Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Scratchins on October 23, 2016, 08:42:38 AM
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This is my 1st post and I apologise to anyone who thinks that it should be more Villa related but I feel strongly about this issue.
Hundreds of people were far more affected than me but on the night of November 21st 1974 our 9 year old niece stayed over while her mom went into Birmingham city centre with friends. We could not contact her and spent a sleepless night; there were tears when mom opened the door next morning. A young girl at work spent the day crying, her dad had grounded her and stopped her from going to the Mulberry Bush the night before, friends had died.
21 people were killed that night, Villa and Blues supporters amongst them.
Some of their children are still fans, with allegiances still divided between both teams.
Relatives of those who died are currently battling to get funding to be legally represented at a new inquest, which they hope will uncover the truth behind the attacks.
But the Government has refused to fund them on the same basis that the relatives of those who died in the Hillsborough disaster were supported.
Campaigners hope to persuade both sets of fans to join in a minute’s applause in the 21st minute of the game between Birmingham City and Aston Villa on Sunday, October 30.
I hope that we can show that when our own need help, we can come together as a city for 1 minute.
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I heard Andy Burnham ask a Question at pmqs this week. He asked if the relatives of the deceased would get public funding to fight for justice.
He cited that the West Midlands Police were getting tax payer funding to fight their case.
Theresa may indicated that the Victims families would also get public funding but she was not clear about How.
IE: if their are various solicitors representing groups of families I dont know how the money will be distributed.
I wish you well and hope we get some answers.
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Just as a follow up Andy Burnhams question is here.
at minute 41.00
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I think there is a movement on social media and the local press for a 21st minute applause and it is one that I hope happens. It's the right time and place for it.
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I interviewed one of the survivors of the bombing in 2012. She said it hadn't really effected her life, but then mentioned that she still didn't travel into the city centre and avoided any public places. It was like she was still in shock all those years later.
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I will be joining in the minutes applause.
More importantly, I hope you get the answers you are looking for.
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I will join in the applause and I sincerely hope it will get 100% backing in the ground. The families of the dead and injured have been fobbed off for far too long. I don't think justice will ever be done but if the families can at least get some honest answers then it may help them a little. Puts football and local rivalries into perspective.
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I was wondering when we might get involved in a 21st minute thing for the '21' - about bloody time and all power to it!
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I think there is a movement on social media and the local press for a 21st minute applause and it is one that I hope happens. It's the right time and place for it.
It is the time & place for it, so I hope everybody in the ground puts their hands together & sings 'Justice for the 21' with everything they've got. Sod rivalry when a common cause is way, way bigger than that. Here's to justice, finally.
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Justice for the 21. May this campaign never be allowed to fade. These families need and deserve answers.
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How do we get the message across to the Blues fans?
It would be a great show of unity but I fear that at the extreme ends of both our fan bases there is a level of hatred beyond comprehension that would only see a "win" for the other side
I really hope for once this can be forgotten for a single minute of unity
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I am sure Blues fans will hear it down all the same routes as us and it's a cross city thing, not a Villa thing, so they are likely to share similar sentiments on it I would have thought.
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I agree, I don't think they'll be any problem getting a good round of applause and maybe even a chant going in that minute as long as it's widely promoted.
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The 'noses are aware of this so it's well publicised.
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About time
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This is exactly the sort of thing we should have a minute's applause for, not the proliferation of "my grandad's dead, he was a villa fan, he lived at number 25, can we have a minute's applause on the 25th minute, please?" style thing.
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This is exactly the sort of thing we should have a minute's applause for, not the proliferation of "my grandad's dead, he was a villa fan, he lived at number 25, can we have a minute's applause on the 25th minute, please?" style thing.
I agree.
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This is exactly the sort of thing we should have a minute's applause for, not the proliferation of "my grandad's dead, he was a villa fan, he lived at number 25, can we have a minute's applause on the 25th minute, please?" style thing.
Agree
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It should happen on the 21st minute at every game at Villa Park and the Sty until the final verdict of the enquiry is declared, not just for one game.
Without being derogatory in any way, maybe us Brummies are not 'Scouse' enough when it comes to getting vocal about something so important.
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Having just read 'Justice4the21.co.uk' I'm not clear about what the applause is for.
It seems the coroner has agreed to resume the inquest, ie due process is underway.
Is the applause in support of public funding for the lawyers representing the families? Or is it in memory of the dead? Or something else?
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I think it is for funding i.e the legal bill
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Having just read 'Justice4the21.co.uk' I'm not clear about what the applause is for.
It seems the coroner has agreed to resume the inquest, ie due process is underway.
Is the applause in support of public funding for the lawyers representing the families? Or is it in memory of the dead? Or something else?
I'm guessing by the name you're resident in the area, but I find it very surprising that it isn't more widely known locally that the families are appealing for legal aid for representation at the inquiry. It's been on all the local news, in the local rag, all over social media, and raised at PMQs by Andy Burnham. Hopefully this one minute of unity between Birmingham people can raise awareness and keep the pressure up on the government.
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So the applause is in support of the families' claim for legal aid?
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Did anyone else go the match in 1974 at St. Andrews just after the bombing?
I can't remember it that well, but vaguely recall it was England vs .Blues & Villa.
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So the applause is in support of the families' claim for legal aid?
Yes, to match that given to the Hillsborough campaign. They have not been refused yet, the Government appear to be unwilling to make a decision. I imagine the purpose of the applause will be to raise awareness and therefore put more pressure on the Home Secretary.
One of the main complaints regarding the Hillsborough campaign was the imbalance in resources when taking on the state.
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So the applause is in support of the families' claim for legal aid?
Yes. They have already been refused funding by Amber Rudd, and now they are being forced to wait for a decision for aid from higher up. You can understand the government of the day being reticent on the matter, what with it being a massive establishment cover-up (miscarriages of justice, lost evidence including a bomb, 75-year embargo on files of evidence) and all that.
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Did anyone else go the match in 1974 at St. Andrews just after the bombing?
I can't remember it that well, but vaguely recall it was England vs .Blues & Villa.
Yes, I did but I remember very little about it
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So the applause is in support of the families' claim for legal aid?
Yes. They have already been refused funding by Amber Rudd, and now they are being forced to wait for a decision for aid from higher up. You can understand the government of the day being reticent on the matter, what with it being a massive establishment cover-up (miscarriages of justice, lost evidence including a bomb, 75-year embargo on files of evidence) and all that.
There's a bit more to it than this. The families (and their lawyers) wanted their legal costs met by the government direct (as they were for the Hillsborough families) and it's this that's been refused.
They've instead been invited to apply for exceptional funding from the Legal Aid Agency, which would mean the lawyers doing the work at a much lower rate, and that such an application would have Ms Rudd's blessing (though the LAA is supposed to be independent of such influence). I'd assume the lawyers are less happy about this idea.
Another complication is that the law form in question is Northern Irish, so wouldn't ordinarily be eligible for legal aid payments from the LAA (England & Wales). I'm not sure why the families have a NI firm representing them.
It's a dog's dinner, but I'd bet it'll get fudged and sorted.
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There's a hint in some reports that it's tied in with the Unionist movement. The Traditional Unionist Voice hosted the campaign's team in 'voicing their plight' to the people of Northern Ireland.
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There's a hint in some reports that it's tied in with the Unionist movement. The Traditional Unionist Voice hosted the campaign's team in 'voicing their plight' to the people of Northern Ireland.
The group state that they are a non-political organisation.
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I lost friends and a very close one and was close by at the time to witness the aftermath. I have said on here before and elsewhere I would much prefer we moved on and not bring all this back again. I understand that some will feel very strongly about this, but remember, it is not everyone who thinks this should happen. I really do not want to go over my reasons except to say that I have thought about this many times.
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I certainly applaud the memory of those who lost their lives.
Looking for "justice", however, simply opens up a huge can of worms, bringing in the suspicion of UK government collusion with the bombings of bars in the Republic of Ireland during the 1970s. I can't see the British government (or Irish government, for that matter) ever wanting the spotlight shone on such an awful chapter in Hiberno/British history.
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There's a hint in some reports that it's tied in with the Unionist movement. The Traditional Unionist Voice hosted the campaign's team in 'voicing their plight' to the people of Northern Ireland.
The group state that they are a non-political organisation.
I'm sure the Justice for 21 are.
I was just pointing out the inference in some reports on why a NI law firm might have been offering their services pro bono.
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I certainly applaud the memory of those who lost their lives.
Looking for "justice", however, simply opens up a huge can of worms, bringing in the suspicion of UK government collusion with the bombings of bars in the Republic of Ireland during the 1970s. I can't see the British government (or Irish government, for that matter) ever wanting the spotlight shone on such an awful chapter in Hiberno/British history.
surely each case deserves justice on its own merits though?
sweeping countless atrocities under the carpet and having mass murderers walking the streets is a huge price to pay for the peace process.
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Was it reported this morning that Legal Aid has been granted? I was coming out the house as they were saying it on the news so it may have been that a decision is expected today...
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WW you are correct - in part. One of the families has got funding, a number of others represented by solicitors in Northern Ireland have been refused but told to come to an "arrangement" with the firm in England. a number of other families haven't yet applied for funding.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-37782333
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I've seen suggestions that both sets of fans sing YNWA which seems a bit daft if i'm honest. Clapping and singing "Justice for the 21" strikes me as being far more likely to have most joining in, and s being more effective, rather than YNWA.
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I won't be singing it. Mawkish Broadway shite.
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How can we expect Governmental justice when they have already let the murderous bastards representatives form a political party and even meet the queen
It sickens me that they command a voice
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Please excuse my almost complete ignorance on this topic, and "the Troubles" in general, but has there ever been the suggestion of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission for Northern Ireland à la post-apartheid South Africa to provide the information and closure required for families etc... without the perpertrators necessarily fearing punishment and thus "happier" to reveal all ?
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How can we expect Governmental justice when they have already let the murderous bastards representatives form a political party and even meet the queen
It sickens me that they command a voice
Many people, on both sides of the divide, including the Queen herself have put their anger and grief to one side in order to help further the peace process. They have my utmost admiration, it can't have been easy.
The "Justice for the 21" campaign is not about taking one side or another but looking for the truth. From the bombers, to the investigating Police through Whitehall and beyond the truth has been buried and these families seek answers. As a cynic, I very much doubt they'll get them but I don't blame them for trying.
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How can we expect Governmental justice when they have already let the murderous bastards representatives form a political party and even meet the queen
It sickens me that they command a voice
It may sicken you, and a lot of other people. If you'd spent your life checking your car for bombs every morning and making sure you didn't come home from work the same route two days running you might have a different view.
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All sides deserve credit for abandoning violence in favour of a political settlement.
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One point which I simply don't understand is why the most vocal family seem to be using a solicitor not from England ....if these are the rules for granting legal aid then the family should comply with that .....
While what happened was terrible and nobody says otherwise this happened in a period of unrest and I am not sure that we should bring this into the football world ....if we are not careful we will need a minutes clapping for about 10 different things at each game
I hope that the matter will eventually be put to bed but I doubt "justice" will ever be done in some peoples eyes
I don't believe this topic should have a thread in this forum
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I don't believe this topic should have a thread in this forum
Well, it's about something that is happening at a match that Villa are playing in four days.
So whether you agree with it happening or not, there isn't really a better place on the site for it to be discussed.
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Fancy that. Having your family members murdered and wanting justice.
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One point which I simply don't understand is why the most vocal family seem to be using a solicitor not from England ....if these are the rules for granting legal aid then the family should comply with that .....
While what happened was terrible and nobody says otherwise this happened in a period of unrest and I am not sure that we should bring this into the football world ....if we are not careful we will need a minutes clapping for about 10 different things at each game
I hope that the matter will eventually be put to bed but I doubt "justice" will ever be done in some peoples eyes
I don't believe this topic should have a thread in this forum
If my family members had been killed, I would want answers. Governments over the years have taken the steps they have thought necessary to bring peace to NI, but that doesn't mean the families have to accept the situation.
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One point which I simply don't understand is why the most vocal family seem to be using a solicitor not from England ....if these are the rules for granting legal aid then the family should comply with that .....
While what happened was terrible and nobody says otherwise this happened in a period of unrest and I am not sure that we should bring this into the football world ....if we are not careful we will need a minutes clapping for about 10 different things at each game
I hope that the matter will eventually be put to bed but I doubt "justice" will ever be done in some peoples eyes
I don't believe this topic should have a thread in this forum
I'm pretty sure there's more than one.
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I'm sure he can speak for himself, but to me it doesn't read to me that Leicester was in any way disagreeing with the general principle.
Putting out the view that the view that this is a Birmingham/Midlands/UK political justice issue rather than one related to football seems a fair point.
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Please excuse my almost complete ignorance on this topic, and "the Troubles" in general, but has there ever been the suggestion of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission for Northern Ireland à la post-apartheid South Africa to provide the information and closure required for families etc... without the perpertrators necessarily fearing punishment and thus "happier" to reveal all ?
Hell no and neither should there be. Both sides had their share of murderous bastards and like a fellow poster said earlier, to put aside their differences and agree to a peace deal is something I did not expect to see in my lifetime, while I don't admire them for doing this, I do have grudging respect.
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Please excuse my almost complete ignorance on this topic, and "the Troubles" in general, but has there ever been the suggestion of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission for Northern Ireland à la post-apartheid South Africa to provide the information and closure required for families etc... without the perpertrators necessarily fearing punishment and thus "happier" to reveal all ?
Hell no and neither should there be. Both sides had their share of murderous bastards.
Strongly disagree with you first assertion, primarily because of the truth of the second sentence.
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How can we expect Governmental justice when they have already let the murderous bastards representatives form a political party and even meet the queen
It sickens me that they command a voice
It may sicken you, and a lot of other people. If you'd spent your life checking your car for bombs every morning and making sure you didn't come home from work the same route two days running you might have a different view.
I think you will find there were murderous bastards on all sides-including the British.
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I don't think Dave was suggesting otherwise though?
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How can we expect Governmental justice when they have already let the murderous bastards representatives form a political party and even meet the queen
It sickens me that they command a voice
Many of the murderous bastards at that time were in the pay of HRM.
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This thread is about justice for 21 Brummies murdered by Irish Republican terrorists. It might not be the best forum to air grievances about Bloody Sunday.
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Please excuse my almost complete ignorance on this topic, and "the Troubles" in general, but has there ever been the suggestion of a Truth & Reconciliation Commission for Northern Ireland à la post-apartheid South Africa to provide the information and closure required for families etc... without the perpertrators necessarily fearing punishment and thus "happier" to reveal all ?
Sinn Fein have repeatedly asked for one to be fair to them. The cynic in me would suggest that there is an element of populism in their stance here in that they know it's never going to happen so it's a handy one for scoring political points.
Adams for one has always refused to confirm he was in the IRA despite numerous sources confirming he was on the Army Council since the 70s, one of the doves that eventually persuaded them to give up their guns. He will never tell his story for example, most never will unless it's released post their death when they can't be challenged factually.
They have helped to identify remains of people they disappeared over the past number of years. Something that wasn't as forthcoming south of the border post independence as Adams reminds his detractors here regularly.
What I can't understand is how the perpertrators of atrocities like the Birmingham bombings live with themselves afterwards. Many of these "republicans" for example are very wealthy men post their military careers living in mansions.
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Their post "military" careers are as poisonous as their Armalite days. Still, somebody's got to peddle coke and methamphetamine, if you've got the bones of a para military structure and a number of working class thugs who've made their bones and nothing else to do, it seems a natural career choice.
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There seems to be general agreement for the applause and everyone knows about it by now so, as this thread is moving away from football-related matters, let's bring it to a close and if anyone wants to start a similar discussion in off topic, feel free.