Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Damo70 on March 18, 2014, 10:16:21 AM
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The only man to win a major trophy with three English clubs, a better career win ratio than Brian Clough and along with Kevin Keegan the only English manager to finish in the top two of the Premier League.
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He wasn't just a big duck egg.
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Happy birthday Big Ron.
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pure entertainment value... Happy Birthday BFR
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Happy birthday BFR. Amazing years, amazing matches, amazing entertainment.
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Happy birthday Ron, love the man absolute legend in my eyes!
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Happy birthday Ron, ya daft racist.
Will never forget beating Utd at wembley in the league cup, one of the best days of my life - cheers Ron. Some quality signings and good times whilst you were in charge at VP. Some shite towards the end though too.
I saw a doco on youtube recently filmed when big Ron was the boss and the one thing that shone through was what such a happy place villa park seemed to be whilst he was there, right through the club, despite the presence of doug.
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Loved him and will never forget his saying "we were that bad I was about to stand up with the rest of the crowd and shout Atkinson out"
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Happy Birthday Ron.
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Happy birthday Ron, ya daft racist.
Will never forget beating Utd at wembley in the league cup, one of the best days of my life - cheers Ron. Some quality signings and good times whilst you were in charge at VP. Some shite towards the end though too.
I saw a doco on youtube recently filmed when big Ron was the boss and the one thing that shone through was what such a happy place villa park seemed to be whilst he was there, right through the club, despite the presence of doug.
Any links on that documentary?
Oh, and happy birthday BFR!
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Happy memories, happy days, would love to see that documentary as well
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Happy Birthday Ron.
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Great times under ron - happy birthday !
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some wonderful football, exciting players and a trophy. Shame it was all too short, but most enjoyable while it lasted. Also a shame he tarnished his reputation at the end, but he'll always have a soft spot with us for his genuine love of the club.
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When you turned up at a Villa game you knew you were going to see attacking football - and usually with style. Happy birthday Ron and thanks for the happy memories
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Press conference the day he took over at United -
"Ron, are you happy to give your home phone number to the local press guys?"
"Yes, but don't ring me during The Sweeney!"
"Martin Edwards offered me a Rover. I told him I already had a dog, it was a car I was after. I got a Mercedes."
BRMB phone in the Friday night when he took over Villa -
"Ron, are you gonna win us a trophy like the blues?"
"I hope I don't win you the Leyland Daf cup!"
Sky interview before returning to Villa Park with Coventry -
"What reception do you think you will get on your way to the dugout?"
"Your not allowed to say Doug out at Villa Park!"
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Long serving Oxford kit man Ken Fish, who some may remember from the '86 semi final programme cover had to have a leg amputated late in life. BFR went with Jim Smith to visit him in hospital. He thought it would be amusing to take him one shoe as a present. He thought it would be even more amusing if it was for the foot he no longer had!
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Happy Birthday, Big Ron. Best football I ever saw played at Villa was under Atkinson. Shame it ended the way it did.
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Happy birthday, Ron.
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Will never forget that BRMB forum/question night he did withGeorge Gavin after spending the afternoon on the sauce at Cheltenham, vey funny particularly all the Blues gags.
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A very very good villa manager and he only 5 years older than ferguson! thought he was 80
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Agreed. Definitly the most entertaining football I've seen at Villa Park. Would have loved him to remain with the Club in some capacity.
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Happy Birthday Ron, thank you for season 1992/1993 and winning the league cup in 1994.
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Happy Birthday, Big Ron. Best football I ever saw played at Villa was under Atkinson. Shame it ended the way it did.
Totally agree. An absolute pleasure.
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Happy days under Ron, he certainly put together a few entertaining sides.
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Apparently he is celebrating with 75 burning crosses on his cake instead of candles.
The memory of his time for me is forever tarnished by his subsequent outing as an unabashed racist. I know from other people that his remarks on TV were far from being an isolated incident.
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Apparently he is celebrating with 75 burning crosses on his cake instead of candles.
The memory of his time for me is forever tarnished by his subsequent outing as an unabashed racist. I know from other people that his remarks on TV were far from being an isolated incident.
It'd hard to separate the two. You might love him for his football and most of his stay at the club, but how can you not look at him based on what he was caught saying. And you know that was never the first time, it was just the first time he got caught in such a public way. Like a man/woman who gets caught cheating on their partner and pleads that it was the one and only time...
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His actions suggest he was'nt a racist.
Great times, some great memories, the excitement, expectations, enjoyment of the time.After 76-82, probably my favourite time as a Villa fan was under BFR. Sheff Weds away, his 1st game, epitomised his reign.
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As a kid standing on the Holte I'll never forget a wonderful goal against Sheffield Wednesday - brilliant passing move culminating with a Staunton cross and Yorke finish. Still to this day one of the best team goals I've ever seen. Focussing on the good, that's what I'll remember BFR at Villa for; style and flamboyance. It was fun.
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BFR is from a generation where certain words were tolerated, which rightly aren't now. As one of the pioneering managers when it came to bringing black players into the game, you can't really label him a racist.
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BFR is from a generation where certain words were tolerated, which rightly aren't now. As one of the pioneering managers when it came to bringing black players into the game, you can't really label him a racist.
Nah,he is a racist who has been doing it for years Chris said so.
Mind you its only what he has been told.
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Coined the phrase "early doors". It sounds much better than "early into the game."
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BFR is from a generation where certain words were tolerated, which rightly aren't now. As one of the pioneering managers when it came to bringing black players into the game, you can't really label him a racist.
Nah,he is a racist who has been doing it for years Chris said so.
Mind you its only what he has been told.
People are letting their memory of his time as our manager cloud their judgement. If he had not worked for us then he would get zero sympathy, he'd just be that racist ex baggies and manu manager.
The person who told me witnessed it first hand, is somebody I trust 100% and would have no reason to lie, he's also a Villa season ticket holder.
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BFR is from a generation where certain words were tolerated, which rightly aren't now. As one of the pioneering managers when it came to bringing black players into the game, you can't really label him a racist.
Nah,he is a racist who has been doing it for years Chris said so.
Mind you its only what he has been told.
People are letting their memory of his time as our manager cloud their judgement. If he had not worked for us then he would get zero sympathy, he'd just be that racist ex baggies and manu manager.
The person who told me witnessed it first hand, is somebody I trust 100% and would have no reason to lie, he's also a Villa season ticket holder.
Didnt he play 11 black players for us against Everton?
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BFR is from a generation where certain words were tolerated, which rightly aren't now. As one of the pioneering managers when it came to bringing black players into the game, you can't really label him a racist.
Nah,he is a racist who has been doing it for years Chris said so.
Mind you its only what he has been told.
People are letting their memory of his time as our manager cloud their judgement. If he had not worked for us then he would get zero sympathy, he'd just be that racist ex baggies and manu manager.
The person who told me witnessed it first hand, is somebody I trust 100% and would have no reason to lie, he's also a Villa season ticket holder.
Didnt he play 11 black players for us against Everton?
I once heard a guy tell a horribly racist joke and then tell me he couldn't be racist because he employed black people - wished I had thought of the "plantation owners" retort at the time but was a little emotional...
The football his team played was great - I remember those players not him
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BFR is from a generation where certain words were tolerated, which rightly aren't now. As one of the pioneering managers when it came to bringing black players into the game, you can't really label him a racist.
Nah,he is a racist who has been doing it for years Chris said so.
Mind you its only what he has been told.
People are letting their memory of his time as our manager cloud their judgement. If he had not worked for us then he would get zero sympathy, he'd just be that racist ex baggies and manu manager.
The person who told me witnessed it first hand, is somebody I trust 100% and would have no reason to lie, he's also a Villa season ticket holder.
Didnt he play 11 black players for us against Everton?
I don't know, but that makes no difference if he did, it's the 'some of my best friends are black' argument.
He also made some fairly dodgy comments when he was on Celebrity Big Brother.
I understand the generational argument but really it is no defence. He's spent a large part of his working life in an environment when it was a big issue and he should know the difference.
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BFR is from a generation where certain words were tolerated, which rightly aren't now. As one of the pioneering managers when it came to bringing black players into the game, you can't really label him a racist.
Nah,he is a racist who has been doing it for years Chris said so.
Mind you its only what he has been told.
People are letting their memory of his time as our manager cloud their judgement. If he had not worked for us then he would get zero sympathy, he'd just be that racist ex baggies and manu manager.
The person who told me witnessed it first hand, is somebody I trust 100% and would have no reason to lie, he's also a Villa season ticket holder.
Was that before or after his night of shame?
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Happy Birthday, Big Ron. Best football I ever saw played at Villa was under Atkinson. Shame it ended the way it did.
he was a breath of fresh air - the away game at Hillsborough for his opening game in charge is still one of my all-time favourite away matches.
However, best football ever played in my time was the team of 1976-1977 with Gray, Deehan and the incomparable Little.
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BFR is from a generation where certain words were tolerated, which rightly aren't now. As one of the pioneering managers when it came to bringing black players into the game, you can't really label him a racist.
Nah,he is a racist who has been doing it for years Chris said so.
Mind you its only what he has been told.
People are letting their memory of his time as our manager cloud their judgement. If he had not worked for us then he would get zero sympathy, he'd just be that racist ex baggies and manu manager.
The person who told me witnessed it first hand, is somebody I trust 100% and would have no reason to lie, he's also a Villa season ticket holder.
Was that before or after his night of shame?
It was before and it took place on a golf course. He reckoned that he was showing off, thinking using that sort of language would impress people.
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Maybe he is a piss head racist,I have met a few unfortunately.
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Maybe he is a piss head racist,I have met a few unfortunately.
Are you friends with John Terry's dad?
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Maybe he is a piss head racist,I have met a few unfortunately.
Are you friends with John Terry's dad?
He would be told to fuck right off!
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BFR is from a generation where certain words were tolerated, which rightly aren't now. As one of the pioneering managers when it came to bringing black players into the game, you can't really label him a racist.
As John says he comes from a different generation and although I'm younger than BFR, I can recall certain words that today would immediately brand someone as racist that were not merely tolerated but were used in normal conversation.
On the other hand, as a kid, saying "bloody" would land you in big trouble and I'd never even heard the word "fuck" until I went to secondary school and then it was never used within earshot of an adult.
Standards evolve and change, hopefully for the better and judging people by different standards is a bit daft.
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Great era for the Villa, when we were competing... 92-93 was a great season but ended badly with manure winning the league. Grrrrr oh and Happy Birthday Ron.
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He's made mistakes, he's been ignorant and said some stupid things. But he's given us some never to be forgotten memories and been fantastic for football over the years so I wish the big man a happy birthday and all the very best.
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He's made mistakes, he's been ignorant and said some stupid things. But he's given us some never to be forgotten memories and been fantastic for football over the years so I wish the big man a happy birthday and all the very best.
So do I.
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He's made mistakes, he's been ignorant and said some stupid things. But he's given us some never to be forgotten memories and been fantastic for football over the years so I wish the big man a happy birthday and all the very best.
So do I.
Count me in too.
Always will have a massive soft spot for Big Ron. Villa through and through and there simply cannot be enough of them.
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I wish him well. Under BFR we not only played good attacking football we won trophies when the "big" clubs played their first team. The best thing for me though was after a poor performance his post match interview was honest and forthright. I remember him saying he had reminded the players how people had to work all week to pay for their match day tickets and how they had let them down. Didn't change the result but made me feel better. Happy birthday Ron
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Although it arguably started with Graham Taylor MK 1, under BFR the media definitely did treat us as a big club, the Villa did receive high media coverage as a result of him being manager. This carried on into the Little years too. Under Gregory though I felt like the press started to treat us like small fry, particularly when top of the league, they treated us like we'd never been there before.
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He had the swagger and belief to walk into a top flight club like Albion as if he owned the place after a life spent in non league and a couple of years at Cambridge then carried that attitude on to United, Wednesday and Villa. And backed it up with results and trophies.
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Managed some Spanish side for a bit too didn't he? ; )
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Ron managed Villa for an all too short but successful period, a few off the cuff comments won't diminish the stature of the man.
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Ron managed Villa for an all too short but successful period, a few off the cuff comments won't diminish the stature of the man.
I'm so pleased you can casually dismiss racism as "off the cuff comments".
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If a manager we didn't like had made those comments we'd slaughter them for it. As much as I enjoyed some of the time he was manager, i'm not going to change how I view someone who uses racist language just because of it.
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If a manager we didn't like had made those comments we'd slaughter them for it. As much as I enjoyed some of the time he was manager, i'm not going to change how I view someone who uses racist language just because of it.
Precisely. Look at the way (Rightly so) that Suarez was slaughtered towards the visiting Liverpool fan on this site.
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I'm in two minds about the BFR/racism thing. On the one hand actions speak louder than words and nobody advanced the cause of black players more than he did, from the time when they were still a novelty having bananas thrown at them, to the dawn of the modern era when a player's race, colour or nationality is irrelevant. On the other hand, what he said was, regardless of context, unforgivable and just as telling was the C4 documentary when he gave the impression he still didn't know what the fuss was all about. I think it was Paul Parker who said that you can't use the 'n' word without being racist because if you weren't you wouldn't even think about it. I don't think Ron is racist in the classic meaning of the word whereby other races are inferior but the language he used went beyond the sort of dressing room banter you could just laugh off as a product of his times.
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Of course he advanced the cause of black players but let's not forget that the two most talented of the "Three Degrees" were signed before he went to West Brom (Batson followed him from Cambridge) and despite the racism amongst the crowds black players were always going to make their mark in the game because of their sheer talent which no manager would be able to ignore for much longer. I don't know how racist Ron Atkinson is or isn't but the fact he played the incredibly talented Regis and Cunningham in a side of his doesn't detract from his comments one little bit, no manager taking over that side could have dropped either of them anyway.
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I think younger people than I (I am two weeks younger than BFR) have a far more censorious attitude to racism because the acceptance of the wrongness of it did not happen overnight. Morality is fluid. Things which were taboo fifty years ago are now commonplace and vice versa. MY mother was the most saintly and pious person ever to go to church twice every Sunday. She would give away her last slice of bread to a hungry person and left all of the money she had in the world (not much) to a dog rescue in Shrewsbury. But she used the 'N' word casually and frequently. We had a dog with the 'N' name, and later a cat. Her favourite colour was 'N' brown, her favourite television was the Black and White Minstrel Show and her favourite music hall star was G H Elliot whose bill matter was "The Chocolate Colured C**n".
So men my age and BFR's age have been obliged to acquire a mind set of what is or is not acceptable language. I sympathize with BFR for not moving with the times and eliminating racism from the landscape of his life.
In conclusion, just to put my point in context, my mother in common with just about all of her generation would never say the word "cancer". It was completely taboo and at the very most could only be mouthed silently, but more often than not simply referred to as "you know".
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I'm not quite as advanced in years as you are Brian and neither am I anywhere near as eloquent, so thank you for explaining so succinctly what I was attempting to explain a few pages ago.
And I also recall my mother using the 'N' word when describing the colour of shoes, shoe polish, fabrics etc.
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But BFR isn't from either of your mothers' generatiion.
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But BFR isn't from either of your mothers' generatiion.
You missed the point of Brian's post there.
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What makes his words more offensive is that he had worked in an environment when there had been massive efforts to raise awareness and remove those attitudes from the game. To have gone through that period and still make those comments and then to compound it by an inability to see why what he said was offensive takes a particular combination of arrogance and stupidity.
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What makes his words more offensive is that he had worked in an environment when there had been massive efforts to raise awareness and remove those attitudes from the game. To have gone through that period and still make those comments and then to compound it by an inability to see why what he said was offensive takes a particular combination of arrogance and stupidity.
Yeah but let's not punish him for the rest of his life though. He made a mistake which was wrong and apologised for it. I don't think he's a racist, but he's certainly from a generation where it wasn't such a taboo thing to say. That's not condoning it, it's just looking for reasons why someone can say such an offensive slur. Why the continual witch hunt though? I don't see Ian Wright being continually hounded for his quite disgusting mocking of a disabled linesman during the 90s, and he seems to have been forgiven, so why not Atkinson?
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It a deeply stupid and offensive thing to say and I believe he paid the penalty with his job and apologised.
Not sure if it has been picked up before. What was absurd was that the player who was the subject of his ire/fruatration had won just about everything there was to win. Therefore aside from the disgusting 'n' word calling him lazy or thick was not justified.
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Can't remember exactly what he said, but wasn't it something along the lines of: some might say that player x is...
I suppose if what he meant by 'some people' was 'I' that would truly make him racist, but if he did actually mean 'some people other than me' then maybe he was just articulating (poorly) what he thought was a common view? My initial post was more a reference to an Alan partridge quote than a real dig at him. if what he said offended people ( and no doubt it did) then it was likely out of order.
What is undeniable is that he clearly had faith in black players and would play players on their ability. What is less clear though, is how those players were treated behind the scenes. I think a few have since come out and pointed the finger, notably Collymore, but BFR never managed him as a player, to my knowledge.
It's a shame it takes the gloss off his time at the club
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What makes his words more offensive is that he had worked in an environment when there had been massive efforts to raise awareness and remove those attitudes from the game. To have gone through that period and still make those comments and then to compound it by an inability to see why what he said was offensive takes a particular combination of arrogance and stupidity.
Yeah but let's not punish him for the rest of his life though. He made a mistake which was wrong and apologised for it. I don't think he's a racist, but he's certainly from a generation where it wasn't such a taboo thing to say. That's not condoning it, it's just looking for reasons why someone can say such an offensive slur. Why the continual witch hunt though? I don't see Ian Wright being continually hounded for his quite disgusting mocking of a disabled linesman during the 90s, and he seems to have been forgiven, so why not Atkinson?
It's not a witch hunt, but on a thread started about him it is a legitimate avenue for discussion. Otherwise we just get a succession of gushing tributes as though the other stuff didn't happen.
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In work with a 59 year old bloke who was talking about an ex colleague whose name he couldn't remember and he described him as 'coloured'. In his mind this was the acceptable terminology and I had to tell him this could be perceived as racist. Now I know this is on a different level to the word Ron used but even so I believe Ron was guilty of using racist terminology rather than being a racist. The amount of his ex players, black ex players who spoke out on his behalf makes me believe that despite working with him on a day to day basis they didn't think of him as a racist.
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In work with a 59 year old bloke who was talking about an ex colleague whose name he couldn't remember and he described him as 'coloured'. In his mind this was the acceptable terminology and I had to tell him this could be perceived as racist. Now I know this is on a different level to the word Ron used but even so I believe Ron was guilty of using racist terminology rather than being a racist. The amount of his ex players, black ex players who spoke out on his behalf makes me believe that despite working with him on a day to day basis they didn't think of him as a racist.
The fact that so many of his former black players came out to support him is the reason I think Atkinson isn't a racist. He made a big mistake and was rightly punished for it, but that doesn't mean he should be punished forever though. He should have been given a second chance like Ian Wright was given after he cruelly mocked a disabled linesman back in the 90s. Ironically Wright was one of the biggest critics of Big Ron yet he conveniently forgot all about his own offence, which was worse (in my opinion). I don't see him being ostracised by the media in this country though.
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We had a dog with the 'N' name, and later a cat
Mate of mine had a dog with the "N" name. He cringes now when he recalls shouting the dog's name up and down the street whenever it went missing. Which was often.
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Ron's actions as a manager suggest he was not racist, but the commentary incident suggests he was.
There was a documentary about the incident on TV a few years ago. Ron said he had apologised and didn't know what more he could do but there was a clear sense that he didn't understand what he had apologised for.
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Ron's actions as a manager suggest he was not racist
*Apologies if you think I've quoted you out of context Dave*
Ron was pretty much forced to work with black players, as was just about any manager at the time because black players were making the breakthrough whatever happened, the racism they endured was vile but they were too skilful, hardworking and too numerous for football to ignore them any longer.
I liken the contradictions between his championing of black players and his vile remarks to the sort of people I've worked with in my life, especially I an ashamed to say in the Army. The sort of blokes who will spout all sorts of racist nonsense down the bar but when questioned about the black bloke in their squadron will say, "Yeah, but Leroy's a good bloke, and he don't mind the jokes."
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Ron's actions as a manager suggest he was not racist, but the commentary incident suggests he was.
There was a documentary about the incident on TV a few years ago. Ron said he had apologised and didn't know what more he could do but there was a clear sense that he didn't understand what he had apologised for.
That's been my take all along. Apologise for doing it, or for being caught?
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In work with a 59 year old bloke who was talking about an ex colleague whose name he couldn't remember and he described him as 'coloured'. In his mind this was the acceptable terminology and I had to tell him this could be perceived as racist. Now I know this is on a different level to the word Ron used but even so I believe Ron was guilty of using racist terminology rather than being a racist. The amount of his ex players, black ex players who spoke out on his behalf makes me believe that despite working with him on a day to day basis they didn't think of him as a racist.
The fact that so many of his former black players came out to support him is the reason I think Atkinson isn't a racist. He made a big mistake and was rightly punished for it, but that doesn't mean he should be punished forever though. He should have been given a second chance like Ian Wright was given after he cruelly mocked a disabled linesman back in the 90s. Ironically Wright was one of the biggest critics of Big Ron yet he conveniently forgot all about his own offence, which was worse (in my opinion). I don't see him being ostracised by the media in this country though.
he's not getting punished forever though, is he? The fact people are still talking about it means the issue is still relevant and arguably contentious. If that makes him uncomfortable by it still being brought up, it's unfortunate for him obviously, but its not a punishment. People can discuss what they like and they will. It's telling, the vast amount of goodwill a lot of people still have towards him (me included).
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There's no punishment here. It's a shame for all of us that our memories of him are tarnished by what happened. However, it is possible to separate the two. You can still love him for his management of the club and the football he brought for that short period of time. You can also be harsh on him for comments made, and especially as he never fully accepted what he did or the consequences of his actions over the years, not just at that very moment.
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In the documentary though what came across was that yes he was a persaon of a different era, but he genuinely felt that he was being continuously lambasted for it. Rightly so if he was a card waving racist but I do not think he is. As for paul Parker's comment I totally disagree. The phrase 'nigger in the woodpile' was still fairly prevalent up to a decade or two ago. I remember a lecturer using it in a Seminar whilst a Nigerian guy was sitting there. the lecturer didn't even blink twice. I don't think that mnakes him a racist but that the word in a phrase meant something else to him.
Cut to Only Fools and Horses in the 80s and a scene where Del Boy gives some money to a kid sitting on a kerb crying. "Here's 50p son. Go on. Go and get yourself sumfink from the Paki shop". Harmless then, and the corner shop was generally referred to as a Paki shop without fully understanding any negative connotations or how the people being reffered to as 'Paki' would take such a word. If you follow Paul Parker's words to the letter then is he saying John Sullivan is a racist?
I don't know if Big Ron is a racist I don't know him. But I doubt that in a high profile job like his, where he is and has been one of the most open people in the game, and further when in the media, that he would be a secret racist. He didn't need to field 8 black players against Everton (I think it was), and he didn't need to worry about fielding a new generation of non-white players, he played whoever he felt was good enough.
Yes I think he doesn't get the condemnation and that he has to keep apologising. But I think a lot of that is to do with an out-pouring of almost pity that one of the most likable football people on television that was genuinely liked and admired by just about everyone should something so stupid, so crass, and, well, so apparently racist.
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Yes I think he doesn't get the condemnation and that he has to keep apologising. But I think a lot of that is to do with an out-pouring of almost pity that one of the most likable football people on television that was genuinely liked and admired by just about everyone should something so stupid, so crass, and, well, so apparently racist.
If he still doesn't get it after all this time and all those people telling him then he's either thick (he isn't), stubborn (probably), or racist (possibly).
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Yes I think he doesn't get the condemnation and that he has to keep apologising. But I think a lot of that is to do with an out-pouring of almost pity that one of the most likable football people on television that was genuinely liked and admired by just about everyone should something so stupid, so crass, and, well, so apparently racist.
If he still doesn't get it after all this time and all those people telling him then he's either thick (he isn't), stubborn (probably), or racist (possibly).
I think it was very telling that in the documentary he was surrounded by his middle-aged, middle-class white friends or elderly working-class whites. Everyone he knows will tell him that he was unfairly treated.
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From experience, I can tell the difference between a racist and someone who is just ignorant. The racist has anger and intent in his words and action. I don't think Ron Atkinson is a racist.
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From experience, I can tell the difference between a racist and someone who is just ignorant. The racist has anger and intent in his words and action. I don't think Ron Atkinson is a racist.
Good point.
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What makes his words more offensive is that he had worked in an environment when there had been massive efforts to raise awareness and remove those attitudes from the game. To have gone through that period and still make those comments and then to compound it by an inability to see why what he said was offensive takes a particular combination of arrogance and stupidity.
I think the "massive efforts" have increased over the last ten years or so. I think BFR's last league management job was 1999. Time flies and when we talk about him growing up in a different era most or all of his management years could possibly be classed as a different era in some respects.
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What makes his words more offensive is that he had worked in an environment when there had been massive efforts to raise awareness and remove those attitudes from the game. To have gone through that period and still make those comments and then to compound it by an inability to see why what he said was offensive takes a particular combination of arrogance and stupidity.
I think the "massive efforts" have increased over the last ten years or so. I think BFR's last league management job was 1999. Time flies and when we talk about him growing up in a different era most or all of his management years could possibly be classed as a different era in some respects.
He was still involved in the game through his punditry, though, so I'm not sure that's a valid defence and in any case his outing happened in 2004.
For what it is worth I think his comments were more ignorant than bigoted, and I take on board all the generational stuff, but that still doesn't excuse them.
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People my age are, justifiably in my opinion, acutely uncomfortable with the widespread presumption that their feelings are less valid because they are opinions held by the old who do not really understand how society must work.
I am far from happy that Bruce Willis can shout "Yippee Ki yay Motherf*cker" at Alan Rickman and have that obscenity become the signature of the Die Hard genre but in The Dam Busters the greeting Guy Gibson gives his dog is bleeped out. To make matters worse Die Hard is a work of fiction but Guy Gibson was a real person and a war hero who really did have a dog he had given the "N" name. Obscene fiction is acceptable, historical facts are not.
That my generation can like it or lump it is naked ageism and is as offensive to me as racism, sexism or homophobia.
I am not defending BFR, he opened his gob and created great offence. I am defending the right of old people to have their take on things respected not merely tolerated.
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It's a fair point Brian but "old people" haven't got the right to call someone a n***** simply because it was okay years ago. Society changes through the present cosmopolitan world that we live in. Better rights for the under privileged, such as ethnic, cultural, religious minorities, or majorities as it may be with women, and better care and protection for the 'disabled' and so on.
What has also changed is that we have taken a look at the words that we were using 30 or so years ago when describing any 'minority'. So much so it's largely enshrined in law now.
So as much as you may say old people should be respected I agree with that. But not if it means that they can use terms that are now likely to cause offence, simply because it meant something different to them.
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Isn't the bleeping out the name of the dog in repeats of The Dambusters a totally different thing to using that word now?
I understand why they used the dog's real name when they made the film, because it wasn't really an issue back then. I think for that reason, it should be left in.
However, that's a totally different thing to dropping the N Bomb these days, which is utterly unacceptable.
For example, if the writer of the Dambusters film were alive today and using the N word, that would clearly be deplorable. The fact it was used in 1955 (or whenever that film was made) is very different, though.
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You get me wrong Peter I think. I am not putting a case for any generation being immune from being educated into fairer, juster, more equitable behaviour. What I am saying is that those better values evolve, there is no magic sticking point at which all that is held to be correct at that moment remains correct for ever. Morality is the whole river of humanity not streams of it. I would never use a racist term to a black person but in return I do not want any other person to consider me to be inferior because my memory is bad and I get up five times a night to pee.
The words are not the problem, they are simply the symptoms of it like the spots when you get measles. I went to pick up one of my grandchildren from school and kids now use the word "challenged" as abuse.
What has to be eliminated are not just the "isms" but the urge to dominate.
The other day I was parking my van in our residents parking space (bought and paid for from Cambridge City Council) when I saw a notice saying that the parking bays were to be suspended on a certain date. Being unsure of that day's date I asked a middle aged woman alighting from a Chelsea tractor dropping off her kids at the school gate (with no parking permit) what the date was. She looked at me with a mixture of loathing and disgust in her eyes at being spoken to by this old bloke in working clothes driving a van full of fruit and vegetables. She snarled something incoherent at me and I tried to explain that it was as much in her interests as mine to know if we were going to get towed away but I was left with the inescapable feeling that that woman thought I had no right to speak to her.
That assumption of superiority is what must be erased from our culture, superiority of skin colour, of gender, of sexual orientation, of age, of weight, height, whatever.
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The whole "it's not that bad because it was used back in my day" argument is a cop out in my opinion. I'm 44 and when growing up casual racism was pretty rife in society. P**i, c**n, n****r, w*g, and countless other terms were heard regularly. On tv, in real life etc they were still regularly heard through the 70s and 80s.
And I bet most people my age or similar grew up hearing the same words just as often. Well guess what, despite hearing them so often year after year we were smart enough to realise how deeply offensive they are and don't use them rather than still use them and go for the "well back in my day" routine.
Anyone in this country who used any of those terms in the last 20 years (at least) knows full well how deeply offensive they are. Age/ignorance is no excuse.
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You are absolutely correct PWS. All I ask is that all those prejudices which exist now in this day at this time come to be acknowledged as equally wrong.
Singling out people for abuse because of the colour of their skin is wicked and wrong. No reasonable or fair minded person would even attempt to defend it. That is only part of the problem. I have a very good friend who is undergoing a sex change. She is one of the bravest people I know. She is a prominent Cambridge academic and most people knew her when she was a man. She could tell you far better than I whether society is liberal and tolerant or bigoted and ignorant. I suspect it leans towards the latter.
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I should have added last night that I think one of the most pernicious prejudices glossed over these days - just like racism was glossed over in the days of Until Death Us Do Part - and which will become up front and centre in society is the ridicule and abuse faced by overweight people.
In the same way as the tobacco companies destroyed people's health in pursuit of profit in the 20th century the junk food manufacturers and purveyors will destroy it in the 21st. The victims of over consumption of fat, salt and sugar are already treated with contempt and prejudice and it will get worse until the same stand is made against it as has been made against racism and homophobia. The seeds of weightism have already been sown. What does the "F" stand for in the name we have given Ron Atkinson? Harmless? A bit of a laugh? Something to be taken in good part? That is what they said when Alf Garnett called his carer a c**n.
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From experience, I can tell the difference between a racist and someone who is just ignorant. The racist has anger and intent in his words and action. I don't think Ron Atkinson is a racist.
I happen to agree with this, I also thank Ron for the most exciting few years of my Villa supporting life.
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I should have added last night that I think one of the most pernicious prejudices glossed over these days - just like racism was glossed over in the days of Until Death Us Do Part - and which will become up front and centre in society is the ridicule and abuse faced by overweight people.
In the same way as the tobacco companies destroyed people's health in pursuit of profit in the 20th century the junk food manufacturers and purveyors will destroy it in the 21st. The victims of over consumption of fat, salt and sugar are already treated with contempt and prejudice and it will get worse until the same stand is made against it as has been made against racism and homophobia. The seeds of weightism have already been sown. What does the "F" stand for in the name we have given Ron Atkinson? Harmless? A bit of a laugh? Something to be taken in good part? That is what they said when Alf Garnett called his carer a c**n.
Unfortunately Brian that's also symptomatic of a survival of the fittest class of animal that we are. But, in particular specific to our culture. If you go and look at the cultures that are religion driven then the respect shown for the elderly is a cornerstone of it every bit as much as their devotion to a deity. It's a respect thing that has been lost in increasing secularity.
As for the fat people well I'm sorry but in all but a minority of examples it's a self-inflicted condition which is highlighting someone's greed, lack of respect for themselves., and lack of respect for others. I have no sympathy with obese people as they are saying 'look at me I'm greedy'. I hate the avaricious lifestyle that they have indulged in and see them no better than other sections of society that are selfish and contemptible.
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An addendum to that is the I never referred to Big Ron as Big Fat Ron
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As for the fat people well I'm sorry but in all but a minority of examples it's a self-inflicted condition which is highlighting someone's greed, lack of respect for themselves., and lack of respect for others. I have no sympathy with obese people as they are saying 'look at me I'm greedy'. I hate the avaricious lifestyle that they have indulged in and see them no better than other sections of society that are selfish and contemptible.
I'm pleased you qualified your post with 'in all but a minority of cases'. Illness can cause weight gain, some of which are not easily/quickly diagnosed - research thyroid disorders. I remember seeing Stan on TV saying how much weight he put on during his cancer treatment. I don't believe overweight people are saying look at me, I'm greedy. If anything, I'm inclined to think they're not overly educated about nutrition, but not knowing the full background, I'm not comfortable making a generalisation about them.
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As for the fat people well I'm sorry but in all but a minority of examples it's a self-inflicted condition which is highlighting someone's greed, lack of respect for themselves., and lack of respect for others. I have no sympathy with obese people as they are saying 'look at me I'm greedy'. I hate the avaricious lifestyle that they have indulged in and see them no better than other sections of society that are selfish and contemptible.
This is the most spiteful post I've read on here for a while.
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As for the fat people well I'm sorry but in all but a minority of examples it's a self-inflicted condition which is highlighting someone's greed, lack of respect for themselves., and lack of respect for others. I have no sympathy with obese people as they are saying 'look at me I'm greedy'. I hate the avaricious lifestyle that they have indulged in and see them no better than other sections of society that are selfish and contemptible.
This is the most spiteful post I've read on here for a while.
Agreed. I had been agreeing with alot of peters posts but he's just lost me now.
I'm part of a couple of Business Associations here. A few months back, a personal fitness trainer I knew and had respected was speaking to the meeting about staff motivation and exercise. He basically said fat people got whatever ills came their way and deserved it, and moreover he was disgusted his tax dollars were going to be spent on their hospital treatment. We had several overweight members present. I was shocked then and still am now.
People should have the right to their opinions but stereotyping and prejudice are totally unacceptable (unless towards Chelsea fans).
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As for the fat people well I'm sorry but in all but a minority of examples it's a self-inflicted condition which is highlighting someone's greed, lack of respect for themselves., and lack of respect for others. I have no sympathy with obese people as they are saying 'look at me I'm greedy'. I hate the avaricious lifestyle that they have indulged in and see them no better than other sections of society that are selfish and contemptible.
This is the most spiteful post I've read on here for a while.
Isn't it just.
I work with a number of people, mainly women, who are tied to the desk by the job they do. They then go home and have homes and families to take care of. Add to that the hours spent commuting where are they supposed to find the time end energy to fit in the exercise that will help them lose weight?
Most overweight people are not the chronically lazy or greedy or those with medical conditions but those with busy lives who are trying to do their best.
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As for the fat people well I'm sorry but in all but a minority of examples it's a self-inflicted condition which is highlighting someone's greed, lack of respect for themselves., and lack of respect for others. I have no sympathy with obese people as they are saying 'look at me I'm greedy'. I hate the avaricious lifestyle that they have indulged in and see them no better than other sections of society that are selfish and contemptible.
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The above post displays all the prejudice, intolerance and ignorance of any of the prejudices now fortunately challenged by our robust equality laws. You clearly don't understand why so many people are obese nowadays and greed is merely one of them. I hope you never face the same level of ignorance and intolerance you have just shown.
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I would never say anything horrible about fat people. However, I make a specific exception for the obese family next door to me, 'The Golightly's'. A family of noses and the most unsociable, miserable bunch of moaners you could ever meet. And I don't say that because they are noses. The couple the other side dislike them even more than the wife and I do and they couldn't care less about football.
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look everyone has a right to be what they are, and some gravitationally challenged people are so through no fault of their own, and well the others are helping the recovery, with all the snickers bars and dough nuts that they buy, But I take exception to my fellow poster having to live next door to a nose, that is far beyond the pale.
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He is a typical nose as well. Wears the shirt, puts blue and white Christmas lights all round the front of his house and stopped going when they went down.
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I'm sorry, but trying to equate inequality towards fat people with racism is a completely wrong, generations of overweight people haven't had to fight for equality and generally speaking people aren't murdered for the size of their bellies.
I get that fat people, along with gingers, are bullied at school, but then again just about everyone is bullied at school at some point. I wasn't fat or ginger so in the absence of anything else I got punched because I was on free school dinners. "Take that you poor bastard."
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Brian's original point about fat people being the target of casual prejudice, not recognised as such because it's a laugh...
I'd cite jokes about a gorgeous woman with a fat friend and being lumbered (sic) with the FF on a lad's night out. They've been told for centuries, probably.
By definition the gorgeous woman is slim. At least! But with amazing assets.
That's something every young girl can aspire to. Instant popularity. But her genes have to deliver in so many ways apart from a sensible eating regime and near starvation if she isn't that sensible.
As for fat boys, well, instant ridicule as well. Unless he ends up like OddJob and adds menace and a homicidal hat trick.
It's a crazy world when completely averagely proportioned actors (on the slim and good looking side) are being digitally enhanced for longer legs, let's face it.
I'm with Brian. Who decided that taller and thinner is better?!
Crap for the propagation of the human race. We're gorgeous in our infinite variety.
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Not adding anything to the debate I realise, but it occurred to me that in my youth, whilst it was normal and inoffensive in this country to use the N word, contrarily it was unacceptable to use the word 'black' in relation to a black person, whereas 'coloured' was ok. It's always fascinating to see how language usage changes over time and in this case the US civil rights movement was probably the prime mover, since the N word had a completely different and horrible subtext, especially in the Southern States.
I wonder what words will be next.
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Not adding anything to the debate I realise, but it occurred to me that in my youth, whilst it was normal and inoffensive in this country to use the N word, contrarily it was unacceptable to use the word 'black' in relation to a black person, whereas 'coloured' was ok. It's always fascinating to see how language usage changes over time and in this case the US civil rights movement was probably the prime mover, since the N word had a completely different and horrible subtext, especially in the Southern States.
I wonder what words will be next.
Yes I remember when the linguistic shift happened.
It was driven by the politics of the Civil Rights movement in the USA. I have to say, completely justifiably.
And for younger posters on here, we are all coloured.
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As for the fat people well I'm sorry but in all but a minority of examples it's a self-inflicted condition which is highlighting someone's greed, lack of respect for themselves., and lack of respect for others. I have no sympathy with obese people as they are saying 'look at me I'm greedy'. I hate the avaricious lifestyle that they have indulged in and see them no better than other sections of society that are selfish and contemptible.
This is the most spiteful post I've read on here for a while.
Maybe I need to qualify what I'm saying here as it seems to be lost in probably my translation. It's not fat people per se that I talking about. It's obese people. And not just every obese person but those of chosen through their own greed to get themselves into the situation. There is always some reason, and for some people some very real traumatic reasons why weight gain may be the result, again it's not that general group of people I was targeting on.
Apologies to all for any unintended offence but my focus is on the greedy people who have selfishly got them into a position that they need the State's help and are seemingly doing nothing about the situation themselves. That's level of greed I dislike and my crude earlier post didn't really make that clear at all. So for that, again, apologies to all.
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As for the fat people well I'm sorry but in all but a minority of examples it's a self-inflicted condition which is highlighting someone's greed, lack of respect for themselves., and lack of respect for others. I have no sympathy with obese people as they are saying 'look at me I'm greedy'. I hate the avaricious lifestyle that they have indulged in and see them no better than other sections of society that are selfish and contemptible.
This is the most spiteful post I've read on here for a while.
Maybe I need to qualify what I'm saying here as it seems to be lost in probably my translation. It's not fat people per se that I talking about. It's obese people. And not just every obese person but those of chosen through their own greed to get themselves into the situation. There is always some reason, and for some people some very real traumatic reasons why weight gain may be the problem, again it's not those people I was targeting on.
Apologies to all for any unintended offence but my focus is on the greedy people who have selfishly got them into a position that they need the State's help and are seemingly doing nothing about the situation themselves. That's level of greed I dislike and my crude earlier post didn't really make that clear at all. So for that, again, apologies to all.
I appreciate that you were talking about people who 'don't have any control.' They are greedy.
I think that, actually that may be lots of us.
Overeating is a symptom, and can be mistaken for other symptoms, like those connected to chemotherapy, for example.
But overeating may also be saying, I am unhappy. I have no idea how to make this better but this feels good.
Being fat might be, I have an under active thyroid which has ambushed me, so no idea, never happened before.
It could also be, a genetic predisposition to a certain build, god, what do I do, not a perfect shape.
I just think that you may be lumping a whole lot of people into the same self-absorbed category.
Doesn't mean that we don't enjoy a pizza, though!
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Actually no I'm really not lumping everybody into the same category. I don't know these people therefore on face value I try not to judge people. I'm specifically talking about those that themselves have chosen a path. yes, there may be a hidden reason behind it and if so, again, I am not speaking about this people. Its just those that gotten themselves into a situation of there own making. The reasons for that making may allow some psychologists point me in the right direction.
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Actually no I'm really not lumping everybody into the same category. I don't know these people therefore on face value I try not to judge people. I'm specifically talking about those that themselves have chosen a path. yes, there may be a hidden reason behind it and if so, again, I am not speaking about this people. Its just those that gotten themselves into a situation of there own making. The reasons for that making may allow some psychologists point me in the right direction.
If anybody has got themselves into a situation of their own making then they are not that different from anybody else.
But an extreme situation?
Alcoholics Anonymous, drugs programmes.
I agree with you, it's not easy to see where an eating junkie can go for support.
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Fair point.
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On the day one Villa legend passes another turns 83 day today. Happy Birthday, Ron!
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Happy birthday Ron. Happy times watching very capable and exciting Villa sides.
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BFR is from a generation where certain words were tolerated, which rightly aren't now. As one of the pioneering managers when it came to bringing black players into the game, you can't really label him a racist.
Nah,he is a racist who has been doing it for years Chris said so.
Mind you its only what he has been told.
People are letting their memory of his time as our manager cloud their judgement. If he had not worked for us then he would get zero sympathy, he'd just be that racist ex baggies and manu manager.
The person who told me witnessed it first hand, is somebody I trust 100% and would have no reason to lie, he's also a Villa season ticket holder.
Didnt he play 11 black players for us against Everton?
No he didn't but I think it was a record amount of black players in an English game he fielded at Goodison Park at some point.
We really punched our weight and showed ambition under BFR.
I loved his Big Ron isms. "Stand On me", "Are you sure"? "Early doors".
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Happy Birthday Ron.
You gave us some very happy days and such a carefree style of play at times.
Our own Goal of the Month competition for quite some time.
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His Villa side were pure entertainment. And he rocked the gangland boss look. Happy Birthday Ron.
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He just shrugged off all the stick he got on the first day of the season after he returned to Hillsborough.
He just stood defiant on the touchline in his suit and sunglasses.
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It's weird reading catching-up on a thread from the "unread posts" point, from eight years ago! Anyway, happy birthday Ron.
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Happy Birthday Ron! X
1994 League Cup Final - never to be forgotten...
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Still my favourite manager and side. Happy birthday Ron.
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BFR is from a generation where certain words were tolerated, which rightly aren't now. As one of the pioneering managers when it came to bringing black players into the game, you can't really label him a racist.
Nah,he is a racist who has been doing it for years Chris said so.
Mind you its only what he has been told.
People are letting their memory of his time as our manager cloud their judgement. If he had not worked for us then he would get zero sympathy, he'd just be that racist ex baggies and manu manager.
The person who told me witnessed it first hand, is somebody I trust 100% and would have no reason to lie, he's also a Villa season ticket holder.
Didnt he play 11 black players for us against Everton?
No he didn't but I think it was a record amount of black players in an English game he fielded at Goodison Park at some point.
We really punched our weight and showed ambition under BFR.
I loved his Big Ron isms. "Stand On me", "Are you sure"? "Early doors".
It's all gone Humpty Dumpty down the middle.
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"He's not just a big duck egg"
It makes no sense in isolation but you'd know exactly what he meant.
He built the best Villa team I've ever seen.
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‘I’d be barmy to leave this club.’ One week before leaving Wednesday for the mighty Villa.
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I was at the Everton game. It was 8 black players. I remember being very proud of our club. Fair to say I was very disappointed in his later comments. Overall I was very entertained and happy about Ron's management and Big Fat Ron's Claret Blue Army sung repeatedly and at pace by the whole ground is still my favourite chant of all time.
Regarding the other comments about racism, ageism, classism, weight etc I agree with much of what Brian said. Put simply we all need to have respect and understanding of our fellow human beings. Look at what is going on now for where we end up if we don't. I agree that someone's weight is most often a result of a hidden psychological issue but at the same time it is seriously unhealthy and nothing to be proud of. We should always try to balance helping someone with making clear they have a responsibility to look after themselves. Treat everyone as you want to be treated yourself.
Happy Birthday Ron.
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You heard that booing at the end? I started it.
Our three Bulgarians were on show today. Wouldov Couldov and Shouldov.
Parker confused us all all by coming on and passing the ball.
I think the Inter spies watching that will be as confused as we were.
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Happy birthday, Ron.
On the whole racism thing, is it not possible to have some kind of middle ground? I remember having a hand painted Aston Villa team at the start of the 93/94 season and someone made some kind of "joke" comment that there weren't enough black players in it, but with rather less racially sensitive language.
The comment shocked me at the time, both as I'd only ever heard the language once before (from some Chelsea supporters at the ticket office at Aston station after a game - the Villa supporters there made abundantly clear to them that it wasn't acceptable language). It also did because I genuinely didn't see there being anything particularly unusual about the makeup of Villa's team. That, to me, was an absolutely fantastic legacy for BFR to leave. Along with one of my favourite Villa teams, of course.
It's difficult to reconcile that with some of his later comments. The language used was awful, and it surprises me that someone who clearly did a fair amount of media work, and worked with black footballers for a very long time, would not understand that what he was saying was offensive.
I dunno, I think these things aren't so black-and-white, you can hold someone in high regard and still condemn their actions.
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2:43 to 06:13 always makes me chuckle, especially Ron's last comment. Added bonus of a great FA cup tie.
&ab_channel=VillaBoy
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I loved almost everything about Rons years at Villa, the football was probably the most attractive exciting stuff I’ve seen and for all the media hype about Fergusons first league title in 93, we blew that league title run in as much as they won it.
But when Ron said what he said about Desailly, my heart sank, like it always does when you realise one of your heroes is fundamentally flawed in some of the most serious ways possible.
The whole debates about what constitutes racism and layering modern mores over earlier era’s are really complex and i agree with some of the sentiments about values changing over time and people being constructed by the era they grew up in and to a degree the unfairness of layering modern expectations on past times. However, i really struggle with the idea that people from whatever era cannot grow and develop and have a greater understanding of what is right, wrong and acceptable/unacceptable in different periods of time.
There have been examples used by other posters, but i grew up in a ethnically diverse part of inner city brum in the late 70s and 80s and there was throwaway racist terminology used all the time, the Asian ice cream man was Sam Sam the P**i Man. I had lots of black friends, but sometimes used racist terms myself. However, by the age of 14/15/16, in the late 80s, i had worked out myself this was offensive language liable to cause great upset and as an adult realised further how the development and use of such language is more than hurtful but utilised to subjugate whole groups of people. Looking back i cringe with more than embarrassment.
My point i guess is, even with Ron being a couple of generations older than me, why would we excuse him not knowing what he said was wrong, especially in the period of time he said it in, early 2000s was it? Are we saying that if he’d said that to Marcel Desaillys face or any black person, Ron wouldn’t of known that would be upsetting. Why would Ron use such evocative horrible language to describe a world cup winning defender, possibly one of the great defenders, if not to belittle his image and ability, reducing him to ‘one lazy n****r.
Ron provides me with some wonderful memories that will be with me forever. But Ron was a racist, if Ron hasn’t seen the error of what he said and more importantly what drove him to say it, Ron in my view still is a racist.
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2:43 to 06:13 always makes me chuckle, especially Ron's last comment. Added bonus of a great FA cup tie.
&ab_channel=VillaBoy
That’s is brilliant. BFR and Arthur Cox great respect. Alan Towers, Shilton, Sealey, God, Stix, Tin Man Ted, Yorkey, Paul Williams volley, Parker, Kubicki, Daley, Big Cyrille. It had it all. Loved it.
"He thinks you're crap, by the way." 🤣
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Went to that game at Derby, honestly thought that it was our season for winning the FA Cup
Loved BFR at the Villa, the football we played was fantastic, remember when he went on to the pitch to explain why we had not yet signed Saunders from Liverpool
Started to go down hill when he signed Fashanu from Wimbledon, he just did not suit the type of football that we played.
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Went to that Derby game too, was one of the first away games I went to. Absolutely loved it, still is one of my favourite ever Villa games.
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I loved his teams, and the football, but that racist comment means I'll never laud the man. It was disgraceful whichever way you try and dress it up; there's just no excuse whatsoever.
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I loved his teams, and the football, but that racist comment means I'll never laud the man. It was disgraceful whichever way you try and dress it up; there's just no excuse whatsoever.
It was, and it wasn't a one off. He made a comment about Earl Barrett at a Q&A at the Drakes Drum just after we'd signed him.
It's a paradox as he probably gave more black players opportunities than any other manager of his era, but then that served his own ends by making his teams better.
In my old school 90's definitions from Sociology, a racist would be someone that would hate and also use their power to deny opportunities and persecute other groups based of their colour, which doesn't fit with Ron, he's just a bigot.
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He’s another of that generation that even if your actions means you can’t be described as racist your language certainly can. To use the words in the way he did as some sort of analogy was offensive in the extreme. I think I defended what he’d said at the time as some sort of contextual misunderstanding but after reflecting I came to realise it was just an appalling piece of blatant bigotry. He couldn’t seem to get away from his inherent bias of what he thought about black footballers in general even though his actions could be said to have advanced their cause. Repeating the lazy stereotypes of his upbringing in whatever context was just really nasty.
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75? So that means he was 44 when he came to us from Wednesday. Mind blown.
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2:43 to 06:13 always makes me chuckle, especially Ron's last comment. Added bonus of a great FA cup tie.
&ab_channel=VillaBoy
That’s is brilliant. BFR and Arthur Cox great respect. Alan Towers, Shilton, Sealey, God, Stix, Tin Man Ted, Yorkey, Paul Williams volley, Parker, Kubicki, Daley, Big Cyrille. It had it all. Loved it.
"He thinks you're crap, by the way." 🤣
Most of the time we had a crap view at the Baseball Ground, a prime example being Tony Cascorino's debut.
However in the cup tie we were allocated seats and we actually had a good view. That was also yet another year
when it was definitely our year for the cup.
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75? So that means he was 44 when he came to us from Wednesday. Mind blown.
That was when this thread started. He's 83 now.
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75? So that means he was 44 when he came to us from Wednesday. Mind blown.
That was when this thread started. He's 83 now.
Doh! Thanks, it's still early here.
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I believe most of the black players who played under BFR enjoyed their time under him and accepted his 'bants'.
Although I think Brendan Batson was quite damning about Atkinson's racist comments that pretty much ended
his punditry career.
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75? So that means he was 44 when he came to us from Wednesday. Mind blown.
That was when this thread started. He's 83 now.
Doh! Thanks, it's still early here.
It caught me out at first, and I didn't have the excuse you did.