Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Mr Speedy H on May 12, 2014, 10:47:43 AM
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...but I want Lambert to stay.
As Villa fans we all know one thing. The last three seasons we have been more than lucky. We have avoided relegation by the skin of our teeth which is not good enough for the mighty Aston Villa.
However.
When you look at it Lambert was bought in to do one thing: minimise the wage bill; a task made infinitely difficult by the fact he had to completely restructure a team, and throw out the crap from the previous two, three, even four seasons, purchased at high prices on ridiculous wages. It's clear to see that some of PL's signings were also utter rubbish and didn't work out the way he planned, but you show me a club where every single signing has worked out perfectly. On the other hand, there are a few good players that have worked out.
PL's tactics weren't perfect either but I'd love you to show me a manager who gets every decision spot-on. We're playing in the most advanced, quickest, most aggressive, talented and spectacular football league in the world. Things will never always go in our favour.
I'd be stupid if I said that we're not a struggling club and there were times this season when I literally sat down and worked out how likely we were to be sent down, which ended with a 'highly likely' most of the times. For the last three seasons we've been flirting with relegation and I think that's something Lerner has realised. He knows we can't carry on with little to no investment or we'll end up like Leeds, Wigan, Portsmouth, and start on a steep and slippery slope to the lower leagues.
I'm fully aware that continuing in this state will send us down, it's obvious and it doesn't take a genius to see it, but I just think sacking Lambert will be us wasting a good manager. The club is as good as sold (according to a lot of people in a lot of places), so let someone come in who will allow Lambert a bit more freedom and money, and I'm sure he'll do a better job. If, by Christmas, he's not stepped things up then I'll be the first to say he should go, but I firmly believe now is not the time.
Before you start ripping me apart, I'm not saying that another manager wouldn't have done a better job but with the task ahead I think a few of them would have run away without reaching the end of the interview. Which is something I admire PL for. He actually stepped up to the plate and took this job on. It's not been easy, and he's perhaps not done it to the standard that us Villa fans would like, but there is one thing that we can all thank him for: He's kept us in the Premier League.
I just wanted to share my opinion.
Love & hugs.
Mark
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I agree, with the imminent sale, a degree of stability is needed. Unless a billionaire is coming in to throw around huge sacks of cash, we are better off with the devil we know.
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'...tactics weren't perfect...'
An understaement of monumental proportion.
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Happy to be in this minority.
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Well I agree with you. If Benteke had been fit all season we'd have finished much higher up.
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For me, any manager who loses over two legs to a fourth division team, doesnt deserve to be the manager of Aston Villa
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Well I agree with you. If Benteke had been fit all season we'd have finished much higher up.
Maybe, he did only get ten goals when he was fit, and really didn't look like the player of last season. He is still young though, and most players don't peak until their late 20's good news is that he will surely be with us next season.
I agree with a lot of what Mr Speedy said. Lambert took over at a very bad time, having to rebuild almost a whole side with very little money too spend. His signings have been mostly miss and overall I think he is struggling to make the step up to a bigger club. But there have been small signs than if he had the backing than he could still do a good job. I too would give him until Christmas (that is if new signings were made), but its moot now anyway as if we get sold then I think a new manager will be in change next season.
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We've finished as the team who've played the most long balls in a division containing Allardyce and Pulis, and in the service of a joy-sucking relegation fight. That's utterly unacceptable.
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He has been unlucky with injuries, and been dealt a tough hand (as was McLeish) in relentlessly cutting costs and losing our sense of direction as a result.
But he's a busted flush now with us, not all his fault maybe but thems the breaks. Looking on the upside, he can check his bank account and see that he's a multi millionaire. He'll cope.
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Time to get Alan Sugar on his ass.
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The Karsa Culverhouse situation alone looks like meriting the P45 to me.
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Yes, i think he should go also, without doubt. I'm not sure he will, or indeed whether its a good idea to do anything until the club is sold though.
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The Karsa Culverhouse situation alone looks like meriting the P45 to me.
I agree
what was he doing when this was going on .
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can just say that I am Speedy's pharmaceutical distributor
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I can see this getting merged with the Lambert thread soon as it will be the same things said on both.
I think Lambert has had a harder job than most of us thought, however, whether he's had to cope with financial restraints, injuries, his backroom staff fucking him over or whatever else may or may not be going on, it's no excuse for the utter dross style of football we play most weeks.
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Lambert says it was a tremendous achievement to stay in prem
with the team third from bottom finishing with 33 points ?
He should have gone with the other two twerps ( is that a word )
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I was with the OP until about a month ago but not now.
I wanted badly for it to work with Lambert but the combined weight of the Karsa/Culverhouse saga, dreadful results and performances and baffling tactics mean the quicker he moves on the better IMO.
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In the modern era of football it's almost impossible to find a club who stick with a manager for longer than a year. Look at Fulham - they were struggling so got through three managers in one season. That's atrocious, personally.
How are managers meant to learn, adapt, improve themselves, if they get sacked after one run of bad performances? This is another reason why I'm proud of Aston Villa. They stuck with Lambert even though we were struggling and it's (sorta) paid off as we're still in the Premier League, and on the brink of a sale with a much healthier and attractive wage bill.
As for the long balls stat: although that's surprising, it's not unexpected. We had a very inexperienced team who, at times, panicked and resorted to hoofing the ball up the pitch. When you're in a losing situation and you panic, you don't think about playing the ball across the floor to a nearby player - you get it out of the danger area.
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The 'in the know' pundits all seem to think that Lambert is doing a good job. 15th and 38 points is woeful for Aston Villa. However, I think any manager would have struggled with the squad we have. I can't believe that if he had the option of signing players who are established at the top level he would have still chosen to gamble on League One players. Part of me thinks he should be given the opportunity to show us what he can do with a more realistic budget and then I think not as he has presided over some deeply embarrassing results. To be honest unless we have some real investment in the playing staff then I can't see the point in changing the manager. Pulis or Allardyce would keep us up but they aren't going to please the fans. As it stands the club needs a lot of changes before we even think about ditching the manager.
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...and then I think not as he has presided over some deeply embarrassing results.
Yes, but then we also have some excellent results. Arsenal, Manchester City and Chelsea spring to mind.
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stability is needed ?
jesus wept
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...and then I think not as he has presided over some deeply embarrassing results.
Yes, but then we also have some excellent results. Arsenal, Manchester City and Chelsea spring to mind.
true but not many , not as many as palace and sunderland etc etc and still can not believe we won the Man city game . I was over the moon with chavski result , not sure we would have won it with will I am not being sent off.
I thought we were good against Liverpool , my favourite performance but there was so many terrible performances too . We broke every awful record this year and our better players have been the ones were MON's signings.
I just can not believe how backwards we have gone since the first two games .
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My issue with Lambert now is the fact his 2 assistants are no longer at the club, the two men he's had by his side since he set out as a manager. How does he go about replacing them if they're the only 2 guys he's ever worked with? Whoever he was to recruit now would almost be undergoing a trial, something Villa cannot afford to take the risk in doing. We should thank Cowens and Given for stepping up in the short term but do any of us really believe they're the men for the job in the long term?
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...and then I think not as he has presided over some deeply embarrassing results.
Yes, but then we also have some excellent results. Arsenal, Manchester City and Chelsea spring to mind.
I agree. Do they outweigh Bradford,Sheff Utd,Millwall, Wigan at home, 8 zip at Chelsea though? I'm nowhere near being anti Lambert but he has been very fortunate with the patience the fans and the board have afforded him. For me he hasn't been given the chance to showcase his ability as a manager. Whether the last two seasons have affected him is the concern
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Lambert is well out of his depth. He still would be even with a bigger budget. He's got no tactical nous at all and 9/10 makes the wrong decision.
Keep him at the club and we're just setting ourselves up for another season of struggle. The more we flirt with relegation, the more chance we'll eventually go down.
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Lambert is well out of his depth. He still would be even with a bigger budget. He's got no tactical nous at all and 9/10 makes the wrong decision.
Keep him at the club and we're just setting ourselves up for another season of struggle. The more we flirt with relegation, the more chance we'll eventually go down.
With the current squad it is inevitable. Personally I think managing to keep that group of players in the top flight is an achievement. If the entire squad was put up for sale tomorrow i'd say only three or four would go to Premiership clubs.
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He lost it with me when he had the gall to tell me that we needed a No 10 and then further patronised by explaining what one was and did before finally not signing one despite everyone on God's green Earth saying we needed one for the previous 18 months!
10 home losses/20 Premier League defeats in a season/0-8/Bradford/Millwall/Sheffield United/ less points
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...and then I think not as he has presided over some deeply embarrassing results.
Yes, but then we also have some excellent results. Arsenal, Manchester City and Chelsea spring to mind.
The problem is, those matches you mention consist of one third of our entire win count, and we managed to lose more than half the matches we played this season - P38 W10 D7 L21.
They were good results and performances, yes, but they're of limited use if you go on to get your arse comprehensively handed to you by the likes of Fulham, Palace or Stoke, all of whom did the double over us.
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Lambert is well out of his depth. He still would be even with a bigger budget. He's got no tactical nous at all and 9/10 makes the wrong decision.
Keep him at the club and we're just setting ourselves up for another season of struggle. The more we flirt with relegation, the more chance we'll eventually go down.
With the current squad it is inevitable. Personally I think managing to keep that group of players in the top flight is an achievement. If the entire squad was put up for sale tomorrow i'd say only three or four would go to Premiership clubs.
He bought most of these players and chose to alienate established Premier League players at the club. He spent almost 40 million in two summers as well. Not a great deal, but not peanuts either. Instead of the 13-14 players he bought, he could have bought half as many players who were better quality.
Ultimately, results fall on the managers head. Look at what Pulis managed at Palace with a poorer squad and less money. And Pulis is an average manager.
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...and then I think not as he has presided over some deeply embarrassing results.
Yes, but then we also have some excellent results. Arsenal, Manchester City and Chelsea spring to mind.
true but not many , not as many as palace and sunderland etc etc and still can not believe we won the Man city game . I was over the moon with chavski result , not sure we would have won it with will I am not being sent off.
I thought we were good against Liverpool , my favourite performance but there was so many terrible performances too . We broke every awful record this year and our better players have been the ones were MON's signings.
I just can not believe how backwards we have gone since the first two games .
Things like that is just being negative for the shake of it. We fully deserved that win against Chelsea, yes things might have been different without the sending offs, but that is Football, we played our part, the rest is fate.
There's been so many down points this season can we at least enjoy the few highs...
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...and then I think not as he has presided over some deeply embarrassing results.
Yes, but then we also have some excellent results. Arsenal, Manchester City and Chelsea spring to mind.
The problem is, those matches you mention consist of one third of our entire win count, and we managed to lose more than half the matches we played this season - P38 W10 D7 L21.
They were good results and performances, yes, but they're of limited use if you go on to get your arse comprehensively handed to you by the likes of Fulham, Palace or Stoke, all of whom did the double over us.
I also wouldn't be holding out too much hope of matching our results against the big boys next season. So if results stay similarly shite against the shit teams, then we'll be cutting it even finer by the end of next season, or worse, we'll go down.
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Lambert is well out of his depth. He still would be even with a bigger budget. He's got no tactical nous at all and 9/10 makes the wrong decision.
Keep him at the club and we're just setting ourselves up for another season of struggle. The more we flirt with relegation, the more chance we'll eventually go down.
With the current squad it is inevitable. Personally I think managing to keep that group of players in the top flight is an achievement. If the entire squad was put up for sale tomorrow i'd say only three or four would go to Premiership clubs.
He bought most of these players and chose to alienate established Premier League players at the club. He spent almost 40 million in two summers as well. Not a great deal, but not peanuts either. Instead of the 13-14 players he bought, he could have bought half as many players who were better quality.
Ultimately, results fall on the managers head. Look at what Pulis managed at Palace with a poorer squad and less money. And Pulis is an average manager.
Just playing devils advocate here. Like I said I don't think given the choice he'd have signed League One players had he been able to sign established stars. As for his signings, wind back twelve months and Lowton and Westwood were being talked about as future England players. Benteke as a £30m striker and we were signing Okore which was viewed as a real coup. Nobody minded Hutton and Ireland being bombed out as they were 'shit' or had an attitude problem. Guzan had showed why he deserved to oust Given as number one and everything looked rosy. This season it has gone tits up. Benteke and Okore (assuming he is as good as people were saying) being injured is a huge reason we've finished down in 15th place. Lambert has been left trying to polish a turd.
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...and then I think not as he has presided over some deeply embarrassing results.
Yes, but then we also have some excellent results. Arsenal, Manchester City and Chelsea spring to mind.
The problem is, those matches you mention consist of one third of our entire win count, and we managed to lose more than half the matches we played this season - P38 W10 D7 L21.
They were good results and performances, yes, but they're of limited use if you go on to get your arse comprehensively handed to you by the likes of Fulham, Palace or Stoke, all of whom did the double over us.
Don't make us even shitter than we actually are, we drew 8, yes EIGHT, and only lost 20!
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...and then I think not as he has presided over some deeply embarrassing results.
Yes, but then we also have some excellent results. Arsenal, Manchester City and Chelsea spring to mind.
The problem is, those matches you mention consist of one third of our entire win count, and we managed to lose more than half the matches we played this season - P38 W10 D7 L21.
They were good results and performances, yes, but they're of limited use if you go on to get your arse comprehensively handed to you by the likes of Fulham, Palace or Stoke, all of whom did the double over us.
Don't make us even shitter than we actually are, we drew 8, yes EIGHT, and only lost 20!
Good point.
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...and then I think not as he has presided over some deeply embarrassing results.
Yes, but then we also have some excellent results. Arsenal, Manchester City and Chelsea spring to mind.
true but not many , not as many as palace and sunderland etc etc and still can not believe we won the Man city game . I was over the moon with chavski result , not sure we would have won it with will I am not being sent off.
I thought we were good against Liverpool , my favourite performance but there was so many terrible performances too . We broke every awful record this year and our better players have been the ones were MON's signings.
I just can not believe how backwards we have gone since the first two games .
Things like that is just being negative for the shake of it. We fully deserved that win against Chelsea, yes things might have been different without the sending offs, but that is Football, we played our part, the rest is fate.
There's been so many down points this season can we at least enjoy the few highs...
we did , I was over the moon but palace looked better against them when they played them . I just saying there was not a lot to get excited about really , Its been bloody awful to be honest.
And Lambert does not deserve any longer to be manager of Aston Villa.
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I think Lambert signed some pretty good players, actually - last season we saw what Westwood and Lowton can do when on form - but his coaching and tactics are so terribly inadequate that these players actually got worse the more we were exposed to them.
We have to wise up. We cannot accept, in 20-twatting-14, a manager who thinks that long balls to a big man are an acceptable attacking tactic, a manager who doesn't trust the idea of wingers, a manager who plays five at the back at home, a manager who thinks he's onto something novel with this 'number 10' concept and proceeds to patronise us all to death about it.
MON was stuck in the '70s, and it showed. Lambert is stuck in the '90s, and it's showing. We need a manager who understands the game as it's played now, and as fans we need to get out of our puritanical, skill-mistrusting, ploddy English biases and start to demand more thought and higher standards from our manager.
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I think Lambert signed some pretty good players, actually - last season we saw what Westwood and Lowton can do when on form - but his coaching and tactics are so terribly inadequate that these players actually got worse the more we were exposed to them.
We have to wise up. We cannot accept, in 20-twatting-14, a manager who thinks that long balls to a big man are an acceptable attacking tactic, a manager who doesn't trust the idea of wingers, a manager who plays five at the back at home, a manager who thinks he's onto something novel with this 'number 10' concept and proceeds to patronise us all to death about it.
MON was stuck in the '70s, and it showed. Lambert is stuck in the '90s, and it's showing. We need a manager who understands the game as it's played now, and as fans we need to get out of our puritanical, skill-mistrusting, ploddy English biases and start to demand more thought and higher standards from our manager.
With this subject, I'm always put in mind of Charlie Aitken talking on the official history video about what a shambles we were in the 60's, and in particular how we plodded on playing the w formation when 442 was taking over.
Some things never change.
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I can see this getting merged with the Lambert thread soon as it will be the same things said on both.
I think Lambert has had a harder job than most of us thought, however, whether he's had to cope with financial restraints, injuries, his backroom staff fucking him over or whatever else may or may not be going on, it's no excuse for the utter dross style of football we play most weeks.
I'm inclined to think that the things listed are a pretty convincing set of excuses!
We've seen some moments of promise with Lambert, and on a very tight budget.
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Rolta many of the things you say are correct, but it has to be acknowledged that he really thinks long balls constitute a valid attacking method, that his 'I call them number 10s, number 10s I call them' stuff was incredibly embarrassing, and that he has absolutely no long-term vision for how we should play and it shows in the muddled performances they cack out every week.
He has this in common with almost every other failing manager over the last season - Moyes, Sherwood, Hughton, Pardew - and stands opposed to every successful manager this season in this regard - Pochettino, Rodgers, Martinez, even Pellegrini (AVB is the anomaly here, and there might be more to that story than initially meets the eye). These things are not coincidences.
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I can see this getting merged with the Lambert thread soon as it will be the same things said on both.
I think Lambert has had a harder job than most of us thought, however, whether he's had to cope with financial restraints, injuries, his backroom staff fucking him over or whatever else may or may not be going on, it's no excuse for the utter dross style of football we play most weeks.
I'm inclined to think that the things listed are a pretty convincing set of excuses!
We've seen some moments of promise with Lambert, and on a very tight budget.
His backroom staff fucking him over is no excuse at all, really.
If Lambert did know what was going on, that's terrible for allowing it to do so in the first place and for letting it continue. If he didn't know what was going on, then that's probably worse. Neither of those cases make good reading for him.
The long ball tactics thing the players were unhappy about, for example, did he know about that?
If he didn't ask C and K to train the team in them, why did he not stop it? And not knowing they were doing it is not an excuse - every single one of us noticed the endless hoofing that went on. Didn't Lambert? Didn't he think, "Hang on, what's going on here?" and look into it?
I agree, he is in an unfortunate position now, it's not nice for anyone to know what direction their career is going to go in and to be left in limbo like this, with the chance at any point that you'll get sacked. I feel bad for him on that front. On a personal level, I actually like the bloke. All that shit about him mumbling and saying the same things over and again to the media, I don't really give a toss about.
I was also totally behind him at the end of last season, and I also wanted him here in the first place. It's just that, right now, if I think of reasons he shouldn't get the sack, I can think of hardly any.
There is no suggestion that he deserves the sack for not getting this squad into the top eight or anything daft, it is a dreadful squad, injuries have played their part (mind you, a CB in January rather than Grant fecking Holt would have been sensible), but Lambert has managed to pull from that squad even less than you'd expect from them this season. Poor management, baffling tactics, you can't just write these off because we've had some injuries.
Another point regarding the awful squad, lest we forget, these are mostly players he bought himself. If there is a limit to wages, you are always going to be forced to shop in certain markets, but I struggle to see why he'd waste money on Bowery, Helenius, Tonev, Kozak and co when he could have addressed the glaring problem position instead.
Nice bloke, reasonable first season, but a truiy awful second one, in which he's amassed some of the least impressive statistics in the history of this club. Not nearly good enough, even when you take into account mitigating factors, I'm afraid.
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...but I want Lambert to stay.
As Villa fans we all know one thing. The last three seasons we have been more than lucky. We have avoided relegation by the skin of our teeth which is not good enough for the mighty Aston Villa.
However.
When you look at it Lambert was bought in to do one thing: minimise the wage bill; a task made infinitely difficult by the fact he had to completely restructure a team, and throw out the crap from the previous two, three, even four seasons, purchased at high prices on ridiculous wages. It's clear to see that some of PL's signings were also utter rubbish and didn't work out the way he planned, but you show me a club where every single signing has worked out perfectly. On the other hand, there are a few good players that have worked out.
PL's tactics weren't perfect either but I'd love you to show me a manager who gets every decision spot-on. We're playing in the most advanced, quickest, most aggressive, talented and spectacular football league in the world. Things will never always go in our favour.
I'd be stupid if I said that we're not a struggling club and there were times this season when I literally sat down and worked out how likely we were to be sent down, which ended with a 'highly likely' most of the times. For the last three seasons we've been flirting with relegation and I think that's something Lerner has realised. He knows we can't carry on with little to no investment or we'll end up like Leeds, Wigan, Portsmouth, and start on a steep and slippery slope to the lower leagues.
I'm fully aware that continuing in this state will send us down, it's obvious and it doesn't take a genius to see it, but I just think sacking Lambert will be us wasting a good manager. The club is as good as sold (according to a lot of people in a lot of places), so let someone come in who will allow Lambert a bit more freedom and money, and I'm sure he'll do a better job. If, by Christmas, he's not stepped things up then I'll be the first to say he should go, but I firmly believe now is not the time.
Before you start ripping me apart, I'm not saying that another manager wouldn't have done a better job but with the task ahead I think a few of them would have run away without reaching the end of the interview. Which is something I admire PL for. He actually stepped up to the plate and took this job on. It's not been easy, and he's perhaps not done it to the standard that us Villa fans would like, but there is one thing that we can all thank him for: He's kept us in the Premier League.
I just wanted to share my opinion.
Love & hugs.
Mark
Is that you Paul?
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I really, really really hate these vague thread titles that give no clue as to the subject matter. I shall take my grievance to another thread.
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Rolta many of the things you say are correct, but it has to be acknowledged that he really thinks long balls constitute a valid attacking method, that his 'I call them number 10s, number 10s I call them' stuff was incredibly embarrassing, and that he has absolutely no long-term vision for how we should play and it shows in the muddled performances they cack out every week.
He has this in common with almost every other failing manager over the last season - Moyes, Sherwood, Hughton, Pardew - and stands opposed to every successful manager this season in this regard - Pochettino, Rodgers, Martinez, even Pellegrini (AVB is the anomaly here, and there might be more to that story than initially meets the eye). These things are not coincidences.
Spot on.This is the big change in English football.Swansea's visit this season had me longing for that type of football ,they played us off the park but poor finishing let them down.Lambert's record prior to joining Villa had me hailing him as the Messiah but his football is almost a rehash of MON's.To be fair he recognises the need for an extra player in midfield,a number 10,but the players he has put behind the main striker,Weimann,Bacuna ,Albrighton and even Agbonlahor at times ,are woefully unsuited to that rτle.West Hoolahan,not the greatest nor the right age,showed for a while against us the movement ,prompting and finishing needed for that position.Lambert like Moyes is not a bad manager but they seem to be yesterday's men
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The absolute worst thing to happen would be to get rid of the manager now, with the future of the club in limbo. Once that is sorted the managerial situation will take care of itself.
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If we were getting beaten narrowly with a squad looking focused and fully committed to the cause, with a consistent design to our play I'd be willing to maybe give him the benefit of the doubt. However, we have been getting destroyed which suggests either a) the manager doesn't prepare properly, and/or b) the players no longer believe in his direction. Being so easily a number of goals down as it was again at the weekend and that inept level of display has become a problem that is repeating itself and not an isolated incident. I respect anyone who wants to keep him on as manager due to other circumstances, but I don't agree with retaining him any longer.
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The absolute worst thing to happen would be to get rid of the manager now, with the future of the club in limbo. Once that is sorted the managerial situation will take care of itself.
Indeed. He fully deserves the sack, in my opinion, but as things stand right now, I'd say the managerial situation is one of the least important issues with this level of flux going on
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Most of the players are off for a couple of weeks in the sun so Lambert's role is minimal. I don;t think Randy wants to string this out and my guess is he'll have already put the feelers out ahead of the official statement anyway.
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The absolute worst thing to happen would be to get rid of the manager now, with the future of the club in limbo. Once that is sorted the managerial situation will take care of itself.
I think with the club now up for sale whoever takes over will give Lambert a chance to prove himself initially, if it doesn't work they can sack him relatively cheaply as he'll have less than 12 months on his contract.
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stability is needed ?
jesus wept
Better than instability surely?
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with respect Gerrin I think the last thing a new owner is going to do is stick with what we have, as clearly none of it, or very little, is worth sticking with. I get the feeling Lambert will walk if he gets no assurance from Randy of reasonable transfer funds and as we know,as Randy's selling he's not likely to put his hand in his pocket very deeply, if at all. Celtic or someone like Leeds beckons for PL and I think that would serve his career better in the long run rather than toughing it out at VP
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The absolute worst thing to happen would be to get rid of the manager now, with the future of the club in limbo. Once that is sorted the managerial situation will take care of itself.
I think with the club now up for sale whoever takes over will give Lambert a chance to prove himself initially, if it doesn't work they can sack him relatively cheaply as he'll have less than 12 months on his contract.
My guess, and that's all it is a guess before anyone gets all indignant, is that Lambert will be here at least until Christmas. He will do his reputation no harm by showing loyalty now so, even if a new owner wants his own man, he will leave having been seen to be trustworthy.
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I think Lambert signed some pretty good players, actually - last season we saw what Westwood and Lowton can do when on form - but his coaching and tactics are so terribly inadequate that these players actually got worse the more we were exposed to them.
We have to wise up. We cannot accept, in 20-twatting-14, a manager who thinks that long balls to a big man are an acceptable attacking tactic, a manager who doesn't trust the idea of wingers, a manager who plays five at the back at home, a manager who thinks he's onto something novel with this 'number 10' concept and proceeds to patronise us all to death about it.
MON was stuck in the '70s, and it showed. Lambert is stuck in the '90s, and it's showing. We need a manager who understands the game as it's played now, and as fans we need to get out of our puritanical, skill-mistrusting, ploddy English biases and start to demand more thought and higher standards from our manager.
This is the best post I've seen on here in a while. Absolutely spot on. And hopefully new money - employing someone in a similar position to Txiki Begiristain at Man City - will recognise this too and made the according appointment. Too long we've been stuck in the stoic, 'Little England', 4-4-2 shaped rut that MO'N made 'ok' again during his time here. We've signed two more managers who try to replicate it - and look how that has turned out over the last three years. Even Tony Pulis has evolved as a manager in the last season (this shows in the long ball stats you mentioned) - the game has moved on and the incoming owner and manager(?) will hopefully see that we have not moved with it, and do something about it.
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I think Lambert signed some pretty good players, actually - last season we saw what Westwood and Lowton can do when on form - but his coaching and tactics are so terribly inadequate that these players actually got worse the more we were exposed to them.
Absolutely - what I've been saying for a while as well.
Given the financial constraints under whcih Lambert appears to have been working, his acquisition policy has been reasonable (although why he couldn't see the need for a couple of experienced MF to provide a framework in which the less experienced players could operate is beyond me).
It's always been his coaching and tactics - those things for which he was lauded at Norwich - that have let him down at Villa.
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Tactically he is at best naive, at worst clueless. You can point to results against Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal and the like to prove me otherwise but you won't convince me they were much more than flukes.
To me, wanting Lambert to stay is that classic British thing of bigging up the underdog, wanting to blame poor results on anything but the actual cause. I like the guy, and he's probably as wound up right now as it's possible to be, but he was one of the reasons why we're terrible, and I would like to see a change in manager, transfer policy (before or after a takeover - I maintain there are others who might spend the pitiful amount he had in a different way or use the loan system more productively) and tactical thinking. This group of players cannot be as bad as they've been made to appear; some individuals are not PL standard but others are playing well within their ability.
That said, whatever Lambert said to make Christian Benteke sign a new deal must have been something very good indeed.
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So is this the thread for people who want him to stay and the other one for people who want him to go? Perhaps the existing one could be renamed I must be in the majority to make it clear.
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Tactically he is at best naive, at worst clueless. You can point to results against Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal and the like to prove me otherwise but you won't convince me they were much more than flukes.
To me, wanting Lambert to stay is that classic British thing of bigging up the underdog, wanting to blame poor results on anything but the actual cause. I like the guy, and he's probably as wound up right now as it's possible to be, but he was one of the reasons why we're terrible, and I would like to see a change in manager, transfer policy (before or after a takeover - I maintain there are others who might spend the pitiful amount he had in a different way or use the loan system more productively) and tactical thinking. This group of players cannot be as bad as they've been made to appear; some individuals are not PL standard but others are playing well within their ability.
That said, whatever Lambert said to make Christian Benteke sign a new deal must have been something very good indeed.
How the hell do you get three results like that and all of them being flukes? If you play well, and get your tactics right then how is that a fluke. It is those results and performances which make the season all more of a let down.
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stability is needed ?
jesus wept
Better than instability surely?
Not if that stability is a stable pattern of barely managed decline.
Yes he's been restricted in the transfer market, but it was also him that chose to ostracise Given and to an extent Hutton, that resulted in us paying out north of £50K per week on non-playing assets whilst paying a further what
£5-10K on replacements. (Steer and one of Lowton or Bacuna).
Going through 3 left backs in 2 seasons.
He could have used his budget on fewer more experienced players, and supplemented with our own academy graduates.
How many young players carriers, not to mention his own has he damaged over the last 2 seasons because he chose to ignore any option of experience other than Vlarr and to an extent KEA, denying the younger players a chance to adapt to this level, whilst being helped and guided through games by some older heads instead of the sink or swim approach we've seen?
Result? Just about treading water, but the current looks like pulling us under unless someone throws us a lifeline.
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I think Lambert signed some pretty good players, actually - last season we saw what Westwood and Lowton can do when on form - but his coaching and tactics are so terribly inadequate that these players actually got worse the more we were exposed to them.
Absolutely - what I've been saying for a while as well.
Given the financial constraints under whcih Lambert appears to have been working, his acquisition policy has been reasonable (although why he couldn't see the need for a couple of experienced MF to provide a framework in which the less experienced players could operate is beyond me).
It's always been his coaching and tactics - those things for which he was lauded at Norwich - that have let him down at Villa.
I agree that he's signed decent players in general, to me that's shown by the fact that, by and large, when we've played well and got points it's been on the back of individual brilliance rather than tactical excellence. The sheer number of quality goals we've scored in the last 2 seasons backs this up.
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How the hell do you get three results like that and all of them being flukes? If you play well, and get your tactics right then how is that a fluke. It is those results and performances which make the season all more of a let down.
I think flukes in terms of the way we set up is a little unfair. If you look at where we've gained most points this season, it's been in games where the opposition have been willing to really push up against us and leave space for us to counter. Still more a case of the opposition allowing us to play to our one strength, rather than us imposing our game on the opposition.
Fluke might come into it when you look at why we could only raise ourselves for so few games to actually make use of our one tactic.
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I think Lambert signed some pretty good players, actually - last season we saw what Westwood and Lowton can do when on form - but his coaching and tactics are so terribly inadequate that these players actually got worse the more we were exposed to them.
Absolutely - what I've been saying for a while as well.
Given the financial constraints under whcih Lambert appears to have been working, his acquisition policy has been reasonable (although why he couldn't see the need for a couple of experienced MF to provide a framework in which the less experienced players could operate is beyond me).
It's always been his coaching and tactics - those things for which he was lauded at Norwich - that have let him down at Villa.
I agree that he's signed decent players in general, to me that's shown by the fact that, by and large, when we've played well and got points it's been on the back of individual brilliance rather than tactical excellence. The sheer number of quality goals we've scored in the last 2 seasons backs this up.
If he signed such good players who out of Tonev, Bowery, Helenius, Kozak, Bacuna, Luna were regular starters this season? Arguably, Kozak off the bench [and possibly regular after Benteke injury] and Baccuna, although out of position. I doubt any other manager in the Prem got in six players to "strengthen the squad" in the summer of last year and couldn't play any of them regularly.
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Luna was a regular for the first half of the season (although we didn't have muich choice in the matter), Kozak was appearing regularly, as was Bacuna as you mention. Bowery was signed the season before and was always a bit of a punt. Okore would've been a regular but was out for half the season.
So from last summer you're left with Steer, who was always signed as a backup, Helenius who was pretty clearly signed with an eye on the future (I expected to see more of him but I never thought he's be a regular) and Tonev who's had a lot of subs appearances but just hasn't settled well enough to deserve more.
On top of that, the point of saying he's bought pretty well but not used the players well is that we've not seen the players used very well so far. Benteke has been used excellently and looks like a genuine world class talent, aside from that I don't think he's got the best out of any of his signings. Lowton, Bennett, Bacuna all have the potential to be good fullbacks but the defensive shape and lack of coaching has left them isolated and looking out of their depth. Westwood has been good with the ball but defensively suspect, again the shape of the team and the coaching is largely at fault.
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I can see this getting merged with the Lambert thread soon as it will be the same things said on both.
I think Lambert has had a harder job than most of us thought, however, whether he's had to cope with financial restraints, injuries, his backroom staff fucking him over or whatever else may or may not be going on, it's no excuse for the utter dross style of football we play most weeks.
I'm inclined to think that the things listed are a pretty convincing set of excuses!
We've seen some moments of promise with Lambert, and on a very tight budget.
We've also seen him regularly outgunned by far more modest sides in this division and lower down. That's why the resources/ wage constraints line doesn't wash with me, I'm afraid.
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I suppose if the sale drags on for a few months it is almost akin to an audition for Lambert. If we are sitting comfortably in the top half a new owner might leave it to see how it plays out. If we are struggling then he is more likely to make a quick decision.
An early deal to sell probably means that Lambert will follow Lerner out the door.
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I'd like to see Lambert given a good crack at it. I think it would make sense to keep him on for the sake of transition, anyway. He knows who needs to be bombed out and he knows where the squad needs strengthening. I backed him from day one and I'd give him 2014-15 and a proper kitty to prove himself. I can understand why folk want him gone, though.
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who needs to be bombed out ? Most the players he has signed
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For me, any manager who loses over two legs to a fourth division team, doesnt deserve to be the manager of Aston Villa
And losing to Millwall and Sheffield United in the FA Cup.....
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Oh God that Millwall game. Best thing about the Bradford 2nd leg was my mate falling over on the ice running into the ground, luckily meant we missed the first 15 minutes.
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Managers have lost their job for less than losing 22 games in one season.
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It has never simply been a question of "Lambert out".
The club still is carrying significant levels of debt. Whether Lerner will write that, or part of it, off, and whether new owner will clear the balane sheet is unknown.
There is every prospect of us under new ownership, but similar financial constraints. The football under Lambert has been dire. I was with a boxholder who is giving up the facility next season because not only can he not justify the expense, but people will not come as guests for free!
But would the league position be much different under anyone else? I am not so sure.
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It has never simply been a question of "Lambert out".
The club still is carrying significant levels of debt. Whether Lerner will write that, or part of it, off, and whether new owner will clear the balane sheet is unknown.
There is every prospect of us under new ownership, but similar financial constraints. The football under Lambert has been dire. I was with a boxholder who is giving up the facility next season because not only can he not justify the expense, but people will not come as guests for free!
But would the league position be much different under anyone else? I am not so sure.
And my thoughts it could be worse!
There's too much obsessing over "the Bradford game" the Millwall game" – I've supported Villa long enough to see us and other teams get knocked out of the cups by utter tripe. Against Bradford it was pretty much boys vs. men (look at our team). Even playing as badly as we did we still would have won if their goalkeeper didn't have a dream game in the away game. And do you know what, I'm not even making excuses. What I'm saying is shit happens. We also beat Man City in the same competition that year and beat them this year too. Beating Man City doesn't make Lambert the best manager in the world, just as losing to Bradford doesn't make him the worst manager in the world.
Also, we were on course to better last season this year until that awful six game run. That also happens to football clubs – they go on bad runs. They lose to shit teams. Sometimes the players don't perform.
I do want Lambert to stay for the reason I began with. I genuinely think that for the money he has had to spend, and the amount of money he has cut from our wagebill we are just about, if not a little better, than we should be. Maybe we deserved to be relegated thinking we could survive in the premiership on the cheap. We do have a young team now, and they're on low wages, so we can move on those that don't work and see who comes the other way.
What would have happened this year if Okore, Kozak and Benteke had been fit? (Sure Beteke was fit for a while, but he was injured a fair amount, and when he was fit he didn't always look it)
But that isn't an excuse either – players get injured. Some players get injured all season. But if they were fit I think we would have been in a better position rather than a worse position.
As for the quality of football. I agree that we have been horrible to watch for 87% of the season, but at least with Lambert (last season) we saw he would try and play in a more entertaining way, the way he played at Norwich. I genuinely don't think we have the squad yet, and I think he might have tried to make us more solid this year, which has been at the expense of a few ropey performances. We were better defensively this year. Having said that, I think Nathan Baker has been responsible for about 16 goals this season.
Who knows how it would have been if Tonev had worked out? And that's not an excuse either – when you buy plenty of cheap players not all of them are going to work out. Considering we've averaged about £2million for every player, then I think we've got our moneys worth from plenty of them. The problem is having a team where the average spend on players has been £2 million each. What do you all expect to happen!? We are the epitome of a budget side: no creativity, make mistakes, lose to lower league teams, play shit football.
The problem has never been Lambert – the problem is a lack of investment. Losing money on the stupid MON/Eck legacy wage bill has been a part of the cause for the lack of investment. Lambert really has done a job there. We're still a work in progress as far as I'm concerned.
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Lambert has never been the only problem, and I doubt you will find many people on here who will suggest he was.
The recruitment and wages policy is another one.
As for Lambert trying to get us to play entertaining football - first season, yes, but last season? My main memory is endless hoofing at Benteke. Or the space where Benteke used to be, after his injury.
Does he want us to play entertainingly? I thought so, yes, but if that's the case, how come his coaches were instilling long ball tactics into the squad - which resulted in endless long balls through the season?
As for better defensively - for a short while, yes, but it's hard to look at the number of games in which we conceded three or more goals and take much solace from that.
Don't get me wrong, I am instinctively pro Lambert, not anti, but I don't see how you can just discount the terrible football, the long balls (more than anyone in the league), the weird substitutions, the fact his coaching staff were cocking things up so much, the truly baffling tactics, the litany of records for shitness broken, and the horrible results quite so easily.
Yes, wages policy is a massive issue, but Lambert delivered even less than he should have with the resources he has, and we went backwards qualitatively on the first season. I don't see how you can write that off so easily.
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I share some of the OPs sentiments but can find little excuse for:
Going 4-0-6 formation chasing a game over two legs against 4th level Bradford
Most of his signings not being up to it - especially as regards pace (Lowton, Westwood, KEA) which is a very important factor in modern PL football.
Too much hoofball to a big man when we've seen that the team can knock it about a bit at times.
Under use of promising youth players who can't be any worse than some of the dross he signed.
The Karsa/Culverhouse thing
Breaking pretty much every bad record for Villa in the top level
Various other tactical and defensive horror shows
He might do better with a bigger budget, but those faults will still be there.
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All the things you guys say come down to the budget, imo.
We haven't got good enough players, and he changed our style to make us more solid. We were definitely more solid – how many last minute goals did we let in last season? I don't like it, but you have to compare last season to this season and see that we were never in the relegation zone, and technically we've been safe all season. We didn't need to go on a run to get us out of trouble like last year – this year we went on the exact opposite and had a period where we were awful (often without Benteke, although he played at Man U, Stoke), and we still stayed up by about 5 points.
It's been a strange end to the season, I admit. Things haven't progressed exactly the way any of us wanted. The fact is we are a budget team. Another fact is we have been much more unlucky with injuries this season than we were last season.
As for ktvillan and using more academy players – the fewer the better as far as I'm concerned. Who has really made it from our academy? The shining lights like Weimann, Albrighton, Baker, Clark most people want replaced in the team with better quality. And pace? This too comes back to averaging £2million on every player – you get what you pay for, and it's as simple as that.
Fuck records – we probably have the record for the youngest Villa team ever, and that explains away all your records. With young players you expect chaos, shock results, indifferent form.
None of us know the truth behind the Karsa/Culverhouse thing, and like the kitchen sink, it's coming from nowhere and being used as a stick to beat the manager.
As for tactics – basically, I think people who go into all that so ardently are armchair managers who think you know more than they do about running a football club in REALITY, and I think you take for granted things such as...the other team, the abilities of the other team compared to ours. Lambert was known as having tactical nouse at Norwich. After some games people come on here and go, "Lambert got it right" – the thing is there is such a fine line with all these things you guys bring up. "It was good tactics putting Weimann on Gerrard", our counter style beat Southampton away. We did what we needed to do against Hull, WBA, Chelsea – Man City in the league cup last year.
You're all so blinkered, and I think that comes from being hurt in a weird way. NOBODY likes what's going on with Villa at the moment, but I am totally convinced you all expect too much from the budget and circumstances.
If Lambert left now we're in a better position than when MON left, when Houllier left and when Mcleish left (financially mainly – and because the players we may not want are on low wages, and thus won't cripple the club).
Ktvillain: "Most of his signings aren't up to it" – but the buys average out at £2million. That's an average, but in truth there are players like Beteke, Kozak and Okore who were all bigger investments. Without them the other players would average about £1.6million. And as I said earlier, what do you expect from that level of investment? It wouldn't even buy you a Michu!!!
That last bit was a joke. We all are well aware that Lambert was given this job with financial constraints and with a task to get rid of the high earners. He has done that (bar Hutton, Given, Bent and Z'Zogbia), and with the small amount of money he had available he had to start building a squad AND keep us in the premiership. He has done that. Good job. Now he needs investment and experienced players, because none of us want to go through another season like that.
And it's rubbish saying "he should have bought a centre back in january" or anything like that, because anyone who says it are guessing about the money available and what was actually attempted. We need more than a centre back – we need a central midfielder more and an attacking midfielder more than that.
Oh, and we finished higher this season than last season, so that's progress.
And because Lambert played attacking football with Norwich and US last season there is reason to believe that once he has the quality of players to do so, he will do it again. That requires investment. And as for anyone who asks...why did we change the tactics this year, making us worse to watch – last season we really were almost relegated. That's an answer for you. Anyway, this current shit style isn't like it was with Mcleish who throughout his career was known for being negative – it doesn't have to stay.
None of this is as simple as you all make out. Take his Norwich team, add two years and decent levels of investment, and look at them – they're relegated. I bet they wouldn't be if Lambert never left. He'd probably have the Spurs job or something like now, and we'd be in administration and the Championship.
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As for tactics basically, I think people who go into all that so ardently are armchair managers who think you know more than they do about running a football club in REALITY, and I think you take for granted things such as...the other team, the abilities of the other team compared to ours.
How can anyone argue with a dismissive comment like that?
You're all so blinkered, and I think that comes from being hurt in a weird way.
Or that, for that matter.
And it's rubbish saying
Or that.
"And it's rubbish saying he should have bought a centre back in january" or anything like that, because anyone who says it are guessing about the money available and what was actually attempted.
And in that case, it's equally rubbish of you to suggest we did try or that there wasn't the money - when there was the money to borrow a fat, useless striker.
Oh, and we finished higher this season than last season, so that's progress.
The major problem with this is that we didn't finish higher this season than last. We finished 15th both years.
So it's not progress at all. It's not even progress in terms of points - three fewer than the previous season.
Unless of course you mean progress in the wrong direction.
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Lol, ok. I was expressing my opinion, and there is plenty in my post beyond the minor framing words. I'm sorry to doubt you – you are a tactical genius with experience managing a multi-million pound business of a football club. Ok then. My viewpoint is that I'm not going to lose my head over things when I don't have a clue what happened ("Should have signed a CB" – maybe they tried, maybe there was no money). I don't think signing Holt would have had an effect on the CB situation, by the way, but yes, that's my opinion on the matter. To form my opinion I didn't make up a statement like, "Signing Holt stopped us getting a CB".
For the record books:
Find me a younger Aston Villa team in history.
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As for tactics basically, I think people who go into all that so ardently are armchair managers who think you know more than they do about running a football club in REALITY, and I think you take for granted things such as...the other team, the abilities of the other team compared to ours.
How can anyone argue with a dismissive comment like that?
You're all so blinkered, and I think that comes from being hurt in a weird way.
Or that, for that matter.
And it's rubbish saying
Or that.
"And it's rubbish saying he should have bought a centre back in january" or anything like that, because anyone who says it are guessing about the money available and what was actually attempted.
And in that case, it's equally rubbish of you to suggest we did try or that there wasn't the money - when there was the money to borrow a fat, useless striker.
Oh, and we finished higher this season than last season, so that's progress.
The major problem with this is that we didn't finish higher this season than last. We finished 15th both years.
So it's not progress at all. It's not even progress in terms of points - three fewer than the previous season.
Unless of course you mean progress in the wrong direction.
I stopped reading his post after the first paragraph. It's got to be a wind-up.
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As for tactics basically, I think people who go into all that so ardently are armchair managers who think you know more than they do about running a football club in REALITY, and I think you take for granted things such as...the other team, the abilities of the other team compared to ours.
How can anyone argue with a dismissive comment like that?
You're all so blinkered, and I think that comes from being hurt in a weird way.
Or that, for that matter.
And it's rubbish saying
Or that.
"And it's rubbish saying he should have bought a centre back in january" or anything like that, because anyone who says it are guessing about the money available and what was actually attempted.
And in that case, it's equally rubbish of you to suggest we did try or that there wasn't the money - when there was the money to borrow a fat, useless striker.
Oh, and we finished higher this season than last season, so that's progress.
The major problem with this is that we didn't finish higher this season than last. We finished 15th both years.
So it's not progress at all. It's not even progress in terms of points - three fewer than the previous season.
Unless of course you mean progress in the wrong direction.
I stopped reading his post after the first paragraph. It's got to be a wind-up.
Ha! Of course! Isn't that typical of a bigoted opinion. Be proud.
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For the last game:
01 Guzan ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––free
34 Lowton––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––£3.3million
23 Bertrand–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––loan
15 Westwood––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––£2.2million
04 Vlaar––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––£3.3million
02 Baker––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––academy (and shouldn't be in the team ideally)
07 Bacuna (Robinson - 83' )––––––––––––––––––£880k
16 Delph––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––£6millionish (and with Vlaar about the only player you'd definitely keep)
11 Agbonlahor––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––academy (and he sometimes does well, but he doesn't score many goals, does he)
21 Bowery (El Ahmadi - 45' )––––––––––––––––––£500k
10 Weimann––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––academy (and you would have him on the bench if we had investment)
And what do any of you expect with that kind of investment in the team?
Someone do a comparison with Tottenham. We all know what it'd be like.
You basically expected a miracle from Lambert, and you're angry he hasn't achieved it yet. The thing is, Lerner knows this, and because of that I think Lambert is going to stay.
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Here is a comparison with Crystal Palace in their last game. I do this, because everyone is lauding Pulis as a genius:
26 Hennessey––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––£3.2million
03 Mariappa–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––£3.8million
02 Ward––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––£500k
15 Jedinak (Dikgacoi - 59' )–––––––––––––––––––––free
06 Dann––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––£1.6million
27 Delaney––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––free
11 Ince (Puncheon - 71' )–––––––––––––––––––––––free – but he's clearly worth something
28 Ledley––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––£3.8million
16 Gayle–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––£4.6million
29 Chamakh Booked (Murray - 74' )–––––––––––––––£1million
07 Bolasie––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––£500k (good signing)
It's pretty comparable actually, but if you go and see how many players Crystal Palace have bought have bought who are not in that team – averaging about 20 players a season – you'll see that buying low quality players requires you to buy plenty of them in order to get it "right". We've done 19 players over 2 seasons. We haven't even had their kind of investment. I wonder what their wage bill is like compared to ours if you discount our bomb squad? We have a stupidly young and underfunded team. They spent £10million more than us last season, and it's not like we were much better than one of the top championship clubs in 12/13, AND £10million of that was spent on Kozak and Okore, who were both mostly injured. Looking at that Crystal Palace spent about £20million more than us!
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Maybe we should have went for Altidore and Shelvey
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Rolta,
Is your real name Paul?
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Well I enjoyed reading Rolta's posts. Didn't agree with all points made but even so the fella has an opinion and this is a forum so fair play.
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Rolta,
Is your real name Paul?
Or do you have the initials IC, GK or PF?
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Lol, ok. I was expressing my opinion, and there is plenty in my post beyond the minor framing words. I'm sorry to doubt you you are a tactical genius with experience managing a multi-million pound business of a football club.
Crikey, not enjoying disagreement?
I am not a tactical genius with experience of managing a multi million pound football club, no.
Paul Lambert doesn't have to provide better tactics than me or you or anyone on here, though. He has to be better at it than other managers, managers his team come up against through the season.
How many times does he come out on top, tactically? Not enough. Not anywhere near enough.
Ok then. My viewpoint is that I'm not going to lose my head over things when I don't have a clue what happened ("Should have signed a CB" maybe they tried, maybe there was no money). I don't think signing Holt would have had an effect on the CB situation, by the way, but yes, that's my opinion on the matter. To form my opinion I didn't make up a statement like, "Signing Holt stopped us getting a CB".
But the point is, no, I don't know that they tried to get a CB, no, and neither do you. You don't think the Holt situation stopped us getting a CB, you equally don't know that for sure. It's about opinions.
My point was that - regardless of what they tried to do and didn't try to do - we didn't get a CB in during the transfer window. That's not an opinion or conjecture, that is a fact.
Anyway, I see you totally skipped the bit where you said we finished higher up the league so that's progress, and I pointed out that we finished in the same position, on three points fewer.
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You basically expected a miracle from Lambert, and you're angry he hasn't achieved it yet. The thing is, Lerner knows this, and because of that I think Lambert is going to stay.
No, that's the point.
You're engaging in arguments against viewpoints which nobody actually has.
Nobody has suggested we should have finished in the top six or made huge achievements. They're arguing that we made no progress - in terms of points, league position or qualitatively on the pitch this season - and that's why they are unhappy.
You can keep changing that to a more extreme argument that suits your standpoint if you want, but it's somewhat misleading.
You also seem to think you're a lone voice of sanity in a sea of madness, as you're the only one who has noticed the squad is full of shit, inexperienced or lower league players. You don't say?
Don't you think we've all noticed this? We've talked about pretty much nothing else all season. Don't you think we all know that the wages policy is a huge issue?
Where your standpoint differs is that you think what he has achieved is in line with what has has had to work with. Don't make it out as if we're saying the financial regime isn't a problem, though, because you're absolutely miles wide of the mark.
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I didn't mean to skip it. I don't have a problem admitting I was wrong about that one.
Anyway, I don't really fancy getting into a big argument on the internet. I think I've learned enough in life that the internet is full of people steadfast in their opinions! I just added my bit to it all. I have also read other people's opinions in full.
All good.
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You basically expected a miracle from Lambert, and you're angry he hasn't achieved it yet. The thing is, Lerner knows this, and because of that I think Lambert is going to stay.
No, that's the point.
You're engaging in arguments against viewpoints which nobody actually has.
Nobody has suggested we should have finished in the top six or made huge achievements. They're arguing that we made no progress - in terms of points, league position or qualitatively on the pitch this season - and that's why they are unhappy.
You can keep changing that to a more extreme argument that suits your standpoint if you want, but it's somewhat misleading.
You also seem to think you're a lone voice of sanity in a sea of madness, as you're the only one who has noticed the squad is full of shit, inexperienced or lower league players. You don't say?
Don't you think we've all noticed this? We've talked about pretty much nothing else all season. Don't you think we all know that the wages policy is a huge issue?
Where your standpoint differs is that you think what he has achieved is in line with what has has had to work with. Don't make it out as if we're saying the financial regime isn't a problem, though, because you're absolutely miles wide of the mark.
Bit patronising. I feel like you may be a hardened messageboard pro ;) You're confusing me getting a bit over excited over what I was writing about with me being a dick.
Anyway, yes you're right. The bit in bold is exactly where I'm at, thankyou for spelling it out! Possibly a bit patronising too.
And by the way, from my viewpoint, which is as acceptable as anyones – you're viewpoint, imo, does imply you expected a miracle. That was my point, yes.
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It's always the great unknown whether another manager would have done better under the same circumstances so it is possible to have these arguments without ever getting a concrete answer. My own opinion is that we've just endured one of the worst seasons in our history on the back of a very mixed bag of a season to put it kindly. The manager who has presided over these 2 doesn't deserve another chance regardless of the financial situation. We sacked McLeish for what Lambert's just done and there doesn't seem too much disagreement about his qualities.
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It's always the great unknown whether another manager would have done better under the same circumstances so it is possible to have these arguments without ever getting a concrete answer. My own opinion is that we've just endured one of the worst seasons in our history on the back of a very mixed bag of a season to put it kindly. The manager who has presided over these 2 doesn't deserve another chance regardless of the financial situation. We sacked McLeish for what Lambert's just done and there doesn't seem too much disagreement about his qualities.
Considering their tenures together actually reflects better on both of them, it suggests the problems at the club lay elsewhere.
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I'm guessing you are alluding to financial issues? Putting that aside, there is also the problems several managerial teams have had with coaching. Judged over the tenures of TSM 1 and TSM 2, standards have been woeful, to the extent that a lot of the playing staff seem worrying unfamiliar with what a football is, let alone how to play with one.
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Rolta, I admire your defence of PL. The spend list is worthy of note as is that he's been restricted in his efforts by things out of his control. That said, you haven't for whatever reason said anything about the standard of football he's served up. I'm well aware that he's been dealt a blow with key injuries but even so that shouldn't excuse him for the handling and behaviour of his coaching staff should it? Nor should it be used as an excuse as to why we can't seem to take a fucking throw in without making a balls of it. Nor should it be used as an excuse as a tactic to hoof the ball. Nor should it be used as an excuse for the back four to pass the ball around aimlessly until Baker gives it to the opposition. Nor should it be used as an excuse for a lack of movement when we have the ball in our possession. Nor should it be used as a excuse for the purchases of Tonev, Luna or Hellenius or the loaning of Holt who on what they have shown are no better than our reserves.
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I'm guessing you are alluding to financial issues? Putting that aside, there is also the problems several managerial teams have had with coaching. Judged over the tenures of TSM 1 and TSM 2, standards have been woeful, to the extent that a lot of the playing staff seem worrying unfamiliar with what a football is, let alone how to play with one.
Yeah, I am really, but in the context I outlined they could both argue that each others under performance mitigates their own.
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Where your standpoint differs is that you think what he has achieved is in line with what has has had to work with. Don't make it out as if we're saying the financial regime isn't a problem, though, because you're absolutely miles wide of the mark.
Bit patronising. I feel like you may be a hardened messageboard pro ;) You're confusing me getting a bit over excited over what I was writing about with me being a dick.
Anyway, yes you're right. The bit in bold is exactly where I'm at, thankyou for spelling it out! Possibly a bit patronising too.
I don't see why pointing out we're saying the same thing over something is patronising, to be honest, but hey ho.
I'm not suggesting you're a dick for disagreeing, not at all.
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Mat Kendrick: Paul Lambert's time at Villa should already be up (http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villa-end-season-report-7116263)
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Mat Kendrick: Paul Lambert's time at Villa should already be up (http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villa-end-season-report-7116263)
Then what, Mat?
Appoint a new manager, who will want the security of a decent contract, and lumber new owners with the compensation? Go into the new season without a manager?
I think it would be a stupid move to dismiss him while the ownership is in a state of flux. That doesn't mean it won't happen, I have given up thinking people in football act rationally.
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Indeed.
Whilst this "will we, won't we" situation persists, there's no point sacking or replacing a manager.
Which is another reason why we'd best all hope something is happening quickly. It's not even fair on Lambert - sackworthy though he may be - to have to put up with this level of uncertainty for too long. He's got his career to think about.
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You basically expected a miracle from Lambert, and you're angry he hasn't achieved it yet. The thing is, Lerner knows this, and because of that I think Lambert is going to stay.
No, that's the point.
You're engaging in arguments against viewpoints which nobody actually has.
Nobody has suggested we should have finished in the top six or made huge achievements. They're arguing that we made no progress - in terms of points, league position or qualitatively on the pitch this season - and that's why they are unhappy.
You can keep changing that to a more extreme argument that suits your standpoint if you want, but it's somewhat misleading.
You also seem to think you're a lone voice of sanity in a sea of madness, as you're the only one who has noticed the squad is full of shit, inexperienced or lower league players. You don't say?
Don't you think we've all noticed this? We've talked about pretty much nothing else all season. Don't you think we all know that the wages policy is a huge issue?
Where your standpoint differs is that you think what he has achieved is in line with what has has had to work with. Don't make it out as if we're saying the financial regime isn't a problem, though, because you're absolutely miles wide of the mark.
And apparently I'm a bigot!
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Mat Kendrick: Paul Lambert's time at Villa should already be up (http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villa-end-season-report-7116263)
Then what, Mat?
Appoint a new manager, who will want the security of a decent contract, and lumber new owners with the compensation? Go into the new season without a manager?
I think it would be a stupid move to dismiss him while the ownership is in a state of flux. That doesn't mean it won't happen, I have given up thinking people in football act rationally.
Agreed Chris.
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Mat Kendrick: Paul Lambert's time at Villa should already be up (http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villa-end-season-report-7116263)
Seeing how the media have been dealt with by the club over the past few seasons, I doubt he would have written that if he was not confident that PL will be gone this summer.
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Fair play Rolta for your lengthy defence of the man. I get the feeling though that he has had a free pass to a large extent in your eyes. What would he have had to do for you to want him gone? Only relegation, if even?
It's only towards the end of the season that the manager has finally started to admit we need investment and better players. But I believe from the moment he was aware of our interest in him becoming our manager two years ago, wage-bill and experience were barely a concern to him and he thought he'd thrive with the approach that served him well at Norwich - that you didn't need players who at played at the top level or had much experience to thrive in the Premier League. And he's been badly found-out on that score.
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Fair play Rolta for your lengthy defence of the man. I get the feeling though that he has had a free pass to a large extent in your eyes. What would he have had to do for you to want him gone? Only relegation, if even?
It's only towards the end of the season that the manager has finally started to admit we need investment and better players. But I believe from the moment he was aware of our interest in him becoming our manager two years ago, wage-bill and experience were barely a concern to him and he thought he'd thrive with the approach that served him well at Norwich - that you didn't need players who at played at the top level or had much experience to thrive in the Premier League. And he's been badly found-out on that score.
Let's also remember that Alex McLeish was one of the top 20 best paid managers in the world during his time at Villa, so it's reasonable to assume that Paul Lambert is on a similar wage, if not more. I feel that might have also been part of the appeal of the job.
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no I think you are wrong there. Didn't he say only a few weeks ago he's do the job even if there was no money!
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There is one thing rarely mentioned in this discussion about Lambert: we had the youngest team in the premiership last season. He has taken a team full of overpaid senior pros, replaced them with cheaper youngsters and academy players (clearly under Lerner's financial remit), and he has kept us steady. Additionally we were never really under threat from relegation this season, unlike last year, so you might say we've made a small step in the right direction and yes, that was without the injured players.
I know people are a bit sceptical about Okore being lauded as our defensive answer, but he must surely have a chance of being better than who we ended up using this season.
My main point though is, for me, breaking certain records, can also be explained by how young our team is. You'd expect a young team to be so inconsistent.
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I can see the merits on both sides of the argument, but I can't help but think that arguing about Lambert and the question of whether or not he should stay just doesn't really matter at the moment. It is all, entirely about the ownership.
Without a decent change of ownership, things are never going to get any better. If we are going to condemn ourselves to an existence of bobbing around the arse end of the table by allowing our financial ambition to dictate that, then to be honest, I am not going to waste much sleep worrying about who the manager is.
When the argument becomes "who can keep us in the league and get us to a realistic ceiling of 10th?" I find it hard to get passionate about any possible managerial appointment.
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Where we differ, Rolta, is that you take a mitigating factor and use it to essentially excuse Lambert, whereas I feel that his 'achievements', while to some degree lessened by the difficult situation, are still too remarkably bad for him to stay in the job. I'm also fed up of Villa having physically-minded managers with such tediously puritanical attitudes to football, but there we are.
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Where we differ, Rolta, is that you take a mitigating factor and use it to essentially excuse Lambert, whereas I feel that his 'achievements', while to some degree lessened by the difficult situation, are still too remarkably bad for him to stay in the job. I'm also fed up of Villa having physically-minded managers with such tediously puritanical attitudes to football, but there we are.
Whilst I stand by my belief (up above) that ownership change is so important, it towers over such discussions, I think you're spot on with that, monty.
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Where we differ, Rolta, is that you take a mitigating factor and use it to essentially excuse Lambert, whereas I feel that his 'achievements', while to some degree lessened by the difficult situation, are still too remarkably bad for him to stay in the job. I'm also fed up of Villa having physically-minded managers with such tediously puritanical attitudes to football, but there we are.
I do still hold out hope that Lambert has more ambition to his style of football than what we saw last season. Nobody was happy with how we played last season. But we have seen Lambert try and play a more attacking style though, so, for me, I can see how our brush with relegation in Lambert's first season made him more cautious in our second season. I just don't think we have the players yet, and that comes down again to the youth/inexperience/cheapness of our side.
He played attacking football at Norwich. I don't think it's a Mcleish situation at all as Mcleish was all out defence down to his atoms.
I agree with Pauliewalnuts though we just cannot go on the way we're going. The club is in a sad state, and we need investment more than anything. That must come first.
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Where we differ, Rolta, is that you take a mitigating factor and use it to essentially excuse Lambert, whereas I feel that his 'achievements', while to some degree lessened by the difficult situation, are still too remarkably bad for him to stay in the job. I'm also fed up of Villa having physically-minded managers with such tediously puritanical attitudes to football, but there we are.
I'm willing to give Lambert the benefit of the doubt, for one last time, that what we saw last season wasn't a fair reflection of his approach to football, and that matters off the pitch and mistakes/lack of clout in the transfer market produced a situation which he struggled to deal with.
I'm still of the opinion that many managers, even more talented, would have struggled to make much of the resources and remit he was given. We'll never know.
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Fair enough Rolta, and I do grant to Lambert the ambition to play good football. The problem is that he appears to think that good football is compatible with sitting five defenders deep at home against mediocre opposition and praying for a counterattacking chance, and long balls to a big man when he's surrounded by masses of defenders. Until he realises that these are incompatible, he'll always limit himself - and don't forget, Norwich were good on the break (which they had more chances to do, teams not setting up behind the ball against them like they do to us), but they did actually play the highest number of long balls in the league, and frequently started both Grant Holt and Steve Morison, the Talentless Twosome, as a strike partnership.
He's always had this limitation, even when his reputation was at its height, and it's just been more exposed during his time with us.
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You cant call Grant Holt talentless when he was with Norwich.
He was as effective for Norwich as Ricki Lambert is for Southampton.
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You cant call Grant Holt talentless when he was with Norwich.
He was as effective for Norwich as Ricki Lambert is for Southampton.
More so for me, he had a better range of goals.
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true but those days are long gone. That's why Deadly Dave was keen as mustard to lend him to us. And who knows, he may well come back!
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true but those days are long gone. That's why Deadly Dave was keen as mustard to lend him to us. And who knows, he may well come back!
I think even Lambo probably realises now that Holt is completely shot at this level. We'd get (a bit) more use out of Darren Bent coming off the bench next season.
Failing that we are going to need to sign another CF. Helenius is going, Bowery isn't good enough, Bent will never get a game under Lambert, Fonz is gone and Gabby and Weimann are too inconsistent. Tekkers is gonna miss half a season probably. Kozak isn't guaranteed to make the start. Even if he starts pre-season late, it could take him a while to get up to speed. Robinson needs plenty of gametime pre-season if he's to be ready to get thrown in.
Whoevers in charge and whatever state we're in, we are gonna need 3-4 new players. Minimum.
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On balance, I think we've seen a fair amount of 'panic' football from Lambert in his time at Villa. The man's only human - if your team's constantly under the cosh, the natural inclination is to tell them to get rid of it, even if it's just going to come back at you. There were examples of him using his players far better when the pressure was off - witness the Arsenal or Chelsea games last season, for instance. But what I don't really understand was why our play turned insipid and one-dimensional after about the third league game of the season. The team lost its confidence, turned in on itself and only showed what it was capable of in flashes. We got some results, but I would say the majority were either hard-fought or completely unexpected. I don't think it's any surprise that by the time Benteke returned, we were struggling, and his relatively poor form seemed to convince the rest of the team they had no chance of doing anything good.
What Lambert needs to realise is that he has to do more than keep his fingers crossed Benteke will return fitter, stronger and champing at the bit. I understand why he wanted to lay back and bask in his transfer success, but that's not an option this time round and he'd be better served thinking of Benteke as a bonus, not an essential.
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On balance, I think we've seen a fair amount of 'panic' football from Lambert in his time at Villa. The man's only human - if your team's constantly under the cosh, the natural inclination is to tell them to get rid of it, even if it's just going to come back at you. There were examples of him using his players far better when the pressure was off - witness the Arsenal or Chelsea games last season, for instance. But what I don't really understand was why our play turned insipid and one-dimensional after about the third league game of the season. The team lost its confidence, turned in on itself and only showed what it was capable of in flashes. We got some results, but I would say the majority were either hard-fought or completely unexpected. I don't think it's any surprise that by the time Benteke returned, we were struggling, and his relatively poor form seemed to convince the rest of the team they had no chance of doing anything good.
What Lambert needs to realise is that he has to do more than keep his fingers crossed Benteke will return fitter, stronger and champing at the bit. I understand why he wanted to lay back and bask in his transfer success, but that's not an option this time round and he'd be better served thinking of Benteke as a bonus, not an essential.
To be fair, I think with how Benteke was last season missing and out of form I'm sure he's thought about this.
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On balance, I think we've seen a fair amount of 'panic' football from Lambert in his time at Villa. The man's only human - if your team's constantly under the cosh, the natural inclination is to tell them to get rid of it, even if it's just going to come back at you. There were examples of him using his players far better when the pressure was off - witness the Arsenal or Chelsea games last season, for instance. But what I don't really understand was why our play turned insipid and one-dimensional after about the third league game of the season. The team lost its confidence, turned in on itself and only showed what it was capable of in flashes. We got some results, but I would say the majority were either hard-fought or completely unexpected. I don't think it's any surprise that by the time Benteke returned, we were struggling, and his relatively poor form seemed to convince the rest of the team they had no chance of doing anything good.
What Lambert needs to realise is that he has to do more than keep his fingers crossed Benteke will return fitter, stronger and champing at the bit. I understand why he wanted to lay back and bask in his transfer success, but that's not an option this time round and he'd be better served thinking of Benteke as a bonus, not an essential.
To be fair, I think with how Benteke was last season – missing and out of form – I'm sure he's thought about this.
I hope you're right, because he didn't come up with many fantastic solutions last season.