Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: peter w on July 25, 2016, 09:12:31 PM
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Surprised no-one has mentioned this.
http://www.expressandstar.com/sport/aston-villa-fc/2016/07/25/aston-villa-will-explore-safe-standing-issue/?
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Worth a go in my view
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Not sure why no-one has thought about it before...
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A step back.
Mind you at games particularly away from home, standing is the norm.
The whole issue is the entrance fee and to be honest Villa Park is affordable, therefore I think we should be one of the last clubs to think down these lines.
We have moved forward 30 odd years, nostalgia is good a good thought but for me I wouldn't want to see it brought to Villa Park. Besides it would ruin the balance of our ground, where even the Witton End has some character.
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And the door is opened...we should be right at the forefront of this idea, and are, and hopefully this comes to fruition.
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There's nothing nostalgic about rail seats for safe standing.
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A designated place to stand legally and safely, better atmospheres, hopefully lower prices: Wins all around for me. I hope someone picks up from where Faulkner left off.
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Besides it would ruin the balance of our ground, where even the Witton End has some character.
Sadly, the Doug Ellis and the Trinity Road have none.
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The lower prices part is a bit of a red herring because safe standing has designated spaces for each person. It can add about a third to capacity, but we'd still have the same number of fans so they'd need to charge the same to bring the same money in.
Also, unless a stand is fully rebuilt, it can't take any extra people because the exits and concourses would still only be adequate for the original capacity. Rebuilding a stand costs money they would need to recoup.
The other thing that won't be coming back is just randomly wandering to the bit of the terrace where your mates usually stand. You will have a ticket for a particular spot. That is how safe standing will avoid any possibility of crushes.
Just want standing back because you want to stand because it makes you feel more involved, and you think it improves the atmosphere. Or, want standing back because you want a sit whilst the people who want to stand are in another bit of the ground.
Don't want it back for nostalgia, because old style 'get loads more people in and find your mates when you get there' type standing ended really badly.
I'm pleased to see Dr X might pick this idea back up. Tom Fox was absolutely not on this at all.
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Stood at a game for the first time in ages vs Telford,would love to see it back at VP.Big factor for me is that you always kept warmer in the winter.
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As the article alludes to Villa have been talking about this for a good 4 years now so i'm not going to hold my breath. It would be a great idea, it'd save people getting injuries from falling over seats when celebrating for a start. From what i've seen of the standing section at Celtic it looks like it's been popular and helped build on what the ultra group up there has been doing for the last few years by allowing more people to get involved in the section.
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It is, I would argue, very neccessary - at the moment, there's a real clash between those who want to stand and those who don't. Remember all the fuss about people standing at Wembley? Think also of the weekly disputes on the Holte between older supporters who want to sit and the younger fans who want to stand. I know that if there was a safe standing area in the corner of the lower Holte, I'd be in there, as I could stand and support my team while other fans sit. In essence, it would reduce the conflicts between standing and sitting fans and add to the atmosphere. Take Germany, for example.
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No argument for me, standing in seated areas is unsafe and unsociable.
Safe standing is much safer and much more sociable.
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No argument for me, standing in seated areas is unsafe and unsociable.
Safe standing is much safer and much more sociable.
Dead on. But don't expect me to be sociable!
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Momentum is building, alsorts of problems at West ham, as those who have stood for years at Upton Park are now in areas where theres football tourists, premiership types, and genuine supporters who want to sit. Segregation of standing supporters and sitting supporters is the only answer, in safe and modern rail seat model. Others wise punch ups, kids cryin, old people having to stand wil continue.
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Momentum is building, alsorts of problems at West ham, as those who have stood for years at Upton Park are now in areas where theres football tourists, premiership types, and genuine supporters who want to sit. Segregation of standing supporters and sitting supporters is the only answer, in safe and modern rail seat model. Others wise punch ups, kids cryin, old people having to stand wil continue.
Are you going to organise it?
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Momentum is building, alsorts of problems at West ham, as those who have stood for years at Upton Park are now in areas where theres football tourists, premiership types, and genuine supporters who want to sit. Segregation of standing supporters and sitting supporters is the only answer, in safe and modern rail seat model. Others wise punch ups, kids cryin, old people having to stand wil continue.
Are you going to organise it?
most clubs and ours being the most prominent done it years ago naturally. whufc have created an online standing sitting swap shop, cos the gold, sullervan and the tart haven't got a clue on how to run a football clubs
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Porno Dwarf, Tumnus and Our Karren won't give two fcuks about safe or otherwise standing, singing sections or even the furore over their fans behaviour. They've pulled off the deal of the century and will sail off into the sunset with their ill gotten gains as soon as they get the chance.
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Safe standing had a mention just before the Old Firm game but it obviously caused no problems as not a peep about it since - No News is No News I suppose
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Momentum is building, alsorts of problems at West ham, as those who have stood for years at Upton Park are now in areas where theres football tourists, premiership types, and genuine supporters who want to sit. Segregation of standing supporters and sitting supporters is the only answer, in safe and modern rail seat model. Others wise punch ups, kids cryin, old people having to stand wil continue.
Couldn't have said it better myself
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Good article on our club's views on safe standing In the evening mail. very encouraging.
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Its works in Germany and the atmosphere is better across the board isn't it? Do we want our atmosphere to end up like that at Arsenals new ground? I think they have big furry leather seats for them all to keep their arses warm eh
Everyone stands at all of our away games and at home games in the Lower North Stand and elsewhere for the whole game. A sizeable minority want to stand and most want to sit. I am sure we can put in a common sense arrangement and now the Celts have implemented it the precedent has been set. The Dr should implement this.
I was standing at Fulham watching our under 23`s the other week and they had a safe standing area. The atmosphere was s**t but that was only because I was the only c**t in the stand.. ;D
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It's rather pathetic that grown men will start to fight each other over standing or sitting, and then use it as an excuse for a campaign. If anything this argument would make authorities enforce sitting even more.
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It's rather pathetic that grown men will start to fight each other over standing or sitting, and then use it as an excuse for a campaign. If anything this argument would make authorities enforce sitting even more.
if you mean the weekly fighting that takes places at whu's new stadium it only happens as sitting and standing supporter's are not segregated unlike they were at Upton Park.
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There does seem to be a growing national momentum for it at present. Now that the Hillsborough Inquest is completed, and it is clear that crowd management rather than standing or fan behaviour was the cause of the disaster, I think it will be easier to move this on without it being disrespectful.
In the long run, whole new stands will be needed to fully implement safe standing. Recent stands can only be converted to one standing space per seat because the number of exits, toilets, and the size of the concourses would need to be increased for any added capacity. (Even the lower north which was an original terrace would probably not meet modern day H&S for any extra capacity). This would be OK as a starting point, but new stands should now be being built with full potential for conversion. It is only added capacity, being regularly sold, that can bring prices down.
In the meantime - simple things like selling away tickets from front to back for those who prefer to sit, and from back to front for those who prefer to stand, should be allowed to be explicit, and made clear on purchase where it isn't practical (such as at Liverpool & Chelsea where the upper tier overhang means that those at the back cannot see when standing. Home clubs should also be allowed to explicitly state to their own supporters where in the ground people are 'more likely' to stand for extended periods, and where standing is not tolerated.
I think the regulations need to be relaxed in this way for a gradual acclimatisation and 'testing' of how stewards and police manage standing crowds and to what extent it changes the dynamic. Once the battle to get people to sit is taken out of the equation, what are the crowd management issues? Are there new ones we hadn't thought of? Do old ones start to return? A slightly informal approach like this will either gradually convert those with doubts, or will show that a return to large scale standing isn't practical after all. You can only try and see what happens.
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There does seem to be a growing national momentum for it at present. Now that the Hillsborough Inquest is completed, and it is clear that crowd management rather than standing or fan behaviour was the cause of the disaster, I think it will be easier to move this on without it being disrespectful.
In the long run, whole new stands will be needed to fully implement safe standing. Recent stands can only be converted to one standing space per seat because the number of exits, toilets, and the size of the concourses would need to be increased for any added capacity. (Even the lower north which was an original terrace would probably not meet modern day H&S for any extra capacity). This would be OK as a starting point, but new stands should now be being built with full potential for conversion. It is only added capacity, being regularly sold, that can bring prices down.
In the meantime - simple things like selling away tickets from front to back for those who prefer to sit, and from back to front for those who prefer to stand, should be allowed to be explicit, and made clear on purchase where it isn't practical (such as at Liverpool & Chelsea where the upper tier overhang means that those at the back cannot see when standing. Home clubs should also be allowed to explicitly state to their own supporters where in the ground people are 'more likely' to stand for extended periods, and where standing is not tolerated.
I think the regulations need to be relaxed in this way for a gradual acclimatisation and 'testing' of how stewards and police manage standing crowds and to what extent it changes the dynamic. Once the battle to get people to sit is taken out of the equation, what are the crowd management issues? Are there new ones we hadn't thought of? Do old ones start to return? A slightly informal approach like this will either gradually convert those with doubts, or will show that a return to large scale standing isn't practical after all. You can only try and see what happens.
The one for one models is certainly achievable in the lower Holte and with many other stadiums. Stadiums which are being built like at spurs they can build the German model around the new developments . Although when Celtic were building their German model it was engineered in to an existing lower tier stand. I would take the one for one model either in the holte or lower Witton if that's all can be offered.
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This works very well at Celtic.
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There does seem to be a growing national momentum for it at present. Now that the Hillsborough Inquest is completed, and it is clear that crowd management rather than standing or fan behaviour was the cause of the disaster, I think it will be easier to move this on without it being disrespectful.
In the long run, whole new stands will be needed to fully implement safe standing. Recent stands can only be converted to one standing space per seat because the number of exits, toilets, and the size of the concourses would need to be increased for any added capacity. (Even the lower north which was an original terrace would probably not meet modern day H&S for any extra capacity). This would be OK as a starting point, but new stands should now be being built with full potential for conversion. It is only added capacity, being regularly sold, that can bring prices down.
In the meantime - simple things like selling away tickets from front to back for those who prefer to sit, and from back to front for those who prefer to stand, should be allowed to be explicit, and made clear on purchase where it isn't practical (such as at Liverpool & Chelsea where the upper tier overhang means that those at the back cannot see when standing. Home clubs should also be allowed to explicitly state to their own supporters where in the ground people are 'more likely' to stand for extended periods, and where standing is not tolerated.
I think the regulations need to be relaxed in this way for a gradual acclimatisation and 'testing' of how stewards and police manage standing crowds and to what extent it changes the dynamic. Once the battle to get people to sit is taken out of the equation, what are the crowd management issues? Are there new ones we hadn't thought of? Do old ones start to return? A slightly informal approach like this will either gradually convert those with doubts, or will show that a return to large scale standing isn't practical after all. You can only try and see what happens.
The one for one models is certainly achievable in the lower Holte and with many other stadiums. Stadiums which are being built like at spurs they can build the German model around the new developments . Although when Celtic were building their German model it was engineered in to an existing lower tier stand. I would take the one for one model either in the holte or lower Witton if that's all can be offered.
Me too and no doubt most people, it's just that I do see comments about it being cheaper, and it isn't going to be anytime soon! I think one for one is best to prove safety in the early stages anyway.
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There does seem to be a growing national momentum for it at present. Now that the Hillsborough Inquest is completed, and it is clear that crowd management rather than standing or fan behaviour was the cause of the disaster, I think it will be easier to move this on without it being disrespectful.
In the long run, whole new stands will be needed to fully implement safe standing. Recent stands can only be converted to one standing space per seat because the number of exits, toilets, and the size of the concourses would need to be increased for any added capacity. (Even the lower north which was an original terrace would probably not meet modern day H&S for any extra capacity). This would be OK as a starting point, but new stands should now be being built with full potential for conversion. It is only added capacity, being regularly sold, that can bring prices down.
In the meantime - simple things like selling away tickets from front to back for those who prefer to sit, and from back to front for those who prefer to stand, should be allowed to be explicit, and made clear on purchase where it isn't practical (such as at Liverpool & Chelsea where the upper tier overhang means that those at the back cannot see when standing. Home clubs should also be allowed to explicitly state to their own supporters where in the ground people are 'more likely' to stand for extended periods, and where standing is not tolerated.
I think the regulations need to be relaxed in this way for a gradual acclimatisation and 'testing' of how stewards and police manage standing crowds and to what extent it changes the dynamic. Once the battle to get people to sit is taken out of the equation, what are the crowd management issues? Are there new ones we hadn't thought of? Do old ones start to return? A slightly informal approach like this will either gradually convert those with doubts, or will show that a return to large scale standing isn't practical after all. You can only try and see what happens.
The one for one models is certainly achievable in the lower Holte and with many other stadiums. Stadiums which are being built like at spurs they can build the German model around the new developments . Although when Celtic were building their German model it was engineered in to an existing lower tier stand. I would take the one for one model either in the holte or lower Witton if that's all can be offered.
Me too and no doubt most people, it's just that I do see comments about it being cheaper, and it isn't going to be anytime soon! I think one for one is best to prove safety in the early stages anyway.
That's very interesting both.
Whatever the merits, I just cannot see the authorities doing anything to upset the Hillsborough families any time soon. It will need their acquiescence if not their blessing.
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There does seem to be a growing national momentum for it at present. Now that the Hillsborough Inquest is completed, and it is clear that crowd management rather than standing or fan behaviour was the cause of the disaster, I think it will be easier to move this on without it being disrespectful.
In the long run, whole new stands will be needed to fully implement safe standing. Recent stands can only be converted to one standing space per seat because the number of exits, toilets, and the size of the concourses would need to be increased for any added capacity. (Even the lower north which was an original terrace would probably not meet modern day H&S for any extra capacity). This would be OK as a starting point, but new stands should now be being built with full potential for conversion. It is only added capacity, being regularly sold, that can bring prices down.
In the meantime - simple things like selling away tickets from front to back for those who prefer to sit, and from back to front for those who prefer to stand, should be allowed to be explicit, and made clear on purchase where it isn't practical (such as at Liverpool & Chelsea where the upper tier overhang means that those at the back cannot see when standing. Home clubs should also be allowed to explicitly state to their own supporters where in the ground people are 'more likely' to stand for extended periods, and where standing is not tolerated.
I think the regulations need to be relaxed in this way for a gradual acclimatisation and 'testing' of how stewards and police manage standing crowds and to what extent it changes the dynamic. Once the battle to get people to sit is taken out of the equation, what are the crowd management issues? Are there new ones we hadn't thought of? Do old ones start to return? A slightly informal approach like this will either gradually convert those with doubts, or will show that a return to large scale standing isn't practical after all. You can only try and see what happens.
The one for one models is certainly achievable in the lower Holte and with many other stadiums. Stadiums which are being built like at spurs they can build the German model around the new developments . Although when Celtic were building their German model it was engineered in to an existing lower tier stand. I would take the one for one model either in the holte or lower Witton if that's all can be offered.
Me too and no doubt most people, it's just that I do see comments about it being cheaper, and it isn't going to be anytime soon! I think one for one is best to prove safety in the early stages anyway.
I would only be Be happy with the one for one model If there was a rail for the stander, not only to lean on but to create a gap infront of the person standing . Ajax are the only ones I have seen with the a rail with one for standing.At least a rail infront of the one for one would give you a very close feel of safe standing and terrace experince in a safe environment.
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Safe standing is rail seating and it does create an individual space with a rail in front for each stander.
In terms of Hillsborough, it is time to move on now. It needs to be said that the authorities used the lie of the 96's 'bad behaviour' to sterilise football and sit us all down. The lie has been exposed, and we should be allowed to stand, in properly designed and maintained stadiums, with proper crowd control. It is no disrespect to the 96 to do so in my opinion. I know it is more difficult if you were one of those who lost someone, but many stand on the Kop for many matches in unsafe seated areas - they too should be able to stand in safety and the legacy of the 96 should not be that they don't. There is a movement even amongst Liverpool fans which says this.
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I think the tentative success (tentative as it's only just started) of Celtic's safe standing and the more obvious success of the German model, added to excellent and sensitive reporting from the likes of Adrian Tempany who were in the Leppings Lane, will eventually see a reluctant acquiescence from the families of the 96. After all it has now been absolutely proved that terracing per se was in no way to blame.
As said above, if new build stadiums can be designed with the thoughts of being able to convert some of the ground easily to extra-capacity safe standing then that will be a big help.
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I heard a steward say to a kid if you want to sit there's a spare seat at the front, on Saturday so there is acceptance from clubs of unofficial standing areas.
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Safe standing is rail seating and it does create an individual space with a rail in front for each stander.
In terms of Hillsborough, it is time to move on now. It needs to be said that the authorities used the lie of the 96's 'bad behaviour' to sterilise football and sit us all down. The lie has been exposed, and we should be allowed to stand, in properly designed and maintained stadiums, with proper crowd control. It is no disrespect to the 96 to do so in my opinion. I know it is more difficult if you were one of those who lost someone, but many stand on the Kop for many matches in unsafe seated areas - they too should be able to stand in safety and the legacy of the 96 should not be that they don't. There is a movement even amongst Liverpool fans which says this.
Sorry, I've just seen this.
I reckon there'll be little or no appetite to upset the families, or even just the more vociferous amongst them, especially now. Even if the arguments are won, it'll take a politician sticking their neck out and I just can't see them doing that in the next few years.
I know you're involved in these issues and no doubt have a better sense of the mood, so I do hope you're right
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Safe standing is rail seating and it does create an individual space with a rail in front for each stander.
In terms of Hillsborough, it is time to move on now. It needs to be said that the authorities used the lie of the 96's 'bad behaviour' to sterilise football and sit us all down. The lie has been exposed, and we should be allowed to stand, in properly designed and maintained stadiums, with proper crowd control. It is no disrespect to the 96 to do so in my opinion. I know it is more difficult if you were one of those who lost someone, but many stand on the Kop for many matches in unsafe seated areas - they too should be able to stand in safety and the legacy of the 96 should not be that they don't. There is a movement even amongst Liverpool fans which says this.
Sorry, I've just seen this.
I reckon there'll be little or no appetite to upset the families, or even just the more vociferous amongst them, especially now. Even if the arguments are won, it'll take a politician sticking their neck out and I just can't see them doing that in the next few years.
I know you're involved in these issues and no doubt have a better sense of the mood, so I do hope you're right
The Spirit of Shankly - Liverpool Supporters Union, have it as Agenda item 8 at their AGM that Liverpool fans should be surveyed to see whether they want to join the campaign for rail seating. It'll be interesting to see how it goes, but it is a good sign that it is even being put out there. It wouldn't have been a couple of years ago.
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That's interesting, and I agree it wouldn't have been up for discussion.
Fingers crossed.
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Someone should do a survey amfy!
;-)
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Anyone see Celtic v city yesterday? It showed the demand for a safe standing section is higher than what the authorities and clubs think. Champions league games don't allow standing even In rail seated areas, yet they still stood, so did thousands of others in other parts of the ground. It was the same with the German team who played real Madrid on Tuesday night. The question is, when it happens not if now how much of the ground will be for standing? At villa park the whole of the lower Holte and 3 blocks of the lower north would satisfy the requirement.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40391764
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Its a step backwards - massive cop out by clubs who choose to implement it -some sort of justification for clubs such as Sheff Wed, Leeds etc who are currently ripping supporters off for tickets.
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Its a step backwards - massive cop out by clubs who choose to implement it -some sort of justification for clubs such as Sheff Wed, Leeds etc who are currently ripping supporters off for tickets.
How is it a step backwards?
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40391764
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40391764
Are the seats going to have springs on them so they can go Boing Boing?
I suppose trying it at a small ground which they can't fill and doesn't hold very many anyway is OK for a trial.
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The whole situation is a joke anyway as any Villa fan travelling away will tell you standing is the norm for away fans.somewhat annoying to the fans who do want to sit usually due to age there should be legal standing areas for the guys that prefer it.
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The whole situation is a joke anyway as any Villa fan travelling away will tell you standing is the norm for away fans.somewhat annoying to the fans who do want to sit usually due to age there should be legal standing areas for the guys that prefer it.
Not just away. I don't think I have sat down in the lower North Stand during a game for years.
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It's quite hard to actually fit in the seats in the North Stand anyway. It wasn't designed for seating and doesn't have the legroom. It would be perfect for safe standing I think.
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FROM the BEEB
League One side Shrewsbury Town have become the first English club to apply to have safe standing at their ground.
The club aims to have the rail seats fitted and in use, in a section of one stand, before the end of 2017-18.
Shrewsbury's Greenhous Meadow is 10 years old so is not governed by the all-seater stadiums legislation which permits clubs in Leagues One and Two to keep terraces that existed before 1994.
Standing has been banned in England's top two divisions since then.
That law change followed recommendations made in the Taylor Report into the 1989 Hillsborough disaster, which claimed the lives of 96 Liverpool fans.
Last November, Hillsborough Support Group secretary Sue Roberts told BBC Sport it would be a "backwards step" to bring back standing.
Earlier this month, West Bromwich Albion said they were willing to use The Hawthorns as part of the pilot scheme for safe standing - though a change in the law would be needed before that could come to fruition.
Celtic opened a 2,900-capacity safe-standing section last year after the Scottish champions were granted a safe-standing licence by Glasgow City Council.
Brian Caldwell, Shrewsbury Town's chief executive, says the move at Celtic has improved the atmosphere and he expects the same for his club.
"More people are encouraged to sing and get behind the team but also it's a safer environment as well," he told BBC Sport.
"Our safety officer has been up to Celtic to see it in action and was very, very pleased with how safe and secure it was."
The club, which finished 20th in League One in the 2016/17 season, hopes to raise the £50-75,000 required to finance the project through a crowdfunding campaign.
The campaign will be run jointly by the Shrewsbury Town Supporters' Parliament, who first approached the club with the proposal, and the Football Supporters' Federation.
They will invite donations from fans and the public in return for 'rewards' from the club.
Mike Davis, from the Supporters' Parliament, says it will help Shrewsbury Town compete with other sides in League One.
"The issue we tend to have is when we come up against the big clubs - the Sheffield Uniteds, the Boltons - who bring huge away crowds, we get drowned out a little bit," he said.
"So the hope is that bringing our vocal support behind the stand will improve that.
"Some of our fans already stand but they want an area where they can do that safely and also we want to be able to improve the atmosphere within the ground."
The application has been put to the Sports Ground Safety Authority and Shrewsbury say they hope to find out the outcome in a matter of weeks, rather than months.
The club's initial aim is to raise sufficient funds to purchase and install around 400 rail seats but if the target is missed, a smaller safe standing area will be created.
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Earlier this month, West Bromwich Albion said they were willing to use The Hawthorns as part of the pilot scheme for safe standing - though a change in the law would be needed before that could come to fruition.
We've been at the forefront of bringing back safe standing for years but which tinpot shadow-dwelling club do the Beeb reference in their article about it?!
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Earlier this month, West Bromwich Albion said they were willing to use The Hawthorns as part of the pilot scheme for safe standing - though a change in the law would be needed before that could come to fruition.
We've been at the forefront of bringing back safe standing for years but which tinpot shadow-dwelling club do the Beeb reference in their article about it?!
The one that's just discovered it, therefore it's news. Let them do it first; I'd rather someone else finds all the problems and we come along with a better version than theirs. See also, season cards.
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In fairness I think they've given us a fair bit of coverage regarding Safe Standing before.
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Fantastic news
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40767568
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43701400
West Brom have had a proposal to introduce safe standing at The Hawthorns rejected by the government.
The pilot scheme would have meant 3,600 seats in the Smethwick End were converted to 'rail seats', which can be locked in an upright position.
West Brom - who are bottom of the Premier League - hoped to install them in time for next season.
Sports minister Tracey Crouch says there are no plans to change the all-seater policy at football stadiums.
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How can you trial something when there's no one there to test it?
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How can you trial something when there's no one there to test it?
It would be very safe standing
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How can you trial something when there's no one there to test it?
They couldn’t find an empty stadium for the test so they’re planning it at the Sty next on a matchday. It will be perfectly safe.
Seriously though this is good step forward. To see the bottom Holte and maybe even bottom of the North with safe standing makes for a very good atmosphere. Let’s hope it happens.
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Govt say it ain't happening
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Disgrace
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I’m sure they have their reasons, but I think it’s a rather blinkered decision personally.
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Just shows how out of touch anyone in authority dealing with football really are.
Go to any big Villa game at VP or any away and you will find the Holte End /away section standing from the 1st through to the 90th minute. This standing is certainly more of a H & S concern that what safe standing proposals offer.
If the people making decisions understood football and the attendances then they would surely have come to a different conculsion.
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Think there’s a petition on the govt website to get this debated and hold the govt to account.
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Think there’s a petition on the govt website to get this debated and hold the govt to account.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207040
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Think there’s a petition on the govt website to get this debated and hold the govt to account.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207040
"33,716 signatures
Government responds to all petitions that get more than 10,000 signatures
At 100,000 signatures, this petition will be considered for debate in Parliament"
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Previously, these petitions have struggled to get above the 10,000 mark, which compared to the number that attend football is really small.
This time there seems to be some real momentum behind it as it's got around 25,000 signatures in the last 24 hours or so! Its important to get as many signatures as possible. Even if you think you have signed lots of safe standing petitions before, sign it now, re-share it on any social media you have, and make sure you click the confirmation email after doing it!
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I think if the fans want it then good I grew up standing at matches so I've had my time standing plus I have had four operations on my knee so when I go away and stand with the rest of the Villa fans I'm in pain for a few days later but I have had some of the best time watching the Villa on the terraces memories that I still look back on with fondness if they bring it back I hope the younger generation can have as much fun as I have had.
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Think there’s a petition on the govt website to get this debated and hold the govt to account.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207040
"33,716 signatures
Government responds to all petitions that get more than 10,000 signatures
At 100,000 signatures, this petition will be considered for debate in Parliament"
Don't hold your breath.
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39162.
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Fevered response in Birmingham and the West Midlands.
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I just struggle with the economics of this.
Converting seated areas to safe standing will cost money and the clubs are going to want to get that back through ticket sales. So rather than the cost of attending football falling as I think people expect, it's more likely to go up for the standing areas.
The only way this doesn't happen is if the remaining seating areas see price increases to compensate (why should they pay?) or if the crowd density increases to cover the cost increase, but I thought the whole idea of safe standing was that everyone's allocated a seat anyway, they're just locked away?
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In the long term though won't the maintenance of the standing areas be considerably less than a standing area? And the scope for change once installed would be cheaper too. This is not based on anything scientific just mere specualtion.
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In the long term though won't the maintenance of the standing areas be considerably less than a standing area? And the scope for change once installed would be cheaper too. This is not based on anything scientific just mere specualtion.
Not sure how the maintenance cost could be any less - you've still got seats (which we'll have to use when we're in the Champions League because aren't all seater stadia mandated for the CL?), but now you've also got metal railings too.
Plus, just thinking about my crowd density point, I'm not sure that we'd get a safety certificate if we tried to increase the density, especially for any stands built post-Taylor report, as the emergency exits, concourses, etc would've all been designed for the seated capacity.
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Surely in the grand scheme of things it wouldn't cost that much, and you will get more people in a certain area than with seats, hence more people = more ticket sales.
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In the long term though won't the maintenance of the standing areas be considerably less than a standing area? And the scope for change once installed would be cheaper too. This is not based on anything scientific just mere specualtion.
Not sure how the maintenance cost could be any less - you've still got seats (which we'll have to use when we're in the Champions League because aren't all seater stadia mandated for the CL?), but now you've also got metal railings too.
Plus, just thinking about my crowd density point, I'm not sure that we'd get a safety certificate if we tried to increase the density, especially for any stands built post-Taylor report, as the emergency exits, concourses, etc would've all been designed for the seated capacity.
The maintenance will be cheaper because the seats won't be used as much for example now during an average game the current seats can be constantly up and down. Which will obviously lead to the components wearing out quickly. With safe standing this won't be the case so the lifespan of the seat would increase considerably.
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My earlier post re cheaper admission comes from an earlier time in the game when standing on the terraces was always cheaper than buying a seat in the stand.
If that principle is still accepted, than fans who stand should have to pay less than those who sit. Hardly controversial. The clubs will resist any attempt to restore standing areas, as they will fear a reduction in income.
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My earlier post re cheaper admission comes from an earlier time in the game when standing on the terraces was always cheaper than buying a seat in the stand.
If that principle is still accepted, than fans who stand should have to pay less than those who sit. Hardly controversial. The clubs will resist any attempt to restore standing areas, as they will fear a reduction in income.
I can see safe standing areas being priced at the same level as the cheapest seats because the demand will be there, then annual rises will be bigger for seats than safe standing.
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Signed 43500 signatures
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Let's hope we get the chance to see if you're right, Dave.
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How many more people would fit into the same space if standing as opposed to sitting?
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Once a purpose built stand is in place you can get 3 people to every 2 seats.
If you just install rail seating in an existing stand, then you cannot increase capacity because there will not be enough exits or space in the concourse for it to be safe.
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Once a purpose built stand is in place you can get 3 people to every 2 seats.
If you just install rail seating in an existing stand, then you cannot increase capacity because there will not be enough exits or space in the concourse for it to be safe.
Thanks Amfy. So the attendance in the Holte would be the same without huge reconstruction?
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54000 on the petition now.
I don't think it will happen though, not for a long time. Having made peace, as they see it, with the Hillsborough families no-one in authority's going to rock that boat for the foreseeable.
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Exactly. Being cynical there’s no win for a politician in introducing it
Goes well and you get zero credit
Goes badly and you get all the blame including from people who advocated it, for not doing it properly
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Exactly. Being cynical there’s no win for a politician in introducing it
Goes well and you get zero credit
Goes badly and you get all the blame including from people who advocated it, for not doing it properly
Well the obvious answer is to do it properly then.
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54000 on the petition now.
I don't think it will happen though, not for a long time. Having made peace, as they see it, with the Hillsborough families no-one in authority's going to rock that boat for the foreseeable.
Even most of The Hillsborough families are coming round to it now. certainly LFC as a whole are.
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Being fully backed by our club.
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Celtic have put safe standing in over last year.
Seems to have been declared a success but haven't seen any detailed articles about it which is odd. Have they reduced ticket prices in that area?
There's certainly a demand for it so for me it's worth a go to put it in for space for 3k or so fans in the popular home ends.
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104,027 and rising.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207040
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Celtic have put safe standing in over last year.
Seems to have been declared a success but haven't seen any detailed articles about it which is odd. Have they reduced ticket prices in that area?
There's certainly a demand for it so for me it's worth a go to put it in for space for 3k or so fans in the popular home ends.
I think there's been quite a bit written and said about it and the overall impression is that it's been a massive success.
However, there is no prospect of standing sections bringing ticket prices down for the foreseeable future as capacities can only increase in purpose built stands.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43915570
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43915570
When Tracey Crouch said it was only a 'vocal minority' that wanted safe standing, presumably she was referring to the people that actually attend football matches.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43915570
When Tracey Crouch said it was only a 'vocal minority' that wanted safe standing, presumably she was referring to the people that actually attend football matches.
Tracey 'won't ever make such a difficult decision' Crouch.
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I just got the email and it will be debated in Parliament on 25th June.
Thanks to the vocal minority who signed.
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Good work Amfy.
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I've been invited to attend a Parliamentary Round Table in London on this next Wednesday by the shadow MP for Sport!
Excitng times!
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Well done amfy!
Hopefully it's not just a cynical bit of political point scoring and something might actually change off the back of it.
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It's a start (again) but can only get excited when Tracey Crouch is inviting you around for a cuppa.
It's just opposition politics atm I think, rally around a popular cause without any chance of it being implemented in the near future in the top two divisions.
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Be careful, Amfy - the last time I attended a Round Table do I came away £50 worse off having sponsored a float in the Solihull Carnival
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I took Mrs Oldtimernow to Wembley for her first visit to the play off final and she loved it......right up to kick-off.
Not for the atmosphere or the performance which she was reasonably happy with in the second half , but being just about 5'4" tall she was forced to stand by people around and in front of her standing up for the whole of the match.
She was upset that having paid for a seat she had to stand and I must agree with her , had we taken our granddaughter for her first visit as a six year old she would have seen very little.
I think that about 90-95% of our supporters were in a similar position, unsafely standing in a seated area. Safe standing for those who wish to stand would be a far better solution because those that want to sit would be able to do so. Those breaking the rules would be dealt with far more effectively whilst the standing areas would also be able to release their emotions.
Win Win all round!
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There is a survey out on Twitter from the shadow minister which is a really intelligent set of questions which give the opportunity for points like oldtimernow's to be put forward.
I think the point that it's for people who want to sit as well is a really important one to get heard loud and clear.
Tracey Crouch made an argument that lots of people want a mix of sitting and standing. Well that isn't available in the current situation either, unless you count the vaguely defined 'moments of high excitement' ruling. At the same time, I pointed out that my 82 year old dad doesn't mind if he is sitting or standing - he just doesn't want to have to keep getting up and down!
I don't know how to transfer the link - I can't seem to carry anything across to H&V on my iPad, but I am sure someone can do it.
Like with the petition, we have done a lot of surveys before - but we are now into 'real deal' territory. It's about to be debated in parliament later this month - let's make sure our representatives know what the arguments are.
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Beeb
A large majority of fans want the choice of safe standing in football stadiums and almost half say they would go to more matches as a result, according to an English Football League survey of more than 33,000 people.
In total, 94% of respondents want to choose between sitting and standing in safe, licensed areas.
Safe standing was most popular with those aged between 18 and 34.
The EFL says the survey will "inform" this month's debate in Parliament.
After 110,000 people signed a petition on safe standing in the Premier League and Championship, a debate at Westminster on the subject in England's top two divisions was triggered for 25 June.
Overall, the EFL's survey - said to have received the highest response of any of their campaigns - showed that 69% of the 33,000 would prefer to stand, while 22% would rather be seated.
Standing in English football's top two divisions was outlawed by the Football Spectators' Act in 1989.
It came following recommendations made in the Taylor Report into the Hillsborough disaster, which claimed the lives of 96 Liverpool fans.
Earlier this year, the government said there were no plans to change the all-seater policy after West Brom had a safe standing proposal rejected.
In April, the Premier League asked for more evidence before it could be allowed at top-flight stadiums.
The EFL survey was undertaken in conjunction with the Football Supporters' Federation and is said to have been "specifically designed to fully understand the views of fans of EFL clubs".
The Football Supporters' Federation recently said that sports minister Tracey Crouch was "declaring war on fans" by turning down safe standing.
EFL chief executive Shaun Harvey said the findings of their survey showed that a change in legislation could also help clubs "increase revenue from gate receipts".
"We stated at the outset that we wanted this survey to provide government with a clear indication of the strength of feeling amongst those supporters who attend matches every season," said Harvey.
"The response could not be clearer.
"With nearly half of all fans claiming they would attend more games if licensed standing was available, this campaign demonstrates how standing could play a significant role in boosting attendances, particularly with the under-35s demographic - a group of supporters that have a significant number of other options to consider when determining whether they will or will not attend a match."
Sports minister Crouch has previously said she was "grateful" for fans "expressing their views on this issue".
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Is this the survey you mean Amfy?
http://www.drrosena.co.uk/safestanding.html
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Or it could be this one that produced these results?
https://www.efl.com/siteassets/efl-documents/stand-up-for-choice-results-2018.pdf
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Is this the survey you mean Amfy?
http://www.drrosena.co.uk/safestanding.html
This one - Dr Rosena is the shadow minister - it's her survey.
Thank you!
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From my twitter feed
Rumours are that Ministers are considering postponing the Safe Standing review - this can't happen. The Government needs to listen to Labour's @DrRosena and back #SafeStanding.
pic.twitter.com/xTBUNoizHH
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Beeb
The Football Association has lent its support to safe standing at football grounds in England if there is "clear evidence that satisfies authorities".
The Premier League and EFL have also said they would support clubs' choice to install safe standing in the top two tiers of English football.
A government review is ongoing with a conclusion expected by the end of 2018.
Standing in English football's top two divisions was outlawed by the Football Spectators' Act in 1989.
It came following recommendations made in the Taylor Report into the Hillsborough disaster, which claimed the lives of 96 Liverpool fans.
An FA spokesperson said: "The FA supported the announcement from Sports Minister Tracey Crouch in June to conduct an external analysis of evidence in relation to the all-seater policy".
The statement added that the FA "supports clubs and leagues in having the option to choose whether they wish to provide standing options for supporters should there be clear evidence that satisfies the authorities over safety and security".
Support from fans has been growing for safe standing in recent years, with Celtic already adopting rail seating at their Celtic Park stadium.
In a recent survey run by the EFL, 94% of the 33,000 respondents said fans should be allowed to choose whether they wanted to stand or sit at games.
And in a Premier League survey, 70% of fans who attended games agreed in principle that standing should be offered as a choice.
Sports Minister Tracey Crouch said her "mind was open" to safe standing during a parliamentary debate in June after apologising for saying only a "vocal minority" wanted standing areas.
The Football Supporters' Federation (FSF), which has been campaigning for the introduction of safe standing to combat the problem of people standing up in seats and potentially causing injury, said the FA's support was "hugely encouraging".
But FSF's Peter Daykin said the FA's stance was "not surprising" as fans at Wembley often stood during games. "The FA understands the issues all too well," he added.
"The government said it wouldn't move until all the football authorities spoke with one voice, which is understandable, but now they are, all eyes are on the review.
"We are happy for the government to take its time with the review. We want a thorough understanding of all the arguments and it's too important an issue to rush."