Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Off Topic => Sports Arena => Topic started by: OzVilla on October 21, 2013, 09:52:35 PM
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One of the most enjoyable threads ever on H&V was the Ashes thread for 2010/11 and i've just read that the England boys leave for Oz on Wednesday this week before their first game against Western Australia starting on 31st Oct.
Is anybody planning any trips Down Under for this? There are still plenty of tickets available I believe - certainly for the Gabba.
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I've got tickets for Fri, Sat & Sun at the Gabba.
Also going to Adelaide and Sydney.
If they can avoid defeat at the Gabba, England have a very good chance of retaining it.
Loose the first one and it's difficult to get back into it against Aus in Aus.
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:'(Wish I was going!
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Ballance has to start at six instead of Bairstow.
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Got tickets for the first 4 days at The Gabba. Going with mates who are a Boggie and a Nose, along with a Palace friend too.
That number 6 spot will be decided in the tour games. Having not seen Balance i've no idea about him.
Any news on Pietersen joining the squad?
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Pietersen flying out tomorrow apparently,
Not sure on Ballance yet, hopefully he will get his chance in the warmup games.
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Ballance was the rock on which Yorkshires title challenge was built.
He averages over 50 in both first class and list a cricket, over a decent no of matches.
From what I've seen of him, i've always thought he is a better prospect than Root and Taylor.
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Ballance was the rock on which Yorkshires title challenge was built.
He averages over 50 in both first class and list a cricket, over a decent no of matches.
From what I've seen of him, i've always thought he is a better prospect than Root and Taylor.
It's a big step up, Bell is the example to look at, exceptional at club level for a long time but internationally he was inconsistent for a long time, it's only the last 12-18months where he's really showing the form he did for Warwickshire on a regular basis. Middle order batsmen in particular need time to show they can contribute regularly so, if he plays Ballance needs to be judged on his technique and temperament rather than his scores. Bairstow had a poor ashes but his record is no worse than a number of others, the issue was that he never looked right at the crease and was waiting to get out rather than expecting a big score.
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Bairstow's technique is suspect for me and I don't think he will ever be up to it at Test Match level.
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If we're not 100% on a batsman at six then I would ease the burden on the quicks and go with prior at six and, say, Stokes at seven. Then you're looking at Stokes, Broad, Swann, Anderson, Rankin. That still gives batting down to nine and a greater chance of breakthroughs in what should be higher scoring matches.
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I doubt they'll go with an extra bowler. England tend to choose the conservative option and, in any case, Cook has been banging on about the need to score 400+.
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You're right, but we have tried and failed to find a number six for so long now - since Colly retired and Bell moved to five - that having a bowler who can bat at seven would surely help. For instance, if Bairstow fails at six, what else can he do? Be reserve wicketkeeper.
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Bairstow is only in the squad as reserve keeper so I can only see him playing if Prior gets injured.
I hope Balance makes it. Messrs Boycott and Vaughan have raved about him for a while as they did for Root so let's hope we see the same again.
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I think Stokes long term could give us a better balance as a side.
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I think Stokes long term could give us a better balance as a side.
Prior up to 6 and Bres at 7 has been my thinking for about the last year, then Stokes can be eased in to 7 long term. We should give Ballance a good look though.
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I think Stokes long term could give us a better balance as a side.
Stokes has a hell of a lot of potential. I think he's a couple of years away in his development at the moment though.
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I will try the first post with vitriol. As long as we beat the dirty convict bastards again I dont care who we pick.
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England team v WA Chairman's XI: Root, Carberry, Trott, Bell, Ballance, Stokes, Prior (capt & wk), Rankin, Tremlett, Finn, Anderson.
I'd like to think they agree with my Stokes idea, but I'm not kidding myself. Five quicks and one part time spinner, it's a statement of intent - thanks for preparing strips our bowlers love!
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England team v WA Chairman's XI: Root, Carberry, Trott, Bell, Ballance, Stokes, Prior (capt & wk), Rankin, Tremlett, Finn, Anderson.
I'd like to think they agree with my Stokes idea, but I'm not kidding myself. Five quicks and one part time spinner, it's a statement of intent - thanks for preparing strips our bowlers love!
Interesting team especially as I'm hoping to see Stokes involved in the Tests.
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England team v WA Chairman's XI: Root, Carberry, Trott, Bell, Ballance, Stokes, Prior (capt & wk), Rankin, Tremlett, Finn, Anderson.
I'd like to think they agree with my Stokes idea, but I'm not kidding myself. Five quicks and one part time spinner, it's a statement of intent - thanks for preparing strips our bowlers love!
After 90 overs:
Bowling O M R W Econ
JM Anderson 16 7 31 1 1.93
CT Tremlett 17 4 71 0 4.17 (2nb)
WB Rankin 18 1 87 1 4.83 (1nb)
ST Finn 18 0 87 0 4.83
JE Root 11 2 32 1 2.90
BA Stokes 10 0 56 1 5.60 (1nb, 1w)
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I look forward to comparing with their bowling figures after 90 overs...
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England team v WA Chairman's XI: Root, Carberry, Trott, Bell, Ballance, Stokes, Prior (capt & wk), Rankin, Tremlett, Finn, Anderson.
Are the playing 4-3-3 or going with two up front?
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I'm not overly worried by those bowling figures, only Jimmy of those is a genuine frontline bowler for us and his figures are good on a slow pitch. Swann and Broad will be in when the games matter so really the others are competing for the last spot in our 4 man attack. These are the type of games where you want the fringe bowlers to earn a spot in the tests, none of them has done that today which is a shame but it's also nothing to be concerned about.
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I'm not overly worried by those bowling figures, only Jimmy of those is a genuine frontline bowler for us and his figures are good on a slow pitch. Swann and Broad will be in when the games matter so really the others are competing for the last spot in our 4 man attack. These are the type of games where you want the fringe bowlers to earn a spot in the tests, none of them has done that today which is a shame but it's also nothing to be concerned about.
Same here. This match is the cricket equivalent of the first pre season friendly 3 days after the players have reported back.
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Nice to see Bell carry his form over from the summer today, from the very brief footage I've seen he looked excellent. This has also shown that there's very little in the pitch for the bowlers, which was expected after yesterday.
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I wasn't expecting much from this or the other warm-up matches as we're always shit at the start of a tour. I just hope we're ready for when the first test comes along.
Good to see Root take a wicket. I thought he could have been used more in the summer and he's a good option as the second spinner. I do wonder whether we should change Bell and Root round in the batting line-up though. It seems odd that Bell opens in the one-dayers with Root at 5 and then we do the reverse for the 5 dayers. I know he opens for his club side but it's asking a lot of a young player to expect them to open at international level.
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Well done Boyd Rankin for taking the.first 2 wickets in their 2nd innings.
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Decent game for all the England Bears.
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Shane Warne flapping his gums about Cook and his best buddy Clarke in the media today. He says Clarke is the best captain in the world, which is a tough sell at the moment given their record.
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Shane Warne flapping his gums about Cook and his best buddy Clarke in the media today. He says Clarke is the best captain in the world, which is a tough sell at the moment given their record.
Clarke is very bold in his captaincy which is giving this impression that he's a great captain, the issue is, it's a hell of a lot easier to be bold when you don't stand much chance of winning otherwise but when you've performed very well despite being a little conservative it's not so easy to convince yourself that the bold move is worth the risk.
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Tactically Clarke is a great captain, certainly better than Cook. Where he lacks is in the building of a united dressing room. Too many Aussie players seem to play for themselves first and not for the team which is never a recipe for success.
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Tactically Clarke is a great captain, certainly better than Cook. Where he lacks is in the building of a united dressing room. Too many Aussie players seem to play for themselves first and not for the team which is never a recipe for success.
This is my point, Cook has better players so he doesn't need to use aggressive tactics to win games. Clarke has no choice but to go ultra-aggressive at the first hint of weakness because his team is poor, so which is the better captain based on that?
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Tactically Clarke is a great captain, certainly better than Cook. Where he lacks is in the building of a united dressing room. Too many Aussie players seem to play for themselves first and not for the team which is never a recipe for success.
This is my point, Cook has better players so he doesn't need to use aggressive tactics to win games. Clarke has no choice but to go ultra-aggressive at the first hint of weakness because his team is poor, so which is the better captain based on that?
Cook, as it stands Clarke's team doesn't win test matches.
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I don't think you can compare Cook and Clarke in terms of aggressive captaincy without recognising the coaching style they play under.
Flower is a structured, conventional sort of coach, whilst Lehmann is more of a risk taker. The team ethos will ultimately determine the style of captaincy
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I think it helps to have a really strong side or a fairly weak side to be an aggressive captain. The great Aussie side could do it and just blow teams away, the team Clarke captains now has no real choice but to be aggressive in order to engineer opportunities. England are in between those two sides, we're pretty good so we can't really blow teams away but there's no real need to be wreckless either.
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I think it helps to have a really strong side or a fairly weak side to be an aggressive captain. The great Aussie side could do it and just blow teams away, the team Clarke captains now has no real choice but to be aggressive in order to engineer opportunities. England are in between those two sides, we're pretty good so we can't really blow teams away but there's no real need to be wreckless either.
Exactly how I see it, we're good enough to beat most sides in a series and for the top 2 or 3 it comes down entirely to individual form. This summer we won the ashes with a conservative approach and 3-4 players well below par, why take risks in that situation? I think we could be a better side with a few more risks but the incentive to take them is nothing like enough. It's a shame we don't have a series against SA for another 2 years as they're the side we'd have to take a few risks against.
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No point in taking Australia on at their own game, that's exactly want they want us to do. All the comments from them from the likes of Warne are there to try to get Cook and England away from their game plans, no need, if we have to grind them into the dirt again with Trott scoring 50's from 200 balls then so be it.
It'll frustrate them into making the same mistakes they did in the summer, and let's face it, it it weren't for a few freakish lower-order stands from the Aussies the result would have been even more comprehensive.
Warne's recent comments are just bollocks - "If Cook doesn't change his conservative game plans then I can see them losing The Ashes." Yes Shane, he should abandon the tactics that won them 3-0 in the summer just so it gives the convicts a glimmer of hope, dream on mate.
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England won toss and are batting against Australia 'A'.
4-0 3 overs
Team: Cook, Carberry, Trott, Pietersen, Root, Ballance, Prior, Swann, Tremlett, Anderson.
Bell rested which just leaves Bairstow and Panesar who have not featured on tour so far.
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England won toss and are batting against Australia 'A'.
4-0 3 overs
Team: Cook, Carberry, Trott, Pietersen, Root, Ballance, Prior, Swann, Tremlett, Anderson.
Bell rested which just leaves Bairstow and Panesar who have not featured on tour so far.
I'm okay with this - Bell for Ballance and poss Rankin or Finn for Tremlett if he doesn't step up in this game looks strong to me.
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I've only named 10 above missed Broad out - sorry...so yes 7 certainties (Cook, Trott, Pietersen, Prior, Swann, Broad, Anderson ) playing today plus Bell. The fact that Carberry is opening suggests to me that perhaps Root isn't a certainty. Tremlett needs to do well as yes he could be replaced by Rankin or Finn. Ballance won't play in Test which could let in Stokes.
24-0 Carberry 7, Cook 16 10.2 overs
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Cook 37
Carberry 26
66-0 22 overs
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Cook 50
Carberry 34
87/0 29 overs
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Lunch 31 overs
91/0
Cook 53 (97)
Carberry 35 (91)
Bedtime for me!!!!
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Cook 154
Carberry 153
Extras 11
England 318-0 at close of play.
Not bad.
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Interesting to see root dropping back down the order - splendid days cricket - normal service resumed :)
I think root looked better at number 6 and this is a better set up than Bairstow in there .
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Is that Carberry playing himself into the team, freeing up Root to take the 6 spot.
Apart from one big score Root has not looked that good against the new ball, even struggling at 6 when a new cherry was taken.
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Well well. Good on Carberry for seizing his chance.
That makes it very interesting. Difficult to see how you wouldn't now open with Cook and Carberry and bat Root at 6 tbh.
It would potentially solve a couple of issues we have.
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I like Root at 6, as it puts a grinder amongst some very attacking players. Adds balance to the team.
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That Carberry innings makes things very interesting.
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yep watched about an hour last night and vs the new ball we looked pretty safe, for me it probably would of been Carberry to open as that is his position and if he can get a good score in the opening test then he will probably keep the place for the tour.
First Test
Cook
Carberry
Trott
Pietersen
Bell
Root
Prior
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Tremlett (if Bresnan not fit)
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The advantage of Carberry being there is that he seems more willing to 'take on' a bowler, look at his treatment of the spinner today for example, none of Cook, Root or Trott offer that which is why we've looked a little predictable in the last year or 2. Having an opener who can hit a few big shots to relieve pressure is valuable.
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I've only named 10 above missed Broad out - sorry...so yes 7 certainties (Cook, Trott, Pietersen, Prior, Swann, Broad, Anderson ) playing today plus Bell. The fact that Carberry is opening suggests to me that perhaps Root isn't a certainty. Tremlett needs to do well as yes he could be replaced by Rankin or Finn. Ballance won't play in Test which could let in Stokes.
Team picking itself nicely now for first test: Cook, Carberry, Trott. Pietersen, Bell, Root, Prior, Broad, Swann, Anderson plus Tremlett if he does well in this game, if not Rankin or Finn!!!
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I follow few ex-Cricketers on Twitter and several of them have been tweeting Carberry was the answer to our top order problem since Strauss retired.
We've got a good record of introducing new players into important series so I think Carberry could do well.
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I follow few ex-Cricketers on Twitter and several of them have been tweeting Carberry was the answer to our top order problem since Strauss retired.
We've got a good record of introducing new players into important series so I think Carberry could do well.
As it stands my team would be
Cook
Carberry
Trott
KP
Bell
Root
Prior
Broad
Swann
Tremlett
Anderson
I don't you can ignore Carberry after his last couple of innings, and I think Root being in the middle order really strengthens our batting. Tremlett is in for me at the moment on an experience basis, but if Finn or Rankin bowl brilliantly they could force their way in.
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I think the only question left now is Finn, Rankin or Tremlett. That will just go down to form and conditions so we should be in good shape.
I wonder whether the Aussies are regretting not playing a stronger bowling line-up? Now our batsmen will be going into the first match with some confidence.
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the 3rd seamer is the interesting one now, On form Rankin edges it but he's far and away the least experienced.
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And of course there's Bresnan to bring into the mix, he's approaching full fitness.
It's a nice problem to have and will enable us to select a third seamer based upon pitch conditions on the 1st morning of a test. Fast and bouncy then Finn, Tremlett or Rankin. If it's more batsman-friendly or looks like it will seam then Bresnan comes into the equation.
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And of course there's Bresnan to bring into the mix, he's approaching full fitness.
It's a nice problem to have and will enable us to select a third seamer based upon pitch conditions on the 1st morning of a test. Fast and bouncy then Finn, Tremlett or Rankin. If it's more batsman-friendly or looks like it will seam then Bresnan comes into the equation.
I didn't think Bresnan was going to be back until at least the 2nd test, if he's fit it's probably his place to lose.
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And of course there's Bresnan to bring into the mix, he's approaching full fitness.
It's a nice problem to have and will enable us to select a third seamer based upon pitch conditions on the 1st morning of a test. Fast and bouncy then Finn, Tremlett or Rankin. If it's more batsman-friendly or looks like it will seam then Bresnan comes into the equation.
spot on for me.....fast bouncy then any of the 3 quicks and a seaming batter then Bresnan if fit.
Bresnan is there and nearing full fitness.....
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If it's fast and bouncy, which I expect it will be it'll be one of Rankin, Finn or Tremlett.
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Carberry has earned his chance and he deserves his shot at the first Test, but I wish he'd change his batting helmet.
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Carberry has earned his chance and he deserves his shot at the first Test, but I wish he'd change his batting helmet.
Agree on both counts!! Root at six will help him as well.
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Carberry has earned his chance and he deserves his shot at the first Test, but I wish he'd change his batting helmet.
Agree on both counts!! Root at six will help him as well.
Maybe he thinks its aerodynamic shape helps him run faster?
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The weather is pretty much rubber stamping Carberry's place at the moment.
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I see Warne is slating Cook again, we should drop his as Captain apparently. Yes Shane, we'll drop the Captain who has only lost one out of 15 tests.
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I see Warne is slating Cook again, we should drop his as Captain apparently. Yes Shane, we'll drop the Captain who has only lost one out of 15 tests.
Warne seems to have taken Glenn McGrath's place as the peddler of pre-series absurd comments.
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Cook/Flower do err on the side of caution and could be deemed negative, indeed they have been criticised on these pages as such in the past. However this constant criticising and frankly ridiculous comments being spouted by Warne serve only one purpose - to get him in the papers. And it's working, without the need for Liz Hurley as well. Well done Shane.
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I think it's more trying to get Cook to make a mistake and be more aggressive.
I've said before I do believe Flower is coming towards the end of his time, he been an excellent coach but I don't know how much longer will be right for him to continue. We need someone a little more aggressive involved at some point, Morgan and Broad being the shorter form captains helps though, as they are both far more aggressive and that will have some impact on our approach over time.
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I think there are times when Cook lacks creativity and is perhaps overcautious but it's not like there's outstanding rival that jumps off the page at you. And it's not that often those traits even become apparent. I thought they did at Old Trafford in the last Ashes series but you can't really question the end result. He's still young for a captain too so there's time to work on his weak points.
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Cook and Strauss before him were both accused of being negative. Conservative tactics inevitably work against average test sides but when you come up against a good side it holds you back. Think South Africa's performance in England in 2012. We looked decidedly average under Strauss's conservative leadership and lost a 3 match series 2-0.
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Ballance's failure will pretty much confirm the batting line up now. Tremlett bowled well in his little spell as well.
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Ballance's failure will pretty much confirm the batting line up now. Tremlett bowled well in his little spell as well.
What was Tremletts pace like?
From what I saw from the backend of the summer for Surrey, he was only around 80-81 mph. If he's around that pace still he doesn't merit selection
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Ballance's failure will pretty much confirm the batting line up now. Tremlett bowled well in his little spell as well.
What was Tremletts pace like?
From what I saw from the backend of the summer for Surrey, he was only around 80-81 mph. If he's around that pace still he doesn't merit selection
Not so sure I agree. Tremlett's extra height and control on the bouncy Aussie wickets will still be a hanful for their batsmen, even if he has lost a bit of nip.
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Prior's injury and KP's knee problem flaring up again are worrying. We can survive without KP, we have before and will again. Prior would be a huge loss.
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KP and Prior being injured is a problem, I'm hoping they recover. Tremlett's pace was down a bit, but he's never been lightening fast.
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KP and Prior being injured is a problem, I'm hoping they recover. Tremlett's pace was down a bit, but he's never been lightening fast.
No, but I remember the last time we were down under Tremlett was around 85-87 mph. I just think that unless he's around that sort of pace now then Rankin and Finn offer more.
From what I can gather, both Prior and Pietersen are expected to be fine for 1st test.
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The strong feeling with the media pundits around the England camp is that tremlett seems a cert for the 1st test with broad, Anderson , and swann making up the bowling line up .
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Wouldn't surprise me.
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I'm a bit surprised we haven't called up a wicketkeeper replacement. I wouldn't want Bairstow as our wicketkeeper for a whole game, I'd have thought Kieswetter or Buttler should have been brought in.
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I'm a bit surprised we haven't called up a wicketkeeper replacement. I wouldn't want Bairstow as our wicketkeeper for a whole game, I'd have thought Kieswetter or Buttler should have been brought in.
Buttler should've gone anyway for me, he's a fantastic wicket keeper and his batting is improving to the point where he can now construct an innings in the shorter formats rather than just coming out swinging. After his summer going along with the test squad as the backup to Prior would've been just reward for me. Add in that he'll be in australia for the ODIs and T20 anyway and it really would've made sense to take him along early for the 'experience'.
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Aren't they (Buttler in particular) part of the performance squad that are over there?
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Yes, England have been very good at arranging tours for the 'B' team so that they can step in if needed.
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Aussie named their squad and no real surprises. Warner, Rogers, Watson, Clarke, Smith, Bailey, Haddin, Johnson, Faulkner, Siddle, Harris, Lyon.
Batting confirmed and only question is whether they go in with Faulkner as an all-rounder (Watson probably won't bowl, he'll strengthen the batting and might suit the Gabba pitch) or Lyon (solid spin option with a decent record at the Gabba).
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Johnson mouthing off already. I would love to see that cocky wanker get dispatched to all corners of the ground again and dropped.
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Bailey will be a threat he's been in excellent form.
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It does, on paper at least, look a stronger Aussie team than the summer.
Johnson's form will be absolutely key if they are to seriously challenge us though. I have a bad feeling he won't let his head go to pieces this time
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If Prior isn't fit it looks like Bairstow is going to keep wicket which is a bit of a concern.
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Will be a close series but I fancy England 2-1
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3 - 0 England. The Aussies will put up a better showing than in the summer but they are still a poor team.
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I think this series is going to be tough, the Aussie side looks stronger to me now and more confident. We're definitely going to improve on the level we achieved in the summer and be a lot more consistent.
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Michael Clarke didn't half make a cock out of himself announcing the England team. Must think he's the Cricket equivalent of Jose Mourinho. If I were Cook, I would just say that it's easy to name our team as we have a settled side and haven't spent the last couple of years experimenting.
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He seems to be believing Warne's hype that he's some sort of captaincy guru. Anyone can experiment and take risks when you're already taking a schelacking.
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Finn's spell might have made things interesting, sounds like he found his rhythm and pace. I don't think Carberry's failure will have an impact on his selection either.
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Finn's spell might have made things interesting, sounds like he found his rhythm and pace. I don't think Carberry's failure will have an impact on his selection either.
Aggers sounded distinctly unimpressed with Finn despite his five wickets
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It's good that all of the batsmen have got some runs across the 3 games, so should have confidence. I'm fairly happy with our top 6. Bowling is still a concern as none of the three big men has really grabbed the opportunity. I imagine it'll be Tremlett, because I always get the impression the selectors are looking for a reason to pick him, whereas with Finn they seem to always be looking for a reason to drop him.
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It's good that all of the batsmen have got some runs across the 3 games, so should have confidence. I'm fairly happy with our top 6. Bowling is still a concern as none of the three big men has really grabbed the opportunity. I imagine it'll be Tremlett, because I always get the impression the selectors are looking for a reason to pick him, whereas with Finn they seem to always be looking for a reason to drop him.
Top 6 does pick itself probably top 7 as it looks as though Matty Prior will be missing. I agree i think that Tremlett will get the nod. Just got to ensure that we don't lose the first test so the toss doubly important, win it , bat and get 450 on the board more if possible. We don't win very often in Brisbane - avoid defeat here and we will win series.
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I agree a draw would be a good result, but it does sound like Prior will hopefully be fit.
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It's good that all of the batsmen have got some runs across the 3 games, so should have confidence. I'm fairly happy with our top 6. Bowling is still a concern as none of the three big men has really grabbed the opportunity. I imagine it'll be Tremlett, because I always get the impression the selectors are looking for a reason to pick him, whereas with Finn they seem to always be looking for a reason to drop him.
Finn, like Monty, can be very effective, but the rest of his game is very poor so if things don't happen with the ball he offers nothing. All of our bowlers offer something in the field and with the bat (with the exception of Jimmy but he is an excellent fielder and one of the 3-4 best bowlers in the world so the same rules don't apply). For Finn to get a regular spot he needs to take 4-5 wickets every match, and at a reasonable economy because that is all he brings.
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I don't know Finn is much more capable with the bat than Monty. I think his primary issue is consistency and if we used him as a short burst strike bowler he'd be great.
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I don't know Finn is much more capable with the bat than Monty. I think his primary issue is consistency and if we used him as a short burst strike bowler he'd be great.
Monty is an exaggeration of it, he's truly terrible in the field and with the bat, Finn's just county level at both. Consistency is exactly my point though, if he starts taking 4-5 wickets a match minimum at around 25 runs a wicket he justifies his place, when he's not taking that many and/or costing 35-40runs for each he just doesn't justify selection, despite having some great spells. This is where Bres gets ahead of him because he averages 30 with the ball which is decent but not great, but backs up as a very capable fielder and with a 25-30 average with the bat as well.
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Anybody know how close Bresnan is to being fit? Or which test match he's looking at?
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Didn't Finn get a 50 against New Zealand?
Hoggard wasn't talented with the bat, but could hold up an end. Finn appears similar in that regard. To be honest with Broad at 8 and Swann at nine we shouldn't be looking for all rounders at 10 and 11. Pick the best bowlers.
His bowling average is below 30 and his strike rate is below 50. For me he is clearly the most talented of the 3 potentials. I'd personally put Tremlett behind both Finn and Rankin as his pace just isn't there.
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Didn't Finn get a 50 against New Zealand?
Hoggard wasn't talented with the bat, but could hold up an end. Finn appears similar in that regard. To be honest with Broad at 8 and Swann at nine we shouldn't be looking for all rounders at 10 and 11. Pick the best bowlers.
His bowling average is below 30 and his strike rate is below 50. For me he is clearly the most talented of the 3 potentials. I'd personally put Tremlett behind both Finn and Rankin as his pace just isn't there.
I agree on Tremlett, I don't think he's anything special. I really like Finn, I think he's got a lot of potential, but he reminds me a lot of Jimmy when he first came into the side, in that he's strugging when the pitch doesn't work for him, he needs to learn how to get wickets in those games, and more importantly to keep his head if it's not happening for him.
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Tremlett was very good on the last tour in Australia- I think he's pretty much odds on to start in Brisbane - Finn can be too wayward at times - the Aussies have a great record at the gabba - we need to stop them winning this test and I think we will go on to take the series - defeat in Brisbane for us would give the Aussies a huge lift - I'd be happy to take the draw and move on.
Regarding prior - I think he will probably be fit -
Cook, carberry, trott, pieterson, bell, root, prior, broad, swann, tremlett, Anderson .
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Tremlett will probably start but I hope he gets form back and we're not just picking him on his past. Carberry confirmed his place today and I'm glad we got a win.
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Going on Thursday and starting to get a little nervous. All the Aussie batsmen scoring heavily domestically.
Hope we select Rankin personally as the Aussies haven't seen him and he's probably the quickest of the trio. They'll look to go after Finn while Tremlett is nowhere near his best.
Aussies not lost at the Gabba for 24 year. They call it the Gabbatoir.
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The figures from the 2nd innings sum up Finn for me, got 3 in 20.3 for 88, rankin got 3 for 44 in a similar number of overs. Without seeing the game I might be wrong but I'd guess there will be a 20 from overs in there from Finn, which happens a lot.
I'd play Rankin if I'm honest, he's looked the best of the 3 from what I've seen and his figures are good.
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Tremlett was very good on the last tour in Australia- I think he's pretty much odds on to start in Brisbane - Finn can be too wayward at times - the Aussies have a great record at the gabba - we need to stop them winning this test and I think we will go on to take the series - defeat in Brisbane for us would give the Aussies a huge lift - I'd be happy to take the draw and move on.
Regarding prior - I think he will probably be fit -
Cook, carberry, trott, pieterson, bell, root, prior, broad, swann, tremlett, Anderson .
Yep, I too think that will be the line up. Still got my concerns about Carberry, but he has earned his chance. Very confident of a series win.
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Tremlett was very good on the last tour in Australia- I think he's pretty much odds on to start in Brisbane - Finn can be too wayward at times - the Aussies have a great record at the gabba - we need to stop them winning this test and I think we will go on to take the series - defeat in Brisbane for us would give the Aussies a huge lift - I'd be happy to take the draw and move on.
Regarding prior - I think he will probably be fit -
Cook, carberry, trott, pieterson, bell, root, prior, broad, swann, tremlett, Anderson .
Yep, I too think that will be the line up. Still got my concerns about Carberry, but he has earned his chance. Very confident of a series win.
The good thing for Carberry is that it would be hard for his partnership with Cook to go as badly as Root and Cook went in the summer. They're both fine players, but they didn't produce any solid partnerships in the summer.
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Agreed, root seemed a better batsman at number 6 , and Bairstow failed to make the spot his last summer .
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The weather is going to play a part......We need to come out with a draw at least, I would go with Rankin but Tremlett looks like he will play, lets hope Prior is fit
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I think that they may spring a surprise and name Rankin. all 3 are in shape and I don't think that they would drop him for the last game if he was going to play. They may still pick him, but a bowler who hasn't been in good form would surely benefit from another game if he was going to start the test.
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I think that they may spring a surprise and name Rankin. all 3 are in shape and I don't think that they would drop him for the last game if he was going to play. They may still pick him, but a bowler who hasn't been in good form would surely benefit from another game if he was going to start the test.
I hope so, he's the form player of the 3 for me and deserves the chance, Tremlett doesn't look like the same bowler who came in and did so well against them last time, his pace is down and they're not spitting up out of the pitch now like they did in that series whereas Rankin appears to be getting those. Finn I'm still not confident of his amended action (to avoid the stumps), it just doesn't look like it feels natural to him, we should've sent him back to his county in the summer and let him have a full program bowling as many overs as he could, as is it just looks too raw, which leads to some really bad spells from him.
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It's not stopped Finn taking the most wickets out of the warm-up games.
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Compton was good on 5live last night, he seems to have lost is bitterness and is adopting a much better attitude.
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Compton was good on 5live last night, he seems to have lost is bitterness and is adopting a much better attitude.
Will Truman and Edrich be fit to play though?
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It would be nice if we could start a series well and really go at the Aussies.
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No work till Monday.I just can't wait.I still expect England to pull a rabbit out by playing Rankin.
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Some heavy rain and torrential storms forecast for the middle 3 days - I fancied the draw before seeing the forecast - even more so now.
I think if the Aussies want to win the series a win in Adelaide is a must for them - think it will be a draw and England will win the series 2-1.
Bring it on!
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Some heavy rain and torrential storms forecast for the middle 3 days - I fancied the draw before seeing the forecast - even more so now.
I think if the Aussies want to win the series a win in Adelaide is a must for them - think it will be a draw and England will win the series 2-1.
Bring it on!
Must be looking at a different forecast. No rain first 3 days, slight chance of rain on the 4th, no rain on the 5th
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Eastie is Micheal Fish.
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Some heavy rain and torrential storms forecast for the middle 3 days - I fancied the draw before seeing the forecast - even more so now.
I think if the Aussies want to win the series a win in Adelaide is a must for them - think it will be a draw and England will win the series 2-1.
Bring it on!
Must be looking at a different forecast. No rain first 3 days, slight chance of rain on the 4th, no rain on the 5th
Watched the Aussie commentator on sky earlier and he says days 2,3 and 4 are forecast the sort of rain that we would never see in England - torrential - draw is very much the favourite in this match .
http://www.cricket365.com/basket/7187/story/9030309/Pitch-report-The-Gabba-Brisbane
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Some heavy rain and torrential storms forecast for the middle 3 days - I fancied the draw before seeing the forecast - even more so now.
I think if the Aussies want to win the series a win in Adelaide is a must for them - think it will be a draw and England will win the series 2-1.
Bring it on!
Must be looking at a different forecast. No rain first 3 days, slight chance of rain on the 4th, no rain on the 5th
Watched the Aussie commentator on sky earlier and he says days 2,3 and 4 are forecast the sort of rain that we would never see in England - torrential - draw is very much the favourite in this match .
http://www.cricket365.com/basket/7187/story/9030309/Pitch-report-The-Gabba-Brisbane
Odds on the draw are drifting with virtually every bookmaker. There's nothing really between any of the 3 outcomes at the moment.
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I will be quite happy with a draw- this is the Aussies best chance of a win for me - if we avoid defeat here we will go on to win the series - surprised bumble feels we will bowl if we win the toss .
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I'd settle for a rain-soaked draw and take the sting out of the Aussie hype.
We need to put the pressure on to make them go for a result and as we saw in the summer they will make mistakes. This generation of Aussie players doesn't handle the pressure/expectation well and the level of expectation from the Aussie public/media in a home Ashes series is huge.
They think of the Gabba as a fortress and haven't lost there since the all-powerful Windies side beat them in the late 1980's. They used to feel the same about Lords and we've shoved that one down their throats in the last two home series.
We should have enough to win the series but need Cooke and Trott to rediscover their best form.
COME ON ENGLAND
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I do really worry about the decision to go in with Tremlett. The Aussies hold all the aces in terms of sheer pace, on what are expected to be quick pitches.
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I do really worry about the decision to go in with Tremlett. The Aussies hold all the aces in terms of sheer pace, on what are expected to be quick pitches.
I'm not worried about tremlett, he will have to perform to keep his place - I think our bowling attack is better than theirs and the fast pitches will aid our bowlers too.
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I do really worry about the decision to go in with Tremlett. The Aussies hold all the aces in terms of sheer pace, on what are expected to be quick pitches.
I'm not worried about tremlett, he will have to perform to keep his place - I think our bowling attack is better than theirs and the fast pitches will aid our bowlers too.
I just can't see Tremlett having much of an impact at his current pace. He'd be 3rd choice for the 3rd seamer spot for me.
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I do really worry about the decision to go in with Tremlett. The Aussies hold all the aces in terms of sheer pace, on what are expected to be quick pitches.
I'm not worried about tremlett, he will have to perform to keep his place - I think our bowling attack is better than theirs and the fast pitches will aid our bowlers too.
I just can't see Tremlett having much of an impact at his current pace. He'd be 3rd choice for the 3rd seamer spot for me.
4th behind a Onions for me (5th is Bresnan is fit), I've never been a big fan anyway as he's only ever seemed really dangerous on a quick wicket with a bit of devil in it, but with 4-5mph off the pace he's not going to be as effective as Broad or Rankin in those conditions so you can't even justify picking him when the conditions are made for him. I can see why he's been taken but I firmly believe that he'd not be there if Rankin had played a few more matches and Bresnan was fit.
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If Bresnan was fit he would be 1st choice - he may be fit for the next test - down to tremlett to deliver., in truth I wouldn't have a problem with any of those 5 - all potent on their day.
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Obviously best case scenario is i'm eating my words at lunch when Tremlett has taken 7 for 20.
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Indeed, I see the Aussie tabloids are going after Broad on their front pages, subtlety isn't their thing.
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Indeed, I see the Aussie tabloids are going after Broad on their front pages, subtlety isn't their thing.
Sticks and stones pwa - broady will thrive on it !
Are you staying up all night?
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Not tonight sadly, I'll save that for the third day when we'll hopefully finish them off! Come on England get into these bloody Aussies.
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Not tonight sadly, I'll save that for the third day when we'll hopefully finish them off! Come on England get into these bloody Aussies.
I'm off till next weds but haven't slept today so will have it on tms low in bed and once wife goes to work watch it all on skyplus - thats the plan but it feels like Xmas eve now so may not sleep at all .
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It is pretty exciting, I just hope we hammer them.
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I'm staying up for a bit, the coverage starts at 11 but does anyone know what time the actual match starts ?
I'm a big Tremlet fan, think he could be awesome out there
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I'm staying up for a bit, the coverage starts at 11 but does anyone know what time the actual match starts ?
I'm a big Tremlet fan, think he could be awesome out there
I think it's midnight our time
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I'm staying up for a bit, the coverage starts at 11 but does anyone know what time the actual match starts ?
I'm a big Tremlet fan, think he could be awesome out there
I'm a massive Tremlett fan if he's at his best, but I'm also a big Finn fan. I think England should say to Finn 'we're going to play you in 10 consecutive Test matches, show us what you can do', that would make him.
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The worry with finn is he can be taken apart at times and very expensive - still a good bowler but work in progress.
These quick pitches will suit our fast bowlers just as much as theirs if not more so .
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Finn can go for runs but he takes wickets, if you bowl him as a strike bowler he'll come good. He needs to captain and coach to show faith in him, with confidence he'll be one of the best in the world.
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A bit of ITK(we'll see how accurate!) but a mate at work used to go to school with Tremlett and is still friends with him, he's starting tonight.
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I tend to agree about giving him a few test matches but not sure the ashes is the place for it - maybe next summer !
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A bit of ITK(we'll see how accurate!) but a mate at work used to go to school with Tremlett and is still friends with him, he's starting tonight.
I thought everyone knew that as soon as he was left out of the last game - worst kept secret in cricket :)
Bumble, aggers and co all said last week tremlett had been given the nod.
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Yeah true but now confirmed. Come on Chris roll back the years and bowl like you did last time in Aus.
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Lets have them at 71-5 at lunch :)
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Either that or we bat and we're 100-0 at lunch.
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Weather good in Brisbane this morning play should start on time, maybe the odd shower in the afternoon
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Its not ITK or very relevant but I have played cricket with Tremmers and he is absolutely massive. Hope we smash the convict muppets.
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Sounds like Faulkner is starting for Aussies, no spinner other than Smith.
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I reckon we'll be slow to start this series. If this test finishes I think we'll lose it handily. Then scrape the series.
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Sounds like Faulkner is starting for Aussies, no spinner other than Smith.
Lyon is nothing special- maybe a good decision to ditch him.
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Aussies to bat England to 3 in the first session.
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Mitchell Johnson is either hoping to take the Merv Hughes mantle or he's taking part in Movember. If he is doing Movember fair play to him.
His bowling is still shite though (winky smiley thing)
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Tremlett it is.
Aussies to bat first.
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evening gents, here we go then
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Cheeky I know, but does anyone know of any live streams? Shockingly, it's not on TV in America.
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Good first over by Jimmy
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Broady!!!!
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I reckon we'll be slow to start this series.
That quick enough for ya?
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So far so good.
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So far so good.
Agreed
They're going for their shots, chances will come.
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Nah, flat as a pancake this pitch, unless it starts cracking badly this will be a run-fest draw.
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Nah, flat as a pancake this pitch, unless it starts cracking badly this will be a run-fest draw.
Not with a run rate of 2.80 it wont.The Aussies don't like being tied down for long.
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You ripper Broad 70-2.
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Honours about even at lunch, although on this wicket England might just be the happier.
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Broad is a wanker....Clarke gone Broad 3 wickets.73-3.
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Got Him!
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Every time they sing Broad is a wanker he gets a wicket.83-4.
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Every time they sing Broad is a wanker he gets a wicket.83-4.
Keep singing it Oz
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Jimmy comes to the party 100 for 5
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Nah, flat as a pancake this pitch, unless it starts cracking badly this will be a run-fest draw.
Ha! What do I know?
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Nah, flat as a pancake this pitch, unless it starts cracking badly this will be a run-fest draw.
Ha! What do I know?
Nothing wrong with the pitch,good bowling and some shite batting.
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Termlett 132 for 6
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Get rid of Haddin pretty quick, we will be batting before i go to bed. Good bowling, cracking fielding . We havent dropped a hint. Great 1st day considering we lost the toss. Keep going England.
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good stand from the aussies but a beauty from Broad clearing out Johnson for his 5fer means we can still keep them down around 300 if we can clean up here. Less than 400 first up on this pitch is poor so this is a very good bowling performance so far.
Special praise for Broad who has well and truly rammed the aussie taunts down their throats.
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Disappointing to let them off the hook somewhat from 132-6 but still England's day - we need to wrap them up earl tomorrow for around 300 and then post a decent 450+ score .
The Aussies seem to often get a big partnership in the tail end with haddin playing well - really important we don't allow them to build another one - if I was a betting man I'd still go the draw but that will do us fine.
Well done broady - star man !
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10,000 empty seats, not only are you shit at sport, you can't sell out the first day of the Ashes.
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The Courier-Mail's Wikepedia page currently has the editor's name listed as Stuart Broad.
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10,000 empty seats, not only are you shit at sport, you can't sell out the first day of the Ashes.
can't sell out their cup final.......where have I heard that before.....:)
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Disappointing to let them off the hook somewhat from 132-6 but still England's day - we need to wrap them up earl tomorrow for around 300 and then post a decent 450+ score .
The Aussies seem to often get a big partnership in the tail end with haddin playing well - really important we don't allow them to build another one - if I was a betting man I'd still go the draw but that will do us fine.
Well done broady - star man !
Looking at the pitch we will have expected a couple of big stands, it really isn't a 273-8 on the first day pitch, they should be very upset with themselves and it's definitely our day. A good quick start tomorrow and we could be in control of the match by this time tomorrow.
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Well I got up just in time to see Broady bowl Johnson, great performance by Stuart. If you'd offered me 273-8 when the Aussies put themselves into bat I would have been delighted, pitch looks good for batting. Obviously a bit annoying they've recovered from 130-6 but If we can get them out for around 300 and then bat well we've got a great chance. Excellent day from England and sounds like Cook was pretty proactive.
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I watched the first hour and thought that it was a good toss to win, the pitch is flat and should probably be best for batting on day two/three and as said earlier, this time tomorrow we could be well in control.
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Hopefully we'll knock them over for just under 300 and that'd be a good psychologicial blow.
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Aussie can definitely still win if we bat poorly, but it's time our batting line up clicked and it's vital that we finish them off quick in the morning.
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Tremlett has also settled into a different role, he's playing as a containing bowler and he did a very good job. He's helping maintain the pressure.
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Tremlett has also settled into a different role, he's playing as a containing bowler and he did a very good job. He's helping maintain the pressure.
Agreed, he's doing the Bresnan job of occupying one end and building pressure at the other. I never expected him to be used that way but it's working well, and means his lower pace isn't such an issue. Broad is our strike bowler in bouncy conditions (as I said yesterday) but Jimmy and Tremlett have backed him up excellently today. Swann hasn't had a great day but there's no shame in that, there can't be many pitches worse for a spinner than day 1 at the Gabba.
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Just got back in from the Gabba. Pitch is flat as you saw once the ball went soft but we stuck to our plans and they managed to get themselves out due to some good bowling and poor shots.
There again tomorrow and Saturday so hoping to see England bat long. Weather is for chance of storms late in the day which is fairly standard fair for this part of the world at this time of year.
Still need to bat well though. If we do we can win this one inside 4 days. If we don't it's anybodys.
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I reckon we'll be slow to start this series.
Good call! D'oh.
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I see the Brisbane Courier is still refusing to name or put Broad's picture in their 'paper' referring to him as '27 year old medium pace bowler'. Well I'll ignore the hypocrisy of Australians getting upset with someone not walking, but all this childish, disrespectful stuff will just fire up Broady more. They're idiots.
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I just pray when I get up tomorrow morning that Australia aren't batting, because if they are it's all gone wrong.
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I just pray when I get up tomorrow morning that Australia aren't batting, because if they are it's all gone wrong.
Long as you get up after 1am you will be ok :)
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I see the Brisbane Courier is still refusing to name or put Broad's picture in their 'paper' referring to him as '27 year old medium pace bowler'. Well I'll ignore the hypocrisy of Australians getting upset with someone not walking, but all this childish, disrespectful stuff will just fire up Broady more. They're idiots.
What makes me laugh about this is that there were 2-3 aussies who clipped it and refused to walk in the same series, the whole thing was them clutching at straws trying to take a moral victory because they know they were totally outclassed by a largely underperforming England side.
If you look at pretty much any Ashes series you'l find both sides standing their ground from nicks, claiming 50/50 catches and LBWs, etc. It's all part of the game now, it sums up where they are currently that they won't let this one go 6months later.
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Clarke was caught last time we played in Australia with a huge deflection off the bat that cookie caught off kp- Clarke stood his ground and the DRS showed he got lots of bat on it - he was given out but we didn't make a huge fuss about him cheating.
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Australia underestimate this England side,
they think they only have to up it a notch and they will be on level footing,
which they wont as the England side are similar to the Aussies of a few years ago, in that they have been around a long time playing well and are experienced in winning test matches
Vaughan, Strauss and now Cook its a very strong line of leadership
over here in the summer our top order batsmen did not perform and we still won 3 nill, I cant see that happening again down under and expect them to get plenty of runs,
which will mean Australia will have to find something I don't think they have, they just think they have
of course I might be wrong and like a few others already have with their predictions might be eating a bit of humble pie come tomorow morning
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You started it.
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Without reading the whole thread, are there no highlights on terrestrial tv?
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Without reading the whole thread, are there no highlights on terrestrial tv?
Sky have announced that they will make highlights of this winter’s Ashes series available on free-to-air television for the first time.
The broadcaster's coverage this winter will include a free-to-air highlight's package on Pick
Action from the day will be available throughout the winter on the channel Pick, accessible on Sky channel 152, Freeview, Virgin Media and Freesat
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Australia underestimate this England side,
they think they only have to up it a notch and they will be on level footing,
which they wont as the England side are similar to the Aussies of a few years ago, in that they have been around a long time playing well and are experienced in winning test matches
Vaughan, Strauss and now Cook its a very strong line of leadership
over here in the summer our top order batsmen did not perform and we still won 3 nill, I cant see that happening again down under and expect them to get plenty of runs,
which will mean Australia will have to find something I don't think they have, they just think they have
of course I might be wrong and like a few others already have with their predictions might be eating a bit of humble pie come tomorow morning
In all honesty most Aussies dont underestimate this English side at all. General concensus is that they expect to lose this series and are well aware that England have the edge in every aspect of the game but you can hardly expect them to come out and say it publicly can you?
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The only advantage of this accursed broken arm is that I can enjoy Ashes cricket without any of the guilt of worrying about being shagged for work in the morning. Good start to the day's play, if we can wrap this up for 300/310 it'll be an excellent job by the boys.
Job done.
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295 all done
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Fair play to England 295 all out although i must wonder why Haddin tried a second run there to get run out by Carberry......nonsensical!!!
Come on England bat two days!!!
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You started it.
In fairness to Pup, he was one of the first Aussies to come out and say Broad hadn't done anything wrong.
400+ here needed now. Will be great to get, not just in the context of this game and this series, but based on the last 18 months. About time the batsmen (Bell apart) weighed in.
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Not a great way to get out when your on 94
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Fair play to England 295 all out although i must wonder why Haddin tried a second run there to get run out by Carberry......nonsensical!!!
You ever watched Nathan Lyon bat? :D
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Cook gone to Harris
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Cook's batting is turning into a major headache.
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That's a bit harsh, I know he got stuck in the crease but it was a good ball.
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Bad time to lose trott
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That's a bit harsh, I know he got stuck in the crease but it was a good ball.
He has been doing it for so long now,he has been.found out.
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K.Ps 100th test. You just know he will do something special. Carberry needs to carry on. He is going great guns.
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Carberry's judgement on the leave has been impeccable.
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K.Ps 100th test. You just know he will do something special. Carberry needs to carry on. He is going great guns.
I got that right. Not.
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What a fucking shambles - from 82-2 to 91-8 - absolutely awful!
How can we be struggling to avoid a follow on here - totally unacceptable - time for these batsmen to stop living on reputation and deliver!
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What a fucking shambles - from 82-2 to 91-8 - absolutely awful!
How can we be struggling to avoid a follow on here - totally unacceptable - time for these batsmen to stop living on reputation and deliver!
Shocking. Bogged down by low scoring rate again.
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39-6 from the afternoon session on a decent pitch - utterly ridiculous - as bumble and Botham just said , totally negative batting on a pitch that has done little - appalling batting .
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We fucked up last time in the first innings in Brisbane - i fear this time we won't save ourselves giving the Aussies a major impetus in this series - I feel sorry for our bowlers - this batting line up has lived too long on reputation , time to give them a real rollicking.
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Complete inability to play short pitched bowling and average spin.
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Complete inability to play short pitched bowling and average spin.
Time to get the rain mats out - Johnson has bowled well I agree but this is far from a bowlers wicket - we saw haddin and Johnson put on 114 yesterday , more than we are likely to score - now we need to avoid the follow on at least.
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110-9 - at least we avoided a follow on - only 5th time in test history England have lost 6 wickets for less than 10 runs - last time was 1990.
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Fair play to broad - the Aussies are targeting him he's been hit on the head body and fingers as they go for him with short pitched balls but he's stood up and took it - maybe some of our top order need to find their balls.
The Aussies now will be full of confidence and our backs against the wall- time to stand up and be counted.
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@MichaelVaughan: Last 5 away series England have been bowled out for under 200 in the 1st innings of the series..!!!!!!!??? #Ashes.
@MichaelVaughan: Out of the last 48 innings England have only past 400 Eight times!!!!!! And not once in the last 16..!!!! #Ashes.
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Right well Carberry and Broad come out with some credit, the rest were an absolute fucking disgrace. Once again our batting has absolutely killed us, it would take an absolute miracle of last Ashes tour's proportions to save this Test and that doesn't look likely. It's completely unacceptable to fail so often. Ever since Gooch became batting coach our ability to get big runs has vanished, absolutely fucking shocking. The batting unit should be embarrassed.
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Preperation needs to be looked into seriously now if thats 5 away series in a row begining with sub 200 efforts. Trott keeps getting out the same way......
Tests seem to be won through one persons individual brilliance in a match rather than an all round team effort. Needs to be looked into sharpish.
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There are wider issues with our batsmen. We collapse like dominoes far too easily. Time to look at the batting coach, is he doing his job?
You have to give credit to Mitchell Johnson for a hostile spell of fast bowling.
This series will now come down to bowling attack versus bowling attack and whichever creaking batting line up manages to come out on top. We struggled as a batting unit last summer and only Bell emerged with any credit. We need him or hopefully a couple of others to step up.
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And why does our run rate always seem to stagnate around 2 runs an over now. We have Cook, Pietersen, Bell, Prior, Broad all attacking players but we don't seem to have gotten out of a slow scoring rut that started during the New Zealand tour.
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There are wider issues with our batsmen. We collapse like dominoes far too easily. Time to look at the batting coach, is he doing his job?
You have to give credit to Mitchell Johnson for a hostile spell of fast bowling.
This series will now come down to bowling attack versus bowling attack and whichever creaking batting line up manages to come out on top. We struggled as a batting unit last summer and only Bell emerged with any credit. We need him or hopefully a couple of others to step up.
Is this 3/4 times in the last 6 tests that we've had the aussies struggling around 100 runs and then let them put together a stupidly large partnership down in the lower order?
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There are wider issues with our batsmen. We collapse like dominoes far too easily. Time to look at the batting coach, is he doing his job?
You have to give credit to Mitchell Johnson for a hostile spell of fast bowling.
This series will now come down to bowling attack versus bowling attack and whichever creaking batting line up manages to come out on top. We struggled as a batting unit last summer and only Bell emerged with any credit. We need him or hopefully a couple of others to step up.
Is this 3/4 times in the last 6 tests that we've had the aussies struggling around 100 runs and then let them put together a stupidly large partnership down in the lower order?
There are a few instances that's for sure.
I'm not too concerned with our attack; clearly we lack an ability to finish sides off like the Aussies did to us today. They scent blood and go for the throat. We can and do bowl sides out at will. The batsmen deserve the criticism not the bowlers.
The difference between the sides is no-one in our innings played a Haddin-type innings with support from elsewhere a la Johnson. Stick 150 runs on to our total and game on.
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went to bed at 32/1....what the fuck happened ?
looks like we will be batting for two days trying to draw a test we should be in control of.
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went to bed at 32/1....what the fuck happened ?
looks like we will be batting for two days trying to draw a test we should be in control of.
I've got no faith in the ability of our batsmen to stick around, build an innings and bat out for a draw.
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Trott is seriously on borrowed time now, he keeps making the same mistakes and also Root needs to start being producing. I was no great fan of his but Compton was dropped for less.
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Trott is seriously on borrowed time now, he keeps making the same mistakes and also Root needs to start being producing. I was no great fan of his but Compton was dropped for less.
Sadly it pains me as a bears fan but I agree, trott has been poor for too long , root looked promising but has gone backwards , cook has also been hit and miss in the last year and kp although a match winner has lacked consistency in the last year .
Bell has been the outstanding player but he can't always save our skin - too many players in this team are living on past reputation - they are good enough to come back and win the series but need to rediscover their form fast .
As for gooch - get rid!
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Our batsmen have failed to perform as a unit for 2 years now and there needs to be accountability. It's been covered up by one batsmen or two batsmen carrying the team and the bowlers knocking other teams over for very little. However this has got to stop, Gooch's record since he took over as full time batting coach is awful and like I said Trott in particular is running out of time.
There's a 90% chance that this Test is gone now, then in the third Test we play in Perth where our problems against pace will be highlighted again. We're in massive trouble.
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as a batting coach Gooch has probably passed his sell by date, what's Tendulkar and Lara up to these days ? ;)
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Watching wickets 3,4,5 and 6 fall was right up there with the worst car crash spell of sport I can remember.
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Fuck it - I'm knackered, tonight I'm going to go to bed - expect to wake up to see the Aussies around 500 ahead :(
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Fuck it - I'm knackered, tonight I'm going to go to bed - expect to wake up to see the Aussies around 500 ahead :(
same here Eastie, was going to not go to the pub tonight so I could actually grab more than a couple of hours play....but fuck it I may as well get down the pub..have a gut full and have a good nights kip....:(
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Fuck it - I'm knackered, tonight I'm going to go to bed - expect to wake up to see the Aussies around 500 ahead :(
Yep our bowlers are tired as well so we won't knock them over, they're going to put a massive score on and have two days to bowl us out.
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All this 'they scent blood and went for the throat' is bollocks. We batted poorly. Yes, Johnson bowled well but that's no excuse for 80 odd for 2 to beome 80 odd for 9. That's just rank bad batting. And something we've seen a lot of in England's first innings since the India hom eries about, what 2-3 years ago now? We bowled them out for a very under par score. We didn't get on the radar. Simply not good enough by the batsmen, again. We will bat batter in the 2 nd innings, as we usually have to, but mainly because we have become a one innings batting team, and hope our bowlers can sort it out.
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Batsmen in 2013, 1 averaging over 40.
Trott
1 100's
5 50's
39 ave
Cook
2 100's
3 50's
34 ave
Pietersen
1 100's
4 50's
35 ave
Bell
3 100's
3 50's
49 ave
Compton
2 100's
0 50's
30 ave
Root
2 100's
2 50's
33 ave
Prior
1 100's
2 50's
36 ave
Bairstow
0 100's
2 50's
29 ave
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Fuck it - I'm knackered, tonight I'm going to go to bed - expect to wake up to see the Aussies around 500 ahead :(
Yep our bowlers are tired as well so we won't knock them over, they're going to put a massive score on and have two days to bowl us out.
Rain is still a possible saviour too - don't think we will have the full 2 days to bat .
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Australia underestimate this England side,
they think they only have to up it a notch and they will be on level footing,
which they wont as the England side are similar to the Aussies of a few years ago, in that they have been around a long time playing well and are experienced in winning test matches
Vaughan, Strauss and now Cook its a very strong line of leadership
over here in the summer our top order batsmen did not perform and we still won 3 nill, I cant see that happening again down under and expect them to get plenty of runs,
which will mean Australia will have to find something I don't think they have, they just think they have
of course I might be wrong and like a few others already have with their predictions might be eating a bit of humble pie come tomorow morning
heres another bloke talking bollocks
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Yet again England start a series with bowlers having to get the batters out of the shit.Some if the shot selection last last terrible.
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Yes the averages are too low, but I don't think it's helped by the fact there isn't any suggestion that continued poor form will result in a player being dropped. Trott for example has been consistently poor and there isn't even a hint he's under pressure. We keep getting appalling first innings scores in first Tests and nothing is done to address it. It's a wider issue than just that too, 8 innings in 40 matches where we've scored over 400 is not good enough.
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Yes the averages are too low, but I don't think it's helped by the fact there isn't any suggestion that continued poor form will result in a player being dropped. Trott for example has been consistently poor and there isn't even a hint he's under pressure. We keep getting appalling first innings scores in first Tests and nothing is done to address it. It's a wider issue than just that too, 8 innings in 40 matches where we've scored over 400 is not good enough.
So negative - so slow scoring - look how the Aussies looked for runs whereas we just seemed to plod along - if they win at last this test then they will be rampant and stick to the short fast bowling - our batsmen need to show some balls and deliver .
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Yes the averages are too low, but I don't think it's helped by the fact there isn't any suggestion that continued poor form will result in a player being dropped. Trott for example has been consistently poor and there isn't even a hint he's under pressure. We keep getting appalling first innings scores in first Tests and nothing is done to address it. It's a wider issue than just that too, 8 innings in 40 matches where we've scored over 400 is not good enough.
This England side is harder to get out of than get into.
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I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, in that players need to feel secure in their places in order to perform. However there comes a point where that becomes detrimental and players become too comfortable. I think we're at that stage now, the players need to know that they have to perform or their place is under threat.
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I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, in that players need to feel secure in their places in order to perform. However there comes a point where that becomes detrimental and players become too comfortable. I think we're at that stage now, the players need to know that they have to perform or their place is under threat.
Balance has to come in and I'd throw Rankin at them as well, Tremlett has lost a yard of pace and is ineffective. They have no previous experience of Rankin and on a fast bouncy pitch in Perth he can do to them what Johnson did to us.
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I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, in that players need to feel secure in their places in order to perform. However there comes a point where that becomes detrimental and players become too comfortable. I think we're at that stage now, the players need to know that they have to perform or their place is under threat.
Balance has to come in and I'd throw Rankin at them as well, Tremlett has lost a yard of pace and is ineffective. They have no previous experience of Rankin and on a fast bouncy pitch in Perth he can do to them what Johnson did to us.
Bresnan will be fit for Perth - tremlett was fine 1st innings - it's the batsmen who are the problem not the bowling attack.
Balance would be a no for me in the heat of an ashes battle - these players should be given a rollicking and a chance to get us out of this mess next test - stand and deliver time.
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Problem is the bowling unit was fine, but if we're going to bat like that we're going to need to alter our bowling approach to blow Australia away. So we'll need Finn if we're going to do that.
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Without reading the whole thread, are there no highlights on terrestrial tv?
Sky have announced that they will make highlights of this winter’s Ashes series available on free-to-air television for the first time.
The broadcaster's coverage this winter will include a free-to-air highlight's package on Pick
Action from the day will be available throughout the winter on the channel Pick, accessible on Sky channel 152, Freeview, Virgin Media and Freesat
Thanks very much.
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I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, in that players need to feel secure in their places in order to perform. However there comes a point where that becomes detrimental and players become too comfortable. I think we're at that stage now, the players need to know that they have to perform or their place is under threat.
The key is that there need to be viable alternatives and I'm not sure there are many of those. I also withhold some criticism from Trott and KP because the problem starts before them, you're openers need to be regularly seeing off 30+ overs, the ball should be getting a bit bashed by the time Trott and KP get in but too often they're in with the first 10 overs against bowlers who have a wicket or 2 and are 'pumped'.
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Problem is the bowling unit was fine, but if we're going to bat like that we're going to need to alter our bowling approach to blow Australia away. So we'll need Finn if we're going to do that.
Quite simply we cannot afford to bat like that - it's the batting approach that needs to be addressed and some players need to be aware they are approaching the last chance saloon - last time we looked down and out but recovered to get a Draw here - there will be some rain so lets not write ourselves off yet .
Time for the famous graham Taylor approach at crew -
' you got yourselves into this mess now go and get yourselves out of it '
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I'll allow KP that excuse, but at number 3 there's got to be a degree of expectation that you've got a decent chance of facing the new ball. What's incredibly frustrating is that we struggled to deal with the short ball, and it's not like the Aussies didn't make clear that they would be bowling short balls. We should have been prepared for that.
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I'll allow KP that excuse, but at number 3 there's got to be a degree of expectation that you've got a decent chance of facing the new ball. What's incredibly frustrating is that we struggled to deal with the short ball, and it's not like the Aussies didn't make clear that they would be bowling short balls. We should have been prepared for that.
We were ridiculously negative and slow scoring - you need to attack bowlers and put them on the backfoot - staying at the crease not scoring invites pressure on ourselves and the loss of wickets will follow- we have some hugely attacking batsmen - why are they being stifled ?
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I'll allow KP that excuse, but at number 3 there's got to be a degree of expectation that you've got a decent chance of facing the new ball. What's incredibly frustrating is that we struggled to deal with the short ball, and it's not like the Aussies didn't make clear that they would be bowling short balls. We should have been prepared for that.
We were ridiculously negative and slow scoring - you need to attack bowlers and put them on the backfoot - staying at the crease not scoring invites pressure on ourselves and the loss of wickets will follow- we have some hugely attacking batsmen - why are they being stifled ?
Gooch. We are in a rut and definately finding it hard to get out of it, once you have the defensive mindset it's hard to change 180 degree's and start letting go. It's unacceptable that we start each tour poorly. However we are preparing it needs to be binned and go in a different direction.
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I agree something is clearly wrong in our batting make up at the moment. Gooch doesn't appear to be doing anything to address it.
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Well what happened today or last night is no surprise. Let's face bowlers won the home series and they may still rescue this series for us however the batting has been below par for about 3 years now. Too much reliance on Trott and Bell and not enough from others. Pietersen .....worlds fail me.
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Well what happened today or last night is no surprise. Let's face bowlers won the home series and they may still rescue this series for us however the batting has been below par for about 3 years now. Too much reliance on Trott and Bell and not enough from others. Pietersen .....worlds fail me.
You haven't been watching Trott much then because he's been the weak link for a while now, his form has been atrocious. Pietersen played well in India and got more runs than Trott in the summer.
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Well what happened today or last night is no surprise. Let's face bowlers won the home series and they may still rescue this series for us however the batting has been below par for about 3 years now. Too much reliance on Trott and Bell and not enough from others. Pietersen .....worlds fail me.
You haven't been watching Trott much then because he's been the weak link for a while now, his form has been atrocious. Pietersen played well in India and got more runs than Trott in the summer.
I agree that kp hasn't been consistent for a while but no question trott has been worse - he used to be an anchor we could rely on at one end but he has been tossing his wicket away poorly for a long time - needs reading the riot act , past reputations win nothing.
I would stick with trott but make him aware without doubt his place is at risk.
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The thing that surprises me, is that I'm still surprised at the batting line ups continual pathetic showings.
The point PaulWinch made about Trott is the key one for me. He's been nowhere near the level of a test batsman for probably the last 18 months, yet there is absolutely no pressure on his place in the side. That is indicative of the culture which has created an ugly malaise in the batting, where the majority are living on form 2-3 years ago.
Gooch can fuck off and all.
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Well what happened today or last night is no surprise. Let's face bowlers won the home series and they may still rescue this series for us however the batting has been below par for about 3 years now. Too much reliance on Trott and Bell and not enough from others. Pietersen .....worlds fail me.
You haven't been watching Trott much then because he's been the weak link for a while now, his form has been atrocious. Pietersen played well in India and got more runs than Trott in the summer.
Agreed and what I meant to say by using the word reliance was England have been consistently picking Trott. However he has not delivered and is or should be vulnerable now as an automatic pick.
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Just had a message from someone who is down there for the game - it is currently raining heavily in Brisbane.
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Just had a message from someone who is down there for the game - it is currently raining heavily in Brisbane.
They mentioned it might rain on TMS, apparently its a very quick drying ground
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Just had a message from someone who is down there for the game - it is currently raining heavily in Brisbane.
They mentioned it might rain on TMS, apparently its a very quick drying ground
They did say that when the rain and storms come they will be like nothing we would ever see in England - bring it on.
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Just had a message from someone who is down there for the game - it is currently raining heavily in Brisbane.
They mentioned it might rain on TMS, apparently its a very quick drying ground
Yes, Glenn McGrath said it would be in the top 3 of world stadia in terms of drainage and can recover from a deluge very quickly.
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Just had a message from someone who is down there for the game - it is currently raining heavily in Brisbane.
They mentioned it might rain on TMS, apparently its a very quick drying ground
Yes, Glenn McGrath said it would be in the top 3 of world stadia in terms of drainage and can recover from a deluge very quickly.
That's if the rain stops :)
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Rain forecast to stop around 8am with the chance of electrical storms throughout the day
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Rain forecast to stop around 8am with the chance of electrical storms throughout the day
Hopefully from 10-01 to 6pm :)
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Rain forecast to stop around 8am with the chance of electrical storms throughout the day
Rain has stopped already and its 6:41am.........
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Rain forecast to stop around 8am with the chance of electrical storms throughout the day
Rain has stopped already and its 6:41am.........
Party pooper :(
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Smug wankers :(
@MichaelVaughan: Local Headlines ..... http://t.co/EWhHIuwM74
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Smug wankers :(
@MichaelVaughan: Local Headlines ..... http://t.co/EWhHIuwM74
I still think this campaign of vilification of Broad is astonishingly hypocritical. Only Adam Gilchrist has the right to criticise anybody for not walking - I remember Steve Waugh absolutely refusing to walk despite a huge nick being caught straightforwardly at first slip, Are they going to ban mentions of him? It's infantile.
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Smug wankers :(
@MichaelVaughan: Local Headlines ..... http://t.co/EWhHIuwM74
I still think this campaign of vilification of Broad is astonishingly hypocritical. Only Adam Gilchrist has the right to criticise anybody for not walking - I remember Steve Waugh absolutely refusing to walk despite a huge nick being caught straightforwardly at first slip, Are they going to ban mentions of him? It's infantile.
See the video of Clarke a couple of pages ago - far worse!
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@MichaelVaughan: Plenty of cloud around today ... Surely the Rain dances back home haven't worked.....!!! http://t.co/XwiFn37aHO
@Aggerscricket: Cloudy start. Light showers around all day. Possible storm this afternoon… Hopefully not sane magnitude as yesterday’s… #6/9 #Ashes
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Where is everyone?
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Why declare? Is poor weather forecast?
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Could be some rain on day 4 but I find the way trott batted quite incredible - he could have been caught 3 times in 5 minutes before finally getting out to a ridiculous shot - he played as of it was a one day game and we needed 10 an over - I think they will stick with him but he is on borrowed time .
Chasing over 550 the last thing we needed was to be 10-2 - carberry was unlucky to see the ball bounce back onto his stumps but trott was extremely poor.
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@MichaelVaughan: As bad a innings that I have ever seen from a England No 3.... #Ashes
@Aggerscricket: Sorry Trotty. That's dreadful. 10/2
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Pathetic. Taxi for Trott. He's lost his head and is currently a sitting duck for that twat Johnson.
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Quite frankly, this has been an absolute shambles.
The mode of Trott's dismissal just summed it all up. We're in big trouble in this series now as they'll have massive momentum and support now.
Just what we didn't want to happen. I always thought a draw would be a great result before the Test but the manner of the way we've gone about things has really given thevAussies a huge lift.
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Rubbish..........I am a huge Trott fan but his head has gone, we are very short of options so he may well stay in the team for at least the next couple of Tests. The only option could be to move Bell up to 3 and bring Bairstow in at 6 and move Root to 5
What is Gooch doing and the rest of the 50+ backroom staff ?
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Trott should be dropped whatever happens. A game situation like this and he approaches his innings with a mindset that everything he was gonna hit was either a 4, 6 or out. I've seen some Trott innings that are as exciting as a stagnant swamp and he chooses today with a handfull of overs left to come out gungho billy big bollocks and try and smash Johnson out of the park.
Is his head in the right frame of mind or should he be taken out of the firing line. Time for the batting coach to earn his keep.
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Absolutely pathetic and this sort of performance will have a lasting effect on the series. Trott has to go for this display and his form of late. We desperately need to show fight tomorrow because if we're steamrollered the Ashes could be gone.
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I think I'd almost be inclined put Bell at three and bring Ballance in at 6 below Root. I don't know if it'd work but there needs to be a shake up. We don't look to have prepared for fast short bowling which I find insane
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Where to start with this utter shambles? Some chickens are coming home to roost big style, exposing the fact that we have been really poor since winning in India. Should have lost in NZ, were poor against them at home and only beat Australia by default really, because they are that bad.
The batting is one thing, but one of the big problems is that our two main strike bowlers, 5Live's Jimmy and Swanny, don't look threatening at all. Is age catching up with Jimmy or is it his workload given that we were over reliant on him in the past? Since Trent Bridge he hasn't looked dangerous at all. Swann is being out-bowled by Lyon and is looking like a part-time spinner at the moment.
And the batting ... these types of collapses were one thing 20 years ago, but this Aussie team isn't even any good.
And I think Moikel Klaaaak has got the Broad short-ball monkey off his back after that 2nd innings century, and my bet is he'll absolutely pile on the runs for the rest of the series.
To those saying we start poorly and this team has bounce-backability: we are about to go 2-0 down, not 1-0 because Perth is a gimme for Aus. That means we have to win 2 out of Adelaide, MCG and Sydney and not lose the other one. Adelaide looks like being a slowish flat track, at best we'll get a draw if the pitch nullifies their quicks, but the way we're batting against Lyon I wouldn't bet against him being a match winner there.
Fuck, I hate Australia. We should have ground the Australian cricket team into the dust and burnt the corpse when we had the chance. Now it looks like monster is resurrecting its self belief if not itself.
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I think I'd almost be inclined put Bell at three and bring Ballance in at 6 below Root. I don't know if it'd work but there needs to be a shake up. We don't look to have prepared for fast short bowling which I find insane
You'd think they'd have a bowling machine that goes up to 95mph. And indoor nets are usually really fast and bouncy (even I managed to bowl chin music at the Lord's indoor nets). So WTF have they been doing?
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I think I'd almost be inclined put Bell at three and bring Ballance in at 6 below Root. I don't know if it'd work but there needs to be a shake up. We don't look to have prepared for fast short bowling which I find insane
You'd think they'd have a bowling machine that goes up to 95mph. And indoor nets are usually really fast and bouncy (even I managed to bowl chin music at the Lord's indoor nets). So WTF have they been doing?
What they do every series, come in undercooked. For most of these players test match cricket is the only first class cricket they play, having a couple of innings at the very most before each series in different conditions than they are used to is not enough for me.
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Also is there anything more obnoxious than a confident Aussie. They've lost 4 in a row against us and are talking like we're whipping boys. If this sort of shit doesn't motivate a couple of them to go out second innings and sell there wicket dearly nothing will.
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Funny when you look back at some posts on day one. These series swing to and fro and all is not lost today. Since Cook has been captain we have lost the ability to finish off the tail. Australia have not scored boat loads of runs to beat us, we have batted very poorly.
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Why declare? Is poor weather forecast?
Can't believe you ave asked that question. This is good positive cricket from Aussies. They have a lead of well over 500 and even the great West Indies team would have not got that in the fourth innings ( mind you great teams don't have to do that) Once you are in a no lose position every over that you bat gives the opposition slightly better chance of survival. So correct and very good decision by Clarke.
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I think I'd almost be inclined put Bell at three and bring Ballance in at 6 below Root. I don't know if it'd work but there needs to be a shake up. We don't look to have prepared for fast short bowling which I find insane
You'd think they'd have a bowling machine that goes up to 95mph. And indoor nets are usually really fast and bouncy (even I managed to bowl chin music at the Lord's indoor nets). So WTF have they been doing?
What they do every series, come in undercooked. For most of these players test match cricket is the only first class cricket they play, having a couple of innings at the very most before each series in different conditions than they are used to is not enough for me.
It's a difficult balance. They play so much international cricket these days that you have to give them some down time otherwise they go stale. The flip side is not enough preparation and this sort of start as a consequence.
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If a change is made I would move root up to 3 and Bairstow in at 6 but I think trott will get a chance to make amends
Swann has looked poor too and there are several concerns but I wouldn't write off england off just yet - a wounded lion can be dangerous.
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4 Comments
Jonathan Trott has to admit he has a problem against left-arm quick bowlers after his second innings at the Gabba which was among the worst I have seen from an England No 3.
He does not need to confess to the media but he should go to the coaching staff and tell them he has an issue against that kind of bowling. You do not play shots like the ones he did on Saturday without something being seriously wrong in your mind.
Before we played Australia in 2005 I remember Marcus Trescothick openly admitted in the dressing room at Headingley that he had a problem playing Glenn McGrath. Two or three of the lads sniggered but everyone else said we will help you out.
All of a sudden everyone was behind him giving him advice. Two days later he went out and smashed a hundred in a one-day game.
This year Trott averages 21 against left-arm seam. Neil Wagner and Trent Boult also caused him also sorts of problems when England played New Zealand and he has been out 11 times to left-arm seam in total this year.
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He has an issue. Technically he has a fault but it is also a mental battle. He has a problem against pace and you know what they say when you have a problem, you can’t solve it until you admit to it.
Technically speaking, his eyes are getting too far away from the ball and his momentum is taking him so far over to the off side that he cannot pull out of the shot. If he stays still and more on the leg stump with his head position then those short balls on his ribs actually become nice balls to play. You just flick them off or, if you can’t do that, at this level you have to wear a chest pad and let it hit you.
For the first time in his career Trott is facing a question mark about how he is going to cope with a crisis. Ian Bell, Alastair Cook and Kevin Pietersen have gone through that sort of period in the past and emerged stronger. Trott can do the same but he has hard work ahead of him because his problem is against pace and that kind of issue is so hard to resolve.
On quick pitches against good pace attacks he struggles: South Africa in Johannesburg in 2009 (he scored 5 and 8), Australia at Old Trafford last summer (5 & 11), at Perth 2010-11 (4 & 31) and here in Brisbane this week.
The one bit of advice I would give him is I think he gets closed off with his left shoulder against a left arm over the wicket bowler such as Mitchell Johnson.
I think he has a blind spot in his left eye because of that. It would help if he opened up his stance and moved as far back in the crease as possible, which is an option for Trott because he has an initial movement forward.
I don’t see why he would want to get closer to the ball when it is coming down at 91 mph. Go as far back on the stumps as possible, stay more on the leg side and open up that shoulder to get the right eye looking at the ball from the left-arm over bowler. I am pretty sure he is right eye dominant.
It all sounds very complicated but I think it would help his game. He might see the ball earlier, it would stop him jumping around the crease. In the first innings at the Gabba he was trying to manoeuvre the ball into the leg side by moving himself so far over to the off side that he lost sight of the ball.
He was successful in Australia three winters ago averaging 89 in the series. But if you look at the attack in that series, Australia were weak. They had Ben Hilfenhaus who was medium pace, Doug Bollinger also medium pace, Peter Siddle was not as good as he is now, and Johnson was all over the place because he was expected to be aggressive while also keeping it tight.
With this attack it is different. Ryan Harris is attritional but also pacy, Siddle is bowling quickly and you know he will be accurate too, and they have a spin option in Nathan Lyon as well as Shane Watson when he is fit.
They have four bowlers who can hold an end allowing Clarke to throw the ball to Johnson and let him loose in three over bursts.
If Johnson is not finding his range Clarke can take him off and bring on one of the more dependable guys. They tried him on a few occasions in the England first innings and he did not get it right so took him out of the attack. But it did not matter.
They brought him back and he caused chaos from the Vulture Street End. I think this will be the tactic for the series. Clarke will give Johnson an opportunity for two or three overs at a time and maximising him when it clicks and he finds rhythm. It is a wonderful option to have as a captain.
Stuart Broad this week has given an exhibition of how to cope under a huge amount of pressure. It is not just his ability to deliver his performance but also displaying fight and energy in the most hostile of circumstances.
Nothing can prepare you for 40,000 people singing “Broad is a w*****” when you first get the ball in your hand on day one of an Ashes series.
I have never heard an England cricketer get that kind of response from a crowd. His first ball was a no ball hit for four and his opening over was poor. He could have gone into his shell straightaway but he thrived and won the crowd over.
Succeeding in such circumstances comes from inner strength, confidence, fight and huge amount of belief in your own ability.
His bowling was excellent but what stood out for me was his batting. He came out to face a hat-trick ball with England 87 for six and the Gabba rocking. It was a brutal environment for a player already a target of abuse.
But he fought it and that was the moment I realised Broad is an outstanding cricketer.
In this Test match he has proven to me he is going to go on and be one of the greats of English cricket.
His bowling was clever because he learned he had to bowl a bit fuller and use his short ball as the surprise ball.
He is at his best when he realises his stock ball is the full ball. He has this amazing ability to bowl a sharp, straight delivery. He is rarely off the money. He is a little like Glenn McGrath in his pomp. You knew as a batsman when McGrath was bowling that it was going to be aimed at your left ear or left arm where you would sometimes lose sight of it.
Broad looks in complete control of his bowling and his action. Unfortunately he has been around a few players this week who have been poor.
@MichaelVaughan: Early thoughts on Trott.... @TelegraphSport http://t.co/1AY2F1MaGp
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Wouldn't a link have been easier?
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I think I'd almost be inclined put Bell at three and bring Ballance in at 6 below Root. I don't know if it'd work but there needs to be a shake up. We don't look to have prepared for fast short bowling which I find insane
You'd think they'd have a bowling machine that goes up to 95mph. And indoor nets are usually really fast and bouncy (even I managed to bowl chin music at the Lord's indoor nets). So WTF have they been doing?
What they do every series, come in undercooked. For most of these players test match cricket is the only first class cricket they play, having a couple of innings at the very most before each series in different conditions than they are used to is not enough for me.
It's a difficult balance. They play so much international cricket these days that you have to give them some down time otherwise they go stale. The flip side is not enough preparation and this sort of start as a consequence.
I think I'd almost be inclined put Bell at three and bring Ballance in at 6 below Root. I don't know if it'd work but there needs to be a shake up. We don't look to have prepared for fast short bowling which I find insane
You'd think they'd have a bowling machine that goes up to 95mph. And indoor nets are usually really fast and bouncy (even I managed to bowl chin music at the Lord's indoor nets). So WTF have they been doing?
What they do every series, come in undercooked. For most of these players test match cricket is the only first class cricket they play, having a couple of innings at the very most before each series in different conditions than they are used to is not enough for me.
It's a difficult balance. They play so much international cricket these days that you have to give them some down time otherwise they go stale. The flip side is not enough preparation and this sort of start as a consequence.
I agree and seeing as we've not started a series well away for nearly 4 years now we haven't got the balance right.
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Wouldn't a link have been easier?
Possibly but sometimes links are awkward for people using mobiles .
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I think I'd almost be inclined put Bell at three and bring Ballance in at 6 below Root. I don't know if it'd work but there needs to be a shake up. We don't look to have prepared for fast short bowling which I find insane
You'd think they'd have a bowling machine that goes up to 95mph. And indoor nets are usually really fast and bouncy (even I managed to bowl chin music at the Lord's indoor nets). So WTF have they been doing?
What they do every series, come in undercooked. For most of these players test match cricket is the only first class cricket they play, having a couple of innings at the very most before each series in different conditions than they are used to is not enough for me.
It's a difficult balance. They play so much international cricket these days that you have to give them some down time otherwise they go stale. The flip side is not enough preparation and this sort of start as a consequence.
I don't think lack of preparation can be blamed in this instance, its barely 2 months since the last Ashes series, and all the batsmen got runs in the warm ups.
For all the talk of fast bouncy pitches, you'd think they were trying to bat on a greased up bouncy castle. In reality the pitch has only a little more pace than those in the summer.
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Why declare? Is poor weather forecast?
Because the knew it was an inevitability that England would throw away at least a couple of wickets before the close of play
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Why declare? Is poor weather forecast?
Can't believe you ave asked that question. This is good positive cricket from Aussies. They have a lead of well over 500 and even the great West Indies team would have not got that in the fourth innings ( mind you great teams don't have to do that) Once you are in a no lose position every over that you bat gives the opposition slightly better chance of survival. So correct and very good decision by Clarke.
Written at 10am? He got lucky with One wicket and the other was a gift. Clarke has made some odd declarations before. The weather does appear to be a factor. To be fair I was watching on Skygo with no sound and was asking a question that was probably being discussed by commentators.
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Why declare? Is poor weather forecast?
Can't believe you ave asked that question. This is good positive cricket from Aussies. They have a lead of well over 500 and even the great West Indies team would have not got that in the fourth innings ( mind you great teams don't have to do that) Once you are in a no lose position every over that you bat gives the opposition slightly better chance of survival. So correct and very good decision by Clarke.
Written at 10am? He got lucky with One wicket and the other was a gift. Clarke has made some odd declarations before. The weather does appear to be a factor. To be fair I was watching on Skygo with no sound and was asking a question that was probably being discussed by commentators.
I doubt anyone in the game would question it, it was the correct decision at exactly the right time. No batsman wants to have to face a handful of overs at the end of the day, after a day of running round in the heat and seeing any chance of the game slip away getting yourself mentally right to bat a handful of overs isn't easy so as the bowling side you've always got a chance to sneak something, whether it's a bit of luck like Carberry, or a batsman playing like a village player (Trott).
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Australia underestimate this England side,
they think they only have to up it a notch and they will be on level footing,
which they wont as the England side are similar to the Aussies of a few years ago, in that they have been around a long time playing well and are experienced in winning test matches
Vaughan, Strauss and now Cook its a very strong line of leadership
over here in the summer our top order batsmen did not perform and we still won 3 nill, I cant see that happening again down under and expect them to get plenty of runs,
which will mean Australia will have to find something I don't think they have, they just think they have
of course I might be wrong and like a few others already have with their predictions might be eating a bit of humble pie come tomorow morning
Mmm.
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Weather update...........Its dry currently
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Weather update...........Its dry currently
I don't mind as long as the storms arrive in 2 hours time and last 7 hours :)
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Not a cloud in the sky. We did have an overnight storm and there may come in just before the close but that's the same most days here.
You can feel that the country collectively smells blood in the water so they'll really get behind them now. The Aussie way is to go missing when they rant doing well and be all over it when they are.
Unless we can restore some pride with a fighback today were going to get slautered with their gloating. Couldn't have made a bigger mess of this quite frankly.
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Not a cloud in the sky. We did have an overnight storm and there may come in just before the close but that's the same most days here.
You can feel that the country collectively smells blood in the water so they'll really get behind them now. The Aussie way is to go missing when they rant doing well and be all over it when they are.
Unless we can restore some pride with a fighback today were going to get slautered with their gloating. Couldn't have made a bigger mess of this quite frankly.
I feel for you mate.............I reckon we will untill just after tea today
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Shit again.
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Well we need to be measured in our criticisms as we can be a good team and these Aussies are not world beaters.
However, we play like this again and we'll lose and keep on losing. We have not only lacked the technical ability against Johnson, one of the quickest bowlers going around and on a pace friendly track (so no disgrace there), but it's the way we've gone down that is most disturbing. Some of the shot selections really have been appalling, Trott, Pietersen, Root, Bell, Prior in the first innings all got out tamely, while Trott again, Pietersen again, Prior again and to a degree Cook all gave it away cheaply. The tail I can understand but even they have to be better than what they're giving us now (especially Swann who when the going gets tough has a consistent habit of looking like he really doesn't want to know).
I'm fine with our bowling unit, we'll put them under pressure and Brisbane is not a happy hunting ground for Swann so i'm backing him to bounce back. Our batting is a major, major concern with Trott and Prior in particular.
As it's England, I really don't expect to see to many changes, other than Bresnan if he's fit but both Trott and Prior are now playing for there International futures post this tour imo.
Because that, and I don't care how hostile the opposition bowl, was simply not good enough.
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So the Aussies surround our last batsman and the 2 umpires have to intervene and call in Michael Clarke only for the stump mic to pick up his 'get ready for a broken fucking arm'- vile scum !
There is a way to win - these tossers have no class or morals - lets pulverise them from here on and rub their dirty Aussie noses in the dirt - we know what they are!
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Clarke's behaviour here as captain in the last few overs has been despicable - why are the umpires allowing this piece of Aussie shit to get away with it?
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Because their careers depend on them winning this series. We have been out played out fought out everything and we'd better take a teaspoon of cement and harden up or this will get nasty.
We look underdone and under prepared AGAIN.
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Well that was an absolute disgrace from day two onwards. I can scarcely remember a worse England display. There has to be a change to the batting line up if only to demonstrate this isn't acceptable. On a side note the Australian behaviour lead by their captain was an utter disgrace and if England need any motivation to turn this around that's it.
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Because their careers depend on them winning this series. We have been out played out fought out everything and we'd better take a teaspoon of cement and harden up or this will get nasty.
We look underdone and under prepared AGAIN.
This.
I don't think we were prepared mentally for this barrage, maybe some of the players after winning 3-0 in the summer without playing well have become lax. They are at home and have lost 3 in a row, they've picked an agressive side and are going to throw everything at us, verbally aswell. The players temperments are going to be as tested as their techniques and if a few of the batsmens dont toughen up they will be knocked over.
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So the Aussies surround our last batsman and the 2 umpires have to intervene and call in Michael Clarke only for the stump mic to pick up his 'get ready for a broken fucking nose ' - vile scum !
There is a way to win - these tossers have no class or morals - lets pulverise them from here on and rub their dirty Aussie noses in the dirt - we know what they are!
Clarke showing his class at the end, bet he supports Chelsea...
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Well that was an absolute disgrace from day two onwards. I can scarcely remember a worse England display. There has to be a change to the batting line up if only to demonstrate this isn't acceptable. On a side note the Australian behaviour lead by their captain was an utter disgrace and if England need any motivation to turn this around that's it.
The batsmen have got to make a statement next innings. No more scoring at 2 an over either. They have to face fire with fire not retreat into their shells.
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Yeah we need to come back at them hard and hit them very hard. Our players should be embarrassed that they've performed at that level, but the level of Aussie disrespect has gone to new levels.
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The biggest concerns are Trott and Prior who can't hold a bat the moment.
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I cannot underestimate the level of aggression towards the England team here right now. They don't like us and they think they got on the wrong end of pretty much everything last series so the hostility, led by Lehmann and aided and abetted by the media is like ive not seen in nearly 10 years. The country has bought into this and that's why Warner is saying what he did in the press conference.
Partly because they think we're weak and partly to send a message to the crowds. The stick England and Broad got I particular in the ground on days 1 and 2 had to be seen to be appreciated.
Say what you like about Clarke, he needs to win this series so a few choice words in the middle are just the starters. He praised the crowd afterwards and appealed for continued support - this ain't gonna let up until we shut them up.
It's all about how England responds now. I just pray the Aussie perception of us isn't a correct one.
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Cook's post match interview was measured but made clear he was pretty unimpressed by their behaviour.
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Yeah we need to come back at them hard and hit them very hard. Our players should be embarrassed that they've performed at that level, but the level of Aussie disrespect has gone to new levels.
I agree, I think maybe this is the short sharp shock we needed - Adelaide will be different , I think we will see England come back all guns blazing.
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Swannies fucking diary should take a rest for a while after that too.
He needs to front up at Adelaide.
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@Swannyg66: We were completely outplayed this week but rest assured will be back. Thanks to you true fans for your support. Fair weathers can do one.
@KP24: Hey - if we all accept the good days in life, we all have to accept the bad ones! Horrible Test for us that.. 4 to play! 😊
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I'm not fair weather Greame and I thought we were abysmal and you in particular showed very little ticker for it.
I've been home and away in good times and bad as have many other thousands of England supporters, easily the best in the sport. Careful what you Tweet and don't do a Rooney on us.
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Yeah careful Swann because supporters can still support and criticise. This England team need to front up.
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Can't they stay off their fucking phones for a while and digest their performance.
All the batsmen should be playing in the warm up game, they haven't spent any time in the middle here anyway.
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That was a thrashing whichever way you look at it. I'm pessimistic about the rest of the series now. Prove me wrong please lads.
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No excuses anymore for not being prepared when we go into series. It happens EVERY time.
Management should also be taking a long look at themselves just like the batsmen should.
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Alastair Cook is prepared to accept "war" on the field during the Ashes series, but accused David Warner of crossing the line in questioning Jonathan Trott's stomach for the fight in an acrimonious end to the first Test in Brisbane.
Cook refused the opportunity to criticise his opposite number Michael Clarke for his part in an angry exchange with Jimmy Anderson in which the Australia captain could be heard through Channel Nine's stump microphone appearing to tell England's No11 to "get ready for a fucking broken arm".
"On the pitch it's pretty much a war, isn't it?" said the England captain, agreeing that arranging back-to-back Ashes series was asking for trouble in that regard. "There are always going to be a few words, and I think that's pretty much how people want to watch cricket being played."
However when asked about Warner's description of Trott's second-innings dismissal by Mitchell Johnson as "pretty poor and pretty weak", Cook said: "I think the comment by David Warner was pretty disrespectful to any professional cricketer really."
There have been suggestions that Warner could be punished under the International Cricket Council's code of conduct, but that would seem unlikely, and Australia are clearly determined to keep up the attack.
Even before their vice-captain Brad Haddin had left the field, he told the former Test opener turned television commentator Michael Slater that Johnson had "seen in their eyes they weren't confident facing him".
When Johnson was asked afterwards whether he had seen fear in Trott's eyes, there was confirmation that England's No3 has now become a target in Australia. "Do you want me to answer that?" Clarke said as Johnson hesitated. When the man of the match finally answered, he said: "I dunno. There were a couple of nice ones that were zinging past his nose where there might have been a little bit of fear there."
Asked again whether he had seen fear in Trott's eyes, Johnson smiled and said nothing. "Good answer, Mitchy, good boy," added Clarke, to general hilarity. For Trott, this is deadly serious.
Cook had admitted: "He's had a tough game, he knows that. But you have to remember the guy is class. He's had a little blip in these last couple of games but he's a class player and class players bounce back. I know he's been working incredibly hard at it and anyone who has seen the net sessions can see he is trying to work on it.
"It is just a matter of him trying to take that into the middle. When the emotion and the pressure of the game is on, it can be quite tough to think as clearly as you need to."
Cook insisted England's problems – against Johnson and more generally –are collective rather than specific to Trott. "We've got to look at the way we're going to play him," he added. "He's bowled well in this Test match, I remember last time he bowled well in Perth and he hurt us there and there's been times in the past when we've played really well against him.
"We can draw on that and we are going to have to be very honest with ourselves in how we go about trying to play him. You can't brush the issue under the carpet, he's hurt us in this game and we're going to have to come back show our ability in the next game.
"This 10 days' break [before the second Test in Adelaide] will be good for us. It'll give us time to get away from it and really work on what we need to do to improve. We all need to be honest with each other as a group. It's not just those three who haven't had a good game – all 11 of us really need to improve if we want to win this series."
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Its all well and good Cook criticising Warners comments.
The big problem is though that Warner is spot on the money. A lot of our batsmen did look like they didn't have the will for the fight.
Oh and Swann can fuck off. To call any section of English cricket fans fair weather is patently ridiculous after the support England have had for the last couple of decades despite being woeful for large periods of it.
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Yeah we need to come back at them hard and hit them very hard. Our players should be embarrassed that they've performed at that level, but the level of Aussie disrespect has gone to new levels.
With what though? Our trio of low 80mph bowlers?
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So the Aussies surround our last batsman and the 2 umpires have to intervene and call in Michael Clarke only for the stump mic to pick up his 'get ready for a broken fucking nose ' - vile scum !
There is a way to win - these tossers have no class or morals - lets pulverise them from here on and rub their dirty Aussie noses in the dirt - we know what they are!
Clarke showing his class at the end, bet he supports Chelsea...
Ah right, end of discussion, if only one had known that at the outset. I never need to know anything more about anyone once I know they support Chelsea.
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I'd rather loose the series 5-0 than resort to the sort of childish and pathetic behaviour of both the Australian team and their gutter press.
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Its all well and good Cook criticising Warners comments.
The big problem is though that Warner is spot on the money. A lot of our batsmen did look like they didn't have the will for the fight.
Oh and Swann can fuck off. To call any section of English cricket fans fair weather is patently ridiculous after the support England have had for the last couple of decades despite being woeful for large periods of it.
They'll be (rightly) hurting after this and he would probably think differently once he's calmed down. Really, the players should be banned from using Social Media during any test series because it can lead to emotional responses which can do harm.
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Whilst the Aussie antics are obviously pathetic, we've got to be able to not let it affect us quite so easily.
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Yeah we need to come back at them hard and hit them very hard. Our players should be embarrassed that they've performed at that level, but the level of Aussie disrespect has gone to new levels.
With what though? Our trio of low 80mph bowlers?
Batsmen doing what they're meant to be doing. Let's not forget by and large our bowlers have had them in trouble in most tests during the last year. 1 we have to finish them off when they're rocking and 2 when we are batting not score so slowly that the pressure builds up and up.
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I'd rather loose the series 5-0 than resort to the sort of childish and pathetic behaviour of both the Australian team and their gutter press.
It's that sort of pathetic behaviour that makes me realise how much it must have hurt them to be under our thumb the last 3 series. Lowering yourself to that level in the name of gamesmanship isn't worth it.
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I watched the first few minutes of play last night and Warne was on commentary. His comments were quite interesting when the subject of the media arose. He said that Australia has the worst written press in the world and then echoed what we've all pretty much said or thought - how immature and petulant their behaviour has been.
Warne's one Australian that I have time for. He usually gives quite a balanced account and even when he's been critical (e.g. of Cook's conservative approach and tactics), I've thought he's had a point.
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I'd rather loose the series 5-0 than resort to the sort of childish and pathetic behaviour of both the Australian team and their gutter press.
Our tabloids, of course, never having behaved with less than class and good manners.
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Yeah we need to come back at them hard and hit them very hard. Our players should be embarrassed that they've performed at that level, but the level of Aussie disrespect has gone to new levels.
With what though? Our trio of low 80mph bowlers?
Pace isn't the be all and end all of bowling though, If Broad and Anderson can hit the right spots they don't need to bowl at 90mph+ to unsettle batsmen. A good 85mph ball is better than a misdirected 95mph ball, our own batsmen need to get their heads back on and realise that Mitchell is a fast but extremely average bowler. Trott doesn't average 50 in Tests because he can't play short pitched bowling and he needs to remember that.
We have started most recent series badly recently and won most of them, no panic just yet.
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Yeah we need to come back at them hard and hit them very hard. Our players should be embarrassed that they've performed at that level, but the level of Aussie disrespect has gone to new levels.
With what though? Our trio of low 80mph bowlers?
Pace isn't the be all and end all of bowling though, If Broad and Anderson can hit the right spots they don't need to bowl at 90mph+ to unsettle batsmen. A good 85mph ball is better than a misdirected 95mph ball, our own batsmen need to get their heads back on and realise that Mitchell is a fast but extremely average bowler. Trott doesn't average 50 in Tests because he can't play short pitched bowling and he needs to remember that.
We have started most recent series badly recently and won most of them, no panic just yet.
We will see mate but we havnt been this badly beaten before, had so many players out of form for such a long time i.e Prior, Trott, Tremlett, Finn and its the 1st time we have been behind in an ashes series for 7 years
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Yeah we need to come back at them hard and hit them very hard. Our players should be embarrassed that they've performed at that level, but the level of Aussie disrespect has gone to new levels.
With what though? Our trio of low 80mph bowlers?
Pace isn't the be all and end all of bowling though, If Broad and Anderson can hit the right spots they don't need to bowl at 90mph+ to unsettle batsmen. A good 85mph ball is better than a misdirected 95mph ball, our own batsmen need to get their heads back on and realise that Mitchell is a fast but extremely average bowler. Trott doesn't average 50 in Tests because he can't play short pitched bowling and he needs to remember that.
We have started most recent series badly recently and won most of them, no panic just yet.
We will see mate but we havnt been this badly beaten before, had so many players out of form for such a long time i.e Prior, Trott, Tremlett, Finn and its the 1st time we have been behind in an ashes series for 7 years
We got hammered in Perth last time out by 267 runs and then took the Aussies apart in the next 2 tests winning both by an innings.
Wounded lions are dangerous animals :)
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I'd rather loose the series 5-0 than resort to the sort of childish and pathetic behaviour of both the Australian team and their gutter press.
Our tabloids, of course, never having behaved with less than class and good manners.
They are doing what Border did in the 80's when he took over as captain after a string of ashes loses
He stopped any friendly fraternisation between the two sides, got aggressive got abusive and won the ashes back
Australia will do whatever it takes to get them back, they hate constantly losing to us all the time,
I don't blame them to be honest
We have to stand up to the challenge, man up a bit and realise its not going to be a cakewalk like times before, not saying we have to stoop to a low level, but a bit of fighting fire with fire won't do us any harm
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Has been bad blood between Anderson and Clarke since 2006 when Anderson whacked him with a pad as a joke on his head in the dressing rom and Clarke reacted angrily-they have hardly spoken since and both commented on each other in their books - today as a captain Clarke overstepped the mark-aggressive , threatening behaviour - lets hope he gets a few bouncers next time out.
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So the Aussies surround our last batsman and the 2 umpires have to intervene and call in Michael Clarke only for the stump mic to pick up his 'get ready for a broken fucking arm'- vile scum !
There is a way to win - these tossers have no class or morals - lets pulverise them from here on and rub their dirty Aussie noses in the dirt - we know what they are!
That's some mightily impressive moral outrage there, be careful you don't have a stroke. Have the nasty Aussie's upset you :)
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So the Aussies surround our last batsman and the 2 umpires have to intervene and call in Michael Clarke only for the stump mic to pick up his 'get ready for a broken fucking arm'- vile scum !
There is a way to win - these tossers have no class or morals - lets pulverise them from here on and rub their dirty Aussie noses in the dirt - we know what they are!
That's some mightily impressive moral outrage there, be careful you don't have a stroke. Have the nasty Aussie's upset you :)
No wombat, there is a way to win with class - your boys lack it but that's understandable - great motivation for us to rub your noses in it and put the Aussies back in their box though ;)
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Yeah we need to come back at them hard and hit them very hard. Our players should be embarrassed that they've performed at that level, but the level of Aussie disrespect has gone to new levels.
With what though? Our trio of low 80mph bowlers?
Pace isn't the be all and end all of bowling though, If Broad and Anderson can hit the right spots they don't need to bowl at 90mph+ to unsettle batsmen. A good 85mph ball is better than a misdirected 95mph ball, our own batsmen need to get their heads back on and realise that Mitchell is a fast but extremely average bowler. Trott doesn't average 50 in Tests because he can't play short pitched bowling and he needs to remember that.
We have started most recent series badly recently and won most of them, no panic just yet.
We will see mate but we havnt been this badly beaten before, had so many players out of form for such a long time i.e Prior, Trott, Tremlett, Finn and its the 1st time we have been behind in an ashes series for 7 years
Form is temporary and all that. I fully expect us to come back strongly, as we did in India.
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So the Aussies surround our last batsman and the 2 umpires have to intervene and call in Michael Clarke only for the stump mic to pick up his 'get ready for a broken fucking arm'- vile scum !
There is a way to win - these tossers have no class or morals - lets pulverise them from here on and rub their dirty Aussie noses in the dirt - we know what they are!
That's some mightily impressive moral outrage there, be careful you don't have a stroke. Have the nasty Aussie's upset you :)
No wombat, there is a way to win with class - your boys lack it but that's understandable - great motivation for us to rub your noses in it and put the Aussies back in their box though ;)
Come on Eastie, that's sanctimonious nonsense. If the boot had been on the other foot you would be revelling in it. What exactly did the Aussies do wrong? ( apart from win the match of course ). Are you telling me sledging and intimidatory bowling aren't well within the rules of the game now? England lost because Australia played better cricket and also because some of your batsmen need to grow a pair. If England respond and turn things around then all well and good but blubbing when things get a bit feisty isn't going to cut it
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It's a bit of a mix here because I agree on not panicking because we do have good players, but at the same time we can't trot out(no pun intended) the line that we've started badly before so it'll all be alright. There are some pretty serious issues with our batting and there has been for some time and they need to be addressed. However we don't need 90mph bowlers to rough them up, they're not very good batsmen and we can easily take them. Also Finn can come in and is as threatening as anyone, we just need to give him confidence. It's about our batsmen standing up and being counted and Swann performing.
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Yeah, a pie chucker like Nathan Lyon looking far more threatening than Swann was a worry.
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Form is temporary and all that. I fully expect us to come back strongly, as we did in India.
I agree. This is a very ordinary Australian team. England are a little short of cricket after the break whilst they are match fit having recently returned from India. There is a long way to go and no need to panic just now.
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So the Aussies surround our last batsman and the 2 umpires have to intervene and call in Michael Clarke only for the stump mic to pick up his 'get ready for a broken fucking arm'- vile scum !
There is a way to win - these tossers have no class or morals - lets pulverise them from here on and rub their dirty Aussie noses in the dirt - we know what they are!
That's some mightily impressive moral outrage there, be careful you don't have a stroke. Have the nasty Aussie's upset you :)
No wombat, there is a way to win with class - your boys lack it but that's understandable - great motivation for us to rub your noses in it and put the Aussies back in their box though ;)
Come on Eastie, that's sanctimonious nonsense. If the boot had been on the other foot you would be revelling in it. What exactly did the Aussies do wrong? ( apart from win the match of course ). Are you telling me sledging and intimidatory bowling aren't well within the rules of the game now? England lost because Australia played better cricket and also because some of your batsmen need to grow a pair. If England respond and turn things around then all well and good but blubbing when things get a bit feisty isn't going to cut it
Wily you're spot on. The only issue I have is with Warners comments. The bloke is clearly a total gobshite and not the brightest. He shouldn't have said what he said, it was very disrespectful, especially considering how England players could have gone public about his antics in the Walkabout. Very ordinary imo.
But everything else is fair game in my book and I'm sure we'd have done (and probably did at Lord's) exactly the same.
;
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Form is temporary and all that. I fully expect us to come back strongly, as we did in India.
I agree. This is a very ordinary Australian team. England are a little short of cricket after the break whilst they are match fit having recently returned from India. There is a long way to go and no need to panic just now.
Trouble is I don't think they are that ordinary anymore. Still question marks about their batting granted but I rate their bowling, especially at home.
We look like a team with players best their sell by date, Trott, Prior even Pietersen. Hope i'm wrong but such was the scale and manner of the defeat I struggle to see us getting back of the canvas. Hope i'm wrong.
Oh, and this will not be like India. The mood here is totally different.
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In regards to the lack of preparation for the tour - you can thank Cricket Australia for that. It is up to them who is available to play in warm up games, and the thought to give put England on wickets that are not going to help us prepare (probably WACA aside, but even that was on the Sheffield Shield wicket which is as bouncy as rock) is all thanks to them. As is the idea to send us to Alice Springs for a match this coming weekend. If the players thought Brisbane was a bit warm they will melt out there (average temp this time of year is 34c - current forecast for later this week is 37c).
And don't start getting excited about Adelaide either - it's a new drop in wicket there and this seasons Sheffield Shield games (the Aussie equivalent of county cricket) have had totals as follows (over 4 days of course)
984 runs - 24 wickets taken (that's in 3 days and 1 session - got draw written all over it).
1237 runs - 23 wickets taken (draw)
1046 runs - 29 wickets taken (draw)
So there is a very good chance we could see Adelaide finish as a draw and we head to Perth 1-0 still.
SCG has also had a facelift with a new stand put in, and again the curators there are saying they are not sure how that is going to affect the wicket.
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This is correct but we can't really complain as they've been doing the same for years - certainly it's not too dissimilar to the 2010/11 tour. In fact we probably get more preparation ahead of the Ashes series than any other series away, South Africa and India to name 2. 1 x 3 day match and 2 x 4 dayers.
The fact is the Aussie team and public have now had a gut full of losing and came at as aggressively and we simply failed to cope. Our big match players largely wilted and we looked completely unprepared once again at the start of a tour.
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Trott has quit the ashes tour suffering from stress related condition - he will take a few months off at home .
Flower has criticised warner for his disgusting comments about trott .
Hope he gets well soon and returns to cricket at some stage .
Meanwhile Clarke has pleaded guilty of using obscene threatening language and been fined .
@SkySportsNews: BREAKING NEWS: Jonathan Trott out of The Ashes with stress-related problem & is flying home. Full details on #ssnhd
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For me I would put root at number 3 and bring Bairstow in at 6 .
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Good luck with the recovery Trotty.
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I feel so sorry for Trott and hope he recovers soon. Warner should be ashamed.
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Bell to 3 for me and then Bairstow or Ballance to 6.
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Bell to 3 for me and then Bairstow or Ballance to 6.
I wouldn't really mind root or bell at 3 to be honest - would go for Bairstow at 6 over ballance as has experienced the ashes and although not a great success wasn't a total failure either.
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So the Aussies surround our last batsman and the 2 umpires have to intervene and call in Michael Clarke only for the stump mic to pick up his 'get ready for a broken fucking arm'- vile scum !
There is a way to win - these tossers have no class or morals - lets pulverise them from here on and rub their dirty Aussie noses in the dirt - we know what they are!
That's some mightily impressive moral outrage there, be careful you don't have a stroke. Have the nasty Aussie's upset you :)
No wombat, there is a way to win with class - your boys lack it but that's understandable - great motivation for us to rub your noses in it and put the Aussies back in their box though ;)
Come on Eastie, that's sanctimonious nonsense. If the boot had been on the other foot you would be revelling in it. What exactly did the Aussies do wrong? ( apart from win the match of course ). Are you telling me sledging and intimidatory bowling aren't well within the rules of the game now? England lost because Australia played better cricket and also because some of your batsmen need to grow a pair. If England respond and turn things around then all well and good but blubbing when things get a bit feisty isn't going to cut it
What the aussies did wrong is 2 fold:
Warner's comments about Trott were in very bad taste, especially given his actions in the summer, he needs to wind it in.
Threatening someone with a broken arm is far beyond acceptable sledging, for it to have come from the Captain again is very bad taste.
All the shit with Broad in the press is pretty pathetic as well, as if no Australian has ever stood their ground when they know they've hit it, it was all a bit pantomime, not saying it was particularly wrong but I'd be far from 'revelling' in it, If the British press did the same I'd be ashamed (to be fair, they made Warner a bit of a villain, but the circumstances are rather different).
Moving on...
Trott out, that's a shame as I really wanted to see him turn it around, he has the quality to do it, but clearly he's not been mentally right, I think it all started with the slow scoring at home to NZ, he got a lot of crap for playing the game his way and I think he let it get to him, ever since he's given his wicket away too often playing shots that just weren't on.
I'm not sure what we should do though, Root up to 3 and Ballance in at 6 is probably the best idea but dumping Ballance in to the middle order for an important Ashes test is a bit harsh, I think I'd be more inclined to give him a go that go with Bairstow who i just don't think has the game to play internationally at the moment. Alternatively we could change tack and throw Bresnan in for the extra seamer, you'd think it'd weaken our batting but given the form of Trott it probably doesn't, Bresnan can get most of those runs and it means we can bring Finn in for Tremlett and use 2 of Finn, Broad or Jimmy as strike bowlers with Bres and the other quick keeping it tight at the other end, it also means that we can hold Swann back a little when the conditions aren't there for him.
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Wombat - there is a way to win with class which your boys lack!
If it is fair game can you explain why Clarke has pleaded guilty to using threatening and obscene language and been fined this morning ?
Be afraid - very afraid , we will come out all guns blazing and blow you Aussies away now!
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@MichaelVaughan: I do feel guilty for criticising Trott this week .. I wasn't to know what he was going through and I can only comment on what I see ...
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@MichaelVaughan: I do feel guilty for criticising Trott this week .. I wasn't to know what he was going through and I can only comment on what I see ...
The only person who needs to apologise for comments made towards Trott won't be doing anything of the sort. The truth is Trott wasn't mentally right to be playing in this series, most commentators said as much, who was to know why he wasn't mentally right. It's a shame and he deserves support, like anyone, to help him get through it but thinking he looked off the game before it came out isn't wrong, he did look a long way short of the quality you'd expect.
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@MichaelVaughan: I do feel guilty for criticising Trott this week .. I wasn't to know what he was going through and I can only comment on what I see ...
The only person who needs to apologise for comments made towards Trott won't be doing anything of the sort. The truth is Trott wasn't mentally right to be playing in this series, most commentators said as much, who was to know why he wasn't mentally right. It's a shame and he deserves support, like anyone, to help him get through it but thinking he looked off the game before it came out isn't wrong, he did look a long way short of the quality you'd expect.
Agreed.
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I guss it will be typical of Aussies to regard Trott leaving as quitting because he had no stomach to stand up to them. Just waiting for comments to that extent.
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Wouldn't we be better calling up Nick Compton? Anyway feck The Aussies. I wouldn't recognise any of them if they hit me in The Aussie Bar.
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The Aussies are making a lot of us feeling the pressure but the behaviour of Clarke and some others suggests they aren't immune to the pressure of their situation.
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But if Trott was in such a condition mentally why the hell wasn't it picked up by the entourage that accompanies these guys nowadays? Everybody knew what the aussies were going to do, they had been shouting it from the roof tops enough, so surely someone should have picked up on Trotts condition as not being able to confront the sort of bowling he got.
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But if Trott was in such a condition mentally why the hell wasn't it picked up by the entourage that accompanies these guys nowadays? Everybody knew what the aussies were going to do, they had been shouting it from the roof tops enough, so surely someone should have picked up on Trotts condition as not being able to confront the sort of bowling he got.
Flower said trott has been suffering for a while and they managed to control it during the summer - they knew all about it and felt it could b managed- seems things have now progressed too far .
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Wouldn't we be better calling up Nick Compton? Anyway feck The Aussies. I wouldn't recognise any of them if they hit me in The Aussie Bar.
Nobody will be called up - I think Compton probably burnt his bridges with flower when he went public in the summer in any case.
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I agree with you but in circumstances like today you call him up.
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I agree with you but in circumstances like today you call him up.
Not sure he's better than what we have there to be honest.
@StuartBroad8: Love Trotty. Absolute champion of a man. He knows he has all the support of all the people around him. Puts cricket in perspective
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It does explain why Trott's form has been declining for a while now.
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@Swannyg66: Glad there are so many good people out there showing support for Trotty. Those who aren't can quite frankly crawl back into the pond
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I agree with Swann there. Compton hasn't burnt his bridges, he had a conversation with Flower about what he needed to be selected after the winter tour was announced. I'd call him up now, because we need options and I think Compton might have the character required.
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I think Stokes might be an option, as I think we need a way to rotate our bowlers more effectively but it is dependant on Prior finding some form.
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Root could play 3 as he played excellently against Johnson in the second innings and didn't look fluster at all.
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I agree with Swann there. Compton hasn't burnt his bridges, he had a conversation with Flower about what he needed to be selected after the winter tour was announced. I'd call him up now, because we need options and I think Compton might have the character required.
Flower has already said that is not going to happen.
We have enough options , root or bell can step up to 3 and either Bairstow, ballance or stokes at 6 .
No need for Compton - don't panic pwa - we will win this series from here .
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It'd good that Lehmann sent a supportive tweet for Trott, hopefully the players will follow suit.
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For me I would put root at number 3 and bring Bairstow in at 6 .
Don't rate Bairstow at all. I'd select Compton. He's an opener so won't be phased facing the new ball and he's got a bit of character about him.
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It'd good that Lehmann sent a supportive tweet for Trott, hopefully the players will follow suit.
Lehmann's a sabre rattling fat ******. This current mob remind me a lot of the Blues team when they first got promoted, lot's of talk in the media, very agressive, lot's of niggly bastards in the side, lower on quality than the opposition.
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For me I would put root at number 3 and bring Bairstow in at 6 .
Don't rate Bairstow at all. I'd select Compton. He's an opener so won't be phased facing the new ball.
I'm not a huge fan myself of Bairstow he did ok at best in the summer , but he has some experience and it's not the time to bring in stokes or ballance in this environment for me.
I have no worries about either root or bell at 3.
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For me I would put root at number 3 and bring Bairstow in at 6 .
Don't rate Bairstow at all. I'd select Compton. He's an opener so won't be phased facing the new ball.
I'm not a huge fan myself of Bairstow he did ok at best in the summer , but he has some experience and it's not the time to bring in stokes or ballance in this environment for me.
I have no worries about either root or bell at 3.
I'd keep Root where he is, he showed a bit of spirit in the last game. Bell for me is technically our soundest player right now so him at 3 makes sense, the only problem is exposing young raw players into this atmosphere right now, the number 6 could quite easily be coming in at 50/4 with the ball still new with catchers all around him and unless they've got the confidence of a KP it's make or break.
Has Flower said definately no call ups?
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For me I would put root at number 3 and bring Bairstow in at 6 .
Don't rate Bairstow at all. I'd select Compton. He's an opener so won't be phased facing the new ball.
I'm not a huge fan myself of Bairstow he did ok at best in the summer , but he has some experience and it's not the time to bring in stokes or ballance in this environment for me.
I have no worries about either root or bell at 3.
I'd keep Root where he is, he showed a bit of spirit in the last game. Bell for me is technically our soundest player right now so him at 3 makes sense, the only problem is exposing young raw players into this atmosphere right now, the number 6 could quite easily be coming in at 50/4 with the ball still new with catchers all around him and unless they've got the confidence of a KP it's make or break.
Has Flower said definately no call ups?
Yes , flower has ruled out call ups saying we have enough options already.
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I always thought you needed another opener at three(or someone good enough to be a opener) so Root for me with Bairstow at 6, Prior better watch out if Bairstow starts to get runs....a poor return bat wise for Matt.
Cook, Carberry, Root, Pietersen, Bell, Bairstow, Prior, Broad, Swann, Anderson and any of the other fit quick bowlers.
but then again Stokes could come in and give abit with the ball too.....
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I always thought you needed another opener at three(or someone good enough to be a opener) so Root for me with Bairstow at 6, Prior better watch out if Bairstow starts to get runs....a poor return bat wise for Matt.
Cook, Carberry, Root, Pietersen, Bell, Bairstow, Prior, Broad, Swann, Anderson and any of the other fit quick bowlers.
but then again Stokes could come in and give abit with the ball too.....
Not sure how close Bresnan is to fitness , will be an interesting choice to see who gets the nod at 10.
All this trott business has deflected attention. Away from Clarke being fined after pleading guilty to using obscene and threatening language.
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yeah what was Clarke thinking ? captain and a great player....shame he behaves badly when he should be setting the example.
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I gather from comments on here that Compton's call-up has been ruled out but that's what I would do. He did well against the Aussies in a warm-up match over here in the summer and we could do with an experienced opener for that position. I know his international experience is limited but our options aren't great. I've not been impressed with Root playing higher up the order at his age and experience. Moving Bell up might be an option but then we need a number 6 and Bairstow did nothing in the summer to justify his place.
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I gather from comments on here that Compton's call-up has been ruled out but that's what I would do. He did well against the Aussies in a warm-up match over here in the summer and we could do with an experienced opener for that position. I know his international experience is limited but our options aren't great. I've not been impressed with Root playing higher up the order at his age and experience. Moving Bell up might be an option but then we need a number 6 and Bairstow did nothing in the summer to justify his place.
I personally would rather Compton than Bairstow although neither are particularly convincing - flower said earlier they will not be calling in anyone else , but who knows - he may reconsider once they have all had chance to think - I was surprised flower dismissed the idea so quickly .
I think the lads will want to win it for trotty and will be fired up for the Adelaide test .
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Warners comments now look a million times worse because of the illness to Trot, but he wasn't to know that when he made them
maybe they were a bit insensitive, but that's Australians for you, I don't mind a great deal about what they say about each other, think we are coming over a bit precious to be honest
Broad deserves the stick he's getting when you stand there like a twat after hitting the ball with a full clean shot, your going to get some stick,
I know Clarke did exactly the same thing and hes also a cheating twat for doing it, we are not talking about nicks here but full batting strokes,
people don't forget outright bad sportsmanship and if you go down that route be prepared to take the pain,
i'm not interested in the 'he started it' 'they did it first' load of bollocks, what Clarke and Broad did was horrendous, shamefull really,
in 30 years time they will still be showing those clips on the telly to show what abysmal bad sportsmanship is all about, that's how embarrassingly bad it was
if we keep on bleating on about winning with class we might as well come home, the Ausies don't do that, so lets just beat the fuckers by fighting fire with fire without the blatent cheating
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Warners comments now look a million times worse because of the illness to Trot, but he wasn't to know that when he made them
And that's why you don't make personal comments in the media over a game of bat and ball.
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Also Clarke with his ''banter'' if say Mulumbu taunts Westwood tonight that he's going to get his leg broken would we be saying he's being a bit precious reacting to it?
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Broad deserves the stick he's getting when you stand there like a twat after hitting the ball with a full clean shot, your going to get some stick,
I know Clarke did exactly the same thing and hes also a cheating twat for doing it, we are not talking about nicks here but full batting strokes,
I completely disagree with this. Cheating can never be qualified by how blatant it is. Not walking after a faint nick is no more admirable than what Broad and Clarke have done.
It always perplexes me when people have a go at footballers for diving, but say nothing when players claim throw ins/corners etc knowing full well it isn't.
Cheating is cheating.
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Broad deserves the stick he's getting when you stand there like a twat after hitting the ball with a full clean shot, your going to get some stick,
I know Clarke did exactly the same thing and hes also a cheating twat for doing it, we are not talking about nicks here but full batting strokes,
I completely disagree with this. Cheating can never be qualified by how blatant it is. Not walking after a faint nick is no more admirable than what Broad and Clarke have done.
It always perplexes me when people have a go at footballers for diving, but say nothing when players claim throw ins/corners etc knowing full well it isn't.
Cheating is cheating.
Allan border has come out and criticised warner for his comments - seems a nasty piece of work that warner .
Regarding the cheating- there is nothing in the rules to state a player should walk after hitting the ball- its the umpires job to make a decision .
Some go your way and some don't - there have been many occasions of batsmen wrongly being given out - Its wrong that the Aussies made such an issue though as they are notorious for not walking.
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Broad deserves the stick he's getting when you stand there like a twat after hitting the ball with a full clean shot, your going to get some stick,
I know Clarke did exactly the same thing and hes also a cheating twat for doing it, we are not talking about nicks here but full batting strokes,
I completely disagree with this. Cheating can never be qualified by how blatant it is. Not walking after a faint nick is no more admirable than what Broad and Clarke have done.
It always perplexes me when people have a go at footballers for diving, but say nothing when players claim throw ins/corners etc knowing full well it isn't.
Cheating is cheating.
Allan border has come out and criticised warner for his comments - seems a nasty piece of work that warner .
Yep, he most certainly is. He hasn't learnt anything, despite his many indiscretions.
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Broad deserves the stick he's getting when you stand there like a twat after hitting the ball with a full clean shot, your going to get some stick,
I know Clarke did exactly the same thing and hes also a cheating twat for doing it, we are not talking about nicks here but full batting strokes,
I completely disagree with this. Cheating can never be qualified by how blatant it is. Not walking after a faint nick is no more admirable than what Broad and Clarke have done.
It always perplexes me when people have a go at footballers for diving, but say nothing when players claim throw ins/corners etc knowing full well it isn't.
Cheating is cheating.
I agree and I don't think they're under any obligation to walk. If you want a game that is whiter than white then you take away part of the drama.
In any case Captains should be a little more circumspect in their use of referrals then they wouldn't put themselves in that position.
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Bad news about Trott. Hardly surprising that some players will suffer in such way when they are constantly on the international treadmill and get hardly any break from it.
As for the Aussies, we've seen and heard it all before from them. Thing is with them, they love to dish it out but can't take it when it is given back to them (still moaning about Bodyline to this day). Time for the kid gloves to come off in the press and on the pitch.
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Broad deserves the stick he's getting when you stand there like a twat after hitting the ball with a full clean shot, your going to get some stick,
I know Clarke did exactly the same thing and hes also a cheating twat for doing it, we are not talking about nicks here but full batting strokes,
I completely disagree with this. Cheating can never be qualified by how blatant it is. Not walking after a faint nick is no more admirable than what Broad and Clarke have done.
It always perplexes me when people have a go at footballers for diving, but say nothing when players claim throw ins/corners etc knowing full well it isn't.
Cheating is cheating.
I agree and I don't think they're under any obligation to walk. If you want a game that is whiter than white then you take away part of the drama.
In any case Captains should be a little more circumspect in their use of referrals then they wouldn't put themselves in that position.
This was always my problem with it, they used their reviews really badly (I remember one of those 2 was going 3-4 inches down leg so it wasn't a 50/50 that they got unlucky with) and they've used the whole outrage at him not walking as a defence of their captain making shit decisions with the DRS.
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Should Trott have even got on the plane if this stress related illness had been on going for a while?
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Broad deserves the stick he's getting when you stand there like a twat after hitting the ball with a full clean shot, your going to get some stick,
I know Clarke did exactly the same thing and hes also a cheating twat for doing it, we are not talking about nicks here but full batting strokes,
I completely disagree with this. Cheating can never be qualified by how blatant it is. Not walking after a faint nick is no more admirable than what Broad and Clarke have done.
It always perplexes me when people have a go at footballers for diving, but say nothing when players claim throw ins/corners etc knowing full well it isn't.
Cheating is cheating.
well that's just my view,
I don't agree with the assumption that there is no degrees cheating,
if someone claims a throw in that's one thing, if someone bribes the ref to give a penalty that's considerably worse, there is no way in a million years that they should be dealt with in a similar fashion, yet they are both cheating and cheating is cheating in your view
its the same as some one driving at 32mph in a 30 yes its illegal but not to the same extent as someone who goes and stabs someone to death
there are degrees in everything, and what Clarke and Broad did was an embarrassment to the game, I cant believe anyone could even contemplate excusing it, it was so blatent
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Should Trott have even got on the plane if this stress related illness had been on going for a while?
He should not have been near the plane if the extent of the illness had been known. Saying that, he did reasonably well in the warm up games so I guess they probably hoped he had turned a corner.
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Warners comments now look a million times worse because of the illness to Trot, but he wasn't to know that when he made them
And that's why you don't make personal comments in the media over a game of bat and ball.
I'm not saying he did right, i'm saying we shouldn't make a big issue about it, it just makes us look weak
i'm sure Lillee, Hughes and a few of ours have said worse down the years, they just got on with it, doesn't make it right but it something that's been around in cricket for decades
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I agree with Swann there. Compton hasn't burnt his bridges, he had a conversation with Flower about what he needed to be selected after the winter tour was announced. I'd call him up now, because we need options and I think Compton might have the character required.
Flower has already said that is not going to happen.
We have enough options , root or bell can step up to 3 and either Bairstow, ballance or stokes at 6 .
No need for Compton - don't panic pwa - we will win this series from here .
Got to be Bell for me. Having the relatively inexperience of Carberry and Root at the top of the order does not inspire confidence. Bell has batted there before for England and done well.
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Broad deserves the stick he's getting when you stand there like a twat after hitting the ball with a full clean shot, your going to get some stick,
I know Clarke did exactly the same thing and hes also a cheating twat for doing it, we are not talking about nicks here but full batting strokes,
I completely disagree with this. Cheating can never be qualified by how blatant it is. Not walking after a faint nick is no more admirable than what Broad and Clarke have done.
It always perplexes me when people have a go at footballers for diving, but say nothing when players claim throw ins/corners etc knowing full well it isn't.
Cheating is cheating.
well that's just my view,
I don't agree with the assumption that there is no degrees cheating,
if someone claims a throw in that's one thing, if someone bribes the ref to give a penalty that's considerably worse, there is no way in a million years that they should be dealt with in a similar fashion,
its the same as some one driving at 32mph in a 30 yes its illegal but not to the same extent as someone who goes and stabs someone to death
there are degrees in everything, and what Clarke and Broad did was an embarrassment to the game, I cant believe anyone could even contemplate excusing it, it was so blatent
I'm not excusing Broad and Clarke by any means. I just don't think they should be hung out to dry, whilst someone like Haddin, who admitted to edging the ball at Trent Bridge isn't given precisely the same treatment.
My point is that people seem to believe there is an acceptable level of cheating in sport, which I completely disagree with.
I think the illegal argument you make is a bit spurious. Degrees of cheating in sport isn't really comparable to the difference between speeding and stabbing someone to death.
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Interesting that prior stayed at the crease after an edge onto the pads and the Aussies went to DRS which showed he was clearly out - no song and dance about prior not walking or was that because they won?
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Broad deserves the stick he's getting when you stand there like a twat after hitting the ball with a full clean shot, your going to get some stick,
I know Clarke did exactly the same thing and hes also a cheating twat for doing it, we are not talking about nicks here but full batting strokes,
I completely disagree with this. Cheating can never be qualified by how blatant it is. Not walking after a faint nick is no more admirable than what Broad and Clarke have done.
It always perplexes me when people have a go at footballers for diving, but say nothing when players claim throw ins/corners etc knowing full well it isn't.
Cheating is cheating.
well that's just my view,
I don't agree with the assumption that there is no degrees cheating,
if someone claims a throw in that's one thing, if someone bribes the ref to give a penalty that's considerably worse, there is no way in a million years that they should be dealt with in a similar fashion,
its the same as some one driving at 32mph in a 30 yes its illegal but not to the same extent as someone who goes and stabs someone to death
there are degrees in everything, and what Clarke and Broad did was an embarrassment to the game, I cant believe anyone could even contemplate excusing it, it was so blatent
I'm not excusing Broad and Clarke by any means. I just don't think they should be hung out to dry, whilst someone like Haddin, who admitted to edging the ball at Trent Bridge isn't given precisely the same treatment.
My point is that people seem to believe there is an acceptable level of cheating in sport, which I completely disagree with.
I think the illegal argument you make is a bit spurious. Degrees of cheating in sport isn't really comparable to the difference between speeding and stabbing someone to death.
they are not being hung out to dry though, most people think its alright to smack the ball and stand your ground,
I don't,
therefore if Broad gets a bit of stick then he's only got himself to blame, I certainly wont be sticking up for him as I hate cheating in all its forms,
but as I said there are degrees and Broad and Clarke were cheating on the high end of that spectrum
that's just the way I feel, I can understand other viewpoints, I just not mine
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Interesting that prior stayed at the crease after an edge onto the pads and the Aussies went to DRS which showed he was clearly out - no song and dance about prior not walking or was that because they won?
Exactly. I feel as well that Broad has unfairly been targeted because the decision to give him not out was so extraordinarily wrong. That's not his fault - if a batsman nicks it or launches it to mid-on, they will know either way - but it was such a mistake by the umpire that the Aussies got rather pissed off and needed to direct it at someone, and Broad has become the target.
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Broad's not walking is not worse than anyone who has edged the ball and not walked. Also he didn't actually edge it that hard, the majority of the deflection was caused by Haddin's gloves. In any case I hope Trott gets better, it explains why he's trade mark concentration hasn't been there for a while now.
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Get well soon Trotty
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All the shit with Broad in the press is pretty pathetic as well, as if no Australian has ever stood their ground when they know they've hit it, it was all a bit pantomime, not saying it was particularly wrong but I'd be far from 'revelling' in it, If the British press did the same I'd be ashamed (to be fair, they made Warner a bit of a villain, but the circumstances are rather different).
You mean like Michael Clarke did in Adelaide at the end of Day 4 in 2010 off the bowling of KP? Luckily England still had a review available.
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I'm in fairly consistent form for Corrimal Cricket Club as their opener, am used to the Australian wicket and pretty nifty at the old sledging lark - if this doesn't get me called up to replace Trott nothing will!
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Warners comments now look a million times worse because of the illness to Trot, but he wasn't to know that when he made them
maybe they were a bit insensitive, but that's Australians for you, I don't mind a great deal about what they say about each other, think we are coming over a bit precious to be honest
Broad deserves the stick he's getting when you stand there like a twat after hitting the ball with a full clean shot, your going to get some stick,
I know Clarke did exactly the same thing and hes also a cheating twat for doing it, we are not talking about nicks here but full batting strokes,
people don't forget outright bad sportsmanship and if you go down that route be prepared to take the pain,
i'm not interested in the 'he started it' 'they did it first' load of bollocks, what Clarke and Broad did was horrendous, shamefull really,
in 30 years time they will still be showing those clips on the telly to show what abysmal bad sportsmanship is all about, that's how embarrassingly bad it was
if we keep on bleating on about winning with class we might as well come home, the Ausies don't do that, so lets just beat the fuckers by fighting fire with fire without the blatent cheating
Well said Sir, some of the posts in this thread are pathetic and conform to the Aussie stereotype of the whinging Pom. Winning with class my arse
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I don't think anyone is saying we have to win with class, but there's a line. Also Broad's is no worse than all those before him including Haddin and Clarke in the summer.
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I see the England squad aren't talking to the Australian media. I don't blame them but I don't know if it's the best thing to do.
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I don't think anyone is saying we have to win with class, but there's a line. Also Broad's is no worse than all those before him including Haddin and Clarke in the summer.
Oh yes they are! Broad took some stick and fair enough although I agree that he wasn't the first to stand his ground and I very much doubt he'll be the last .The media hype around it is clearly meant to stir up a bit of controversy and the Aussie tabloid media is no better or worse than the British press in that regard. Most Aussies I've spoken to about it respect the way Broad took it on the chin and came back firing. So far as the sledging goes it's playground stuff, Clarke was unlucky his comments were picked up by the stump mike and has been fined accordingly. Warner, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, says it as he sees it and although I've genuine sympathy with Trott and hope he can get over his issues he wasn't that wide of the mark when he said he didn't seem to have the stomach for the battle. I just think that people need to suck it up, get over it and get on with the game
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I don't think anyone is saying we have to win with class, but there's a line. Also Broad's is no worse than all those before him including Haddin and Clarke in the summer.
Oh yes they are! Broad took some stick and fair enough although I agree that he wasn't the first to stand his ground and I very much doubt he'll be the last .The media hype around it is clearly meant to stir up a bit of controversy and the Aussie tabloid media is no better or worse than the British press in that regard. Most Aussies I've spoken to about it respect the way Broad took it on the chin and came back firing. So far as the sledging goes it's playground stuff, Clarke was unlucky his comments were picked up by the stump mike and has been fined accordingly. Warner, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, says it as he sees it and although I've genuine sympathy with Trott and hope he can get over his issues he wasn't that wide of the mark when he said he didn't seem to have the stomach for the battle. I just think that people need to suck it up, get over it and get on with the game
So australians whining for 6months about Broad not walking is ok but British people being fed up it and thinking that the entire approach from Australia is disrespectful and without class are typical whining poms. Nice. I've never met anyone more prone to sulking when things aren't going well than an australian sports fan and their behaviour this year just backs it up. I like the fact that threatening someone with a broken arm would only be playground stuff if it hadn't been picked up on the mic as well.
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Nice to see a convict team celebrate winning their first test in 10 like they've won the whole thing. How times have changed.
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I don't think anyone is saying we have to win with class, but there's a line. Also Broad's is no worse than all those before him including Haddin and Clarke in the summer.
Oh yes they are! Broad took some stick and fair enough although I agree that he wasn't the first to stand his ground and I very much doubt he'll be the last .The media hype around it is clearly meant to stir up a bit of controversy and the Aussie tabloid media is no better or worse than the British press in that regard. Most Aussies I've spoken to about it respect the way Broad took it on the chin and came back firing. So far as the sledging goes it's playground stuff, Clarke was unlucky his comments were picked up by the stump mike and has been fined accordingly. Warner, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, says it as he sees it and although I've genuine sympathy with Trott and hope he can get over his issues he wasn't that wide of the mark when he said he didn't seem to have the stomach for the battle. I just think that people need to suck it up, get over it and get on with the game
So australians whining for 6months about Broad not walking is ok but British people being fed up it and thinking that the entire approach from Australia is disrespectful and without class are typical whining poms. Nice. I've never met anyone more prone to sulking when things aren't going well than an australian sports fan and their behaviour this year just backs it up. I like the fact that threatening someone with a broken arm would only be playground stuff if it hadn't been picked up on the mic as well.
The double standards in all this, even by Australia's high standards, is truly breathtaking.
Mathew Hayden was on TV the other day accusing England of being arrogant winners. Yes, that'd be the same Matthew Hayden that asked an English batsman who he was and what made him think he was good enough to play against Australia when he came out to bat.
Hypocrite of the highest order and I'm afraid he's not alone.
Nice to see 4 former Aussie Captains come out and slam Warner, in Mark Taylor, Allan Border, Steve Waugh and Kim Hughes. Unfortunately though this doesn't fit the rabid media agenda here so it's hardly being reported. It's all about Hhayden and the unofficial spokesman of the Australian Cricket team, Shane Warne.
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I see the England squad aren't talking to the Australian media. I don't blame them but I don't know if it's the best thing to do.
That didn't impress me to be honest. I'm guessing it was mainly because of Trott, but as john e said you have to judge those comments on what was known or not known at the time and not with hindsight.
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Regardless of Trott's illness, Warner should'nt have said what he said.
To be fair, I don't think he really meant to say it. A journo asked a few leading questions and out it came. He's really not bright enough to hold press conferences with journos after a spicy angle circleing him.
Anyway, siege mentalities rarely work on Cricket tours abroad. They are too long and it eats teams up in the end.
I'd rather our press dug the dirt on Warner and his misses (the term more pricks than a 2nd hand dartboard spring to mind) to show them what real press deviants do - then we'll see whose mentally strong.
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Is it just me that thinks of Albion and their fans every time I see an Ausie player or the "fanatics" on the telly?
I wouldn't mind if they had the class to do things in a humourous way, but they've turned from someone I don't give 2 shits about into an annoying pain in the arse that you just want to slap.
I remember the fanatics trying to create an atmosphere over here in the summer and they were laughed at by the England fans
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I don't think anyone is saying we have to win with class, but there's a line. Also Broad's is no worse than all those before him including Haddin and Clarke in the summer.
no better either, as all are cheats
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Tim Bresnan hit an unbeaten 57 for the England Performance Programme on the opening day of their match against Queensland 2nd XI.
All-rounder Bresnan, who is recovering from a stress fracture in his lower back, was playing for the first time since the fourth Ashes Test in August.
The EPP made 376-9 after being put in to bat, with Middlesex batsman Sam Robson scoring a century in Brisbane.
Worcestershire's Moeen Ali made 83 while wicketkeeper Jos Buttler hit 54.
England's Test squad have travelled to Alice Springs for their two-day match against a CA Chairman's XI which starts on Friday.
Bresnan, however, remained in Brisbane to prove his fitness ahead of the second Ashes Test in Adelaide, which begins on 5 December.
The 28-year-old from Yorkshire has played 21 Tests for England, scoring more than 500 runs and taking 67 wickets.
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@MichaelVaughan: Looking at the Order England have picked for Alice it looks like Balance will make debut in Adelaide and Root will Bat 3... #Ashes
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Well that's fair enough, I don't mind Ballance being given a shot and Root played Johnson excellently in that second innings. Stokes's time will come, but I do worry about our third seamer. I think we need Finn because we need our third seamer to be able to come on and knock some of them over.
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Although Ballance was one of the few high spots of that first day, our batting line up failed miserably again. That's a huge worry, 212-7 is not good.
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I think the biggest worry is that again all the batsmen other than Carberry got starts but they couldn't go on to a big score. This has been a problem of ours for a while now.
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Our batsmen are getting out too cheaply and they're not scoring quick enough either. We're too nervous we need to start being aggressive and more proactive with the bat.
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Don't like the sound of having Root at 3. I would rather Bell been moved there.
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Don't like the sound of having Root at 3. I would rather Bell been moved there.
Bell has been our best batsman this year, why move him and risk that?
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I think they won't move Bell because it'll leave a very inexperienced middle order.
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I think Root is more than capable of batting at 3, its just worrying that he's being moved around the order so much in what is an early part of his career.
I do like Ballance , and another left hander in the line up can't be a bad thing.
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Root at three yes, but I'd pick Ben Stokes over Ballance because of his bowling. We haven't got an all-rounder, time to see if Stokes can be that man I reckon.
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Don't like the sound of having Root at 3. I would rather Bell been moved there.
Bell has been our best batsman this year, why move him and risk that?
It's because he's been our best batsman that I would elevate him up the order. Mark Butcher says he wants the job too. Whereas I don't think Root is ready for that position at international level.
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Root at three yes, but I'd pick Ben Stokes over Ballance because of his bowling. We haven't got an all-rounder, time to see if Stokes can be that man I reckon.
I'd agree with you, if Prior wasn't in a completely horrendous run of form.
I think a six and seven of Stokes and Prior would be too much of a risk at the moment.
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Root at three yes, but I'd pick Ben Stokes over Ballance because of his bowling. We haven't got an all-rounder, time to see if Stokes can be that man I reckon.
I'd agree with you, if Prior wasn't in a completely horrendous run of form.
I think a six and seven of Stokes and Prior would be too much of a risk at the moment.
Fuck it, take the risk, Ballance is no more of a risk as a batsman than Stokes really, and at least Stokes can bowl if the drop in pitch turns out to be a flat nightmare.
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Don't like the sound of having Root at 3. I would rather Bell been moved there.
Bell has been our best batsman this year, why move him and risk that?
It's because he's been our best batsman that I would elevate him up the order. Mark Butcher says he wants the job too. Whereas I don't think Root is ready for that position at international level.
If Bell wants to do it (which seems to be the case) then i'm all for it, if he'd been unsure I would'nt have moved him, as said, for me it's about balancing getting the best option at 3 and not disrupting the preparation of our best player.
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Don't like the sound of having Root at 3. I would rather Bell been moved there.
Bell has been our best batsman this year, why move him and risk that?
It's because he's been our best batsman that I would elevate him up the order. Mark Butcher says he wants the job too. Whereas I don't think Root is ready for that position at international level.
If Bell wants to do it (which seems to be the case) then i'm all for it, if he'd been unsure I would'nt have moved him, as said, for me it's about balancing getting the best option at 3 and not disrupting the preparation of our best player.
Bell has some big tons at 3 doesn't he? I'd say let the experienced player make the move and let the young player settle into his own spot first.
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I think we need more bowling options so I'd pick Stokes, but we'll go with Ballance.
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What about this team Paul
Cook, Carberry, Root, KP, Bell, Stokes, Prior, Broad, Swann, Anderson and Monty..
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It'd be ambitious, which isn't very England. It depends how flat the pitch will be, it'd give us bowling options but traditionally when we've played two spinners we've struggled.
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I really hope whatever team we select we come out aggressively on Wednesday. We need to remember the Aussies aren't a good side, they have a good bowling attack but we've let them get on top of us. We need to impose ourselves now and see how they cope under pressure. When we knocked them over for sub 300 on that pitch they were below par, it's just our batting crumbled. We need our big players to stand up and it's been a while since they did consistently. Cook, KP, Anderson, Swann and Prior should all be performing at a consistently high level now and we need Root to do the same. If we do that and Broad continues we'll be fine.
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We certainly need to be more prepared aggression wise.
They, as a nation, are right up for this and we got caught with our pants down and let them get on top of us which has served to really galvanise the Aussies.
Lehmann, Clarke and their unofficial media spokesman Warne are every day banging on about wanting the crowds to be as parochial as they can. We need to put in a performance to shut them up else I really fear for us.
Time for our big players to really stand up.
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I see Bres has been officially added to the squad after his injury, he did well last time he was in Australia so hopefully he can have a similar impact this time, if he's right I'd put him in on weds/thurs.
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I see Bres has been officially added to the squad after his injury, he did well last time he was in Australia so hopefully he can have a similar impact this time, if he's right I'd put him in on weds/thurs.
I would now that Tremlett seems to be fulfilling his role now basically, but without the batting.
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I see Bres has been officially added to the squad after his injury, he did well last time he was in Australia so hopefully he can have a similar impact this time, if he's right I'd put him in on weds/thurs.
I would now that Tremlett seems to be fulfilling his role now basically, but without the batting.
Exactly, it's also worth pointing out, the bowling in the first test was fine in the first innings, the 2nd innings wasn't so good but that was affected by a combination of not getting enough rest between innings and the respective confidence of the sides after our batting collapse.
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I think this is a must win game if we want to win the series - defeat here and the ashes are almost lost , win here and we are back in the driving seat- the Aussies will fancy winning in Perth with their pace attack so we need to make this test count.
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What about this team Paul
Cook, Carberry, Root, KP, Bell, Stokes, Prior, Broad, Swann, Anderson and Monty..
Heard Dominic Cork on the radio earlier saying that he'd heard whispers on the grapevine that England are considering going with two spinners and that Monty could be starting. Also said that he thought they may go with Ballance as well.
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@BumbleCricket: Would not be surprised if Eng opt two spinners
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If we do opt for two spinners I'd be surprised if Stokes doesn't bat 6, just because it's a lot of pressure on two seamers.
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I see Clarke has named our side again, hilarious.
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If we do opt for two spinners I'd be surprised if Stokes doesn't bat 6, just because it's a lot of pressure on two seamers.
Or prior at 6 and Bresnan at 7 ?
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Can't see that happening, Prior is unlikely to be promoted given his current form.
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The only other option is to put Ballance at 6 and bring Panesar in for Tremlett, thus leaving Bresnan out. I can't see that happening, as two seamers is very light.
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If we do opt for two spinners I'd be surprised if Stokes doesn't bat 6, just because it's a lot of pressure on two seamers.
Or prior at 6 and Bresnan at 7 ?
That would be my thinking if we want to fit Monty in we really need an extra bowler because we don't have any part timer who can come in and bowl even medium pacers with any consistency. This was another value Collingwood provided, he could tie up one end for a few overs here and there, without being smashed out of the ground.
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If we do opt for two spinners I'd be surprised if Stokes doesn't bat 6, just because it's a lot of pressure on two seamers.
Or prior at 6 and Bresnan at 7 ?
That would be my thinking if we want to fit Monty in we really need an extra bowler because we don't have any part timer who can come in and bowl even medium pacers with any consistency. This was another value Collingwood provided, he could tie up one end for a few overs here and there, without being smashed out of the ground.
As we haven't really got an established number 6 and the pitch looks as if it could turn quite a bit and take some swing too I think I would go with Bresnan as the third seamer and 2 spinners - prior may not be the ideal number 6 but with Bresnan at 7 they would hopefully chip in with enough runs .
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I really hope firstly we win the toss and bat and secondly we pile on a massive first innings score of 500+. Then let's see how they cope under pressure.
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If we do opt for two spinners I'd be surprised if Stokes doesn't bat 6, just because it's a lot of pressure on two seamers.
Or prior at 6 and Bresnan at 7 ?
Prior's woeful form in no way should see him promoted up the order.
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According to Beeb Stokes plays
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If we do opt for two spinners I'd be surprised if Stokes doesn't bat 6, just because it's a lot of pressure on two seamers.
Or prior at 6 and Bresnan at 7 ?
Prior's woeful form in no way should see him promoted up the order.
Why not? He can't really bat any worse and it might cause him to be a little more cautious in his approach, given his low scores have been a direct result of his seemingly eager attitude to giving his wicket away I'm all for anything that makes him bat with a bit more maturity.
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Lost the toss - Australia batting
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Same team for Aussies
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Besides Stokes, Panesar in as well - no Bresnan
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Cook, Carberry, Root 3, Pietersen, Bell, Stokes, Prior, Broad, Swann,Anderson & Panesar
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Worried about Root at 3. Crap to have lost the toss, we'll probably be under a lot of pressure and the evidence so far is that we'll crumble.
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Worried about Root at 3. Crap to have lost the toss, we'll probably be under a lot of pressure and the evidence so far is that we'll crumble.
I disagree, I don't mind starting with the ball here, our batting is the problem, a good performance with the ball, but without them getting a big partnership in the tail, and it'll be good for our confidence. If we'd started with the bat and lost a couple early the pressure would've been far greater.
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Hopefully we are not batted out of the game by tea.
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Worried about Root at 3. Crap to have lost the toss, we'll probably be under a lot of pressure and the evidence so far is that we'll crumble.
I disagree, I don't mind starting with the ball here, our batting is the problem, a good performance with the ball, but without them getting a big partnership in the tail, and it'll be good for our confidence. If we'd started with the bat and lost a couple early the pressure would've been far greater.
The pitch is really flat.....hard work to take wkts on here......now prove me wrong and get 5 down before lunch!!! I really don't think will happen.
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Gone off for rain.....which lasted all of 30 seconds.....barmy....back out now
0-0 1 over
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Worried about Root at 3. Crap to have lost the toss, we'll probably be under a lot of pressure and the evidence so far is that we'll crumble.
I disagree, I don't mind starting with the ball here, our batting is the problem, a good performance with the ball, but without them getting a big partnership in the tail, and it'll be good for our confidence. If we'd started with the bat and lost a couple early the pressure would've been far greater.
The pitch is really flat.....hard work to take wkts on here......now prove me wrong and get 5 down before lunch!!! I really don't think will happen.
Indeed, but I'm still more confident in the bowling unit than in the batsmen at the minute. We need something to spark us into form and I think the bowlers are much more likely to provide that on the evidence of the last year.
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If we take more than 2 wickets today ill be absolutely delighted.
People may call this pitch flat, but I prefer the description "Fucking joke of a surface"
I still don't trust our batsmen to get a respectable score on it though.
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I agree about the pitch i am seriously considering going to bed now rather than tea time.
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I agree about the pitch i am seriously considering going to bed now rather than tea time.
I would already be asleep if it wasn't for this chronic tooth ache keeping me awake.
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There's the first - a chance to keep the lid on the scoring a bit now although Watson will probably come hard too.
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Good job i haven't gone yet....twat Warner gone - i'll post in about 30 minutes about going to bed again...34-1
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Fucking hell that was an atrocious way to get out on this pitch!!
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Bollocks to it ...i am going to bed....take TMS with me!!!
All these friggin breaks for rain.
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Strauss getting dangerously close to the dreaded comb over there!
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Oh man I hope we don't rue that Haddin dropped catch. 270-6 would have been a great day for England. Don't let these two get a big partnership please England.
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Mixed day, because losing the toss was bad. I'm glad we went with a bold selection, because I think it will help the batsmen mentally. Stokes playing means that the main batsmen can't look down the order and go 'if I mess it up someone else will dig us out of trouble.' 270-5 is decent enough on that pitch, but the Haddin drop was really bad. I hope we get him out early in the morning, we really need them out for less than 360. We then desperately need to turn up with the bat.
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Mixed day, because losing the toss was bad. I'm glad we went with a bold selection, because I think it will help the batsmen mentally. Stokes playing means that the main batsmen can't look down the order and go 'if I mess it up someone else will dig us out of trouble.' 270-5 is decent enough on that pitch, but the Haddin drop was really bad. I hope we get him out early in the morning, we really need them out for less than 360. We then desperately need to turn up with the bat.
Decent day on paper, after losing the toss, but I'm afraid I think Aus have already made more than England are going to make in their first innings. With their best batsmen at the wicket and still to come, the Aussies will probably get over 400 and lead by 150-200 on 1st innings.
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Well if that's the case it makes no odds what we do, because we'll never win any games if we can't bat. However I have a feeling we'll perform in this game, Carberry can make up for his drop by catching Clarke and Haddin early tomorrow and then scoring a double century.
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Honours even but I do worry about our batting.
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Mixed day, because losing the toss was bad. I'm glad we went with a bold selection, because I think it will help the batsmen mentally. Stokes playing means that the main batsmen can't look down the order and go 'if I mess it up someone else will dig us out of trouble.' 270-5 is decent enough on that pitch, but the Haddin drop was really bad. I hope we get him out early in the morning, we really need them out for less than 360. We then desperately need to turn up with the bat.
Decent day on paper, after losing the toss, but I'm afraid I think Aus have already made more than England are going to make in their first innings. With their best batsmen at the wicket and still to come, the Aussies will probably get over 400 and lead by 150-200 on 1st innings.
Still to come?
Take another wicket and we're into the bowlers. Yes, Johnson can play a bit but he's not amongst their 'best batsmen' by any stretch of the imagination.
Game nicely balanced and a good first session tomorrow, for either side, "might" be decisive.
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I think we really need to get them out for under 360-370 and then bat long and well. Our ideal scenario would be to have a 130-180 lead going into the second innings, but it means we have to bowl very well tomorrow morning, hold our catches and then bat excellently. The batsmen owe the team and it's time they turned up.
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England bowlers have done better than expected on this pitch. However knocking them over for under 350 will be good and than the batters have to post 450+ by close of play on the third day to stand a chance of winning this match.
A tall order all around.
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Monty (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-2518483/The-Ashes-2013-14-Monty-Panesar-racist-tweet-Cricket-Australia-mustnt-ignoramuses--Martin-Samuel.html)
I can not believe that this was on their official site. Apologies if it has been discussed previously.
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It is a tall order, but we need to start playing well if we want to have any chance. On the Monty tweet, it's ridiculous and naive.
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I thought the bowlers performed brilliantly on that pitch, but weren't backed up by the fielders. 450 would seem to be the bare minimum batting first under normal circumstances on this deck, but with our batsmen I just can't see us getting a competitive score on any surface at the moment.
The Carberry drop is only forgivable if he comes out and smashes a big hundred. Can't see it though, he's not good enough.
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For all of the criticism of Cook's captaincy he's starting to become pretty inventive and forceful in my opinion.
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Bollocks to it ...i am going to bed....take TMS with me!!!
All these friggin breaks for rain.
I thought you said TSM then for a minute ;)
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Interesting state of play - fairly much all to play for on both sides - a big 1st session tomorrow.
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Get stuck into them in the morning. Forget what could have been with the couple of catches, if we had said before start of play Australia would be 270-5 I would have said honours even, maybe slight swing to England. Get them gone for around 350. Then put in a batting effort. The bottom line is if we cannot post 400+'s during the series then the bowling isn't really going to matter and neither are a few drops, we need runs.
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Get stuck into them in the morning. Forget what could have been with the couple of catches, if we had said before start of play Australia would be 270-5 I would have said honours even, maybe slight swing to England. Get them gone for around 350. Then put in a batting effort. The bottom line is if we cannot post 400+'s during the series then the bowling isn't really going to matter and neither are a few drops, we need runs.
Pretty much spot on .
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Mixed day, because losing the toss was bad. I'm glad we went with a bold selection, because I think it will help the batsmen mentally. Stokes playing means that the main batsmen can't look down the order and go 'if I mess it up someone else will dig us out of trouble.' 270-5 is decent enough on that pitch, but the Haddin drop was really bad. I hope we get him out early in the morning, we really need them out for less than 360. We then desperately need to turn up with the bat.
Decent day on paper, after losing the toss, but I'm afraid I think Aus have already made more than England are going to make in their first innings. With their best batsmen at the wicket and still to come, the Aussies will probably get over 400 and lead by 150-200 on 1st innings.
My thinking too.
In isolation, not a bad day at all. But Australia will be reasonably confident they can tack on another 100+ with 5 wickets in hand.
In truth, the way England have batted recently, they'd have needed to restrict Australia to 180 all out to stand any chance. On that basis, this one has prob already gone.
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There is not a chance at this stage that this one is already gone.
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If Australia get past 400, I don't see England matching (or bettering) that. Would love to be proved wrong, mind.
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I'm hoping they don't get past 350.
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I'm hoping they don't get past 350.
350 would be a good bowling display for us - I think under 400 and we are in the game as regards possibly winning - 450 plus and the Aussies would be firmly in the driving seat - my worry is Clarke and haddin can both score big and we need to dismiss them quickly.
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We need to come out on fire in the morning, we've essentially got a new ball to use and the bowlers have had a nights rest. It's really important we give them nothing and force them to make mistakes. Under 350 we've got a great chance, 350-400 in the balance, 450 + Australia in command.
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Obviously that's all dependent on us batting very well, but unless we do that it's all irrelevant anyway. We have the players who can bat well and long and they need to do it now.
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Slight edge for England at the moment is my view. Australia need 320 minimum and that's no nailed on certainty. The pitch is flat and true so there's every chance for the English batsmen to get out there and make a heap. Funny thing but the tests down here in Adelaide do tend to throw up some late and unexpected dramas so every chance of an exciting finish. Weather set fine for the next few days too
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Obviously that's all dependent on us batting very well, but unless we do that it's all irrelevant anyway. We have the players who can bat well and long and they need to do it now.
Indeed.
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Losing the toss was a blow, but that's the way it goes I think Cook has been quite lucky with the tos in the past
If we had held on to our catches we would be well on top, we didn't and I think they have the advantage now, if Clarke goes early on you ever know, but can't see them scoring less than 400 so I think it will be difficult to win this one,
I'd take a draw if I could right now
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This has been an abysmal start. No wickets and no control.
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Oh just fuck off England. Need a good start this morning and you produce this shite?
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How the fuck does Carberry have a reputation of a good fielder?
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This is just too easy. Not making them make any sort of effort to score runs.
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Why is Swann insistent on bowling like a cretin?
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Anderson looks a shadow of his former self on this tour.
I think he needs to be dropped for Perth along with Swann who has also been poor. I think this game is lost now, unless our batsmen can bat properly (which would be a miracle).
Cook
Root
Bell
Pietersen
Ballance
Bairstow
Prior
Broad
Finn
Rankin
Panesar
Would be my team for Perth.
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Another fucking drop. Brilliant.
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Show some fucking fight England, instead of meakly surrendering yet again.
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The bottom line is, when those big moments come around they need to be taken. England have not done that at all so far and that's why they're in the shit now.
You can't legislate for dropped catches but dropping Clarke AND Haddin (Clarkes was a sharp chance but should have been taken at this level, Haddins was a dolly) as well as missing run out opportunities (always difficult but it's on these that matches can turn) mean that England have failed to take their chances on a flat pitch and thus will get what they deserve.
Get Haddin last night and Aus are 6-275, Johnson at the crease against the new ball with 3 or 4 overs left under pressure, totally different game.
The reality is, Australia have improved a lot since Lord's and have looked a settled side that are on the up. England have looked increasingly like a side living of their reputations rather than performances.
One thing I really don't like is that we also look like a side that seems to be feeling a bit sorry for itself too. You just can't do that in an Ashes series, especially over here.
I fear that all of those chickens will come home to roost over the next month or so.
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What a fucking joke. Sums it all up.
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Theres no anger or fight in this England side. Stokes should be fuming with himself now, and sending a few at the batsmens heads. He won't though.
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3 dropped catches, 2 missed run outs and a wicket of a no ball - on a flat track.
They are trying, they're just not good enough when the big moments come around.
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3 dropped catches, 2 missed run outs and a wicket of a no ball - on a flat track.
They are trying, they're just not good enough when the big moments come around.
England built pressure yesterday by bowling tight spells. Today Swann has bowled around the wicket with virtually every ball down the legside making it extremely easy to score. The seamers today have either bowled short and wide or at leg stump
Australia just haven't had to do anything to score runs. The body language has also been poor. Our fielding has been pathetic in this innings.
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Also why has Broad only bowled 3 overs in this session? He's the only seamer who looks like he could trouble the batsmen.
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Priors wicket keeping has become as poor as his batting this series.
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Score.prediction for end of the day:
Australia 550/6 declared
England 40/3 from 23 overs
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The only saving grace is that on this deck i cant see the Aussies bowling us out twice. But we have been a shambles in the field. Swann seems more interested in protecting his run-rate than taking wickets. He looks a different animal from a year ago.
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Well, that session couldn't really have gone any worse. They've taken the game away from us and we look really rattled.
Which gives the Aussie media more ammunition with the 'Whinging Poms' line which gets the crowd going and we just look like a side that feels a bit too sorry for itself.
Clarke another ton, Haddin getting runs after simple let offs. When you're largely getting outplayed you must take your chances to stay in the game. When you don't you end up with results like Brisbane. I fear that this tour could really descend into a repeat of 06/07 unless who show some fight with the bat.
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http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/cricket/poms-no1-whinger-in-gabba-fallout/story-fnii0dno-1226776536277
And this is the kind of shit we have to put up with thanks to a pathetic "look at us" local media and badly handled management from the ECB.
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Well the Aussies have finally had enough and how we bat now may decide the series one way or the other.
It's a flat pitch but it's time to stand up, something we haven't done for a while.
4 dropped catches, 2 missed run outs and a wicket off a no ball - pretty shite all in all.
Graeme Swann has now been humiliated in two Test Matches.
Absolutely, no way can he play in Perth.
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The only saving grace is that on this deck i cant see the Aussies bowling us out twice. But we have been a shambles in the field. Swann seems more interested in protecting his run-rate than taking wickets. He looks a different animal from a year ago.
Really? Have you not seen the way we've batted the last 2 years?
Cook - Very poor run of form
Carberry - Nothing I've seen suggests he's remotely good enough at international level
Root - Being constantly mucked about in the order
Pietersen - Will probably make a glorious 25 before playing a ridiculous shot at a wide one
Bell - Cannot save the side on his own all the time
Stokes - Really should be a no 7 at best at this stage of his career
Prior - woeful run of form
Broad - Not living up to potential with the bat
Swann - Used to be useful, now bats like a drunk no 11
Anderson - walking wicket
Panesar - walking wicket
I wouldn't back us to keep out the Barnt Green 2nd 11 bowling with a tennis ball at one stump. (There. Prove me wrong England)
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Well the Aussies have finally had enough and how we bat now may decide the series one way or the other.
It's a flat pitch but it's time to stand up, something we haven't done for a while.
4 dropped catches, 2 missed run outs and a wicket off a no ball - pretty shite all in all.
Graeme Swann has now been humiliated in two Test Matches.
Absolutely, no way can he play in Perth.
Totally agree on Swann, he bowled well at Lords, but besides that was average in the summer, now looks completely innocuous against their right handers and seems unable to do anything about them attacking him.
I'd also suggest as excellent a bowler as he's been, that Anderson should miss Perth. I don't know whether he's carrying a knock or is just plain exhausted, but he's looked a shadow of the bowler he's been the last few years.
Perth is going to be quick and bouncy, so I don't see the point in playing Bresnan either. I'd go with a bowling attack of Broad, Finn, Rankin and Panesar (who bowled much better than Swann despite the figures).
I'll wait until Stokes bats to see if he warrants a place in the team
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Johnson has looked more threatening in an over and a half than our seamers did in the 80 odd they bowled
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And the procession begins
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I know that was a quick ball, but for Cook to miss it by that much is pretty pathetic
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Swann came out with that tweet about fair weather fans after the first test.
To me it looks like these are a bunch of fair weather cricketers. The slightest challenge and they go missing.
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Well that's what 2 days chasing leather, the inevitable scoreboard pressure that it brings and 150 kph bowling does to you.
I fear this could get ugly now, we won't just get beaten, we'll get humiliated.
The Aussies in the office have that air of just knowing that they're going to win this series after today, it's really just about by how many. I can tell they are reigning it in with me though - it's almost turning to pity already.
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I'm starting to think that only weather or a glut of Australian injuries can save us from 5-0 in this series. We look completely shot.
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Well who saw that coming?
We'll lose this one more heavily than the last one.
Watching the bowling this morning was painful. Spinners getting whacked and seamers all unthreatening dibbly dobbly. Anderson especially looks shot.
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It reminds me a lot of 06/07.
I know Australia were a great side back then but we look equally hopeless and shambolic as back then as well.
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Well that's what 2 days chasing leather, the inevitable scoreboard pressure that it brings and 150 kph bowling does to you.
I fear this could get ugly now, we won't just get beaten, we'll get humiliated.
The Aussies in the office have that air of just knowing that they're going to win this series after today, it's really just about by how many. I can tell they are reigning it in with me though - it's almost turning to pity already.
There was no scoreboard pressure after the first innings at Brisbane though, and we still folded faster than a poker player holding 7,2
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It reminds me a lot of 06/07.
I know Australia were a great side back then but we look equally hopeless and shambolic as back then as well.
This is much much worse. That Aussie side is probably the best team to have played the game and were hell bent on revenge after 05. This Aussie team has a batting line up which has consistently failed over the last 18 months.
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Lyon coming on. Time for our batsmen to get completely bogged down and back themselves into a corner then play a poor shot against him.
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Cook seemed looking to play it to leg, but played the wrong line. Apart from that, nothing too alarming out there for the batters.
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That's right and they have the X factor now in Johnson and Clarke.
We've had the X factor in England the with Swann on dusty pitches and Bell with the bat.
Bottom line is though, if you field as poorly as we did in the 1st innings, where you effectively have to create 16 chances to take 9 wickets, you're gonna struggle to beat Bangladesh let alone Australia in Australia.
The real damage has been done in the last 20 minutes of last night and the first 40 minutes this morning.
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That's right and they have the X factor now in Johnson and Clarke.
We've had the X factor in England the with Swann on dusty pitches and Bell with the bat.
Bottom line is though, if you field as poorly as we did in the 1st innings, where you effectively have to create 16 chances to take 9 wickets, you're gonna struggle to beat Bangladesh let alone Australia in Australia.
The real damage has been done in the last 20 minutes of last night and the first 40 minutes this morning.
I agree that those have been the key periods of the game so far.
The problem I've got is that under Cook, when the opposition gets on top with the bat, we seem too quick to just basically accept our fate. It happened twice in the summer at Old Trafford and the Oval aswell.
Today for instance, why wasn't broad given a 5 over spell where he was told to bowl at their heads? Why did Swann insist on bowling consistently round the wicket at the right handers, basically nulifying the chance of taking a wicket and at the same time allowing easy singles?
We are too formulaic in the field and there appears to be no plan b
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Root doesn't fill me with much confidence. Playing back constantly to balls he should be forward to.
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Agreed, we gave Australia so many easy runs this morning that we didn't build any pressure and gave them back the momentum.
The likes of Clarke and especially Haddin thrive in those circumstances. We needed to go hard and look for an early breakthrough thus creating pressure.
We just looked flat and the game went away from us very quickly. It was an all-round poor effort today it really was and one I don't think we'll recover from, possibly in the entire series. As pivotal a day and the 5th day at Adelaide proved to be in 06/07.
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I can see the urn being lost before Christmas...
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This is an average at best Aussie side, but even they constantly keep the scoreboard ticking and don't get bogged down. Whereas our batsmen just turtle at the slightest pressure.
The bowlers the difference?
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I'm starting to think that only weather or a glut of Australian injuries can save us from 5-0 in this series. We look completely shot.
I see blowers has tipped a 5-0 Aussie win too - we look a poor side and desperately need to hang on here for a draw - Perth next and you would have to fancy the Aussies to go 2-0 up in all honesty at Perth.
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Not looking good for England, had Australia reviewed the last ball of the innings then things would be considerably worse. I get the impression that halfway through the first day, Cook decided to try to avoid defeat rather than going all out to win. Pressure starting to tell maybe? Fair to say, if you lose this one you won't be able to deal with the Aussie attack in Perth and it's series over
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If we somehow get home with the urn it will have been a hell of a turnaround. We've been as poor in these first 2 tests as they were in the summer.
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This is beginning to remind me of the debacle that was 2006/2007.
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Right well that day couldn't have gone much worse. However this isn't something that's happened overnight, our team has been in decline for a fair while now. The batsmen have consistently failed as a unit for a long period of time and we are completely swamped by negative thinking. Look at Australia how did they get into the position they did today? Clarke and Haddin played positively, whereas as soon as our batsmen go in they did in and go nowhere. I've said it for a while to be a successful side you need to be scoring at over 3 an over on a consistent basis. That way you put pressure on the opposition bowlers and they can't just keep running in with no fear of being dispatched. We've allowed Johnson to get his confidence up, we've allowed Lyon to look dangerous. As for our players -
Cook - Clarke 2 centuries in 3 innings, and Cook hasn't made 100 runs in 3 innings.
Carberry - Dreadful fielding, doing ok with the bat but hardly a long term selection.
Root - Promising young player messed about through panicked thinking(mainly).
KP - Not contributing consistently enough at all.
Bell - Only batsmen performing consistently.
Number 6 - Seems a complete lottery at the moment, but Bairstow has had plenty of opportunity and failed. Stokes I think long term will be a good options.
Prior- Completely shot as a batsmen, and glove work has gone downhill.
Broad - Bowling pretty well and one of the few senior players showing fight. Needs to keep up with his aggressive batting.
Swann - Looks like he's gone over the hill, pretty useless with the ball and rubbish with the bat.
3rd bowler - Seems to interchange, but Tremlett is shot, Bresnan is steady. The bowler they should be focussing on is Finn and getting his confidence up. If we got the team set up correctly then he could be our Johnson. You just tell Finn to bowl fast and aggressive for 4 over spells.
Anderson - Since Trent Bridge he has been pretty useless to be honest. He's been talked up and I don't know if it's gone to his head but he's not the same bowler he was.
I'm afraid questions have to be asked of Flower, because this negativity has to come from somewhere and it hasn't been addressed. As for Gooch well fuck knows what he's done to keep his job.
We need a complete change in attitude and approach and who knows we may yet dig out this game but it'll take a complete shift from what we've seen for a while now from England.
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Agreed and the 3-0 flattered us and have made the players andmanagement complacent. You only had to look at the pre tour comments to see that
Without putting the cart before the horse, I can see this tour bringing an end tote international careers of a few, Swann and Prior and maybe Anderson and Pietersen too.
Even before the series I'd retry much conceded Perth, given our record there and their attack. Adelaide was meant to be the Test England got into the series at. Lose here and 5-0 is deffinetley on the cards.
We look lost.
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The commentators mentioned that having been in the field for so long that it affected Cook's batting. If that's the case, should Anderson be captain with Cook just offering advice when sort after?
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Agreed and the 3-0 flattered us
No it didn't.
Without a couple of freakish last wicket Aussie stands that 3-0 would have looked even more emphatic.
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3-0 didn't necessarily flatter us, but it did cover up some serious flaws with our game which are being exposed now.
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Terrible rate of scoring to add to it all, the way we bat we are going to have to bat 150 overs just to avoid the follow on, the defensiveness of this side is pathetic.
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Terrible rate of scoring to add to it all, the way we bat we are going to have to bat 150 overs just to avoid the follow on, the defensiveness of this side is pathetic.
Indeed, our run rate is shocking and puts needless pressure on ourselves - need to rethink the attitude .
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Gooch has to go, Slow scoring and technically poor from the batters....what's Lara and Tendulkar doing these days ;)
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I said in the summer that I think Flower was getting the end of his time, I got a few querying responses at the time on here but I still think I was right at the time. There is something wrong with the squad and, whilst he was the right coach when he started, I think it's down to Flower and Gooch. I'd look to replace both as soon as this series finishes. Flower would go with thanks for making us competitive and starting the process, Gooch would just go. if they stay I think it will have a negative effect on us long term as I can only see the current limitations in our approach being exploited more and more.
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Gooch has to go, Slow scoring and technically poor from the batters....what's Lara and Tendulkar doing these days ;)
That's the thing for me. Despite the batsmen being poor for a good couple of years, there has been very little criticism about it in the media, for the batsmen and absolutely no criticism of Gooch. They are far too complacent and negative in their mindset.
This Aussie batting line up is by no means a good one, but they take the game to the opposition. Look at the way they get after our spinners, whilst we obviously view Lyon as the second coming of Shane Warne the ridiculous respect we show him.
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I think every coaching regime comes to the end of its shelf life and our ongoing decline suggests that's what happening to us. Flower has done great things for English cricket, but we need a bolder approach now and to be a lot more aggressive. I'm not talking about the end of yesterday as I don't blame Carberry and Root for digging in, but we have to attack the opposition bowlers to shift the pressure onto them.
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I wonder if the appointment of Ashley Giles to the shorter forms of the game was a continuance plan i.e. giving him some involvement and once the time was right, bring him in to replace Flower?
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Maybe but I'm not sure whether he's going to give us the much needed shift in emphasis to being more aggressive.
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I wonder if the appointment of Ashley Giles to the shorter forms of the game was a continuance plan i.e. giving him some involvement and once the time was right, bring him in to replace Flower?
I think flower will walk away after this series , he has done a great job but too many of our team are past their best now.
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I'm not sure it's necessarily the team being past their best. There's no real reason why Anderson, Cook, KP, Prior should have started going downhill in terms of age. They should have a few or many years left at the top of the game, the only one who's really getting on is Swann. I think the coaching set up needs to change and we need a fresh more aggressive approach. If you look at Australia, they mainly have the same players they had in the summer but now Lehmann has had some time to get his ideas across those players are really improving. They look confident and they have belief. Flower did great things for England but I think we've been worked out now, and a new approach is needed.
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I think we're also going into a phase of transition. We have a lot of young players coming through - Root and Stokes from the current line-up but a number of others who have been involved in the one-dayers.
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I think we're also going into a phase of transition. We have a lot of young players coming through - Root and Stokes from the current line-up but a number of others who have been involved in the one-dayers.
I think Buttler for Prior will happen very soon unless Prior sorts himself out, his game has abandoned him this year, not just with the bat but his keeping has become suspect as well.
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Boycott says there is (sic) more brains in a chocolate mouse, and grammar aside, it is hard to disagree with the old curmudgeon.
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Pietersen now. Moronic.
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That's all too predictable the way Pietersen got out. What on earth is he doing charging down the pitch at the bowler?
I wouldnt worry about it though KP. Gooch will probably say how well you're doing.
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The mind boggles the way our batsmen contrive to get themselves out. It's like giving the opposition an extra world class bowler in their team.
If you could put "Stupidity" in the "How Out" column of the scoresheet, stupidity would be up there with the top wicket takers vs. England.
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I wonder if the appointment of Ashley Giles to the shorter forms of the game was a continuance plan i.e. giving him some involvement and once the time was right, bring him in to replace Flower?
I think flower will walk away after this series , he has done a great job but too many of our team are past their best now.
It's going to be a real shame that, considering the excellent job Flowers done, that at the forefront of many minds is going to be this humiliating series. (If this is his last series)
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Played, Carbs.
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Yeah the time has come for some wholesale changes.
How many times have we found ourselves 3 down for not many recently. It's virtually every innings.
I'd say Flower will go at the end of the series and if Gooch isn't already on his way attheend of this series then you wonder what he'd have to do to get sacked - we've been appalling with the bat for ages now.
We show no bottle for a fight with Swann and Pietersen the worst offenders. Swann especially with his 'diary' and 'fair weather fans' comment tells us a lot about the attitude.
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Bloody hell. Ian Bell has hit two sixes already.
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Bloody hell. Ian Bell has hit two sixes already.
It makes me nervous. When an Aussie does that, you know it's clearing the rope. But England are just not six hitters and you know it'll end badly...
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Bloody hell. Ian Bell has hit two sixes already.
It makes me nervous. When an Aussie does that, you know it's clearing the rope. But England are just not six hitters and you know it'll end badly...
It's probably the first time in the series one of our batsmen has actually come out and refused to be bullied (for want of a better word) by the Australian's.
It's completely different to the way that Root played. Root just batted himself into a bunker and a shot like that was inevitable
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Well done England. Always a good idea to just allow Watson to bowl maiden after maiden, putting more and more pressure on yourself.
I'm going to bed. These gutless wankers deserve no more of my time.
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This is an absolute belter of a wicket too.
The batsmen and batting coaches should be embarrassed quite frankly.
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I just hope some of the commentators on Sky call time on some of their 'mates' in the England set up here.
This is just embarrassing and someone needs to either lose their place or lose their job.
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The slaughter continues unabated.
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Prior has 1 innings to keep his place, we are going to lose this series 4 or 5 nil
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Not much sign of you rubbing our classless, dirty Aussie noses in the dirt so far eh Eastie? :D
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Not much sign of you rubbing our classless, dirty Aussie noses in the dirt so far eh Eastie? :D
Wombat you old rascal - may I congratulate you on your imminent regaining of the ashes - your boys have outplayed us in every department and dominated .
Not too keen on your teams attitude but no doubting their quality - enjoy your good times for they won't last ;)
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Moment of the night for me was boycotts eruption telling people listening the ashes are gone go to bed and sleep after pieterson was out and his raucous ' get Him out the team ' jibe .
We needed men to stand up and be counted and sadly we got a load of rubbish from most .
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Absolute rubbish of the lowest order from the ''batsmen''. Root proved he shouldn't have been a 3. He is too easy to get on top of and he gets the team into a mire, he needs to be down at 6 where the match pressure may not be so tough and the ball is older and bowlers more tired. Bell once again THE batsmen for England now. He puts the glory boys of Cook and Pietersen to shame.
KP, what can I say? He's averaging around 30 this year, which is shit, he needs a spell out of the side, he's not the KP of old. The lower order we're pathetic, completely bullied by pace, none showed any heart for the fight.
Prior, pack your gloves kid.
The only batter to show any aggression got his rewards, it's not rocket science. Carberry's dismissal was of his own making. 5 overs of maidens and he panicked when are we going to learn to keep the board ticking over.
Overall an appalling display, we will lose this test by a record margin and the ashes 4 or 5 -0. The writing was on the wall The New Zealand away series where a defeat would have been well deserved. The ashes in the summer could have been 2-2 and we didn't really perform after the second test. We haven't been proactive enough with the selection policy, the 5th test being a perfect example with Woakes and that Pie chucker of a spinner brought in for 1 game when they had no chance of making the ashes squad over here, what was the point in that?
Gooch and Flower your time is up and can someone get stuck into that selfish prick Pietersen please, I can't be bothered. Really pissed off.
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There are 70 test centuries in this England side and we can't bloody make 200?
There is never a showing so poor as this without something going on behind the scenes, it's not like there is a gulf in class between the two sides, there is something else.
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Terrible rate of scoring to add to it all, the way we bat we are going to have to bat 150 overs just to avoid the follow on, the defensiveness of this side is pathetic.
Is it time to question Cook's captaincy as well. Seems to run out of ideas very quickly when things start going against us and has been shown up by McCullum and Clarke over the past year.
Complete lack of fight and application again from England. Too many have become too comfortable.
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Absolute rubbish of the lowest order from the ''batsmen''. Root proved he shouldn't have been a 3. He is too easy to get on top of and he gets the team into a mire, he needs to be down at 6 where the match pressure may not be so tough and the ball is older and bowlers more tired. Bell once again THE batsmen for England now. He puts the glory boys of Cook and Pietersen to shame.
KP, what can I say? He's averaging around 30 this year, which is shit, he needs a spell out of the side, he's not the KP of old. The lower order we're pathetic, completely bullied by pace, none showed any heart for the fight.
Prior, pack your gloves kid.
The only batter to show any aggression got his rewards, it's not rocket science. Carberry's dismissal was of his own making. 5 overs of maidens and he panicked when are we going to learn to keep the board ticking over.
Overall an appalling display, we will lose this test by a record margin and the ashes 4 or 5 -0. The writing was on the wall The New Zealand away series where a defeat would have been well deserved. The ashes in the summer could have been 2-2 and we didn't really perform after the second test. We haven't been proactive enough with the selection policy, the 5th test being a perfect example with Woakes and that Pie chucker of a spinner brought in for 1 game when they had no chance of making the ashes squad over here, what was the point in that?
Gooch and Flower your time is up and can someone get stuck into that selfish prick Pietersen please, I can't be bothered. Really pissed off.
I wouldn't be surprised to see kp pack in test cricket after this series - I know he said he will play on but he looks to have lost the desire to me , cook is woefully off form and root also looks off form .
Only bell can be proud of his batting and prior is approaching the end as is swann.
The ashes for me are lost and I expect us to get blown away in Perth -we will need to rebuild next summer and look to the future - we have had a great team and great times but those days are gone - too many players living on reputation alone now.
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Right well I'll leave Carberry who did well and Bell who was excellent out of this. However if this ends up being 5-0 and that looks very likely at the moment, it will be the worse series result in English history given the position that we were supposed to be in coming into this series. This is like the 90s at it's worst, but this is worse because we've got talented players now. Obviously it's difficult to make wholesale changes in the middle of the tour, but the coaching set up has to go at the end of the series. It's a shame for Flower, but Gooch has been fucking useless. I'd call up Buttler or Kieswetter immediately as Prior has to be dropped, he's been terrible since May. Panesar needs to come in for Swann, because Swann has been fucking useless and for all his failings at least Monty showed some guts when he came out to bat unlike Swann. I like Stokes, but it's unfair to expect him to come in at number 6 with the way the batsmen are playing at the moment. I'd consider putting Ballance in for KP given the nature of KP's dismissals. I'd consider dropping Anderson as he's been useless as the leader of the attack since Trent Bridge.
England have prided themselves on creating a close-knit set ups but it's proving counter productive now. We need a complete change in every aspect of our game. The Ashes are pretty much gone and this needs to be a fresh start.
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Please can Bell come in at 3 now, he's our best batsman by a huge margin at the moment and there's no point in him being stranded with an increasingly long tail (From 5-11 we average 8 during this series....)
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Also Stokes at 6 in a test match ;D :'(. He will develop well as a bowler I think and contribute decent runs from time to time but he should no way be in a side as a 6.
I know this will sound like hindsight and excuse making now that we are/will be 2-0 down but who agreed to playing back to back ashes? We've been playing since maybe December last year almost non stop test matches and maybe some players are suffering from burn out on the treadmill? Or am I clutching at straws.
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two quick wins and were right back in it
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Panesar showed more balls batting than most of the top order and he is bowling better than swann.
Prior has failed enough times - time for a change.
Pieterson is a loose cannon - good on his day but his day is all too rare
Root is not good enough on present form to bat 3.
Bell needs to bat 3 as he's stranded by the rest getting out when he bats 5.
Anderson is living on reputation - drop him .
Swann - see Anderson .
Cook needs to find some uns quickly - he is not doing enough.
Bell, carberry, panesar, broad , stokes can be absolved from blame - the other 6 need to take a bloody good look at themselves as does gooch .
I like Andy flower but I think he's already decided to go after this series and has lost that motivation.
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The most worrying thing to me is the form of Cook. This has been going on for a while now, and I'd hate it to be the captain's curse affecting him because he might not actually be our best captain, but he's our best batsman when on form I think.
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We needed men to stand up and be counted and sadly we got a load of rubbish from most .
We need Boycott.
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The most worrying thing to me is the form of Cook. This has been going on for a while now, and I'd hate it to be the captain's curse affecting him because he might not actually be our best captain, but he's our best batsman when on form I think.
Who could take over as captain though from Cook? Bell doesn't seem captain material. KP/Swann/Anderson/Prior are all lucky to be in the side.
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We needed men to stand up and be counted and sadly we got a load of rubbish from most .
We need Boycott.
He'd bat the remaining overs out on his own.
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Also Stokes at 6 in a test match ;D :'(. He will develop well as a bowler I think and contribute decent runs from time to time but he should no way be in a side as a 6.
I know this will sound like hindsight and excuse making now that we are/will be 2-0 down but who agreed to playing back to back ashes? We've been playing since maybe December last year almost non stop test matches and maybe some players are suffering from burn out on the treadmill? Or am I clutching at straws.
I personally think there is something in that train of thought. The only games most of them play are in the glare of the international spotlight and I think it's taking it's toll on some of them.
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two quick wins and were right back in it
Very optimistic John!! Think Bangladesh would have more chance of getting a win than we do at the moment!
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I'm really pleased for Bell, Carberry looks to be made of the right stuff, Broad and Cook I think still are able to do a job. But the rest of the team just seems so rotten.
I was saying to an Aussie mate, that whenever an England team achieves something a terminal complacency sets in and they pretty much fall to a level below they were before their success. Look what happened to the team of 2005. Look at how we played after winning in India - NZ should have beaten us, and in the summer Ashes we were creaking at the seams.
If anything, this current lot is playing worse than Flintoff's rabble in 06/07 - and look at the fallout after that series. Back then we even managed to get past 200.
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BTW Johnson was looking down on pace and not so threatening in the morning session. Root and Carberry had few problems, and he even started looking slightly ragged.
Then our batsmen threw their wickets away and exposed the tail. But all these headlines "Johnson blows England away" don't really tell the story - Johnson blew our tail away, but the top order, Cook aside, seemed quite comfortable.
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In fairness, Johnson did bowl well. So credit to him.
What is galling is the lack of stomach for battle in our middle order. Australia must be pissing themselves laughing at how easy it is for them.
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The most worrying thing to me is the form of Cook. This has been going on for a while now, and I'd hate it to be the captain's curse affecting him because he might not actually be our best captain, but he's our best batsman when on form I think.
The ex-pro's often talk about how hard is to open the batting as a Captain when you've been in the field for so long trying to put plans in place to take wickets. Strauss struggled with this towards the end too. After this series I would be tempted to make Anderson captain and let Cook just focus on his batting.
Carberry deserves a chance and I would still move Bell up to 3. I would look to freshen the middle order up a little whilst trying to not throw the baby away with the bathwater. Probably bring in Buttler for Prior. Maybe give Stokes a chance to see if he can be a genuine all-rounder.
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The most worrying thing to me is the form of Cook. This has been going on for a while now, and I'd hate it to be the captain's curse affecting him because he might not actually be our best captain, but he's our best batsman when on form I think.
The ex-pro's often talk about how hard is to open the batting as a Captain when you've been in the field for so long trying to put plans in place to take wickets. Strauss struggled with this towards the end too. After this series I would be tempted to make Anderson captain and let Cook just focus on his batting.
Carberry deserves a chance and I would still move Bell up to 3. I would look to freshen the middle order up a little whilst trying to not throw the baby away with the bathwater. Probably bring in Buttler for Prior. Maybe give Stokes a chance to see if he can be a genuine all-rounder.
I'd give them maybe one last chance but if the ashes are lost in test 3 them make a few changes.
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The most worrying thing to me is the form of Cook. This has been going on for a while now, and I'd hate it to be the captain's curse affecting him because he might not actually be our best captain, but he's our best batsman when on form I think.
The ex-pro's often talk about how hard is to open the batting as a Captain when you've been in the field for so long trying to put plans in place to take wickets. Strauss struggled with this towards the end too. After this series I would be tempted to make Anderson captain and let Cook just focus on his batting.
Carberry deserves a chance and I would still move Bell up to 3. I would look to freshen the middle order up a little whilst trying to not throw the baby away with the bathwater. Probably bring in Buttler for Prior. Maybe give Stokes a chance to see if he can be a genuine all-rounder.
I'd give them maybe one last chance but if the ashes are lost in test 3 them make a few changes.
I wouldn't expose anymore young newcomers into this side over there. The atmosphere and team mentality isn't a good environment to grow into. Let the ''old'' guard disgrace themselves for the rest of the series and bed new players next year.
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Both Swann and Prior should be taken out for Perth, for everyone's sake.
They look so off the pace it's embarrassing.
After th.e tour if it ends up like I think it will then Andrson, Pietersen and Flower/Gooch can go too. It was great while it lasted but those times have gone.
The manner of which we lost in Brisbane and so far here has been as poor as I've ever seen from England, and that really is saying something.
If there's not wholesale changes after this then there never will be.
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Both Swann and Prior should be taken out for Perth, for everyone's sake.
They look so off the pace it's embarrassing.
After th.e tour if it ends up like I think it will then Andrson, Pietersen and Flower/Gooch can go too. It was great while it lasted but those times have gone.
The manner of which we lost in Brisbane and so far here has been as poor as I've ever seen from England, and that really is saying something.
If there's not wholesale changes after this then there never will be.
I thought the Aussies would push us closer but this is embarrassing - they are thrashing us and we look awful - it's quite shocking how far we have fallen so quickly.
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Gooch out!
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I was amazed Clarke didnt enforce the follow on - it gives us a slight glimmer of hope although it would take a mammoth change in form to get a draw.
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I was amazed Clarke didnt enforce the follow on - it gives us a slight glimmer of hope although it would take a mammoth change in form to get a draw.
Because they didn't want to take the risk of chasing 100-odd on the last day.
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The batting was awful, Root and Pietersen should be ashamed of themselves. Some of them seem to have lost their edge and it does seem we are coming to an end of an era.
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I was amazed Clarke didnt enforce the follow on - it gives us a slight glimmer of hope although it would take a mammoth change in form to get a draw.
Because they didn't want to take the risk of chasing 100-odd on the last day.
For that to happen England would have had to get well over 500 - and the Aussies would have easily chased a 100 or so with 10 wickets - now though it's not beyond possibility to bat the game out although very difficult to do so .
Maybe they are still remembering the time they enforced the follow on and lost under ponting , I certainly expect a quick declaration this morning - if we could bat to tea with one or two down then there is hope - although more likely to be all out well before tea for less than 200 :(
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I was amazed Clarke didnt enforce the follow on - it gives us a slight glimmer of hope although it would take a mammoth change in form to get a draw.
Because they didn't want to take the risk of chasing 100-odd on the last day.
For that to happen England would have had to get well over 500 - and the Aussies would have easily chased a 100 or so with 10 wickets - now though it's not beyond possibility to bat the game out although very difficult to do so .
Maybe they are still remembering the time they enforced the follow on and lost under ponting , I certainly expect a quick declaration this morning - if we could bat to tea with one or two down then there is hope - although more likely to be all out well before tea for less than 200 :(
Shall we just accept that the captain of Australia knows a bit more about cricket than you do?
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Also he wanted to keep the Aussie bowlers fresh.Any captain with 2 1/2 days left would of done the same.
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Agreed, there was 220 overs left in the game and England are batting for about 60 of those over the last 3 innings - and the pitch is wearing a bit now.
With back to back Tests Clarke is just turning the screw, getting loads of overs into our bowlers legs and demoralizing us. This is a hammering in every possible respect.
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I was amazed Clarke didnt enforce the follow on - it gives us a slight glimmer of hope although it would take a mammoth change in form to get a draw.
Because they didn't want to take the risk of chasing 100-odd on the last day.
For that to happen England would have had to get well over 500 - and the Aussies would have easily chased a 100 or so with 10 wickets - now though it's not beyond possibility to bat the game out although very difficult to do so .
Maybe they are still remembering the time they enforced the follow on and lost under ponting , I certainly expect a quick declaration this morning - if we could bat to tea with one or two down then there is hope - although more likely to be all out well before tea for less than 200 :(
Shall we just accept that the captain of Australia knows a bit more about cricket than you do?
Not just me, Botham , boycott, vaughan and even warne - in fact of all the experts not one has said they wouldn't enforce the follow on - im delighted he did - it gives us a slight chance of saving the test .
Do you really think Australia wouldn't fancy chasing 100 to win on this pitch ?
Clarke has given us a sniff of a chance - long shot maybe but if we save this test he will be slaughtered for it by the Aussie fans and media .
Maybe winning ashes heroes like Botham , vaughan, boycott and warne know a bit more about cricket than a 3 time ashes loser like Clarke ;)
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Maybe we can post a total over 200 today? If not, we go again. :-X
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The Aussies would knock that off in 10 overs.
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Maybe we can post a total over 200 today? If not, we go again. :-X
Would be nice to see our batsmen post some decent scores - long overdue but I won't hold my breath - more likely we collapse for less than 200 :(
A solid opening stand would be nice for starters.
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My predictions
Cook to fall playing away from his body, poor footwork
Carberry to get a Jaffa
Root to face nearly 100 balls for his 20 and go to a sharp catch in the slips
Pietersen to get out with a ridiculous one day shot off Lyon
Bell LBW
Stokes beaten for pace LBW
Prior edge to keeper
Broad to make a quick fire 20-30 before falling in the deep
Swann blown away by pace
Anderson caught fending off a short ball
Panesar to take more hits and get cleaned out for 5
215 all out
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My predictions
Cook to fall playing away from his body, poor footwork
Carberry to get a Jaffa
Root to face nearly 100 balls for his 20 and go to a sharp catch in the slips
Pietersen to get out with a ridiculous one day shot off Lyon
Bell LBW
Stokes beaten for pace LBW
Prior edge to keeper
Broad to make a quick fire 20-30 before falling in the deep
Swann blown away by pace
Anderson caught fending off a short ball
Panesar to take more hits and get cleaned out for 5
215 all out
No way - at least one will be not out - we won't lose 11 wickets :)
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My predictions
Cook to fall playing away from his body, poor footwork
Carberry to get a Jaffa
Root to face nearly 100 balls for his 20 and go to a sharp catch in the slips
Pietersen to get out with a ridiculous one day shot off Lyon
Bell LBW
Stokes beaten for pace LBW
Prior edge to keeper
Broad to make a quick fire 20-30 before falling in the deep
Swann blown away by pace
Anderson caught fending off a short ball
Panesar to take more hits and get cleaned out for 5
215 all out
No way - at least one will be not out - we won't lose 11 wickets :)
LOL getting carried away in my cricket misery, Swann blown away by pace but surviving a dropped catch to remain unbeaten on 13.
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One of that 11 will fly home before batting.
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Aussies have declared overnight.
So that's bat 2 days for the draw, or 531 runs for the win.
ETA - I say 'overnight' but cricinfo reckon he did it 10 minutes before play, having seen the weather forecast. Sly dog.
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What a fuckin muppet
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Cook gone. Top edged hook to fine leg. Johnson gets another.
Jesus wept.
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Cook gone and i'm off to bed, complete and utter waste of my time watching this shit.
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We need to bat for two days. Cook swats at a bouncer. Pathetic.
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Great leadership skills there
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Cook needs to be dropped,but.they won't.
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To be fair if they dropped all those who deserved it, they would need people to fly over there. Time for the likes of Root to show they can cope with real pressure and Pietersen and Prior to fecking perform or go forth and multiply
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To be fair if they dropped all those who deserved it, they would need people to fly over there. Time for the likes of Root to show they can cope with real pressure and Pietersen and Prior to fecking perform or go forth and multiply
Whats the point if your captain looks so scared when batting.There are so many holes in his batting it's getting embarrassing.
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Mary mother of god, what was Cook thinking?
The Sky commentary was baffling, no criticism at all and saying it was genius from Johnson?!? Are they really that matey with the England team that they can't tell it like it is?
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You can't drop the captain, not in the Ashes. If we do that, Andy Flower may as well walk into the Aussie dressing room waving a white flag, with his trousers round his ankles and ask to be buggered senseless.
Cook has got to tough it out. The series has almost certainly gone so he needs to stick around and help identify who needs replacing and who we should stick by. And the rest of them - especially Carberry, Root, Stokes - should look on this as an opportunity to cement a place for the foreseeable future. Prior, on the other hand, is very much in the last chance saloon. I wish we'd taken a proper keeper as back-up; I'm not sure Buttler is ready yet as either a Test batsman or keeper.
ETA - Or Bairstow even. Who is actually on the tour. Doh.
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It worked in 81.
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This pitch is as flat as a pancake. To get bowled out for less than 200 is unbe-fucking-lievable.
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It worked in 81.
Yes, and if we had a genius like Brearley waiting in the wings I'd agree with you. But sadly we don't. Who are the alternatives? Bell? KP? Prior?
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It worked in 81.
That's not quite true is it, the captain wasn't dropped just relieved of his duties!!!!
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It worked in 81.
Yes, and if we had a genius like Brearley waiting in the wings I'd agree with you. But sadly we don't. Who are the alternatives? Bell? KP? Prior?
Needs to be somebody from outside the squad just like 81.Anyway it isn't going to happen but Gooch must go at the end of this tour.
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Fucking disgrace.No other word for it.
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Oh dear,oh dear.....what a fuckin shambles 20-2 another poor shot.
Will the real KP stand up!
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Weve had a great run. We need to keep cool heads. Call up Nick Compton for a start though.
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I have got 1 bottle left to drink thank god.
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The way the England set up works is that anyone who took over the captaincy from Cook would almost certainly use the same strategy, just as when Cook took over from Strauss. It's the strategy that needs changing and, should Flower quit after this tour, it may well do. Although if Giles is the man to replace him, I can't really see the overall approach being that different.
Clearly we don't currently have the personnel to post massive first innings scores, which is what England's method has been based solely around for some time now. And a four man bowling attack isn't cutting the mustard either so they really are between a rock and a hard place.
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But the batting has been a problem for long enough.Its not like it has happened overnight.I agree about the four man bowling attack.
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To be fair if they dropped all those who deserved it, they would need people to fly over there. Time for the likes of Root to show they can cope with real pressure and Pietersen and Prior to fecking perform or go forth and multiply
Whats the point if your captain looks so scared when batting.There are so many holes in his batting it's getting embarrassing.
They have got at him and it has had an effect I think. Carberry again there was a terrible stroke in this situation. Put a couple of quid on him as top scorer, it is looking good at the minute lol
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It worked in 81.
Yes, and if we had a genius like Brearley waiting in the wings I'd agree with you. But sadly we don't. Who are the alternatives? Bell? KP? Prior?
Needs to be somebody from outside the squad just like 81.Anyway it isn't going to happen but Gooch must go at the end of this tour.
Just thinking about that, you'd have to say a replacement would have to be a current county captain, almost certainly from Division 1. So that means:
Durham - Paul Collingwood (retired from internationals)
Lancs - Glen Chapple (40 years old)
Middlesex - Chris Rogers (Aussie)
Northants - Alex Wakely
Notts - Chris Read (35 years old)
Somerset - Marcus Trescothick (retired from internationals / 38 years old)
Sussex - Ed Joyce (now Irish again)
Warwicks - Jim Troughton (34 years old)
Yorkshire - Andrew Gale
So four are eligible and of those two have been tried and discarded at international level. Which leaves Alex Wakely, who has been playing in Div 2 most of his career and averages less than 30 with the bat, and Andrew Gale.
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We'll get Bears to sack Troughton and then appoint Varun Chopra as captain!!!!
Whom i rate as a captain after watching him closely last season. Very positive.
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It worked in 81.
Yes, and if we had a genius like Brearley waiting in the wings I'd agree with you. But sadly we don't. Who are the alternatives? Bell? KP? Prior?
Needs to be somebody from outside the squad just like 81.Anyway it isn't going to happen but Gooch must go at the end of this tour.
Just thinking about that, you'd have to say a replacement would have to be a current county captain, almost certainly from Division 1. So that means:
Durham - Paul Collingwood (retired from internationals)
Lancs - Glen Chapple (40 years old)
Middlesex - Chris Rogers (Aussie)
Northants - Alex Wakely
Notts - Chris Read (35 years old)
Somerset - Marcus Trescothick (retired from internationals / 38 years old)
Sussex - Ed Joyce (now Irish again)
Warwicks - Jim Troughton (34 years old)
Yorkshire - Andrew Gale
So four are eligible and of those two have been tried and discarded at international level. Which leaves Alex Wakely, who has been playing in Div 2 most of his career and averages less than 30 with the bat, and Andrew Gale.
Mike Brearley was 40 in 1981,age isn't a problem.
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We'll get Bears to sack Troughton and then appoint Varun Chopra as captain!!!!
Whom i rate as a captain after watching him closely last season. Very positive.
Chopra is not a bad long term shout actually, but he needs to a) be county captain, and b) get into the Test side first. I think he was on the Lions tour this winter and had a bit of a mare. He can bat long, which is good, and is an excellent slipper too, but at the moment he tends to be a bit feast or famine. Time on his side though.
The problem for him may be that when Troughton calls it a day Ian Bell could well have retired from Tests and he's said he'd love to captain Warwicks in the twilight of his career.
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Mike Brearley was 40 in 1981,age isn't a problem.
It's not going to happen.
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Just put a few quid on Root getting over 32, what a twit
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Johnson coming back on. Here we goo.
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keep cool coolerking
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On the last tour to Australia I remember thinking what a lovely ground Adelaide was. It looks like a concrete shithole now.
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Just put a few quid on Root getting over 32, what a twit
Must be getting nervous by now....26
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Just put a few quid on Root getting over 32, what a twit
Must be getting nervous by now....26
I fell asleep lol, the winnings will just about buy me a beer lol.
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Come on Root, make me a few more quid, had good day on Derby and then Spuds
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Just put a few quid on Root getting over 32, what a twit
Must be getting nervous by now....26
I fell asleep lol, the winnings will just about buy me a beer lol.
Well thats it he has his 32...go on and put a 1 in front of it!!!
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Fcuk this i'm off to bed...at least this pair have tried to put some runs together but i need some kip to be fit and well for the big game later today
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On the last tour to Australia I remember thinking what a lovely ground Adelaide was. It looks like a concrete shithole now.
It's really nice actually hilts. They've retained the hill, the old scoreboard and the Cypress trees at the northern end as well as upping the capacity to 53,000. Had to be done as both Adelaide aussie rules clubs will be playing home games there from this season on. It's also quite an attractive structure with lots of curves and it sits quite nicely in the surrounding parklands
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They have to keep the hill though now. That's the grounds character now which was always something the Adelaide Oval had in abundance.
Without it, it would be just a concrete characterless bowl like the Gabba.
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Can I just take this opportunity to say a big Fuck Off to Shane Watson.
Overrated Gobshite that he is.
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It's really nice actually hilts. They've retained the hill, the old scoreboard and the Cypress trees at the northern end as well as upping the capacity to 53,000. Had to be done as both Adelaide aussie rules clubs will be playing home games there from this season on. It's also quite an attractive structure with lots of curves and it sits quite nicely in the surrounding parklands
Fair play. I suppose, in their defence, it isn't finished yet.
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A bit more fight in this innings but still poor overall- cook looks woeful , root, kp and prior getting a few more runs but still a heavy defeat unless some torrential rain saves us and that's not forecast :(
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Well we will drag it over to another day. It's arduous watchimg at times but i thinl being a Villa fan helps in these situations.
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A bit better today but not much at least KP,Stokes, Broad, Prior showed some fight and bottle and a good innings from Root but he should have gone on and made a 100+
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You all may not agree but this was a very good day for England. They did not capitulate and showed great character all through the 3 sessions to take it into the final day. Remember this was a huge pressure day with absolutely no chance of saving the match never mind winning it. Teams will lesser character would have folded very quickly today. This stout attitude will stand the team in a much better position in the final 3 tests. I can only see improvement from here.
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I'd agree it was a better day but certainly wouldn't describe it as a very good day.
A very good day for me would have seen us at 260-2.
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You're a glass half full guy I'll give you that!
Yeah, much more fight but we still gave wickets away needlessly, Cook , Carberry and Bell.
Nice to see Prior survive and at least we've given the weather a chance to intervene - it won't and England wouldn't deserve it anyway.
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You're a glass half full guy I'll give you that!
Yeah, much more fight but we still gave wickets away needlessly, Cook , Carberry and Bell.
Nice to see Prior survive and at least we've given the weather a chance to intervene - it won't and England wouldn't deserve it anyway.
As boycott would describe it a pudding of a pitch - we gave silly wickets away so it's not a question of glass half full - it was an improvement but certainly wouldn't describe it as a very good day .
Root and kp, got some much needed runs prior and stokes fought and our openers again both went cheaply -
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eastter's look at it in isolation. Huge pressure batted all day and nearly 300 on the board. Normally this would be very good.
OzVilla every wickett lost is careless and unnecessary. Go back to your own playing days (apologies if you are still tapping it) and I bet you hated it every time you were out? It was unnecessary and careless. Clarke and Haddin were careless!
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eastter's look at it in isolation. Huge pressure batted all day and nearly 300 on the board. Normally this would be very good.
OzVilla every wickett lost is careless and unnecessary. Go back to your own playing days (apologies if you are still tapping it) and I bet you hated it every time you were out? It was unnecessary and careless. Clarke and Haddin were careless!
You are an old romantic affers - I love your outlook my friend :)
( when you say nearly 300 it's actually still closer to 200 ;))
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Less of the old please.....there is no need to be factually correct about everything!
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eastter's look at it in isolation. Huge pressure batted all day and nearly 300 on the board. Normally this would be very good.
OzVilla every wickett lost is careless and unnecessary. Go back to your own playing days (apologies if you are still tapping it) and I bet you hated it every time you were out? It was unnecessary and careless. Clarke and Haddin were careless!
That's maybe right but I'd be pretty pissed off if I'd hooked a bouncer in the 2nd over down fine legs throat with 6 sessions to play. It was the wrong shot at the wrong time. We needed Cook to bat long today so to play such an uncontrollable shot so early on was a misjudgement that was surprising coming from such a disciplined batsman.
Carberry in his defense maybe just hit his a little too well and Bell, well I think he felt he had to cream it as it was such a poor delivery, he's done that before with Smith and got himself out.
I see your points regards Root and Prior - much, much better.
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I really am starting to worry about cook- his form has been poor for a while now and I wonder if the captaincy is perhaps hindering him - maybe Warnes criticism of him has affected his confidence but he doesn't seem the same man as a year ago - either as a captain of batsman .
Today was the day for him to stand up and be counted but sadly he threw his wicket away with a reckless shot .
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For a player with such a fantastic record for Test match runs and big hundreds, Cook is a surprisingly one dimensional as a player. Get him on the front foot. Playing down the ground and starve him from his pulling and cutting and suddenly he's a very scratchy player.
The Aussies got their plans spot on to him in the Summer and executed them really well, Harris and Siddle in particular are perfect bowlers for that tight line off stump drag forward type consistency.
Cook's been found out a bit so he needs to work to find a way to compile innings against this sort of high class, disciplined bowling. Confidence is such a massive thing in any sport but especially Cricket.
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Well at least today has a couple of positives, which is a first. Root showed he could play very well at 3, KP showed patience, Stokes showed some grit and there is plenty to work with there. Prior getting some runs is very important as well as being not out over night. We're clearly going to lose, but what we need to do is drag it out as long as possible and hope Broad and Prior in particular can get us some runs to get a bit of confidence in the lower order. We will need a miracle to turn this series around, but at least there is stuff to take out of today. Worryingly Bell, Cook and Carberry all got themselves out unnecessarily.
The problem with Cook is that he is a player who is either in form or not and there is no middle ground. If he is out of form he is shocking and doesn't look like he can do much, if he's in form he's fantastic and immovable. We need to take whatever we can out of this match. As far as selection for Perth I'd go -
Cook(needs to front up)
Carberry(needs to go on when he gets a start)
Root(needs to continue from today)
KP(He's got a couple of 50s now and has to go on)
Bell(play like he did in the first innings)
Stokers(he showed grit and his bowling will be very useful)
Prior(now he has shown something)
Bresnan(adds batting)
Broad(Needs to bowl with aggression and show guts when batting)
Anderson(Needs to start showing he's the leader of the attack)
Finn(We need pace here)
I wouldn't bother with a spinner in Perth, as neither Swann or Panesar have shown a great deal to mean we'd lose much by bowling Root. Swann has been atrocious and shown no guts at all.
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@MichaelVaughan: Plenty of cloud around in Adelaide.... !!!!! Rain is forecast ...... #ashes
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The words 'straws' and 'clutching' come to mind, it'd have to rain pretty much all day to save us, one wicket and the floodgate opens. It may be open already, but at least we've dragged to a fifth. Root's post game interview was very impressive, much like his performance. Whatever happens we need to front up now.
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You'll be pleased to hear it's pissing down and looks set for most of the morning at least :(
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The words 'straws' and 'clutching' come to mind, it'd have to rain pretty much all day to save us, one wicket and the floodgate opens. It may be open already, but at least we've dragged to a fifth. Root's post game interview was very impressive, much like his performance. Whatever happens we need to front up now.
Remember that free George Davis campaigner who dug into the pitch ahead of the last day and sprayed graffiti causing the game to be abandoned in the 70s - we need bumble to do the business with his spade for us :)
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You'll be pleased to hear it's pissing down and looks set for most of the morning at least :(
Pleased - I'm fucking delighted. :D
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@MichaelVaughan: The rain dances in the UK are working....
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I pray it rains, but I think we'll be 2-0 down come Perth. If we're not then fantastic, but we need a massive change to take place whatever happens.
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The current forecast is for rain until around 3pm
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11/2 the draw still.
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That's looking a decent bet at the moment Dave
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The current forecast is for rain until around 3pm
Which won't be enough sadly.
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We would be very lucky to not lose this after our batting. It would make the series interesting though.
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The words 'straws' and 'clutching' come to mind, it'd have to rain pretty much all day to save us, one wicket and the floodgate opens. It may be open already, but at least we've dragged to a fifth. Root's post game interview was very impressive, much like his performance. Whatever happens we need to front up now.
Remember that free George Davis campaigner who dug into the pitch ahead of the last day and sprayed graffiti causing the game to be abandoned in the 70s - we need bumble to do the business with his spade for us :)
I remember them only too well, ruined my day at the cricket with my dad and the younger me hated George David from then on. Innocent or not, as far as I recall he was innocent of the crime he was imprisoned for but guilty of several others.
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The words 'straws' and 'clutching' come to mind, it'd have to rain pretty much all day to save us, one wicket and the floodgate opens. It may be open already, but at least we've dragged to a fifth. Root's post game interview was very impressive, much like his performance. Whatever happens we need to front up now.
Remember that free George Davis campaigner who dug into the pitch ahead of the last day and sprayed graffiti causing the game to be abandoned in the 70s - we need bumble to do the business with his spade for us :)
I remember them only too well, ruined my day at the cricket with my dad and the younger me hated George David from then on. Innocent or not, as far as I recall he was innocent of the crime he was imprisoned for but guilty of several others.
He was released, then 18 months later was caught bang to rights guv robbing a bank.
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Doesn't all this just make the fact that we only batted for 60 odd overs on an absolute belter for the 2nd game running all the more galling.
Yesterday proved that it's still a good pitch and those that applied themselves were able to prosper and that if we keep Australia out there for more than two sessions, suddenly the Johnson factor is much less of a threat.
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For some reason, Gooch and Cook's new master plan of 'hitting the ball upwards' isn't working. Funny that.
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On a day when we need to save wickets the first one falls inside the first over to a ridiculous shot.
Idiots.
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On a day when we need to save wickets the first one falls inside the first over to a ridiculous shot.
Idiots.
It's frustrating, and Broad is no mug (and neither is Prior, but at least it was a considerable knock) and should do better, but the real damage was done in the first innings. It's pathetic.
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That was baffling, I get the impression that the English boys confused positive batting with reckless abandon.
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The current forecast is for rain until around 3pm
What happened there then?
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The current forecast is for rain until around 3pm
What happened there then?
What the forecast thought was rain turned out to be recently hooked cricket balls, raining down from the sky.
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The current forecast is for rain until around 3pm
What happened there then?
Miraculously cleared up. God clearly does move in mysterious ways
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So many players out hooking - no wonder the Aussies are bowling so many short as they know we can't resist the hook - must stop going for it .
On a plus note 5 of our top 7 got half centuries in this test which gives a bit of hope batting wise.
Can't see us getting a win in Perth but to stand a chance we must go with the most apt bowlers in those conditions - jimmy is more a swing and seam bowler and won't be suited to Perth - Finn is a must and I'd be tempted to play rankin too - at the expense of swann and Anderson.
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Well it was good of us to take the rain out of the equation, small positive is at least Prior got some runs. However we need a miracle to retain the Ashes now and I'm tired of the players saying they'll put it right, put up or shut up. Also they're not in any position to give verbals to the Aussies as their performances have been so abject. Terrible tour so far.
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I think this has all come from ignoring our problems when we were winning, and now it's completely unravelled. We have batted to slowly for a while and there isn't the intensity required in our game. A lot of players are living on career averages rather than performances in the last year.
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Problem is as well that Cook is saying the players need to be stand up and be counted, well it starts with the captain Alistair. An aggregate of 4 across two innings is nowhere near acceptable.
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Problem is as well that Cook is saying the players need to be stand up and be counted, well it starts with the captain Alistair. An aggregate of 4 across two innings is nowhere near acceptable.
Yep, it's all well and good to say we are the only people who can change it and next day get out for one for another pathetic shot - time for less talk more action cooky ! And no more hooking !!!!
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We need to throw caution to the wind now and just go for it.
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I'm going through a variety of team selections in my head, but I'd be inclined to leave the batting line up as is. Stokes did decently at number 6 and dropping him would to him no good, he showed good heart in that 28 he scored. Other than that, if we add another batsmen it'll just be negative again. We have to force a result now, so I'd bring in Finn for Panesar and maybe even Bresnan for Swann.
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I'm going through a variety of team selections in my head, but I'd be inclined to leave the batting line up as is. Stokes did decently at number 6 and dropping him would to him no good, he showed good heart in that 28 he scored. Other than that, if we add another batsmen it'll just be negative again. We have to force a result now, so I'd bring in Finn for Panesar and maybe even Bresnan for Swann.
Finn for swann and rankin for Anderson - rankin will get far more from the Perth pitch than jimmy would - it won't swing or seam hardly but it will have plenty of bounce and suit taller pace bowlers - I'd go with a pace attack of Finn, rankin, broad and stokes with panesar as the spin option .
This pitch is made for bowlers like finn and rankin and jimmy is off form as it is .
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It will swing I expect, Perth always has a strong cross breeze and it's what cause Johnson to get some really dangerous swing the last time we toured. I don't think we should fall into the trap of just playing tall bowlers. Anderson should get given another chance, but his performances since Trent Bridge are not good enough.
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It will swing I expect, Perth always has a strong cross breeze and it's what cause Johnson to get some really dangerous swing the last time we toured. I don't think we should fall into the trap of just playing tall bowlers. Anderson should get given another chance, but his performances since Trent Bridge are not good enough.
Boycott was pretty dismissive of Anderson his morning , he reckons anderson would get nothing from the Perth pitch and it will favour the pace bowlers - as its a must win game I'd tend to agree that pace is the way to go - jimmy is not on form and Finn and rankin will be chomping at the bit - this will be a result game and either 2-1 or 3-0 , the forecast is for 35deg throughout the test - plenty of bounce and a good toss to win of which we are due.
Anderson will be much more suited to Melbourne and Sydney.
I think we do need a spinner and on current form I'd go with monty - the Aussies have gone after swann and he looks shot on confidence.
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The stats are so damning on our batsmen.
Out of the 40 wickets we have lost, 21 of them have been caught down the leg side.
That is an unfathomable stat really, I don't know the average in test cricket for leg side catches, but I'm guessing that it's probably about 5 or 6 tops for every 40 lost
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The stats are so damning on our batsmen.
Out of the 40 wickets we have lost, 21 of them have been caught down the leg side.
That is an unfathomable stat really, I don't know the average in test cricket for leg side catches, but I'm guessing that it's probably about 5 or 6 tops for every 40 lost
Yes if they didn't go for so many hook and pull shots the Aussies wouldn't bowl so many short balls - the only real positive is 5 of our top 7 scored half centuries in this test so at least confidence may be improving .
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Brennan for Swann. That'd be all I think.
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The stats are so damning on our batsmen.
Out of the 40 wickets we have lost, 21 of them have been caught down the leg side.
That is an unfathomable stat really, I don't know the average in test cricket for leg side catches, but I'm guessing that it's probably about 5 or 6 tops for every 40 lost
Yes if they didn't go for so many hook and pull shots the Aussies wouldn't bowl so many short balls - the only real positive is 5 of our top 7 scored half centuries in this test so at least confidence may be improving .
I'm not sure it's that positive, it's symptomatic of what we've been doing over the last year or so, getting starts and not going on.
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The stats are so damning on our batsmen.
Out of the 40 wickets we have lost, 21 of them have been caught down the leg side.
That is an unfathomable stat really, I don't know the average in test cricket for leg side catches, but I'm guessing that it's probably about 5 or 6 tops for every 40 lost
Yes if they didn't go for so many hook and pull shots the Aussies wouldn't bowl so many short balls - the only real positive is 5 of our top 7 scored half centuries in this test so at least confidence may be improving .
I'm not sure it's that positive, it's symptomatic of what we've been doing over the last year or so, getting starts and not going on.
Agree, but there is a little glimmer of hope. I'd probably go for the same top five, but maybe consider dropping Prior, batting Bairstow at six and Stokes at seven. I'd probably keep Anderson in, but bring in either Finn or Rankin and keep Monty in ahead of Swann. After having such a settled line up fo so long, we're back to the kind of chopping and changing we used to see back in the 90's.
I was discussing our batting woes with a work colleague earlier today and said that I wonder if some of the current crop of batsmen have built reputations in era when there hasn't been too much in the way of genuinely world class bowling. It seems that they struggle badly whenever they come up against genuine top bowlers (Steyn, Ajmal, Johnson on this form) and you have to wonder how they would have fared back in the 90s when the likes of Ambrose, Walsh, Donald, Pollock, Akram, Younis, McGrath and Warne were about.
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@bbctms: Andy Flower tells @bbcsport senior players could be dropped "I’m absolutely ready to make tough decisions. There will be changes in Perth”
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I'm not really sure what that means from Flower, I personally don't think there's any point in changing the batting now. Other than Cook they all got some runs in the last game, so you may as well give them another go. I like Stokes at 6 as well, I like his attitude.
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I'm not really sure what that means from Flower, I personally don't think there's any point in changing the batting now. Other than Cook they all got some runs in the last game, so you may as well give them another go. I like Stokes at 6 as well, I like his attitude.
In Perth the bowling will be key for changes - we have genuine pace bowlers in rankin and Finn on a pitch thats perfect for them - or do we go with out of form bowlers who have performed badly .
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Swann is the obvious one who has consistently underperformed.
Maybe Prior too but that would be a massive call. Maybe it'll be Swann and Monty for Bresnan and Finn. Be happy with that to be honest.
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I actually feel sorry for the new ball bowlers. We shaded both the 1'st days at both Adelaide and Brisbane and that includes dropped catches. Anderson, for all the critisicm did a good job on day oe at Brisbane as the holding bowler while Broad did the damage. They then get two sessions rest (half of which they are either padded up or batting) and they're back out there again against batsmen who can play their shots as they've a massive lead to play with.
They'd be forgiven for being a tad dispirited with our batting efforts.
It's the batting and fielding that has cost us and a general lack of aggression in comparison to what the Aussies have thrown at us.
Having said that, I think the only changes will be in the bowling department as we have to start giving back a little more of what we've received. That mean Anderson, Broad, Bresnan and Finn in short, quick , aggressive bursts. Forecast is horrendous heat wise - 36-40c every day so maybe that will mean they do go with a spinner depending on the pitch.
Oh, and winning the toss would be nice.........
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Swann is the obvious one who has consistently underperformed.
Maybe Prior too but that would be a massive call. Maybe it'll be Swann and Monty for Bresnan and Finn. Be happy with that to be honest.
Rather see rankin than Bresnan in Perth for this one game.
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Look i would nt mind Rankin either but Bresnans winning experience, batting ability and the fact that he can bowl that quicker surprise delivery gives him the nod for me.
He's just a better allround cricketer and with our batting we need as any of those as we can.
I can accept defeat, i support the Villa for McGraths sake, I just want us to go down with a real fight instead of a whimper like it has been so far.
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Look i would nt mind Rankin either but Bresnans winning experience, batting ability and the fact that he can bowl that quicker surprise delivery gives him the nod for me.
He's just a better allround cricketer and with our batting we need as any of those as we can.
I can accept defeat, i support the Villa for McGraths sake, I just want us to go down with a real fight instead of a whimper like it has been so far.
Oh you sound like a real Aussie there - how many times do they start a sentence with look ? :)
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It's finding myself doing the raised inflection that worries me more. Very annoying when you've realised you've just done it.
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I'm in two minds about whether we should play a spinner or not. I think they'll certainly play Bresnan as Flower likes what he adds to the batting, and he'll come in for one of the spinners. So it'll be a case of Finn or a spinner and I think we really need Finn at Perth.
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It's finding myself doing the raised inflection that worries me more. Very annoying when you've realised you've just done it.
Now you've said that I will now find myself reading all your posts as if they are a question.
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I'm in two minds about whether we should play a spinner or not. I think they'll certainly play Bresnan as Flower likes what he adds to the batting, and he'll come in for one of the spinners. So it'll be a case of Finn or a spinner and I think we really need Finn at Perth.
@MichaelVaughan: The heat is going to be ridiculous ... So want 5 bowlers and definitely a spinner ... #Ashes. #perth
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Well I'd have 5 bowlers with Stokes included and if you're going to play a spinner then Rankin/Finn won't play.
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Well I'd have 5 bowlers with Stokes included and if you're going to play a spinner then Rankin/Finn won't play.
If neither rankin or Finn are chosen we can kiss goodbye to the urn now - the conditions are perfect for both of them and thy are not blighted by being woefully off form .
The extra height will produce more bounce and we need to give the Aussies something different to worry about .
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Let's not forget that Finn and Rankin have hardly pulled up trees on tour or they'd be playing. I really rate Finn but he's a bowler who needs bowling, I'm not sure you can bring him in cold.
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Let's not forget that Finn and Rankin have hardly pulled up trees on tour or they'd be playing. I really rate Finn but he's a bowler who needs bowling, I'm not sure you can bring him in cold.
Well you have to bring him in from somewhere, and the pitch at Perth should help him ease in.
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I agree but I don't think it's a case that if he doesn't play it's game over. I want Finn in the side, but I want a Finn who is properly supported by his captain.
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I'm in two minds about whether we should play a spinner or not. I think they'll certainly play Bresnan as Flower likes what he adds to the batting, and he'll come in for one of the spinners. So it'll be a case of Finn or a spinner and I think we really need Finn at Perth.
@MichaelVaughan: The heat is going to be ridiculous ... So want 5 bowlers and definitely a spinner ... #Ashes. #perth
Potentially, this could be the best news yet for England, I'd like to see how quick Johnson can bowl IF we manage to keep them out in that for more than 2,sessions. Might be the pace leveler we've been needing.
Win the toss, bat properly for a change and you never know. Media here fully expecting Aus to crush England in this one. Could be very interesting if we somehow get a result.
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Well that's it, if you look at the second innings in Adelaide Johnson's accuracy started to go a bit wayward once he'd had to bowl more overs.
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Its looking a bit toasty in Perth.
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Bottom line is we need to get 400 + in our first innings in order to start turning the pressure round on the Aussies. I'd be curious to see how they cope if they have to respond to a massive total.
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It wouldn't do any harm to win the toss this time either.
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i'd go
Cook
Carberry
Bell
Peterson
Root
Stokes
Prior
Bresnan
Broad
Finn
Anderson
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i'd go
Cook
Carberry
Bell
Peterson
Root
Stokes
Prior
Bresnan
Broad
Finn
Anderson
Tempting - but I think I would play Panesar ahead of Bresnan to get at their right-handlers later in the game on a pitch baked by hot sun for 4 days (does rely on us winning the toss and getting 450 though !)
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Let's not forget that Finn and Rankin have hardly pulled up trees on tour or they'd be playing. I really rate Finn but he's a bowler who needs bowling, I'm not sure you can bring him in cold.
They wouldn't have played mainly because Brisbane didnt suit and Adelaide we went with. 2 spinners - now the conditions are perfect for them - I wouldn't carry on playing bowlers who are woefully off form - at some stage changes need to be made and lose this game and it will be over .
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Bottom line is we need to get 400 + in our first innings in order to start turning the pressure round on the Aussies. I'd be curious to see how they cope if they have to respond to a massive total.
Exactly - win the toss , post a decent score and skittle the tossers out cheap :)
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i'd go
Cook
Carberry
Bell
Peterson
Root
Stokes
Prior
Bresnan
Broad
Finn
Anderson
Tempting - but I think I would play Panesar ahead of Bresnan to get at their right-handlers later in the game on a pitch baked by hot sun for 4 days (does rely on us winning the toss and getting 450 though !)
I would be amazed if panesar doesn't get the gig in Perth.
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I don't mind that side, but I am apprehensive about having no spinner. Bresnan will play, so I imagine it'll be Finn or Panesar/Swann.
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I don't mind that side, but I am apprehensive about having no spinner. Bresnan will play, so I imagine it'll be Finn or Panesar/Swann.
If Bresnan gets the nod ahead of Finn then for me the ashes are gone - we need to take 20 wickets - dream conditions for Finn who has the height and bounce and pace - Bresnan is a steady set bowler who hasn't bowled much in recent months - got to be Finn for me - if we go with Bresnan then it should be at the expense of stokes with prior at 6.
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There's no point in bringing Bresnan for Stokes, Stokes is one of our quickest bowlers. The problem if you play Finn and Panesar is that our tail becomes very long, I appreciate we haven't batted well but that certainly won't help. I think Finn should play, but if that's going to be the case we shouldn't be playing a spinner.
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There's no point in bringing Bresnan for Stokes, Stokes is one of our quickest bowlers. The problem if you play Finn and Panesar is that our tail becomes very long, I appreciate we haven't batted well but that certainly won't help. I think Finn should play, but if that's going to be the case we shouldn't be playing a spinner.
I think we need to play Finn and a spinner - if that leaves the tail long then thats a risk we have to take in a game which we must take 20 wickets - we just have to hope our top 6 deliver the runs and the bowlers deliver the wickets - we are at the point where every player must be on top of their game .
If by some means we could win this test then I would fancy us to at least retain the ashes with Melbourne and Sydney to come.
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I think we have to win this Test, I know a draw wouldn't mean the end mathematically but I think winning in Sydney and Melbourne back to back will be very tricky.
I don't think they'll change the top 6 given that Flower was praising Stokes, especially since he gives us pace and bounce. I'd like Finn to play, but I actually think Bresnan would be useful in Perth.
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I'm waiting for Clarke to name our team for us.
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2am means can go to bed on time and watch 3 or 4 hours in the morning , which is handy.
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@MichaelVaughan: Sensing a Gary Balance debut this week .... #Ashes.
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If Ballance plays then we'll play 4 bowlers and that won't be enough. I don't see them changing the top 6.
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If Ballance plays then we'll play 4 bowlers and that won't be enough. I don't see them changing the top 6.
Agreed, I think it would be a mistake.
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If anybody is staying up to watch the cricket tonight here's something to help you pass the time.
Iain Morris the creator of The Inbetweeners very kindly took time out from writing the second Inbetweeners film to write a memory for World Alzheimer's Day, it's my favourite memory we've ever had submitted and contains ineptitude to match that of the England team and is also rather poignant.
I love cricket. Always have, and so before I started secondary school my beloved grandfather bought me a bat.
Now, i’d played a bit at the local club, but mainly I had played with my dad and granddad down the park and whilst I didn’t have the best technique in the world (despite owning a copy of Greg Chappell’s illustrated Cricket Shots) I had a good eye for a ball and could hit it powerfully enough.
I spent a full day that summer going round every local sports shop with my grandfather, both of us asking questions, before we eventually selected a Duncan Fearnley. As he handed it to me I like to remember a tear in his eye, but it’s more likely that the tear was in my eye. Certainly it’s hard to think of him now - a slim, balding West Country sports fan and decent batsman who worked in accounts for Heinz his whole life apart from the 6 years he ended up fighting a war over three different continents – without a tear. I know he had great hopes for my cricket career, and I nurtured and oiled the bat all through the winter playing endless air shots with it indoors without ever subjecting it to a real ball.
I was nervous the whole week leading up to the first Friday games session where we would choose our sport for the summer. It seemed to me that the whole First Year was excited, and some of the more confident boys were already talking about how many runs they reckoned they’d score or wickets they reckoned they’d take that year.
I sidled up to one such conversation as the subject turned to bats. It seemed like fate because just as I got there my bat, the exact make and model, was brought up. I opened my mouth, about to brag, when one of the more confident 11 year olds piped up with;
“Piece of shit. Only for idiots and children. Not even really a proper bat”.
And that was that. Friday came, I chose Tennis as my option (which i remain terrible at) and the bat never saw a ball. My grandfather asked me, with undisguised heartbreak in his voice, why i’d not taken cricket and I think I replied that “tennis was better”. The first lie i’d ever told him.
Five years later, when I was in the lower sixth, opportunity knocked. Some bizarre A and A/S level scheduling meant that all of the first 11 cricket team bar two had exams that clashed with a match. Incredibly it was the same for the second 11 and all of the thirds (who were essentially just skivers who liked the outdoors anyway). The school needed five players to fill the team for a real, bona fide, potentially name on the honours board in gold leaf, first eleven cricket match.
I volunteered immediately, and because of the apathy of other more athletic teenagers, I was ‘selected’. It had been a few years since i’d held a bat, but I knew I could field (who can’t?) and could also bowl a bit of spin. How I knew I could bowl a bit of spin was that I had tried bowling some medium / fast seamers in the nets and was told by one of the more popular cricketers that I was ‘a sort of failed spinner’. Good enough.
The game started and I was down to bat 11. Not ideal, sure, but at least I knew i’d get a bowl and we were fielding first. The rag tag assortment was doing okay but we couldn’t shift the opposition’s star opener, and so after a few overs I was thrown the ball.
This, I felt, was my big moment. A couple of cheap wickets here, people start to take notice, and the next thing you know i’m first name on the team sheet for my final year at school and my grandfather is watching beaming from the stands. And if he’d been there that day he would definitely have been watching beaming, because my first two balls went about head high to the keeper.
Two wides. The next ball the batsman had got his eye in and walloped it for four. I took a moment, and composed myself. This was a big deal and I did not want to blow it. The next ball bit, turned, and got a polite smattering of applause from my teammates.
The ball after that did much the same and suddenly I seemed to have the respect of the batsman. The next ball was a dot too, though there wasn’t an awful amount of turn. In fact there was no turn, so the next ball was smashed to the boundary for a one bounce four. As I walked back to my mark the captain – one of the AS level avoiders – said to me that a good spinner shouldn’t be afraid to get hit. Let the batsman go after you, i’ll shift someone back there. And he did.
I remember every second of what happened next. I skipped (yes. what?) up to bowl, released the ball and before it had even pitched the batsman had started to wind up. It didn’t turn, of course, and he swung through it launching it skyward to the cover boundary. To the exact spot where the Captain had just stationed a man. Or rather, a boy like me who was not a regular cricketer. I watched as the ball arced towards him. He held his hands in a loose cradle just above his head. His form was perfect. He was going to catch this. The ball descended right in to his fingers. And then right through them, hitting his head with a noise like a champagne cork popping before bouncing straight up about four feet. My fielder wasn’t defeated (or brain damaged) though and alerted by the shouts of “catch it” (my own more a primal scream than a shout) he turned to look for the ball. As he faced the boundary, the ball descended again but this time his hands were not formed for the catch. The ball dropped past his nose, onto his foot - which was in motion - and he kicked the ball three feet over the rope on the full.
Six was signalled, and that was the last ball I ever bowled for the school.
I was however immortalised in the scorebook. It turned out that it was a school tradition to nominate a player who contributed the least to the match, and the team chose me.
Later that year my grandfather was diagnosed with alzheimers, but being able to tell him that i’d not only played for the school first eleven but had merited special mention in the scorebook meant the world to me. Even if it was only as ‘Spare Wanker’.
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Interesting in the last 12 years the team who won the toss in Perth only won 4 times and the losers of the toss have won more often- so it doesn't seem as crucial as Adelaide or Brisbane.
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Well it suggests you want to lose it.
This is the team I'd go for -
Cook
Carberry
Root
KP
Bell
Stokes
Prior
Bresnan
Broad
Rankin/Swann(dependant how the pitch looks)
Anderson
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I agree with that team, I ope they don't go for Ballance ahead of Stokes, Stokes should get the rest of the series now to see if he can become the all rounder we need, one game and out would do him no good at all.
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I agree with that team, I ope they don't go for Ballance ahead of Stokes, Stokes should get the rest of the series now to see if he can become the all rounder we need, one game and out would do him no good at all.
I agree it's too late to change the batting line up now, and I think overall Stokes acquitted himself pretty well. He bowled pretty well and with pace and his 28 in the second innings was gutsy and showed the right character. He has the talent and we've got to back him now we've picked him.
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I agree with that team, I ope they don't go for Ballance ahead of Stokes, Stokes should get the rest of the series now to see if he can become the all rounder we need, one game and out would do him no good at all.
I agree it's too late to change the batting line up now, and I think overall Stokes acquitted himself pretty well. He bowled pretty well and with pace and his 28 in the second innings was gutsy and showed the right character. He has the talent and we've got to back him now we've picked him.
Surprised you have opted to leave Finn out when you have been one of his biggest backers in the last few months - I'd definitely put Finn ahead of rankin or swann for this game but wouldn't mind seeing rankin picked as well as Finn .
Swann is a no for me - the Aussies would get after him and score too many quick runs .
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Well it suggests you want to lose it.
This is the team I'd go for -
Cook
Carberry
Root
KP
Bell
Stokes
Prior
Bresnan
Broad
Rankin/Swann(dependant how the pitch looks)
Anderson
I'd keep the same top five as you, but I'd move prior up to six, bat Bresnan at seven and then have Broad, Anderson, Finn / Rankin and Monty. Can't see too many changes being made though. Think it will be a case of giving the tried and tested "one more chance" and they'll only go for big changes if we go 3-0 down and the series has gone.
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Well it suggests you want to lose it.
This is the team I'd go for -
Cook
Carberry
Root
KP
Bell
Stokes
Prior
Bresnan
Broad
Rankin/Swann(dependant how the pitch looks)
Anderson
I'd keep the same top five as you, but I'd move prior up to six, bat Bresnan at seven and then have Broad, Anderson, Finn / Rankin and Monty. Can't see too many changes being made though. Think it will be a case of giving the tried and tested "one more chance" and they'll only go for big changes if we go 3-0 down and the series has gone.
I'd go for that tomd.
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We are out of this series, big time. There will be no great come back from 2-0 down. ;)
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We are out of this series, big time. There will be no great come back from 2-0 down. ;)
You dirty rat ;)
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There is no way Prior should be moved to 6 he's only just got some runs and it would potentially damage Stokes to drop him. He's also one of our quickest bowlers so not sure why you wouldn't want him. I back Finn when he's had a run of games, but he's too cold.
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13-1 great bit of fielding
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Direct hit makes a big difference. Fair play to Rogers for walking.
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something to cheer at last
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Nothing in this track for bowlers.
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Except for Broad... 2 down
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And Swann. 1st over, gets Clarke. 105 for 3.
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good first session, but need to get warner out ASAP after lunch.
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Well 3 down, but I can't help but think that anything over 250 will be too much for our batsmen to compete with. It's looked a pretty ideal surface to bat on, but I suppose it would when the seam bowlers are all sending it down at 82 to 85 mph. I'm willing to bet that Johnson and Harris look a tad more threatening.
I'm slightly perplexed that we'd take Rankin and Finn, then get completely humiliated in the first two tests, then get conditions ideal for them and play neither of them.
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rattle another 2 down PDG and it will be looking very rosy
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This is the chance. 160-6 required.
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Come on !!!! Now to get Haddin cheap
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Brooooooooooady C'mon
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A couple of Anderson deliveries were clocked at 90mph. So it's looking like this pitch is adding 5mph to the normal speed of the bowlers.
I can't see this England batting lineup making more than 120-160 if I'm honest, and if we start badly we could be looking at double figures.
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Just keep plugging away, getting them out.....
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How jammy is Haddin so far - could have been out 3 times already. And well done Billy - 5 ball over you tosser.
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Thay say you make your own luck in sport, but Haddin's hundred at Adelaide was one of the jammiest i've seen. Dropped twice, caught of a no ball and a missed run out.
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we could have a couple more here, bowling really well
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Blowers is becoming very difficult to listen to.
The anecdotes are still great but he doesn't seem to have a clue as to who's doing what on the field.
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I've got to say, I think this has been another really pathetic display.
Out of the wickets we've taken, 1 has been a good bit of fielding allied to poor running, and the the other 4 have been down to horrendous shots. We have barely beat the edge all day. This match is as good as gone already, they've already got more than enough.
Oh and Bresnan has been a particular joke. Averaging 82mph and still can't offer any control. I cannot understand why he has been selected. They must have seen that he was nowhere near ready.
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Oh just fuck off Carberry. That was fucking cretinous
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Listened to tms and boycott was beside himself at the team selection - he sees stokes as a number 8 at best and was bemused as to how rankin or Finn are not being used as real pace is the key in Perth - sadly flower for all his talk has bottled the selection .
As the Aussies hammer Bresnan all over the shop the ashes are slipping through our fingers - 5 down we had them for the taking but this partnership is taking them away from us - likely to post 400 and the ashes are all but gone .
Willy wombat will be here shortly to perform the last rights :(
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Listened to tms and boycott was beside himself at the team selection - he sees stokes as a number 8 at best and was bemused as to how rankin or Finn are not being used as real pace is the key in Perth - sadly flower for all his talk has bottled the selection .
As the Aussies hammer Bresnan all over the shop the ashes are slipping through our fingers - 5 down we had them for the taking but this partnership is taking them away from us - likely to post 400 and the ashes are all but gone .
Willy wombat will be here shortly to perform the last rights :(
I can fully understand Boycott being livid at the selection. I am too.
To be honest I'll be staggered if we get them out for 400. I really can't see them getting less than 475-500 as there is just nothing there in our side, skill or character wise at the moment.
Utterly pathetic yet again.
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You know I think our bowlers are pretty much as culpable as our batsmen for our woes in this series. Once again we get them 5 down and then completely blow it, it has a knock on effect on the batsmen. Poor all round.
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Well the rumours of Bresnan having more zip seem to be wide of the mark. This is rubbish.
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Fuck me. A wicket. Too little too late though
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Fuck me. A wicket. Too little too late though
Unless we skittle the last 4 out cheaply and I really can't see it with this bowling attack :(
Get them out for 300 and there may still be faint hope but I fear they are more likely to get 400 .
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Thank you Ben Stokes, good tight bowling. We need a clatter of wickets now.
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Just watch Johnson get a score now
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See the difference a bit of extra pace made with that stokes delivery - Finn and rankin must be sick as parrots to be missing out here.
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Australia's batsmen seem to have come as us today. I mean obviously they've scored a hell of a lot more runs than ours will, but all of the shots they've got out to have been horrific
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Why the fuck is Bresnan still bowling?
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Why the fuck is Bresnan still bowling?
More to the point , why the fuck is he playing !
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We desperately need a clatter of wickets here. This pitch is good to bat on, batsmen have just got themselves out.
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See the difference a bit of extra pace made with that stokes delivery - Finn and rankin must be sick as parrots to be missing out here.
The naysayers on Finn will undoubtably bring up his lack of control as a reason for him not playing. However, that's a moot point as the whole of our attack has had fuck all control today.
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We desperately need a clatter of wickets here. This pitch is good to bat on, batsmen have just got themselves out.
Its good to bat on if facing a seam attack - when facing a genuine pace attack we will see a big difference .
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See the difference a bit of extra pace made with that stokes delivery - Finn and rankin must be sick as parrots to be missing out here.
The naysayers on Finn will undoubtably bring up his lack of control as a reason for him not playing. However, that's a moot point as the whole of our attack has had fuck all control today.
Exactly - wickets win matches !
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We desperately need a clatter of wickets here. This pitch is good to bat on, batsmen have just got themselves out.
Its good to bat on if facing a seam attack - when facing a genuine pace attack we will see a big difference .
Well again if we can't bat then it's all pointless anyway. It'll be a good batting pitch whatever the bowling attack, it's easy to score runs on.
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Finn's issue is form, he hasn't looked good on this tour at all. I rate him really highly but he's not making a case to pick him at the moment.
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Johnson scoring very easily.
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Finn's issue is form, he hasn't looked good on this tour at all. I rate him really highly but he's not making a case to pick him at the moment.
He took the most wickets in the warm ups. When we've struggled to look anything like taking wickets surely that's a strong enough reason for him to play
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Finn's issue is form, he hasn't looked good on this tour at all. I rate him really highly but he's not making a case to pick him at the moment.
He took the most wickets in the warm ups. When we've struggled to look anything like taking wickets surely that's a strong enough reason for him to play
I can totally see that argument, but then again Bresnan took wickets in the performance games he played. I agree we look a bit short, and personally with the team we have at the moment I'd have Stokes taking the new ball for a couple of overs.
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For fucks sake
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Fucking edge's not carrying, we get no luck.
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This is really good from Stokes though, his more senior colleagues should be watching this.
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We've bowled like shit since Haddin got out
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Ton for Smith, the bowler I'm most disappointed by is Anderson. He's not threatened at all.
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They're smashing it everywhere now, this is getting away from us fast.
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I'll be surprised if Johnson doesn't get at least 50
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You seem to miss the point pwa - Bresnan may me a decent bowler although as Nasser just said he's been the workhorse - but the key point is this is a pace bowlers wicket and made for the likes of Steve Finn .
If having been thrashed twice and with bowlers off form you decide not to play him in perfect conditions for him then when will he play ?
There's no way Bresnan should be ahead of Finn on this pitch - you say its easy to get runs but lets see how easy it is tomorrow when Johnson is banging it in at well over 90mph .
You advocated Bresnan and Anderson and both have been poor - should have gone with Finn and rankin as that was the chance of winning.
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You seem to miss the point pwa - Bresnan may me a decent bowler although as Nasser just said he's been the workhorse - but the key point is this is a pace bowlers wicket and made for the likes of Steve Finn .
If having been thrashed twice and with bowlers off form you decide not to play him in perfect conditions for him then when will he play ?
There's no way Bresnan should be ahead of Finn on this pitch - you say its easy to get runs but lets see how easy it is tomorrow when Johnson is banging it in at well over 90mph .
I'm not missing any point, I've said that I rate Finn but he is not right currently. If you remember I said we should play Rankin, so I'm well aware of the pace issue. We will see how we go against Johnson, but there's a big difference Johnson is confident and Finn is not. They're very similar bowlers in that respect, if it's going well they're great if it's not they're all over the place.
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I disagree that Finn is not right , it's hardly as of we would be leaving out an in form bowler to bring him in - either way the damage has been done now and the Aussies are as good as home and dry - come on willy wombat , time to claim your prize :(
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Our biggest problem out of all the debates around the bowlers is that our main strike bowlers, Anderson and Swann have done virtually nothing this series.
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Our biggest problem out of all the debates around the bowlers is that our main strike bowlers, Anderson and Swann have done virtually nothing this series.
Agreed , although the same could be said about almost the whole team in all honesty - a series to forget :(
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Their middle/lower order has consistently killed us and it's happening again.
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Stokes should be bowling the new ball not Anderson, in fact I'm not sure Anderson should be playing at all.
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Stokes should be bowling the new ball not Anderson, in fact I'm not sure Anderson should be playing at all.
Flower has got the selection totally wrong - inexcusable as he knew this was a fast bowlers pitch with nothing for the swing or seam bowlers - all this bollocks of not being afraid to make big changes is pie in the sky .
Same old same old !
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Point for debate: our bowling has been as bad if not worse than the batting this tour. Johnson bowling with a heap of runs to play with vs with a small total to defend would be quite a different matter.
Letting Smith - SMITH! - get a century should mean bowlers' match fees are forfeit.
And how many tail end stands is it going to take for them to realise that when the Aussie monster is wounded you don't take your fucking foot off its throat, you decapitate and burn the remains to be sure.
Australia, like Man Ure vs Villa, could field 11 supporters for the next natch and we'll still find a way to lose.
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No shape , no discipline , being pissed on now by the Aussies!
Time to stand up and be counted - yeah right :(
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Whether it's seam or spin we just haven't bowled very well. Anderson has carried no threat at all, Bresnan hasn't at all, Broad has been erratic. I think we're suffering from the fact that English pitches are set up to suit our team too much and we've become a bit soft.
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No doubt tomorrow we will fuck about at two an over as we struggle to make runs again .
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No doubt tomorrow we will fuck about at two an over as we struggle to make runs again .
If they let us bat tomorrow!
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It would help if they bowled AT the stumps.
Or am I being too simplistic .......
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Well that ended up as a nightmare. Once again we've completely let them off the hook. I expect I'll get up tomorrow and Australia will have scored 500+ and we're about 100-4/5. This really has been a dismal tour and I can't wait for it to end. There needs to be a real overhaul of this side, we've become soft and weak.
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Well that ended up as a nightmare. Once again we've completely let them off the hook. I expect I'll get up tomorrow and Australia will have scored 500+ and we're about 100-4/5. This really has been a dismal tour and I can't wait for it to end. There needs to be a real overhaul of this side, we've become soft and weak.
At least I can have a late night on Xmas day now, no need to get some sleep in order to get up early to catch the 4th test.
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This Aussie bowling coach of England sounds about as inspiring as a piece of burnt toast :(
Virtually admitted they have got the bowling selection wrong .
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Anderson and Swann in particular have been a massive let down. In Swann's case he was gifted two wickets and other than that he was really poor. We do need an overhaul and get some youth and hunger back into this side.
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@MichaelVaughan: Fear the worst ... #Ashesgone.
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"We assess selection all the time. We make mistakes, and we might have made a mistake in this game. We picked a side that we thought would get 20 wickets and that still could happen."
Bloody hell Saker, how many bloody mistakes in a row though. This entire tour has been one giant mistake thus far.
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I definitely would have played Rankin in this game, his form in the ODIs last summer showed he could shake the Aussies up. I know I selected Bresnan for this game, but I thought he might at least control an end but he's been hopeless.
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I definitely would have played Rankin in this game, his form in the ODIs last summer showed he could shake the Aussies up. I know I selected Bresnan for this game, but I thought he might at least control an end but he's been hopeless.
I forgive you ;)
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Once again, Sir Geoffrey's end of play analysis will be the only highlight of the day.
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Once again, Sir Geoffrey's end of play analysis will be the only highlight of the day.
Did he say say his gran could have played this England bowling attack with a stick of rhubarb ?
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If only we had taken some tall fast bowlers on tour
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It's not just tall fast bowlers though, we could have got away with it if any of our bowlers had actually bowled well and they didn't. They only one who bowled consistently decently was Stokes and he's a rookie. Our senior players have badly let us down in all facets of the game and like I said it's time for a change.
This series is a culmination of what's been coming for a while, for a long period of time we've failed to get scores of over 400 and recently our bowlers have struggled to rip teams apart as much as they used to. We've lost our hunger, focus and quality and we need fresh ideas and young, hungry players.
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It's sad to say that the Australian's are showing a lot more character, desire and heart than us.
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There is no killer instinct in the side, everyone has had it too comfortable for too long. If we had been 150-5 the probability is we'd be all out for 200, they are looking at 400+. That's the difference.
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There is no killer instinct in the side, everyone has had it too comfortable for too long. If we had been 150-5 the probability is we'd be all out for 200, they are looking at 400+. That's the difference.
Yep one of our many problems. Basically a successful cricket team needs to have the right balance so that the players are secure enough in their position that they aren't worried that one bad display will result in being dropped, but at the same time you can't have players consistently performing poorly and having no threat of losing their place.
At the moment our team has the wrong mix completely. You have the majority of positions that seem completely secure regardless of performance, eg Anderson, Swann, Pietersen. Then you have two positions, number 6 and the 3rd seamer who seem to be one bad display away from the chop. For example Finn is in and out of the team all the time and isn't afforded any security and I'm certain that's been a factor in his loss of confidence and rhythm. The whole set up is incosistent, and the results of this are showing on the pitch.
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I definitely would have played Rankin in this game, his form in the ODIs last summer showed he could shake the Aussies up. I know I selected Bresnan for this game, but I thought he might at least control an end but he's been hopeless.
You definitely wouldn't, you admit it yourself.
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"@StuartBroad Could have been better today but 6 wickets on a Day 1 Test pitch after losing yet another Toss is a pretty good effort."
Here's the problem. They ACTUALLY think they've done well!
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I definitely would have played Rankin in this game, his form in the ODIs last summer showed he could shake the Aussies up. I know I selected Bresnan for this game, but I thought he might at least control an end but he's been hopeless.
You definitely wouldn't, you admit it yourself.
I said they should both start, I was wrong on Bresnan.
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There is no killer instinct in the side, everyone has had it too comfortable for too long. If we had been 150-5 the probability is we'd be all out for 200, they are looking at 400+. That's the difference.
Yep one of our many problems. Basically a successful cricket team needs to have the right balance so that the players are secure enough in their position that they aren't worried that one bad display will result in being dropped, but at the same time you can't have players consistently performing poorly and having no threat of losing their place.
At the moment our team has the wrong mix completely. You have the majority of positions that seem completely secure regardless of performance, eg Anderson, Swann, Pietersen. Then you have two positions, number 6 and the 3rd seamer who seem to be one bad display away from the chop. For example Finn is in and out of the team all the time and isn't afforded any security and I'm certain that's been a factor in his loss of confidence and rhythm. The whole set up is incosistent, and the results of this are showing on the pitch.
Nail on the head. It's turned into an old boys club, all pats on the back if your face fit and kicked out on your arse if it doesn't.
Well it was good whilst it lasted and I think there are the players coming through to rebuild and hopefully learn a few lessons.
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The plus side is there are a lot of good young players coming through. Finn, Stokes, Rankin(slightly older but still), Taylor, Buttler, Jordan, Mills, Borthwick, Foakes, Robson, Overton, Lees and Chopra are all young and promising cricketers. Whatever changes come in after this tour, there is a lot of potential to work with.
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The bigger issue regarding killer instinct is that we get to a point and then assume the job is done. Over the 2 series this year we've had the aussies under the boot in almost every innings but in the vast majroity of them we've let them off and allowed them to still get a par score with big runs in the lower order. The likes of Siddle, Johnson, etc can all hold a bat but their averages against us in 2013 and well up on their career averages because we've let them get cheap runs and not really got in their faces and examined their technique. For all the problems with the batting our collapses have usually come after we've let their bowlers have a good confident spell with the bat against bowlers who aren't asking enough questions.
Go in to bat against a side you've skittled for less than 200 and you're in a good place in terms of confidence and the top order can play their game, bat against a side who have 350+ despite being 5 or 6 down for less than 150 and deep down you know that you've thrown away an opportunity to kill the game.
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The bigger issue regarding killer instinct is that we get to a point and then assume the job is done. Over the 2 series this year we've had the aussies under the boot in almost every innings but in the vast majroity of them we've let them off and allowed them to still get a par score with big runs in the lower order. The likes of Siddle, Johnson, etc can all hold a bat but their averages against us in 2013 and well up on their career averages because we've let them get cheap runs and not really got in their faces and examined their technique. For all the problems with the batting our collapses have usually come after we've let their bowlers have a good confident spell with the bat against bowlers who aren't asking enough questions.
Go in to bat against a side you've skittled for less than 200 and you're in a good place in terms of confidence and the top order can play their game, bat against a side who have 350+ despite being 5 or 6 down for less than 150 and deep down you know that you've thrown away an opportunity to kill the game.
I agree to an extent but as the ball softened up and the bowlers tired in that heat it was always likely that somebody would get in and score a few.
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The bigger issue regarding killer instinct is that we get to a point and then assume the job is done. Over the 2 series this year we've had the aussies under the boot in almost every innings but in the vast majroity of them we've let them off and allowed them to still get a par score with big runs in the lower order. The likes of Siddle, Johnson, etc can all hold a bat but their averages against us in 2013 and well up on their career averages because we've let them get cheap runs and not really got in their faces and examined their technique. For all the problems with the batting our collapses have usually come after we've let their bowlers have a good confident spell with the bat against bowlers who aren't asking enough questions.
Go in to bat against a side you've skittled for less than 200 and you're in a good place in terms of confidence and the top order can play their game, bat against a side who have 350+ despite being 5 or 6 down for less than 150 and deep down you know that you've thrown away an opportunity to kill the game.
I agree to an extent but as the ball softened up and the bowlers tired in that heat it was always likely that somebody would get in and score a few.
I'd make the same assessment as you if it was the first time, but they have been allowed to get cheap runs from the tail pretty much consistently for 7 and a bit matches, that's when it becomes a worry.
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Having lost early wickets Smith and Haddin constructed their innings and therefore a partnership when they most needed it. We just weren't good enough to take a wicket. In fact, you could say we weren't lucky enough because there were a number of times where we could have got rid of Haddin early on which on another day would have happened. Had that happened things would have looked very different. What matters more is that we bat much, much better.
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I can't believe the team selection. We need to win a game so we pick medium/fast bowlers who if they bowl well will make it hard to get runs. Absolutely nuts.
Australia were always going to make damn sure we did not get a wicket in this series that was in any way conducive to seam. Yet the wicket takers are still left out.
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I can't believe the team selection. We need to win a game so we pick medium/fast bowlers who if they bowl well will make it hard to get runs. Absolutely nuts.
Australia were always going to make damn sure we did not get a wicket in this series that was in any way conducive to seam. Yet the wicket takers are still left out.
Yep, we effectively have 3 extremely similar seam bowlers, who are all fine bowlers at home and in certain conditions away.
It's almost as if the set up are surprised that Australia haven't prepared green tops. They were always going to produce quick bouncy wickets, and I was quite heartened by us taking Rankin, Finn, and Tremlett(before seeing how down on pace he was).
To not play either Finn or Rankin in this match is criminal.
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well now we see what the batsmen are made of. made to lunch. If we get to close 150+ and one down, that will be a miracle.
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Nobody jinx it!
I can't relax when England are batting, I'll breathe easy should we pass the Aussie score with 1 down or something...
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God dammit.
Australia now into the tail.
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LOL at DRS.
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The last 9 overs have gone for 7 runs and we've lost 2 wickets. Please England don't shit yourselves now and crumble. Show some intelligent fucking attacking intent.
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The last 9 overs have gone for 7 runs and we've lost 2 wickets. Please England don't shit yourselves now and crumble. Show some intelligent fucking attacking intent.
Cook forgot the "intelligent" part. Stupid uppish cut caught by a player who got out to a stupid uppish cut in their innings.
Oh well. With our batting to come, 3 down is really more like 8 down. Doesn't look so clever really.
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Oh, KP you div.
9 down.
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Such slow scoring against an old soft ball....what happens when they take the new ball? England should be getting runs now against an average bowling attack.
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Kp rarely succeeds when he plays these defensive innings .
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Well I didn't see the early part of the day, but at least we knocked them over for under 400 even if apparently they should have gone for less. Frustrating to see Cook, Carberry and Pietersen all get starts and not go on. I felt we went into our bunker a bit, but Stokes has done nicely. One thing I will say, this is pretty much the first time that we haven't been out of the game after the second day. We still have a chance, we need to put more pressure on the bowlers now and start scoring quicker and get up near the Aussie total.
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Run rate is still a big problem for England - the Aussies score quickly where as we get bogged down too easily.
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I like the look of Carberry I have to say. Even though he finds the silliest ways to get out, we seem to score more freely when he is there and he has scoring shots all round the wicket. He looks like he has a big, destructive innings in him.
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Carberry has been a positive of this tour. What today showed as I suspected it's not about pace, look at Johnson's figures. It's about bowling well, England managed it this morning and Australia managed it this evening. If you bowl on the right length you'll do alright on this pitch.
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Stokes impresses me as a cricketer, his bowling is sharp and will only get better with experience. He also has a great temperament and he showed character with the bat towards the end of the day. We need him and Bell to get towards centuries and then Prior and the tail to contribute.
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Kp rarely succeeds when he plays these defensive innings .
KP rarely succeeds at all these days
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If we can get to within under 50 of their total we give ourselves a fighting chance.
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If we can get to within under 50 of their total we give ourselves a fighting chance.
Providing we score at a decent rate that is - then we need to bowl the Aussies out cheaply and chase down a target .
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Cook showed the way even though he batted a bit to slow. He is clearly out of form, but he managed to get some runs which is important. If we're still batting come 9 o'clock tomorrow morning, we'll be well in the game. We have a glimmer of a chance and we have to take it.
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If we can get to within under 50 of their total we give ourselves a fighting chance.
Providing we score at a decent rate that is - then we need to bowl the Aussies out cheaply and chase down a target .
It's going to be tough but I'd say a deficit of 50 or less is the minimum if we're going to have any chance. What I think will happen is a limp surrender and waking up on Monday morning to learn the Ashes have gone.
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Already some pretty big cracks in the wicket , will not want to chase many batting last on this - batting will be harder by the day , Very interesting match if we can get within 50.
The new ball isn't far away though and Johnson has blown away our tail end recently so a tough ask.
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We need a century from Bell, Stokes or Prior with significant contributions from the other two and then we need the tail to contribute. We do have a chance here.
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It's also important we get the run rate moving tomorrow so that when we do lose a wicket we have made progress and it'll also pressurise their bowlers.
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Well I think that was another really poor effort by our batsmen.
180 from 68 overs on a pitch that is easy to score quickly on? The way we batted you'd think we were the team 2-0 up. I nodded off after Carberry got out, at which stage we had scored at a decent rate, then woke up when Pietersen had scored 3 from 39 balls!!!!!??? Why do they just allow the pressure to build on them so easily?
Not good enough yet again
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Whilst I agree with the run rate issue, I think you need to take into account that after tea Australia bowled fantastically well.
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Whilst I agree with the run rate issue, I think you need to take into account that after tea Australia bowled fantastically well.
They did bowl well, but I think a lot of that was them being allowed to bowl well. It's happened pretty much every time with our run rate in this series and the last.
Our batsmen consistently bat themselves into a corner before they inevitably get out.
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I think Stokes played the right way, he left where he could and then tried to punish the bad ball.
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That's a very disappointing wicket to lose. Bell just missed a straightish stock ball with a bit of in-nip from Harris and a good review found him trapped lbw. We're in real trouble now.
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190/5 on this pitch?
Just fuck off England you fucking wankers
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Stokes looks well out of place at 6. I can't help but agree with Boycott. No 8 at best
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Stokes looks promising, his bowling was accurate, his technique with bat and ball is steady and his temperament is good. However, that was a poor shot and an inevitable one, really. Vaughan's prediction of a 5-0 is not looking in a huge amount of danger of being disproved.
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Fucking pathetic Stokes. Anyone who thinks he's a test batsman is seriously deluded.
Predictable cowardly collapse yet again.
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As an aside, very funny to hear Gower criticise anyone for wafting at a wide one.
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Stokes looks promising, his bowling was accurate, his technique with bat and ball is steady and his temperament is good. However, that was a poor shot and an inevitable one, really. Vaughan's prediction of a 5-0 is not looking in a huge amount of danger of being disproved.
If I was an Aussie and we didn't beat this rabble of tossers 5-0 i'd want a government inquiry
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Stokes looks promising, his bowling was accurate, his technique with bat and ball is steady and his temperament is good. However, that was a poor shot and an inevitable one, really. Vaughan's prediction of a 5-0 is not looking in a huge amount of danger of being disproved.
If I was an Aussie and we didn't beat this rabble of tossers 5-0 i'd want a government inquiry
I think 'tossers' is a bit harsh, though it would explain why they look so listless and slack out there.
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Stokes looks promising, his bowling was accurate, his technique with bat and ball is steady and his temperament is good. However, that was a poor shot and an inevitable one, really. Vaughan's prediction of a 5-0 is not looking in a huge amount of danger of being disproved.
If I was an Aussie and we didn't beat this rabble of tossers 5-0 i'd want a government inquiry
I think 'tossers' is a bit harsh, though it would explain why they look so listless and slack out there.
LOL as the kids would say!
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In all seriousness, I've been watching England since the early 90's and I've got to say that this series is pretty much already the worst experience I've had with them.
At least in the mid 90's we were getting beaten badly by decent teams. This is the fucking pits. Australia are by no means a good side, which is proven by them losing their last two series before this a combined 7-0.
This collection of players are supposedly talented. To me they look like they lack courage
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This is actually becoming quite funny, in a sick sort of way
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That really was desperate. That's like how I might get out if I were playing. That was just awful.
I think the real difference with the '90s is that at least back then we sucked. However, we know what these players are capable of, and this just isn't good enough.
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Right so 3-0 down, going to lose 5-0 to an at best average team.
There needs to be drastic changes both in set up and personnel. There won't be.
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I dare say Swann and company will be spouting off on twitter after this game about "fair weather fans" and other bullshit.
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Right so 3-0 down, going to lose 5-0 to an at best average team.
There needs to be drastic changes both in set up and personnel. There won't be.
Who would come in in terms of personnel? We don't have anyone knocking on the door particularly loudly - in fact, the problem is that we have a hole or two in our best eleven. I do agree, however, that something clearly has to change profoundly in the set-up, because they look psychologically annihilated.
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As ever, there's no faulting Bresnan's psychology. He will go at this.
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I don't think that this batting line up can continually perform the pathetic way it has over the last 2 years and not be broken up. As talented as Pietersen is, I wouldn't be too disheartened to see him never play for us again. He lacks heart and his good days are becoming more and more sporadic.
I think Cook is a pretty poor, negative captain, who is not performing at all with the bat. I don't know whether its the captaincy affecting his batting but he's not been good enough.
Prior has been a joke in both this series and the last. Bowler wise, Anderson looks completely shot. Swann looks ineffective as teams have just learnt to stack their line ups with right handers.
I think that this group of players is pretty much shot. They've next to no heart left and will only get worse from this point. I think we need to get some of the younger players, such as Buttler, Ballance, Finn and Overton into the team. We might struggle for a while, but I can only see us struggling with the complacent gutless lot we have in at the moment.
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I think you've mischaracterised Cook, I think his captaincy's been improving as his batting has deteriorated (and who knows, maybe they are connected - wouldn't be the first time in history). Prior was showing better signs before that shot today.
I agree that we need to work in some new players, but the problem we have is that all of our best performers, having peaked together, are now declining together. It'll be a strange England without Jimmy Anderson but that's now a scenario we have to live with, or at least without the Jimmy of the last few years. Pietersen needs to go to some resort somewhere with a psychiatrist and some prozac and get things organised better in his head, it's all gone wrong for him. As for Swann the signs have been there for a while, so it might be time to bring ol' Muhdsuden back.
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I'm not sure Cook's captaincy has improved. Yesterday about 6 or 7 balls were edged through 3rd to 4th slip and no one was there.
I think Cook's default setting is to defend, regardless of the opposition or state of the game.
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I don't contest that. I just think that he has got more interesting, and occasionally adventurous, in his field placings recently. He was terrific in the Aussie first innings at Adelaide - the problem is nothing else went his way so he's gone back into his shell a bit. That innings was a huge improvement though, and considering that he's still a young captain I think he's worth sticking with. Besides which - who else would captain us?
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I think that Cook just needs to get back to scoring runs. I've never really been a fan of an opener being a captain to be honest, it just looks like too much to deal with, and i'd guess that the no of players whose own personal form has been maintained or improved is quite slim in that role.
Strauss worked as captain and opener because he had players around him scoring plenty of runs. At the moment Cook is crucial to our batting as no one looks like scoring anything
The possible replacement issue you raise is a good point. I think Broad has the attributes to be a successful captain. He's a naturally aggressive cricketer, which the upcoming set of players will need.
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Oh well, if we can bowl Australia out for 20 then we have a very slight chance.
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You know Broad isn't such a bad idea. I think he has a tendency to get wound up though - not a good thing for a captain. Jimmy maybe, but I'm always suspicious of bowler-captains, and besides he is on the decline. Prior's got a decent cricket brain but keeper-captains tend to have all sorts of problems, and Prior's place is hardly a certainty. It's an almost impossible situation.
It's very true what you say about openers. It's been said before: after a long time going through mental contortions to try and get the opposition bowled out, the last thing you need is to go into your batting zone and set yourself mentally for a long innings. It's like you're batting non-stop for five days.
Maybe we'd benefit from appointing Michael Vaughan to the backroom staff. Not in place of anyone, just in addition. He could help imprint a more positive mindset and style, and help Cook with tactics and mentality.
Also - big shout to John from Redditch, Villa fan being chatted to and TMS.
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I think we'd contrive a way to lose if the Aussies forfeited.
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I think Vaughan would be an excellent addition to the set up. He was an excellent captain and played with an aggressive mindset.
I also think Nasser would benefit the backroom staff immensely if they could get him involved in some way. When he became captain in 99 the team was at it's lowest ebb . He put fire and passion back into the side, something which seems sadly lacking at the moment.
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A dismal display of astonishing ineptitude.
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Nass would be good as well, though obviously you don't want that pudding to get too eggy. But yes, what those two captains had in common was a slightly manic drive and spark, and a determination to attack from Vaughan especially. Cook's passivity doesn't do him or his perception any favours, and it loses crucial momentum.
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A dismal display of astonishing ineptitude.
Beautifully put. It's hardly surprising though, it's pretty much the culmination of 2 years of poor batting being saved by either one individual innings or good bowling.
Neither of them things look remotely like happening now, so plenty of chickens have come home to roost.
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Nass would be good as well, though obviously you don't want that pudding to get too eggy. But yes, what those two captains had in common was a slightly manic drive and spark, and a determination to attack from Vaughan especially. Cook's passivity doesn't do him or his perception any favours, and it loses crucial momentum.
I suppose Vaughan did have the advantage of a genuinely excellent pace attack in all conditions, but his mindset was to look for victory from the outset, rather than the Strauss/Cook mantra of making sure a game was safe then trying to put pressure on the opposition.
Oh for the days of Harmison, Flintoff, Hoggard and Jones at their peak. I don't think this Aussie batting lineup would be taking the piss quite as much against them.
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To be honest, oh for the days of Swann and Jimmy at their peak, as good as any of those four. But for all the bowlers do, it's the batsmen who are having the piss taken, and deservedly so.
I thought Vaughan would be a good idea when I heard him on TMS wondering why the England players were tweeting ten minutes after the close. He seems very serious about this sport.
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The tweeting thing seems ridiculous to me. Swann showed himself in a pretty bad light after the first test in my opinion.
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There's been a lack of what might be called Englishness about this team: not enough courage, not enough stoicism, upper lip wobbling like jelly. Add the tweeting to that and it has been rather undignified as well as poor.
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I fear for our bowlers here. As ordinary as they have been all tour, they've had absolutely nothing to play with from our batsmen on every occasion.
I can see Warner taking the mickey a bit.
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Stokes showing that he does have plenty of value as a bowler with some good deliveries there.
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Stokes showing that he does have plenty of value as a bowler with some good deliveries there.
I think Stokes does have a lot of potential as a cricketer. I just think he's 18 months to 2 years away from being good enough.
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Quite possibly, but it's what you were saying - sometimes you have to throw the youngsters in, give them the taste for it and keep the faith that they'll get there. If only I could think of an example in football where some team was trying that...
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Oh yeah, I do think we should stick with Stokes, which will hopefully speed up his progression.
To be honest, I'd rather see us blood these younger players and struggle for a couple of years than see the current lot continually underperform
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This is really something. It's got the catastrophic splendor of a supernova with the dreariness of cold porridge. Only England bugger up quite this remarkably.
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In a strange way, I think getting beat 5-0 would be better than 3-2. If we were to come back and take advantage of an Australia team not caring about the dead rubbers then the players would all be spouting off about showing fight etc etc.
A 5-0 drubbing would be the accurate reflection and hopefully would result in some of these fair weather cricketers getting slaughtered
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They've given up and lets be honest cooks captaincy has been shit aswell
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Humiliating -shocking batting and shameful bowling - team selection poor and the whole staff and players should hang their heads in shame
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Maybe we'd benefit from appointing Michael Vaughan to the backroom staff. Not in place of anyone, just in addition. He could help imprint a more positive mindset and style, and help Cook with tactics and mentality.
I get the impression Vaughan is really enjoying this England performance and delighting in putting the boot in. I find him quote negative.
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Maybe we'd benefit from appointing Michael Vaughan to the backroom staff. Not in place of anyone, just in addition. He could help imprint a more positive mindset and style, and help Cook with tactics and mentality.
I get the impression Vaughan is really enjoying this England performance and delighting in putting the boot in. I find him quote negative.
Its pretty difficult to be positive about them at the moment in fairness
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In a strange way, I think getting beat 5-0 would be better than 3-2. If we were to come back and take advantage of an Australia team not caring about the dead rubbers then the players would all be spouting off about showing fight etc etc.
A 5-0 drubbing would be the accurate reflection and hopefully would result in some of these fair weather cricketers getting slaughtered
No, I think even at 3-2 we won't forget the crap that's been served up by England.
And, it's very much true that Australia are bad losers and even worse winners. At least if we won the last two, the incessant crowing might quieten down a bit.
The way this tour is going, we'll be lucky to get away with nil. It's almost ruined the memory of 2010/11 - the greatest Ashes series ever.
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It's also painful the way we've let that classless slogger Warner look like a test player.
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Priors keeping has been abysmal today. Buttler to come in next series?
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Priors keeping has been abysmal today. Buttler to come in next series?
For me definitely. Prior is having a shocking time with bat and gloves
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Priors keeping has been abysmal today. Buttler to come in next series?
If he can transfer his 20/20 hitting to the test arena, then yes. Otherwise, who else is out there? Heard Chris Read mentioned the other day - I didn't know he was still playing.
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Such depressing viewing - really couldn't have dreamt we would get hammered in this way in his series - as bad as anything I've seen - negative team selection - we had to take 20 wickets to win here and the bowlers selected carry as much threat as a sausage sandwich.
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Just seen the Jimmy Saville chap from the Barmy Army. He has grown a rather fetching goatee.
I do feel a bit sorry for him, he's spent 20 odd years modelling himself on Saville. He must have been absolutely devastated when all that came out.
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It might smack of over reaction but I'd like to see Prior, Swann and Pietersen moved on now and possibly Anderson. I wouldn't want a situation in a couple of years where a lot of players are past it and we haven't bedded in enough young blood gently.
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It might smack of over reaction but I'd like to see Prior, Swann and Pietersen moved on now and possibly Anderson. I wouldn't want a situation in a couple of years where a lot of players are past it and we haven't bedded in enough young blood gently.
I wouldn't be surprised to see flower walk away and pieterson too - I'm not sure they have the desire anymore - swann is past his best and Anderson will do a job on english test pitches which suit him - prior has reached the end of the road too.
I'm not sure how cook would react to a 5-0 beating - would he fight on and rebuild or prefer to just concentrate on his batting and relinquish the captaincy.
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It might smack of over reaction but I'd like to see Prior, Swann and Pietersen moved on now and possibly Anderson. I wouldn't want a situation in a couple of years where a lot of players are past it and we haven't bedded in enough young blood gently.
I wouldn't be surprised to see flower walk away and pieterson too - I'm not sure they have the desire anymore - swann is past his best and Anderson will do a job on english test pitches which suit him - prior has reached the end of the road too.
I'm not sure how cook would react to a 5-0 beating - would he fight on and rebuild or prefer to just concentrate on his batting and relinquish the captaincy.
If not Cook then who? I'm not a fan of Cook as captain, I think he's too reactive and when the team are struggling it sure has affected his batting but who else is there? Non of the elder statesmen are performing well enough to even be sure of a place in the side nevermind captaincy.
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I agree that there'd be a natural time to make a few changes following what will be a chastening experience for his team - they're going to be hammered again and again on this tour and they'll gring us into the dirt doing it.
The bottom line is, for all the criticism of our bowlers on this thread, we've batted poorly against what is a very good bowling attack (we have to give the Aussies credit for that). Johnson, Harris and Siddle work really well as a unit and for all the headlines about Johnson's wickets their stand out bowler is Ryan Harris (I think he'd get into most Aussie teams over the last 20 years as the first change, bowls 143-146 consistantly, averages 21 in Test cricket for wickets taken - great bowler IMO)
I actually feel sorry for our bowlers who must feel as though they've fielded forever on this tour.
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It might smack of over reaction but I'd like to see Prior, Swann and Pietersen moved on now and possibly Anderson. I wouldn't want a situation in a couple of years where a lot of players are past it and we haven't bedded in enough young blood gently.
I wouldn't be surprised to see flower walk away and pieterson too - I'm not sure they have the desire anymore - swann is past his best and Anderson will do a job on english test pitches which suit him - prior has reached the end of the road too.
I'm not sure how cook would react to a 5-0 beating - would he fight on and rebuild or prefer to just concentrate on his batting and relinquish the captaincy.
If not Cook then who? I'm not a fan of Cook as captain, I think he's too reactive and when the team are struggling it sure has affected his batting but who else is there? Non of the elder statesmen are performing well enough to even be sure of a place in the side nevermind captaincy.
Broad or Bell ?
I'm not calling for cook to be sacked but wondering if he may decide to relinquish the captaincy .
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Fucking terrible again England. I don't envy you Oz being surrounded by gloating Aussies!
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Fucking terrible again England. I don't envy you Oz being surrounded by gloating Aussies!
It's horrible it really is but to be fair I've been giving them a fair bit of stick over the last few years so I can't really complain to much.
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Well it looks as though England are not quite up to matching an average teat team that is Current Australia. This is worrying. Maybe players had started believing in all the hype that surrounded them and forgot about hard work required to win test matches. A rethink is required now.
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We were outplayed in New Zealand last winter so it's no huge surprise that we are getting a beating off a better team than the Kiwi's.
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Onions should've been picked for this tour. If England can somehow grind out a draw they should go for an all pace attack next. Rankin, Tremlett, Anderson and hopefully Broad if fit. Can't believe how badly England have performed against a very average team, particularly when you rewind 12 months when we beat India in their own backyard which is as tough as it gets.
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Absolutely pathetic and this has 5-0 written all over it. Our batsmen have failed completely. This series is the end of the line for this team and management, some of these players have lost the ability to play with sufficient ability or hunger.
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I've mainly kept off this thread as I knew it would just be a thesaurus of words for inept!
On any tour you can cope with two or three players being off-form as long as a couple of the senior players are on form and guiding the younger lads through, the problem here is that none of them are in any sort of nick. They haven't become bad players all of a sudden, some of these (Pietersen, Cook, Bell, Swann, Broad, Anderson) will go down as some of the best players we've ever had, for them all to be off-form at the same time is inexplicable and probably just pure bad luck.
The next couple of series, and definitely the one-dayers on this tour, should all be about bringing the next generation through. Cook can have one more series as captain, but we also need to be looking hard at who his successor will be. If he regains his form and England start to look like a team again then problem solved, he keeps it.
Anyway, seen it all before, I've seen comments on here that this is worse than the 90's, well in a way it is, this time we have talented players, back then we didn't have many, but we didn't just lose to a brilliant Australia back then, we lost to everyone...badly! This lot will bounce back and there is a nice conveyor belt of talent waiting to come in if they don't.
The selectors and coaches need to make some bold decisions, and I think they will. Sri Lanka and India over here in the summer will be a great opportunity to rebuild and bring the next generation through while we still have the likes of Cook, Bell, Broad and Swann as mentors.
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The last two defeats are the first time in consecutive tests in 107 years that we have lost by over 200 runs - anyone thinking it could be 3 in a row?
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I think there are senior players that still have lots to offer. Cook, Bell, Broad and Anderson still have plenty to offer. However the team needs a refresh, we're a bit like India were with too many players going over the hill at the same time. It's been coming a while though, the tour in NZ was a clue.
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Anyway, seen it all before, I've seen comments on here that this is worse than the 90's, well in a way it is, this time we have talented players, back then we didn't have many, but we didn't just lose to a brilliant Australia back then, we lost to everyone...badly! This lot will bounce back and there is a nice conveyor belt of talent waiting to come in if they don't.
On this tour, however, it seems that the team were just going through the motions from the off. There doesn't seem to be any heart at all. And most people are saying this tour is worse than anything from the 90s, not the team itself. And I agree. In all the previous maulings, there were usually one or two bright spots, or at least even if the talent wasn't there that they were trying their best.
But the way the wheels have fallen off on this tour is something else. Tours can go like this, because you are isolated in a strange country and problems have a habit of snowballing, but not to have a single glimmer of a bright spot? Only 2 batsmen have scored more than Mitchell Johnson. The bowling looks popgun. The keeper is mentally in a really bad place. Off the field you have a selection muddle.
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This is worse than the 90s, because the players have played so far below their capabilities. It's probably not an exaggeration to say that Prior and Pietersen have their careers on the line in the second innings in particular. I think Swann's gone already and Jimmy needs to start turning up. Broad's already out for the rest of the game anyway. This tour has to be rock bottom, and we must rebuild now because it has been an utter disgrace.
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I said even when we were winning that our run rates were too low and we didn't impose ourselves enough, and now sadly it's becoming apparent that we don't have the ability to put pressure on the opposition.
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If I were Cook I'd want several players out of that team now. He's clearly not in form but at least he has a couple of scores.
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Maybe we'd benefit from appointing Michael Vaughan to the backroom staff. Not in place of anyone, just in addition. He could help imprint a more positive mindset and style, and help Cook with tactics and mentality.
I get the impression Vaughan is really enjoying this England performance and delighting in putting the boot in. I find him quote negative.
In all fairness, I think that view is close to lunacy.
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I think Vaughan is hating it as much as any of us.
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I think Swann's gone already and Jimmy needs to start turning up. Broad's already out for the rest of the game anyway. This tour has to be rock bottom, and we must rebuild now because it has been an utter disgrace.
Jimmy has looked exhausted/lethargic for quite some time. Everyone was crying out for him to be rested for the Durham test last year and it being the perfect time to give Onions a go, but they went for same old, same old. Jimmy needs to recharge his batteries, because when he's "on", he's really on.
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How long do they need?
It's not like they play any county cricket is it and it's the same for both sides.
The ball isn't swinging for Jimmy and due to our batting efforts they get 60 overs in the sheds having bowled for 110 and they are back out there again.
To many living off reputations, too much of the "these are proven players whove done great things" talk after every days play from the England camp.
We've been no where near good enough. Prior and Swann in particular have been dreadful.
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And, it's very much true that Australia are bad losers and even worse winners. At least if we won the last two, the incessant crowing might quieten down a bit.
That's absolutely staggering. We've had to put up with your incessant crowing for the last few series, now you're getting your arses kicked you're crying like babies and we shouldn't mention it. Bad losers? lol, as I believe the kids say
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Fucking terrible again England. I don't envy you Oz being surrounded by gloating Aussies!
It's horrible it really is but to be fair I've been giving them a fair bit of stick over the last few years so I can't really complain to much.
Halleluijah, well said Oz
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And, it's very much true that Australia are bad losers and even worse winners. At least if we won the last two, the incessant crowing might quieten down a bit.
That's absolutely staggering. We've had to put up with your incessant crowing for the last few series, now you're getting your arses kicked you're crying like babies and we shouldn't mention it. Bad losers? lol, as I believe the kids say
In fairness I think both countries are pretty bad winners, Australia gave it out for fucking years and us English have been the same. I don't think either can try and claim any moral high ground.
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And, it's very much true that Australia are bad losers and even worse winners. At least if we won the last two, the incessant crowing might quieten down a bit.
That's absolutely staggering. We've had to put up with your incessant crowing for the last few series, now you're getting your arses kicked you're crying like babies and we shouldn't mention it. Bad losers? lol, as I believe the kids say
In fairness I think both countries are pretty bad winners, Australia gave it out for fucking years and us English have been the same. I don't think either can try and claim any moral high ground.
Spot on mate
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Not looking forward to us batting again later, i'm going to have to sedate myself with a few beers. Villa and England 3-0 on the same day :'(. I would love to just see two batsmen put together a proper partnership today and make runs in a proper manner, keep the board ticking over, get your singles, rotate the strike, move the field around. Not get pinned down and bullied surrounded by about 7 bloody slips.
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And, it's very much true that Australia are bad losers and even worse winners. At least if we won the last two, the incessant crowing might quieten down a bit.
That's absolutely staggering. We've had to put up with your incessant crowing for the last few series, now you're getting your arses kicked you're crying like babies and we shouldn't mention it. Bad losers? lol, as I believe the kids say
Come off it Willy old son. Some of the on and off field behaviour by the Aussies (Johnson and Warner in particular) has been especially bad and I can't remember instances of English players behaving that way. That said, fair play to Australia. It's been embarassingly one sided so far.
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And, it's very much true that Australia are bad losers and even worse winners. At least if we won the last two, the incessant crowing might quieten down a bit.
That's absolutely staggering. We've had to put up with your incessant crowing for the last few series, now you're getting your arses kicked you're crying like babies and we shouldn't mention it. Bad losers? lol, as I believe the kids say
Come off it Willy old son. Some of the on and off field behaviour by the Aussies (Johnson and Warner in particular) has been especially bad and I can't remember instances of English players behaving that way. That said, fair play to Australia. It's been embarassingly one sided so far.
Seriously, tell me what Johnson has done, apart from bowling aggressively and taking a lot of wickets? Warner said during the first test that he thought he could see fear in Trott's eyes and given his subsequent return home with stress issues he probably wasn't that wide of the mark. I'm pretty sure that, had he been aware of the extent of Trott's problems, he might have chosen his words more carefully but it's hardly up there in Lance Armstrong territory is it? It's always been a hard fought contest between England and Australia and players on both sides have stated that nothing worse than normal has gone on so I genuinely can't see what the problem is
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And, it's very much true that Australia are bad losers and even worse winners. At least if we won the last two, the incessant crowing might quieten down a bit.
That's absolutely staggering. We've had to put up with your incessant crowing for the last few series, now you're getting your arses kicked you're crying like babies and we shouldn't mention it. Bad losers? lol, as I believe the kids say
Come off it Willy old son. Some of the on and off field behaviour by the Aussies (Johnson and Warner in particular) has been especially bad and I can't remember instances of English players behaving that way. That said, fair play to Australia. It's been embarassingly one sided so far.
Seriously, tell me what Johnson has done, apart from bowling aggressively and taking a lot of wickets? Warner said during the first test that he thought he could see fear in Trott's eyes and given his subsequent return home with stress issues he probably wasn't that wide of the mark. I'm pretty sure that, had he been aware of the extent of Trott's problems, he might have chosen his words more carefully but it's hardly up there in Lance Armstrong territory is it? It's always been a hard fought contest between England and Australia and players on both sides have stated that nothing worse than normal has gone on so I genuinely can't see what the problem is
Agree to an extent but what Warner said was completely out of order - you don't talk like that about other players during games full stop. I'm sure a few of the England lads now regret not tweeting about Warners antics in the Walkabout rather than adopting the diplomatic "it's a Cricket Australia matter" that they did.
Separate issue but the Courier Mail has been a disgrace, no wonder Queensland has a reputation for being bogans with that rag around.
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It's been white flag stuff hasn't it. The fielding today and yesterday is probably some of the worst for 20 years and as for Cooks captaincy i'll leave that analysis to Warne.
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And, it's very much true that Australia are bad losers and even worse winners. At least if we won the last two, the incessant crowing might quieten down a bit.
That's absolutely staggering. We've had to put up with your incessant crowing for the last few series, now you're getting your arses kicked you're crying like babies and we shouldn't mention it. Bad losers? lol, as I believe the kids say
Shame on you wombat ;)
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I feel for Cooke, to get a delivery like that first ball up was desperate. He must feel like shit at the moment
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What really annoys me is that this Aussie team isn't a patch on the one with Warne, McGrath, et al yet this series is more one sided than any we played against that side, even the one we lost in a whitewash.
The reversal in fortune from the Summer, in such a short space of time, has got to be one of the most dramatic in any sport ever.
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120-4 - and broad wont bat so every chance it will end today - really poor display again by England and the Aussies are the better team by far in this test too.
Warner's ludicrous celebrating in priors face yesterday was a other example of what a vile piece of shit he is , there are a few Aussies who show respect like Harris, Lyon etc but too many follow the example of their loose cannon tosser of a captain.
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120-4 - and broad wont bat so every chance it will end today - really poor display again by England and the Aussies are the better team by far in this test too.
Warner's ludicrous celebrating in priors face yesterday was a other example of what a vile piece of shit he is , there are a few Aussies who show respect like Harris, Lyon etc but too many follow the example of their loose cannon tosser of a captain.
Biffo or whatever they call that fat ****** Lehman is a bell end of the highest order aswell, bunch of pikeys. Pietersen really angers me, it's like he just can't be bothered with this test match malarkey anymore.
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Not sure what was worse seeing Anderson hit for a record total in an over and going for 77 runs in his last 4 overs or seeing cook out 1st ball or the shocking fielding calamities on offer - worst ever England fielding display as beefy and warne described it .
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Not sure what was worse seeing Anderson hit for a record total in an over and going for 77 runs in his last 4 overs or seeing cook out 1st ball or the shocking fielding calamities on offer - worst ever England fielding display as beefy and warne described it .
Oh the fielding no doubt. You have to give the Aussies credit for the great batting from Bailey against Anderson and a superb ball from Harris that would have got players in far better nick than Cook is out.
England's fielding throughout this tour has been embarrassing tbh.
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Stokes looks like he might have a bit about him, not as a number 6 mind you but I like the look of him as a bit of a bowling all rounder.
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Stokes is at least brining a positive out of all this wreckage. However this tour is a fucking disaster and we've been absolutely battered.
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Never know -d bell and stokes get a double century each we may win ;)
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First target 304, I couldn't bear losing 3 in a row by over 200, that would be a record that would stand for a LONG time. Just stuck a quid on the England win!
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Never know -d bell and stokes get a double century each we may win ;)
Only 300 to go, we can do this!
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Good to see it's taken the dying embers for us to finally realise you need to attack with the bat. Well done Stokes and Bell though.
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That's twice now I've got up and somehow worked out how to watch the cricket via my son's X Box and said to my partner that Pietersen will be out within the next dozen deliveries and he has been. If I can see it thousands of miles away it's hardly surprising the Aussies get him. I really hope they drop him for the next Test.
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That's torn it
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Thus far coming out of this series the way I see it -
Those who have shown enough to move forward -
- Carberry
- Root
- Bell
- Stokes
- Broad
Those who I'll give the benefit -
- Cook - He's got a couple of scores in spite of being in bad form, and it's harder being captain.
- Anderson - Just about but more on past glories, needs to improve quickly.
Those who are staring down the barrel -
- Prior
- KP - too many starts thrown away
- Swann - Seems to have lost his ability to do much at all.
- Trott - no fault of his own, but it'll be very tough for him to come back for the sake of his health.
- Tremlett - gone over the hill
- KP
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Bell gone, start the car. Another start with an English player who can't go on further.
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There's the match, the ashes and my quid gone.
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I'm of the opinion that had the normal amount of time elapsed between Ashes series, England would not have been as undercooked as this. Combined with an Australia who will never have been as motivated, the loss if not the humiliation was inevitable.
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Bell has had a 72, 60 and a 32
Pietersen has had 53, 45, 36
Cook 72, 45
Carberry 40, 60, 43, 31
Root 87, 26
Stokes 28, 60
14 decent starts and none converted into a single ton. Concentration issues? Pressure? Just good nagging bowling?
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I'm of the opinion that had the normal amount of time elapsed between Ashes series, England would not have been as undercooked as this. Combined with an Australia who will never have been as motivated, the loss if not the humiliation was inevitable.
I feel the same way. I've said this before, but I cannot overestimate how pumped up the Australian nation has been for this series and that's basically due to them getting the return leg, the Broad non walk which was used by Lehmann and the media to cast Broad as the villain that crowds could target and the fact that they convinced themselves that somehow 3-0 in England was some great injustice.
It's been quite an eye opener and ive lived here for years now. I think it took England by surprise and allowed Australia to gain early momentum - the one thing we couldn't afford.
Once this had happened, they were in deep trouble.
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Thus far coming out of this series the way I see it -
Those who have shown enough to move forward -
- Carberry
- Root
- Bell
- Stokes
- Broad
Those who I'll give the benefit -
- Cook - He's got a couple of scores in spite of being in bad form, and it's harder being captain.
- Anderson - Just about but more on past glories, needs to improve quickly.
Those who are staring down the barrel -
- Prior
- KP - too many starts thrown away
- Swann - Seems to have lost his ability to do much at all.
- Trott - no fault of his own, but it'll be very tough for him to come back for the sake of his health.
- Tremlett - gone over the hill
- KP
I think that a fair appraisal. I just don't think they jettison either Swann or Pietersen unless they decide to give it away - can see KP pissing off to take the IPL money tbh.
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This morning and our bowling display summed up our tour, completely shambolic. It allowed them to get an extra 40 odd minutes to bowl and Anderson was taken for a world record total in an over. Terrible.
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This morning and our bowling display summed up our tour, completely shambolic. It allowed them to get an extra 40 odd minutes to bowl and Anderson was taken for a world record total in an over. Terrible.
77 in 4 overs off Anderson is quite a shocking stat.
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It's not necessarily permanent in the long-term, but Anderson and Swann seriously need to be rested (or 'dropped' as it was once known) for the Boxing Day test.
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Both Anderson and Swann have been shit since they thought they were above cricket and started being radio presenters.The ECB should have told them to concentrate on cricket.
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I think Anderson and Swann should be dropped, as a message needs to be sent. I think Swann would be a more permanent thing, but Anderson needs to be shown this isn't good enough.
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I think Anderson and Swann should be dropped, as a message needs to be sent. I think Swann would be a more permanent thing, but Anderson needs to be shown this isn't good enough.
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I told you both should have been dropped for this test in favour of monty and Finn and you insisted swann and jimmy should play ;)
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I think the only two positives out of this tour are that Stokes has shown he could be our long term solution at 6. His bowling will only improve and it's pretty useful already and his batting really impressed me today. I also think Carberry could be a pretty good opener for a couple of years.
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I think the only two positives out of this tour are that Stokes has shown he could be our long term solution at 6. His bowling will only improve and it's pretty useful already and his batting really impressed me today. I also think Carberry could be a pretty good opener for a couple of years.
Stokes has remained very calm and measured throughout the despair and carnage about him, as has Carberry. Also, Bell continues to look as good as he can, which is a small plus.
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I think Anderson and Swann should be dropped, as a message needs to be sent. I think Swann would be a more permanent thing, but Anderson needs to be shown this isn't good enough.
I feel a bit sorry for Anderson tbh. They get no support from the batsmen at all and the Aussies can tee off at them in the 2nd innings and make them look stupid. Warner, Watson can really hurt you on these decks as they just hit through the line. If it ain't swinging then they can just line Anderson up with little risk as they've so many runs to play with.
They must be knackered too, they've been in the field so much in hot conditions .
If we are pointing the finger anywhere, it's the batters and fielding way before we get to the bowling.
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I think Anderson and Swann should be dropped, as a message needs to be sent. I think Swann would be a more permanent thing, but Anderson needs to be shown this isn't good enough.
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I told you both should have been dropped for this test in favour of monty and Finn and you insisted swann and jimmy should play ;)
Doesn't it say something about how Finn must be bowling that he hasn't featured at all yet?
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And can we please drop KP as well. He's always been a prick, now he's one that's crap at cricket as well.
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I think Anderson and Swann should be dropped, as a message needs to be sent. I think Swann would be a more permanent thing, but Anderson needs to be shown this isn't good enough.
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I told you both should have been dropped for this test in favour of monty and Finn and you insisted swann and jimmy should play ;)
Doesn't it say something about how Finn must be bowling that he hasn't featured at all yet?
Possibly but it says a lot about the misplaced loyalty of flower - he insisted he was not afraid to drop big names and make changes and the n brought in Bresnan for monty - hardly inspiring.
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Carberry has looked decent in very tough conditions. 1st Ashes series and away, hostile environment and hostile bowling, batsmen crumbling left right and centre and he's made 4 30's+ in 6 innings, he needs to go on from there. I can see him scoring some runs in the home series next year.
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Carberry has looked decent in very tough conditions. 1st Ashes series and away, hostile environment and hostile bowling, batsmen crumbling left right and centre and he's made 4 30's in 6 innings, he needs to go on from there. I can see him scoring some runs in the home series next year.
Yes worth keeping in the side - root is scoring extremely slowly at 3 - I think maybe bell needs to step in at 3 and root drop back to 5 - bell is too often stranded with the tailend and he is a good stroke player who keeps the run rate ticking over .
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It was because of his strike rate that I thought he would be better down the order. It builds up too much pressure and by the time Bell gets to the crease the damage is usually already done.
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It was because of his strike rate that I thought he would be better down the order. It builds up too much pressure and by the time Bell gets to the crease the damage is usually already done.
Yep I wanted Bell at 3 for this test aswell. I think they well and truly bottled making any decisions this test, took the tried and tested drop monty for Bresnan 0 risk 0 reward strategy and shuffle Root again. From the Management to the Captain they are a very cautious bunch.
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The fielding was comical in the extreme today - stuff you wouldn't see in village cricket at times and quite extraordinary at test level - I don't think in over 40 years of watching cricket I have seen such an awful fielding display - really is a tour I can't wait to end .
I'm not a one day person and test cricket is all that interests me on this tour - time to salvage some pride in the remaining tests.
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Too cautious. Changes are needed and I hope the ECB are giving it serious consideration as to just how far to go with the changes and how to develop the side over the next few series.
I'll be interested in the ODI's and 20/20's. Usually whoever wins the Ashes, the other side does well in the shorter form of the game. ODI's have also become a big way of bringing in young talent through too so I will be interested in seeing some of our younger talent after seeing what the old guard have become.
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I think Anderson and Swann should be dropped, as a message needs to be sent. I think Swann would be a more permanent thing, but Anderson needs to be shown this isn't good enough.
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I told you both should have been dropped for this test in favour of monty and Finn and you insisted swann and jimmy should play ;)
Doesn't it say something about how Finn must be bowling that he hasn't featured at all yet?
Indeed and in fairness Anderson has been excellent for a while prior to Trent Bridge, which isn't that long ago. They possible got the selection wrong, but let's face it if teams are teeing off against us Finn will get smashed more than anyone the way he's been bowling.
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Root can score very quickly once he's in, I wouldn't worry that much about his scoring rate at number 3.
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I think Anderson and Swann should be dropped, as a message needs to be sent. I think Swann would be a more permanent thing, but Anderson needs to be shown this isn't good enough.
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I told you both should have been dropped for this test in favour of monty and Finn and you insisted swann and jimmy should play ;)
Doesn't it say something about how Finn must be bowling that he hasn't featured at all yet?
Indeed and in fairness Anderson has been excellent for a while prior to Trent Bridge, which isn't that long ago. They possible got the selection wrong, but let's face it if teams are teeing off against us Finn will get smashed more than anyone the way he's been bowling.
Would get more bounce and pace though and more wickets i daresay in Perth .
I can't see broad playing in Melbourne due to injury so it will be interesting to see who comes in .
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I hope Stokes gets his 100 he really deserves it.
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I hope Stokes gets his 100 he really deserves it.
It would be something for the barmy army to celebrate and provide a much needed lift to many .
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As I say one of the very few positives of this tour is that we may have finally solved our number 6 issue.
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As I say one of the very few positives of this tour is that we may have finally solved our number 6 issue.
Yep and have the option of someone who might develop into a genuine all rounder in the side. Whether he bats at six might depend on Prior's eventual sucessor. Would Buttler or Kieswetter be a better bet at six with Stokes at seven.
This series has been a disaster so ar, but I'm looking forward to seeing how the likes Root and Stokes develop in the coming years.
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And can we please drop KP as well. He's always been a prick, now he's one that's crap at cricket as well.
I think he could well be finished in the test match environment. Just doesn't look like he has got the application to play a test innings any more and seems far more interested in trying to be the big man and hit bowlers into the stands. Of course his mates in the media (Gough, Botham etc.) will trot out the old "well that's just the way he plays" line, but it's not going to wash this time.
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From the Ashes on ITV 4 now.
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If Stokes gets to his hundred, then a good barometer of his character will be the way he celebrates it.
I will not be impressed if starts fist pumping the air or hugging Prior. This is another crushing defeat.
I've liked the look of him so far, and he's been one of a very select few to show fight in this series. So hopefully, if he gets there it'll be a highly reserved moment.
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If Stokes gets to his hundred, then a good barometer of his character will be the way he celebrates it.
I will not be impressed if starts fist pumping the air or hugging Prior. This is another crushing defeat.
I've liked the look of him so far, and he's been one of a very select few to show fight in this series. So hopefully, if he gets there it'll be a highly reserved moment.
I know what you mean, and I like it when players show seriousness and awareness of the situation, but a maiden test century is something I think we can forgive people for celebrating a little wildly.
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Yeah I suppose it is slightly different to when Pietersen does it regardless of the situation.
Stokes temperament has been his most impressive attribute thus far, so I just hope he continues that.
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Yeah I suppose it is slightly different to when Pietersen does it regardless of the situation.
Stokes temperament has been his most impressive attribute thus far, so I just hope he continues that.
That's very true. Pieterson's got more test hundreds than Wally Hammond, you'd think he'd be thinking about the team by now.
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I think people were more willing to tolerate Pietersen's arrogance and selfishness when he was occasionally putting in a performance. To see him still swaggering around like he's Bradman whilst playing like a cretin is pretty galling.
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That looked almost a replay of the Simon Jones injury.
What is it with Australia and their poorly prepared outfields.?
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This won't take long now. Just hope the tail can hang around long enough for Stokes to get his century.
Not good enough again from Prior, who has one acceptable innings in his last 16.
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Despite the defeat, I'm strangely relieved that it's all over tbh.
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Well done Stokes and a bit of fight from a few others, too little too late again I suppose. Great day for Aussies, big up the Barmies for some great support again. Time to crack one open I think! :D
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Despite the defeat, I'm strangely relieved that it's all over tbh.
Join in the party Oz, may as well make the best of a bad situation!
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Well done Stokes and a bit of fight from a few others, too little too late again I suppose. Great day for Aussies, big up the Barmies for some great support again. Time to crack one open I think! :D
Congratulations mate - you outplayed us in all areas and totally deserve the 3-0 lead - take good care of those ashes because we will have them back next time you visit ;)
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Well done stokesy - showed the rest how to do it and a great prospect for our future .
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Well it's been a really unenjoyable watch hasn't it. Virtually every single day outplayed apart from the first 2 sessions when we've bowled first innings and had them struggling and could have got them for under 200 twice and 300 the other time with a bit more disciplined bowling and attacking captaincy, instead they went on to add hundreds of runs.
I won't be watching the rest now, even a couple of good performances won't cover what has been a bottling tour showing very little application, guts, imagination and competency that's New Zealand, South Africa and Australia who have outplayed us in the last 6 series so it's been coming.
Well done the Aussies, you still look silly in you're floppy green caps though :P
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Well my call that Stokes should have started the series seems to be about right! Well done Ben you showed all of our senior batsmen how to play. He attacked the right balls and played straight to the rest. He also got a start and went on to a big score.
Now for the rest of the wreckage, well played Australia as you've battered us. England moving forward, I'm not generally a fan of wholesale changes but I think a statement needs to be made for the next Test. I'd drop Pietersen, Prior, Anderson and Swann and bring in Ballance, Rankin, Panesar and I'd call up Buttler. There needs to be a realisation from the senior players that you can't play dreadfully and keep your place.
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Well my call that Stokes should have started the series seems to be about right! Well done Ben you showed all of our senior batsmen how to play. He attacked the right balls and played straight to the rest. He also got a start and went on to a big score.
Now for the rest of the wreckage, well played Australia as you've battered us. England moving forward, I'm not generally a fan of wholesale changes but I think a statement needs to be made for the next Test. I'd drop Pietersen, Prior, Anderson and Swann and bring in Ballance, Rankin, Panesar and I'd call up Buttler. There needs to be a realisation from the senior players that you can't play dreadfully and keep your place.
I suppose having made so many wrong calls this series you had to get one right eventually ;)
Having seen flowers post match interview I am pretty sure he will walk away after this series although I felt he would go win or lose after this tour.
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Cheers Eastie, makes a nice change to beat England and we're all stoked. Love the battle and I'm sure you'll be back soon enough :)
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I don't think I was necessarily wrong saying Anderson and Swann should play, with that number of wickets between them you'd give them a chance. Unfortunately those two along with several senior players have badly let us down.
I do wonder whether Cook can remain an opening batsmen and be captain. Carberry has shown enough to suggest he can play in this transitional period, maybe Root can open and Cook go to three.
If Flower does walk it'll be a shame after all he's done for English cricket that this will stain that legacy, but we need to be much more assertive with our cricket.
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Will someone dig up Gooch as well and tell him his services aren't required.
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Yeah Gooch does need to go. I also hope that Giles doesn't take over the Test team if Flower goes, because I think we need fresh ideas from outside the England bubble. We need to adopt a much more dominant style of cricket. The plus side is there are a lot of good young players coming through, but we need to get them playing in the right way.
The positive of all this is that no-one can pretend things are ok in the England team now like they did when we where winning. In reality this team started to run out of steam some time ago, there's been a couple of good series in that time but we've been slipping for a while. This is now an opportunity to address all those issues and rebuild the team.
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If Flower is staying he needs to make clear that that's the case and the rebuilding has to start from now.
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If Flower is staying he needs to make clear that that's the case and the rebuilding has to start from now.
It interested me in the summer when asked about getting back to number one in the rankings that flower said it was no longer a priority as we had achieved it already , I wonder if maybe there's not the hunger and desire in this squad anymore with the likes of kp, swann , prior, etc.
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I don't think I was necessarily wrong saying Anderson and Swann should play, with that number of wickets between them you'd give them a chance. Unfortunately those two along with several senior players have badly let us down.
Again, disappointing as Swann was, the bowling was not the reason we've lost so heavily. We didn't take our chances in the field and the batsmen gave them no back up whatsoever.
We spent an enormous amount of time in the field thanks to poor batting and the bowlers were on a hiding to nothing quite frankly on flat pitches against 20/20 specialists with a 200+ lead every time.
We bowled them out sub 300 at the Gabba, if we'd held our chances it'd been something similar at Adelaide and a great knock from Smith got them out of trouble at the WACA. On every occasion the batting failed after 60 overs and they were back in the field again. They must be exhausted.
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Will someone dig up Gooch as well and tell him his services aren't required.
He has been a disaster.I don't give a fuck if the players think he is such a nice guy he deserves to be there,he did fuck all at Essex and has taken England's batting back 15 years.I called the prick out before.the series started,if I could see it why couldn't the England bigwigs see it.Rant over.
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If Flower is staying he needs to make clear that that's the case and the rebuilding has to start from now.
It interested me in the summer when asked about getting back to number one in the rankings that flower said it was no longer a priority as we had achieved it already , I wonder if maybe there's not the hunger and desire in this squad anymore with the likes of kp, swann , prior, etc.
That was something I noticed in the summer, I was pretty alarmed when Flower said that. The goal should always be to be the number 1 in the world. It shouldn't just be to get there and then think job's done. Like the great Australian side you need to maintain your standards to have a great legacy.
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I've said before i'd like Vaughan to be at least asked to come in. He has obvious leadership, understanding of how to build a side mentally and one of the keenest cricket brains around - which would help Cook's captaincy.
He also knows a thing or two about how to play and develop all-rounders, which is useful as we have some player on our hands here in Stokes.
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I think more of the blame lies with the batsmen definitely, but the bowlers have to take their share. We have consistently let Australia off the hook from precarious positions, and that's way before they can be excused for being tired. I think the standards across all three areas of the game were very low.
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I think Swann, KP, Prior and Anderson should be dropped, as much to make a statement as anything else. I'm not saying that's it that's the end of their careers, but I think all of them need to show they have the hunger to get back to the top again. I'm not so worried about age, look at Carberry he's 33 but he's done ok and applied himself. He needs to get 100s but he's shown enough desire to stay in the team. It's all about what these players want.
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I think more of the blame lies with the batsmen definitely, but the bowlers have to take their share. We have consistently let Australia off the hook from precarious positions, and that's way before they can be excused for being tired. I think the standards across all three areas of the game were very low.
Agreed , twice we had them at 150-5 and let them off the hook , lets see if we can salvage some pride in the last 2 tests although I think a changing of staff is inevitable after this series .
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Just glad it happened over there rather than over here.
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Whilst people are congratulating themselves on getting something right. A long time ago I suggested England getting some Aussie bloke in as a coach, chap called Lehmann, no idea what became of him. I used to love watching him play for Yorkshire and he would always be encouraging the younger players, always hoped he would return to the county some day, shame he didn't pursue a career in coaching.
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Whilst people are congratulating themselves on getting something right. A long time ago I suggested England getting some Aussie bloke in as a coach, chap called Lehmann, no idea what became of him. I used to love watching him play for Yorkshire and he would always be encouraging the younger players, always hoped he would return to the county some day, shame he didn't pursue a career in coaching.
He's done a fantastic job so far, and I think we need more aggression and to be a lot more proactive.
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Come the start of India's tour over here I think our side should look something like -
Carberry
Root
Cook
Bell
Ballance
Stokes
Buttler
Broad
Anderson/Onions
Finn
Panesar
There are lots of young players coming through, but I don't think we want to rush them through so come the next Ashes the likes of Lees, Robson, Mills, Overton might well be involved. I'm not shutting the door on KP and Prior but they need to show they want it.
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Seems a reasonable side and with Broad at 8 it has a reasonable depth of batting.
I'm unconvinced by Finn and Monty worries me. Of all of the players who are nearing the end of their careers, we'll miss Swann the most.
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Seems a reasonable side and with Broad at 8 it has a reasonable depth of batting.
I'm unconvinced by Finn and Monty worries me. Of all of the players who are nearing the end of their careers, we'll miss Swann the most.
Finn needs to be back by the squad as a whole and he'll become a great bowler, he needs to be told 'you're the strike bowler, if you take wickets but go at 4 an over that's ok'. Monty is decent, but I'm hoping Borthwick's spin comes on and then you've got a player who can bat and bowl spin.
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Seems a reasonable side and with Broad at 8 it has a reasonable depth of batting.
I'm unconvinced by Finn and Monty worries me. Of all of the players who are nearing the end of their careers, we'll miss Swann the most.
Finn needs to be back by the squad as a whole and he'll become a great bowler, he needs to be told 'you're the strike bowler, if you take wickets but go at 4 an over that's ok'. Monty is decent, but I'm hoping Borthwick's spin comes on and then you've got a player who can bat and bowl spin.
Finn has age on his side but needs to work on his game overall. Sides will try and blast him out of the attack and he can/does go to pieces.
There's a young quicky at Essex whose name escapes me who is supposed to be a bit tasty. Time for a bit of fast tracking I think.
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There's a young quicky at Essex whose name escapes me who is supposed to be a bit tasty. Time for a bit of fast tracking I think.
Tymal Mills?
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There's a young quicky at Essex whose name escapes me who is supposed to be a bit tasty. Time for a bit of fast tracking I think.
Tymal Mills?
Yes that's him. Reported to be the quickest bowler on the county circuit. Left arm who bowls at over 90mph would be a handful.
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Interesting to see bob willis team for Melbourne-
Cook
Root
Bell
Pieterson
Ballance
Bairstow
Stokes
Broad
Finn
Anderson
Panesar
I thought it was a bit harsh to leave carberry out but as bob pointed out its time to look to the future and carberry is approaching his mid 30s now.
I doubt broad will be fit for Melbourne either .
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Mills looks a prospect but he needs to start getting game time for Essex before he plays for England. Jamie Overton looks really good as well. As regards Finn I think England use him wrong, they try and make him another Bresnan like a holding bowler with more pace. Stokes allows us to bowl Finn in the correct way, very much like Australia use Johnson. You bowl him in 4 over spells and say 'come in and bowl fast and hostile' he'll take wickets and if he gets hit too much you can take him off. Finn isn't a bowler you want bowling long, draining spells.
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Interesting to see bob willis team for Melbourne-
Cook
Root
Bell
Pieterson
Ballance
Bairstow
Stokes
Broad
Finn
Anderson
Panesar
I thought it was a bit harsh to leave carberry out but as bob pointed out its time to look to the future and carberry is approaching his mid 30s now.
I doubt broad will be fit for Melbourne either .
I don't think you need to look too far to the future, Carberry shouldn't be dropped as it sends completely the wrong message. He's done ok and he's still got at least a couple of years in him if he performs.
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I agree pwa, Finn can be very important for us but he needs to 1 of 5 not 1 of 4, Englands biggest issue for a long time is that we've not had a genuine all rounder for a while, given his start Stokes deserves the opportunity to fill that gap.
I also think that Prior needs to drop out, he's been poor for at least a year now, it's just a shame that Bairstow is the only option in the squad to replace him, I'd be looking at Buttler first as he's an excellent keeper and he gives us an aggressive option with the bat (as well as having better technique than he gets credit for).
I'd keep Carberry in because I think Root will benefit more from a run at 3 than as an opener. Carberry will retire in a year or 2 which will be a great time to promote Root.
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I agree with the Pauls. It is just great to have a real all-round option again. He may of course fail in the long run, but he looks the real thing.
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I agree pwa, Finn can be very important for us but he needs to 1 of 5 not 1 of 4, Englands biggest issue for a long time is that we've not had a genuine all rounder for a while, given his start Stokes deserves the opportunity to fill that gap.
I also think that Prior needs to drop out, he's been poor for at least a year now, it's just a shame that Bairstow is the only option in the squad to replace him, I'd be looking at Buttler first as he's an excellent keeper and he gives us an aggressive option with the bat (as well as having better technique than he gets credit for).
I'd keep Carberry in because I think Root will benefit more from a run at 3 than as an opener. Carberry will retire in a year or 2 which will be a great time to promote Root.
Disagree. Get Root in at opener after this series and let him get experience batting there.
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Carberry has earned the chance to stay there, Root has already shown he struggles a bit opening at this stage of his career. If Carberry and Cook can form a solid partnership over the next couple of years it'll give Root the perfect platform.
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Stokes actually probably has more potential than Flintoff did, he's a better and more technical batsmen he just needs to work on his accuracy as a bowler.
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Carberry has earned the chance to stay there, Root has already shown he struggles a bit opening at this stage of his career. If Carberry and Cook can form a solid partnership over the next couple of years it'll give Root the perfect platform.
Root is still very young and he's having issues pacing his innings, a few times he's been bogged down and seen his rate down around 20%. The pressure on him from that is huge. With Carberry looking to go at 70-80% or better as an opener it's less of an issue if Root comes in and start a bit slowly as whoever he's with from the rest of the top 4 can score at a decent rate at the other end (although Cook has been a bit worrying recently and really needs to get his mind on his batting and get a big score in Sydney or Melbourne), this was the big issue with him being up there with Trott who also has a tendency to get bogged down at times (but at his best has the quality to make up for it later).
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Cook's form this year is a worry, but I'm confident that he can recover. What I'm not sure on is whether he can captain and open at the same time, it may be that Root may switch roles with Cook. Carberry though plays at a good rate and is good to have at the top of the order, he could do with converting his good starts into a century or two though.
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I wish we had a couple of batsmen who could bat for 1 or 2 days rather than worry about how quickly they can score.
*edit Forgot the all important word 'days'.
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There's been a pattern of Cook getting out early whenever we've been in the field a long time and there's been no recovery time. I'm not a fan of having an opener captain the side.
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I like the idea of Carberry and Root opening with Cook at 3. It's plain to see that the amount of time Cook has spent in the field in this series has had an impact on him as an opening batsman. Root has proven himself as an opener for Yorkshire and I'm sure that an extended run at the top of the order for England will see him flourish into a very fine batsman.
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I do see bob willis point though that we need to be rebuilding for the future and carberry approaching his mid 30s will not be around long - we may suffer a few beatings as the Aussies did as we blood a few young players but it is time now to look ahead - we have enjoyed a golden era and flower and the players will long be remembered for it - but that time is gone now and to coin a praise ' we need hungry vibrant players and then we can go again '.
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I think we need to be careful not to have a knee jerk reaction. The Aussies have done very well this series, but they've hardly rushed in a load of 20 year olds. I think it's important to balance planning for the future with results in the now. Carberry is looking fairly solid at the moment, so I see no need to make a change for the sake of it. He's just 33, he'll only be 34 come the next Ashes. I agree on bringing players in if they're ready, like Stokes, but only if they're ready.
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The turn around in the Aussies fortunes have coincided with the appointment of a new coach and bowlers executing their bowling plan to perfection.
This suggests that we need to look at our coaching set up which seems to have become complacent and the complacency has spread to the players.
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I suspect Flower might be going given that he's refusing to commit beyond the last 2 Tests.
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I suspect Flower might be going given that he's refusing to commit beyond the last 2 Tests.
If he does go, which I think he will, we need to look outside the current set up for a replacement. I'd give Tom Moody a go.
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I suspect Flower might be going given that he's refusing to commit beyond the last 2 Tests.
If he does go, which I think he will, we need to look outside the current set up for a replacement. I'd give Tom Moody a go.
Good call- I would hope its not ashley Giles and I have a lot of time for ash but this is not the time for him.
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I suspect Flower might be going given that he's refusing to commit beyond the last 2 Tests.
If he does go, which I think he will, we need to look outside the current set up for a replacement. I'd give Tom Moody a go.
Good call- I would hope its not ashley Giles and I have a lot of time for ash but this is not the time for him.
I agree. We need fresh ideas and if we can tempt Moody away from the IPL then he'd be ideal.
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I'm certain that Flower is going, I just hope he takes Gooch with him, our struggles with the bat have coincided far too neatly with his appointment for my liking.
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I'm certain that Flower is going, I just hope he takes Gooch with him, our struggles with the bat have coincided far too neatly with his appointment for my liking.
Indeed. I think Saker's time is up too. Graeme Welch is doing a great job with the bowlers at Edgbaston, he'd be worth a shout as bowling coach.
My ideal coaching set up would be Moody, Welch and Graeme Thorpe who is part of the development team.
If Moody isn't tempted then I'd have Michael Vaughan. He was an innovative captain and would have the respect of the players for what he achieved as a player.
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I'm certain that Flower is going, I just hope he takes Gooch with him, our struggles with the bat have coincided far too neatly with his appointment for my liking.
New man , clean sweep of staff and a new era for me - I think flower had made his mind up in the summer that he was going to go after this series and its sad he will leave on a low note as he's been great for us.
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I'm not sure Saker should go, we have on the whole bowled very well up to this series. However our batting has gone downhill since Gooch became full time batting coach.
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Carberry has earned the chance to stay there, Root has already shown he struggles a bit opening at this stage of his career. If Carberry and Cook can form a solid partnership over the next couple of years it'll give Root the perfect platform.
Not sure he has done as well as Compton did and he still got moved on. I'd probably keep Carberry at opener for the remainder of the series, but have a major rethink after that. I'd move Bell up to three for the remaining two tests and bat Root at five to take the pressure off him a little.
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Carberry is a liability in the field!
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I'm not sure Saker should go, we have on the whole bowled very well up to this series. However our batting has gone downhill since Gooch became full time batting coach.
A new coach must choose his own specialist coaches , not inherit the old ones - time to sweep the board clean and look ahead to the future .
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Carberry has earned the chance to stay there, Root has already shown he struggles a bit opening at this stage of his career. If Carberry and Cook can form a solid partnership over the next couple of years it'll give Root the perfect platform.
Not sure he has done as well as Compton did and he still got moved on. I'd probably keep Carberry at opener for the remainder of the series, but have a major rethink after that. I'd move Bell up to three for the remaining two tests and bat Root at five to take the pressure off him a little.
Carberry has done ok - hardly set the world alight though and not made a really big score - poor fielder and in his mid 30s - the future is root and cook for me and now we have sorted the number 6 spot with stokes I'd be happy to see bell at 3 .
Bring in ballance at 5 and Bairstow for prior and there are stronger batting options.
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I'm not sure Saker should go, we have on the whole bowled very well up to this series. However our batting has gone downhill since Gooch became full time batting coach.
I agree with you about Gooch but think that Saker should go.
They have bowled well at times and had the Aussies 130-odd for 6 in Adelaide. What we have not been able to do for some time is finish sides off. The coach must take responsibility for that.
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Compton could be an option if he relaxes and gets his scoring rate going.
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Saker has coached what was deemed one of the best bowling units in world cricket and there has been an upturn since he got involved overall. Gooch it's quite the opposite. Also cricket isn't like football, head coaches don't often have a group of coaches who follow them around. Gooch should go, I don't think Saker should go.
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Saker has coached what was deemed one of the best bowling units in world cricket and there has been an upturn since he got involved overall. Gooch it's quite the opposite. Also cricket isn't like football, head coaches don't often have a group of coaches who follow them around. Gooch should go, I don't think Saker should go.
I think who stays or goes should be the decision of the head coach - saker looked pissed off with the selection when interviewed - maybe overruled.
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I don't disagree that the head coach should have the decision, but like I said it tends to be a bit different to football in that head coaches often keep on members of staff in cricket. I think Saker still has plenty to offer and unlike Gooch he has shown he can get us bowling very well. Also he just signed a new contract, so I don't think he's going. Gooch has to go though, because we have gradually got worse since he came on board.
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I'm not sure Saker should go, we have on the whole bowled very well up to this series. However our batting has gone downhill since Gooch became full time batting coach.
I agree with you about Gooch but think that Saker should go.
They have bowled well at times and had the Aussies 130-odd for 6 in Adelaide. What we have not been able to do for some time is finish sides off. The coach must take responsibility for that.
Or Brad Haddin. Or fielders dropping regulation catches.
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Yeah I think that's a big issue, Saker has done enough to deserve more time.
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I'm not sure Saker should go, we have on the whole bowled very well up to this series. However our batting has gone downhill since Gooch became full time batting coach.
I agree with you about Gooch but think that Saker should go.
They have bowled well at times and had the Aussies 130-odd for 6 in Adelaide. What we have not been able to do for some time is finish sides off. The coach must take responsibility for that.
As should the captain. Cook seems to run out of ideas very quickly when we are under the slightest bit of pressure.
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I'm not sure Saker should go, we have on the whole bowled very well up to this series. However our batting has gone downhill since Gooch became full time batting coach.
I agree with you about Gooch but think that Saker should go.
They have bowled well at times and had the Aussies 130-odd for 6 in Adelaide. What we have not been able to do for some time is finish sides off. The coach must take responsibility for that.
As should the captain. Cook seems to run out of ideas very quickly when we are under the slightest bit of pressure.
Cooks captaincy will improve with experience though - I actually think although it's hard to bear now this might be the defeat England had to have in order to move on a few players and re-invigorate the side. I see Cook as the ideal man to lead them and work towards regaining the Ashes in 2015.
Not a lot any Captain can do when you start the 2nd innings 200 runs in arrears every time. Same for the bowlers, especially in Australia where batsmen can trust the bounce and pace and simply carve it by hitting through the line. That's why I felt sorry for the bowlers after the batting and fielding had let them down so badly.
Someone like David Warner for example will average a lot higher in Australia than overseas for this reason.
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Compton could be an option if he relaxes and gets his scoring rate going.
I would go with Sam Robson @ Middlesex
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I see swann has made the headlines for a comment that we were arse raped - this tour gets worse by the day !
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Compton could be an option if he relaxes and gets his scoring rate going.
I would go with Sam Robson @ Middlesex
Yeah Robson does look a good prospect, but he's more middle order isn't he?
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Compton could be an option if he relaxes and gets his scoring rate going.
I would go with Sam Robson @ Middlesex
Yeah Robson does look a good prospect, but he's more middle order isn't he?
Definately opens for Middlesex
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I see swann has made the headlines for a comment that we were arse raped - this tour gets worse by the day !
I think England should ban him for the next test (was likely to be dropped anyway)
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That's fair enough, I've only seen a few clips of Robson but he looked promising.
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Swann is fast turning into something of a cretin.
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Swann is fast turning into something of a cretin.
I think he's always been a cretin but his performances for England covered his other discretions up.
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I'm not sure Saker should go, we have on the whole bowled very well up to this series. However our batting has gone downhill since Gooch became full time batting coach.
I agree with you about Gooch but think that Saker should go.
They have bowled well at times and had the Aussies 130-odd for 6 in Adelaide. What we have not been able to do for some time is finish sides off. The coach must take responsibility for that.
As should the captain. Cook seems to run out of ideas very quickly when we are under the slightest bit of pressure.
Cooks captaincy will improve with experience though - I actually think although it's hard to bear now this might be the defeat England had to have in order to move on a few players and re-invigorate the side. I see Cook as the ideal man to lead them and work towards regaining the Ashes in 2015.
Not a lot any Captain can do when you start the 2nd innings 200 runs in arrears every time. Same for the bowlers, especially in Australia where batsmen can trust the bounce and pace and simply carve it by hitting through the line. That's why I felt sorry for the bowlers after the batting and fielding had let them down so badly.
Someone like David Warner for example will average a lot higher in Australia than overseas for this reason.
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Cook showed some pretty good ideas at Adelaide and Brisbane, I'm confident he's learning.
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I'm not sure Saker should go, we have on the whole bowled very well up to this series. However our batting has gone downhill since Gooch became full time batting coach.
I agree with you about Gooch but think that Saker should go.
They have bowled well at times and had the Aussies 130-odd for 6 in Adelaide. What we have not been able to do for some time is finish sides off. The coach must take responsibility for that.
As should the captain. Cook seems to run out of ideas very quickly when we are under the slightest bit of pressure.
Cooks captaincy will improve with experience though - I actually think although it's hard to bear now this might be the defeat England had to have in order to move on a few players and re-invigorate the side. I see Cook as the ideal man to lead them and work towards regaining the Ashes in 2015.
Not a lot any Captain can do when you start the 2nd innings 200 runs in arrears every time. Same for the bowlers, especially in Australia where batsmen can trust the bounce and pace and simply carve it by hitting through the line. That's why I felt sorry for the bowlers after the batting and fielding had let them down so badly.
Someone like David Warner for example will average a lot higher in Australia than overseas for this reason.
Could be the case, but I would rest him along with Prior and Anderson once the test series is over. I'd go with an ODI team (in both T20 and 50 overs) of:
Bell, Carberry, Pietersen, Root, Morgan, Bopara, Buttler, Stokes, Broad, Treadwell, Rankin / Finn
Give someone else the chance to captain the side.
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I'm not sure Saker should go, we have on the whole bowled very well up to this series. However our batting has gone downhill since Gooch became full time batting coach.
I agree with you about Gooch but think that Saker should go.
They have bowled well at times and had the Aussies 130-odd for 6 in Adelaide. What we have not been able to do for some time is finish sides off. The coach must take responsibility for that.
As should the captain. Cook seems to run out of ideas very quickly when we are under the slightest bit of pressure.
Cooks captaincy will improve with experience though - I actually think although it's hard to bear now this might be the defeat England had to have in order to move on a few players and re-invigorate the side. I see Cook as the ideal man to lead them and work towards regaining the Ashes in 2015.
Not a lot any Captain can do when you start the 2nd innings 200 runs in arrears every time. Same for the bowlers, especially in Australia where batsmen can trust the bounce and pace and simply carve it by hitting through the line. That's why I felt sorry for the bowlers after the batting and fielding had let them down so badly.
Someone like David Warner for example will average a lot higher in Australia than overseas for this reason.
Could be the case, but I would rest him along with Prior and Anderson once the test series is over. I'd go with an ODI team (in both T20 and 50 overs) of:
Bell, Carberry, Pietersen, Root, Morgan, Bopara, Buttler, Stokes, Broad, Treadwell, Rankin / Finn
Give someone else the chance to captain the side.
Don't Broad and Morgan captain/vice captain the limited overs sides anyway?
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I'm not sure Saker should go, we have on the whole bowled very well up to this series. However our batting has gone downhill since Gooch became full time batting coach.
I agree with you about Gooch but think that Saker should go.
They have bowled well at times and had the Aussies 130-odd for 6 in Adelaide. What we have not been able to do for some time is finish sides off. The coach must take responsibility for that.
As should the captain. Cook seems to run out of ideas very quickly when we are under the slightest bit of pressure.
Cooks captaincy will improve with experience though - I actually think although it's hard to bear now this might be the defeat England had to have in order to move on a few players and re-invigorate the side. I see Cook as the ideal man to lead them and work towards regaining the Ashes in 2015.
Not a lot any Captain can do when you start the 2nd innings 200 runs in arrears every time. Same for the bowlers, especially in Australia where batsmen can trust the bounce and pace and simply carve it by hitting through the line. That's why I felt sorry for the bowlers after the batting and fielding had let them down so badly.
Someone like David Warner for example will average a lot higher in Australia than overseas for this reason.
Could be the case, but I would rest him along with Prior and Anderson once the test series is over. I'd go with an ODI team (in both T20 and 50 overs) of:
Bell, Carberry, Pietersen, Root, Morgan, Bopara, Buttler, Stokes, Broad, Treadwell, Rankin / Finn
Give someone else the chance to captain the side.
Don't Broad and Morgan captain/vice captain the limited overs sides anyway?
Yes
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Only the twenty20 side, Cook is ODI captain.
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Only the twenty20 side, Cook is ODI captain.
Cook is the ODI captain, but should be nowhere near the upcoming series. He needs a break from it all and should be on the first plane out of there when the tests finish. World Cup next year so hopefully we'll use the series against the Aussies to start building towards that. On reflection on the team I posted earlier, maybe drop Ravi, move Stokes to six and bring Bresnan in. The original line up looked a little light in the bowling department.
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Read an interview with Finn and it sounds like he's starting to get his bowling back in order, which would be very good for us.
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What the hells going on out there. Swann retires from cricket.
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ABC Online
What the hells going on out there. Swann retires from cricket.
England spinner Graeme Swann has announced his retirement from cricket, only four days out from the Boxing Day Test against Australia at the MCG.
Swann made the shock announcement this morning, bringing down the curtain on a 60-Test career in which he claimed 255 wickets at an average of 29.96.
But the 34-year-old endured a disappointing Ashes campaign, taking only seven wickets at 80 runs in the three Tests completed.
More to follow.
Sports Mole
The 34-year-old will not play for his country in the remaining two Ashes Tests against Australia, but will remain in the country with his family.
"I know people will be surprised by the suddenness of the decision and the fact that I'm making myself unavailable for the final two Tests of the Ashes series," he said.
"I'd hoped that, when we walked out for the fifth Test in Sydney on January 3, it would have been with a chance of winning or retaining the Ashes. But that has gone now."
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Bonkers.
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Crumbled apart.
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My immediate reaction is that it confirms he's a fair weather Cricketer, pissing off mid tour when you're 3-0 down is not a good look, even if I thought he should have been dropped.
It shows just how mentally off the pace this team has been and Im now certain he won't be the last to announce something at least atthe end of the tour. Can really see KP, Prior, and Flower follow him.
A great spinner over the years which I will come to appreciate in the next few days but right now I'm a little pissed off with him tbh.
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His twitter comment was a disgrace and he has given in to that, not the fact he has been a complete waste of space in the tests. It was always going to be a tough call whether to drop him/ keep him in and show some balls, he has chosen to make the decision himself
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Maybe he was told he wasn't playing and tossed the toys out.
He seems the type.
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Fucking hell - this tours been a disaster - wouldn't be surprised to see kp go next .
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I've a horrible feeling this tour could get worse before it gets better (better being England's arrival at the Qantas departure lounge).
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Either Swann has some underlying reason (eg like Trott) that we are unaware of or he is a quitter. If you agree to go on a tour you see it out simple as. Jack Russell got taken on tour and never had a look in and with typical stoicism did some painting.
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@MichaelVaughan: I would say @MontyPanesar would have played this week anyway,.The Aussies have done a job on @Swannyg66 tactically .. right handers from 3-7
@MichaelVaughan: It won't be long before @Borthwick16 is playing for England .. 2 nd Spin Option... Top order batsman... Gun fielder.. #Justsaying
@Swannyg66: Thanks to you all for your messages and support throughout my career. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.
@Swannyg66: It was always a privilege to represent my great country playing the game I love and I'll forever support the three lions #keepthefaith
@BumbleCricket: Still don't get folk piling into Swann. He's retired, finito, kaput, end of, finished , done...move on
@Aggerscricket: I understand the Swanny debate. Very difficult to judge not knowing the conversation. Suspect he was told not playing at MCG & given option
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Bumble not wanted to upset another of his potential 'mates' in the commentary box I see.
Bit of a contradiction from Swann in the press conference. Mentioned letting some new blood in to take it on - well guess what Greame, we're on tour and we play this week. The player he mentioned is 12,000 miles away FFS.
Why he couldn't just see tha last 2 weeks of the tour through, unless told he was dropped so made the announcement before the team was announced, like a true professional would I don't know.
Great player for England no doubt but to just walk away at 3-0 down with 2 tests to play and notice to bring in a replacement is a bit lame IMO.
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Bumble not wanted to upset another of his potential 'mates' in the commentary box I see.
Bit of a contradiction from Swann in the press conference. Mentioned letting some new blood in to take it on - well guess what Greame, we're on tour and we play this week. The player he mentioned is 12,000 miles away FFS.
Why he couldn't just see tha last 2 weeks of the tour through, unless told he was dropped so made the announcement before the team was announced, like a true professional would I don't know.
Great player for England no doubt but to just walk away at 3-0 down with 2 tests to play and notice to bring in a replacement is a bit lame IMO.
Suppose he was told he was being left out so decided fuck it ,might as well spend christmas at home if he felt his career was over .
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Bumble not wanted to upset another of his potential 'mates' in the commentary box I see.
Bit of a contradiction from Swann in the press conference. Mentioned letting some new blood in to take it on - well guess what Greame, we're on tour and we play this week. The player he mentioned is 12,000 miles away FFS.
Why he couldn't just see tha last 2 weeks of the tour through, unless told he was dropped so made the announcement before the team was announced, like a true professional would I don't know.
Great player for England no doubt but to just walk away at 3-0 down with 2 tests to play and notice to bring in a replacement is a bit lame IMO.
Suppose he was told he was being left out so decided fuck it ,might as well spend christmas at home if he felt his career was over .
Apparently he's staying in Australia for the duration - the media world beckons.
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Strikes me that all is not well in the dressing room. Team England seems to be disintegrating.
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He has always been a media whore.Anderson next,then they can have the radio show they always wanted.
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When the going gets tough the not so tough quit. FFS this man should be leading a fight back and setting an example for youngsters in the team.
The way Nasser has defended him points to ...well we will see him on TV as the latest pundit. I also expect Pietersen to fake an injury for the next two tests and than return for one dayers.
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Bumble not wanted to upset another of his potential 'mates' in the commentary box I see.
Bit of a contradiction from Swann in the press conference. Mentioned letting some new blood in to take it on - well guess what Greame, we're on tour and we play this week. The player he mentioned is 12,000 miles away FFS.
Why he couldn't just see tha last 2 weeks of the tour through, unless told he was dropped so made the announcement before the team was announced, like a true professional would I don't know.
Great player for England no doubt but to just walk away at 3-0 down with 2 tests to play and notice to bring in a replacement is a bit lame IMO.
Suppose he was told he was being left out so decided fuck it ,might as well spend christmas at home if he felt his career was over .
Apparently he's staying in Australia for the duration - the media world beckons.
If he's staying on Australia then it all seems a bit pointless - why not complete the tour and then announce it during the last test match .
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You can understand, to an extent, a man wanting to appear master of his own destiny and jump before he is pushed.
This has been a good English team but Test cricket is constantly moving on and I think we'll see a bit of chopping and changing over the next year as they establish who is going to be good enough for the step up.
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We may have to take a step backwards for a couple of years as we blood the next crop of players for the future in a similar way to the Aussies - the likes of cook, root , bell, still have plenty of time left but for quite a few the golden era is now over - they will be fondly remembered as 3 times ashes winners and the best team in world cricket for a spell .
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Yeah I think we've all had a mostly enjoyable last 6 years or so and the main protagonists during that time should leave with their heads held high and be remembered for the many highs and not the few lows.
However I think there maybe should have been more attention paid to the evolution of the side and players bedded in 1 by 1 with a look to the future because I can see now we are going to lose a few all at once.
There have been signs of decline now for over a year and we've rested on our laurels a bit.
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We may have to take a step backwards for a couple of years as we blood the next crop of players for the future in a similar way to the Aussies - the likes of cook, root , bell, still have plenty of time left but for quite a few the golden era is now over - they will be fondly remembered as 3 times ashes winners and the best team in world cricket for a spell .
Don't know about that. I think there is enough quality in the team to manage the transition without struggling too badly. Finding a new number three is probably going to be one of the biggest challenges.
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Maybe he was told he wasn't playing and tossed the toys out.
He seems the type.
I was told from a good source that he was going to quit before the ashes started so I don't think the decision itself was taken lightly (it was known in cricket circles) however he has clearly brought the date forward.
Shame. I like the bloke.
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Anyone watching SA vs India? India's seamers look like they'll do really well in English conditions.
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Well i happen to think he is a complete 'arsewipe'......he should have waited till end of the tour....thousands of people have paid thousands to go over there to watch the best England team available to the selectors from that squad....what must they all be thinking now that he has jumped ship. He may not have been playing in the game in Melbourne but at least that is down to Flower & Cook to decide.
I know i wouldn't have been happy if i was over there. I suffered enough in 2006/7 when over there but we didn't have to put up with tossers like him throwing his toys out the pram.
Nob!!!!
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South Africa v India looks like being an exciting finish. South Africa need 45 to win with the highest successful run-chase of all time, India need four wickets.
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I am with you PGW , i also think he is a complete arsewipe. Saw a lot of him in the nets at Edgbaston in the summer before the one day game and was amazed how full of himself he was .He spent the whole net session messing about with the other loudmouth Anderson ,so not really surprised he has decided to walk out halfway through the series because he is having a tough time
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South Africa v India looks like being an exciting finish. South Africa need 45 to win with the highest successful run-chase of all time, India need four wickets.
16 with three wickets to go.
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Looks like South Africa are settling for a draw, boring bastards.
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Brings a new meaning to anti-climax.
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I think Swann has been an outstanding cricketer for England and deserves to be remembered in that way. It's a pity he didn't get in the team earlier in his career, but overall he was excellent. Well done Graeme and I think it's a good time to go, I think he knew he wasn't playing and we need to see these last two tests as a new start for a new England team.
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Looks like South Africa are settling for a draw, boring bastards.
Brings a new meaning to anti-climax.
What do you expect from perennial chokers?
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Surely the chance to create history should have been enough for SA to risk losing the match?
They are the best team in the world, by a distance, but it's hard to respect the way they played the last 3 overs.
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that's is pretty unbelieveable, if they'd been another wicket or 2 down I could understand it but to not go after one of the bowlers a little and try to force the win seems stupid in that situation, if they'd done it in the over after they lost du plessis they'd have forced India on the defensive so I don't really understand why you'd just try to hang on.
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India didn't exactly seem to want to make a go of it either. There must have been about four balls on target in the last three overs.
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India didn't exactly seem to want to make a go of it either. There must have been about four balls on target in the last three overs.
A run rate of 5 an over with 3 overs left I would have thought they would at least have a go until losing the 8th wicket - the crowd rightly seemed perplexed by it all - really odd to get so close and then take a draw.
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India didn't exactly seem to want to make a go of it either. There must have been about four balls on target in the last three overs.
I think their main incentive was not to the be the side who lost having set such a big target, SA really should have been underlining their credentials as best in the world by winning in as close to impossible fashion as they could.
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I'd say Swann's immediate departure suggests to me that Flower might be staying and he's said 'this is the way I'm going moving forward and it starts now'.
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I'd say Swann's immediate departure suggests to me that Flower might be staying and he's said 'this is the way I'm going moving forward and it starts now'.
I don't share that view , I'd be very surprised if flower stayed on and I think from his comments in the summer he had probably already made his mind up on the future whatever happens on this tour .
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Well we'll see, but I'd suggest conversations have gone on in the background about how this team is moving forward and that'd be difficult without a coach who is staying.
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Well we'll see, but I'd suggest conversations have gone on in the background about how this team is moving forward and that'd be difficult without a coach who is staying.
Hopefully he will clarify the situation either way sooner rather than later .
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I agree, we need to get moving in a new direction.
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I would suggest that Swann has made a very selfish decision and it's nothing to do with future strategy of the team etc etc.
Whilst he has been good for England he has always performed when the team was in ascendency. He now realises that with the team suffering his personal currency will be down rated unless he gets out as soon as he can and secure himself a lucrative contract by other than playing.
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I would suggest that Swann has made a very selfish decision and it's nothing to do with future strategy of the team etc etc.
Whilst he has been good for England he has always performed when the team was in ascendency. He now realises that with the team suffering his personal currency will be down rated unless he gets out as soon as he can and secure himself a lucrative contract by other than playing.
I agree 100%.......He was told he was dropped and threw the toys out, leaving his friends short handed
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Maybe but it'd be speculation to say that.
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I think he was probably intending to retire having been part of an england squad which took 4 consecutive ashes series, I'm convinced it had been discussed which is why we saw kerrigan in the summer and Monty has played this series. We need to find a wicket taking spinner that is clear, but we also need to replace a good slip fielder and handy lower order batsman.
I don't know what to think of the timing so I'm just going to point to his record instead and say, whatever you think of the timing of his departure or some of his actions in the last few years, he's been a very important part of a very successful period for us and he'll be a tough player to replace.
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I think he was probably intending to retire having been part of an england squad which took 4 consecutive ashes series, I'm convinced it had been discussed which is why we saw kerrigan in the summer and Monty has played this series. We need to find a wicket taking spinner that is clear, but we also need to replace a good slip fielder and handy lower order batsman.
I don't know what to think of the timing so I'm just going to point to his record instead and say, whatever you think of the timing of his departure or some of his actions in the last few years, he's been a very important part of a very successful period for us and he'll be a tough player to replace.
Very true - certainly one of the best I've seen watching England along with the likes of underwood.
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I think if Borthwick can improve his spinning he could be a good option, his batting and fielding are excellent. Kerrigan I think will come back, he definitely shouldn't be discarded for his performance at the Oval. He wasn't given a chance to redeem himself and I thought he was treated pretty poorly to be honest.
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@MichaelVaughan: Hearing some very revealing quotes from @Swannyg66 about the England dressing room about to come out...!!!!!
Sadly - this would suggest things could get messy. As a regular 'away' tourist - who luckily this time didn't fancy Oz - I love Swanny and he has given a lot both on and off the field. I have no problem with his timings as I imagine a top sportsman losing his powers must really hurt.
I have some very treasured mobile phone footage of him singing on a stage in the team hotel in Colombo a couple of years ago after a test match win and that is very helpful in understanding that sport is great but is only sport and not everything
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The mirror was a decent story on this, basically him saying his elbow isn't right and wasn't right in the summer but he didn't want to let them down before going to Oz but it was a mistake and he wishes he'd retired after the oval. It also says that a section of the England dressing room have their head up their own arses, which sounds perfectly reasonable.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/graeme-swann-im-not-quitter-2954138 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/graeme-swann-im-not-quitter-2954138)
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I think if Borthwick can improve his spinning he could be a good option, his batting and fielding are excellent. Kerrigan I think will come back, he definitely shouldn't be discarded for his performance at the Oval. He wasn't given a chance to redeem himself and I thought he was treated pretty poorly to be honest.
I can't get any county cricket over here so I'm totally in the dark about the county game and really have to rely on stats which isn't great. That said Borthwick appears to be the guy they hoping for big things from because he'd be another bowling all rounder. Him and Stokes making the grade would be really helpful because it means we can have batsmen at 6 and 8 without losing any bowling. I think they'll have another look at Woakes as well.
Kerrigan looked good on the highlights I watched after he was called up but it was clearly too soon for him. I hope he can get his head right and get another go as we really need a group of bowlers rather than using the same 4 or 5 all the time, that lack of depth in all departments has been the biggest issue in the last year, we've had people needing a break but haven't had anyone with the experience to step in for them.
The biggest issue for me is that the county circuit seems to be full of guys in the 30s at the minute, certainly at the top of the bowling charts, which makes it a bit harder to pick guys in their early 20s who can come in and build into a team. Onions had one hell of a season on paper (and my Durham supporting brother-in-law has told me repeatedly how well he was bowling) but he's getting on a bit and has largely been ignored by England since his injury problems.
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The mirror was a decent story on this, basically him saying his elbow isn't right and wasn't right in the summer but he didn't want to let them down before going to Oz but it was a mistake and he wishes he'd retired after the oval.
More like "Actually I knew I wasn't up to it at the end of last summer but f*** me if I was going to miss out on an Australian tour jolly".
Unbelievably unprofessional to go ahead when he knew of his elbow issue and play 3 useless test matches lose the Ashes and than opt out.
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Not enough to jack it in mid tour it looks like he's shouting his mouth off on the eve of the test too -
Let the pantomine begin -
@MichaelVaughan: So @Swannyg66 says some England players heads are up their own Arse???? Which ones exactly??
@MichaelVaughan: As a respected senior player in the dressing room @Swannyg66 .. Why didn't you sort players out who got too big for themselves ??
@MichaelVaughan: I agree with @Swannyg66 that some players are getting ahead of themselves but I don't think he should have said it the day after retiring...
@MichaelVaughan: This tour for England was already a disaster.... Now it's a bloody joke...
@Swannyg66: @MichaelVaughan don't jump to conclusions Vaughney. I wasn't talking about the England dressing room or anyone in it. You too bbc.
@Swannyg66: Just because Derek Pringles writes something I find it astonishing that people buy into it?! Making stuff up sells papers I suppose
@MichaelVaughan: We all make mistakes @Swannyg66 .. I make plenty ... I am afraid on this occasion you have made one ...
@MichaelVaughan: Fantastic to see @Borthwick16 called into the Test Squad... A great talent with a big future ...
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This is so unprofessional on so many levels if you'd have told me last week this would be carrying on I wouldn't have believed it.
Swann needs to have a good look at himself here he really does. We've had his 'fair weather fans' comment after Brisbane, poor bowling, utterly cowardly batting, then deciding to pull out of the tour after 3 tests and now criticising others and their attitudes - I appreciate I'm just an outsider looking in but put all that together and tell me who has the attitude issues.
Oh and now is he suggesting it's all a misunderstanding and it's nobody in the team - what feck is he on?
As he's media bound though don't hold your breath for any criticism, especially from the Sky box who themselves seem to have disappeared up the players arses of late.
By the way, the Aussies are laughing at us and AGAIN it's totally self inflicted.
Expect a world record 90,000 to be at the MCG on Boxing Day too. Weather set fair and England in a total mess - they won't want to miss this!
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This is so unprofessional on so many levels if you'd have told me last week this would be carrying on I wouldn't have believed it.
Swann needs to have a good look at himself here he really does. We've had his 'fair weather fans' comment after Brisbane, poor bowling, utterly cowardly batting, then deciding to pull out of the tour after 3 tests and now criticising others and their attitudes - I appreciate I'm just an outsider looking in but put all that together and tell me who has the attitude issues.
Oh and now is he suggesting it's all a misunderstanding and it's nobody in the team - what feck is he on?
As he's media bound though don't hold your breath for any criticism, especially from the Sky box who themselves seem to have disappeared up the players arses of late.
By the way, the Aussies are laughing at us and AGAIN it's totally self inflicted.
Expect a world record 90,000 to be at the MCG on Boxing Day too. Weather set fair and England in a total mess - they won't want to miss this!
Agreed, total shambles and I'm surprised by it all- for swann to quit and then make such comments to the press a day later is very unprofessional - has Flower taken his eye off the ball in this series , there are players spotted drinking late at night , tweets being criticised , and a team who seem to have lost all spirit and fight and have played terribly throughout - god knows what's going to happen next !
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So Trott was not in the right mental state to play but went anyway and Swann was not in the right physical state to play but went anyway. It's nice to get this news after they've contributed to defeats.
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It shows a total lack of respect to the remaining squad and management.
Is he really that desperate to get his media career going that he has to do this now. Imagine how you'd feel within the squad. You'd be so pissed off with it all.
Aussie news report just came on basically taking the piss about it, as we would be.
5-0 is an absolute certainty now
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It's very weird all these quotes coming out. Anyway I'm surprised they're calling up Tredwell as Australia took him apart in the ODIs, but glad to see Borthwick is getting involved.
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It's very weird all these quotes coming out. Anyway I'm surprised they're calling up Tredwell as Australia took him apart in the ODIs, but glad to see Borthwick is getting involved.
Tredwell had an average of over 50 last season,unfortunately it wasn't with the bat.This just shows how weak the spin bowling is.
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Very selfish of Swann, at least he can concentrate on developing his 'Swanny' character for Greg James and his media buddies.
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When he quit I expected him to head home for christmas rather than hanging around in Australia giving his rent a quotes to the media - it's well known he and kp don't get on but I'm sure there are others as well .
Wasn't it Goughie who famously chinned him in the toilets once ?
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GB on KP from a recent Torygraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/theashes/10531069/Ashes-2013-14-Andy-Flower-has-to-say-Either-Kevin-Pietersen-goes-or-I-do.html) article:
How do you tell inexperienced players such as Carberry and Root that you have to sell your wicket dearly and work through difficult periods in a match, but then Pietersen plays like he does? He has given his wicket away four times out of six. Each time they set a trap for him and he falls for it. He is a mug and the Aussies are laughing at him. They think he is a sucker.
Senior players should always give a lead to the juniors, but with Pietersen it is all about self. He is going to do whatever he wants, play the way he feels irrespective of the state of the match or what is best for England.
I do not agree that you have to let him play the way he wants. When the best player in the team makes stupid mistakes just think what that does to the morale of the rest of the players. KP is in his own world.
It is almost a personal challenge. He is going to show everyone that if you put a fielder in a position, he can hit it over him or past him because he thinks he is better than the plan they have set for him.
He is England’s best player by far and it has a huge impact when he gets out. But getting out is not a crime. It is the way you get out.
It is also a failure of management as much as KP’s fault. Andy Flower has allowed him to play any way he wants because he can win matches.
Every mother knows that no matter how much she loves her child she has to set boundaries. The child has to know if you cross the boundary some privileges will be taken away until you grasp right and wrong.
Andy should have told him long ago it is not on. But obviously he has let him do what he wants, so he keeps making the same silly mistakes. I actually think KP is too long in the tooth to change now. They say old dogs cannot or will change. If I was Andy Flower I would be saying either he goes or I go.
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Good article - i like boycott - he tells it as he sees it and couldn't care less who he upsets in doing so.
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KP's interview will irritate some as he says he'll continue to take risks, but at least he's shown he's commited to playing for England. If he can be a little more sensible with his shots he's a fine player.
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KP's interview will irritate some as he says he'll continue to take risks, but at least he's shown he's commited to playing for England. If he can be a little more sensible with his shots he's a fine player.
Irritated me when he said he's playing as well as he's ever played - bollocks!
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Irritated me when he said he's playing as well as he's ever played - bollocks!
Yes I found that both funny and worrying. Funny as I thought he was kidding and worrying if he wasn't!
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I see Swann is being "managed" by Sky. His interview with them is anything but a facilitation exercise to smooth him into his new role. I noticed that he back tracked on "heads up their arse" by saying " no not England players" so the follow up question was "These are Australians you are referring to?" . Of course that question was not asked by the Sky interviewer!
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I thought KP showed in his interview with the BBC that he can dig and defend when necessary.
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Still no Finn or Rankin.
What a lovely holiday they must be having.
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So far so good.44-0.
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So far so good.44-0.
and then Cook plays a really loose one and we're 48-1
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107/3
Root 24 from 82 balls
Pietersen currently 4 from 31 balls
Bell currently 2 from 13 balls
Is it some sort of weird political statement the batsmen are continuing to make?
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The Aussies have kept it tight but as a batting side we go into our shell so easily. Time and again we get bogged down, allow Australia to stifle us with no pressure of attacking intent and then lose wickets. Yet again we are going no where fast. Our confidence is so shot that our best two stroke players can't hit the ball off the square.
Bell just gone now so that plan didn't work.
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KP throws up in the middle.
Will he guts it out or Give in to it with a loose shot - what happens next might be quite telling.
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Att: 91,092.
New world record for a day at the Test Match.
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Cook really has been a useless tosser in this series.
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Root really struggled and the run rate was alarming when he and kp were together - bell really must come in at 3.
Kp had his luck twice but battled through and deserves some credit when way below his best for hanging on in there .
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Any idea what the significance was of the fingers on lips celebration from australia team?
They strike me as a bit like spurs fans, more interested in arsenal than actually enjoying their successes.
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Any idea what the significance was of the fingers on lips celebration from australia team?
They strike me as a bit like spurs fans, more interested in arsenal than actually enjoying their successes.
The Barmy Army had struck up a few verses of the "bowls to the left...." song to Johnson after Bairstow put him away for a couple of boundaries.
I agree though, they seem quite sensetive considering everything. Warner acted like the c$@! he is again I noticed.
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Well done KP that innings has shown he can still do it and he showed grit. Other than that same old story of loads of players getting starts and not going on. Bairstow clearly has a fundamental issue, because you shouldn't get bowled so often. He shouldn't be our second choice wicketkeeper.
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Oh and Bresnan has to get runs because he's not good enough as a threatening first change bowler.
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I went to sleep as Bell and Pietersen were boring me to tears after Root had done the same. It was completely inevitable that this ridiculous negative batting was going to fail badly again, and it has.
Australia have batted at around 1 run an over quicker than we have all series, and that seems a pretty staggering statistic. You'd think looking at our slower bowlers, the one thing they could do better would be to control the run rate, so it's pretty clear which team is playing the more aggressive, dynamic brand of cricket.
Pietersen gets a lot of stick for the way he gets out at times, but the biggest problem is he bats at a snails pace currently, putting pressure on himself and pretty much forcing him into playing a reckless shot in order to release the shackles. I don't think that this has been a good innings from him. Really he deserves to have got out to that cretinous hook shot after batting himself into a corner.
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Root really struggled and the run rate was alarming when he and kp were together - bell really must come in at 3.
Kp had his luck twice but battled through and deserves some credit when way below his best for hanging on in there .
[/quote
No, he's good as gold Eastie. He's batting as well as he ever has.
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Most of KPs best innings have come when he's had to grit it out for a while like this, if bres and broad can support him I think he can lead us to 350ish from here, he just needs to be sensible for the first 10 and we need the lower order to support him.
Bairstow is totally out of his depth, I have no idea how he's ahead of Buttler right now.
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Oh, i'll be more than willing to revise my opinion if Pietersen can play well and get a massive score tomorrow. Problem is firstly he doesn't look capable at the moment, and secondly our lower order have been worse than pathetic with the bat all series.
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it just seems strange to focus your anger on the one guy who's actually managed to hang around and get a half-century. Bairstow being clean bowled and Cook playing such a poor shot after we'd started decently are the 2 I'm most upset with personally.
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it just seems strange to focus your anger on the one guy who's actually managed to hang around and get a half-century. Bairstow being clean bowled and Cook playing such a poor shot after we'd started decently are the 2 I'm most upset with personally.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm hugely pissed off again with pretty much all the batsmen. Bell and Root being the biggest offenders in my opinion so far this innings for the way they went about their innings.
It's just annoyed me that Pietersen seems to be getting praise when if a fielder wouldn't have thrown the ball into a stand, it would have been up there with one of his worst ever innings. The way that he, Root and Bell batted left the late collapse inevitable.
I'm not surprised at how negatively Pietersen and Root played, but Bell was a bit of a shock considering how fluent he has looked the last few months. Maybe the pitch is really slow. Although I'm willing to bet it will look a lot easier to score freely on when the Aussies bat.
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it just seems strange to focus your anger on the one guy who's actually managed to hang around and get a half-century. Bairstow being clean bowled and Cook playing such a poor shot after we'd started decently are the 2 I'm most upset with personally.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm hugely pissed off again with pretty much all the batsmen. Bell and Root being the biggest offenders in my opinion so far this innings for the way they went about their innings.
It's just annoyed me that Pietersen seems to be getting praise when if a fielder wouldn't have thrown the ball into a stand, it would have been up there with one of his worst ever innings. The way that he, Root and Bell batted left the late collapse inevitable.
I'm not surprised at how negatively Pietersen and Root played, but Bell was a bit of a shock considering how fluent he has looked the last few months. Maybe the pitch is really slow. Although I'm willing to bet it will look a lot easier to score freely on when the Aussies bat.
The Aussies bowl pretty accurately but even so England are very negative in our batting - I loved seeing stokes take on Lyon and despatch him for 6 - bell must bat at 3 instead of root.
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it just seems strange to focus your anger on the one guy who's actually managed to hang around and get a half-century. Bairstow being clean bowled and Cook playing such a poor shot after we'd started decently are the 2 I'm most upset with personally.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm hugely pissed off again with pretty much all the batsmen. Bell and Root being the biggest offenders in my opinion so far this innings for the way they went about their innings.
It's just annoyed me that Pietersen seems to be getting praise when if a fielder wouldn't have thrown the ball into a stand, it would have been up there with one of his worst ever innings. The way that he, Root and Bell batted left the late collapse inevitable.
I'm not surprised at how negatively Pietersen and Root played, but Bell was a bit of a shock considering how fluent he has looked the last few months. Maybe the pitch is really slow. Although I'm willing to bet it will look a lot easier to score freely on when the Aussies bat.
The Aussies bowl pretty accurately but even so England are very negative in our batting - I loved seeing stokes take on Lyon and despatch him for 6 - bell must bat at 3 instead of root.
Yeah, it's not to take away from the Aussies, but I just can't help but think they are allowed to build the pressure. Look at the way we play Watson. It's as if he's a hybrid of Glenn McGrath and Malcolm Marshall trundling in at them. Can you imagine any other international team showing him the same level of respect?
I agree that Bell should be at 3, but I thought his effort this innings was a bit of a joke.
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Here we go again.7 down
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And there's the irresponsibility.
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Fuck off KP.
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Oh well, at least the cricket is cheering us all up.
Why the fuck is there no middle ground with Pietersen?
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This could be the 1st innings defeat of the series.
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Fair enough, he had to try and play shots and done with a yorker, Broad.
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Yeah Broad was left in an impossible situation.
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Warner may well be a ****** (he definitely is) but he isn't half an entertaining player to watch
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Needed that.
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I know Warner failed, but the way he came out was indicative in the reasons why Australia have been so much the better side.
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Not nice to see Rodgers hurt, but it is nice to see some sportsmanship and maturity from one side to the other.
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Much better bowling and a good day for the barmy army at last - now lets finish the job and not let them off the hook.
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Much better bowling and a good day for the barmy army at last - now lets finish the job and not let them off the hook.
Too little too late
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Closing the stable door after the Aussies have bolted. The war is over and amazingly some of these fair weather cricketers find their voices.
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Finally a good day, well done England we needed that fight. Good to see the bowlers finally doing the job, well done Jimmy as well.
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We needed a day like that to begin to restore some pride.
Please McGrath we can finish them early tomorrow, bat well and finish the job.
Still a long way to go though.
Finally England will get some luck weather wise, going to be 38c and sunny tomorrow. Very debilitating for their quicks if they have to spend 3 plus sessions in the field.
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It's funny that KP will get slaughtered as usual, but he was our best batsmen by a distance. Also one thing I'll say for Carberry is that he's doing his principle job which is seeing off the new ball, he just needs to go on now.
Jimmy getting wickets was vital and Broad has had a good series. We need to knock them over quick tomorrow and then bat big.
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Oh and I still don't think Bresnan offers enough as the bowling all rounder.
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I loved Bailey's dismissal as well, smug bastard.
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Oh and I still don't think Bresnan offers enough as the bowling all rounder.
Odd thing to say when he has 2 for 24 from 18 overs. That's pretty much the perfect performance for a change bowler who's main job is to keep it tight and slow the scoring from one end.
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Oh and I still don't think Bresnan offers enough as the bowling all rounder.
Odd thing to say when he has 2 for 24 from 18 overs. That's pretty much the perfect performance for a change bowler who's main job is to keep it tight and slow the scoring from one end.
I think stokes is seen more as an all rounder - Bresnan in the main is a bowler who can chip in with a few runs .
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Bres is a bowling all-rounder, he'll average 25-30 with the bat long term. Stokes is a Batting all-rounder and should be aiming for an average of 45+. With the ball they have very different jobs, Stokes, like Finn, is a strike bowler offering small aggressive spells at key times to break partnerships, etc.
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Well I was wrong, and the pitch is clearly pretty turgid. In many ways it is by far the most suitable pitch our bowlers have had all series, as attacking looks fraught with danger.
It'll be difficult for our batsmen to score two quickly second time around, but hopefully with a lead of 70 or 80 or so, they can at least assert themselves on the game and put pressure on the Aussie bowlers.
Although it wouldn't overly surprise me to see Haddin reduce it to a meaningless lead
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I loved Bailey's dismissal as well, smug bastard.
I failed to see anything controversial about that, despite the commentators suggesting otherwise.
There was a clear indication on snicko, the moment the ball went by the edge, and when the 3rd umpire had the audio turned up, there was a clear woody noise the moment the ball went by the edge.
It made me laugh when Hussain (who I respect massively, and think is by a million miles the best pundit on sky) suggested the noise could be anything. I think he even suggested it could be someone coughing!!!
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Oh and I still don't think Bresnan offers enough as the bowling all rounder.
I think on that sort of pitch, he is a decent enough bowler. He can sit in and wait for the batsmen to make mistakes. It's when a pitch is nicely paced, like at Perth where he struggles.
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That over from Anderson was an absolute disgrace
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It's getting silly again. Haddin is ......
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No balls, bowled at the stumps at a number 11. Basic cricket...........
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30 runs too many and they are all out. 204
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I find the reluctance to bowl at the stumps to the tail moronic. We do it all the time and just keep nibbling outside off, the issue is, an 11 is either going to swing at it and flash one away or completely miss it. Lyon today was a great example, especially with the new ball he was backing off and swinging from the hip at everything but missing by a foot, bowl those at the top of off-stump and they'd never have got 40 this morning.
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With the usual caveat of knowing less than nowt about cricket, is this game not the equivalent of that time Manchester United had won the league with three games to spare so David Beckham went on holiday early?
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With the usual caveat of knowing less than nowt about cricket, is this game not the equivalent of that time Manchester United had won the league with three games to spare so David Beckham went on holiday early?
Not really, on the back of losing 4 ashes series they'd love to win 5-0, I don't in the slightest think that they've taken the foot of the pedal, the ky is we've got a pitch offering a little bit of lateral movement and suddenly Jimmy has joined the tour.
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With the usual caveat of knowing less than nowt about cricket, is this game not the equivalent of that time Manchester United had won the league with three games to spare so David Beckham went on holiday early?
Not really, on the back of losing 4 ashes series they'd love to win 5-0, I don't in the slightest think that they've taken the foot of the pedal, the ky is we've got a pitch offering a little bit of lateral movement and suddenly Jimmy has joined the tour.
Okay, er, yes, I agree. I think...er...what number does Geoff Boycott play?
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I know Carberry is very slow here but that's ok so long as Cook keeps going for it at the other end, we really need Cook to stay around for a while though. I trust Carberry to step it up soon, he's not the type of player to score this slowly for such a long time.
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I'm hoping the scoring from this morning is tactical where Cook has decided to target Harris. If we can score big runs from him (and he is the sensible choice, Siddle and Watson are steady line and length bowlers who don't give much away) it puts pressure on Clarke to give Johnson more overs. If we get after Lyon as well I'll be sure that they've eventually come up with a plan on how to reduce the threat from Johnson, probably as a result of seeing Johnson struggle when Watson wasn't bowling the older ball on day 1.
I'll take what is effectively 104 for 0 at this point, we need to bat out the day and get that lead up around 250 then see how things look tomorrow, Cook owes a big innings after a very poor series and hopefully will provide one here.
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A great platform for the likes of Petersen, Bell and Stokes. Time to rub their noses in it for a change.
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Root stupid run out, Bell unbelievably casual looking shot and England contrive to fuck things up for themselves on at least the 5th time on this tour.
It's hard enough against Australia without gifting them wickets like that.
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Really disappointing session, great deliveries to get Cook and Carberry and then Root and Bell just gave their wickets away. I'm rather upset that the first day I've stayed up to watch after lunch was set up so nicely only for that pair to contrive to put us in such a shitty position again.
We really need this pair to make a stand, they've started well but to give the bowlers something they need to be there at the end of the day really.
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How the fuck have we allowed Nathan Lyon to take 5 wickets here. Cook and Pietersen aside this has been an appalling batting performance.
YET AGAIN the bowlers must be totally pissed off with this shite game after game.
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Completely gutless display. Sums the whole tour up. WANKERS.
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I know he's a Villa fan but Ian Bell - I think that was the worst of the lot and he had some stiff competition.
Probably the most disappointing day of the tour considering the situation at the start.
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Dreadful day - poor bowling to begin and then having made a decent start we contrived to collapse - cook and kp apart it was poor stuff - again the tail goes for 4 wickets for 5 runs and leaving the Aussies chasing 231 to win they have made a comfortable 30-0 start - looking very much like 4-0 :(
The Aussies have lost the last 3 ashes series and are determined to whitewash is here - they may well do so, too.
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Thank FUCK I went to sleep at lunch.
I think if I had watched that utter joke of a display then my rather expensive tv would now be smashed to pieces.
In a way I'm glad. This England team don't deserve anything other than 5-0 humiliation.
Wake me up when some of the cretins are gone.
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Normal service has been resumed.....
Gutless wankers
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Fucking hell this tour keeps lurching from bad to worse. Our batsmen are a complete and utter shambles and it's totally unacceptable. I'm starting to worry about Root now as well, he's becoming a make one contribution a series and then fuck all else. We may still win this game but the batting is embarrassing. Some players and Gooch must go.
Oh Cook you need to have aggressive fields tomorrow. Also since Lyon bowled us out it might be an idea to get Monty on with me round the bat.
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I agree with Boycott, they better not think it'll be all ok when they get back to England. The batting has been fucking atrocious for too long. What a bloody 30th birthday present waking up to this!
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I agree with Boycott, they better not think it'll be all ok when they get back to England. The batting has been fucking atrocious for too long. What a bloody 30th birthday present waking up to this!
Don't let the bastards grind you down Paul!!!
Many happy returns. Hope you have a nice day.
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Fucking hell this tour keeps lurching from bad to worse. Our batsmen are a complete and utter shambles and it's totally unacceptable. I'm starting to worry about Root now as well, he's becoming a make one contribution a series and then fuck all else. We may still win this game but the batting is embarrassing. Some players and Gooch must go.
Oh Cook you need to have aggressive fields tomorrow. Also since Lyon bowled us out it might be an idea to get Monty on with me round the bat.
I think it may have got to the stage where some of us could actually do better!!
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Oh Cook you need to have aggressive fields tomorrow. Also since Lyon bowled us out it might be an idea to get Monty on with me round the bat.
Will you get a flight that arrives in time Paul?
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I agree with Boycott, they better not think it'll be all ok when they get back to England. The batting has been fucking atrocious for too long. What a bloody 30th birthday present waking up to this!
Happy birthday, hope we manage to deliver you three points later!
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Oh Cook you need to have aggressive fields tomorrow. Also since Lyon bowled us out it might be an idea to get Monty on with me round the bat.
Will you get a flight that arrives in time Paul?
I quite like the idea of a H+V slip cordon
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Oh Cook you need to have aggressive fields tomorrow. Also since Lyon bowled us out it might be an idea to get Monty on with me round the bat.
Will you get a flight that arrives in time Paul?
I quite like the idea of a H+V slip cordon
You first, me second. Who is our third slip? And who is stupid enough to go in at forward short leg?
I should add that I can bowl a bit, always got a bit of swing and can't bat to save my life so I'll be in good company!
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Oh Cook you need to have aggressive fields tomorrow. Also since Lyon bowled us out it might be an idea to get Monty on with me round the bat.
Will you get a flight that arrives in time Paul?
I quite like the idea of a H+V slip cordon
You first, me second. Who is our third slip? And who is stupid enough to go in at forward short leg?
I should add that I can bowl a bit, always got a bit of swing and can't bat to save my life so I'll be in good company!
I think Paul has already stated his desire to be bat-pad for the spinner, so I don't think it would be fair for him to have to field in the slips for the seamers aswell. I think he can retire to fine leg when Anderson/Broad are on.
I'd go for OzVilla as 3rd slipper. Safe pair of hands.
Forward short leg? Eastie strikes me as brave enough to do that job.
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Oh Cook you need to have aggressive fields tomorrow. Also since Lyon bowled us out it might be an idea to get Monty on with me round the bat.
Will you get a flight that arrives in time Paul?
I quite like the idea of a H+V slip cordon
I was a demon at gully (kings norton and district U11 champions, 1977). I'll have a go. Don't think the fact that I couldn't bat and that my ferocious bowling "lacks control" and "verges on dangerous" should be seen as grounds to exclude me from this side.
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Oh Cook you need to have aggressive fields tomorrow. Also since Lyon bowled us out it might be an idea to get Monty on with me round the bat.
Will you get a flight that arrives in time Paul?
I quite like the idea of a H+V slip cordon
I was a demon at gully (kings norton and district U11 champions, 1977). I'll have a go. Don't think the fact that I couldn't bat and that my ferocious bowling "lacks control" and "verges on dangerous" should be seen as grounds to exclude me from this side.
Get your bags packed asap Lastfootstamper. We'll meet you at the airport.
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Oh Cook you need to have aggressive fields tomorrow. Also since Lyon bowled us out it might be an idea to get Monty on with me round the bat.
Will you get a flight that arrives in time Paul?
I quite like the idea of a H+V slip cordon
I was a demon at gully (kings norton and district U11 champions, 1977). I'll have a go. Don't think the fact that I couldn't bat and that my ferocious bowling "lacks control" and "verges on dangerous" should be seen as grounds to exclude me from this side.
I was in the side when my school West Heath won that in 1978!
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Fucking hell this tour keeps lurching from bad to worse. Our batsmen are a complete and utter shambles and it's totally unacceptable. I'm starting to worry about Root now as well, he's becoming a make one contribution a series and then fuck all else. We may still win this game but the batting is embarrassing. Some players and Gooch must go.
Oh Cook you need to have aggressive fields tomorrow. Also since Lyon bowled us out it might be an idea to get Monty on with me round the bat.
Do you really want to be fielding around the bat pwa ;)
You're at forward short leg for Broad and Anderson Eastie.
I've got you down at no 7 in the batting order aswell. You've got licence to attack Mitchell.
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Oh Cook you need to have aggressive fields tomorrow. Also since Lyon bowled us out it might be an idea to get Monty on with me round the bat.
Will you get a flight that arrives in time Paul?
I quite like the idea of a H+V slip cordon
You first, me second. Who is our third slip? And who is stupid enough to go in at forward short leg?
I should add that I can bowl a bit, always got a bit of swing and can't bat to save my life so I'll be in good company!
I think Paul has already stated his desire to be bat-pad for the spinner, so I don't think it would be fair for him to have to field in the slips for the seamers aswell. I think he can retire to fine leg when Anderson/Broad are on.
I'd go for OzVilla as 3rd slipper. Safe pair of hands.
Forward short leg? Eastie strikes me as brave enough to do that job.
Indeed, bring it on - I'll sort out that tosser warner ;)
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So Australia haven't had to play back to back series aswell Kevin?
http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/story/704695.html
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So Australia haven't had to play back to back series aswell Kevin?
http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/story/704695.html
Clutching at straws
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I thought Bell played the most pathetic of shots to get out - really poor - you can carry one or two off form players but not 7 or 8 and few will come out of this tour with any credit .
Stokes has at least pressed his claim for the future , Root puzzles me , he seems to have lost his way - I don't really see carberry as the answer to the opening slot either , he has done ok at best but not as well as Compton did in the role - there will be several things to address before the Indians come over in the summer - to sooner Flower decides to reveal his future the better.
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Cheers chaps yeah maybe not with me around the bat!
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A shameful batting display and England have reached a new low in this series.
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It'll be very interesting to see the line up for the 1st test of the summer against Sri Lanka. My thinking would be along the lines of:
Cook
Root
Bell
Pietersen - reluctantly
Ballance
Buttler - WK
Stokes
Borthwick
Broad - Captain
Finn
Anderson/Onions
Root would have to really work at his game in fairness, but has the talent.
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It'll be very interesting to see the line up for the 1st test of the summer against Sri Lanka. My thinking would be along the lines of:
Cook
Root
Bell
Pietersen - reluctantly
Ballance
Buttler - WK
Stokes
Borthwick
Broad - Captain
Finn
Anderson/Onions
Root would have to really work at his game in fairness, but has the talent.
Pretty much bang on the money that is, apart from I would keep cook as captain and not broad.
We won in India and won the ashes at home so I think it would be harsh to take it from cook after this series-
He has not performed but his players have let him down too, give him at least the summer.
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It'll be very interesting to see the line up for the 1st test of the summer against Sri Lanka. My thinking would be along the lines of:
Cook
Root
Bell
Pietersen - reluctantly
Ballance
Buttler - WK
Stokes
Borthwick
Broad - Captain
Finn
Anderson/Onions
Root would have to really work at his game in fairness, but has the talent.
I think Root needs to be taken out of the firing line. He's clearly got the talent but I think he's suffering from a chronic lack of confidence. In the first innings he was shaking like a shitting dog when Johnson was charging in. He looked petrified. He's also only really scored in one innings in the whole series.
I'm not sure who we're playing next - if its someone crap who he could build up some confidence against I'd keep him in. If it's anyone good I'd take him out to stop him getting any further mental damage.
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Put me down for the Flintoff role. I am or was pretty quick, with buckets for hands and have scored runs at 6 and 7.
Not that I have much by way of a defence but I do hit it hard.
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I'll give keeping a go, haven't done it for years but you seem to be short. With the bat I have absolutely no foot movement so I just slog at anything with bat miles away from my body so I guess I'll take the bairstow slot there as well.
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on a lighter note…
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"Looking around the pitch, a broken team" says Aggers, and who would argue. England's captain now employing what I what call, following the ZummerZet's last visit to Edgbaston, Tresco Tactics.
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Sod the result, let's select our H & V Cricket 11. Please fill in the blanks:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10 Villan For Life
11
We need a captain and someone to do the most important job of the lot. Carry the drinks.
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Sod the result, let's select our H & V Cricket 11. Please fill in the blanks:
1
2
3
4 Eastie
5
6
7
8
9
10 Villan For Life
11
We need a captain and someone to do the most important job of the lot. Carry the drinks.
I nominate Taylor's for the captains role .
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What was cook doing with his ridiculous decision to bowl root rather than the specialist abroad and panesar - broad had 2 overs and monty came on when the game was long gone - I agree with aggers and boycott that cook needs to explain his decisions as his captaincy here gave us no hope today.
Today in my opinion we lacked fight , guts and Heart and the Aussies were laughing at how bad we were - heads must roll!
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If you worked out a combined test team from this series how many England players would be in the 11 ?
Maybe pieterson and broad at a push?
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I think I could be a useful number 7 for the team!
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Sod the result, let's select our H & V Cricket 11. Please fill in the blanks:
1
2
3
4 Eastie
5
6
7 paulwinch again
8
9
10 Villan For Life
11
We need a captain and someone to do the most important job of the lot. Carry the drinks.
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It's been a dreadful tour but barely bowling Panesar today beggars belief. Staggeringly bad from England. I think with a tour this bad Cook's captaincy is now under threat. Moving forward the only guaranteed starters for me are Cook, Bell and Broad. We mustn't produce green pitches in the summer as we need to learn how to play in conditions that don't suit us. A massive rebuilding of the team and a complete change of philosophy is required.
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I'll carry the drinks, but if they are alcoholic I can't promise there will be anything left by the time they get there.
I also boast a career best 27 in non stop cricket.
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It's been a dreadful tour but barely bowling Panesar today beggars belief. Staggeringly bad from England. I think with a tour this bad Cook's captaincy is now under threat. Moving forward the only guaranteed starters for me are Cook, Bell and Broad. We mustn't produce green pitches in the summer as we need to learn how to play in conditions that don't suit us. A massive rebuilding of the team and a complete change of philosophy is required.
I
Agree, cannot see why he wuld use root ahead of monty and broad - we had to bowl them out to win.
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I'll carry the drinks, but if they are alcoholic I can't promise there will be anything left by the time they get there.
I also boast a career best 27 in non stop cricket.
You'll do to open then ;)
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My spin bowling has a career average of about 50 but I did once take 5-30 in a game against Kinver 3rds.
Can't bat though, best put me at 11.
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Sod the result, let's select our H & V Cricket 11. Please fill in the blanks:
1
2 aj2k77
3 chris Jameson
4 Eastie
5 taylorsworkrate (cpt)
6 Cheltenham lion
7 paulwinch again
8 paul_e ( wk)
9
10 Villan For Life
11 Plumbutt Cooper
We need a captain and someone to do the most important job of the lot. Carry the drinks.
Batsmen needed - come now Taylor's , I feel you will be the man to produce a big one.
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I can bat at 3 if needed, used to open but prefer to come in first wicket down. Don't like facing spinners or left handers, always liked fielding in the covers but that was a long time ago.
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Incidentally i forgot Stokes earlier, I'd keep him at number 6 or 7 moving forward.
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Sod the result, let's select our H & V Cricket 11. Please fill in the blanks:
1
2 aj2k77
3 chris Jameson
4 Eastie
5 taylorsworkrate (cpt)
6 Cheltenham lion
7 paulwinch again
8 paul_e ( wk)
9
10 Villan For Life
11 Plumbutt Cooper
We need a captain and someone to do the most important job of the lot. Carry the drinks.
Batsmen needed - come now Taylor's , I feel you will be the man to produce a big one.
Happy to do it. Although I'll need a loyal vice captain and off course we need to find a H+V coach to implement some fresh ideas into the set up.
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I'll carry the drinks, but if they are alcoholic I can't promise there will be anything left by the time they get there.
I also boast a career best 27 in non stop cricket.
You'll be happy under my leadership then.
I'll be introducing mandatory drinking sessions at the close of play.
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I'll carry the drinks, but if they are alcoholic I can't promise there will be anything left by the time they get there.
I also boast a career best 27 in non stop cricket.
You'll be happy under my leadership then.
I'll be introducing mandatory drinking sessions at the close of play.
Close of play ? Surely you mean lunchtime , tea time and close of play ;)
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I'm a crap bat and shit scared of fast bowling. Shall I open?
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Sod the result, let's select our H & V Cricket 11. Please fill in the blanks:
1 steveN
2 aj2k77
3 chris Jameson
4 Eastie
5 taylorsworkrate (cpt)
6 Cheltenham lion
7 paulwinch again
8 paul_e ( wk)
9
10 Villan For Life
11 Plumbutt Cooper
We need a captain and someone to do the most important job of the lot. Carry the drinks.
Batsmen needed - come now Taylor's , I feel you will be the man to produce a big one.
Happy to do it. Although I'll need a loyal vice captain and off course we need to find a H+V coach to implement some fresh ideas into the set up.
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I'll say one thing that's come from this Test, KP still has miles in the tank. He played with good character and basically said 'I'll take Johnson you guys deal with Lyon'. That showed responsibility but then the others failed.
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If Boyd Rankin is not good enough to play in the final test, i can not see when he will ever play
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Sod the result, let's select our H & V Cricket 11. Please fill in the blanks:
1 steveN
2 aj2k77
3 chris Jameson
4 Eastie
5 taylorsworkrate (cpt)
6 Cheltenham lion
7 paulwinch again
8 paul_e ( wk)
9
10 Villan For Life
11 Plumbutt Cooper
We need a captain and someone to do the most important job of the lot. Carry the drinks.
Batsmen needed - come now Taylor's , I feel you will be the man to produce a big one.
Happy to do it. Although I'll need a loyal vice captain and off course we need to find a H+V coach to implement some fresh ideas into the set up.
Leave that last spot for me.
I'll do whatever for the cause, my only request is that I get to field close to the wicket so the batsmen are in earshot of me, particularly when messers Warner and Watson are batting.
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Sod the result, let's select our H & V Cricket 11. Please fill in the blanks:
1 steveN
2 aj2k77
3 chris Jameson
4 Eastie
5 taylorsworkrate (cpt)
6 Cheltenham lion
7 paulwinch again
8 paul_e ( wk)
9
10 Villan For Life
11 Plumbutt Cooper
We need a captain and someone to do the most important job of the lot. Carry the drinks.
Batsmen needed - come now Taylor's , I feel you will be the man to produce a big one.
Happy to do it. Although I'll need a loyal vice captain and off course we need to find a H+V coach to implement some fresh ideas into the set up.
Leave that last spot for me.
I'll do whatever for the cause, my only request is that I get to field close to the wicket so the batsmen are in earshot of me, particularly when messers Warner and Watson are batting.
I like the look of that side. It's got experience, tactical nous and a healthy dose of realism. Pass me a central contract!
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on a lighter note…
I actually thought Lee was a bit out of order there. I know the background to it butto run through the crease like that and just pepper him was a bit strong IMO.
Ian Healy followed it up straight after on commentary by saying Morgans effort was 'pretty ordinary'.
They are loving getting stuck into us.
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on a lighter note…
I actually thought Lee was a bit out of order there. I know the background to it butto run through the crease like that and just pepper him was a bit strong IMO.
Ian Healy followed it up straight after on commentary by saying Morgans effort was 'pretty ordinary'.
They are loving getting stuck into us.
Against virtually anyone else I'd totally agree with you. Piers Morgan however, I don't think Lee went anything like far enough.
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on a lighter note…
I actually thought Lee was a bit out of order there. I know the background to it butto run through the crease like that and just pepper him was a bit strong IMO.
Ian Healy followed it up straight after on commentary by saying Morgans effort was 'pretty ordinary'.
They are loving getting stuck into us.
I've got a bigger problem with the crowd if I'm honest, Warne called for them to give him a round of applause and there was nothing. For a none cricketer to stand there and be pelted like he was (1 of them looked like to got him clean on his right arm behind his back, that will have really hurt) and just get on with it shows a lot of guts and deserved some acknowledgement of that, even if you think he's a wanker (personally I think it's more that he knows being a wanker gets him paid more than being a decent guy).
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The crowd gave him no acknowledgement because the media has created a complete them and us mentality around this series where England and Australia are concerned.
I'm sure most of that crowd wouldn't have had a clue who Piers Morgan was, but he was just another Pommie Bastard so they flocked to see the unfair fight of him having his head knocked off - very surprised that such a decent bloke as Brett Lee obliged.
Should tell you a lot about the media driven mentality around this series and how it's venom has caught England totally by surprise (despite what they might say).
I could have told them it would be like that before they left England, just read those post UK series comments by Lehmann and Warne about Aussie crowds and media.
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Sir Richard wasn't amused - from Stuff 29/12
OPINION: As a former fast bowler I was appalled and outraged at what I witnessed during the tea break on the second day of the fourth Ashes cricket test at the MCG when former Australian fast bowler Brett Lee faced off British media host Piers Morgan in the nets.
I am so incensed I felt I needed to make comment.
While there were media jibes and a build-up to this bowling and batting contest on Friday, I could not believe my eyes - Lee's brutal assault on Morgan was extremely dangerous and unnecessary.
It was clear that Morgan could not bat or defend himself against Lee's pace and intimidation - this was an unfair and one-sided contest that could have had severe consequences. Sadly, in the past batsmen have died from receiving blows to the body.
I only hope that Brett takes a few minutes to reflect on his stupidity - this was a brain explosion of the highest order - it was a deliberate attempt to hit, injure, hurt and maim his opponent that I viewed as a form of grievous bodily harm or a human assault that could have proved fatal. Morgan, aged 48, was hit four times on the body and if he was hit on the head or across the heart the result could have been devastating.
Lee bowled only one ball at the wickets, and the other five were directed at the batman's middle to upper body and head.
Morgan had only 0.4 of a second to react and play a shot or try and defend himself against a hard, 156-gram flying missile hurled down at him from 20.12 metres at 140kmh - believe me this is not an experience the common man or players wants to endure.
I have always admired Lee as a person and as a quality fast bowler but yesterday his bowling exhibition damaged his reputation and credibility - in fact I believe he has brought the game of cricket into disrepute.
If an umpire had been standing or controlling the encounter, Lee would not have been allowed to complete the six-ball over such was his brutal assault on Morgan - he would have been removed from the crease for persistent intimidating bowling.
The ICC has an edict of fair play and upholding the spirit of the game, but that exhibition compromised those values.
I only hope that officialdom will review the incident and if necessary take some action against Lee's behaviour - perhaps a censure, fine or even a suspension for his act of stupidity and misjudgement.
Lee will have to accept there are no words than can be used to justify his decision-making and how he executed that six-ball over - it was beyond comprehension.
Given the same situation, if I wanted to embarrass Morgan for tweet jibes I would have taken more pleasure out of trying to hit the stumps six times than deliberately trying to hit him.
I believe Lee has erred badly and on reflection may realise that he has damaged the image of the game of cricket. There will be many mums and dads around the world who saw that exhibition and may decide to stop their kids from playing the game, such was the brutality and the risk to someone's life.
This should not have been shown on live television - people could have witnessed a tragic accident that the game of cricket never wants to see. Some people may have viewed this as fun and entertainment but it was not cricket - that sort of bowling against an inexperienced opponent was unacceptable.
To me there is no skill as a fast bowler to run in from 20 metres and bowl the ball halfway down the pitch, directing the ball at the batsman's body - especially when he is backing away to protect himself.
In fact I would suggest former players Mark Nicholas, Shane Warne and Michael Vaughan, who compered the exhibition, would not have enjoyed or even handled the way Lee bowled to Morgan - with all the batting experience they have had, I am sure they would not have placed themselves in that situation.
Perhaps Morgan needs to ponder whether he should have accepted the invitation to face off - he certainly has the battle scars and body blows to prove that this was "bodyline" bowling at its best, or should I say worst.
Whatever people may think, I can guarantee that most cricketers (if not all) who have played the game at the highest level would say that Lee's actions were dangerous and very wrong.
Fast bowler Sir Richard Hadlee played 86 tests for New Zealand, taking 431 wickets and scoring 3124 runs. He is recognised as NZ's greatest cricketer.
- © Fairfax NZ News
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A gentleman
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Flower sounds like he wants to stay on.
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Sod the result, let's select our H & V Cricket 11. Please fill in the blanks:
1 steveN
2 aj2k77
3 chris Jameson
4 Eastie
5 taylorsworkrate (cpt)
6 Cheltenham lion
7 paulwinch again
8 paul_e ( wk)
9 Ozvilla
10 Villan For Life
11 Plumbutt Cooper
We need a captain and someone to do the most important job of the lot. Carry the drinks.
Batsmen needed - come now Taylor's , I feel you will be the man to produce a big one.
Happy to do it. Although I'll need a loyal vice captain and off course we need to find a H+V coach to implement some fresh ideas into the set up.
Leave that last spot for me.
I'll do whatever for the cause, my only request is that I get to field close to the wicket so the batsmen are in earshot of me, particularly when messers Warner and Watson are batting.
I like the look of that side. It's got experience, tactical nous and a healthy dose of realism. Pass me a central contract!
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Flower sounds like he wants to stay on.
Surprised by his comments but he did say he will discuss the future with downton so may yet be a twist in the tail.
I see sir geoffrey has called for cook to be stripped off the captaincy - bit strong that .
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Regarding Morgan - I thought it was over the top as lee was bowling to hit him and not the wickets - that said Morgan chose to do it so must accept that those are the risks you take against fast bowlers .
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Flower sounds like he wants to stay on.
Surprised by his comments but he did say he will discuss the future with downton so may yet be a twist in the tail.
I see sir geoffrey has called for cook to be stripped off the captaincy - bit strong that .
Yep I think it's a bit strong, but I think Cook needs to explain to Downton and Flower how he's going to improve. England need to be a much more positive team, all this time wasting and negativity with run rates has led us to the difficulties we are having now.
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I think if I were Morgan I would have smashed Lee round his head for that (and then topped myself).
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Incredibly, considering how inept the batting has been since the start of his tenure, the 1st article about his position i've seen.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2013/dec/30/ashes-graham-gooch-england-batting-malaise
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It'll be very interesting to see the line up for the 1st test of the summer against Sri Lanka. My thinking would be along the lines of:
Cook
Root
Bell
Pietersen - reluctantly
Ballance
Buttler - WK
Stokes
Borthwick
Broad - Captain
Finn
Anderson/Onions
Root would have to really work at his game in fairness, but has the talent.
Yeah that looks about right to me. Maybe use Compton or persist with Carberry as a stopgap at opener (like the Australians have done with Rogers) and bat Root a little further down the order until he finds his feet.
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It'll be very interesting to see the line up for the 1st test of the summer against Sri Lanka. My thinking would be along the lines of:
Cook
Root
Bell
Pietersen - reluctantly
Ballance
Buttler - WK
Stokes
Borthwick
Broad - Captain
Finn
Anderson/Onions
Root would have to really work at his game in fairness, but has the talent.
Yeah that looks about right to me. Maybe use Compton or persist with Carberry as a stopgap at opener (like the Australians have done with Rogers) and bat Root a little further down the order until he finds his feet.
I would go
Robson
Root
Cook
Bell
Ballance
Buttler
Stokes
Borthwick
Broad - Captain
Finn
Anderson
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It'll be very interesting to see the line up for the 1st test of the summer against Sri Lanka. My thinking would be along the lines of:
Cook
Root
Bell
Pietersen - reluctantly
Ballance
Buttler - WK
Stokes
Borthwick
Broad - Captain
Finn
Anderson/Onions
Root would have to really work at his game in fairness, but has the talent.
Yeah that looks about right to me. Maybe use Compton or persist with Carberry as a stopgap at opener (like the Australians have done with Rogers) and bat Root a little further down the order until he finds his feet.
Not a bad team selection - cook for captain though- he's had a stinker this time but deserves another shot at it as this is his first series defeat .
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It'll be very interesting to see the line up for the 1st test of the summer against Sri Lanka. My thinking would be along the lines of:
Cook
Root
Bell
Pietersen - reluctantly
Ballance
Buttler - WK
Stokes
Borthwick
Broad - Captain
Finn
Anderson/Onions
Root would have to really work at his game in fairness, but has the talent.
Yeah that looks about right to me. Maybe use Compton or persist with Carberry as a stopgap at opener (like the Australians have done with Rogers) and bat Root a little further down the order until he finds his feet.
Not a bad team selection - cook for captain though- he's had a stinker this time but deserves another shot at it as this is his first series defeat .
I don't like an opener being captain for the very reason that Cook has displayed in the last couple of series, a day in the field organising and then going in to bat straight away doesn't get you mentally right. I'd rather see a middle order batsman take it. In terms of importance to the side, expereince, etc Bell is the perfect choice, but I don't think he'd want to do it in the slightest.
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Brearley, Strauss and vaughan were all captain and openers and coped well in the roles - he has lost one series in 6 and that's not too bad a record at all - when we won in India and beat the Aussies 3-0 there was no clamour about him - he has been poor this series but what can any captain do when 7 or 8 players are misfiring - he will have learnt an awful lot in this series about himself and the team.
Give him at least the summer .
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It's not about his performance as captain, i's about his performance as a batsman, which is being badly affected at times. Wasn't Vaughan at 3 for most of his time as captain? Strauss did ok but again his batting average went down when he was captain.
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I don't like captains being openers either to be honest, I think number 3 is the best role.
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It shouldn't make a difference, after all the only time you are really doing the proper captaining and having to make decisions is when you are in the field.
Opening didn't seem to phase Cook in his early Tests as captain, in fact he thrived, and it didn't seem to bother Alec Stewart who managed to combine opening and wicket keeping with being a decent enough captain.
This is really the first time Cook has been under really intense pressure as captain and it has affected his form, it's how he bounces back from this that is the key, so he should definitely get the start of the summer tests and then the assessments can be made. Besides, at the moment I can't see a replacement I'd like to take over. Not Bell, he's never captained a side for any length of time, not Broad, he's too hot-headed from what I've seen. Who else is there? In the long term I can see Root as captain, he seems to have the combination of decision making and coolness that can be nurtured.
England are going to have to bring in some youngsters if they want to start the rebuild, and the experience of Cook and Bell will be vital in easing the new batsmen into the side.
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I agree with all of that, I never actually said he shouldn't be captain, I just don't like openers as captains in general. When we're bowling at the tail I want my openers in nice calm fielding positions where they can be getting a look at the pitch and thinking a bout what they're going to do to see off the first 25-30 overs. In at slip or covering the straight drive on one side.
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Yeah, it's got to be still Cook as Captain (if he wants it) and Flower to stay on (again if he wants to) but I'd like to see changes to our approach ad general intent.
The bottom line is, it's only 14 Tests till we play for the Ashes again in 2015 so if they don't think certain players will be around for then they should be moved out once the series is over.
I still see a future for Prior (he's 32 - Haddin is 36 and had to make a similar comeback) but the one who worries me now is Anderson moving forward.
Compton, Robson, Carberry and Root are all candidates to open along with AN Other who can stake a claim, quite like the thought of Cook at 3 (just not sure he will).
Australia where talking about this home Ashes series 2 years ago in a Mickey Arthur's first press conference - thats how long they've had it in their minds to the point that it seemed all other series where all trials for these two Ashes series. I'd be quite happy to see England do the same now tbh.
Not sure we should throw in another debutant into this nightmare series in Sydney. Injuries aside, would prefer this lot to take their medicine (5-0, 4-0, 4-1) hardly taters in the big scheme anymore and then rethink and rebuild at home.
And most of them will have to endure the one day series too which might not be much fun either.
Oh to be a Pom in Oz right now - happy days!!!
(it'd also help if the Villa weren't so shite too).
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Fuck the Ashes, when is the H+V team doing a tour of somewhere like Somerset?
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Strauss struggled towards the end of his reign of being captain and opener. Vaughan was no.3 when I started watching Cricket. I'm not one for having Captains open either and ideally we would have opener good enough to allow us to move him down to number 3. Cook could then do what Trott had been doing - being a solid lynchpin when we're in trouble. Of course, if we had been in the field long and then one of the openers lost a wicket, then there would be no difference. So finding good openers is going to be crucial.
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Fuck the Ashes, when is the H+V team doing a tour of somewhere like Somerset?
I was rather hoping we would take in Barbados or somewhere warmer ;)
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The team selection for the last test will be interesting. Cook said in his press conference that there could be 3 debutants. This would presumably be Balance, Borthwick and Rankin in for Carberry, Bresnan and Panesar.
I like the idea of bringing in fresh blood when there is nothing left to play for but that old cliché, pride.
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The team selection for the last test will be interesting. Cook said in his press conference that there could be 3 debutants. This would presumably be Balance, Borthwick and Rankin in for Carberry, Bresnan and Panesar.
I like the idea of bringing in fresh blood when there is nothing left to play for but that old cliché, pride.
I'd expect ballance , borthwick and rankin to play too, hopefully Bell at 3 and lets see how we get on - will be an interesting test match .
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Borthwick looks pretty certain to play as Monty isn't likely to be fit.
I can understand Rankin playing as well (Broad has to play but Jimmy hasn't bowled well and Bres hasn't provided the batting at in the tail that he's there for, I can see a case to drop both and call up Finn as well).
I'm not sure with Ballance, with the team as it stands 5 would be his obvious position, which means Bell dropping out (unlikely) or moving up to 3. If you move Bell up do you drop Root (he's the weakest of the batsmen from the last test on current form) or move him up and drop Carberry (which would be harsh in my opinion but probably makes sense long term). Personally I'd go for 'resting' Root.
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@MichaelVaughan: Hearing 3 debuts for England tomorrow and what looks like a lively pitch... Going to be a very interesting week at the SCG..!!!!!!
@MichaelVaughan: My team would be... Cook,Root,Bell,KP,Balance,Borthwick,Stokes,Bairstow,Broad,Finn and Anderson.... #Ashes...
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Fuck the Ashes, when is the H+V team doing a tour of somewhere like Somerset?
I was rather hoping we would take in Barbados or somewhere warmer ;)
I think we need to get some practice in first. I suggest we start in the Rose Villa tavern and take it from there.
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Fuck the Ashes, when is the H+V team doing a tour of somewhere like Somerset?
I was rather hoping we would take in Barbados or somewhere warmer ;)
I think we need to get some practice in first. I suggest we start in the Rose Villa tavern and take it from there.
I suggest the Barbados Hilton and take it from there .
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I'd like to see Finn involved as I think we need to build a bowling unit around him. My concern is around Bairstow at wicketkeeper, I really don't understand why he's jumped the queue.
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I'd like to see Finn involved as I think we need to build a bowling unit around him. My concern is around Bairstow at wicketkeeper, I really don't understand why he's jumped the queue.
I think Bairstow will get this last test and that's about it - not a good enough keeper for me .
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Buttler should be the long term option behind the stumps, he's a far better keeper, the downside has been that he got pigeon-holed as a T20 finisher with the bat but his technique is a lot better than he's given credit for and I think he was very unlucky not to go on the tour as the backup.
I like that team Vaughan has put up, harsh on Carberry and it's a bit rough to take Rankin and not play him but it would show a clear intention to bed in some younger players for the long-term good.
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Buttler should be the long term option behind the stumps, he's a far better keeper, the downside has been that he got pigeon-holed as a T20 finisher with the bat but his technique is a lot better than he's given credit for and I think he was very unlucky not to go on the tour as the backup.
I like that team Vaughan has put up, harsh on Carberry and it's a bit rough to take Rankin and not play him but it would show a clear intention to bed in some younger players for the long-term good.
Agreed, buttler is the best option for the summer - carberry has done ok but no better than Compton did - we need to plan ahead now.
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How long term is Rankin though? he's 29. I think Finn's a must better option long term.
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How long term is Rankin though? he's 29. I think Finn's a must better option long term.
I think Finn will play tonight .
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I think Rankin will.
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I think Rankin will.
I wouldn't be adverse to both having a game if it came to it .
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Fuck the Ashes, when is the H+V team doing a tour of somewhere like Somerset?
I was rather hoping we would take in Barbados or somewhere warmer ;)
I think we need to get some practice in first. I suggest we start in the Rose Villa tavern and take it from there.
I suggest the Barbados Hilton and take it from there .
Too windy there. Right on the Peninsula, between the Caribbean and Atlantic.
I suggest further up the coast, towards St James and Holetown.
I can bowl a bit.
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Fuck the Ashes, when is the H+V team doing a tour of somewhere like Somerset?
I was rather hoping we would take in Barbados or somewhere warmer ;)
I think we need to get some practice in first. I suggest we start in the Rose Villa tavern and take it from there.
I suggest the Barbados Hilton and take it from there .
Too windy there. Right on the Peninsula, between the Caribbean and Atlantic.
I suggest further up the coast, towards St James and Holetown.
I can bowl a bit.
Holetown sounds fine - you book the hotel rooms and you can be bowling coach ;)
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Rankin spotted having a long chat with Flower in the nets this morning. @tmsproducer
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Rankin spotted having a long chat with Flower in the nets this morning. @tmsproducer
Love him to get Warner right on the nugget.
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Took them long enough to put Bell at 3.
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Root dropped? That's very weird, there doesn't appear a lot of forward thinking to our selection. Does that mean Root's out for summer now?!
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we won the bloody toss. Also 1st time in History that Australia have been able to play the same 11 in a five match series,
I reckon the odds on those two things alone must have been 1000 to 1
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Root dropped? That's very weird, there doesn't appear a lot of forward thinking to our selection. Does that mean Root's out for summer now?!
Dropping Root is all about protecting Cook.I was expecting to sit this one out with a ''back injury''.
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No, I think it's tough on Carberry if they dropped him after maybe giving him instructions about playing the anchor role.
Root will be back no doubt. They clearly want another stroke player in Ballance so if Carberry approaches with a different and more natural to him mindset then it quite an attacking batting line up.
Fair play to Australia, same 11 throughout the series. How any have England used?
Tells you all you need to know in that stat alone!
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No, I think it's tough on Carberry if they dropped him after maybe giving him instructions about playing the anchor role.
Root will be back no doubt. They clearly want another stroke player in Ballance so if Carberry approaches with a different and more natural to him mindset then it quite an attacking batting line up.
Fair play to Australia, same 11 throughout the series. How any have England used?
Tells you all you need to know in that stat alone!
18 it's a record.
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Root's been getting in the side on potential alone. That shouldn't be the basis of the selection policy.
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Yes! Fuck off Warner.
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Excellent delivery to get him, Broad has bowled really well this tour, one of the few bright spots for us.
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No, I think it's tough on Carberry if they dropped him after maybe giving him instructions about playing the anchor role.
Root will be back no doubt. They clearly want another stroke player in Ballance so if Carberry approaches with a different and more natural to him mindset then it quite an attacking batting line up.
Fair play to Australia, same 11 throughout the series. How any have England used?
Tells you all you need to know in that stat alone!
18 it's a record.
So is Finn the only one that hasn't played?
If so I'm not sure if it's a good one to miss or a damning inditment. Or both!
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Excellent delivery to get him, Broad has bowled really well this tour, one of the few bright spots for us.
The bowling side of the team has been ok despite Swann and Anderson not being on top form. It's the batting that's shameful.
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Interesting interview with Boycott on espncricinfo:
England have disintegrated mentally (http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/video_audio/706245.html)
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Come on Boyd.
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Excellent delivery to get him, Broad has bowled really well this tour, one of the few bright spots for us.
The bowling side of the team has been ok despite Swann and Anderson not being on top form. It's the batting that's shameful.
We've bowled ok but only Broad has looked consistently good, Jimmy has been really poor at times (this morning for example) where is length is all a bit nothing. He needs to get back to his groove because he''s been average for 7-8 matches now, other than the odd short spell and it's not a great situation for our lead bowler to be in.
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Come on Boyd.
I like Boyd because he has some heart and aggression , but I have watched at least 90% of Warwickshire's County Championship games in the last 2 seasons, and there is usually a Warks fan shouting "get the (last bowler) back on" not too long after the introduction of the big Ulsterman.
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I'm a big Boyd fan and i suppose i'm pleased that England have opted to bowl first which gives Rankin and Borthwick the opportunity to get into the game nice and
early, Boyd now 2 overs under his belt, a steady start and i suppose Borthwick will get an opportunity some time before lunch.
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He's not rapid but just looks an awkward bowler to face. He does need to hit that off stump/4th stump line to be effective.
Yes, Stokes takes a wicket.
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As an aside, no Richie Benaud again in his Test so he's missed the whole series for the first time in nearly 50 years.
End of an era with Tony Greig gone, no Richie and Bill Lawry only doing Melbourne - such a shame as one of the delights about living in Oz is that you still got to listen to Richie and those other two.
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As an aside, no Richie Benaud again in his Test so he's missed the whole series for the first time in nearly 50 years.
End of an era with Tony Greig gone, no Richie and Bill Lawry only doing Melbourne - such a shame as one of the delights about living in Oz is that you still got to listen to Richie and those other two.
Agreed, and it was a real treat to hear Bill Lawry being interviewed by Aggers on TMS during the last game.
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Turned out to be a good session for England, always good to get rid of Clarke cheaply. Ben Stokes doing well.
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4 down well done England.One worry for me us the uneven bounce on the 1st morning,we have to bat last.
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At the start of that last over before lunch i was somewhat disappointed that Borthwick wasnt given the opportunity, how wrong i was Anderson getting
Watson absolutely plum...94-4 not a bad mornings work.
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Excellent session. Let's capitalise on it for the first time this series.
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If you put the opposition in, you have to bowl them out for under 250. We are well on the way to get them out below that. Massive session coming up. Get Haddin out cheaply and were on our way. Come on England.
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97 for 5. Broad sorts Bailey out. Keep going lads.
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Rankin's left hammy fracked, by the look of things.
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Oh! What a shock. We get them 5 down for 97 , then normal service resumes. I must be mad to keep watching this.
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I know, it's so predictable I don't get excited anymore until we get then down to the ninth wicket.
Even then it never ends quickly.
Part time leg spinner on (after Swann ran away) and a part time wicket keeper fumbles.
Haddin gets another 50.
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Haddin looks like Brian Lara against us. It has to be a mental thing.
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We are desperate at trying to get rid of the lower order. Some very poor bowling.
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Let's have another big shout out to Greame Swann - who cowardly ran away from the series when the personal going got too tough for him and his precious reputation, leaving England to have to throw the like of Borthwick and Rankin like lambs to the slaughter.
We really miss the likes of Swann today, a bit of experience and presence in the attack. But no. Not Greame.
He wasn't bowling well and the batting was getting dangerous so despite signing a new 12 month central contract only 3 months ago, he ran away MON style and left his team mates exposing the youngsters along the way.
Today was a day where we needed players like Swann out there, no doubt hell be giving some slightly immature slant on it in The Sun, whilst praising Borthwicks 'ticker' and 'raw talent'.
I feel a little sorry for the boys out there today, at least they've stuck in out when all is going wrong.
Wonder if Swanny will say the same?
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Rumour has it Rankin needed a fitness test before the start of play today.
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Ozvilla. Completely agree with you about Swann. Must see this 25 minute spell out now.
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Not a cloud an the sky an hour ago.
Suddenly England come in to bat and it's gone overcast and muggy.
It'd be a real confidence boost if we could see this through non down to stumps.
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Here we go. 1 down for 6.
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Yet again! We have them at 97-5 on the ropes and fail to take the chance allowing them to reach 326 .
Carberry out for 0 and we are up against it again - add in rankin being injured and out of the game and we have 3 bowlers plus borthwick - a sad tour shows every sign of ending in whitewash.
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Yet again! We have them at 97-5 on the ropes and fail to take the chance allowing them to reach 326 .
Carberry out for 0 and we are up against it again - add in rankin being injured and out of the game and we have 3 bowlers plus borthwick - a sad tour shows every sign of ending in whitewash.
5 Live reporting that Rankin went off with cramp and that he will bowl in the second innings.
The more embarrassing this tour gets the more I find myself agreeing with Boycott. He talks an awful lot of sense or am I just getting old?
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This selection looks to have gone wrong again. Borthwick isn't ready to be a first choice spinner, Rankin wasn't fit. It's all a bit muddled sadly, but at least Stokes stepped up.
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Yet again! We have them at 97-5 on the ropes and fail to take the chance allowing them to reach 326 .
Carberry out for 0 and we are up against it again - add in rankin being injured and out of the game and we have 3 bowlers plus borthwick - a sad tour shows every sign of ending in whitewash.
5 Live reporting that Rankin went off with cramp and that he will bowl in the second innings.
The more embarrassing this tour gets the more I find myself agreeing with Boycott. He talks an awful lot of sense or am I just getting old?
Cramp- he only bowled one ball before going off again? Looked more like a hamstring but if true maybe there's hope in the 2nd innings - if he only passed a late fitness test it seems a bit odd .
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The more embarrassing this tour gets the more I find myself agreeing with Boycott. He talks an awful lot of sense or am I just getting old?
I cannot stand Boycott as a person but he's very rarely wrong when it comes to the cricket.
Hadn't realised Swann had used the pages of The Sun to announce his retirement, even less respect for him now.
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I just hope this game doesn't damage Borthwick too badly. I still believe Finn is the man they should be building their attack around, I just do see it with Rankin in the long term.
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In this series, Australia's last 5 wickets are averaging more than their first 5 with all their top 6 batsmen ave between 14 and 34 runs for the first dig
Just shows how important the performances of both Haddin and Johnson have been for them.
Taking nothing away from Australia as they've completely outplayed England in every facet but its also true to say that without either Haddin or Johnson they simply wouldn't be in this position.
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As a Bear I'm pleased to see Rankin get a test cap. What is incredible is that Finn has not been selected for any of the 5 tests. He now seems to have slipped behind Stokes as 3rd seamer.
I'd have selected Finn ahead of Rankin for this test purely on the basis of Finn's greater test experience. If they want to build future attacks around Finn then this is a strange way to go about it.
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In this series, Australia's last 5 wickets are averaging more than their first 5 with all their top 6 batsmen ave between 14 and 34 runs for the first dig
Just shows how important the performances of both Haddin and Johnson have been for them.
Taking nothing away from Australia as they've completely outplayed England in every facet but its also true to say that without either Haddin or Johnson they simply wouldn't be in this position.
To a large extent it's been down to our approach to bowling at the tail, put simply we give them far too much respect, look at Mitchell Johnson bowling to our tail and you see a bully who knows the guy he's facing would rather have the ball in his hand than a bat so he bowls aggressive and makes them play shots and test their technique, we persist with a line to 4th/5th stump at a good length, so they can leave it alone and just score from the bad balls, there's just no great pressure.
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In this series, Australia's last 5 wickets are averaging more than their first 5 with all their top 6 batsmen ave between 14 and 34 runs for the first dig
Just shows how important the performances of both Haddin and Johnson have been for them.
Taking nothing away from Australia as they've completely outplayed England in every facet but its also true to say that without either Haddin or Johnson they simply wouldn't be in this position.
To a large extent it's been down to our approach to bowling at the tail, put simply we give them far too much respect, look at Mitchell Johnson bowling to our tail and you see a bully who knows the guy he's facing would rather have the ball in his hand than a bat so he bowls aggressive and makes them play shots and test their technique, we persist with a line to 4th/5th stump at a good length, so they can leave it alone and just score from the bad balls, there's just no great pressure.
A couple of points crossed my mind reading these posts.
We always struggle to finish sides off. Our attack can and does make inroads into the opposition top order. Maybe we just aren't ruthless enough. The great West Indian sides from the mid-70's to the late-80's never let this happen neither did the Aussies under Border, Taylor Waugh or Ponting.
The other thing is that the series over here last summer was closer than the 3-0 score line suggests. Take Bell out of the equation and we were decidedly average. Whether this series ends up 5-0, 4-0 or 4-1 we have been resoundly beaten by an average Aussie side with a couple of players bang on form in Haddin and Johnson.
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In this series, Australia's last 5 wickets are averaging more than their first 5 with all their top 6 batsmen ave between 14 and 34 runs for the first dig
Just shows how important the performances of both Haddin and Johnson have been for them.
Taking nothing away from Australia as they've completely outplayed England in every facet but its also true to say that without either Haddin or Johnson they simply wouldn't be in this position.
To a large extent it's been down to our approach to bowling at the tail, put simply we give them far too much respect, look at Mitchell Johnson bowling to our tail and you see a bully who knows the guy he's facing would rather have the ball in his hand than a bat so he bowls aggressive and makes them play shots and test their technique, we persist with a line to 4th/5th stump at a good length, so they can leave it alone and just score from the bad balls, there's just no great pressure.
A couple of points crossed my mind reading these posts.
We always struggle to finish sides off. Our attack can and does make inroads into the opposition top order. Maybe we just aren't ruthless enough. The great West Indian sides from the mid-70's to the late-80's never let this happen neither did the Aussies under Border, Taylor Waugh or Ponting.
The other thing is that the series over here last summer was closer than the 3-0 score line suggests. Take Bell out of the equation and we were decidedly average. Whether this series ends up 5-0, 4-0 or 4-1 we have been resoundly beaten by an average Aussie side with a couple of players bang on form in Haddin and Johnson.
You have to include Warner in that, he's been very important at the top of the innings for them but being so aggressive from the off. He's had a few low scores but he's been a key figure in setting the tempo for them and, as much as I don't like to admit it, he's looked a great player. Been excellent in the field as well.
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The Aussies run rate was well over 4 an over - impressive .
Several times in this series we have 5 down and a low score and they have put on big stands to get out of trouble - it's disappointing we lack the killer touch .
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Watching the highlights I really do like Ben Stokes, he's got a lot about him. I also think in time Borthwick could be very useful.
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Watching the highlights I really do like Ben Stokes, he's got a lot about him. I also think in time Borthwick could be very useful.
One thing also about borthwick is he is a tremendous fielder - not sure his bowling is test match level but time will tell, stokes has without doubt been the best thing to come from this tour.
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Watching the highlights I really do like Ben Stokes, he's got a lot about him. I also think in time Borthwick could be very useful.
One thing also about borthwick is he is a tremendous fielder - not sure his bowling is test match level but time will tell, stokes has without doubt been the best thing to come from this tour.
Borthwick's bowling needs a lot of work, but it has potential.
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Yet again! We have them at 97-5 on the ropes and fail to take the chance allowing them to reach 326 .
Carberry out for 0 and we are up against it again - add in rankin being injured and out of the game and we have 3 bowlers plus borthwick - a sad tour shows every sign of ending in whitewash.
5 Live reporting that Rankin went off with cramp and that he will bowl in the second innings.
Depends whether the Aussies elect to enforce the follow on.
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Terrible leave Cook, absolutely shocking. That sums up the tour in one non shot.
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Bell dropped first ball, our batting line up is a shambles.
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what the fuck is Bell doing? he just bumped another up in the air. How the fuck did we let them get 325 as well?
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Anderson smashed on the hand from a Johnson bouncer as well.
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There needs to be a big big rebuild after this tour, this team has been on the decline for about a year and a half with a brief spike in India. However there are lots of problems to address.
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can we go home yet ???
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Also it should be noted their bowlers are bowling much better than ours as well, much better lengths. We should go on the attack here, because it's better than dying wondering.
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Pietersen gone, we'll be lucky to get 3 figures here. What an utter shambles.
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I know it easier said then done, but we just need to get through the new ball and batting should become easier.
That's whats happens in Australia but unfortunately we aren't good enough to do it.
KP gone now, can't see us getting to 100.
Harris and Johnson bowling superbly.
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17/4 Fcuk me - Pietersen now gone....we may not avoid the follow on here. Bell must get his head down and just hope that Ballance isnt too nervous
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This is a right kick up the jacksy on the way out isn't it. Cook, shite, his brain has gone walkabout this tour. 10 overs to score 14 runs, pathetic, they have been running scared all tour.
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Their batsmen have been better, their lower order has been miles better, their bowlers have been better and their fielding has been better. We've been an utter shambles all tour and have been massively let down by our senior players.
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Horrible situation for Ballance.
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Struggle to make 50 here.
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Horrible situation for Ballance.
Well let's face it, the senior players have given the new players no chance in this series they've been diabolical on the whole. The only senior player to do his job is Broad and that's only with the ball.
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Oh and Jimmy had no excuse for his lack of wicket taking on this pitch, it's moving off the seam.
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I really do believe that circumstance has worked against us. Long summer schedule and Ashes tour and another Aussie Ashes series to play in. They had something to prove and to go for. Their tails were also up after changing the coach and becoming competitive, we were losing players and starting to look disjointed. They aren't as good as this but we are currently this bad.
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I really do believe that circumstance has worked against us. Long summer schedule and Ashes tour and another Aussie Ashes series to play in. They had something to prove and to go for. Their tails were also up after changing the coach and becoming competitive, we were losing players and starting to look disjointed. They aren't as good as this but we are currently this bad.
I think that may have played a small part, but if you look at England's performances since the summer 2012 we've been on the decline. I know we beat India, but they were a side right at the end of their cycle as well. England have not addressed the big issues we've had for a while, because we were limping along winning. However this series is where all our problems have come home to roost. Our batsmen have been failing as a unit for a long while, our run rates don't put the opposition under enough pressure, we're too negative and our bowlers have now lost their ruthlessness.
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This Bell innings looks like the sort where he'll get about 10-20. I may be wrong, but he's getting bogged down and that's when he struggles.
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Oh I gave him too much credit, he got 2.
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Bell gone, I'll be very, very surprised if he get to 100 here.
Another catastrophic batting performance.
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At 23/5 i will say goodnight....can't watch any more of this debacle........''Goodnight''
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Problem is we haven't once shown that we've learnt anything from our troubles.
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If you sit in and defend on this pitch you will get out and we're going nowhere as we have done all series.
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I genuinely believe this has got to be the worst tour in the history of English cricket.
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There was a debacle to India in the early 90's where hey famously dropped the inform David Gower for being too old and recalled the out of form and recently returned from the SA rebel tour Mike Gatting who was the same age as Gower.
It didn't get any better if memory serves.
This must be a contender though. As shambling tours goes this one's a hard one to beat.
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Hopefully a couple of the new lads will score some runs. That is all we can hope after this catastrophic start. If we follow on we will be all out tonight and that will fuck tomorrow's McGraths charity day up. Hopefully that does not happen.
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86/6 now oh dear
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Stokes is the only shining light. If someone could only stop with him, we might make a fist of it.
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155 All out. Shambles. Cook, Bell and Peterson need to take a long hard look at themselves. All that experience counted for fuck-all on this tour. Time to rebuild.
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One stat that has amazed me is that prior to this Test Match, if you added up Australia's first 5 wickets in 1st innings in comparison to England's 1st 5 wickets the difference would only be 6 runs in Australia's favour.
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I genuinely believe this has got to be the worst tour in the history of English cricket.
I think the 5-0 in 2006/07 was worse but this one runs it close.
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I genuinely believe this has got to be the worst tour in the history of English cricket.
I think the 5-0 in 2006/07 was worse but this one runs it close.
This is worse for me - we have been hammered by a good but not great side - in 2006 we were beaten by an extremely good side with top top players in their team .
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I genuinely believe this has got to be the worst tour in the history of English cricket.
I think the 5-0 in 2006/07 was worse but this one runs it close.
For just the shambolic way we've gone about the tour, Trotts illness, Swann comments about being fair weathered fans and then running away himself when the going got tough, Swann AGAIN with his dumb newspaper columns about players, Giles Clarke complaining about the media thus cementing our tag as 'whinging poms', the utterly dreadful nature of the defeats, the lack of practically any high points (one hundred all series), the fact that Australia (a good team) are not in the same league oa their 06/07 counterparts, the repetitive nature of every Test Match which makes you wonder what they say to each other in the team meetings (I feel like I've watched the same Test Match 5 times now), the fact we pick 3 tall bowlers out of form and not the leading wicket taker in the country, oh and then don't play the bowlers at the places you've picked them to play at, move a young batsmen just starting out 3 times in the series and not the one player who should be batting 3 until you decide to drop the player you've continually messed about, turning your attacking opening batsmen into someone who makes Chris Tavere look like Adam Gilchrist, throwing in a young lad playing Grade Cricket because you don't fancy the bloke you've actually picked as your 2 nd spinner, giving pretty much every Aussie batsmen several lives whenever they've scored a hundred (Haddin 3 in Adelaide, Watson 2 in Perth, Warner 3 in Perth, Rodgers 2 in Melbourne), taking wickets off no balls, allowing Nathan Lyon to take 5 wickets without turning a single ball and generally putting in performances so poor that your Aussie friends are so embarrassed for you the now try to avoid the subject.
It's been a fucking shambles.
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Good job they had the 82 page dietary plans otherwise it could have been a disastrous series.
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This is worse, we actually had a chance of winning a game in 06/07 and we were playing a legendary team.
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Good job they had the 82 page dietary plans otherwise it could have been a disastrous series.
Maybe they should give all the batsmen a 1 line plan on how to deal with a straight ball
'' DO NOT LEAVE IT, YOU WILL BE BOWLED OR LBW''
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Flower needs to take note from Lehmann's approach, we need our dressing room to be a lot more relaxed with less of a fear of failure. The best player has been Stokes and he hasn't been exposed to the dressing room for too long, that's telling. Look at Root in India, he came in a played well with little fear of failure. However after a year in the dressing room he's tentative and nervous. It has to stop and the players need to enjoy playing again.
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The bigger issue for me is this pitch seems to be similar to Durham where, eventually, the pitch is going to do for you. In that situation you have to bat with some intent. Quite often just trying to dig in is the worst approach but it's our only tactic, we need to start trusting people to go for it more. The main issue is the one player who regularly tries to it for us get slagged off for it and called irresponsible, so it's no shock that we have lots of batsmen who are are scared of getting out from trying to play to expansively.
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The bigger issue for me is this pitch seems to be similar to Durham where, eventually, the pitch is going to do for you. In that situation you have to bat with some intent. Quite often just trying to dig in is the worst approach but it's our only tactic, we need to start trusting people to go for it more. The main issue is the one player who regularly tries to it for us get slagged off for it and called irresponsible, so it's no shock that we have lots of batsmen who are are scared of getting out from trying to play to expansively.
I think the whole approach from the coaching staff down is negative. It was something I complained about when we were winning, our run rates dropped to around 2.5 an over and we never put pressure on the opposition. However it was rationalised away, because we were winning. It's becoming very apparent now you can't just trundle along, you need to pressurise the opposition bowlers. If we can address that whole mindset it'll go along way towards solving our problems, we need to look at Australia's approach.
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2. Five times England's top five batsmen have been out for a combined total of fewer than 20 runs.
That stat is absolutely fucking horrendous.
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The bigger issue for me is this pitch seems to be similar to Durham where, eventually, the pitch is going to do for you. In that situation you have to bat with some intent. Quite often just trying to dig in is the worst approach but it's our only tactic, we need to start trusting people to go for it more. The main issue is the one player who regularly tries to it for us get slagged off for it and called irresponsible, so it's no shock that we have lots of batsmen who are are scared of getting out from trying to play to expansively.
Pietersen backs himself into a corner as much as the other players these days. Most of his innings now he plays so negatively that the pressure builds and he then feels he has to play a ridiculous shot.
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I think I will give this a miss tonight - I've had enough sporting fiascos for today :(
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The bigger issue for me is this pitch seems to be similar to Durham where, eventually, the pitch is going to do for you. In that situation you have to bat with some intent. Quite often just trying to dig in is the worst approach but it's our only tactic, we need to start trusting people to go for it more. The main issue is the one player who regularly tries to it for us get slagged off for it and called irresponsible, so it's no shock that we have lots of batsmen who are are scared of getting out from trying to play to expansively.
Pietersen backs himself into a corner as much as the other players these days. Most of his innings now he plays so negatively that the pressure builds and he then feels he has to play a ridiculous shot.
I agree, but that's on the back of being slagged off in the press and on twitter, etc every time he gave away his wicket trying to add some impetuous into the side. I'm convinced he's nothing like as arrogant as he's made out to be but he dares to play with an intent which has all but disappeared from English Test cricket.
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Kp bowling oh fuck off sport today.
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I like Stokes, and along with Broad he's been the only player to emerge with any sort of respect in this series.
However, it seems a little odd that he tried to give Johnson a bit of a send off when he got him out today. We are losing 4-0 Ben, after being humiliated 4 times and in the process of a 5th humiliation.
The time to try to get in their faces is long gone.
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266 for 9
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57-3.
This series we've played like an old, blind, arthritic dog that's doesn't enjoy life and needs to be put out of its misery.
I believe the Australians have us booked in for a trip to the vets later today.
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I will try the first post with vitriol. As long as we beat the dirty convict bastards again I dont care who we pick.
Sorry mate :D
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Congratulations Wilywombat and all my fellow ;) Australians.
Can't imagine there's ever been a more comprehensive defeat in a 5 Test series in history.
England surrendered today, no other word for it. Only batted for 31 overs. Cook admitted the team had "nothing left to give". Very telling words and heads absolutely must roll.
It's almost inconcievable that the same management team, Captain and team can move forward without significant changes to personnel and mindset.
I know this is only one series loss in however many but the manner and deficit of the losses are too great for the current set up to sustain.
At least it's over now and I still have the Villa in my life to bring me sporting joy. Oh wait......... :'(
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Hell, how i sometimes wish i did not eat,sleep and dream cricket and football .After having to witness my football team give spineless performances ,i then have to watch my cricket team do the same .My father has a lot to answer for !
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Another total hammering - bowled out in less than 32 overs - humiliating in the extreme - thank god this series is over !
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Interesting to hear vaughan saying how ashamed he felt as today for the first time in his life he saw an England side 'throw in the towel ' - how sad.
Well done wombat you old rascal, enjoy your win - we WILL be back !
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Time to lock the thread I can't take anymore.
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As bad as anything England have ever produced, absolutely pathetic. Stokes is the only highlight. Very strange that Flower specifically talked about Finn in the post match interview, the only player not to play. We need a change on personnel and philosophy.
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Cook was adamant on interview that he and flower are the men to put things right - lets hope so but it will be a big job and they need to be strong in their leadership .
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And to think I actually stayed up to watch that ! It's like some kind of morbid fascination similar to turning up to VP next Monday ;)
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Happy with Stokes, Happy with Broad (who even had the right attitude with the bat in this last test) struggling to be happy about anything else.
As a key we need Cook to start looking like a capable international opener again, he's been largely poor for over a year, at the moment he's a poor captain and a poor batsman we really need him to fix the latter, if that means finding someone else to be captain then so be it. Seeing your captain give is wicket away with shocking shot selection isn't what you want when the whole team is devoid of confidence and fight.
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Happy with Stokes, Happy with Broad (who even had the right attitude with the bat in this last test) struggling to be happy about anything else.
As a key we need Cook to start looking like a capable international opener again, he's been largely poor for over a year, at the moment he's a poor captain and a poor batsman we really need him to fix the latter, if that means finding someone else to be captain then so be it. Seeing your captain give is wicket away with shocking shot selection isn't what you want when the whole team is devoid of confidence and fight.
Agreed Cook hasn't justified his place as an opener for a year let alone as captain. However that is symptomatic of the England team, there isn't enough pressure to perform for some players. You know that if Cook, KP, Bell, Anderson and previously Swann didn't perform they wouldn't be dropped. That can't be allowed everyone should know they need to perform to get in the side. We need to play a much more positive style of cricket and we need to realise that the England team is too insular and doesn't listen to the correct advice enough. Also if Cook is going to be captain he needs to get control of the team and stamp his authority.
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Oh and we've got to stop producing pitches in England that massively favour our players, it's not actually helping the development of our side. We need to learn how to play on all types of pitches and not having everything in England suited towards our style. If you do that it gives you a false impression of the strength of the side, and then you get what's happened on this tour.
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I agree Paul about playing on pitches that don't massively suit our players natural techniques, but at the same time we don't suddenly want to produce dust bowls against India or Pakistan. Or fast and bouncy ones against SA
I think the ball is the biggest thing going for our seamers in this country. The duke generally swings a lot more and the seam stays more pronounced. I think the duke should be the standard ball across all nations. ICC would never let that happen though.
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I agree Paul about playing on pitches that don't massively suit our players natural techniques, but at the same time we don't suddenly want to produce dust bowls against India or Pakistan. Or fast and bouncy ones against SA
I think the ball is the biggest thing going for our seamers in this country. The duke generally swings a lot more and the seam stays more pronounced. I think the duke should be the standard ball across all nations. ICC would never let that happen though.
I'm not saying create pitches that count against us, just make decent pitches like they have in Australia. Those pitches have taken some spin, been good for seamers and also been good to bat on. If England had shown anything those would have been great Test wickets.
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I was interested in vaughans comments on kp- he said either bring him into the inner circle as vice captain or ditch him altogether - he seems to feel kp is something of an outcast and they need to make a decision one way or another on him.
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I was interested in vaughans comments on kp- he said either bring him into the inner circle as vice captain or ditch him altogether - he seems to feel kp is something of an outcast and they need to make a decision one way or another on him.
I heard that to and his point is that he is always fielding @ deep mid off/on or 3rd Man/Fine leg and never gives Cook advice/support on fields and or bowling changes
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I agree Paul about playing on pitches that don't massively suit our players natural techniques, but at the same time we don't suddenly want to produce dust bowls against India or Pakistan. Or fast and bouncy ones against SA
I think the ball is the biggest thing going for our seamers in this country. The duke generally swings a lot more and the seam stays more pronounced. I think the duke should be the standard ball across all nations. ICC would never let that happen though.
I'm not saying create pitches that count against us, just make decent pitches like they have in Australia. Those pitches have taken some spin, been good for seamers and also been good to bat on. If England had shown anything those would have been great Test wickets.
I take your point, but i've always thought part of the charm in test cricket is the differences in conditions in different countries. It's similar to tennis with it's surfaces. You have to improve and be able to adapt your game.
In fairness to this England side (they don't really deserve any fairness to be honest), up until this summer, they were winning in tough foreign conditions regularly.
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I was interested in vaughans comments on kp- he said either bring him into the inner circle as vice captain or ditch him altogether - he seems to feel kp is something of an outcast and they need to make a decision one way or another on him.
I heard that to and his point is that he is always fielding @ deep mid off/on or 3rd Man/Fine leg and never gives Cook advice/support on fields and or bowling changes
Called him a maverick - maybe not as integrated as we are led to believe?
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I was interested in vaughans comments on kp- he said either bring him into the inner circle as vice captain or ditch him altogether - he seems to feel kp is something of an outcast and they need to make a decision one way or another on him.
I heard that to and his point is that he is always fielding @ deep mid off/on or 3rd Man/Fine leg and never gives Cook advice/support on fields and or bowling changes
Called him a maverick - maybe not as integrated as we are led to believe?
There's no way that a number of the senior players were happy when he came back after the SA controversy.
I think it's pretty well known for example that Anderson and Swann cannot stand him. That being said though, team mates don't necessarily have to be the best of friends. Warne and Gilchrist had a deep mutual hatred but formed one of the best bowler/keeper combos in history.
That's the difference though. Warne and Gilchrist CONSISTENTLY performed, whereas KP has been woefully inconsistent for a decent amount of time.
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Looks like Montey might have played his last game for England the dirty scamp.
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Looks like Montey might have played his last game for England the dirty scamp.
It's his only hope of bowling a maiden over :)
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I was interested in vaughans comments on kp- he said either bring him into the inner circle as vice captain or ditch him altogether - he seems to feel kp is something of an outcast and they need to make a decision one way or another on him.
I heard that to and his point is that he is always fielding @ deep mid off/on or 3rd Man/Fine leg and never gives Cook advice/support on fields and or bowling changes
Called him a maverick - maybe not as integrated as we are led to believe?
There's no way that a number of the senior players were happy when he came back after the SA controversy.
I think it's pretty well known for example that Anderson and Swann cannot stand him. That being said though, team mates don't necessarily have to be the best of friends. Warne and Gilchrist had a deep mutual hatred but formed one of the best bowler/keeper combos in history.
That's the difference though. Warne and Gilchrist CONSISTENTLY performed, whereas KP has been woefully inconsistent for a decent amount of time.
He was also our top scoring batsman on this tour and is what the 6th highest run scorer ever for England?
He's not the problem and never really has been, but he's an easy target.
If you want examples of players not liking each other Clarke and Watson in the current Australia side is the obvious choice, it's been well known for years that they hate each other.
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I was interested in vaughans comments on kp- he said either bring him into the inner circle as vice captain or ditch him altogether - he seems to feel kp is something of an outcast and they need to make a decision one way or another on him.
I heard that to and his point is that he is always fielding @ deep mid off/on or 3rd Man/Fine leg and never gives Cook advice/support on fields and or bowling changes
Called him a maverick - maybe not as integrated as we are led to believe?
There's no way that a number of the senior players were happy when he came back after the SA controversy.
I think it's pretty well known for example that Anderson and Swann cannot stand him. That being said though, team mates don't necessarily have to be the best of friends. Warne and Gilchrist had a deep mutual hatred but formed one of the best bowler/keeper combos in history.
That's the difference though. Warne and Gilchrist CONSISTENTLY performed, whereas KP has been woefully inconsistent for a decent amount of time.
He was also our top scoring batsman on this tour and is what the 6th highest run scorer ever for England?
He's not the problem and never really has been, but he's an easy target.
If you want examples of players not liking each other Clarke and Watson in the current Australia side is the obvious choice, it's been well known for years that they hate each other.
In fairness being top batsman from this current tour is nothing to brag about!
He is our best player, unquestionably, but i'd guess his average has dipped quite a bit over the last few years. I seem to remember it being around 52/53 now he's around 46/47. That's still good, but I'm a firm believer that with the natural talent he has he should be doing better than he has overall for the last 3-4 years.
I specifically used the Warne/Gilchrist example because its easier for players to tolerate a teammate they hate if they are putting in mesmeric performances on a regular basis. Pietersen hasn't been doing that for some time, so it would be no surprise if he was being ostracised to the extent where it was affecting team morale and unity.
Pietersen doesn't help himself at all. Him saying he was "as good as gold" and "playing as well as ever" were laughable comments when he kept falling into the traps being set for him.
I agree that he gets more stick than he really deserves, but he purposely portrays himself a certain way, and is more than willing to accept the over the top adulation for the (now) occasional good performance.
Besides, KP is hardly the first example of a sports team's most extravagant character receiving the most attention.
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I say all that, whilst believing that Cook, Prior, Anderson, Swann, Panesar, Bell to name a few have shamed themselves more than Pietersen this tour.
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I wouldn't say he's never been the problem either - look at the way he belittled Strauss and was forced to apologise - vaughan has captained him and seems to feel there may still be a problem - i like kp and he can turn a game in a session but I daresay he can rub people up the wrong way as also could swann.
Goughie didnt chin him for no reason in the toilet .
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Looks like Montey might have played his last game for England the dirty scamp.
It's his only hope of bowling a maiden over :)
What has he been up to now?
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I have loved some of KP's innings but the way he has given his wicket away and exposed the middle order this tour has been very poor and we need to build a new team now and I dont think he wants to or will be around to play test cricket in the next 3/4 years
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Other than Stokes and Broad to a lesser extent, none of the players did themselves justice, to say the least. It was embarrassing to watch and think Vaughan is right about that. Actually agree with spangley that Pietersen may not be around much longer, would not surprise me if he quits international cricket in the next few weeks. Not so sure it was him exposing the middle order though, the top three batsmen before him were doing that on a more frequent basis. Some players showed a lack of fight and when the going got tough, they went into their shells. There does seem to be a clique and Pietersen is out of that. By the way, what did Flowers say about Finn?
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I think Broad can be reasonably satisfied with his personal form, although he could have bowled better at the lower order at times.
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Even though these marks are low, I still can't help but feel they are extremely generous to a number of players.
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/jan/05/ashes-england-player-ratings
For instance, how does a captain, who has barely scored a run and was powerless from preventing his opponents wriggling free from precarious 1st innings batting situations in pretty much all 5 tests get a mark as high as 4/10????
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Thanks eastie and Oz for your generous words. I have no doubt that England will re-group and be back at it before too long
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Ah well, it's gone now and although there needs to be a thorough inquest into what wrong, it is time to try and recover some pride in the limited over games. I can't understand why Cook has been kept on for the ODIs, as he's totally out of form and it would have been an opportunity to look at someone else captaining the side. Also, can't quite understand why Pietersen hasn't been included.
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Thanks eastie and Oz for your generous words. I have no doubt that England will re-group and be back at it before too long
I think it may be a while. The younger players coming through don't seem to have the talent and potential levels of the senior players (in their peaks) they will be replacing. I think it could be at least a couple of years of England being around the 4th-6th best test side.
As for your guys, it should be interesting to see how you get on in SA. If you can keep Johnson and Harris fit and at the same levels of form then they'll cause the SA line up some problems, but will undoubtably encounter far higher levels of resistance. I'd still worry about your batting. In every test your top order has struggled a bit in the first innings only to be rescued by Haddin and the lower order.
It's hard to see Haddin and the tail being able to do that against Steyn, Morkel and Philander, so it's imperative that your top 6 batsmen score more heavily in the first innings.
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Thanks eastie and Oz for your generous words. I have no doubt that England will re-group and be back at it before too long
I think it may be a while. The younger players coming through don't seem to have the talent and potential levels of the senior players (in their peaks) they will be replacing. I think it could be at least a couple of years of England being around the 4th-6th best test side.
As for your guys, it should be interesting to see how you get on in SA. If you can keep Johnson and Harris fit and at the same levels of form then they'll cause the SA line up some problems, but will undoubtably encounter far higher levels of resistance. I'd still worry about your batting. In every test your top order has struggled a bit in the first innings only to be rescued by Haddin and the lower order.
It's hard to see Haddin and the tail being able to do that against Steyn, Morkel and Philander, so it's imperative that your top 6 batsmen score more heavily in the first innings.
Yep, I think you're spot on there mate
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Looks like Montey might have played his last game for England the dirty scamp.
It's his only hope of bowling a maiden over :)
What has he been up to now?
Trying to entice a girl online to his hotel room in Melbourne 4 hours after the test defeat .
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One thing England should do is allow people to play a lot more first class cricket rather than carrying drinks, Bairstow and Finn have both been damaged by this. If they're not playing get them back to their counties so they can learn from playing.
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One thing England should do is allow people to play a lot more first class cricket rather than carrying drinks, Bairstow and Finn have both been damaged by this. If they're not playing get them back to their counties so they can learn from playing.
Bairstow wasn't allowed to play for Yorkshire for the first two months of last season, no wonder he's rusty. Surely time out in the middle, playing competitive cricket is better than fitness work and endless hours in the nets?
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You'd have thought so yes, and clearly in Bairstow and Finn's case it has done them some damage. You need time in the middle as a bowler or batsmen and it's something England need to address.
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You'd have thought so yes, and clearly in Bairstow and Finn's case it has done them some damage. You need time in the middle as a bowler or batsmen and it's something England need to address.
It's all about their age for me. If you take a guy who's 21-22 on tour he has to play, otherwise leave him where is and let him continue his development. If you want someone as cover/drinks carrier pick a guy in his late 20s who's learned what he can from the county circuit. Carberry and Rankin fit the bill perfectly for this and I'd be happy for both to be retained for the tours next winter in those first replacement roles.
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Telegraph reckons Flower and KP's relationship has completely broken down.
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There is clearly something very wrong in the England set up, all these stories coming out and clearly there's a look of trust from Cook towards some players.
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The story broke in the Guardian. Mike Selvey is a cricket correspondent that I like and respect. I see no reason to doubt his sources.
On one hand you have KP who probably knows his days are numbered making all of the right noises about wanting to be part of a side that regains the Ashes in 2015. He wants to milk the IPL riches and his central contract prevents him from doing so.
On the other you have the coach and a relatively new captain faced with a player who reportedly has a divisive effect in the dressing room. Add to the fact that there is a new ECB leadership team and Flower will want to show his credentials and retain his position in the dressing room.
KP has never been universally liked by his team mates and English cricket in general. I think that he has been badly managed by the England set up. He is a class act but was never amongst the world's top batsmen like a Sachin or a Ponting. He should now bow out and take the IPL riches.
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You forgot to to say that he is by far and away the best English batsman going.
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Also listen to any new young players who come into the England set up, it's KP who goes out of his way to help them. He was also in the nets helping the young tail enders during the Ashes. KP gets painted in a bad light, but I think he just doesn't fit in with the senior player clique. That clique is clearly causing a problem and would explain how players come into the team and appear not to be trusted.
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Seems virtually every paper is reporting this story - having seen Flowers denial its interesting that he never mentions kp and just says no decisions have been taken yet about any individuals - I think kp would like to carry on at test level but in all honesty I feel this may be end for his England career - regarding cook , he needs to be far more assertive as a captain .
Flower says its time for a new start and new faces - I think kp will be edged out and we will look to the future with a very different side come the summer - it will be interesting but not easy and I would hope that the new players have developed in time for the visit of the Aussies in 2015 .
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I think the "it could get worse before it gets better" style press conferences that are going around are preparing us for KP's departure. As that's what happens when you ditch a top player and talisman.
KP saying he wants to stay is his way of appeasing anyone who says he didn't want to stay on - he knows it's out of his ands anyway so why do a Swanny and look weak.
I think we might be in for a long, hard few years ahead of us tbh.
None of the young players mentioned excite me at all!
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Jordan, Overton, Mills, Robson, Lees, Borthwick, Buttler, Foakes are all good prospects and there'll be plenty more around.
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There's a general perception around KP that I don't think is true and he seems to suffer from it. We need to look more at how the dressing room's being managed, I don't think he should go but Flower is getting off very lightly from this. He said maybe he saw it coming, then why didn't he do something about it?
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There's a general perception around KP that I don't think is true and he seems to suffer from it. We need to look more at how the dressing room's being managed, I don't think he should go but Flower is getting off very lightly from this. He said maybe he saw it coming, then why didn't he do something about it?
Flower and kp have had an uneasy truce since the captaincy debacle which brought about peter moores exit - if Flower feels the way forward is without kp for the sake of team harmony then he must backed .
Kp can go onto play IPL cricket and will still have his reputation intact - I would like to see kp in ashes tests again but I can't see it happening in all honesty.
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I disagree, there are other perfectly good coaches out there, and maybe ones who didn't feel getting to no. 1 in the rankings was 'job done', and maybe ones who haven't been floating their possibly leaving the role for the last few months - but there's only one Kevin Pietersen, and for all his faults our batting is just too flimsy to deselect him for the sake of a coach.
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I disagree, there are other perfectly good coaches out there, and maybe ones who didn't feel getting to no. 1 in the rankings was 'job done', and maybe ones who haven't been floating their possibly leaving the role for the last few months - but there's only one Kevin Pietersen, and for all his faults our batting is just too flimsy to deselect him for the sake of a coach.
He is not bigger than the team though is he? The team/squad as a whole must come first.
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Neither of them are. The coach is not the team, the star batsman is not the team. You have to ask the pragmatic question: which one of these is more crucial, which one would be harder to replace? Our batting line up is so shot at the moment, and excommunicating the one player of inspiration available to us for the sake of a coach, who has himself displayed an undesirable degree of inconstancy, does not strike me as the most pragmatic thing to do.
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For me the coach is more important - it's ok saying kp is the star batsman but how many times has he really delivered on the big stage in recent months ?
Yes he can change a match in a session on his day but his day is very rare in recent times - the team must come first , kp has history for problems in the dressing room and if there are still doubts regarding him then best to call it a day .
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Has to be said that Flower's recent record isn't that stunning either. This isn't football - in cricket, the coach is a tone-setter but must work with the best team available, and mustn't ever 'stamp his authority' or stuff like that. This is still a captains' sport and a players' sport. KP is still a gloriously talented batsman with plenty to offer, and to throw that away for a coach who might not be around for much longer anyway would be looked at as a historical mistake.
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Jordan, Overton, Mills, Robson, Lees, Borthwick, Buttler, Foakes are all good prospects and there'll be plenty more around.
From the little I've seen of him Jordan would be very near the top of that list for me, he was up around 89-90 in the ODI in the summer which is a nice step up from the low -mid 80s set of bowlers we've got. I think we need to find some to scare people with raw pace and he's the best option right now.
I'm convinced Buttler will be behind the sticks for the summer.
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This series was terrible but KP was still our top run scorer and one of the few up knuckle down at Melbourne. Also there's no talk of KP issuing ultimatums. If this is true it should only reflect badly on Flower as no coach should be issuing ultimatums of this nature.
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This series was terrible but KP was still our top run scorer and one of the few up knuckle down at Melbourne. Also there's no talk of KP issuing ultimatums. If this is true it should only reflect badly on Flower as no coach should be issuing ultimatums of this nature.
I agree with this.
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Jordan, Overton, Mills, Robson, Lees, Borthwick, Buttler, Foakes are all good prospects and there'll be plenty more around.
From the little I've seen of him Jordan would be very near the top of that list for me, he was up around 89-90 in the ODI in the summer which is a nice step up from the low -mid 80s set of bowlers we've got. I think we need to find some to scare people with raw pace and he's the best option right now.
I'm convinced Buttler will be behind the sticks for the summer.
Jordan and Overton are quick and look very promising, Mills will be very quick as well. If Prior regains form he'll be the wicketkeeper in the summer, because he's definitely one who is a team man.
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I think KP's days are numbered. He hasn't played a match-changing innings for a while; his knee problems are not going away and he will be lured by IPL riches.
Maybe Flower should take his fair share of the blame, but I'd have though that Flower has more allies in "Team England" than KP and will ride of the storm of this Ashes debacle at KP's expense.
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This series was terrible but KP was still our top run scorer and one of the few up knuckle down at Melbourne. Also there's no talk of KP issuing ultimatums. If this is true it should only reflect badly on Flower as no coach should be issuing ultimatums of this nature.
He averaged 29 - hardly inspiring, I agree he has been our best batsmen but IF there is a problem in the dressing room then Flower must be backed .
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I don't think having 'allies in Team England' is a particularly great thing and might be part of the reason for our problems. The team should be a team as a whole, not various different groups of 'allies'.
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I don't think having 'allies in Team England' is a particularly great thing and might be part of the reason for our problems. The team should be a team as a whole, not various different groups of 'allies'.
But that implies that they all get on with each which clearly they don't.
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The key thing is that, at times, they've clearly let those divisions affect the team, largely by ostracising KP, that lack of professionalism worries me.
He should've been the talent that we built the side around around for the 7-8 years but instead he's constantly painted as a bit of a villain which to me has always had a hint of jealousy about it.
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The subject of KP quite simply divides opinion - only on SSN today you have Willis who is saying get rid immediately and in the opposite corner you have Mark Butcher, talking in regard to KP's influence at Surrey being a great positive particularly in terms of talking / coaching the younger players. One of the younger England players was saying exactly the same thing. So maybe his influence in the dressing room is divisive in terms of the younger players respect / idolise and the older ones in particular Anderson / Swann clique quite simply don't.
I look forward to reading the Swann, Flower & KP autobiographies - Swann's i daresay won't be too long in coming out!!!
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When all this has been sorted we need to see cook asserting himself a bit more too - as a captain he needs to offer strong leadership into this new era for english cricket.
I expect there will be beatings along the way but hopefully we will rebuild around the likes of cook, bell, root, stokes, broad and be in a better state for the next ashes battle.
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The key thing is that, at times, they've clearly let those divisions affect the team, largely by ostracising KP, that lack of professionalism worries me.
He should've been the talent that we built the side around around for the 7-8 years but instead he's constantly painted as a bit of a villain which to me has always had a hint of jealousy about it.
Precisely!
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When all this has been sorted we need to see cook asserting himself a bit more too - as a captain he needs to offer strong leadership into this new era for english cricket.
I expect there will be beatings along the way but hopefully we will rebuild around the likes of cook, bell, root, stokes, broad and be in a better state for the next ashes battle.
Still not sure he is the man for the job really. He seems very conservative and runs out of ideas very quickly when the team are under pressure.
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I think Flower should go and I would suggest go as Captain to, but I a damned if I can think of anybody capable of replacing him.
The infuriating way England are so naval gazing in their approach baffles me.
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I think Flower should go and I would suggest go as Captain to, but I a damned if I can think of anybody capable of replacing him.
The infuriating way England are so naval gazing in their approach baffles me.
I said this a while back, I think we need 1 of Cook or Flower to go so we can get some fresh impetus and there isn't a replacement for Cook at the minute (Broad is the only option and I hate bowlers as captain).
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Why in general, wouldn't a bowler make a good Captain?
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Why in general, wouldn't a bowler make a good Captain?
Often what happens is bowlers either bowl themselves too much or too little. Also, it can be a distraction from that tunnel vision which is quite good for a bowler to have to keep thinking about the general situation of the fielding.
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I think Flower should go and I would suggest go as Captain to, but I a damned if I can think of anybody capable of replacing him.
The infuriating way England are so naval gazing in their approach baffles me.
Flower has been at the helm of England's best team for decades - 3 ashes wins and taken us to world number one - give him a chance to rebuild the England side - he still seems to have the hunger for the job and regards cook - one series defeat in 6 is hardly a reason to axe him - they will both be hurting and will have learnt a lot in this tour - give them at least the summer before calling for their heads .
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I am very biased because he's a Bear and fellow Villa fan but Ian Bell may be worth consideration.
He lead the Bears in the CB40 final in 2010 against Somerset. He outfoxed Trescothick in the field and then played a captain's innings to win the match. His field placings were imaginative and bowling changes measured and perfectly timed. I've always rated Tresco as a county captain but Bell ran rings around him in all areas that day.
He's never been considered as captaincy material before and you can't select a test captain based upon one game, but Cook and Vaughan had no captaincy experience when they were appointed and they did OK to a point.
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I think Flower should go and I would suggest go as Captain to, but I a damned if I can think of anybody capable of replacing him.
The infuriating way England are so naval gazing in their approach baffles me.
Flower has been at the helm of England's best team for decades - 3 ashes wins and taken us to world number one - give him a chance to rebuild the England side - he still seems to have the hunger for the job and regards cook - one series defeat in 6 is hardly a reason to axe him - they will both be hurting and will have learnt a lot in this tour - give them at least the summer before calling for their heads .
The thing is though, if Flower and Cook were to both stay on, then regardless of how successful their methods have been in the past, they now both need to be willing to change their outlook quite drastically. If they realise, and are willing to do this then yes, stay on. If not, they have to go.
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I think Flower should go and I would suggest go as Captain to, but I a damned if I can think of anybody capable of replacing him.
The infuriating way England are so naval gazing in their approach baffles me.
Flower has been at the helm of England's best team for decades - 3 ashes wins and taken us to world number one - give him a chance to rebuild the England side - he still seems to have the hunger for the job and regards cook - one series defeat in 6 is hardly a reason to axe him - they will both be hurting and will have learnt a lot in this tour - give them at least the summer before calling for their heads .
The thing is though, if Flower and Cook were to both stay on, then regardless of how successful their methods have been in the past, they now both need to be willing to change their outlook quite drastically. If they realise, and are willing to do this then yes, stay on. If not, they have to go.
I believe they realise they must change and adapt - I would give them the chance to do so .
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They deserve the chance, but it's got to become apparent pretty quickly that their philosophy has changed.
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They deserve the chance, but it's got to become apparent pretty quickly that their philosophy has changed.
I think they realise that - however i don't think we will see kp play test cricket again if Flower stays .
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Why in general, wouldn't a bowler make a good Captain?
Often what happens is bowlers either bowl themselves too much or too little. Also, it can be a distraction from that tunnel vision which is quite good for a bowler to have to keep thinking about the general situation of the fielding.
Also sometimes a captain needs to tell the bowler that what he's doing isn't working, Cook's reluctance to do exactly that is the biggest criticism I've heard of him.
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Interesting piece in the telegraph by paul Hayward.
The post-mortem on England’s Ashes debacle cannot be a panto of news management, score-settling and self-preservation by whispers. This ravaged camp should know that a case can be made for purging Kevin Pietersen only if there is hard evidence against him, and Andy Flower’s reported unwillingness to work with him again is not just based on personal antipathy.
From this distance a kind of institutionalised dishonesty has taken hold of English cricket: players thinking they are better than they are, feeding off old glories and believing they can escape the ignominy of a 5-0 defeat with off-the-record briefings.
Already there is the sense that some inside the England camp are happy to use Pietersen as a lightning rod for the public’s anger. People who were previously disdainful of the media now seem happy to chirp away with often unattributable comments on what went wrong.
Paul Downton, the new England and Wales Cricket Board managing director, was probably not expecting this deluge of ill feeling in his first few weeks in the job. In his position, you might be thinking nobody in this England set-up has a right to shout the odds about what should happen next. Not Pietersen, and not Flower and his coaching staff, who allowed complacency to erode the good work of the previous four years.
Flower in particular had become the invisible man of English cricket.
Insulated by success, he seemed to regard normal discourse with press and public as beneath him. The England team cavorted behind a wall of paranoia and self-regard. They behaved like untouchables. Nothing new in that. But rarely do we see a coach who has been trounced 5-0 try to dictate the terms by which he might stay in the job.
Flower was quiet for much of this Ashes series. Then he burst into print with a declaration about what an “exciting challenge” it would be to put things right. Then, according to many accounts, he made Pietersen the issue on which he would stand or fall.
With respect – and Flower deserves that, at the very least — he is in no state to be telling Downton what to think about the playing or coaching staff. The new man is within his rights to tell everyone to pipe down and answer the questions that must now be laid before a bedraggled team. He is in charge, not Flower or the PR machine Pietersen is so adept at mobilising in times of need.
These are unusual circumstances for sure. Pietersen, 33, is England’s best player and its marquee attraction. Non-aficionados will turn on the television to watch him at the crease. His batting is theatre, a performance. Even with 294 runs at a rate of 29.40 he was England’s top scorer on a lamentable tour. By his own standards he was a flop, an easy victim for Australia’s bowlers, who exploited his ego and his impatience.
In that sense he fell furthest of England’s proven match-winners. Yet, without proof of bad behaviour, all the ECB would have to go on would be a generalised dislike. Old transgressions are irrelevant if there has been no new breaking of the rules.
If a choice is obligatory, many disgruntled fans will say: a plague on both their houses, both should go. But Pietersen’s match-changing capabilities continue to cast a spell on his audience, especially now that Alastair Cook’s team have disintegrated. Would expelling the crowd-pleaser be offset by a rise in squad harmony? This is the wrong way to start the question, because every established player must face an inquest; not just Pietersen, who has a long history of fallouts.
There will be those inside the camp who feel he should never have been recalled in the first place, following Cook’s elevation to the captaincy, and now want to correct that error by sending him back to the wilderness (or the Indian Premier League).
Certainly it takes the breath away to imagine that KP may effectively prevail over two England coaches (Peter Moores and Flower) as well as Andrew Strauss, who was captain when Pietersen sent his provocative texts to South African players.
“It’s tough being me in this dressing room,” Pietersen once said, and there are no prizes for spotting that it is tough having him in the locker room as well.
But Downton needs to know the specific allegations against him on this tour. Did he contravene team regulations? Was he disobedient and detached? If so a case can be made for kicking him to the kerb. If not, Flower and the other players are going to have to answer for their own inadequacies without making Pietersen the scapegoat: a role he clearly feels pre-doomed to fill.
After a disastrous 2011 World Cup campaign England’s rugby players took part in an equally calamitous inquest in which they were allowed to disparage the coaching staff anonymously. The report was leaked to the press and exposed the squad to further ridicule. Along with some constructive suggestions came a catalogue of bleating and blame-shifting.
This post-mortem requires some order and decorum.
The recriminations, though, have already started. Survival strategies have been laid out. The attempts at news management are as transparent as England’s fear of Mitchell Johnson. Downton now has a chance to be rational, objective and analytical. If Pietersen is a hindrance, he goes – however great his talent. But the others cannot use him as a cartoon villain to hide behind.
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I'd say that article is pretty fair.
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@Swannyg66: Thanks to those of you saying nice stuff about my career and invitations to you haters to a cyanide party. Free drinks and nibbles.
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After time to think about it, I think getting hammered could be much better for English cricket than if we'd been beaten in a close contest. If that had happened then we could have limped along in the same fashion. If this thrashing is used to reinvigorate our cricket and we start to play a more positive style of cricket it'll be worth it. However my fear is that at the moment KP will be made the scapegoat and they'll ignore all of the serious issues our team has.
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@Swannyg66: Thanks to those of you saying nice stuff about my career and invitations to you haters to a cyanide party. Free drinks and nibbles.
Great bowler though Swann has been, it isn't hard to see why he was ostracised from the England set up for such a long period of time.
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After time to think about it, I think getting hammered could be much better for English cricket than if we'd been beaten in a close contest. If that had happened then we could have limped along in the same fashion. If this thrashing is used to reinvigorate our cricket and we start to play a more positive style of cricket it'll be worth it. However my fear is that at the moment KP will be made the scapegoat and they'll ignore all of the serious issues our team has.
If they ditch KP for lack of form they should ditch Cook too. Only fair.
It would be brave of the selectors to omit both of them from the next test squad, but it's a move they should consider. Not as punishment, but just to illustrate that there are no sacred cows. Botham said a while back that it was too cozy. Club England: difficult to get into, almost impossible to get out of.
A place in the side should be on merit. On that basis, It's hard to argue that either Cook or KP should be in the side based on their form these past 12 months.
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After time to think about it, I think getting hammered could be much better for English cricket than if we'd been beaten in a close contest. If that had happened then we could have limped along in the same fashion. If this thrashing is used to reinvigorate our cricket and we start to play a more positive style of cricket it'll be worth it. However my fear is that at the moment KP will be made the scapegoat and they'll ignore all of the serious issues our team has.
If they ditch KP for lack of form they should ditch Cook too. Only fair.
It would be brave of the selectors to omit both of them from the next test squad, but it's a move they should consider. Not as punishment, but just to illustrate that there are no sacred cows. Botham said a while back that it was too cozy. Club England: difficult to get into, almost impossible to get out of.
A place in the side should be on merit. On that basis, It's hard to argue that either Cook or KP should be in the side based on their form these past 12 months.
Well true but others are in line before KP after this series, as poor as it was he was our top scorer. We need a much more positive and proactive style of cricket and yes players need to be secure in their positions but they need to perform as well. There's too much fear of failure running through that team and it's far too negative.
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After time to think about it, I think getting hammered could be much better for English cricket than if we'd been beaten in a close contest. If that had happened then we could have limped along in the same fashion. If this thrashing is used to reinvigorate our cricket and we start to play a more positive style of cricket it'll be worth it. However my fear is that at the moment KP will be made the scapegoat and they'll ignore all of the serious issues our team has.
If they ditch KP for lack of form they should ditch Cook too. Only fair.
It would be brave of the selectors to omit both of them from the next test squad, but it's a move they should consider. Not as punishment, but just to illustrate that there are no sacred cows. Botham said a while back that it was too cozy. Club England: difficult to get into, almost impossible to get out of.
A place in the side should be on merit. On that basis, It's hard to argue that either Cook or KP should be in the side based on their form these past 12 months.
KP will not be ditched on form , it's other issues , according to most cricket writers.
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Interesting in cook's press conference today he gave great backing to Andy Flower but when asked if kp was a dispruptive influence refused to answer the question saying he cannot comment due to confidentiality .
He then proceeded to bat away all kp questions looking decidedly uncomfortable about the whole thing .
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I think the biggest worry is the fact he said we've been a good force for the last 5 years and just had a poor three months. That's just not true we've been on the slide for a long time and if they genuinely don't realise that it's time for a new coach and captain.
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He is right. England have been top 1/2 of World Test teams in that period so there is no need to throw the baby out with the bath water however the bath requires scrubbing.
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I think the biggest worry is the fact he said we've been a good force for the last 5 years and just had a poor three months. That's just not true we've been on the slide for a long time and if they genuinely don't realise that it's time for a new coach and captain.
It's not time for a new coach and captain - both have proved they can do the job - they will learn lessons from this tour and deserve the chance to put things right.
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He is right. England have been top 1/2 of World Test teams in that period so there is no need to throw the baby out with the bath water however the bath requires scrubbing.
They were but they were on the slide, see very nearly getting beaten in NZ and the lack of ever scoring 400 in a first innings. Make no mistake the problems with this team go back much longer than 3 months, we won in the summer but we weren't actually very good. England have to change their approach to cricket, our conservative style has been found out now.
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He is right. England have been top 1/2 of World Test teams in that period so there is no need to throw the baby out with the bath water however the bath requires scrubbing.
They were but they were on the slide, see very nearly getting beaten in NZ and the lack of ever scoring 400 in a first innings. Make no mistake the problems with this team go back much longer than 3 months, we won in the summer but we weren't actually very good. England have to change their approach to cricket, our conservative style has been found out now.
Cook and Flower are aware of that and deserve the chance to put things right- give them at least the summer .
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Yeah that's fine as long as they are aware, what Cook said today suggests he wasn't.
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I think they deserve the chance, but Flower can't get rid of players just because he doesn't get on with them. Also it's got to become apparent pretty quickly that the style of the team is going to change.
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I see Morgan has come out in support of KP, which is ironic because I think if KP goes Morgan could be an option to come into the side. I thought in the end Morgan was made a scapegoat for our failure against Pakistan, I think if he can find form we need a game changer in the middle order and he's an option.
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I think that we have to keep our core together and start afresh.
Cook
Bell
Pietersen
Prior
Broad
Anderson
Then you work around it. Root and Stokes are definites.
Cook
Root
Bell
Pietersen
Stokes
Prior
Broad
Anderson
We're obviously one batsmen light so it's where do you go? Carberry, Compton, Bairstow, Ballance? It seems that the latter is the next cab off the rank so he'll get his chance.
Cook
Root
Bell
Pietersen
Ballance
Stokes
Prior
Broad
Anderson
A spinner is needed and there isclearly no-one who can replace Swann. I think the games up for Panesar and Kerrigan is nowhere near ready. Tredwell maybe? I don't think he's good enough for test cricket so with one trepid eye on the likes of Ian Salisbury andblooding a leg spinner because of Shane Warne, I think Borthwick will get a chance.
Andthe final bowling spot? Finn - maybe time for him now. Show that he canstart to deliver. Woakes, Bresnan, Rankin, Tremlett aren't test standard - although I've added Bresnan because I think his injury has done for him. Onions isn'tseemingly liked so despite his one 4 ball an over I'd give Finn a summer.
Cook
Root
Bell
Pietersen
Ballance
Stokes
Prior
Borthwick
Broad
Finn
Anderson
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Always been disappointed that Morgan couldn't transfer his best ODI form into his test outings. He's a fantastic player the way he can find gaps in the field.
Regarding how long these problems go back, I agree that it goes back further than 3 months and the batting was poor in the summer. However, saying we've been on the slide for 5 years is a bit of an exaggeration too. We've completed 3 back-to-back Ashes series, won away in India and got to number one in the world in that time. Strauss's retirement started the period of transition but it didn't particularly become evident until the last year or so.
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Always been disappointed that Morgan couldn't transfer his best ODI form into his test outings. He's a fantastic player the way he can find gaps in the field.
Regarding how long these problems go back, I agree that it goes back further than 3 months and the batting was poor in the summer. However, saying we've been on the slide for 5 years is a bit of an exaggeration too. We've completed 3 back-to-back Ashes series, won away in India and got to number one in the world in that time. Strauss's retirement started the period of transition but it didn't particularly become evident until the last year or so.
I don't think we've been on the slide for 5 years, it's about 18 months. I know we won in India but that was against a side in transition. It's ever since South Africa came to England we started to slip. I think Morgan deserves another shot at the middle order, we need dynamism in there especially if they get rid of KP which I don't think they should.
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I don't think Morgan will be the man to replace kp - he's ok as a one day player but failed too often in tests - I expect them to look at younger batsmen and it may take time to get things right.
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I don't think Morgan will be the man to replace kp - he's ok as a one day player but failed too often in tests - I expect them to look at younger batsmen and it may take time to get things right.
He's only 27, and his failings in Tests were predominantly in the UAE he deserves a chance.
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I would also like to see Buttler get a proper run as wicketkeeper.
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I hope I'm tempting fate now but I can see us going through this entire tour without beating Australia once - their ODI and T20 sides look way stronger than ours.
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And the colored clothing doesn't seem to make much difference.
Two dropped catches, mis fields a plenty, 50/50's going against us, referrals overturned, bowling way too shrt and Australia are 0/162.
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The body language, even amongst the new players looks shockingly hangdog. Ho hum.
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Good to see Cook and Root failing completely again. Morgan's innings backed up my belief he should have a shot at the test side though.
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Cook desperately needs a break from he game after the Test series. Unfortunately as the ODI skipper he's stuck there in a reaccurring nightmare.
I feel quite sorry for him tbh.
Also beginning to wonder whether Root really is what we thought he was.
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Jordan has bowled excellently and been very unlucky. He's another potential test player.
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Good to see Cook and Root failing completely again. Morgan's innings backed up my belief he should have a shot at the test side though.
Good to see cook and root failing again ? Amazing comment!!!!
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Good to see Cook and Root failing completely again. Morgan's innings backed up my belief he should have a shot at the test side though.
Good to see cook and root failing again ? Amazing comment!!!!
It was sarcasm, I don't actually want them to fail. It's frankly ridiculous that they're playing in this series.
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Good to see Cook and Root failing completely again. Morgan's innings backed up my belief he should have a shot at the test side though.
Good to see cook and root failing again ? Amazing comment!!!!
It was sarcasm, I don't actually want them to fail. It's frankly ridiculous that they're playing in this series.
I will be glad when the series is over - it's been one to forget !
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Cook needs a long rest should if come home with a bad back,even if he hasn't got one.
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Awful team selection today. Root's done nothing to be playing number 3. If he was going to play, he should have been used as the spinner and batting in the lower order. Too weak in the bowling department.
It's interesting to see the young players performing well. It really says a lot for the direction we need to take.
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The fielding shows how much is wrong in the England set up. Root is really beginning to worry me now.
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Again though, Root wouldn't have been expecting to go in so early, Cook needs to start doing his job as an opener, he's been woeful with the bat all tour (and was pretty average in the summer), if he wasn't the captain his spot would be under huge threat.
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Again though, Root wouldn't have been expecting to go in so early, Cook needs to start doing his job as an opener, he's been woeful with the bat all tour (and was pretty average in the summer), if he wasn't the captain his spot would be under huge threat.
I agree but at the same time Root's stock and trade is meant to be an opener and he doesn't look up to it at the moment. I really think Morgan could be a good option for the middle order in the Test team now that he appears to have found his form.
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Once again our timid tactics at the top of the order don't help either, through all forms of the game we have to learn to be a lot more proactive.
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I think Root has completely lost his confidence, we need to let him get a few county games at the start of the season to get himself into a bit of form, he seems to be scared to get out playing big shots and has just drawn himself into a dangerously defensive game.
What I find a bit strange is that we didn't rest Cook and let Carberry open, for me Cook's head has gone completely, he's a free wicket with the bat and looks lost as the captain. Rest him for Carberry and give the captaincy to Morgan. I know ODI and test cricket is a very different environment but form in 1 feeds into the other and this series is going to do nothing to help Cook sort out his form, in my opinion.
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The problem is we won't make the required changes. There was even talk in the commentary that we won't admit to our mistakes and the only way selections are changed is if there is a convenient injury.
Announcing that we're resting Broad for 2 games was like holding up a white flag too. We're not in a strong enough position to choose to rest key players and certainly not one's who have looked in form (certainly his bowling in Broad's case).
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I agree with both of you, Cook shouldn't be playing here at all and neither should Root. The scapegoating of KP suggests to me like they are ignoring the obvious problems we have and don't have the stomach to make the required changes. If Prior doesn't recapture his form I'd definitely like to see Buttler in the Test side. I think to add a bit of freshness I'd like to see Morgan, Robson, Buttler, Jordan and Overton all come into the Test reckoning. We need to get more positive cricketers into the squad, the group seems toxic at the moment.
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I agree with both of you, Cook shouldn't be playing here at all and neither should Root. The scapegoating of KP suggests to me like they are ignoring the obvious problems we have and don't have the stomach to make the required changes. If Prior doesn't recapture his form I'd definitely like to see Buttler in the Test side. I think to add a bit of freshness I'd like to see Morgan, Robson, Buttler, Jordan and Overton all come into the Test reckoning. We need to get more positive cricketers into the squad, the group seems toxic at the moment.
It's no good saying we don't have the stomach to make the required changes until the summer and we see what changes are made - I expect a very different England side this summer with a few changes teamwise and also in our approach - downton will see to that - Flower and cook will be well aware that things need to change .
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I think Root has completely lost his confidence, we need to let him get a few county games at the start of the season to get himself into a bit of form, he seems to be scared to get out playing big shots and has just drawn himself into a dangerously defensive game.
What I find a bit strange is that we didn't rest Cook and let Carberry open, for me Cook's head has gone completely, he's a free wicket with the bat and looks lost as the captain. Rest him for Carberry and give the captaincy to Morgan. I know ODI and test cricket is a very different environment but form in 1 feeds into the other and this series is going to do nothing to help Cook sort out his form, in my opinion.
Couldn't agree more. Cook should have been on the first plane home after the test series finished. He looks a beaten man at the moment both on and off the field. Carberry should have opened with Bell, or if they didn't fancy that then call up Hales or Lumb and give them a go. Why KP isn't there and batting number three is a complete mystery to me, as he has hardly warranted needing a rest. Why was Broad left out of the first game of a big ODI series when we desperately needed a win? Why didn't we play a recognised spinner? Why did Buttler come in as low down as 8?
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I agree with both of you, Cook shouldn't be playing here at all and neither should Root. The scapegoating of KP suggests to me like they are ignoring the obvious problems we have and don't have the stomach to make the required changes. If Prior doesn't recapture his form I'd definitely like to see Buttler in the Test side. I think to add a bit of freshness I'd like to see Morgan, Robson, Buttler, Jordan and Overton all come into the Test reckoning. We need to get more positive cricketers into the squad, the group seems toxic at the moment.
It's no good saying we don't have the stomach to make the required changes until the summer and we see what changes are made - I expect a very different England side this summer with a few changes teamwise and also in our approach - downton will see to that - Flower and cook will be well aware that things need to change .
Maybe not but the initial signs are not great.
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I see Cook and Root have both failed with the bat again in the warm up game. How they can think it's good for either the players or the team to carry on as is I don't know but we're in danger of ruining Root and Cook's reputation will be in tatters.
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I see Cook and Root have both failed with the bat again in the warm up game. How they can think it's good for either the players or the team to carry on as is I don't know but we're in danger of ruining Root and Cook's reputation will be in tatters.
The following team are playing today:
Alastair Cook (C)
Michael Carberry
Joe Root
Gary Ballance
Eoin Morgan
Jose Buttler (W)
Ravi Bopara
Tim Bresnan
James Tredwell
Chris Jordan
Boyd Rankin
Replace Cook and Root with Bell and KP and that batting line up looks OK for ODIs. I can't see why Cook and Root are still being picked as both are woefully out of form (I still don't think Cook should be involved in limited overs cricket at all). Add Stokes and Broad to the bowling department and that wouldn't be a bad side going forward to the World Cup next year.
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I think Cook and Root need to go now for the time being and clear their heads, they are not up to it.
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My bigger worry is that Cook and Root are players that we want to be able to call on going forward and both still have a big part to play for England but by keeping them in the team now we're doing them a lot more harm than good. I don't want them both dropped for good but I don't think they need to be rested and given some time at county level at the start of the summer before we get back into international season. Having an early summer series is part of the problem, our players just aren't getting enough time in the middle.
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My bigger worry is that Cook and Root are players that we want to be able to call on going forward and both still have a big part to play for England but by keeping them in the team now we're doing them a lot more harm than good. I don't want them both dropped for good but I don't think they need to be rested and given some time at county level at the start of the summer before we get back into international season. Having an early summer series is part of the problem, our players just aren't getting enough time in the middle.
I agree, hopefully this summer will be different as the first Test is in June so they should have plenty of opportunity to play county cricket. I really think they need time away from the game now though.
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Still have to be back with England in early May though.
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I see Finn has left the tour to 'work on technical aspects of his game', I hope that means he is just being given time to go away and forget cricket for a while. He is a classic case of too many adjustments to his technique and it's become a mess, he needs a break so he can come back fresh.
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What has gone so wrong?
Batting-crap
Bowlers- Finn has been reduced to throwing the ball in the nets as his action has completely gone.
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I think we've blindly going along for a long time not addressing a number of issues apparent in the team, because we were winning and Flower has indicated that. Now those issues have been highlighted by the hammering we've received, batting unit not performing, bowlers out of form, fielding not good enough.
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It feels rudderless.
A new broom to sweep clean, starting at the top.
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What has gone so wrong?
Batting-crap
Bowlers- Finn has been reduced to throwing the ball in the nets as his action has completely gone.
Heard Dean Wilson (Mirror cricket correspondent) on the radio earlier in the week saying that Finn had completely gone and was struggling to land the ball on the strip in the nets. Hopefully he can come back from this.
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My bigger worry is that Cook and Root are players that we want to be able to call on going forward and both still have a big part to play for England but by keeping them in the team now we're doing them a lot more harm than good. I don't want them both dropped for good but I don't think they need to be rested and given some time at county level at the start of the summer before we get back into international season. Having an early summer series is part of the problem, our players just aren't getting enough time in the middle.
Agree with all of that Paul. Cook and Root should be our opening partnership going forward so we need to manage them properly going forward.
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I feel sorry for Finn:
- Gets called up on the back of his natural pace and angle making him a dangerous young strike bowler with a slightly erratic line that will improve with experience.
- Gets his run up messed with in an attempt to make him stump-to-stump - starts hitting the wickets with his knee.
- Starts working on his run-up to go back to a normal angle but get forced to carry drinks for England and struggles to find a rhythm.
- Plays a few ODIs and looks well down on pace because of the constant fucking with his run up.
- Gets dragged down under when he's struggling so much that he's never getting a game.
- Leaves the tour early having been completely overlooked amid talk that his entire action has fallen apart.
Has a young bowler ever been screwed over so effectively? They're doing a similar trick with Bairstow with the bat, and I'm not convinced that they haven't been fucking with Root's technique as well, Root in particular looked a composed batsman looking to keep the scoreboard moving and use his pace between the wickets. Now he's scared to dab into the circle and take a single so he gets bogged down because he's not going to smack fours all the time. Bouncing him up and down the order has just made things worse.
Don't get me started on the decision to call Woakes and Kerrigan up, give them a game and then pack them off again, if you want a look at a couple of youngsters call them up for a series against someone other than Australia and give them more than 1 test to see how they settle.
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Anderson went through the same and he came out the other end ok.
Finn should go round Graham Smith's house and piss through his letterbox.
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Finn has been wrecked by England completely and hopefully time away from that set up will get him back to his best. I don't care if he's a bit expensive he's a strike bowler and England need to learn you don't have to mold every bowler into an economy bowler.
On a wider note England's treatment of players coming into the Test team on the whole has been horrible of late. Bairstow had lost his game by travelling around for a year playing hardly any cricket. Woakes and Kerrigan's confidence must have been shattered by their experience in the summer. Kerrigan in particular was handled appallingly by Cook. Taylor is another one who has been messed about. It really isn't very good at all and changes need to happen.
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That's my biggest problem with the Flower/Cook pairing, The senior players (other than KP) have been treated with kid gloves and given all the support you could ask for, the fringe players have pretty much all been shit on at various points. To me it feels a lot like MONs villa, once you made it into the 'elite' you were there for good and everyone else was just injury cover and scapegoats.
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I don't blame Cook for not bowling Kerrigan. The team were struggling and couldn't afford to give away cheap runs.
the selection was a touch left-field and Cook is not a selector; why would he bring on a bowler who looks like a pie-thrower? (c. R. Marsh).
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the problem though was to call him up, give him 8 overs and then drop him from both the squad and lions squad as well. That's just poor all round.
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the problem though was to call him up, give him 8 overs and then drop him from both the squad and lions squad as well. That's just poor all round.
Yep. It's the kind of treatment of players we used to see in the 90's -
* Pick a player who is doing well in county cricket
* Player doesn't do well in his first test match
* Oh he's rubbish, let's get him out of the team
* Repeat process
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I don't blame Cook for not bowling Kerrigan. The team were struggling and couldn't afford to give away cheap runs.
the selection was a touch left-field and Cook is not a selector; why would he bring on a bowler who looks like a pie-thrower? (c. R. Marsh).
His form in county cricket suggests he's not a pie thrower and to call him up give him 8 overs where he struggled and then not bowl him again is appalling captaincy and management. It's also worth noting that same Australian team has battered Swann out of the attack and did the same to Tredwell in the ODIs. So maybe it's not just about Kerrigan.
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I agree with Paul that it does seem there are about 6 or 7 players in the country that get all the support and back up they need and then everyone else is a bit on the outside, that situation must change and quickly. It's a worry about Finn as it sounds like he can't even let go of the ball anymore, he needs a month off to clear his head.
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Cook should not have had a voice in Kerrigan's selection.
You don't bowl someone if they're bowling rubbish -Vaughan never made that mistake, one reason he was one of the best captains we've had since Brearley.
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Cook should not have had a voice in Kerrigan's selection.
You don't bowl someone if they're bowling rubbish -Vaughan never made that mistake, one reason he was one of the best captains we've had since Brearley.
If you listen to Vaughan's view on what happened to Kerrigan you'd be surprised. He said it's fine taking him off, but not bringing him back for a chance to redeem himself is wrong.
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Fantastic innings by Morgan and he definitely should be in the Test reckoning for me, we need that some of impetus. I also really like Jordan as a bowler.
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Good start with the ball today, Warner, Finch and Clarke all gone cheaply. Jordan boeling with a bit of aggression and pace again, I'd be very tempted to have a look at him in the Sri Lanka Tests.
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Fantastic innings by Morgan and he definitely should be in the Test reckoning for me, we need that some of impetus. I also really like Jordan as a bowler.
I like Morgan, his unorthodox style makes him a joy to watch. I think he's been found wanting at test level which is a shame.
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That is one of the most disasterous defeats we've suffered on tour. To lose from the position we were in is absolutely shocking.
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That is one of the most disasterous defeats we've suffered on tour. To lose from the position we were in is absolutely shocking.
I can't believe that...they were nowhere to be seen with 5 or 6 overs to go - he decided to go after Stokes and smashed him everywhere.
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Well Bresnan bowled one of the poorest final overs I've seen if you consider his experience level.
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I would have thought this'll be 5-0 now as well, we won't get a better chance to win.
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I'm getting a bit bored of Cook repeating that the dressing room is a tough place to be.
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Looking at the bowling options left available to Cook I find it very odd he didn't bowl either Jordan or Rankin at the end. I appreciate Bresnan is experienced, but he didn't bowl particularly well today and I think we needed to bowl them out.
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That is a really hard one to take.
It kept me interested right up to the end and then BAM!.
And now the texts have started, wankers.
God I want to punch Michael Clarke.
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Looking at the bowling options left available to Cook I find it very odd he didn't bowl either Jordan or Rankin at the end. I appreciate Bresnan is experienced, but he didn't bowl particularly well today and I think we needed to bowl them out.
Had to go with Bres, slower balls and yorkers were the go, he just didn't bowl well enough. Also Stokes bowling right in the slot for Faulkner set it up for them.
I bet they're absolutely devastated to lose that.
God I want to punch Michael Clarke.
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Looking at the bowling options left available to Cook I find it very odd he didn't bowl either Jordan or Rankin at the end. I appreciate Bresnan is experienced, but he didn't bowl particularly well today and I think we needed to bowl them out.
He couldn't bowl Rankin at the end due to him being off field injured with 'Hamstring' trouble again!!
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Well Bresnan bowled one of the poorest final overs I've seen if you consider his experience level.
Not for the first time either .
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I haven't seen the last few overs so I'm making assumptions here but I guess we did the normal thing of bowling a 'good' line and length, trying to get the batsman driving, but with only 1 slip (if any). generally we make the same mistakes every time in this situation, if the batsmen are trying to score from everything you either bowl at their toes or their chin (depending on how they handle the bouncer), make them play uncomfortable shots, bowling a standard where it's going to pass the stumps 3-4 inches wide of off and about knee high is the worst place to bowl because they're going to swing hard at those, yes you'll get edges but unless you go crazy and have 3 slips in a lot of those edges are going to flash down to 3rd man anyway. Shift to a 6-3 legside field and bowl in line with the stumps (but not between shoulder and waist high), Mckay really isn't good enough to deserve any other treatment.
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Fantastic innings by Morgan and he definitely should be in the Test reckoning for me, we need that some of impetus. I also really like Jordan as a bowler.
I like Morgan, his unorthodox style makes him a joy to watch. I think he's been found wanting at test level which is a shame.
I'm not sure on that, he was going through a form slump when he started to struggle he's addressed those issues and deserves another shot.
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@BumbleCricket: Cook...28 year old chap who has done fantastically well...just had a reversal .....FFS ...leave him alone ...will be better for experience
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I agree. You don't become he youngest player to pass 8000 Test runs if your not a very strong minded individual.
Cook will be fine, he's just been pretty badly let down for a few of the seniors on this tour. Swann, Anderson, Pietersen, Prior and (it has to be said) Trott.
Last night still hurts though so Lord knows how he players feel. So glad today wasn't a work day.
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Bit harsh on Trott, Oz, the bloke is ill. Agree that the others haven't lived up to reputations but he can be given a pass under the circumstances.
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Well I think questions need to be asked about his being on he tour in the first place. He didn't last the 1st Test so it's not like he arrived fine and it progressively came through the tour.
He has my sympathies of course but either Trott, the management or both made a major mistake which buggered things up pretty much from day 2 of the series.
My guess is Trott gave them assurances he'd be able to deal with it, then went after the 1st Test. If he had been carrying a physical injury and then broke down they'd be serious questions asked, same should apply here.
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Well I think questions need to be asked about his being on he tour in the first place. He didn't last the 1st Test so it's not like he arrived fine and it progressively came through the tour.
He has my sympathies of course but either Trott, the management or both made a major mistake which buggered things up pretty much from day 2 of the series.
My guess is Trott gave them assurances he'd be able to deal with it, then went after the 1st Test. If he had been carrying a physical injury and then broke down they'd be serious questions asked, same should apply here.
Fair comment,
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Sounds like Cook is going to quit as one day captain
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If he is in the quitting mood than he should quit altogether. I don't understand why he feels he is not capable of captaining the one day team?
The better question he should ask himself is if he has the desire to succeed as an international class batsman.
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We need a more aggressive top order rather than this old tactic of starting slowly and just hoping we have some good hitters for the last 10 overs. The game's moved on and I don't know whether we could change our approach with Cook opening the batting.
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If he is in the quitting mood than he should quit altogether. I don't understand why he feels he is not capable of captaining the one day team?
The better question he should ask himself is if he has the desire to succeed as an international class batsman.
Well I'll answer that now, he already has done.
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If he is in the quitting mood than he should quit altogether. I don't understand why he feels he is not capable of captaining the one day team?
The better question he should ask himself is if he has the desire to succeed as an international class batsman.
Agree with you here!!! The youngest player to get to 8000 runs....he don't have to prove himself as a batsman....class is always there form unfortunately is not and that is what he is struggling with currently.
He will come through the runs blip - of that i have no doubt........captaincy????
Well I'll answer that now, he already has done.
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I agree with Bumble that Morgan should be the ODI captain and we get him into the Test side.
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We need a more aggressive top order rather than this old tactic of starting slowly and just hoping we have some good hitters for the last 10 overs. The game's moved on and I don't know whether we could change our approach with Cook opening the batting.
Yep. Bell, Carberry and Pietersen should have been the top three for this series, with maybe Lumb or Hales also given a chance at some point. We haven't had that part of the batting line up right for some time now.
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At least they are acknowledging that they have some fundamental problems that will change - I'm pleased about that.
We have the Big Bash on here right now and there are some good English players scoring runs, we just need to be prepared to give them a go, be aggressive and take it to the opposition a lot more than we do now.
Taking forward a more aggressive approach, I'm wondering whether you can have both Root and Cook in the top order so, regrettably, the one to go might be Cook. Unless Cook bats in the middle order.
Just look at Australia. They have those two dynamic batsmen at the top of the order (Finch and Warner), Watson at 3 and then Maxwell and Faulkner lower down. Complemented by Clarke, Baily and Haddin. That's a fantastic top 7 for ODI Cricket as the balance of the batting is excellent. We need to emulate this as best we can or we'll keep on losing future games against them. You've also got 3 of those that can bowl.
It's not a disgrace to lose to this lot looking at that side, plus the momentum they have from the Test Series. The best we could hope for is to maybe scramble a win and, most importantly, to learn from the whole experience. I think we're doing that.
Lumb
Bell
Stokes or Cook
Morgan (C)
Bairstow or Stokes (Stokes plays, just depends who for)
Bopara
Butler
Bresnan/Root (depends on the wicket)
Broad
Jordan
Tredwell
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I'm not a huge fan of one day cricket in the modern era so would be quite happy to see cook concentrate on just leading the test side.
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I think 1 day cricket is in a difficult place trying to find where it fits with T20 having taken it's usual spot. I still think it's a good format though as it has the potential to allow some element of tactical play which T20 often doesn't have. I think the gap between Tests and T20 is too big for ODIs to be ignored but English cricket needs to start to realise that the game has changed and 250 is no longer 'par'. clearly some wickets make a difference but 300 is largely a requirement to set a meaningful target now, which means you need to be willing to go at a bowler and bat him out of the attack. That's a skill we really need to learn for tests as well.
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If he is in the quitting mood than he should quit altogether. I don't understand why he feels he is not capable of captaining the one day team?
The better question he should ask himself is if he has the desire to succeed as an international class batsman.
Well I'll answer that now, he already has done.
Already is no good. No doubt he has very good stats but 10 innings v Australia and 246 runs is no longer international class. He is only 30 years old so he has to decide if he still fancies it at the top.
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Cook as an opening batsman has proven himself to be very high quality. Cook as opening batsman and captain has a very questionable record, with his form in 2013 being particularly dire. If he'd kept his scoring rate up after he was made captain he'd be well over 9000 runs now, rather than having just limped over 8000. In no way do I think Cook should be dropped but I do think he needs to learn how to balance his own game with the extra responsibility of being captain. It's not easy, as I've said before there are, comparatively, very few genuinely successful opening batsman captains in the history of the game, which suggests it's just as difficult for everyone else as Cook has found it.
That he was the only feasible choice and we still don't really have any alternative is the underlying problem, we need someone in the middle order to really stand up and make themselves counted. If Morgan can carry his form into Tests he has the attitude and skill to be a very good captain, and he has done well in the shorter formats when he's had the chance.
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One thing Morgan seems to have is bottle pretty good shout that Paul.
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I've said it before, but it is starting to get to a choice between two options: either Cook drops down the order or he gives up the captaincy, because he is looking increasingly like he can't combine opening and skippering.
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A top captain can be worth 20-30 runs himself in the field anyway if not more. So I'm of the mind set that if someone has very good captaincy credentials despite not being the number one option with the bat then you have to give him the chance anyway (Mike Brearley anyone?)
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At least they are acknowledging that they have some fundamental problems that will change - I'm pleased about that.
We have the Big Bash on here right now and there are some good English players scoring runs, we just need to be prepared to give them a go, be aggressive and take it to the opposition a lot more than we do now.
Taking forward a more aggressive approach, I'm wondering whether you can have both Root and Cook in the top order so, regrettably, the one to go might be Cook. Unless Cook bats in the middle order.
Just look at Australia. They have those two dynamic batsmen at the top of the order (Finch and Warner), Watson at 3 and then Maxwell and Faulkner lower down. Complemented by Clarke, Baily and Haddin. That's a fantastic top 7 for ODI Cricket as the balance of the batting is excellent. We need to emulate this as best we can or we'll keep on losing future games against them. You've also got 3 of those that can bowl.
It's not a disgrace to lose to this lot looking at that side, plus the momentum they have from the Test Series. The best we could hope for is to maybe scramble a win and, most importantly, to learn from the whole experience. I think we're doing that.
Lumb
Bell
Stokes or Cook
Morgan (C)
Bairstow or Stokes (Stokes plays, just depends who for)
Bopara
Butler
Bresnan/Root (depends on the wicket)
Broad
Jordan
Tredwell
I would want Butler a lot higher in the order. He's a quality player but seems to be under-rated for some reason.
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I think I'd include Hales as an opener in the ODI team.
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Swann will be working for Sky,I didn't smell that coming.
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I was thinking of an ODI side and came up with something like this -
Hales
Cook
KP
Bell
Morgan(c)
Stokes
Buttler
Broad
Jordan
Overton
Briggs
I think there's enough new blood in there, mixed with experience and also a combination of power players and steadier options.
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Looks about right to me, I'd be tempted to try to get Root and Ballance in though, more for international experience than anything else.
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Hales
Bell
KP
Ballance
Morgan(c)
Stokes
Buttler
Broad
Jordan
Overton
Briggs
This is my team Cook should concentrate on the Test Matches
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Hales
Bell
Stokes
Ballance
Morgan (c)
Buttler
Wright
Broad
Jordan
Overton
Briggs
Would be my current team but I don't follow any of the domestic Cricket so there could be others in there who could be worth playing.
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I was thinking maybe Root for Cook as it does give another bowling option and Ballance for KP if they're getting rid of him.
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With Root, I would just take him out of the firing line before he's ruined. Let him go and play some county games to rediscover his technique and form. We're not helping him and with figures like 3/22, he's not helping us either.
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With Root, I would just take him out of the firing line before he's ruined. Let him go and play some county games to rediscover his technique and form. We're not helping him and with figures like 3/22, he's not helping us either.
I was talking more long term, but yeah I agree at the moment.
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I also meant long term, it's absolutely correct that Root should be rested for the remainder of this tour and allowed some county games before the Sri Lankans arrive, I doubt there are many people who would think differently, this tour is just damaging him now and we need to start the recovery as soon as possible for him.
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Ok, that makes more sense now. I thought we were talking more short-term than that.
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I was thinking of an ODI side and came up with something like this -
Hales
Cook
KP
Bell
Morgan(c)
Stokes
Buttler
Broad
Jordan
Overton
Briggs
I think there's enough new blood in there, mixed with experience and also a combination of power players and steadier options.
Would agree with most of that, but not sure about that bowling attack. We've got a year to prepare for the World Cup and hopefully a few players will regain form and others make a claim in that time. At the moment I would probably go for:
Carberry (would also look at Hales)
Bell
KP
Ballance (Root if he comes back into form)
Morgan (C)
Buttler
Stokes
Broad
Jordan
Tredwell (hopefully another spinner will also make a claim)
Rankin (hopefully Finn will regai his form)
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We scored well today then. I won't be counting any chickens just yet though.
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Excellent from Buttler and Stokes again, and good to see several players make a contribution. However bowling was far too loose up front and we need to drag it back.
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Hmmm we need a breakthrough here.
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Stokes has done very well to get Bailey out.
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great knock by Buttler today but we need to get rid of Finch and try to bog them down a little, if we get them 160ish for 4 or so after 30 I'd be pretty confident.
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Finch is a problem, we need that kind of destructive power up the top of the order. I guess that's why we've moved Stokes up.
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Big wicket from Broad, but we need Finch out.
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Finch gone, that's a big wicket.
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Massive wicket from Bres, advantage England right now I'd say.
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Terrible over from Bresnan there, as experienced as he is to bowl 3 wides is not good enough.
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I have no confidence in our ability to win this one
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I'm getting concerned, because losing is a habit and they'll start to get edgy.
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I rated Stokes before this tour, but he has grown a lot he is a top quality player.
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I fancy us to win now, Stokes is a true all rounder.
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Couldn't POSSIBLY balls this up now.
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Eight-nil, and you fucked it up!
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Ah finally a win, on a serious note Stokes has been a real find this tour he's excellent. Buttler is looking more and more like a top quality player. Morgan should be pushing for a Test place now and Jordan looks good to me.
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Buttler is a quality player, 77 from 43 with the bat to put huge pressure on the Australian run rate and then 5 catches behind the stumps, that's as close to a perfect day as he'll have ever imagined. I imagine Stokes will get the MotM award and he'll have earned it but to me Buttler is the one who won us this game with his batting.
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Wombat where are you- wombat where are you :):):)
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you not singing anymore , your not well anyway yay
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Ta Da!
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Michael Clarke, willy wombat, kylie Minogue , Rolf Harris, skippy, dame Edna - your boys took a beating tonight .....
Engerland engerand engerland .........
Jingle bells jingle bells..........
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Buttler looks like the real deal.
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A win, a win, good christ a win!
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What's good about this one day series is that it's highlighted some players who could be very useful in Tests - Ballance, Buttler, Morgan and Jordan have all staked a claim. That's on top of Cook, Bell, Stokes, Broad who are already there.
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What's good about this one day series is that it's highlighted some players who could be very useful in Tests - Ballance, Buttler, Morgan and Jordan have all staked a claim. That's on top of Cook, Bell, Stokes, Broad who are already there.
I agree, especially Buttler I think, Prior's loss of form left a big hole in our lower order.
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What's good about this one day series is that it's highlighted some players who could be very useful in Tests - Ballance, Buttler, Morgan and Jordan have all staked a claim. That's on top of Cook, Bell, Stokes, Broad who are already there.
I agree, especially Buttler I think, Prior's loss of form left a big hole in our lower order.
Will be an interesting battle between buttler and prior for the gloves this summer - can't see anyone else in contention for the role.
The huge plus from the series is stokes - a real prospect for the future - I'm looking forward to the visit of India and seeing some of these younger lads get a chance as well as the return to form of our better players , time to dust ourselves down regroup and go again to coin a phrase.
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Buttler and Jordan are the 2 for me, Jordan just looks to have a bit of extra pace that we've been missing for a few years and Buttler is a massive talent, he's very strong but he has much better technique than he's given credit for as well, and he's a much better keeper than Bairstow.
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Buttler competing with Prior in form would be great for us. Jordan impresses me too, but he needs to sustain his pace throughout the day. Overton hasn't appeared yet, but he is quick.
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Buttler competing with Prior in form would be great for us. Jordan impresses me too, but he needs to sustain his pace throughout the day. Overton hasn't appeared yet, but he is quick.
Whisper it quietly, but I've been increasingly encouraged with what I've seen of the 50 over team. Add a switched on KP at three and a strike bowler (hopefully Finn, Rankin or someone like Overton can find some form) and we could be an outside shout at the World Cup next year. Before I'm accused of getting carried away after one win, I think the spine of the ODI team has been developing nicely over the past year or so and we've still got another year before the WC to fill in the gaps.
Still not sure about Cook being in the ODI side let alone captain though!!
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We only just seem to be learning that we need to be getting 300+ though. For far too long we took the conservative approach of building a solid base and only really going for it in the last 10 overs. That's just not enough these days. The 20-20 form of the game has influenced the ODI's and often a lot of 20-20 players are coming through into the ODI team. Today was the best evidence that it's starting to sink in as we made a good start. It's still one match though. It needs to be consistently like that.
Today's line-up was pretty good. Out of the batsmen, I would have only flipped Bopara and Buttler around.
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Buttler competing with Prior in form would be great for us. Jordan impresses me too, but he needs to sustain his pace throughout the day. Overton hasn't appeared yet, but he is quick.
Whisper it quietly, but I've been increasingly encouraged with what I've seen of the 50 over team. Add a switched on KP at three and a strike bowler (hopefully Finn, Rankin or someone like Overton can find some form) and we could be an outside shout at the World Cup next year. Before I'm accused of getting carried away after one win, I think the spine of the ODI team has been developing nicely over the past year or so and we've still got another year before the WC to fill in the gaps.
Still not sure about Cook being in the ODI side let alone captain though!!
Cook on form is fine, he's capable of scoring at a strike rate of 90+ and with the right players around him that's not a problem. Form is massively important though, because I think given the way his tour has gone I believe it'll influence his captaincy. If he stays as captain he'll be a lot more assertive from now on.
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Buttler competing with Prior in form would be great for us. Jordan impresses me too, but he needs to sustain his pace throughout the day. Overton hasn't appeared yet, but he is quick.
Whisper it quietly, but I've been increasingly encouraged with what I've seen of the 50 over team. Add a switched on KP at three and a strike bowler (hopefully Finn, Rankin or someone like Overton can find some form) and we could be an outside shout at the World Cup next year. Before I'm accused of getting carried away after one win, I think the spine of the ODI team has been developing nicely over the past year or so and we've still got another year before the WC to fill in the gaps.
Still not sure about Cook being in the ODI side let alone captain though!!
Cook on form is fine, he's capable of scoring at a strike rate of 90+ and with the right players around him that's not a problem. Form is massively important though, because I think given the way his tour has gone I believe it'll influence his captaincy. If he stays as captain he'll be a lot more assertive from now on.
I can see where you're coming from Paul and I suppose Cook would be OK to open if someone like KP is batting at three. When we had an top three of Cook, Bell and Trott in ODIs we got bogged down too often in overs 20-40 and there was no real acceleration. Cook and Bell are both capable of scoring run-a-ball hundreds, but if both are opening we need someone who can accelerate the innings when required batting at three.
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We only just seem to be learning that we need to be getting 300+ though. For far too long we took the conservative approach of building a solid base and only really going for it in the last 10 overs. That's just not enough these days. The 20-20 form of the game has influenced the ODI's and often a lot of 20-20 players are coming through into the ODI team. Today was the best evidence that it's starting to sink in as we made a good start. It's still one match though. It needs to be consistently like that.
Today's line-up was pretty good. Out of the batsmen, I would have only flipped Bopara and Buttler around.
Totally agree. I have to say I don't think I've ever seen an England player capable of smashing big hits on a regular basis like Buttler can.
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Buttler competing with Prior in form would be great for us. Jordan impresses me too, but he needs to sustain his pace throughout the day. Overton hasn't appeared yet, but he is quick.
Whisper it quietly, but I've been increasingly encouraged with what I've seen of the 50 over team. Add a switched on KP at three and a strike bowler (hopefully Finn, Rankin or someone like Overton can find some form) and we could be an outside shout at the World Cup next year. Before I'm accused of getting carried away after one win, I think the spine of the ODI team has been developing nicely over the past year or so and we've still got another year before the WC to fill in the gaps.
Still not sure about Cook being in the ODI side let alone captain though!!
Cook on form is fine, he's capable of scoring at a strike rate of 90+ and with the right players around him that's not a problem. Form is massively important though, because I think given the way his tour has gone I believe it'll influence his captaincy. If he stays as captain he'll be a lot more assertive from now on.
I can see where you're coming from Paul and I suppose Cook would be OK to open if someone like KP is batting at three. When we had an top three of Cook, Bell and Trott in ODIs we got bogged down too often in overs 20-40 and there was no real acceleration. Cook and Bell are both capable of scoring run-a-ball hundreds, but if both are opening we need someone who can accelerate the innings when required batting at three.
I agree I think that's why they've put Stokes up there, he can accelerate an innings pretty quickly.
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Snatching defeat from the jaws ao victory again I see.
What exactly does Ravi Bopara bring to the ODI team?
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I've said that so he'll smash 40 from 28 balls to win the game!
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What the fuck was Root thinking?
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Not sure how Boapara can be given out there, it is not conslusive at all whether his foot was down or not
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Horrible end again. Bopara unlucky, Root brainless. He really worries me as he continually plays poor Cricket. It cost us the game tonight and someone needs to tell him so.
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That was an embarrassing end to an embarrassing tour.
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That was an embarrassing end to an embarrassing tour.
It really is, we've embarrassed ourselves and been the architects of our own downfall a lot of the time. Tonight being another classic example.
I can take defeat, I can take being outplayed. What really pisses me off is being out fought and out thought. Throughout this shambles of a tour we've been out fought, out thought and out played.
Highlight: the emergence of Ben Stokes.
Lowlight: everything else
With a special mention to Greame Swann again who really did let his team down.
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Not sure how Boapara can be given out there, it is not conslusive at all whether his foot was down or not
I don't know why the 3rd Umpire always seems to give decision like this against us. It was the same in the World Cup final against India. Nothing seems to have been mentioned about how only the one Bail has come out of it's Groove the second that Bopara's foot is questionably in the air. There was no conclusive evidence so you would have thought they would have given the Batsman the benefit of the doubt. For me, it wasn't bad luck - it was bad officiating, again.
We might have sneaked over the line had that decision not gone against us but we should never have been in that position in the first place. 150+ for 3, chasing 219 and we still manage to find a way to lose a game that should have been ours.
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That's a really bad way to lose.
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Still puzzled by the Bopara decision. Most conclusive camera angle showed that his foot was on the ground when the bail was actually dislodged and I can't quite understand why hewas given out. Probably cost us the game, but we didn't help ourselves before that.
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Wombat where are you- wombat where are you :):):)
I'm over here eastie - having a quiet chuckle :D
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Wombat where are you- wombat where are you :):):)
I'm over here eastie - having a quiet chuckle :D
Fair play you old rascal, you deserve the plaudits this series - but enjoy your glory for we WILL regain the urn next year :)
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In all fairness, I think your boys have shown enough during the ODI's to suggest that the immediate outlook isn't quite as bleak as some of you seem to think. Bring it on!
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Don't like the plans put in place by the ICC with India, Australia and England having all the power. They've removed the Test Championship idea as well and the future tour programme is gone. It isn't good for Test cricket.
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Find it odd that we've left Stokes out of our Twenty20 side.
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Congratulations to the England Women's team in retaining the Ashes.
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Find it odd that we've left Stokes out of our Twenty20 side.
Yep, especially as Root has had a completely nightmarish tour.
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Yeah or alternatively Bresnan is just worse than Stokes is in all aspects.
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Fucking hell I'd forgotten about Dernbach.
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Fucking hell I'd forgotten about Dernbach.
You won't after he has bowled a bit longer. You will soon remember him !
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Bloody hell we're bowling with zero discipline.
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Ah, T20 time so Dernbach can take over as the villain of the piece for a while despite his figures being more than good enough to have deserved his place in the side. I've said it before, in T20 I like him, he's erratic and inconsistent but he'll throw down 4-5 wicket balls in his 4 overs because batsmen don't know what to do with him. He's never going to be a cheap bowler but in T20 no one with any pace will be, genuinely quick bowlers in T20 have to be wicket takers and Dernbach is definitely one of those.
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We don't look like getting a wicket at all at the moment.
Aussies at nearly 10 per over.
We do have a fantastic batting line up so not overly worried at the moment.
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I think my greater concern is how we've picked the side, we didn't pick Stokes because 'we've played really good Twenty20 cricket lately'. So we've stuck with the same side that last played in the summer? That seems slightly odd, there's no accounting for form or anything just that we did ok in the summer.
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A wicket, at last.
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Not picking Stokes is up there with some of the most mystifying decisions of this tour. And that's saying something.
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111-1 after 11. Never seen that before.
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Excellent spell by Broad, and it maintains my belief that top bowlers will perform at all levels of the game.
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Cricket is definitely my armchair sport but still my second sport. As such I don't understand the intricacies of the rules like I do in footy (i.e. Suarez the the other week, should have been booked for diving).
That wicket that Luke Wright just had chalked off for being over waist height was a bit strange. The guy takes a pace or so down the wicket and strikes the ball just about over waist height,gets caught and is given not out. But on replay the ball would probably have gone on to hit the top of the stumps,but no one mentioned it on commentary. So what's the rule then?
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Cricket is definitely my armchair sport but still my second sport. As such I don't understand the intricacies of the rules like I do in footy (i.e. Suarez the the other week, should have been booked for diving).
That wicket that Luke Wright just had chalked off for being over waist height was a bit strange. The guy takes a pace or so down the wicket and strikes the ball just about over waist height,gets caught and is given not out. But on replay the ball would probably have gone on to hit the top of the stumps,but no one mentioned it on commentary. So what's the rule then?
Height at the stumps isn't important, height at the crease is, if it was judged that it was going to pass the crease over waist high then it's a no ball, I haven't seen it so I have no idea if that's likely but that'll be the reasoning.
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Very expensive from Dernbach and Briggs there, which will just add fuel to all the Dernbach hate on the internet, the guy is ranked 7th in the world in T20 bowling but every game the BBC and sky feeds are full of people slagging him off, pretty much regardless of what actually happens (he deserves a bit of stick today on his figures).
As I've said before he has a strike rate of 1 wicket every 16 deliveries and an economy of less than 8, I don't really care how erratic he looks, his figures justify his inclusion
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I think Dernbach's figures are somewhat influenced by his early career, because he started very well. However since people have worked him out, he's gone for a lot more runs and he should be getting wickets when he bowls at the death.
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Also Bresnan should not be going for 10 an over for no wickets given his experience level.
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I think Dernbach's figures are somewhat influenced by his early career, because he started very well. However since people have worked him out, he's gone for a lot more runs and he should be getting wickets when he bowls at the death.
I disagree, before today his last 2 England games he took 6 for 57 and was superb in both games, but still got slagged off by everyone. As I say, his erratic style and perceived arrogance is held against him constantly so every run he concedes is the worst delivery ever and every wicket ball is either ignored or lucky.
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3 down already in 5 overs..:(
come on England !!
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Awful shot from Wright giving his wicket away and then poor decision making from Hales to put himself in that position when he had a new guy in there with him. We need a 60-70 stand from these 2 at a decent rate now then Buttler will have the platform to win it for us still.
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Well Twenty20 seems to be going the same way as the other forms. This is such a bad tour.
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Buttler is the key man as he was always going to be in such a big chase, he needs to be there at the end now really.
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All over now.
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Losing Wright, Hales and Morgan so close together killed it, meant Buttler was in far too early and under too much pressure, We need to be on 140+ with 5-6 overs to go when Buttler came in, he's got the power and ability to finish from there but we needed the rest to go at 9-10 an over and give him the chance.
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Ravi will sort it....oh he has Bresnan with him......our goose is cooked.
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Bopara and Broad did very well, but once again it's a fairly comfortable hammering. The idea of selecting our last twenty20 line up rather than picking on form was crazy. Across all forms of the game I have absolutely no clue how Bresnan consistently gets a place in the first 11. He is a decent bowler and a pretty average bat, he should be nowhere near the team.
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Gotta give Ravi a lot of credit, he's single-handedly made our score respectable there.
Bresnan, I like him at test level but he's not a T20 player. I was very disappointed with Wright as well, he was trying to put it into orbit with every hit, yes it was a big target but there was no need to be swinging like that in the 5th over. Dernbach and Briggs were both too expensive but I think both should stay in for the next match, Bres for Stokes would be my only change.
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What did we lose by in the end, about 12 runs? There was one phase late on where the Aussies were able to keep Bopara off strike. With his performance today, it would have been very interesting if he could have got on strike in those overs. Admittedly it would have been papering over the cracks but it goes to show just what a good performance it was from Bopara.
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It was a great performance by Bopara, but it did cover up a pretty poor batting display on the whole.
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I really can't get into this T20 carry on, I've tried, but this time next week everybody will have instantly forgotten these matches.
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I really can't get into this T20 carry on, I've tried, but this time next week everybody will have instantly forgotten these matches.
I forgot about this one....turned TV on only 5 overs of match left.
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I really can't get into this T20 carry on, I've tried, but this time next week everybody will have instantly forgotten these matches.
That's why even as a member I do not really care about Warks renaming the team for this competition.
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Still no Stokes, ridiculous.
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We're completely imploding again.
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Shocking decision, Morgan had clearly grounded his bat
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No argument with that one though :)
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Complete shambles again, the fact we've had two players run out even though one was dubious sums it up. Quite why Root is still playing is beyond me, for his own sake he should be dropped.
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Glad we gave Stokes a 'rest'. Who knows this may be a bowling wicket, but it's a pitiful batting display.
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Jade Dernbach..........why oh why
7 overs for over 80 runs so far in 2 games, if he bowls his full quota he may go for over 100
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Good grief that is a hammering and a half. 3 series lost in Australia, what an absolute horror show of a tour this has been. There were pretty much no redeeming features in this game.
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Breaking from The Telegraph.
Flower told to resign.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/england/10609601/Andy-Flower-leaves-his-post-as-England-coach-after-disastrous-Ashes-tour-in-Australia.html
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As I said on the rugby thread apparently Flower is leaving his role, but it's not a resignation he's been sacked essentially. If that's true, it's a bit harsh but maybe he didn't have a coherant plan to take us forward and after this tour we need a big change.
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I'm not surprised, as I've said a few times on here, the chemistry between Flower and Cook is wrong, they just make us too negative, I expected one of them to go come the end of the tour and I always fancied the ECB would side with Cook when they made a decision. I hope the first thing the new coach does is get rid of Gooch, our batsmen have gone backwards in the last 18months and he has to be held accountable for that.
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I'm not surprised, as I've said a few times on here, the chemistry between Flower and Cook is wrong, they just make us too negative, I expected one of them to go come the end of the tour and I always fancied the ECB would side with Cook when they made a decision. I hope the first thing the new coach does is get rid of Gooch, our batsmen have gone backwards in the last 18months and he has to be held accountable for that.
Yep the whole mentality of the team needs to change.
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According to Cricinfo, Giles is expected to take over. There's a press conference on Saturday morning Aussie time.
For me this would be an uninspired choice. Giles is a safe pair of hands. We need some outside input; too often over the last 6 or 7 years we've been too conservative in our approach. We're consistently left behind in the shorter formats and although we've been a successful test side until fairly recently, our brand of cricket has been attritional and dull.
I'd go for Tom Moody or Michael Vaughan both of whom would inject some fresh impetus.
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According to Cricinfo, Giles is expected to take over. There's a press conference on Saturday morning Aussie time.
For me this would be an uninspired choice. Giles is a safe pair of hands. We need some outside input; too often over the last 6 or 7 years we've been too conservative in our approach. We're consistently left behind in the shorter formats and although we've been a successful test side until fairly recently, our brand of cricket has been attritional and dull.
I'd go for Tom Moody or Michael Vaughan both of whom would inject some fresh impetus.
I would hope Giles is just given temporary charge until a proper appointment is made I agree appointing "The King of Spain" full time would be very negative.....Vaughan for me
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Giles shouldn't take over he hasn't proven himself anywhere near adequately.
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Thanks Andy flower for some fantastic times in the last few years - I agree with pwa that this is not the time for Giles ,
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Seems the vision for the future is for one man to head up all aspects of the national team and combine test and one day cricket - I wonder where that leaves Giles if he is not chosen to front all forms of the game , would he be prepared to become an assistant to the new coach?
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He most likely will be though. I doubt it's just the Head Coach and Captain that lack imagination.
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Flower's statement suggests he quit, when he became apparent that they want a coach across all three formats.
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Thanks Andy flower for some fantastic times in the last few years - I agree with pwa that this is not the time for Giles ,
Aggers doesn't think it'll be Giles.
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I think its important to see someone from outside the current set up to bring a level of freshness to the role , so a no to Gilo from me.
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Started the bowling alright, Dernbach and Bresnan actually doing well.
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Bresnan has returned to form now though and is getting hammered.
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Stokes is having a nightmare here as well.
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Jordan and in particular Broad have pegged them back. Broad's third over was fantastic.
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Ah Dernbach strikes again.
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Our Big Bash players have done appallingly this series.
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Once again we're folding like a deck of cards, terrible terrible batting.
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Jade dernbach is a laughable selection. Does he have naked pics of Giles or something, the guy is a shit bowler and I'm sure I read the most expensive in t20 cricket.
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This is the worst tour I can remember, Its continuous beatings.our players look brAindead.
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Bopara wicket sums everything up in one ball!!!
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Bopara wicket sums everything up in one ball!!!
Actually scrub that comment - it intimates that we have had our fair share of bad luck!!!!
Some yes - but basically we have been fukcing shite from day one to today....
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111 all out - Nelson
Now that sums up the tour!!!
Couldn't even bat for 20 overs.
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I'm not old enough to remember a tour this shambolic. In fact, has there ever been a tour this shambolic?
Even when the Aussies had a genuinely tremendous team and our players were distinctly average we never took this sort of pasting.
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Jade dernbach is a laughable selection.
I saw his pathetic behaviour at the conclusion of the previous quick cricket match. He's a fucking joke, looked like he was playing the hard man which was laughable when you look at how he has bowled, I hope the Aussies gave him it back twice as much.
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This tour is by far and away the worst in English cricket history. It's been an utter shambles from start to finish and over the whole tour I can only think of five players who come out with credit. They are Stokes, Broad, Morgan, Buttler and Jordan.
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Also I don't see how Giles can be in the frame, firstly he's within the system and we need a change. Secondly he hasn't been able to get anything out of the short format of the tour. We've lost 7 out of 8 and most of those heavily, so he shouldn't be rewarded for that.
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Also I don't see how Giles can be in the frame, firstly he's within the system and we need a change. Secondly he hasn't been able to get anything out of the short format of the tour. We've lost 7 out of 8 and most of those heavily, so he shouldn't be rewarded for that.
Somewhat unfair....he hasn't had the players of his choice available to him has he.
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Also I don't see how Giles can be in the frame, firstly he's within the system and we need a change. Secondly he hasn't been able to get anything out of the short format of the tour. We've lost 7 out of 8 and most of those heavily, so he shouldn't be rewarded for that.
Somewhat unfair....he hasn't had the players of his choice available to him has he.
No different from Australia, they took a load of players out for their upcoming Test series. Whatever the resources available we have been pitiful in all formats this tour, and if the team manager goes you can't replace from within after that.
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Despite being a bear I view Giles as being another company man, a dull status quo, unimaginative, don't rock the boat selection. So it will most likely be him.
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Despite being a bear I view Giles as being another company man, a dull status quo, unimaginative, don't rock the boat selection. So it will most likely be him.
I agree, ash has been great for warwickshire but he is not the right man for the big job that awaits the next England coach - i really hope he doesn't get the nod.
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Despite being a bear I view Giles as being another company man, a dull status quo, unimaginative, don't rock the boat selection. So it will most likely be him.
I agree, ash has been great for warwickshire but he is not the right man for the big job that awaits the next England coach - i really hope he doesn't get the nod.
I don't disagree with either of you here, i also do not think he is the right man for the job but what i ask is who is? Gary Kirsten seems to be the choice of the pundits
and he does have a good record over the last four years and is more or less available or at least he is 'only' coaching Delhi Daredevils in the IPL, but i daresay they pay him a pretty penny
so it may cost the ECB if they want him. So on that basis other names mentioned have been Tom Moody and our own Ashley Giles......i think the ECB may go for the man they know in Ashley.
He, rightly or wrongly is probably the favourite!!!
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Would prefer kirsten or moody to Giles .
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I wonder if someone like Ian Botham or Nassar Hussain would be interested in the job or are they to comfortable in their Sky jobs
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I wonder if someone like Ian Botham or Nassar Hussain would be interested in the job or are they to comfortable in their Sky jobs
Michael vaughan?
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Would prefer kirsten or moody to Giles .
Me too, we need fresh ideas.
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You should only promote from within when you're happy with the results you're getting and want to keep the status quo. I can't imagine that the general public are going to be happy and being as we've clearly moved into a transition phase with a lot of young kids coming through, we do need to look outside the current set-up.
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Unsure about Moody's credentials - he was Sri Lankan coach from around 2005-7 getting to the final of the World Cup, he then left them to coach at the WACA for 3 years not exactly pulling any trees up.
Then last year he coached Sunrisers Hyderabad....presumably he is contracted to be their coach this year as well.
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I can't seeing England hiring an Australian as head coach to be honest.
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I can't seeing England hiring an Australian as head coach to be honest.
We employed David Saker as bowling coach didn't we.
I don't want Moody so i hope you're right!!!
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I can't seeing England hiring an Australian as head coach to be honest.
We employed David Saker as bowling coach didn't we.
I don't want Moody so i hope you're right!!!
I think bowling or batting coach is one thing, being head coach is another.
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Sounds like KP's international career is at an end, scape goat.
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The curtain looks set to come down on Kevin Pietersen’s brilliant but controversial England career after urgent talks at Lord’s.
Sportsmail understands that a meeting between Ashley Giles, Alastair Cook and Paul Downton has decided it is best for England to move on towards a new era without their highly talented maverick.
A statement from the ECB will almost certainly confirm that one of the best batsmen to ever play for England has reached the end of the line after one controversy too many in a chequered career.
It looked certain Pietersen would be jettisoned in the aftermath of the 5-0 humiliation in Australia after his fragile relationship with team director Andy Flower had broken down towards the end of the Ashes thrashing.
Yet the surprise decision of Flower to stand down on Friday after England’s results in Australia went from very bad to even worse during the limited-overs leg changed the landscape and offered Pietersen the possibility of a reprieve.
That slight glimmer of hope seems to have disappeared today in a hotel across the road from the home of cricket where one-day coach Giles met captain Cook and new managing director Downton for an unprecedented summit on one player.
On Thursday England are due to announce their party for a one-day tour of West Indies later this month and the World Twenty20 in Bangladesh in March and it now seems certain that Pietersen’s name will not be included.
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Bang on -
@GaryLineker: “@_PaulHayward: If Kevin Pietersen is dumped by England they'll need to explain what he did wrong in Australia. Dislike not enough.” <Agreed
@GaryLineker: Hard to understand the @KP24 situation. Huge talent, poorly managed. Good leaders deal with mavericks. Bring out the best in them.
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Seems he couldn't play again under flower but with flower gone this is odd - cook can't handle him maybe?
@Aggerscricket: I see @piersmorgan - a close friend of KP - tweeting that he has been sacked
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Seems ridiculous to me, you have to deal with your best players not just get rid of them. Really poor again from England.
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Seems ridiculous to me, you have to deal with your best players not just get rid of them. Really poor again from England.
We need to know what he has done to be sacked - both sides of the story .
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@BumbleCricket: “@Denhoun: @BumbleCricket did something major kick off between KP/Cook/Flower in OZ.. No idea ...only dressing room would know
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This has scapegoat written all over it, the worst thing is that there is absolutely no surprise in the move, it's been about as predictable as our play all tour.
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Trott, swann, flower, kp , - four huge figures in recent years in english cricket all gone in the space of weeks - I think we need to know what kp has done wrong here .
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@patmurphybbc: Not sure Ashley Giles had major input into KP decision.They get on well.Think decision taken at highest level -the 'reintegration' advocates
@Aggerscricket: KP not selected for WI ODIs or T20 in Bangladesh. Quotes wish him all the best for rest of career…
@patmurphybbc: KP will now make a fortune around the world playing T20.Friday nights at the Oval as well?
@henrygayle: No @KP24 for the Caribbean tour later this month against W.I?That's really sad for English/International cricket!Don't let the fans suffer
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@patmurphybbc: KP's problem was that if he respected u as a player he'd do anything for you but if u were a coach/player he didn't rate that meant problems
@MichaelVaughan: Sad way to end a mavericks England Career .@KP24 will be missed...Would love to know what he does that is unmanageable !!??
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@Aggerscricket: I see @piersmorgan - a close friend of KP - tweeting that he has been sacked
Good enough reason to get rid. He's a close friend of Piers Moron.
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We should have a H+V comp to see if someone can name the line up for the 1st test against Sri Lanka this summer.
Anyone who can get it spot on at this point can only be a genius.
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This planning for the future line -does it apply to Anderson and prior too then ?
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This planning for the future line -does it apply to Anderson and prior too then ?
Anderson is one of an increasingly small number of genuinely world class bowlers we have. Ditch him now and I can see us conceding lots of runs in our upcoming tours.
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I think the statement from the ECB is ridiculous, they hide behind this future business but who else does this apply to then? Bell, Anderson, Prior? I doubt it. It looks like the ECB are using the Ashes as an excuse to get rid of someone who they can't manage properly. Very disappointing in my opinion. I expect to see a serious change in philosophy if this isn't just about KP. Also I can't think of many times the ECB have made a statement retiring a player, if it isn't that player's choice.
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This planning for the future line -does it apply to Anderson and prior too then ?
Anderson is one of an increasingly small number of genuinely world class bowlers we have. Ditch him now and I can see us conceding lots of runs in our upcoming tours.
I agree ,but I find it a cheap shot to say we are dumping up to plan for the future-clearly a smokescreen.
Cook bell and kp should be the mainstays of our batting .
Let's have the real reason he has been ditched.
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Well let's face it the man whilst talented was a shameful opportunist who would sell his grandma if it benefited him. He has made enough out of cricket so no need to feel sorry for him.
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I don't feel sorry for him, what concerns me is that he was our highest run scorer this series and he's the one who's been told he has no future.
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Yes he was but when a very respected journalist like Jack Bannister says that Pietersen was "very bad influence in the dressing room" then we have to listen to the England management team. No man is greater than the team.
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They've sort of dug themselves a bit of a hole with the "planning for the future" spiel.
So 33 is now considered too old for an international batsman according to the ECB. That means Bell has only 2 years left.
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They didn't say that 33 is too old. It's implied but trying to plan the future by fitting in a player who's only reason for prolonging his England career is to keep his sponsorship deals going is obviously not palatable.
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They didn't say that 33 is too old. It's implied but trying to plan the future by fitting in a player who's only reason for prolonging his England career is to keep his sponsorship deals going is obviously not palatable.
In fairness to Pietersen, he could have made a lot more money as a freelance T20 player than as an England international over the last few years, and his sponsership deals would have probably improved worldwide aswell.
That's not to say he hasn't been a divisive figure at times.
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I just hope it's not a case of he doesn't fit with a couple of senior players, because for all the stories of how he's divisive there are stories from inexperienced players who say he helped them more than anyone. I just hope there isn't a clique and if you don't fit you're out. They certainly need to work how they intergrate new players. Look at Taylor, Compton, Kerrigan they weren't exactly afforded a great opportunity.
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I agree with you Paul to a certain extent. I've stated before on this thread how players in a team don't necessarily have to get along, and stated the example of Warne/Gilchrist who had pure hatred for each other.
The difference is that they were always part of a successful side, whereas this England side has performed averagely to poorly (India series away excepted) for a couple of years now. Therefore divisions in personality will become more destructive when a team is on the slide.
We don't yet know the full story or the real reasons for his ditching here. I will say though that I thought Pietersen was given the opportunity of returning to the side, that a less talented player wouldn't have been given after the SA texting incident.
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The SA texting incident should have been the end of his Test career imo.
But having bought in back and 're- integrated' him it's strange to dump him now - the age thing is a total red herring.
Are Randy and Faulkner running the ECB part time as well as the Villa?
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The SA texting incident should have been the end of his Test career imo.
But having bought in back and 're- integrated' him it's strange to dump him now - the age thing is a total red herring.
Are Randy and Faulkner running the ECB part time as well as the Villa?
In fairness the ECB has never been an especially strong part of the English game. The shameful way it handled the Zimbabwe situation during the 03 World Cup left a pretty huge stain on it's reputation in my eyes.
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That's right but the last 6 months has seen their incompetence taken to a whole new level.
Handing out 12 month central contracts to players openly thinking about retirement in 3 months, the back to back Ashes series, the pissing in the pitch and attempted cover up, total and utter lack of preparation (AGAIN) for an overseas tour, the Trott fiasco, ECB Chairman making a complete idiot of himself whining about boisterous Australian crowds, subsequent refusal to talk to the media, the Graeme Swann retirement fiasco (you heard it first on The Sun website) , the Andy Flower fiasco - ECB want him to stay he wants to stay so naturally he resigns, losing the series 12-1 (worst record ever), the imminent appointment of Ashley Giles (bit harsh maybe but our ODI and T20 teams look as bad as the Test side).
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What KP has done wrong is know how good he is, it's always been that simple.
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Another example of our weakness. Can't deal with a hard character? Back away from it and give him the boot. This is where the top coaches and captains earn some of their corn, integrating difficult match winners into the group. Sometimes when you are dealing with genuine world class talent you can't be so rigid.
Having said that, if he's been an utter twit he needed removing. Will we be told the truth?
I said all along thAt you don't go from being a good team to an utter shambles overnight without there being major trouble and strife behind the scenes. 7 players don't forget how to bat all at the same time. It has been a miserable tour and I'd doubt if anyone wanted to be there after the first month, there was no commeraderie and no fight for each other and a bunch of unhappy individuals got steamrolled by a team enjoying their cricket who couldn't wait for the next days play.
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It's very weak to effectively say we'd rather get rid of one of our best players than try and manage him.
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I think the problem with KP is that he gives the impression that he plays for himself and not the side, whether that is fair or not is besides the point, it is how the world perceives him. His career has lurched from one falling out to another and I think they have taken the pragmatic decision to end it now as that sort of distraction is unhealthy in a period of rebuilding.
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Right well moving on now that the decision is made, it's made. So what's really important is that our team philosophy changes and we become a lot more proactive and aggressive rather than reactive and conservative. If England are to be successful in this era we need to dominate teams.
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Looks like Cook was a major influence in KP going. Pressure is now massively on him to perform.
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Looks like Cook was a major influence in KP going. Pressure is now massively on him to perform.
Am I right in thinking Cook advocated not picking Compton as well on the basis that he scores too slow and puts him under pressure to up the run rate?
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@MichaelVaughan: Talk of @KP24 squaring up to Ali Cook in the Sydney dressing room are utter lies...Someone from @ECB_cricket needs to speak soon
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I think it was right for KP to take a bit of time away from the test team but it was very wrong for us to definitively say his England career is over. It reminds me of when McClaren basically said that Beckham's England career is over. The door should always be open if a player proves that he can still be an asset. A bit of time away from the test team and we could have started assembling the core of a team and then a fresh KP could have come back in to add to that. Just feels like such a waste of talent and we're not exactly spoiled for choice.
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Thing that concerns me is the captain should be able to use any player in the team. He shouldn't be dictating who is in the team. We need to be a much more proactive and exciting team, and I fear Cook apparently getting rid of KP may be symbolic of the opposite of that.
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The thing i find odd is we do not have a new coach in place so surely he should be the man to decide on kp unless they have already earmarked Giles for the job .
Agnew believes kp has been paid up in full for his contract in a bid to keep things quiet but I expect the truth will come out at some stage.
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I hope so, because if it's that Cook can't manage him then what happens if Cook doesn't like someone else?
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My concern is that, given Cook's form as a test opener in 2013, it's a bit much to put such stock in his opinion as to permanently drop one of the finest batsmen in the world.
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My concern is that, given Cook's form as a test opener in 2013, it's a bit much to put such stock in his opinion as to permanently drop one of the finest batsmen in the world.
Well this is it, if Cook has another poor summer then how long do you look at how good he was a couple of years ago?
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Thus far I've seen nothing to suggest this is anything other than using our atrocious Ashes performance as an excuse to get rid of someone that they couldn't manage properly.
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My concern is that, given Cook's form as a test opener in 2013, it's a bit much to put such stock in his opinion as to permanently drop one of the finest batsmen in the world.
I agree. It's almost as if Cook doesn't want competition in the runscoring records, or resents someone who scores quicker than a run every four balls. Of course that's not the case, but we need to move away from the dour, chippy cricket which characterises us under Cook, and the best attacking batsman in the country would seem to be a good place to start trying to make our cricket more proactive.
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@Aggerscricket: Busy day at rumour mill: Jessica Yaylor (KP wife) denies stand up row with Cook. Cook emerges as adamant that time to move on without KP…
@Aggerscricket: …after strongly supporting his return after text gate. Meetings in Oz in which KP spoke up for others re declining standards in preparation
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@Aggerscricket: Busy day at rumour mill: Jessica Yaylor (KP wife) denies stand up row with Cook. Cook emerges as adamant that time to move on without KP…
@Aggerscricket: …after strongly supporting his return after text gate. Meetings in Oz in which KP spoke up for others re declining standards in preparation
This sounds on the money to me, we've toured badly for a few years now, I can imagine KP being straight to the point in blaming the preparation and defending the fringe players.
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@Aggerscricket: Busy day at rumour mill: Jessica Yaylor (KP wife) denies stand up row with Cook. Cook emerges as adamant that time to move on without KP…
@Aggerscricket: …after strongly supporting his return after text gate. Meetings in Oz in which KP spoke up for others re declining standards in preparation
This sounds on the money to me, we've toured badly for a few years now, I can imagine KP being straight to the point in blaming the preparation and defending the fringe players.
Yep and if that's true it stands up to why we've been piss poor at the start of series. KP was probably bang on the money.
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Morgan and kp are good mates so its interesting he's tweeting this -
@piersmorgan: The younger players in England team love @KP24 . It's the older ones who didn't get IPL deals who resent him - they want his cash & talent.
@piersmorgan: You stabbed @KP24 in the back @MattPrior13 - yet you agreed with him re Flower's dictator style. Makes you a flaming hypocrite
@piersmorgan: I'm about to tweet what @MattPrior13 told England players in team meeting after Melbourne Test.
@piersmorgan: 'Flower's behaving like a headmaster, this is a schoolboy environment. F**K Flower! This is OUR team!' - @MattPrior13 to England team.
@piersmorgan: If you didn't say it @MattPrior13 - then sue me. That should clear things up.
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F**k Piers Morgan.
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Yeah I think it's wrong what happened to KP, but I don't care what Morgan thinks.
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I think the ECB have dropped a massive bollock, this whole thing is not going down very well. Like I said if Cook was significantly involved in this, it's wrong. The captain should be able to manage any player put in his side, if he can't do that he shouldn't be captain.
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As seen on a Twitter, if you had the choice between eating a pizza and saving Piers Morgan stuck down a well, what topping would you choose?
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Morgan is a tit but he is a very close friend of kp and seems to be his mouthpiece regarding his axing.
Certainly seems the team as a whole were unhappy with the management on tour but kp is the one who has been scapegoated.
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Imagine England dropping Wayne Rooney and telling him he will never play for his country again without saying why.
People would be banging down the doors of the Football Association to demand an explanation and Middle England would take to the streets in revolt.
So I’m baffled, exasperated and disgusted the England and Wales Cricket Board think they can get rid of Kevin Pietersen, issue a statement full of corporate waffle, and hope everyone will forget about it.
Well, I’ve got news for the amateur comedians who run the ECB. We want answers, the truth. We want detailed, precise reasons behind their decision to end Pietersen’s international career.
If you sacked a factory worker on the shop floor without telling him why he’s been fired, he would take his employers to the cleaners through the courts.
The ECB can’t just hide behind their blazers and wait for the fuss to die down. They can’t leave everyone to speculate why England have ditched one of their finest players.
Guesswork is no way to run a sporting body.
The buffoons at Lord’s don’t just owe KP an explanation – although you might have thought it was a common courtesy to outline why he has been sent into exile.
They owe the paying public, the fans who spend £100 on a ticket to home Test matches, a reason why they have discarded the star attraction.
They owe the punters who spend their life-savings to follow England halfway round the world, only to see them get hammered 5-0, more than a fudged statement.
And they owe subscribers who pay good money to follow the cricket on Sky Sports some hard facts.
Getty Images
A man apart? Pietersen was talented but didn't always seem to enjoy the love of his team-mates
The ECB’s press release about building a new team philosophy and a new ethic was just embarrassing.
When I played cricket, Test matches were usually won by runs, wickets and catches, not administrators spouting rubbish about philosophy.
And nobody is falling for ECB’s red herring about Pietersen being past it at 33.
What a lot of cock and bull – he’s not 43 or 53. Graham Gooch scored 14 Test hundreds when he was older than Pietersen is now.
Down the years, faceless men at Lord’s have had plenty of practice at making themselves look stupid, but they can’t pull the wool over our eyes this time.
Their handling of KP’s dismissal has been pathetic, and they need to grow some balls and brain cells instead of treating the public as mugs.
Pietersen is not immune from criticism. England’s performances in Australia have been abysmal, and there was always going to be some serious repercussions.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/cricket/ian-bothams-verdict-kevin-pietersen-3115603#ixzz2sWjQwt4f
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I don't understand why two nights running 5 Live have felt it necessary to air the views of Piers Moron on a discussion about cricket. Doesn't he spend his time interviewing the likes of Susan Boyle and Katie Price for a living, no doubt there will be a Life Stories with Kevin Pietersen aired before the summer.
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Swann's view that KP's behaviour in Australia was exceptional and the fact he's baffled by the decision to get rid of him lends further credence to the view that the ECB are just using the Ashes as an excuse to get rid of someone they couldn't manage or captain properly.
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All along it's struck me as being a personal issue between Cook and KP, with the ECB backing their captain. In theory I'm not entirely against that, but when your captain has struggled for form with the bat and has had a pretty ropey 18months as captain it starts to feel a bit myopic.
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Its not as if KP had a stellar tour though.
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All along it's struck me as being a personal issue between Cook and KP, with the ECB backing their captain. In theory I'm not entirely against that, but when your captain has struggled for form with the bat and has had a pretty ropey 18months as captain it starts to feel a bit myopic.
Aye, if the captain was fair and evenhanded, he should recommend to the selectors that they drop Alistair Cook based on form.
Although a difficult character at times, I don't think KP was as reviled in the dressing room as some make out.
There might well have been legitimate arguments to drop him (and Cook) based on form when the next test comes around. But depriving the new Head Coach of a player of KP's quality seems petty and vindictive. It's not as if England are so well stocked with quality batsmen that they can afford to do that either.
The loss of Trott (maybe a temporary, maybe for good) is enough of an obstacle to overcome.
Flower, Trott, Swann and now KP all out to grass. I bet the Australians are pulling themselves asunder.
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Its not as if KP had a stellar tour though.
No but he was the top run scorer, so if that's going to be the argument every other batsmen should be up for the chop before him.
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All along it's struck me as being a personal issue between Cook and KP, with the ECB backing their captain. In theory I'm not entirely against that, but when your captain has struggled for form with the bat and has had a pretty ropey 18months as captain it starts to feel a bit myopic.
Aye, if the captain was fair and evenhanded, he should recommend to the selectors that they drop Alistair Cook based on form.
Although a difficult character at times, I don't think KP was as reviled in the dressing room as some make out.
There might well have been legitimate arguments to drop him (and Cook) based on form when the next test comes around. But depriving the new Head Coach of a player of KP's quality seems petty and vindictive. It's not as if England are so well stocked with quality batsmen that they can afford to do that either.
The loss of Trott (maybe a temporary, maybe for good) is enough of an obstacle to overcome.
Flower, Trott, Swann and now KP all out to grass. I bet the Australians are pulling themselves asunder.
Yep and also if you consider that Carberry is unlikely to be a long term solution even if he plays. We're looking at 3 of the top 6 being changed with the removal of KP. It just seems completely bizarre to completely shut the door on someone of his talent.
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Can anyone explain why Joe root is in the one day and 20/20 squads?
Dernbach too. I can bowl slower shite deliveries, shite offcutters, Crap full tosses and loads of other rubbish variations that get smashed out of the park. So what's he got that I haven't?
I've never heard of Stephen parry can anyone tell me anything about him?
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Can anyone explain why Joe root is in the one day and 20/20 squads?
Dernbach too. I can bowl slower shite deliveries, shite offcutters, Crap full tosses and loads of other rubbish variations that get smashed out of the park. So what's he got that I haven't?
I've never heard of Stephen parry can anyone tell me anything about him?
It's all a bit shambolic at the ECB right now - all we need now is the appointment of Giles to cap it all off - farcical.
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Maybe Peter Moores is coming back as coach?
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Its not as if KP had a stellar tour though.
No but he was the top run scorer, so if that's going to be the argument every other batsmen should be up for the chop before him.
No my point is, if you want to act the big I am, you need to be truly at the top of your game. He wasn't. Don't hear of Ian Bell doing this do we?
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Its not as if KP had a stellar tour though.
No but he was the top run scorer, so if that's going to be the argument every other batsmen should be up for the chop before him.
No my point is, if you want to act the big I am, you need to be truly at the top of your game. He wasn't. Don't hear of Ian Bell doing this do we?
Doing what though? I think that's the point there's nothing at all to suggest he was acting the big I am. Swann himself said KP's behaviour was impeccable. Plus you need some players with ego, just look at Viv Richards, Brian Lara etc.
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As an aside NZ are showing how you should play spinners. You don't just go into a bunker, you attack.
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As an aside NZ are showing how you should play spinners. You don't just go into a bunker, you attack.
NZ now have the basis of a good side. In the batting department they are definitely on the up.
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Now that KP has gone, I think the team I'd start the summer with is -
- Cook (captain but on borrowed time)
- Root(form dependant)
- Bell
- Ballance
- Morgan(vice captain)
- Stokes
- Prior/Buttler(form dependant)
- Broad
- Jordan
- Kerrigan
- Anderson
That's with Finn(if he recovers his form), Robson, Lees, Overton all pushing to get in the side. I think there's a decent mixture of aggression and stability as well. Also I'd make Morgan captain of the 50 over team.
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I really do like the NZ side, there's some talent and real aggression. I really rate Trent Boult as well.
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I really do like the NZ side, there's some talent and real aggression. I really rate Trent Boult as well.
And Southee. I remember when he came on the scene during an England tour 10 years ago ish and has always impressed me.
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NZ having a nightmare in second innings.
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Its not as if KP had a stellar tour though.
No but he was the top run scorer, so if that's going to be the argument every other batsmen should be up for the chop before him.
No my point is, if you want to act the big I am, you need to be truly at the top of your game. He wasn't. Don't hear of Ian Bell doing this do we?
Doing what though? I think that's the point there's nothing at all to suggest he was acting the big I am. Swann himself said KP's behaviour was impeccable. Plus you need some players with ego, just look at Viv Richards, Brian Lara etc.
Agnew reckons kp went ' off the rails ' during the last 2 tests , after swann had walked out .
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What a collapse from the Kiwis! They should still have more than enough though.
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And they did. Just.
As for the Pietersen thing. If he goes back to County cricket and scores a stack of runs, and England's middle-order is noticeably missing him, then the pressure to bring him back is immense. The ECB have given themselves no room to manoeuvre. They should have just said 'you're going back to county cricket. Show us that you can do some hard work when asked of you'. Then they'd have seen his dedication and if need be they could have brought him back in. By just cutting our best batsman adrift because people don't like him is embarrassing nonsense.
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And they did. Just.
As for the Pietersen thing. If he goes back to County cricket and scores a stack of runs, and England's middle-order is noticeably missing him, then the pressure to bring him back is immense. The ECB have given themselves no room to manoeuvre. They should have just said 'you're going back to county cricket. Show us that you can do some hard work when asked of you'. Then they'd have seen his dedication and if need be they could have brought him back in. By just cutting our best batsman adrift because people don't like him is embarrassing nonsense.
Its very very unlikely he will play a lot of County Cricket this season, he hasnt got a contract with Surrey or anyone else yet
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Wow. I hope Warwickshire are having a word with a few sponsors.
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I didn't realise that India haven't won a Test away since 2011, that's unbelievable.
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Wow. I hope Warwickshire are having a word with a few sponsors.
Not gonna happen I am afraid.......KP will be looking to play T20 cricket all over the world in India, SA and Australia
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I didn't realise that India haven't won a Test away since 2011, that's unbelievable.
That may change in the Summer Paul...........
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Puts our performances against New Zealand into perspective. The team were criticised but New Zealand are developing into a handy team.
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I really like NZ, they play exciting cricket as well.
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Wow. I hope Warwickshire are having a word with a few sponsors.
Not gonna happen I am afraid.......KP will be looking to play T20 cricket all over the world in India, SA and Australia
Well he could play Championship cricket for a good part of it - Australia's Big Bash finished the other day SA's Ram Slam is finishing today (last few overs Cobras require 21 off 14)
So IPL to come and he will certainly be playing in that. Surrey want to keep him, he will want to play somewhere....so would be good to see him in the county game, but with Surrey relegated last season will he want to stay there!!!!
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I see a statement for the ECB saying that he's been released because all the players need to be behind Cook. As I've said before it seems pretty clear to me that Cook and KP don't get on and Cook has used the shit tour as an excuse to push KP out of the door. However they try to dress that up it comes across as a bit pathetic to me.
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I see a statement for the ECB saying that he's been released because all the players need to be behind Cook. As I've said before it seems pretty clear to me that Cook and KP don't get on and Cook has used the shit tour as an excuse to push KP out of the door. However they try to dress that up it comes across as a bit pathetic to me.
Cook seems a bit prickly when he is criticised but he cannot expect not to be criticised after the shambles in Australia .
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The fact that Pietersen has aligned himself with Piers Morgan tells me everything I need to know. England have done the right thing. Kevin Pietersen acts only in the best interests of Kevin Pietersen. He had at best a year left before he ran off for the Indian riches anyway. He's quite happy to take them now. Everywhere he has been, Kevin Pietersen has fallen out with his team.
No amount of Piers Morgan whining will bring him back.
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The fact that Pietersen has aligned himself with Piers Morgan tells me everything I need to know. England have done the right thing. Kevin Pietersen acts only in the best interests of Kevin Pietersen. He had at best a year left before he ran off for the Indian riches anyway. He's quite happy to take them now. Everywhere he has been, Kevin Pietersen has fallen out with his team.
No amount of Piers Morgan whining will bring him back.
Maybe true , I have no idea but there is no doubt he has the potential still to win matches for England when on form and has provided many great memories down the years - he will be a hard act to follow.
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The fact that Pietersen has aligned himself with Piers Morgan tells me everything I need to know. England have done the right thing. Kevin Pietersen acts only in the best interests of Kevin Pietersen. He had at best a year left before he ran off for the Indian riches anyway. He's quite happy to take them now. Everywhere he has been, Kevin Pietersen has fallen out with his team.
No amount of Piers Morgan whining will bring him back.
Spot on mate KP is all about himself as he showed with his very careless batting and poor attitude.......time to move on
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The fact that Pietersen has aligned himself with Piers Morgan tells me everything I need to know. England have done the right thing. Kevin Pietersen acts only in the best interests of Kevin Pietersen. He had at best a year left before he ran off for the Indian riches anyway. He's quite happy to take them now. Everywhere he has been, Kevin Pietersen has fallen out with his team.
No amount of Piers Morgan whining will bring him back.
Spot on mate KP is all about himself as he showed with his very careless batting and poor attitude.......time to move on
Bit harsh Spangley but lets not forget the good things too and he has been one of the greatest England batsmen - a player who entertained and one that people went out of their way to watch .
We move on without him and lets hope that cook rediscovers his form as if he has a bad summer there will be a clamour for his sacking .
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When did he become 'KP' the brand? It's as irritating as 'JT', 'Lamps' and 'Stevie G'.
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When did he become 'KP' the brand? It's as irritating as 'JT', 'Lamps' and 'Stevie G'.
Careful CJ, I didn't get get where I am today by biting the brand that bleeds me.
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Well the ECB statement clarifies nothing, and the problem is that Cook's captaincy should very much be under the microscope.
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Well the ECB statement clarifies nothing, and the problem is that Cook's captaincy should very much be under the microscope.
I like cook and think he should be given another chance as captain but I think this whole issue makes him look pretty weak and vulnerable , having had the winter we had then he should expect criticism and encourage players to speak up not meekly follow the party line.
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Morgan's pulled out of the IPL, I suspect that he's been advised he's in with a very good chance of getting his Test place back. Now that KP is gone I think we definitely need Morgan's potential destructive ability in the middle order.
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Morgan's pulled out of the IPL, I suspect that he's been advised he's in with a very good chance of getting his Test place back. Now that KP is gone I think we definitely need Morgan's potential destructive ability in the middle order.
Still have my doubts about him at test level but I agree without kp we need someone who can take the game to the bowlers and Morgan deserves another chance.
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Morgan does deserve another shot, his technique had completely gone when he was dropped but he's recovered that now and we need dynamism. I also think that if he's successful he might be an excellent captaincy option.
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Surrey have agreed terms with kp for the new season - will put bums on seats in the Friday night 20/20 for sure.
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I think Angus Fraser being appointed as a selector is a good call.
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I think Angus Fraser being appointed as a selector is a good call.
Agreed
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Excellent news that Paul Collingwood is joining the coaching staff as well. He was talking about a much more proactive style of cricket.
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Excellent news that Paul Collingwood is joining the coaching staff as well. He was talking about a much more proactive style of cricket.
What role is he joining as?
I find it odd these appointments and decisions being made when there is no head coach in place as yet - surely he should be the man making these decisions.
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Excellent news that Paul Collingwood is joining the coaching staff as well. He was talking about a much more proactive style of cricket.
What role is he joining as?
I find it odd these appointments and decisions being made when there is no head coach in place as yet - surely he should be the man making these decisions.
Unless it's Giles and they've already consulted him.
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Australia terrorising South Africa now. 27-3.
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Also no one in the world seems used to playing genuine pace anymore. The Johnson bouncers are causing mayhem. How would the batsmen have gotten on against 70's and 80's pace barrages?
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Excellent news that Paul Collingwood is joining the coaching staff as well. He was talking about a much more proactive style of cricket.
What role is he joining as?
I find it odd these appointments and decisions being made when there is no head coach in place as yet - surely he should be the man making these decisions.
Unless it's Giles and they've already consulted him.
Seems its just for the one day and 20/20 World Cup series and he's due back at Durham afterwards.
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Excellent news that Paul Collingwood is joining the coaching staff as well. He was talking about a much more proactive style of cricket.
What role is he joining as?
I find it odd these appointments and decisions being made when there is no head coach in place as yet - surely he should be the man making these decisions.
Unless it's Giles and they've already consulted him.
Seems its just for the one day and 20/20 World Cup series and he's due back at Durham afterwards.
I would imagine that's because they haven't made a decision on the long term team director. Once that's decided I expect to see Collingwood on board.
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Collingwood will join England on a short-term secondment from Durham, where he remains captain. Ashley Giles, the England Limited Overs Coach, added: “Colly will add great energy and a winning T20 pedigree to the tour party. We are really looking forward to his involvement.”
Paul will be back in the North East ahead of the new domestic season, and will lead the Champions out at Emirates Durham on 20th April against Somerset in the LV=County Championship.
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Collingwood will join England on a short-term secondment from Durham, where he remains captain. Ashley Giles, the England Limited Overs Coach, added: “Colly will add great energy and a winning T20 pedigree to the tour party. We are really looking forward to his involvement.”
Paul will be back in the North East ahead of the new domestic season, and will lead the Champions out at Emirates Durham on 20th April against Somerset in the LV=County Championship.
I'm sure that's what they're saying at the moment, but if he's deemed a success he'll join the England coaching staff. It'll be like Andy Farrell in rugby union.
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Collingwood will join England on a short-term secondment from Durham, where he remains captain. Ashley Giles, the England Limited Overs Coach, added: “Colly will add great energy and a winning T20 pedigree to the tour party. We are really looking forward to his involvement.”
Paul will be back in the North East ahead of the new domestic season, and will lead the Champions out at Emirates Durham on 20th April against Somerset in the LV=County Championship.
I'm sure that's what they're saying at the moment, but if he's deemed a success he'll join the England coaching staff. It'll be like Andy Farrell in rugby union.
Maybe in time but he's captain of the champions and might want to carry on playing while having such success .
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Got my ticket for the Cricket World Cup game next Feb here in Christchurch. It's England v Scotland.