Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Ads on May 31, 2015, 07:33:31 PM
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The midfield has been very poor for half a decade now, since we allowed our good quality players in Barry, Milner, Young and Downing to leave and sadly, Stan with his illness, all departing without replacement.
Yesterday more than any game highlight just how brittle and completely hollow it is. We were chronic and it was typified by the absent midfield.
To take stock we have;
Attacking/Wide
Grealish
Gil
N'Zogbia
Sinclair
Box-to-Box
Delph
Cleverley
Sitting/Defensive
Westwood
Gardner
Sanchez
Sylla
Sherwood has mainly used a diamond, but has also used a three and on occasions two deep lying players.
Really, when you look at that and compare it to somebody of modest means, such as Swansea and the balance their midfield three offers compared to that lot, then it's no wonder we get completely out classed by somebody as good as Arsenal.
So what do we do? If we have, for arguments sake, £20 million out of a potentially Benteke sale to spend on this area (assuming the usual £10 million and the balance of £12 million is spent up front and on the defence), who would you buy? Who would you keep?
Sylla is going to leave and for me the time is up for Charlie. He's failed to deliver anywhere close to what a £10 million player should. A Sigurdson type the help Jack, who despite yesterday, has been a massive positive, would really benefit our forwards.
I like Sinclair, direct and carries a goal threat.
Cleverley I would try and keep, but if not, we need a high energy midfielder to replace him and I feel a third type would benefit the squad, as both he and Delph have looked tired of late.
There is a place in every team for a water carrying metronome passer like Westwood. For our current mid table aspirations, I think he's fine. I'm not convinced on Sanchez. For every bit of good he does, he drops a rick. Getting in a real commanding central player would massively stiffen the spine. We need more leaders out there too.
I would love to see Gardner get another crack at it and see what he can do as a squad player.
Your thoughts? Is three/four midfielders enough? Would £20 million, even if spent wisely, do the trick to increase the quality of the midfield? Is four coming in and two/three going out to high a turnover?
Suffice to say, if we are going to end this half decade of struge, then this area of the pitch, more so than anywhere else, requires huge improvement in quality of we are to compete.
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Keep Grealish and Sinclair. Clearly doesnt rate Gil.
Keep Delph.
Keep Sanchez - rest of year.
The rest can go.
20m aint near enough unless we have a great scouting network, hithrto hidden for the last couple of decades.
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Surely you'd try to keep Cleverley?
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Surely you'd try to keep Cleverley?
No.
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Surely you'd try to keep Cleverley?
No.
I dont know if I agree with that or not.
Part of me thinks, he was fucking awful under Lambert - and by awful, I mean godawful - then under Sherwood he was really good for a bit, then at the end, poor again.
In the good bits, he was very good. The problem is, that's a period of about 8 games we're talking about.
Is that enough? I don't know.
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Been back to anonymous the last 3 games. 60k a week on him is quite a lot considering his impact across the whole season.
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Surely you'd try to keep Cleverley?
No.
I dont know if I agree with that or not.
Part of me thinks, he was fucking awful under Lambert - and by awful, I mean godawful - then under Sherwood he was really good for a bit, then at the end, poor again.
In the good bits, he was very good. The problem is, that's a period of about 8 games we're talking about.
Is that enough? I don't know.
As he wouldnt require a transfer fee, I'd attempt to sign him.
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Sorry Paulie was posting at the same time and didn't see your post. I think about 6 games though...
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I would have Cleverley on a free. I think he's a good player. But he'd be a rotation player for me. I think we need a touch of class in the middle to play with Delph.
Westwood still doesn't convince me entirely, but he's good enough as a squad option. I'd be looking to sign one established quality midfielder, and perhaps one up and coming option to complete our options.
I'd get rid of Sanchez. I think we're well passed the stage of patience with players here. We need players who will adapt quickly. He's also 29 soon. I don't think he'll have be quick enough of thought at this level. Too many errors. Plus he's got the Copa America so will undoubtedly be worn out by half way through next season and revert back to being useless after 60 minutes.
Keep Grealish and Sinclair. Shame about Gil but he's clearly not rated. So we need to ideally get in two replacements for Gabby, Weimann and Zogbia
For me-
Cleverley Free
Decent midfielder. Technically able.
A young replacement for Sanchez.
Two attacking mid/forwards.
That would be a push, but 3 of the above is the absolute minimum we need in.
Then we just need a whole new backline, a keeper and possibly a replacement for Benteke.
So not much.
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Grealish- Keep
Gil- Keep but if he has upset TS no point
N'Zogbia - Get rid
Sinclair- Keep
Delph -Keep
Cleverley-Keep
Westwood- keep/squad
Gardner- keep/squad
Sanchez- Get Rid
Sylla-get rid
Its the Dominant Central Midfielder that we lack and none of the above can do that.
If we just bought in that one player and managed to get rid of Zog, Sylla, Sanchez then I think we have enough. I would rather us spend £10mil + on a really decent player rather than lots of fillers.
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Oh for a midfielder to have a shot when near the penalty area ! Lost count of the number of times in the second half yesterday when Westwood, Grealish, Delph etc just lamely passed the ball sideways - hoping Gardner might at least have a pop if in such positions if he's given a chance
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Credit to MON but he built a great midfield . Crap defence but great midfield .
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the whole teams shite need big clear out
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Keep Delph, Richardson, Sinclair Hopefully Cleverley, the rest P45
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Credit to MON but he built a great midfield . Crap defence but great midfield .
I'm not a fan of MON at all, but didn't we have the best defensive record in the league at one point?
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Keep Delph, Richardson, Sinclair Hopefully Cleverley, the rest P45
Grealish wasn't at his best yesterday, but I think you're on your own in wanting him out of the club.
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Someone like Ki would've been brilliant in our midfield, he would've been a proper replacement for Stan at long last sitting infront of the back 4 and directing play. Shame he wanted silly money last summer. He's of a higher standard than Westwood.
It's all about variety in midfield. Ideally you wanted a midfield protector, someone who can pass and get forward with energy and score a few goals and then a number 10 type as the third midfileder. As Ads says Swansea have that with Ki directing play, Shelvey as the box to box player and Sigurdsson as the number 10.
Ours are too similar although they did look good for a six week spell. Ultimately as a group they just don't score enough goals, both Delph and Cleverley should be getting 5 + no problem and none of them can pick a pass to unlock a well drilled defence.
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This is the problem with signing Cleverley, is he too much like Delph. We need a ball player like Ki as you say Soccer, Corzola did exactly what that guy at the base of the spine needs to do yesterday, which is have the range of passing to pick out runners.
Added to that, we need to have width higher up the pitch. Grealish and Sinclair look the best bet to play either side of a centre forward, but the 3 in behind them need to have more vairety than Westwood, Cleverley and Delph. Delph is head an shoulders better than the other 2, so they should be looked to be replaced/ competition signed for them. Sanchez I think if we got a decent offer I would let go. We need 2-3 in the centre of the park with real quality. I do wonder if Sherwood will try for Huddlestone to go in there. Would not be my choice but will be someone he knows from Spurs days.
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Huddlestone is better than we have I guess .
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Can't see randy releasing too much money, TS may need to get a kit on and muck in.
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Physicality is required. An upgrade on Westwood so that Delph and, maybe Cleverly can get forward more. I really don't care either way if TC signs or not. I know he's on a free, but I think there are better players out there.
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I think we need both physicality and quality on the ball from deep though.
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I'd take Diame from Hull for a reasonable price.
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Attacking/Wide
Grealish
Gil
N'Zogbia
Sinclair
Box-to-Box
Delph
Cleverley
Sitting/Defensive
Westwood
Gardner
Sanchez
Sylla
With the exception of Delph, Sinclair and at a stretch Cleverley thats a horribly slow one paced group
If we are discounting Tonev then Sylla also is nowhere near the level required
Bar having a better shot, what would Gardner offer that Westwood doesnt? We should do the decent thing and let Gardner leave in the summer. Bit part football wont bring him on.
Cleverley had a good burst of games under Sherwood, but could be score 8 goals for us next season Im not so sure, Delph and him seem at their best in the same position pushing forward. Delph has far more about him though and we need him playing further forward next season imo
Nzogbia should be paid to leave if needs be. Not sure Sherwood rates either Sinclair or Gil, both have plenty to offer imo provided their workrate and fitness improves. Both were founding wanting away from him particularly. Gil and Grealish could rotate but not play on the same side.
Bar the signing of a very good holding midfielder with pace, the new midfield set up will depend on whoever Benteke's replacement is. If its Austin he will need guile and pace in the wide areas.
Jedinak could be a good call bringing some much needed leadership into the squad. Not sure how he went at club level after Xmas but Jeff Hendrick at Derby is a decent box to box midfielder with scope to improve.
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Huddlestone is better than we have I guess .
Marginally perhaps, but he's had a very disappointing season and I'd imagine is probably on fairly daft money. Hull will be desperate to offload however.
He's good in the base position but my worry about the Hud is the fact he's slow and can't tackle. With how Sherwood plays I'm not sure the base lying playmaker is the way to go, but perhaps more an energetic destroyer. Westwood and Sanchez are too slow, and Sanchez is too clumsy.
If we could find a budget version of Cazorla, even a player half as good, it would improve our midfield immeasurably.
I'd still sign Cleverley but would probably rotate him with Delph. Delph's tackling is slightly better now, there's also the possibility he could play deeper and be the mop up man. Then have TC and a classy new signing ahead.
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I think we need both physicality and quality on the ball from deep though.
Agree. Sanchez has got that physicality, but is a liability in possession at times. I have heard a few people on TV and radio talking about Chelsea needing a second holding midfielder for when they play in the bigger Champions League games and I think that could be the same with us. Diamond formation for some opponents and a 4-5-1 with a tight midfield four for games like Saturday.
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I would have started Sanchez and Westwood with Delph, Cleverley and Grealish in similar roles to they way Arsenal started. We carried Nzogbia badly. And to an extent Benteke.
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I would have started Sanchez and Westwood with Delph, Cleverley and Grealish in similar roles to they way Arsenal started. We carried Nzogbia badly. And to an extent Benteke.
We are, of course, talking from hindsight, but that is probably how I would have gone as well. The home game against them earlier in the season kept playing on mind last week and how easily they pulled us apart in midfield and defence. Adding Sanchez alongside Westwood and keeping Cleverley and Delph in quite tight, might have plugged a few of the gaps that appeared, leaving Grealish in behind Benteke. Might not have worked of course, but they wouldn't have had so much space in midfield.
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I think they would have beaten anything we put out there in fairness. But we need a couple of really good players to give more flexibility in that midfield this summer. Picking a forward pass and getting about the opposition in defensive areas.
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Huddlestone is better than we have I guess .
I think he's a horrible, horrible waste of space. Ambles around doing very little at all, except for reminding you occasionally about the exceptional ability he has on the ball with a brilliant long-range pass.
It would be ideal if Sanchez could improve enough (or Gardner as an outside chance) so that we could play him and Delph deeper and Grealish as the no. 10, opening the door for Sinclair to step into the side as an additional attacking threat, hopefully along with Gil or a new signing playing on the right. Otherwise, we might have to sign another central mid - our scouts have their work cut out to find someone who can manage that. There will be games where 4-3-3 will work, but we can't go there every game.
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Westwood is better than Huddlestone. He's underrated and was probably our best player the other day (not that that's saying much, but he didn't fuck up while those around him were).
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Huddlestone has a terrific shot on him. Aside from that I'm struggling to find ways to justify us buying him. He'd hardly pulled up any trees in his time at Hull. Yes, he's bigger than our midfielders and considerably slower.
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I'd take Diame from Hull for a reasonable price.
I quite like Diame but he's a little bit injury prone.
I'm not a big fan of Huddlestone. He's never really impressed me whenever i've seen him.
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You mean we had one???........ :o
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Huddlestone.... please make it go away. We already have too many non or low season scoring midfielders.
Saying that though Hull did score more and concede less goals than us and went down, kind of f'd up.
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Westwood is better than Huddlestone. He's underrated and was probably our best player the other day (not that that's saying much, but he didn't fuck up while those around him were).
Westwood's lack of mobility and physicality gets badly exposed against the top teams.
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The midfield needs a leader. I think Sherwood placed too much pressure on their young shoulders and the lack of experience from the team really showed. They weren't able to play with freedom in a relaxed manner. It will be interesting to see what Sherwood does in the transfer market.
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Westwood is better than Huddlestone. He's underrated and was probably our best player the other day (not that that's saying much, but he didn't fuck up while those around him were).
Westwood's lack of mobility and physicality gets badly exposed against the top teams.
Don't rate Westwood as anything other than a squad player. Think he has not improved in 3 years at this level and he wasn't that good to start with.
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Ok, taking your parameters of give-or-take £20m of Benteke$$ being spent on the midfield, I think I would focus on maybe a few million of it being spent on keeping Cleverley, offering him some nice package to pick us, as the transfer is free. I think although our defence sometimes looks suspect, often it is due to the pressure being put on it by losing the midfield battle, which is why I agree the majority of the fee should be spent on the middle.
Then instead of buying a few players for the remaining £17m or so, I would blow it all on ONE player. Rather than a few decent players coming in to the midfield, it needs a large injection of quality and drive to bring the best out of Delph/Sanchez/Grealish etc (all of whom I think still have a part to play). We already possess 'ok' Premier League quality in there, but we need one aspect that would take it to the next level.
Now who that X-factor player might be is open to debate. I think we might be ok in the no. 10 role, depending on how he treats Gil after pre-season - we already know Grealish will offer something there. Which then (if we are operating a three man MF which I think we should be) leaves either the 'no. 6', box to box role, or a more defensive, ball-playing midfielder. I'd maybe look at raiding a top 6 six team for a player who is more on the fringes or disenchanted.. Maybe if Liverpool do come in for Benteke trying to get Emre Can in a swap deal? Bringing a player like Cabaye back for £15m from PSG (where he's played very little this season, and they might be looking to balance the FFP books ahead of a big Di Maria bid)? Thats the kind of player I think we need to drop in to the midfield, and I believe it will get the best out of the rest of the team. We've got to go big on a player for once, someone to help form the spine of the team. A Can/Delph/Sanchez midfield three? No doubt a top 10 midfield.
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Westwood, Sanchez, Delph, Grealish, Sinclair and hopefully Cleverley all have something to offer.
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I'd rather see Gardner given a chance than spend money on Huddlestone.
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I would have started Sanchez and Westwood with Delph, Cleverley and Grealish in similar roles to they way Arsenal started. We carried Nzogbia badly. And to an extent Benteke.
We are, of course, talking from hindsight, but that is probably how I would have gone as well. The home game against them earlier in the season kept playing on mind last week and how easily they pulled us apart in midfield and defence. Adding Sanchez alongside Westwood and keeping Cleverley and Delph in quite tight, might have plugged a few of the gaps that appeared, leaving Grealish in behind Benteke. Might not have worked of course, but they wouldn't have had so much space in midfield.
We played that at Man. City didn't we? Pretty sure we didn't have a shot up there until it went 2 nil and we made some attacking subs. Think it's a case of dammed if you do and don't for Sherwood on that one.
In hindsight Gabby should've started as at least then we could've just lumped it long and he'd have I'm sure caused panic in the Arsenal defence and created a bit more space for Jack and Benteke to work with.
The problem is he should've pulled his finger out v Burnley and his other sub appearences to make himself a certain starter for the final. He didn't so I didn't have an issue with N'zogbia starting.
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I would have started Sanchez and Westwood with Delph, Cleverley and Grealish in similar roles to they way Arsenal started. We carried Nzogbia badly. And to an extent Benteke.
We are, of course, talking from hindsight, but that is probably how I would have gone as well. The home game against them earlier in the season kept playing on mind last week and how easily they pulled us apart in midfield and defence. Adding Sanchez alongside Westwood and keeping Cleverley and Delph in quite tight, might have plugged a few of the gaps that appeared, leaving Grealish in behind Benteke. Might not have worked of course, but they wouldn't have had so much space in midfield.
We played that at Man. City didn't we? Pretty sure we didn't have a shot up there until it went 2 nil and we made some attacking subs. Think it's a case of dammed if you do and don't for Sherwood on that one.
In hindsight Gabby should've started as at least then we could've just lumped it long and he'd have I'm sure caused panic in the Arsenal defence and created a bit more space for Jack and Benteke to work with.
The problem is he should've pulled his finger out v Burnley and his other sub appearences to make himself a certain starter for the final. He didn't so I didn't have an issue with N'zogbia starting.
The fact we gifted Manchester City two goals hardly helped! As I said, that particular horse has bolted now, so no particular need to discuss it further, but we do need to find a way of playing that makes us tougher to beat when we play the likes of Arsenal. An aggregate score of 12-0 over three game is awful.
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We need to find a way of playing against sides who are confident on the ball and have good movement. I think pressing their deep lying play makers higher up the pitch would be one way. I said 15 minutes in on Saturday that for all the use he was with the ball, NZogbia should have just gone and man marked Corzola for 20 minutes, because it would have stemmed the flow of balls being pinged from him to their flanks that stretched us ragged.