Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Legion on December 23, 2014, 07:05:33 PM
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Given the recent incident regarding the Manchester United supporting Father and his children, is it worth considering a section of the ground being given over to families for fans of both teams?
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With the current low attendances who would sit there other than away fans? Is there a need?
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Absolutely not. Under no circumstances.
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In a word, no!
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Not for me.
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no
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Nope
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No.
The whole positive idea will be abused by twats.
eg: the bloke who was there on Saturday.
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No.
Mainly because "the incident" was by a twat and I refuse to do anything that might seem that he had any point whatsoever.
Beyond that, sure, why not. I thought Fulhams was rather nice.
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Yep, good idea
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Yep, good idea
I think so aswell. Along the lines of what Fulham provide.
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No thanks
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It would be a good until you get a game with cheap tickets.Then the idiot comes out to play.
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I think Fulham worked as the seats for their neutral end Al Fayed sold them in Harrods to genuine tourists who wanted to do a prem game while in London and "tick the box".
I like the idea but not sure it's going to work in downtown Witton.
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Given the recent incident regarding the Manchester United supporting Father and his children, is it worth considering a section of the ground being given over to families for fans of both teams?
That's not a Neutral section. What you describe is an area that contains families that are supporting one of the teams playing.
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A neutral area just means empty seats for about fifteen games a season and extra glory-hunting scum for the remaining few. It's a no from me.
I remember in 1993 when we were competing for the title, Manure gave us fewer than a thousand tickets at their soulless industrial estate.
We shouldn't be bending over backwards to find ways to give those ****** extra tickets.
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Eh? Does that really matter? I refer the honourable gentleman to Fulham.
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Who are you replying to Leeg? Me or cd?
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Both. However, I am very, very merrily pissed at the moment.
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Fulham play in London, where going to a game can be listed among the Tower of London, the British Museum and St Paul's Cathedral on a tourist itinerary. It has no relevance to Villa Park where 99% of the attendees will be far from "neutral".
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Nope
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We shouldn't be bending over backwards to find ways to give those c***s extra tickets.
Won't somebody think of the Manchester United children!?
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We shouldn't be bending over backwards to find ways to give those c***s extra tickets.
Won't somebody think of the Manchester United children!?
I will.
As I throw their dad off a bridge.
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Aaaaah Bless us, let's become the Midlands Fulham.
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Not a neutral section, no. A family stand though, where both sections of fans can go. To qualify you should either be under 12 (or with an under 12) or over 65.
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Have we suddenly become Fulham?
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We already have one masquerading as the Holte End!
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No. It would be empty.
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It's a no from me. And a massive one at that.
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Not a neutral section, no. A family stand though, where both sections of fans can go. To qualify you should either be under 12 (or with an under 12) or over 65.
Which stand are you choosing for this and would long-term season ticket holders who don't meet the criteria be thrown out?
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No. A big no too. It's a recipe for disaster for 90% of our games.
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The whole idea just screams Mickey Mouse. If the club adopted this idea it would show that they'd given up on the possibility of Villa ever being good enough to attract 40,000 Villa fans to a game again.
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Not a neutral section, no. A family stand though, where both sections of fans can go. To qualify you should either be under 12 (or with an under 12) or over 65.
Which stand are you choosing for this and would long-term season ticket holders who don't meet the criteria be thrown out?
I don't think the demand would warrant a whole stand. How about four sections of the Witton or the Trinity? And any current season ticket holders are moved to a parallel section (so at most a few dozen seats in one direction or another) with a discount for the first year to compensate for their trouble. And if it doesn't work then after a couple of seasons it's quietly shelved. And they can move back if they really want to.
I'm yet to hear an actual reason why this wouldn't be a positive thing to try beyond some sort of emasculated "but we're too important to do something like this".
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The whole idea just screams Mickey Mouse. If the club adopted this idea it would show that they'd given up on the possibility of Villa ever being good enough to attract 40,000 Villa fans to a game again.
I agree.
it is a horrible idea.
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How can it be a positive thing to encourage Brummie Reds? The only games that would attract any interest in the neutral end would be the games that are close to sell-out anyway.
I fail to see how allowing an extra two hundred Man U, sorry "neutral", fans in is going to help the club long-term.
We need to be focussing on ways of attracting more Villa fans to games, including those who've lapsed over the last few years, rather than worrying about encouraging day-tripping scum who want to cheer for a team whose home city they've never visited.
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I don't mean a whole stand, just a section. Probably where it is, close to the tunnel.
All teams should be forced to do it. I've no doubt there are plenty of folk who have thought twice about taking villa youngsters away. Our crew all stand so the existing arrangements don't work.
I'm struggling to understand why people think it small time to encourage young people to football matches, regardless of who they choose to support. If a load of brummie reds turn up, then we should be trying to charm them all with villa merchandise.
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So if we get a gate of 40,000... including, say, a few hundred Manure scum in the neutral end... we let all the Villa fans leave empty-handed but give every Brummie Red that jumps up when "their" team scores a bunch of free Villa kit that they probably don't want... that's going to encourage more Villa fans to attend?
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So if we get a gate of 40,000... including, say, a few hundred Manure scum in the neutral end... we let all the Villa fans leave empty-handed but give every Brummie Red that jumps up when "their" team scores a bunch of free Villa kit that they probably don't want... that's going to encourage more Villa fans to attend?
There's probably more chance of that making them become Villa fans than the "football" on offer, mind.
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So if we get a gate of 40,000... including, say, a few hundred Manure scum in the neutral end... we let all the Villa fans leave empty-handed but give every Brummie Red that jumps up when "their" team scores a bunch of free Villa kit that they probably don't want... that's going to encourage more Villa fans to attend?
cd, old chap. You're a decent, egalitarian believer in freedom, democracy and the rights of man. Do you honestly, truly, think that the word 'scum' is appropriate for someone who just happens to support a different football team to you?
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Not if the team is, say, Swansea or Bolton.
If it's those bunch of wankers, "scum" is mild.
In any case attempting to bring "real World" logic into football is no fun. There's a load of us Socialists on here who follow a game which is, basically, more rampantly-capitalist than Keith Joseph, reading "The Wealth of Nations" while setting fire to an NHS hospital.
I try not to mix football and things like politics and common decency as it makes my head spin.
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Not if the team is, say, Swansea or Bolton.
If it's those bunch of wankers, "scum" is mild.
In any case attempting to bring "real World" logic into football is no fun. There's a load of us Socialists on here who follow a game which is, basically, more rampantly-capitalist than Keith Joseph, reading "The Wealth of Nations" while setting fire to an NHS hospital.
I try not to mix football and things like politics and common decency as it makes my head spin.
One of the best football supporters I've ever known was a Manchester United supporter from Birmingham. She was involved in the FSA when we were still being locked up, kept behind fences and frogmarched. She helped football move from what it was then to the infinitely better conditions we all enjoy now.
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I'm probably small-minded, but I'd still struggle to get past the "Man United fan from Birmingham" bit, to be honest.
I'm sure there are nice UKIP voters and, maybe, even reasonable people who own a U2 album.
I've no wish to associate with them or see Villa give them an extra stand though.
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I'm probably small-minded, but I'd still struggle to get past the "Man United fan from Birmingham" bit, to be honest.
I'm sure there are nice UKIP voters and, maybe, even reasonable people who own a U2 album.
I've no wish to associate with them or see Villa give them an extra stand though.
Nobody's saying they should get an extra stand.
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I'm probably small-minded, but I'd still struggle to get past the "Man United fan from Birmingham" bit, to be honest.
I struggled with the "she" bit. Did she work in the kitchens or something?
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I'm probably small-minded, but I'd still struggle to get past the "Man United fan from Birmingham" bit, to be honest.
I'm sure there are nice UKIP voters and, maybe, even reasonable people who own a U2 album.
I've no wish to associate with them or see Villa give them an extra stand though.
Nobody's saying they should get an extra stand.
Section, then.
What... you expect me to actually read the thread title?
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I'm probably small-minded, but I'd still struggle to get past the "Man United fan from Birmingham" bit, to be honest.
I'm sure there are nice UKIP voters and, maybe, even reasonable people who own a U2 album.
I've no wish to associate with them or see Villa give them an extra stand though.
Nobody's saying they should get an extra stand.
Section, then.
What... you expect me to actually read the thread title?
Nor even a section.
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How about if the tickets are only sold to the away teams family members? I would guess most teams have one?
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The problem with the "should away fans be in our end" and this thread is that it goes against why I attend Villa Park. I go to be unreasonable for 90 minutes a fortnight. The rest of the time I am almost completely law-abiding, helpful, charitable and generous - but I need to excercise my visceral Shadow as Jung put it. At VP I am intolerant of the opposition, blinkered in my views and totally subjective in my arguments while allowing my base instincts full rein!
I really enjoyed the Leicester fans hating us the other week - loved it! Somebody gave a damn about us.
We have a neutral area in the Upper Trinity if my last visit up there was anything to go by.
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A big no to a neutral section from me.
Why can't Man United fans that have been fed after midnight/got wet, go in the away end with their brood?
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I don't think you can watch a match without to at least some degree wanting one or other side to win.
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How can it be a positive thing to encourage Brummie Reds? The only games that would attract any interest in the neutral end would be the games that are close to sell-out anyway.
I fail to see how allowing an extra two hundred Man U, sorry "neutral", fans in is going to help the club long-term.
You seem to think that the only people who would ever want to be in a neutral end would be away fans and tourists.
I've got a two month old daughter and she's going to be brought up at the very least to have Villa leanings. So if she wants to come with Daddy to a match then we're in the Holte as usual. Let's say that at school she makes a friend whose Dad has brought her up as an Everton fan, they want to go and watch Villa vs Everton and her dad comes along as well. If we all go in the Holte then they're breaking the T&Cs of their ticket and risk being thrown out. Or at the very least feel a bit out of place surrounded by Villa fans. So we all have a nice day out in the neutral section.
Or, let's say my parenting goes horribly awry and she decides she's going to forget all about her one-generation Villa roots and is going to be a huge Man City fan, just because the 2020 version of David Beckham plays for them. So the one game per season she now gets to go to is Villa - Man City. Again, we'll probably both be in the neutral section so that I can watch the Villa and she can see the new David Beckham, while not surrounded by 13,000 people calling him a c***.
Another example - what if, while we're regularly getting 10,000 empty seats per match we were to send blocks of a hundred tickets a time to schools in the region and try and entice some kids in who would never otherwise go to a football match? If they turn up on the day and decide to support Swansea because they look like they're a better team or because Jonjo Shelvey looks like somebody out of Harry Potter then so be it. It's not like the club has lost out on anything. And if they're lucky enough to get a game like Sunderland from the other season you might just have made 50 new Villa fans.
Final example, what about people who just fancy going to a football match with their family? When I was growing I was taken to Highfield Road far more than Villa Park, because it was closer and cheaper. And although I was really getting into the sport, my Dad and the rest of my family have never had any interest in it. Had it been an option then I'm pretty sure we'd have gone for a neutral seating option, because that's exactly what we were - neutrals.
There's four examples of why you might end up with people other than a few hundred extra ManYoo fans straight off the top of my head. I don't think any of them are particularly outlandish and I bet there are plenty more.
If there were a few hundred seats in an area catering for the above, I still don't see how it makes an impact on you and your day out at the match. Nobody is going to force you to sit there.
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The trick is not to bring your daughters friend's Everton supporting dad, ply the child with sweets and you've just added a convert to the cause.
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Not for me. It worked at Fulham because there's huge market of tourists and day-trippers in London who will pay just to watch an 'EPL' game and, unlike the other Premiership Clubs, Fulham had enough unfulfilled capacity to create the neutral area. I just can't see it resulting in anything other than an overflow away-end at Villa, and therefore causing problems.
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Not for me either. To be honest, it is only really an issue against a couple of teams each season (and the Blues on the rare occasions we play them), so I don't see the need for it.
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...so I don't see the need for it.
You don't think that any of the examples that I gave are possible?
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...so I don't see the need for it.
You don't think that any of the examples that I gave are possible?
Oh of course they are possible Dave and I quite like the idea of having certain sections of the ground for local schools, no matter who the children support. I just don't think we would need to have a designated area like that as it isn't really an issue against the majority of teams we play.
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...so I don't see the need for it.
You don't think that any of the examples that I gave are possible?
Dave, I think you've put forward a decent case, but I still think the cons outweigh the pros. For one, I think for every potentially convertible school kid who'll make the most of it, you'll get a genuine away fan who just wasn't able to get a ticket in the away-end. It would just lead to many more of the incidents described in this thread, and probably a great deal more disgruntlement of actual Villa fans.
Also, where would we feasibly house this 'neutral'section?
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Dave, I think what you're after isn't so much a neutral stand, but more a dedicated, properly organized, not open to abuse, kids and families stand. I'd suggest utilizing some of the wide-open spaces in the UT, but you'd have some natives disgruntled with any disparity in ticket prices (unless you were born there, there's no concession).
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Absolutely no chance.
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The problem with the "should away fans be in our end" and this thread is that it goes against why I attend Villa Park.
But this wouldn't be "away fans in our end" it would be a small section of seats allocated to families of both clubs who would know that they would be sitting with opposition fans who might cheer when they score but don't mind.
You could still vent and swear to your heart's content wherever you are sat because the only way this little section could possibly annoy you is if you deliberately buy tickets in it.
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...so I don't see the need for it.
You don't think that any of the examples that I gave are possible?
Dave, I think you've put forward a decent case, but I still think the cons outweigh the pros. For one, I think for every potentially convertible school kid who'll make the most of it, you'll get a genuine away fan who just wasn't able to get a ticket in the away-end. It would just lead to many more of the incidents described in this thread, and probably a great deal more disgruntlement of actual Villa fans.
Also, where would we feasibly house this 'neutral'section?
How about four sections of the Witton or the Trinity? And any current season ticket holders are moved to a parallel section (so at most a few dozen seats in one direction or another) with a discount for the first year to compensate for their trouble. And if it doesn't work then after a couple of seasons it's quietly shelved. And they can move back if they really want to.
And how about you add the proviso in that if you're buying tickets in that section you need to be purchasing at least one junior ticket or one OAP ticket. Problem solved.
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The problem with the "should away fans be in our end" and this thread is that it goes against why I attend Villa Park.
But this wouldn't be "away fans in our end" it would be a small section of seats allocated to families of both clubs who would know that they would be sitting with opposition fans who might cheer when they score but don't mind.
You could still vent and swear to your heart's content wherever you are sat because the only way this little section could possibly annoy you is if you deliberately buy tickets in it.
It's an idea, but the very thought that we're only having this debate because a "Man Yoo" gloryhunting bell end (from our own city as well) has played the victim card when he's clearly been in the wrong does stick in the throat a little.
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...so I don't see the need for it.
You don't think that any of the examples that I gave are possible?
Dave, I think you've put forward a decent case, but I still think the cons outweigh the pros. For one, I think for every potentially convertible school kid who'll make the most of it, you'll get a genuine away fan who just wasn't able to get a ticket in the away-end. It would just lead to many more of the incidents described in this thread, and probably a great deal more disgruntlement of actual Villa fans.
Also, where would we feasibly house this 'neutral'section?
How about four sections of the Witton or the Trinity? And any current season ticket holders are moved to a parallel section (so at most a few dozen seats in one direction or another) with a discount for the first year to compensate for their trouble. And if it doesn't work then after a couple of seasons it's quietly shelved. And they can move back if they really want to.
And how about you add the proviso in that if you're buying tickets in that section you need to be purchasing at least one junior ticket or one OAP ticket. Problem solved.
I think that's the deal with the family section at the moment.
It seems to me that some of the most vociferous detractors perhaps don't have children, or have never sat in the family section of the ground, and perhaps don't even know where it is
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Ha! A neutral section at Villa Park!?!?!?!? Who on earth would think "Hmm...I'm in need of some entertainment, I wonder what I could do...I know I'll go and enjoy a game at football at Villa Park!"
It's a struggle for Villa fans to go down Villa Park, let alone neutrals!
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As PWS said, when you stand outside selling fanzines for two hours you find yourself amazed at just how many tourists and day-tripper types turn up, and not just for the really big games either.
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As PWS said, when you stand outside selling fanzines for two hours you find yourself amazed at just how many tourists and day-tripper types turn up, and not just for the really big games either.
Ah, the good old days...
This is it. We hardly ever sell out, there were plenty of unsold tickets on Saturday, why not provide an area for families to go?
I'm a Villa fan obviously, but my local ground is Bramall Lane; when my little girl is old enough, I'll take her along and sit somewhere where she can enjoy the game, away from the angry mob mentality that shows itself at most grounds (that I like to be a part of myself).
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Dave, I think what you're after isn't so much a neutral stand, but more a dedicated, properly organized, not open to abuse, kids and families stand. I'd suggest utilizing some of the wide-open spaces in the UT, but you'd have some natives disgruntled with any disparity in ticket prices (unless you were born there, there's no concession).
My throw-away comment about the UT being that "zone" was only half a joke.
A1 is already used for school-age kids and other groups from what I can see - the clientele of A2 are decent people who only occasionally tut at a yob like me (I would tut at me as well)
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The problem with the "should away fans be in our end" and this thread is that it goes against why I attend Villa Park.
But this wouldn't be "away fans in our end" it would be a small section of seats allocated to families of both clubs who would know that they would be sitting with opposition fans who might cheer when they score but don't mind.
You could still vent and swear to your heart's content wherever you are sat because the only way this little section could possibly annoy you is if you deliberately buy tickets in it.
It was more the "being reasonable with the opposition" feeling - your point is taken about my choice not to go near it though
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From the top down we already act as the smallest big club in the top flight, so why not.
Opposition fans love coming to Villa Park. Good day out, good chance of picking up three easy points, so it seems only right to let them sit where they want.
Four more years of Lambert will probably ensure that we can make all four stands neutral just to get a semi respectable gate. Perhaps that's the plan.
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There is also a difference between being neutral and hopping up and down when the away team scores as the thick Brummie red did.
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As PWS said, when you stand outside selling fanzines for two hours you find yourself amazed at just how many tourists and day-tripper types turn up, and not just for the really big games either.
Ah, the good old days...
This is it. We hardly ever sell out, there were plenty of unsold tickets on Saturday, why not provide an area for families to go?
I'm a Villa fan obviously, but my local ground is Bramall Lane; when my little girl is old enough, I'll take her along and sit somewhere where she can enjoy the game, away from the angry mob mentality that shows itself at most grounds (that I like to be a part of myself).
Do Sheffield United have a neutral section?
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From the top down we already act as the smallest big club in the top flight, so why not.
Opposition fans love coming to Villa Park. Good day out, good chance of picking up three easy points, so it seems only right to let them sit where they want.
Four more years of Lambert will probably ensure that we can make all four stands neutral just to get a semi respectable gate. Perhaps that's the plan.
Well done. Another thread hijacked by someone desperate to have a pop at the club.
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As PWS said, when you stand outside selling fanzines for two hours you find yourself amazed at just how many tourists and day-tripper types turn up, and not just for the really big games either.
Ah, the good old days...
This is it. We hardly ever sell out, there were plenty of unsold tickets on Saturday, why not provide an area for families to go?
I'm a Villa fan obviously, but my local ground is Bramall Lane; when my little girl is old enough, I'll take her along and sit somewhere where she can enjoy the game, away from the angry mob mentality that shows itself at most grounds (that I like to be a part of myself).
Do Sheffield United have a neutral section?
Nah. it's juts mostly empty.
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I'm a bit torn on this whole issue. As I said in another thread, I thought the neutral bit at Fulham was "naff" (possibly not the most objective way to describe it), and as I lived in Putney for a few years, I went in there a handful of times. My experience there (once watching Villa and other times as a genuine neutral with mates who wanted to see Everton and Palace) was that you couldn't display colours, stand/sing along when the away fans did and generally got asked to keep quiet. I think others have had different experiences to me, so it was perhaps an ever-evolving thing, but at times, it was more akin to watching tennis. Mind you, Craven Cottage as a whole is quite quiet.
However, that wasn't a problem with the neutral section, but more to do with my viewpoint as a mid-twenties fan out with some mates - particularly watching Villa, where my approach to the game obviously wasn't tailored to neutrality. If I was to take my two-year-old boy to a game now and wanted a safe, calm introduction to the game for him, then a section free of vitriol and tribalism would certainly appeal.
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No thanks
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How can it be a positive thing to encourage Brummie Reds? The only games that would attract any interest in the neutral end would be the games that are close to sell-out anyway.
I fail to see how allowing an extra two hundred Man U, sorry "neutral", fans in is going to help the club long-term.
You seem to think that the only people who would ever want to be in a neutral end would be away fans and tourists.
I've got a two month old daughter and she's going to be brought up at the very least to have Villa leanings. So if she wants to come with Daddy to a match then we're in the Holte as usual. Let's say that at school she makes a friend whose Dad has brought her up as an Everton fan, they want to go and watch Villa vs Everton and her dad comes along as well. If we all go in the Holte then they're breaking the T&Cs of their ticket and risk being thrown out. Or at the very least feel a bit out of place surrounded by Villa fans. So we all have a nice day out in the neutral section.
Or, let's say my parenting goes horribly awry and she decides she's going to forget all about her one-generation Villa roots and is going to be a huge Man City fan, just because the 2020 version of David Beckham plays for them. So the one game per season she now gets to go to is Villa - Man City. Again, we'll probably both be in the neutral section so that I can watch the Villa and she can see the new David Beckham, while not surrounded by 13,000 people calling him a c***.
Another example - what if, while we're regularly getting 10,000 empty seats per match we were to send blocks of a hundred tickets a time to schools in the region and try and entice some kids in who would never otherwise go to a football match? If they turn up on the day and decide to support Swansea because they look like they're a better team or because Jonjo Shelvey looks like somebody out of Harry Potter then so be it. It's not like the club has lost out on anything. And if they're lucky enough to get a game like Sunderland from the other season you might just have made 50 new Villa fans.
Final example, what about people who just fancy going to a football match with their family? When I was growing I was taken to Highfield Road far more than Villa Park, because it was closer and cheaper. And although I was really getting into the sport, my Dad and the rest of my family have never had any interest in it. Had it been an option then I'm pretty sure we'd have gone for a neutral seating option, because that's exactly what we were - neutrals.
There's four examples of why you might end up with people other than a few hundred extra ManYoo fans straight off the top of my head. I don't think any of them are particularly outlandish and I bet there are plenty more.
If there were a few hundred seats in an area catering for the above, I still don't see how it makes an impact on you and your day out at the match. Nobody is going to force you to sit there.
An excellent set of points very well made.
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Would away fans be ejected from a neutral section?
I can envisage people with no allegiance to either team attending games, some people just like to watch live sports.
But to my mind an away fan is far more likely to buy a ticket to a neutral section than a day tripper, precisely
because of their vested interest in the outcome.
So I don't think a fear of it being swamped with away fans is entirely unfounded.
My personal opinion is if somebody doesn't cause any trouble, then they should be allowed to sit where they please.
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Neutral end at the Villa? No bloody chance. Small time or what.
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Section, not end.
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Section, not end.
Same thing. Anyway it'll be just an extension of the away end when the likes of Man Utd turn up and is bound to end ugly.
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Neutral and family sections are two different things. The former wouldn't work for us but the latter is a good idea. Unfortunately, something seems to have happened in recent years whereby the sight of an opposition supporter makes people terrified.
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I'm not a big fan of the idea, but the more I think about it, the harder it becomes to think of reasons why we shouldn't have one.
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It never works anywhere. Years ago we got home tickets in the Blackburn family enclosure, & even the kids were feral.
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Terrible idea, no thanks.
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No, never, ever.
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If you're a genuine neutral then you shouldn't have a problem anywhere you sit as long as you're respectful to both teams and those around you.
This discussion has come about because a glory hunter bought tickets in the wrong end and thought he could ignore the rules of entry. We shouldn't be changing things for idiots like him.