Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Off Topic => Sports Arena => Topic started by: UK Redsox on July 15, 2014, 11:04:38 AM
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The last of England's 2003 World Cup winners announces his retirement.
http://www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/Mike-Tindall-announces-retirement-professional/story-21461734-detail/story.html
Let's hope that he's able to find alternative employment soon and doesn't have to move in with his wife's family.
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I'm surprised they didn't keep him on the coaching team but I guess the new director wanted a bit of a clean sweep.
I can't see him staying out of coaching for long.
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Thanks for everything Tinds, a truly great player who was able to cross the divide.
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Great? Cross the divide? Eh?
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Great? Cross the divide? Eh?
Great - debateable but he was part of the best backline England have ever had so probably fair.
Cross the Divide - Played for Bath and Gloucester and is well thought of by the fans of each.
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Tindall is far from great.
As for the great divide, fair enough.
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always thought Greenwood was the better player of the two.......that Zara's noice though ;)
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always thought Greenwood was the better player of the two.......that Zara's noice though ;)
Yep, apparently Mike married some horse-rider.
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Different player to Greenwood but I still only thought of him as the rugby version of a hod carrier. Ran threw brick walls but nowhere near good enough to warrant 'great'.
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Different player to Greenwood but I still only thought of him as the rugby version of a hod carrier. Ran threw brick walls but nowhere near good enough to warrant 'great'.
He was the one that allowed Greenwood to be the genius. I'm not Tindall's greatest fan and I think he belonged to style of rugby which is outdated but he was very good at what he did, good crash runner, strong tackler and most importantly exceptional in the tight, often working as a 4th back row. He was let down by his lack of flair and his slightly suspect passing but, as said, he was a important part of the best backline we've ever had (although it will be bettered soon). Like the rest of the 2003 squad he deserves to be considered a great of English rugby.
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Great, by the fact he's won the world cup. I agree not the flashest back but he never let the side down, performed his role reliably. In fact I can't recollect him missing a tackle. The flair players need the "hod carriers" to enable them to perform.
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I wonder how many of todays nearly team would get into the 2003 team? Not many admittedly but I think Tindall would be one of the players easily replaced.
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tough call, you're largely comparing guys early in their career to guys who retired soon after the world cup. There's not much in it for a lot of the positions though, for example Wood is coming very close the level Hill was at. The 'weak' links in there were Tindall and Thompson really but both were strong enough in the basics that the lack of brilliance wasn't a problem.
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Very happy with the european draw for Saints, group 5 with Racing Metro, Ospreys and Treviso, that's about as easy a group as you could wish for.
Glaws in the Amlin replacement have drawn Brive, Zebre and Oyonnax which is also a very kind draw.
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Not going to create a new topic about it but I think it's worth sharing a congratulations to the ladies winning the world cup, after 3 runners up medals in a row. Very impressive performances in the semi and the final, and a fair few of them are only mid-twenties so we'll have largely that team for the next world cup as well. Lets hope the men can make it a pair next year.
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Agreed, very impressive stuff.
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Twelvetrees is skipper for Gloucester this season.
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Villa get a mention here. http://thebirminghampress.com/2014/08/try-outs-touch-down/
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For "Non-League Day" on Sat 6th Sep, I'll be at the season opener of The Mighty Lyd against Shelford.
Going on what I've been reading about Lydney's pre-season performances, being promoted back up to National League 2 South will lead to a very difficult season.
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Very excited for tonight, opening game of the season and it's saints (my team) vs Glaws (the family team, I'm the black sheep) which is always my favourite game of the season. It's 2 sides with exciting backlines, in perfect conditions playing on an immaculate surface. I'm clearly setting myself up for huge disappointment but I have every hope that this will be an absolute belter.
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Ban coming for Savage there I reckon, shocking, cowardly hit and terrible from the ref to let it go.
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that 3rd try is special, North will get the plaudits for the finish (which will be deserved) but the build up was perfection as well, they change the direction of the attack so well, it's almost impossible to stop them when they get it right.
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Huge win for Northampton in the end, 53-6 and 8 tries. For the glaws fans it's wasn't so much a bad performance from your lot, more a masterclass from a genuinely brilliant team.
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It's a long season. Let's not draw too many conclusions yet Glos have an entirely new coaching staff and 14 new players. I expect/hope for a win vs Sale next week.
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Absolutely, I think glaws will be better than that most weeks, saints just had too much about them on the night, on the flipside if saints come close to that standard every week I'd be amazed.
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Huge win for Northampton in the end, 53-6 and 8 tries. For the glaws fans it's wasn't so much a bad performance from your lot, more a masterclass from a genuinely brilliant team.
The Mighty Lyd won, so all is right in the western part of the county
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France considering picking Steffon Armitage, that would be a big mistake and miss from us.
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Harlequins 0-39 Saracens
I'd like to feel happy about this but I am sceptical how Saracens squad is under the wage cap.
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France considering picking Steffon Armitage, that would be a big mistake and miss from us.
He has England caps so surely that wouldn't be allowed.
Harlequins 0-39 Saracens
I'd like to feel happy about this but I am sceptical how Saracens squad is under the wage cap.
Quins are a pretty poor side this year from what I've seen so far, Saints and Sarries look a long way ahead of the rest. Only saw a bit of the game today but Skinner made Robshaw look very average from what I saw.
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France seems to think there's a chance of it.
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Right, it's because of the 7s being in the olympics, basically if france select him for a 7s event that is covered by the IOC he'dd then become eligible to play for France in the 15-a-side format.
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Cipriani looked right on it in the highlights tonight, very impressive. Johnny May looking bang on form too. And James Haskell. So much competition now for England places, I don't think the standard has ever been higher
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Freddie Burns was (sorry glaws fans) the best I've ever seen him in the chiefs vs tigers game, his kicking from hand is spectacular and he's now under a lot less pressure behind a pack that is doing the basics right. It's very early on but I can see him forcing himself into first place in that battle, particularly with Farrell struggling to make the starting line-up at sarries.
Saints were poor yesterday, the pick and drive around the fringes just didn't happen and their whole game is built around the space that it creates so they just made very little. However I think the crowd got to the ref, he gave 3-4 decisions to wasps that were completely wrong, 2 of them in their own 22 just as saints were building a bit of pressure.
On top of that the yellow cards were pathetic, Corbs should never have gone and Johnson going when he did meant the ref was unwilling to do anything in the 2nd half when he gave 3-4 pretty cynical penalties away in a fairly short spell, so the yellow he deserved instead of coming at a time when it gave saints the advantage came when they had a bigger loss to deal with and meant Johnson was pretty comfortable killing the breakdown in the 2nd half.
If wasps play like that regularly I can see an experienced ref really losing his patience with them.
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I think we can all agree that London Welsh look almost as doomed as the Tesco Bags! 100 points + conceded in just two matches, dear me. And there is almost no let up if you are not much cop in the Premiership, the big teams just keep coming at you week after week
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I agree they do look doomed, they're so weak in defense, they've missed a lot of one up tackles in the middle of the pitch in both matches so far and you really can't allow that if you want to play at this level.
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I get the impression that Gloucester are in massive transition after the player turnaround in the summer. They might come strong at the end.
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I agree they do look doomed, they're so weak in defense, they've missed a lot of one up tackles in the middle of the pitch in both matches so far and you really can't allow that if you want to play at this level.
Dodgy strip too Paul, though I do wish almost all of the Premiership teams would just tone it down a little. There's far too much going on with most of the kits with even wording on backsides in the case of the Chiefs
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Right, it's because of the 7s being in the olympics, basically if france select him for a 7s event that is covered by the IOC he'dd then become eligible to play for France in the 15-a-side format.
The IRB have clarified the requirements and the only chance of this happening is if Toulon bomb in europe, which doesn't seem likely.
I do feel for the guy though, he really should have a lot more than 5 caps.
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Saw and smiled at a couple of Bath fans when I stopped at the petrol station for a paper on my run yesterday near where I live. Wondered where they were heading off to and thought it might be somewhere nearer than Leicester. That's dedication for you. Mind you, they would have thought the trip round the M25 and up the M1 entirely worth it yesterday, what a win and to nil as well
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Bath fans tend to come out of the work work when they're doing well. How a team can pay players so much but continue to operate in a substandard shack of a ground that they don't even own is a mystery.
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Saw and smiled at a couple of Bath fans when I stopped at the petrol station for a paper on my run yesterday near where I live. Wondered where they were heading off to and thought it might be somewhere nearer than Leicester. That's dedication for you. Mind you, they would have thought the trip round the M25 and up the M1 entirely worth it yesterday, what a win and to nil as well
My bad as they say these days, the game was of course at Bath!
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Didn't see much rugby this weekend, was out on saturday and sunday and only caught half of friday's game, I've seen extended highlights of the saints game and glaws game and I'll watch the rest later.
From what I've seen:
Burrell was superb for saints and Hooley looked very good as a deputy 10.
Glaws vs Exeter was decided, by and large, by a very harsh yellow for Kvesic and a lack of an equally harsh yellow for Nowell. I don't think either deserved a yellow but if you give one you really have to give the other.
As a general observation I think the league looks vrery strong this year, newcastle are a little behind and Welsh are poor but the other 10 sides all look capable of putting a run together and pushing for the playoffs.
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Not a very good weekend for the Gloucestershire teams in the National Leagues.
Following Gloucester's defeat on Friday, there were also losses for Zindyferrrd, Hartpury (honest were not a college team really) College and the not-so-mighty Lyd.
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I watched the ITV4 highlights program last night, that Saracens win was a huge effort, Bath were unplayable and the Chiefs just get better & better (my adopted team since the outlaws moved to Lympstone).
London Welsh could end up doing a Bedford this season.
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Lancaster has been given a new deal through to 2020, I think that's deserved he's really bringing England back to being one of the top sides in world rugby. He still needs to address a few issues, but the side has continually developed year on year.
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I'm not agianst this but I'm really interested in how he approaches the autumn internationals, he has 2 genuinely massive calls to make:
At 7 his captain has started the season badly and we don't really have any experienced cover for him, now is a perfect time to call in Kvesic and Fraser (I'm not going to suggest Armitage because I think that a 'cut your nose off to spite your face' standoff now he's signed a new deal) and let them have a few games to fight for the squad place. I don't think he'll do that though, I think we'll see Robshaw play every minute he's available for until the world cup.
At 10 his first choice hasn't played at 10 yet this season and will miss the next few games with an injury so almost certainly won't have played a game in the position this season by the time the internationals start. Given that Burns, Cipriani, Myler and Ford have all started the season in top form it's pretty difficult to justify Farrell starting any of these games, I really wouldn't want to call this one though, there's 5 players there who all deserve to go to the world cup but only 3 spots for them.
I'm intrigued as to what he plans at 9 and on the wing are as well. As well as care, dickson and youngs who seem pretty well established Simpson has started the season well and Robson has looked dynamite off the bench for Gloucester so there's huge depth there. On the wing it's even worse, Ashton, May, Yarde, Wade, Nowell and Watson look to be the main players for those positions which is already a big selection and there's a lot of others not far behind as well.
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Not sure Ashton should be anywhere near it, a case of once being on the inside you are more difficult to dislodge.
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In fairness Ashton's club form really picked up again last year, he certainly deserves to be in the conversation at least. It's exciting really there are so many options available, but we really need to be nailing down our team for the World Cup soon.
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oh ffs, Corbisiero ruled out until the new year with a shoulder injury.
Ashton - on form he's too good to ignore. The move to sarries and change in playstyle really screwed him up for a while but he kicked on around Christmas and has looked top quality since.
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The front row and injuries is becoming a real problem.
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luckily on Corbs side (Loosehead) we have Marler, Mako and Waller who all look international class. It's the backup for Cole that worries me, Wilson is ok but nothing more and Thomas has potential that he's yet to really fulfil then you're on to peoplewho either aren't good enough, aren't experienced enough or are just unknowns. Brookes looked like the next big thing but moving to Tigers too early set him back badly (he was 3rd or 4th choice behind cole, castro and mulipola most of the time) if he can get back to his best he should be an option. Collier looks good but has injury problems, Doran-Jones isn't good enough. That leaves a couple of youngsters in Scott Wilson and Balmain who have a lot of potential but it's a big risk to rely on any of them.
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Gloucester v Leicester tomorrow with the return of Burns to spice things up. Should be an interesting game. Neither side has been at their best so far.
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"London Wasps of Coventry near Birmingham"
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Good game coming tonight first, Bath vs Sarries, both have a fair few injuries.
I looking forward to both of them, the good thing about the rugby at the minute is there are 10 sides that can compete (newcastle and welsh are weak), the top 4 will contain sarries and saints and you suspect Irish will be nearer the bottom but the spots in between are too close to call, which makes for a lot of exciting games. What's surprising is the number of games between teams where you'd expect them to be close and they've turned into hammerings. It shows that we're learning to punish mistakes as ruthlessly as the all blacks have for the last few years, if we can carry that mentality into the national side and keep developing the world cup will be very interesting.
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I genuinely believe that the pack will dictate the game without dictating the scoreline tomorrow.
If Gloucester win the set piece they will marmalise Leicester. They get on top up front and we won't get close to winning the game.
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I genuinely believe that the pack will dictate the game without dictating the scoreline tomorrow.
If Gloucester win the set piece they will marmalise Leicester. They get on top up front and we won't get close to winning the game.
The set-piece and breakdown are the key, same as always, the thing is the packs are all so strong now that it's tough to call between them. I actually think Kvesic vs Salvi is the key tomorrow. Salvi has been a bit hit and miss this year and Kvesic obviously didn't start the first few games so neither of them is in top form but if one of them can keep the 9 quiet and boss the breakdown they win. The choice at 9 for glaws will be interesting as well, Laidlaw starting means they're playing for territory and going to try to win with the boot, Robson starting is a signal they want to be a bit more expansive.
Harsh yellow for Ashton in tonights game, done for a deliberate knock-on, and I think making sure the ball didn't get through was his priority, but the ball was there for him to try to intercept and I'm not entirely convinced he didn't drop it because his eyes lit up at the prospect of the breakaway try. Good game so far though.
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Good game coming tonight first, Bath vs Sarries, both have a fair few injuries.
I looking forward to both of them, the good thing about the rugby at the minute is there are 10 sides that can compete (newcastle and welsh are weak), the top 4 will contain sarries and saints and you suspect Irish will be nearer the bottom but the spots in between are too close to call, which makes for a lot of exciting games. What's surprising is the number of games between teams where you'd expect them to be close and they've turned into hammerings. It shows that we're learning to punish mistakes as ruthlessly as the all blacks have for the last few years, if we can carry that mentality into the national side and keep developing the world cup will be very interesting.
Does it also mean that all the players will be fucked by the time that the WC comes round too?
Answering my own question, I'd hope not. The timing of the world cup might actually help us as we'll have lots of players involved in real matches this season and then a few months getting warmed up next year before the WC starts. Have I got my calendar right?
Great try by Bath. 18-6 at the moment.
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Good game coming tonight first, Bath vs Sarries, both have a fair few injuries.
I looking forward to both of them, the good thing about the rugby at the minute is there are 10 sides that can compete (newcastle and welsh are weak), the top 4 will contain sarries and saints and you suspect Irish will be nearer the bottom but the spots in between are too close to call, which makes for a lot of exciting games. What's surprising is the number of games between teams where you'd expect them to be close and they've turned into hammerings. It shows that we're learning to punish mistakes as ruthlessly as the all blacks have for the last few years, if we can carry that mentality into the national side and keep developing the world cup will be very interesting.
Does it also mean that all the players will be fucked by the time that the WC comes round too?
Answering my own question, I'd hope not. The timing of the world cup might actually help us as we'll have lots of players involved in real matches this season and then a few months getting warmed up next year before the WC starts. Have I got my calendar right?
Great try by Bath. 18-6 at the moment.
Wonder try, the line Joseph runs is sublime and Eastmond ran the perfect support line as well.
Calendar - yes, the premiership starts after the world cup so they'll finish the season in Late May and then have a summer to build to the world cup. On top of that most of the sides have such deep squads that not many of the key players for England will have played every game they're available for.
Brilliant strength and awareness from Billy V for the Sarries try.
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I listened to most of the Glos v Leices game on the drive up yesterday.
Good to see one of the county's lesser teams getting their act together at last this season.
It was also good to hear the commentators saying that May was backing his pace by looking to go outside people rather than keep cutting back inside where his lack of bulk leads to him getting splatted too often.
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Gloucester were pretty good but the result was largely down mto a dire performance from Leicester, I counted 6 konck-ons in the Gloucester 22, that's truly pathetic. Add on the fact they looked like a bunch of amateurs at the scrum and glaws got handed a pretty easy 4 points and should actually be a bit upset with themselves for not getting the bonus point.
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The table is starting to form now, saints and sarries are pulling away as expected with bath joining them, as you'd expect with their squad, and then everyone else playing for the last playoff space except newcastle and welsh who are clearly going to be fighting it out for 11th.
This weekend was another one of fantastic games, with masses of quality and a fair amount of forced errors.
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My lad had an under 9s minis tournament today. They drew the first game and win the other 3. The winner of each group goes through. The tie break was pretty unbelievable. We won 9-0, 6-0 and 14-0. They won 6-4, 12-0 and 8-0. So overall we out scored them on tires (29 vs 26) and on try difference (29 vs 22). Guess who went through to the final?
Apparently there was a mercy rule that after a team went 5-0 up their score was capped at 5 so we had 15 recoded tries and they had 16. Unbelievable. We should have let the oppo score to keep them within 5. How do explain this to an 8 year old?
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Not been on here for a while but very excited about the upcoming Autumn Internationals for England. Really enjoying the Premiership and especially Bath's style of play and there is a case for Ford, Eastmond, Joseph, Watson and Rokoduguni just been planted en bloc into the England backline for next month. I don't believe for one minute it will happen, but from a personal point of view I really hope Eastmond gets the chance to put right the mistakes that occurred in the 3rd test in NZ.
On current form I see a choice at 12 of Eastmond or Slade and either Burrell, Manu or Joseph at 13. Rokoduguni and Yarde I feel will be wings with Mike Brown at full back. I want Ford to get at least one game against the big 3 to see what he can do, I think he can light up our back play in a way Farrell can only dream of.
The backs are the big issue whereas the forwards rick themselves.
In terms of results, if we want to win the World Cup we need to win all four, simple as.
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Wow, rugby clubs really don't give a fuck about their fans do they?
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Wow, rugby clubs really don't give a fuck about their fans do they?
Wasps? Very similar to MK Dons isn't it? Very sad, Wasps are a London club and nothing to do with the West Midlands. What happens to Coventry RFC a great club down the years. They haven't got much of a fanbase, but enough and it is very sad
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Wasps sold their old ground for residential build and used the profit to fund their great European team so fuck them and their shitty fucking fan base. But most of all fuck Lawrence Dallaglio.
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Wasps sold their old ground for residential build and used the profit to fund their great European team so fuck them and their shitty fucking fan base. But most of all fuck Lawrence Dallaglio.
I blame Tesco's.They must of told them to come on promise of using the car park.
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Wow, rugby clubs really don't give a fuck about their fans do they?
Wasps? Very similar to MK Dons isn't it? Very sad, Wasps are a London club and nothing to do with the West Midlands. What happens to Coventry RFC a great club down the years. They haven't got much of a fanbase, but enough and it is very sad
Similar to MK Dons except that the Wimbledon example seems to have been an exception, and the fuss and hard work put in by the Wimbledon fans means it is unlikely such a move would ever be sanctioned again. The league wouldn't even sanction Hull's name change when I'm sure they wouldn't have cared twenty years ago.
Has there been talk about setting up an "AFC Wasps"-type team, or any other sort of protest? It seems that fans of "London" Wasps/Irish/Welsh/Saracens just accept buggering off miles away and don't bother to do anything about it... or are the protests just not given much publicity?
Oh and will Wasps be called Coventry Wasps? They didn't mention anything about a name change on the telly.
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Coventry is to my mind very much a rugby city....not that long ago all the secondary schools played it (and probably still do) and I reckon they could quite easily get decent crowds over time.
The way the Premiership is now it is almost impossible for Coventry RFC to get promoted and stay there - it is pretty much a closed shop (look at London Welsh struggling again). Leicester and Northampton might well be against it, as a fair few recent internationals went to school in Coventry (such as Geraghty, Wood, Goode, Back, Grewcock and Wood).
From Wasps point of view it makes far more sense locating to Coventry than playing in High Wycombe.
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Why not just move back to London? There are about a million football teams there they could groundshare with.
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Why not just move back to London? There are about a million football teams there they could groundshare with.
The issue is they want to own (at least in part) the ground, unfortunately the cost of land in London and the lack of suitable sites means there's really very little choice but to move out of the city for these clubs in that case, you'd probably find non-league sides with 2-3k capacity with a ground worth what they've paid for their share in the Ricoh. London Welsh went to Oxford for similar reasons (although that move is complicated by the fact the football club needed the deal and really pushed it through).
It's not great to move so far away from their traditional home but rugby clubs really are in a no win situation with things like this.
Dave S - I largely agree on Bath, they've been excellent in the backs but for me Burrell is the first back on the teamsheet right now and Manu wouldn't make my squad if I picked it today, with the others you named all ahead of him. I like Burrell because his offloading game is above and beyond anything else we have available and I really want to see us start to build a side around that, if we can get Joseph/Eastmond/Watson/Ford running the right lines to profit from it we can become deadly.
I also want to see Ford get a start or 2, he's a class act, I'd love Dan Robson to get into the squad as well, he's been electric off the bench for glaws and been a real game changer for them this year.
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Funny how Barnet, Leyton Orient, Brentford, Charlton, Millwall and so on all manage to find themselves a home in London but even the biggest clubs in London rugby can't.
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Wasps would of gone bump without this move.Feel really sorry for Coventry Rugby club.
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But London Welsh don't own the Kassam do they? I thought that was why Oxford United are looking at doing a Rotherham and building their own stadium elsewhere on the edge of the city then they could tell Kassam where to shove his stadium as Rotherham did with the old fella who owned theirs.
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Funny how Barnet, Leyton Orient, Brentford, Charlton, Millwall and so on all manage to find themselves a home in London but even the biggest clubs in London rugby can't.
It's really not that simple though. Of those only the Barnet stadium is 'new' and that is part owned by the London Broncos so they clearly couldn't afford it on their own. On top of that it has a 5000ish capacity, Wasps were looking for somewhere a lot bigger (10k is the league entry minimum, so a ground smaller than that wouldn't have been approved).
Aside from that, as mentioned above, as a club they were about a month away from liquidation last year before the takeover and the new owners have made it clear that they expect the club to break even, with a stadium asset being one of the core elements of that.
Finally, wasps have been rather nomadic for much of their existence anyway, formed in London, moved to Sudbury in Middlesex for years then back to share with QPR before moving to Wycombe and now Coventry, it's not like you could throw a net over all of their previous homes.
My only real complaint about this is, as others have mentioned, Coventry have always been an at least a decent club and this will hurt them.
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But London Welsh don't own the Kassam do they? I thought that was why Oxford United are looking at doing a Rotherham and building their own stadium elsewhere on the edge of the city then they could tell Kassam where to shove his stadium as Rotherham did with the old fella who owned theirs.
Indeed they don't but the rent for both clubs is kept lower by the both basing there, which was apparently very important to oxford (the current chairman was one of the key supporters to the move when it looked like it might get rejected).
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For all it's efforts rugby hasn't really moved out of its heartlands, particularly the West Country and East Midlands. The northern teams are really poorly supported and even In London there is only 1 team are inside the M25. In fact the crowd at Harlequins are family day trippers, happy flappy bridge, no heart or passion.
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For all it's efforts rugby hasn't really moved out of its heartlands, particularly the West Country and East Midlands. The northern teams are really poorly supported and even In London there is only 1 team are inside the M25. In fact the crowd at Harlequins are family day trippers, happy flappy bridge, no heart or passion.
If you go back 30 years or so then Coventry and Moseley were 2 of the biggest clubs going, and historically Coventry has always been a egg chasing city.
I can see why Wasps have done this - whether or not they should have been allowed to is a different matter of course.
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I don't have the same sympathy for Wasps supporters as I did with Wimbledon due to their history of moving. I guess a few of the supporters have followed them around but I'm hazarding a guess that current supporters are largely from Reading (is that where they play?) rather thanbeing from london from where the club originated. I think it could be a good move for the club but of course it's a pity for those that really have followed the club and are seeing it moved again.
I don't think it will be that bad for Coventry RFC. Their support, again I guess, is quite small as it is. They probably go just to watch Coventry and tehrefore aren't going to have their heads turned by Wasps. Its those that infrequently follow rugby that are more likely to go. As an aside do Moseley and Coventry still play their annual game on boxing day?
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They were in High Wycombe, I think London Irish play in Reading.
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Also Coventry Rugby League team enter the professional competition in 2015.
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I don't have the same sympathy for Wasps supporters as I did with Wimbledon due to their history of moving. I guess a few of the supporters have followed them around but I'm hazarding a guess that current supporters are largely from Reading (is that where they play?) rather thanbeing from london from where the club originated. I think it could be a good move for the club but of course it's a pity for those that really have followed the club and are seeing it moved again.
I don't think it will be that bad for Coventry RFC. Their support, again I guess, is quite small as it is. They probably go just to watch Coventry and tehrefore aren't going to have their heads turned by Wasps. Its those that infrequently follow rugby that are more likely to go. As an aside do Moseley and Coventry still play their annual game on boxing day?
The history of moving around is exactly why I don't see it as a big deal.
I feel for coventry more for the potential impact on player recruitment, they already have Leicester and Northampton picking up the better kids in the area, adding wasps to the mix won't be good. Hwoever Wasps are currently insistent that they will keep the training ground where it is, which eases the problem.
As has been said, they currently play at Adams Park which is Wycombe Wanderers ground.
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I don't have the same sympathy for Wasps supporters as I did with Wimbledon due to their history of moving. I guess a few of the supporters have followed them around but I'm hazarding a guess that current supporters are largely from Reading (is that where they play?) rather thanbeing from london from where the club originated. I think it could be a good move for the club but of course it's a pity for those that really have followed the club and are seeing it moved again.
I don't think it will be that bad for Coventry RFC. Their support, again I guess, is quite small as it is. They probably go just to watch Coventry and tehrefore aren't going to have their heads turned by Wasps. Its those that infrequently follow rugby that are more likely to go. As an aside do Moseley and Coventry still play their annual game on boxing day?
The history of moving around is exactly why I don't see it as a big deal.
I feel for coventry more for the potential impact on player recruitment, they already have Leicester and Northampton picking up the better kids in the area, adding wasps to the mix won't be good. Hwoever Wasps are currently insistent that they will keep the training ground where it is, which eases the problem.
As has been said, they currently play at Adams Park which is Wycombe Wanderers ground.
Realistically Coventry were never going to make it into the Premiership anyway. I guess Wasps will be seen as a Coventry based club and so the local kids will in time aspire to play for them.
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For all it's efforts rugby hasn't really moved out of its heartlands, particularly the West Country and East Midlands. The northern teams are really poorly supported and even In London there is only 1 team are inside the M25. In fact the crowd at Harlequins are family day trippers, happy flappy bridge, no heart or passion.
If you go back 30 years or so then Coventry and Moseley were 2 of the biggest clubs going, and historically Coventry has always been a egg chasing city.
I can see why Wasps have done this - whether or not they should have been allowed to is a different matter of course.
Ignoring the "egg chasing" wind up, I am struggling to see the logic that a city that hasn't had a top team for 40 years and hasn't exactly been crying out for one recently has "always been a [rugby] city".
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Where will the Wasps players train? Back in Sudbury or is the whole thing being moved to the midlands?
I'm surprised some rich dude has not built a purpose built 20k stadium in west London. Arguably both Wasps and London Irish could share it. The corporate revenue from rugby has huge potential. Not to mention if designed cleverly a fair few residential units could be built into the envelope.
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For all it's efforts rugby hasn't really moved out of its heartlands, particularly the West Country and East Midlands. The northern teams are really poorly supported and even In London there is only 1 team are inside the M25. In fact the crowd at Harlequins are family day trippers, happy flappy bridge, no heart or passion.
If you go back 30 years or so then Coventry and Moseley were 2 of the biggest clubs going, and historically Coventry has always been a egg chasing city.
I can see why Wasps have done this - whether or not they should have been allowed to is a different matter of course.
Ignoring the "egg chasing" wind up, I am struggling to see the logic that a city that hasn't had a top team for 40 years and hasn't exactly been crying out for one recently has "always been a [rugby] city".
It has consistently produced decent players in the last 20 yrs or so despite not having a Premiership team - most of the schools play rugby etc.
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For all it's efforts rugby hasn't really moved out of its heartlands, particularly the West Country and East Midlands. The northern teams are really poorly supported and even In London there is only 1 team are inside the M25. In fact the crowd at Harlequins are family day trippers, happy flappy bridge, no heart or passion.
If you go back 30 years or so then Coventry and Moseley were 2 of the biggest clubs going, and historically Coventry has always been a egg chasing city.
I can see why Wasps have done this - whether or not they should have been allowed to is a different matter of course.
Ignoring the "egg chasing" wind up, I am struggling to see the logic that a city that hasn't had a top team for 40 years and hasn't exactly been crying out for one recently has "always been a [rugby] city".
Rugby is a hard sell in the areas where kids only exposure to it is a couple of PE lessons where they use it as an excuse to beat up a few of the kids.
The key requirement to the development of UK sport now is the improvement of standards in teaching it, especially at 8-14. This isn't having a go at PE teachers, they do a decent job in what is probably the toughest subject to actually teach anything. What really needs to happen, for me, is that we need to concentrate on coaching badges, etc for them, a lot of the private schools have specialist coaches for rugby, cricket, tennis, etc which comprehensive schools can never match but they can at least get some coaching certificates amongst the department so they are able to have rugby lessons designed by a qualified coach and after school rugby clubs run by a qualified coach, same with football, cricket, etc.
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Coming from Gloucestershire, it's difficult for me to comprehend that there's schools elsewhere that don't have rugby.
Down here, it's the number one school sport and when I was a kid was played from Sep to Xmas.
We only ever had a couple of football matches during games lessons (normally after New Year). Just enough for the teacher to spot who could actually play. The team then had to train in the lunch breaks. Games lessons Jan to Easter were then reserved for hockey.
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Cheltenham was a little different. Rugby until Christmas. Football until Easter in the main.
I do agree with the comment on qualified coaches though. We were lucky on the rugby front on having a couple of teachers who had played at a decent level but at most schools the coaching of the basics was poor.
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Our school team occasionally headed to 'Nam for games but I can't remember the weedy, posh boys ever giving us much of a game :D
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If you don't mind me asking which schools are we talking here? Dean Magna?
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At Wyedean (near Chepstow) we did probably 75% Rugby in P.E.
Don't remember ever playing football. We did play Basketball when the weather was too bad to be outside and in the spring/summer months we did atheletics etc. Rugby was the main game and hardly anyone enjoyed it!
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At Wyedean (near Chepstow) we did probably 75% Rugby in P.E.
Don't remember ever playing football. We did play Basketball when the weather was too bad to be outside and in the spring/summer months we did atheletics etc. Rugby was the main game and hardly anyone enjoyed it!
We had a combined WX/Wyedean Rugby team for a while because the Beachley lot couldn't raise a team. Those that wanted to play inter-school Rugby had to come up and play for us.
Did you play BasketRugby?
That was Copper Morris's indoor sport when the weather was too bad for us to go outside.
UKR - Whitecross, Lydney (1981-1988)
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Great game at Lyd yesterday. 3-17 down to Worthing before coming back to win 18-17.
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Sounds like Steffon Armitage might be returning to England to boost his World Cup chances.
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Rugby was the main sport at my school. Quite a number of England school boys and a few of my old mates playing for Worcester, London Welsh and London Irish at the moment.
One of the lads in the year below me toured with the England squad in New Zealand in the summer too.
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Sounds like Steffon Armitage might be returning to England to boost his World Cup chances.
Yeah I just read that, this has to happen, he's comfortably the best openside in europe right now and it's an area where we don't have any established backup. I'd like to see it happen in the next few days so there's time to gethim in for the autumn internationals and give Robshaw a few weeks off.
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Sounds like Steffon Armitage might be returning to England to boost his World Cup chances.
Yeah I just read that, this has to happen, he's comfortably the best openside in europe right now and it's an area where we don't have any established backup. I'd like to see it happen in the next few days so there's time to gethim in for the autumn internationals and give Robshaw a few weeks off.
Any idea where he is going? Really surprised some of the teams being mentioned, Barf, are sufficiently under the salary cap to afford him. Unless the RFU of course are preparing to bend the rules for one of their favoured teams - surely not.
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A first big name signing for the Coventry Wasps ?
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Bath seems to be the favourite, possibly a touch harsh but the weak point in their squad is the back row so it makes sense. Sarries have been mentioned as well but Fraser is playing well and I don't see how they can have the wages available. I don't see any other side where he'd fit or want to go.
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Seems the move has stalled.
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Just landed me tickets to NZ, SA and whiney arsed convicts games, wife not happy!
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Bath seems to be the favourite, possibly a touch harsh but the weak point in their squad is the back row so it makes sense. Sarries have been mentioned as well but Fraser is playing well and I don't see how they can have the wages available. I don't see any other side where he'd fit or want to go.
Saracens are a few players past the "not having enough wages available". I'd love to audit their wage bill.
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Bath seems to be the favourite, possibly a touch harsh but the weak point in their squad is the back row so it makes sense. Sarries have been mentioned as well but Fraser is playing well and I don't see how they can have the wages available. I don't see any other side where he'd fit or want to go.
Saracens are a few players past the "not having enough wages available". I'd love to audit their wage bill.
I was trying to be polite.
The Armitage talk seems to have gone pretty quiet now, I can't see it going ahead if it doesn't happen tomorrow so it should be pretty soon when we get the final word on it. It will be a huge shame for him if something isn't worked out, 2 seasons as consistently the best forward in europe and he's probably going to miss out on the world cup in his home country at pretty the prime of his career.
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Good initiative in the rugby - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29638234 - I hope other sports take note and follow this.
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When I was playing, any concussion was an automatic three week break from the game
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Not a great weekend for the English clubs in the new Euro competition. Although most were away.
Is this an indication that we're getting ahead of ourselves from an international perspective?
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Both Sale and Wasps played above themselves in defeat. bath were poor but I'll shed no tears. Gloucester won by 50!
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Both Sale and Wasps played above themselves in defeat. bath were poor but I'll shed no tears. Gloucester won by 50!
And the Saints didn't get a bonus point. i'm a pretty casual rugby fan so I don'y know too much about the european teams however the results don't look that great to me.
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Both Sale and Wasps played above themselves in defeat. bath were poor but I'll shed no tears. Gloucester won by 50!
And the Saints didn't get a bonus point. i'm a pretty casual rugby fan so I don'y know too much about the european teams however the results don't look that great to me.
Bath was a poor result, they'd have been looking to win there. Saints won't be too disappointed, they should have got a bonus point (they lost it trying to play from their own 22 and go for the win) but Racing Metro have a very good home record so losing there isn't the end of the world. Both need good results next week though. Sale and Wasps, as mentioned above, had narrow defeats against very good sides and won't be too upset with their showings. I haven't seen any of the Leicester, Sarries or Quins games but all 3 got good results as the remaining sides in the Champions Cup.
In the Challenge Cup; Irish routed a very weak Italian side; Glaws destroyed a decent Brive side with some great performances by some of the English players (Sharples is a great finisher, May didn't score but was brilliant, Robson was exceptional for his 20minutes, Kvesic was comfortably the best player on the pitch); Newcastle got an expected win against Bucharest; Exeter will be disappointed with a defeat to Bayonne and Welsh were outclassed by Lyon.
6 wins and 6 defeats for the league across the 2 competitions doesn't really give much away in terms of our place in them yet, Only Bath and Exeter have really let themselves down.
I'm not worried about England, unlike the Irish, Scots and Welsh our players are spread across a whole bunch of sides not built around 1-2, The french sides are as strong as expected but when you can pay more than any other league in the world you get the best players, doesn't help the national side though, look how few French names are on the Toulon teamsheet for example.
What this weekend did show is that:
as I expected, the Bath backrow isn't good enough and will stop them challenging for titles this year, on top of that their backs aren't ready to be dropped en masse into the England squad as some have suggested.
Myler is great just below the very top level but doesn't quite have the running game and vision to play with the best.
Some referees (George Clancy) Don't see a problem with a tight-head binding on the arm even if it causes that side of the scrum to collapse consistently for 80minutes.
Wasps and Sale don't have the depth to compete with the best sides week in week out.
Kvesic and Robson should all be in the England squad and pushing to be involved on matchday.
Christian Wade is a special talent and England can't ignore him.
Not getting Steffon Armitage back to England so Lancaster will pick him is a huge loss, he was immense yesterday.
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Not knowing the intraccies of the game at admin level I really can't see what playing in France should preclude a player from playing for England. I'd also venture that it would be against EU regs to stop a player playing for England because of taking up employment in another EU state. Surely it could be argued that he is being denied earning in the UK because of exercising his treaty rights in France?
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Not knowing the intraccies of the game at admin level I really can't see what playing in France should preclude a player from playing for England. I'd also venture that it would be against EU regs to stop a player playing for England because of taking up employment in another EU state. Surely it could be argued that he is being denied earning in the UK because of exercising his treaty rights in France?
They don't outright stop players, just state that they're highly unlikely to be selected. The reasoning is the premiership rugby and england rugby have an agreement around training sessions/team meetings outside the irb sanctioned international meetings. As this agreement doesn't apply outside the English league they feel that a player can't fully commit to the requirements of being part of the elite squad if they aren't in England. The real issue is that Toulon have offered to adhere to the requirements wherever possible (basically so long as he doesn't travel on the day before or the day of a match) so there's really no justification for his continued exclusion beyond English rugby being run by dinosaurs who have a bee in their bonnet about him ignoring the guidelines.
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The Wade try at the end of this video is something really special and is why he has to be part of the England squad
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The Wade try at the end of this video is something really special and is why he has to be part of the England squad
Great finish. very impressive considering Madagan (?) trued to line him up before being skinned. Great finish.
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absolutely the defender does nothing wrong there, it's just that Wade shifts his balance and changes his pace so brilliantly that he gets nowhere near him. right now there's no one else in English rugby that can put someone on their heels like that (Watson and Daly have the potential but they're still getting used to the to the intensity at the top level) except for Maybe Kyle Eastmond who I'd also have in the England squad.
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It's hard to explain that change of pace. I used to be fast when playing (football) and that change of past from fast to flying is strange to explain the sensation. You actually feel you're travelling very fast and for me it was spurred by not wanting to be caught rather than getting somewhere. It was head back eyes open as if you're scared of being caught. It's not just about running fast it's about shifting through the gears whilst already at a good pace. the defender there, and the team,and maybe Wade himself, clearly didn't know he had that type of pace which I doubt he'll be able to use quite to that effect again as he'll be hEAVILY DEFENDED AND SPACE CLOSED DOWN TO HIM. I'll stop shouting now.
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Wade has done that same 'move' on people plenty of times, he can do it because he's got a step as well, he didn't need it there but if Maddigan had over-commited to the outside he'd have just cut inside with a side-step and done him anyway. Like Jason Robinson he's just got a natural flair for it that you can't teach. I used to play back row but I'm quick (I won regional 400m titles as a junior) and have a good change of pace. The first time I played against a team I almost invariably got a couple of tries by letting players line me up and then upping the pace and drifting away from them, what let me down was that because of my training as a sprinter I was too upright and got held up more than I should.
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So in the highest level what is mote important, the speed or the weight? i know both are important but would you have whispy(ish) full-back who is shit off a shovel fast?
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Speed.
Most professionals are going to have good upper body strength regardless but genuine electric pace is devastating so long as you have the technical skills to underpin it. Brice Dulin is a great example (Metro and France fullback) he's about 5' 8" and 12 stone but he's got great technique and pace and is incredibly dangerous. Strength and weight are useful in the centres though, Bastereud, Roberts and Burrell are all great examples of big strong heavy centres who have enough pace with it to bulldoze teams, it's great because it forces teams to keep the defence packed in the centre and leaves space out wide for the flyers. A big part of saints effectiveness this year is down to Burrell drawing the 13 in too tight leaving George Pisi to attack the winger and Ken Pisi and North then have a straight run on the fullback to score. This is why Burrell starts at 12 for England for me as 1 of the first names on the sheet, with Brown, Foden, Nowell, Wade, Watson and May as the wide options we have pace to burn if we can create space for them.
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I'd like to see Watson and particularly Wade come into it more now.
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Obviously we're struggling with injuries, but we should now been nailing down our World Cup team where possible. I like Burrell in the centre because I think he runs lines that other players don't.
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Also I'd like Cipriani in the squad, I think we need that bit of an x factor in and around the squad.
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sigh Barritt, Haskell and Goode, will he ever learn, oh and no place for Kvesic, Wade, Cipriani or Watson.
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Gutted in particular that Wade and Watson miss out. I don't really understand the selection of Goode and Barritt either. I really hope Wade forces his way in by the time the 6 nations comes round.
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I'm actually more surprised about the exclusion of Cipriani than the others. maybe Lancaster has decided to go with a core and just wants to have a few others around the fringes. plus, didn't someone (probably Paul) say Wade hadn't started the season that well? if so you can see why Wade is been omitted as from paul's posts there seem to any number of wingers that are there or thereabouts.
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Wade has been suffering to get back to his best after injury but like Watson and Nowell he's such a special talent that he should be with the squad and in the international environment as much as possible. Personally I'd have Dan Robson there as well he'll surpass Care and Youngs over the next 2 years, Dickson is the one who offers something different and should be part of the squad for a few years until we get another 9 with that level of game management (which Robson will develop in my opinion, he's a very clever player).
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I'm not a particular fan of Youngs. i think he was one of those players that were at the start of the Lancaster regime who were good enough to stop our 'rot' but not good enough to consistently take the game by the scruff of the neck when needed most. To be honest despite improvements I feel the same way about farrell.
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I'm not a particular fan of Youngs. i think he was one of those players that were at the start of the Lancaster regime who were good enough to stop our 'rot' but not good enough to consistently take the game by the scruff of the neck when needed most. To be honest despite improvements I feel the same way about farrell.
I agree on both, Ford is well ahead of Farrell now for me. A big part of it is that Farrell can't get into the sarries side as a 10 very often, so he's just not developing.
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I'd like to see a centre partnership of Eastmond and Burrell, I think that'd have a good balance to it.
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"To be the best it's not about the flash stuff, it's actually about skill execution and everything done at a very high level''
I agree with this statement from Lancaster to an extent for a Fly Half, but they also need to have the flair to expose an opposition defence. Dan Carter is the perfect example of this. Ford should be in front of Farrell now. I like Farrell, but if he can't start as a number 10 for his club side he shouldn't be starting for England.
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To me that's a rather blinkered view, being able to see a gap and have the pace and footwork to get through it is part of the game management of a 10, if there's no real running threat at 10 you automatically drift wider to reduce the space for the outside backs and let the 7, 8 and 9 handle the fly-half. Teams have done that to England a few times and they'r the games we end up scoring almost entirely from kicks and the forwards, it's classic 10man rugby. The odd thing is, he's gone the other way at 9, which is the back position that I think is most suitable to a 'do all the basics well' player to be a regular. Care is ok at the basics and probably deserves to be the first choice but the inclusion of Youngs and regular checks on Joe Simpson suggest that he sees a running game as the primary requirement for the position.
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I am okay with the squad apart from I would have picked Watson and Wade ahead of May and Nowell. Think Jack can come again but much to my surprise and disappointment May didn't set the 6N alight and I feel he may be just slightly lacking at the top level. Both Watson and Wade bring that x factor that most wings don't, Wade's try at the RDS on Sunday being a perfect case in point.
Myler over Cipriani I can't fathom. They both went to NZ and Cips started the Crusaders game ahead of Myler and was sublime. He has started at least as well this season as Myler and yet now he is behind him? Funny that no one has mentioned the complete hash Myler made of the last minute conversion at Racing last weekend under severe pressure? If he can't handle that then how will he handle 82k at Twickenham v NZ?
On a brighter note, having earlier this year secured tickets to NZ and Samoa, I also got South Africa and Aus tickets this morning so will be at Twickenham 4 weeks on the bounce. Can't wait :-)
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Goode ahead of Foden is equally baffling and I don't see how Barritt and Twelvetrees are both ahead of Slade right now.
As for the back row replacements I just don't see how Clark and Haskell are different enough from each other (or Robshaw) to justify picking both it should have been a selection of 1 or the other and then 1 of Armitage, Kvesic or Fraser to offer a genuine alternative to Robshaw, 2 8s, 3 6s and a 6 who plays at 7 just isn't a balanced back row.
I just hope he follows through with the comment that they intend to add to the squad after this weekend.
Most imprtant of all he needs to spread the experience around a little this autumn. His complete over-reliance on Robshaw and Farrell is risking us having no viable alternatives if either of them miss the world cup. At 10 his hand was forced in the summer and both Cips and Burns came in and played very well but both have been dumped and he clearly doesn't fancy them for the world cup so Ford and Myler need 2-3 starts each this season and I don't see him doing that. It's all very MON for me, he has his favourites who he's going to stick with or try to show-horn in regardless of performance of them or others.
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Yeah there are a few names who I'm very disappointed aren't involved. The likes of Foden, Cipriani, Wade, Watson and Kvesic should have been included.
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haha, oh Nige...
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Farrell has had an absolute shocker of a first half tonight, really poor.
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Saints were very good today, North is unplayable in that form and the rest of the side are so good at making chances for him, some of the offloading from Wood was sublime and Foden had a great game.
Bath showed again that they desperately need a better backrow to compete with the big sides.
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A bunch of guys have been added so the full squad now is:
England Squad (41)
Loose-head props
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Alex Waller (Northampton Saints)
Tight-head props
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Hookers
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Back rows
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, captain)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Exeter Chiefs)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)*
Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Fly halves
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Centres
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Back threes
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
It's a huge shame to see Burrell not on the list but hopefully his hand is just bruising and he'll join in a couple of days. The only clear omission now is Cipriani and given Farrell's performance on Friday he probably should be there in his place. I'm surprised there isn't a 3rd hooker in there though but I can't really see an obvious choice which is probably why, Youngs will obviously come in to things when fit. Not sure his brother should be there though, from what I've heard from someone who was there he was terrible yesterday.
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Coventry / Wasps article.....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29822480
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England: Mike Brown (Harlequins); Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Kyle Eastmond (Bath), Jonny May (Gloucester); Owen Farrell (Saracens), Danny Care (Harlequins); Joe Marler (Harlequins), Dylan Hartley (Northampton), David Wilson (Bath), David Attwood (Bath), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Tom Wood (Northampton), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens).
Replacements: Rob Webber (Bath), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle), George Kruis (Saracens), Ben Morgan (Gloucester), Ben Youngs (Leicester), George Ford (Bath), Anthony Watson (Bath).
Barritt back into the team and Farrell still starting despite being unfit and off-form I'm getting really fed up of Lancaster now. This is a team that screams that we're going to try to keep it tight and kick our way to a win how exciting. I'd also love to get an insight into how Ben Youngs can possibly be considered the 2nd best 9 in English rugby after the start he's made to the season.
I am very happy to see Roko get a start and Watson and Brookes on the bench, all 3 deserve their chance, I'm also glad he promoted Attwood to the team rather than keeping him on the bench and putting Kruis in which I thought he might do.
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It's funny with Lancaster, because I think he does a lot of good things like calling up Roko and having Watson in the squad now. But he has blindspots when it comes to Farrell and Barritt. I quite like Farrell, but on current form and fitness he shouldn't be picked. As for Barritt I thought we'd moved away from him, I just hope come the World Cup he's not involved.
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In the middle of a big week for Hull Ionians under 12's. Last week we got through the last qualifier for the Yorkshire cup. Then, tomorrow night we get to play a 15 minutes game at Headingly. We are the halftime entertainment for a Leeds Carnegie game. It should be good, my lad will get to play in front of a crowd of a few thousand.
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In the middle of a big week for Hull Ionians under 12's. Last week we got through the last qualifier for the Yorkshire cup. Then, tomorrow night we get to play a 15 minutes game at Headingly. We are the halftime entertainment for a Leeds Carnegie game. It should be good, my lad will get to play in front of a crowd of a few thousand.
Good for him.
Let us know how he gets on.
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In the middle of a big week for Hull Ionians under 12's. Last week we got through the last qualifier for the Yorkshire cup. Then, tomorrow night we get to play a 15 minutes game at Headingly. We are the halftime entertainment for a Leeds Carnegie game. It should be good, my lad will get to play in front of a crowd of a few thousand.
Good for him.
Let us know how he gets on.
Yeah, good luck to the lad, tell him to make sure he enjoys the experience and to not get too nervous about the crowd.
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thanks guys
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Bloody hell...... Johnny May.........that was brilliant
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Good first half need to keep it up.
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Good half in defence and have had good territory but we still haven't looked like we can take the chances, May scored a wonder try from nothing but we didn't take the chances to make it a 15-20 point lead during that very good start, which just encourages them back into the game.
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This is real danger time now, but in fairness this is with the exception of Carter New Zealand's first choice team and we are massively depleted.
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Got to stop trying to play in our own half.
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This is real danger time now, but in fairness this is with the exception of Carter New Zealand's first choice team and we are massively depleted.
5th and 6th choice locks once Lawes went off.
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Their try came from Farrell not finding touch with the penalty, we got the ball back but in the wrong part of the pitch to play so when they turned it over there were gaps in our half.
Definite yellow for Coles for me, we really need to get some points whilst we have the man advantage.
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Poor discipline by the NZ hooker but it was Hartley who instigated that
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Box kicks - do they ever achieve anything?
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Our tactical kicking is not good enough at the moment. I'd get Ford on.
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Poor since the sin bin.
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Box kicks - do they ever achieve anything?
When Care and youngs do them? No. When a 9 with the ability to get them right does them they're very effective.
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Get Ford on. We're going to lose this.
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Farrell is the main issue, he's been really poor this half after being just poor in the first half.
fuck off lancaster, takes off the only creative player we've had so he can keep Farrell in case we get a kickable penalty, fucking painfully negative.
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Hmm, this game's done I think.
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Poor since the sin bin.
NZ won the sin bin 3-0
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Box kicks - do they ever achieve anything?
In modern rugby, probably not.
However, in the 1980s, box kicks took the Mighty Lyd to the third or fourth round of the John Player Cup most seasons.
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And that just about wraps it up for NZ
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Piss poor in the second half, we've offered nothing at all. What does Farrell have to do to be substituted? Yes we're battered by injuries, but the second half hasn't been good enough.
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Dan Carter, the worlds most overqualified waterboy
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Piss poor in the second half, we've offered nothing at all. What does Farrell have to do to be substituted? Yes we're battered by injuries, but the second half hasn't been good enough.
Whilst his dad is the backs coach I think Farrell is safely starting every game he wants to, despite the fact that he's 3rd or 4th choice on form, taking off Eastmond to accommodate him in the centre is just a massive slap in the face.
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Robshaw has lost it completely here again going for scrums.
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Oh well one more play.
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Score make that closer than it was, we were rubbish in the second half and got it tactically completely wrong.
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people will point to us being 3 points short but in truth that 2nd half was fucking disgraceful by the half backs, farrell was awful in the 2nd half and if there's any justice he should start another game this autumn, in reality he'll play against SA and Oz and then they'll throw a token start to Ford in the Samoa game.
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Half backs were awful in the second half, but the whole game plan fell apart. I like Eastmond in the centre but Barritt offers nothing.
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Pressure's on for next week now with Ireland beating South Africa.
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Just back from Twickenham, very disappointing second half especially after Robsahaw had Mcraw in his pocket all the first half.
That said the refereeing was shocking, Nigel Owens was a disgrace, every decision was against England, their first try was a yard short as was their third, their second was a forwad pass, clearly the IRB had told Owens to make decisions rather than rely on TMO, he was a fucking joke and ruined the game second half.
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....and what does McCaw have to do to get a card? The bloke is a brilliant player and a cheat.
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"Hands off Black seven" must be the most over used refereeing phrase of the last decade.
The rugby equivelent of Alan Shearer.
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Just back from Twickenham, very disappointing second half especially after Robsahaw had Mcraw in his pocket all the first half.
That said the refereeing was shocking, Nigel Owens was a disgrace, every decision was against England, their first try was a yard short as was their third, their second was a forwad pass, clearly the IRB had told Owens to make decisions rather than rely on TMO, he was a fucking joke and ruined the game second half.
There was nothing wrong with the third try. The line that the ball was a "yard short" off was some advertising markings (the TMO apologised to the Ref for holding the game up to check when there was no need to look). The ball was grounded well over the try line.
However, I'm with you on the first. I'm still not sure that the ball touched the line.
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Looking past the decisions my frustration was with the second half, our intensity dropped off badly. We also don't learn how to be clinical. Although that might be impacted by our injuries. Positives -
- Eastmond looked good
- May showed that international X factor
- our line out was excellent
- first half was good
negatives -
- second half we were poor
- tactically the half backs kicking was woeful
- there is a massive blind spot when it comes to Farrell
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Paul I'm with you re the second half, our kicking was woefully inept, that said NZs kicking wasn't great either, failing to find touch and out on the full in the first half.
We kicked away good possession and territory too many times in the second half.
Positives were deg=finitely in the line out and our scrum was getting on top as the game progressed, I never saw it pushed back all game, even through a haze of Guinness.
Next week is the one to win, we haven't beaten SA since 2003 and that needs changing next Saturday.
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We really do need to win next Saturday, especially with Ireland winning yesterday.
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We could do with battering the convicts as well, good psychological boost ahead of the RWC when we play them first in the pool stage.
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Looking past the decisions my frustration was with the second half, our intensity dropped off badly. We also don't learn how to be clinical. Although that might be impacted by our injuries. Positives -
- Eastmond looked good
- May showed that international X factor
- our line out was excellent
- first half was good
negatives -
- second half we were poor
- tactically the half backs kicking was woeful
- there is a massive blind spot when it comes to Farrell
Agree with all of those, the Farrell one is the key, add Barritt in the centres and we just don't get the ball to the wings enough, how many times did Rokoduguni touch the ball other than catching NZ kicks? Did Watson touch the ball?
I'm still really frustrated with the Eastmond substitution, we'd barely touch the ball and kicked away everything we'd had so his solution was to sure up the kicking options, it was straight from the 80s and is the sort of decision which is the difference between NH and SH sides, can you imagine any of the big SH sides making a sub with an eye on winning a couple of penalties to sneak the game? We really need to learn how to use our outside backs properly and that means picking inside backs who look to get the ball out wide.
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Yeah the frustration is that we looked like we were moving towards that more expansive game a year or so ago, but we seem to have gone backwards.
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I think the 2nd test in NZ has knocked his confidence and he's edging towards safety first. What makes that such a silly decision is that in the 1st and 3rd tests of that tour we were far more adventurous and pushed them a lot closer.
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Yep in order to challenge NZ you have to attack them.
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I think with Farrell we may well get to the final but won't win it, but with Ford we might not make the final but if we did we would stand a greater chance of winning it.
Not sure if the above makes sense.....
evrumsfeld
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I understand, Farrell is steady and will kick the points in the tight games but won't create the breaks for tries in those games. Ford on the other hand will make things happen but has had a few issues with his place kicking.
My thinking is that Ford, Cips, Burns all have the basics to be good kickers they just need the desire to put in the practice to step it up to '90%+ conversion rate' territory. Farrell doesn't have the basic vision and flair to learn to do the other part of the game so he'll need to do what Myler has done and use experience to bridge that gap. Unfortunately he barely gets a start at 10 for his club so he's not had the opportunity to do this other than at international level. For me learning how to play your position properly can't happen at international level when there are 4-5 other candidates for your position.
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Yeah I'd say the minimum requirement should be that if you can't start for your club in a position you shouldn't be considered for England.
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Rokoduguni out, Wood 50/50. Unlikely to be any changes at 10, 12, 13 as apparently that would be unfair (according to Mike Catt).
In other news Guscott has made it pretty clear that he doesn't see any appeal in Farrell in the centres.
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The only benefit from Farrell in the centres is an extra kicking option. But frankly I'd be unhappy with a centre pairing of Farrell and Barritt. Barritt more than anyone offers nothing for me at international level. Roko being out is a shame.
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Same team aside from Watson in for Roko and Yarde onto the bench. Given that Eastmond and Wood have both missed some training that's pretty good news, just a shame that they clearly saw Barritt back in the centres as a success, such a shame that Burrell hurt his hand, I really wanted to see Eastmond and Burrell get a few games together before they inevitably bring Manu back in as soon as he's fit.
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Well they've essentially selected the same team, so I guess they have a chance to redeem themselves. It is disappointing that they're continuing with Barritt though. I just hope they see Manu or Burrell as the outside centre options when fit.
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I really excited to see Watson, i just hope they get him some service (roko got fuck all last week). I've been banging a drum about this kid for about 4-5 years so seeing him start for England is a nice affirmation that I do actually know what I'm on about when I talk about rugby players. I can see him beign our version of North, big, strong, quick but with great hands, good passing and offloading and a great change of pace and direction that's very difficult to read. The extra pace at professional level took him a couple of years to adjust to from age level rugby but the whole package is there, I think he'll go on to establish himself in the side and be a key player for the world cup.
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Well let's hope so, I'm hoping he becomes our Savea!
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Wasps now own 100% of the Ricoh
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30056170
Coventry City has last ditch bid for a 50% share turned down
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-city-fcs-ricoh-arena-8108559
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God there's some bitter coventry fans in the comments section of that last link.
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Fuckety fuck
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Shocking half, terrible execution, no leadership and no game plan.
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All the territory, poor decision making and no width. I despair of Farrell at times. They need to get there shit together second half. And Walsh is still a prick.
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This is a massive half with for Lancaster he needs to make some big decisions.
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Dreadful.
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Good response and against 14 we need to take advantage now.
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Excellent response we have to win this now.
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And back to shocking again.
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Farrell needs to be dropped now, he was fucking terrible for most of that hour.
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Right then Ford, kick the sodding thing and create.
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Ford was fine when he came on, but our complete lack of threat from the 10-12-13 group means teams just hhold us as arms length and then punish our errors.
On top of that I'm pretty fed up of us having a 7 who is the european player of the year who doesn't get picked and then seeing opposition 7s boss the game and get man of the match, Lancaster is looking out of his depth now.
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Major question marks over Farrell and Robshaw in particular. Farrell simply has to be dropped now he was diabolical. We were dreadful against a South African side who weren't that great. First real pressure on Lancaster.
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Farrell is unfit and off form, he shouldn't have been picked in the squad but his dad clearly has lots of influence and makes sure he first choice whenever he's available.
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It is tough for Ford to come on for 15 minutes when we are inevitably chasing the game. We can chop and change the rest of the backs but it is pointless as they never have the chance to get their hand on the ball. Eastomond to me looks our most creative player.
I also think that the breakdown is an issue, certainly defensively, as we never seem to turn over ball as frequently as other teams.
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Our basic skills were poor today, as was our discipline. In fact in all facets of the game we were pretty poor. We lacked intensity with the exception of that small phase of the second half. It's not good enough we appear to have gone backwards. I don't think Farrell is a bad player, but as said he's not fit or in form and shouldn't be near the side. Lancaster needs to make tough decisions on the players he's loyal to now, because they are letting him down.
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Ford was fine when he came on, but our complete lack of threat from the 10-12-13 group means teams just hhold us as arms length and then punish our errors.
On top of that I'm pretty fed up of us having a 7 who is the european player of the year who doesn't get picked and then seeing opposition 7s boss the game and get man of the match, Lancaster is looking out of his depth now.
I'd like Armitage in the side, but to be honest I agree with the policy of not selecting players outside England. It would completely undermine the Premiership and it would impact our national side in the long run. If Armitage was that desperate to play he'd be back in England now.
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I'm also not sure he's out of his depth, he got the England side playing the way they should be playing last year. But he needs to balance his loyalty with what's good for the team.
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Ford was fine when he came on, but our complete lack of threat from the 10-12-13 group means teams just hhold us as arms length and then punish our errors.
On top of that I'm pretty fed up of us having a 7 who is the european player of the year who doesn't get picked and then seeing opposition 7s boss the game and get man of the match, Lancaster is looking out of his depth now.
I'd like Armitage in the side, but to be honest I agree with the policy of not selecting players outside England. It would completely undermine the Premiership and it would impact our national side in the long run. If Armitage was that desperate to play he'd be back in England now.
I agree with it in principal, but when you're talking about the captain of the best side in europe who was named the best player in europe and has been key to his side winning everything for 2-3 years you have to be willing to enforce the 'exceptional circumstances' clause that is included in the policy.
When I say out of his depth I mean more that he's hit his glass ceiling. I think we can compete with australia/ireland/wales/france and generally come out of it well but SA and NZ are a class above us and it's not because they've got better players (in many cases that's debatable) it's because they've got a better mentality. 2 weeks running we've got to 80minutes needing a score to win and 2 weeks running we've knocked-on in our own half having looked lost for ideas of how to break through. It's those small differences that are holding us back and it's because in those games we pick a team to not lose rather than a team to win.
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Just home from another disappointing day at Twickenham. What happened for the first 43 minutes?
Farrell has to be dropped or at the very least moved to inside centre, he's a liability.
It pains me to say it but Steve Walsh did just about OK in the end, he still hates England and we and the Welsh nation all hate him right back. If he'd been any good in the bedroom department, he wouldn't have to hate England, so the rumour goes.
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Farrell at inside centre would be even worse than Farrell at 10.
I think he needs a break from the team as he seems to have lost his way a little.
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Farrell at inside centre would be even worse than Farrell at 10.
I think he needs a break from the team as he seems to have lost his way a little.
Having Dad on the coaching team means that's not likely to happen, that said next week is the time to try something different because it's not working.
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Farrell needs to be dropped and we can't have Barritt at 13. I'm hoping Burrell will be back for the last two games. I hope Lancaster realises the personnel are all wrong and need to be changed. Also Billy needs to be dropped after his last two performances.
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If Ben Morgan doesn't start next week, we know the old school tie network is still alive and kicking. Same with Farrell.
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If Ben Morgan doesn't start next week, we know the old school tie network is still alive and kicking. Same with Farrell.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Ben Morgan plays for Gloucester probably one of the most established clubs in the country. Is it his schooling that you're referring to?
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If Ben Morgan doesn't start next week, we know the old school tie network is still alive and kicking. Same with Farrell.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Ben Morgan plays for Gloucester probably one of the most established clubs in the country. Is it his schooling that you're referring to?
Sorry clumsy wording. Some players see to get picked by reputation or who's dad is on the coaching staff (eg Farrell) rather than ability. The old boy network favours the establishment teams (Harlequin, Saracens etc). If. Ford and Morgan don't play next week then players are being picked on the old boy network of who you know or who you play for not ability.
Also don't get me started on Gloucester players shamefully overlooked by Engalnd for inferior players over the years, John Gadd, Richard Mogg, James Simpson Daniel, James Forrester, Andy Hazel, just off the top of my head.
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If Ben Morgan doesn't start next week, we know the old school tie network is still alive and kicking. Same with Farrell.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Ben Morgan plays for Gloucester probably one of the most established clubs in the country. Is it his schooling that you're referring to?
Sorry clumsy wording. Some players see to get picked by reputation or who's dad is on the coaching staff (eg Farrell) rather than ability. The old boy network favours the establishment teams (Harlequin, Saracens etc). If. Ford and Morgan don't play next week then players are being picked on the old boy network of who you know or who you play for not ability.
Also don't get me started on Gloucester players shamefully overlooked by Engalnd for inferior players over the years, John Gadd, Richard Mogg, James Simpson Daniel, James Forrester, Andy Hazel, just off the top of my head.
The important game for Ford to start is against Australia.
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If Ben Morgan doesn't start next week, we know the old school tie network is still alive and kicking. Same with Farrell.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Ben Morgan plays for Gloucester probably one of the most established clubs in the country. Is it his schooling that you're referring to?
Sorry clumsy wording. Some players see to get picked by reputation or who's dad is on the coaching staff (eg Farrell) rather than ability. The old boy network favours the establishment teams (Harlequin, Saracens etc). If. Ford and Morgan don't play next week then players are being picked on the old boy network of who you know or who you play for not ability.
Also don't get me started on Gloucester players shamefully overlooked by Engalnd for inferior players over the years, John Gadd, Richard Mogg, James Simpson Daniel, James Forrester, Andy Hazel, just off the top of my head.
I agree on most of those names but JSD really shouldn't be there. England were desperate to include him and he was picked in almost every squad named for years, the problem was he'd always pick up a knock within days of being called up and have to withdraw.
I really think the next 2 games should see Robshaw, Farrell and Barritt taken out completely (and Billy V to the bench) they've all been poor, the biggest issue is they haven't named any cover for Robshaw so he stays regardless.
I'm happy with the front 5, aside from a pathetic decision to yellow card Hartley and a poor bit of handling by Attwood there's not really much negative to say there. Given the number of injuries we're already covering I don't see any changes there other than maybe giving Brookes and Webber a start vs Samoa.
Backrow have been poor, Billy has struggled to get involved (Sarries have played him a 6 a few times, I wonder if that's affecting him) and Robshaw has been totally dominated, at least Wood has been his usual self and has kept us competitive. Morgan needs to come in at the very least, I'd also be looking for an excuse to call Kvesic in to give us a proper 7.
At half backs Care probably needs to stay in at 9 despite not having the best of games but I'd bring Dickson on to the bench to try to generate quick ball later in the game. At 10 Farrell needs to go out completely, Ford to start and then Burns or Cipriani onto the bench, As always you're looking for impact from the bench and those 2 have the quality to be game changers.
Centres need a rethink, I'd bring Burrell in at 13 and then bring Joseph on the bench, means we don't have a dedicated outside back on the bnech but Eastmond and Joseph are both capable of covering those positions, better than having to bring someone like Yarde on in the centre.
Back 3 are ok for me, they've had no ball going forward but defensively they've been ok, I'm still not entirely convinced Brown is good enough though.
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In the middle of a big week for Hull Ionians under 12's. Last week we got through the last qualifier for the Yorkshire cup. Then, tomorrow night we get to play a 15 minutes game at Headingly. We are the halftime entertainment for a Leeds Carnegie game. It should be good, my lad will get to play in front of a crowd of a few thousand.
Well two good weeks for my Lad, I must say he's developing into quite a good player.
We did the half time at Leeds Carnegie, It was only a friendly against Rotherham. The lads were not fazed by playing in front of a crowd of about 5000. We won 2 tries to one. He didn't score but put in a few good tackes, he even got an "oooh" from the crowd when he brought down one of their bigger lads, crunching tackle for an 11 year old.
This week we were at Market Rasen, smashing club and people. There was a bit of a slope on the pitch, but we ended up winning 27-10.
He made 2 tries one with a 30 to 40 metre run through the middle. The last 15 metres with 2 or 3 of their lads trying to bring him down, a proper forwards drive, then quick ball out from the ruck for the backs to score in the corner.
We give out 2 trophies each week for the players to keep for the next seven days. Man of the match and Iron Man. The forwards think its great to get mom , but the one they all want is Iron man. It sits today on his shelf in the bedroom.
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Burrell is back in the squad for Saturday.
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Good news.
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Farrell is unfit and off form, he shouldn't have been picked in the squad but his dad clearly has lots of influence and makes sure he first choice whenever he's available.
agreed, I reckon he is in as a son and kicker only and Ford looked a lot better at getting the ball away especially kicking in behind them as it allowed us to turn the Springboks round and running back towards their posts.
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One thing I will say in Lancaster's defence is that come the end of the 6 Nations we looked a really good and developing side. Whoever decided to schedule our next five fixtures to be NZ, NZ, NZ, NZ ,and South Africa and the first of those games to be a week after the Premiership final was absolutely crazy. From a side who looked to be finding ourselves we now look shot.
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Lancaster's response to the 'England in crisis' comments at a press conference today were refreshing to hear, in fact his response about what constituted a team in crisis rather ironically described Villa to a T.
I'm not going this weekend, I and my liver need a weekend off but I'm fully expecting a bruising but ultimately victorious encounter ready for the whingeing convicts.
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Did anyone watch the Wales v Fiji game on TV ?
I was at the Millennium and thought that it was the worst game of rugby I've ever seen (including some pretty dire Lydney Utd and 3rd XV games)
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Our club helping out the city again. http://thebirminghampress.com/2014/11/rugby-set-to-boost-citys-economy/
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Bit annoyed Burrell isn't in the match day squad.
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I do hope it's the kick up the arse Billy V needs.
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Bit annoyed Burrell isn't in the match day squad.
How the fuck are wigglesworth and twelvetrees ahead of Dickson and Burrell on current form. I don't mind chopping and changing for this game but if you are going to rest people rest fucking Farrell and Robshaw who you'd built a side that on rails around.
I didn't want Lancaster in the first place because I was worried he'd go the safe european route of building a big pack and playing 10man rugby and the more pressure comes on the further into the stereotype he's withdrawing.
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Twelvetrees gives an extra dimension and kicks, his club form justifies selection.
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Twelvetrees gives an extra dimension and kicks, his club form justifies selection.
It really doesn't. I get that his kicking gives us an option, but he's been very hit and miss for glaws this year and his England performances haven't been good enough to earn him a place by rights. In truth he's very lucky to be in the training squad right now.
What Burrell brings that we don't have without him is dangerous running angles. England struggle to break teams down because we're predictable and, until Burgess is up to speed, Burrell is the best option to address that in the midfield.
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They won't all get picked, but we have Ford at fly-half, Farrell at inside centre and potentially Twelvetrees at outside centre all selected with one eye on their kicking ability. Doesn't that sum up English rugby?
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That's exactly what I mean by the stereotype, strong pack, kick for territory and get the forwards to trundle over for points. With Watson, Wade, May, Yarde, Brown, Foden, Nowell , etc as the outside backs we have the pace, skill and desire to use our backs properly and get them exploiting space but whilst we insist on a 10 and usually 12 who, first and foremost, are there to kick for touch we're never going to make the most of those players.
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I'd persist with Eastmond too - his lines of running and flat passing are good.
But then we have hardly seen him with the ball in hand...........
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I'd persist with Eastmond too - his lines of running and flat passing are good.
But then we have hardly seen him with the ball in hand...........
Injured unfortunately, which gives the perfect excuse for Lancaster to give Ford the start he deserves but not actually drop Farrell.
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I'm a bit concerned that it sounds like Bath are going to play Burgess in the back row.
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I'm a bit concerned that it sounds like Bath are going to play Burgess in the back row.
Think Mike Ford alluded to this on the radio on Sunday.
They did (and maybe still do) have a dearth of back row options due to injury so maybe this was influencing his thinking.
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The thing is I think Burgess could make a good impact as a back row, but to be a make a massive impact he needs to play in the centre.
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I'm a bit concerned that it sounds like Bath are going to play Burgess in the back row.
Think Mike Ford alluded to this on the radio on Sunday.
They did (and maybe still do) have a dearth of back row options due to injury so maybe this was influencing his thinking.
That's all well and good, but Burgess coming over to union is to ultimately benefit the national team. Otherwise what's the point?
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Who is paying his salary - Bath or RFU?
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Looking more into it. It would seem that the RFU has screwed themselves by not contributing to the fee for Burgess to come over. They should have done that.
I'm firmly of the opinion that there is no point whatsoever, in league players coming over to union, unless the goal is to get them in the national set up as quickly as possible.
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The thing is I think Burgess could make a good impact as a back row, but to be a make a massive impact he needs to play in the centre.
Correct, coming from league to union and trying to make it as a loose forward (I'm saying that to include 2nd row which is becoming a much more athletic role) is incredibly difficult, they're entirely different skill sets, crash centres in union are a lot like league forwards so there is a natural translation of his skills there and given how good he is you'd suspect he's ot the potential to be one of the best 12s in the world. Yes he hasn't got a great kicking game but I want a my 12 picked on how good he is when he has the ball, not how good he is at getting rid of it.
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The thing is I think Burgess could make a good impact as a back row, but to be a make a massive impact he needs to play in the centre.
Correct, coming from league to union and trying to make it as a loose forward (I'm saying that to include 2nd row which is becoming a much more athletic role) is incredibly difficult, they're entirely different skill sets, crash centres in union are a lot like league forwards so there is a natural translation of his skills there and given how good he is you'd suspect he's ot the potential to be one of the best 12s in the world. Yes he hasn't got a great kicking game but I want a my 12 picked on how good he is when he has the ball, not how good he is at getting rid of it.
Yep well I hope common sense prevails and he plays in the centre.
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I am sure once Bath get some back row forwards back then he will be played in the backs.
Mind you, they already have Joseph, Eastmond and Devoto and a few others so they not exactly short there either.
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So Farrell starts at centre then. It is a bit of a worrying decision. Although I suppose if they want to look at that combination this is the time to do it. I think come the 6 nations I hope to see a combination of either Burrell/Burgess and Tuilagi.
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Also I really think that other options need to be considered at 7.
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Farrell and Barritt in the centres is a wildly depressing thought
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Farrell and Barritt in the centres is a wildly depressing thought
Yeah it is not a lot of creativity there. Thing is I think you can go with power or guile, but you need one of them and I don't think that combination offers either. I don't think Farrell is anywhere near as bad as he's been playing, but if he's going to play he has to play fly half. Personally I think he needs to go back to Saracens and work on being their first choice fly half and if he does that then he can think of starting for England. As for the centres I think ,when fit, I'd go either Eastmond and Tuilagi, Burrell and Tuilagi or Burgess and Tuilagi.
As for the back row we really need to look at alternatives to Robshaw. If we're not going to consider dropping him then I'd look at Haskell at 7 this week and Robshaw at 6 purely to see how he does there. Whatever happens we have to add a lot of pace to our game and get our confidence back.
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Looking more into it. It would seem that the RFU has screwed themselves by not contributing to the fee for Burgess to come over. They should have done that.
I'm firmly of the opinion that there is no point whatsoever, in league players coming over to union, unless the goal is to get them in the national set up as quickly as possible.
There's plenty of reasons for the bloke to switch to Union. It doesn't all have to be about playing for England. Eg, he might prefer the sport, be getting more money or just want a higher profile than he'd have playing the Northern Game.
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Looking more into it. It would seem that the RFU has screwed themselves by not contributing to the fee for Burgess to come over. They should have done that.
I'm firmly of the opinion that there is no point whatsoever, in league players coming over to union, unless the goal is to get them in the national set up as quickly as possible.
There's plenty of reasons for the bloke to switch to Union. It doesn't all have to be about playing for England. Eg, he might prefer the sport, be getting more money or just want a higher profile than he'd have playing the Northern Game.
I'm thinking more of the viewpoint of the sport itself rather than the player. Average, journeymen league players coming to union would be of absolutely no benefit to the RFU or the national side.
I may be in the minority, and it may be because I don't passionately follow any one union club side, but I think the fundamental purpose of the clubs should be to help and develop players for the national team.
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Farrell and Barritt in the centres is a wildly depressing thought
Yeah it is not a lot of creativity there. Thing is I think you can go with power or guile, but you need one of them and I don't think that combination offers either. I don't think Farrell is anywhere near as bad as he's been playing, but if he's going to play he has to play fly half. Personally I think he needs to go back to Saracens and work on being their first choice fly half and if he does that then he can think of starting for England. As for the centres I think ,when fit, I'd go either Eastmond and Tuilagi, Burrell and Tuilagi or Burgess and Tuilagi.
As for the back row we really need to look at alternatives to Robshaw. If we're not going to consider dropping him then I'd look at Haskell at 7 this week and Robshaw at 6 purely to see how he does there. Whatever happens we have to add a lot of pace to our game and get our confidence back.
The issue with the latter is that our one consistently excellent back row for the last 3 years is Tom Wood, dropping him to accommodate moving Robshaw across to 6 would be a terrible decision. The issue is Lancaster picked a guy who wasn't in the squad (for good reason at the time) to be his captain largely because at that time he was the only viable choice in his position but since then 2-3 players have progressed beyond him. I get you want to stay loyal to the players you've put faith in but it's getting to the point now where it's harming our chances of progressing. He's done the same at 10 and is still unwilling to see that Farrell can't be guaranteed a spot so he's now moved him out to 12 where his predictability will be even more stark. I'd said a few times thart we'll win this game regardless, looking at the team he's selected I'm less convinced, it'll be the front 5 that make it happen if we do win because everything from there back looks disjointed with most of them either found at this level, totally out of form or completely untested, the only 2 I'd say are genuinely in form are Morgan and Ford. May and Watson are a tough call because both have the ability to turn games but I just don't see us getting the ball to them anything like enough to let them show they deserve to be there. Ashton has been hounded out of the squad for the same reason and Wade is overlooked because when he's not getting the ball and beating men he doesn't offer a great deal.
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I think lots of people forget how good an in form Ashton is. He's a quality player and should be involved in some capacity.
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I think lots of people forget how good an in form Ashton is. He's a quality player and should be involved in some capacity.
People see the defensive errors and see nothing at the other end and have decided he's crap when in reality if used properly he's still the best support runner in England (probably in europe if I'm honest) him playing off Ford, Eastmond and Burrell with all 3 of those looking to pick the weak shoulder and then offload would see us punch through teams regularly, if Manu can get his offloading game working and Burgess can translate his over from league we'll have a perfect setup in the squad for the wingers to be support runners rather than leaving them out wide to feed on scraps. If we do get to that point Watson needs to be on the other wing as he's the other English winger who looks suited to coming looking for work rather than waiting for stuff to happen. May and Wade are great as broken field runners and Roko and Yarde are the right choices if we carry on playing the percentages game we have now.
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I think lots of people forget how good an in form Ashton is. He's a quality player and should be involved in some capacity.
How long ago was he in top form? 3 years?
I dont think he should be picked on former glories. As with Robshaw a whole host of players have most ast him and he did get picked for a few years when not on top of his game.
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The problem I see with Ashton (and Cohen before him) is that he seems to have lost the belief that he can burn an opposition winger on the outside. As a consequence he comes back inside, presumably to avoid getting isolated. There's nowt wrong with that tactic as it keeps the ball alive however if it becomes predictable - which I think it has - the defensive line can congest the central areas and not worry about the space beyond the winger.
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I think lots of people forget how good an in form Ashton is. He's a quality player and should be involved in some capacity.
How long ago was he in top form? 3 years?
I dont think he should be picked on former glories. As with Robshaw a whole host of players have most ast him and he did get picked for a few years when not on top of his game.
He did pretty well at domestic and European level last year.
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One of my frustrations is that I wouldn't argue that Billy V and Care deserved to be dropped, but then so did Farrell and Robshaw. It just seems that there are players who will play regardless of form. What I want is an England team who plays dynamically and is picked on form. I just want everyone to have a level playing field.
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One of my frustrations is that I wouldn't argue that Billy V and Care deserved to be dropped, but then so did Farrell and Robshaw. It just seems that there are players who will play regardless of form. What I want is an England team who plays dynamically and is picked on form. I just want everyone to have a level playing field.
Agree, sticking with a player who doesn't deserve to be in the team because he's your captain only works if you have someone who' a really good captain and there are no other viable candidates. I'd argue that Wood is a entirely viable alternative and is in the team on form (he should've been made captain in the first place) so the only reason is that Lancaster feels he owes Robshaw something, which is admirable but clearly misguided.
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Steffon Armitage still has a burning ambition to play for England again and believes he is "100% a better player". Armitage has won five caps for England and has dismissed any suggestions that he might switch his allegiance to France even though he was included in a provisional French squad this summer.
Right well come back and play in England then Steffon please!
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Wasn't Steffon born in Trinidad & Tobago or is that Delon I'm thinking of? Anyway the only play in England rule is an interesting one again as we head toward the RWC, last week Habana stated very publicly his thanks that SA Rugby allow SA players to play outside of SA, after all his game has surely improved playing against better players in France and in the European Cup rather than back home in SA.
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I could understand England not picking players who play in SA/NZ/AUS but can't seen any reason for not picking those in France.
If Newcastle had any players in the England squad they'd be further away from HQ than any English players in a Paris team.
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I could understand England not picking players who play in SA/NZ/AUS but can't seen any reason for not picking those in France.
If Newcastle had any players in the England squad they'd be further away from HQ than any English players in a Paris team.
It's based on a agreement between the premiership and the RFU to allow the Elite squad members a number of days with the england squad outside the international windows. What makes that argument a complete farce is that Toulon have agreed to allow him to travel to those sessions (and when it was rejected they agreed to loan him to an English club for a year, which fell through) so the club are doing everything to make it happen. As I've said before I'm convinced that Lancaster is using the England based rule as an excuse to avoid making a decision on dropping his captain.
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I won't be able to see the game but it'd be nice if we could put in a performance.
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Good effort by Wales but they've had it now.
The Forest's own Wayne Barnes reffing
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Red shirts and black shorts is a strange look for England
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Farrell is even worse this week than he has been for the last 2, this is about the worst centre pairing I can remember for england it's painful to watch given that we actually have some good centres available (Burrell, Joseph and Slade would all be a massive upgrade).
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Johnny May is a bit quick
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Johnny May is a bit quick
easily the quickest player in the squad
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13 man line out by Samoa
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Faintly disappointing yet again the crowd reacts rather than lifts the team.
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So what are people's assessments of the game?
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Where do you start?
What does Burrell need to do to start at centre?
Where is the expansive game we hear so much about?
Where is the intensity?
Why is Farrell first on the team sheet?
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Why is Farrell first on the team sheet?
His dad owns the only pen at the RFU ?
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I can see why farrell started as Lancaster wanted to keep him in because should Ford fail with either boot or ball he could go back to Farrell, with the added bonus that Ford and Farrell play together at 10-12 at Saracens. As it was Farrell was poor and has been so far and given the opposition I think it was worth having a look at the partnership.
As for the game it was simply too error strewn with the forwards not covering themselves with too much glory by spilling it far too often. Last week I thought there was a lack of zip from the forwards when taking the ball into the contact area and around the breakdown. It was almost like playing by numbers with little purpose.
That's where I see us right now. Stuck in a spiral of not knowing what to do next. Too much chopping and changing doesn't help but the right players in the right positions is a start, as is continuity and form. The centres need to be different for Australia and I'm not sure that Ford's kicking will persuade Lancaster that he should start ahead of Farrell, however well he played with the ball at hand.
We've had a difficult and disappointing autumn series to date but I stilll think that if we win we'll gain momentum quickly and will be very close to the World Cup. I'm going to stick my hea don the line here and say we'll win it.
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decided to give it a bit of time before posting.
The Brown try shows why Farrell shouldn't be at 10, he has neither the skill or vision to pulll something like that off.
Robshaw was man of the match because of his tackling and work in the loose, which is all good, we know he can do that against a weak openside, but in context with the previous 2 matches it shows that, when the opposition suits, he's a great option there but he shouldn't be the only option.
May is quick as fuck if we get the ball to him with space to run at.
Watson is the real deal, the offload for Brown was special.
Hartley and Wood should be restored for tougher games, the repalcements were ok but nothing more.
I think he'll pick the same backline next week, which will be a huge error, both centres deserve to be dropped, Eastmond and Burrell if both are fit. I get the argument about kicking but to me it's just really negative to pick an extra 10 just in case your first one fails with the boot, surely the bench is for that.
Peter - Ford and Farrell played together in age group rugby not club level (Ford plays for Bath) which doesn't really mean much. It's like saying Clark and Baker were a good pairing for Villa at all age groups so they're automatically going to good together in the first team, the step up in quality of opposition makes a big difference.
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Brilliant day today. Ionians under 12's are on a roll. Today we had Beverley won 6 tries to nil, my Lad scoring the first, a drive from the back of a ruck, taking 3 of their lads over with him.
Second game close game with Rotherham, good club well supported, but our forwards out tackled them and we won 2 tries to 1.
Third game against York, now this was a bit of a grudge match, they don't like us because we knocked them out of the cup last season. Anyway, with the run of play they scored the first try. Half time one nil. Second half was played 80% in their half. On pressing their line we managed to charge down the ball, my lad bundled 2 out of the way to fall on the ball. one all. Soon after a a quick ball from the scrum , through the backs for us to score on the wing.
Last minute a big kick from them gets a favourable bounce on our five metre line into touch. They win the lineout, then ruck and drive, almost to the line. One more drive from them, and then the ball is over the line. Is it a try, NO, three of our lads are under the ball. Ref calls 5 metre scrum, huge push from the forwards, our scrumhalf then clears into touch. Game over.
The lads deservedly elated. Next week were in the last 16 of the Yorkshire cup
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I get the impression yesterday was an experiment and I think Ford will start Saturday from what Lancaster says. I actually like Farrell and think he's been really good in the past, but he isn't playing well enough to start at the moment and he's not a centre. The centre pairing next week should be Eastmond and Burrell.
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Watching the tries there were some encouraging signs.
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Farrell should be cover on the bench for Ford and no more.
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I think it might be a bit early to say that. Ford did well, but he needs to do it over a pre-longed period.
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I think it might be a bit early to say that. Ford did well, but he needs to do it over a pre-longed period.
I meant for Saturday.
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The important thing is our tries and good moments were all where our centres had very little involvement.
The thing that frustrates me with Barritt in particular (he's not even close to international standard) is that he either runs straight into his man with no attempt to suggest he's thinking of doing anything else, or he passes so early his defender has more than enough to adjust and target the winger.
You can sum the 2nd of those up perfectly in the highlights of the 3rd try (3:04 in the video):
What does he expect Watson to do there? It's only because Watson is very clued up and very strong that he manages to get to ground and avoid the turnover, which leads to the try.
For an example of him running dead straight with no thought of doing anything else I'd need full game highlights but it was pretty clearly what he intended to do in the buildup for the 1st try and thankfully Farrell gave it back to Ford instead.
I don't mind Farrell, he's a great kicker from the tee, he's a decent tackler (but not great) and he works hard but his kicking from hand is unimaginative and inconsistent, his running game is mediocre and his game management is nothing like as good as people seem to think. A lot of people see him as a new Johnny Wilkinson but that's completely misunderstanding what made Wilkinson a great player.
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I think a lot depends upon what you want to see from a no.10?
Game management is obviously a given, but for me I want to see someone who can get the best of the backs outside him. Farrell is not in the best of form (and is also still young) but Ford offers a different threat for those lining up against him. Defensively he is probably more suspect, and his goal kicking may not be up to Farrell's standards but with ball in hand he is a better runner and more creative.
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My major frustration is that I really thought we'd moved past Barritt as an England player. There is no way on earth he should be in the side in front of Burrell and that was shown with our improvement in the 6 nations.
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watch the first 2 tries here -
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Burrell and Dickson aren't good enough to get in ahead of Wigglesworth and Barritt, really?
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Same 23 for the weekend. Been immensely frustrating to be at Twickenham the last 3 Saturday's and feel that after the improvements of the Six Nations we have regressed somewhat. Two biggest differences for me are the lack of quick ball from the rucks and the total lack of turnovers. This means our backs are getting slow ball and when we do get it, we kick it away far too much and then don't get it back.
Utterly staggering that with the likes of Eastmond, Burrell, Slade available we are picking two centres from Farrell, Barritt and Twelvetrees. Lancaster really has a blind spot in our centre department. Gives Eastmond a run with deepest lying fly half ever & then gives Ford a run with the said fly half relocating to a deep lying centre. Why not pick the two who play together every week and send Faz back to Sarries?
Anyway, off once again with hope we can turn it around and get back on track. If we keep it tight our forwards ought to ensure victory. Would like a bit of style, led by Ford though.
As a footnote, Slammin Sam May make debut for Bath on Friday. Exciting prospect!!!!!!!
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I don't get it, how can he possibly keep faith with Farrell and Barritt after 3 weeks of utter bilge, it's bordering on incompetence now.
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It seems whatever team I support in any sport that the management have massive blindspots. In the 6 nations we made real progress with Burrell in the centre and I thought we'd moved beyond Barritt. I'm absolutely gutted that we'll have him in the centre again. I like Lancaster, but this autumn has been a massive mistake. I really hope he sees sense come the 6 nations.
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What is starting to frustrate is stuff like, 'this 23 did really well last week so we've decided to give them another chance' and 'Eastmond had a chance in the first couple of games and now we're going to give someone else a chance'. Now taking away whether I consider the 23 selected did well last week; surely we're at a stage now where it's about looking at the best players. It's not about giving chances anymore or being fair to those that did well the previous week. We should be getting our best side out there week in and week out.
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What is starting to frustrate is stuff like, 'this 23 did really well last week so we've decided to give them another chance' and 'Eastmond had a chance in the first couple of games and now we're going to give someone else a chance'. Now taking away whether I consider the 23 selected did well last week; surely we're at a stage now where it's about looking at the best players. It's not about giving chances anymore or being fair to those that did well the previous week. We should be getting our best side out there week in and week out.
I have 2 problems with the idea of giving people a chance as he's suggesting here:
1. Right now Luther Burrell is the best fit centre in English rugby, it's less than a year until the world cup and we have 8 games (I think) left after this weekend, Burrell has 6 caps, I'd like most of the squad for the world cup to have 10-15 caps as a minimum so is he going to play virtually every game from here on in or are you going to decide to leave him out and pick Barritt because Barritt has 'international experience'.
2. If giving people a chance and expanding the pool of potential players is your goal why the fuck has Robshaw played 80minutes in pretty much every game for the last 3 years other than the tour of argentina where he wasn't fit? Matt Kvesic is the only alternative who's been given any time and that was 2 tests in what was largely England reserves vs Argentina reserves. It can't be 1 rule for you favourites and another for the rest.
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I agree, there is very much the feeling that there are only certain players who can be rested. I think the selection of Barritt is a legacy of the NZ tour and Lancaster has become a bit gun shy. If you look at the 6 Nations he had completely moved away from Barritt and was using Burrell, Twelvetrees and Tuilagi. Burrell had a great time and looked impressive. Suddenly after a tough tour of NZ he's gone back to safety first with Barritt in the side. I really hope he sits down after this series and realises he's making mistakes now.
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Farrell has been dropped finally. Hopefully they'll realise that Barritt is not international standard as well.
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So Bath have been training with Burgess at 12, but apparently he 'gets bored out there' and tries to get involved with the rucks. Not sure that sounds particularly good.
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So Bath have been training with Burgess at 12, but apparently he 'gets bored out there' and tries to get involved with the rucks. Not sure that sounds particularly good.
Move him to 13 and play an expansive game and he'll be fine. BOD was the same as a kid and he became the best rucking back in world rugby and won shit loads of turnover ball for Leinster and Ireland. I'm not worried about backs wanting to join in with the forwards and win the ball so long as they learn that there's a time and a place. That's why I've said all along that I don't think Burgess will be ready to go to the world cup but that he'll be something special for 2019.
As for the team, it's the best we can do with the 23 he'd picked so I'm less annoyed that I could've been but I still can't see any justification for Wigglesworth and Barritt being ahead of 2-3 other players in their positions. 3 players from the best side in the country in the 23 shows that it's not about form.
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So Bath have been training with Burgess at 12, but apparently he 'gets bored out there' and tries to get involved with the rucks. Not sure that sounds particularly good.
Move him to 13 and play an expansive game and he'll be fine. BOD was the same as a kid and he became the best rucking back in world rugby and won shit loads of turnover ball for Leinster and Ireland. I'm not worried about backs wanting to join in with the forwards and win the ball so long as they learn that there's a time and a place. That's why I've said all along that I don't think Burgess will be ready to go to the world cup but that he'll be something special for 2019.
As for the team, it's the best we can do with the 23 he'd picked so I'm less annoyed that I could've been but I still can't see any justification for Wigglesworth and Barritt being ahead of 2-3 other players in their positions. 3 players from the best side in the country in the 23 shows that it's not about form.
My fear is they're going to push for Burgess to be in the back row, which I really don't want.
As regards the team I'm the same. I'm not as disappointed as a could have been, but Barritt still being involved annoys me.
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Probably an hour or so away from Burgess making his debut, nice timing that it's live on BTsport, this could be a really interesting evening.
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brilliant half from Joseph, Eastmond and Devoto, there's some special talent in this Bath backline with them, Ford, Roko, Watson and Burgess.
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...playing against 12. If Bath were that great why are they so low in the table?
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"If we've underperformed so gravely yet have only lost by three points to the two top teams, then it'll be interesting to see what happens when we get it right."
It's snide comments like that from Tom Wood that annoy me. The points margin is irrelevant they were piss poor against those teams.
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...playing against 12. If Bath were that great why are they so low in the table?
Do you mean top of the table Bath? Quins defended well but when they went to 12 men it was poor from the ref, the latter 2 could both have been given as penalty tries without the card (the Collier one in particular, it's not often you see 3 consecutive scrum penalties on the 5yard line and it doesn't lead to a penalty try).
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This has been a very poor start
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First half was better than anything we've seen all autumn (what a shock we drop the 10 who's form is as bad as it gets and we improve) but we still lack threat in midfield and struggle to get the ball to the wingers in space, so long as that's the case we'll struggle to beat the better sides.
Lawes is man of the match by miles, I hope taking him off at 54mins doesn't mean he's out of their minds when they make the call, he's been close to perfect.
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Lawes and Morgan were excellent. I thought the game management was much much better, but our defence was absolutely shocking and there were far too many line breaks. The most important thing was winning and we can build from that. Fair play to Barritt he's extremely brave, but he's not international class. Twelvetrees was awful and Burrell and Tuilagi need to be the centre partnership for the 6 nations.
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Yes Twelvetrees didn't have a great game, got involved in the tight too much, probably trying too hard. It was a tough but well-earned victory.
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Finally I see a win at Twickenham.
An improvement for sure but quite honestly Australia were pretty poor, every time they stretched us wide they could and probably should have scored were it not for a handling error. Laws was immense, he looked shattered when he left the field, hurt physically. Billy 36 was all huff and puff but without making any real impression in the game.
The pack was well on top and really should have dominated Austraila far more in the second half, the Aussies managed to get a couple of stable scrums and get quick ball from them which stemmed the flow because England were all over it in the last 10 of the first half. A good day out, too many Guinness and a lovely sunny day sat in short sleeves on the steps of Twickenham drinking beer and eating a pie before the game watching the world go by. A very pleasant distraction from the shambles in B6.
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I think Ford's kicking is a potential problem. He missed with two kickable penalties that should have been taken at this level. Another day those misses may have been more crucial. It would be then too easy throw Farrell on and let him take over kicking duties. So, sacrficing a bit of flair for the formulaic.
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I think Ford's kicking is a potential problem. He missed with two kickable penalties that should have been taken at this level. Another day those misses may have been more crucial. It would be then too easy throw Farrell on and let him take over kicking duties. So, sacrficing a bit of flair for the formulaic.
The 2 he missed were too long for him, anything over about 40m seems to give him trouble and has eer since he broke through. His kicking from hand and understanding of space makes up for it but Farrelll on the bench to tighten the game late is perfectly viable for me. Farrell has his qualities, the problem is hasn't got that little bit of spark to turn a game and get us back on top, Ford did that 2-3 times yesterday with loving weighted kicks that May chased superbly.
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I agree. But if we have to make a change because of missed kicks and then Farrell kicks the chances to win a close game then the calls will go up again in favour of starting Farrell. But yes, as a replacement he'd be brilliant.
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I think Ford's kicking is a potential problem. He missed with two kickable penalties that should have been taken at this level. Another day those misses may have been more crucial. It would be then too easy throw Farrell on and let him take over kicking duties. So, sacrficing a bit of flair for the formulaic.
That's the one thing that concerns me about his game. I will see him in the flesh in two weeks time at Bath, but there were a few times last season Bath failed to put points on the board when on top due to him have a bad day with the boot.
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You could also argue it is his superior game management that gets the team into a position to win the penalties.
I said before, Ford could win a world cup, but could also see us out early on.
Farrell could get us to the final, but does he have that extra to get the back line going?
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For me you can carry Farrell if you have a genius in the centres. I'll reuse the wilkinson comparison aside from the fact that JW was streets ahead in terms of game management the reason he could get away with not having a fantastic running game is we had Greenwood in the centres who was a special talent. Picking Farrell and then selecting brawn outside him makes us utterly flat.
I can't see us not making the semi-final regardless, our pack is exceptional (they've been competitive in all 4 games despite 3 of the 'best' front 5 missing, and 3 understudies also out) and will beat anyone other than NZ and SA on their own.
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I think Ford's kicking is a potential problem. He missed with two kickable penalties that should have been taken at this level. Another day those misses may have been more crucial. It would be then too easy throw Farrell on and let him take over kicking duties. So, sacrficing a bit of flair for the formulaic.
That's the one thing that concerns me about his game. I will see him in the flesh in two weeks time at Bath, but there were a few times last season Bath failed to put points on the board when on top due to him have a bad day with the boot.
I'd pray for a dry day if I were you, the facilities in that temporary ground are extremely poor.
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I know, I've been a few times before. I have am behind the sticks on the Thatchers Terrace which is standing so the rainmack is on standby.
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Given the fuss that the RFU make about the facilities that promoted clubs must have in order to compete at the top level its wrong that Bath are allowed to get away with basically putting down a few deck-chairs on a park each season.
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The rules aren't that strict and 'a few deck chairs on a park' is a rather misleading statement. Given the temporary seating passes all relevant safety checks and their capacity is well over the minimum set by the league it would be rather harsh to kick them out of the league because of it. Aside from that given the ongoing legal shenanigans about the ground (a land swap between space the club uses and their training ground has been on the cards for about 6-7years but is being slowed down by silliness from a small number of residents) any attempt by the premiership to force action would likely see a legal challenge.
I've only ever seen comments about the seating from glaws fans so it's always felt a little like just wanting Bath to get one in the eye rather than any legitimate concern about safety or rules.
I like the rec as a ground, like kingsholm and the gardens it has a rugby 'feel' to it that the rest of the clubs I've been too just don't have (I haven't been to the new Sarries stadium but I reckon I'd dislike that more than the rest put together, welford road used to be good but I hate the new stand).
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If you look at England this autumn I would say 6 players have enhanced their reputation. For me personally they'd be May, Ford, Morgan, Marler, Attwood and Lawes. In Lawes case he's more confirmed his status.
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The rules aren't that strict and 'a few deck chairs on a park' is a rather misleading statement. Given the temporary seating passes all relevant safety checks and their capacity is well over the minimum set by the league it would be rather harsh to kick them out of the league because of it. Aside from that given the ongoing legal shenanigans about the ground (a land swap between space the club uses and their training ground has been on the cards for about 6-7years but is being slowed down by silliness from a small number of residents) any attempt by the premiership to force action would likely see a legal challenge.
I've only ever seen comments about the seating from glaws fans so it's always felt a little like just wanting Bath to get one in the eye rather than any legitimate concern about safety or rules.
I like the rec as a ground, like kingsholm and the gardens it has a rugby 'feel' to it that the rest of the clubs I've been too just don't have (I haven't been to the new Sarries stadium but I reckon I'd dislike that more than the rest put together, welford road used to be good but I hate the new stand).
Theres a primary tenancy rule isn't there. Not sure now but the area was owned by the local council - that's how small time they are, most standing areas are uncovered and the toilets are inadequate for the number of people there. No atmosphere either, to compare it to Kingsholm of Franklins Gardens, proper rugby grounds, is misjudged in my opinion.
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Given the fuss that the RFU make about the facilities that promoted clubs must have in order to compete at the top level its wrong that Bath are allowed to get away with basically putting down a few deck-chairs on a park each season.
It's not that bad. If Bruce Craig had his way things would be much better but they are having problems with the planning permission. Plus, the surrounding area is wonderfully scenic.
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If you look at England this autumn I would say 6 players have enhanced their reputation. For me personally they'd be May, Ford, Morgan, Marler, Attwood and Lawes. In Lawes case he's more confirmed his status.
It frustrates me that Lawes isn't discussed for player of the year awards but Brodie Rettalick is, there's nothing between the 2 for me and they're easily the 2 best locks in world rugby, but because England haven't won every game Lawes' value seems to be understated.
I agree with you on the others.
I'd also suggest that Farrell, Barritt, Brown, Robshaw and Vunipola have had a very disappointing autumn on the back of very poor club form for all of them (would've thought that players who are out of form for their clubs aren't the best choices for international games, craziness).
lovejoy - as I said the rules are odd, primary tenancy isn't a requirement (Irish, Sarries and Wasps have all played in football stadiums they had no share in for years, Sale ground share with Salford Reds and wouldn't be considered primary tenants, London Welsh are in a really odd arrangement with Oxford) for existing arrangements but the clubs have to own a percentage of any new grounds, which is where all the issues around admitting Welsh came in. I personally like the rec, it feels like a proper rugby ground, that's what i meant when I compared it kingsholm and the gardens, it has a real history, they've played there for 150 years, I'd be gutted as a sports fan in general if they had to move because of something silly like temporary seating which is why I hope that everything get resolved sensibly. To set an expectation a little better I've only been to the rec twice and both times I was in one of the sponsors boxes so my thoughts on the palce are very much tailored around how it looks and feels from the balcony rather than standing/sitting with the peasants... :D (the president of my old club was a big Bath fan and he used to sponsor them 1-2 games a season and arrange a coach to go down for the game).
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Vunipola B just looks tubby to be honest.
I also think Brown had a poor Autumn.
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If you look at England this autumn I would say 6 players have enhanced their reputation. For me personally they'd be May, Ford, Morgan, Marler, Attwood and Lawes. In Lawes case he's more confirmed his status.
It frustrates me that Lawes isn't discussed for player of the year awards but Brodie Rettalick is, there's nothing between the 2 for me and they're easily the 2 best locks in world rugby, but because England haven't won every game Lawes' value seems to be understated.
I agree with you on the others.
I'd also suggest that Farrell, Barritt, Brown, Robshaw and Vunipola have had a very disappointing autumn on the back of very poor club form for all of them (would've thought that players who are out of form for their clubs aren't the best choices for international games, craziness).
lovejoy - as I said the rules are odd, primary tenancy isn't a requirement (Irish, Sarries and Wasps have all played in football stadiums they had no share in for years, Sale ground share with Salford Reds and wouldn't be considered primary tenants, London Welsh are in a really odd arrangement with Oxford) for existing arrangements but the clubs have to own a percentage of any new grounds, which is where all the issues around admitting Welsh came in. I personally like the rec, it feels like a proper rugby ground, that's what i meant when I compared it kingsholm and the gardens, it has a real history, they've played there for 150 years, I'd be gutted as a sports fan in general if they had to move because of something silly like temporary seating which is why I hope that everything get resolved sensibly. To set an expectation a little better I've only been to the rec twice and both times I was in one of the sponsors boxes so my thoughts on the palce are very much tailored around how it looks and feels from the balcony rather than standing/sitting with the peasants... :D (the president of my old club was a big Bath fan and he used to sponsor them 1-2 games a season and arrange a coach to go down for the game).
Oi less of the peasants! But, well put, it has a real feel to the place which has a history. It would be a shame to move to a identikit stadium and lose more sporting heritage.
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Vunipola B just looks tubby to be honest.
I also think Brown had a poor Autumn.
Billy V really needs to sort himself out he was desperately poor. Brown was also way below par.
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Vunipola B just looks tubby to be honest.
I also think Brown had a poor Autumn.
I agree, Vuniploa hasn't looked fully fit all season, maybe his brother being out has affected his training (sounds stupid but from the Clare Balding thing a few weeks ago it was pretty clear that Mako holds a lot of sway with him, if Mako is struggling with being entirely professional whilst injured maybe Billy is being carreid along with it). Of course it could be nothing like that but he definitely needs to look at his conditioning, Morgan has worked really hard to get back into it and Billy needs to show the same determination to get the spot back.
I'm not sure what's going on with Brown, but I reckon it's related to the general malaise at Quins. They've been dreadful this year with both Sarries and Exeter humiliating them with big, simple wins and Bath demolishing them without really getting the points on the board to show just how big a defeat it was.
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Saints play Treviso this weekend and have picked (largely because of the internationals coming back) the strongest bench I've ever seen in a club game.
Replacements
16 Dylan HARTLEY
17 Ethan WALLER
18 Gareth DENMAN
19 Courtney LAWES
20 Tom WOOD
21 Kahn FOTUALI’I
22 George PISI
23 James WILSON
That is why they're the team to beat in the England this season.
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The Toulon bench in last years HC final wasn't too shabby
HK 16 Jean-Charles Orioli Substituted in 50'
PR 17 Gethin Jenkins Substituted in 61'
PR 18 Davit Kubriashvili Substituted in 76'
N8 19 Joe van Niekerk Substituted in 50'
FL 20 Steffon Armitage Substituted in 69'
CE 21 Maxime Mermoz
FH 22 Frédéric Michalak Substituted in 50'
LK 23 Jocelino Suta Substituted in 6
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Good half from Bath, a 5 point win here gives them the slimmest imaginable hope of squeezing through so I suspect they'll throw everything at getting the last 2 tries as quickly as they can.
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Good half from Bath, a 5 point win here gives them the slimmest imaginable hope of squeezing through so I suspect they'll throw everything at getting the last 2 tries as quickly as they can.
Poor 2nd half really. Scored a genuine wonder try (if you haven't seen it I recommend finding the highlights, truly exceptional play from Ford and Thomas given the conditions) and then made 5 changes all at once and completely lost their way after being totally dominant at the scrum and line out, Mike Ford must regret that decision.
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Good half from Bath, a 5 point win here gives them the slimmest imaginable hope of squeezing through so I suspect they'll throw everything at getting the last 2 tries as quickly as they can.
I saw the try. It was incredible considering the conditions. Ford's dummy and then the offload were awesome. I'd love to see some of that in an England shirt.
Poor 2nd half really. Scored a genuine wonder try (if you haven't seen it I recommend finding the highlights, truly exceptional play from Ford and Thomas given the conditions) and then made 5 changes all at once and completely lost their way after being totally dominant at the scrum and line out, Mike Ford must regret that decision.
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Until Burgess learns how to tackle properly, I wouldn't have him in the Bath squad, let alone in the England squad
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Until Burgess learns how to tackle properly, I wouldn't have him in the Bath squad, let alone in the England squad
His tackling was always my concern, the high shoulder hits he did in league were fine but in union he's going to get himself in trouble, On top of that he doesn#t seem to know what to do with himself just yet, there's clearly lots of talent there but it's a steep learning curve for him to learn how to use that in this game in the 6-7 months he's got if he stands a chance of the world cup, seems too tight for me. On a related note Burrell was superb for Northampton as was Stephenson who looks a great talent.
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Better from Burgess this week, still struggling to get into the right positions in attack but he's been superb in defence.
Watson is such a class act, brilliant hands, great acceleration, low centre of gravity, he's really got it all to be a truly top drawer back (anything from inside centre out). Watching the 'matador' act he pulls when the big hitters line him up is awesome, and incredibly effective.
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Big big game today, hopefully Glos are up for it and we can send them down the A38 with their tails between their legs.
On paper they look stronger.
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Brilliant day for rugby fans today, saints vs tigers followed by glaws vs bath 2 of the best games of the season back to back, should be good.
On other rugby matters, gutted that Launchbury is still out and if Cipriani keeps playing like he did last night he will have to be selected for the 6N, he was superb.
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Luther Burrell has to start for England......he was superb today.
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Luther Burrell has to start for England......he was superb today.
He's easily the best centre in the country and yes he was superb today, as were most of the side. It's a fantastic result for saints, any side that wins having played over an hour with 14 men have been very good.
Alex Waller was also very good. He had a tough first half in the scrum but 2nd half he stepped up brilliantly. Finally I'm becoming more and more convinced that Lawes is the best player in the world right now, immense again today.
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It was a great game, and for my money Hartley got what he deserved.
The thing about Burrell is that he runs such straight lines.....it must be fun playing outside him.
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It was a great game, and for my money Hartley got what he deserved.
The thing about Burrell is that he runs such straight lines.....it must be fun playing outside him.
I didn't see the sending off so can't comment on it, sounds like Hartley letting his aggression overcome him again. It's frustrating but that's what makes him a great hooker, I just wish he didn't do against Leicester so often though.
Burrell I sort of agree, he's good because he picks his line and then runs it full out, usually his line is one that either encounters a weak shoulder or commits 2-3 defenders but then the important bit is that he doesn't often let the ball get slowed down so the team benefit from the momentum, there's no other centre in England who can do that so well and so consistently. Right now he'd be the first back on the list for me.
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Burrell should definitely be starting for England.
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Watson has just put in a belting performance against Exeter, made the best part of 100m and made a couple of Exeter players look like complete mugs. Coming together for England now so long as Lancaster has the conviction to let the backs play some rugby.
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Watson has just put in a belting performance against Exeter, made the best part of 100m and made a couple of Exeter players look like complete mugs. Coming together for England now so long as Lancaster has the conviction to let the backs play some rugby.
This world cup or next?
I must admit I look at our squad depth and talent and think that it might be Lancaster's tactics holding the players back. Ironic as when he came in his man management and strong convictions seemed to be a massive strength however, at the moment, it might even be our weakness. If he would just release the handbrake a bit...
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Tough question, allow the backs some more freedom and pick the right 'set' and we can certainly make the 2015 world cup a 3 horse race. 2019 should be ours, the young talent coming through now will be established players by then and it should make us special. Robson, Daly, Devoto and Stephenson will all be in or around the squad within a year after the world cup and will bring us genuine depth at 9, 12 and 13 to go with the depth we have elsewhere.
The key thing is we don't have many (or more likely any) in the squad who will be retiring after 2015, which will help with the continuity.
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I watched the Glaaaaaaaaaaaarster Wasps game today whilst keeping half an eye on the Villa game, fair play to Andy Goode, 34 years of age still putting his body on the line for Wasps, top bloke.
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Anyone feel sorry for Jonny Wilkinson?
I do. I don't think you'll find a humbler sportsman and he seems to have fallen foul of a tabloid hoax which is a shame.
When I heard I did think it strange that only one member of the 2003 squad were being honoured in this way; I'm sure they all picked up something in the afterglow of 2003 so why single out Jonny now?
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Great game between Northampton and Newcastle last night, Newcastle would've beaten any other side in the league with that performance, just unlucky to be facing the best side in the league for whom Foden and Clark were superb and both are right in the mix for the England squad.
Strettle scored twice for Sarries (against London Irish who are so poor they must be incredibly grateful London Welsh exist) so expect to see calls for him to get a call-up despite the fact that he's proven repeatedly that he's not good enough at international level.
Finally brilliant win for Glaws away at Exeter, Kvesic was very good and really needs to be given a chance for England.
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Slight robbery by Glos there, but an away win is an away win. Hook is no longer a fly half and not sure about Sharples at fullback but the back row were immense. Next week? Only Saracens.
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Saracens are not currently performing as well as previous seasons (according to Saracens supporting colleagues).
With regards to the Saints v Newcastle game, I read that 9 of the Falcons team where home-grown and also a few of the saints players had come through the falcons academy too. In fact both clubs have excellent youth structures in place and are a credit to English rugby.
There were some cracking tries. For anyone who is interested BT Sport have highlights of all games on their website so easy to catch up on the weekend's action.
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Saracens are not currently performing as well as previous seasons (according to Saracens supporting colleagues).
With regards to the Saints v Newcastle game, I read that 9 of the Falcons team where home-grown and also a few of the saints players had come through the falcons academy too. In fact both clubs have excellent youth structures in place and are a credit to English rugby.
There were some cracking tries. For anyone who is interested BT Sport have highlights of all games on their website so easy to catch up on the weekend's action.
Sarries are missing the leadership of Borthwick, when teams put them under pressure they look a bit rudderless this year.
Newcastle will have agood side if they can keep a big chunk of this squad together, I think Brookes has peaked a bit early for them and will probably leave in the summer (saints look like the likely destination given Ma'afu is seemingly on his way to Toulon) but the rest of their squad seem to be progressing nicely.
Saints have a great youth system, there's 6-7 great young players there who are on the verge of breaking through, Collins and Stephenson are probably front of the queue at the minute but I fully expect Marshall (hooker), Hobbs-Awoyami (Prop), Olver (fly half) and Packman (wing) to break through over the next year or 2. Given they've already brought through Lawes (best 2nd row in the world in my opinion), the Waller brothers and Jamie Elliott since they got relegated in 2007 (as well as a few older guys like Myler) they're definitely doing a good job but then they have a knack of picking up players who are solid but unspectacular and making them superstars (Foden, Clark, Wood, Dickson, Burrell, Manoa) which means they can afford to go all out and sign the odd gem like North and Corbs, they're a genuinely brilliantly run club who have created the best squad in the league over the last 6 years.
Regarding the tries Myler's is a masterpiece that should be shown to any youth side as an example of how to counter-attack in broken field play, the running lines with and without the ball from the entire backline are just fantastic. Burrell's try takes some real skill to pull the ball in with a trailing leg and control it well enough to make the finish simple. Newcastle scored a couple of fantastic push over tries from the lineout but I think the 2nd at least came a result of hurt pride. Saints thought they could overpower the drive and committed men to doing just that. After it didn't work the first time they should've just taken the men away so the ref called maul over then they'd have been free to come round the sides and tackle the ball, English teams tend to get a bit macho about those drives and don't like to force the maul to end early, it's something we really need to adopt.
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The chap who sits next to me at work used to play with Tom Stephenson for Buckingham, "yeah, I'm not surprised he is doing well as he was always quite good as a kid".
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Great bottle shown by Gloucester to win tonight, we are usually strong under the Friday night lights. Don't understands ow Kruis doesn't get a red card for taking the tackled player beyond the horizontal, with intent. It's the inconsistency which is so frustrating. Luckily justice was served with the late kick from Hook who missed some sitters otherwise.
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Great bottle shown by Gloucester to win tonight, we are usually strong under the Friday night lights. Don't understands ow Kruis doesn't get a red card for taking the tackled player beyond the horizontal, with intent. It's the inconsistency which is so frustrating. Luckily justice was served with the late kick from Hook who missed some sitters otherwise.
Brilliant win, Robson's try was superb. Looks like Morgan is going to be out for a while though and I'm not entirely sure what Wood did but it sounds like it's nothing too serious.
I agree on Kruis, that was a stonewall red card, I can't see any justification in it being just a yellow, it was an awful tackle. I also thought the yellow for May was totally uncalled for, aside from the fact that it was borderline whether he actually did anything wrong (I think the maul was over tbh) to give someone a yellow immediately after a 10-15minute delay in the game for a technical offence is just bad game management for me.
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Great game of rugby tonight.
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Stick on red for Kruis and I thought we had screwed it up with some botched chances and leaving lots of points out there off the tee. Two big wins the last couple of weeks.
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Newcastle will have a good side if they can keep a big chunk of this squad together, I think Brookes has peaked a bit early for them and will probably leave in the summer (saints look like the likely destination given Ma'afu is seemingly on his way to Toulon) but the rest of their squad seem to be progressing nicely.
Brookes is now confirmed as joining saints next year, that will be good for him, he's right on the edge of the England squad, I can't see him making the world cup but 2016 6N I think we might see him and Thomas fighting out for a place on the bench behind Cole or maybe even looking at the starting spots if Cole can't get/stay fit. I'd be very surprised if Wilson stays after the world cup.
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Anyone know how or in particular who, is progressing from the youths - or under 21s or something - that won the World Cup last year?
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From 2014
Maro Itoje (the captain and 2nd row) has had a few appearances for Sarries, he's going to be a brilliant player, probably the most exciting young forward I've ever seen, he's a step on again from Lawes in terms of a 'back-row lock' not as aggressive in defence but a superb ball carrier.
Billy Burns (fly half) seems to be firmly established as the gloucester backup 10 and has looked good when he's played, slightly more controlled than his brother.
Henry Purdy (Centre) moved to Gloucester in the summer and has had a fair few appearances, looks decent but I don't think he's international class.
Ross Moriaty has had a few appearances form Gloucester but it's too early to tell where he's at.
I don't think many of the others have had more than 1-2 cameos so it's too early to judge, I think another 12-18months and we'll see a few more come through. The 2013 side is interesting though, from the final:
England: Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs); Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Harry Sloan (Harlequins), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Howard (Worcester Warriors); Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Alex Day (Northampton Saints); Alec Hepburn (London Wasps), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Scott Wilson (Newcastle Falcons); Tom Price (Leicester Tigers), Dominic Barrow (Leeds Carnegie), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester Rugby), Matt Hankin (Saracens), Jack Clifford (Harlequins) (capt).
Replacements: Scott Spurling (Saracens), Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi (Northampton Saints), Tom Smallbone (London Irish), Harry Wells (Leicester Tigers), David Sisi (Bath Rugby), Callum Braley (Bristol Rugby), Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby), Henry Purdy (Leicester Tigers).
So you've got Nowell and Watson who are full internationals and both look at home. Slade (In my opinion Exeters player of the season), Cowan-Dickie and Clifford (in my opinion Quins player of the season) all on the cusp of the squad and Devoto and Hobbs-Awoyemi who look top class but happen to be at the back of probably the strongest areas of the squad for their respective sides. So in all likelihood we'll see 6-7 of that squad capped as full internationals before too long, that's a hugely impressive conversion rate.
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So Glos seems to be the best breeding ground for young players to come through and get a game from that analysis.
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And exeter
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Watched the Gloucester vs Wasps game over the Xmas period and the very few games I have seen Twelvetrees play I genuinely cannot see that he is an international player. During the Wasps game there were a huge gaps in the midfield. Jonny May on the other hand really did look the business. Off to watch the game tomorrow too against Oyonnax.....love the atmosphere and social drinking environment at the rugby but unlike football there is a vast difference between international and club standard.
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.....love the atmosphere and social drinking environment at the rugby but unlike football there is a vast difference between international and club standard.
Agree with that, it a completely different experience to football, less charged by (fake?) emotion yet enjoyable for different reasons.
With regards to the jump in standards I cannot disagree however the Heineken cup (forgot the new name) is probably almost comparable. However, I'm not sure that this is a bad thing. Rugby clubs operate within a salary cap and consequently seem to positively encourage youth development and coaching of players. I even see the robbing of players during the international breaks as a good thing nowadays as it again encourages/forces the clubs to play their younger players.
As ever football could learn a lot from rugby, but Woodward's treatment at Southampton suggest that football not ready for this.
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Massive win for Bath away in Toulouse, Joseph was pure electric, the 4th try is one of the best you'll ever see.
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I just watched ospreys v saints and the commentators were talking about the Eng centre partnership (with reference to Burrell) and they said Joseph on current form would be in contention for a starting spot in any team in the world. I might have to stay up and watch the re-run of the Bath match...
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I just watched ospreys v saints and the commentators were talking about the Eng centre partnership (with reference to Burrell) and they said Joseph on current form would be in contention for a starting spot in any team in the world. I might have to stay up and watch the re-run of the Bath match...
Do, if only for the 4th try, it's an absolute worldy (the other 3 are pretty damn good as well) and I agree with them, Joseph is probably the best centre in europe right now, and very possibly the best in the world, him and Burrell have to be given a chance in the 6N.
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Only one team left in Europe with a 100% record.
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Lawes out for start of 6 nations. Another critical blow.
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Cheers paul e...
Not that fussed with them missing the 6 nations as its all about being ready for the World Cup. Which i still think we'll win.
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The concern is that we never can get our first choice team out and I think that is making Lancaster more conservative. Just look how we were progressing last 6 Nations. Since then we've had injuries and other issues and he's going back into his shell.
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I've been waiting to post this for a while
take a bow JJ, that's fucking immense.
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I'm not convinced that his likely team for the wales game would beat the Saxons:
Saxons squad:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10801669_10152742351964825_8846364602935856028_n.jpg?oh=8f5fafc401878f6438b257ebd79b2bf5&oe=556D612D&__gda__=1428444987_2fc519a3531126185c7abab78b940bab)
Full squad:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10931726_10152742339284825_1473604570176854836_n.jpg?oh=461bd467ed5b772bfa64228826849a47&oe=5562DC42&__gda__=1432335383_16890e0a22f84e52cbf8afa917ad24fb)
Waller Cowan-Dickie Brookes
Day Itoje
Croft Waldrom Kvesic
Dickson
Slade
Wade Burgess Devoto Ashton
Daly
Subs: Mullen, Webber, Thomas, Ewers, Garvey, Simpson, Yarde, Pennell
That's a very good, mostly young, side and has a lot more pace than the main squad.
Barritt, Wigglesworth, Goode, Twelvetrees, Wilson, Kruis and Easter are all very iffy selections for me, the only 1 in genuinely good form is Easter but at 36 I don't really see the point of recalling him, he's not going to get in ahead of Billy V and Morgan so we've got a 36 year old taking up the 3rd choice spot, maybe going to world cup and getting a game in an easy group match and then retiring, it seems pointless to me.
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Easter shouldn't have been recalled. I'm horrified still to see Goode in the squad. On the plus side I doubt either will get near the team. I just really wish we'd give Wade a shot in the senior squad. Also isn't it a bit odd that Rokoduguni is in neither squad?
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Northampton looking very average (except their defence) versus Racing Metro. The Welsh players Robert's and North have looked good/okay but not much from Burrell by comparison.
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Northampton just looked off their game, across the board, the pack were terrible. Worst performance from Saints for about 2 years, really frustrating that it's come in a game where they could've really put downa marker in europe and they've now left themselves with a tough away game for the QF.
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I think Burrell showed today against Roberts why he shouldn't be in the England team against Wales in a few weeks. Also Hartley is talented but frankly a mental liability on the pitch.
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I've no problem with easter being recalled. As said he isn't ahead of Morgan or Vunipola but being in form he seems to be just a filler whilst injuries hopefully clear up. No point sticking someone else in their who may be considered a bit of a risk.
As for the Joseph try he did brilliantly well but, I think why I can't get over excited about it is that the ball bounced kindly for him which took the first defender out, he did well from there with the hitch kick to get a way from the full-back and don't get me wrong he turned nothing into something. but, without a very kind bounce it would have just been possession surrendered in a tricky place for a potential immediate counter attack.
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I think Burrell showed today against Roberts why he shouldn't be in the England team against Wales in a few weeks. Also Hartley is talented but frankly a mental liability on the pitch.
Are you slating Hartley for his yellow today? Have you even seen it? It was a professional foul of the likes that I'd expect anyone to make in that situation, a real 'taking one for the team' moment. There's nothing in that was a liability, he probably saved a try.
I'm not sure what it says about Burrell or Roberts other than 1 was behind a pack that was dominating and the other wasn't. The lack of field position, and poor handling when they did get anywhere was across the whole team, it's almost like they heard the results from the other games, knew they were qulified and just took their eyes off the ball, it was a totally un-saintslike performance.
peter - the JJ try does have a slightly luck bounce but that's why he's so important for England, 1-10 we're painfully predictable most of the time, a 13 who's willin gto take a risk is worth his weight on gold to us.
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Not a comment on him today but more generally. England will lose a tight match if they have to play with 14 men due to his lack of discipline.
I must say I was shocked how poor Saints and Leicester were today. Both properly stuffed. Big challenge for as arrives later as well.
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Paul I think that's more of a reflection on what has been in the centre rather than Joseph's ability and in particular this try. In all honesty i really hardly know anything about him so I'm in no position to comment. But if the ball bounces into the defenders hands for the 3rd, 4th, 5th time in a row he'd be called wasteful rather than exciting. The fine lines and all that I suppose.
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I really hope we're getting our injuries out of the way before the World Cup, because we are getting decimated.
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Not a comment on him today but more generally. England will lose a tight match if they have to play with 14 men due to his lack of discipline.
I must say I was shocked how poor Saints and Leicester were today. Both properly stuffed. Big challenge for as arrives later as well.
A bloke at work who has a saints season ticket said, quite rightly, that the top players and teams play right on the edge of the laws. That "edge" is where tight games are won and lost. McCaw is a great example of this. That's why I like Hartley, he plays the game to it's limits, which is quite a rare commodity in the current England team.
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Farrell out for the 6N so hopefully thats the chance for Ford and Cips to fight it out for the shirt. I like Myler but those 2 have got to be ahead of him given their respective seasons.
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I agree. 4 more players confirmed as out for the Wales game. It's really frustrating that we're being so hamstrung by injuries. I hope he goes with Burrell and Joseph in the centre now. I'd also like to see Croft in the second row.
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I agree. 4 more players confirmed as out for the Wales game. It's really frustrating that we're being so hamstrung by injuries. I hope he goes with Burrell and Joseph in the centre now. I'd also like to see Croft in the second row.
It's more than just hamstring injuries, shoulder, leg, everything.
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I really fear for us on Friday, we are potential really understrength.
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Decent match day squad other than Wigglesworth. I'm glad Cipriani is in there.
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nice of them to move the England v Wales game to Friday do that it doesnt clash with Lydney's vital game away at Launceston
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Decent match day squad other than Wigglesworth. I'm glad Cipriani is in there.
Wigglesworth was a given once Dickson started last week and I'm happier with him and youngs as a pair than with Care and Youngs because I don't like having 2 9s who are both weak at passing from the floor and generating quick ball.
I think it's about the best squad we could pick and I'm very happy to see Brookes in there, I think he could have a massive impact for us, after Tigers tried their hardest to ruin him he's got back to his best and has had an excellent season in a very poor side. The only player I'm not happy with is Twelvetrees but given Barritt was a viable alternative I'm ok with it.
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Looking at the starting 15 I'm pretty happy with it. The backline looks genuinely exciting and it'll be really interesting to see Burrell and Joseph together.
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yeah, happy with that, twelvetrees starting was my only concern from the squad so I'm glad he's gone for the more progressive option.
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I'm really hoping that Cipriani can perform in the 6 Nations and force his way into the side/squad.
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Pressure is on Wales to perform Friday, England have done well in backs to the walls encounters, I fancy a much close game than the Welsh think its going to be.
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I always preferred, and still do, Cipriani as a full back. But anyway.
Can someone also tell me why England always insist on the stand-off taking penalties? Even if there is a better kicker at centre or full back? in the autumn we had Ford on at 10 and Farrell in the centre, but Ford still taking the kicks at goal, despite his goal kicking being inferior (from what I've seen anyway).
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Pleased they have picked the right partnership at Centre.
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I always preferred, and still do, Cipriani as a full back. But anyway.
Can someone also tell me why England always insist on the stand-off taking penalties? Even if there is a better kicker at centre or full back? in the autumn we had Ford on at 10 and Farrell in the centre, but Ford still taking the kicks at goal, despite his goal kicking being inferior (from what I've seen anyway).
First one, I disagree completely, If he gets some time at 10 with Burrell at 12 we should see exactly why he's the best attacking 10 in europe, he's so sharp with ball in hand that he draws defenders out of place by a yard or 2 which creates loads of space for his 12 to attack. It's mainly because he's got really quick hands and can pass superbly off either and he carries in 2 hands so he's pretty much always an instant away from a pass which leaves defenders on edge, and add his burst of pace it's a very dangerous combination. If he hadn't gone off the rails as a 20 year old he'd be comfortably regarded as the best 10 in the world now.
10 kicking is largely a confidence thing. At most levels the 10 tends to get the spot because they can kick, which makes it a big part of the game for them, not letting them kick can really damage their game, I fully support it.
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I'm nervous about the game tonight, but quite excited as well. If we had Launchbury, Lawes and Wood I'd be pretty happy with this team. I think that Ford and Cipriani are a great fly half pairing and I'm excited to see what our backline can do. It's just worrying that we might be overpowered by Wales' physical game.
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I'm nervous about the game tonight, but quite excited as well. If we had Launchbury, Lawes and Wood I'd be pretty happy with this team. I think that Ford and Cipriani are a great fly half pairing and I'm excited to see what our backline can do. It's just worrying that we might be overpowered by Wales' physical game.
I'd be happy with Wood and one or the other of the 2nd rows, Attwood is fine, it's Kruis that worries me, he's the only player I'm not happy with in the 15. I'd have liked to see a genuine 2nd row on the bench but I can understand why they've gone as they have and I think croft might have to look at switching to there if he wants to make squads going forward, he needs to get stronger but with Billy at 8 we can sacrifice a bit of grunt for the extra mobility.
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I like Croft and I think versatility could be a big plus for him, covering a few positions is very useful.
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I'm not nervous at all for tonight. The pressure is on Wales not us. Naming their side early only adds that. England were always going to be under strength and always going to be blooding lesser experienced players. Wales naming their side early now makes them have to produce. England have got nothing to lose and can try and play their more expansive game. Lose by 20 and everyone will say it was expected and we'll learn from it. Lose by 10 or less and the plaudits will go to England and questions will be posed of the Welsh. I don't know who will win but I wouldn't be surprised if we did. the back line looks very dynamic and one that will take the game to Wales. If the defend well we'll win because whichever pack we put on show will always be up to the job.
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The key tonight is to get Billy V, Haskell and Robshaw carrying around the fringes early and effectively. However good Wales think their backline is they don't want to leave JJ, Brown, May and Watson with any space or we'll tear them to pieces, if they have to constantly worry about the fringe the spaces will open up for Burrell and Ford and both of them are great at picking lines right through those gaps at pace.
On top of that if things are close at the hour and it comes down to the benches I'd back ours, Brookes, Mako, Youngs, Croft and Cipriani offer some serious dynamism off the bench, they're all great ball carriers, all have good skills and they're all very quick for their respective positions. If we had Morgan, Manu and Simpson instead of Easter, 12trees and Wigglesworth it would be around about the greatest bench ever assembled, 8 genuine game changers there.
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I support that thinking Peter, but this year is a bit different. England can't afford to lose heavily really and we need to perform.
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The key tonight is to get Billy V, Haskell and Robshaw carrying around the fringes early and effectively. However good Wales think their backline is they don't want to leave JJ, Brown, May and Watson with any space or we'll tear them to pieces, if they have to constantly worry about the fringe the spaces will open up for Burrell and Ford and both of them are great at picking lines right through those gaps at pace.
On top of that if things are close at the hour and it comes down to the benches I'd back ours, Brookes, Mako, Youngs, Croft and Cipriani offer some serious dynamism off the bench, they're all great ball carriers, all have good skills and they're all very quick for their respective positions. If we had Morgan, Manu and Simpson instead of Easter, 12trees and Wigglesworth it would be around about the greatest bench ever assembled, 8 genuine game changers there.
Yep it's why I'm quite excited. I think through injuries we've actually come across a seriously dynamic backline.
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I love the way Welsh are moaning and calling us cheats,bring it on.
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Yet another reason why I'm desperate for us to win. I know we always get labelled this way, but I think the Welsh are comfortably the most arrogant team.
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I'm not nervous at all for tonight. The pressure is on Wales not us.
this is it for me and I am looking forward to the game :)
UTV
The Doc
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It's a strange feeling, actual excitement before a game. Cmon!
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It's a strange feeling, actual excitement before a game. Cmon!
First timein 2015 I've been genuinely excited about watching a game in any sport, a few European games with Bath and Saints I was looking forward to but I really want this 10/centre grouping to work, I've been calling for it for about 18 months (I've flitted between eastmond and JJ at 13 but ford inside Burrell has been my 10 and 12 for ages).
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Not a great start. A few basic errors.
They might be nervous. Understandable really. It needs a big hit, or something, to get them into the game.
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that shouldn't stand, that's handling in the scrum, poor refereeing.
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10-0 after 10. Wales look very decent so far.
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Got to say, that's great #8 work.
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that shouldn't stand, that's handling in the scrum, poor refereeing.
didn't see that. What happened?
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that shouldn't stand, that's handling in the scrum, poor refereeing.
didn't see that. What happened?
England pushing the scrum back, ball still in the corridor and their 8 reaches in and grabs it, which isn't legal.
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brilliant hands from burrell for the try and it was a great finish.
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England are being expansive too early. With these backs we can be a bit conservative, wait until we're on the front foot, then take risks.
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being forced into it by the welsh really, they're trying to kill the ball in the contact by holding the tackler in there so we get no space, so we committing wide at the slightest sniff.
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Good first half, some poor penalties given away, a few bit of imprecision and a smattering of weak refereeing going with the crowd but England still right in it and we've got a lot more impact to come off the bench so this is still wide open, next score is important though.
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England's handling is crap at times
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Wales are missing Adam Jones. I think that he had one more year in him at international level
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JJ you little beauty, brilliant feet and upper body strength.
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Good intensity from England start of this half.
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Come on England. Missed opportunity with the last penalty...hope we don't rue that chance.....
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Come on England. Missed opportunity with the last penalty...hope we don't rue that chance.....
It was right on the edge of Ford's range, he can handle about 40m before he struggles.
definite yellow, intentional knock-on to stop a try.
Good time to take the lead, I reckon we might see cips soon.
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Shame England haven't been able to get more ball in the Wales 22 while they are down to 14.
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Thought Business Burrell could have gone on himself here.
Mike Brown not quite at the races this game.
Agree as well with SCW that England's subs completely smack of pre-programming, and not based on the game situation.
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Brown has been poor, he's the only back who's dissappointed me, he's also the only one who wasn't in form for his club last month, go figure.
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Superb victory, well deserved.
Burrell and Watson were top class and JJ showed why he's a genius, he's our belated Greenwood replacement.
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Mighty second half there from England. Really impressed me.
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What impressed me was the intelligence, first half Wales were getting all over the ball on the floor and really disrupting us so we switched to an offloading game (led by Burrell) and demolished them.
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Fantastic performance we were the much better side and had the ref been better we would have won by more.
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Brilliant, loved it, even more so because you know how much it means to that lot over the border and how much they hate us too. Could have done without all that ridiculous lighting and crap at the beginning, just so OTT and getting out of hand. Glad we shoved it right back in their faces. I know Brown dropped a couple of try scoring passes but I still think he brings so much to the team, even if he has been off form in the league. Wonderful performance and I loved the emotion at the end.
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Got to largely stick with the same team now. That centre partnership showed great promise and Watson is growing into the role. One downside was Billy V, who needs to show more intensity. I thought we held our discipline excellently in the face of dubious officiating.
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YEEEEESSSS! That is all
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Got to largely stick with the same team now. That centre partnership showed great promise and Watson is growing into the role. One downside was Billy V, who needs to show more intensity. I thought we held our discipline excellently in the face of dubious officiating.
Yes, very poor referee and I agree about Billy, neither of the brothers look very fit to me
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I think three of Ford, Cipriani, Burrell, Eastmond, Joseph and Tuilagi can offer us so many great options in the middle of pitch.
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Top wIn. 2 good days now. New kid yesterday, England win today. Now, for Villa...
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Top wIn. 2 good days now. New kid yesterday, England win today. Now, for Villa...
Think meatloaf wrote a song about that?
Congratulations by the way
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Got to largely stick with the same team now. That centre partnership showed great promise and Watson is growing into the role. One downside was Billy V, who needs to show more intensity. I thought we held our discipline excellently in the face of dubious officiating.
Yes, very poor referee and I agree about Billy, neither of the brothers look very fit to me
To be fair after a really 1sided first half the ref improved massive after halftime I seriously think the crowd got to him and someone slapped it out of him at halftime. The decision drag the brown kick back and the decision for their try were genuine shockers.
I thought Mako was good when he came on, Billy I think they just did a job on, they had someone hitting him around the shins every time he got the ball, I thought he was excellent at the breakdown though, he did a lot more dirty work than he he was doing in the autumn.
As for Brown, I like some things about him but I still don't think he has the brains to be truly world class. I think Watson back one and Nowell in on the wing would be my only change in the backs (I'd also bring Simpson onto the bench ahead of Wigglesworth, mainly as a reward for his superb club form but also pace on the bench really hurts teams and Simpson has plenty).
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Really excellent second half. The closeness of the score in no way reflects the dominance we showed in the last 40.
I can't recall Wales even being in our half after the break
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We were completely dominant in the second half. I thought Ford's game management was excellent and really good to see.
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I also loved the way we stared them down in the tunnel and refused to go out too early.
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I also loved the way we stared them down in the tunnel and refused to go out too early.
Wasn't that good! Great to see the Welsh players thrown by it in the tunnel. This idea that only they can be passionate about rugby and beating the English and it can't be the same the other way round really irritates me, as does the notion that we we were some bit part player in their overhyped and frankly embarrassing build up to the game. I thought I was watching a One Direction concert. Pathetic. I loved it too when Haskell really let rip at the end of the game with his celebrations. Message to the welsh - yes, we love beating you as much as you do us.
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Watching the game yesterday made me realise how frustrating it is the Gatland coached a successful Lions tour. He has one style of play and it's all about physicality and his Lions success was against a desperately poor Australian side.
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Come on Scotland.
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Scotland look a good side, I fancy them to finish above Wales.
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We're always shit against Wales. And most of the other teams. Scotland are a bit unlucky to be honest, having to play five opponents of whom four are their bogey teams...
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I just hope England keep the faith with the players who have put us back on track. I don't want to see Barritt near the side again.
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We're always shit against Wales. And most of the other teams. Scotland are a bit unlucky to be honest, having to play five opponents of whom four are their bogey teams...
scotland seem to have a good pack or good backs but rarely both. This side seems the most balanced they've had for years but there's still a lack of depth and it's not quite got the quality in all areas (for example the front row isn't on a par with the other UK sides).
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Not really sure what to think about England here, I think he took the defensive option to replacing Brown, Cips on at 15 would've been the progressive choice.
England then scored 2 good tries (the idiot commentators trying to suggest Billy didn't ground the try must've had their eyes closed) but we've looked disjointed, before his injury Brown was having an absolute stinker (even the injury was his own fault for being caught on his heels hiding behind the pack so he was playing catchup on a chip that he should've been favourite for).
I'll be disappointed if we don't get 35-40 points from here.
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Good result in the end and some good performances but a few worries as well. Im more convinced than ever that Brown needs a break, twelvetrees is slow and predictable, which is a bad combination at this level in a 12. I'd bring Nowell in for Brown and push Watson back then have brown on the bench and drop twelvetrees from the 23. Cipriani needs more chances, his work for his own try to spot the chance and then make the support run was superb, that's what you want from an impact 10, if we can get him 20-25minutes again in the next few games I think he can become firmly established as the alternative.
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I agree with putting Watson at full back. May really needs to work on his defence. I really hope Ford and Cipriani are our fly halves at the World Cup, but I doubt it.
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That's got to be obstruction. Has to be.
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The Welsh have been dirty as hell today, and they've got away with it.
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The Welsh have been dirty as hell today, and they've got away with it.
They always are, the common one is the amount of times they manage to roll away from the tackle right into the path of the other teams support players, or they hold on to the tacklee just a bit longer than is legal.
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Or they put hands into the scrum and get away with it...that one was truly baffling and that no-one has really highlighted it in the media.
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Or they put hands into the scrum and get away with it...that one was truly baffling and that no-one has really highlighted it in the media.
Didn't affect the result so I guess it's been swept under the carpet. The most frustrating thing about that was, as I was shouting at the TV for hands in the scrum the commentator was praising falatau for 'excellent play', my wife said chimes in that I'd clearly got it wrong until the other commentator mentions that it could maybe be hands in the scrum about 30seconds later before they move on and continue to praise the determination of the welsh.
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I think other than that and that was quickly glossed over by Moore saying, "well the referee didn't give it" I think maybe only one match report in the nationals mentioned it too, but only in a, 'you could argue that hands in the scrum but...' type way.
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I know. And he climbed into the middle of the fucking scrum to pluck the ball out.
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now I've generally got a lot of time for Jerry Guscott but can anyone explain to me how his team of the week - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31482164 - contains more Italians than Englishmen?
Ireland beating France and only having 1 player in there is a bit ridiculous as well, and filling it with Welsh players despite the fact that with a bit more composure Scotland had the chances to win that game shows just how pro-welsh the rugby press are.
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At the moment I'm hoping Ford and Joseph are nailed on to start in the World Cup now and that Cipriani will be the number 10 to come off the bench.
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At the moment I'm hoping Ford and Joseph are nailed on to start in the World Cup now and that Cipriani will be the number 10 to come off the bench.
They should be, and Watson should be nailed on in the back 3. They're the backs that, in my opinion, can't be dropped. I think Burrell should join them but was scuppered a bit this week by being outside twelvetrees who just wasn't picking the right passes to release him and it means we still haven't seen cips and burrell at 10 and 12 which is the combination that will nail their places in the 23. As said I think I'd drop Brown and try Watson at 15 and Nowell which I think will work and would balance things out better, leaving May as the only wildcard, I'm not sure he's got the consistency to ever be entirely sure of his spot but the flashes of utter brilliance probably outweigh the small errors and inconsistency, dropping a guy who ripped the all blacks a new one is a brave call.
The pack is pretty settled, the only real question marks are around whether we try to get Corbs back in and waiting on the fitness of Morgan.
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Is Watson good enough under the high ball? Haven't seen too much of him in club rugby but one of the southern hemisphere teams certainly seemed to target him during the autumn internationals. No idea whether that was because he spilled an early one, or a deliberate tactic as they thought it was a weakness.
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Is Watson good enough under the high ball? Haven't seen too much of him in club rugby but one of the southern hemisphere teams certainly seemed to target him during the autumn internationals. No idea whether that was because he spilled an early one, or a deliberate tactic as they thought it was a weakness.
Yes, he's generally very strong under the high ball, and, like Robinson, he's so dangerous that teams don't often kick the ball too close to him.
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Is Watson good enough under the high ball? Haven't seen too much of him in club rugby but one of the southern hemisphere teams certainly seemed to target him during the autumn internationals. No idea whether that was because he spilled an early one, or a deliberate tactic as they thought it was a weakness.
Yes, he's generally very strong under the high ball, and, like Robinson, he's so dangerous that teams don't often kick the ball too close to him.
Adds another dimension to the Ireland v England game as Sexton's kicking game is up there with the best of them and you'd expect any team to test a rookie 15 regardless of how good they could become.
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Elliott Daly is putting his hand up for a squad place with England here, 2 bits of genius for the 2 wasps tries, he's just got a fantastic change of pace for the outside break, it's almost unreadable.
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Elliott Daly is putting his hand up for a squad place with England here, 2 bits of genius for the 2 wasps tries, he's just got a fantastic change of pace for the outside break, it's almost unreadable.
Indeed. A new name to me. He's looked good.
Wade has been quiet by comparison.
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I'm pretty sure I've mentioned Daly a few times, he's had a tough couple of years being moved around to wing, fb, 10 and the odd game in the centres but he's getting a run at 13 now and starting to show his quality. I met him a few years back just after his first couple of games with Wasps and he had a great attitude as well. For me he's probably not got the time to break into the world cup squad but I suspect he'll be part of the 23 for the next 6N. Hes also got an absolute cannon on him:
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The table after this weekend shows just why this league is so good, Saints are pretty clear at the top now and will stay there with the best squad in the league, then we have a very good Bath side looking good for a play off spot and 5 teams on 44/43 points all of which can beat anyone but are also capable of taking a bit of a kicking when it's least expected. Only Sale are a surprise and they're where they are on the back of Cipriani being a genius and the the rest of the team accepting that their role is to give him a platform.
Quins and Glaws have both struggled at times but have the squads to be involved with the group above but they're probably a bit too far back to force their way in now, then Newcastle and Irish are both sides that have struggled to keep their best players but have good academies and solid foundations and I think Worcester or Bristol up in place Welsh will be much more competitive next season. On top of that I think Saints will drop back into the pack a bit with Manoa leaving and Bath are going to see their backline have a long summer building up to the world cup and they might struggle to readjust once they're all back.
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Alex Goode must have incriminating pics of Lancaster, how many times does a guy have to show he's too slow to play full back for England before they give up on selecting him, I know he's only retained in the squad and there's no guarantee but anyone with sense moves Watson to 15 and brings Nowell in on the wing so we've got the form backs in the league (bar May who's always been hit and miss but the hits make it worth it) all playing in their correct position.
I think they should've kept Lawes as well, and I'm not sure why Thomas has been retained unless Cole or Brookes are carrying a knock.
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Brookes is carrying a knock. I'm hoping Goode won't get anywhere near the team and I'm sure he won't. I wonder if Lawes still isn't ready, because he'd be starting if he was.
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I didn't see the Italy game. What did May do to deserved being dropped out of the squad completely ?
Also, I heard snippets of a couple of interviews this week that suggest some serious back-tracking regarding the timetable and expectations for the Burgess experiment. I wouldn't surprise me to see him make a swift return to the Northern Game.
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I'm surprised May is dropped completely, but his defence we really poor against Wales and Italy. I guess they're concerned about the high ball.
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I didn't see the Italy game. What did May do to deserved being dropped out of the squad completely ?
Also, I heard snippets of a couple of interviews this week that suggest some serious back-tracking regarding the timetable and expectations for the Burgess experiment. I wouldn't surprise me to see him make a swift return to the Northern Game.
He needs a summer working on intensive skills. The problem with switching codes mid season like he did is that training will be focused on set plays and team cohesion rather than on the basic skills to underpin that, the skill and fitness work happens in the summer. Next season was always likely to be the time to judge him, right now he's still positioning himself as a league player (specifically a league forward) so he's too flat for a centre and isn't getting into the game. That can only come with training but given he has the handling/off-loading, tackling and running game to be a very good centre it's all about tuning rather than anything more.
For the squad, I completely missed that May wasn't included. I can understand it against Ireland who are built entirely around 2 things, kick chase and choke tackles, both areas where May is weak (kick chase because he can be suspect in defence and choke tackles because he runs very upright and often gets tackled high). Nowell is much more compact and aggressive which is better suited to counter the Irish game. This does, for me, confirm that Goode will start, I can't see him giving Pennell his debut even though he was very impressive against an incredibly strong Wolfhounds side a few weeks back (5 of their 23 from that day were in the squad against france and another 4-5 are in their main training squad). I really hope they do risk Pennell though, Goode is proven to not be good enough.
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The news was a lot more positive on Brown yesterday, so I think there's a good chance he'll start.
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The news was a lot more positive on Brown yesterday, so I think there's a good chance he'll start.
Let's wait and see, I don't think he's cleared for full training yet so it's still in the balance.
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He's out of the game, which means it will be Goode. I'm gutted about that.
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Ireland big favourites for me. Goode is not up to it.
Whilst I admit to wearing Gloucester blinkers, is this not another case of a Gloucester player getting the thin end of the wedge by England (file under Simpson-Daniel, Sharples etc). May has played ok in 2 winning teams and is being replaced by a centre/full back. Nowell has 12 tries in 46, May 47 in 106. I really think Lancaster has shown his lack of decision making on this one. Also I weep that international rugby is focussed on big defence and not maverick runners.
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I like May, but his defence was dreadful in the first two matches and he didn't offer a lot going forward. I think he should come back in, but I can understand him being dropped. Goode on the other hand I can't stand and like Barritt I think he should be on the international scrap heap.
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The issue is that when Lancaster started quintessential and sarries were the 2 top sides so he built his first squad around them, which made sense. Since then they been overtaken by Exeter, bath and saints playing a different brand of rugby but he's trying to be loyal to the first lot he picked so they all get loads of chances to prove themselves whilst a lot of others seem to be 1 poor performance away from being dropped. That inequality is my big problem with the squad. Good was entirely responsible for the defeat to France last 6N and yet he's never been far from the squad.
I also think his blind loyalty to robshaw and, for a long time farrell has been a big weakness. We're now at the point of being absolutely fucked if Robshaw picky up an injury, thankfully Farrell picked up his injuries at the right time so we're seeing his replacement now.
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Loyalty is a problem and like I said I think May deserved to be dropped, but everyone has to have the same treatment. Goode and Barritt shouldn't be anywhere near the squad.
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So same team and bench except Nowell and Goode in for May and Brown, how very predictable.
I do wish he stop going back to the 'safe' options any time he has a selection dilemma, There's better options at fullback than a guy who is a 10 who' been played out of position for most of his career. He's slow for a premiership fullback, at international level it's painful to watch him trundling around.
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Saints v Quinns just starting on BT Sport.
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I see that the plan to stop promotion/relegation between the top two teams in England is back on the table.
I don't know who's leading the push this time. Previously it was Rob Andrew and Newcastle, who conveniently forgot that without promotion they wouldn't have been in the top division.
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Here's something I've been meaning to do for a while......
When the leagues started in 1987/88, The Mighty Lyd were put in Tier 4 in what was called "Area League South".
In the close to three decades since then, we've been up one division for a couple of seasons and down one division for a season. We're currently back where we started.
However, where are the other teams that started off with us in Area League South.
Here you go..........
• Askeans (Tier 10 - Kent 2)
• Camborne (Tier 6 - South West 1 West)
• Cheltenham (Tier 7 - Western Counties North)
• Havant (Tier 6 - London 1 South)
• Lydney (Tier 4 - Same as 1987/88)
• Salisbury (Tier 7 - Southern Counties South)
• Sidcup (Tier 6 - London 1 South)
• Southend (Tier 4 - Same as 1987/88)
• Streatham-Croydon (Tier 11 - Surrey 3)
• Stroud (Tier 8 - Gloucestershire Premier)
• Sudbury (Tier 8 - London 3 North East)
So, that's us and Southend where we started and everyone else two divisions below or more. No team who started out with us has made any sustained progress up the leagues.
(NB - current divisions were check on team websites this morning. I'm hoping they were up to date)
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Saints v Quinns just starting on BT Sport.
Was a very good game, Lawes looked like he'd never missed a day let alone 2 months, the guy is a machine.
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Sigh. Looks like we've turned up as the Cowardly Lion again today.
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That was better. But Ireland look very strong in the tackle.
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England can win this.
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We're going to lose this, our game plan isn't right.
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Really ill disciplined performance. You can't give away penalties like this.
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Poor, not good enough at all.
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Terrible and woeful from Goode.
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Shite
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What a fucking dreadful weekend of sport.
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Oh fuck off goode, 1 job to just make sure he doesn't get to that.
Edit for stupid auto correct
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This is going the way of Cardiff from a couple of years ago. It's just about how many Ireland can rack up now.
We've not matched fire with fire - a bunch of shrinking violets.
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Another penalty. This is a fucking atrocious performance.
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That's not the problem, what we've done wrong is try to play Ireland at their own game instead of concentrate on what we can do. We've just kicked to much possession away.
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Can't help but think we are retting exactly What we deserve after picking Goode. For that decision alone, Lancaster has to Go.
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Need a change.
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Is this Goode related to the old salad-dodging Leicester fly-half?
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Awful, ill disciplined.
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This has been one of the poorest displays I've seen from us. Ireland are more intense, better disciplined and understand the game they're trying to play.
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This has been one of the poorest displays I've seen from us. Ireland are more intense, better disciplined and understand the game they're trying to play.
We've often crumbled in these cauldron atmospheres, but I thought Cardiff this year was a corner turned. But no, cowardly performance.
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Bring Cipriani on.
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That'll be the excuse to drop Joseph back out of the squad then.
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Bring Cipriani on.
At full back :-)
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Crap box kicks. Just what we needed.
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Twelvetrees is fucking garbage.
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Showed decent heart from 60 minutes onwards, pity they were terrible before that. Goode, Twelvetrees and Tom Youngs shouldn't be near the team. But I bet it's Joseph that gets binned. Very disappointing and it's clear now that as soon as Farrell is back Cipriani will be out of the squad.
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Rubbish
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WTF? Marginally forward at best. Half the AB's passes are more forward than that.
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Twelvetrees is terrible every time he plays, he has to go. What an awful sporting weekend.
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England haven't been helped by some ropey decisions at key times, giving Ireland the put in to the scrum on their line when there was nothing there being the worst.
Forward pass there when 4 or 5 irish ones have been allowed to go sums it up as well.
However the game plan was shit, Goode is a waste of space and twelvetrees isn't good enough either.
I seriously hate losing to Ireland, they're fucking shit but kick well and get away with fucking about on the floor. For some reason we always go down to their level and make them look like world beaters.
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Twelvetrees is terrible every time he plays, he has to go. What an awful sporting weekend.
Chelsea to win the League Cup to wrap it up probably.
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England haven't been helped by some ropey decisions at key times, giving Ireland the put in to the scrum on their line when there was nothing there being the worst.
Forward pass there when 4 or 5 irish ones have been allowed to go sums it up as well.
However the game plan was shit, Goode is a waste of space and twelvetrees isn't good enough either.
I seriously hate losing to Ireland, they're fucking shit but kick well and get away with fucking about on the floor. For some reason we always go down to their level and make them look like world beaters.
They're not shit really though, you don't win 10 test matches in a row if you're shit. However we let them play it wasn't good enough. Goode shouldn't be anywhere near the squad. Also I'm getting sick of England teams giving away shed loads of penalties.
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On the highlights they've just shown a penalty against Robshaw but how can he be offside when that ball was clearly out, lying on the floor 6 inches behind the ruck with the scrum half pissing about. 10 minutes later they came round the side in exactly the same way and it was played on.
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England haven't been helped by some ropey decisions at key times, giving Ireland the put in to the scrum on their line when there was nothing there being the worst.
Forward pass there when 4 or 5 irish ones have been allowed to go sums it up as well.
However the game plan was shit, Goode is a waste of space and twelvetrees isn't good enough either.
I seriously hate losing to Ireland, they're fucking shit but kick well and get away with fucking about on the floor. For some reason we always go down to their level and make them look like world beaters.
They're not shit really though, you don't win 10 test matches in a row if you're shit. However we let them play it wasn't good enough. Goode shouldn't be anywhere near the squad. Also I'm getting sick of England teams giving away shed loads of penalties.
Compared to where we should be they are. They've got half backs who can kick but have very little else to their game, centres who have no footwork and run predictable lines, 2 wingers who are defensively solid and will chase kicks but have no real pace or ability to beat men. That's not a backline that we should be terrified of but instead of getting right in the faces of Murray and Sexton to force them to pass it on we let them play the kick and chase game which is the one thing they're good at and then when we get the ball we just kick back to them to give them another chance, it drives me mad.
They do have a decent pack but the key to playing against the Irish pack is to just run over the dickhead who rolls between the tackle and the oncoming players and give him a bit of a shoeing rather than taking a bit of care and letting their follow up players get in position over the ball, Ireland are masters of making sure the tackler gets his body in the way so you have to make sure they know you're not going to give them an easy time if they do.
The other Irish 'trick' is that they counter the ctach and drive by starting their counter drive before the catcher is on the floor, Robshaw should be highlighting that every single time and making sure the ref knows about it but he's just far too passive and let O'Connell do all the talking so the ref was always on their side, thats the main reason I don't think Robshaw should be the captain or guaranteed his place.
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Joubert is fast becoming as bad as Steve Walsh. Some shockers in there today.
My god, would you pay money to watch Ireland? I wouldn't.
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Too many penalties again. I thought Attwood looked like what he is... 6th choice lock. The back row isn't right and I think Robshaw is too nice to be captain
The backs still have enough potential and when Manu comes back there will be another dimension
Alex goode tho... Like a bloody oil tanker. Nowhere near international class
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Joubert is fast becoming as bad as Steve Walsh. Some shockers in there today.
My god, would you pay money to watch Ireland? I wouldn't.
That's what I mean when I say they're shit, they've perverted the game to be something akin to gaelic football and then win on the back of being the only side that plays that way with any experience.
Too many penalties again. I thought Attwood looked like what he is... 6th choice lock. The back row isn't right and I think Robshaw is too nice to be captain
The backs still have enough potential and when Manu comes back there will be another dimension
Alex goode tho... Like a bloody oil tanker. Nowhere near international class
Which is why Lawes should've stayed with the squad, when you see Lawes rip quins apart on friday and then watch Attwood and Krui struggle to compete 2 days later you have to think the manager has made a big mistake. I'm also still not convinced Haskell has the quality to play internationally, any thoughts of him keeping the shirt over Wood surely have to be dismissed now.
On Robshaw he works very hard and covers a lot of ground and he's a good tackler but I'm not really sure what else he brings, kicking to the corner at 6-3 when we'd had no territory was a mistake and indirectly led to a lot of the extra pressure we put ourselves under later on.
Fundamentally I can't work out how a team who are 12 points clear at the top of the league have less players in the squad than the teams who are 6th and 9th and have been poor pretty consistently all season. I understand that Northampton have some injuries which mean Wood and Lawes weren't available but their player of the season so far is Clark who should be ahead of Croft and Corbs is the best prop in Europe and has to be in the 23 for me. I'd also still put Dickson and Simpson as the best options at 9 right now.
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I can only assume that Lawes was given the opportunity to get some match practice before being reintroduced to the team. I'm not sure it is reasonable to have expected him to be so 'match fit' (frighteningly so - those hits!) after two months out.
My opinion on Ire v Eng is that they're probably a year further advanced than us, better drilled and won their set plays/executed their moves better. Sexton was a huge part of that (up and under for example).
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Too many penalties again. I thought Attwood looked like what he is... 6th choice lock. The back row isn't right and I think Robshaw is too nice to be captain
The backs still have enough potential and when Manu comes back there will be another dimension
Alex goode tho... Like a bloody oil tanker. Nowhere near international class
Goode made one nice defensive gather near the posts while running backwards, avoided some tacklers and got back out to the 22.
However he also called for a mark when catching the ball behind the try line. Not sure what he was thinking.
36 looks poor at international level, which is hardly surprising because he looks decidedly average at club level.
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Can't believe Twelvetrees is bring slated here, he was only on late in the game.
We were chasing the game and we had no pace Nowell on the pitch and try scorer unpredictable runner Johnny May unavailable. Thanks so much Lancaster you mug.
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Too many penalties again. I thought Attwood looked like what he is... 6th choice lock. The back row isn't right and I think Robshaw is too nice to be captain
The backs still have enough potential and when Manu comes back there will be another dimension
Alex goode tho... Like a bloody oil tanker. Nowhere near international class
Goode made one nice defensive gather near the posts while running backwards, avoided some tacklers and got back out to the 22.
However he also called for a mark when catching the ball behind the try line. Not sure what he was thinking.
36 looks poor at international level, which is hardly surprising because he looks decidedly average at club level.
It seems to me that we struggled massively at the breakdown. Whilst I understand the reasons for not picking Armitage, it is exactly the type of player that we miss in games like this.
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Can't believe Twelvetrees is bring slated here, he was only on late in the game.
And in that time he dragged an England player over the line from an offside position and threw a sloppy forward pass. In both instances ruining good try scoring opportunities.
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A backline of Care, Ford, Burrell/Tuilagi, Joseph, May, Brown and Watson would be fine going into the World Cup. You can add Simpson, Daly, Nowell, Cipriani and Wade into the mix. There's plenty of talent there.
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A backline of Care, Ford, Burrell/Tuilagi, Joseph, May, Brown and Watson would be fine going into the World Cup. You can add Simpson, Daly, Nowell, Cipriani and Wade into the mix. There's plenty of talent there.
And Eastmond, Rokoduguni, Ashton, Foden, Yarde and Dickson all have something to offer at this level. On top of that Devoto and Robson are going to be superb players.
We really need to give them a bit more freedom though. It's no surprise that the part of the game where we looked good after Ireland scored was when we stopped kicking for territory and started keeping the ball in hand.
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bath vs sale has been awful, Bath look lost without Ford, Watson and Joseph, they just can't break the line.
Cips hasn't got into the game at all.
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It looks like a knee injury this afternoon (which was entirely his own fault for taking the man out in the air) is the only reason we don't get to witness the joy of seeing Barritt slow play down for England next week, damp shame. I'm sure he'll find a way to get a few extra sarries players in though.
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The thought that Barritt was nailed on to come back in horrifies me.
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Negative in the extreme and completely misunderstanding why we lost to Ireland (I'll spell it out, we lost because we played a team full of Gaelic football players who've been playing under the high ball since they were kids and we decided the best way to play them was to kick the fucking ball away). That's nothing to do with Burrell or Joseph (who were actually starved of ball because of it) and it's not even down to Ford who's much more willing to keep the ball in hand and make gaps than he's shown in this 6N. It's typical of English sporting mentality though, lose a game so bring in people who tackle harder and put in all the effort in the world but don't have the basic skills to threaten top teams.
The reliance on Sarries (who play Irish style rugby) as the foundation of the squad is the biggest issue for me. Saints are comfortably the best side in the league and yet he's spent 3 years marginalising their players in the squad.
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The premiership was a haven for fantastic tries this week.
The Wilson and Daly ones are superb.
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The premiership was a haven for fantastic tries this week.
The Wilson and Daly ones are superb.
Yeah shame that Lancaster doesn't consider Wade worthy of a call up? Honestly the fella is pissing me off as much as Lambert did with Villa. How Ford, Eastmond and JJ haven't had a run together is staggeringng as they have been THE best midfield all season. Still, as long as players are big and are vocal and are percived "leaders" then that is all that matters.
He doesn't like and has never ever trusted creativity.
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The premiership was a haven for fantastic tries this week.
The Wilson and Daly ones are superb.
Yeah shame that Lancaster doesn't consider Wade worthy of a call up? Honestly the fella is pissing me off as much as Lambert did with Villa. How Ford, Eastmond and JJ haven't had a run together is staggeringng as they have been THE best midfield all season. Still, as long as players are big and are vocal and are percived "leaders" then that is all that matters.
He doesn't like and has never ever trusted creativity.
I like the 10, 12, 13 balance now, Eastmond has got more creativity than Burrell and is very good in broken field but in phased play the angles Burrell picks can open sides up. The issue is that Ford isn't playing his natural game so there's not enough good ball coming out wide. That's why I'd like to see Cipriani get a bit more time, I think he's mature enough to just play his game and do what he's good at, which would open up a lot more space for the 2 outside him.
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Squad looks a lot stronger with Lawes, Brown and Parlinh returning.
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Squad looks a lot stronger with Lawes, Brown and Parlinh returning.
and wood
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Wales game is going our way at the moment.
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Didn't watch much of the wales-ireland game but from what I saw Wales approached it properly and played to their own strengths rather than playing to Ireland's.
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The premiership was a haven for fantastic tries this week.
National League 2 South is where the great tries are scored.
Here's one that we scored recently
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Good start but we need to put the points on.
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Terrible defending.
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Need to up our game massively now. Fucking sort it out England.
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We really need to sort out our defence.
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We really need to sort out our defence.
It's not the defensive line, it's because Robshaw offers nothing slowing the ball down so teams know that if they're aggressive they can create gaps by producing quick ball and we can't do anything about it. This is why I don't think he should be captain and a regular, if teams are getting quick ball your 7 isn't doing his primary job.
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We really need to sort out our defence.
It's not the defensive line, it's because Robshaw offers nothing slowing the ball down so teams know that if they're aggressive they can create gaps by producing quick ball and we can't do anything about it. This is why I don't think he should be captain and a regular, if teams are getting quick ball your 7 isn't doing his primary job.
Next Scottish attack Robsaw goes in on the ball and we get the penalty, it's really fucking simple.
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Scotland have dominated this since about 20 mins.
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I maintain our defensive line is all over the place.
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Well that was a chastening half and we need a big improvement in the second half. We were complacent and once again our kicking game was woeful.
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Big half needed now.
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Nowell needs to be dropped his handling is rubbish.
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Finally we take a chance. We made this way way way more difficult than it should have been and Ford's kicking under pressure is a bit of a concern.
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Nowell needs to be dropped his handling is rubbish.
Nowell played really well, the issues today are the same as they've been for ages, we don't generate quick ball inside the 22, we don't have structure to the play in the backs and we don't do enough to slow down the ball under pressure.
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I think it has a lot to do with a lack of precision.
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Nowell needs to be dropped his handling is rubbish.
Nowell played really well, the issues today are the same as they've been for ages, we don't generate quick ball inside the 22, we don't have structure to the play in the backs and we don't do enough to slow down the ball under pressure.
I'd be somewhere between the two of you there. You can tell there is a great player in him waiting to burst through but his lack of awareness and composure was alarming at times today. He wasn't alone in that though, seldom have I seen quite so many chances wasted. Our backs need a very stiff talk about precision, composure and being aware of where your team mates are.
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I wish Nowell would get a haircut!
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I think it has a lot to do with a lack of precision.
I've said before (maybe not in this thread though) my biggest concern with Lancaster all along was that he seemed to have the very English mindset of focusing on getting things right from 1-10 and trusting the backs to 'do their thing'. Too often the backs seem to do just that and beat their man and break the line but then the rest of the team either run poor lines or just dn't get there. Then they're trying to force offloads or risky passes which is where the imprecision comes from.
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Nowell needs to be dropped his handling is rubbish.
Nowell played really well, the issues today are the same as they've been for ages, we don't generate quick ball inside the 22, we don't have structure to the play in the backs and we don't do enough to slow down the ball under pressure.
I'd be somewhere between the two of you there. You can tell there is a great player in him waiting to burst through but his lack of awareness and composure was alarming at times today. He wasn't alone in that though, seldom have I seen quite so many chances wasted. Our backs need a very stiff talk about precision, composure and being aware of where your team mates are.
Nowell is a big lump, reasonable defensively and can crash through. He offers very little spark and invention which is what I want from a winger. He needs dropping.
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I'm not a huge fan of Nowell, but he's anything but a 'big lump'.
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I'm not a huge fan of Nowell, but he's anything but a 'big lump'.
Lump then.
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Whilst Nowell hasn't got the footwork and pace of May or Wade he runs very good support lines, which, as with Ashton, makes him a great weapon if he's used right.
I'm all for us trying out our options and Nowell is one who deserves a chance, he's had a superb season for Exeter. That's why I find the insistence on Robshaw playing 80minutes every game regardless of how he plays so frustrating, we've seen no options at 7 in 4 years other than Kvesic getting a couple of games away in Argentina adn I still maintain that the reason we struggle in some games is because teams dominate us on the floor.
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I agree, Robshaw his position, being captain, is protected. Funny how this always occurs when you play for an establishment club link HQuins, Wasps etc.
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I agree, Robshaw his position, being captain, is protected. Funny how this always occurs when you play for an establishment club link HQuins, Wasps etc.
Leicester and Sarries are the teams that England are built around right now, whenever things don't work out Lancaster falls back on adding more players from those pair.
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Sort of Rugby I suppose, but anyway. My lads team plays on Sundays, for weeks and weeks, I have been telling a few jokes to the Dads. All courtesy of H&V, a never ending supply or so it seemed. Well guess what, Villa win and win and win, then every bugger is talking football again. No bugger is off topic or posting jokes. I'm getting grief of the Dads
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Italy have completely collapsed. Wales have a chance now, annoyingly.
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It's getting ridiculous. Currently 16 points ahead of England. 20 for Ireland.
I think Wales have done it.
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England need 16, Ireland 20.
Italy scoring a converted try in the last minute.
Incredible stuff.
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FFS and a converted try for Ireland within 4 minutes.
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Not sure that first Ireland try isn't the result of an obstruction. England are going to struggle now, but our new style does potentially mean we can score a lot of points.
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The way it's going, England will be 3rd.
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It's going to be very tough for us to beat France by any sort of margin. Scotland and Italy have been woeful.
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Short of a dramatic improvement from Scotland I think the chhampionship is gone.
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It's going to be very tough for us to beat France by any sort of margin. Scotland and Italy have been woeful.
How much of Scotland's performance is the fact that even in losing they get to put one over England? Italy hardly turned up too.
Will France be equally unmotivated? And could England play as well as Ireland and Wales have. Despite average opposition they've put away their chances.
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We've got not chance.
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Scoatlun were pish. Italy? Que cazzo!
I just hope England win. Any win over France is good. Forget the championship.
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The way the rest of the day has gone, football included, I'm not optimistic about this one.
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Idiots.
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Wrong decision to kick the 47m penalty as that's right on the edge of Ford's range, by doing it we gave them a route back into the game.
Since then we've gifted away 8 points by being pathetic at the breakdown. I don't like to go on but having a 7 who won't play on the floor and not picking a 6 (in Wood) who's willing to help him out is killing us.
I don't get how they've given that 2nd french try, looked like he'd dropped it to me.
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Idiots.
F**king idiots I should have said. Against this French shower as well.
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Dreadful stuff from England. SCW saying beforehand we would ramp up the expectations in important games to see who could handle the pressure. I'd have to say very few of this lot would pass the test.
They're making France look like world-beaters.
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Is there a tactic I'm not aware of with regards to kicking an up-and-under way too long i.e. so it is not contested?
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Dreadful stuff from England. SCW saying beforehand we would ramp up the expectations in important games to see who could handle the pressure. I'd have to say very few of this lot would pass the test.
They're making France look like world-beaters.
Mentality and approach is the problem rather than individual performances (to an extent).
Joseph has pulled us out of the fire there, 9 point lead, lets try to pile on the pressure and get another score before half time, a double figure lead after this first half would be huge.
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That passage of play shows why rugby is awesome. From the break-away try through to the lecture by the ref.
All of it was awesome.
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That passage of play shows why rugby is awesome. From the break-away try through to the lecture by the ref.
All of it was awesome.
Like.
It also shows why England are a much better side when we don't just kick the fucking thing away all the time. If you kick the ball outside you're 22 you need to either be trying to get it out on the first bounce or it needs to be in behind the defenders and getting them turned so they have no time to do anything but kick it clear. All the hanging kicks are pathetic, that's not our game. With the outside backs we have we should be playing a wide expansive game, picking ball carriers and then never giving them the ball is just stupid Watson and Joseph in particular could run any side in europe into the ground (in fact only NZ and SA have the quality to keep with them) but only if we get them loads of ball with space to attack.
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It's been an enjoyable game so far.
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What a monumental fucking idiot Haskel is.
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Without that sin bin we'd have comfortably scored enough points. Now we're fucked.
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Fucks sake Brown don't turn your back on him, dumb fuck.
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What a monumental fucking idiot Haskel is.
He plays on the edge and is a character. Like Hartley you need a few players like that.
However I'm not entirely convinced that his game is quite good enough to justify the risk though.
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A try that wouldn't have been conceded with a full compliment of forwards on.
Just fuck off Haskel.
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What a monumental fucking idiot Haskel is.
He plays on the edge and is a character. Like Hartley you need a few players like that.
However I'm not entirely convinced that his game is quite good enough to justify the risk though.
There's a difference between on the edge and just plain stupid though.
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Regardless of the result today, we really should have beat Scotland by at least 30 points last week. They'll only have themselves to blame.
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That's a bloody good try though.
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What a monumental fucking idiot Haskel is.
He plays on the edge and is a character. Like Hartley you need a few players like that.
However I'm not entirely convinced that his game is quite good enough to justify the risk though.
His game isn't good enough, he has a better showreel that Wood but is nothing like as good a player.
Can anyone explain to me why Ben Youngs went off, he's been the best player on the pitch by a long way.
Brilliant delayed pass from Ford for that try.
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Marvellous game. There's very little to choose between Ireland, England and Wales and for it to go down to just 6 points ends a wonderful 6 Nations.
Haskell was stupid, he should have known better. Our handling in a 15 minute spell in the first half was poor but all in all we played well. Youngs was awesome.
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Cracking game and in Joshua, Laws and Youngs we have genuine world class players. Laws in particular for me will be as big a player for England as Johnson was.
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damn it, we should have won this year, a fucking joke of a performance in Ireland and a hangover against scotland have cost us big time.
That said, that's the best game of rugby I've ever seen, it was utterly brilliant.
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Let's be fair considering the injuries England had coming into this tournament that we got this close should be a huge fillip to the team. We won't concede this many again for a while but you can blame that on the situation. I think we're in great shape for the World Cup.
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There's no doubt in my mind that England easily have the most talented group of players in the northern hemisphere.
Today was a blue print of how we should be, and can attack. If only we'd have gone into the Ireland game with even half that intensity and tempo. Ireland wouldn't have been able to cope with that.
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There's no doubt in my mind that England easily have the most talented group of players in the northern hemisphere.
Today was a blue print of how we should be, and can attack. If only we'd have gone into the Ireland game with even half that intensity and tempo. Ireland wouldn't have been able to cope with that.
When we kept the ball in hand and started playing to our strengths we looked superb, if only I trusted Lancaster to let us play with that freedom more often.
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Nowell is a big lump, reasonable defensively and can crash through. He offers very little spark and invention which is what I want from a winger. He needs dropping.
Sorry for necro'ing a post from last week, but his tries today highlighted exactly what I was talking about last week, his first was superb footwork and his 2nd was a fantastic support line. I still think he should be in on the right with Watson at 15 and May on the left though, I think Brown has been poor for the last year and really shouldn't be so secure in his spot.
To go back to my favourite scapegoat Robshaw was much better in the 2nd half but in the first half there were 3-4 times where him not being a proper 7 cost us which makes him still a big conundrum, he's a great tackler and he's good in the loose but I'm not convinced it's enough to continue ignoring his inability to secure possession under pressure or win regular turnovers.
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Let's be fair considering the injuries England had coming into this tournament that we got this close should be a huge fillip to the team. We won't concede this many again for a while but you can blame that on the situation. I think we're in great shape for the World Cup.
Ironically I think the injuries to farrell and Barritt also helped England.
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Well, that was some second half and they gave it a really good go. I was half expecting us to be on the verge of winning the 6N, only for YouFatBastareaux to bulldoze his way through right at the death, but in the end we just didn't quite have enough in the tank to get in the position. Shame the drive right at the end petered out, but well defended by France.
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Let's be fair considering the injuries England had coming into this tournament that we got this close should be a huge fillip to the team. We won't concede this many again for a while but you can blame that on the situation. I think we're in great shape for the World Cup.
Ironically I think the injuries to farrell and Barritt also helped England.
Without doubt.
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It was an insane game. Although I think losing will be the best thing for us in the long run.
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It was such a mixed bag of brilliance and awfulness today. Ford needs to think about his kicking out of hand sometimes. We need to be a much more streetwise team as well. We give away far too many penalties. On the plus side it's good to see an England team who are learning to finish chances.
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Ford needs to think about his kicking out of hand sometimes.
I'm loving Ford with ball in hand and the last thing you want to do is stifle his creativity, but his kicking from hand needs to be much better, more tactically savvy. It might be worth restricting his freedom a bit - more predetermined kicking moves - until his execution is better.
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He should be nailed on to start the World Cup at number 10, as his game management is excellent. However he does need to improve his kicking.
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It was such a mixed bag of brilliance and awfulness today. Ford needs to think about his kicking out of hand sometimes. We need to be a much more streetwise team as well. We give away far too many penalties. On the plus side it's good to see an England team who are learning to finish chances.
Not just Ford, the whole of English rugby needs to think about how they use the ball around halfway. Kicking from your 22 I'm ok with (but land it in the crowd if you do) but how often we kick the ball aimlessly in the first 2-3 phases when we're on halfway is just wasting possession.
We have backs with pace, footwork and good running lines (and forwards that complement them perfectly). We also have a good offloading game and impact players to bring off the bench. We should build our play around that rather than following the up-and-under style that Ireland and Wales favour.
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He should be nailed on to start the World Cup at number 10, as his game management is excellent. However he does need to improve his kicking.
But isn't kicking from hand part of game management? Or are you saying the ideas are correct just the execution wrong?
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We also have a good offloading game and impact players to bring off the bench. We should build our play around that rather than following the up-and-under style that Ireland and Wales favour.
That's a point I had not considered. With an expansive wide game we'd stretch most teams and our bench is better than any team in the northern hemisphere so likely to exploit tired defences. Not sure about NZ but I'd guess we have a better bench than Aus and SA too.
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Incredible day at Twickenham today, an incredible game of rugby, like watching school kids at times and at other times some of the best attacking rugby we've seen in years. The atmosphere was electric all afternoon, pre match watching the useless Jocks fuck up, thanks Hogg you clown.
Lastly it's about time Scotland or Italy were dropped from the 6 Nations, they're shit, introduce relegation in 2 years time and let Georgia in and the following year Romania.
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Incredible day at Twickenham today, an incredible game of rugby, like watching school kids at times and at other times some of the best attacking rugby we've seen in years. The atmosphere was electric all afternoon, pre match watching the useless Jocks fuck up, thanks Hogg you clown.
Lastly it's about time Scotland or Italy were dropped from the 6 Nations, they're shit, introduce relegation in 2 years time and let Georgia in and the following year Romania.
Or let both in now, split it into 2 groups of 4 and then make the 5th game soe kind of finals weekend, add bonus points for tries and changin the points system to the same as the domestic one, I'd maybe even offer a 2nd bonus point for tries (like 1 for 3 tries and another for 7 or something silly) anything that encourages teams to go for tries and keep playing positive rugby.
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I wish we'd have added argentina before they joined the (was) trip-nations. Most of their players were playing in Europe anyway and they could have occasionally played out of San Sebastian/Bilbao which would have been fantastic away trips. ...Not to mention Buenos Aires/Salta/Mendoza.
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Playing Scotland isn't doing any of the Northern Hemisphere teams any good, they've been garbage for years, at least Italy tried today and for 40 minutes were the better team.
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An amazing day. Setting up days like this could change the way we all play. Wales were magnificent in the second half. Ireland pretty great all game. And (much as it pains me to say it) Ingerlund were superb. If we could move a bit from defensive phase based rugby to more of an attacking game in the NH we might all have a chance at the WC. Today showed me that it's possible. It's also bloody rich coming from Ingerlund fans to say that we play up and under. You have played ball up the jumper for about 30 years.
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Playing Scotland isn't doing any of the Northern Hemisphere teams any good, they've been garbage for years, at least Italy tried today and for 40 minutes were the better team.
I work for an essentially Scottish company in London, and have chatted to them about the game in Jockland. Whilst I cannot remember the specifics they said that the game is essentially fucked. They have two (I think) professional teams, so 30-50 squad places. If you're a young player your chances of making it are tiny. Despite having a healthy enthusiasm at youth/(private) school level there is no where for the young players to learn their trade (and get paid). In england there are maybe 20-30 teams where you can work full time as a rugby player whereas Scotland are - pretty much - an amateur team.
It's sad really and probably needs addressing, but I have no idea how.
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An amazing day. Setting up days like this could change the way we all play. Wales were magnificent in the second half. Ireland pretty great all game. And (much as it pains me to say it) Ingerlund were superb. If we could move a bit from defensive phase based rugby to more of an attacking game in the NH we might all have a chance at the WC. Today showed me that it's possible. It's also bloody rich coming from Ingerlund fans to say that we play up and under. You have played ball up the jumper for about 30 years.
I agree England have played Ball up the jumper 10 man rugby for far too long, read back and you'll see me complaining about that a lot. That said, I don't know if you're Wales or Ireland but either way both sides absolutely undeniably play up-and-under rugby right now. Ireland have filled their backline from Gaelic football and Wales have moved to a very clear policy of targeting height and strength in their backline and playing a game built around the kicking game. There's nothing rich in saying that, I'm not saying it's a bad way to play (although I find the Irish adoption to be deeply cynical and I hate watching them) I just think England are being really stupid to try to play the same way, we don't have the squad for it.
I'm sorry if you're offended by that but the 'you've played a specific brand of rugby for years so you're not allowed to comment on other teams playing a specific brand of rugby' angle that you've taken is silly, if you really want that then there's not much point using discussion forums because people use them to share opinions and they won't always be opinions that you like.
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Ireland'a brand of rugby is horrible to watch. England are clearly trying to develop, but our biggest problem is lack of discipline.
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Ireland'a brand of rugby is horrible to watch. England are clearly trying to develop, but our biggest problem is lack of discipline.
That's nothing new and has blighted the English game for years, if it's not Hartley it was Mears, if it wasn't Mears it was Sheridan, continue ad infinitum.
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Yep and it's very frustrating. Also Tom Youngs needs to learn how to throw into a line out.
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We need to become better at bending the rules. All of the successful sides (including us in 2003) have someone who is always playing right on the edge and gets away with it more often than not. Ireland have 2 or 3 of them right now and Mccaw has been a cheating vastard for his entire career and I hate him for it (but if he was English he'd be an absolute legend). A lot of the stuff Hartley gets called up for you'll see other players get away with, often in the same game. That's because of his reputation but also because we never seem to get the ref on our side early. The one that really gets me is the amount of times we get done in scrums when we're dominating, teams seem to have learned they can win cheap penalties from us and they hold it back until it's an important scrum and then they pull out the 'trick' and get a penalty when we've done f-all wrong.
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The scrum isn't refereed properly now anyway. Never ending feeding and the ref giving it 50 50 in terms of penalties regardless of what is happening. You need your captain the refs ear to get any shot at it being viewed objectively.
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Ref link Saturday was an eye opener, Owens to be fair was even handed throughout but he dismissed Robshaw on so many occasions and wouldn't listen to him it was a pointless exercise allowing a captain to address a referee.
That said Robshaw is about as effective as a potato in terms of his referee engagement, I wonder who can help him with this part of his game, just as Mccaw uses it as part of his game, Robshaw and the England camp must address this ahead of the RWC especially now Steve Welsh has retired (see what I did there?)
And as for the scrum it's a joke & has been for a long while, what exactly does a hooker do in this day & age? Dark art my arse, they're just a big lump up front.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32035225
Blimey I didn't expect that statement.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32035225
Blimey I didn't expect that statement.
Its also forgetting that we were expected to be beaten by a good Welsh team and lost to an irish team that can beat most teams. Overall, he's right though. Our size and resources mean we should be dominating the Home Nations at least, more.
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Yep can't see a lot wrong with that, you could read into it that Lancaster is on thin ice though I suppose.
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I'm quite pleased to see that second is not deemed as acceptable.
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I fully support that statement, he's absolutely right. Winning a home world cup would be massive but we're nothing like as far along our development towards it as we should be. We've got a much better 23 than anyone in the northern hemiphere but we're not making the most of the backs, we largely did against france but it was too late, that level of attacking play in the previous 3 games and we win it. Even though we made mistakes in both Wales and France were good performances that bookmarked 3 pretty poor displays. I want Lancaster to be told he needs to be better.
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Massive win for Saints tonight, only saw part of the game but it was another great performance in attack, with only the brilliance of Wade making it a close game. With the lead they have now it's getting close to the point where the playoffs are inappropriate, 14 points, even if they have played a game more, is massive.
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That gap should allow them to rest players and ensure that they're at their optimum for the finals, whereas the other 5 teams in contention will not be afforded that luxury. So they benefit, however wether the 'finals' is a good thing is another debate.
I must admit I'm starting to like it. This competition would be over now (from an interest point of view) without the finals. Plus, if it was a straight league I suspect that teams would sign more foreign players to ensure that they're less affected during the Autumn Internationals and 6N, whereas currently most clubs use these periods to introduce young english players.
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It's getting quite worrying that North keeps getting these head injuries.
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It's getting quite worrying that North keeps getting these head injuries.
I'd been holding off a response to this until I got the video: https://vimeo.com/123623981
I don't think you can say much about that one, I have no idea if he leaves his knee in or not, but regardless ofany other concussions if you take a hit like that you're out, it's happened to me a couple of times and I've never had any worries beyond coming off and missing a week.
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Good first half from Glaws, showing how to play against Irish sides, aggressive in the tight and running kicks back. Connacht aren't a great Irish side but you can see that by nullifying the up and under they can't work out how to get into the glaws 22 because they don't have the quality at 10, 12 and 13 to create gaps. If England had approached the game like that I think the result in Ireland could've been very different.
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and no they're making the same mistakes that England made, kicking the ball away too much and letting Connacht slow things down in the tight.
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Phew, made hard work of that. Semi against Ex probably.
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Phew, made hard work of that. Semi against Ex probably.
Yeah good result, not sure who the TV gave as man of the match but for me Kvesic was absolutely immense in the first half and the last 15, the little spell where he didn't dominate on the floor was where Connacht got themselves back into it.
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Saints choked... gutted.
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It was Kvesic and it is Ex.
I am no Bath fan but would be mad as hell if I was, the ref gave them nothing yesterday. The Irish teams always seem to get the favours.
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It was Kvesic and it is Ex.
I am no Bath fan but would be mad as hell if I was, the ref gave them nothing yesterday. The Irish teams always seem to get the favours.
It always happens, the Irish have built their game around being hugely cynical at the breakdown but pointing the ref at everything the opposition do to counter them. At some point soon a ref is going to go against them big time and start calling out the regular infringements, I'm hoping it happens in a massive game (England vs Ireland Semi at the world cup or similar). The blocking off at the breakdown is the one for me, watch how many times an Irish players gets up on the wrong side after making a tackle and takes an extra half a second to realise where they are. That's not error or coincidence but if the other team does the same the irish support players make a big show of running into the man to show that he obstructed them.
I've said it before, I fucking hate Irish rugby, the sooner they get found out for the cynical 1-trick ponies they are the better.
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This thread has gone very quiet with the season largely dead until the playoffs, so time to give it a bump. Really good game between saints and sarries, the former will be very relieved to have got back on track after a shitty few weeks, pretty much guaranteed a home semi now, 4th place is looking like it's going to the last weekend, which is great.
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This thread has gone very quiet with the season largely dead until the playoffs, so time to give it a bump. Really good game between saints and sarries, the former will be very relieved to have got back on track after a shitty few weeks, pretty much guaranteed a home semi now, 4th place is looking like it's going to the last weekend, which is great.
I watched most of the saints v saracens game. It was telling that saints came into the match in the final third due to their freshness having had a week off. It was a good example of how much harder it is for English clubs to compete in the european matches versus fresh Irish/Welsh clubs. To be honest I would not change the system as it forces english clubs to promote youngsters but it was a pretty stark difference.
Are sarries always that dull to watch?
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Yes, Sarries are always that dull, it's why I find it so annoying that England have, at times, decided to build their team around the sarries backs who basically just play as loose forwards. It can be effective (it's largely the same game plan the Irish national team uses, with a few less up and unders) but it's like Pulis football, after a while even if you're winning it starts to get annoying watching your team grind things out all the time.
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Agreed Sarries play bland functional rugby and the worry is England go that way.
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This thread has gone very quiet
That's because egghandball is shite.
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Seriously, I can see why someone who dislikes rugby doesn't post in this thread, it is after all a football forum. Another option is to give a reasoned argument with examples, but to post that is vacuous, if not argumentative.
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Good decision Manu, so he's out of World Cup. I kind of applaud this stance from Lancaster. Makes the competition for centres interesting now.
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Good decision Manu, so he's out of World Cup. I kind of applaud this stance from Lancaster. Makes the competition for centres interesting now.
Yes, although I seem to remember Danny Care getting numerous chances.
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I see Glos have a scratch side out tomorrow resting players for the play offs. I feel a drubbing coming on.
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Good decision Manu, so he's out of World Cup. I kind of applaud this stance from Lancaster. Makes the competition for centres interesting now.
Probably convenient as it removes one selection headache for Lancaster. Assaulting police officers is quite serious for a professional sportsman though.
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I wouldn't say convenient, as in form he's a huge threat. But you can't do what he did.
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I think it does save a headache. He hasn't got the brains to play 12 but they'd have put him there to allow Joseph to play 13 which, in my opinion, would've been a massive fuck up.
12 is still a discussion point, I'm personally a massive fan of Burrell but his game needs the pack to be producing quick ball and I don't think we're doing that so it would be better to pick a kicking option. I'd like to have seen Slade get some time at some point as he'd be the perfect option if we wanted to go that way. This is why letting Barritt get so much game time has put us in a tough position.
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So a Saracens Bath final, what does one do? Hope the roof caves in?
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Regardless of personal preferences a Bath win is for the good English rugby, the longer it goes with sarries and tigers failing to win things the better, those 2 clubs are the biggest ties to 10 man percentage rugby left in the country and we really need to move on from that.
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Bath and Swracens were the two keenest teams for the salary cap investigation to be dropped.
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I hope Stuart Lancaster watched the Glos Connaught game. Jonny Mays try at the end of a brutal match was amazing. That is what a real winger looks like Lancaster.you can keep your up the jumper beefcakes.
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Fucking hell Hartley cited now.
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Something in nothing, cited on reputation alone.
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I've been trying to find it and I honestly can't find any footage that shows anything, I agree with lovejoy, it looks like one that's because it's Hartley not because of what happened, unless there's a camera angle that hasn't been released which shows something we've all missed.
Watched both games this evening and I'll add a few thoughts:
Ford, JJ and Watson are awesome, that should be 10, 13 and 15 for a long time.
Sarries won in exactly the manner I expected, they push the rules to the very limit themselves and spend the entire game in the refs ear pointing out the opposition doing the same. The penalty they scored in the first half was a great example, tackler made no attempt to roll away or let go of the player but somehow they got the penalty because he didn't let go of the ball, it's pretty easy to win the breakdown when you can get away with that.
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4 week ban for Hartley for moving his head towards someone, the TV official and the ref both watched it at the time and saw nothing to even justify a sin-bin, which was the correct decision, if you give a ban for that type of offence then I could review any game in the league and come up with 3-4 bans every week. To me this is a punishment to Hartley for being Hartley rather than for what he did.
I'm not saying it wasn't a bit silly but it's something so common and minor that you just can't single out an occurrence and apply a ban like this, I'm half convinced some of the higher ups in English rugby want Lancaster to pick Youngs ahead of him and because it's not going to happen on talent they're finding other means, just like the ridiculous over-reaction by Wayne Barnes cost him a Lions place.
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Thing is it may be harsh, but Hartley knows he needs to hold himself to higher standards due to his previous record. I don't really have much sympathy for him. Hopefully missing the first game won't be too crucial.
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Hartley being dropped for World Cup now.
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Was away for the weekend, I agree he needs to hold himself to a higher standard but for me if the ref and tmo look at something and decide it's not even a sin-bin to go back and give a 4 match ban is just plain wrong, and wouldn't have happened to anyone else.
The bigger consequence is that Youngs will now start for England and whilst he's good in the loose his throwing and hooking isn't good enough for international competition, so for me this harms our chances in a world cup where we've already got enough things against us. if I thought he'd be willing to risk Cowan-Dickie starting I'd be a lot less concerned.
Gutted for Gloucester losing in overtime, made the problems for themselves by throwing risky passes when they were on top though. Not happy that Sarries won the final, they embody the type of rugby I can't stand to watch and it just backs up Lancaster's decision to build the England team around them which is the wrong approach for the players we have to pick from.
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That'll be Cipriani out of the World Cup now. I am staggered by the stupidity of some of these players leading up to a home World Cup.
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Let's wait and see what comes out of this one, it does sound like he's been very silly but there's nothing like enough info about it yet. It is monumentally stupid though to play so brilliantly on sunday afternoon and get yourself a safe spot in the world cup squad and then get arrested a little more than 12 hours after the game. Cipriani has never been the sharpest tool in the box though.
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Unrelated to the latest goings on but have a meeting with Adam Balding next week about doing some work for him.
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RIP Jerry Collins very sad.
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RIP Jerry Collins very sad.
Terrible news
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Terrible news, RIP.
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Sad news indeed..
My mate knew him when he played a couple of games at Barnstaple. If I remember correctly at that time he represented the BaaBaa's and asked Barnstaple RFC if he could wear their socks...I think in the programme it said the club next to his name.
He also did some coaching there.
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http://www.northdevonjournal.co.uk/Barnstaple-RFC-release-Jerry-Collins-statement/story-26642560-detail/story.html
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England U20 into the final yet again, Jennings, Chisholm and Ewels were outstanding, the latter 2 are definitely going to make the main squad within a year or 2, Jennings might struggle because of the sheer depth we have at 10.
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I watched the 2nd half of the U20 final and it was very even with NZ just edging it. England played quite well, with a back-row player getting numerous mentions for turning over NZ ball. He did it at least twice in the period I was watching. They were suggesting that he could replace Tom Wood in the future so presumably a Saints player.
Howard Packman, another Saint, made some good breaks too.
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I watched the 2nd half of the U20 final and it was very even with NZ just edging it. England played quite well, with a back-row player getting numerous mentions for turning over NZ ball. He did it at least twice in the period I was watching. They were suggesting that he could replace Tom Wood in the future so presumably a Saints player.
Howard Packman, another Saint, made some good breaks too.
Lewis Ludlum, he's been training with Wood and Dowson for a few years and has picked up a lot from them, he'll be an excellent player, him and Charlie Ewels were the stars in this U20 squad, Packman will be a good player as well but he didn't get enough ball with space in front of him to show how good he can be.
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I watched the 2nd half of the U20 final and it was very even with NZ just edging it. England played quite well, with a back-row player getting numerous mentions for turning over NZ ball. He did it at least twice in the period I was watching. They were suggesting that he could replace Tom Wood in the future so presumably a Saints player.
Howard Packman, another Saint, made some good breaks too.
It's worrying for World Rugby how the New Zealand production line keeps churning out excellent players. The AB's squad this year is looking very strong, with the greater training team of 45 being announced.
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I've said it before going forward I can see England, NZ and SA being along way ahead of the rest of the world, all 3 have such strong squads at all age groups now, Ireland, Wales, Aus, etc all have a solid 20-25 who can give the other teams a good game on their day but once they get injuries the backup is a significant reduction in quality. I can't imagine those sides handling the number of injuries England have been plagued with for the last 18months, for example.
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I've said it before going forward I can see England, NZ and SA being along way ahead of the rest of the world, all 3 have such strong squads at all age groups now, Ireland, Wales, Aus, etc all have a solid 20-25 who can give the other teams a good game on their day but once they get injuries the backup is a significant reduction in quality. I can't imagine those sides handling the number of injuries England have been plagued with for the last 18months, for example.
We should start sabotaging their chances by allowing a few more foreign marque signings (outside the salary cap) to play club rugby in the UK. It would strengthen the league and therefore mean that to succeed an English will need to be X% better. Plus is reduces the pool of players SA/NZ can choose from - the Man City tactic basically.
That said, it is a fine line, as I think the weird way club rugby is currently run has resulted in a lot of English players get opportunities to play (during 6N and the Autumn Internationals for example).
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I've said it before going forward I can see England, NZ and SA being along way ahead of the rest of the world, all 3 have such strong squads at all age groups now, Ireland, Wales, Aus, etc all have a solid 20-25 who can give the other teams a good game on their day but once they get injuries the backup is a significant reduction in quality. I can't imagine those sides handling the number of injuries England have been plagued with for the last 18months, for example.
We should start sabotaging their chances by allowing a few more foreign marque signings (outside the salary cap) to play club rugby in the UK. It would strengthen the league and therefore mean that to succeed an English will need to be X% better. Plus is reduces the pool of players SA/NZ can choose from - the Man City tactic basically.
That said, it is a fine line, as I think the weird way club rugby is currently run has resulted in a lot of English players get opportunities to play (during 6N and the Autumn Internationals for example).
I think the way club rugby is handled is pretty much perfect for bringing through young players and encouraging teams to build strongsquads based around English talent, it's working so I wouldn't make any changes in that regard. What I would like to see is an adjustment to the salary cap to remove the incentive to join French teams which has led to some of our players being made ineligible for selection under the RFU selection criteria (my thoughts on the use of those rules to continually ignore the best backrow forward in the northern hemisphere should be clear to anyone who has read this thread, especially when it's largely an excuse to keep pressure off the captain who is the weaklink in our pack).
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I could understand not picking English players if they were playing in Aus or NZ but some teams in France are closer to HQ than Newcastle.
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Kvesic is better than Robshaw as well and there are no such excuses to be used there.
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Kvesic is better than Robshaw as well and there are no such excuses to be used there.
True, but Kvesic has player for a side struggling in the bottom half, Armitage is winning domestic and european titles every season, and is the key man in the big games in those tournaments.
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I don't disagree that it is a great shame England don't make use of Armitage. I was more pointing out that you can strip the excuses cupboard until it is empty and there is still no good reason for Robshaw to be a starter.
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I don't disagree that it is a great shame England don't make use of Armitage. I was more pointing out that you can strip the excuses cupboard until it is empty and there is still no good reason for Robshaw to be a starter.
I don't know, it's not that Robshaw is a bad player, he's very useful in some games. The problems with having a 7 who likes to carry and stand at fist receiver is that if the opposition have a traditional 7 who is good at his job you'll lose 3-4 turn overs during the game and in general will get slower ball. When you have pace and invention in the backs quick ball is everything (this is also why I think Burrell hasn't settled at international level, he's not sure on the timing of his breaks because we can't get consistent quick ball from the floor).
Kvesic doesn't have the same quality in open play (although he did improve massively last season). Armitage is generally better at the stuff Robshaw is good at and on top of that he owns the breakdown, he's the most complete 7 I've seen for years and I'm pissed off that, at the very height of his career, he's being ignored because he lives the wrong side a 22mile stretch of water. I find it particularly annoying that the reason for the rule is that he can't attend sessions outside the international windows despite Toulon repeatedly stating that he would be allowed to attend so long as there was reasonable notice. They also agreed to let their best player go out on loan for a season so he could play, those are hardly the actions of a club that's not going to co-operate with the rfu
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The issue I take is that Robshaw being captain has meant he is undroppable for years now. He also plays the full 80 every match regardless if how it is going.
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The issue I take is that Robshaw being captain has meant he is undroppable for years now. He also plays the full 80 every match regardless if how it is going.
Exactly, that's a huge problem. The best I've seen from the back row was in Argentina where Robshaw didn't travel, everything just looked right. It also sums up Robshaw for me that he was the only National captain who didn't get selected for the Lions tour. What makes it worse is I don't think he's even a good captain
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For what it is worth, I was talking to Adam Balding about this the other week. He really is not a fan of Robshaw being captain or even being selected. He is of the view that Wood should be captain.
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For what it is worth, I was talking to Adam Balding about this the other week. He really is not a fan of Robshaw being captain or even being selected. He is of the view that Wood should be captain.
Wood was my choice all along, he's was Englands best player by a long way when the decision was being made but an injury meant Lancaster gave it to Robshaw and he's never been willing to give anyone else a look in, either as captain or at 7. He similarly decided at the very beginning that Farrell was his 10 for the world cup and his performances since have done little to change that, it's only a timely injury and some fantastic form from Ford that has made that one debatable.
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Next time I talk to Adam I will talk Lancaster. He has done alright but has an unfortunate proclivity to play it safe in my view.
He might have dropped out but Strettle in the squad as a winger is a good example.
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The Rugby World Cup features two games at Villa Park I have just observed on Central..Sept26 & 27. What are the ramifications for our pitch with huge prop forwards tearing it to pieces? Can it recover quickly. Anyone got any info on this?
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As long as it's not too wet the pitch should be ok. Most rugby pitches are in pretty good knick to be honest.
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As long as it's not too wet the pitch should be ok. Most rugby pitches are in pretty good knick to be honest.
This. If the groundsman is worth his salt, and there isn't an unseasonable amount of rain it will be impossible to tell within a week. With modern drainage the days of rugby teams tearing pitches to bits is pretty much gone at the highest level, look at somewhere like Leicester Tigers or Northampton saints, their pitches look as good as any football pitch.
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Tigers pitch was like a gluepot last season, more like a throwback to Derby County's pitch in the 70's
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Interesting that Australia won the Championship, which makes me a bit nervous for the World Cup. Also Argentina won in South Africa.
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Interesting that Australia won the Championship, which makes me a bit nervous for the World Cup. Also Argentina won in South Africa.
Not sure about that, Australia are a good side, just like we are, what this shows is that NZ and SA and as far ahead of the rest of us as they looked like being.
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Anyone going to Twickenham Saturday? Quite looking forward to a few beers on a Saturday evening in the sunshine.
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Anyone going to Twickenham Saturday? Quite looking forward to a few beers on a Saturday evening in the sunshine.
It just a pre-season friendly
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Do we need a separate RWC thread or will this one do ?
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Anyone going to Twickenham Saturday? Quite looking forward to a few beers on a Saturday evening in the sunshine.
It just a pre-season friendly
Thanks. There's me thinking the 6 Nations had started early. Friendly you say? Against France? No. Thought not.
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I really want Burgess to make it and become the bulldozing centre that he seems perfectly built to be but I really don't understand how his club form since switching codes justifies him starting in one of a limited number of world cup warm up games when we already have question marks over other centres who deserve the chance far more. I really hope he proves me wrong and runs over/through the french backline repeatedly but I struggle to see it as right for him to be given this chance.
Of the rest of the team I'm really happy with the rest of the borderline selections except for Alex fucking Goode who has had enough chances and has shown that he nothing like quick enough to play back 3 internationally, that particular blind spot of Lancasters is starting to really piss me off.
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Some big names dropped from the Welsh squad today; Hibbard, Phillips and Hook
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Some big names dropped from the Welsh squad today; Hibbard, Phillips and Hook
None of those are a massive shock if you've been watching them over the last few years.
Hibbard is noteworthy but he was an outside bet given it was as 3rd choice and they have the young guy at Cardiff (I think) that they're trying to bring into the squad so it's not entirely unexpected.
Phillips just isn't good enough (now for most people, or ever in my opinion) to get into the 23 and Hook doesn't have a good enough kicking game to fit the way they play which is why he's been behind Biggar and Priestland for a while anyway.
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I really want Burgess to make it and become the bulldozing centre that he seems perfectly built to be but I really don't understand how his club form since switching codes justifies him starting in one of a limited number of world cup warm up games when we already have question marks over other centres who deserve the chance far more. I really hope he proves me wrong and runs over/through the french backline repeatedly but I struggle to see it as right for him to be given this chance.
Of the rest of the team I'm really happy with the rest of the borderline selections except for Alex fucking Goode who has had enough chances and has shown that he nothing like quick enough to play back 3 internationally, that particular blind spot of Lancasters is starting to really piss me off.
I hope Burgess somehow does something remarkable. On Goode it is infuriating, I hope Cipriani takes his spot.
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Watson, Slade, May and Clark have all put down markers for the WC squad here. Burgess has been brilliant in defence but he still hasn't worked out how to attack at 12. Goode showed very early on why I don't think he's good enough for international rugby and May bailed him out with some brilliant defence.
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Well worked try for May
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Clark should of ruled himself out of the World Cup. I have got zero tolerance for poor discipline there is no excuse.
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The scrum has been a real worry in the second half.
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Good to get a win, but major worries about the forward replacements. I like to see Watson and May playing, as they're both try scoring wingers.
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Clark should of ruled himself out of the World Cup. I have got zero tolerance for poor discipline there is no excuse.
Was never a yellow, the guy was rolled out by brooks not by Clark pulling on his neck. Clark has had discipline issues but I don't think it is fair to say he's out of squad for that.
I think the main difference between the teams was that they were slightly fitter, but that's okay given it's a month from the WC. On the other hand we had far more class, when we got Watson into the game we ripped them to bits.
I'd like to see Watson at 15 and JJ on the wing outside Slade next week but I doubt he'll try it.
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That was, shall we say, a frustrating performance.
I'm concerned that Lancaster seems to want to pick Farrell over Ford. I assume Ford will play in Paris which is a much tougher audition compared to what Farrell has just had - and in my opinion was pretty average. Too much kicking away, especially when on the front foot.
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I think Ford will be first choice. If you look at this team it was more experimental on the whole.
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I think Ford will be first choice. If you look at this team it was more experimental on the whole.
Agreed. But based on tonight it is not inconceivable, probably likely, that France will win next week. I can see Lancaster using that as his justification to select Farrell v Fiji... In isolation that decision would not be too bad, however it would ignore all the positive from last year, where Ford was looking close to World class. The Bath v Saracens final will also be used as justification.
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I think Ford will be first choice. If you look at this team it was more experimental on the whole.
Agreed. But based on tonight it is not inconceivable, probably likely, that France will win next week. I can see Lancaster using that as his justification to select Farrell v Fiji... In isolation that decision would not be too bad, however it would ignore all the positive from last year, where Ford was looking close to World class. The Bath v Saracens final will also be used as justification.
What tonight showed is that the eagerness to get rid of Hartley is misplaced and Parling isn't up to it anymore. That coupled with Mako not being great in the scrum and Brookes showing a bit of inexperience meant they dominated the front 5. The benefits of that, oddly, we're that they were funneling in and leaving us 1on1 out wide, which is suicide against the pace and footwork of our wings.
Hit post by mistake, the point I was getting at is:
in that situation a fly half who is happy to default to kicking anything in his own half and kick away after 7-8 phases can work in that type of game, no decent side in the world cup will give Watson and May that much time and space unless there's gaps around the breakdown which 9 and 10 are using, it's the lack of threat from Wiggy and Farrell in those areas which makes them both very limited and makes the decision from France to defend so tight at times so strange.
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If Brooks has broken his wrist that's him done. Again with Hartley he's a good player, but I don't have much sympathy his poor disciplinary record is something he should have dealt with years ago.
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If Brooks has broken his wrist that's him done. Again with Hartley he's a good player, but I don't have much sympathy his poor disciplinary record is something he should have dealt with years ago.
Hartley's a difficult one, the last couple of big bans were both, in my opinion, bans for Hartley the person rather than bans for the offence and they've cost him a place with the lions and a place in the world cup. I might be being rather cynical but I can't help feeling that both were intentional. If you look at the length of bans given to most players in those circumstances they always happen to end a week or 2 before the tournament, with him they've been calculated to force him out.
The Brookes one was odd, an 'egg' like that is usually from a kick rather than a break so I wonder if the player who runs across him caught him and the following 'collapse' was because it hurt rather than being the cause of the injury. We'll have to see what comes out from the camp but it would be a massive shame if he misses out as he's a far better prospect coming off the bench than Wilson.
For next week we need to go stronger and closer to the team we expect to see in the world cup. The 'best' front 5 (Marler, Youngs, Cole, Launchbury and Lawes) haven't played together for a while so they should start the next 2 for me.
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Just back from Twickenham.
Was there any explanation on TV as to why the truly abysmal referee didn't send the French 12 off for the trip? We all assumed because the ball was already dead anyhow? He was gash.
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Just back from Twickenham.
Was there any explanation on TV as to why the truly abysmal referee didn't send the French 12 off for the trip? We all assumed because the ball was already dead anyhow? He was gash.
He refused to even watch it back despite the TV official and the touch judge both asking him to, it was just shit. Given he gave 2 soft yellows (the Burgess one you just give them 10 yards and take it again, it happens all the fucking time; the Clark looked bad on the first angle but the reverse clearly showed the guy being pushed onto Clark by Brookes, and he just ignored it) to us it took the piss that he let that go. I'm also pissed off that he didn't even look at the Slade/Picamoles thing when both sides started to kick off. Wasn't a yellow but leaning your head into someone like that when they're on the floor is pathetic and is done to provoke a reaction, he should've reviewed it and told him to stop being a c**t. To me it was another case of a ref deciding early on that we were the team that was doing the silly shit and punishing us from that perspective rather than based on the actual incidents unfortunately that happens a little too often in rugby, particularly at the scrum and the breakdown where reputation matters too much (I've said it lots of times McCaw is the biggest cheat the sport has ever seen but no ref ever tkaes the blind bit of notice because "Richie McCaw's not like that, great guy!"). It's exactly the same as in football where Shearer never got a red card for elbowing despite jumping in with his elbows up 2-3 times every single game he ever played.
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Yesterday was fine from an experiment point of view, but from now on I think we should be getting out best 15 out where possible.
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Just back from Twickenham.
Was there any explanation on TV as to why the truly abysmal referee didn't send the French 12 off for the trip? We all assumed because the ball was already dead anyhow? He was gash.
(I've said it lots of times McCaw is the biggest cheat the sport has ever seen but no ref ever tkaes the blind bit of notice because "Richie McCaw's not like that, great guy!"). It's exactly the same as in football where Shearer never got a red card for elbowing despite jumping in with his elbows up 2-3 times every single game he ever played.
I pretty said much the same thing on Sat night.....
UTV
The Doc
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From the way Lancaster talks I think Burgess is going to make the squad.
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From the way Lancaster talks I think Burgess is going to make the squad.
I think so too, I just hope it's at the expense of Barritt and not Burrell, Barritt and Burgess as our only options at 12 is sending a very clear message of our intentions.
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If it's a choice between Barritt and Burrell they'll pick Barritt I suspect.
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If it's a choice between Barritt and Burrell they'll pick Barritt I suspect.
We'll take 4 centres, we have 2 13s in JJ and Slade and 4 12s in Barritt, Burgess, Burrell and 12trees. For me the latter is already out of the running, his form just hasn't been good enough for the last year. If that's right my big concern is that Barritt and Burgess is basically 2 guys who are there to defend, Burgess has the potential to do much more but his inexperience is a big problem. If we do then need to change things the only real alternative is Farrell at 12, which is a prospect that terrifies me.
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Farrell in the centres is an absolute no no.
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Much stronger pack for the return game:
Mike Brown;
Jack Nowell, Jonathan Joseph, Luther Burrell, Jonny May;
George Ford, Ben Youngs;
James Haskell, Chris Robshaw (capt), Billy Vunipola;
Joe Launchbury, Courtney Lawes;
Joe Marler, Tom Youngs, Dan Cole
Replacements: Jamie George, Mako Vunipola, David Wilson, Dave Attwood, Nick Easter, Danny Care, Danny Cipriani, Billy Twelvetrees.
I think that's 7 of the starting 8 with Wood in for Haskell the only change.
In the backs I really hope they find a way to get Burrell into the game and give him a chance to show why he deserves a place, his running lines and timing are his key qualities and too many times they haven't secured the ball well and he has no idea how long it will take to come out, which nullifies him far too much in the important 2nd and 3rd phase game where he can be devastating.
I'm happy with the back 3 but I think I'd have liked to see Cips get a start at 15 to see if he can offer the same intelligence as Goode but with the extra yard of pace that's needed against the better sides. Despite all the praise Goode is getting right now (which is massively over the top anyway, Slade was far better than him as a creative influence) the 1 time they tested his pace May pulled him out of the fire and it's not an isolated thing, he's been caught out as slow and 'on-his-heels' (defensively) in pretty much every game he's played for England.
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Goode is going to go to the World Cup sadly. I think Cip is a much better option.
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Goode is going to go to the World Cup sadly. I think Cip is a much better option.
I agree and I think it's as big a mistake as Steffon Armitage not being there. Those 2 decisions are, in my opinion, going to cost us the chance of winning the world cup at home, I just can't see us being able to compete with NZ, SA or Australia when we meet them at the business end of the tournament, we're still trapped in our safety first Northern Hemisphere approach where a centre who can tackle is considered more valuable than one who can break tackles.
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Shit day in football and cricket so far, so let's hope the rugby boys turn up.
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Fingers crossed, I have England to win with a-7 handicap and JJ to get the first try, worth a few pennies if it comes in and wouldn't b a massive shock given the respective sides.
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The French are well on top. Our discipline is terrible.
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Well this has been pretty horrendous so far
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Very worrying half. Need a big response.
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Forwards are getting crushed again. This is a desperate and very worrying display.
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Shit day in football and cricket so far, so let's hope the rugby boys turn up.
Nope. The shit sandwich of a day continues.
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Our set piece has fallen apart completely. At the moment our World Cup plans are in tatters.
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Cipriani needs to go to the World Cup.
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Absolutely dire up front. Only positives were Cipriani looked very threatening and if we give good service to the backs they would cause problems for any team.
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They almost pulled that out at the end. That was a nicely controlled passage of play to work their way almost to the French goal line.
I agree that Cipriani should go to the RWC. He has that added bit of flair and unpredictability
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Cipriani has to go. It's a major concern that both the forward pack last week and this week were crushed. Also we have four hookers none of whom can throw.
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Cipriani has to go. It's a major concern that both the forward pack last week and this week were crushed. Also we have four hookers none of whom can throw.
I refer to my comment from last week, Lancaster, the RFU and some fans were so desperate to see Hartley out of the squad that none of them stopped to think about whether we had anyone remotely capable of replacing him in the team and the truth is that we very clearly don't. The most frustrating part is that both Cowan-Dickie and George might become good Hookers but when they look around and see Webber and Youngs as the standard required to play internationally it does nothing to motivate them to learn how to throw or hook the ball.
Aside from that, from the little I saw in the pub it was an utterly piss poor performance on a piss poor pitch that yet again highlights the fact that Robshaw can't play against a side who are fighting for the ball on the floor. Clarke last week showed for about 50-60minutes how to play 7 at international level (his sin bin turned the game and we struggled to wrestle control back) but still he'll insist on sticking with his captain and the truth is it will see him out of a job in 2 months when we get bossed in the QF or SF by a team they have spotted the glaring hole in our game and gone full out to exploit it.
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The only positive from the last night is that it should have eliminated any sense of complacency from them. They are not as bad as they performed yesterday. But that should be a massive kick up the arse.
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Not posted on here for a while but what an absolute dogs breakfast our coaching team have made of selection and preparation for this World Cup.
This is a tournament in which we ought to have a real good chance of success but through stubbornness and placing character, leadership, defensive ability over all else, we're probably going to end up being gallant losers in the knockout stages. If we get out of the group stages that is.
Lancaster made great store over saying that players had the chance to secure a spot in the squad f they played well in the two warm ups. No one has played better than Slade and Cipriani and yet all the noises point to both being left out. We are going into the tournament with JJ, Burrell, Burgess and Barritt!!!!! As someone said on Twitter, we are an injury to JJ away from Tindall and Noon Mark 2.
I didn't want Lancaster when he was appointed and although I hope I end up eating humble pie, I reckon I won't want him in 2 months time. Beggars belief we've gone into the last 2 World Cups with two coaches who've had barely any experience at the top level.
Here's hoping
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I think last weekend has led to the belief we're worse than we are. I'm pretty confident that our forward pack will never play that badly again. We can't judge Lancaster on anything other than his word yet in terms of people having a chance to impress. He will hopefully pick Cipriani in particular. I think he is a terrific option to change a game, as Saturday showed. We can't afford not to have him as an option.
I still think we have a good chance in this World Cup, especially as all our games are at Twickenham. It's just critical that the forwards turn up, we get the centre pairing as right as it can be and we take Cipriani.
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The issue that he won't address is 7, the best sides in every world cup have been the ones with a genuinely nasty bastard at 7 who skirts on the edge of the rules and does everything he can to piss off the opposition. When we won it We had Neil Back who wasn't a good player but he was a good cheat. New Zealand have Richie McCaw who again is a very good cheat (but is a very good player as well). Robshaw is too nice and nothing like aggressive enough. We've got away with the latter because of Hartley but now they've binned him we don't have a nasty forward, Clarke showed the difference it makes. For me it's summed up when you hear the various captains talking to ref on over the mic, Robshaw is all like 'please sir, if you wouldn't mind just maybe considering that he might not be allowed to do that, your decision of course and I don't want to complain, in fact sorry for bringing it up'. All the rest 'can you keep an eye on him doing that shit'.
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Sounds like common sense may prevail and Hartley to get a call up by the sound of it, Graham Rowntree making heavy hints in an interview today.
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Sounds like common sense may prevail and Hartley to get a call up by the sound of it, Graham Rowntree making heavy hints in an interview today.
It's a shame common sense didn't prevail when the ban was handed out, it was never a 4 week ban, it didn't deserve red at the time and should've been left at that, which is what would've happened for pretty much anyone else.
He can only be called up for an injury replacement though so I wonder who is going to pick up an unexplained injury just after the Fiji game.
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Sounds like common sense may prevail and Hartley to get a call up by the sound of it, Graham Rowntree making heavy hints in an interview today.
What did he say?
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Sounds like common sense may prevail and Hartley to get a call up by the sound of it, Graham Rowntree making heavy hints in an interview today.
What did he say?
"Going forward, we never discount the possibility of Dylan coming in, if required, as long as he has served his ban."
"I trust Dylan. He played in the last game of the Six Nations for us. He is fit.
"I have been in touch with him regularly and he would be able to come in and slot in if we need him."
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Sky Sources, Cipriani will be left out. Typical, so the question is what was the point in him being involved.
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My issue with the Cipriani thing is that you shouldn't come out and say everyone has a chance to impress, then give a player 15 minutes in which he completely changes the game and then still not give him a chance. I like Lancaster in general, but there are too many favourites in the squad.
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My issue with the Cipriani thing is that you shouldn't come out and say everyone has a chance to impress, then give a player 15 minutes in which he completely changes the game and then still not give him a chance. I like Lancaster in general, but there are too many favourites in the squad.
See I don't particularly like him and never considered him to be experienced enough to deserve the job. I also had concerns that he was too 'Leicester' in his approach to the game and that we see us playing 10man percentage rugby where players are dropped for what they can't do rather than picked for what they can do. He's largely filled the squad, from 1-12, with solid 7 out of 10 players who can do a job but aren't creative or dangerous against a set defence. yes we have some quality outside but they get so little good ball that they're largely wasted.
We might do well in the world cup but I genuinely think a good head coach would have seen us going into this with 2 6nations grand slams behind us and as clear favourites, not as outsiders for a semi-final place.
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See I don't view him as harshly as you and I also think it's worth remembering what a state we were in after the last World Cup. We were an absolute shambles and he has pulled that around. I just think that he has blind spots for certain players, which is an issue.
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Corbiesero misses out then. I'm glad to see Slade there, but Burgess is going to have to do seriously well to make his selection worthwhile.
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Hmmm I hope Parling starting is just because Launchbury still needs easing back.
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It's a big game for us tomorrow. If we beat Ireland, the forwards front up and the midfield combo works it'll give us a lot of confidence. As an aside I think it's a disgrace that Wales and Australia don't have to name 3 specialist hookers. They can essentially use a weakness to their advantage.
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Much much better so far. Ford doing well, May and Watson looking dangerous and Parling having a good game.
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Much better today. Parling really helped the set piece. Barritt and JJ actually looked a good partnership. Ford, May and Watson cemented their places. Still a few more things to work on, but much more positive.
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Injury worries for Wales as Halfpenny and Webb are stretchered off
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/34165330
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I'm hoping Launchbury will be ready for Wales and Aus, because he's class.