Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: fredm on November 26, 2013, 12:32:15 PM
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Listening to him talk about us last night was very impressed with the stature in which he holds us. "Big club", "terrific stadium" etc. Also made the point of our progress this year as opposed to last season saying that PL is building a team and it will take time for it to come together. Specifically mentioned that 8 - 12 position this season is where he expects us to be and this will be real progress from where we were last year.
Also good insight from him and Carragher regarding tactics and they highlighted Liverpools first goal on saturday. Described how teams will work on planning against opponents positions/tactics at corners etc all week and then when something different occured, as Liverpool did, how this can cause consternation and confusion. Illustrated by the looks and movements of the Everton players. I thought about this when we had 3 throw ins during the second half and each time the Baggies finished up with the ball.
Another bugbear of mine were the time Bacuna had the ball midway in the Baggies half when we were on top in the second half, and CB, Gabby and Andi were all together in the box, with the midfielders stood in the centre of the field. No one made a run or move to go out in front of Bacuna either to give him an option of playing it down the line as opposed to just hoisting it into the area together with the facts that such movement would also pull a defender(s) out of the box.
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I was very impressed with Neville's analysis of the match. He has lot of substance.
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The throw-in thing winds me up. I haven't seen a side lose so many of their own throw-ins as we do. We may as well just flip a coin.
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Did anyone also see Neville making that point about the first goal Spurs conceded at Man City, practically from the kick off?
At the point they (Spurs) kicked off, he highlighted there were five players strung across the pitch doing a mixture of stretching / tying up laces / squatting down, basically in no way ready to start the game.
They then kick off, the ball goes to Kaboul, he clearly hasn't woken up, who plays a poor backpass, keeper kicks it straight at the Man City player, and they concede.
I thought it was a really good point he was making.
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Listening to him talk about us last night was very impressed with the stature in which he holds us. "Big club", "terrific stadium" etc.
Before the first game of the season, they did a preview thing with Neville and Carragher. You should have heard Carragher bigging us up, said he wasn't a Villa fan but as a kid used to go to our matches etc etc. It was genuinely surprising to hear.
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I got stick in the pub for saying it last season but Neville is the best pundit around.
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I saw Carragher's mouth moving, I could not hear him....mind you, there was a pack of hounds howling outside the pub. :)
UTV
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I got stick in the pub for saying it last season but Neville is the best pundit around.
Yes he's a decent pundit, not keen on carragher though - too squeaky voiced .
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I got stick in the pub for saying it last season but Neville is the best pundit around.
What I like is he offers the sort of insight that we don't see ourselves, i.e. he uses his expertise and experience to offer a proper insight into the game. Contrast that with the 'he'll be disappointed with himself' of most pundits.
I also agree with his point that he hopes we stick with the way we are trying to play even though there could be mishaps along the way.
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I like Neville, When he speaks it feels like he has thought it through. Compare that to some of the pundits on MOTD.
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Its really annoying that Neville has turned out to be an excellent pundit and comes across as a decent bloke
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I've said all season Neville is the best pundit on TV, his analysis is always spot on and he seems to (for whatever reason) hold us in high esteem.
I detested him as a player mind.
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I enjoyed listening to Gary Neville he talks a lot of sense.
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Yeah, he's the most insightful of all of them. I think Carragher has improved due to Neville's level of expertise. BT's lot are a load of gubbins. Way too many pundits and the anchor acts a bit too much like a wanchor (didn't Ginola get into trouble for giving him that very hand-sign?).
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The throw-in thing winds me up. I haven't seen a side lose so many of their own throw-ins as we do. We may as well just flip a coin.
Couldn't agree more. I've never known a team so incapable of taking a throw-in and gaining an advantage from it. It's ridiculous. We gift the ball back so many times from poor throw-ins.
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Yeah, he's the most insightful of all of them. I think Carragher has improved due to Neville's level of expertise. BT's lot are a load of gubbins. Way too many pundits and the anchor acts a bit too much like a wanchor (didn't Ginola get into trouble for giving him that very hand-sign?).
I couldn't believe it when BT had Boris Becker as their pundit for the Dortmund v Bayern game last weekend. It just smacked of "let's get a famous german in, quickly, anyone!".
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BT's lot are a load of gubbins.
Who are the BT pundits?
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In the studio on a Saturday BT usually have a selection from Owen Hargreaves, Steve McManamam, David James, Daveeeeed Ginola and Neil Warnock, seen Tony Pulis on there too before now (not anymore though)
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Yeah, he's the most insightful of all of them. I think Carragher has improved due to Neville's level of expertise. BT's lot are a load of gubbins. Way too many pundits and the anchor acts a bit too much like a wanchor (didn't Ginola get into trouble for giving him that very hand-sign?).
I couldn't believe it when BT had Boris Becker as their pundit for the Dortmund v Bayern game last weekend. It just smacked of "let's get a famous german in, quickly, anyone!".
They also have the interesting Michael Owen.
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Yeah, he's the most insightful of all of them. I think Carragher has improved due to Neville's level of expertise. BT's lot are a load of gubbins. Way too many pundits and the anchor acts a bit too much like a wanchor (didn't Ginola get into trouble for giving him that very hand-sign?).
I couldn't believe it when BT had Boris Becker as their pundit for the Dortmund v Bayern game last weekend. It just smacked of "let's get a famous german in, quickly, anyone!".
They also have the interesting Michael Owen.
What a bunch - only warnock from those i would rate at all.
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Gary Neville has been great as a pundit and some of his insight is fantastic compared to what we see on other channels. His analysis as mentioned on City v spuds was good and So was the interesting points he made about Suarez's free kick.
I know the MOTD team say they don't get the time that they do on Sky but surely they could do a condensed version of what Neville and Carragher do (although Carragher's voice does grate).
Fed up of Hansen and shearer just telling us what we have already seen and know.
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As Chris says, the good thing with Neville is the genuine insight he gives that we would miss. Compare that with the mugs on MOTD for example.
I believe he also went on a coaching course to help with his insight.
He was still loathsome bastard as a player mind.
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Neville actually appears to care about the job, whereas I'd wager many other pundits wouldn't bother doing any sort of research before a game. He strikes me as the sort of person who'd make an excellent manager in time.
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If you lot are seriously suggesting that Red Nev is a better pundit than my hero Garth Crooks then you're bonkers. Anyway, I've got to stick my shoes in the oven before the monkey men tear a hole in the space time continuum.
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As Chris says, the good thing with Neville is the genuine insight he gives that we would miss. Compare that with the mugs on MOTD for example.
I believe he also went on a coaching course to help with his insight.
He was still loathsome bastard as a player mind.
I think that's why we have this thread. We all saw him as a player and thought we knew him and the consensus was that he was a twat. It has come as a shock to discover that he's not only an intelligent pundit but also a seemingly decent human being.
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I've seen a behind the scenes documentary of a MNF and Neville basically spends the whole day going through the major incidences of the weekend and looking at tactical aspects, deciding what he's going to use. They've introduced in-game analysis this season too; like yesterday they ringed Gabby, Benteke and Weimann to show the positions they were taking up. That sort of detail can take a few minutes to work out when watching on tv. When you're at the game, you have a bird's eye view of the whole pitch and it's obvious.
In the last couple of years Sky have started to put everyone else to shame. I say started because the other pundits don't do it.
With the analysis there's been times before now where I've not been interested in their game and just watched the pre-match analysis. I think they should do an hour-long show even when they don't have a game on a Monday.
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I've seen a behind the scenes documentary of a MNF and Neville basically spends the whole day going through the major incidences of the weekend and looking at tactical aspects, deciding what he's going to use.
Gary Neville is Ron Jaworski
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The throw-in thing winds me up. I haven't seen a side lose so many of their own throw-ins as we do. We may as well just flip a coin.
I don't remember the last time I saw somebody other than in an Under 10's game being pulled up for a foul throw, Villa did two in the Hull match alone. I don't think they know how to take them properly.
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Gary Neville is I've seen a behind the scenes documentary of a MNF and Neville basically spends the whole day going through the major incidences of the weekend and looking at tactical aspects, deciding what he's going to use.
Gary Neville is Ron Jaworski
Who?
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Listening to him talk about us last night was very impressed with the stature in which he holds us. "Big club", "terrific stadium" etc.
Before the first game of the season, they did a preview thing with Neville and Carragher. You should have heard Carragher bigging us up, said he wasn't a Villa fan but as a kid used to go to our matches etc etc. It was genuinely surprising to hear.
7:24.
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I've seen a behind the scenes documentary of a MNF and Neville basically spends the whole day going through the major incidences of the weekend and looking at tactical aspects, deciding what he's going to use.
Gary Neville is Ron Jaworski
Who?
A former pundit on the "real "MNF, renowned for spending hours analysing video of the previous week's games
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I could listen to Neville all day, he's such an informed , knowledgeable pundit. Very genuine.
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Gary Neville has been great as a pundit and some of his insight is fantastic compared to what we see on other channels. His analysis as mentioned on City v spuds was good and So was the interesting points he made about Suarez's free kick.
I know the MOTD team say they don't get the time that they do on Sky but sure they could do a condensed version of what Neville and Carragher do (although Carragher's voice does grate).
Fed up of Hansen and shearer just telling us what we have already seen and know.
Neville can also be both informative and concise when he needs to be. He could do a far better job on his own on MOTD than 'the team' do.
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A former pundit on the "real "MNF, renowned for spending hours analysing video of the previous week's games
UKR means that so called real football they play in America where, virtually, no one kicks the ball with their feet!
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If you lot are seriously suggesting that Red Nev is a better pundit than my hero Garth Crooks then you're bonkers.
No no that would be heresy. Garth is the God Zeus of football punditry!
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If you lot are seriously suggesting that Red Nev is a better pundit than my hero Garth Crooks then you're bonkers.
No no that would be heresy. Garth is the God Zeus of football punditry!
Ha Ha ;D
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The throw-in thing winds me up. I haven't seen a side lose so many of their own throw-ins as we do. We may as well just flip a coin.
I reckon we must quickly lose posession on about 80% of our throw ins.
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The throw-in thing winds me up. I haven't seen a side lose so many of their own throw-ins as we do. We may as well just flip a coin.
I reckon we must quickly lose posession on about 80% of our throw ins.
I reckon it is only 75.4%.
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BT's lot are a load of gubbins.
Who are the BT pundits?
We have BT Sport free courtesy of BT Broadband, but to be honest, I forget about it most of the time.
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Somebody somewhere wrote that Neville's approach to punditry is similar to his approach to games - not the most talented player (or charismatic tv presenter) but he worked hard and most importantly did his homework. Apparently when he was playing he'd spend ages studying his opponents, and like someone said a few posts back, he does the same preparing his punditry.
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Neville is a top top pundit, people have been saying this for a while now in fairness.
Amuses me you get that from him and yet the analysis is so basic from other ex England players on MOTD. Is it just time constraints or are they told to dumb down to the viewer on there?
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I think it is just that he tries to do it well and others are there for the pay check.
What puzzles me is as assistant boss with England, he must give Roy some real insight at times, and yet we have looked tactically poor in several games.
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Not sure where the Neville worship comes from, I think he just states the obvious. Its a simple game.
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Not sure where the Neville worship comes from, I think he just states the obvious. Its a simple game.
It is the comparison to the other pundits on TV.
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
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I think it is just that he tries to do it well and others are there for the pay check.
What puzzles me is as assistant boss with England, he must give Roy some real insight at times, and yet we have looked tactically poor in several games.
The players love playing their 4-4-2 in their straight lines is the problem i think.
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Not sure where the Neville worship comes from, I think he just states the obvious. Its a simple game.
Firstly it isn't worship, it's recognition that he does the job better than most other pundits. Secondly, it isn't merely stating the obvious; he has pointed out technical aspects of games that, for example, I haven't seen from anyone on this site.
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I think it is just that he tries to do it well and others are there for the pay check.
What puzzles me is as assistant boss with England, he must give Roy some real insight at times, and yet we have looked tactically poor in several games.
The players love playing their 4-4-2 in their straight lines is the problem i think.
That's Woy's single way of setting teams up, isn't it?
He organises them very well and you always get the idea they know what they're meant to be doing, but that's about the limit of England.
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Not sure where the Neville worship comes from, I think he just states the obvious. Its a simple game.
Firstly it isn't worship, it's recognition that he does the job better than most other pundits. Secondly, it isn't merely stating the obvious; he has pointed out technical aspects of games that, for example, I haven't seen from anyone on this site.
Oversimplifying things a bit too much there, someone on this site doing that level of analysis based on footage picked by someone who doesn't know what they're looking for is nearly impossible, doing that level of analysis with 14 camera angles is a bit easier.
I'm not saying Neville isn't good at what he does, just pointing out that comparing him to fans on a forum is pointless, comparing him to the shit on motd is fair game and in that measure he comes out really well.
I think I could provide as much insight as Neville given the footage and stats he has access to, and I think a few others on here could as well (I pointed out early into our good period last season that the reported positions of Benteke and Gabby were at odds with where they actually influenced play, the heatmaps (areas where they touch the ball) back up that whilst we were nominally a 433 with weimann and gabby outside benteke what we actually saw was Benteke and Gabby both playing in the inside left channel and Weimann playing inside right.
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Alan Brazil is the best pundit for me. Why don't we see more of him on TV ?
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Alan Brazil is the best pundit for me. Why don't we see more of him on TV ?
I think it's due to the aspect ratio.
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Alan Brazil is the best pundit for me. Why don't we see more of him on TV ?
I think it's due to the aspect ratio.
Also, given the advent of very large, high definition televisions, imagine that bloated piss head's broken-veined face filling your living room.
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Alan Brazil is the best pundit for me. Why don't we see more of him on TV ?
I think it's due to the aspect ratio.
Also, given the advent of very large, high definition televisions, imagine that bloated piss head's broken-veined face filling your living room.
It could void the warranty on your telly, burn out on the reds
It's a legal minefield, it's not worth the hassle, especially when he's so good on the radio.
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Not sure where the Neville worship comes from, I think he just states the obvious. Its a simple game.
Firstly it isn't worship, it's recognition that he does the job better than most other pundits. Secondly, it isn't merely stating the obvious; he has pointed out technical aspects of games that, for example, I haven't seen from anyone on this site.
Oversimplifying things a bit too much there, someone on this site doing that level of analysis based on footage picked by someone who doesn't know what they're looking for is nearly impossible, doing that level of analysis with 14 camera angles is a bit easier.
I'm not saying Neville isn't good at what he does, just pointing out that comparing him to fans on a forum is pointless, comparing him to the shit on motd is fair game and in that measure he comes out really well.
I think I could provide as much insight as Neville given the footage and stats he has access to, and I think a few others on here could as well (I pointed out early into our good period last season that the reported positions of Benteke and Gabby were at odds with where they actually influenced play, the heatmaps (areas where they touch the ball) back up that whilst we were nominally a 433 with weimann and gabby outside benteke what we actually saw was Benteke and Gabby both playing in the inside left channel and Weimann playing inside right.
Totally disagree, Paul. I don't think you could provide the same level of knowledge into my job as I could, i don't think Neville could speak in as informed a manner about as you can about your own role. He is an articulate man who has spent his whole life in the game playing at the highest level, that's 7 days a week totally immersed in football, I think it is arrogant to assume that we are able to offer anything like the same insight.
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Not sure where the Neville worship comes from, I think he just states the obvious. Its a simple game.
Firstly it isn't worship, it's recognition that he does the job better than most other pundits. Secondly, it isn't merely stating the obvious; he has pointed out technical aspects of games that, for example, I haven't seen from anyone on this site.
Oversimplifying things a bit too much there, someone on this site doing that level of analysis based on footage picked by someone who doesn't know what they're looking for is nearly impossible, doing that level of analysis with 14 camera angles is a bit easier.
I'm not saying Neville isn't good at what he does, just pointing out that comparing him to fans on a forum is pointless, comparing him to the shit on motd is fair game and in that measure he comes out really well.
I think I could provide as much insight as Neville given the footage and stats he has access to, and I think a few others on here could as well (I pointed out early into our good period last season that the reported positions of Benteke and Gabby were at odds with where they actually influenced play, the heatmaps (areas where they touch the ball) back up that whilst we were nominally a 433 with weimann and gabby outside benteke what we actually saw was Benteke and Gabby both playing in the inside left channel and Weimann playing inside right.
Totally disagree, Paul. I don't think you could provide the same level of knowledge into my job as I could, i don't think Neville could speak in as informed a manner about as you can about your own role. He is an articulate man who has spent his whole life in the game playing at the highest level, that's 7 days a week totally immersed in football, I think it is arrogant to assume that we are able to offer anything like the same insight.
Much of what he says is based primarily on his however many hundred games for Man United, too. There's only one way you can get that type of insight.
Jonathan Wilson, for example, is a journalist who knows a lot about tactics and the game in general, and he too could probably arrive at some interesting conclusions, given time and footage, but he's never going to be able to talk about it from the point of view of a premier league player, because he's never been one.
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He is an articulate man who has spent his whole life in the game playing at the highest level, that's 7 days a week totally immersed in football, I think it is arrogant to assume that we are able to offer anything like the same insight.
I'd fancy most of us to offer more insight than the likes of Alan Shearer and Mark Lawrenson and they've also "spent their whole life in the game playing at the highest level, 7 days a week totally immersed in football".
I don't think it's much to do with the fact that he's a former player, just that he's a good pundit.
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He is an articulate man who has spent his whole life in the game playing at the highest level, that's 7 days a week totally immersed in football, I think it is arrogant to assume that we are able to offer anything like the same insight.
I'd fancy most of us to offer more insight than the likes of Alan Shearer and Mark Lawrenson and they've also "spent their whole life in the game playing at the highest level, 7 days a week totally immersed in football".
I don't think it's much to do with the fact that he's a former player, just that he's a good pundit.
Which was the point I was trying to make, albeit very badly. I think the value of experience as a player is vastly overrated because it only becomes relevant if you are, first and foremost, a good analyst. I am an analyst with a good understanding of football as an amateur and a viewer, that's why I think I could provide much of what Neville does and I could do a far better job than any of the bbc/itv/bt pundits.
When Neville likens things to his career and how things were approached by his team and draws on that experience he clearly has better knowledge than most, when he talks about other things he's just as much a viewer as anyone else, it's just that's he pays attention and has good analyst skills.
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I don't know how many pundits have done all their badges either. That makes a difference between pundits. A pundit like Neville understands how to set a team-up and other technical details whilst your average MOTD pundit wouldn't see those kinds of things.
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Anyone who thinks they could offer the same insight as a former player should spend a game sitting next to one.
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Alan Brazil is the best pundit for me. Why don't we see more of him on TV ?
I think it's due to the aspect ratio.
Very good
When they announced GN all i could think of was another Man U wankfest but he has really surprised me
Carragher is also knowledgable but his voice is sometimes at a pitch only woodland creatures can hear
Both though are better than anything the BBC have at present (Other than Shearer)
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I don't know how many pundits have done all their badges either. That makes a difference between pundits. A pundit like Neville understands how to set a team-up and other technical details whilst your average MOTD pundit wouldn't see those kinds of things.
Another element which i believe is more important than being a player, some players (such as Neville and by all accounts Southgate and OGS to name a few) want to absorb everything and learn about the game beyond just playing, those are the ones who can use their experience to teach others, either as coaches, managers or pundits, and are also likely to want to do well in those areas. The likes of Shearer and Owen will have worked on their own game but won't have gained massive tactical expertise because of it and hence they make dull pundits and, in shearers case, poor managers.
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Anyone who thinks they could offer the same insight as a former player should spend a game sitting next to one.
I'd love to. I've done it with rugby (I watched an england game with, amongst others, John Bentley who played for England and the lions) and I found it very interesting to hear his thoughts but I also noticed a few things he hadn't.
Just to add to clarify, I don't think I could offer the same insight, but I do think i could offer equally valuable insight.
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I think neville and now carragher give a better insight due to the fact they have only been out of the game for a short time and can still relate to how the games is played now , whereas the likes of hansen,lineker etc played years ago when the game was different in so many ways
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My two year old could give more insight than the likes of Alan Shear and Lawrenson combined
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My two year old could give more insight than the likes of Alan Shear and Lawrenson combined
Maybe not Lawrenson, but in the case of Shearer I have seen him give some good analysis on MOTD. As one example, he looked and Joe Allen for Liverpool last season and commented on his passing being too sideways and highlighting the forward options he was ignoring in certain situation. Not necessarily mind blowing, but better than he's often accused of.
Problem being, 9 time out of 10 it's the usual bland cliched nonsense that tells you nothing you didn't know from watching the game yourself.
To me it's laziness as opposed to lack of knowledge and the blame for that lies with the producers for letting them get away with it.
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I don't have Sky so rarely hear Neville but when I have done I think he is very good. The insight from intelligent former players is wonderful and they see loads of things that I don't. Obviously 14 cameras helps but they have to know what they are looking for in the first place. As paul e says above, certain players are interested in tactics and formations, others just want to play and will blatantly never be coaches or analysts.
At a Villa game I am usually in the Holte Upper or behind the goal in an away end with poor visibility of the whole pitch so am unable to state much more than the bleeding obvious. I was in the upper tier at Wembley last week with decent seats and it was incredible how much more insight you can garner from being less passionately involved and with a sightline of the whole pitch (and not just the section of play the cameras show). My newly acquired insight allowed me to understand that England were shit and only Gerrard looked comfortable on the ball.
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Id like him as Lamberts right hand man ;) excellent pundit
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Id like him as Lamberts right hand man ;) excellent pundit
I'll bet we wouldn't start the first 10 minutes of the match by pitty patting the ball around amongst our back four before passing it back to Guzan to launch upfield everytime. We would be on the front foot having a go at the opposition and putting them under pressure especially at home. The way we start it seems that it's always us under pressure.
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One thing I will say about MOTD is that Neville will have had the Sunday and/or Monday to go through the tapes. Not a luxury the likes of Shearer has so the analysis is never going to be as in-depth. That's not to say they could still do a better job in the time they have.
I remember being pretty grateful for MOTD coming back having seen ITV's failed equivalent.
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I got stick in the pub for saying it last season but Neville is the best pundit around.
No I agree, I've said it and my mates a nose and he loves him, It's wierd because I really disliked him as a player but he is excellent
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What Phil does is explain a little better the tactics and changes you say in the game. And he does it at half time or straight afterwards, not read the match report like Shearer seems to do. MOTD tend to just talk over the top describing what you can see on the screen (or the bleeding obvious like my late great aunt would say). I think MOTD misses a chance to have an in depth piece each week on a rule (say the offside rule), or a player role/official role which would help youngsters learn about the game rather than hearing just about the bad decisions and which manager got sacked
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He is an articulate man who has spent his whole life in the game playing at the highest level, that's 7 days a week totally immersed in football, I think it is arrogant to assume that we are able to offer anything like the same insight.
I'd fancy most of us to offer more insight than the likes of Alan Shearer and Mark Lawrenson and they've also "spent their whole life in the game playing at the highest level, 7 days a week totally immersed in football".
I don't think it's much to do with the fact that he's a former player, just that he's a good pundit.
But he would not be such a good pundit without having played the game at the level he has for so long.
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What a lot of older, knowledgable viewers will see as 'stating the bleeding obvious' might actually be useful to younger viewers or people who don't know the game so well but are interested in learning more. Getting the balance right is the trick.
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I think Gary Neville is very good,
but you cant compare him to those on MOTD as they get very little time a few minutes at most, whereas Neville gets a programme to himself as well as big shifts before and after a game
not that I think MOTD pundits are any good, I just don't take much notice of them to be fair, so they don't really bother me
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Pat Nevin does some good stuff on the BBC website occasionally. I'm surprised he's not used more often as a pundit.
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Pat Nevin does some good stuff on the BBC website occasionally. I'm surprised he's not used more often as a pundit.
I really like Pat Nevin.
I thought this was good: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24857012 (particularly interesting given the goals we conceded against City the other week)
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Anyone who thinks they could offer the same insight as a former player should spend a game sitting next to one.
I once sat next to Nobby Stiles on a flight from Budapest to London. The flight time coincided with England v Germany Euro 2000 Group qualifying game. Nobby said nothing!