be the target.
Could well be Paul. Quick couple of wickets though and we could be struggling to make 400. Would love to see Root push on tomorrow past the double hundred towards a treble.
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Moeen really is an underrated cricket for England.
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Great innings by Roooooot but also the luckiest innings I've seen in a test
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Tremendous comeback from Root, supported well by Stokes and Ali. We're in a good position, but are still going to need a good morning tomorrow to really get a solid advantage.
Of course but with the batting still to come 450-500 really should be the target.
Could well be Paul. Quick couple of wickets though and we could be struggling to make 400. Would love to see Root push on tomorrow past the double hundred towards a treble.
I'm holding you responsible for this, just so you know!
To be fair the one that got Root was a beauty. Dawson was unlucky for me, but got made up for by Broad getting a life.
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Geoffrey saying that no batter should fear getting hit by the ball because they're not going to get hurt
He seems to have completely forgotten about Phil Hughes
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Wag wag.
Brilliant little t20 inspired partnership from Broad and Jimmy. That's got to feel like a kick in the balls for the bowlers after working so hard to try to keep the target down.
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458 all out in the end. Good target and the time is nice to give us a few niggly overs before lunch.
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Moeen Ali has 100 Test wickets! The second fastest to the 100 wickets-2000 runs mark after Tony Greig, no less!
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Moeen Ali has 100 Test wickets! The second fastest to the 100 wickets-2000 runs mark after Tony Greig, no less!
He's bowled really well today, looking really dangerous.
and there goes Duminy 104-4 in a really strong position now.
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Moeen Ali has 100 Test wickets! The second fastest to the 100 wickets-2000 runs mark after Tony Greig, no less!
He's bowled really well today, looking really dangerous.
and there goes Duminy 104-4 in a really strong position now.
Yep. Be interesting to see Root's captaincy in this position. I felt Cook too often lost the plot when we were in a good position and let the opposition tail get cheap runs. .
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Moeen Ali has 100 Test wickets! The second fastest to the 100 wickets-2000 runs mark after Tony Greig, no less!
He's bowled really well today, looking really dangerous.
and there goes Duminy 104-4 in a really strong position now.
Yep. Be interesting to see Root's captaincy in this position. I felt Cook too often lost the plot when we were in a good position and let the opposition tail get cheap runs. .
4 slips tells a story.
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Mo showed his value again.
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Wag wag.
Brilliant little t20 inspired partnership from Broad and Jimmy. That's got to feel like a kick in the balls for the bowlers after working so hard to try to keep the target down.
No doubt it's happened before, but I can't recall any examples of a test number 11 hitting a 6 as Jimmy did off Morne Morkel.
I thought Root's captaincy was imaginative and reminded me in some ways of Michael Vaughan, which isn't surprising as Vaughan is a mentor to Root. Hopefully Joe won't become as odious a twat though!
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Moeen is such an important, and underrated, player in this side.
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I know the counter argument will be there's still 2 days to go and we're in a good position but that was watching paint dry batting this afternoon against a weakened attack.
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I know the counter argument will be there's still 2 days to go and we're in a good position but that was watching paint dry batting this afternoon against a weakened attack.
It was tedious going. I think in can be tempered slightly with a pitch that appears to have got a bit low and slow for the seamers, and the spinners causing a few issues bowling into the rough.
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I know the counter argument will be there's still 2 days to go and we're in a good position but that was watching paint dry batting this afternoon against a weakened attack.
It was tedious going. I think in can be tempered slightly with a pitch that appears to have got a bit low and slow for the seamers, and the spinners causing a few issues bowling into the rough.
It was but safety first, get the lead up to 275 and then you can have a slog for an hour.
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Warm day - let them toil in the field. Nothing wrong with that. Its also only day 3 so no need to rush we have 2 days left and finishing the day on 170-4 or 5 gives them more of the initiative than we need to give them. Keep going until tea or an hour or so tomorrow with the game beyond ZAF. Its not easy to defend for 4 sessions.
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I'd probably try to have 30-40 minutes before tea to force them to have the quick turn around and 4-5 overs each from Jimmy and Broad, bat that long adn we'd be looking at a lead of 350-400 which should be safe but is also tempting enough.
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There's been some pretty inconsistent bounce so far this morning. Batting is going to be difficult.
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Folding like a deck of cards here. 4/10.
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Yep, that's some collapse. Though if the lower order can scrape 60/70 to put the target over 300 I'd still be reasonably confident
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The pitch looks horrible right now, offering some big turn and some really awkward bounce so I agree, if we can eek another 45-50 out of this you'd have to say we're on top, I think it's already a tough chase because these are the sort of conditions where Broad bowls one of his spells.
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Mo gone, 180-6
Good little bit of aggression from Bairstow to put the pressure back on them though.
Need the tail to stick with him now and he can just carry on as he is (which suits him anyway). The target is pretty much there now so it's just about grabbing extra runs from here.
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Feel for Dawson there, that's a fucking rank delivery that you'd never expect to see in a test.
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Lead up to 317, I reckon we have to fuck up in the field to lose from here.
The other thing here is that it highlights the risks of going with 4 bowlers (and mirrors the problems England have had), once you get up to 80 overs and they've all thrown down 20 each they start to look a bit tired, add in an injury and you get bowlers that are throwing down horrid full toss rubbish and the opposition getting valuable runs in the tail. Having a couple of proper all rounders so you get a fifth bowler is so much better.
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Lead now 323.
This is as bad a pitch that I've seen at Lords for many years. It's extremely dry and as a result is deteriorating badly.
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Happy with that, 330 is a massive target on a pitch that's falling apart.
Englands game to lose from here I reckon.
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Moeen will be vital for England in this innings. I can see him taking a 5fer.
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Moeen will be vital for England in this innings. I can see him taking a 5fer.
Good call.
I think he's been man of the match, he's bowled superbly and was very good with the bat first innings as well, playing a big part in the 3rd session on the first day which was, in my opinion, where the game was won.
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6 now. 10 in the match. Great game for him - MotM.
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Well that was a pretty straightforward win in the end. If this weather continues, the pitches are going to be dry as bone come the end of August.
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Didn't see it but I hate when matches are decided by bad pitches rather than 'homers'. Was this the former or the latter?
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It was decided by rank South African fielding in the first innings, pitch was same for both sides they just gave us 100-120 too many first knock.
Moeeeeeeeeeen
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Poor fielding but also a brilliant knock from Root and Ali, sessions like that are rare in test cricket and SA just never looked like they'd be able to make up for it.
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Didn't see it but I hate when matches are decided by bad pitches rather than 'homers'. Was this the former or the latter?
The pitch did what pitches are supposed to do; offered a bit to the seamers early on (when SA didn't take their chances) and then provided something for the spinners.
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Moeen was excellent.
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Didn't see it but I hate when matches are decided by bad pitches rather than 'homers'. Was this the former or the latter?
Neither really. The SKY Sports pundits praised it to a man saying it is exactly what a test pitch should be like.
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Even heard Boycott saying it's exactly how a Test pitch should be!
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It was, you need a pitch that deteriorates as the game goes.
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It was, you need a pitch that deteriorates as the game goes.
Ideally you want the five days, but I think the quicker scoring rates now impact on that.
Got something to build on going in to Trent Bridge now.
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The pitch probably started to deteriorate badly maybe a day early, but other than that it was fine and England played the perfect Test, win the toss, get a good first innings score, make sure you get a first innings lead and then apply scoreboard pressure, Excellent performance all round really.
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Moeen was excellent.
He absolutely destroyed them didn't he?
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A bit surprising that there's been nothing on here. Was an odd day, Stokes seemed to go from ball-to-ball being really dangerous or really shit.
From 235-6 we really should've been looking at bowling them for 300-350 but we bowled really poorly in the last hour.
I'd definitely rather have Woakes in the team than Wood or Dawson, who both looked pretty ineffective in the main. I think winning this one could be tough from here.
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I remember before the start seeing Morris and Philander batting relatively high up and thinking if we get into them early we'll get right through them.
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A bit surprising that there's been nothing on here. Was an odd day, Stokes seemed to go from ball-to-ball being really dangerous or really shit.
From 235-6 we really should've been looking at bowling them for 300-350 but we bowled really poorly in the last hour.
I'd definitely rather have Woakes in the team than Wood or Dawson, who both looked pretty ineffective in the main. I think winning this one could be tough from here.
I like Wood, he has the ability to make something happen out of nothing. He looked pretty ordinary yesterday though.
Dawson looks like an average county bowler to me and is a strange selection. Moeen is a much better bowler and so once Woakes is fit Dawson should make way.
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Good work from Anderson to make light work of the tail this morning.
Gut feeling is that is prob 40-50 runs too many for this wicket, considering the fragility in the England batting line up. Really needed to cash in either at the start of play yesterday, or keep the foot on the throat when it was 200-odd for 6.
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Good work from Anderson to make light work of the tail this morning.
Gut feeling is that is prob 40-50 runs too many for this wicket, considering the fragility in the England batting line up. Really needed to cash in either at the start of play yesterday, or keep the foot on the throat when it was 200-odd for 6.
I'm not sure, I think that was probably about par. The pitch is doing a bit this morning but it'll settle I think so if we can get to lunch safely I suspect it'll get easier from there. On top of that there is, for me, a drop in quality after Morkel and Philander so again, get through their spells unharmed and it should get easier.
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Good work from Anderson to make light work of the tail this morning.
Gut feeling is that is prob 40-50 runs too many for this wicket, considering the fragility in the England batting line up. Really needed to cash in either at the start of play yesterday, or keep the foot on the throat when it was 200-odd for 6.
I'm not sure, I think that was probably about par. The pitch is doing a bit this morning but it'll settle I think so if we can get to lunch safely I suspect it'll get easier from there. On top of that there is, for me, a drop in quality after Morkel and Philander so again, get through their spells unharmed and it should get easier.
Another poor start and pressure on Root to get us out of trouble again.
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Yep, as I said though, once Morkel and Philander were out of the attack we dominated them.
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However many times we got back to Ballance, he just isn't good enough.Time to bring Buttler back.
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However many times we got back to Ballance, he just isn't good enough.Time to bring Buttler back.
I don't think Ballance is a number 3 and doesn't look like he is going to be the answer there. We have really struggled to replace Strauss and Trott at the top of the order.
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Ballance is just like Hick and Key, too good at county level to ignore but out of their depth at test level.
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Bizarre one there. Dawson was nowhere near that!
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Dawson is shit nowhere near international quality.
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England have struggled to cope with English conditions.
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Looking forward to us chasing down a target of 873 for the greatest win in test history.
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The quick scoring rates now mean that games can be taken away for teams pretty quickly. We're looking at dereat within four days here.
On reflection, Root's 190 in the first test might have masked our problems.
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The team is just set up wrong. Dawson and Ballance shouldn't be playing.
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The team is just set up wrong. Dawson and Ballance shouldn't be playing.
I agree about the balance of the side Paul, it's not quite right. It's going to be interesting when Woakes comes back, as really we need to get another batsman in the side. The batting line up is now beginning to look very fragile, something we really don't need going into an Ashes series this coming winter. Stokes, Woakes and Ali play for me, so we either go with Broad, Anderson and Wood as well or leave one of those three out and bring in an extra batsman.
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The team is just set up wrong. Dawson and Ballance shouldn't be playing.
I agree about the balance of the side Paul, it's not quite right. It's going to be interesting when Woakes comes back, as really we need to get another batsman in the side. The batting line up is now beginning to look very fragile, something we really don't need going into an Ashes series this coming winter. Stokes, Woakes and Ali play for me, so we either go with Broad, Anderson and Wood as well or leave one of those three out and bring in an extra batsman.
No worries lads, we won't even be putting out a team the way things are going down here.
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The team is just set up wrong. Dawson and Ballance shouldn't be playing.
I agree about the balance of the side Paul, it's not quite right. It's going to be interesting when Woakes comes back, as really we need to get another batsman in the side. The batting line up is now beginning to look very fragile, something we really don't need going into an Ashes series this coming winter. Stokes, Woakes and Ali play for me, so we either go with Broad, Anderson and Wood as well or leave one of those three out and bring in an extra batsman.
No worries lads, we won't even be putting out a team the way things are going down here.
Can't see it not happening. The backlash from the public would be too great wouldn't it?
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The team is just set up wrong. Dawson and Ballance shouldn't be playing.
I agree about the balance of the side Paul, it's not quite right. It's going to be interesting when Woakes comes back, as really we need to get another batsman in the side. The batting line up is now beginning to look very fragile, something we really don't need going into an Ashes series this coming winter. Stokes, Woakes and Ali play for me, so we either go with Broad, Anderson and Wood as well or leave one of those three out and bring in an extra batsman.
No worries lads, we won't even be putting out a team the way things are going down here.
Can't see it not happening. The backlash from the public would be too great wouldn't it?
Yeah, most likely someone will crack before things get too hot - sadly, I think it'll be the players, as I get the sense that public sentiment's slightly against them at this stage, even though it comes off to me as a classic bit of divide and rule by Cricket Australia.
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The problem has always been England's top order. We can't find anyone to open with Cook, we can't find anyone to go in at 3. And we someone to nail down number 5. i didn't see the sense in going back to ballance because in the long term he won't come good. We should try every 'new' batsman for an entire series before we discard them but I don't think jennings is good enough. The dropped lancashire player (name? Umeed?) I think will be fine and I don't mind him being dropped now. Make him work harder to get back and stay in the team). I think the 4-5-6-7 are Root, Bairstow,Stokes, Ali but it is too attacking at times. That's why I'd shift root up to 3, move bairstow to 6, Stokes 7, and bring Ali up to 5 - except that he bats well where he is. But by moving Root to 3 there's no obvious candidate for 4.
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Jennings and Ballance, decent Test level bowlers will sort these out which isn't good enough for 1 and 3.
TBF though, Jennings is out of his depth but young enough to come back at Test level, Ballance is just out of his depth.
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Not convinced on Jennings at all.
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Ballance fails again with his standard technical failing.
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I'm more than happy for him to return to Yorkshire, really missed his runs. Could do with Bairstow and Root back as well...
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I'm not usually one for chopping and changing but they must make changes at 1 and 3 for the next Test. I appreciate Ballance scores lots of County Championship runs but he's never looked like he's been good enough at the highest level. Technical flaws get exposed and his are routinely exposed now.
Jennings too is just not technically good enough right now. They'll ruin another openers career if they aren't careful.
I'm not sure who they turn to but it really can't be these 2. Shudder to think how Starc, Cummins, Hazlewood and Pattinson would work them over in the Winter on quick Aussie pitches.
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Root bowled....gonna be all over by tea
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I'm not usually one for chopping and changing but they must make changes at 1 and 3 for the next Test. I appreciate Ballance scores lots of County Championship runs but he's never looked like he's been good enough at the highest level. Technical flaws get exposed and his are routinely exposed now.
Jennings too is just not technically good enough right now. They'll ruin another openers career if they aren't careful.
I'm not sure who they turn to but it really can't be these 2. Shudder to think how Starc, Cummins, Hazlewood and Pattinson would work them over in the Winter on quick Aussie pitches.
As Bob Willis said after the first test, this is Ballance's last chance and he will be dropped quickly if he doesn't perform. I expect Jennings will be given more time, but will be moved to three. Stoneman is the next cab off the rank isn't he?
Part of the problem is that the top three are all left handers and it means bowlers can settle on a line and length quite early.
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For all the impressive stuff England have done in One-Day cricket over the last year or two, our batting options at Test level look very limited.
Options to come in at the top of the order are people like Hameed (hasn't hit a 50 in something like 10 innings for Lancs), Hales (one-day specialist for me) and then a host of Jennings-type players who I don't think could step up.
As for Ballance, although he is another Hick/Ramprakash who looks unlikely to ever be good enough for England, surely he should have been batted at no.5 where he has averaged over 100 for Yorkshire this summer?
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When we are good we are very good. When we are bad we are truly awful.
We have lost a considerable amount of tests in the last year and our batsmen seem incapable of applying themselves and grafting an innings.
In the last few years we've lost Strauss, Pietersen, Trott and Bell and their runs have not been replaced which is concerning.
I susepct Ballance was a Captain's pick by Joe Root, they're mates after all. Ballance has never fixed the technical flaws in his game so he needs to be jettisoned. I'd stick with Jennings and recall Hameed who seemed to have the temperament for opening in test cricket. He's out of form at the moment so selection may give him a timely boost. Woakes should return for Dawson and Ali should be the first choice spinner.
Welcome to captaincy Joe, I suspect the victory in your first test was just papering over the cracks.
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Truly dreadful performance. These collapses are unacceptable.
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That was a stuffing
TMS were saying that SA bowled well but there must have been a bit of cantbearsed about the England batting
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There is a lack of application and technique in our line up.
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There is a lack of application and technique in our line up.
Geoffrey's stick of rhubarb springs to mind.
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Truly dreadful performance. These collapses are unacceptable.
Agree, that was a pretty pathetic effort. It was almost as if they knew the game had gone and just folded. As someone mentioned above, for all the strides we have made in the shorter formats of the game over the past couple of years, we seem to be regressing pretty badly in test matches. On reflection, Root's 190 saved us in the first test.
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Having seen the highlights agree with all the above comments, but gotta give full credit to South Africa superb bowling, fielding and captaincy by Du Plessis.
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New US Cricket League to Launch in 2020:
A U.S. professional sports development team has tapped the Atlanta office of JLL to scout sites in the metro area — and seven other states — for a newly established professional cricket franchise. Global Sports Ventures announced last year that it entered into a $70M licensing agreement with the USA Cricket Association to establish eight professional cricket teams in North America, spending an estimated $2.4B on infrastructure and business development.
While no specific sites have been identified yet, JLL International Director David Demarest has been tapped by Philadelphia-based GSV to scout Atlanta and seven other cities for stadium sites: New York; East Brunswick, New Jersey; Washington, D.C.; Orlando, Florida; Dallas; Chicago; and San Francisco. The plan is to launch the initial eight teams in time to start a season in 2020, officials said, after which the league will expand by as many as six other markets.
Demarest is no stranger to complex stadium deals, having been involved in talks between the Atlanta Braves and Cobb County for the development of SunTrust Park and the surrounding mixed-use project.
“We know our plans are ambitious, and GSV is committed to launching a professional cricket league in the U.S. by 2020,” GSV Chairman Jignesh “Jay” Pandya stated in an email release.
Each cricket stadium is projected to cost between $70M and $125M with an ancillary mixed-use component of up to $100M each. The projects could include a stadium, parking, a clubhouse, restaurants, hotels, retail, residential and office space, officials said. Officials said the first sites should be revealed in the near future. JLL could not be reached for comment as of press time.
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The thing that's frustrating me about England's batting is that whilst bringing in any replacements for Dawson/Ballance/Jennings is a risk, there are no County Championship games going on during July at all, so there is no way of seeing who is in form, getting a closer look at their technique etc. Shoddy scheduling from the ECB, again in this country we don't help our national side enough.
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I blame that stupid hit and run game for the failings of our top order.
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I blame that stupid hit and run game for the failings of our top order.
Doesn't seem to bother players from other countries
Even the Boycott-esque Test player Hashim Amla players in the IPL
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The thing that's frustrating me about England's batting is that whilst bringing in any replacements for Dawson/Ballance/Jennings is a risk, there are no County Championship games going on during July at all, so there is no way of seeing who is in form, getting a closer look at their technique etc. Shoddy scheduling from the ECB, again in this country we don't help our national side enough.
I was thinking that myself, but not sure if the ICC trophy might have had an impact on scheduling. The first test series of the summer usually starts before June.
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I blame that stupid hit and run game for the failings of our top order.
Doesn't seem to bother players from other countries
Even the Boycott-esque Test player Hashim Amla players in the IPL
On top of that the best batsman we have is great in all 3 formats.
The problem is that we just don't seem to be able to get players who have the right technique and attitude in the top 5.
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I blame that stupid hit and run game for the failings of our top order.
Doesn't seem to bother players from other countries
Even the Boycott-esque Test player Hashim Amla players in the IPL
On top of that the best batsman we have is great in all 3 formats.
The problem is that we just don't seem to be able to get players who have the right technique and attitude in the top 5.
Not sure that's true Root and Cook are fine and I have no problem with Bairstow. He played a poor shot yesterday but I think he can play the situation normally.
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The other player with "stickability" that we miss is Taylor. He seemed to have the technique and temperament to succeed at Test level.
Ali gets useful runs coming in down the order so I wonder if it's time to promote him. It's one thing scoring runs with the tail, it's far better to have a sound foundation from your top order to build on when you get to number 7 or 8.
Ballance and Dawson should go and if he's fit Woakes should come back in. I'd keep Jennings and recall Hameed. Give them both the incentive that an Ashes place is up for grabs and they have the rest of the summer to claim it. Otherwise we risk returning to the chop and change selection of the 1980's and 1990's.
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From the Beeb
England's Gary Ballance has been ruled out of the third Test against South Africa at The Oval after fracturing his left index finger.
The Yorkshire batsman saw a surgeon in Leeds on Tuesday after being hit on the hand by a Morne Morkel bouncer in the heavy defeat at Trent Bridge.
The 27-year-old will continue to be monitored by England's medical team and could be fit for the fourth Test at Old Trafford next month.
The third Test begins on 27 July.
Uncapped trio Mark Stoneman, Tom Westley and Dawid Malan are among names the England selectors could choose from to replace Ballance in the line-up.
Left-hander Ballance, batting at three, has struggled for runs in England's opening two Tests of the summer.
He scored just 20 and 34 as England won the opening Test of the best-of-four series, and contributed a total of just 31 as the hosts succumbed to a 340-run defeat at Trent Bridge.
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I blame that stupid hit and run game for the failings of our top order.
Doesn't seem to bother players from other countries
Even the Boycott-esque Test player Hashim Amla players in the IPL
On top of that the best batsman we have is great in all 3 formats.
The problem is that we just don't seem to be able to get players who have the right technique and attitude in the top 5.
Not sure that's true Root and Cook are fine and I have no problem with Bairstow. He played a poor shot yesterday but I think he can play the situation normally.
Sorry, I should have said enough players with ...
I agree those 3 are fine and Ali, Stokes and Woakes are as good a 7, 8 and 9 as any in world cricket and should be played as such, I know some people will say that the first 2 are too good to be that low but there's no point promoting them and bringing in extra bowlers and you wouldn't bring in a dedicated batsman and play him below 7 so it's the best option.
The problem is that we really need to fill the other spots (2, 3 and 5 for me but Bairstow could easily jump up one). I think Hameed will come back strong but this year was always going to be a tough one after such a quick rise last season but he's probably 2 years away really and the other 2 spots are anyone's guess.
I'd be tempted to take a look at Malan in place of Ballance but he's another who seems better suited to the limited overs stuff but there's no one else that's really jumping out. Keeping Jennings therefore seems sensible and then we really need to find someone to come in at 5/6. I honestly have no idea who that could be though. A few years back it looked like Hain would be ideal to come in and take a spot like that but his game in the longer form seems to have abandoned him
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I blame that stupid hit and run game for the failings of our top order.
Doesn't seem to bother players from other countries
Even the Boycott-esque Test player Hashim Amla players in the IPL
On top of that the best batsman we have is great in all 3 formats.
The problem is that we just don't seem to be able to get players who have the right technique and attitude in the top 5.
Not sure that's true Root and Cook are fine and I have no problem with Bairstow. He played a poor shot yesterday but I think he can play the situation normally.
Sorry, I should have said enough players with ...
I agree those 3 are fine and Ali, Stokes and Woakes are as good a 7, 8 and 9 as any in world cricket and should be played as such, I know some people will say that the first 2 are too good to be that low but there's no point promoting them and bringing in extra bowlers and you wouldn't bring in a dedicated batsman and play him below 7 so it's the best option.
The problem is that we really need to fill the other spots (2, 3 and 5 for me but Bairstow could easily jump up one). I think Hameed will come back strong but this year was always going to be a tough one after such a quick rise last season but he's probably 2 years away really and the other 2 spots are anyone's guess.
I'd be tempted to take a look at Malan in place of Ballance but he's another who seems better suited to the limited overs stuff but there's no one else that's really jumping out. Keeping Jennings therefore seems sensible and then we really need to find someone to come in at 5/6. I honestly have no idea who that could be though. A few years back it looked like Hain would be ideal to come in and take a spot like that but his game in the longer form seems to have abandoned him
I agree with that Paul and would add that I would put Bairstow at six as well, as I think Stokes is batting one place too high. 6, 7, 8, 9 of Bairstow, Stokes, Ali and Woakes should be fine going forward. I think the point made above about James Taylor is a good one, as he was just settling into that role at five. I don't think we have ever really replaced Strauss and Trott at the top of the order though and look very fragile there.
We seem to be always looking to the future in test cricket and in doing so, we seem to discard players very hastily. For me, the priority now should be the Ashes in the winter and that is it. We should be looking at players for the upcoming six month window. I am biased, but if we are looking for someone to fill that number five slot and bring a bit of stability over the next few months, Ian Bell would be as good as anyone. One of the female pundits on 5 Live laughingly dismissed the idea (when someone text in to say that Compton should be considered, she laughed saying he was in the past and we shouldn't be looking at players like him and Ian Bell), which I found a bit disrespectful seeing as Bell has got over 20 test hundreds and only really started to struggle when he started being moved around from five. I agree that there has to be some forward planning, but we have time to do that after the Ashes in preparation for the next one here.
In terms of the team for the Oval, I would bring in Stoneman to open with Cook (another left hander!) and move Jennings to three. I would have given Ballance another go a bit further down the order, but with him out, we've got the choice of dropping Dawson and maybe playing an extra batsman or keeping Dawson in as well.
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I think Dawson has to go, I get what they were trying to do and I was willing to give him a couple of games but he looks totally out of his depth.
I'm not sure about Stoneman, he's having a decent season but he's never looked good enough for me.
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I blame that stupid hit and run game for the failings of our top order.
Doesn't seem to bother players from other countries
Even the Boycott-esque Test player Hashim Amla players in the IPL
On top of that the best batsman we have is great in all 3 formats.
The problem is that we just don't seem to be able to get players who have the right technique and attitude in the top 5.
Not sure that's true Root and Cook are fine and I have no problem with Bairstow. He played a poor shot yesterday but I think he can play the situation normally.
Sorry, I should have said enough players with ...
I agree those 3 are fine and Ali, Stokes and Woakes are as good a 7, 8 and 9 as any in world cricket and should be played as such, I know some people will say that the first 2 are too good to be that low but there's no point promoting them and bringing in extra bowlers and you wouldn't bring in a dedicated batsman and play him below 7 so it's the best option.
The problem is that we really need to fill the other spots (2, 3 and 5 for me but Bairstow could easily jump up one). I think Hameed will come back strong but this year was always going to be a tough one after such a quick rise last season but he's probably 2 years away really and the other 2 spots are anyone's guess.
I'd be tempted to take a look at Malan in place of Ballance but he's another who seems better suited to the limited overs stuff but there's no one else that's really jumping out. Keeping Jennings therefore seems sensible and then we really need to find someone to come in at 5/6. I honestly have no idea who that could be though. A few years back it looked like Hain would be ideal to come in and take a spot like that but his game in the longer form seems to have abandoned him
I agree with that Paul and would add that I would put Bairstow at six as well, as I think Stokes is batting one place too high. 6, 7, 8, 9 of Bairstow, Stokes, Ali and Woakes should be fine going forward. I think the point made above about James Taylor is a good one, as he was just settling into that role at five. I don't think we have ever really replaced Strauss and Trott at the top of the order though and look very fragile there.
We seem to be always looking to the future in test cricket and in doing so, we seem to discard players very hastily. For me, the priority now should be the Ashes in the winter and that is it. We should be looking at players for the upcoming six month window. I am biased, but if we are looking for someone to fill that number five slot and bring a bit of stability over the next few months, Ian Bell would be as good as anyone. One of the female pundits on 5 Live laughingly dismissed the idea (when someone text in to say that Compton should be considered, she laughed saying he was in the past and we shouldn't be looking at players like him and Ian Bell), which I found a bit disrespectful seeing as Bell has got over 20 test hundreds and only really started to struggle when he started being moved around from five. I agree that there has to be some forward planning, but we have time to do that after the Ashes in preparation for the next one here.
In terms of the team for the Oval, I would bring in Stoneman to open with Cook (another left hander!) and move Jennings to three. I would have given Ballance another go a bit further down the order, but with him out, we've got the choice of dropping Dawson and maybe playing an extra batsman or keeping Dawson in as well.
Bell has hardly set the world alight since he was dropped. I thought he'd score shed loads of runs and force himself back into contention but that hasn't happened.
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I still blame that stupid hit and run game.
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I don't get why Hameed gets mentioned to come back in so much. He averages 19 in First Class cricket in 2017, he also looks to me like he doesn't yet have the physique to really be playing adult cricket. I think he needs a strong summer in the gym as at the moment he just won't have the power and the answers to a rapid Australian bowling attack in the winter. I can understand a Bell recall being ruled out because he hasn't scored the runs this year, but by the same token it's unfair for people to then say Hameed should play.
I'd go for giving Duckett another go, a fine player who has shown he can do it at International level in the shorter formats, and is in form with 2 hundreds in his last two First Class games. Sam Robson should also be under consideration for another shot.
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I don't get why Hameed gets mentioned to come back in so much. He averages 19 in First Class cricket in 2017, he also looks to me like he doesn't yet have the physique to really be playing adult cricket. I think he needs a strong summer in the gym as at the moment he just won't have the power and the answers to a rapid Australian bowling attack in the winter. I can understand a Bell recall being ruled out because he hasn't scored the runs this year, but by the same token it's unfair for people to then say Hameed should play.
I'd go for giving Duckett another go, a fine player who has shown he can do it at International level in the shorter formats, and is in form with 2 hundreds in his last two First Class games. Sam Robson should also be under consideration for another shot.
Some good points there and Robson and Duckett having another go are two decent suggestions. If he does come back, I would prefer to see Duckett further down the order, possibly at six or seven.
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I blame that stupid hit and run game for the failings of our top order.
Doesn't seem to bother players from other countries
Even the Boycott-esque Test player Hashim Amla players in the IPL
On top of that the best batsman we have is great in all 3 formats.
The problem is that we just don't seem to be able to get players who have the right technique and attitude in the top 5.
Not sure that's true Root and Cook are fine and I have no problem with Bairstow. He played a poor shot yesterday but I think he can play the situation normally.
Sorry, I should have said enough players with ...
I agree those 3 are fine and Ali, Stokes and Woakes are as good a 7, 8 and 9 as any in world cricket and should be played as such, I know some people will say that the first 2 are too good to be that low but there's no point promoting them and bringing in extra bowlers and you wouldn't bring in a dedicated batsman and play him below 7 so it's the best option.
The problem is that we really need to fill the other spots (2, 3 and 5 for me but Bairstow could easily jump up one). I think Hameed will come back strong but this year was always going to be a tough one after such a quick rise last season but he's probably 2 years away really and the other 2 spots are anyone's guess.
I'd be tempted to take a look at Malan in place of Ballance but he's another who seems better suited to the limited overs stuff but there's no one else that's really jumping out. Keeping Jennings therefore seems sensible and then we really need to find someone to come in at 5/6. I honestly have no idea who that could be though. A few years back it looked like Hain would be ideal to come in and take a spot like that but his game in the longer form seems to have abandoned him
I agree with that Paul and would add that I would put Bairstow at six as well, as I think Stokes is batting one place too high. 6, 7, 8, 9 of Bairstow, Stokes, Ali and Woakes should be fine going forward. I think the point made above about James Taylor is a good one, as he was just settling into that role at five. I don't think we have ever really replaced Strauss and Trott at the top of the order though and look very fragile there.
We seem to be always looking to the future in test cricket and in doing so, we seem to discard players very hastily. For me, the priority now should be the Ashes in the winter and that is it. We should be looking at players for the upcoming six month window. I am biased, but if we are looking for someone to fill that number five slot and bring a bit of stability over the next few months, Ian Bell would be as good as anyone. One of the female pundits on 5 Live laughingly dismissed the idea (when someone text in to say that Compton should be considered, she laughed saying he was in the past and we shouldn't be looking at players like him and Ian Bell), which I found a bit disrespectful seeing as Bell has got over 20 test hundreds and only really started to struggle when he started being moved around from five. I agree that there has to be some forward planning, but we have time to do that after the Ashes in preparation for the next one here.
In terms of the team for the Oval, I would bring in Stoneman to open with Cook (another left hander!) and move Jennings to three. I would have given Ballance another go a bit further down the order, but with him out, we've got the choice of dropping Dawson and maybe playing an extra batsman or keeping Dawson in as well.
Bell has hardly set the world alight since he was dropped. I thought he'd score shed loads of runs and force himself back into contention but that hasn't happened.
True, but I did say I was a bit biased!! I still think if they were to say to him, you've got the West Indies series and one last crack at the Aussies batting at five, he'd be an option.
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I don't get why Hameed gets mentioned to come back in so much. He averages 19 in First Class cricket in 2017, he also looks to me like he doesn't yet have the physique to really be playing adult cricket. I think he needs a strong summer in the gym as at the moment he just won't have the power and the answers to a rapid Australian bowling attack in the winter. I can understand a Bell recall being ruled out because he hasn't scored the runs this year, but by the same token it's unfair for people to then say Hameed should play.
I'd go for giving Duckett another go, a fine player who has shown he can do it at International level in the shorter formats, and is in form with 2 hundreds in his last two First Class games. Sam Robson should also be under consideration for another shot.
Some good points there and Robson and Duckett having another go are two decent suggestions. If he does come back, I would prefer to see Duckett further down the order, possibly at six or seven.
It's a difficult one with Duckett, as he is explosive so the temptation is to say bat him at 5 or 6 (just above or below Bairstow), but his centuries for Northants have been opening. I'd therefore strongly consider him opening with Cook to give that right hand/left hand balance at the top and also the mix between a steady opener and a more aggressive one, then Jennings at 3.
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I don't get why Hameed gets mentioned to come back in so much. He averages 19 in First Class cricket in 2017, he also looks to me like he doesn't yet have the physique to really be playing adult cricket. I think he needs a strong summer in the gym as at the moment he just won't have the power and the answers to a rapid Australian bowling attack in the winter. I can understand a Bell recall being ruled out because he hasn't scored the runs this year, but by the same token it's unfair for people to then say Hameed should play.
I'd go for giving Duckett another go, a fine player who has shown he can do it at International level in the shorter formats, and is in form with 2 hundreds in his last two First Class games. Sam Robson should also be under consideration for another shot.
Some good points there and Robson and Duckett having another go are two decent suggestions. If he does come back, I would prefer to see Duckett further down the order, possibly at six or seven.
It's a difficult one with Duckett, as he is explosive so the temptation is to say bat him at 5 or 6 (just above or below Bairstow), but his centuries for Northants have been opening. I'd therefore strongly consider him opening with Cook to give that right hand/left hand balance at the top and also the mix between a steady opener and a more aggressive one, then Jennings at 3.
He struggled at the top of the order on his previous outings for England, so I'd be more inclined to reintroduce him in the middle order where this is a bit less pressure. We need to find an opener who will do a job for us over the next six months and we can reassess it again after that,
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Tom Westley from Essex to make his debut at number 3 in the next test. David Malan also called up.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/40666788
For those of us who don't knw too much about him - including me - here are his Cricinfo stats:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/player/214265.html
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Underwhelmed by that one, averages 37 and that's from a career mainly spent in Division 2.
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I'm hoping they haven't permanently cast aside Duckett I still think there's a bloody good player there.
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Underwhelmed by that one, averages 37 and that's from a career mainly spent in Division 2.
The cupboard is looking particularly bare at the moment isn't it? I re-read Michael Atherton's autobiography recently and even though it was written over a decade ago, he was saying that county cricket needed reforming. The flaw with the two tier Championship system is that unlike football and other sports, the better players aren't necessarily going to stay in the top flight. Might not be a problem for the more experienced campaigners like Cook, but I think it is quite a big gap between D2 and test level and I'm not sure it is healthy to have the best young players playing at that level.
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Underwhelmed by that one, averages 37 and that's from a career mainly spent in Division 2.
The cupboard is looking particularly bare at the moment isn't it? I re-read Michael Atherton's autobiography recently and even though it was written over a decade ago, he was saying that county cricket needed reforming. The flaw with the two tier Championship system is that unlike football and other sports, the better players aren't necessarily going to stay in the top flight. Might not be a problem for the more experienced campaigners like Cook, but I think it is quite a big gap between D2 and test level and I'm not sure it is healthy to have the best young players playing at that level.
Now that test Cricket is played all year around, the top players from all countries no longer spend a season playing county cricket and as a result the standard of the county game is poorer.
At one time every county except Yorkshire had a sprinkling of overseas players. Virtually all of the great West Indian team of the 1970's and 1980's played county cricket. As a result county players were testing themselves against the very best in the world. Eventually even Yorkshire abandoned their home-grown players only policy and signed Sachin Tendulkar.
Now it could be argued that the England test team was poor during this period and they were. However the county game is poorer because the likes of Gayle, McCullum etc travel the world chasing the T20 dollar rather than playing county cricket.
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Underwhelmed by that one, averages 37 and that's from a career mainly spent in Division 2.
The cupboard is looking particularly bare at the moment isn't it? I re-read Michael Atherton's autobiography recently and even though it was written over a decade ago, he was saying that county cricket needed reforming. The flaw with the two tier Championship system is that unlike football and other sports, the better players aren't necessarily going to stay in the top flight. Might not be a problem for the more experienced campaigners like Cook, but I think it is quite a big gap between D2 and test level and I'm not sure it is healthy to have the best young players playing at that level.
Cook hardly played for Essex last year when they got promoted. Most internationals hardly play, so if the County is successful you tend to lose players to the international team, Yorkshire being a good example of this recently.
As an Essex fan, I'm looking forward to Tom Westley playing for England and hope he does well.
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We all hope he does well but looking at his form he seems to have been picked on the back of one century for the England Lions.
Not that I've ever seen him play of course!
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In fairness, he's averaging over 50 this year and has helped them to the top of the league.
Maybe he has worked at his game and got better? Plenty of us, myself included, thought Woakes would never make an international.
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Yep agreed and I was one of those.
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Surrey on TV tonight in the T20. Surrey's top four looks a bit weak - Roy, Finch, Sangakkara, Pietersen!!
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Maybe he has worked at his game and got better? Plenty of us, myself included, thought Woakes would never make an international.
Bairstow is another, he's now one of the most important members of the Test team.
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i'd drop him...
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i'd drop him...
Ha!
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I like Bairstow but I was worried that pretty much 2 summers of carrying drinks for England rather than actually playing cricket was going to stop him being the player they hoped for.
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I like Bairstow but I was worried that pretty much 2 summers of carrying drinks for England rather than actually playing cricket was going to stop him being the player they hoped for.
I still think 5 and 6 are one place too high in the batting order for Bairstow and Stokes respectively.
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I agree on that, nudge them down and 6-11 (when all are fit) picks itself.
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I agree on that, nudge them down and 6-11 (when all are fit) picks itself.
Agree Paul, though it would give us a bit of a headache to pick three from Woakes, Wood, Broad and Anderson.
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Woakes ahead of Wood every time for me.
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I think it's tough, I think Woakes starts every time but in Aus we'll need pace. I'd consider Wood ahead of Jimmy in Aus.
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I think it's tough, I think Woakes starts every time but in Aus we'll need pace. I'd consider Wood ahead of Jimmy in Aus.
I agree Paul. I like Mark Wood and he reminds me a bit of Simon Jones, in that I think he is a good first change bowler. The best balanced England attack I've seen was the one in the 2005 Ashes. We had the opening combination of Hoggard and Harmison, Jones first change, Flintoff bowling short spells and Giles as the spinner. I think we could replicate that balance, but in that scenario the choice would probably come down to Woakesor Anderson to try and move the ball early on.
There is of course the option of keeping Stokes at six and going with five seamers, but I would prefer to strengthen the batting a bit.
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That was a fantastic result for England woman's team to lift the world cup against India. Entertaining all the way through the match.
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Well done the ladies a great final.
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Brilliant final yesterday. My eldest wants to know if there are cricket clubs she can join on the back of it. Brilliant inspiration
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There's talk that the event was such a success that it might motivate the ICC to finally push for cricket's inclusion at The Olympics. That would be huge, especially for the women's game.
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There's talk that the event was such a success that it might motivate the ICC to finally push for cricket's inclusion at The Olympics. That would be huge, especially for the women's game.
Which format of the game though - 50 overs or T20? Isn't having T20 in the Commonwealth Games part of the Birmingham bid?
One thing I have always wondered about cricket at the Olympics or Commonwealth Games is what would happen to the West Indies and in terms of the Commonwealth Games whether the likes of Eoin Morgan could play for England.
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The Windies would have to play as their respective islands. Morgan would play for England because that's who he represents. If he'd have retired from England, due to current rules, he would have the option of turning out of Ireland.
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He wouldn't play for England, he'd play for Great Britain.
It would be T20 format.
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He wouldn't play for England, he'd play for Great Britain.
It would be T20 format.
He'd play for England in the Commonwealth
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He wouldn't play for England, he'd play for Great Britain.
It would be T20 format.
He'd play for England in the Commonwealth
*In playground vernacular and appropriate ironic tone*
Oh no! shaaaaaaaame!
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The Windies would have to play as their respective islands. Morgan would play for England because that's who he represents. If he'd have retired from England, due to current rules, he would have the option of turning out of Ireland.
Might throw up a few issues then. As a rule, I'm not in favour of certain sports being in the Olympics or Commonwealth Games. If an Olympic gold medal is not the highest accolade in the sport, then it shouldn't really be in.
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Wood out injured again. It's a real concern, because he's the only bowler we have who when fit can regularly hit high pace.
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Wood out injured again. It's a real concern, because he's the only bowler we have who when fit can regularly hit high pace.
This is why I don't include him in the best XI, he's just not reliable enough (in terms of fitness).
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It's a shame Tymal Mills doesn't have the body for First Class cricket, that guy can send it down mid-90s.
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The Windies would have to play as their respective islands. Morgan would play for England because that's who he represents. If he'd have retired from England, due to current rules, he would have the option of turning out of Ireland.
Might throw up a few issues then. As a rule, I'm not in favour of certain sports being in the Olympics or Commonwealth Games. If an Olympic gold medal is not the highest accolade in the sport, then it shouldn't really be in.
Disagree. Get as many sports as possible in. Certainly the second-biggest sport on the planet should be in.
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Wood out injured again. It's a real concern, because he's the only bowler we have who when fit can regularly hit high pace.
It is and Roland-Jones is set to take his place. This is quite a big game really.
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The Windies would have to play as their respective islands. Morgan would play for England because that's who he represents. If he'd have retired from England, due to current rules, he would have the option of turning out of Ireland.
Might throw up a few issues then. As a rule, I'm not in favour of certain sports being in the Olympics or Commonwealth Games. If an Olympic gold medal is not the highest accolade in the sport, then it shouldn't really be in.
Well that's a totally different question and I agree.
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The Windies would have to play as their respective islands. Morgan would play for England because that's who he represents. If he'd have retired from England, due to current rules, he would have the option of turning out of Ireland.
Might throw up a few issues then. As a rule, I'm not in favour of certain sports being in the Olympics or Commonwealth Games. If an Olympic gold medal is not the highest accolade in the sport, then it shouldn't really be in.
Disagree. Get as many sports as possible in. Certainly the second-biggest sport on the planet should be in.
Yeah, I agree with that now.
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The Windies would have to play as their respective islands. Morgan would play for England because that's who he represents. If he'd have retired from England, due to current rules, he would have the option of turning out of Ireland.
Might throw up a few issues then. As a rule, I'm not in favour of certain sports being in the Olympics or Commonwealth Games. If an Olympic gold medal is not the highest accolade in the sport, then it shouldn't really be in.
Disagree. Get as many sports as possible in. Certainly the second-biggest sport on the planet should be in.
I'm not sure that the country has the stadiums to host baseball ;)
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Three players making their debut for England today
Apparently TRJ is the first player with a double-barrelled name to play a (mens) Test for England since the 30s
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I'd count Raman Subba Row from the late 50s, early 60s
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Jennings looking like another opener waiting to be lobbed on to the scrap heap, on the same pile as Compton, Carberry, Robson, Lyth, Hameed, Hales.
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Jennings looking like another opener waiting to be lobbed on to the scrap heap, on the same pile as Compton, Carberry, Robson, Lyth, Hameed, Hales.
It's been quite a run since Strauss retired. Hopefully Hameed can recover his form and be the long term option.
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Westley has looked quite assured in the number 3 slot at the moment.
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Following it on the BBC website. Seems be quite a battle of attrition so far.
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Already looking like it's going to need a big hundred from Cook to turn this around.
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That was some ball from Rabada to skittle Malan
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Nothing Malan could have done about his delivery. We need Cook to go big.
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Nothing Malan could have done about his delivery. We need Cook to go big.
Yep, with Stokes, Bairstow and Ali chipping in as well.
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Looking like one of Cook's more assured innings so far. I reckon 350 is a good score on this although a long way to go yet.
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Cook has been outstanding and Stokes battled hard.
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Anderson might be the key player with how the ball has been swinging.
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I do think that if I were picking a world 11 the first bowler I would pick would be Philander. He is always excellent.
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Chef gone. LBW bowled Morkel
Done because of how far back in his crease he stands
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Commentators talking about scores on this pitch and they think 300 would be a very good score. Sounds about right to me, this doesn't look like a big scoring pitch, there's been lots of movement and and the footholes already look big after less than 70 overs. Anderson and Ali will both be looking forward to bowling on this.
I'd like to see Stokes put his foot down a little once he gets his 50 (I'm aware he just hit 3 boundaries in an over) because the new ball will be very dangerous so I'd like us up around 250 when they take it. On top of that it looks like the sort of pitch where you're never really in and the bowlers can always get something out of it that's very difficult to deal with.
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We need the weather to remain the same when the South Africans bat. The Oval pitch always seem to become a batsman's paradise once the sun comes out. When it's overcast it's a bowler's dream pitch.
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We need the weather to remain the same when the South Africans bat. The Oval pitch always seem to become a batsman's paradise once the sun comes out. When it's overcast it's a bowler's dream pitch.
I don't think it's going to change any time soon, but there doesn't look like a lot of rain about before the end of play. The biggest concern here is the chance of rain tomorrow, it looks like we could lose half the day on the forecast.
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Stokes and Bairstow have added 50 in no time at all.
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Yep, looks like they've had the same thought as me to push the score before the new ball, I said 250, if they carry on like they are 270-280 is looking more likely.
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Commentators talking about scores on this pitch and they think 300 would be a very good score. Sounds about right to me, this doesn't look like a big scoring pitch, there's been lots of movement and and the footholes already look big after less than 70 overs. Anderson and Ali will both be looking forward to bowling on this.
Reading the BBC coverage, the general consensus is that the pitch is becoming a bit easier to bat on. Sounds obvious, but I think we need to squeeze as many first innings runs as possible. Going to come down to Stokes and Ali to do it, as I can't really see the remainder of the side adding too many.
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Commentators talking about scores on this pitch and they think 300 would be a very good score. Sounds about right to me, this doesn't look like a big scoring pitch, there's been lots of movement and and the footholes already look big after less than 70 overs. Anderson and Ali will both be looking forward to bowling on this.
Reading the BBC coverage, the general consensus is that the pitch is becoming a bit easier to bat on. Sounds obvious, but I think we need to squeeze as many first innings runs as possible. Going to come down to Stokes and Ali to do it, as I can't really see the remainder of the side adding too many.
I think the movement with the new ball showed that the pitch isn't massively easier than yesterday, it was just that losing Philander and not getting any control with the spinner meant we could make hay in the 60-80 period. Morkel looks just as dangerous now as he did yesterday.
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Very handy knock from Roland-Jones here and we're over 300 I think this is a decent score, if we can add another 40-50 then I'd say we're firmly on top.
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Roland-Jones out LBW, bugger.
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England 331-9 Broad out.
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If Jimmy can stick around I think Stokes will unleash the big shots. He wants a ton and the team needs 350+ to bowl at.
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Great ton from Stokes.
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In the context of the series, that ton from Stokes is vital.
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353 all out, great 112 from Stokes.
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I think that's a good score and there's plenty for the bowlers to work with.
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It will be a difficult 20 minutes or so before tea for the South African batsmen. Hopefully we can eke a couple of them out.
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If we haven't taken 4-5 by the close then our bowlers will have failed in my opinion, there's plenty to work with here.
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It will be a difficult 20 minutes or so before tea for the South African batsmen. Hopefully we can eke a couple of them out.
that would be perfect to have them 15-2 at tea.. :)
UTV
The Doc
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If we haven't taken 4-5 by the close then our bowlers will have failed in my opinion, there's plenty to work with here.
4 for 5 would be some collapse! 😉
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Roland-Jones started well. He bowled a nagging line and was rewarded with his first scalp after a review. 18-1 and Elgar gone so an early tea has been taken.
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23-2 Roland-Jones gets Kuhn.
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It will be a difficult 20 minutes or so before tea for the South African batsmen. Hopefully we can eke a couple of them out.
that would be perfect to have them 15-2 at tea.. :)
UTV
The Doc
all right I was a little out at 23/2.....now for 48/4 :)
UTV
The Doc
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Well this is going rather well for Roland-Jones!!
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Amla gone and Roland-Jones has his third. Quite a first day of test cricket for him!
Dr Butler, I think your second prediction is coming true!
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Three great wickets from Matt Le Tissier.
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If we haven't taken 4-5 by the close then our bowlers will have failed in my opinion, there's plenty to work with here.
4 for 5 would be some collapse! 😉
I think it was fair and the game so far is on my side, the ball is swinging all over the place it only needed one of our 4 quicks to work it out and the wickets were going to fall. The only real surprise is that TRJ was the one that got it first.
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The best two bowlers in this match have been Philander and TRJ, neither of whom are your modern lithe athletes
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The best two bowlers in this match have been Philander and TRJ, neither of whom are your modern lithe athletes
They've bowled the best lengths.
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That's the 5 then, can we clean them up by the end of play?
This shows just how well we played this morning though, I'll stick to my thinking that 300 was a good score and 350 was superb.
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It will be a difficult 20 minutes or so before tea for the South African batsmen. Hopefully we can eke a couple of them out.
that would be perfect to have them 15-2 at tea.. :)
UTV
The Doc
all right I was a little out at 23/2.....now for 48/4 :)
UTV
The Doc
Pfft. Miles off! ;)
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Tremendous from Stokes and TRJ.
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They are saying on the Sky coverage that Philander won't bat so if we get the last two wickets tonight for once I can see us enforcing the follow on.
This England team can be very frustrating at times. A wonderful performance so far in this test in sharp contrast to the woeful performance in the Trent Bridge test.
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76-7 and effectively 8 with Philander looking unlikely to bat if we get 2 more tonight. I really hope we push for this, they shouldn't be getting treble figures from here.
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We should enforce the follow on as well.
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Sounds like having to wear white trousers is not recommended for Veron at the moment
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England have dropped off a bit here.
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England have dropped off a bit here.
Shame we couldn't have got them all out tonight, but we are still in a great position. Not sure if Philander will be able to bat tomorrow, but hopefully we can finish them off pretty sharpish and build a really commanding lead.
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It didn't help that we had to bowl the spinners because the light was so bad. We lost momentum then & the batsmen played themselves in.
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Congrats to TR-J for his 'five for' and a that gives a decent lead. To be fair, the catching has been good so far.
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Did the Lord's tour today. Nearly two hours long. Highly recommended
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Shame about the rain delay but it shouldn't impact on us too much hopefully. The forecast supposedly looks OK for the next two days, so if we can score at a fairly decent rate tomorrow, we should have a big enough lead by tea.
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In a very commanding position here. Barring a disastrous collapse we should have more than a good enough lead to make the South Africans bat before tea.
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Did the Lord's tour today. Nearly two hours long. Highly recommended
I have done that. It's a super tour and no matter how much you know there is something to learn about this great game.
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I say declare at lunch with a lead of 350 that should be enough and with typical summer weather maximum time is needed to win the match.
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Congrats to TR-J for his 'five for' and a that gives a decent lead. To be fair, the catching has been good so far.
It's not right that England should be allowed two bowlers, Roland and Jones, to bowl simultaneously.
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Stokes and Malan need to push on a bit here, if we're going to take overs out of the game to push the score then we need to make good use of them. The lead is big enough to be very tough already so we're getting close to the point where they'll be thinking about surviving rather than chasing. I reckon another 40-50 for a lead around 420 and we should declare. If we cna get them facing 10-12 overs before tea then that's a tricky spell where we could see a wicket or 2 just like on Friday.
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A good, confident team would probably go for the early declaration.
But this England team is a patchy side, capable of hot spells -equally capable of being utter bobbins. If the likes of Amala or Faf get in, a vaguely competitive score can be chased down.
I'd push the lead beyond 440-460, just to be safe.
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Fucking declare, you twats!
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I think they've decided to bat until tea now. I'm not that upset, I think staying in for 120+ overs on this pitch will be tough. The target is, in my opinion, already too big to be chased down, it would be one of the greatest 4th innings of all time and this SA team don't have a good enough batting line-up to do that.
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I think they've decided to bat until tea now. I'm not that upset, I think staying in for 120+ overs on this pitch will be tough. The target is, in my opinion, already too big to be chased down, it would be one of the greatest 4th innings of all time and this SA team don't have a good enough batting line-up to do that.
Surely not as tough as staying in for 130 overs? We should have been having a go before tea then another straight after. Effectively two new attacks at the openers.
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Maybe Root has arthritis and can't do the declaration signal? That's the only reason to still be batting.
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I think they've decided to bat until tea now. I'm not that upset, I think staying in for 120+ overs on this pitch will be tough. The target is, in my opinion, already too big to be chased down, it would be one of the greatest 4th innings of all time and this SA team don't have a good enough batting line-up to do that.
Surely not as tough as staying in for 130 overs? We should have been having a go before tea then another straight after. Effectively two new attacks at the openers.
I agree and if we'd had a better test record in the last year I'd be with you but with this much time in the game and the forecasts on our side I don't think it's giving them a huge chance by batting out a little longer.
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Chipping away nicely here. Why do they get so tight on no-balls though!!
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Stokes is in the zone.
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Hopefully we'll make quick work of finishing the South Africans off today. I watched quite a bit of the test over the weekend and something struck me about Westley and Malan. It was highlighted that both players have pretty major deficiencies in their technique and this was pointed out in the analysis. Neither are young players, so surely it is a damning indictment of the county system that players can prosper at that level despite having such flaws. Surely by the time they reach international level, flaws such as Malan's backlift making him very susceptible to inswingers should have been ironed out or recognised as a reason not to be selected?
One of the main reasons identified by the SKY commentators was the weakness and lack of pace in bowling attacks in the County Championship. Maybe time for a rethink of the system?
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Hopefully we'll make quick work of finishing the South Africans off today. I watched quite a bit of the test over the weekend and something struck me about Westley and Malan. It was highlighted that both players have pretty major deficiencies in their technique and this was pointed out in the analysis. Neither are young players, so surely it is a damning indictment of the county system that players can prosper at that level despite having such flaws. Surely by the time they reach international level, flaws such as Malan's backlift making him very susceptible to inswingers should have been ironed out or recognised as a reason not to be selected?
One of the main reasons identified by the SKY commentators was the weakness and lack of pace in bowling attacks in the County Championship. Maybe time for a rethink of the system?
The gulf between the county game and test cricket is wider than ever. Some players like Cook and Root make the step up effortlessly whereas others struggle. I like the look of Westley, I think he has the makings of a solid test batsman. Malan is in the "also rans" for me. Too good for county cricket but not quite good enough for test cricket.
We've lost alot of experience from our batting over the last few seasons. Strauss, Trott, Bell, Pietersen etc and they've not been replaced. Arguably only Root is an improvement on what went before.
How would you improve the county game Tom?
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So close to a hat trick for Roland-Jones.
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Hopefully we'll make quick work of finishing the South Africans off today. I watched quite a bit of the test over the weekend and something struck me about Westley and Malan. It was highlighted that both players have pretty major deficiencies in their technique and this was pointed out in the analysis. Neither are young players, so surely it is a damning indictment of the county system that players can prosper at that level despite having such flaws. Surely by the time they reach international level, flaws such as Malan's backlift making him very susceptible to inswingers should have been ironed out or recognised as a reason not to be selected?
One of the main reasons identified by the SKY commentators was the weakness and lack of pace in bowling attacks in the County Championship. Maybe time for a rethink of the system?
The gulf between the county game and test cricket is wider than ever. Some players like Cook and Root make the step up effortlessly whereas others struggle. I like the look of Westley, I think he has the makings of a solid test batsman. Malan is in the "also rans" for me. Too good for county cricket but not quite good enough for test cricket.
We've lost alot of experience from our batting over the last few seasons. Strauss, Trott, Bell, Pietersen etc and they've not been replaced. Arguably only Root is an improvement on what went before.
How would you improve the county game Tom?
Some good points and to be fair we went through a run where a number players came in and immediately adapted to test cricket. Others were a bit younger and took some time, but Malan and Westley are hardly young and seem to have pretty obvious flaws.
I guess the question is around whether the current County Championship system is fit for purpose when it comes to producing players for international cricket. Maybe we keep the County Championship, but add a smaller competition as a tier above that involving some regional teams made up of the best county players. You could have six teams - North (Durham, Yorkshire, Lancashire), Central (Warwickshire, Worcestershire and Northants), East (Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, Leicestershire), South East (Essex, Middlesex, Surrey), South (Kent, Hampshire, Sussex) and West (Gloucestershire, Somerset, Glamorgan). In all honesty, the County Championship is not a prestige competition these days, so you could perhaps reduce the number of games there to fit the five extra games in.
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I don't think that the counties will vote for that kind of revolution. There was enough resistance from certain counties to the new T20 format so I can't see them going for a similar set up in red ball domestic cricket.
For me the game is poorer for the lack of established International cricketers playing for a county. At one time every county except Yorkshire had a couple of overseas test players. County players were testing themselves against quality players. Now the best players chase the T20 dollar all over the world.
I think that an enhanced Lions system would be a better choice. Invest in the coaching of the next generation and they should be better equipped to make the step up. The talent is there but we need to develop it better.
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Amount of kolpac players isn't going to help the development of any young players. Last couple of years Yorkshire used the hit and run to give young players some playing time but they seem to have abandoned that idea this season apart from the odd match. Heard Ashley Giles on TMS a while ago saying how the academy at Warwickshire wasn't producing players so they were having to scout for players from other counties who weren't getting a game in the first team.
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I don't think that the counties will vote for that kind of revolution. There was enough resistance from certain counties to the new T20 format so I can't see them going for a similar set up in red ball domestic cricket.
For me the game is poorer for the lack of established International cricketers playing for a county. At one time every county except Yorkshire had a couple of overseas test players. County players were testing themselves against quality players. Now the best players chase the T20 dollar all over the world.
I think that an enhanced Lions system would be a better choice. Invest in the coaching of the next generation and they should be better equipped to make the step up. The talent is there but we need to develop it better.
It wouldn't be like the T20 situation as the County Championship would still exist. All it would be doing is adding a layer on top of the existing structure.
Agree about the lack of internationals in the county system being a problem and I think part of that is probably down to the fragmented nature of the season and that most international players are now only really chasing the T20 big bucks.
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Great wind up of Geoffrey this morning by Aggers and Andrew Samson
https://twitter.com/bbctms/status/892006915064115201
Although listen to the full version if you can
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Mo with a hat trick to finish the game
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Mo with a hat trick to finish the game
Bloody marvellous!
No doubt he will be back to being 3rd choice spinner in the next test!
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Andrew Samson
AWSStats
South Africa's innings today was the first in Test cricket to include four 1st ball ducks
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That was a real team effort to win that test. There are several candidates for man of the match:
Cook's innings on day one when batting was difficult
Stokes' ton, an exhibition of calm and measured batting.
Roland-Jones 5-fer on debut
Moeen's hat trick.
It's a straight choice between Stokes and Roland-Jones for me.
Edit: Stokes gets it for his ton, three wickets and 3 good catches.
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(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/480/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2017/7/31/e3e6bf53-d499-4876-a927-39ec844eea0b.jpg)
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Mo with a hat trick to finish the game
First one ever in a test at the Oval.
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Mo with a hat trick to finish the game
First one ever in a test at the Oval.
only the third hat-trick to finish a test ever and the first for 115 years apparently.
I can't for the life of me work out why the 3rd had to be reviewed, it clearly pitched and hit in line and he was far enough back that you'd never have questioned that it was going on to hit. I can normally see why they're not sure but it looked clear in real time. If England didn't have a review left that would have been a travesty.
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Very close to two hat tricks in a match, never seen that before.
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Very close to two hat tricks in a match, never seen that before.
3 hat-trick deliveries in a single innings, that's probably a first at test level.
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A pretty good way for the 100th test at the Oval to end with a little piece of history.
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Great all round performance, now they need to back it up next game.
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Would be great if that win today had clinched the series.
Five tests against the Aussies is standard, that should never be tampered with. But against the other nations, three is quite enough.
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Amount of kolpac players isn't going to help the development of any young players. Last couple of years Yorkshire used the hit and run to give young players some playing time but they seem to have abandoned that idea this season apart from the odd match. Heard Ashley Giles on TMS a while ago saying how the academy at Warwickshire wasn't producing players so they were having to scout for players from other counties who weren't getting a game in the first team.
The son of a mate of mine had been playing as Wicket Keeper for one of the youth levels at Warwickshire. Scored runs for fun when given the chance. However, there sounded like there were a hell of a lot of politics going on and he ended up leaving to get game time despite looking like a star when he was played.
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Amount of kolpac players isn't going to help the development of any young players. Last couple of years Yorkshire used the hit and run to give young players some playing time but they seem to have abandoned that idea this season apart from the odd match. Heard Ashley Giles on TMS a while ago saying how the academy at Warwickshire wasn't producing players so they were having to scout for players from other counties who weren't getting a game in the first team.
The son of a mate of mine had been playing as Wicket Keeper for one of the youth levels at Warwickshire. Scored runs for fun when given the chance. However, there sounded like there were a hell of a lot of politics going on and he ended up leaving to get game time despite looking like a star when he was played.
They let Ali go in similar circumstances as well didn't they?
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Five tests against the Aussies is standard, that should never be tampered with. But against the other nations, three is quite enough.
Why?
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Very close to two hat tricks in a match, never seen that before.
3 hat-trick deliveries in a single innings, that's probably a first at test level.
Or very poor opposition on the day.
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Five tests against the Aussies is standard, that should never be tampered with. But against the other nations, three is quite enough.
Why?
Three tests will usually give you a better chance of winner takes all, so I'd prefer to see a result.
Onto the specifics of this series: As far as this England side is concerned, they are more than capable of losing the next test by an innings +
4 tests against South Africa is too much. And whoever signed off on five tests away to India needs shooting. A 2-0 or even a 3-0 defeat down there would be about par usually (which is why the 2012/13 result was so outstanding). But a 4-0 drubbing following on so soon from the Bangladesh series benefits no one except the BCCI.
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Any changes for the next test? The only real consideration for me would be Jennings dropping out for Stoneman, but the runs in the second innings might have earned Jennings a reprieve.
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Any changes for the next test? The only real consideration for me would be Jennings dropping out for Stoneman, but the runs in the second innings might have earned Jennings a reprieve.
I'd stick with Jennings for this test. See if a decent knock (albeit one he was a bit lucky in) and a very good team win has given him confidence.
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Any changes for the next test? The only real consideration for me would be Jennings dropping out for Stoneman, but the runs in the second innings might have earned Jennings a reprieve.
I'd stick with Jennings for this test. See if a decent knock (albeit one he was a bit lucky in) and a very good team win has given him confidence.
I agree, sometimes a lucky knock is what a player really needs to get them going.
Of the other newcomers in the top order I'd stick with Westley. He has a technical flaw where he doesn't bring the bat down straight to ones around 5th stump but you could see from the first innings to the 2nd that he'd attempted to address it. Having bad habits from the county game where bowlers aren't consistently good enough to exploit them is common, being able to see those habits and address them quickly and effectively is what makes a test player. I like him.
Malan is a bigger concern, I'd keep him in but he needs to either change his backlift to be a little wider to give himself room to come across his legs or he needs to open up his stance, neither of those are quick fixes.
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Any changes for the next test? The only real consideration for me would be Jennings dropping out for Stoneman, but the runs in the second innings might have earned Jennings a reprieve.
Unless the selectors take into account Jennings being dropped very early on.
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Any changes for the next test? The only real consideration for me would be Jennings dropping out for Stoneman, but the runs in the second innings might have earned Jennings a reprieve.
I'd stick with Jennings for this test. See if a decent knock (albeit one he was a bit lucky in) and a very good team win has given him confidence.
I'd go with that Risso. Nasser Hussain made the point the other day though that from the end of this series, any selection in the West Indies Series should be made with Australia in mind. He was saying that if it is felt that certain players are going to struggle on the pitches down there and against their attack, there is no real point in having them gaining false currency against a weak West Indies attack.
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Any changes for the next test? The only real consideration for me would be Jennings dropping out for Stoneman, but the runs in the second innings might have earned Jennings a reprieve.
I'd stick with Jennings for this test. See if a decent knock (albeit one he was a bit lucky in) and a very good team win has given him confidence.
I'd go with that Risso. Nasser Hussain made the point the other day though that from the end of this series, any selection in the West Indies Series should be made with Australia in mind. He was saying that if it is felt that certain players are going to struggle on the pitches down there and against their attack, there is no real point in having them gaining false currency against a weak West Indies attack.
I agree with Nasser, he talks a lot of sense.
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Five tests against the Aussies is standard, that should never be tampered with. But against the other nations, three is quite enough.
Why?
Three tests will usually give you a better chance of winner takes all, so I'd prefer to see a result.
Onto the specifics of this series: As far as this England side is concerned, they are more than capable of losing the next test by an innings +
4 tests against South Africa is too much. And whoever signed off on five tests away to India needs shooting. A 2-0 or even a 3-0 defeat down there would be about par usually (which is why the 2012/13 result was so outstanding). But a 4-0 drubbing following on so soon from the Bangladesh series benefits no one except the BCCI.
Hmmm yes but commercialism dictates. ECB make money out of "auctioning" Tests to Counties. Their budget is based on maximum number of Tests being "sold" every season. It's no longer about competition and as you rightly said it should be winner takes all. 5 Tests in India is all about TV money as nearly no one turns up to watch Test match cricket in India.
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I like five test series. Realistically, we are only going to be playing two tests in series against Ireland and Afghanistan so that opens up the possibility of playing five test series against whoever else is touring in that given summer, same as we always play two against Bangladesh and five against the Aussies. South Africa and India seem the most viable candidates. I'd reduce the Windies to a two test series. If they can't be arsed with test cricket, I don't see why we should be arsed with them.
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Philander and Morris are out for the Saffers so they're playing 7 batsmen.
Jimmy and Co will be licking their lips in anticipation!
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"...Anderson bowling from the Anderson End"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/40823606
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We won the toss and are batting.
That's a good toss to win. Going by some of the reports that I've read, the weather in Manchester has been poor for the last week or so and the pitch has been covered. It will probably be a little under prepared so batting 4th on the pitch will be difficult.
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That was a good first over from Morkel. Thakfully he was bowling to Cook because I don't think Jennings would have survived it!
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Jennings could have been out. Great effort by Rabada but he couldn't hang on to the C&B
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We won the toss and are batting.
That's a good toss to win. Going by some of the reports that I've read, the weather in Manchester has been poor for the last week or so and the pitch has been covered. It will probably be a little under prepared so batting 4th on the pitch will be difficult.
Yep. If we can get a good first innings score here, the South Africans will really be under pressure.
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Once again Jennings fails. He really doen't do himself any favours! There just didn't seem to be any conviction in that shot, he was half forward and suffered as a result.
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Jennings aside, a pretty decent start.
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TMS 60th Anniversary Game draft about to start
EDIT: Geoffrey is already moaning
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Bidding war over Daggers
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"the rhubarb is never-ending" - Alison Mitchell
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Once again Jennings fails. He really doen't do himself any favours! There just didn't seem to be any conviction in that shot, he was half forward and suffered as a result.
Just had a look at his dismissal on the BBC website. Almost a carbon copy of a number of dismissals in the series and points at a serious technical flaw.
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Awful shot from Malan given the time. It's fairly clear that he likes playing his shots to deliveries out there but you ignore those when it's an over or 2 until a break.
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We need to put some runs on the board this afternoon if the conditions stay like they are, it's very possible it'll be the best batting session in the match. If this pair can get at them a little and get a partnership going I think we should be able to able to push for 350ish on this and I think that's a decent total. Monday and Tuesday look pretty ropey on the forecast so it's probably going to just be a draw but if we want to try to win it we need to score quick and then skittle them cheaply.
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We need to put some runs on the board this afternoon if the conditions stay like they are, it's very possible it'll be the best batting session in the match. If this pair can get at them a little and get a partnership going I think we should be able to able to push for 350ish on this and I think that's a decent total. Monday and Tuesday look pretty ropey on the forecast so it's probably going to just be a draw but if we want to try to win it we need to score quick and then skittle them cheaply.
Down to Root and Stokes again really. Probably need one of these two to go big with contributions from Bairstow and Ali.
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Decent battling effort if we can get 350 ish I think we're in front.
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Frustrating day with all the batsmen getting starts but not converting. Conditions weren't easy in fairness.
I cannot fathom the use of the nightwatchman today. He didn't face a ball
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Early wicket down for England, could do with them getting to about 350.
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Ali out now for 14. 303-8
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What a shame for Bairstow. Great knock though and has put us in a strong position.
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That little spell from Bairstow is just about the first time the batters looked truly on top in the contest so far - and Maharaj was still able to provide the aggravation factor right at the death.
The SA bowling attack has looked good even minus Philander, but England have to be in the box seat with 360+ runs on this wicket.
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Marvellous innings by Bairstow, what a player! Jimmy has struck in the first over too.
I must admit that Bairstow was unlucky and the victim of technology. He got a huge stride in so there's no way he should have been given out. Pre-technology he'd have been given not out.
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Didn't see his innings but love Bairstow, easily my favourite cricketer. He's a lovely fella too.
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Didn't see his innings but love Bairstow, easily my favourite cricketer. He's a lovely fella too.
You wouldn't have enjoyed it Chris. Too many 4's and even a 6. Not Test match Cricket at all.
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Didn't see his innings but love Bairstow, easily my favourite cricketer. He's a lovely fella too.
You wouldn't have enjoyed it Chris. Too many 4's and even a 6. Not Test match Cricket at all.
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Didn't see his innings but love Bairstow, easily my favourite cricketer. He's a lovely fella too.
Was discussed earlier Chris, but there is going to be an ongoing debate about where he should bat for England. I think the headache is going to come when Woakes comes back and everyone is fully fit. A 6,7,8,9 of Stokes, Bairstow, Ali and Woakes looks a very strong unit, but it would mean that only two out of Wood, Roland-Jines, Broad and Anderson could be picked. We are still going to need a five after this series, so moving Bairstow up to there and moving Ali and Woakes to 7 and 8 could be an option, but will we really need 5 seamers?
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Didn't see his innings but love Bairstow, easily my favourite cricketer. He's a lovely fella too.
Was discussed earlier Chris, but there is going to be an ongoing debate about where he should bat for England. I think the headache is going to come when Woakes comes back and everyone is fully fit. A 6,7,8,9 of Stokes, Bairstow, Ali and Woakes looks a very strong unit, but it would mean that only two out of Wood, Roland-Jines, Broad and Anderson could be picked. We are still going to need a five after this series, so moving Bairstow up to there and moving Ali and Woakes to 7 and 8 could be an option, but will we really need 5 seamers?
Exactly, adding a 6th bowler isn't needed because it just means 1-2 get massively under-bowled.
I'd leave that lot where they are, Roland-Jones is competition/backup for the all rounders and Wood is backup for Jimmy and Broad.
As it stands for me I'd be looking at this for the windies series:
Cook
?
Westley?
Root
?
Stokes
Bairstow
Ali
Woakes
Broad
Anderson
I'm not fully convinced by Westley but I think he's worth keeping in, Jennings and Malan are concerns, we shouldn't be messing with the bottom 6 right now.
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I can see Broad and Anderson getting one test off each in the Windies series. Not just to give them a break but also to give TRJ some more games.
Is there anyone with express pace in the county game that could be looked at with a view to taking them to Aus ?
Mills would be great but unfortunately that's not going to be possible.
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Meanwhile, SA could be bowling themselves back into the game.
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I can see Broad and Anderson getting one test off each in the Windies series. Not just to give them a break but also to give TRJ some more games.
Is there anyone with express pace in the county game that could be looked at with a view to taking them to Aus ?
Mills would be great but unfortunately that's not going to be possible.
Resting one (or both) is fine but they're still the first choices at 10 and 11.
There's no one frighteningly quick coming through because the youngsters with the potential to bowl at 90+ are all trained to swing the ball rather than working on their pace, because swing bowling is so effective in England. Mills is an anomaly because he wanted to bowl quick and only ever wanted to work on his pace. The chances of someone coming through the county system ready to bowl at 90mph with any consistency are, in my opinion, almost nil and only a change to the structure will do anything to address that. How many genuine quicks have we had in the last 30 years?
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Meanwhile, SA could be bowling themselves back into the game.
I doubt it, another 60-70 (lead of 250-260) and we're favourites, once the lead gets to 300 it's pretty much game over.
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Jennings and Malan gone cheaply again. The pitch doesn't look great for the left handers though, seems to have cut up pretty badly.
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Jennings shot was terrible.
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I know Jennings is out of nick, but his passivity and lack of movement is infuriating. Reminds me of Chris Tavare, only not as effective.
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Does anyone else think that Duane Olivier looks a bit like Luis Suarez?
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Lead up to 270 and I think that's already a hard chase, the pitch is horrible to score off and there's enough inconsistency that there's always the chance for one to deviate off the pitch. Ball is definitely on top.
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We would have to bowl exceptionally poorly for SA to even get close to what the lead is at the moment.
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Would still want the score up to around 320, for scoreboard pressure as much as anything else.
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remember the 4th innings average here is one of the lowest around (it's about 160-170) because there's usually a lot going on. SA will already be looking at the scoreboard with some concern, add another 30-40 and I genuinely think they'll shift to looking at the weather reports instead and hoping they can just last it out.
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Jennings and Malan gone cheaply again. The pitch doesn't look great for the left handers though, seems to have cut up pretty badly.
Mo seems to be enjoying it tho :-)
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Mo is such an important player for us.
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Manchester sunshine strikes again!
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Jennings and Malan gone cheaply again. The pitch doesn't look great for the left handers though, seems to have cut up pretty badly.
Mo seems to be enjoying it tho :-)
He just played it like a t20, he knew we had enough on the board to be on top and decided he might as well have a swing. As Holding said earlier if the ball is playing up off the pitch you just don't let it bounce, you might not stick around for long but a better than a run a ball 60-70 is far more useful for everyone than a hard fought 23. Root and Stokes earned him the chance to do it by grafting through to a lead we'd have been happy to defend and he's made the most of it.
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Mo is such an important player for us.
This test has again shown the advantage of having Bairstow and him at 7 and 8 respectively. Both could bat higher, but just when the opposition think they have a glimmer of hope, those two have come in and put us back in control.
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I must confess I have always had doubts about Moeen making it at highest level however these are some interesting snippets from BBC:
*Moeen Ali is only the second England Test player to score more than 200 runs and take 20 wickets in a four-match series
*Sir Ian Botham was the only other player to achieve that feat - against India in 1979
The last England player to score more than 200 runs and take 20 wickets in a series was Andrew *Flintoff in the 2005 Ashes (over five Tests)
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I must confess I have always had doubts about Moeen making it at highest level however these are some interesting snippets from BBC:
*Moeen Ali is only the second England Test player to score more than 200 runs and take 20 wickets in a four-match series
*Sir Ian Botham was the only other player to achieve that feat - against India in 1979
The last England player to score more than 200 runs and take 20 wickets in a series was Andrew *Flintoff in the 2005 Ashes (over five Tests)
I think he's a cracking player. His only downside at least in terms of batting is his ability to get out due to poor shot selection but that's a result of his attacking instincts I guess.
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Mo is such an important player for us.
This test has again shown the advantage of having Bairstow and him at 7 and 8 respectively. Both could bat higher, but just when the opposition think they have a glimmer of hope, those two have come in and put us back in control.
Indeed. It's just a shame that it seems that we always need them to bail the team out recently, rather that coming in with the score at 400 and quickly batting the opposition out of contention.
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Broad has gone early for 5. Bowled by Morkel.
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England all out for 243, a healthy lead of 379. Moeen 75 not out.
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Mo is such an important player for us.
This test has again shown the advantage of having Bairstow and him at 7 and 8 respectively. Both could bat higher, but just when the opposition think they have a glimmer of hope, those two have come in and put us back in control.
Indeed. It's just a shame that it seems that we always need them to bail the team out recently, rather that coming in with the score at 400 and quickly batting the opposition out of contention.
They have both played some very important knocks over the past few years batting lower down the order. I saw something over the weekend that Ali averages nearly 70 batting at number 8. One of the negatives though is you run the risk of them being left stranded by the tail, like Ali was today.
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Graeme Swann has just said on TMS:
"If you took a Jonathan Trott from five years ago and put him in now, this England team would be unbelievable".
Agree with him, but I think you would also have to add a peak form Strauss and Bell at opener and five respectively to reach the kind of levels he is talking about. 6-11 is probably as good as we have been for some time.
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Interesting discussion during the rain delay regarding playing Hales at five
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Interesting discussion during the rain delay regarding playing Hales at five
A role he's currently playing for Notts, and scoring 74 not out at a run a ball.
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The South African batting line up is weak. As a bowling unit they are amongst the best in the world in most conditions but their exisiting batting line up is fragile at best.
18-2, Jimmy gets Kuhn.
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Kuhn is a walking wicket. I reckon I'd get him out before long.
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Interesting discussion during the rain delay regarding playing Hales at five
The void at five has come as a result of James Taylor's terrible misfortune. He was beginning to establish himself in that position.
I don't think Malan is the answer going forward.
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Interesting discussion during the rain delay regarding playing Hales at five
The void at five has come as a result of James Taylor's terrible misfortune. He was beginning to establish himself in that position.
I don't think Malan is the answer going forward.
The continual chopping and changing of personnel is a worry. Jennings isn't good enough, Westley needs a score to cement his place and as you say Malan is not the answer.
Stoneman is the lastest to be touted for a place and I can see a recall for Ballance to bat at five. Root clearly rates him which is hardly surprising given that they came through the ranks at Yorkshire together. However Ballance still hasn't ironed out his technical flaws and as a result he's a wicket waiting to happen.
Selection for the series against the West Indies will be made with one eye on the Ashes so it's to be hoped that Hameed comes good again because otherwise we will go into the Ashes with an unsettled opening pair.
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Interesting discussion during the rain delay regarding playing Hales at five
The void at five has come as a result of James Taylor's terrible misfortune. He was beginning to establish himself in that position.
I don't think Malan is the answer going forward.
The continual chopping and changing of personnel is a worry. Jennings isn't good enough, Westley needs a score to cement his place and as you say Malan is not the answer.
Stoneman is the lastest to be touted for a place and I can see a recall for Ballance to bat at five. Root clearly rates him which is hardly surprising given that they came through the ranks at Yorkshire together. However Ballance still hasn't ironed out his technical flaws and as a result he's a wicket waiting to happen.
Selection for the series against the West Indies will be made with one eye on the Ashes so it's to be hoped that Hameed comes good again because otherwise we will go into the Ashes with an unsettled opening pair.
Hameed is a poor player. He rode the crest of a wave in India after 1 good season. Now he has been found out even at County level and is an opener who just goes into 'survival mode' rather than ever looking to score any runs.
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Interesting discussion during the rain delay regarding playing Hales at five
The void at five has come as a result of James Taylor's terrible misfortune. He was beginning to establish himself in that position.
I don't think Malan is the answer going forward.
The continual chopping and changing of personnel is a worry. Jennings isn't good enough, Westley needs a score to cement his place and as you say Malan is not the answer.
Stoneman is the lastest to be touted for a place and I can see a recall for Ballance to bat at five. Root clearly rates him which is hardly surprising given that they came through the ranks at Yorkshire together. However Ballance still hasn't ironed out his technical flaws and as a result he's a wicket waiting to happen.
Selection for the series against the West Indies will be made with one eye on the Ashes so it's to be hoped that Hameed comes good again because otherwise we will go into the Ashes with an unsettled opening pair.
Hameed is a poor player. He rode the crest of a wave in India after 1 good season. Now he has been found out even at County level and is an opener who just goes into 'survival mode' rather than ever looking to score any runs.
I think with the right coaching and guidance he could develop into a decent opener. We've lacked a batsman with "stickability" since Trott's retirement. Sometimes test batting is about occupying the crease and our batsmen don't stick around long enough.
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Bit quick to write Hameed off so soon, unlessyoure a Lancashire member I doubt you've seen much of him, how do you come to the conclusion he's a poor player?
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Bit quick to write Hameed off so soon, unlessyoure a Lancashire member I doubt you've seen much of him, how do you come to the conclusion he's a poor player?
Yeah that does seem a bit harsh. After all he might just be going through the kind of slump many young sports men and women do early in their careers.
My concern is that the two test series have come the wrong way around this summer really. We could have done with facing the West Indies first, allowing new players to settle in a bit and then gone into the sterner test against the South African attack. As it is, we might be blooding new players against a weaker attack which won't really give us any clues about whether they will be able to step up against the Australians.
As it is, I think Westley has done enough to keep his place against the West Indies, but Jennings and Malan need to come out. Stoneman has to be given a chance at opener in the first test against the West Indies, but I'm not sure who is picked at five.
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This stand between Amla and du Plessis is now irritating. We need to regroup at tea and come hard at them in the evening session.
Edit! Super Moeen Ali gets Amla lbw. That's a huge wicket.
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Moeen is a very strange bowler isn't he? He can trundle along not looking particularly threatening for a while, then all of a sudden it's like he's going through batsmen like Trump goes through spokesmen.
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Player of the series is likely to be England's number eight batsman / second spinner
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Earlier on TMS.......
"He's itching de Kock" - Graeme Smith
Which was followed up by "de Kock's itching"
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25 wickets in a series for Moeen Ali is a fantastic performance. Such an important member of the side now.
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Good win and a good series win. Answered a few questions regarding how the team should look going forward.
First time we've beaten them at hime in a series since 1998, so not to be sniffed at.
As for South Africa, I think they are fine in the bowling department even without Dale Steyn. Some of their batsmen struggled in the conditions up here, by put I think there have been positives with Bavuma and Elgar's hundred.
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Bit quick to write Hameed off so soon, unlessyoure a Lancashire member I doubt you've seen much of him, how do you come to the conclusion he's a poor player?
Indeed.
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Ali has been tremendous.
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Shocked at how empty Old Trafford was. I know it's a work day and England were in a very strong position but it was barely half full.
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I think Woakes will come in at some point v West Indies even if to give Anderson a rest. Need to try out Rashid again or blood a new spinner too. Ditch Jennings and Malan, not sure about Westley yet.
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Ali has been tremendous.
Leading wicket taker, 250-odd runs. TMS were on about him doing something that the four mighty all-rounders of the eighties hadn't managed, but owing to work interfering with my day, I didn't quite catch what they said. Was it 25 wickets and 250 runs in a series?
Bloke's feckin ace.
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Probably no harm in alternating Broard and Anderson against the Windies. How far away has Steven Finn's game fallen? He has always been an enigma, but the pace and bounce he can extract means he would be a contender for Australia under normal circumstances, even if he is only 70/80% firing.
Jennings' form is a concern, but if he can't keep the scoreboard moving on, the next best thing is to stay in and occupy the crease. Take the shine off the new ball and avoid no 3 and especially Root coming in before the 10th over, which seemed to be happening way too often in the winter.
To kick on, he'll need scores. But I'd give him at least the first Windies test.
All the thinking is understandably geared to Nov 23 in Brisbane; and ideally you want as close to a settled XI as you can get by then. But England and Australia are two flawed sides. Some of their batsmen seem happier in one day mode too. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that England could get something in the first test even with a top order nowhere near as competent as the one in 2010/11.
If changes have to be made again after Adelaide or Perth, so be it. Cast your mind back to Trott's debut at Lords for the 5th test in 2009. Far from ideal if you have to chop and change key positions mid series, but a player who has the mettle to come in and make an impact in high stakes cricket of that nature can set himself up for a notable career.
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Probably no harm in alternating Board and Anderson against the Windies. How far away has Steven Finn's game fallen? He has always been an enigma, but the pace and bounce he can extract means he would be a contender for Australia under normal circumstances, even if he is only 70/80% firing.
Jennings' form is a concern, but if he can't keep the scoreboard moving on, the next best thing is to stay in and occupy the crease. Take the shine off the new ball and avoid no 3 and especially Root coming in before the 10th over, which seemed to be happening way too often in the winter.
To kick on, he'll need scores. But I'd give him at least the first Windies test.
All the thinking is understandably geared to Nov 23 in Brisbane; and ideally you want as close to a settled XI as you can get by then. But England and Australia are two flawed sides. Some of their batsmen seem happier in one day mode too. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that England could get something in the first test even with a top order nowhere near as competent as the one in 2010/11.
If changes have to be made again after Adelaide or Perth, so be it. Cast your mind back to Trott's debut at Lords for the 5th test in 2009. Far from ideal if you have to chop and change key positions mid series, but a player who has the mettle to come in and make an impact in high stakes cricket of that nature can set himself up for a notable career.
Bumble was advocating the team staying exactly the same for the first test against the West Indies, but I'm not so sure. Is getting runs against inferior opposition simply going to cover up failings that will brutally exposed again down under.
The quick turnaround may well mean we stay the same for Edgbaston, as integrating new players might take a bit longer.
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Probably no harm in alternating Broard and Anderson against the Windies. How far away has Steven Finn's game fallen? He has always been an enigma, but the pace and bounce he can extract means he would be a contender for Australia under normal circumstances, even if he is only 70/80% firing.
Jennings' form is a concern, but if he can't keep the scoreboard moving on, the next best thing is to stay in and occupy the crease. Take the shine off the new ball and avoid no 3 and especially Root coming in before the 10th over, which seemed to be happening way too often in the winter.
To kick on, he'll need scores. But I'd give him at least the first Windies test.
All the thinking is understandably geared to Nov 23 in Brisbane; and ideally you want as close to a settled XI as you can get by then. But England and Australia are two flawed sides. Some of their batsmen seem happier in one day mode too. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that England could get something in the first test even with a top order nowhere near as competent as the one in 2010/11.
If changes have to be made again after Adelaide or Perth, so be it. Cast your mind back to Trott's debut at Lords for the 5th test in 2009. Far from ideal if you have to chop and change key positions mid series, but a player who has the mettle to come in and make an impact in high stakes cricket of that nature can set himself up for a notable career.
If we throw out the pitches we've had for the past few years, I don't think batting will be an issue for either side - the fact that you lot bat deep should be more than enough to make up for the shakiness of the specialist batsmen. Think the key will be whether the pace attack can be sufficiently threatening for long enough - I know Moeen's improved and all recently, but given that the likes of Yasir and Ashwin have copped hammerings down here, have to be realistic about what he can manage.
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Bit quick to write Hameed off so soon, unlessyoure a Lancashire member I doubt you've seen much of him, how do you come to the conclusion he's a poor player?
During 2017 his highlights total one hideously scratchy 50, where he scored at a third of the rate of his opening partner, and another 15 innings where he has not got past 50, as well as struggling for any kind of fluency whenever he bats.
Admittedly I haven't seen lots of him, but then neither have the people who think he is the next messiah and expect him to be able to deal with the likes of Cummins, Hazlewood and Starc bowling 90MPH+.
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Alex Hales seems to be in the form of his life at the moment, yesterday he scored a run a ball 218 for Notts against Derbyshire. Now admittedly that is in Division two but it's still a remarkable innings.
He was tried at test level last year and had a good run in the side. He passed 80 on three occasions but didn't go on to convert them into centuries. Maybe his decision not to tour Banglasdesh is being held against him but given the dearth of batting options I'd give him another chance.
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Alex Hales seems to be in the form of his life at the moment, yesterday he scored a run a ball 218 for Notts against Derbyshire. Now admittedly that is in Division two but it's still a remarkable innings.
He was tried at test level last year and had a good run in the side. He passed 80 on three occasions but didn't go on to convert them into centuries. Maybe his decision not to tour Banglasdesh is being held against him but given the dearth of batting options I'd give him another chance.
It's very tempting to consider Hales at no.5 for England, as his recent scores are hard to ignore.
My concern is that his big 3 recent scores have either been in one-day competitions, or his First Class knock against weak bowling (Derbyshire at the bottom end of Div. 2). Now you can only score runs against what's served up in front of you, but it's whether he'll be capable of scoring against the genuine quicks down under this winter.
He has to be under consideration though, I'd also look at Rory Burns at Surrey, can open or bat no.5. If we want a younger player, Duckett and Joe Clarke are the best 2 talents from what I've seen.
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Probably no harm in alternating Broard and Anderson against the Windies. How far away has Steven Finn's game fallen? He has always been an enigma, but the pace and bounce he can extract means he would be a contender for Australia under normal circumstances, even if he is only 70/80% firing.
Jennings' form is a concern, but if he can't keep the scoreboard moving on, the next best thing is to stay in and occupy the crease. Take the shine off the new ball and avoid no 3 and especially Root coming in before the 10th over, which seemed to be happening way too often in the winter.
To kick on, he'll need scores. But I'd give him at least the first Windies test.
All the thinking is understandably geared to Nov 23 in Brisbane; and ideally you want as close to a settled XI as you can get by then. But England and Australia are two flawed sides. Some of their batsmen seem happier in one day mode too. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that England could get something in the first test even with a top order nowhere near as competent as the one in 2010/11.
If changes have to be made again after Adelaide or Perth, so be it. Cast your mind back to Trott's debut at Lords for the 5th test in 2009. Far from ideal if you have to chop and change key positions mid series, but a player who has the mettle to come in and make an impact in high stakes cricket of that nature can set himself up for a notable career.
If we throw out the pitches we've had for the past few years, I don't think batting will be an issue for either side - the fact that you lot bat deep should be more than enough to make up for the shakiness of the specialist batsmen. Think the key will be whether the pace attack can be sufficiently threatening for long enough - I know Moeen's improved and all recently, but given that the likes of Yasir and Ashwin have copped hammerings down here, have to be realistic about what he can manage.
Not so sure about that, as we have shown on a number of occasions that we tend to just fold when we are really up against it. I think our bowling attack will be OK down under and I think it will suit the likes of Wood probably a bit more than conditions up here do. My one concern in the seam attack would be Jimmy Anderson, who tends to become a bit of a target if the ball is not swinging.
Nasser Hussain was talking about the challenges Moeen will face down there with the pitches and the different type of ball and I think the Aussies will try and target him in particular. Interesting to hear Shane Warne saying after the game yesterday that he would find a place in the side for a leg spinner and would go for either Rashid or Crane.
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Alex Hales seems to be in the form of his life at the moment, yesterday he scored a run a ball 218 for Notts against Derbyshire. Now admittedly that is in Division two but it's still a remarkable innings.
He was tried at test level last year and had a good run in the side. He passed 80 on three occasions but didn't go on to convert them into centuries. Maybe his decision not to tour Banglasdesh is being held against him but given the dearth of batting options I'd give him another chance.
It's very tempting to consider Hales at no.5 for England, as his recent scores are hard to ignore.
My concern is that his big 3 recent scores have either been in one-day competitions, or his First Class knock against weak bowling (Derbyshire at the bottom end of Div. 2). Now you can only score runs against what's served up in front of you, but it's whether he'll be capable of scoring against the genuine quicks down under this winter.
He has to be under consideration though, I'd also look at Rory Burns at Surrey, can open or bat no.5. If we want a younger player, Duckett and Joe Clarke are the best 2 talents from what I've seen.
I think Westley should be given an extended run as he has definitely shown enough in this series to suggest he is worth persevering with. Jennings and Malan should make way, with Stoneman being given a chance to open and then I think we could experiment at five.
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Alex Hales seems to be in the form of his life at the moment, yesterday he scored a run a ball 218 for Notts against Derbyshire. Now admittedly that is in Division two but it's still a remarkable innings.
He was tried at test level last year and had a good run in the side. He passed 80 on three occasions but didn't go on to convert them into centuries. Maybe his decision not to tour Banglasdesh is being held against him but given the dearth of batting options I'd give him another chance.
It's very tempting to consider Hales at no.5 for England, as his recent scores are hard to ignore.
My concern is that his big 3 recent scores have either been in one-day competitions, or his First Class knock against weak bowling (Derbyshire at the bottom end of Div. 2). Now you can only score runs against what's served up in front of you, but it's whether he'll be capable of scoring against the genuine quicks down under this winter.
He has to be under consideration though, I'd also look at Rory Burns at Surrey, can open or bat no.5. If we want a younger player, Duckett and Joe Clarke are the best 2 talents from what I've seen.
I think Westley should be given an extended run as he has definitely shown enough in this series to suggest he is worth persevering with. Jennings and Malan should make way, with Stoneman being given a chance to open and then I think we could experiment at five.
Stoneman is another one where the wealth of support he has is perplexing me a bit. He averages around 34 over a long First Class career, but just because he's moved to the fashionable county, Surrey, and had 1 good season he seems to be the name on everyone's lips. If I was picking one from there it would be Burns who is younger than Stoneman at 26/27, and averages 10 runs more than Stoneman and has a more solid technique.
I'd go:
Cook
Burns/Duckett
Westley
Root
Clarke/Hales
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Alex Hales seems to be in the form of his life at the moment, yesterday he scored a run a ball 218 for Notts against Derbyshire. Now admittedly that is in Division two but it's still a remarkable innings.
He was tried at test level last year and had a good run in the side. He passed 80 on three occasions but didn't go on to convert them into centuries. Maybe his decision not to tour Banglasdesh is being held against him but given the dearth of batting options I'd give him another chance.
It's very tempting to consider Hales at no.5 for England, as his recent scores are hard to ignore.
My concern is that his big 3 recent scores have either been in one-day competitions, or his First Class knock against weak bowling (Derbyshire at the bottom end of Div. 2). Now you can only score runs against what's served up in front of you, but it's whether he'll be capable of scoring against the genuine quicks down under this winter.
He has to be under consideration though, I'd also look at Rory Burns at Surrey, can open or bat no.5. If we want a younger player, Duckett and Joe Clarke are the best 2 talents from what I've seen.
I think Westley should be given an extended run as he has definitely shown enough in this series to suggest he is worth persevering with. Jennings and Malan should make way, with Stoneman being given a chance to open and then I think we could experiment at five.
Stoneman is another one where the wealth of support he has is perplexing me a bit. He averages around 34 over a long First Class career, but just because he's moved to the fashionable county, Surrey, and had 1 good season he seems to be the name on everyone's lips. If I was picking one from there it would be Burns who is younger than Stoneman at 26/27, and averages 10 runs more than Stoneman and has a more solid technique.
I'd go:
Cook
Burns/Duckett
Westley
Root
Clarke/Hales
There were calls for Stoneman to play when he was up at Durham, so it's not just since he has been at Surrey (though I do accept the calls have probably got louder since he moved to The Oval!!). I just think he has got to be given a chance or it undermines the whole county system a bit. Not good enough then fine, we move on.
The other train of thought would be to go with two young players in those positions and just give them time to bed in.
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Stoneman has been ignored by a number of selectors over the years and is 30 years old. There is something that is seen and not liked by quite a few respected individuals.
I would guess they will revert to Hameed if Jennings is going to be stood down against the Windies. Hameed is the future and a natural replacement for Cook long term. He did little wrong in Bangladesh or India.
As to a "five". We seem to have a lot of Key/Hick cricketers currently, too good for county cricket but not quite test class,technically flawed at the highest level, found out by decent attecks. Of those I'd prefer the quick scoring Hales in full flow to that of Ballance, Jennings or someone else.
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Alex Hales seems to be in the form of his life at the moment, yesterday he scored a run a ball 218 for Notts against Derbyshire. Now admittedly that is in Division two but it's still a remarkable innings.
He was tried at test level last year and had a good run in the side. He passed 80 on three occasions but didn't go on to convert them into centuries. Maybe his decision not to tour Banglasdesh is being held against him but given the dearth of batting options I'd give him another chance.
It's very tempting to consider Hales at no.5 for England, as his recent scores are hard to ignore.
My concern is that his big 3 recent scores have either been in one-day competitions, or his First Class knock against weak bowling (Derbyshire at the bottom end of Div. 2). Now you can only score runs against what's served up in front of you, but it's whether he'll be capable of scoring against the genuine quicks down under this winter.
He has to be under consideration though, I'd also look at Rory Burns at Surrey, can open or bat no.5. If we want a younger player, Duckett and Joe Clarke are the best 2 talents from what I've seen.
I think Westley should be given an extended run as he has definitely shown enough in this series to suggest he is worth persevering with. Jennings and Malan should make way, with Stoneman being given a chance to open and then I think we could experiment at five.
Stoneman is another one where the wealth of support he has is perplexing me a bit. He averages around 34 over a long First Class career, but just because he's moved to the fashionable county, Surrey, and had 1 good season he seems to be the name on everyone's lips. If I was picking one from there it would be Burns who is younger than Stoneman at 26/27, and averages 10 runs more than Stoneman and has a more solid technique.
I'd go:
Cook
Burns/Duckett
Westley
Root
Clarke/Hales
That's a very inexperienced line up with the first Ashes test just over three months away. Trouble is that we don't really have many other options.
It places a lot of pressure on Cook and Root and as always the Aussies will target them, particularly Root as the captain. If one or both of them fail then the pressure of the rest of the top five will be immense. We can't keep relying on Bairstow, Stokes and Ali to bail us out, numbers two, three and five must start contributing.
I'd go with this line up:
Cook
Hameed
Westley
Root
Hales
I'd make a statement and give them the change to cement a place in the Ashes side. If that doesn't work then I worry that the Aussies will punish us.
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I'd go with Hales at 5 too.
Hales
Stokes
Bairstow
Moeen
The alternative is to push everybody up and bring Woakes in.
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Stoneman is another one where the wealth of support he has is perplexing me a bit. He averages around 34 over a long First Class career, but just because he's moved to the fashionable county, Surrey, and had 1 good season he seems to be the name on everyone's lips. If I was picking one from there it would be Burns who is younger than Stoneman at 26/27, and averages 10 runs more than Stoneman and has a more solid technique.
I'd go:
Cook
Burns/Duckett
Westley
Root
Clarke/Hales
That's a very inexperienced line up with the first Ashes test just over three months away. Trouble is that we don't really have many other options.
It places a lot of pressure on Cook and Root and as always the Aussies will target them, particularly Root as the captain. If one or both of them fail then the pressure of the rest of the top five will be immense. We can't keep relying on Bairstow, Stokes and Ali to bail us out, numbers two, three and five must start contributing.
I'd go with this line up:
Cook
Hameed
Westley
Root
Hales
I'd make a statement and give them the change to cement a place in the Ashes side. If that doesn't work then I worry that the Aussies will punish us.
It is far from ideal having 3 unproven bats in the first 5 for an Ashes, but other than Ballance or Jennings there aren't a lot of options, as you say.
Of the positions I put 2 possibilities for, if they went for Duckett and Hales, it's actually got more Test Match experience than the team you've gone for, just!
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Stoneman has been ignored by a number of selectors over the years and is 30 years old. There is something that is seen and not liked by quite a few respected individuals.
I would guess they will revert to Hameed if Jennings is going to be stood down against the Windies. Hameed is the future and a natural replacement for Cook long term. He did little wrong in Bangladesh or India.
As to a "five". We seem to have a lot of Key/Hick cricketers currently, too good for county cricket but not quite test class,technically flawed at the highest level, found out by decent attecks. Of those I'd prefer the quick scoring Hales in full flow to that of Ballance, Jennings or someone else.
Fair enough about Stoneman, but there aren't really too many other options. Hameed has been in rotten form since the winter, but is getting some runs in the latest match so it might be worth a gamble against the Windies.
As for five, we also seem to have a group of players (Hales, Roy, Morgan, Buttler) who can take international attacks apart in white ball cricket but have struggled in the longer format when given the chance (can't recall Roy playing a test, but the other three have). I have got a feeling that we may see Ballance at five when he has recovered from injury though.
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Woakes would be nailed on for me for Australia.
New ball pairing picks itself barring injury or disaster.
But you need a workhorse who can get through a lot of overs down there with a decent economy rate. Woakes now has that bit of nip now too to make him more than a medium pace trundler. Stokes is a talent, but he needs to be wrapped in cotton wool. No question at all that he should be in the side, but killer long spells blunt his effectiveness and make him an injury doubt for later tests.
Moeen will obv be the nailed on spin option.
So you pick the rest of the side around that.
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Woakes would be nailed on for me for Australia.
New ball pairing picks itself barring injury or disaster.
But you need a workhorse who can get through a lot of overs down there with a decent economy rate. Woakes now has that bit of nip now too to make him more than a medium pace trundler. Stokes is a talent, but he needs to be wrapped in cotton wool. No question at all that he should be in the side, but killer long spells blunt his effectiveness and make him an injury doubt for later tests.
Moeen will obv be the nailed on spin option.
So you pick the rest of the side around that.
I think Mark Wood is the type of bowler you are talking about, but it depends on whether he is going to be fit or not. Interesting to hear Shane Warne's comments about selection last night. He's always had that positive approach to the game and his argument was that he would move Stokes or Bairstow to five, move Ali to seven, have Woakes at eight and the extra bowler at nine. His logic was that Stokes or Bairstow are probably going to be better than any of the other options for that position, so why not play them there.
I think we are a bit more of a cautious lot though and I have to admit that a 6,7,8, 9 of Stokes, Bairstow, Ali and Woakes looks rock solid to me and they all seem comfortable in those respective positions.
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Against the Windies, I'd go -
Cook
K-J
Westley
Root+
Bairstow*
Stokes
Ali
Woakes
R-J
Broad
Anderson
Hales and Malan make up the squad. Rashid if needed.
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I've just read your comments Tom, and it seems that I agree with Warne!
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Woakes would be nailed on for me for Australia.
New ball pairing picks itself barring injury or disaster.
But you need a workhorse who can get through a lot of overs down there with a decent economy rate. Woakes now has that bit of nip now too to make him more than a medium pace trundler. Stokes is a talent, but he needs to be wrapped in cotton wool. No question at all that he should be in the side, but killer long spells blunt his effectiveness and make him an injury doubt for later tests.
Moeen will obv be the nailed on spin option.
So you pick the rest of the side around that.
I think Mark Wood is the type of bowler you are talking about, but it depends on whether he is going to be fit or not. Interesting to hear Shane Warne's comments about selection last night. He's always had that positive approach to the game and his argument was that he would move Stokes or Bairstow to five, move Ali to seven, have Woakes at eight and the extra bowler at nine. His logic was that Stokes or Bairstow are probably going to be better than any of the other options for that position, so why not play them there.
I think we are a bit more of a cautious lot though and I have to admit that a 6,7,8, 9 of Stokes, Bairstow, Ali and Woakes looks rock solid to me and they all seem comfortable in those respective positions.
Wood is quicker than Stokes, obv. So is even more of an impact bowler. Neither can really fulfill the role Hoggard performed in 2006, or Bresnan in 2010.
Wood is a nice option to have, if he's in good nick and injury free, a really good option to have.
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Some interesting comments and stats in this article:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/40862946
Maybe Bayliss is too white ball centred?
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Some interesting comments and stats in this article:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/40862946
Maybe Bayliss is too white ball centred?
Some interesting thoughts. The top of the order has been an issue for sometime, with permanent replacements as of yet not being found for Strauss and Trott. There have been some pretty awful collapses in the last couple of years as well, which would suggest all is not well. That said, I still think 6-11 is as strong as it has been for some time and in Cook and Root, we have two world class top order batsmen.
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Some interesting comments and stats in this article:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/40862946
Maybe Bayliss is too white ball centred?
Some interesting thoughts. The top of the order has been an issue for sometime, with permanent replacements as of yet not being found for Strauss and Trott. There have been some pretty awful collapses in the last couple of years as well, which would suggest all is not well. That said, I still think 6-11 is as strong as it has been for some time and in Cook and Root, we have two world class top order batsmen.
Cook hasn't really been firing on all cylinders for a while. In his last 16 innings, there are no 100s and only 3 50s, for an average of 30.
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Stoneman and Crane in for Jennings and Dawson. Just watching Crane in a T20 and he looks a real prospect. Absolutely bamboozled Jacques Rudolph with a googly which bowled him.
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To get away from the current team for a moment, I came across this the other day:
It's obviously a bit dated and a few of the choices are a bit lopsided, but a few pundits had a go at it and pretty much got the same team. I thought I would address the balance a bit below and bring it up to date (had to add three options in some places - my choices are in bold):
Atherton / Strauss
Trescothick / Cook
Vaughan / Hussain / Trott
Pietersen / Root
Bell / Thorpe / Collingwood
Stewart / Prior
Flintoff / Stokes
Swann / Giles / Moeen
Gough / Simon Jones
Caddick / Harmison / Broad
Anderson / Hoggard
Some tough choices and I just couldn't decide between KP and Root.
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Root didn't make his debut until 2012 so wouldn't be eligible.
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When Bumble made his picks, Tresco over Chef was the right call. However, eight years on, Cook must be the choice.
I'd have Tresco at three
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Root didn't make his debut until 2012 so wouldn't be eligible.
My selections were from the noughties onwards. My earliest recollections of watching cricket are from about 1991 onwards and the only difference I'd make in my all time team since then from the one I chose a few posts back would be to put that era Gooch in instead of Atherton. It was some Indian summer Gooch had around that time.
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Atherton
Cook
Vaughan (c)
Pietersen
Bell
Stewart (w)
Flintoff
Swann
Jones
Harmison
Anderson
I like things like this, they always entirely subjective. For me, there are a few changes to make it my ideal line up.
I think that Cook edges Trescothick. Tresco was a great player but he never dominated attacks like Cook did his in prime. A player with as many test centuries as Cook has should always be in the side.
I did consider replacing Vaughan with Trott as the top three needs an anchor, an obdurate batsman who can hang around. However having a top three of Atherton, Cook and Trott would be too obdurate. Vaughan would also be my captain.
Pietersen edges Root based upon his star quality. Yes he was a twat but teams do need something special at number four. Root is a fabulous player and in a few years he will undoubtedly replace KP in a similar side but KP has won several Ashes series and that must count for something.
Bell replaces Thorpe based upon technical excellence, five Ashes series wins and over 7,000 test match runs. His performance in the 2013 home Ashes was phenomenal. For me Thorpe flattered to deceive too often and was rarely part of an England side with an ingrained winning habit.
I’d pick Simon Jones above Darren Gough. On his day, Jones was unplayable and a master of reverse swing. If he had stayed fit he would have easily reached number one in the world bowling rankings. Gough was good and had a heart like a lion but Jones possessed a bag of tricks with the ball to rival Warne.
The final consideration was between Harmison and Broad. Broad has produced some of the most destructive spells of bowling that I’ve seen from an England player. His 8-15 against the Aussies at Trent Bridge in 2015 will live long in the memory. I went for Harmison based upon his raw pace. Every side needs an express fast bowler and Harmison is that man.
It will be interesting to consider this again in five years when Moeen and Bairstow will come into the reckoning.
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Jones was pure class but unfortunately he didn't play enough to be ranked amongst those greats.
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Not convinced about the Stoneman selection, think he'll score some runs v Windies then flop v the Aussies. Although I do think he's a better choice than Hameed.
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Not convinced about the Stoneman selection, think he'll score some runs v Windies then flop v the Aussies. Although I do think he's a better choice than Hameed.
I think it is a pretty sound selection. They can have a look at Stoneman and Hameed gets a bit more time in County cricket to find some form. We're going to need to take three openers to Australia, so if Hameed's form picks up he will go, leaving a choice between Stoneman and Jennings for the other spot.
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Not convinced about the Stoneman selection, think he'll score some runs v Windies then flop v the Aussies. Although I do think he's a better choice than Hameed.
I think it is a pretty sound selection. They can have a look at Stoneman and Hameed gets a bit more time in County cricket to find some form. We're going to need to take three openers to Australia, so if Hameed's form picks up he will go, leaving a choice between Stoneman and Jennings for the other spot.
Why is it a sound selection, when Stoneman's opening partner at Surrey is younger, has scored more runs over the past couple of years and has a much better career average?
On Hameed, everyone is talking about 'form', but I think when his lack of runs have been over 3/4 of a season it is a bit of a stretch just to put it down to 'poor form'. The media and the player himself seem to be fooling everyone with that one.
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Not convinced about the Stoneman selection, think he'll score some runs v Windies then flop v the Aussies. Although I do think he's a better choice than Hameed.
I think it is a pretty sound selection. They can have a look at Stoneman and Hameed gets a bit more time in County cricket to find some form. We're going to need to take three openers to Australia, so if Hameed's form picks up he will go, leaving a choice between Stoneman and Jennings for the other spot.
Why is it a sound selection, when Stoneman's opening partner at Surrey is younger, has scored more runs over the past couple of years and has a much better career average?
On Hameed, everyone is talking about 'form', but I think when his lack of runs have been over 3/4 of a season it is a bit of a stretch just to put it down to 'poor form'. The media and the player himself seem to be fooling everyone with that one.
The first point is fair one, but I guess Stoneman is the name that has been pushed for some time (including Alec Stewart recently) so I guess he is seen as next cab off the rank.
As for the second point, 3/4 of a season accounts for what, 8 or 9 games? Not really a huge amount of games although I do admit it has been a disappointing summer for him so far. He looked very good last winter though and I suppose he showed enough talent then for people to want to persist with him.
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Not convinced about the Stoneman selection, think he'll score some runs v Windies then flop v the Aussies. Although I do think he's a better choice than Hameed.
I think it is a pretty sound selection. They can have a look at Stoneman and Hameed gets a bit more time in County cricket to find some form. We're going to need to take three openers to Australia, so if Hameed's form picks up he will go, leaving a choice between Stoneman and Jennings for the other spot.
Why is it a sound selection, when Stoneman's opening partner at Surrey is younger, has scored more runs over the past couple of years and has a much better career average?
On Hameed, everyone is talking about 'form', but I think when his lack of runs have been over 3/4 of a season it is a bit of a stretch just to put it down to 'poor form'. The media and the player himself seem to be fooling everyone with that one.
The first point is fair one, but I guess Stoneman is the name that has been pushed for some time (including Alec Stewart recently) so I guess he is seen as next cab off the rank.
As for the second point, 3/4 of a season accounts for what, 8 or 9 games? Not really a huge amount of games although I do admit it has been a disappointing summer for him so far. He looked very good last winter though and I suppose he showed enough talent then for people to want to persist with him.
I guess Burns will have to wait for one or two more failures to be considered for an opportunity.
Put another way, it is 16-18 innings. A lot less than England batsmen get given before they are written off as being not good enough. Whilst Hameed didn't do a bad job in India, the slow/low pitches meant I wasn't sold based on that alone, and in more testing swinging conditions back home he has been found out, as I believe he would be against genuine pace on bouncy, Australian tracks.
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Forty years ago today, the 100th Hundred
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Not convinced about the Stoneman selection, think he'll score some runs v Windies then flop v the Aussies. Although I do think he's a better choice than Hameed.
I think it is a pretty sound selection. They can have a look at Stoneman and Hameed gets a bit more time in County cricket to find some form. We're going to need to take three openers to Australia, so if Hameed's form picks up he will go, leaving a choice between Stoneman and Jennings for the other spot.
Why is it a sound selection, when Stoneman's opening partner at Surrey is younger, has scored more runs over the past couple of years and has a much better career average?
On Hameed, everyone is talking about 'form', but I think when his lack of runs have been over 3/4 of a season it is a bit of a stretch just to put it down to 'poor form'. The media and the player himself seem to be fooling everyone with that one.
The first point is fair one, but I guess Stoneman is the name that has been pushed for some time (including Alec Stewart recently) so I guess he is seen as next cab off the rank.
As for the second point, 3/4 of a season accounts for what, 8 or 9 games? Not really a huge amount of games although I do admit it has been a disappointing summer for him so far. He looked very good last winter though and I suppose he showed enough talent then for people to want to persist with him.
I guess Burns will have to wait for one or two more failures to be considered for an opportunity.
Put another way, it is 16-18 innings. A lot less than England batsmen get given before they are written off as being not good enough. Whilst Hameed didn't do a bad job in India, the slow/low pitches meant I wasn't sold based on that alone, and in more testing swinging conditions back home he has been found out, as I believe he would be against genuine pace on bouncy, Australian tracks.
I'm obviously not privy to selection discussions, but I've never really seen Burns linked or talked about in regards to national selection. It's getting pretty desperate though, so I wouldn't rule out anyone at this juncture.
I guess time will tell with Hameed.
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Forty years ago today, the 100th Hundred
Or if you believe Aggers on TMS it was number 99!
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Andrew Samson's acting was pretty good as well
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Is he still in?
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Is he still in?
Yes he's using a stick of rhubarb as a bat and wearing his mom's old pinny.
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I've always disliked Boycott although he's an excellent summariser but was really surprised when my brother was invited on to Test Match Special and he said how friendly and welcoming he was and keen to know more about the charity, unlike another former Yorkshire Test opener. A friend of my dad played for many years with Boycott at Yorkshire and has nothing but good to say about him. I'm warming to him.
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I guess Burns will have to wait for one or two more failures to be considered for an opportunity.
Put another way, it is 16-18 innings. A lot less than England batsmen get given before they are written off as being not good enough. Whilst Hameed didn't do a bad job in India, the slow/low pitches meant I wasn't sold based on that alone, and in more testing swinging conditions back home he has been found out, as I believe he would be against genuine pace on bouncy, Australian tracks.
I'm obviously not privy to selection discussions, but I've never really seen Burns linked or talked about in regards to national selection. It's getting pretty desperate though, so I wouldn't rule out anyone at this juncture.
I guess time will tell with Hameed.
It will. The frustration for me is most people assuming he's going to be great based on 3 pretty decent matches in India, but then a much bigger chunk of games (8-9 poor games this season as you alluded to above) isn't enough to judge him on.
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I guess Burns will have to wait for one or two more failures to be considered for an opportunity.
Put another way, it is 16-18 innings. A lot less than England batsmen get given before they are written off as being not good enough. Whilst Hameed didn't do a bad job in India, the slow/low pitches meant I wasn't sold based on that alone, and in more testing swinging conditions back home he has been found out, as I believe he would be against genuine pace on bouncy, Australian tracks.
I'm obviously not privy to selection discussions, but I've never really seen Burns linked or talked about in regards to national selection. It's getting pretty desperate though, so I wouldn't rule out anyone at this juncture.
I guess time will tell with Hameed.
It will. The frustration for me is most people assuming he's going to be great based on 3 pretty decent matches in India, but then a much bigger chunk of games (8-9 poor games this season as you alluded to above) isn't enough to judge him on.
I think most people think he's going to be great because last season he scored 1,198 Championship runs for Lancashire last season at an average of a squint under 50. Then looked pretty solid in the tests he played. Yes, he's faltered this season, but there's good grounds to think he'll be something fairly special.
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He's only a young lad, it's very unfair to write him off already because he's struggling with the second album.
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I guess Burns will have to wait for one or two more failures to be considered for an opportunity.
Put another way, it is 16-18 innings. A lot less than England batsmen get given before they are written off as being not good enough. Whilst Hameed didn't do a bad job in India, the slow/low pitches meant I wasn't sold based on that alone, and in more testing swinging conditions back home he has been found out, as I believe he would be against genuine pace on bouncy, Australian tracks.
I'm obviously not privy to selection discussions, but I've never really seen Burns linked or talked about in regards to national selection. It's getting pretty desperate though, so I wouldn't rule out anyone at this juncture.
I guess time will tell with Hameed.
It will. The frustration for me is most people assuming he's going to be great based on 3 pretty decent matches in India, but then a much bigger chunk of games (8-9 poor games this season as you alluded to above) isn't enough to judge him on.
I think most people think he's going to be great because last season he scored 1,198 Championship runs for Lancashire last season at an average of a squint under 50. Then looked pretty solid in the tests he played. Yes, he's faltered this season, but there's good grounds to think he'll be something fairly special.
and did it all as a teenager.
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Some interesting comments from Nick Compton:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/40923351
I thought he'd be bitter but he's written a balanced account of his experiences.
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Some interesting comments from Nick Compton:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/40923351
I thought he'd be bitter but he's written a balanced account of his experiences.
Yep, an interesting insight. Must not be an easy place to be, where you are trying so hard but nothing is going for you and all the time you are receiving a barrage of criticism in the press and every minute detail of your technique is being dissected. You can see that players who try and alter their technique during a series often make things worse for themselves and also interesting to note that some of the better test players in recent times (Graeme Smith, Chanderpaul and Steve Smith for example) have had pretty unique techniques that would not be in any coaching manual.
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Having a unique technique is fine if it's effective but if, like Ballance for example, you have a clear flaw that you're not addressing and it's seeing you underperform them you have to accept the criticism.
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Having a unique technique is fine if it's effective but if, like Ballance for example, you have a clear flaw that you're not addressing and it's seeing you underperform them you have to accept the criticism.
Agree Paul, but his technique must have been effective enough for him to get to test level in the first place and he had a good start to his test career. The constant picking apart of a player's technique and suggestions on how to improve it must mean that they are going to the crease with their mind all over the place.
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But if they are performing then their technique won't be picked apart. The thing is for the player to listen only to those coaches he trusts to put it right, there is no need for any player to take any heed whatsoever of the pundits and commentators, if he does and then loses confidence because of it then it's his own fault really.
As for the first point, you can get away with a flawed technique at County level, the best bowlers hardly play County cricket any more, it should be up to the coaches, including the England coaches if a player is on the radar, to pick up these flaws early so they are not bought into the Test arena when the time comes. There is enough technology about these days for every potential England players technique to be analysed before they get anywhere near the first XI.
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But if they are performing then their technique won't be picked apart. The thing is for the player to listen only to those coaches he trusts to put it right, there is no need for any player to take any heed whatsoever of the pundits and commentators, if he does and then loses confidence because of it then it's his own fault really.
As for the first point, you can get away with a flawed technique at County level, the best bowlers hardly play County cricket any more, it should be up to the coaches, including the England coaches if a player is on the radar, to pick up these flaws early so they are not bought into the Test arena when the time comes. There is enough technology about these days for every potential England players technique to be analysed before they get anywhere near the first XI.
First point - suppose so but Compton's piece gives an idea of how tough it must be when you are struggling at that level and how self doubt can begin to creep in.
Second point - that's a pretty damning assessment of County cricket then. Let's be honest, the County Championship lost it's prestige a while ago and now serves primarily as a breeding ground for Team England. If players are arriving at international level with major technical flaws that aren't being picked up at that level, then something is obviously wrong.
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But if they are performing then their technique won't be picked apart. The thing is for the player to listen only to those coaches he trusts to put it right, there is no need for any player to take any heed whatsoever of the pundits and commentators, if he does and then loses confidence because of it then it's his own fault really.
As for the first point, you can get away with a flawed technique at County level, the best bowlers hardly play County cricket any more, it should be up to the coaches, including the England coaches if a player is on the radar, to pick up these flaws early so they are not bought into the Test arena when the time comes. There is enough technology about these days for every potential England players technique to be analysed before they get anywhere near the first XI.
First point - suppose so but Compton's piece gives an idea of how tough it must be when you are struggling at that level and how self doubt can begin to creep in.
Second point - that's a pretty damning assessment of County cricket then. Let's be honest, the County Championship list it's prestige a while ago and now serves primarily as a breeding ground for Team England. If players are arriving at international level with major technical flaws that aren't being picked up at that level, then something is obviously wrong.
I think the last line there is fairly obviously true. Fixing it is a bigger issue and requires the ICC to grow some balls and start managing the sport properly.
- The T20 franchises need to be properly organised and the time they take up in the calendar needs to be reduced.
- International tours and competitions need to be centralised (to an extent) and altered to allow senior players to play at county (and equivalent level) and to avoid players picking between money in the t20s and caps.
- T20 (and 50over) fielding restrictions need to be reviewed to better balance things between bat and ball in those formats.
On top of that the ECB needs to do more with the lions to find u23 players who have a solid technique and the right mentality instead of calling in players like Malan and Stoneman. If someone in their late 20s (or 30s) is in good form then by all means give him a shot in the main squad but the lions needs to be a conveyer belt to bring players on and get them the extra coaching to make them ready.
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Second point - that's a pretty damning assessment of County cricket then. Let's be honest, the County Championship list it's prestige a while ago and now serves primarily as a breeding ground for Team England. If players are arriving at international level with major technical flaws that aren't being picked up at that level, then something is obviously wrong.
It is a damning assessment and is meant to be. If, as you say, the County Championship is meant to be a step on the way to International Cricket then the England coaches should be all over the most promising players and should be all over the coaching staff at the counties of those players. Players are still coming into the Test arena with basic flaws in technique that should have been picked up and ironed out when they first came onto the radar.
Test cricket is brutal and unfortunately County cricket, as it currently stands, is not a good place to prepare for it.
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Second point - that's a pretty damning assessment of County cricket then. Let's be honest, the County Championship list it's prestige a while ago and now serves primarily as a breeding ground for Team England. If players are arriving at international level with major technical flaws that aren't being picked up at that level, then something is obviously wrong.
It is a damning assessment and is meant to be. If, as you say, the County Championship is meant to be a step on the way to International Cricket then the England coaches should be all over the most promising players and should be all over the coaching staff at the counties of those players. Players are still coming into the Test arena with basic flaws in technique that should have been picked up and ironed out when they first came onto the radar.
Test cricket is brutal and unfortunately County cricket, as it currently stands, is not a good place to prepare for it.
I watch that 'Cricket Writers on TV' show and have heard it mentioned a few times that Bayliss spends a lot of his time back in Australia and has himself admitted that he doesn't watch much County cricket. That suggests to me that his role doesn't really involve selection and that is done by others.
On the subject of selection, the general feeling on the show on Sunday was that Woakes will come back in and that Mason Crane could play.
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Feels really weird waiting for the Test to kick off at 2. I like the idea though I hope the weather's warm for those of you going.
I've followed to a certain extent the story of the pink Duke ball, but am mightily puzzled as to why it should behave differently (e.g. go soft quicker, not take a shine) just because they dye it a different colour.
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I hope the idea spreads to Asian countries, it will make it a lot easier for us to watch matches held there.
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Feels really weird waiting for the Test to kick off at 2. I like the idea though I hope the weather's warm for those of you going.
I've followed to a certain extent the story of the pink Duke ball, but am mightily puzzled as to why it should behave differently (e.g. go soft quicker, not take a shine) just because they dye it a different colour.
It's because of the contents of the dye
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The old hippie that is Woofles probably wants the ball tie-dyed :)
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Went to Edgbaston earlier and have to say that the general feeling seemed to be that it was all a bit underwhelming. Yes it was a novelty and there was a bit of initial excitement and I know we've got some day/night games coming up over the winter, but it just felt like an unnecessary change to be honest. The game slowed right down when the lights came on and many people had left way before play finished at 9.30pm. As a spectator, I found it quite hard to pick the pink ball up at times, especially when it was moving along the ground.
As for the cricket itself, I thought the West Indies were desperately poor. Roach was quite lively, but the rest of their seamers and spinners were much of a muchness and all bowled loose balls on a regular basis. In terms of preventing runs, their fielding was actually OK, but some of the throws back to the wicketkeeper were extremely sloppy and to be honest they looked a beaten side quite early on. Cook and Root were imperious, but there is a big drop off in quality with the other three in the top five, even though Malan played pretty well when he settled a bit.
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443-3 against a bowling attack that looks toothless, now's probably the time to throw the bat at it. With rain coming later and plenty forecast for Sunday we need to get a score that gives us a clear shot at the follow-on but try to get a bit of time in the field today. A quick 100-150 from here would be brilliant.
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443-3 against a bowling attack that looks toothless, now's probably the time to throw the bat at it. With rain coming later and plenty forecast for Sunday we need to get a score that gives us a clear shot at the follow-on but try to get a bit of time in the field today. A quick 100-150 from here would be brilliant.
Well it's for 4 now, so hopefully Stokes will make your wish come true after 'lunch'.
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An indication of how interesting this Test is, I watched a T20 match in it's entirety last night instead of the Test.
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An indication of how interesting this Test is, I watched a T20 match in it's entirety last night instead of the Test.
Forget day/night cricket, this is a good advert for two division test cricket.
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An indication of how interesting this Test is, I watched a T20 match in it's entirety last night instead of the Test.
it's sad how poor WI are, no one in this team is fit to carry brinks for the teams from 20-40 years ago.
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443-3 against a bowling attack that looks toothless, now's probably the time to throw the bat at it. With rain coming later and plenty forecast for Sunday we need to get a score that gives us a clear shot at the follow-on but try to get a bit of time in the field today. A quick 100-150 from here would be brilliant.
Well it's for 4 now, so hopefully Stokes will make your wish come true after 'lunch'.
He tried, I hope they carry on with it, I suspect we'll be losing about 100 overs from this match if the weather reports are to be believed so given we've got enough to be 'safe' on the board already quick runs now is how we give ourselves a real chance to win it.
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Bairstow's no slouch when he wants to get on with it, so let's hope so. With a bit of rain in the air it might well be worth maximising the sessions we have to bowl at them as much as possible.
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I hope the idea spreads to Asian countries, it will make it a lot easier for us to watch matches held there.
Similarly they need morning cricket in Australia and New Zealand. Say start at 6 AM?
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An indication of how interesting this Test is, I watched a T20 match in it's entirety last night instead of the Test.
I have the day off, so this morning I watched the test highlights followed by the Yorkshire innings of the T20.
That was an incredible innings from Lyth
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England making a balls of getting up to 600 here.
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An indication of how interesting this Test is, I watched a T20 match in it's entirety last night instead of the Test.
I have the day off, so this morning I watched the test highlights followed by the Yorkshire innings of the T20.
That was an incredible innings from Lyth
He didn't offer any chances and wasn't really slogging either, was quite special!
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England making a balls of getting up to 600 here.
I would declare now.
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It was very very wet at the end!
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Usually like to see the follow-on enforced, but don't think there was any harm in giving the openers a run-out and try to play the debutant into a bit of form. Stick on another 100 or so and put them in under lights in the final session.
400/500 run deficit, what odds. Windies aren't going to get anywhere near that and there is still plenty of time left in the game.
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This is going to be all over tonight. Broad is ripping the Windies apart
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Sad to see how much of a mismatch this series is.
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Sad to see how much of a mismatch this series is.
Yep and it is hard to see where the West Indies are going to find anyone to offer any kind of resistance really.
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It's quite sad that the Windies can't offer us a game. I used to dream of a time when they would'nt Blackwash us.
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I think they are missing a few due to a pay dispute.
They'd still be shite though.
Would consider the day/night test a success despite the Windies' incompetence... the attendances were bigger than they would otherwise have been and they got a lot of first time attendees in the ground. Plus it's more convenient as you only need to book a half day off work.
Not sure when we will see it again. It's no good for Asian TV, so you can rule out matches against India and Pakistan. Australia and South Africa sell out anyway. Maybe matches against the likes of Bangladesh and Zimbabwe but these are hardly going to capture the public imagination.
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Had this text exchange last night with my mate and chairman of the the cricket club I used to play for...
"Just in case I forget nearer the time we are definitely NOT getting tickets for any edgbaston test next year or any other year most of our guys just drink themselves bloody stupid and then get effing hammered at cricket the next day!!!"
Do I assume we may have lost today !!!
It's not just a defeat sutty I can accept that but our guys get absolutely legless they get fucking hammered last year 65ao this year 72ao fucking embarrassing. 3 never got home at all
The rest drinking all day and night till 6am. Next year we will not give them the excuse.
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I love test cricket and having a drink for most is pretty harmless if your sensible about it. However, over the years i've seen more fancy dress and more guys who are really only there for a piss up and think the longer version of the game is boring.
Although i've not been sat behind fancy dress parties, I can imagine as the day wears on it would be a right pain in the arse as many of them stand up more and mess about (generally showing off and not really giving a toss about other spectators). If you tell them to sit down you'd prob be outnumbered and called a bore or a spoilsport.
I went to Old Trafford for the first day of the test v South Africa and it was a fascinating day, 260-6 it finsihed and it was a battle between bat and ball, runs hard to come by. However, some guys in our stand spent half the time at the bar (even after lunch) and half way through the last session left to meet other mates in a pub. Other guys tried to form a beer snake, which is funny but then asking other spectators to join in, when more intersted in the cricket, some didn't and were called bore's as the cricket was supposedly crap.
Shame really, the game does need more spectators (T20, One dayers etc help revenue) but you will attract guys who really aren't that into the longer form of the game and use the day as an excuse for a piss up.
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Shame to see the Windies in this state.
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As we arrived at New Street there were a load of blokes obviously on their way to Edgbaston already half cut with their 'fancy dress' tucked under their arms. Can't think of a worse day at Test cricket than watching it amongst a bunch of pissed up, lairy blokes in fancy dress desperately trying to get on TV and chanting the same moronic chants all day. Save it for the T20.
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As we arrived at New Street there were a load of blokes obviously on their way to Edgbaston already half cut with their 'fancy dress' tucked under their arms. Can't think of a worse day at Test cricket than watching it amongst a bunch of pissed up, lairy blokes in fancy dress desperately trying to get on TV and chanting the same moronic chants all day. Save it for the T20.
I was listening to it on the radio while sat in traffic on the M6. I never want to hear that bloody "don't take me home" chant, ever, ever again.
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Edgbaston affords options when watching the cricket, two years ago we sat in the West Stand upper for the Ashes match. The cricket was the be all and end all for everyone sat in the stand, no fancy dress, no singing or drunken behaviour.
On Friday we chose the Hollies, mainly down to the likelihood of the match being one sided and far less interesting. Yes, the songs can get tiresome but the early curtailment put paid to that and the atmosphere was great throughout the afternoon. You can still enjoy the game but there is so much going on it can be distracting. I still got to see Cooks's double century though and we all had a good day out.
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As we arrived at New Street there were a load of blokes obviously on their way to Edgbaston already half cut with their 'fancy dress' tucked under their arms. Can't think of a worse day at Test cricket than watching it amongst a bunch of pissed up, lairy blokes in fancy dress desperately trying to get on TV and chanting the same moronic chants all day. Save it for the T20.
Or rather not at all. It can totally spoil the experience to be honest, as I 've seen the kind of groups you have perfectly described become abusive and insulting to people who are just there to watch the cricket. There was a group in the Raglan Stand on Thursday night who fell into that category and one of them was wandering around mouthing off at people (and this was at 'lunch'). Thankfully they were not too near me and were escorted out pretty quickly. I guess the whole 'Barmy Army' thing attracts that kind of behaviour and to be honest it's not something that particularly appeals to me (hilarious 'beer snakes' that shower anyone unfortunate enough to be caught under them with warm beer, throwing inflatables around etc.), but I guess the grounds want to maximise their income.
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Only reason I said to save it for T20 is that I never attend any. Does that prat that looks like Savile still lead them with his trumpet? He's the Sheffield Wednesday band gone solo.
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Due to the monsoon-like conditions on Friday we took refuge in the Tally Ho, where, unbeknown to us, the Barmy Army take over and you can have a few drinks after (and before) the game. We were only in for a short while but during that time some sort of band came on, all acoustic instruments and England Cricket songs. I'm probably being rather unfair here but what with the red, white and blue décor throughout the room it reminded me of "Half A Shilling" from Phoenix Nights.
I'd had a few mind.
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Only reason I said to save it for T20 is that I never attend any. Does that prat that looks like Savile still lead them with his trumpet? He's the Sheffield Wednesday band gone solo.
No idea, though I'm guessing he might keep more of a low profile these days after recent revelations about his lookalike. There was one idiot running up and down the front of the Hollies Stand on Thursday (don't know if it was him) trying to start an 'Icelandic Thunderclap' in the different sections. I think the trumpeter is someone else, but I certainly wouldn't want to be near any of them if I went to a test abroad.
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Woakes back in for TRJ for the test starting tomorrow, probably the right thing to do, Woakes needs the game time to kick on in his recovery and TRJ has already secured his place in the squad for Oz.
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Only reason I said to save it for T20 is that I never attend any. Does that prat that looks like Savile still lead them with his trumpet? He's the Sheffield Wednesday band gone solo.
He cut his hair after the Saville revelations.
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England won the toss and are batting, fairly quiet first few overs.
10-0 (4)
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Cook went quite cheap (great low catch in the slips though) so now is where we see if Stoneman and Westley can step up and make a partnership. Our problem in the last couple of years has been that if Cook and Root don't score big then we don't so these 2 need to show that they have the ability and temperament to address that.
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Doesn't seem to matter what the opposition are or what the conditions are, England are generally 30-2.
Westley's flaw of bringing the bat down at that angle should be terminal to his ashes hopes. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of replacements though
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26-2
Westley LBW is starting to look a bit familiar, good delivery to him but he needs to fix that technical flaw if he wants to play at this level.
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and now Stoneman has gone, thin inside edge to the keeper for 19, can't fault him much, very good delivery, seem was wobbling a lot.
37-3
We really need Malan to hang around with Root for a bit now. It is Headingley under clouds though so 250-300 is probably a decent score but we've got work to do to even get to there.
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Bad drop at first slip to reprieve Root
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71-4
terrible shot from Malan to play on. The ball didn't really do anything, he just misread the line.
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Score looks a little more respectable now at 124-4 and Root/Stokes are, again, building a decent partnership. From the conditions I honestly think 300 is a good score on here. As well as the cloud the pitch is already cutting up quite badly in the footholes, it certainly doesn't look like it's only seen 42 overs, Gabriel in particular has done a number on one end.
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I really should know better than to type stuff like that...
Root gone.
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Pretty weak from England this.
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England once again showing a weak streak that is always there. Need to eliminate this before the ashes otherwise it could be very tough tour.
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Agreed, I still think Hameed is the opener to persevere with. I also think Hales at 5 might make sense.
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Ordinary at best batting performance.
WI let us off the hook quite a bit to be honest. Could have easily bowled us out for 150-175 if they'd taken some pretty simple chances.
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Are the West Indies now officially the Windies?
One of the commentators earlier said West Indies but then corrected himself by saying; "sorry, I mean Windies'
I suppose, "English speaking part of the Caribbean and a small bit of South America" is too long
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Windies has been adopted as the 'Brand'
You'd have thought they'd make sure their cricket was worthy of being referred to a a 'brand' first!
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Much better bowling performance from the Windies and they've exposed our problems at the top of the order again. Seeing as they have frailties in their batting line up as well then it could be quite an exciting test.
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England's refusal to bow to conventional cricket logic is a bit baffling. Why is Root in at 4 and not 3? The abject failure of the top order has shown he's fine against the new ball, so why not just go with it? Why isn't Buttler even apparently in contention for Tests when Westley etc are given multiple tries? Buttler has at least shown the ability to take on international attacks. It's such a weird, ornate dance that the selectors are prancing around common sense. Just do the obvious for once, and see if it works.
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England's refusal to bow to conventional cricket logic is a bit baffling. Why is Root in at 4 and not 3? The abject failure of the top order has shown he's fine against the new ball, so why not just go with it? Why isn't Buttler even apparently in contention for Tests when Westley etc are given multiple tries? Buttler has at least shown the ability to take on international attacks. It's such a weird, ornate dance that the selectors are prancing around common sense. Just do the obvious for once, and see if it works.
I think the rumour is that Root himself wants to bat at four and feels most comfortable there.
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I'm sure he does, but right now he's practically batting at two and would help sort out a selection conundrum by going in at 3.
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England's refusal to bow to conventional cricket logic is a bit baffling. Why is Root in at 4 and not 3? The abject failure of the top order has shown he's fine against the new ball, so why not just go with it? Why isn't Buttler even apparently in contention for Tests when Westley etc are given multiple tries? Buttler has at least shown the ability to take on international attacks. It's such a weird, ornate dance that the selectors are prancing around common sense. Just do the obvious for once, and see if it works.
Buttler will surely go to Oz, and I did wonder why they haven't given him another go, even if his Test average (31) is so-so for 30 innings. However, unless I'm barking up the wrong tree, he has only two 1st Class innings all season with and average of 10! Even so, I'd recall him.
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Buttler hasn't got enough red ball runs for Lancs. Something he admits himself.
Hales asked to bat down the order for Notts, he's scored well and should be in the Ashes squad.
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I'm sure he does, but right now he's practically batting at two and would help sort out a selection conundrum by going in at 3.
It doesn't really solve the selection issue, it just shoves it to number four.
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Buttler hasn't got enough red ball runs for Lancs. Something he admits himself.
Hales asked to bat down the order for Notts, he's scored well and should be in the Ashes squad.
Need to look at Hales at five in this series really.
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Buttler hasn't got enough red ball runs for Lancs. Something he admits himself.
Hales asked to bat down the order for Notts, he's scored well and should be in the Ashes squad.
Need to look at Hales at five in this series really.
Yep, that's the change I'd be going with, Hales has earned a chance and he's shown that he's not overawed at international level with some very good ODI and iT20 performances.
I don't know what we do about 2-3 but I'd leave Root where he is for now (and I wouldn't try to solve anything by moving any of the middle/lower order up either).
Could it be worth a look at Buttler opening and tell him to swing a bit and try to see off the opening bowlers quickly. It's not a long term solution I'm happy with but someone to make real use of the early pace and duff the leather up a bit, it might also spread the field a little sooner if we're piling on some early runs. Right now we neither score big or quick so if we can't find someone to bring the former then lets give the latter a go and see if we can get teams on the back foot.
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If we don't get the top order sorted, the Aussies are going to run riot.
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That's my concern. We will get away with it against the Westdies, but the Aussie bowlers will have a laugh against our top order.
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We're in some difficulty here.
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Stokes is very close to a suspension now. We really don't need that to happen in the Ashes.
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I think England can learn from Hope and Braithwaite. Sometimes you need to occupy the crease.
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I think England can learn from Hope and Braithwaite. Sometimes you need to occupy the crease.
You need to actually be at the crease to do that!! Problem with three of our top five is that they aren't generally there long enough to do that.
What a first over at Headingley!! If we can get them out sharpish and bat very well, we still might pull this one out.
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That's my concern. We will get away with it against the Westdies, but the Aussie bowlers will have a laugh against our top order.
The pitches are probably going to be fairly flat, as they've been for a long time. If 6-9 bat as well as advertised, there shouldn't be too many problems.
I think I'd be more concerned about whether the bowling attack is good enough to pick up 20 wickets.
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I wish TMS would get rid of Graeme Swann and replace him with James Taylor then Swann can watch the Tests in fancy dress with some kind of inflatable with his 'wacky'mates. His West Indian accents this morning were reminicisent of Jim 'Chalky' Davidson, Aggers always seems slightly irritated by him.
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I wish TMS would get rid of Graeme Swann and replace him with James Taylor then Swann can watch the Tests in fancy dress with some kind of inflatable with his 'wacky'mates. His West Indian accents this morning were reminicisent of Jim 'Chalky' Davidson, Aggers always seems slightly irritated by him.
He's a twat isn't he? He's got this aggressive alpha 'banter' thing where he has to turn every conversation into an arm-wrestle. It's uncomfortable to listen to, to be honest.
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I wish TMS would get rid of Graeme Swann and replace him with James Taylor then Swann can watch the Tests in fancy dress with some kind of inflatable with his 'wacky'mates. His West Indian accents this morning were reminicisent of Jim 'Chalky' Davidson, Aggers always seems slightly irritated by him.
I was thinking that. It was cringe worthy.
The two new boys now have a chance to guarantee a place on the plane to Australia.
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England are feeling a bit 90s with selections at the moment, I bet that's probably someone in for Westley now.
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Westley and Jennings won't cut it at test level. Shuffle the order and put Jos Buttler in instead? Say at six?
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1,2 and 3 positions must be sorted pdq. Cook is one of those it's the other two batters England need to find solid enough to thwart Aussie quickies at Perth and Adelaide.☹️
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I wish TMS would get rid of Graeme Swann and replace him with James Taylor then Swann can watch the Tests in fancy dress with some kind of inflatable with his 'wacky'mates. His West Indian accents this morning were reminicisent of Jim 'Chalky' Davidson, Aggers always seems slightly irritated by him.
I don't mind Swann most of the time but he does seem to be trying too hard to be wacky and the humour seems forced.
Unlike, say, Tuffers who is funny and insightful
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I know that the Windies have dropped some catches but Moeen's earlier to day was worse than any of them.
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Wow, Jason Holder has finally remembered that Bishoo is on the field
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25 no balls in this over so far.
Have we got some sub continent betting shenanigans going on here.
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25 no balls in an over!? I'm assuming that's innings but yeah that's a lot.
Stoneman will probably make the tour now, and if Malan makes a significant score he'll have done enough.
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England are feeling a bit 90s with selections at the moment, I bet that's probably someone in for Westley now.
Not sure it's that bad Paul!! Back then we would just lurch wildly in terms of selection and make up of the team. We're not in that position now, just struggling to find good options in three positions.
Mentioned it before, but it is a bit worrying that fairly experienced domestic players are coming into the international scene with massive technical flaws that are getting immediately worked out.
In terms of this test, will be interesting if we can set a target in the region of 270+ and conditions get a little more bowler friendly.
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Root is an excellent player, with an excellent record.
However, his conversion rate from fifties to hundreds is pretty ordinary and is why he is probably behind the likes of Steve Smith, Williamson and Kohli. Root's made fifties in 12 consecutive test matches and has only turned 3 of them into hundreds
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Good comeback from England. Declaration tonight and give the Windies a few overs to bat?
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Moeen is tremendous.
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Lot of great players in this England team when I compare it with what I grew up with in 90s. Even the fading oldies like Cook, Jimmy and Broad are still decent. Root is the most talented English cricketer I've ever seen and quite possibly will ever see. Moeen and Stokes are both outstanding all rounders with Woakes and TRJ nor far behind. Bairstow another quality all rounder as wk/batsman. If Malan and Stoneman step up I can see a good winter ahead. Good days to be an England cricket fan.
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Lot of great players in this England team when I compare it with what I grew up with in 90s. Even the fading oldies like Cook, Jimmy and Broad are still decent. Root is the most talented English cricketer I've ever seen and quite possibly will ever see. Moeen and Stokes are both outstanding all rounders with Woakes and TRJ nor far behind. Bairstow another quality all rounder as wk/batsman. If Malan and Stoneman step up I can see a good winter ahead. Good days to be an England cricket fan.
As shown today, (and when Woakes gets back to full bowling sharpness) the 6-11 part of the side is a very strong unit with both bat and ball. It's the best English lower order batting line up I have seen.
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windies 61/2 chasing 322. 2nd wicket is one for the highlights apparently.
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windies 61/2 chasing 322. 2nd wicket is one for the highlights apparently.
Yep, really fluky. Unlucky for Hope
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Good to hear my fellow Forester, Steve James on the TMS journalist panel during lunch.
I knew him when we were kids and later on we occasionally played in the same rugby team.
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This is pretty well poised now, with all three results still possible. I would say a draw is favourite, with not much between a win for either side.
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Since I turned up at Headingley we haven't taken a wicket. Apologies to all.
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How did the conversation on TMS get round to cheating at Chess ?
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This could well be a match winning partnership for the West Indies. We're going to have to do something pretty special to wrestle back momentum now.
Looks like the draw is now less likely and one side will end up winning it, with Windies surely now being favourites.
Should be some last session.
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This could well be a match winning partnership for the West Indies. We're going to have to do something pretty special to wrestle back momentum now.
Looks like the draw is now less likely and one side will end up winning it, with Windies surely now being favourites.
Should be some last session.
I think they're cruising to victory. Stupid declaration at 1-0 in the final test.
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This could well be a match winning partnership for the West Indies. We're going to have to do something pretty special to wrestle back momentum now.
Looks like the draw is now less likely and one side will end up winning it, with Windies surely now being favourites.
Should be some last session.
I think they're cruising to victory. Stupid declaration at 1-0 in the final test.
Yep, people criticised Cook for being overly cautious with his declarations but Root's hopefully learnt a valuable lesson in this test.
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And yet I've just heard Michael Atherton and Michael Holding saying what a good declaration it was and no blame should be attached there.
Nobody on here ever seems happy with the timing of the declaration!
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And yet I've just heard Michael Atherton and Michael Holding saying what a good declaration it was and no blame should be attached there.
Nobody on here ever seems happy with the timing of the declaration!
Yes, there seems a lot of opinion on the BBC feed that Root did the right thing and well done the Windies for chasing it down.
I wonder if the opinion would be the same had it been Australia in the Ashes instead of the plucky little Windies...
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Maybe England could have batted until close but I think the declaration was the right thing to do.
I'd add that pretty much every T.M.S. person thought it was the correct decision.
It's made for a great days cricket.
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Well done West Indies great effort. England were poor, but hopefully this is a launch pad for the Windies.
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Well done West Indies a superb test match win.
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There was nothing wrong with declaration. 321 was a good target to set however not being able to win from that position is not good enough and not being able to defend is very poor cricket. Broad and Anderson as senior quick strikers must take this on the chin and reevaluate their own effectiveness.
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Great viewing, well done the Windies, under the circumstances Shai Hope's knock must go down as one of the great Test innings.
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Disappointing day today. I think that the declaration was OK, you should be able to bowl a team out for under 320 in a fourth innings.
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Very good win for the Windies and hopefully they can build on that. World cricket needs as many strong teams as possible and hopefully a few of those currently in test exile will see that and want to return. Gabriel coming back was a big boost for them and dismissing us pretty cheaply in the first innings gave them a bit of confidence.
As for us, that poor first innings really cost us. I didn't think the declaration was that bad a decision, but Woakes looked undercooked in terms of bowling and we missed Roland-Jones, who has been a good foil for Broad and Anderson this summer.
Sets the decider at Lords up nicely now.
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Woakes needs bowling in his legs, he was well down in this game.
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Nothing wrong with that declaration, a game that was a true game on day 5 was such a brilliant rarity....much rather a sporting declaration than an overly cautious one.
Agree ref missing Roland-Jones but hopefully that test will be the miles in Woakes legs as in the bigger picture he is a better 3rd seamer.
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And yet I've just heard Michael Atherton and Michael Holding saying what a good declaration it was and no blame should be attached there.
Nobody on here ever seems happy with the timing of the declaration!
I was quite happy with it. 9/10 you win a match from that position. England just didn't bowl brilliantly and dropped easy catches. Not Root's fault.
Hopefully this will have a happy side effect of reigniting love for the test game in the Caribbean.
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Nothing wrong with that declaration, a game that was a true game on day 5 was such a brilliant rarity....much rather a sporting declaration than an overly cautious one.
Agree ref missing Roland-Jones but hopefully that test will be the miles in Woakes legs as in the bigger picture he is a better 3rd seamer.
I agree regarding Woakes and although he made a telling contribution with the bat, he looked undercooked with the ball. He is undoubtedly the best option as the third seamer when fully fit, but I don't know if this was a bit too soon for him. Roland-Jones has had a very good summer and must consider himself very unlucky to be dropped.
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Exciting finish in the Bangladesh vs Australia test. Aussies need 48 to win with two wickets remaining.
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Bangladesh win by 20 runs :) ;D
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And yet I've just heard Michael Atherton and Michael Holding saying what a good declaration it was and no blame should be attached there.
Nobody on here ever seems happy with the timing of the declaration!
Yes, there seems a lot of opinion on the BBC feed that Root did the right thing and well done the Windies for chasing it down.
I wonder if the opinion would be the same had it been Australia in the Ashes instead of the plucky little Windies...
Pretty sure he wouldn't have declared if it was against the Aussies. The declaration was presumably linked to the fact they have barely won a game for ages and that they had been rolled over twice recently for not very many by England.
Hats off to the West Indies - a great game of (proper) cricket.
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And yet I've just heard Michael Atherton and Michael Holding saying what a good declaration it was and no blame should be attached there.
Nobody on here ever seems happy with the timing of the declaration!
Yes, there seems a lot of opinion on the BBC feed that Root did the right thing and well done the Windies for chasing it down.
I wonder if the opinion would be the same had it been Australia in the Ashes instead of the plucky little Windies...
Pretty sure he wouldn't have declared if it was against the Aussies. The declaration was presumably linked to the fact they have barely won a game for ages and that they had been rolled over twice recently for not very many by England.
Hats off to the West Indies - a great game of (proper) cricket.
Precisely my point. It was the cricketing equivalent of sending the reserves out in a cup game against lower league opposition and losing 3-0.
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There's nothing wrong with deploying difficult tactics against different opponents. Had we been one up in a series against the Aussies, we probably wouldn't have declared. It doesn't mean it was the incorrect decision on this occasion.
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There's nothing wrong with deploying difficult tactics against different opponents. Had we been one up in a series against the Aussies, we probably wouldn't have declared. It doesn't mean it was the incorrect decision on this occasion.
That's my view. Declaring against a struggling Windies team was the right thing to do.
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There was nothing wrong with the declaration and i hope Root remembers that. We didn't catch well, we got caught out in the worst batting conditions of the match (but still left 50-100 runs on the pitch in the first innings) and the bowling wasn't the right length for the pitch. 1-2 of those problems you can get away with but all 3 and you're going to struggle against anyone.
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I doubt there's anyone who seriously thought the WI had a chance of chasing down those runs. It was definitely correct to declare in my opinion.
Hope and Brathwaite batted superbly, we bowled poorly and the pitch seemed to be strangely quieter than the day before.
I do fear for us in Australia at the moment
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And yet I've just heard Michael Atherton and Michael Holding saying what a good declaration it was and no blame should be attached there.
Nobody on here ever seems happy with the timing of the declaration!
Yes, there seems a lot of opinion on the BBC feed that Root did the right thing and well done the Windies for chasing it down.
I wonder if the opinion would be the same had it been Australia in the Ashes instead of the plucky little Windies...
Pretty sure he wouldn't have declared if it was against the Aussies. The declaration was presumably linked to the fact they have barely won a game for ages and that they had been rolled over twice recently for not very many by England.
Hats off to the West Indies - a great game of (proper) cricket.
Precisely my point. It was the cricketing equivalent of sending the reserves out in a cup game against lower league opposition and losing 3-0.
No it wasn't.
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And yet I've just heard Michael Atherton and Michael Holding saying what a good declaration it was and no blame should be attached there.
Nobody on here ever seems happy with the timing of the declaration!
Yes, there seems a lot of opinion on the BBC feed that Root did the right thing and well done the Windies for chasing it down.
I wonder if the opinion would be the same had it been Australia in the Ashes instead of the plucky little Windies...
Pretty sure he wouldn't have declared if it was against the Aussies. The declaration was presumably linked to the fact they have barely won a game for ages and that they had been rolled over twice recently for not very many by England.
Hats off to the West Indies - a great game of (proper) cricket.
Precisely my point. It was the cricketing equivalent of sending the reserves out in a cup game against lower league opposition and losing 3-0.
No it wasn't.
Root underestimated the Windies because they're a bit crap at the moment and got a bloody nose for it.
If the next test went exactly the same way, he declared at the same point and the Windies chased it down again would people say he did the right thing again?
I'm not saying it was the wrong decision but that doesn't mean he can't learn from it. He's an extremely young captain and that decision (and the subsequent 4th innings performance of his team) could end up being part of the reason we lose a home test series to a team ranked one place above Bangladesh!
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I doubt very much that Root made the decision on his own. No one could predict Broad would bowl so brainlessly in the evening, that the pitch would suddenly decide not to spin, that they'd drop Brathwaite twice early in his innings. It's a supreme bit of second guessing to say it was a poor decision.
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I heard Trevor Bayliss on TMS say it was a decision made by Root, Stokes and himself. I haven't heard criticism of the decision from any of the many ex players, commentators or summarisers.
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If you played that scenario out 10 more times, the Windies would do well to win one of them.
Cook couldn't catch a cold, and a guy went on to get hundreds in both innings which has never, ever been done at that ground before.
We take it on the chin, no concerns over getting back on track at Lords.
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I agreed with the decision to declare and that sort of bold play would result in more wins than draws/losses in the long-term. The Windies batted exceptionally well and our bowling was below par. Root's problem was that he placed his reliance on the senior bowlers and they didn't deliver, and the change bowlers just weren't on it. That combined with our inability to catch meant we lost.
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Bangladesh win by 20 runs :) ;D
The two Test results in the last 24 hours are very good for world cricket. Well done Bangladesh.
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Again there was nothing wrong with declaration IMO.
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Poor captaincy from Root cost us the match.
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Worryingly we lose a test after winning one again.
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"Illustrating the scale of the achievement, only Don Bradman’s ‘Invincibles’ have made more runs in the fourth innings to win a test in Leeds".
Seriously, would anyone on here have had much more than a fiver on this(that) Windies side chasing down 320-odd? I wouldn't. I genuinely expected us to have it wrapped up well before tea. To bat on and leave them chasing, what, 400? With our attack? Nah. Fuck that. Little dabble late on the fourth, winkle one out, home tomorrow and feet up in time for Countdown.
This is what sport's about. The mental fortitude shown to win this game was immense. Superb, sirs, fucking superb.
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Absolutely nothing wrong with the declaration, and any team that chases down 320 in the last inning deserves all the credit rather than people focusing on that decision. Shai Hope's innings was brilliant, and let's hope his attitude and demeanour for the long game rubs off on some of his less keen colleagues, Test cricket is always a better place for a strong Windies team.
The thing that got me was the seemingly sudden lack of spin, the previous couple of days the ball had been moving all over the place, yet when Ali got it on the last day there was barely any spin. We all know Ali can bowl opponents out on wearing wickets so I'll put this one down to a strange anomaly rather than Ali's ability.
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Poor captaincy from Root cost us the match.
Care to expand on this, or are you solely going on the declaration? I thought he rotated the bowlers well, would have expected more movement from Ali (see above), can't be blamed for dropped catches, did his bit with the bat and I don't remember any howlers on the review side. Sometimes you just have to take a defeat on the chin despite everything.
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Worryingly we lose a test after winning one again.
It's not the same at all though. We actually showed real fight in adversity this time and had totally turned round the match to be in a winning position. We were just beaten by a brilliant last innings. It wasn't so much us losing, as the West Indies winning if that makes sense. There are obviously still issues in the England side but they'd have been present in a win or a defeat.
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Hi Dave Cooper.
My criticism of Root had nothing to do with the declaration.
My complaints are: 1. Why no short-leg in when the ball was only five overs old at the start of the day?
2. Why no third man when the ball went soft -this must have cost circa fifty runs!
3. Why only five overs from Stokes?
PS. It wasn't his fault that Woakes wasn't fully fit to bowl.
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Yikes.
Star India (a Fox company...) have paid the BCCI £1.97bn for a 5 year contract to televise the IPL. No wonder cricket dances to their tune.
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Kieron Pollard has been criticised on social media after bowling a no-ball which denied opposition batsman Evin Lewis the chance of a century in a Caribbean Premier League match.
Pollard bowled a big no-ball when Lewis was on 97 off 32 balls, with St Kitts and Nevis Patriots needing one run to beat Barbados Tridents in the Twenty20 competition.The no-ball gave 25-year-old Lewis' side the win but saw him miss out on the chance of a ton after he and captain Chris Gayle reached 129-0.
Cricket statistician and journalist Mazher Arshad said: "So Kieron Pollard bowls a no-ball to deny Evin Lewis a hundred in CPL. Suraj Randiv was suspended for a match when he did that to [Virender] Sehwag in 2010."
Cricket supporter Mainraj Paudel called Pollard's actions a "shameless act" on Twitter, while another spectator, Abhishek Chaturvedi, accused Pollard of showing "zero sportsmanship".
Lewis, however, was more diplomatic.In a televised post-match interview, he said: "It hurts [missing out on the hundred], but hitting 97 not out off 33 balls? I'll take that any day."I've been hitting the ball long and hard in the nets. I'm confident now and looking forward to the play-offs."
If Lewis had completed his century in 33 balls, it would have been the second fastest of all time - just behind Chris Gayle's 30-ball IPL knock in 2013.
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It's just not cricket.
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West Indies batsman Marlon Samuels has warned England's Ben Stokes to "stay on the boundary" in the limited-overs matches this month.
The pair have clashed several times, notably when Samuels saluted after Stokes' dismissal in a Test in 2015.
The sides play a solitary Twenty20 at Durham on 16 September, before a five-ODI series starts on 19 September.
"I'm going to come to England and be a good boy, at least for the start," 36-year-old Samuels told the Guardian.
"As long as he keeps quiet, I won't start anything, so if anything does happen that means he has said something to me first.
"He should stay on the boundary when I'm batting, as far away as possible."
Stokes and Samuels exchanged words during the second Test in Grenada in 2015, after which Samuels said "the English boys don't learn".
When Stokes was dismissed later in the game, Samuels stood and saluted as the all-rounder left the field.
Stokes, 26, said Samuels "lacks respect" after he put his feet on the table during a news conference following West Indies' World T20 final victory over England in 2016.
Samuels added: "He wanted to take me on a couple of years ago. He started something and I told him he better be prepared to finish it.
"But I saw him during the IPL this year and he didn't say anything. I hope he can continue on that path. If not, I have things in place."
Stokes, who was reprimanded for using "obscene, offensive or insulting" language during the second Test West Indies at Headingley, is one demerit point away from a ban.
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West Indies batsman Marlon Samuels has warned England's Ben Stokes to "stay on the boundary" in the limited-overs matches this month.
The pair have clashed several times, notably when Samuels saluted after Stokes' dismissal in a Test in 2015.
The sides play a solitary Twenty20 at Durham on 16 September, before a five-ODI series starts on 19 September.
"I'm going to come to England and be a good boy, at least for the start," 36-year-old Samuels told the Guardian.
"As long as he keeps quiet, I won't start anything, so if anything does happen that means he has said something to me first.
"He should stay on the boundary when I'm batting, as far away as possible."
Stokes and Samuels exchanged words during the second Test in Grenada in 2015, after which Samuels said "the English boys don't learn".
When Stokes was dismissed later in the game, Samuels stood and saluted as the all-rounder left the field.
Stokes, 26, said Samuels "lacks respect" after he put his feet on the table during a news conference following West Indies' World T20 final victory over England in 2016.
Samuels added: "He wanted to take me on a couple of years ago. He started something and I told him he better be prepared to finish it.
"But I saw him during the IPL this year and he didn't say anything. I hope he can continue on that path. If not, I have things in place."
Stokes, who was reprimanded for using "obscene, offensive or insulting" language during the second Test West Indies at Headingley, is one demerit point away from a ban.
caught something on the radio yesterday that Stokes and Ali aren't going to be playing in some of the upcoming games. Not sure if it was just the T20 or the whole ODI series.
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West Indies batsman Marlon Samuels has warned England's Ben Stokes to "stay on the boundary" in the limited-overs matches this month.
The pair have clashed several times, notably when Samuels saluted after Stokes' dismissal in a Test in 2015.
The sides play a solitary Twenty20 at Durham on 16 September, before a five-ODI series starts on 19 September.
"I'm going to come to England and be a good boy, at least for the start," 36-year-old Samuels told the Guardian.
"As long as he keeps quiet, I won't start anything, so if anything does happen that means he has said something to me first.
"He should stay on the boundary when I'm batting, as far away as possible."
Stokes and Samuels exchanged words during the second Test in Grenada in 2015, after which Samuels said "the English boys don't learn".
When Stokes was dismissed later in the game, Samuels stood and saluted as the all-rounder left the field.
Stokes, 26, said Samuels "lacks respect" after he put his feet on the table during a news conference following West Indies' World T20 final victory over England in 2016.
Samuels added: "He wanted to take me on a couple of years ago. He started something and I told him he better be prepared to finish it.
"But I saw him during the IPL this year and he didn't say anything. I hope he can continue on that path. If not, I have things in place."
Stokes, who was reprimanded for using "obscene, offensive or insulting" language during the second Test West Indies at Headingley, is one demerit point away from a ban.
caught something on the radio yesterday that Stokes and Ali aren't going to be playing in some of the upcoming games. Not sure if it was just the T20 or the whole ODI series.
I think they're being rested just for the T20.
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They've dropped Woakes for Toby Roland-Jones.
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They've dropped Woakes for Toby Roland-Jones.
Quite happy with that if they allow him to play for Bears Next Week. They cited he lacks overs, so if they omit him then deny him opportunity to get overs in for us then it's wrong
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He has to play for Bears this week.
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They've dropped Woakes for Toby Roland-Jones.
Quite happy with that if they allow him to play for Bears Next Week. They cited he lacks overs, so if they omit him then deny him opportunity to get overs in for us then it's wrong
It seems strnage that they didn't make the call a couple of days earlier so he could've played against somerset but yes he has to be allowed to play the next match or they'll have fucked up massively with him.
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I'm still not sure about the decision to drop him, as surely Roland-Jones could have come back in and Woakes could have been used more as an all-rounder, easing himself back in. Malan could have been tried at three instead of Westley, whose technical flaws look too great to conquer at test level.
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Blowers' last game on TMS
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I'm still not sure about the decision to drop him, as surely Roland-Jones could have come back in and Woakes could have been used more as an all-rounder, easing himself back in. Malan could have been tried at three instead of Westley, whose technical flaws look too great to conquer at test level.
The problem with that is that it leaves us with a 6 man attack and a bowler who needs overs to find his rhythm might not get too many chances in that situation. a couple of championship matches is much more use to us.
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I'm still not sure about the decision to drop him, as surely Roland-Jones could have come back in and Woakes could have been used more as an all-rounder, easing himself back in. Malan could have been tried at three instead of Westley, whose technical flaws look too great to conquer at test level.
The problem with that is that it leaves us with a 6 man attack and a bowler who needs overs to find his rhythm might not get too many chances in that situation. a couple of championship matches is much more use to us.
Oh as a Bears fan I definitely agree Paul!! It's just that with him being as good with the bat as he is then it changes things a bit. Saying that, I thought it was a bit harsh to drop Roland-Jones in the last test as he has taken some important wickets this summer.
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I hate a 6 man bowling attack, it's just too many options and somebody goes unused.
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I've said before that I don't mind Graeme Swann as much as others do. However, his funny voices are doing my head in a bit today
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Peter Baxter's blog
http://www.aftertestmatchspecial.com/2017/
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I've said before that I don't mind Graeme Swann as much as others do. However, his funny voices are doing my head in a bit today
Is he doing his 'hilarious' West Indian accent?
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Stokes had it hooping. Windies tailenders stood no chance
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Our top order are leaving it late to find form before The Ashes.
I fear for them on a bunsen in Perth.
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Yes not overly resilient.
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In fairness it was horrendous conditions to bat in, and only Root can be classed as giving his wicket away.
Shannon Gabriel in particular bowled one or 2 brilliant balls at around 92/93 mph and seaming all over the place
Great days cricket
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From the little bit I've seen the conditions and the pitch really aren't suited to trying to dig in, look at cook, he played it safe and then got done by an absolute beauty that was almost unplayable.
When Stokes and Malan played a little more aggressively it looked a little easier.
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Yeah you've definitely got to try to get the bowlers out of a rhythm.
Difficult to do under lights when the red ball is harder to pick up though in fairness
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Yeah you've definitely got to try to get the bowlers out of a rhythm.
Difficult to do under lights when the red ball is harder to pick up though in fairness
Oh I agree, I was just pointing out that the way we approached the innings looked like we were scared to play shots and it looked better when we went for it a little more.
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Yeah agreed.
Westley must be really struggling to make Australia now, barring a very substantial effort in the second dig I can't see how he can go.
Stoneman needs another score also as he doesn't look convincing.
I would love it if they had the balls to go with a top 3 of Cook, Duckett and Livingstone, and really take it to the Aussies. Can't see it though
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I like Malan, I reckon he has something to his game and some grit.
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I like Duckett but I'm not sure about Livingstone, he looked totally unprepared for international cricket in the T20s a few months back, maybe he's more suited to tests but I think he'd be a big risk now.
What's happened to Bell-Drummond? I liked the look of him but he seems to have, like Hain, completely lost his way in the longer format and improved in the short forms instead.
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I like Duckett too they've got rid of him far too fast.
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Hameed scored 88 off 250 balls, hopefully he's found a bit of form.
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Yeah and it sounded like it was in very tough conditions.
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From the little bit I've seen the conditions and the pitch really aren't suited to trying to dig in, look at cook, he played it safe and then got done by an absolute beauty that was almost unplayable.
When Stokes and Malan played a little more aggressively it looked a little easier.
Yep, I think Stokes went out with the intent to be aggressive. If conditions stay the same then anything approaching a 100 run first innings lead might turn out to be very handy,
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Yesterday's play reminded me of one of those limited overs finals that used to be the last game of the season at Lords. If you won the toss you asked the opposition to bat and you generally won the game because the ball did all sorts. Playing a test at Lords in September hardly makes for an even contest between bat and ball.
Something about Lords in September makes the ball swing prodigiously and I guess that vindicated the decision to play Roland-Jones ahead of Woakes.
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In fairness it was horrendous conditions to bat in, and only Root can be classed as giving his wicket away.
Shannon Gabriel in particular bowled one or 2 brilliant balls at around 92/93 mph and seaming all over the place
Great days cricket
This is all true, and what a fine sight for us cricketing purists it is to see a West Indian fast bowler steaming in and bowling 90+mph seamers.
But the fact is our top order, with the exception of Cook and Root, have looked brittle for a long, long time and we don't look anywhere near finding a new opener or number 3. It's a worry heading for Australia and we now have no more time to correct it.
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Malan gets a beauty just before the rain.
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One play that I'm always puzzled on, in terms of lack of selection, is Ben Foakes. I know he's a wicketkeeper, but he's a bloody good batsman and has a lot of talent.
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In fairness it was horrendous conditions to bat in, and only Root can be classed as giving his wicket away.
Shannon Gabriel in particular bowled one or 2 brilliant balls at around 92/93 mph and seaming all over the place
Great days cricket
This is all true, and what a fine sight for us cricketing purists it is to see a West Indian fast bowler steaming in and bowling 90+mph seamers.
But the fact is our top order, with the exception of Cook and Root, have looked brittle for a long, long time and we don't look anywhere near finding a new opener or number 3. It's a worry heading for Australia and we now have no more time to correct it.
Quite so. A very good bowling attack, some superb all rounders in Stokes and Moeen, an excellent middle order, but a top order made of glass.
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One play that I'm always puzzled on, in terms of lack of selection, is Ben Foakes. I know he's a wicketkeeper, but he's a bloody good batsman and has a lot of talent.
Averaging more than the players they've picked this year.
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The problems with the top order really hurt us on batting pitches but pitches like this one we're usually ok because the aggressive middle order will smash us back into the game. If Australia have been paying attention they'll be trying to set up pitches with a first innings 'par' of 400+ and then challenge us to reach it, just like India did.
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I'd still be tempted in Aus to go with Hales opening & Hameed at 3 & challenge him to do the Warner role of getting us off to a flyer. Hales lasting 50 balls with be more productive than Stoneman or Westley scratching round for 8 runs off 40/50 balls.
Problem is there is no exceptional player smashing the door down to get in.
Hameed, Jennings, Stoneman, Westley, Malan, Duckett & Ballance all had good chances & not grasped it....who is next Northeast, Clarke?? Or back to the list again?
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I'd still be tempted in Aus to go with Hales opening & Hameed at 3 & challenge him to do the Warner role of getting us off to a flyer. Hales lasting 50 balls with be more productive than Stoneman or Westley scratching round for 8 runs off 40/50 balls.
Problem is there is no exceptional player smashing the door down to get in.
Hameed, Jennings, Stoneman, Westley, Malan, Duckett & Ballance all had good chances & not grasped it....who is next Northeast, Clarke?? Or back to the list again?
Agree with both and Duckett at 5 for me. If you haven't got obvious choices then pick players who can develop. Hales is a little older but I see him as a short term solution for the next year or 2 whilst Hameed develops at 3 and we find someone else to step forward.
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I honestly can not see Hales lasting 50 balls on fast pitches in Test match conditions.
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I honestly can not see Hales lasting 50 balls on fast pitches in Test match conditions.
Maybe not but nor will any of the others we've tried and at least we know that Hales can score big runs in international cricket (albeit in a different format).
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Sorry for appearing negative again but no to Hameed at 3. 3 is a crises position for the best batter in the team not a position to develop batsman.
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I honestly can not see Hales lasting 50 balls on fast pitches in Test match conditions.
Maybe not but nor will any of the others we've tried and at least we know that Hales can score big runs in international cricket (albeit in a different format).
That is true.
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I actually think Hales would be fine on Aussie wickets, because the bounce is true and the ball isn't going to swing much. I still like Malan people say he hasn't grasped a chance but he's got a couple of 50s and his 20 in this game was pretty good in the context of what has happened. He's shown ability to gut it out.
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I actually think Hales would be fine on Aussie wickets, because the bounce is true and the ball isn't going to swing much. I still like Malan people say he hasn't grasped a chance but he's got a couple of 50s and his 20 in this game was pretty good in the context of what has happened. He's shown ability to gut it out.
His lack of foot movement at the crease is the problem because it makes it a little too easy to square him up.
On the current test if anyone hasn't seen 'that over' I recommend giving this a watch - https://www.ecb.co.uk/tv/466964
How did he not get a wicket with that lot?
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Yeah, it was tremendous, up there with Flintoff's 2 wicket maiden during "that Test" at Edgbaston.
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500 test wickets for Jimmy. Well done that man.
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He is there amongst great bowlers in the world cricket history.
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Amazingly skilled bowler.
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The only two quicks with more are Walsh and McGrath. Impressive.
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The only two quicks with more are Walsh and McGrath. Impressive.
That could well be down to 1 by the end of the ashes, Walsh wasn't a massive amount over 500.
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The only two quicks with more are Walsh and McGrath. Impressive.
That could well be down to 1 by the end of the ashes, Walsh wasn't a massive amount over 500.
If he stays injury free then I expect him to play for a couple more years. If he does then he will overtake Walsh and McGrath. I don't think he will get 300 more wickets to overtake Murali though!
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The only two quicks with more are Walsh and McGrath. Impressive.
That could well be down to 1 by the end of the ashes, Walsh wasn't a massive amount over 500.
Walsh 519 so no not far behind him
In a recent interview Jimmy reckons he can keep playing at this level till he's 40.
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The only two quicks with more are Walsh and McGrath. Impressive.
That could well be down to 1 by the end of the ashes, Walsh wasn't a massive amount over 500.
If he stays injury free then I expect him to play for a couple more years. If he does then he will overtake Walsh and McGrath. I don't think he will get 300 more wickets to overtake Murali though!
I can't imagine a quick ever catching Murali or Warne, the extra wear and tear from the run in and the fact that most teams have 3-4 seamers and 1-2 spinners means they just can't get through enough overs to take that many. You'd need to have 2-3 sessions like Stokes did yesterday every tour to get to that level and that's just not realistic to do consistently for 10 years.
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The only two quicks with more are Walsh and McGrath. Impressive.
That could well be down to 1 by the end of the ashes, Walsh wasn't a massive amount over 500.
If he stays injury free then I expect him to play for a couple more years. If he does then he will overtake Walsh and McGrath. I don't think he will get 300 more wickets to overtake Murali though!
If he were to overtake McGrath that would be very impressive.
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The only two quicks with more are Walsh and McGrath. Impressive.
That could well be down to 1 by the end of the ashes, Walsh wasn't a massive amount over 500.
Walsh 519 so no not far behind him
In a recent interview Jimmy reckons he can keep playing at this level till he's 40.
Sounds optimistic when a bowler says something like that. However, with Jimmy I can definitely see him playing 4/5 more years. He appears to me a very young 35 year old who is physically very fit and his ability levels haven't diminished. He doesn't play in the shorter formats and he doesn't get injured much either.
I'll be very surprised if he doesn't end his career with well over 600 wickets
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I was listening to TMS during the rain break in the morning session.
The West Indian guest commentator was doing a listener's Q&A with Blowers about his TMS career. It was a wonderful piece of radio and was a throwback to the days of Arlott, Johnson, the Bearded Wonder et al when TMS really did seem like you were eavesdropping on the conversation between a few mates at the test match.
Blowers is a bit of an eccentric old coot who makes countless mistakes but I like him and when he leaves the box after this test, the last link with the TMS of old is gone.
The modern brigade of Vaughan, Swann and Dagnall are poor in comparison although I doo like Tuffers. I'd like to hear more of Victor and the return of Mike Selvey.
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I think England have been poor during the last few overs.
Anderson seemed to be arguing with Marais Erasmus after receiving two warnings for running on the pitch. You don't want to celebrate getting to 500 wickets by being taken out of the attack.
Then I thought Root wasted two reviews on needless LBW calls. We could live to regret that.
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I was listening to TMS during the rain break in the morning session.
The West Indian guest commentator was doing a listener's Q&A with Blowers about his TMS career. It was a wonderful piece of radio and was a throwback to the days of Arlott, Johnson, the Bearded Wonder et al when TMS really did seem like you were eavesdropping on the conversation between a few mates at the test match.
Blowers is a bit of an eccentric old coot who makes countless mistakes but I like him and when he leaves the box after this test, the last link with the TMS of old is gone.
The modern brigade of Vaughan, Swann and Dagnall are poor in comparison although I doo like Tuffers. I'd like to hear more of Victor and the return of Mike Selvey.
I loved listening to Tony Cozier, but his replacement on TMS has been brilliant.
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I really hope the Windies set a challenging total.
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The problems with the top order really hurt us on batting pitches but pitches like this one we're usually ok because the aggressive middle order will smash us back into the game. If Australia have been paying attention they'll be trying to set up pitches with a first innings 'par' of 400+ and then challenge us to reach it, just like India did.
That's basically what we've done for years now, and it's generally worked except when up against high-quality fast bowling (which explains why South Africa have been the only side to win in Australia since the 2010-11 Ashes.)
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I really hope the Windies set a challenging total.
Looking highly unlikely at the moment. Anderson and Broad are causing them nightmares
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This is poor, Hope is there they should be supporting him.
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This is poor, Hope is there they should be supporting him.
It's quality bowling their up against though. Anderson and Broad haven't bowled a bad ball between them
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No but it's not like Blackwood is out when he's trying to dig in.
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No but it's not like Blackwood is out when he's trying to dig in.
I don't think Blackwood has it in him to dig in. He sort of tried to play defensively, but looked a walking wicket with the amount of play and misses he had. He probably just thought sod it, might as well try and hit the ball rather than get out defending
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I loved listening to Tony Cozier, but his replacement on TMS has been brilliant.
Yes I listened to him on TMS yesterday and what a wonderful man he is. He did a rendition of cricket lovely cricket absolutely superb. Don't know his name though😥
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Fazier Mohammed isn't it? He's very good.
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Brilliant bowling from Anderson. Six wickets so far.
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Handy little period for Stoneman and Westley this.
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Whatever happens with Stoneman and Westley's futures it's nice they're able to close out this match with a couple of good knocks.
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Interesting debate on SKY yesterday, where Gower, Atherton, Botham, Warne and Hussain picked a 16 man squad for the upcoming Ashes series. I thought it was an interesting insight into the kind of discussions that take place at that level (seeing as all the English pundits are former captains) and this is the 16 they came up with:
Cook, Stoneman, Westley, Root, Malan, Hales, Stokes, Bairstow (WK), Foakes (WK), Ali, Woakes, Broad, Anderson, Roland-Jones, Wood, Crane
All of them said that they want to see Root batting at three in the winter and the only other real debates were whether Westley should go, whether Buttler or Foakes should be the second choice keeper and whether Crane or Rashid should take the second spinner place (Botham mentioned Leach as another possibility). It was agreed that the fact that the Lions are touring Australia at the same time kind of negates the need for any real gambles in selection in terms of younger players.
As for the starting XI, it was interesting to see the different approaches. Atherton and Hussain wanted the extra batsman, whereas Warne was advocating:
Cook, Stoneman, Root, Hales, Stokes, Bairstow, Ali, Woakes, Broad, Anderson, Crane
His logic was that there are going to be a few overs that need to be made up along the way and that it would be better for Crane to bowl them than a part timer like Root.
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I don't agree with Warne on that mainly because if all you're wanting is a few overs of filler then picking a bunny is a dreadful idea. Add to that the fact that Root actually has taken a few decent wickets and I just don't see the need. If you're talking about a genuine all rounder (i.e another Ali) then it changes the discussion but if you pick Crane it has to be with an expectation for him to bowl 20-25% of the overs and to take wickets. On top of that if we were scoring runs but struggling for wickets then, again, switching out a batsman for a pure bowler wouldn't be a terrible decision but all of our problems are in the top 5 and I don't see how shifting everyone up and bringing in a new 11 is helping with that.
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To be fair to Warne, his few overs comment was about the first innings and then he said he would come into it more in the 2nd innings. I like the 6-11 unit of Stokes, Bairstow, Ali, Woakes, Broad and Anderson and would be hesitant to change it, but I just worry about our attack in Australia when the ball isn't doing anything and think we might need to find a way of getting a different bowling option in there somehow.
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To be fair to Warne, his few overs comment was about the first innings and then he said he would come into it more in the 2nd innings. I like the 6-11 unit of Stokes, Bairstow, Ali, Woakes, Broad and Anderson and would be hesitant to change it, but I just worry about our attack in Australia when the ball isn't doing anything and think we might need to find a way of getting a different bowling option in there somehow.
That's a slightly different issue, I do think that there's an argument that the 4 we have are a little too similar and very reliant on the ball swinging, on pitches where that seems unlikely there's a fair argument to look at getting TRJ or Wood in. The next step is who do you leave out? TRJ for Woakes is fair because both offer a bit with the bat but Wood, like Crane, is a bunny so I'd be reluctant to drop Woakes for him which means leaving Broad or Jimmy out, which seems unthinkable but has to be considered if you want to keep the middle order balance that has worked so well for us.
On this one I wouldn't want to be a selector.
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Wood isn't a complete bunny is he? He's averaging around 20 in 1st class cricket.
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To be fair to Warne, his few overs comment was about the first innings and then he said he would come into it more in the 2nd innings. I like the 6-11 unit of Stokes, Bairstow, Ali, Woakes, Broad and Anderson and would be hesitant to change it, but I just worry about our attack in Australia when the ball isn't doing anything and think we might need to find a way of getting a different bowling option in there somehow.
That's a slightly different issue, I do think that there's an argument that the 4 we have are a little too similar and very reliant on the ball swinging, on pitches where that seems unlikely there's a fair argument to look at getting TRJ or Wood in. The next step is who do you leave out? TRJ for Woakes is fair because both offer a bit with the bat but Wood, like Crane, is a bunny so I'd be reluctant to drop Woakes for him which means leaving Broad or Jimmy out, which seems unthinkable but has to be considered if you want to keep the middle order balance that has worked so well for us.
On this one I wouldn't want to be a selector.
Don't know about you Paul, but I'm not sure about Roland-Jones down there as for me he is the archetypal English seamer and is suited to our conditions. With no movement, bowlers of his pace become targets to be attacked and it has been pointed out that the records of Anderson and Broad down there are not great. If fit, Wood in the squad is a must for me as I think he will be a threat on those pitches and I would even consider swapping Roland-Jones with someone like Finn for the Ashes and then bringing him back for New Zealand.
As you say, selection is a dilemma and Broad's batting woes really haven't helped as he is now a 10 or 11 only (they will really target him with the short stuff I reckon).
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Wood isn't a complete bunny is he? He's averaging around 20 in 1st class cricket.
He seems to get single figures or 40-50+ and very little in between but yes, he's not like Crane but he's also not going to provide the crucial late runs that Woakes and Ali have done so well for the last couple of years, he's more like Broad which is why that's who I'd look at leaving out for him.
Tom - I agree that TRJ might be just as limited in Oz but given we don't have any 90+ quicks I'm not sure what else we can do. I do think TRJ bowls a little fuller as his default length though which at least makes hitting the stumps a more realistic prospect than the rest who dislike being driven so go a little shorter.
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Wood isn't a complete bunny is he? He's averaging around 20 in 1st class cricket.
He seems to get single figures or 40-50+ and very little in between but yes, he's not like Crane but he's also not going to provide the crucial late runs that Woakes and Ali have done so well for the last couple of years, he's more like Broad which is why that's who I'd look at leaving out for him.
Tom - I agree that TRJ might be just as limited in Oz but given we don't have any 90+ quicks I'm not sure what else we can do. I do think TRJ bowls a little fuller as his default length though which at least makes hitting the stumps a more realistic prospect than the rest who dislike being driven so go a little shorter.
It will be interesting to see, but I think the 16 they settled on will probably be spot on. having the Lions down there at the same time will be very beneficial and it will be interesting to see how some of the young players like Helm get on if selected.
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7 lbw's out of the first 8 wickets.
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England have subsided but looking at that team it's very light on batting.
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Yeah Rashid in at 7 isn't a great sign
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Windies making a good start in the first ODI. Gayle and Lewis look a strong opening partnership in the limited over formats of the game. Our bowling attack looks a bit one paced.
Edit - Lewis just gone.
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I haven't seen any today. Decent bowling? Poor batting? Shit wicket? Their current score doesn't look up to much to me.
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Sounds decent overall but Stokes had another poor last over, he doesn't like a last over against the windies does he.
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I last looked with 9 balls left and Holder was on 28 or 29. I was quite surprised to see he was still there and on 41 at the close.
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England cruising at the moment, 146-1 off 22 overs.
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Lovely 100 from Jonny.
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Solid win that.
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Bairstow hitting form just at the right time perhaps.
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Windies won toss and put England in to bat.
England same team, 2 x changes for Windies one being no Chris Gayle.
India 220/6 44 gone v Aussies
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Windies won toss and put England in to bat. mop up the water.
Fixed
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Windies won toss and put England in to bat. mop up the water.
Fixed
I posted on Facebook earlier how i was enjoying the days cricket - listening to the goings on at Headingley and watching
India hopefully smash Aussies....then leaving that game to watch England v Windies.....just should have kept fingers away
from keyboard as within 2 overs off at Trent Bridge due to rain...no worries switch over and watch India again and what do
i find walking off for rain (thankfully only short break) but at this time i couldn't resort to Headingly as there they were off
for lunch.
Tale continues to unfold with Bears coming out for lunch only to then succumb to firstly light then rain, incidentally they are
due to be back on in 5 minutes. All this though does give me opportunity to see Zimbabwean Cartwright dismissed for 1 soon followed by
Warner. Aussies 14/2 chasing 253.
Lost only 1 over at Headingley, just coming out now.
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Good timing from Steve Finn, in terms of Ashes selection, to take 8-79 and win the match for Middlesex.
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Aussies 148/8 needing another 105/102
In last over Kuldeep took a hat trick
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England v Windies now been abandoned
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Watching Kuldeep bowling on an Indian wicket gives me the willies. He’s a left arm wrist spinner with an evil googly and must be a nightmare to face at first.
Nice to see the Aussies getting it, and will enjoy that sensation while it lasts...
Shame about the England ODI.
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I know that the Champions Trophy knocked a big hole in the schedule but hosting a five game one day series in England in Mid to late September is plain stupid.
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I know that the Champions Trophy knocked a big hole in the schedule but hosting a five game one day series in England in Mid to late September is plain stupid.
The same will happen when England come to NZ after Australia next year. The test match here in Christchurch is late March into April. I can't see five days play without some rain that time of the year.
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This is devastating from mo.
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Second 50 was off 12 balls! Is this true?
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Yep he went bananas.
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Second 50 was off 12 balls! Is this true?
Yep, it was spectacular, took us from a decent 320ish total to a massive 369 that they never looked like being able to chase unless Gayle batted through. Pretty much a perfect middle order performance in an ODI.
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Moeen is such a super player.
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After the winter I was just hoping this summer that Mo on 98 test wickets would get the chance to get to the 100 before being dropped....one top summer later & he's one of the first names of the team sheet
Excellent 27 minute doc on his background in Birmingham on the ECB website - called No Boundaries
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Moeen is such a super player.
He's now very much the kind of all-rounder that when he catches fire, can take the game away from the opposition with bat and ball.
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Stokes arrested in Bristol and Hales assisting the police
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The Ashes squad. Looks quite frankly terrifying. I know we’re short of batting, but Vince and Ballance? Overton, Foakes and Crane as (albeit promising) backup?
I may spend winter hiding behind the settee.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/41409370
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Overton and Foakes are the right choices, both are in good form and deserve their call up. Crane is for the future and having been around the squad all summer I think keeping him around is sensible.
Vince and Ballance are strange though, Ballance hasn't really looked in any form all summer and Vince has always, for me, looked more of a limited overs player. The issue is that there's really not many options around that look worth a shout. Hildreth and Hales are the 2 who you could argue a case for (in my opinion) but the former has some big question marks over his technique and the latter, for all his limited overs form, never looked comfortable in the test team as an opener, giving him a go at 5 might be seen as a bit too risky.
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Overton and Foakes are the right choices, both are in good form and deserve their call up. Crane is for the future and having been around the squad all summer I think keeping him around is sensible.
Vince and Ballance are strange though, Ballance hasn't really looked in any form all summer and Vince has always, for me, looked more of a limited overs player. The issue is that there's really not many options around that look worth a shout. Hildreth and Hales are the 2 who you could argue a case for (in my opinion) but the former has some big question marks over his technique and the latter, for all his limited overs form, never looked comfortable in the test team as an opener, giving him a go at 5 might be seen as a bit too risky.
Foakes is quite possibly a better batsman than Vince and Ballance. Not sure he could bat at 3 though.
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Would guess the likes of Leach, Buttler & Hameed will be on the Lions tour which I believe is also in Aus at the same time so might find they want a few playing cricket and there will be a bit of chopping and changing of the drinks carriers
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Aggers saying it is the weakest squad he has seen, which I think is a bit OTT. Vince and Ballance selections are being heavily criticised, but seeing as the most likely alternatives were Westley and Hales, it's not really that much of a controversial selection. Wood will be a big miss on those pitches, but 8 of the 11 are still very strong (supposing Stokes makes it). Michael Vaughan on the BBC saying Liam Dawson should have been selected as the second spinner which I just don't see to be honest.
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Vince may be decent on Aussie pitches. We really lack variety in the pace bowling and I think Ballance is a mistake.
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Stokes is the really key one we need him there and playing.
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Billings delivers again.
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We lack genuine pace and with only 2 of the top 5 nailed down we lack batting too, that's the 2 attributes you need to win here.
Thank McGrath the Aussies aren't what they were.
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That's the thing for this Ashes, both teams seem to be in a bit of a mess right now and I honestly can't remember the last time that was the case, home advantage will probably make the difference but a couple of players on either side having a stand out tournament could be enough to swing it.
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The Sun have a video clip of the Stokes brawl. He ain't going to Oz.
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I would say its very unlikely he'll be on that plane.
What I will say is we have to consider the moral toilet that publication resides in so hopefully the police will have the full video not just the edited highlights designed to shock.
No excuses for the blows thrown & he will have to face the consequences.
What the hell he was doing in a low end bar at that time on a Sunday night during a series smashed out of head is just mental & suggests someone who needs firm mgmt.
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That video is pretty damning and is an absolute disaster.
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The Sun have a video clip of the Stokes brawl. He ain't going to Oz.
Not unless they bring back deportation. The video is pretty bad, and whatever provocation there was, that last punch that completely floors the bloke will lead to a short spell inside I reckon. Bloody idiot.
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I think we're fucked without Stokes. The Aussies are loving it.
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What on earth is any player doing outside a nightclub at 2.45 in the morning in the middle of a series anyway?
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Exactly, utter stupidity to put yourself in that position in the first place.
You can imagine what goes on outside these places at 2.30am, the usual random no mark pissheads having a pop hoping for a reaction and guess what.........
Nothing good happens where sportsmen are involved outside nightclubs at that time in the morning.
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That's the thing for this Ashes, both teams seem to be in a bit of a mess right now and I honestly can't remember the last time that was the case, home advantage will probably make the difference but a couple of players on either side having a stand out tournament could be enough to swing it.
This is probably going to bite me later, but I would actually say that we (i.e. Australia) are reasonably well-settled going in, recent terrible ODI form aside. There's a question or two as to who's the no. 6 and whether Wade really is the best keeper we can get, but those aren't really massive issues.
I think it'll basically come down to how good the English quicks are - hold Australia to enough sub-350 totals and we'll have a series on.
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If Stokes doesn't go, which unfortunately looks likely and he needs to learn from this. I think I'd go with Plunkett as a replacement, we don't have anyone like Stokes and I think Plunkett is best option to balance the side. Team would be something like:
Cook
Stoneman
Vince
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Ali
Woakes
Plunkett
Broad
Anderson
Plunkett offers us something different with the ball that we don't have and his batting is useful. We can't replace Stokes, but I think that's the best we can do.
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The big question for me is who would have won in a Botham Stokes biff up?
I think i'd go with Botham.
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If Stokes doesn't go, which unfortunately looks likely and he needs to learn from this. I think I'd go with Plunkett as a replacement, we don't have anyone like Stokes and I think Plunkett is best option to balance the side. Team would be something like:
Cook
Stoneman
Vince
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Ali
Woakes
Plunkett
Broad
Anderson
Plunkett offers us something different with the ball that we don't have and his batting is useful. We can't replace Stokes, but I think that's the best we can do.
I do think we need a bit of extra pace in the bowling attack and if Stokes misses out then that is what I would go with. If Stokes is available then for this series alone I would rejig the batting order and go with at top five of:
Cook, Stoneman, Root, Malan, Bairstow
Stokes, Ali, Woakes, Broad and Anderson would make up the bowling attack which would leave one spot. Again maybe just for the Ashes, we could let Bairstow concentrate on his batting and bat Foakes at seven. In all likelihood though, I think the line up for the first test will be:
Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root, Malan / Ballance, Stokes, Bairstow, Ali, Woakes, Broad, Anderson
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When David Warner smacked Joe Root at 3 in the morning, the Aussies banned him for a period which ended 4 days before the start of the Ashes
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When David Warner smacked Joe Root at 3 in the morning, the Aussies banned him for a period which ended 4 days before the start of the Ashes
I think Warner clipped Root on the chin. Having seen the Stokes video it would appear a long way from that.
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I haven,t seen the clip so can't comment.
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Self defence appears to be a popular line but a few too many punches for me to consider that.
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Given how important hands are to a cricketer I find it staggering that one would be thick enough to go round punching things. I'd be ruling out embroidery, playing the harp and building flat pack furniture if it was me. Surely you have to regard yourself as a professional pianist would - you never see Alfred Brendel lamping arseholes in the early hours, do you? He's got too much respect for his profession.
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I wonder if the case could be delayed until mid-January? Perhaps a Cricket-loving solicitor in the CPS could put the case file at the bottom of their in tray?
That aside I think the Aussies at home in front of a partisan crowd will be too strong for our inconsistent batting. Hopefully it won't be as bad as 2013 but I think we will struggle.
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Self defence appears to be a popular line but a few too many punches for me to consider that.
Just seen the video. To be honest, if someone got caught doing that on Witton Lane before or after the match on Saturday, then they would be looking at a charge and a possible prison sentence. If it was who I think it was in the video, then Hales was involved far more than is being reported as well and again would be looking at similar punishment.
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If he is charged and found guilty logically the best type of sentence would be community service. Him coaching youngsters would be of much greater value than a prison sentence.
It will be a terrible blow for our hopes if he is out of the Ashes. In future I hope he reviews the activities he undertakes socially. He should never have been in the position to react like that.
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The video looks like 2 drunken idiots flailing at each other, handbags until the last 5 seconds.
I'd be surprised if there wasn't some serious provercation but that last punch and the fact that he put himself in that position just cannot be excused.
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I wonder if the case could be delayed until mid-January? Perhaps a Cricket-loving solicitor in the CPS could put the case file at the bottom of their in tray?
That aside I think the Aussies at home in front of a partisan crowd will be too strong for our inconsistent batting. Hopefully it won't be as bad as 2013 but I think we will struggle.
CPS=MCC they all wear the tie ;)
On tour itself I am hoping England are still in the series by the time Melbourne test starts rather than 3-0 down otherwise my appearance in the MCG is going to be spoilt.
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I wonder if the case could be delayed until mid-January? Perhaps a Cricket-loving solicitor in the CPS could put the case file at the bottom of their in tray?
That aside I think the Aussies at home in front of a partisan crowd will be too strong for our inconsistent batting. Hopefully it won't be as bad as 2013 but I think we will struggle.
CPS=MCC they all wear the tie ;)
On tour itself I am hoping England are still in the series by the time Melbourne test starts rather than 3-0 down otherwise my appearance in the MCG is going to be spoilt.
Can you bat 5?
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Haha...no I am an Opener and will move to 3 to help the team but no lower.
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There's talk of Stokes apparently intervening to help two guys who were receiving homophobic abuse.
If true, it still wouldn't excuse the final punch of that video, where the guy clearly is backing away and wants no part of a fight.
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Very noble of him if that is the case but as you say the final punch was a step too far if he hadn't already, he does have previous for having a bit of a short fuse.
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You can clearly hear someone continually shouting 'enough Ben' but he kept at it. I would imagine that isn't going to go well against him.
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You can clearly hear someone continually shouting 'enough Ben' but he kept at it. I would imagine that isn't going to go well against him.
No, it’s like chasing burglars out of your property. If you give them a kicking half a mile down the road the seld defence motive is going to be hard to prove.
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Very noble of him if that is the case but as you say the final punch was a step too far if he hadn't already, he does have previous for having a bit of a short fuse.
If Hales is the person I think he is in the video, then he stamps on and kicks someone who is on the floor. As I say, I'm not sure he will have heard the last of it either.
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Well they have both been suspended for the foreseeable so you might be right
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Stokes in serious trouble and more video footage now on the net where he is heard mocking Katie Price's disabled son. Not good.
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Oh here we go it's going to be the dig everything out about Stokes now. He deserves to be punished for what he's done, but I hope this doesn't become a complete character assassination.
Now that he's almost certainly missing the Ashes, I'm definitely going with the team I picked earlier so time to call up Plunkett.
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From someone I know within the game, this isn't the first time Stokes has been pulled up about his "lifestyle choices".
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No and it was an issue that was flagged up early in his career. I just hope it's this issue that's dealt with rather than dragging up everything from the past.
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From someone I know within the game, this isn't the first time Stokes has been pulled up about his "lifestyle choices".
There were a number of incidents listed on TV last night. Hadn't heard about some of them but this isn't the first incident he's been involved in.
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Paul is right. He shouldn't be tried for previous misdemeanours. I was simply trying to point out that those trying to extend the "it might be this" olive branch also have to appreciate it isn't the first time he has been told to avoid this kind of scenario.
I tell my 2 year old not to touch hot things all the time. If he does it once then I will comfort him. Twice, then I can still do concerned Dad bur make clear he has been through this before and that is why I advised against it. Three times? Architect of your own downfall and no sympathy from me.
Stokes is a prat.
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It doesn’t look good at all - but some questions about the footage that has appeared surely ? This is not CCTV so someone was filming - who and where from ? With what motive ?
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It's the nature of society these days, people get their phones out to film rather than phone the police or ambulance or even go to theaid of those being assaulted. Then of course they sell to the tabloid scum when they realise who they captured.
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Michael Vaughan is being a bit of a tit again on TMS. I'm paraphrasing a bit here:
"England have 8 players who are good test players and 8 players who aren't"
a few minutes later
"the problem before was the mindset they arrived in, they need to all think they deserve to be there and have earned the right to be on the tour"
Seemingly he doesn't see how achieving the latter would be easier if people like him didn't say stuff like the former.
The only player I don't think deserves to be there is Ballance because he had his reprieve played poorly and has been poor for Yorkshire since.
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Michael Vaughan is being a bit of a tit again on TMS. I'm paraphrasing a bit here:
"England have 8 players who are good test players and 8 players who aren't"
a few minutes later
"the problem before was the mindset they arrived in, they need to all think they deserve to be there and have earned the right to be on the tour"
Seemingly he doesn't see how achieving the latter would be easier if people like him didn't say stuff like the former.
The only player I don't think deserves to be there is Ballance because he had his reprieve played poorly and has been poor for Yorkshire since.
Yeah a bit harsh on the likes of Foakes, Crane and Overton who haven't even featured at that level.
I hope who ever interviewed asked him who the alternatives were.
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Michael Vaughan is being a bit of a tit again on TMS. I'm paraphrasing a bit here:
"England have 8 players who are good test players and 8 players who aren't"
a few minutes later
"the problem before was the mindset they arrived in, they need to all think they deserve to be there and have earned the right to be on the tour"
Seemingly he doesn't see how achieving the latter would be easier if people like him didn't say stuff like the former.
The only player I don't think deserves to be there is Ballance because he had his reprieve played poorly and has been poor for Yorkshire since.
Yeah a bit harsh on the likes of Foakes, Crane and Overton who haven't even featured at that level.
I hope who ever interviewed asked him who the alternatives were.
To be fair he did follow it up with talk about how there weren't many clear alternatives but the whole segment felt like, at best, he sees them as the least shit options. They eventually got back to Overton and a few of them confirmed that he's the obvious choice as a quicker option as he is up around 88-89mph.
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Michael Vaughan is being a bit of a tit again on TMS. I'm paraphrasing a bit here:
"England have 8 players who are good test players and 8 players who aren't"
a few minutes later
"the problem before was the mindset they arrived in, they need to all think they deserve to be there and have earned the right to be on the tour"
Seemingly he doesn't see how achieving the latter would be easier if people like him didn't say stuff like the former.
The only player I don't think deserves to be there is Ballance because he had his reprieve played poorly and has been poor for Yorkshire since.
I can't help but think that Ballance gets picked because he and Root came through the ranks together at Yorkshire and they're friends.
Olaftab said he can bat, he should go instead of Ballance.
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Michael Vaughan is being a bit of a tit again on TMS. I'm paraphrasing a bit here:
"England have 8 players who are good test players and 8 players who aren't"
a few minutes later
"the problem before was the mindset they arrived in, they need to all think they deserve to be there and have earned the right to be on the tour"
Seemingly he doesn't see how achieving the latter would be easier if people like him didn't say stuff like the former.
The only player I don't think deserves to be there is Ballance because he had his reprieve played poorly and has been poor for Yorkshire since.
I can't help but think that Ballance gets picked because he and Root came through the ranks together at Yorkshire and they're friends.
Olaftab said he can bat, he should go instead of Ballance.
Didnt Balance start at Derbyshire (well Zimbabwe really i guess)?
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Michael Vaughan is being a bit of a tit again on TMS. I'm paraphrasing a bit here:
"England have 8 players who are good test players and 8 players who aren't"
a few minutes later
"the problem before was the mindset they arrived in, they need to all think they deserve to be there and have earned the right to be on the tour"
Seemingly he doesn't see how achieving the latter would be easier if people like him didn't say stuff like the former.
The only player I don't think deserves to be there is Ballance because he had his reprieve played poorly and has been poor for Yorkshire since.
I can't help but think that Ballance gets picked because he and Root came through the ranks together at Yorkshire and they're friends.
Olaftab said he can bat, he should go instead of Ballance.
Didnt Balance start at Derbyshire (well Zimbabwe really i guess)?
He is Zimbabwean and represented them in the 2006 Under-19 world cup. He only played schoolboy cricket for Derbyshire and signed an academy for Yorkshire in 2007 aged 17 when he shared digs with Joe Root.
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Didn't he get a cricketing scholarship at Eton or something, and go to Derbyshire because his uncle was the coach (Houghton)?
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Today - with a few overs to go Curran has looked good on debut and generally we've bowled really well other than a few truly horrific overs from Ball.
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Today - with a few overs to go Curran has looked good on debut and generally we've bowled really well other than a few truly horrific overs from Ball.
Ball is a funny bowler, when he's good he looks really good but when he's even a bit off he's awful.
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Today - with a few overs to go Curran has looked good on debut and generally we've bowled really well other than a few truly horrific overs from Ball.
Ball is a funny bowler, when he's good he looks really good but when he's even a bit off he's awful.
His problem today, if you haven't been watching, was that he keep bowling at normal pace and on a normal line an length, Gayle picked him for a couple of overs and then smashed him around the ground and then the middle order did the same at the end. His last over he did try to get yorkers in but he didn't do it very well and ended up going for nearly 100 on his own.
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Pretty good form from the openers. Nice for Roy to be back.
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Surely Bairstow has now got to bat higher up the order for the Ashes. I think we would be stronger with him in the top five and another option a bit lower down.
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I'm kind of back and forth on that. I quite like splitting of the best batsmen down the order. It means it can be demoralising for the opposition.
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I see Mark Wood has been named in the Lions squad to tour Aus this winter. Bit of a strange one that seeing as he didn't make the full squad.
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Good too see Duckett hasn't been completely forgotten.
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I see Mark Wood has been named in the Lions squad to tour Aus this winter. Bit of a strange one that seeing as he didn't make the full squad.
He’ll be in Australia & playing, makes perfect sense to get overs in to him rather than carry the drinks for 2 months, call him up & him breaking down because he is coming in cold - same with a Jennings & Westley who will be playing & hopefully getting runs in the conditions
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I see Mark Wood has been named in the Lions squad to tour Aus this winter. Bit of a strange one that seeing as he didn't make the full squad.
He’ll be in Australia & playing, makes perfect sense to get overs in to him rather than carry the drinks for 2 months, call him up & him breaking down because he is coming in cold - same with a Jennings & Westley who will be playing & hopefully getting runs in the conditions
Fair point. I think he is suited to the pitches down there and if fit would definitely look at having him in the side (especially if Stokes is out).
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I see Mark Wood has been named in the Lions squad to tour Aus this winter. Bit of a strange one that seeing as he didn't make the full squad.
He’ll be in Australia & playing, makes perfect sense to get overs in to him rather than carry the drinks for 2 months, call him up & him breaking down because he is coming in cold - same with a Jennings & Westley who will be playing & hopefully getting runs in the conditions
Fair point. I think he is suited to the pitches down there and if fit would definitely look at having him in the side (especially if Stokes is out).
Agree, he has pace that would be useful, if he is fit
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I imagine his ankle is very much not suited to pitches down there though sadly.
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This brilliant little film was hidden away on BBC Four, worth 30 minutes of your time.
Race and Pace: The West Indians in East Lancashire (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b097bl89/race-and-pace-the-west-indians-in-east-lancashire)
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I see Davey Warner pouring oil on troubled water.
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Brilliant interview with my favourite sportsman.
Jonny Bairstow (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/41523011)
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I see two guys in the Stokes incident have confirmed he was defending them from homophobic abuse and they had feared being attacked before he intervened. He may well have gone too far, but it paints it in a different light.
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I saw that as the Aussies have been delighting in the Stokes incident regularly.
What might this mean for the case though? Could it mean he could play sooner?
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I would think if he is charged it may have some impact on sentencing, but haven't got to a decision on whether he's going to be charged yet.
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Whilst Stokes went over the top I actually find it quite refreshing that he saw fit to stand up for two men on a night out getting homophobic abuse and from what I can gather neither he nor Hales had revealed what they did for a living when chatting to the men earlier in the evening.
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I agree.
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There wasn't much on TV last night so I amused myself by watching a rerun of Broad skittling the shackle rattlers at Trent Bridge.
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Despite the latest revelations I see David Warner's wife, Candice Falzon, has come out and said Ben Stokes should be banned from the entire Ashes tour.
Yes, that's David 'gobshite who punched a player in an unprovocked attack and got banned for 28 days' Warner's wife.
Rumour has it she's had more pricks than a 2nd hand dart board too.
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Despite the latest revelations I see David Warner's wife, Candice Falzon, has come out and said Ben Stokes should be banned from the entire Ashes tour.
Yes, that's David 'gobshite who punched a player in an unprovocked attack and got banned for 28 days' Warner's wife.
Rumour has it she's had more pricks than a 2nd hand dart board too.
Before being Mrs Warner wasn't she caught in the bogs with Dunny Bill Williams?
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Yep thats her, all class as you can imagine.
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Oh no, Moeen might have a side strain. That would really be an absolute disaster.
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Oh no, Moeen might have a side strain. That would really be an absolute disaster.
Hopefully with the first test still three weeks away there's plenty of time for him to recover.
Finn is also carrying an injury but Moeen is of greater concern when you also consider the loss of Stokes.
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Finn now out of the tour.
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Finn now out of the tour.
Replaced by Tom Curran
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I liked Curran in the shorter format, but he's not a Test bowler. He'd need to develop significantly, I find it really weird that we haven't picked Plunkett.
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Loss of Finn is significant now especially after Stokes.
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I liked Curran in the shorter format, but he's not a Test bowler. He'd need to develop significantly, I find it really weird that we haven't picked Plunkett.
Agreed. I can only think there are doubts about the 5 day fitness of both Plunkett and Wood.
This is a series I’m happy to be happening mostly while I’m asleep and can pretend it isn’t happening. I’d like to be wrong.
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Thing is if Plunkett played he'd be he fourth seamer who could add to the batting. His bowling could be 3-5 over spells where he's just told to bowl fast and get into them. It wouldn't be too onerous a workload, and I really think he'd add some balance to the team.
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Would have thought Plunkett was the ideal replacement however it’s a big squad with likes of Ball & Overton likely to do little more than carry drInks once the warm ups are done. Wood will be in the country and playing for Lions if they decide need more pace at short notice.
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I'm a bit concerned by our play in the warm up games. We already look a little bit flaky and it doesn't seem to be being spoke about but Cook is in shocking form at the moment.
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In these first 2 matches what I really wanted to see was runs for Stoneman, Vince and Malan, anything else is a bonus really. Those 3 need to believe that they deserve to be there and can deliver in the series, if they buy into the idea that they're out of their depth and we don't stand a chance then half the battle is lost before a ball is bowled. Cook and Root have the experience to be fine and I trust Bairstow to get the runs when it matters regardless of his form. Based on those expectations I think we should be reasonably happy with the 2 matches.
Bowling is where I have bigger concerns for the first test, With Stokes out and Ali looking 50/50 I think we look a bit thin. Hopefully Crane will have another decent performance and Overton or Ball can put a hand up in the next couple of days, I'll feel a lot happier if they do.
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Bowling is where I have bigger concerns for the first test, With Stokes out and Ali looking 50/50 I think we look a bit thin. Hopefully Crane will have another decent performance and Overton or Ball can put a hand up in the next couple of days, I'll feel a lot happier if they do.
Jake Ball has injured his ankle and is now also a doubt for the 1st Test
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Withdrawals from next round of Sheffield Shield games appears to confirm the Aussie pace attack for the 1st Test
http://www.espn.co.uk/cricket/story/_/id/21346333/australia-ashes-pace-attack-revealed
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Bowling is where I have bigger concerns for the first test, With Stokes out and Ali looking 50/50 I think we look a bit thin. Hopefully Crane will have another decent performance and Overton or Ball can put a hand up in the next couple of days, I'll feel a lot happier if they do.
Jake Ball has injured his ankle and is now also a doubt for the 1st Test
Yep, so Curran will get a chance next week now but our options at 4th seamer are getting rather thin. That said woakes and jimmy have had a good day and Crane and Overton haven't looked out of place. On top of that we look likely to take a decent lead into the 2nd innings which shows that high scores might be tough with the pink ball here.
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Jimmy is looking in great nick.
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I'm a bit concerned by our play in the warm up games. We already look a little bit flaky and it doesn't seem to be being spoke about but Cook is in shocking form at the moment.
That's the whole point of the warm up games, to hopefully get rid of the rustiness before the Ashes start.
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Bowling is where I have bigger concerns for the first test, With Stokes out and Ali looking 50/50 I think we look a bit thin. Hopefully Crane will have another decent performance and Overton or Ball can put a hand up in the next couple of days, I'll feel a lot happier if they do.
Jake Ball has injured his ankle and is now also a doubt for the 1st Test
Can't see him featuring anyway to be totally honest. With no Stokes, I think we'll go cautious and have six batsmen with Bairstow at seven and maybe just the four bowlers. Could wee see a side of Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root, Malan, Ballance, Bairstow, Ali, Woakes, Broad and Anderson?
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Bowling is where I have bigger concerns for the first test, With Stokes out and Ali looking 50/50 I think we look a bit thin. Hopefully Crane will have another decent performance and Overton or Ball can put a hand up in the next couple of days, I'll feel a lot happier if they do.
Jake Ball has injured his ankle and is now also a doubt for the 1st Test
Can't see him featuring anyway to be totally honest. With no Stokes, I think we'll go cautious and have six batsmen with Bairstow at seven and maybe just the four bowlers. Could wee see a side of Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root, Malan, Ballance, Bairstow, Ali, Woakes, Broad and Anderson?
I really hope that isn't the case. As much as Mo's bowling has come on, I think it is too much to expect him to be one of only 4 bowlers when Australia is usually a graveyard for visiting off spinners.
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Hmmm another pretty heavy collapse.
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Woakes is going well, Cricket Australia are 14-4 with Woakes having figures of 6-3-8-3
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Woakes is going well, Cricket Australia are 14-4 with Woakes having figures of 6-3-8-3
End of play today Cricket Australia recovered to 70-7 after being 25-7. Woakes figures now 10-4-17-4.
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Good to see Woakes getting into form.
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I think that Ellyse Perry might be a bit good at sport
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People over here have been making a little fuss over Graeme Swann suggesting the Australian batting lineup is among the weakest we've had in 20 years or so. Maybe fair enough if you compare it to what was around from, say, 1997 to 2009, but he must be forgetting some of the rubbish he got to bowl at.
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Bowling is where I have bigger concerns for the first test, With Stokes out and Ali looking 50/50 I think we look a bit thin. Hopefully Crane will have another decent performance and Overton or Ball can put a hand up in the next couple of days, I'll feel a lot happier if they do.
Jake Ball has injured his ankle and is now also a doubt for the 1st Test
Can't see him featuring anyway to be totally honest. With no Stokes, I think we'll go cautious and have six batsmen with Bairstow at seven and maybe just the four bowlers. Could wee see a side of Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root, Malan, Ballance, Bairstow, Ali, Woakes, Broad and Anderson?
I really hope that isn't the case. As much as Mo's bowling has come on, I think it is too much to expect him to be one of only 4 bowlers when Australia is usually a graveyard for visiting off spinners.
I'm just not sure there are any other real options now, unless we play a second spinner or someone like Overton plays. It just goes to show the difference that a genuine all-rounder like Stokes can make to the balanced of a side.
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Bowling is where I have bigger concerns for the first test, With Stokes out and Ali looking 50/50 I think we look a bit thin. Hopefully Crane will have another decent performance and Overton or Ball can put a hand up in the next couple of days, I'll feel a lot happier if they do.
Jake Ball has injured his ankle and is now also a doubt for the 1st Test
Can't see him featuring anyway to be totally honest. With no Stokes, I think we'll go cautious and have six batsmen with Bairstow at seven and maybe just the four bowlers. Could wee see a side of Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root, Malan, Ballance, Bairstow, Ali, Woakes, Broad and Anderson?
I really hope that isn't the case. As much as Mo's bowling has come on, I think it is too much to expect him to be one of only 4 bowlers when Australia is usually a graveyard for visiting off spinners.
I'm just not sure there are any other real options now, unless we play a second spinner or someone like Overton plays. It just goes to show the difference that a genuine all-rounder like Stokes can make to the balanced of a side.
Bairstow up to 6, Ali up to 7, Woakes up to 8 - they're all good enough to make those steps then bring in Overton or Curran to make a genuine 9 and 10 with Broad and Jimmy at 11. I think that's a much stronger side than anything you can make by pulling in an extra batsman because it would just be another one with a question mark over him.
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Thats the way I would go Paul.
Overton bowled well in the last match.
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Our window cleaner is heading out to watch the Brisbane and Adelaide tests. He must be doing alright...
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Really impressed with England's women's side batting out the day to draw the day night test. How many times have our men's side been in the same position and capitulated in the first session?
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Really impressed with England's women's side batting out the day to draw the day night test. How many times have our men's side been in the same position and capitulated in the first session?
Women's cricket in general has come on leaps and bounds over the last few years. It was an impressive effort to bat out 105 overs only losing 2 wickets.
I do think the Women's game lacks a bit of pace. Obviously the bowlers aren't going to be as quick as their male counterparts, so I think the organisers should consider shortening the pitches to something like 16-18 yards rather than the standard 22. Cricket is always a much more interesting game with pace.
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I've watched a little of this series and there's nothing wrong with the women's technique with the bat at all. The bowling can be inconsistent though, the women seem to struggle to bowl a consistent line and length.
The big difference is with the fielding and in particular the catching, they generally need to create 15 chances per innings to take 10 wickets.
Overall its definitely improving though and quite watchable.
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The schedule for the three Women's Ashes T20s is quite annoying. There is only one weekend game which starts at 0320 our time. Both the midweek games are day-nighters and start at the much more leisurely time of 0900. Why couldn't they have had two weekend games and had them all as day-nighters? Would have been able to watch a lot more, then.
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I've watched a little of this series and there's nothing wrong with the women's technique with the bat at all. The bowling can be inconsistent though, the women seem to struggle to bowl a consistent line and length.
The big difference is with the fielding and in particular the catching, they generally need to create 15 chances per innings to take 10 wickets.
Overall its definitely improving though and quite watchable.
Fielding is always the slowest skill to develop so there's no shock there. The problem with the bowling is that they have to go to variations to make things happen because they don't get the pace and bounce which is so effective in the mens game.
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My kids' school has got cricket on the timetable for girls for the first time ever next year. My eldest is looking forward to it as she's quite handy with a bat and ball.
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I've watched a little of this series and there's nothing wrong with the women's technique with the bat at all. The bowling can be inconsistent though, the women seem to struggle to bowl a consistent line and length.
The big difference is with the fielding and in particular the catching, they generally need to create 15 chances per innings to take 10 wickets.
Overall its definitely improving though and quite watchable.
Fielding is always the slowest skill to develop so there's no shock there. The problem with the bowling is that they have to go to variations to make things happen because they don't get the pace and bounce which is so effective in the mens game.
That's my thought process in thinking that a smaller pitch would be beneficial to the womens game.
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I've watched a little of this series and there's nothing wrong with the women's technique with the bat at all. The bowling can be inconsistent though, the women seem to struggle to bowl a consistent line and length.
The big difference is with the fielding and in particular the catching, they generally need to create 15 chances per innings to take 10 wickets.
Overall its definitely improving though and quite watchable.
Fielding is always the slowest skill to develop so there's no shock there. The problem with the bowling is that they have to go to variations to make things happen because they don't get the pace and bounce which is so effective in the mens game.
That's my thought process in thinking that a smaller pitch would be beneficial to the womens game.
You might be right but I think a lot of people would have a problem with it in some misplaced sexism accusation.
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I've watched a little of this series and there's nothing wrong with the women's technique with the bat at all. The bowling can be inconsistent though, the women seem to struggle to bowl a consistent line and length.
The big difference is with the fielding and in particular the catching, they generally need to create 15 chances per innings to take 10 wickets.
Overall its definitely improving though and quite watchable.
Fielding is always the slowest skill to develop so there's no shock there. The problem with the bowling is that they have to go to variations to make things happen because they don't get the pace and bounce which is so effective in the mens game.
That's my thought process in thinking that a smaller pitch would be beneficial to the womens game.
You might be right but I think a lot of people would have a problem with it in some misplaced sexism accusation.
Unfortunately so.
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Woakes took 6-54 this morning, good stuff.
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Woakes took 6-54 this morning, good stuff.
Moeen bowled 16 overs which is also good news. We have been hampered by injuries already on this tour so it's good to see him back bowling.
Bairstow was off for an hour after bruising a finger but was back behind the stumps later in the day.
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Heading out to Brisbane next Monday, feeling a little more confident than i was a week ago..
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We dropped three catches apparently. We really need to make sure our catching is bang on come the Ashes. Good to see Woakes in the wickets, but is anyone concerned by Broad's form? He wasn't great in the summer and that appears to be continuing.
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Heading out to Brisbane next Monday, feeling a little more confident than i was a week ago..
The Olbiyun twat that works for me goes on Saturday but has 3 days in Singapore before going on to Brisbane. He is there for the first two tests.
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We dropped three catches apparently. We really need to make sure our catching is bang on come the Ashes. Good to see Woakes in the wickets, but is anyone concerned by Broad's form? He wasn't great in the summer and that appears to be continuing.
Broad cleaned up the final wicket early on day 2 which is good. The other defence I'll offer is that, if he was going at 4+ and not getting wickets I'd be worried but right now he does give us some control of the scoreboard which allows someone like Woakes to be a little more expensive by being really aggressive in spells, it's why I always thought people were unfairly critical of Bresnan as well.
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Good to see most of the batsmen getting some runs, particularly Cook.
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Good to see most of the batsmen getting some runs, particularly Cook.
Yes a good confidence booster for the them before the ashes. Cook, Stoneman, Root and Malan all in the runs.
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Talking about women’s cricket remember that game is in its infancy. In time popularity will lead to greater participation and natural selection will prevail with better athletes coming through that will lead to eliminating most of the current short comings.
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The Australian lineup for the first test has reportedly been leaked, and there's been a couple of odd decisions - Shaun Marsh in for Maxwell, and perhaps more bafflingly, Tim Paine pretty much out of the cold in to replace Wade as keeper.
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The Australian lineup for the first test has reportedly been leaked, and there's been a couple of odd decisions - Shaun Marsh in for Maxwell, and perhaps more bafflingly, Tim Paine pretty much out of the cold in to replace Wade as keeper.
Shaun Marsh is an enigma but has the technique to score runs at Test level and Paine would have been the keeper for the last 3 years Atleast had it not been for injury. They've treated Peter Nevill like shit though, is Renshaw in?
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I hope that causes unrest within their squad and journos further inflame it by criticising ACB.
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The Australian lineup for the first test has reportedly been leaked, and there's been a couple of odd decisions - Shaun Marsh in for Maxwell, and perhaps more bafflingly, Tim Paine pretty much out of the cold in to replace Wade as keeper.
Shaun Marsh is an enigma but has the technique to score runs at Test level and Paine would have been the keeper for the last 3 years Atleast had it not been for injury. They've treated Peter Nevill like shit though, is Renshaw in?
Renshaw out - kinda harsh on him, but he's had a slow start to the season whereas Bancroft has been in sensational form.
Marsh doesn't make sense on any level though - not the incumbent, not in any better form, much older, doesn't bowl, inferior fielder, as much of a boom-bust player as Maxwell.
EDIT: I should say, this could still all be total bollocks, everyone's just really antsy, I suppose.
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Warm up game going well even if the standard of opposition is questionable. It is obviously a long series, but I'm just increasingly getting the feeling that the first innings of the first test could be crucial in determining what follows.
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It's good that Stoneman and Malan have centuries to their name now. I think the Aussie squad selection is interesting, for all the talk of England's squad they seem to have pushed the panic button a bit with their batting.
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I'd drop Broad. He's a passenger these days.
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That's a pretty horrible last day from the bowlers. I appreciate it's a flat pitch but still it's not a great boost to the confidence.
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I'd drop Broad. He's a passenger these days.
Broad can hold up an end whilst not conceding many runs thus allowing other bowlers to attack more. He's an important part of our bowling unit.
Our successful Ashes campaigns have had a workhorse bowler. Hoggard in 2005, Bresnan in 2010/11 are prime examples. Broad has enough experience & know how to frustrate a batsman until they make a mistake. He's not immune to being dropped but he's enough credit for the time being.
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Overton's bowling in this game has made the selection decision between him and Ball interesting. He has not bowled well at all, the thing in his favour generally is he's a better bat. But his performance has opened that decision again.
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I'd go with Overton personally because I think the tail is just too long if you have Ball in there.
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I don't disagree in principle but we're in no position to carry a bowler whoever plays.
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I'm as pessimistic about our chances going into an Ashes series as I've been for 15 years if I'm honest. I dont think we'll score the runs required and our attack looks weak without Stokes to back up Anderson and Broad. Personally I think we'll get hammered again.
The only thing that gives me any optimism is the fact that this Aussie side really isn't all that, certainly as weak a batting line up as they've had in years. But home advantage and their pace attack will be too strong for us. 4-0 Australia.
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I'm as pessimistic about our chances going into an Ashes series as I've been for 15 years if I'm honest. I dont think we'll score the runs required and our attack looks weak without Stokes to back up Anderson and Broad. Personally I think we'll get hammered again.
The only thing that gives me any optimism is the fact that this Aussie side really isn't all that, certainly as weak a batting line up as they've had in years. But home advantage and their pace attack will be too strong for us. 4-0 Australia.
Why ignore Woakes, he's a better bowler than Stokes and Broad?
I honestly don't know how this series will go, I think both teams are in a fragile place and 1 poor innings could make or break either but I think their batting is every bit as weak as ours and whilst they have more pace in their attack I don't think they're as accurate as you need at this level. I think we'll see lots of 300-400 scores and all the tests will be decided by 1-2 key sessions.
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There's a lot to like about Woakes, he's a Villa fan, plays for the Bears and is a very handy cricketer. But he's not a match winner like Ben Stokes is and he doesn't have the aura and the match winning spells that Stuart Broad does.
Imho, if Stokes and Mark Wood had been available Woakes doesn't make the starting eleven.
Hope I'm proved wrong ofcourse.
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There's a lot to like about Woakes, he's a Villa fan, plays for the Bears and is a very handy cricketer. But he's not a match winner like Ben Stokes is and he doesn't have the aura and the match winning spells that Stuart Broad does.
Imho, if Stokes and Mark Wood had been available Woakes doesn't make the starting eleven.
Hope I'm proved wrong ofcourse.
I think you probably are wrong. Before his injury he was a regular plus he is much handier with the bat than Wood.
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In the 12 months before his injury Woakes was easily our best fast bowler and one of the best in the world. He's an important part of the attack and lower middle order.
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Woakes has a better strike rate, better economy and better average than Stokes or Wood and, after 18 tests, he's already bowled a few of those spells you're saying he's incapable of. He's not got the aggression of Stokes but he's every bit as important to our team.
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My selection for Brisbane:
http://bbc.in/2zjE7WT
Cook
Stoneman
Malan
Root
Vince
Moeen
Bairstow
Woakes
Anderson
Broad
Curran
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Woakes has a better strike rate, better economy and better average than Stokes or Wood and, after 18 tests, he's already bowled a few of those spells you're saying he's incapable of. He's not got the aggression of Stokes but he's every bit as important to our team.
I like Woakes and he's become really important but Stokes is a more vital balancing part of the side. He's probably the best all rounder in the world. That is not diminishing Woakes importance as a player, but Stokes is talismanic.
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And my point with Wood is about pace. This is the area where we'll fall short. Previous records against the like of Pakistan means nothing when your playing at the Gabba which has more pace ans bounce than anywhere else. Horses for courses and all that. If they were available both Stokes and Wood would be playing IMO.
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I'd have Woakes in front of Wood, but I'd have Wood in front of Ball or Overton.
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Cook
Stoneman
Vince
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Moeen
Woakes
Anderson
Broad
Crane
This would be my team........My choice of picking Crane is that both Overton/Ball have failed to impress in the warm up games and everytime Crane has played he has got wickets and the 4th choice seamer would only bowl about 10/15 overs in a day
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I wouldn't play a second spinner unless it was an absolute dust bowl and even then I'm not sure I would.
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I personally think a fourth seamer is going to be necessary in Australia and another spinner a luxury.
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Not long now. Don’t think it will be 5.0. I sense a team up for it.
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Woakes has a better strike rate, better economy and better average than Stokes or Wood and, after 18 tests, he's already bowled a few of those spells you're saying he's incapable of. He's not got the aggression of Stokes but he's every bit as important to our team.
Yep, Woakes is a starter in the side, especially as his batting is strong. I can see the reasoning to include Wood on Australian pitches, but I think he would be competing against abroad and Anderson for a spot.
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Cook
Stoneman
Vince
Root
Malan
Bairstow
Moeen
Woakes
Anderson
Broad
Crane
This would be my team........My choice of picking Crane is that both Overton/Ball have failed to impress in the warm up games and everytime Crane has played he has got wickets and the 4th choice seamer would only bowl about 10/15 overs in a day
Anderson at nine means a longish tail. Broad's batting has deteriorated severely over the years, so as someone mentioned above, I can see them going with Overton at nine simply because he can offer something with the bat.
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We're about an hour north of Brisbane and it's been chucking it down here since Saturday. The forecast for the Test is fine but it wont be as hot as it normally is (25c-27C) with the odd shower around so there should be plenty of moisture in the pitch for the bowlers, especially on day one.
They'll be no reverse and probably not the heat to open up any cracks as the test wears on. So losing the toss wont be a disaster as I dont see the wicket deteriorating like say it might in Adelaide on days 4 and 5. It might even be one of those rare occasions where, if it looks a bit green, you put the opposition in and as the best batting conditions would be days 2 and 3.
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http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/cricket/david-warner-injured-at-ashes-training-trying-to-take-a-catch/news-story/0b72dd22084095da699f27dcb3e8ac8b
Nothing trivial I hope....
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I see Lyon and Hazlewood have been spouting off. It's very strange because surely when you do this it just provides ammunition and even more incentive to us.
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I see Lyon and Hazlewood have been spouting off. It's very strange because surely when you do this it just provides ammunition and even more incentive to us.
I'd agree with that, but on the flip side perhaps it shows how comfortable Australia feel? It's not as if they have to worry about a couple of rapid fast bowlers who they will have incensed
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England Women gave themselves a great chance with a massive stand (a 100 and a 50) that left us needing 12 from the last 3 overs but we then lost both wickets in the space of 5 balls. They've been training with the men I suspect.
That said they have nudged along to needing 2 for the win from the final 7.
EDIT - and they did it in 1 with a 4 to end the 19th over.
Congratulations ladies.
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Very good that was along with some dodgy Aussie fielding.
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No point in having a drawn series. Tell the Aussie cowardesses that we want a decider.
Obviously this doesn't apply to the men's series, as England are the holders...
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I see Lyon and Hazlewood have been spouting off. It's very strange because surely when you do this it just provides ammunition and even more incentive to us.
If you have to speak from the gutter, as I believe Lyon has with his talk of ending careers, then you have lost the moral ground before a ball has been bowled.
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Just over 48 hours till the Ashes start, I see it's only on BT and can't see any highlights on terrestrial TV. When cricket needs a boost as many teams are struggling to field teams where I live it's a shame the test series won't be open to a wider audience.
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Over in Brisbane, every Aussie we have met has been typically loud mouthed and brash, weather isn’t great here so there will be rain delays, if conditions today are replicated in the morning then England definitely want to bowl first.
Cant wait for it, need to shove their words down their throats.
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Ball ahead of Overton then.
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Ball ahead of Overton then.
Yep, which I suppose could be viewed as a positive selection. Probably means Broad batting at 9 though and I'm sure the Australian quicks will target him.
Really looking forward to it now and as I said in an earlier post, the first innings of this game could really set the tone for the rest of the series.
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Over in Brisbane, every Aussie we have met has been typically loud mouthed and brash, weather isn’t great here so there will be rain delays, if conditions today are replicated in the morning then England definitely want to bowl first.
Cant wait for it, need to shove their words down their throats.
Imagine living here. Their capacity for brashness laced with lashings of hypocracy is phenomenal on these occasions.
Their complete amnesia regards David Warner's unprovocked punching of Joe Root whilst demanding Ben Stokes miss the entire tour regardless of whether charges are laid being example A.
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Ball ahead of Overton then.
Yep, which I suppose could be viewed as a positive selection. Probably means Broad batting at 9 though and I'm sure the Australian quicks will target him.
Really looking forward to it now and as I said in an earlier post, the first innings of this game could really set the tone for the rest of the series.
The first ball set the tone in 2006/7
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I am predicting 2-1 either way. Their batting looks shit.
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We need a strong first day.
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If the weather is as suggested I would put them in if we get chance.
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What we need to ensure is that our bowling is disciplined. We cannot give them an inch and if we do that I'm convinced they'll buckle.
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I am predicting 2-1 either way. Their batting looks shit.
I wouldn't bet against that, I don't think either squad is in a good place right now.
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Well the time is fast approaching to stuff their words back up their proverbial ..... It is very important that England manage the first day whether they bat or bowl as that will set the tone for the rest of the series. If Aussies bat make sure they are 7 or more down by close of play preferably all gone. If England bat make sure Aussies are not batting before stumps.
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Was in Oz for the 1994/5 Ashes. It’s hard to explain how big it is over there. It’s all everybody talks about. All the TV product ads were specially made about the Ashes and beating us. It’s like the World Cup with bells on. There were SO many England fans there that series that the trains, greyhound coaches and internal flights were log jammed. It was great. Sydney morning news reckoned that there was half a million young Brits in Oz in December 94
Anyhow....”even ‘your’ queen wants us to win..”
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All out to win at the Gabba at all costs. And the series would be ours.
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What we need to ensure is that our bowling is disciplined. We cannot give them an inch and if we do that I'm convinced they'll buckle.
Yep. They need to be switched on 100% , 100% all of the time.
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Over in Brisbane, every Aussie we have met has been typically loud mouthed and brash, weather isn’t great here so there will be rain delays, if conditions today are replicated in the morning then England definitely want to bowl first.
Cant wait for it, need to shove their words down their throats.
Spent quite a while in 0z 94 to 95. Was in Brisbane for about 3 weeks on the West End. I found it an odd place. A big city but quite a tame and limited night life. Is it still the same? Although had a very memorable night when a lovely fit young lady and I jumped the fence into a newly opened artificial beach and pool complex on the south bank about 3am (still 29 degrees) and went skinny dipping until chased out by a very angry rotund security guard. Happy days.
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Mornin' Richie, mornin' everybody.
I think I've lost touch big time with cricket these days. Was the last time we were in Oz really the 5-0? I thought we'd been over there since then, we seem to play them every year and a half or so. A few names in the England squad I've never seen play (Stoneman, Malan, Overton), but looking at our bowling attack, I think it's too pop-gun for Aussie pitches, at least traditional ones - although I know they are fond of drop-ins now because they share the grounds with those guys with mullets wearing wife-beaters. And with a fair few Ashes rookies in there I can see us being skittled a lot unless Cook scores big. It still seems to be Cook scores big, we score big; Cook fails, we collapse.
A Hampshire-supporting friend of mine was willing to bet me any money that Vince will be top scorer in the series, but I think that's cloud cuckoo land!
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Tream s? Kodjia is being unpredictable. Usual story.
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Awful time to lose a wicket after a good partnership
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Bollocks terrible blow.
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That was fucking idiotic beyond belief from Vince, never a run in that in a million years. He's played so well and looked so untroubled. We've just completely gifted them an opening. I can potentially see this going downhill fast
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Momentum swinging to the big mouthed blokes with shit facial hair. Very nervy ending to the day, what started so well is in danger of evaporating.
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That was fucking idiotic beyond belief from Vince, never a run in that in a million years. He's played so well and looked so untroubled. We've just completely gifted them an opening. I can potentially see this going downhill fast
Indeed, Root's gone now
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We need to counter attack now, it was fine when Vince and Stoneham were going but we're going nowhere and we're losing wickets. We need to put the pressure back on them.
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We need to counter attack now, it was fine when Vince and Stoneham were going but we're going nowhere and we're losing wickets. We need to put the pressure back on them.
We are effectively 8 down given what their pace attack will do to our tail. Just really Bairstow left that can cause them problems. I'm not sure a quick couple of boundaries from Moeen followed by him chucking his wicket away will help us much. I'd rather see us still 4 down at the end of the day, even if we only add a handful more runs.
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To only manage 196 in a day is pretty slow going these days. The game is really finely balanced now and I just worry that without Stokes our lower order looks a little fragile. That said, if Ali and Malan can build a good partnership tomorrow and get us up to around 300 then we should be in a decent position.
It is a positive that the batsmen who had doubts over them scored some runs today.
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In fairness, it wasn't 196 "in a day" as there wasn't a full day's play. Still slow going, admittedly. We had picked up the speed in the last half and hour or so. Hopefully the run rate will improve further if Moeen hangs around.
Really need the middle/tail order to score well. 350 will give us a chance. 250 and we are already staring into the abyss.
At least it starts half an hour earlier tonight.
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Honours are just about even after the first days play. Usually in an Ashes series the side that is on top after the first day are the ones who hit the ground running. Now for our misfiring batting line up to score well without Cook & Root contributing is a positive thing and sets us up well for the series.
Did anyone else thing there was a hell of a lot of turn in the pitch for day one of a test?
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Over in Brisbane, every Aussie we have met has been typically loud mouthed and brash, weather isn’t great here so there will be rain delays, if conditions today are replicated in the morning then England definitely want to bowl first.
Cant wait for it, need to shove their words down their throats.
Spent quite a while in 0z 94 to 95. Was in Brisbane for about 3 weeks on the West End. I found it an odd place. A big city but quite a tame and limited night life. Is it still the same? Although had a very memorable night when a lovely fit young lady and I jumped the fence into a newly opened artificial beach and pool complex on the south bank about 3am (still 29 degrees) and went skinny dipping until chased out by a very angry rotund security guard. Happy days.
From what I’ve seen so far, there’s plenty of nightlife, Southside is good, Riverside massively overpriced and full of idiots, been trying to avoid anywhere with a lot of England fans as well there’s and element of England football here, actually had a few choruses of “10 German Bombers” today.
As for the cricket, Australia have a slight advantage, they have a new ball in the morning , Ali and Malan have to survive the first hour or we are in trouble.
Finally..”The Gabbatoir”? They were doing Mexican waves! I have coughed things up that were scarier than that place today.
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I don't really think it's even more 60/40 weighted in favour of the Aussies. A lot is resting on the two batsmen at the crease at the moment. If one of them goes cheaply tomorrow morning, then I think we'll struggle to get towards 300. There's always the possibility of a Moeen slog though I suppose, if wickets start to fall quickly.
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I don't really think it's even more 60/40 weighted in favour of the Aussies. A lot is resting on the two batsmen at the crease at the moment. If one of them goes cheaply tomorrow morning, then I think we'll struggle to get towards 300. There's always the possibility of a Moeen slog though I suppose, if wickets start to fall quickly.
There are still Barstow and Woakes to come. I think it depends on how we deal with the new ball. Negotiate that, continue with the positive approach and we can post a competitive score. It also looks like a good toss to have won, Moeen could have a field day in the 4th innings.
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I think it's pretty even. Looking at both teams it's hard to see many games where the first innings is much beyond 300 if all the pitches play like this. With the current pair and Bairstow and Woakes to come I think we're a decent bet for that, The scoring rate is pretty slow but that's ok because today was all about showing that we're not the sacrificial lamb that some were suggesting. I think tomorrow could be the key day for this one, if we see off the new ball with a bit of flair we'll go into their innings much more confident than we might have been.
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Funny day really, could've been better, could've been much worse. The main thing from an England point of view was the confidence it'll give Stoneman, Vince and Malan that they do belong in the Ashes Test arena.
It's one of those often used phrases in Cricket to say the next session is vital but with the game so evenly balanced tomoorow mornings session is massive in the context of this game, maybe even the series.
I think I'd have taken 196-4 at the start of play though.
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Agreed OzVilla. I was going to say more or less what you have said. This is very good start for England I think and the 3 new guys will take immense confidence from it.
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Funny day really, could've been better, could've been much worse. The main thing from an England point of view was the confidence it'll give Stoneman, Vince and Malan that they do belong in the Ashes Test arena.
It's one of those often used phrases in Cricket to say the next session is vital but with the game so evenly balanced tomoorow mornings session is massive in the context of this game, maybe even the series.
I think I'd have taken 196-4 at the start of play though.
Probably 1 wicket too many to be entirely satisfactory. 196-3 would have been a bit more comfortable as would 250-4.
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did anyone watch the BT coverage ? I saw a bit and thought it was bland, may be I am missing Bumble, Holding, Gower etc...
196/4...I would of took that before play started, need to bat until at least tea tomorrow :)
UTV
The Doc
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did anyone watch the BT coverage ? I saw a bit and thought it was bland, may be I am missing Bumble, Holding, Gower etc...
196/4...I would of took that before play started, need to bat until at least tea tomorrow :)
UTV
The Doc
Who have they got in the team? I didn't even realise they'd got the rights for it until it was mentioned here the other day.
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did anyone watch the BT coverage ? I saw a bit and thought it was bland, may be I am missing Bumble, Holding, Gower etc...
196/4...I would of took that before play started, need to bat until at least tea tomorrow :)
UTV
The Doc
Who have they got in the team? I didn't even realise they'd got the rights for it until it was mentioned here the other day.
Found it, mostly a TMS setup with a few extra aussies and a specialist presenter:
Matt Smith
Alison Mitchell
Vaughan
Boycott
Swann
Ponting
Fleming
Glichrist
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I think Moeen and Malan did really well at the end, the counter attack is vital. It's really hard to work out what a good score is on this pitch, because it started to speed up and turn but no idea whether it'll flatten out.
It would also be good to keep Starc, Hazlewood and Cummins out there as I think they'll struggle with the bowling workload.
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I fell asleep before it started so watched the highlights, Boycott pointed out it was proper Test cricket with a good battle between bowler and batsman, made a welcome change from seeing every other delivery flying to the boundary, proper cricket!
I wish Graeme Swann wasn't allowed anywhere near a commentary box.
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I would have taken that at the start of the day. 350 Looks a decent total on that wicket so seeing off the new ball in the first hour will be vital.
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Starts 1/2 hour earlier tonight at 11.30
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Just enough time to catch up on some TV recordings on my box then. I am attempting to go straight through tonight watching it again so will be fucked tomorrow!
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Anyone know how to watch the highlights without being a BT customer? I'd love a PM if poss. Apologies if this contravenes any rules and regs!
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Have Channel 5 got any highlights? Most of their usual presenters are on BT.
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BT sport online have got free highlights! Woop di woooooop, short video but better than nothing
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Right England please be batting when I wake up.
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BT sport online have got free highlights! Woop di woooooop, short video but better than nothing
Eight whole minutes. Thanks a million BT. How have the ECB agreed to this?
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Scoring rate is still a bit low but that's a sid first half hour, Mo gave them a sniff playing at a wide one but otherwise it's mature and watchful. Lyon is the key man, if can punish him a little then Cummins in particular doesn't look like he can handle a huge workload.
Back to the coverage, Alison Mitchell really is superb (and soon belongs on another thread here), it's a masterstroke to give her a big part in the commentary team.
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Starc off with a cut knee, will be interesting to see if that bothers him when he has to bowl later.
Not much in this for the quicks, Lyon bowling lovely but not threatening really. A point Swann is eager to make right now.
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Here comes the inevitable pathetic collapse.
Malan had played too well and worked too hard to give his wicket away like that.
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And this is where we'll really miss Stokes as we are now a batsman light. That's a pretty loose shot early on from Woakes
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Bairstow needs to be aggressive now. Every chance Broad, Anderson and Ball will be out in a handful of balls.
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302 all out. Again could've been worse but also could've been much better. Gave a few wickets away today. Ominous for the tail the way the Aussies bounced them out, they'll be getting lots of short stuff on this tour.
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76 for 3 @ Tea - Warner, Bancroft and Khawaja gone and a wicket each for Ball, Ali and Broad
We need to get Smith out ASAP
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76 for 4.............Jimmy gets Handscomb straight after Tea
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That was a hell of a collapse earlier. We need to break this partnership or it'll get away from us.
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Come on England we need a bloody wicket.
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We've lost some imagination here.
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The advantage of nocturnal cricket is the element of the unknown, with hours of cricket passing you by. I woke at 4.20 and switched on the radio just in time to hear Warner go, with Boycott laughing like a drain. Although that impetous has gone it was a delight, as was the 20 minute drive to work with Agnew and the Yorkshire Red.
It may be Australia in the driving seat at the close of play, our bowling has gone very flat.
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This reminds me of last series, with the exception of us getting a few runs. We had them on the wrack with the ball and they've got off the hook and I wouldn't be surprised to wake up tomorrow and find us around 200 behind.
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If we don’t get Smith out soon, think they’ll get a big score and then skittle us out cheaply. Our tail just has very little.
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We need to hit them hard in the morning and nick a couple off in first hour. Our problem is our collapse left us 50-75 runs short of what we should have got.
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18 overs to the new ball equals say 60 runs - would be great if we can get at least one before taking it and really pressure Paine and their tail then - two before then could put us in a place to get a lead which would be vital in a low-scoring game.
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A disappointing day in the end but still wellin it. As others have said need to target Smith.
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A disappointing day in the end but still wellin it. As others have said need to target Smith.
That's pretty much as I see it. Those Kookaburra balls are great for the first 15 overs or so then they just lose all life and do absolutely nothing. This is where we miss a bowler like Hoggard or Bresnan; someone who can hold an end up and bowl plenty of overs for not many runs. Michael Vaughan referred to Hoggard as a factory floor sweeper which is good comparison.
We need to strangle their scoring in the morning and try and induce mistakes and get the new ball around lunchtime. If we don't we will be too far behind by stumps on day three.
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We need to hit them hard in the morning and nick a couple off in first hour. Our problem is our collapse left us 50-75 runs short of what we should have got.
Agree Paul and the game is moving along quite quickly. A few poor sessions tomorrow and we could be in trouble.
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We need to hit them hard in the morning and nick a couple off in first hour. Our problem is our collapse left us 50-75 runs short of what we should have got.
Agree Paul and the game is moving along quite quickly. A few poor sessions tomorrow and we could be in trouble.
In fairness you could say exactly the same about Australia.
Our problem is if it's not Broad or Anderson we'll struggle. Neither Ball or Woakes were consistant enough today to build pressure which is where they got away in the last session. We really need that bowler who can slip themselves to that 145+ kph or just have that variation, left arm over or skiddy action. Our first change bowlers are a bit too predictable with a Kookaburra on Aussie pitches. 137-142 kph won't cut it if you've no variation, batsmen can just line you up over here.
Still everything to play for tomorrow, forecast is showers around for the rest of the match. I'd bite your hand off for a draw.
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Alison Mitchell really is superb (and soon belongs on another thread here), it's a masterstroke to give her a big part in the commentary team.
I don't quite know what she brings to the commentary team, when she was on with Adam Gilchrist he was excellent, offering a lot of insight, whereas she just seemed to state the bleeding obvious, "It's gone for 4" etc or occasionally a "Will it make to the boundary?". Rather her than Swann though.
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They're in front without a doubt but a couple of quick wickets can change everything. Right now I'd take being within 20-30 of them after first innings.
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Alison Mitchell really is superb (and soon belongs on another thread here), it's a masterstroke to give her a big part in the commentary team.
I don't quite know what she brings to the commentary team, when she was on with Adam Gilchrist he was excellent, offering a lot of insight, whereas she just seemed to state the bleeding obvious, "It's gone for 4" etc or occasionally a "Will it make to the boundary?". Rather her than Swann though.
Swann thinks he's the court jester but in reality he's a complete knob. His attempts at West Indian accents on TMS in the summer were puerile and from the Jim Davidson school of unacceptable "comedy accents".
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Heard him attempt a Yorkshire accent at one stage, I just find myself swearing at the TV when he's on. Bet him and Vaughan have terrific 'bants'.
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I think with Smith the way to deal with him is to try and nullify his scoring. I don't think going aggressive or attacking at him works, but if you stop him scoring I think it might force something rash.
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Great days cricket, ebbed and flowed and ultimately Australia came out on top at the close. Talked to a lot of Aussies tonight and none are being over confident, Smith is key, get him early tomorrow and we are on top, problem is that last session Smith and Marsh looked very comfortable and there’s still nearly 30 overs until the new ball.
Absolutely loving Brisbane, went to Rugby Union WC semi tonight, Oz v fiji, an absolute massacre, hopefully not an omen for test.
Ps, weather forecast here suggests there will be a lot of rain delays tomorrow
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I think with Smith the way to deal with him is to try and nullify his scoring. I don't think going aggressive or attacking at him works, but if you stop him scoring I think it might force something rash.
I agree, a similar approach to that taken by Lyon in the first hour yesterday. For me Smith is another player who likes feeling bat on ball so a spell of making him go after it might be a good idea.
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Heard him attempt a Yorkshire accent at one stage, I just find myself swearing at the TV when he's on. Bet him and Vaughan have terrific 'bants'.
Christ I heard that, just awful. He continues to talk through the deliveries as well demonstrating how clueless he is about broadcasting.
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Heard him attempt a Yorkshire accent at one stage, I just find myself swearing at the TV when he's on. Bet him and Vaughan have terrific 'bants'.
Christ I heard that, just awful. He continues to talk through the deliveries as well demonstrating how clueless he is about broadcasting.
I don’t like him anymore than you chaps but he did raise an interesting observation about Lyons bowling in his first stint on air last night, and how the lack of an arm ball actually stops him bowling many deliveries that are hitting the stumps so he eliminates bowled and lbw as modes of dismissal. Lyon changed attack later so whether coincidence or someone in the Aussie camp was listening we’ll probably not know but I thought it was a creditable point of note as an ex off-spinner commenting on another. He also demonstrated how he changed his action to deliver a straight on ball - the volume and nature of the wickets he got demonstrate he does know his trade at least
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If he could stick to comments such as the above he'd be great but unfortunately I no longer hear what he's saying as he's too busy being the 'joker' and working on his club act.
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If he could stick to comments such as the above he'd be great but unfortunately I no longer hear what he's saying as he's too busy being the 'joker' and working on his club act.
Absolutely. He's too interested in the 'bantz' most of the time. On top of that I think he overplayed the thing about lyons bowling, he just went on for too long.
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Get Smith out.... repeat ......
Am going 2nd over. Fingers crossed.
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If he could stick to comments such as the above he'd be great but unfortunately I no longer hear what he's saying as he's too busy being the 'joker' and working on his club act.
Absolutely. He's too interested in the 'bantz' most of the time. On top of that I think he overplayed the thing about lyons bowling, he just went on for too long.
Maybe - but I’d still like give him credit for an observation no one else came up with including former international captains
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Not much happening in first few overs.
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You know that feeling watching England when you know we're not going to get a wicket, that's the feeling I'm getting.
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This is the best day to be batting, looks like a bit more carry. We just need to keep the shackles on as much as possible until the new ball. Ball and Woakes need to be more consistant today.
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Marsh gone. Looked like it stopped on him a bit.
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Slow ball to Marsh. ( from commentary on the wireless) Gone.
Now to take them apart.
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That was very good from Broad. He “worked” him out.
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OzVilla. Whereabouts on the Sunshine Coast are you ? Spent a few great weekends in Mooloolaba in May 95.
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Come on Chris
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Happy to jinx that, right come on England another before the new ball.
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Boycott now commentating on the radio. Legend.
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OzVilla. Whereabouts on the Sunshine Coast are you ? Spent a few great weekends in Mooloolaba in May 95.
I'm in Caloundra about 20 mins down the coast from Mooloolaba. Lovely spot Mooloolaba, it's changed a bit since 95 too I'd bet.
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Fuck in hell Jake this is a Test Match...
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Jeez that was unlucky Smith could have gone.
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Feck nearly had Smith then.
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OzVilla. Whereabouts on the Sunshine Coast are you ? Spent a few great weekends in Mooloolaba in May 95.
I'm in Caloundra about 20 mins down the coast from Mooloolaba. Lovely spot Mooloolaba, it's changed a bit since 95 too I'd bet.
Went to Caloundra to get a new exhaust from a tiny garage on the way up north for our 1977 Ford Falcon estate. fMooloolaba was great. It was like the perfect idle of an Aussie coast village. The locals took us into the surf / community club. And there was also a few lively bars. We were always the only non locals. No backpackers there then
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Ball is wasting effort here with a few wild deliveries
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Yes place a man at “silly” point and Ball bowls it legside☹️
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Oh yes yes
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Lovely delivery to get Paine. Jimmy really is a trump card for us. Really well taken by Bairstow as well.
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And now Starc gone
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Now treat these 3 as a proper tail and skittle them.
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Excellent from Broad. Wry smile after the 6 then off you pop son.
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I think Starc looked very scared after pushing that ball for 6. A bit ike what have I done look.
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Put the tail on the BBQ
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Straight after lunch and we start with Ball and Woakes.
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And they now trail by 50 as Broad and Anderson finally appear. Ball, Moen and Woakes just lacked penetration in this session. Subsequently this game has drifted away from England.
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Superb hundred from Smith, 261 balls, 415 mins. Really worked hard for that. They'll open up and play some shots now. We're very flat.
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Cummins gone finally, Woakes gets one at last. Thank feck for that. Aus trail by 27.
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Convicts finally all out for 328 and lead by 26
Smith 141 not out
So pretty even, we need to bat well now and need big innings from Cook and Root
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Not from Cook. The test will be decided in the passage of play between now & stumps.
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Well done Cook. When the going gets tough, the idiot tries a desperately poor shot.
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Great days Cricket with Australia just ahead now.
England did fantastically in the first session and although they didn't bowl badly Moen, Ball and Woakes let the pressure off after lunch and lacked penetration. Nathan Lyon's 2nd ball spun more than Moen did all day and Starc, Hazelwood and Cummins all bowled faster than any English bowler. That'll be the difference, their attack doesn't let up while ours is tidy but just wasnt that threatening enough once Broad and Anderson and the new ball had been seen off.
Stoneman and Root did really well in that last 45 mins, that looked a horrible session to have to bat in, we'll need that kind of fight all day tomorrow.
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Sigh. You just knew we'd England this up somehow. Should have scored more, should have got them out for less and now looking at a defeat. I have a feeling that the target we set may not even be 3 figures. I also have a feeling that throughout the whole series we will not see Smith lose his wicket more than a couple of times. This is why I rate Ashes 2010/11 above 2005 - it's rare enough that England play at half their potential down under and we probably won't see England smash Australia like that for another generation (assuming test cricket is still going in 30 years). 1st innings scores being more or less the same is not an "evenly poised" match for England in Australia, given how England usually completely fold in their second innings over here, it's very much England staring down the barrel.
BTW is Anderson injured? He hurt his side in the morning session, and side injuries are not a good sign for fast bowlers.
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Is Stokes excluded from the whole tour? We could really do with him, arguably he looks like the difference between the teams.
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Is Stokes excluded from the whole tour? We could really do with him, arguably he looks like the difference between the teams.
Apparently the ECB are waiting for the police to investigate and take any action first, and then they'll decide on what internal disciplinary action to take. Who knows how ling that might take. I doubt he'll make over, but if the police finish their investigation quickly, don't press charges, and the series is still alive when they do, let's see how pragmatic the ECB are ...
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That was a promising day turned to shit.
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Smith played brilliantly, showed the English batsmen how to do it, that last session today was crucial, we couldn’t win the test today, but we may well have lost it, for the first time in 3 days, the Gabba felt like a bear put in that final session.
Tomorrow morning is the time for someone to make themselves a hero.
Cooks dismissal was really frustrating, after seeing how Smith hated, he chased a short one.
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Very important first session tonight as that will decide decide the winner or loser of this test match.
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Well that's a bit of a nightmare, but fairplay to Root and Stoneman. We badly let them off the hook when they were 200 odd for 7. We're going to have to bat tremendously well now. Are Jimmy and Moeen injured? If they are we're fucked.
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Oh and my worries about Cook haven't been assuaged, his shot was fucking atrocious.
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We need to hit back in the morning. Australia bowled fast and well at the end, but we need to counter again. If we start scoring runs fast then that'll get them on the back foot quick. Although if Jimmy and Mo are injured we may as well pack up and go home.
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Oh and my worries about Cook haven't been assuaged, his shot was fucking atrocious.
Yep, especially after he'd failed first innings.
Not looking good at all if Anderson isn't 100%.
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We need to hit back in the morning. Australia bowled fast and well at the end, but we need to counter again. If we start scoring runs fast then that'll get them on the back foot quick. Although if Jimmy and Mo are injured we may as well pack up and go home.
The trouble is, they'll bowl short and fast - how do you counter that other than pulling and hooking? We all know what happens when England batsmen hook...
The bowling cupboard really is bare though. Where's Adil Rashid, is he on the tour?
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You hook and pull well.
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Oh and my worries about Cook haven't been assuaged, his shot was fucking atrocious.
Yep, especially after he'd failed first innings.
Not looking good at all if Anderson isn't 100%.
Hopefully what they're saying is true and it was workload. If that is true then the change bowlers need to step up. Woakes and Ball weren't good enough overall.
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Oh and my worries about Cook haven't been assuaged, his shot was fucking atrocious.
Yep, especially after he'd failed first innings.
Not looking good at all if Anderson isn't 100%.
Hopefully what they're saying is true and it was workload. If that is true then the change bowlers need to step up. Woakes and Ball weren't good enough overall.
I watched every ball today and it's not like Ball and Woakes bowled badly after lunch, they didn't bowl many 4 balls infact they kept it fairly tight, but at no point did the Aussies look uncomfortable facing them, they just knocked it about, kept rotating te strike and put bad ball away.
This is why I was saying we miss Stokes and the extra pace and skiddy variation of Wood in Australia. Pace matters if the ball's not moving and once the Kookaburra is more than 25 overs old the seam flattens and it does fuck all so the bowlers either need to have a 145kph spell in their locker or great variation, off cutters, reverse etc. Woakes and Ball have neither and on todays evidence they're in for a long tour if they can't adapt quickly.
We know that Stokes sitation is complex but is Wood on a Lions tour (or any other bowler of genuine pace and hostility on this tour, Not seen much of Curran?)
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Woakes can get his pace up so maybe they need to consider his role. Get him bowling fast in short spells. Curran is definitely not the answer in Test cricket in Aus, unless he's put on about 10mph on his bowling.
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I still find it slightly mental that Plunkett isn't there. If he were the fourth seamer I think we'd be better balanced. Ball is fine, but he's a bit samey to Broad.
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If only Moen just posed a few more problems or had more consistency, they could then rotate the quicks and use Woakes as you suggest in those middle overs but you can see they just don't trust him to tie them down in anywhere near the way Lyon does.
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Those of you in a depressive mood please lighten up. OK England should have got 50 more runs than they did and yes Aussies should have have been knocked over for 50 fewer but... both teams are evenly balanced and average Test standard teams so it will ebb and flow all series.
To get them all out for just over 300 at the Gabba is very good. A good morning and the Test is England's. One thing is clear both teams are incapable of annihilating the each other.
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Oh and my worries about Cook haven't been assuaged, his shot was fucking atrocious.
To be fair Paul, you do seem to have worries about every single player at various times!
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I'm more frustrated to be honest as we had a wonderful opportunity today but to put things into some context Engand are in their strongest position entering the 4th day of a Gabba Test than at any time since November 1986.
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Oh and my worries about Cook haven't been assuaged, his shot was fucking atrocious.
To be fair Paul, you do seem to have worries about every single player at various times!
Yes fair point!
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Those of you in a depressive mood please lighten up. OK England should have got 50 more runs than they did and yes Aussies should have have been knocked over for 50 fewer but... both teams are evenly balanced and average Test standard teams so it will ebb and flow all series.
To get them all out for just over 300 at the Gabba is very good. A good morning and the Test is England's. One thing is clear both teams are incapable of annihilating the each other.
It's England in Australia though, and more often than not, even if things look decent at one point, they always end up bad. I think the Aussies are bang average, but England are masters at shooting themselves square in the foot. I expect Australia to knock off the winning runs about an hour after Tea tomorrow amid loads of press comments about "express pace".
To borrow from Battlestar Galactica: all of this has happened before, all of this will happen again.
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However “all of this.....” phrase equally applies to the other side. Joe you are a true villain as we all worry about other team scoring on the counter when we have a corner😊
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It's such a cruel blow that we can't have Tymal Mills in the team.
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Cannot understand why on earth the ECB have not allowed Stokes to be selected. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? It would appear that the police are struggling to find any real decisive evidence and what they do eventually find will be given to the CPS who will then sit on it for weeks before, IMO, coming up with "insufficient evidence to justify proceedings". In the mean time the Ashes could well be lost.
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It's such a cruel blow that we can't have Tymal Mills in the team.
Why not? Injury, IPL or some other reason?
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He's got a back condition that means he can't put too much stress on it. It's why he only plays 20/20.
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Right England the time is nearly upon us, please don't wilt. Battle hard and push them back and get them panicked about the lead we're building.
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Bright, very warm and Sunny this morning. A 'batting day' as Bumble would say.
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Fingers crossed.
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Funny thing is I think we're focussing on the wrong target, Lyon is the key to breaking down their attack. Take him on so he can't hold an end and the pacers will get burned out.
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Evening all here we go.
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Off we go then. We simply can’t afford an early wicket.
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Oh my Stoneman gets away with it.
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Come on England!
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Bollix! Lyons gets Stoneman
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Fuck that's a massive blow. We really need to knock Lyon out of the attack.
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We can't sit in against Lyon, we have to put the pressure on him.
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Christ get your head in the game Root.
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This is going to be very dodgy against Lyon unless one of these takes him on and gets him off.
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Lyon has improved immeasurably over the last 18 months. He used to be so inferior in comparison to someone like Greame Swann but now he's become a clever bowler who can either defend or attack like Swann could and gets good players out. This allows them to rotate their quicks.
Now if you give Lyon a 4th/5th day pitch he makes it count like Swann used to, that hasn't always been the case.
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Malan gone Lyon again
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And right on cue that's a beauty from Lyon to get Malan.
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For fuck's sake Lyon is killing us. Put him on the back fucking foot.
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I'd have put Bairstow in next to try and wrestle back the initiative here.
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Not good. The game might effectively be over as a contest by the time I finish my beer.
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That's the biggest problem, we just won't take him on. I really want mo to play his natural game and try to hit him out.
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Jesus wept, Ali needs to switch on here.
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That's the biggest problem, we just won't take him on. I really want mo to play his natural game and try to hit him out.
We might well be at a stage now, effectively 50-odd for 4, where Lyon can't be hit out of the attack. Smith can keep him on, no matter if Moeen goes after him, hits a few 4s and 6s, because there's obviously a wicket or three in him. Our best counterattack probably still can't get us a defendable total from here.
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This is where England pay the price for failing to pick a veteran batsman, one who's at least in his forties. Such a player could not possibly be intimidated by a bowling attack that consists of three men with seventies sitcom moustaches. I don't remember Thompson and Lillee running up looking like Basil Fawlty, as Starc and Cummins do. Hazlewood is clearly aiming for the full Captain Mainwaring and is stuck at the Blakey from On The Buses stage. These are not people to fear. It's just a shame Lyon hasn't come as Mrs Slocombe.
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Who do you suggest Chinchilla?
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Crocodile Dundee has just been on the pitch looking for water I think!
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50 up for Joe and a good knock.
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I'd suggest Graeme Swann. Actually I don't think he's forty, but I'd still suggest him to get him out of the commentary box.
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Shit. Root's gone.
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180 lead needed as a minimum. Not looking good.
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We need a century stand, at least, from Moeen and Bairstow. They're well capable of it. If we can bat through the day we might just avoid defeat. That's the best we can hope for now.
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Fucks sake. Everytime we start to put them under a bit of pressure, we fucking gift them something. No need for Moeen to be that close to the line with his foot. He has to know where the crease is. Awful awful way to get out. The difference in this match is shown by the contrast in determination and application of Smith vs our batsmen.
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Poor decision to give Moen out there, the benefit of the doubt surely must to go to the batsman on those.
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Do not lose a fucking wicket before tea. Get there with Bairstow and Woakes still in and we give Australia something to think about again
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They telegraphed that. Starc puts a short leg in and silly point and bangs it in short, Woakes responds by trying to fend at shoulder height instead of dropping his hands and just guided the ball straight to the cordon. That's another soft dismissal, Woakes has had a very ordinary match here.
What would we give now for that 40/50 run lead we should have had on 1st innings.
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Bairstow gone, nothing shot.
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That was just fucking dreadful from Bairstow. They put a man there for that shot and he falls right for it. Absolutely crazy.
We really have gifted Australia this match should they go on and win it
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Yet another batting collapse
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God we miss Stokes, batsman and quality bowler short. We've really felt his absence here the idiot. Hope he's still up watching this and not tucked up warm in bed.
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4 wickets for 10 runs. Pathetic
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All out, Ausdies to chase 170 to win as the tail gets blown away again. We have at least 2 number 11's in this line up with Ball and Anderson.
A few soft dismissals since lunch from Moen, Woakes and Bairstow. We've got ourselves into this game but again a tale of what might have been.
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Another poor England display down under, this series has got whitewash written all over it.
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In fairness we've played really well in patches, I thought we had our noses in front for days 1, 2 and half of day 3. But once it turns Australia's way they bury you and they've done that today.
You simply must take your chances when you break the game open and we didn't yesterday after lunch. We let it drift and got punished, that was the match right there.
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In fairness we've played really well in patches, I thought we had our noses in front for days 1, 2 and half of day 3. But once it turns Australia's way they bury you and they've done that today.
You simply must take your chances when you break the game open and we didn't yesterday after lunch. We let it drift and got punished, that was the match right there.
Too many failures batting and not nearly enough bite in attack. We’ve no tail at all, so failures higher up the order are going to cost us matches. Cook especially needs a long hard look at himself this week.
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It won't take long for the Aussies to win tomorrow, our bowling attack looks weak but we have had them in trouble during this game at times let them off the hook when were in a strong position.
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Not good enough again, 3 batsmen get to 40-50 and can't push on. The tail is offering absolutely zero resistance so basically 6 down and it's all over. Then to cap it off the bowling was toothless.
The weakness of the tail means our batsmen have to do a better job. Getting to 40 odd does nothing for us.
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They should call Plunkett up now, he offers something that might actually cause the Aussies difficulty on a flat pitch and he would strengthen the batting.
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Can they do that?
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They can add who they want, I really don't get his omission.
As an aside the tactic of bowling tight is being undermined by the change bowlers. The Aussies know they can see off Jimmy and Broad and then score off the others. Woakes and Ball (or another) need to step up. If you're not express pace you need to give nothing away. Mo bowled poorly, by his own admission, but he's not a holding bowler. He has to be used to attack.
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Plunkett should have come in instead of Curran who I really can't see getting a game.
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Can they do that?
Yes as Ashes is not an Official ICC Trophy tournament so remove or add to squad anytime you like.
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The most worrying thing was I saw a lot of scared men out there last night. Absolute rabbits in headlights. If their mindset doesn't change Aussies will walk it.
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Yes, in truth we got bullied by their attack but had nothing to answer back with. Genuine pace and agression is what you need to bring to Australia.
I was talking to my brother a few months ago and I just said we need to bring the fastest bowler we've got irrespective of experience to fight fire with fire at some point. If that's Ball then were fucked.
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Root is a quality player, but the one issue he has is converting 60-70 odd into big centuries, something he's acknowledged in the past. If we're going to stand a chance, especially with the weakness of our tail, we need him to be like Steve Smith and get huge scores.
It would also be helpful if the police would hurry up and make a bloody decision on Stokes.
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Thats the reason why Root, wonderful player though he is, isn't at the level of Smith. His mentality isn't as strong. Smith took control of the situation in their first knock and there was no way he was going to get out.
It's also an interesting stat that Root has only scored 1 century in a 2nd innings.
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I think the game was lost when we let Smith and the tail add over a 100 to the score and last at least a session longer than they should've. If we'd got that spell right we would have been 60-70 up going into our 2nd innings and that completely changes the game.
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Root is a quality player, but the one issue he has is converting 60-70 odd into big centuries, something he's acknowledged in the past. If we're going to stand a chance, especially with the weakness of our tail, we need him to be like Steve Smith and get huge scores.
It would also be helpful if the police would hurry up and make a bloody decision on Stokes.
Cook's the only batsman we have with the mentality to just bat and bat and get the huge hundreds. It seems to be a trait sorely lacking in English batsmen in general. India and Australia have often had players who just occupy the crease and accumulate.
I would say this type of batsman is just as important in Australia as having fast bowlers. If your opposition has rapid bowlers, but they have to toil in the Aussie heat for hours on end it definitely blunts them.
As for what happened last night - I am Jack's lack of surprise. I think if we avoid a whitewash, and the new batsmen consistently get scores, the I'd call this tour a success. It's come at the wrong time for us in terms of the personnel available and also their stage of development.
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Stokes is obviously a huge loss to the squad as well. Ball looks about as threatening as Derek Pringle in his pipe and slippers.
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I honestly think Stokes and the addition of a bowler with genuine pace and hostility and we'd have probably won this match. As it is the scorecard will read like we've been stuffed.
I said it pre-match we'd miss Stokes all-round presence and Wood's pace and that's how it turned out. Woakes stays in the absence of Stokes but we need genuine pace that unsettles batsmen from somewhere. At least Adelaide is a day/night so the ball should do a lot more.
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I honestly think Stokes and the addition of a bowler with genuine pace and hostility and we'd have probably won this match. As it is the scorecard will read like we've been stuffed.
I said it pre-match we'd miss Stokes all-round presence and Wood's pace and that's how it turned out. Woakes stays in the absence of Stokes but we need genuine pace that unsettles batsmen from somewhere. At least Adelaide is a day/night so the ball should do a lot more.
Mark Wood starts his comeback tonight playing for the England Lions in a 3 day game. Lets hope he does well and gets through it.
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I honestly think Stokes and the addition of a bowler with genuine pace and hostility and we'd have probably won this match. As it is the scorecard will read like we've been stuffed.
I said it pre-match we'd miss Stokes all-round presence and Wood's pace and that's how it turned out. Woakes stays in the absence of Stokes but we need genuine pace that unsettles batsmen from somewhere. At least Adelaide is a day/night so the ball should do a lot more.
On the other hand, if half of the Australian top order hadn't been brainless in the first innings, it wouldn't have mattered.
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Could say the same for England. Most of our batsmen got out, rather than were got out.
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Well if Wood's only playing his first game back and its a 3 dayer its probably too soon for him for Adelaide as it starts on Saturday.
Aussie media making a huge fuss about the Bairstow headbut. McGrath only knows what he was thinking. This is either going to be a massive team bonding siege mentality revival or it'll turn into a tour from hell very quickly.
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Well if Wood's only playing his first game back and its a 3 dayer its probably too soon for him for Adelaide as it starts on Saturday.
Aussie media making a huge fuss about the Bairstow headbut. McGrath only knows what he was thinking. This is either going to be a massive team bonding siege mentality revival or it'll turn into a tour from hell very quickly.
Bit concerning that yet another alcohol related behavioural issue has surfaced. Article in the BBC says that Bairstow had been warned about his behaviour as recently as October, but he's now in the headlines for the wrong reason. Does maybe suggest a problem with the culture of the team or at best a naivety amongst the players.
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Can’t believe that Bairstow greeting with a head tap is weirder than Western Australia knowing who has the heaviest head :-)
Was a brilliantly executed piece of gamesmanship by the village idiot Warner who knew exactly what he was doing getting close enough to the stump mic to make the comment - at that point Bairstow was literally the last chance England had to salvage the game.
As for the team, would def swap Bairstow & Mo in batting order, with the rabbits at 9, 10 & 11 I’d rather have Mo going for shots and Bairstow is a more reliable proper batsman for 6.
Bowling I think Ball failed his audition big style but is Overton and better or more likely to step up? Do we go for Crane instead of Ball and try and eek bowlers 4/5 out of Crane / Mo & Root? Woakes we have to hope gets back to 2016 form sharpish as it horribly exposes lack of 4th seamer quality.
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Looks like Stokes has been spotted at Heathrow flying out to Oz.
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Supposedly flying to NZ for time with family.
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Supposedly flying to NZ for time with family.
Pretty convenient for him to fly to the same area of the world as England happen to be in (I know he has family there) and flying over just at the right time to be fully acclimatised by the 3rd test. I suspect we'll see him involved if the 2nd test doesn't go any better.
That said, despite the scoreline, I think it was genuinely a game of fine margins, Letting Smith and Cummins get them back into the game was the key period, once they had a first innings lead it was always going to be a tough game as their confidence was up from clawing their way back into it.
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From ESPN
Ben Stokes has been spotted at Heathrow Airport, sporting his full cricket kit, fuelling extensive rumours that he is heading to Australia to reinforce England's Ashes squad in the wake of their defeat in the first Test at Brisbane.
An ECB official confirmed to ESPNcricinfo that he was at the airport, but insisted that he was not heading out to join the Ashes squad.
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Well I'm assuming the police aren't charging him, otherwise I doubt he'd be allowed leave the country.
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Police can not do anything to restrict anyone before a charge is cited. After that they can restrict up to trial. After trial restriction if required is placed by the Court. (I think😊)
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Heard today that Stokes is heading here to Christchurch to have a couple of games for Canterbury. Warm up for rejoining England in Oz?
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Police can not do anything to restrict anyone before a charge is cited. After that they can restrict up to trial. After trial restriction if required is placed by the Court. (I think😊)
Fair enough, I do wonder if anything has changed though.
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Wouldn't surprise me if he's been given the nod ahead of an announcement. I hope so, England really missed him in Brisbane.
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Just seems odd that he'd suddenly make the decision to go now if there wasn't some expectation he was going to be cleared.
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I agree, I suspect someone has told him that no charges are going to be sought so he's getting near to the squad so when things get announced he can quickly join them. I'd be pretty surprised if he doesn't play a part later in the series.
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I agree, I suspect someone has told him that no charges are going to be sought so he's getting near to the squad so when things get announced he can quickly join them. I'd be pretty surprised if he doesn't play a part later in the series.
The third test starts in Perth on 14 December. Ideally we need to avoid defeat in the second test and have Stokes in situ and ready to play with England one down with three to play.
If the Aussies win the second test then we will not recover from that with our without Stokes.
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I would be absolutely astounded if the second Test ends in a draw. I think it's probably 55% chance Australia win, 44% chance England win and 1% chance of a draw.
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I would be absolutely astounded if the second Test ends in a draw. I think it's probably 55% chance Australia win, 44% chance England win and 1% chance of a draw.
It depends on what the pink ball does under the lights. In the games where I've seen it there's been loads of swing once the lights come on. If that happens it should improve our chances.
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I agree if it does it's our best chance, but I think the Aussie attack will also benefit, especially Starc.
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After a few days of sulking, I'm back up for the next test. As has been mentioned, it has been said that the day/night game might suit us more if the ball swings. Get it back to 1-1 and you never know.
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From the BEEB
Police have completed their investigation into the incident involving England cricketer Ben Stokes and are now "seeking charging advice".
Stokes, 26, was arrested on suspicion of causing actual bodily harm after an incident outside a Bristol nightclub on 25 September in which a man suffered a fractured eye socket.
He was released under investigation.
On Wednesday, Avon & Somerset Police said they had passed a file to the Crown Prosecution Service.
Stokes did not fly to Australia with the England squad in October for the current Ashes series.
At that time, the England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB) said the Durham player would not be selected "at this stage".
On Wednesday, Stokes landed in New Zealand and is expected to play for Canterbury in their domestic competition this weekend.
England trail 1-0 in the Ashes after a 10-wicket defeat in Brisbane.
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So police are seeking charging advice from CPS.
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So basically as you were but the report i read said it'll be drawn out for 'several weeks' more. That's pretty much the end of the series you'd imagine.
The ECB now have a decision to make, they either continue on with their no selection policy on Stokes and we all accept he's not playing in this series or release him to play immediately.
Personally, I'm not sure he can play now given their previous stance and I'd be fine with that.
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Plunkett or Wood to join the squad please.
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Plunkett or Wood to join the squad please.
Maybe both Paul to put a bit of pressure on to perform.
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So basically as you were but the report i read said it'll be drawn out for 'several weeks' more. That's pretty much the end of the series you'd imagine.
The ECB now have a decision to make, they either continue on with their no selection policy on Stokes and we all accept he's not playing in this series or release him to play immediately.
Personally, I'm not sure he can play now given their previous stance and I'd be fine with that.
He's been accepted to play for Canterbury and joins the squad for a one dayer this Sunday.
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Plunkett or Wood to join the squad please.
I'd look to get both into the team ahead of Woakes and Ball.
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I wouldn't ditch Woakes, although he was poor in the 1st Test. He's the sort of player who can work out a way to succeed.
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I wouldn't ditch Woakes, although he was poor in the 1st Test. He's the sort of player who can work out a way to succeed.
I like Woakes as a cricketer, but his test record away from England so far is shockingly bad.
I really think we need to get some pace into the attack, and Plunkett and Wood could provide something close to that
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I wouldn't ditch Woakes, although he was poor in the 1st Test. He's the sort of player who can work out a way to succeed.
In the absence of Stokes I'd give him another Test but if he's underwhelming again he'd be out for Perth. The WACA is an absolute graveyard for anybody bowling under 138kph as it neither seams or swings in their dry heat. They'll hit a bower like Woakes out of sight over there.
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Jimmy doing his bit to get in the umpires heads about Australia's bowling at the tail. I think he has a point 5 consecutive bouncers at Ball was out of order.
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Jimmy doing his bit to get in the umpires heads about Australia's bowling at the tail. I think he has a point 5 consecutive bouncers at Ball was out of order.
There was definitely a spell where they took it too far, I don't know if the umpires said something at the time though.
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Apparently not.
Neither Jimmy or Mo bowled today, which is a concern.
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It's only a problem because they all looked shit at (not) playing them. They tried the same against Malan in the first innings and it didn't work very well to start off with. Likewise, the English bowlers took a similar approach against Smith on the third morning, but it's hardly Australia's fault that it was Jake Ball bowling them, not Starc or Cummins.
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I actually agree Passitsideways, the deliveries where generally between hip and chin height and that's fair enough at Test level. You're going to get your technique examined and if your not up to it then either get better or expect more of the same.
If England had bowlers like that they'd be doing exactly the same.
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That is absolutely true of an established batsman and it's fair enough then. It's a different story with a tailender who is known not to be a great bat. 5 successive bouncers was over the top to a guy who is batting 10/11.
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I actually agree Passitsideways, the deliveries where generally between hip and chin height and that's fair enough at Test level. You're going to get your technique examined and if your not up to it then either get better or expect more of the same.
If England had bowlers like that they'd be doing exactly the same.
If we had bowlers that could do it, then Australia probably wouldn't. At the moment, they know they can bowl short at our tailenders, without fear of retribution when their tailenders bat.
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I actually agree Passitsideways, the deliveries where generally between hip and chin height and that's fair enough at Test level. You're going to get your technique examined and if your not up to it then either get better or expect more of the same.
If England had bowlers like that they'd be doing exactly the same.
I agree that most of them were, but, as i said, there was one little spell where, in my opinion, they were bowling 3-4 over shoulder height per over and not getting called up on it because they were borderline, that's the bit I have issue with, not the ones that are up in the armpit region.
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That is absolutely true of an established batsman and it's fair enough then. It's a different story with a tailender who is known not to be a great bat. 5 successive bouncers was over the top to a guy who is batting 10/11.
Agree in principle Paul, but I think that kind of consideration went out of the game sometime ago. I recall watching Darren Gough doing one of those masterclasses on SKY and telling a story about when he was under the captaincy of Richie Richardson. He said they were playing a game and he had got four wickets when the opposition number 11 came in. He said he was going to pitch it up to him to try and get his fifth, when Richardson strolled over, told him Malcolm Marshall was watching in the crowd and to instructed him to "knock his head off". Gough duly obliged and the batsman just about managed to get out of harm's way. He said he was going back to mark when Richardson came over again and said "do it again", so he did. Richardson then came up to him and said "now pitch it up" which he did and got his fifth wicket. He said that Richardson took him to one side afterwards and said that that was what he expected of him and that it was a real learning experience.
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One of my favourite sporting battles was when Richardson was at Yorkshire, without a helmet, facing a fired up Allan Donald at Edgbaston. Two world class players at the top of their games.
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Concerns of Moeen's fitness to bowl, so we're potentially going in with no spinner other than Root. I hope the conditions at Adelaide are as expected.
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One of my favourite sporting battles was when Richardson was at Yorkshire, without a helmet, facing a fired up Allan Donald at Edgbaston. Two world class players at the top of their games.
My best memory is Kallicharan and Lloyd taking on Thompson and Lilley at their best and depositing their bouncers into the crowd.
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Anyone up later to see the toss?
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England win toss and bowl. That's always an interesting decision. Overton in for Ball.
Overcast and very windy, England need to start well
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So 11 overs gone and it's raining. Aus 24-0 and we badly need to re-group as quite frankly we've been awful.
Bowled too short and we've looked asleep in the field. There's been at least 3 singles taken to fielders who should have been saving one. This looks a poor decision to bowl on this evidence so far.
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England’s performance has been similar to my attempt to stay awake. Ineffective.
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I don't think its a poor decision to bowl, with overcast conditions and the lights on.
We've just been fucking shit.
I can't see us taking 20 wickets during a match this series.
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I agree, it'll be a real struggle with our current attack. If the ball isn't doing much we are very pedestrian which is the one thing you cannot afford to be on Australian pitches.
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Oops.
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Never run on a misfield!
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Kwiff - who thought of that name? Sounds like something from Terrance and Phillip. (Assuming you're seeing the same ads as me)
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It's not played like a bowl first pitch at all yet. Let's see if it behaves different once the sun goes down.
And Overton has a face straight out of the 1960s.
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30 overs gone, Aus 74-1 the wicket being a run out, if that were a session, after putting in Australia, I'd be starting to really worry if I were Joe Root.
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It's not played like a bowl first pitch at all yet. Let's see if it behaves different once the sun goes down.
And Overton has a face straight out of the 1960s.
Overton was the name of the family across the road from us who we shared a 'party line' telephone with in the seventies.
Nowadays a 'party line' is a premium rate phone line advertised on TV late at night where you can apparently "make new friends over the phone". Which to me always appears to be the best chance to possibly meet a serial killer.
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And now a through the legs miss field goes for 4. Quite honestly, England has been diabolical with the ball and in the field so far.
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And now a through the legs miss field goes for 4. Quite honestly, England has been diabolical with the ball and in the field so far.
The only other reason we could have to bowl first, is that we were so terrified of what their bowlers would do to our batting that putting them in was the lesser of two evils. You never bowl first in Australia.
How many more of their players are we going to help get their form back I wonder?
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England just haven't looked switched on and up for it at all. I'm wondering how many of the players really wanted to bowl first as we've looked like a side that just didn't fancy being out here.
Our ground fielding really has been atrocious, easy singles taken to Woakes at mid on, Vince's one that went through his legs wouldve embarrassed a parks cricketer, even the run out was due to a Moen miss field. We need a break quickly.
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Ooh, needed that. Warner gone, and that's the second good thing Woakes has done today after the run out.
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Kawaja dropped, should have been taken. A passage of of play that pretty much summed up our day so far.
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Kawaja dropped, should have been taken. A passage of of play that pretty much summed up our day so far.
A simple chance too
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That wicket would have given the session to England but.....
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Considering he's arguably the best batsman in the World, Steve Smith is horrible to watch.
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I'm lost, are we in the "morning", "afternoon" or "evening" session right now?
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It goes afternoon (Tea), evening (dinner), night......... I think.
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Oh dear dropping chances is not something we can afford.
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Bloody hell didn't realise we won the toss and elected to field.
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I'm lost, are we in the "morning", "afternoon" or "evening" session right now?
Dinner break.
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This one is going to get away from us fairly soon if nothing happens. Strange decision to bowl first, and they certainly haven't made the most of it. That said, the catch would have shown things in a different light.
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We need them to have a collapse here.
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We need to make this session really count under the lights.
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Early breakthrough by Jimmy this session has helped but we need to get 4-5 before the close to justify taking the ball.
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We need Hanscombe out while he's playing like this.
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Come on bit of luck please nick a couple off.
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Overton you beauty!
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nice one Overton
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What a ball from Overton - where did that come from?!
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Handscomb before stumps would be nice.
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Blimey, what a ball!
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2/3 wickets come on England.
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It was me who did it as I bet a fiver on Smith to get 50😊
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We need another couple here.
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Feels like they've settled in a bit.
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Come on Moeen time to deliver son.
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We've let this slip.
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Australia's day definitely sadly.
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Terrible last over from Jimmy. Total waste sums up day’s play as it could have been so much better.
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Yeah sounds like we didn't bowl well first up either. Thing is if we're going to stand a chance here we need to do everything perfectly. We need an amazing first hour tomorrow now.
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Final session was much better. Still we're behind in the game thanks largely to taking half the day to get into the contest.
You'd think if the plan was to bowl first if we won the toss (or lost it presumably as Australia would've batted) we'd have been ready and psyched up, instead we were half asleep and just seemed to go through the motions. I saw nothing today to make me think we can turn this series around, least of all body language and doing the little things right.
Australia's day, a couple of early wickets needed tomorrow.
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Yes, what looks like a fairly even session is nothing of the sort really, given how much better Australia's attack and batting options down the order are. 200-6 or 7 would have looked much better, but as Oz says early on the bowlers were just going through the motions. Probably should have batted first, but then we'd have probably had a 180/7 sort of day if we had. I just have no confidence in this England team at the moment. The bowlers just aren't firing, and the batsmen are going to have to do a lot better as well.
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England need an absolutely stunning day tomorrow to get ahead in this game. We need to come out and run through them and then bat and give them nothing.
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A crucial first session in Adelaide possibly the most important passage of play in the entire series.
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RIGHT!!!!!!! Lets do this
Anderson and Broad need a very early breakthrough. 2 wickets in the first two overs will do. Not expecting miracles.
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Handscomb GONE!!!!!!!!!!! 1st over.
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Yep, bowling first didn't work. They've knocked it around again looking fairly untroubled. England need to be batting now to set the foundation before the lights come on.
You fear for them in the final session already.
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And it's not because they arn't trying or that we've bowled poorly because we haven't really. They've toiled away without much luck. It's because we simply arn't good enough.
Currently Overton has bowled 30 overs in his 1st innings in his first Test but its at 130-135 kph. Woakes is just a bowling machine for these batsman while Anderson and Broad, coming straight off the Gabba, have been bowled into the ground. Moen has been ineffective as a spin option maybe due to his finger injury (but watch how Lyon will bowl).
The bowling in Australian conditions lacks variety but most importantly pace. The fielding has been ok at times to poor at times. Its obvious that we won't retain the Ashes with this team, no chance. I just hope we don't lose 5-0 again.
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I think I said a few pages back it would be 5-0, and it probably will. Fancy putting this bowling group in to bowl first, FFS.
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I think I said a few pages back it would be 5-0, and it probably will. Fancy putting this bowling group in to bowl first, FFS.
If Stokes and Wood don't play in the series it'll be 5-0 for sure unless it pisses down somewhere.
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Why put them into bat when you know you've got to bat last in a day/night test?
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Why put them into bat when you know you've got to bat last in a day/night test?
And especially when your bowlers are sending down help yourself stuff. This was the test we needed to win to have a chance, but will probably end up being another sound thrashing.
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Australia could not have planned this better. Comming up to twilight and it looks like we may be batting soon. We will do well to get to stumps without losing a wicket.
I think Root will have to have a good think about how he called this one.
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What are the odds on us being 80-5 here?
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Lyon batting at no10 hits Overton for 6 - the ball was 131kph. I'll bet Stuart Broad won't get a single ball from a Aussie quick at that pace in this entire series let alone put it over the rope.
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The team as a batting unit needs to show some fucking guts and class.
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What are the odds on us being 80-5 here?
I'd settle for only being 5 down.
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And a declaration just to rub it in.
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And a declaration just to rub it in.
And a Shaun Marsh ton. Shaun Marsh!
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I'm not expecting much, but this batting innings will determine the path of the series. If we fold, then I think the wheels will be fully off and we'll be facing a 5-0.
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Lyon batting at no10 hits Overton for 6 - the ball was 131kph. I'll bet Stuart Broad won't get a single ball from a Aussie quick at that pace in this entire series let alone put it over the rope.
First two balls from Starc at 90mph, or 145kph in old (new?) money.
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And now 93.5mph.
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Ever get the feeling that you have seen this film before?
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Out of interest, as you'll know more about County players than me, is there anyone who can bowl consistantly at 140+kph at County level that can play longer form cricket?
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The openers have played the first few overs as well as could be expected, but plenty of balls are beating the outside edge, and it won't be a surprise if one or two wickets go down soon. A completely different set of expectations to when we were bowling.
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And there we go. Stoneman out LBW for 18.
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And lost a review.
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Australia got to their score by a number of contributions and one man getting a century. We need that.
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And lost a review.
I thought that was a waste of a review. They seemed to be banking on it being overturned on umpire's call.
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Rain turned out to be a handy night watchman.
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It did. I think a major problem is our bowling attack is far too samey. It feels like banging the same drum, but Plunkett or Wood should be playing. Also Mo clearly isn't fit enough to bowl.
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And lost a review.
I thought that was a waste of a review. They seemed to be banking on it being overturned on umpire's call.
Worryingly that review was desperate and normally associated with less confident outfits. This is not a good situation.
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I got my old Tony Butler Preyer mat out and for once it worked. Thank you GOD and Mother nature.
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What's happened to Jamie Overton? I seem to remember he bowled left arm and about 90mph.
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Out of interest, as you'll know more about County players than me, is there anyone who can bowl consistantly at 140+kph at County level that can play longer form cricket?
Had a quick look at this.
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/cricket/who-are-the-quickest-fast-bowlers-playing-cricket-right-now/news-story/60e8c5b0cedb8aebb9fe8dd2ec9d357d
Seems that Plunkett and Finn (unlike Tymal Mills who is not able to last long spells) are fast but I'm not sure of their injury status.
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Overton is playing
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Craig Overton is playing, his brother is not.
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Ahh right
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Craig Overton is playing, his brother is not.
Found this:
http://www.espn.co.uk/cricket/story/_/id/20923290/reece-topley-jamie-overton-england-pace-programme
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Ah well hopefully he recovers as he is quick.
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Craig Overton is playing, his brother is not.
Found this:
http://www.espn.co.uk/cricket/story/_/id/20923290/reece-topley-jamie-overton-england-pace-programme
That story is hugely encouraging, i just hope they look for sub-continent placements at times as well. One of the biggest problems England have had for years is that the best test players almost inevitably have time in county cricket and learn how to play our conditions but very few English players ever experience playing in other countries beyond IPL/Big Bash contracts. It's why we struggle batting on the back foot or facing spin at both ends, it's why our bowlers settle at a swinging pace rather than pushing on and it's why our spinners don't develop natural variations because they all settle into a style that works in our conditions.
Finn, from the list above, is a great example, had express pace but with a bad habit of clipping the stumps, to fix it they remodelled his action and he's now 6-7mph slower and bowling like a swing bowler and doesn't look anything special.
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I'm not sure how many of our county players spend time abroad playing. I know Mike Gatting used to play in the Aussie county leagues when he was a young man. It may still be the case of players going overseas in our winter.
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Looks like only weather can save us from defeat in this match, and realistically only weather can curtail a 5-0 series defeat. Its a dismay that only now England seem to realise thelack of pace in the attack in Australia is a fundamental flaw. Its been pretty obvious to most England fans since the hammering in 2013.
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Right Cook or Root, time for a double hundred please.
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No rain forecast today. By the time play starts it will be sunny and 22 so could be good conditions for batting.
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A pretty embarrassing session again from England. Poor shots from Vince and Root and a very soft one from Cook.
There doesn't appear to be a great deal of character in this side.
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I can accept not being good enough as it's obvious that England are just not as good man for man than Australia right now. What is unacceptable is the lack of application shown by the batsman, Captain and former Captain included.
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That "shot" from Moeen just about sums it all up.
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I hope Root shuts up now. All the crap he came out with, about how we were extra motivated by the Aussies comments.
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Pathetic, and sadly unsurprising. This is looking like another disaster tour.
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Also sadly I don't think Root is even in the conversation with Smith and Kohli for best bat in the world. He gives it away far more often than those two.
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The Ashes are about over now, and only into the second test. Pathetic batting yet again today.
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Disgraceful. When the wheels come off in Australia, they do so in some style.
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Well done Woakes and Overton showing up the shameful effort from the batsmen.
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This session we're bowling how we should've on the first day, 2-3 yards fuller and they're just not dealing with the late swing.
41-3 and Smith got very lucky with one as well.
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Also sadly I don't think Root is even in the conversation with Smith and Kohli for best bat in the world. He gives it away far more often than those two.
He's not even the best bat in the England team. It's still Cook. We are still too dependent on him though: he makes a score, England posts a good total; he fails and more often that not England gets skittled.
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Looks high
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This session we're bowling how we should've on the first day, 2-3 yards fuller and they're just not dealing with the late swing.
41-3 and Smith got very lucky with one as well.
It's the hope that kills you ... i expect Smith will make the most of it now and take the game away from us once and for all.
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This session we're bowling how we should've on the first day, 2-3 yards fuller and they're just not dealing with the late swing.
41-3 and Smith got very lucky with one as well.
It's the hope that kills you ... i expect Smith will make the most of it now and take the game away from us once and for all.
You were saying? ;-)
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Its been good bowling this session. Shocked that Australia chose to bat again. They'd have had us 5 or 6 down by the close of play in these conditions.
Australia could just declare now in fairness. They have probably 100 more than we are capable of chasing already.
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This session we're bowling how we should've on the first day, 2-3 yards fuller and they're just not dealing with the late swing.
41-3 and Smith got very lucky with one as well.
It's the hope that kills you ... i expect Smith will make the most of it now and take the game away from us once and for all.
You were saying? ;-)
Finally my attempts to jinx the Aussies pays off!
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Its been good bowling this session. Shocked that Australia chose to bat again. They'd have had us 5 or 6 down by the close of play in these conditions.
Australia could just declare now in fairness. They have probably 100 more than we are capable of chasing already.
The concerning thing is that it has taken favourable conditions (ie the ball starting to swing) to make our bowlers threatening. It almost seems as if we have gone down there with the attitude that "it's not really our conditions, so what can you do?" and are getting rolled over again. You wouldn't bet against another 5-0 result at this point and if it is, to have 3 out of the last four series end up like that is just unacceptable.
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It's almost like that last session was played in Engand with the ball hooping around. They did brilliantly to even be thinking there's a chance at the close.
In reality though, a run chase of 320 is highly unlikely but possible, they'd need to really knuckle down and have some luck, I wouldn't be betting the house in it though.
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Its been good bowling this session. Shocked that Australia chose to bat again. They'd have had us 5 or 6 down by the close of play in these conditions.
Australia could just declare now in fairness. They have probably 100 more than we are capable of chasing already.
The concerning thing is that it has taken favourable conditions (ie the ball starting to swing) to make our bowlers threatening. It almost seems as if we have gone down there with the attitude that "it's not really our conditions, so what can you do?" and are getting rolled over again. You wouldn't bet against another 5-0 result at this point and if it is, to have 3 out of the last four series end up like that is just unacceptable.
I'm not sure that bit is true, I think they'd decided to pitch it up before it started swinging rather than because it started swinging. That's what England have got wrong because in English conditions you bowl length or a touch short and it's hard to get away but on Australia pitches that length just isn't threatening. It's not easy to score off, which is why the run rate has been low, but it just doesn't get wickets. Shifting to slightly full and bringing them forward is the way to mess with Aussies rythym because they're used to the extra pace and bouncier pitches. Look at Smith today, full and straight and he looked lost but bowling a few inches over 5th stump (Anderson's normal line) just doesn't bother him when the ball doesn't move in the air.
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Wish England had players who could stick around, got plenty who can come in and hit a few boundaries, shame the young lad from Lancashire had a poor season that wasn't helped by injury.
Is Root being written off again?
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Wish England had players who could stick around, got plenty who can come in and hit a few boundaries, shame the young lad from Lancashire had a poor season that wasn't helped by injury.
Is Root being written off again?
Root not being written off, just a realisation that whilst he's a wonderfully talented player, he doesn't possess the mindset that the best like Smith and Kohli have. He should really be making big scores much more consistently with his ability. Too many times he gets to 50/60 playing beautifully, then gives it away.
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In other cricket news, Alex Hales will not face any charges following the incident in Bristol back in September. Hopefully they will now be able to resolve the Stokes situation once and for all. It's been dragging on long enough.
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It's frustrating that we couldn't show this intent on the first day. Basically to have any chance we need to get them out for less than 110-120. Then we need the batsmen to show some grit, determination and brains.
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Wish England had players who could stick around, got plenty who can come in and hit a few boundaries, shame the young lad from Lancashire had a poor season that wasn't helped by injury.
Is Root being written off again?
Root not being written off, just a realisation that whilst he's a wonderfully talented player, he doesn't possess the mindset that the best like Smith and Kohli have. He should really be making big scores much more consistently with his ability. Too many times he gets to 50/60 playing beautifully, then gives it away.
I think this is just a case of having a more complete view of Root compared to the others but there are a few things to remember:
Root is 18 months younger than Smith and 2 years younger than Kohli, given he's nearly 27 he's just about reaching his physical peak, they've both been there for a while, that will have an effect.
Root has made 50+ more often than either of them but has got out in the 80s and 90s too often, a problem he's open about but his top score is better than both so he can bat long.
Root doesn't travel as well which is the problem I spoke about a couple of days ago. Smith has played IPL and for Worcestershire and even though it's only t20 it does make a difference.
I personally think there's not much between Root and Kohli and Smith is a step ahead currently, largely because people haven't worked out how to bowl at him because he's so unusual at the crease.
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I am annoyed, very annoyed, at Cook, Root, Moeen and Bairstow. They are the senior experienced players and it is/was their job to stand up and be counted but they have been abysmal. May be Root, Moeen and Baistow are not as good as we thought and Cook has left it all behind. All is all it's looking very bleak.
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Root's problem is his balance is off at the moment. He keeps on falling over to the offside.
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Wish England had players who could stick around, got plenty who can come in and hit a few boundaries, shame the young lad from Lancashire had a poor season that wasn't helped by injury.
Is Root being written off again?
Root not being written off, just a realisation that whilst he's a wonderfully talented player, he doesn't possess the mindset that the best like Smith and Kohli have. He should really be making big scores much more consistently with his ability. Too many times he gets to 50/60 playing beautifully, then gives it away.
I think this is just a case of having a more complete view of Root compared to the others but there are a few things to remember:
Root is 18 months younger than Smith and 2 years younger than Kohli, given he's nearly 27 he's just about reaching his physical peak, they've both been there for a while, that will have an effect.
Root has made 50+ more often than either of them but has got out in the 80s and 90s too often, a problem he's open about but his top score is better than both so he can bat long.
Root doesn't travel as well which is the problem I spoke about a couple of days ago. Smith has played IPL and for Worcestershire and even though it's only t20 it does make a difference.
I personally think there's not much between Root and Kohli and Smith is a step ahead currently, largely because people haven't worked out how to bowl at him because he's so unusual at the crease.
Interesting points Paul, but Smith struggled badly the last time the Aussies were up here.
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Whilst Smith, Pujara, Root and Williamson are neck and neck as the top 4 batsmen in the ICC ranking Kohli is way ahead all of them and at the moment only Amla comes close to him in terms of top drawer Test batters.
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Root's problem is his balance is off at the moment. He keeps on falling over to the offside.
You mean a bit like Heskey?
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Whilst Smith, Pujara, Root and Williamson are neck and neck as the top 4 batsmen in the ICC ranking Kohli is way ahead all of them and at the moment only Amla comes close to him in terms of top drawer Test batters.
Kohli isn't better than Smith.
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Well ok we will have to disagree on this. If Smith is the best his country shouldn't be messing around as the 5th ranked Test nation. Kohli and Pujara are delivering for the team when and where it matters.
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Well that's not really a reflection on him as a batsman though is it? he's averaging over 60 and is having to carry a much weaker batting unit.
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I am annoyed, very annoyed, at Cook, Root, Moeen and Bairstow. They are the senior experienced players and it is/was their job to stand up and be counted but they have been abysmal. May be Root, Moeen and Baistow are not as good as we thought and Cook has left it all behind. All is all it's looking very bleak.
I think it boils down to the fact that both England and Australia are both very good when playing in home conditions, but neither deal with being in the other country very well, usually.
That said, the way the top order has played has been criminally stupid. No attempt to see off the new ball and get themselves in, and then start to pick off the loose balls. Just about every dismissal has been avoidable. I suppose that should give some hope, as it's not like they're being done by unplayable balls, but none of them seen to learn from innings to the next.
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I am annoyed, very annoyed, at Cook, Root, Moeen and Bairstow. They are the senior experienced players and it is/was their job to stand up and be counted but they have been abysmal. May be Root, Moeen and Baistow are not as good as we thought and Cook has left it all behind. All is all it's looking very bleak.
I think it boils down to the fact that both England and Australia are both very good when playing in home conditions, but neither deal with being in the other country very well, usually.
That said, the way the top order has played has been criminally stupid. No attempt to see off the new ball and get themselves in, and then start to pick off the loose balls. Just about every dismissal has been avoidable. I suppose that should give some hope, as it's not like they're being done by unplayable balls, but none of them seen to learn from innings to the next.
A big part of that is the match situation I think, our 2 really poor performances in the top order have been when they've had the tail wag so the lower order come out to bowl with their confidence up. If we could skittle the last 4-5 for 30-40 runs I think we'd see a very different attitude from both sides.
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You'd hope so, we really need to hit them hard tomorrow.
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Yes Risso agreed home advantage works usually for all countries. India for example are swotting everyone like flies in India but I bet you they won’t be that brilliant here in about 6 months time. Australian bowling is not all that but as you have said there has been neglect of duty by England top order and I also think bowling has been rubbish absolutely wrong length for pitches out there and you would think that’s a simple thing to get right for a professional outfit.
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First of all, the rankings are a massive pile of shit and not really indicative of anything, about as useful as FIFA's rankings.
Secondly, Australia's problems generally have more to do with the batting beyond Warner and Smith - they generally kept India to manageable scores earlier this year, but lacked anyone to support Smith who scored three centuries in that series while Kohli did fuck-all before pulling out of the decider with an injury.
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Wish England had players who could stick around, got plenty who can come in and hit a few boundaries, shame the young lad from Lancashire had a poor season that wasn't helped by injury.
Is Root being written off again?
Root not being written off, just a realisation that whilst he's a wonderfully talented player, he doesn't possess the mindset that the best like Smith and Kohli have. He should really be making big scores much more consistently with his ability. Too many times he gets to 50/60 playing beautifully, then gives it away.
I think this is just a case of having a more complete view of Root compared to the others but there are a few things to remember:
Root is 18 months younger than Smith and 2 years younger than Kohli, given he's nearly 27 he's just about reaching his physical peak, they've both been there for a while, that will have an effect.
Root has made 50+ more often than either of them but has got out in the 80s and 90s too often, a problem he's open about but his top score is better than both so he can bat long.
Root doesn't travel as well which is the problem I spoke about a couple of days ago. Smith has played IPL and for Worcestershire and even though it's only t20 it does make a difference.
I personally think there's not much between Root and Kohli and Smith is a step ahead currently, largely because people haven't worked out how to bowl at him because he's so unusual at the crease.
Interesting points Paul, but Smith struggled badly the last time the Aussies were up here.
He literally topped the runscoring charts in that series. Overall, he still didn't have a great series because it was all rather boom and bust, and I know I'm coming off as overly defensive about him, but I don't think I've ever seen a cricketer who receives more unwarranted criticism relative to his actual abilities than Smith.
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Very impressive bowling (and fielding) performance by England, will be very interested to see how much of it they can translate over to the next three tests.
Seems quite likely that Maxwell will be in for Handscomb for Perth, a move which could go in all kinds of funny directions.
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At least we bowled them out, it's a big ask to chase the runs needed.
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It's the hope that kills you.
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Keeping the run rate going is important here, because clearly sooner or later we'll lose a wicket and we just need to take it in our stride.
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Lyon is key man. Clearly
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Bloody hell thanks Agnew, made it sound like there was no chance he was out.
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Fucking Cook, again.
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Come on boys keep getting partnerships.
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Bloody hell thanks Agnew, made it sound like there was no chance he was out.
To be fair Gilchrist and Boycott thought the same
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For fuck's sake, here we go.
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Root we need you to get a double hundred here.
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There we go. Probably all over now. Match and the Ashes.
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If we are going to do anything in this match and the series then we have to find a way to play against Nathan Lyon. At the moment we look terrified with each delivery.
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If we are going to do anything in this match and the series then we have to find a way to play against Nathan Lyon. At the moment we look terrified with each delivery.
You have to wonder what Shane Warne in his pomp would have done to this team.
But back to Cook: 2, 7 and 16 is just unacceptable. The only batsman not to get any sort of score whatsoever.
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If England lose this and again in Perth it will be worth replacing Cook and recalling Hales.
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The only time I can ever relax when England are batting is when both openers are still in. To borrow Sir Geoffrey's phrase, if you add a coupe of wickets to the score it doesn't look so clever; well, for me when watching England I always add "all out" to the score, as "all out" is always just round the corner.
Also, when England start scoring quickly, I'm convinced a wicket is imminent because we can never sustain it. And when England are not scoring and just blocking out I'm convinced a wicket is imminent...
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Vince gone, another unnecessary, soft shot. Way too many completely hopeless players in our batting line up.
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That's idiotic from Vince.
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Root gets a reprieve. Make it count.
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This is pretty tense stuff. It still looks a daunting total at this point, but if it were the other way around and Australia were chasing, I think we would be starting to get a bit edgy at this point. I think we are relying on Root getting a big score and others chipping in around him if we are to stand any chance.
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This is pretty tense stuff. It still looks a daunting total at this point, but if it were the other way around and Australia were chasing, I think we would be starting to get a bit edgy at this point. I think we are relying on Root getting a big score and others chipping in around him if we are to stand any chance.
100+ for Root, something close to a century for Malan and a Moeen contribution and they'll start to shit themselves. Of course, we'll probably lose both Root and Malan for 6 in the next two overs now I've said that.
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For a chase like this you'd want 1-2 50s in the top 3 so it's disappointing that they've all gone pretty cheaply.
However the mentality should be to break it down in to small chunks, play it in 35s (i.e. 10%) or 50s and keep telling yourself no wickets down in this chunk and stick around for it.
Smith has reviewed like a moron, Root has had a bit of luck but has worked hard for his runs and Malan has stuck around, even though it's been streaky.
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For a chase like this you'd want 1-2 50s in the top 3 so it's disappointing that they've all gone pretty cheaply.
However the mentality should be to break it down in to small chunks, play it in 35s (i.e. 10%) or 50s and keep telling yourself no wickets down in this chunk and stick around for it.
Smith has reviewed like a moron, Root has had a bit of luck but has worked hard for his runs and Malan has stuck around, even though it's been streaky.
Yep. Really could do with losing no more wickets in the remaining 15 minutes and adding 10-15 more runs.
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Damn Malan gone. Come on guys keep fighting.
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Gutted but to be fair that was a brilliant delivery, I don't think Malan did much wrong.
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No I've got a lot of time for Malan. He was got out rather than getting himself out.
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... and so passes Denethor, son of Ecthelion ... :(
Aussie lead 180-odd. Need to get it below 150 with no more wickets gone. Make the Aussies sweat.
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Fair play England that was a proper performance today both with bat and ball. Still massively in Australia's favour, but just got to chip away. Come on Joe double hundred please.
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What a day of cricket! We have given ourselves a chance, albeit still a pretty slim one. First hour tomorrow will be crucial.
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Fair play England that was a proper performance today both with bat and ball. Still massively in Australia's favour, but just got to chip away. Come on Joe double hundred please.
Not sure he needs that much, what we need here is a couple more partnerships like the root-malan one. Again, avoid looking at it as 177 runs, look at it as 9 lots of 20 runs and tick them off as you work through. Every time you get through a chunk without losing a wicket treat it like getting a fifty or a century and make a big show of celebrating each as a small victory. Do that a few times and the pressure shifts to them and they start looking at a field to save runs as much as take wickets.
We're in no rush, and the longer the day goes the more pressure is on them after they declared in the first and then didn't enforce the follow-on so we need to let them stew. I don't think the wicket looks like doing them many favours either, it looked in really good condition today.
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This is why Test Match cricket is the best and most compelling form of the game. I just dont get people who don't love it, a bit like I don't get glory hunting fans or people who don't like dogs.
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Great days cricket for England, yes it's still a big ask but they have given themselves a chance. The last two days belong to England and are at last are showing some fight. I had already written them off I this game, if England produce a miracle Smith will be having nightmares for not enforcing the follow on and will get pelters from the Aussie press.
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Great days cricket for England, yes it's still a big ask but they have given themselves a chance. The last two days belong to England and are at last are showing some fight. I had already written them off I this game, if England produce a miracle Smith will be having nightmares for not enforcing the follow on and will get pelters from the Aussie press.
Absolutely, and that is why we need to make him feel that pressure, over the top celebrations over every little milestone make it clear that we think we're in control.
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They have go out there with exactly the same attitude they've shown today.
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Great days cricket for England, yes it's still a big ask but they have given themselves a chance. The last two days belong to England and are at last are showing some fight. I had already written them off I this game, if England produce a miracle Smith will be having nightmares for not enforcing the follow on and will get pelters from the Aussie press.
Absolutely, and that is why we need to make him feel that pressure, over the top celebrations over every little milestone make it clear that we think we're in control.
The partnership between Root and Woakes tomorrow morning will be crucial. All attention will be on Root, but Woakes is more than capable of hanging around and can score as well.
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Great days cricket for England, yes it's still a big ask but they have given themselves a chance. The last two days belong to England and are at last are showing some fight. I had already written them off I this game, if England produce a miracle Smith will be having nightmares for not enforcing the follow on and will get pelters from the Aussie press.
He’ll be regretting the wasted reviews too. Whatever ultimately happens in this test it will have given England an unexpected confidence boost. I am doing a spot of decorating this week but not getting started quite so early in the mornings as initially planned.
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Yes I agree whatever the result now this is immense for a confidence boost for the rest of the series. Well done to bowlers for skittling out Aussies. Of course the score is get able it very unlikely.
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This is why Test Match cricket is the best and most compelling form of the game. I just dont get people who don't love it, a bit like I don't get glory hunting fans or people who don't like dogs.
I love Test Match Cricket but can't stand dogs
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Yes I agree whatever the result now this is immense for a confidence boost for the rest of the series. Well done to bowlers for skittling out Aussies. Of course the score is get able it very unlikely.
Unlikely now but if Woakes and Root are still there after half hour or so I think the picture starts to change.
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This is why Test Match cricket is the best and most compelling form of the game. I just dont get people who don't love it, a bit like I don't get glory hunting fans or people who don't like dogs.
I love Test Match Cricket but can't stand dogs
I love Test Match Cricket but not really a fan of dogs.
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The phrase "Mad dogs and Englishmen" is associated with cricket so you have to love both.
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This is why Test Match cricket is the best and most compelling form of the game. I just dont get people who don't love it, a bit like I don't get glory hunting fans or people who don't like dogs.
I love Test Match Cricket but can't stand dogs
I love Test Match Cricket but not really a fan of dogs.
I love Test Match Cricket but am also not really a fan of dogs. (I hate cats too)
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This is why Test Match cricket is the best and most compelling form of the game. I just dont get people who don't love it, a bit like I don't get glory hunting fans or people who don't like dogs.
I love Test Match Cricket but can't stand dogs
I love Test Match Cricket but not really a fan of dogs.
I love Test Match Cricket but am also not really a fan of dogs. (I hate cats too)
I love Test Match cricket and like dogs, but can't stand dog owners on the whole.
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Phwoar, that was a day of cricket. Kudos for the fight back regardless of what happens tomorrow. If Root and Woakes are still going after an hour they will shit themselves.
Also a big well done to the Barmy Army for taking the piss out of the fat kid when he ran out of reviews. And to Root for pissing himself laughing about it.
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Anyone know where to find highlights of each day, I am outside the UK and they are very tough to find.
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It would be really be nice if we could finish the job.
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It would be really be nice if we could finish the job.
It would. It all feels a bit Edgbaston 2005 to me but with the roles reversed.
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It would be really be nice if we could finish the job.
It would. It all feels a bit Edgbaston 2005 to me but with the roles reversed.
What a match that was. They showed highlights on BT Sport yesterday, still gives me goosebumps thinking back to that.
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It would be really be nice if we could finish the job.
It would. It all feels a bit Edgbaston 2005 to me but with the roles reversed.
I agree and, importantly, I don't think they have a bowler with the balls of Flintoff if it does come to that.
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It would be nice to watch highlights. Any ideas if you don't have BT sport?
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They're not all that. We need to see how they cope under real pressure.
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It would be really be nice if we could finish the job.
It would. It all feels a bit Edgbaston 2005 to me but with the roles reversed.
What a match that was. They showed highlights on BT Sport yesterday, still gives me goosebumps thinking back to that.
I was at it. Absolutely tremendous. In fact, I did at least one day at every test that summer bar the final one at the Oval. I was on holiday in Greece and allowed the wife to book then as I presumed we would have lost the series by then. Doh!
Brum 2005 is still famous in our circles for three things. One was my getting abused all the way back to town on the Friday by a convict who couldn't understand why I wouldn't bite. The reason being that he was so sartorially ignorant he mistook "Hackett London" on the back of my t-shirt for something we had printed for the occasion and kept shouting his gobby Aussie chops off at Hackett from London.
Then there was the punch up in the Aussie bar on Broad Street. On the Saturday we went in to continue the party and take the piss after they finished eight down. One of them couldn't take it and whacked my mate (The same one who appeared on the front page of the Sydney paper with me under the caption English Scum in a later series). He proceeded to verbally abuse as many convicts as he could from there onwards before being ejected himself for telling a trappy surfer boy he was a bread stealing ******.
In the interim, I was far too pissed to get involved in such shenanigans but was having a fine time hovering in the background and pulling corks from shackle rattlers hats. Well they took great offence to this and one of them grabbed me by the throat and threatened to bottle me. I was far too drunk so stood there grinning like a Cheshire cat and offering him his corks back. A random English bloke took offence on my behalf and nutter him. There ensued a two minute melee that I avoided by casually taking stupid grin onto Broad Street and catching the bus home (we lived in Bartley Green back then).
I strolled through the front door where the wife to be (who loves cricket herself and had been watching all day on TV) was keen to quiz me about the day. I wasn't so ready and apparently just stared at her, like a dog being shown a card trick such was my inability to conjure up words, before immediately passing out on the sofa.
The Sunday morning is still referred to as GropeGate. The wife is determined to watch the end of the match so drags my sorry arse out of the house early (it was pay on the door). We were in our seats at 9am (The same ones I had been in for my advance purchases for the previous three days). The first pint was hard going but by the start of play I got my mojo back.
You know the drama that ensued that morning and how it finished. A lesser known fact is how I inadvertently felt up the wife of "bread stealing" bloke.
For an Aussie she is quite a good egg.
As the game got tighter we were running through gin like it was water and he too had arrived at the ground in a fearful state. At least back then a two litre bottle of pop wouldn't be questioned by security and so it was that the Aussie birds lemon Fanta was actually half bitter lemon and half Tanqueray.
Anyhow, we get the winning catch. I am in the same seat behind the blokes dressed as Whoopee Cushions, just to the right of them as I had been all week. Eric Hollies, a third of the way up and at the end of an aisle. Bad juju means any other seats for us would be unacceptable.
The trouble was I was next to a bin. One of those round metal ones that looks like a grill all round. This was fine until my gigantic feet (size 13) got tangled between the outside and it's inner skin. We might have won but I was going to stack this one badly.
I reached for Neil behind me. He is a fat fucker and should apply some ballast to the situation. He did. I didn't smash my head open on the steps. Only he didn't.
After regaining my composure, and still clinging on for grim death, I turned to celebrate this most marvellous victory with him. Except he was a seat down in the row behind and pissing himself laughing.
After some brief looks of confusion the full horror of what went on became clear. I had not only used both grabby hands for balancing, then jiggled them whilst celebrating. They weren't his. They belonged to his convict wife. Both ladies took it in good order.
And there tests the case for the defence, Your Honour.
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Fabulous! And so was the story.
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Test cricket at its best. We have a chance. Who’d have thought it?? Tomorrow is another day. First session with old ball, we could be within 80 by lunch. Root / Woakes need to forget their score and start afresh in the morning. Still have Ali and Bairstow. Overton can bat too. 177 before the lights take over isn’t beyond dreams.
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Just imagine if Ben hadn’t had been a silly boy.
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Away from the ashes, how the hell hasn't the test between India and Sri Lanka been abandoned??
Players are vomiting, struggling to breathe and the air pollution is 12 times the acceptable level. Absolutely ludicrous they haven't called this off.
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No matter what position England are in, a dreadful collapse is always a distinct possibility. Ashes well and truly gone now and a 5-0 embarrassement inevitable
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And a fucking joke shot from Moeen against the spin.
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3 wickets for 12 runs today.
Just fuck off England, just fuck off
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Oh well, we flirted with an unlikely victory for about 25 overs yesterday evening only for normal service to be resumed again today.
In reality, this Test was lost on the first day when England just didn't turn up. You cant afford to give the Aussies a head start, especially when the side is as underwhelming as England's, and we just left ourselves way too much to do.
So on to Perth which is an absolute graveyard for England, graveyard for everyone except South Africa in fact (mainly as they've always brought pace in their attack also). It'll be the pitch which suits this Australian attack the best so this is about to get a lot worse before it gets better i'm afraid as this was always penciled in as their banker along with Brisbane.
Not sure if they can tinker that much with the side unless it's to add pace and batsman in form - it's all well and good to drop people but who do they bring in..........
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Normal service resumed then.
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The reality is that our batting simply hasn't got enough. We've scored over 300 once and you're never winning games last like that. We have a lot of work to do to avoid a whitewash.
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No surprise we eventually lost but that was feeble today.
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Thing is the bowling hasn't been good enough up until their second innings, but it's our batting that's the real problem. They're just not getting scores.
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There are a number of realities to be faced.
Firstly we haven’t picked a bowling attack for Australian conditions. We lack pace and bounce to supplement Anderson and Broad. Why Plunkett wasn’t picked I still don’t understand.
Secondly we lack any real solidity at the top of the order. Root should not be batting four he should be batting three. However he doesn’t personally want to by all accounts. With that said we have, in Vince, tried to convert a free flowing one day bat into a test number three. He’s not that. His technique isn’t good enough. We need batsmen who are obdurate. Cook not firing is a problem as well. The odd right hander.
Thirdly we lack the balance that Stokes brings. I know it’s obvious but Ali at eight is a big difference to him batting at six. I don’t even mind, if Stokes is playing putting Ali up to four with Root at three.
Ali isn’t bowling well. The squad we have selected doesn’t really give us an option spin wise. Crane is a leggy and at 21 could end up on the scrap heap if chucked into a test with Warner or Smith in full flow. Where do we turn to?
Finally ... what are we doing winning a toss and bowling first ... in Australia ... with an obviously poorer spinner ... and weaker all our pace attack. Whoever came up with that decision ... well.
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Bunch of bottling twats. Feeble isn’t the word.
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We're just mentally weak, when Woakes went early the correct response should've been for Root to dig in but what happened is he went 2 overs later, once we lost both of them the game was done because it completely changed the balance.
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It may be a completely false impression but I'm sure Root has always struggled the next morning when he's been not out overnight.
England can talk about positives all they want but ultimately they've failed to reach 250 in either innings. There's nothing positive about that. Also all of the digging in yesterday is completely undermined when you lose 6 wickets for 50.
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Perth up next and if ever there was a pitch suited to their attack it's that one. I fear that we will lose heavily and then go on and suffer another whitewash.
The hope that I felt when I woke up this morning soon disappeared when I checked the score.
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There are scant positives for me. Yes Anderson bowled beautifully in their second innings but he was given the opportunity to do that by a ridiculous (even though they've still won comfortably) non enforcing of the follow on.
We'd have been all out for 100 if Smith had put us back in again.
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There are scant positives for me. Yes Anderson bowled beautifully in their second innings but he was given the opportunity to do that by a ridiculous (even though they've still won comfortably) non enforcing of the follow on.
We'd have been all out for 100 if Smith had put us back in again.
I don't agree with that at all. The decision to put us in was terrible because it gave the best swing attack in the world time to bowl in swinging conditions, and all out for 138 is the result of that. Last night in the same conditions shows that Australia don't have the bowlers for it. However they do have them to bowl on a mid-afternoon sun-baked carpark, which is why this morning was the true 'dig-in' session and we got it badly wrong.
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The reasoning for not following on (giving the quicks a break, avoiding the off-chance of a tricky 4th innings chase) was fine, just that it wasn't backed up by good batting, either in the evening or yesterday afternoon, which, when combined with a quality bowling performance was always going to lead the outcome that occurred.
It's not as if England gave much indication from their bowling on the first night that they'd be as good as they turned out to be under lights the second time around.
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Has a team ever lost a series 5-0 whilst winning every toss? England are still on course for this feat.
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The reality is that our batting simply hasn't got enough. We've scored over 300 once and you're never winning games last like that. We have a lot of work to do to avoid a whitewash.
Agree Paul, though collapses have happened on a pretty regular basis for some time now. I do think more recent instances may be down to the fact that three of the top order are not really up to the required standard, but the set up as a whole just don't seem to be interested when the going gets difficult. There just seems to be an attitude of "oh well, we've lost this one, let's just get it over and done with and move on to the next one".
The ironic thing is, after years of struggling in ODI cricket, we now have a very settled and strong batting line up in those formats of the game.
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I think more worrying is Cook's form. His 2017 average is inflated by that double hundred he got against the Windies. Other than that I barely remember him getting a 50. So you've got 3 new guys, all of whom are doing ok at times without getting big scores. Then you have Cook whose getting nothing and Root who is struggling to make significant scores. That's all of the top 5 who don't really look like getting a century and being the foundation of an innings, which is a huge problem.
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I think more worrying is Cook's form. His 2017 average is inflated by that double hundred he got against the Windies. Other than that I barely remember him getting a 50. So you've got 3 new guys, all of whom are doing ok at times without getting big scores. Then you have Cook whose getting nothing and Root who is struggling to make significant scores. That's all of the top 5 who don't really look like getting a century and being the foundation of an innings, which is a huge problem.
Agree with all of that Paul and to top it all off there is no Stokes in this series either.
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Overall squad not good enough, we need to make changes but who it makes taking an untried leg spinner baffling.
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Yes batting is a big issue. Perth is going to be difficult.
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Ali seems to be bearing the brunt of the criticism in the media today,, but at the same time people admitting that playing Crane would be a huge call at this point.
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Moeen is or should be at his prime but has had two awful test matches when we expected him to deliver where it matters most in Australia do I am not surprised he is taking the flak. In my mind the biggest culprits are Cook, Root, Ali and Bairstow.
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Moeen is or should be at his prime but has had two awful test matches when we expected him to deliver where it matters most in Australia do I am not surprised he is taking the flak. In my mind the biggest culprits are Cook, Root, Ali and Bairstow.
Ironic that 3 of the 4 held us together last summer though isn't it? I'd add Broad to your list too, he's been poor with the ball.
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To be fair Ali is injured, he shouldn't be bowling at all until his finger has heeled. It's not his fault that they've selected a second spinner who they clearly have no intention of using.
He got out to a poor shot in the 2nd innings, but it's not like he hadn't at least tried to dig in. When Mo is fully fit he is one of our most important players.
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Cook is the biggest culprit by far.
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Culprit is a bit harsh because it suggests that there's some intent to it. He's in an odd place with his batting, much like Bell was towards the end of his England career, where he's not got any fundamenal problem that is being targeted and he looks well capable of getting big scores still but it's just not working and it's probably driving him mad.
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Not quite sure why Mo is playing in the two-dayer.
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Yeah I didn't really understand that.
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Culprit is a bit harsh because it suggests that there's some intent to it. He's in an odd place with his batting, much like Bell was towards the end of his England career, where he's not got any fundamenal problem that is being targeted and he looks well capable of getting big scores still but it's just not working and it's probably driving him mad.
I always thought that with Bell he'd lost the hunger and was going through the motions. I suspect the same is happening to Cook.
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Not quite sure why Mo is playing in the two-dayer.
Think it’s to try and get some time with the bat....surely he won’t bowl unless his wound has healed fully.
If Leach takes wickets and looks a threat he should be added to squad for next test in case Mo can’t bowl still as it seems they won’t use Crane
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Culprit is a bit harsh because it suggests that there's some intent to it. He's in an odd place with his batting, much like Bell was towards the end of his England career, where he's not got any fundamenal problem that is being targeted and he looks well capable of getting big scores still but it's just not working and it's probably driving him mad.
I always thought that with Bell he'd lost the hunger and was going through the motions. I suspect the same is happening to Cook.
I'm a bit biased when it comes to Ian Bell, but I think his struggles started when they began moving him around the order. He was settled at five and never really looked comfortable when moved up.
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Good to see the Lions are showing the same grit and determination with the bat as the full side.
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More drinking shenanigans with the cricket team, this time Ben Duckett allegedly poured a drink over a senior players head whilst out on the lash.
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Yep if that's true I really wonder about a lot of our players, especially in the context of what's gone on lately.
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So supposedly these are elite athletes...mind boggles. I know they are not supposed to live like hermits but it's getting ridiculous now. Stokes, Bairstow and now Duckett please ut an end to this chaps.
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Send him home as punishment. I don't believe in players being saints, but the time to be getting up to daft antics isn't when you're 2-0 down, a game away from losing the Ashes and looking at a probable whitewash. Fucking idiot.
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Whilst it’s not ideal it does seem to be generating more headlines and attention than it warrants. It was headline news on 5 Live this morning, there were no members of the public present and its somebody who wasn’t going to get into the side. I know it’s different times and all that but compared to Botham’s boorish behaviour throughouthis career, it’s not worth getting upset about.
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It's just the entire context that makes this otherwise minor incident baffling though. The Bairstow thing should have been an absolute non-event, and I highly doubt that Warner brought it up for any reason more than to have a bit of fun with it on the field while it was still reasonably fresh, yet we get a public announcement of a curfew out of that, and Root acting miffed about Smith's behaviour, which then flows into this act suddenly becoming one that's occurring in the context of a recently-concluded curfew
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More drinking shenanigans with the cricket team, this time Ben Duckett allegedly poured a drink over a senior players head whilst out on the lash.
Jimmy’s head was apparently the recipient
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Watching the NZ v WI Test Match
I’d be surprised if there’s more than a couple of hundred people in the ground
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Shame that, I love the NZ cricket venues.
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Watching the NZ v WI Test Match
I’d be surprised if there’s more than a couple of hundred people in the ground
Test cricket over here in NZ is very badly attended. No-one seems particularly interested in the longer form preferring one dayers and rounders. The short form of cricket is killing the game over here.
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Whilst it’s not ideal it does seem to be generating more headlines and attention than it warrants. It was headline news on 5 Live this morning, there were no members of the public present and its somebody who wasn’t going to get into the side. I know it’s different times and all that but compared to Botham’s boorish behaviour throughouthis career, it’s not worth getting upset about.
Aye. This should be a total and utter non story.
One of the decent things about cricket was you could watch international players in an ODI or test and then have a drink with them afterwards. Home side or touring lot.
Players will now be so guarded they'll turn into monotone "at the end of the day" shithouses. With a bit less money.
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I know I'm probably drawing a long bow here but you also have to wonder at Jimmy Anderson's involvement in this, sure he was the recipient but you don't generally get a drink poured over your head for nothing, paricularly when its a junior squad member. Don't forget, Anderson has form for this when he was in cahoots with Swann and Broad when the were winding up KP.
And how on earth, with all that's gone on recently, were they in a bar after Midnight again having the kind of heated arguments that leads to this type of thing. When does someone show the maturity to step in and calms potential situation down before it gets this far. This is looking more and more like a flipping lads holiday.
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I'm beginning to question Bayliss's role in all of this. He gives the impression of a disciplinarian but clearly the players do not respect him or his methods.
It's small incidents being being exaggerated and in isolation they're trivial. However once you consider the individual incidents collectively you begin to question the culture in the squad.
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I know I'm probably drawing a long bow here but you also have to wonder at Jimmy Anderson's involvement in this, sure he was the recipient but you don't generally get a drink poured over your head for nothing, paricularly when its a junior squad member. Don't forget, Anderson has form for this when he was in cahoots with Swann and Broad when the were winding up KP.
And how on earth, with all that's gone on recently, were they in a bar after Midnight again having the kind of heated arguments that leads to this type of thing. When does someone show the maturity to step in and calms potential situation down before it gets this far. This is looking more and more like a flipping lads holiday.
First night after the midnight curfew (imposed after Bairstow's indiscretion) had been lifted apparently. I think it is becoming apparent that there is a problem in that set up both on and off the field.
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The thing is it doesn't really matter how minor the Bairstow incident or this one were. They need to realise they have to behave impeccably or noise will be made. Also when you're 2-0 down and facing right down the barrel then being out on the piss doesn't really send out the right message.
It really does feel like the wheels are off, I would be astounded if we don't hammered in Perth. Our big problem is hardly any of our batsmen, none on this tour, are getting big runs.
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Can someone please explain what is the point of suspending Ben Duckett and then not sending him home. Am I missing the point here?
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Can someone please explain what is the point of suspending Ben Duckett and then not sending him home. Am I missing the point here?
If he comes home he can do whatever he wants over the Christmas period. He’s had problems with alcohol and fitness before and I wouldn’t be surprised if he asked to stay to try to right a few wrongs - be interesting to see if he bucks his ideas up and also whether he gets picked for the lions tour in February. I’d say he’s at a crossroads as far as England chances are concerned
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Wonder what the official beer, lager, wine, cider and champagne sponsors/suppliers of the England cricket team make of it all?
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http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/cricket/ashes-2017-england-facing-massive-task-in-perth-to-try-to-turn-series-around/news-story/833f80aefd86487fa76c3b9d40812169
Aussie press loving it, you cant blame them really..................
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Wonder what the official beer, lager, wine, cider and champagne sponsors/suppliers of the England cricket team make of it all?
That depends on the brand of drink he poured over Jimmy. I hope it was sponsored😂
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Wonder what the official beer, lager, wine, cider and champagne sponsors/suppliers of the England cricket team make of it all?
That depends on the brand of drink he poured over Jimmy. I hope it was sponsored😂
Maybe that's why such a fuss is being made, it wasn't one of the official sponsors.
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I wouldn't change any of the team unless it's a raging turner, but I'd adjust the order:
Cook
Stoneman
Root
Vince
Malan
Bairstow
Moeen
Woakes
Overton
Broad
Anderson
I don't think there are any replacements who can really improve the team now. But that line up breaks up the left handers more and gets Bairstow in earlier. Also Root needs to dominate now, so 3 makes sense.
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I wouldn't change any of the team unless it's a raging turner, but I'd adjust the order:
Cook
Stoneman
Root
Vince
Malan
Bairstow
Moeen
Woakes
Overton
Broad
Anderson
I don't think there are any replacements who can really improve the team now. But that line up breaks up the left handers more and gets Bairstow in earlier. Also Root needs to dominate now, so 3 makes sense.
I think you have to look at Curran given his performance on this surface the other day.
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Like Groundhog Day, 4 down with not much on the board. That Stoneman decision is poor thought I think I don't know how that gets overturned.
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Come Jonny B, Malan and Mo hundreds for each of you please!
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Getting in and getting out............................ again.
Truth is, they aint good enough.
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Come Jonny B, Malan and Mo hundreds for each of you please!
I wish, but we've seen this film before I'm afraid. With a favourable wind we might get to 220-250, but they'll hit somewhere around 400, skittle us and win either by an innings or 10 wickets.
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Stoneman got a shocker off the third umpire, how can the third umpire overall the on field umpire with conclusive proof? Looks like a snick off the helmet or top of his shoulder.
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Stokes is getting back into form, he's just hit 93 off 47 balls for Canterbury.
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This is a 400 + pitch by the sounds of it.
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Not for England it won’t be. Cook fails, again. You can’t keep picking him on this form, beaten by a straight ball again.
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Cook has been a fantastic player for England, but I do wonder whether he has lost that fire.
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Come on England the Australian body language is starting to slip.
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I know Smith is a good batsman but he's a terrible captain at times, why waste a over with a ball that has been used through a 150ish partnership, they should've been desperate to get the new ball and try to force a break through late in the day.
On the flip side this has been an excellent recovery from Malan and Bairstow, this is the sort of spell that we should be able to rely on from our middle order.
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Well played indeed Malan, well played.
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I know Smith is a good batsman but he's a terrible captain at times, why waste a over with a ball that has been used through a 150ish partnership, they should've been desperate to get the new ball and try to force a break through late in the day.
On the flip side this has been an excellent recovery from Malan and Bairstow, this is the sort of spell that we should be able to rely on from our middle order.
Indeed, and just a shame that we haven't got Stokes to add to it. Such a difference when we've got him and Moeen, as usually at least one of them gets a score. Once Ali has gone, that's usually it at the moment, game over. Just hope Malan goes on to make a really big score now, and doesn't get out for 105 or something. If we do get 400+, then it's game on.
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Excellent stuff Malan definitely has something about him. Now keep going boys we need some scoreboard pressure on the Aussies.
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Get in! This is great work from Malan and Bairstow. And Malan gets his first test century and what could well be the most difficult test venue for England players in the world.
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That is an excellent effort from Malan and Bairstow. We are in front in the game after the first day for the first time. Need to make it count now. Malan has shown signs of his ability and grit, really pleased for him.
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Nice to be on top after a days play.
Malan played beautifully and Bairstow dealt with the negative publicity in the most positive way.
The Aussies were clueless and at times looked leaderless and devoid of ideas since lunch. Long may that continue.
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That is an excellent effort from Malan and Bairstow. We are in front in the game after the first day for the first time. Need to make it count now. Malan has shown signs of his ability and grit, really pleased for him.
Yes totally agree. Well done Malan and Bairstow.
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Nice to be on top after a days play.
Malan played beautifully and Bairstow dealt with the negative publicity in the most positive way.
The Aussies were clueless and at times looked leaderless and devoid of ideas since lunch. Long may that continue.
Yes it's nice to be on top after the first day, bit of a rare occurrence against the Aussies at the WACA.
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If only Cook and Root can get their game going😟
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What I saw before I went to work I thought Malan and Bairstow batted brilliantly. Bairstow early in his innings played the short stuff brilliantly.
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Nice to be on top after a days play.
Malan played beautifully and Bairstow dealt with the negative publicity in the most positive way.
The Aussies were clueless and at times looked leaderless and devoid of ideas since lunch. Long may that continue.
As someone said on the BBC website, it is difficult to predict what will happen with this England team though and we could end up being all out for less than 350!!
Regarding the point about the Aussies, I thought they began to look that way at the end of the fourth day in the last test. Had that gone on for another hour or so, I think we would have been looking at a much smaller total on the final day. As it was, they came out firing on the final day and blew us away. That might of course happen tomorrow, but we have got a big opportunity here and need to take it.
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Nice to be on top after a days play.
Malan played beautifully and Bairstow dealt with the negative publicity in the most positive way.
The Aussies were clueless and at times looked leaderless and devoid of ideas since lunch. Long may that continue.
As someone said on the BBC website, it is difficult to predict what will happen with this England team though and we could end up being all out for less than 350!!
Regarding the point about the Aussies, I thought they began to look that way at the end of the fourth day in the last test. Had that gone on for another hour or so, I think we would have been looking at a much smaller total on the final day. As it was, they came out firing on the final day and blew us away. That might of course happen tomorrow, but we have got a big opportunity here and need to take it.
That's the worry. We need Malan and Bairstow to continue tomorrow, but a rested Aussie attack with the new ball are going to come out all guns blazing. If Bairstow and Malan do a Joe Root and get out quickly in the morning, it could well be a 350, which would be hugely disappointing. On the other hand if Bairstow gets his ton, and Malan makes it 150+, with Moeen chipping in, we'd be looking at around the 500 mark which would be fantastic.
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As has been said Malan and Bairstow were superb in that last session, looked in great touch.
We must, must, must make this count though as the outfield is like lightening and the track looks very flat indeed.
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If that was the Aussies on over 300 for four wickets I would be thinking that England have already lost the game, but as it's England we are always liable to a collapse at some point.
Tomorrow is a big day.
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As has been said Malan and Bairstow were superb in that last session, looked in great touch.
We must, must, must make this count though as the outfield is like lightening and the track looks very flat indeed.
That very much sounds like Warner is nailed on for a century...
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Cook fails, again. You can’t keep picking him on this form, beaten by a straight ball again.
As I said after the last test match may be his time has gone. Get Hales over there for Mel and Syd.
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Cook fails, again. You can’t keep picking him on this form, beaten by a straight ball again.
As I said after the last test match may be his time has gone. Get Hales over there for Mel and Syd.
I was scratching my brain to work out who Mel and Syd were and where they batted.
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Number 4 and 5😉
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Cook fails, again. You can’t keep picking him on this form, beaten by a straight ball again.
As I said after the last test match may be his time has gone. Get Hales over there for Mel and Syd.
Cook is only 32 (33 in a couple of weeks). He should have 3 or 4 years left at the top level. He's just in a bit of a rut against quality new ball bowling. I wouldn't expect this to be a career ender.
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It depends on whether he still has the desire. If he wants to pull it back he can, if he doesn't have that desire anymore he won't.
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I hear what you are saying OzVilla but age thing is different for different people. Some players stick around at 30 plus others disappear over the cliff age alarmingly. I hope Cook can regain his desire but so far in 5 innings he has let the side and himself down badly.
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200 partnership up for Bairstow and Malan,
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Bairstow 100 up, get in.
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Crap shot from Moeen, out for a second ball duck.
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Jeez, good one England.
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All out for 403. Last 6 wickets for 35. Showed very little ticker. I fear 403 probably wont be enough on this deck with this outfield. Australia suddenly have momentum. We do know how to shoot ourselves in the foot.
Need to bowl and catch really well.
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Fucking shit. We'll lose this now.
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6-35 is fucking pathetic. Incredible effort from Malan and Bairstow, absolutely hopeless from those that followed. Bowlers owe a big performance now.
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I can see Aus getting about 550 now.
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Get out! Now get Smith.
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So extras outscored six of our line up. I think we should move him up the order.
A good start but we need Smith out soon.
As an aside here's yet another Aussie captain that I don't like or respect. The only recent captain that I had a begrudging respect for was Ponting. Do they instruct them to be as obnoxious and self-centred as possible? Border, Taylor and Waugh weren't like that.
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We really need another couple of quick wickets to get on top.
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Smith is going to get a double hundred here.
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Missed a golden opportunity to make the kind of score which would really put us in a really strong position.
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It's a staggeringly poor collapse to be 369-4 and then within a few hours the game is evenly balanced, if not in Australia's favour.
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Woke up this morning and expected us to still be batting, with well over 500 on the board. FFS.
We'll draw this, at best.
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It's a dismal effort from the tail, really pathetic. Malan and Bairstow did more than anybody could expect and then to offer up no resistance was awful.
Here's one that not many seem to have mentioned, if Broad doesn't do something pretty special in the rest of this game I'd consider dropping him for the next game mainly because his batting infuriates me. He has much more talent he shows and he appears to put not effort in to dig in.
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Missed chance.
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Broad is shit scared of fast bowling. That's why he bats like he does, he's just not up for it when there's pace around.
I appreciate the lack of talent or form with the bat means you can look ungainly as a lower order player but to consistantly shit the bed like he does isn't fucking on anymore.
We basically play with 9 batters + 2 that really don't want to be out there. And the Aussies know it too.
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9 batters is generous based on the performances of most of them.
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What are the odds Smith is still batting this time tomorrow.
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What are the odds Smith is still batting this time tomorrow.
And what are the odds they surpass England's score in the first session tomorrow? I think they will, and probably for the loss of no further wickets.
Every Ashes morning when I wake up and check the sport I always have the faint hope that the headline will surprise me ... but invariably I read about the feeble collapse.
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Desperately needed that wicket, need a couple more quick ones.
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Kawaja gone after a very tight review.
Broad may just have won a reprieve with Overton going off injured. 5 wickets for 200-odd runs is unacceptable though.
Yet more dissent from Smith after that the Kawaja review. He's a total knob.
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Broad is shit scared of fast bowling. That's why he bats like he does, he's just not up for it when there's pace around.
I appreciate the lack of talent or form with the bat means you can look ungainly as a lower order player but to consistantly shit the bed like he does isn't fucking on anymore.
We basically play with 9 batters + 2 that really don't want to be out there. And the Aussies know it too.
There are worse batsmen than Broad opening the batting!
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Broad needs to actually contribute.
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Another drop.
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Another drop.
I think Bairstow put Stoneman off there.
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Normal service resumed and Australia's day. I really hope to be surprised, but I expect when I wake up tomorrow they'll be 300 ish having lost no wickets, or possible one.
The last 6 wickets falling for 35 has really badly knocked us back. The platform that Malan and Bairstow provided should have led to a score of 500+.
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Andy Zaltzman's stat he just provided illustrates the difference.
1st innings in the 3 Tests: Smith 273 for 1. Root & Cook 90 for 6.
He might be annoying, but he's stepping up for his team when our premier players are not.
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Normal service resumed and Australia's day. I really hope to be surprised, but I expect when I wake up tomorrow they'll be 300 ish having lost no wickets, or possible one.
The last 6 wickets falling for 35 has really badly knocked us back. The platform that Malan and Bairstow provided should have led to a score of 500+.
And given the Aussies a real boost at the same time.
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Steve Smith a class above the rest.
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Our last 5 wickets have gone down for an average 72 runs this series. Add that to the continual failings from Cook et al and you can see why this is going to be 5-0.
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There are severe storms forecast for Sunday & Monday in Perth:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/features/42365691
Looks like the weather may help us avoid a whitewash.
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With or without the weather I don't think we'll lose this match.
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I’m going out on a limb and expect to find out in the morning that Australia have gone past our score and taken early wickets.
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Well as predictable as our batting collapse Smith has got another century and a double doesn't look out of the question , you have to wonder at the captains tactics you may as well attack the stumps rather than hope he'll get bored and make a mistake. I just hope we can get a first innings lead.
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Pitch is an absolute road.
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Pitch is an absolute road.
Yes it is, plus the outfield is like lightening. 400 is barely par on this deck and England are finding this out the hard way.
In fairness we've not been blown away, we've had opportunities in every Test so far and we've just not taken any. Yesterday was just another example. We'll be well behind on 1st innings now.
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With or without the weather I don't think we'll lose this match.
Hope you haven’t put any money on that Chris. It’s entirely possible Australia won’t need to bat again.
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Our batting effort shown to be woefully inadequate. We're making a decent Australian side look fucking outstanding.
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Without Stokes our Test side really lacks inspiration. If we're ever going to be a top side we're going to have to learn to play outside our home conditions. But that isn't the only issue, we'be batted pretty poorly in our home conditions, it's just if it swings we can get teams out cheaply.
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I think after this and our last away tour where, baring rain, there's a very good chance we'll have lost 9 of 10 Test matches. There needs to be a look at the development of our side.
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Without Stokes our Test side really lacks inspiration. If we're ever going to be a top side we're going to have to learn to play outside our home conditions. But that isn't the only issue, we'be batted pretty poorly in our home conditions, it's just if it swings we can get teams out cheaply.
I said before the series losing Stokes and Mark Wood mortally wounds England in Australia as there goes our attack, we lack pace and aggression the 2 ingredients pretty much essential to winning here.
Overton has done well all things considering but Woakes has been useless, Moen has barely turned a ball while Anderson and Broad look pedestrian in comparison the the Aussies.
As for the batting, when James Vince is your Test no3 you've got serious issues. And as for the ore series hyped battle of the Captains, well Joe Root is so far behind Steve Smith he's barely in the same time zone.
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Stokes is a huge blow, don't know about Wood purely because he's rarely fit enough to get up to 90mph even when he plays.
All the talk prior to the series was Cook and Root vs Smith. Smith has absolutely crushed them, not even a contest.
At the moment it's just waiting for the declaration and the collapse for England to be 3 or 4 down for 80 odd.
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I think that this series will mark the end of Cook and Broad who have been ineffective. I expect Anderson to follow them soon after. Then we are left with an even poorer squad. I'm not hopeful about the immediate future.
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Stoneman, Malan and Overton have enhanced their reputations so far. They'd be the only 3.
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It is frustrating as the only time they have been remotely under pressure when Root and Malan were batting in Adelaide, Smith was all over the shop as a captain.
Root seems burdened by the captaincy, Smith energised, presumably because Smith's bowling attack is so much more potent in Aussie conditions.
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I suppose it shouldn't be a surprise given that we had a competitive series against the Windies, who have been smashed by New Zealand.
There needs to be a major focus on the Test team now, because it's not good enough. Our top order has consistently failed as a unit for a couple of years and our bowlers can't do anything without helpful conditions.
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It is frustrating as the only time they have been remotely under pressure when Root and Malan were batting in Adelaide, Smith was all over the shop as a captain.
Root seems burdened by the captaincy, Smith energised, presumably because Smith's bowling attack is so much more potent in Aussie conditions.
Root's burdened because all of his senior players have failed him, particularly in this match.
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Stokes is a huge blow, don't know about Wood purely because he's rarely fit enough to get up to 90mph even when he plays.
All the talk prior to the series was Cook and Root vs Smith. Smith has absolutely crushed them, not even a contest.
At the moment it's just waiting for the declaration and the collapse for England to be 3 or 4 down for 80 odd.
Think that's optimistic. We'll be 5 or 6 down for 80 odd. As soon as we collapsed this game was gone. Massive momentum shift. I said pre-series we should drop Broad and I was right. There might not be many alternatives out there but he's finished as a useful player. He can't bat any more and his occasional inspirational bowling spells have dried up.
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Overton is the only bowler who is coming out of this series with any credit at the moment
. Yes Anderson and Woakes did well under lights at Adelaide, but that's proved to be an anomaly. It's only Overton that's looked remotely threatening.
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What are the odds Smith is still batting this time tomorrow.
Or tomorrow?
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Depressing stuff for England fans, when we eventually go back into bat you just know that the Aussie bowlers will tear into England.
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Broad getting destroyed.
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Need to hold out for a draw and, erm, win both of the last two tests. We're fucked
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Malan has bowled nicely, he's going to be the positive from this tour.
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Malan has bowled nicely, he's going to be the positive from this tour.
I'd agree with that, I like the guy's attitude
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This is torture
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That's 346-1 for the day. Wow! Well batted Australia but fuck me.
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England need a genuine root and branch look at the players we're developing. With all our resources we should be developing players who can add value in all conditions.
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England need a genuine root and branch look at the players we're developing. With all our resources we should be developing players who can add value in all conditions.
Funny you say that, Australia said exactly the same thing 2 years ago and probably will in 2 years time. They don't win away much either.
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Difference is their bowling attack could potentially bowl teams out in any conditions. Plus Smith is a superstar and miles better than our batsmen.
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It is frustrating as the only time they have been remotely under pressure when Root and Malan were batting in Adelaide, Smith was all over the shop as a captain.
Root seems burdened by the captaincy, Smith energised, presumably because Smith's bowling attack is so much more potent in Aussie conditions.
Root's burdened because all of his senior players have failed him, particularly in this match.
Cook has struggled for a while now, but is opening up against high quality very fast bowling.
Anderson and Broad too, but then they were never going to be bowling at 90 mph. This pitch is a road when it is coming down at 82 mph.
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Cook has struggled for a while now, but is opening up against high quality very fast bowling.
Anderson and Broad too, but then they were never going to be bowling at 90 mph. This pitch is a road when it is coming down at 82 mph.
Isn't that what openers are supposed to do? And the Aussie attack is very good, but they're not at the McGrath/Younis/Donald level.
This tour is going to be one of the most depressing for a while, and there's a fair bit of competition for that. For two Aussie players to get 200 in an innings, it just shows how pedestrian our attack is, even given the batting surface.
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England need a genuine root and branch look at the players we're developing. With all our resources we should be developing players who can add value in all conditions.
Funny you say that, Australia said exactly the same thing 2 years ago and probably will in 2 years time. They don't win away much either.
I think that is a sign of a lack of genuine top class players in both countries and perhaps all test playing nations. The sort that can perform whatever the conditions, not just those that favour them, are thin on the ground at the moment.
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Difference is their bowling attack could potentially bowl teams out in any conditions. Plus Smith is a superstar and miles better than our batsmen.
But his attck couldn't beat Bangladesh a few months ago and got walloped by India. Australian conditions are pretty much unique, that's not to say we haven't done anything but a feeble defence of he Ashes but this lot are (were) 5th in the world, they ain't that good.
We are in the midst of a tour from hell which started when Ben Stokes decided to be a 'have a go hero'.
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Mitchell Marsh's innings must be one of the most amazing knocks in Ashes tests, considering his record to date. Prior to this test, he has played 21 tests averaging 21, and he goes onto to hit 181 no off 234 balls at a strike rate of 77.
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There are also baffling selections like Vince and Ballance. Both of whom have done nothing to address the issues that found them wanting at Test level before. I realise that Ballance hasn't played but that's kind of the point, you've got a batsman who is putting no pressure on those in the team. Plus they leave out Plunkett who appears to be the only bowler who could offer something different.
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Mitchell Marsh's innings must be one of the most amazing knocks in Ashes tests, considering his record to date. Prior to this test, he has played 21 tests averaging 21, and he goes onto to hit 181 no off 234 balls at a strike rate of 77.
It's a great knock, but he was also facing a bowling attack who other than Overton, who battled bravely through injury, offered zero threat.
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Difference is their bowling attack could potentially bowl teams out in any conditions. Plus Smith is a superstar and miles better than our batsmen.
But his attck couldn't beat Bangladesh a few months ago and got walloped by India. Australian conditions are pretty much unique, that's not to say we haven't done anything but a feeble defence of he Ashes but this lot are (were) 5th in the world, they ain't that good.
We are in the midst of a tour from hell which started when Ben Stokes decided to be a 'have a go hero'.
They didn't get walloped, it was 2-1 and it mostly came down to no one being able to support Smith, there was only one innings where the Indian batting order really flexed their muscles. Likewise in Bangladesh, and let's just say it was much closer to a 2-0 sweep to Australia than to Bangladesh.
Might not be that good overall, but excellent at home - since the 2010/11 Ashes, by my count, they've lost two series to South Africa, drawn a two-test series with New Zealand and beaten everyone else handily. I get that it's not much consolation to England, but no reason to die of embarrassment either.
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''Watching from side on our body language was good. We stuck at it, we just weren't quite good enough. We think we've done pretty well today."
That's from Paul Farbrace, fucking hell. Now I appreciate you don't want to through your players under the bus, but there is no way of spinning what happened today as doing 'pretty well'.
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With or without the weather I don't think we'll lose this match.
I don't think we'll lose this match if it chucks it down for the remainder of the match.
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The outcome of this game looks fairly predictable already. The Aussies will bat most of tomorrow getting a lead of around 300, put us into bat and we'll get skittled before lunch on the last day.
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http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/21781972/sense-inevitability-england-toil-trouble
I really like George Dobell's writing.
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Unless theres a lot of rain, there just isn't the character or fight in the batting lineup to survive on even a pitch as roadlike as this. 400 has been shown to be woefully inadequate.
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2 DRS reviews have gone our way to get rid of the incumbent centurions.
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Well that’s much better but the horse has bolted.
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20 minutes and 3 wickets down. what a difference a day makes
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3 down!
I agree that the horse has long since galloped off, Mr. Aftab.
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This actually suits Australia. Our only hope was Aussies batting too long.
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Yep. Can see us all out for less than 100 now the pitch is offering a little assistance
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These cracks are really opening up now. Root has won every toss in this series so to bat first yet still end up with the probability of batting last on the surface resembling the Grand Canyon is particularly galling.
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60 overs till the end of the day. Can't see us surviving them
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I'll happily put analysis of the actual cricket aside for a moment to mourn the absence of Johnathon Agnew from TMS. Badly missed and compounded by the seemingly ubiquitous Swann.
Still, no need to listen until next summer now is there?
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England should declare now and save any further embarrassment. Then Cook and Root can pour drinks over each other in the bar and we can send the useless pair of twazzocks home.
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Suspect it's different for those who watch him more often, but having only seen Vince in these Ashes, he really does look like someone worth persisting with at least a little, although maybe down the order.
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He's too flashy to bat at 3. Malan looks more like a 3 and Vince like a 5.
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The ball that got Vince out.... unbelievable.
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This 'Rain' guy seems to have steadied the ship in this innings. If he can bat for a decent part of tomorrow we might save this.
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Well done Cook and Root really stood up for us fought well....
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Vince shouldn't get criticised for his effort in the second innings, he dug in and was got out by a great delivery.
Root's dismissal was the absolute opposite, and he has been blown away by Smith in terms of leading from the front. He's still a good player, but I'm not sure he can be categorised alongside Smith, Kohli or Williamson.
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If Root is to get to the level of those guys he has to score more match defining hundreds. The Aussie batting line-up isn't great but they are lifted by the quality of Smith.
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Vince batted beautifully but got done by one that hit the crack, it looked great and was most certainly unplayable but also it was typical of Englands luck, Kookaburra balls don't do when they're brand new let alone 35 overs old.
Out of the established players Cook, Root, Anderson and Broad, not one has stood up on this tour, in fact i believe Broad's just recorded his worst bowling figures of his Test career from memory 138-0.
Maybe Nathan Lyon will get some scalps after all.
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Well done Cook and Root really stood up for us fought well....
I am afraid those two must carry the burden for losing the Ashes. 12 yes twelve innings from England’s elite batsmen have delivered circa 200 runs😥😥😥
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This 'Rain' guy seems to have steadied the ship in this innings. If he can bat for a decent part of tomorrow we might save this.
Yes I think Rain as opener would be very effective just now. It will at least damp down Australians.
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On the weather, they are expecting rain and extremely strong winds overnight and into the morning but improving as the day goes on. Sounds like the early start may not happen.
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Good. Any chance of WACA being totally underwater?
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Yes, if we can arrange for a James Bond style baddie to shine an intergalactic laser beam on to Antartica and melt the ice sheet in time for the start of play, however I do acknowledge that this is somewhat of a hammer to smash an egg with.
Other than that a 40/60% chance of between 10-20mm throughout the day.
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The ball that got Vince out.... unbelievable.
Ball ended up 42cm away from where the original trajectory indicated it would go.
No chance of keeping it out
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Vince batted beautifully but got done by one that hit the crack, it looked great and was most certainly unplayable but also it was typical of Englands luck, Kookaburra balls don't do when they're brand new let alone 35 overs old.
Out of the established players Cook, Root, Anderson and Broad, not one has stood up on this tour, in fact i believe Broad's just recorded his worst bowling figures of his Test career from memory 138-0.
Maybe Nathan Lyon will get some scalps after all.
I agree with you on the senior players not standing up, apart from Anderson who has bowled well (1st day at Adelaide aside) He is still operating at a very high level.
Broad has been poor and has had a poor year in total. Despite him being younger than Anderson, it appears he is the one in decline
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Yes at times he has bowled well but that 1st innings at Adelaide was England's best chance and Anderson responded by bowling atrociously.
That was when he needed to make it count, 2nd innings wickets like yesterdays when the games effectively over is basically putting lipstick on pig.
And plus there's the 'Ducket incident' when with all thats gone on before we find he was back out on the piss again.
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The Hessian has been breached. Stoopid Western Roos don't do rain.
Sack the sack!
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2017/12/18/248d0745-734d-4f59-ad63-d310efaa5648.jpg)
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It’s going to start raining at 3.00pm local time so just hang in there England.
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As massive as the gulf has been between Smith and Root so far in this series the one between Lyon and Moeen is probably greater.
Lyon gets him yet again, Moeen's confidence must be in bits.
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Also Lyon is a proper spinner.
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That’s it there Ashes gone with Malan.
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It's been another, as expected, weak effort. In recent years our all rounders have been a point of difference but unfortunately Stokes got himself suspended and Ali and Woakes have been in atrocious form. They've been able to help cover the top order failings before, but not this tour.
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England have been unbelievably predictable. No fight no guts.
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A really pathetic showing from England.
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Dreadful end. Ali joins Root and Cook on the naughty step.
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Fucking boo.
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It's been another, as expected, weak effort. In recent years our all rounders have been a point of difference but unfortunately Stokes got himself suspended and Ali and Woakes have been in atrocious form. They've been able to help cover the top order failings before, but not this tour.
Yep Paul. 6-11 has been our strength over the past couple of years, but we have fallen apart in that area on this tour. The lack of fight we have shown has been very disappointing and we look like a broken side.
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Fair play to Australia, pretty much every player in their side has made a contribution at some point. Warner has had a quiet series by his standards but all the new guys have done well and the main players have all stood up.
England, well I've been here for two 5-0 series previously and this feels the same, we've had a few players tat have stood up, Malan, Stoneman, Bairstow and Overton but those that have poor have been really poor.
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Rubbish..........
Ali and Cook are in the "last chance saloon" and have to produce in the 4th Test
Overton was very brave today but is injured so will need to be replaced by...........Wood if fit or Curran or maybe even Crane
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Plunkett and Wood ought to have played. We need players capable of banging it down at 90mph with consistency. Its no good medium paces dobbing it down on fast, flat pitches, regardless of how good in English conditions they are.
Given what a shambles the tour has been, I don't see why having Stokes out there would have been a problem. Its been handled appallingly. Strauss, personal circumstances as bad as they are, has to look at himself.
Vince and Malan are bright spots, as was Overton. Shame about his ribs, but his height added something.
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Rubbish..........
Ali and Cook are in the "last chance saloon" and have to produce in the 4th Test
Overton was very brave today but is injured so will need to be replaced by...........Wood if fit or Curran or maybe even Crane
Bit harsh for Ali to be in last chance saloon, he's had a really poor tour but he's also been injured and was very good in the summer. He deserves more time. Cook has had a poor 2017, with the exception of one stand out innings, and Broad has had a really poor 2017. Those two should be the most under threat.
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Plunkett and Wood ought to have played. We need players capable of banging it down at 90mph with consistency. Its no good medium paces dobbing it down on fast, flat pitches, regardless of how good in English conditions they are.
Given what a shambles the tour has been, I don't see why having Stokes out there would have been a problem. Its been handled appallingly. Strauss, personal circumstances as bad as they are, has to look at himself.
Vince and Malan are bright spots, as was Overton. Shame about his ribs, but his height added something.
Agree with that Ads. Stokes could have played in these three tests at least and it has been handled poorly.
For the first time, I am a little concerned about us going forward as a test team. I just can't see where the next group of players are coming from.
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Now the series has been lost I actually hope Stokes doesn't play even if they decide on no charges being laid.
The tone was set when he did what he did so he can fuck off and miss the whole lot as far as im concerned. It also would be a terrible PR move so I'd rather we kept our dignity on who represents England.
Granted I'd probably feel differently if it were 2-2 going into Sydney.
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I agree OzVilla. Stokes needs to sort himself out before he gets close to England team again. There is unpublished stuff about him in India whilst on IPL jaunts that’s very unpleasant.
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He laid out two people being homophobic and trying to bottle his mates. Its not professional, but I'm of the so what persuasion.
Talking about bad PR as we bend over down under again. The only PR that matters is what we do out in the middle.
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Plunkett should have played, not sure about Wood. Wood is fine if he is absolutely 100% fit, but if he's not his pace drops of significantly and therefore offers nothing.
Craig Overton has been good, because he can get some bounce. His brother bowls around 90mph when he's fit, so hopefully he'll be in at some point.
Last year we said we couldn't compete with India because we didn't have high quality spin, and this year we can't compete with Australia because we don't produce fast bowlers. Both of those things need to be addressed, and with the amount of resources they have the ECB should be able to do something about it.
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As an aside I think the really concerning senior player is Broad. Root will come back to form, although I think certainly for the time being Smith has answered all questions as to who the better player is. Cook has been poor, but he looks in terrible nick, so there is a chance that if he got the hunger back he could find form again.
Broad on the other hand just looks to have lost his zip and bounce and that's been the case throughout 2017. His issue doesn't look like form, he looks like genuine decline.
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Fucking boo.
Thank You Fred MacAulay
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The Ashes is the pinnacle of English Test cricket.
Why is it a surprise to us that we cannot take 20 wickets and put the Aussies under pressure when you have medium pace bowlers trying to swing a ball in conditions where it wont move. Once that Kookaburra ball gets 10-15 overs old you get no assistance from it. You need real pace on their flat pitches to put them under the kosh as they do with us.
Part of it is the conditions. You dont need spin or raw pace as you will take wickets in England at 83mph with the movement you get. We should be packing players off to play down under in the winter before the Ashes to give them a feel for Sheffield Shield cricket and flat pitches where you toil unless you can make one zip through.
We'd have been better off with Mills and his back injury bowling 4 overs a day than Broad. His form is rank and he's become a coward with the bat.
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Hopefully the focus will turn to proper cricket instead of the smash it out of the park version and we'll start to produce more four and five day specialists.
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I doubt it, with two T20 tournaments in prospect!
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Broad's batting is infuriating. His talent far exceeds his application.
His bowling is a bigger worry though, he's been rubbish this year and that is including his time playing in favourable English conditions.
Woakes has been really poor this tour as well, either bowled too short or too full.
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Oh well. I'm looking on the bright side, no more Ashes Lag at work, BT's viewing figures plummeting and not having to listen to that fuckin' pratt on TMS.
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The Ashes is the pinnacle of English Test cricket.
Why is it a surprise to us that we cannot take 20 wickets and put the Aussies under pressure when you have medium pace bowlers trying to swing a ball in conditions where it wont move. Once that Kookaburra ball gets 10-15 overs old you get no assistance from it. You need real pace on their flat pitches to put them under the kosh as they do with us.
Part of it is the conditions. You dont need spin or raw pace as you will take wickets in England at 83mph with the movement you get. We should be packing players off to play down under in the winter before the Ashes to give them a feel for Sheffield Shield cricket and flat pitches where you toil unless you can make one zip through.
We'd have been better off with Mills and his back injury bowling 4 overs a day than Broad. His form is rank and he's become a coward with the bat.
The authorities need to look at test cricket and ask themselves what they need to do to make the game competitive at test level again. It’s absolutely pointless if every single series ends in a walloping, I want to see well fought, close games. Not drubbings because nobody can deal with Aussie pace, Indian spinners or English swing. It all feels a bit broken at the moment.
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In fairness most teams have competed in England lately, but I take your point. I'll say one thing to Aus they produce true pitches and let their skills do the talking. All the other countries try to doctor the pitch to favour them. That's part of the problem.
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In fairness most teams have competed in England lately, but I take your point. I'll say one thing to Aus they produce true pitches and let their skills do the talking. All the other countries try to doctor the pitch to favour them. That's part of the problem.
The Aussies don't need to doctor their pitches against most sides, the ball alone pushes you to the point where only top end pace (or spinners who aren't trying to get much spin) is effective. Some sort of standardisation there would be a big improvement straight away.
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Absolutely not in favour of any sort of "standardisation". Aussies "doctor" their pitches just as much as the English, the Indians and anyone does. To be the best you have to do it away from your natural environment. That is the true test of a cricketer so rather than talking about pitches prepare properly. No one moaned about pitches when West Indies and England were winning Tests in Australia and almost every top Country turned up in England and won the series.
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We should be packing players off to play down under in the winter before the Ashes to give them a feel for Sheffield Shield cricket and flat pitches where you toil unless you can make one zip through
This.
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The Australian pitches aren’t doctored, they play well to bat on but if you’re a very good bowler you’ll be rewarded. That’s what you want from a Test pitch.
You can have some local nuance, like in England you’ll nearly always get movement in the air. But fundamentally all pitches should offer a chance with bat and ball across 5 days.
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I agree that the ECB/Counties failing to prepare players is the main issue and that extends to familiarity with the ball as much as the conditions.
Standardisation probably isn't a good idea, I was just responding to the idea that the aussies don't doctor their pitches, as I say they've created a ball which they all grow up with and that is perfectly suited to the bowlers they produce so they don't need to do anything different with the pitches, the home advantage is baked in from the very beginning. That's sort of true for all countries but the Duke ball does offer something to all types of bowlers and the English county game is much happier to bring international players in so 'our' home advantage is greatly lessened.
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That's fine and I don't disagree, but there needs to be a standard quality created across pitch and ball. Wherever Test cricket is played it should be a fair contest between bat and ball and the very best players should rise to the top.
Lyon is a good example, the pitches in Australia don't favour conventional spinners, but he's made himself into an outstanding bowler and he's been critical this series.
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You can have some local nuance, like in England you’ll nearly always get movement in the air. But fundamentally all pitches should offer a chance with bat and ball across 5 days.
All pitches around the world do give the same chance with ball and bat providing you have the players with required skill and talent.
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To an extent, but I think for instance if you're a batsman in Abu Dhabi you'll get a massive amount of runs and if you're a spin bowler in India you'll get a lot of wickets. That's not reflecting immense skill, more that people don't experience those conditions often. You absolutely want variation across the world, but it should be within a reasonable range of variation. That will promote compelling contests and drive the very best to the top of the game.
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We should be packing players off to play down under in the winter before the Ashes to give them a feel for Sheffield Shield cricket and flat pitches where you toil unless you can make one zip through
This.
Never going to happen, the are only 6 States playing Sheffield Shield so they don't really allow overseas players to play in the way our county sides do. Grade cricket is the only way to get experience which in fairness virtually every good young English cricketer has experienced over the years, but the structure is for 2 day matches played over 2 consecutive weekends.
I played in the Midlands and then Surrey we always had A grade Aussies over for the English summer as our overseas pro - you were allowed one paid overseas pro per team and we got them straight out of the academy which was then centered in Adelaide. They basically all said that the Cricket is much tougher in Oz and that you valued your wicket very highly as if you got out cheaply on the first Saturday you'd be watching for the rest of the day and then fielding the next week - then if the Skipper lost the toss in the next game you'd be in the field again, it could be 3 weeks between innings. So you really valued your wicket. The UK format was that we batted every weekend in a 60 overs format. They loved that as failure didn't have such greater consequences as they'd still bat every week. They were tough cricketers too.
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Good info OzVilla and the toughness thing is important.
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What changes (if any) would the H&V selection committee make for Melbourne ?
I assume that Overton won't play due to injury.
Broad and Moeen both should be dropped. Broad is struggling with the ball due to injury and lack of form. He has also completely lost confidence as a batter since he was hit.
In light of being in Lyon's pocket as a batter, Moeen needs to be spinning it a mile to be worth a place in the team. Again, injury and lack of form is preventing this.
I've no clue what can be done about the batting. It's not like Root or Cook are going to be left out and, in any case, there's no real alternatives.
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It doesn't matter what we do this series is lost ,if we had better alternatives in the squad we should have been ruthless and made changes after the second test.
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You can coach players through to bowl at 90mph. Speed is a skill, its nothing innate, we're just not making efforts to produce players to do this. This is the series we all want to win, so why aren't the ECB putting in place the coaches and the programmes to support the counties in producing this.
Financial incentives to produce leg spinners, produce fast bowlers beyond the medium pace dobber who can swing and reverse it a little in overcast English green top pitches.
Get them to Australia, get them to South Africa- experience flat and bouncy pitches and something different than the Duke ball.
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Wood should come in for Broad. Crane for Moeen? Does it really matter if we weaken the lower order?
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I wouldn't drop Moeen, he was excellent in the summer and has had a poor few games.
As an aside good to hear Overton state he can get balls up around 87/88 mph and he's working on sustaining that pace.
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What changes (if any) would the H&V selection committee make for Melbourne ?
I assume that Overton won't play due to injury.
Broad and Moeen both should be dropped. Broad is struggling with the ball due to injury and lack of form. He has also completely lost confidence as a batter since he was hit.
In light of being in Lyon's pocket as a batter, Moeen needs to be spinning it a mile to be worth a place in the team. Again, injury and lack of form is preventing this.
I've no clue what can be done about the batting. It's not like Root or Cook are going to be left out and, in any case, there's no real alternatives.
I don't really see the point in making a lot of changes now too be honest. The three batsmen we were all concerned about before the tour started have done OK and probably deserve to keep their places in the remaining two tests. I suppose we could have a look at Foakes keeping and play Bairstow solely as a batsman. I suppose Curran and Crane could also be given a chance, but I would be wary of thrusting them into this mess.
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You can coach players through to bowl at 90mph. Speed is a skill, its nothing innate, we're just not making efforts to produce players to do this. This is the series we all want to win, so why aren't the ECB putting in place the coaches and the programmes to support the counties in producing this.
Financial incentives to produce leg spinners, produce fast bowlers beyond the medium pace dobber who can swing and reverse it a little in overcast English green top pitches.
Get them to Australia, get them to South Africa- experience flat and bouncy pitches and something different than the Duke ball.
The bold bit is key, those players are no more effective in English conditions that medium pace swingers and hard to dominate offies but they require specialist coaching and, in the case of the leggies, huge amounts of game time to build up the experience needed. Given the already perilous finances for many of the counties they're just not going to take that on unless they get incentives.
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That's why I'm suggesting an incentive from the ECB. Heck, pay the Indian states to take players on.
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I dont think its about pace bowling.. Glen McGrath was never express pace and he took 500+ wickets, in the later years of his career, Ryan Harris wasnt express pace and he caused England all sorts of problems. The Waugh brothers were handy bowlers and neither had express pace... all took plenty of wickets in Australian conditions with the Kookaburra ball.
If you are bowling around the 85mph mark then line and length are key, thats where the English bowling unit failed, not because of a lack of pace, but because they consistently bowled the wrong length and didnt bowl with enough control.
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I dont think its about pace bowling.. Glen McGrath was never express pace and he took 500+ wickets, in the later years of his career, Ryan Harris wasnt express pace and he caused England all sorts of problems. The Waugh brothers were handy bowlers and neither had express pace... all took plenty of wickets in Australian conditions with the Kookaburra ball.
If you are bowling around the 85mph mark then line and length are key, thats where the English bowling unit failed, not because of a lack of pace, but because they consistently bowled the wrong length and didnt bowl with enough control.
If you're a medium pace bowler used to that ball and those pitches then you naturally bowl fuller than a traditional 'good' length so your natural action and style is effective because you're bowling at the top of 3rd/4th stump and forcing batsman to play almost every delivery. If you're a medium pacer in English conditions you can't bowl that length consistently or you'll get driven out of the attack so you have to bowl shorter and slightly wider and concentrate on taking edges rather than hitting the stumps. That's why getting the bowlers a lot more time in those conditions would be good for us.
Quicks have more room for error if they don't get the length quite right which is why they have less problems translating performances onto those pitches.
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That's why I'm suggesting an incentive from the ECB. Heck, pay the Indian states to take players on.
I'd personally see if we could make some arrangements with the West Indies, helps us with the real pace bowlers and gets some money into the test game for them. Could probably work with somewhere like Bangladesh as well to help the spinners.
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I dont think its about pace bowling.. Glen McGrath was never express pace and he took 500+ wickets, in the later years of his career, Ryan Harris wasnt express pace and he caused England all sorts of problems. The Waugh brothers were handy bowlers and neither had express pace... all took plenty of wickets in Australian conditions with the Kookaburra ball.
If you are bowling around the 85mph mark then line and length are key, thats where the English bowling unit failed, not because of a lack of pace, but because they consistently bowled the wrong length and didnt bowl with enough control.
If you're a medium pace bowler used to that ball and those pitches then you naturally bowl fuller than a traditional 'good' length so your natural action and style is effective because you're bowling at the top of 3rd/4th stump and forcing batsman to play almost every delivery. If you're a medium pacer in English conditions you can't bowl that length consistently or you'll get driven out of the attack so you have to bowl shorter and slightly wider and concentrate on taking edges rather than hitting the stumps. That's why getting the bowlers a lot more time in those conditions would be good for us.
Quicks have more room for error if they don't get the length quite right which is why they have less problems translating performances onto those pitches.
Yep, that worked out for Steve Harmison.
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You can coach players through to bowl at 90mph. Speed is a skill, its nothing innate, we're just not making efforts to produce players to do this. This is the series we all want to win, so why aren't the ECB putting in place the coaches and the programmes to support the counties in producing this.
Financial incentives to produce leg spinners, produce fast bowlers beyond the medium pace dobber who can swing and reverse it a little in overcast English green top pitches.
Get them to Australia, get them to South Africa- experience flat and bouncy pitches and something different than the Duke ball.
The bold bit is key, those players are no more effective in English conditions that medium pace swingers and hard to dominate offies but they require specialist coaching and, in the case of the leggies, huge amounts of game time to build up the experience needed. Given the already perilous finances for many of the counties they're just not going to take that on unless they get incentives.
I remember Mike Atherton talking about the subject of spinners and saying that the season up here doesn't really suit them. A lot of the four day stuff is played earlier on in the summer when conditions aren't suitable for spin and a lot of the games are now played at the County grounds and not some of the outlying venues which traditionally do turn.
I don't think we will ever produce a genuinely express bowler because the minute a kid pitches up at a cricket club in this country, they have "line and length" drilled into them. Any perceived fault with their action is ironed out, often at the expense of a few extra yards of pace (for example, the action of Mitchell Johnson or Malinga probably would have never made it through junior cricket in this country).
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I dont think its about pace bowling.. Glen McGrath was never express pace and he took 500+ wickets, in the later years of his career, Ryan Harris wasnt express pace and he caused England all sorts of problems. The Waugh brothers were handy bowlers and neither had express pace... all took plenty of wickets in Australian conditions with the Kookaburra ball.
If you are bowling around the 85mph mark then line and length are key, thats where the English bowling unit failed, not because of a lack of pace, but because they consistently bowled the wrong length and didnt bowl with enough control.
If you're a medium pace bowler used to that ball and those pitches then you naturally bowl fuller than a traditional 'good' length so your natural action and style is effective because you're bowling at the top of 3rd/4th stump and forcing batsman to play almost every delivery. If you're a medium pacer in English conditions you can't bowl that length consistently or you'll get driven out of the attack so you have to bowl shorter and slightly wider and concentrate on taking edges rather than hitting the stumps. That's why getting the bowlers a lot more time in those conditions would be good for us.
Quicks have more room for error if they don't get the length quite right which is why they have less problems translating performances onto those pitches.
Yep, that worked out for Steve Harmison.
Simon Jones says hello seeing as we're playing name a quick to support your argument.
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I dont think its about pace bowling.. Glen McGrath was never express pace and he took 500+ wickets, in the later years of his career, Ryan Harris wasnt express pace and he caused England all sorts of problems. The Waugh brothers were handy bowlers and neither had express pace... all took plenty of wickets in Australian conditions with the Kookaburra ball.
If you are bowling around the 85mph mark then line and length are key, thats where the English bowling unit failed, not because of a lack of pace, but because they consistently bowled the wrong length and didnt bowl with enough control.
If you're a medium pace bowler used to that ball and those pitches then you naturally bowl fuller than a traditional 'good' length so your natural action and style is effective because you're bowling at the top of 3rd/4th stump and forcing batsman to play almost every delivery. If you're a medium pacer in English conditions you can't bowl that length consistently or you'll get driven out of the attack so you have to bowl shorter and slightly wider and concentrate on taking edges rather than hitting the stumps. That's why getting the bowlers a lot more time in those conditions would be good for us.
Quicks have more room for error if they don't get the length quite right which is why they have less problems translating performances onto those pitches.
Yep, that worked out for Steve Harmison.
Simon Jones says hello seeing as we're playing name a quick to support your argument.
Chris Tremlett did pretty well last time we won down there, so does that extra bounce come into the equation as well as pace? Again mentioning Mike Atherton, I remember him saying that McGrath and Ambrose were so hard to face because they consistently put the ball on length and the extra bounce their height generated didn't allow him to get forward.
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I dont think its about pace bowling.. Glen McGrath was never express pace and he took 500+ wickets, in the later years of his career, Ryan Harris wasnt express pace and he caused England all sorts of problems. The Waugh brothers were handy bowlers and neither had express pace... all took plenty of wickets in Australian conditions with the Kookaburra ball.
If you are bowling around the 85mph mark then line and length are key, thats where the English bowling unit failed, not because of a lack of pace, but because they consistently bowled the wrong length and didnt bowl with enough control.
If you're a medium pace bowler used to that ball and those pitches then you naturally bowl fuller than a traditional 'good' length so your natural action and style is effective because you're bowling at the top of 3rd/4th stump and forcing batsman to play almost every delivery. If you're a medium pacer in English conditions you can't bowl that length consistently or you'll get driven out of the attack so you have to bowl shorter and slightly wider and concentrate on taking edges rather than hitting the stumps. That's why getting the bowlers a lot more time in those conditions would be good for us.
Quicks have more room for error if they don't get the length quite right which is why they have less problems translating performances onto those pitches.
Yep, that worked out for Steve Harmison.
Simon Jones says hello seeing as we're playing name a quick to support your argument.
Chris Tremlett did pretty well last time we won down there, so does that extra bounce come into the equation as well as pace? Again mentioning Mike Atherton, I remember him saying that McGrath and Ambrose were so hard to face because they consistently put the ball on length and the extra bounce their height generated didn't allow him to get forward.
Bounce is a funny one because if you look at someone like Broad he should be good at that but he loses too much pace when he tries to bang it in and they become easy meat for a good backfoot player (which is pretty much all the australians). remlett did well because he was only banging the odd one or 2 in and the rest were bordering on full, I very nearly wrote a line about quicks being at their best bowling full or short and largely avoiding good length stuff (on aussie pitches) which was pretty much Tremlett's approach. Cummins is a good example as well, he bowls short stuff well and he bowls fuller stuff well (in both cases he takes wickets and doesn't go for many), when he starts bowling at a good length he gets milked.
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To answer UKRedsox’s being as I fly off tomorrow to be there in Melbourne for the Boxing Day start I would like to see Cook, Ali and Broad dropped, Anderson rested. All replaced by Ballance, Crane, Ball and Foakes as batsman. Vince and Stoneman to open Foakes at 3. If replacement can be called up like to see Hales and Plunkett come in. Come on England.....FFS!
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I dont think its about pace bowling.. Glen McGrath was never express pace and he took 500+ wickets, in the later years of his career, Ryan Harris wasnt express pace and he caused England all sorts of problems. The Waugh brothers were handy bowlers and neither had express pace... all took plenty of wickets in Australian conditions with the Kookaburra ball.
If you are bowling around the 85mph mark then line and length are key, thats where the English bowling unit failed, not because of a lack of pace, but because they consistently bowled the wrong length and didnt bowl with enough control.
If you're a medium pace bowler used to that ball and those pitches then you naturally bowl fuller than a traditional 'good' length so your natural action and style is effective because you're bowling at the top of 3rd/4th stump and forcing batsman to play almost every delivery. If you're a medium pacer in English conditions you can't bowl that length consistently or you'll get driven out of the attack so you have to bowl shorter and slightly wider and concentrate on taking edges rather than hitting the stumps. That's why getting the bowlers a lot more time in those conditions would be good for us.
Quicks have more room for error if they don't get the length quite right which is why they have less problems translating performances onto those pitches.
Yep, that worked out for Steve Harmison.
Simon Jones says hello seeing as we're playing name a quick to support your argument.
Simon Jones who managed one session of test cricket in Australia in his career?
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I dont think its about pace bowling.. Glen McGrath was never express pace and he took 500+ wickets, in the later years of his career, Ryan Harris wasnt express pace and he caused England all sorts of problems. The Waugh brothers were handy bowlers and neither had express pace... all took plenty of wickets in Australian conditions with the Kookaburra ball.
If you are bowling around the 85mph mark then line and length are key, thats where the English bowling unit failed, not because of a lack of pace, but because they consistently bowled the wrong length and didnt bowl with enough control.
If you're a medium pace bowler used to that ball and those pitches then you naturally bowl fuller than a traditional 'good' length so your natural action and style is effective because you're bowling at the top of 3rd/4th stump and forcing batsman to play almost every delivery. If you're a medium pacer in English conditions you can't bowl that length consistently or you'll get driven out of the attack so you have to bowl shorter and slightly wider and concentrate on taking edges rather than hitting the stumps. That's why getting the bowlers a lot more time in those conditions would be good for us.
Quicks have more room for error if they don't get the length quite right which is why they have less problems translating performances onto those pitches.
Yep, that worked out for Steve Harmison.
Simon Jones says hello seeing as we're playing name a quick to support your argument.
Simon Jones who managed one session of test cricket in Australia in his career?
Yep, because he's the type of bowler we should be looking for not a tall bouncy one like Harmison. Aside from that everyone expected him to have a superb tour that year and the injury at the very start was a huge blow. The way he bowled against Australia a few years later showed why he'd have been incredibly effective because they really struggled with his line.
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To answer UKRedsox’s being as I fly off tomorrow to be there in Melbourne for the Boxing Day start I would like to see Cook, Ali and Broad dropped, Anderson rested. All replaced by Ballance, Crane, Ball and Foakes as batsman. Vince and Stoneman to open Foakes at 3. If replacement can be called up like to see Hales and Plunkett come in. Come on England.....FFS!
Feel a bit gutted for you and others who are going over after we have already lost the series, but then they are still test matches at the MCG and SCG which should be great. Are you doing any of the ODIs!
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I dont think its about pace bowling.. Glen McGrath was never express pace and he took 500+ wickets, in the later years of his career, Ryan Harris wasnt express pace and he caused England all sorts of problems. The Waugh brothers were handy bowlers and neither had express pace... all took plenty of wickets in Australian conditions with the Kookaburra ball.
If you are bowling around the 85mph mark then line and length are key, thats where the English bowling unit failed, not because of a lack of pace, but because they consistently bowled the wrong length and didnt bowl with enough control.
If you're a medium pace bowler used to that ball and those pitches then you naturally bowl fuller than a traditional 'good' length so your natural action and style is effective because you're bowling at the top of 3rd/4th stump and forcing batsman to play almost every delivery. If you're a medium pacer in English conditions you can't bowl that length consistently or you'll get driven out of the attack so you have to bowl shorter and slightly wider and concentrate on taking edges rather than hitting the stumps. That's why getting the bowlers a lot more time in those conditions would be good for us.
Quicks have more room for error if they don't get the length quite right which is why they have less problems translating performances onto those pitches.
Yep, that worked out for Steve Harmison.
Simon Jones says hello seeing as we're playing name a quick to support your argument.
Simon Jones who managed one session of test cricket in Australia in his career?
Yep, because he's the type of bowler we should be looking for not a tall bouncy one like Harmison. Aside from that everyone expected him to have a superb tour that year and the injury at the very start was a huge blow. The way he bowled against Australia a few years later showed why he'd have been incredibly effective because they really struggled with his line.
Wood and Plunkett are obvious options to come in, but there are worries about the fitness of the former. I don't know if we should still be holding out any hope for Finn and I suppose the other options are the next generation coming through (Overton, Helm etc.).
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Wood and Plunkett are obvious options to come in, but there are worries about the fitness of the former. I don't know if we should still be holding out any hope for Finn and I suppose the other options are the next generation coming through (Overton, Helm etc.).
If Wood wasn't made of paper (he he) he'd be perfect as the type of bowler I think would do really well for us in Australia. Most of them are much stronger on the backfoot than the front so a skiddy bowler chucking them down at 90ish where they can't work out whether or not they can stay back.
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To answer UKRedsox’s being as I fly off tomorrow to be there in Melbourne for the Boxing Day start I would like to see Cook, Ali and Broad dropped, Anderson rested. All replaced by Ballance, Crane, Ball and Foakes as batsman. Vince and Stoneman to open Foakes at 3. If replacement can be called up like to see Hales and Plunkett come in. Come on England.....FFS!
Feel a bit gutted for you and others who are going over after we have already lost the series, but then they are still test matches at the MCG and SCG which should be great. Are you doing any of the ODIs!
Don't feel too sorry for him , forecast says 28c and 36c in MEL and SYD today. Have a great time Olaftab and keep the updates coming.
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Tom yes it would have been nicer to turn up at Melbourne with Ashes still in doubt but as Oz said there are collateral benefits. And to be honest it’s a life time wish to be at the MCG at the start of a Boxing Day Test match with 90K crowd.😊
Not doing any one dayers as flying out Day after the Sydney test match to stay in Bali for a week.
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Tom yes it would have been nicer to turn up at Melbourne with Ashes still in doubt but as Oz said there are collateral benefits. And to be honest it’s a life time wish to be at the MCG at the start of a Boxing Day Test match with 90K crowd.😊
Not doing any one dayers as flying out Day after the Sydney test match to stay in Bali for a week.
Hope you have a great trip and safe travels. Who knows, maybe your arrival will see a turn in iur fortunes!
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Wood and Plunkett are obvious options to come in, but there are worries about the fitness of the former. I don't know if we should still be holding out any hope for Finn and I suppose the other options are the next generation coming through (Overton, Helm etc.).
If Wood wasn't made of paper (he he) he'd be perfect as the type of bowler I think would do really well for us in Australia. Most of them are much stronger on the backfoot than the front so a skiddy bowler chucking them down at 90ish where they can't work out whether or not they can stay back.
I agree and I think Wood could have offered something a bit different. If the ball isn't doing too much, then Woakes, Broad and Anderson become a bit too similar. Maybe it is time to look at some new blood, but Broad and Anderson are so effective in home conditions, it would be hard to move on from them for a while.
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Personally I probably wouldn't change the team too much, Cook, Moeen, and Anderson both deserve another crack, either due to previous performances and the fact that I cant see the side improving by replacing them with Jennings, Crane or Ball.
Broad is a bit different as he's been really poor and he really couldn't have many complaints but only if it's for an out and out quick like say Mark Wood. If Wood isn't ready to go then Broad stays in.
The other thing is if you throw in players not ready then you could risk setting their careers back. This isn't any old dead rubber where you might experiment with a few things, this is a Boxing Day Ashes Test.
Melbourne is a drop in pitch so should be decent to bat on and not express in pace. Might suit England a bit more but it's now become a confidence thing.
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I think the massive qualifier with Wood is whether he is 100% match fit. If he isn't his pace tends to be early to mid eighties and he doesn't really offer anything we don't have.
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I think the massive qualifier with Wood is whether he is 100% match fit. If he isn't his pace tends to be early to mid eighties and he doesn't really offer anything we don't have.
Exactly, that's why he's not a regular but I'd have loved us to wrap him in cotton wool for this tour.
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He was bowling in the 90s in the tour game.
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Tom yes it would have been nicer to turn up at Melbourne with Ashes still in doubt but as Oz said there are collateral benefits. And to be honest it’s a life time wish to be at the MCG at the start of a Boxing Day Test match with 90K crowd.😊
Not doing any one dayers as flying out Day after the Sydney test match to stay in Bali for a week.
It's possible that England might beat Bali ;)
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Personally I probably wouldn't change the team too much, Cook, Moeen, and Anderson both deserve another crack, either due to previous performances and the fact that I cant see the side improving by replacing them with Jennings, Crane or Ball.
Broad is a bit different as he's been really poor and he really couldn't have many complaints but only if it's for an out and out quick like say Mark Wood. If Wood isn't ready to go then Broad stays in.
The other thing is if you throw in players not ready then you could risk setting their careers back. This isn't any old dead rubber where you might experiment with a few things, this is a Boxing Day Ashes Test.
Melbourne is a drop in pitch so should be decent to bat on and not express in pace. Might suit England a bit more but it's now become a confidence thing.
Agree and it's a bit of the old "you got us in to tis mess, now get us out of it" mentality. I don't think the MCG is the place to be throwing youngsters in, but the final test in Sydney might provide an opportunity.
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I think the massive qualifier with Wood is whether he is 100% match fit. If he isn't his pace tends to be early to mid eighties and he doesn't really offer anything we don't have.
True and I think you would have to look at who he would replace as well. If he plays alongside Broad and Anderson then we are looking at quite a long tail, so he would probably have to replace one of those two.
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I think the massive qualifier with Wood is whether he is 100% match fit. If he isn't his pace tends to be early to mid eighties and he doesn't really offer anything we don't have.
True and I think you would have to look at who he would replace as well. If he plays alongside Broad and Anderson then we are looking at quite a long tail, so he would probably have to replace one of those two.
On form it has to be Broad sitting out.
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I think the massive qualifier with Wood is whether he is 100% match fit. If he isn't his pace tends to be early to mid eighties and he doesn't really offer anything we don't have.
True and I think you would have to look at who he would replace as well. If he plays alongside Broad and Anderson then we are looking at quite a long tail, so he would probably have to replace one of those two.
On form it has to be Broad sitting out.
I would be fine with that Paul and think it might be time to make that call going forward anyway. Broad's batting woes have limited him a bit as he is now only a 10 or 11. If his bowling has a dip, then his selection becomes questionable.
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Got to bear in mind that Overton will probably miss the game as well.
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Got to bear in mind that Overton will probably miss the game as well.
Might as well give Curran a go though because he did well in the 2dayer in Perth and there should be some form of progression to be seen if players do well when they get a chance.
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Maybe yeah, although I think Curran's bowling is some way short of Test quality. That being said what is in his favour is that he appears to have a lot of fight about him, so he's possibly the sort of player who could develop quite a lot.
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Got to bear in mind that Overton will probably miss the game as well.
True and that will probably give Broad a reprieve at the MCG.
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Still, at least we won the T20 World Cup which is what seems to be the priority these days.
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Still, at least we won the T20 World Cup which is what seems to be the priority these days.
Not sure about that Chris, as I think if you asked many English cricket fans they would still put the Ashes right at the top, even above the World Cup perhaps. That said, the upcoming ODI series against them should be good.
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We would probably score more runs if we just played the ODI team.
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If/whoever did come in you know the Aussies will go after them.
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We would probably score more runs if we just played the ODI team.
It is a bit strange how our fortunes in the various formats have changed over the last couple of years. We struggled so badly in ODIs for years, but now we have a strong, settled side with good options to come in.
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We would probably score more runs if we just played the ODI team.
It is a bit strange how our fortunes in the various formats have changed over the last couple of years. We struggled so badly in ODIs for years, but now we have a strong, settled side with good options to come in.
Anyone would think the whole county structure has been changed to give us the best possible chance in the white ball game at the expense of the county championship, using the summer months for white ball cricket and pushing the 4 day game to the start and end of the summer isnt going to do anything to help produce test match players. Bowlers taking shedloads of wickets on green tops in April and May and September are not going to be ready to step up to test cricket.
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There's far too much one day cricket played, I genuinely have no idea who won what one day series or tournament in recent years as there are so many of them, they just all blur into one. Get the feeling that those in charge wouldn't be too sorry to see the County Championship replaced by yet another one day tournament, then wonder why the national team isn't capable of producing players who can perform at the top level. We seem to have plenty of batsmen who can twat the ball all over the place but nobody who can stick around and build an innings.
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We would probably score more runs if we just played the ODI team.
It is a bit strange how our fortunes in the various formats have changed over the last couple of years. We struggled so badly in ODIs for years, but now we have a strong, settled side with good options to come in.
Anyone would think the whole county structure has been changed to give us the best possible chance in the white ball game at the expense of the county championship, using the summer months for white ball cricket and pushing the 4 day game to the start and end of the summer isnt going to do anything to help produce test match players. Bowlers taking shedloads of wickets on green tops in April and May and September are not going to be ready to step up to test cricket.
Good points CM. I would also add that the two division system doesn't really work if the best players are spread across both divisions. In any sport, the top talent pretty much all plays in the top division of their respective sport. Having international players playing in poor sides against other poor sides probably isn't the best preparation for international cricket.
I still think a regional set up could be added on top of the current structure to ensure games of higher quality.
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We would probably score more runs if we just played the ODI team.
It is a bit strange how our fortunes in the various formats have changed over the last couple of years. We struggled so badly in ODIs for years, but now we have a strong, settled side with good options to come in.
Anyone would think the whole county structure has been changed to give us the best possible chance in the white ball game at the expense of the county championship, using the summer months for white ball cricket and pushing the 4 day game to the start and end of the summer isnt going to do anything to help produce test match players. Bowlers taking shedloads of wickets on green tops in April and May and September are not going to be ready to step up to test cricket.
Good points CM. I would also add that the two division system doesn't really work if the best players are spread across both divisions. In any sport, the top talent pretty much all plays in the top division of their respective sport. Having international players playing in poor sides against other poor sides probably isn't the best preparation for international cricket.
I still think a regional set up could be added on top of the current structure to ensure games of higher quality.
On that specific point I think the T20 city league may actually improve things because it creates the possibility for players to join different sides for each format.
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The one day cricket brings in the majority of the money, so it has to be there. But money needs to be ploughed into the longer format as that's the foundation of the game. There should also be a percentage on Test matches that have to be shown on terrestrial TV, and the same goes for county cricket. I bet if county cricket was shown on terrestrial tv it would drive some interest back.
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There are too many teams and too much Cricket, with an unhealthy amount of time spent on the short forms of the game. It's why bowlers struggle with longer spells and are also coached to contain as opposed to taking wickets. And you won't find many batsmen capable of digging in when lamping it is the name of the game. I also wonder whether the way points are calculated in Championship cricket needs to be reviewed. The games are shorter than a test anyway but I don't know if incentivising them to score quickly in the first innings works in the modern climate.
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Wood and Plunkett are obvious options to come in, but there are worries about the fitness of the former. I don't know if we should still be holding out any hope for Finn and I suppose the other options are the next generation coming through (Overton, Helm etc.).
If Wood wasn't made of paper (he he) he'd be perfect as the type of bowler I think would do really well for us in Australia. Most of them are much stronger on the backfoot than the front so a skiddy bowler chucking them down at 90ish where they can't work out whether or not they can stay back.
I agree and I think Wood could have offered something a bit different. If the ball isn't doing too much, then Woakes, Broad and Anderson become a bit too similar. Maybe it is time to look at some new blood, but Broad and Anderson are so effective in home conditions, it would be hard to move on from them for a while.
Broad has had a really poor year, even in the home tests. I get the feeling his decline may be irreversible.
Anderson on the other hand remains a world class operator. He is 2 wickets away from being the highest wicket taking non spinner in test history, he is in exceptional shape for a 35 year old and I think can perform at a very high level for at least another couple of years.
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I think the massive qualifier with Wood is whether he is 100% match fit. If he isn't his pace tends to be early to mid eighties and he doesn't really offer anything we don't have.
True and I think you would have to look at who he would replace as well. If he plays alongside Broad and Anderson then we are looking at quite a long tail, so he would probably have to replace one of those two.
Our tail already starts at about no 7 in this series.
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India Sri Lanka T20 now, they couldn't could they? Brilliant stuff.
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On our way to a Barmy Army do and MCG there along the Yarra.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hVFDQR/3_ACD04_C0_9_C8_F_4_A81_9299_11785_BC8_CADA.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hVFDQR)
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Team announcement: https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/574821?utm_source=FBPAGE&utm_medium=England%20Cricket&utm_content=100000117204925+&utm_campaign=Ashes%202017/18
Alastair Cook
Mark Stoneman
James Vince
Joe Root (captain)
Dawid Malan
Jonny Bairstow
Moeen Ali
Chris Woakes
Tom Curran
Stuart Broad
James Anderson
So the simple change of Curran in for Overton, that's what I expected, Ali must've been 50/50 though given he's supposedly been carrying a knock, I suspect if the spinner cover was someone more experienced that call might've been different.
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Good luck to Curran, but I fear he might be one of those players who struggled to play more than 5 Tests.
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On our way to a Barmy Army do and MCG there along the Yarra.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hVFDQR/3_ACD04_C0_9_C8_F_4_A81_9299_11785_BC8_CADA.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hVFDQR)
Enjoy mate! A Merry Christmas to you.
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Nik enjoy you stay back home despite the Villa. Happy Xmas.
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This pitch looks flat already. It's going to be hard work today.
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Very ominous already. This is a huge ask for Curran.
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What odds Warner to get a hundred before lunch on this. Coming on to the bat and he can just hit through the line and be aggressive.
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Jimmy and Broady have done well so far. Successive maidens and good pressure. It’s getting hot bordering on very hot now.
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Hope you've got the factor 50, where are you sitting, high up?
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Pitch looks very flat but maybe a touch slow, the edge just dropped well short. There's another short one that got to him late.
I thjnk that's what we should be looking at because there's no swing.
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Hope you've got the factor 50, where are you sitting, high up?
Right at the front lower tier 10 rows back Don Bradman end sweating buckets already.
Paul e the pitch is slow. Bowling has to be top notch to keep any control on this.
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This is going to be a dreadfully boring test if the pitch stays like this. We don't even have a Maxwell to liven things up for a bit.
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Warner caught on 99, first wicket for Tom Curran, fuck off gobshite, a small victory. But no, this is England, ofcourse let's check the front foot, no ball. Warner gets his hundred next ball.
Just when you think things can't get any worse we always manage to find away.
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Gobshite goes for 103. Smith comes out. Decent session so far for England.
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It’s been tough out there for bowlers and I think they have done well. A couple of wickets in the last session will be good. Khawaja is very unsure. They need to come out with a plan to get rid of him quickly. And it’s getting hotter with no respite the sun is directly above burning us😟
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Well there we go Khawaja gone and at long last Broad picks up a wicket.
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Looks like Smith will be getting yet another ton, need quick wickets tomorrow to keep the game open knowing how we collapse.
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And it’s getting hotter with no respite the sun is directly above burning us😟
Maybe I shouldn't mention tomorrows forecast temperature then if you thought today was hot.
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So Australia to get around 500 and we'll be out for around 250 we reckon? Sounds like bowlers bowled tidily without being able to penetrate much.
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The most worrying thing was that Smith did nothing just patted the ball about and he is on 60+ so when he starts playing.....
I noticed also how much Smith helps partners. Marsh is a very ordinary batsman but Smith makes him better with constant coaching.
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A bit more breeze in the ground today but not sure if that will be of any help to bowlers but I am enjoying it.
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Tom Curran your first wicket son and it’s Smith.
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England on fire this morning - too little too late but good to see finally
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Australia probably still got about 100 runs too many for our batting lineup to be competitive
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For the first time we are batting with a bit of match momentum, its still a good wicket and the Aussies are without Starc.
All out for 230.
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Great morning at MCG and own a little dampened with Stony loosing his wicket. This is slow pitch where the ball holds up thus the 3 Aussies hit wicket so batters just have to be careful. Other than than nothing to worry about.
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The Richie Benaud troops have turned up today and there’s been a lot of tête-à-tête with the Barmy Army boys and girls so that’s been good fun and getting more boisterous as beer is being sunked down by the gallons.
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Fair play England today, we've turned up. Cook clearly isn't gone yet, shame they couldn't do it when series was alive.
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England finally have given the fans here something to cheer and cheered we did with gusto. The celebration have carried on into the city centre. You would think England have won the Ashes😂
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Cook, Broad and Anderson deliver. Too late. Still be nice to win at least one.
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Can't argue with what has been an excellent day for England. Broad and Anderson showed immense skill in unhelpful bowling conditions and then Cook dominating with the bat.
Still get the feeling that we'll collapse and end up around level with their score though. Cook and Root need to buck the trend of them being unable to start again the next day.
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Can't argue with what has been an excellent day for England. Broad and Anderson showed immense skill in unhelpful bowling conditions and then Cook dominating with the bat.
Still get the feeling that we'll collapse and end up around level with their score though. Cook and Root need to buck the trend of them being unable to start again the next day.
Agree with all of that. Just goes to show how reliant we are on a the senior players performing. Finely balanced now.
Olaftab - your arrival seems to turned our fortunes round mate! You doing all five days?
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Yes mate all 5 days every ball. This morning we will be there to see Joe nudge to his 50 and onwards. Cloudy day today and temperature max at 27 deg positively freezing😁
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Much improved, but England have mugged themselves not reviewing the two inside edges. Then you get a decision like Curran just has, minimal contact, but enough for the outside edge.
With Australia's woes in the bowling department, a lead of 120+ could have been there for the taking and would have really had the Aussies on the run. Circa 400 will put you in control in English conditions, but as is obvious here and India, you really need to go for the throat and aim for 500+ if it's on. Bloody hard to do on a turning Indian wicket, or with three gun Australian fast bowlers, granted. But there was an opportunity here.
As it is, the Aussies will prob back themselves to overturn a 50/60 run deficit.
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This is turning into another great day. Cook has just got double. I am pleased I never said he was finished😉 now with England well past 400 it’s pure fun here at MCG and still about 90 mins play left.
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What d'you reckon, olaftab? Declare on 450+ and have a dart at them tonight? Or grind them down further?
Nice to have the dilemma.
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Noooo no declaration grind them into dust. It’s fantastic fun now.
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Broad winding the clock back and looking like a batsman.
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Jackson Bird getting load of stick as he is fielding in front of BA.
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Fantastic innings by Captain Cook. Just a shame he didn't have an innings like this earlier. He really is a brilliant batsman (and an Essex boy 8))
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Stunning from Cook, brilliant. Nice to see Broad bat to his talent.
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When he gets in the zone Cook is an absolute machine. It's incredible to think that he's been in the middle since the very first ball on day one.
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Those runs for Broad mean we get a spell from him tomorrow.
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Fantastic to wake up to see the England scoreboard, that's some knock by Cook and an important partnership with Broad.
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Great day, I hold my hand up and admit to giving in an heading to bed not long after Ali went and thinking we'd probably end up with about 375-400
to add some thoughts
Root knew what he'd done, I don't think I've seen him that angry with himself before, I suspect there was some colourful language in the dressing room, silly shot when him and Cook looked like putting together a mammoth total.
The umpire that gave Malan out should be ashamed of himself, awful decision, as was the lack of a review, very disappointing wicket from that point of view.
Bairstow had a good start and had them lookig a little nervy but the shot that he got out with was truly awful.
Ali added some great impetus but he needs to work on scoring that quick 20 and then settling in and building towards a 50. The little blitz cameos he does are great in a lot of ways but if he could 'down gear' and settle in after 10-15 deliveries he could be a real match winner for us.
Bird for Starc is very possibly the worst injury replacement I've ever seen, he looks totally out of his depth, he's gone at 3.6 but from what I saw it could've been 5+ because he was bowling right in the slot for Cook.
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BBC Midlands Today has really gone for the local angle with their headline. Woakes helps England to dominant position in fourth Ashes Test.
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Ha ha whilst technically accurate, probably not really reflective of what has happened.
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It’s just a shame we haven’t completely rammed the advantage home. Root out again the morning after, and nothing much from the Moeen again. 550+ would look a lot nicer and is the sort of score you expect when somebody scores 250.
Great knock from Cook though and thoroughly entertaining from Broad.
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Tremendous from Cook, the bloke really is a cases act off the field too.
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It’s just a shame we haven’t completely rammed the advantage home. Root out again the morning after, and nothing much from the Moeen again. 550+ would look a lot nicer and is the sort of score you expect when somebody scores 250.
Great knock from Cook though and thoroughly entertaining from Broad.
The quick runs from Ali off the bowling of Lyon made Lyon suddenly lose his length and started bowling to short even after getting his wicket. I know Ali didn't get to many but the impetus of the match changed after his quick boundaries.
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It’s just a shame we haven’t completely rammed the advantage home. Root out again the morning after, and nothing much from the Moeen again. 550+ would look a lot nicer and is the sort of score you expect when somebody scores 250.
Great knock from Cook though and thoroughly entertaining from Broad.
The quick runs from Ali off the bowling of Lyon made Lyon suddenly lose his length and started bowling to short even after getting his wicket. I know Ali didn't get to many but the impetus of the match changed after his quick boundaries.
I agree it's just frustrating that he couldn't change gear and take advantage himself.
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BBC Midlands Today has really gone for the local angle with their headline. Woakes helps England to dominant position in fourth Ashes Test.
Well that’s how I saw it as well😉
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Despite a little drizzle teams are on the pitch. Let’s go..
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Well that didn’t last long. Jimmy gone first ball.
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I'd have declared overnight
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By not declaring overnight you can disrupt their Planning and also choose how to roll the pitch. 2 down is good for now but RSP now.
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Looks like the rain will do for us here annoyingly, unless it's clear tomorrow and there's an early clatter of wickets.
As an aside the ball tampering stuff sounds like utter bollocks.
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By not declaring overnight you can disrupt their Planning and also choose how to roll the pitch. 2 down is good for now but RSP now.
A fair point but kind of negated all of that possible disruption by Jimmy getting out to the first ball of the day.
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By not declaring overnight you can disrupt their Planning and also choose how to roll the pitch. 2 down is good for now but RSP now.
A fair point but kind of negated all of that possible disruption by Jimmy getting out to the first ball of the day.
Not really, we still got the choice of the roller for the pitch and we'd have done it with litle thought for how much batting we were going to do. Onto the game I thought we were too economical, it worked against the poorer batsmen because they couldn't resist trying to force something and playing silly shots. For this pair we're going to have to tempt them into playing I think.
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Play will start early tomorrow. Weather is expected to be dry but cloudy and alarmingly chilly for Mel at only 20 degrees.
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By not declaring overnight you can disrupt their Planning and also choose how to roll the pitch. 2 down is good for now but RSP now.
A fair point but kind of negated all of that possible disruption by Jimmy getting out to the first ball of the day.
Not really, we still got the choice of the roller for the pitch and we'd have done it with litle thought for how much batting we were going to do. Onto the game I thought we were too economical, it worked against the poorer batsmen because they couldn't resist trying to force something and playing silly shots. For this pair we're going to have to tempt them into playing I think.
I'd have wanted as much time bowling at them as possible, particularly given the weather forecast. If Jimmy had batted for an hour then great but a fresh attack is much better.
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By not declaring overnight you can disrupt their Planning and also choose how to roll the pitch. 2 down is good for now but RSP now.
A fair point but kind of negated all of that possible disruption by Jimmy getting out to the first ball of the day.
Not really, we still got the choice of the roller for the pitch and we'd have done it with litle thought for how much batting we were going to do. Onto the game I thought we were too economical, it worked against the poorer batsmen because they couldn't resist trying to force something and playing silly shots. For this pair we're going to have to tempt them into playing I think.
I'd have wanted as much time bowling at them as possible, particularly given the weather forecast. If Jimmy had batted for an hour then great but a fresh attack is much better.
We lost 2 overs. If we can get another couple of wickets early tomorrow (before they catch up to us) then it's difficult to criticise. The bowling in the first session last night was the best we've offered all tour, others have been more successful in terms of wickets but we stifled them completely. Woakes was particularly good, bowled an attacking line that worked with the field perfectly and fully deserved his wicket.
As for the weather I don't think anyone expected to only see an hour of play after lunch, the commentators had said they expected showers but there was no suggestion of anything more up until I turned it off at the first rain break.
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In case you hadn't noticed Cook's knock was the highest score in Test cricket for a player carrying his bat.
Pretty impressive.
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In case you hadn't noticed Cook's knock was the highest score in Test cricket for a player carrying his bat.
Pretty impressive.
Along with about 5-6 other records.
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It was an extremely impressive innings.
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It was an extremely impressive innings.
Certainly was. To be at the crease for that amount of time alone is a genuinely impressive feat.
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Nothing's going to happen here. This is a draw all day.
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Pitch is completely dead, we should bowl fuller and tempt them to drive. We'll go for runs but a good length isn't taking wickets and there's no bounce for the short stuff.
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Smith has been like a brick wall with the bat in this series.
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Yeah he has led from the front for them.
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Someone on the radio, can't remember who, predicted that we would not win a single test as we would be unable to get Smith out for under 20 in 2 innings let alone 10.
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3 things have have led to the 3-0 status in Australia’s favour:
1. Smith’s batting
2. Cook and Root’s form in the first 3 tests
3. Lack of a genuine spinner for England. Ali is ok but he is not a Swan, Murlithrahan or Warne😟🧐🚋🚡🚡
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I saw an incredible stat about Smith on Twitter earlier. He became the only player in test history to score more than 1,000 runs and average more than 70 in four successive calendar years.
2014: 1,146 @ 81.85
2015: 1,474 @ 73.70
2016: 1,079 @ 71.93
2017: 1,305 @ 76.76
That's a remarkable feat.
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3 things have have led to the 3-0 status in Australia’s favour:
1. Smith’s batting
2. Cook and Root’s form in the first 3 tests
3. Lack of a genuine spinner for England. Ali is ok but he is not a Swan, Murlithrahan or Warne😟🧐🚋🚡🚡
Hope you had a good time at the test even though we couldn't quite manage the win. I'm not sure it's fair comparing any spinner with Murali and Warne!! I think Ali's problem is that he can't tie up an end and create pressure. He's proved he can bowl match winning spells, but test cricket affords batsmen the luxury of just waiting for the poor ball to come along and put it away.
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Don't understand why we didn't bowl more bouncers and Yorkers where a good length ball received zero assistance from the surface.
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Bouncers would have been a waste of time, the pitch was too slow at the end and it would've been tough for the bowlers on day 5 though, it could only be the odd surprise, effort ball on that pitch. I agree about the Yorkers, also brings more dismissals into play.
Looks likely the Aussies might go with 2 spinners at Sydney.
What's the plan for our new H&V cricket correspondent Olaftab between now and then?
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Just arrived in Sydney Oz so no worries I have it covered😂
Tom I agree with you and also Root went too defensive. For example field setting with one slip at the start of fifth day and almost all day and generally not enough around the bat.
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Bouncers would have been a waste of time, the pitch was too slow at the end and it would've been tough for the bowlers on day 5 though, it could only be the odd surprise, effort ball on that pitch. I agree about the Yorkers, also brings more dismissals into play.
Looks likely the Aussies might go with 2 spinners at Sydney.
What's the plan for our new H&V cricket correspondent Olaftab between now and then?
As I said at the time, bowl full and try to get them driving, that way the length ball (which was staying low) becomes the variation and you get more chance of them chopping on. On top of that Curran and Woakes in particular are excellent t20 bowlers so get them bowling the wide yorkers, etc and mixing in the slower balls. We weren't going to lose and they weren't going to risk anything against line and length bowling. I agree the pitch was too slow for bouncers, Broad tried a few and they barely made chest height.
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The Australian Prime Minister is an ungracious ****** isn't he.
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What's he said.
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Usual Australian shite about beating the Poms, having a dig about the men & women winning the Ashes, maybe someone should have pointed out how shit their rugby team is, even fucking Scotland beat them.
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Woakes apparently struggling for the final test with a side problem.
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Woakes is confirmed as out injured so spinner Mason Crane plays.
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The Australian Prime Minister is an ungracious c*** isn't he.
He is Austarlian.
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Woakes is confirmed as out injured so spinner Mason Crane plays.
Interesting selection, need to be careful how we bowl him. We don't want to bury him like we did Kerrigan and Borthwick.
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Woakes apparently struggling for the final test with a side problem.
As are England. I'm here all week.
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Woakes apparently struggling for the final test with a side problem.
As are England. I'm here all week.
Might need a bit of cheering up once it starts!! It will be interesting to see how Crane goes, but his inclusion will leave us with a long tail.
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Seems a bit early for me, he's got some natural ability but, like all young leggies, he gets smacked around a bit. We need to be very clear that he's there to go after wickets and set fields and manage the game situation to give him the chance to do that. If he gets hit around a little we can't just pull him out of the attack for half a day or we're just going to ruin him.
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Seems a bit early for me, he's got some natural ability but, like all young leggies, he gets smacked around a bit. We need to be very clear that he's there to go after wickets and set fields and manage the game situation to give him the chance to do that. If he gets hit around a little we can't just pull him out of the attack for half a day or we're just going to ruin him.
Darren Gough was saying similar on Talksport earlier Paul. He's got five wickets at 60's so far on the tour which speaks volumes about where he is in his career. Seems to have something about him though so you never know.
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England's day up until last 10 minutes. Harsh on Root, as he got a good score, but his wicket has opened the door and now Bairstow is gone and we're into the tail. We'll be lucky to get 280 as opposed to the 400 we should get.
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England's day up until last 10 minutes. Harsh on Root, as he got a good score, but his wicket has opened the door and now Bairstow is gone and we're into the tail. We'll be lucky to get 280 as opposed to the 400 we should get.
Agree Paul, those two wickets right at the end could be a real hammer blow. We need Malan and Ali to put together a big partnership tomorrow.
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Last 10 minutes have swung the game in the Aussies favour. In that ten minutes England went from favourites in the betting to 4-1 outsiders.
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I wish they’d stop showing and talking about the bloody ‘Barmy Army’, they are the cricket equivalent of the Sheffield Wednesday/England band only with added boorish, pissed up blokes.
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I thought the day completely summed up the tour. Got ourselves into a good position before throwing the advantage away, Australia just kept it tight and hung in there and England couldn't see it through. That's why we're 3-0 down.
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I wish they’d stop showing and talking about the bloody ‘Barmy Army’, they are the cricket equivalent of the Sheffield Wednesday/England band only with added boorish, pissed up blokes.
I'm with you on this Chris.
If I've ever got the money to head down under for the Ashes, I'll be sitting nowhere near that lot.
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I thought the day completely summed up the tour. Got ourselves into a good position before throwing the advantage away, Australia just kept it tight and hung in there and England couldn't see it through. That's why we're 3-0 down.
The worst ting is we did it twice, Cook and Vince looked so comfortable that you could've gone to bed with them in and not been surprised to wake up to 250-1 and both in treble figures, losing both fairly cheaply was frustrating.
One thing that is interesting to consider, in both sessions we lost wickets in the 'extra' overs due to the rain delay. With Root and Cook both having been at the wicket for more than 30 overs in as single session when they fell could it be that the altered structure of the day has played a part? Cook in particular was out to a ball you'd expect him to handle and it looked like a lapse in concentration, which he doesn't do very often.
That said Root clearly has a mental issue when it comes to converting now, it doesn't happen this often without a problem.
For tomorrow Malan needs to build on his 50 and convert it and Ali/Curran/Broad need to stick with him long enough to make it happen. 350 is par here so we need to get up around there so we need to see out the morning session, by which time we'll be there or thereabouts.
To be a little more positive, if the ball moves off the seam and spins like it has today the England bowlers will be looking forward to this and if the pitch deteriorates as expected the 4th innings could fly by, we just need to give ourselves a chance and get a score to protect.
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England's day up until last 10 minutes. Harsh on Root, as he got a good score, but his wicket has opened the door and now Bairstow is gone and we're into the tail. We'll be lucky to get 280 as opposed to the 400 we should get.
Not harsh on Root imo. Once again underlined the difference in character between him and Smith.
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I think when the England batters chat to each other mid-pitch between overs they are mainly in discussion about whether we're in a comfortable enough position, and if so whose turn is it to throw their wicket away.
It's like they take Sir Geoffrey's mantra "if the score looks good, add a couple of wickets to it" as an instruction rather than a warning.
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Some hot weather (high 30's) forecast for days 3 and 4 so i'm pretty certain it's going to turn at the back end of the game.
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Some hot weather (high 30's) forecast for days 3 and 4 so i'm pretty certain it's going to turn to shit for England at the back end of the game.
FTFY.
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I like SCG it had so much more cricket character than MCG. The Members and Ladies Pavilions are a great sight. It’s a shame that it’s not really well served by public transport but we enjoyed the walk up Surrey Hills to get there. What a shame the day ended so badly. I lay the blame squarely in Roots lap. Him and Malan had played superbly to take it away from Aussies but then he goes and ducks it up. It was coming as after being ever so careful he started attacking Starc. Warning was there early on as after driving him for a four he luckily got away with a sliced 4 to long stop. Bairstow was also hopeless as he should have been more careful having avoided a review dismissal. And why oh why no use of a night watchman?😥
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Some hot weather (high 30's) forecast for days 3 and 4 so i'm pretty certain it's going to turn at the back end of the game.
Not looking forward to that as we have no cover where our seats are😟
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I wish they’d stop showing and talking about the bloody ‘Barmy Army’, they are the cricket equivalent of the Sheffield Wednesday/England band only with added boorish, pissed up blokes.
And shamefully totally infiltrated by football chavness. Moron’s singing “shall we sing a song for you” and “you’re are shit .....” to any Australian player close by. However the left, middle, right and convicts is a classic to be admired.
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We really need Moeen to be back to his swashbuckling best to get anything here. New ball bowling is also going to be vital, we can't afford to start bowling poorly.
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I wish they’d stop showing and talking about the bloody ‘Barmy Army’, they are the cricket equivalent of the Sheffield Wednesday/England band only with added boorish, pissed up blokes.
I'm with you on this Chris.
If I've ever got the money to head down under for the Ashes, I'll be sitting nowhere near that lot.
I agree, I'd be gutted to sit near them.
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Root's struggles converting 50s into 100s is a real concern and he needs to work out what it is that is stopping him managing to do it.
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Also there comes a point where management should step in terms of use of a night watchman. The time left in the day meant that Bairstow going in could have absolutely no gain. It shouldn't be up to the player in that scenario. I get it with say an hour left to play, because you can turn the situation round but not 10 minutes. If we'd sent a tailender in we'd at least have had 3 batsmen left tomorrow, and frankly the only use they have at the moment is in the exact situation we faced this evening. As it is one wicket and we're likely to be knocked over quick tomorrow.
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A very sunny and hot morning here. Play starts early at 10 so going to set out in few minutes. I am hoping for a Moeen Renaissance and at least 300.
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A very sunny and hot morning here. Play starts early at 10 so going to set out in few minutes. I am hoping for a Moeen Renaissance and at least 300.
Hope it’s a good day :-) Enjoy!! meanwhile back here we’ll have messrs Boycott & Vaughan to listen to both praying that Moeen gets out early so they can pile into him, think they have both enjoyed this Ashes immensely
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Malan gone with a great catch at slip from Smith. We might struggle to make 300 here.
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Ah bollocks, not what we needed but that's a brilliant catch.
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Curran taking it to the Aussies a bit here and playing some nice shots. Nearly got stumped in bizarre fashion there though.
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Aussies dropped two absolute sitters.
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Aussies dropped two absolute sitters.
The Hazelwood one is right up there with the worst drops ever.
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Another start and then gone when he should've been settled. This is a very frustrating innings.
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Quite enjoyed that morning's play. Not really textbook batting, but our lower order took the fight to the Aussies a bit. Don't think we have got enough, especially as all the pundits are saying the pitch should be good for the next couple of days.
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Enjoying lunch in PJ Gallagher’s around the corner. All in all a very enjoyable morning. Now let’s get them out for 146 and make them follow on😟
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Disappointing afternoon. Simply not good enough to disturb Smith and Khawaja also safely heading to his century. It’s going to be long 3 days now. Might head for the beach instead one of the days.😥
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Aussies dropped two absolute sitters.
The Hazelwood one is right up there with the worst drops ever.
I saw that on the telly this morning, it was magnificent.
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I’d get Crane onto bowl straight away today, I suspect Khawaja will be nervous and start terribly against spin. Get one or two quick ones and it could open up.
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Khawaja is a brilliant spin player. He is more suspect against Jimmy and in any case young Mason is a bit out of his depth out here and not weaved any spin on that ball to worry Aussies. However the pitch is deteriorating so you never know.
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Khawaja is a brilliant spin player. He is more suspect against Jimmy and in any case young Mason is a bit out of his depth out here and not weaved any spin on that ball to worry Aussies. However the pitch is deteriorating so you never know.
Khawaja is about as far away from a brilliant spin player as there is. He has a horrendous record against spin.
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Unless we take a few quick wickets with the new ball we're done here.
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Blind squirrel finds a .....Mo picks up Smith.
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Boycott can be a right tit at times, i get the point he was trying to make that Crane shouldn't give the umpire a chance to call no ball but as Swann said his heel was behind the line when he made contact and the tv official got it wrong.
Smith was a huge wicket though and we need ro make the most of it now and get them for less than 400. This pitch does look like it's going to be tough on day 5 so a slight deficit isn't the end of the world but we're still going to need to bat well.
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Khawaja is a brilliant spin player. He is more suspect against Jimmy and in any case young Mason is a bit out of his depth out here and not weaved any spin on that ball to worry Aussies. However the pitch is deteriorating so you never know.
Khawaja is about as far away from a brilliant spin player as there is. He has a horrendous record against spin.
Ermmm...yes exactly no.😊
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Khawaja is a brilliant spin player. He is more suspect against Jimmy and in any case young Mason is a bit out of his depth out here and not weaved any spin on that ball to worry Aussies. However the pitch is deteriorating so you never know.
Khawaja is about as far away from a brilliant spin player as there is. He has a horrendous record against spin.
Ermmm...yes exactly no.😊
He does OK at home against spin, the lbw he got against Mo first up in Brisbane was more a mental thing. Clueless on the subcontinent though.
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So this Test is like an exact replay of Perth so far. England win the toss and bat first, get into a really good position only to squander it. Subsequently, they end up not getting anywhere near enough runs.
Aussies sail past England's score so England end up batting last to save the game in a match where they won the toss. Its turning already and stating to go a bit up and down, with 41c forecast for tomorrow and mid 30's for day 5 this will be an absolute Bunsen by then.
This will finish sometime in the afternoon session of day 5.
Thought Crane was very unlucky to only come away with only 1 wicket from the day. He bowled far better than that.
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So this Test is like an exact replay of Perth so far. England win the toss and bat first, get into a really good position only to squander it. Subsequently, they end up not getting anywhere near enough runs.
Aussies sail past England's score so England end up batting last to save the game in a match where they won the toss. Its turning already and stating to go a bit up and down, with 41c forecast for tomorrow and mid 30's for day 5 this will be an absolute Bunsen by then.
This will finish sometime in the afternoon session of day 5.
Thought Crane was very unlucky to only come away with only 1 wicket from the day. He bowled far better than that.
Well summed up.
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We've got two major problems, many of our batsmen aren't hungry enough for runs and our bowling attack just lacks bite.
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I would hope, and assume, their assessment of performance in house is harsher than what they state publicly. In these conditions there is a huge gulf in quality between the sides.
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OzVilla you summed it up. Not looking forward to 4thabd 5th day. Lyon is going to rip us apart.
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Thought Crane was very unlucky to only come away with only 1 wicket from the day. He bowled far better than that.
The one we reviewed which was given as a no ball was the game changer, we'd have had the marsh brothers both new to the crease with a tricky few overs before lunch. I think he was very unlucky with that one in particular because it was right on the line.
Add to it the Cook wicket and we've been on the wrong of 2 marginal 3rd umpire decisions tat have probably swung the game 100+ runs away from us.
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Another predictable day in the field. Crane bowled decently enough and there is clearly something there to work with. As for Curran? Well he is young and its not an easy situation to come into, but at this point he appears way short of test match ability
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I have no sympathy for crane regarding the no ball. There is no way a spinner should be that close to the line
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Boycott can be a right tit at times, i get the point he was trying to make that Crane shouldn't give the umpire a chance to call no ball but as Swann said his heel was behind the line when he made contact and the tv official got it wrong.
I thought that the Third Umpire got the call right.
I didn’t see anything behind the line when Crane’s foot landed.
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Boycott can be a right tit at times, i get the point he was trying to make that Crane shouldn't give the umpire a chance to call no ball but as Swann said his heel was behind the line when he made contact and the tv official got it wrong.
I thought that the Third Umpire got the call right.
I didn’t see anything behind the line when Crane’s foot landed.
I thought it was marginal but my main point was the way Boycott seemed, during the lunch break, to enjoy telling Swann and Lee (who both thought it was harsh) that it was up to the umpire and there was nothing to discuss, just came across as an arrogant knob, which he does fall back on a little too often for my liking. He just wanted to slag Crane off for pushing the line rather than talk about the decision itself and practically shouted the other 2 down for not letting him.
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Boycott can be a right tit at times, i get the point he was trying to make that Crane shouldn't give the umpire a chance to call no ball but as Swann said his heel was behind the line when he made contact and the tv official got it wrong.
I thought that the Third Umpire got the call right.
I didn’t see anything behind the line when Crane’s foot landed.
I thought it was marginal but my main point was the way Boycott seemed, during the lunch break, to enjoy telling Swann and Lee (who both thought it was harsh) that it was up to the umpire and there was nothing to discuss, just came across as an arrogant knob, which he does fall back on a little too often for my liking. He just wanted to slag Crane off for pushing the line rather than talk about the decision itself and practically shouted the other 2 down for not letting him.
As folk rocker Al Stewart said when critics wrote that his lyrics were pretentious, that's like saying Black Sabbath are loud. It's just the way the saft fucker rolls.
What really gets to me is when he says a fast bowler should get it up under is ribs, get it up under armpit, get im in neck under adam's apple, they don't like that. Nothing to say when someone gets it in the temple or the back of the neck, and dies.
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It’s tough out there today. Only spent about 45 minutes in my seat and it was unbearable. Retired now to the Bavarian to dehydrate.
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Can we survive into day 5? If we do then the ECB will probably hail all 5 matches going into the 5th day as a success.
Would not be surprising if we are 20 for 3 in an hours time
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Simply not good enough I am afraid. The whole system needs reviewing.
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How do we overhaul the system?
Our domestic cricket produces bowlers who bowl on green tops under cloudy skies for the first six or seven weeks of the season. Therefore we produce (very good) fast medium who, with the right conditions, do a bit with the ball. Counties are not going to change that.
Perhaps we could adopt the Kookaburra ball for our county marches. That would be a start.
We need to encourage our young bowlers out to play grade cricket and experience “alien” conditions. Whilst not setting the world alight in this test Crane might be a visitor n of the future. However, if he performs half decently this coming year the IPL, Big Bash and other 20/20 money competitions will beckon. This will generate another Rashid, who’s not really a test player and never will be.
As to immediate changes.
Root needs to be a batsman first and foremost. He shouldn’t be a tour captain (perhaps the skipper at home where he can get away from it all occasionally)
Stokes needs rehabilitation into the fold
We need to encourage young pace bowlers who can bowl 20 overs a day at 88 mph plus for more than two matches a year.
We need some consistency. Keeting Jennings, for example, raised on bouncy pitches and no where this test team. Hammed, last year unlucky he broke his finger, no mention again.
We need to pick teams for places we are touring not for English conditions perhaps. Six or seven core regulars but looking to develop our teams for Australia or India or South Africa two or three years in advance.
Finally test cricket admin needs to be totallydivroced from the white ball game.
I’m sure there’s lots we can do. But to avoid humiliation in four years time we need to start thinking about it now.
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Pretty poor stuff.
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I think we'd be overreacting if we were looking at a complete overhaul of the system. It's the way Test cricket is right now, see India currently struggling in South Africa and just a few months ago Australia struggling in India and Bangledesh.
I had no expectations in this series other than a fairly comprehensive defeat. Australia have a good attack and the worlds best batsman plus home conditions. England's attack without Stokes and Wood to back up Broad and Anderson is bang average. I expected Lyon to out bowl Moeen but not to this extent.
So what are the positives because there are plenty, well ticks for Malan, Overton and ,despite his figures, Crane needs some persevering with whilst Vince and Stoneman should also go to NZ for another crack. Thats a plus mark or tentative pass against the names of 4 new players in this series while the jury out still on Vince and Stoneman IMO, thats really not a bad return against previous Ashes tours. Ive no doubt they'll all be better players for this experience too.
I actually think, when all things are considered England have actually done well to take every Test match to a 5th day, despite being consistently outplayed by a better side England have not been folding inside 3 days unlike previous tours, that at least shows they have some mental toughness in the side as without it we would have seen much earlier finishes.
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Blimey I don't think dragging Test defeats out to 5 days is anything to praise for a team with the resources of England. You've got to look at the context of those 5 day defeats. They're not nip and tuck, could go either way, by and large they're hammerings.
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Blimey I don't think dragging Test defeats out to 5 days is anything to praise for a team with the resources of England. You've got to look at the context of those 5 day defeats. They're not nip and tuck, could go either way, by and large they're hammerings.
The point I'm making is not the scoreboard but its the mentality to stay together they've shown when up against a clearly superior side. I've been here for two 5-0 hammerings and I can see that this team wants to get better and genuinely come across as being very together as a group. You certainly couldn't say that about 06/7 or 13/14.
A small thing I appreciate but I'm looking at the positives. The negatives of generally not being good enough and losing our most important player we already know.
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Some very good points regarding the future.
I was chatting with a mate of mine about this yesterday. He was a decent club cricketer in his day and a keen follower of the game.
His view is that for so long as international cricket remains a 12 month a year global caravan then you have to accept that teams will usually prevail in their home conditions. That is the same for all countries. The days are long gone when aspiring or current overseas Test players appeared week-in, week-out in county cricket or even competitions like the Lancashire League. Then add the fact that a tour is actually a flying visit with back-to-back Tests, rather than interspersed with other games to allow time to acclimatize and hone the techniques required in different conditions. It is difficult to imagine a time when this will change, what with the demands of television on the international scene and a not unreasonable desire of the top players to make hay whilst the sun shines on the various high-profile Twenty-20 competitions that TV has spawned.
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How do we overhaul the system?
Our domestic cricket produces bowlers who bowl on green tops under cloudy skies for the first six or seven weeks of the season. Therefore we produce (very good) fast medium who, with the right conditions, do a bit with the ball. Counties are not going to change that.
Perhaps we could adopt the Kookaburra ball for our county marches. That would be a start.
We need to encourage our young bowlers out to play grade cricket and experience “alien” conditions. Whilst not setting the world alight in this test Crane might be a visitor n of the future. However, if he performs half decently this coming year the IPL, Big Bash and other 20/20 money competitions will beckon. This will generate another Rashid, who’s not really a test player and never will be.
As to immediate changes.
Root needs to be a batsman first and foremost. He shouldn’t be a tour captain (perhaps the skipper at home where he can get away from it all occasionally)
Stokes needs rehabilitation into the fold
We need to encourage young pace bowlers who can bowl 20 overs a day at 88 mph plus for more than two matches a year.
We need some consistency. Keeting Jennings, for example, raised on bouncy pitches and no where this test team. Hammed, last year unlucky he broke his finger, no mention again.
We need to pick teams for places we are touring not for English conditions perhaps. Six or seven core regulars but looking to develop our teams for Australia or India or South Africa two or three years in advance.
Finally test cricket admin needs to be totallydivroced from the white ball game.
I’m sure there’s lots we can do. But to avoid humiliation in four years time we need to start thinking about it now.
Some intetesting points there. It is a tough one because come the summer and cloudy skies over Edgbaston and Trent Bridge, you wouldn't want anyone else but Anderson and Broad bowling.
I do think losing Stokes has disrupted the balance of the side, but we have been comprehensively beaten.
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We've been soft as shit.
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TopDeck113 agree with your mates views. One reason for this failure is lack of prep but it’s simply not possible. May be reducing Ashes to 3 tests would help but money matters🙁
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We've taken 58 wickets in the whole series. That is utterly pathetic. Anderson has bowled tirelessly and has been given absolutely zero support from the rest of the "attack"
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We've taken 58 wickets in the whole series. That is utterly pathetic. Anderson has bowled tirelessly and has been given absolutely zero support from the rest of the "attack"
Broad has been well below what he should offer and Ali has bowled terribly, if they'd got the sort of figures you'd expect from them it would have made a huge difference, with Stokes not missing as well it might have been very different.
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The cricket season as we stand lasts for about 24 weeks. If we go back to 9 teams per division then that's 16 weeks for county championship games. 2 games on in April and September 3 games all the other months = 16
All games to start on a Monday. No exceptions except bank holdays.
That leaves 3 days to fit in T20 and RDL. - Some counties might entertain 2 x T20 fixtures in one day.
There are spinners but they are not allowed to ply their trade in August.
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Per Alison Mitchell.....Joe Root in Hospital
Appears to be related to the heat of yesterday
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Hope Root is ok, severe dehydration sounds pretty serious.
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Its been a tough tour that's for sure and the support for Anderson has been really poor which seems in contrast to Australia. Btw I've just managed to pick up 40 years of Wisden Almanacks last week which I know makes me both very sad and seriously happy!
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Hope Root is ok, severe dehydration sounds pretty serious.
In that sort of heat, surely it would have been prudent for the umpires to allow much more frequent drinks breaks and just finish the day a bit later if need be?
One extra break per session is clearly inadequate in the conditions
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According to the radio, the temperature reading out in the middle yesterday was 57c (135F). It was also Sydney's hottest day since 1939.
The poor buggers.
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It was not fun yesterday in more ways than one. Constant water was the answer for us. Anyway Joe is looking in fine and Aussies don’t seem too interested so dare I say there is chance we could hold out😊
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I think Root showed a lot of courage to bat at all. As Farbrace said yesterday the planning of how to win in Australia starts now.
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Well that was predicted but a nice walk on to SCG pitch after was good.
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I'm as pessimistic about our chances going into an Ashes series as I've been for 15 years if I'm honest. I dont think we'll score the runs required and our attack looks weak without Stokes to back up Anderson and Broad. Personally I think we'll get hammered again.
The only thing that gives me any optimism is the fact that this Aussie side really isn't all that, certainly as weak a batting line up as they've had in years. But home advantage and their pace attack will be too strong for us. 4-0 Australia.
Speaking of predictions, wish I'd had some money on it now.
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Jimmy with a Trump-esque lack of awareness
“We’ve not been blown away in every game"
4-0
10 wickets
120 runs
Innings and 41 runs
Innings and 123 runs
Pretty much the definition of blown away
I don't think that any credit can be given for drawing on that MCG wicket
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That was a fitting end to a turd of an attempt to win over there.
Positives, apparently they're all good mates and won't turn on each other. Which is lovely.
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Which will be crucial for the upcoming series in NZ and might enable them to build a new team and culture. If they hated one another they'd be even worse off. Remember the Pietersen debacle, once defeats creep in its every man for himself and tweets from Piers Morgan.
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If it wasn't for money we'd be playing 3 test series against them down there. We are embarrassing in OZ.
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Yes we are, as I said earlier I've witnessed first hand two 5-0 series whitewashes. They ended seasoned players careers and led the clear outs. They were the catalyst to the breaking up of teams, this might be the catalyst to the birth of one.
Of the established players, Anderson has earned another Summer and Cook also has at least another year or possibly 3 if he wants it enough, only Broad and Moeen have come out of the series with some question marks while we've unearthed a few potential 'finds'.
And yes we've been hammered make no mistake. But because of this its not quite as soul destroyingly as those other two series defeats for me. We really were never going to win this series.
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Jimmy with a Trump-esque lack of awareness
“We’ve not been blown away in every game"
4-0
10 wickets
120 runs
Innings and 41 runs
Innings and 123 runs
Pretty much the definition of blown away
I don't think that any credit can be given for drawing on that MCG wicket
To be honest, those are the kind of scorelines you would expect from a team like Bangladesh going there. It's been another really poor effort from a side who never really looked like they believed they could win and is unacceptable really. We were the cricketing equivalent of a football team who struggled to score and couldn't stop conceding.
Problem is, I don't see where the players are who can come in and change things. Stokes will obviously make a difference when he returns, but apart from that? I wouldn't really be looking to make massive changes for NZ anyway (think it is a bit ridiculous we are going there after an Ashes series but money talks) and Stoneman, Vince and Malan have probably just about done enough to be given another chance. As for the bowling, I suppose Anderson and Broad continue and then it is two from Curran, Overton, Woakes if they are fit.
As I said, we could probably do without going to NZ really and instead come back and get everyone fit and ready for the start of the season.
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Jimmy with a Trump-esque lack of awareness
“We’ve not been blown away in every game"
4-0
10 wickets
120 runs
Innings and 41 runs
Innings and 123 runs
Pretty much the definition of blown away
I don't think that any credit can be given for drawing on that MCG wicket
To be honest, those are the kind of scorelines you would expect from a team like Bangladesh going there. It's been another really poor effort from a side who never really looked like they believed they could win and is unacceptable really. We were the cricketing equivalent of a football team who struggled to score and couldn't stop conceding.
Problem is, I don't see where the players are who can come in and change things. Stokes will obviously make a difference when he returns, but apart from that? I wouldn't really be looking to make massive changes for NZ anyway (think it is a bit ridiculous we are going there after an Ashes series but money talks) and Stoneman, Vince and Malan have probably just about done enough to be given another chance. As for the bowling, I suppose Anderson and Broad continue and then it is two from Curran, Overton, Woakes if they are fit.
As I said, we could probably do without going to NZ really and instead come back and get everyone fit and ready for the start of the season.
I think we're at a wait and see stage for the bowlers, I wouldn't be shocked if we see 1 of Broad or Anderson for NZ and Pakistan. I also think you can add Crane into the mix and we might see Ali miss a few as well.
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I agree about Anderson's comments, absolute drivel. "Other series have been absolutely disastrous, but this doesn't feel like that." It's not really the time to be coming out with nonsense of that order when you've just been absolutely smashed by an innings and a hundred odd runs, you daft sod. Two innings where they've got around the 700 mark is the very definition of being blown away.
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Jimmy with a Trump-esque lack of awareness
“We’ve not been blown away in every game"
4-0
10 wickets
120 runs
Innings and 41 runs
Innings and 123 runs
Pretty much the definition of blown away
I don't think that any credit can be given for drawing on that MCG wicket
To be honest, those are the kind of scorelines you would expect from a team like Bangladesh going there. It's been another really poor effort from a side who never really looked like they believed they could win and is unacceptable really. We were the cricketing equivalent of a football team who struggled to score and couldn't stop conceding.
Problem is, I don't see where the players are who can come in and change things. Stokes will obviously make a difference when he returns, but apart from that? I wouldn't really be looking to make massive changes for NZ anyway (think it is a bit ridiculous we are going there after an Ashes series but money talks) and Stoneman, Vince and Malan have probably just about done enough to be given another chance. As for the bowling, I suppose Anderson and Broad continue and then it is two from Curran, Overton, Woakes if they are fit.
As I said, we could probably do without going to NZ really and instead come back and get everyone fit and ready for the start of the season.
I think we're at a wait and see stage for the bowlers, I wouldn't be shocked if we see 1 of Broad or Anderson for NZ and Pakistan. I also think you can add Crane into the mix and we might see Ali miss a few as well.
Plunkett and Wood are both in the ODI squad so if they perform well, then surely they should be considered for the NZ tour.
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Yes we are, as I said earlier I've witnessed first hand two 5-0 series whitewashes. They ended seasoned players careers and led the clear outs. They were the catalyst to the breaking up of teams, this might be the catalyst to the birth of one.
Of the established players, Anderson has earned another Summer and Cook also has at least another year or possibly 3 if he wants it enough, only Broad and Moeen have come out of the series with some question marks while we've unearthed a few potential 'finds'.
And yes we've been hammered make no mistake. But because of this its not quite as soul destroyingly as those other two series defeats for me. We really were never going to win this series.
Anderson has earned as long as he wants, we appear to be in a lot of trouble when he retires.
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Yes we are, as I said earlier I've witnessed first hand two 5-0 series whitewashes. They ended seasoned players careers and led the clear outs. They were the catalyst to the breaking up of teams, this might be the catalyst to the birth of one.
Of the established players, Anderson has earned another Summer and Cook also has at least another year or possibly 3 if he wants it enough, only Broad and Moeen have come out of the series with some question marks while we've unearthed a few potential 'finds'.
And yes we've been hammered make no mistake. But because of this its not quite as soul destroyingly as those other two series defeats for me. We really were never going to win this series.
Anderson has earned as long as he wants, we appear to be in a lot of trouble when he retires.
We obviously haven't got bowlers who are in his class, but we've got bowlers who could do the role of opening and getting the most out of any early movement (like Hoggard used to). I would say Roland-Jones and to some extent Woakes could both fulfil that role. It's the lack of any real pace that concerns me more.
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Yes we are, as I said earlier I've witnessed first hand two 5-0 series whitewashes. They ended seasoned players careers and led the clear outs. They were the catalyst to the breaking up of teams, this might be the catalyst to the birth of one.
Of the established players, Anderson has earned another Summer and Cook also has at least another year or possibly 3 if he wants it enough, only Broad and Moeen have come out of the series with some question marks while we've unearthed a few potential 'finds'.
And yes we've been hammered make no mistake. But because of this its not quite as soul destroyingly as those other two series defeats for me. We really were never going to win this series.
Anderson has earned as long as he wants, we appear to be in a lot of trouble when he retires.
We obviously haven't got bowlers who are in his class, but we've got bowlers who could do the role of opening and getting the most out of any early movement (like Hoggard used to). I would say Roland-Jones and to some extent Woakes could both fulfil that role. It's the lack of any real pace that concerns me more.
The other Overton might be the best option for proper pace right now but slightly longer term Jofra Archer looks like a superstar in the making (full disclosure I had no idea he was interested in England until I watched a big bash game last week and looked him up properly) and he looks like he can add a little more pace fairly easily. His record is superb - http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/669855.html and he's a proper all-rounder. If you get chance to watch the hurricanes in the big bash he's been brilliant for them.
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Yes we are, as I said earlier I've witnessed first hand two 5-0 series whitewashes. They ended seasoned players careers and led the clear outs. They were the catalyst to the breaking up of teams, this might be the catalyst to the birth of one.
Of the established players, Anderson has earned another Summer and Cook also has at least another year or possibly 3 if he wants it enough, only Broad and Moeen have come out of the series with some question marks while we've unearthed a few potential 'finds'.
And yes we've been hammered make no mistake. But because of this its not quite as soul destroyingly as those other two series defeats for me. We really were never going to win this series.
Anderson has earned as long as he wants, we appear to be in a lot of trouble when he retires.
We obviously haven't got bowlers who are in his class, but we've got bowlers who could do the role of opening and getting the most out of any early movement (like Hoggard used to). I would say Roland-Jones and to some extent Woakes could both fulfil that role. It's the lack of any real pace that concerns me more.
The other Overton might be the best option for proper pace right now but slightly longer term Jofra Archer looks like a superstar in the making (full disclosure I had no idea he was interested in England until I watched a big bash game last week and looked him up properly) and he looks like he can add a little more pace fairly easily. His record is superb - http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/669855.html and he's a proper all-rounder. If you get chance to watch the hurricanes in the big bash he's been brilliant for them.
Haven't seen much of the Big Bash to be honest Paul, but his name vaguely rings a bell and he sounds like a real talent. I would like to see someone with a bit of raw pace given a chance and not have their action interfered with too much in the England camp. Just encourage them to bowl fast.
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What i saw he was bowling 140ish which is about 87, so not rapid but definitely something to work with. That's t20 though so would have to see if he can do 20overs a day at that level.
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What i saw he was bowling 140ish which is about 87, so not rapid but definitely something to work with. That's t20 though so would have to see if he can do 20overs a day at that level.
Is he qualified for England yet or does he have to time serve?
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What i saw he was bowling 140ish which is about 87, so not rapid but definitely something to work with. That's t20 though so would have to see if he can do 20overs a day at that level.
Is he qualified for England yet or does he have to time serve?
2 more years i think.
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What i saw he was bowling 140ish which is about 87, so not rapid but definitely something to work with. That's t20 though so would have to see if he can do 20overs a day at that level.
Is he qualified for England yet or does he have to time serve?
2 more years i think.
I think that's what the commentators said on the big bash as well (late 2019 specifically).
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Yeah that's where i heard it
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If anyone is interested the next hurricanes game is on BTsport 2 on Wednesday morning (from 8:40) and him and Mills are both likely to play.
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I thought he had a 7 year wait (so 2022-23) but maybe wrong.
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I thought he had a 7 year wait (so 2022-23) but maybe wrong.
As he was resident in this country under age of 18 qualification period is 4 years. 7 years for other age groups etc.
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If anyone is interested the next hurricanes game is on BTsport 2 on Wednesday morning (from 8:40) and him and Mills are both likely to play.
Watched just about every BBL match so far, including the Hurricanes - Archer looks like a genuine prospect, easy pace off a short run-up and decent control as well. Mills looks pretty shithouse though, to be honest.
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How fast has Mills been wanging it down?
Good news if Archer is available next year.
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If anyone is interested the next hurricanes game is on BTsport 2 on Wednesday morning (from 8:40) and him and Mills are both likely to play.
Watched just about every BBL match so far, including the Hurricanes - Archer looks like a genuine prospect, easy pace off a short run-up and decent control as well. Mills looks pretty shithouse though, to be honest.
it's t20 so the economy is all over the place but I like that he seems to be really trying to take wickets with every ball. I hope that's not a trait we train out of him.
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How fast has Mills been wanging it down?
Good news if Archer is available next year.
Mills has had a tough time for them so far, Archer is outshining him completely.
On international stuff, having atched them a couple of times now I'd be amazed if the aussies don't call d'arcy short up, he's been brilliant, scored a superb century this morning.
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On a domestic matter, was Higgins the one who scored a load for Middlesex on T20 Finals day the other year? I ask because Gloucestershire have signed him. Klinger and Tye are in for T20 as well.
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On a domestic matter, was Higgins the one who scored a load for Middlesex on T20 Finals day the other year? I ask because Gloucestershire have signed him. Klinger and Tye are in for T20 as well.
Klinger been a top player for a while but Tye is gonna be some player. certainly at T20 and maybe other white ball cricket.
Seems to take wickets for fun in T20 for Perth Scorchers. He isn't some young kid though he's 31 now.
Made his T20 Australia debut some time in 2016
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On a domestic matter, was Higgins the one who scored a load for Middlesex on T20 Finals day the other year? I ask because Gloucestershire have signed him. Klinger and Tye are in for T20 as well.
Klinger been a top player for a while but Tye is gonna be some player. certainly at T20 and maybe other white ball cricket.
Seems to take wickets for fun in T20 for Perth Scorchers. He isn't some young kid though he's 31 now.
Made his T20 Australia debut some time in 2016
He did T20 for us that year but was injured last season. Not anything close to an ardent Big Bash watcher but he seems to have improved from what I have seen.
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I thought he had a 7 year wait (so 2022-23) but maybe wrong.
As he was resident in this country under age of 18 qualification period is 4 years. 7 years for other age groups etc.
Just coming back to this I am pretty certain he came after he turned 18, so it is 7 yrs.