Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: andyaston on September 15, 2013, 12:46:08 PM
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Having been a season ticket holder since the late 1980s give or take a few half season tickets I have never known such shocking home form as the last few years. Since early November 2011 we have won six home games. Yes, six home games in nearly two full calender years.
Lambert has to be partly responsible because in his period he has only managed 5 home wins in 21 games. I thought it may be different this season but yesterday angered me because nothing has changed at all. Newcastle, a team low on confidence, with all sorts of internal conflict and an awful away record reading one away win in 18 months eased to victory against us on Saturday. So thats two awat victories for them in 18 months both at Villa Park.
Why are we such an easy touch in front of our own fans? It's begining to upset me, asked whether we would win before the match by a few confident fellow fans I replied 'that I don't trust our home form' I wished so much that I was wrong. We let teams settle far too easily at Villa Park instead of going for them. When is the last time we scored an early goal?
No clean sheets since last December, awful naive defending especially by Clarke who cost us the game yersterday by inviting Ben Arfa inside on his strong foot, even a young lad in the stand knows how too defend better then that! We have not learnt from our mistakes. We got Sylla in last January and our midfield shored up and protected our back four better. But, Lambert plays a lightweight in El Ahmadi instead of him who just looks out of his depth.
I'm just fed up of teams strolling up to Villa Park in thier slippers in comfort, being given a goal head start with thier fans taking the piss and enjoying a lovely day out in Brum. Ultimately taking back an easy three points on their journey home.
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Our home form is a major issue for a number of reasons. Principally it's our tactics at home are just not good enough, we need to be able to play through midfield and have patient build up. This will create sustained pressure and we will score goals. Additionally we have to address the number of goals we concede.
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Our home form is a major issue for a number of reasons. Principally it's our tactics at home are just not good enough, we need to be able to play through midfield and have patient build up. This will create sustained pressure and we will score goals. Additionally we have to address the number of goals we concede.
Very true, there can be no excuse for the way we seem to struggle at home so often, there seems no idea how to break teams down or change things when they aren't working - we need to set up differently at home and be far more positive .
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Yep counter attack at home doesn't work unless you're playing the teams at the very top. We have to be patient and build sustained pressure.
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I think there is a sentence in the initial post which is totally untrue too. Newcastle are not low on confidence, and man for man are a significantly better and more experienced side. Cabeye and Sissokho are top drawer centre midfield players, Cisse is a top class striker, Ben Arfa would be incredible in our side and is only still there due to the injury issues he has had. Debauchy, Colocinni and the other centre back are all regular internationals for top sides, and Santon and Krul are both very decent players. Only Anita is unproven in that side really. Compared to ours, it is streets ahead. We were tactically woeful, and Lambert is fully responsible for that and the fact he has not gone and got a player like Ben Arfa that can terrorise and create, but Newcastle are being way, way under-estimated by people.
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can we play all our games away
no.i did not think so,anyway now the shit as it the fan if we don't get a result at Norwich PL will have too make changes NOT BEFORE don't panic its only played 4
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Newcastle looked good yesterday, but they are very hit and miss - i don't see them as a top 10 side and they will probably struggle around the bottom 6 , we made it too easy for them and they will not get many games this season where teams let them play and give them so much space.
They were better than us but we were very very poor - probably 7 or 8 players below par and made them look better than they are .
We should be beating teams like that at home.
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We are desperately short of an attacking midfielder who can unlock defences, like Ben Arfa. It's painfully obvious and must be addressed.
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We are desperately short of an attacking midfielder who can unlock defences, like Ben Arfa. It's painfully obvious and must be addressed.
Too late now as the window is shut but its been a priority for a long time and one that should have been addressed rather than another striker.
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Ironically, we may have been better had we not had 3 up front: it encouraged us to try and hoof the ball instead of getting it down and playing through the opposition. Perhpas Bacuna or Tonev in midfield along with the other three might have worked better.
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Under estimated Newcastle ? They were utter shite last season hence their league position. They had also won once way from home in the league all season. Care to guess who that victory was against
Yesterday's loss was unacceptable really. I hope it was a blip as its getting embarrassing
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Mister E, I think I agree in that the forwards spent too much time too high up the pitch - they didn't get back or join in, and coupled with the midfielders not really getting forward enough we looked as static as any Mike Bassett-esque 4-4-2.
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I suspect more teams will also have us figured out when we play on their patch. I think we'll struggle to get a really solid run of away form again like we have done on occasions in the last few years.
If we don't sort out our home form, we'll be in trouble. I actually think resorting to a bog standard 4-4-2 might be the way to do it at home. Have Gabby and Tonev on either flank and perhaps have one of our front men dropping off slightly, either Benteke or Helenius. At least that way we can introduce a bit of width to our game and try and get crosses into the box for the big men, as well as help out our fullbacks defensively, because they're our weak link at the moment. I don't think our centerbacks have been all that bad. We have to resign ourselves to the fact that we're not technically proficient enough to play a possession game. In all honesty, the way to go about it, is the O Neill way. Play at a high tempo get the ball wide as much as we can and feed the two front men. It's not pretty but I'd rather be average at home than piss poor. Our away form will be good enough on the whole I suspect.
What with Albrighton still at the club, might he be a worthwhile option to slip in wide right? He works hard, he provides width. It's for want of a better option granted, but it's also surely his last season at the club to try and make the grade. If he got back to his form under Houllier, he'd be an asset, particularly with Lowton to overlap.
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The bog standard 4-4-2 at home won't do anything except make us play in exactly the same way we have for 10 years. There's no going back - as a club, if we want to play well and win at home, we have to do things we have never done before, and just fucking move on from the same old Britisher tactics that just couldn't be more screamingly inadequate.
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I think that assuming we are alright this season, the signings we make in the summer have to for the most part be obvious improvements on what we already have.
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I think it may be more down to the attitude that they start a game in rather than the formation
they need to come out pumped up ready to attack from the of, like Man Utd used to do under Fergie, even when playing a team considered usefull, they would fly at them, sometimes the game was over in the first 15 minites before the opposition could even get playing
I don't know whether Lambert can do this, I cant remember one game where we have played decently for the whole 90 minutes, we are a one half team and hope to get a result based on scoring during the good bit,
its as if we have our own version of Crickets power play
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The bog standard 4-4-2 at home won't do anything except make us play in exactly the same way we have for 10 years. There's no going back - as a club, if we want to play well and win at home, we have to do things we have never done before, and just fucking move on from the same old Britisher tactics that just couldn't be more screamingly inadequate.
The problem is I'm not sure we've got the quality to play the more modern, attractive approach. Were trying to play with a certain subtlety, but ending up looking even more unrefined than if we were playing the old school 4-4-2.
I'd love to see us to dominate home games and dictate the tempo of games but we don't have the quality in midfield. What we do have is solid players to put in the middle, and pace on the flanks. I think looking at our squad, if anyone is going to possess a bit of guile, its probably one of our forwards. Certainly Benteke, potentially Helenius.
Again though, not signing the "number 10" is going to cause us problems. The frustrating thing is, that given how Lambert apparently aspires to play, that sort of player is essential and he's not signed a single player of that ilk yet. Hes signed 4 six foot center forwards though.
I can only see us struggling if we continue setting up like we have been at home. There's no subtlety. Keep Gabby quiet and you're half way there. Keep Benteke isolated and we're buggered.
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This is not a recent thing. In last 10 years we have only won 78 home games, lost 50 and drawn 62. Thats an average of 8 home wins a year and just 28 points a season. Just twice we have got to 10 wins. At least twice its cost us a really good go at the top 4.
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We are desperately short of an attacking midfielder who can unlock defences, like Ben Arfa. It's painfully obvious and must be addressed.
I said not long after the final whistle that if we had Ben Arfa we'd still be undefeated.
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Sylla needs to get the nod. Our so called cultured midfielders couldn't pass water so why leave him out? Pretty soon I can see us playing Benteke and Kozak at home, playing hoofball and feeding off the scraps. The defence are too weak with little in the way of protection. Bennett, Moon and Lowton all paperweight. Lambert should be spending more time at the drawing board than Hitler did in 44-45.
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For me you should always build a team from the defence first. The lack of clean sheets should have rung alarm bells last season and rectified in the summer. It hasn't been and as we now concede in every game we obviously have to score at least two to win. We are going to miss our quota of one nil wins. Something else we are not doing is scoring the opening goal. It looks like we only come out to play when we're losing.
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The bog standard 4-4-2 at home won't do anything except make us play in exactly the same way we have for 10 years. There's no going back - as a club, if we want to play well and win at home, we have to do things we have never done before, and just fucking move on from the same old Britisher tactics that just couldn't be more screamingly inadequate.
The problem is I'm not sure we've got the quality to play the more modern, attractive approach. Were trying to play with a certain subtlety, but ending up looking even more unrefined than if we were playing the old school 4-4-2.
I'd love to see us to dominate home games and dictate the tempo of games but we don't have the quality in midfield. What we do have is solid players to put in the middle, and pace on the flanks. I think looking at our squad, if anyone is going to possess a bit of guile, its probably one of our forwards. Certainly Benteke, potentially Helenius.
Again though, not signing the "number 10" is going to cause us problems. The frustrating thing is, that given how Lambert apparently aspires to play, that sort of player is essential and he's not signed a single player of that ilk yet. Hes signed 4 six foot center forwards though.
I can only see us struggling if we continue setting up like we have been at home. There's no subtlety. Keep Gabby quiet and you're half way there. Keep Benteke isolated and we're buggered.
Sorry for the half-outburst, didn't mean to sound quite so aggressive. Been a long footballing week with the Ukraine stuff and then all this.
Well, first up, Lambo agrees with you. He said yesterday that he doesn't think we have the 'knowhow' to play slow football, so we need the tempo and the energy and all the rest of it. That's fine - but there's no reason why that has to equate to smashing it to Benteke front-to-back every time we get the ball. We should try things, sure, and not be concerned with achieving Barca-levels of possession, but we should have done better than we did yesterday, and we just hammered the ball long like idiots.
As for personnel: you're right, and Lambert knows it too - but it's his fault he spent £7m on Another Target Man which, however good he may be, looked infantile yesterday when he threw him on and lumped it to two big guys with no midfield in between. Shoot! magazine would have called it tactically immature. With a boggish 4-4-2 it would just be that all match, because we have no player to go in between the lines and make it a 4-2-3-1 - which is Lambert's fault, and which many of us were saying last week.
Now, he could actually play better stuff than we did yesterday with the players that we have, just by training them to do it. Players will revert under high-pressure to what they feel comfortable with, and if you train them to feel comfortable passing and moving then they'll revert to that. As it was, they reverted to bypassing the midfield hopelessly for long spells of the game yesterday. It was clueless.
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The performance in the last 20 minutes or so was like something you would see in a Sunday league game , what is the point of having four strikers on the pitch with no service to them at all- it really was piss poor management and repeated something he should have learnt from when he did it against bradford .
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Now, he could actually play better stuff than we did yesterday with the players that we have, just by training them to do it. Players will revert under high-pressure to what they feel comfortable with, and if you train them to feel comfortable passing and moving then they'll revert to that. As it was, they reverted to bypassing the midfield hopelessly for long spells of the game yesterday. It was clueless.
Agreed.
I'd be keen to see a 4-5-1 type approach, with a midfield that is more fluid - say, Westwood, Sylla, Delph, Tonev and Bacuna - and can quickly turn defensive possession into attack. And, yesterday we saw the impact of a pressing strategy - the Barcodes did that really well and gave us no time on the ball.
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It's a good idea that, Mister E. It would feel harsh to drop Gabby though - as bad as the miss was yesterday he has been one of our most incisive threats this season.
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A lot of it is tempo at home,we haven't had it for years.
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It's a good idea that, Mister E. It would feel harsh to drop Gabby though - as bad as the miss was yesterday he has been one of our most incisive threats this season.
The thing is we should have variation and be able to change our formation and system to adapt to certain situations - at the moment everyone knows how we play and teams know how to combat it - we must be able to shake things up and have a plan b and plan c which we are a equally comfortable with when plan a is not working.
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This is not a recent thing. In last 10 years we have only won 78 home games, lost 50 and drawn 62. Thats an average of 8 home wins a year and just 28 points a season. Just twice we have got to 10 wins. At least twice its cost us a really good go at the top 4.
I was going to say the same. We've been mediocre at home for the best part of ten years.
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I suspect more teams will also have us figured out when we play on their patch. I think we'll struggle to get a really solid run of away form again like we have done on occasions in the last few years.
If we don't sort out our home form, we'll be in trouble. I actually think resorting to a bog standard 4-4-2 might be the way to do it at home. Have Gabby and Tonev on either flank and perhaps have one of our front men dropping off slightly, either Benteke or Helenius. At least that way we can introduce a bit of width to our game and try and get crosses into the box for the big men, as well as help out our fullbacks defensively, because they're our weak link at the moment. I don't think our centerbacks have been all that bad. We have to resign ourselves to the fact that we're not technically proficient enough to play a possession game. In all honesty, the way to go about it, is the O Neill way. Play at a high tempo get the ball wide as much as we can and feed the two front men. It's not pretty but I'd rather be average at home than piss poor. Our away form will be good enough on the whole I suspect.
What with Albrighton still at the club, might he be a worthwhile option to slip in wide right? He works hard, he provides width. It's for want of a better option granted, but it's also surely his last season at the club to try and make the grade. If he got back to his form under Houllier, he'd be an asset, particularly with Lowton to overlap.
I'm not sure a 4-4-2 would work as Tonev aside, we don't really have any natural wide players. I personally think that part of the problem at home is that Gabby and Weimann don't have the ablity on the ball to create on a consistent basis in the final third and tend to switch off defensively leaving our full-backs exposed. Also switching to a 4-4-2 would mean that Westwood would have to be dropped as I don't think he has the athleticism to play in that formation. A midfield four of Bacuna, Sylla, Delph and Tonev may be worth a try with Gabby or Weimann partnering Benteke up front.
On another note, the Kozak signing is beginning to look a strange decision, as there are other areas of the side that clearly should have taken priority.
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We've been shit at home for far too long. When you think about great home seasons of the last 30 years, there are depressingly few.
This is the number of home wins each season, starting with last season.
5
4
8
8
7
10
7
6
8
9
11
8
8
8
10
9
11
11
6
8
13
And that covers the PL era, hopefully I didn't miss one. For a club that has regularly been top 6-8 during that time that is pretty shit.
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We've been shit at home for far too long. When you think about great home seasons of the last 30 years, there are depressingly few.
This is the number of home wins each season, starting with last season.
5
4
8
8
7
10
7
6
8
9
11
8
8
8
10
9
11
11
6
8
13
And that covers the PL era, hopefully I didn't miss one. For a club that has regularly been top 6-8 during that time that is pretty shit.
It's things like this which make me wonder if Dave W isn't right, and that the ground, the atmosphere and the club is just too big for any team we've had recently.
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I should add that the first 3 seasons (last 3 on the list) were from 21 home games.
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We've been shit at home for far too long. When you think about great home seasons of the last 30 years, there are depressingly few.
This is the number of home wins each season, starting with last season.
5
4
8
8
7
10
7
6
8
9
11
8
8
8
10
9
11
11
6
8
13
And that covers the PL era, hopefully I didn't miss one. For a club that has regularly been top 6-8 during that time that is pretty shit.
It's things like this which make me wonder if Dave W isn't right, and that the ground, the atmosphere and the club is just too big for any team we've had recently.
Without knowing how that compares with similarly inconsistent clubs it's difficult to know how bad those figures are. A cursory glance suggests 8 is about our average, add in half a dozen draws and that's thirty points from home games.
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How about if I compare with Everton? I can only be arsed to do one club ;D
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How about if I compare with Everton? I can only be arsed to do one club ;D
I'll just take you word for it that they are better.
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Everton
12
10
9
11
8
11
11
8
12
8
11
8
6
7
6
7
7
10
8
8
7
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I have to admit that I am beginning to think that the £800 spent on season tickets for my lad and I is returning very poor value- I have already said that if things do not improve then I would rather spend that amount of cash going to more away games as the enjoyment factor is increasingly higher.
I am getting so fed up of building my level of expectation throughout the working week only for Saturday night returning home in a piss poor mood. I am not expecting a Sunderland result every week but it would be good just to witness a run of comfortable 1 or 2 nil wins with us dominating possession- too much too ask perhaps?
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The last 2 seasons under Pubey when we finished 6th is where it really cost us. 08/09 only 5 clubs won less at home than us, even bottom club Albion won the same at home.
09/10 only 1 club in the top 13 won less, and relegated Burnley won 7 to our 8.
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Everton
12
10
9
11
8
11
11
8
12
8
11
8
6
7
6
7
7
10
8
8
7
So pretty similar up until the last few years.
Overall it does support the opening post though in that is where there is the biggest room for improvement.
My feeling is that it's defensively where there is the most urgent need for improvement. Even when we play badly we make chances but our inability to keep clean sheets means that we can't get away with the attacking side of our game being below par.
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It's things like this which make me wonder if Dave W isn't right, and that the ground, the atmosphere and the club is just too big for any team we've had recently.
To carry on from that, when was the last time Manchester United, Liverpool, Spurs or Arsenal (the biggest four proper clubs) had an off-day at Villa Park? There's definitely something about the ground that brings out the best in the opposition.
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It's things like this which make me wonder if Dave W isn't right, and that the ground, the atmosphere and the club is just too big for any team we've had recently.
To carry on from that, when was the last time Manchester United, Liverpool, Spurs or Arsenal (the biggest four proper clubs) had an off-day at Villa Park? There's definitely something about the ground that brings out the best in the opposition.
Everton will disagree that. Both for off days and being less of a proper club than Spurs.
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I think that assuming we are alright this season, the signings we make in the summer have to for the most part be obvious improvements on what we already have.
Which is pretty similar to what was said last season.
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Lots of posts I agree with here. The trend is a lack of creativity and potentially a lack of confidence and personality at times.
I don't think a change to 442 would help. We'd get more width, but I don't think we've got creative wide players in the way we did with Downing and Young. Gabby and Weimann are clearly best running onto the ball than with the ball at their feet. And we don't really have a central midfielder - beyond Westwood potentially - who can pick a pass through a team. The fullbacks should help to provide the width but if you don't pass it well enough for long enough you won't give them the chance to get forward into space.
Bacuna looks similar - lots of energy but not great passing technique. Tonev and Helenius potentially more interesting, but I wonder if they're ready.
Tonev clearly has ability, but I have to say he looks like he could be quite a head down, frustrating player. For someone who shoots as much as he does, to have never got more than 5 goals in a season suggests there's a lot going way over the bar.
helenius behind Benteke could be more interesting. But it's a bit step up for him. And it leaves the midfield looking weaker, and it looks weak at times already.
Worth noting however that most games I've seen this season haven't exactly been festivals of creative football. So we're not alone.
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It's also worth remembering that after THAT 3-0 win Spurs had at the beginning of 86/87 they won something like one of the next 20 odd games at VP. And only about 4 in total since 86/87.
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It's also worth remembering that after THAT 3-0 win Spurs had at the beginning of 86/87 they won something like one of the next 20 odd games at VP. And only about 4 in total since 86/87.
And in the last few years they've hardly broken sweat. The top teams seem to save their best form for us.
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Our home form has been unacceptable since 1996. I am therefore surprised that still neatly 40k turn up.
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Spurs had a shocking record against us when I was growing up, but they were generally a bottom half team. Role reversal in every way since then.
I'd argue Man U have had a couple of bad off-days in the last couple of years. It's just that they lasted for 60 minutes and then the inevitable happened.
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It's also worth remembering that after THAT 3-0 win Spurs had at the beginning of 86/87 they won something like one of the next 20 odd games at VP. And only about 4 in total since 86/87.
And in the last few years they've hardly broken sweat. The top teams seem to save their best form for us.
That game where they pissed around totally outplaying us with 10 men was really embarrassing - like a training exercise .
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It's also worth remembering that after THAT 3-0 win Spurs had at the beginning of 86/87 they won something like one of the next 20 odd games at VP. And only about 4 in total since 86/87.
And in the last few years they've hardly broken sweat. The top teams seem to save their best form for us.
Last season is the only stroll I can think of for Spurs since 86/87. The other 3 (I think) wins they've managed in that time have all been by one. We've won a lot more at WHL in that time.
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It's also worth remembering that after THAT 3-0 win Spurs had at the beginning of 86/87 they won something like one of the next 20 odd games at VP. And only about 4 in total since 86/87.
And in the last few years they've hardly broken sweat. The top teams seem to save their best form for us.
Last season is the only stroll I can think of for Spurs since 86/87. The other 3 (I think) wins they've managed in that time have all been by one. We've won a lot more at WHL in that time.
Their win in 2010-11 was easy enough, with us making it look a bit better with a late goal. Take Spurs out of the equation, then, and the fact remains that the consistently best teams always play well at Villa.
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all these stats & facts is all bollocks simple truth we need a new back four
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all these stats & facts is all bollocks simple truth we need a new back four
Our Midfield does not look that clever either.
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Our home form was our Achilles' heel under MON, it's true. And we were no great shakes at VP prior to that (we were generally hard to beat, mind).
But for the past few years it's been brutally bad. 2011/12 was the worst in our history (or close to it) as far as total wins were concerned, and PL only managed one more victory than that lame effort.
Indifferent/ underwhelming home form as per the O'Neill, O'Leary, Gregory era would actually be welcome now, that's how pish we've been in recent years.
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all these stats & facts is all bollocks simple truth we need a new back four
Our Midfield does not look that clever either.
A lot of teams can get their noses in front and then be reasonably adept at closing the game out under prolonged periods of pressure. If we went one up early in the game how long would you predict it would be before Brad is picking the ball out of the net? 5 mins? 10 mins? Our powderpuff defence and midfield needs organising, refreshing and some flaming man-up pills.
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How about we pioneer the initiative of two managers? I'll go for Lambert away and Gregory home.
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We are desperately short of an attacking midfielder who can unlock defences, like Ben Arfa. It's painfully obvious and must be addressed.
Too late now as the window is shut but its been a priority for a long time and one that should have been addressed rather than another striker.
We are desperately short of an attacking midfielder who can unlock defences, like Ben Arfa. It's painfully obvious and must be addressed.
Too late now as the window is shut but its been a priority for a long time and one that should have been addressed rather than another striker.
still cant believe this . oh well , at least Charlie will be fit sometime at christmas ;( Im sure he will unlock the opposition at home * grabs second bottle of whisky *
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I'm just wondering, and I believe it's been pondered before, but is the modern Premier League game and the way the majority of teams set up, actually suited to playing away? A lot of teams are actually more effective counter attacking. I would say there's very few genuine fortresses left in the league. Arsenal and Spurs (more so in the Bale era probably) I would suggest were rock solid home form away from being title chasers in recent years. And perhaps this year too.
Utd nowadays are more effective as a counter attacking unit too. Whether stats back it up I don't know, but very few grounds have an air of the impenetrable any more. Mourinho at the Bridge springs to mind as being one of those few.
It's probably not just us struggling to make their home patch a fortress. That said though, the last few years have been utter dire. I mean I know we pick out numbers under O Neill. 8, 9 home wins a season and figure it's not enough. But I'd snatch the arm off any man offering us 8 home wins this season. At the very least, we need to cut out so many defeats. 2 out of our first 2 is woeful, and sets a horrible tone. We shouldn't be losing any more than 5 at home in the league, but I can't see us able to do that.
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Just a cursory check of last seasons table, and from 7th down, all the home records were average at best. Spurs and Arsenal both dropped points in 8 home games a piece, and would expect to do better.
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But I think only we picked up more points away than at home - though even that was marginal
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We're a soft touch. I fell for us after that game at Arsenal. I'm starting to change my mind now.
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Maybe we need to play players in their proper positions.
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This is not a recent thing. In last 10 years we have only won 78 home games, lost 50 and drawn 62. Thats an average of 8 home wins a year and just 28 points a season. Just twice we have got to 10 wins. At least twice its cost us a really good go at the top 4.
I was going to say the same. We've been mediocre at home for the best part of ten years.
Pretty much what I was goin to say as well, home form is hopeless. One of the reasons I packed my season ticket in, it can be a right chore at times. Formation is wrong for me, no good playing 3 strikers with 3 defence minded players plus Weimann is out of form for me.
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Teams know exactly how to play us at home. Getting the first goal is so crucial. If we don't get it teams just sit and leave no space to play in. With most sides now playing 1 up front it's only going to get worse. Watching most premier league games at the moment is like pulling teeth.
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The teams in the top six have excellent home form. We have a lot to do, a lot.
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First time to log in since yesterday. I remember posting before that the club should do an internal inquest into why we have become such a soft touch at Villa Park. Our home record has been pathetic for too long.
It's a self fulfilling thing too because other teams come to Villa Park thinking 'this lot are shite at home we can win'.
It is really screwing us over as a club.
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To carry on from that, when was the last time Manchester United, Liverpool, Spurs or Arsenal (the biggest four proper clubs) had an off-day at Villa Park? There's definitely something about the ground that brings out the best in the opposition.
I said something similar on another thread pre-season Dave. Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal absolutely adore coming to Villa Park and between them have lost about once in the past 45 games. Man City and Spurs are rapidly joining them in that zone and Chelsea are starting enjoy Villa Park too.
I think we are in danger of becoming everybody's favourite away ground - a Midlands version of Fulham.
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To carry on from that, when was the last time Manchester United, Liverpool, Spurs or Arsenal (the biggest four proper clubs) had an off-day at Villa Park? There's definitely something about the ground that brings out the best in the opposition.
I said something similar on another thread pre-season Dave. Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal absolutely adore coming to Villa Park and between them have lost about once in the past 45 games. Man City and Spurs are rapidly joining them in that zone and Chelsea are starting enjoy Villa Park too.
I think we are in danger of becoming everybody's favourite away ground - a Midlands version of Fulham.
Fulham have a good record at home though (I think).
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It's players that can play the killer pass or beat their man that we seem to lack.
Home teams need to be able to put the opposition under sustained pressure: this requires penetration through incisive passing and / or tricksy wingers / inside forwards.
We currently have some really good players, but not necessarily those that will create the breakthrough chances.
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Maybe we lack the funds to buy a top quality midfielder? Need to find a midfield version of Benteke
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Luckily I'm away for the Ci$y game so have viagog'd out seats,
£95 notes thanks very much and a stress free day.
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It's things like this which make me wonder if Dave W isn't right, and that the ground, the atmosphere and the club is just too big for any team we've had recently.
To carry on from that, when was the last time Manchester United, Liverpool, Spurs or Arsenal (the biggest four proper clubs) had an off-day at Villa Park? There's definitely something about the ground that brings out the best in the opposition.
But Villa Park even before the post-Taylor report era was always a top class ground. Since redevelopment it has remained one of the finest stadiums in world football as you point out. Why is it that it inspires the opposition and not our own teams? The expectation seems to bring out the worst in our own players and inspires the opposition?
Does that imply VP needs to be 'uglier'? We're a bit big to be going down that route.
You'd hope we were building a team worthy of Villa Park. Sadly, results like Saturday show we have a long way to go. Question is, what to do in the meantime because it is abysmal home form has been like a dead weight around us for far too long. It'll affect attendances again too and the overall 'bad mood' I can always detect when I have visited Villa Park since about 2009.
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Given that most teams know they'll score at VP I think its becoming psychological. We simply can't defend so the pressure automatically gets put on us, and we can't handle it. It's almost like every game is a shit-or-bust affair where we have to score twice to win. And more often or not, we don't.
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Given that most teams know they'll score at VP I think its becoming psychological. We simply can't defend so the pressure automatically gets put on us, and we can't handle it. It's almost like every game is a shit-or-bust affair where we have to score twice to win. And more often or not, we don't.
I do think we need two wide players helping out our fullbacks. Defending isn't the strong point of either fullback. When they're facing pace, or guile, without any help, they get torn apart. Ben Arfa destroyed Luna yesterday for most of the game and when he wasn't, he was on the other flank pillocking Lowton.
I'd be tempted next home game to line up a little like this:
---------------Guzan-----------------
Lowton--Vlaar----Clark/Okore..Luna
Bacuna---Delph-----Sylla-----Gabby
----------------Benteke---------------
-------------Kozak--------------------
This way we have a number 9. We get Benteke able to come off and get involved in the game a bit more. He's also able then to run at defenders. The alternative would be to keep Benteke in the 9 position and play Helenius off him.
I do think we desperately need to give the fullys a bit more cover defensively for when we get broken on. Bacuna, Sylla and Delph would provide a lot of energy and cover a lot of ground, so if needs be we can push Gabby up as more of a wing forward.
Away from home the 4-3-3 works better as we sit deeper and the fullbacks don't get quite as isolated.
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I would have Bennett and Luna down the left, with a more narrow 3 in the centre, one, drifting right to support Lowton but not holding position in the way a winger would so as not to give away 3 bodies centrally. Then Gabby behind Benteke.
We need genuine width on one side, and our best wide player in terms of delivery is Bennett, much maligned, but he could be a quality attacking wide player IMO. Albrighton having confidence and form would help too! Centre of midfield needs to house Sylla, Westwood and Delph to make sure we are not over - run, Gabby playing more in to out than out to in, and give Bennett a go down the left. Weimann has been poor for a long time, Sunderland home the exception rather than the rule.
We also terribly miss NZogbia at home, as he commits people and makes things happen. When fit, I hope Lambert realises this.
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We are a sot touch at Villa Park and i don't know why but even when the supporters are singing it doesn't sound that loud on the tele, is their an accoustic problem?
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I would have Bennett and Luna down the left, with a more narrow 3 in the centre, one, drifting right to support Lowton but not holding position in the way a winger would so as not to give away 3 bodies centrally. Then Gabby behind Benteke.
We need genuine width on one side, and our best wide player in terms of delivery is Bennett, much maligned, but he could be a quality attacking wide player IMO. Albrighton having confidence and form would help too! Centre of midfield needs to house Sylla, Westwood and Delph to make sure we are not over - run, Gabby playing more in to out than out to in, and give Bennett a go down the left. Weimann has been poor for a long time, Sunderland home the exception rather than the rule.
We also terribly miss NZogbia at home, as he commits people and makes things happen. When fit, I hope Lambert realises this.
I'd pretty much written N'Zogbia off, but to be honest we do miss that quality and that kind of unpredictability in midfield. We don't really have any players who are really good at running with the ball at their feet. Or someone you could see just skinning someone and rifling in a 20 yarder. N'Zogbia could do that. He's technically good and the ball sticks to his feet when hes running with it. That is of course, when he's on it.
There-in also lies the problem, and also why he's in the bombers, there's not enough consistency.
We watched on saturday with a degree of jealousy over Ben Arfa. N'Zogbia has that sort of ability when he's on it.
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The defence is still awful and without some clean sheets, it is too much to expect us to always score more then the opposition.
There is also a need to provide more help for Benteke on goal scoring, as Newcastle had worked out how to stifle him except at set pieces. The other players need to chip in more, otherwise we'll be in the bottom 6 or worse for most of the season.
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I would have Bennett and Luna down the left, with a more narrow 3 in the centre, one, drifting right to support Lowton but not holding position in the way a winger would so as not to give away 3 bodies centrally. Then Gabby behind Benteke.
We need genuine width on one side, and our best wide player in terms of delivery is Bennett, much maligned, but he could be a quality attacking wide player IMO. Albrighton having confidence and form would help too! Centre of midfield needs to house Sylla, Westwood and Delph to make sure we are not over - run, Gabby playing more in to out than out to in, and give Bennett a go down the left. Weimann has been poor for a long time, Sunderland home the exception rather than the rule.
We also terribly miss NZogbia at home, as he commits people and makes things happen. When fit, I hope Lambert realises this.
I'd pretty much written N'Zogbia off, but to be honest we do miss that quality and that kind of unpredictability in midfield. We don't really have any players who are really good at running with the ball at their feet. Or someone you could see just skinning someone and rifling in a 20 yarder. N'Zogbia could do that. He's technically good and the ball sticks to his feet when hes running with it. That is of course, when he's on it.
There-in also lies the problem, and also why he's in the bombers, there's not enough consistency.
We watched on saturday with a degree of jealousy over Ben Arfa. N'Zogbia has that sort of ability when he's on it.
N'Zogbia has got the ability but so far we've seen precious little of it. Yes, he can run with the ball but nine times out of ten, he just runs into other players and loses possession. I can't think of too many goals he's set up since he's been here. Also, he's not in the bomb squad, he's injured.
As for the home form, i can't quite put my finger on why it's so poor, it's a bit of a mystery. We could try altering the formation i suppose. Maybe a good win over a top side down here could be what kicks it off again. I think a lot of people were expecting us to do that against a Suarez-less Liverpool team and it did'nt happen. It needs to change soon though because as good as we are on the road, we can't rely on the away form.
Oh and a start would be to get rid of that horrible Fatboy Slim song they run out to.
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The defence is still awful and without some clean sheets, it is too much to expect us to always score more then the opposition.
There is also a need to provide more help for Benteke on goal scoring, as Newcastle had worked out how to stifle him except at set pieces. The other players need to chip in more, otherwise we'll be in the bottom 6 or worse for most of the season.
How depressing. When we thought we had turned the corner.
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Early days. If Lambert employs the same tactics in our next home game against easily beatable opposition then I'll start to get worried.
What is really mystifying is why we never seem to get started until 30 minutes in. Lambert always gets the team visibly fired up after half time, you'd think he could do that before the game as well.
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If you think about it the only players in the first team our posters have no complaints about are Guzan,Delph and Benteke.Thats just three out of eleven and that is not encouraging in any way at all.
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Our next two home games are Man City and .... Everton I believe? Have we ever lost all four opening home games? I cant recall it but the possibility is there. The worst start in general I ever remember was the season after we signed Collymore, four straight defeats.
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I think there's a few reasons why away teams and their supporters enjoy coming to VP.
- It's in the middle of the country and easy to get to, therefore a lot of clubs probably bring an above-average following (whereas clubs probably bring below average numbers to Stadium of Light, St James' etc).
- They get a decent allocation, right alongside the pitch, so are able to really make themselves heard (unlike away fans at say, St James' or OT).
- It's not that intimidating. Yes, we can make a decent noise when we want to, but you wouldn't say it was a horrible place to visit with the home fans right on top of you (like say Upton Park, or Elland Road can be).
- The facilities are nice so make for a more pleasant visit than somewhere like Goodison or The Sty.
- Surely there's now a phsycological effect - As discussed, our record Vs Man U, Arsenal, Liverpool, is completely embarrassing. Maybe that now plays on our minds, whilst increasing their confidence by an extra 10% when they come here.
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Maybe we should try sticking the away fans high up in the upper tier of the Trinity Road Stand?
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Our next two home games are Man City and .... Everton I believe? Have we ever lost all four opening home games? I cant recall it but the possibility is there. The worst start in general I ever remember was the season after we signed Collymore, four straight defeats.
We've got Tottenham before Everton which on paper is a harder game. Maybe Man City and Tottenham will suit us though as it might be more like an away game. Or we could get spanked, we must have an awful record against Tottenham these past few years.
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Or we could get spanked, we must have an awful record against Tottenham these past few years.
Only beaten them twice (one home, one away) since 2004
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Maybe we should try sticking the away fans high up in the upper tier of the Trinity Road Stand?
Far too good for 'em. Might put-off our posh contingent too and they're pitching-in with Stephen Ireland's NI costs.
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I think we're kidding ourselves that it's somehow the ground's fault. It's the team.
The players we've attracted in the last ten years or so have been more of the solid huff-and-puff variety than those with guile and creativity. Players who are more suited to a counter-attacking, kick and rush game that's often more effective away from home. We just haven't consistently had the players or the tactical flexibility to break down teams at home. Sometimes it only needs one Paul Merson type to split a defence. The last player we had of that calibre was Paul Merson.
And is it really surprising that the top four teams regularly give us a beating at home? They're top four for a reason. They have better players than us, and quite often better managers. Which is why they usually give us a beating away as well.
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I asked a Norwich fan (who generally knows his stuff) on another forum about Lambert's selections and tactics and whatnot and here's what he had to say:
Me:
Does he have form for sticking rigidly to a certain formation/tactic even when its ineffective?
Villa look great away from home because we're perfectly suited for counterattacking, trying to do the same thing at home doesn't work (see every game Villa have played at home in the last 6 seasons). Also when things aren't working he sticks on another target man and goes 4-2-4, which would be fine if there was some width, but if 4 central strikers stood still on the edge of the box while the CBs lump the ball to them didn't work against Bradford or Millwall, it isnt going to work against Newcastle.
Norwich guy:
Tbh he has form for doing the exact opposite of that, but it took time.
First season he stuck with the diamond as it got the best out of Hoolahan, then the Championship season he added a similar counter attacking 4-2-3-1 to what Villa are currently using, while occasionally doing the whole 'throw on all the strikers' thing you mention, then in our first Prem season he went mental and started fielding different line ups and formations every game, I've never seen anything like it before or since.
He also mentioned the 'Lambert doesnt do clean sheets' thing (Norwich only managed 2? in the league their first season up)
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Maybe we should try sticking the away fans high up in the upper tier of the Trinity Road Stand?
Far too good for 'em. Might put-off our posh contingent too and they're pitching-in with Stephen Ireland's NI costs.
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Having them in an upper tier only location would at least isolate them from their players. I see your point with Trinity Upper. Maybe give them half the North Upper or half the Witton Upper?
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Technically it's my ex girlfriends fault. We split a fortnight after we beat Norwich at home 3-2 in November 2011. Ever since I've been single, our home form has been cursed by her.
If someone can find me a petite blonde with big tits, a gorgeous face, cracking arse that doesnt mind me going home and away every week I can assure you we will start winning games again!
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Maybe we should try sticking the away fans high up in the upper tier of the Trinity Road Stand?
Far too good for 'em. Might put-off our posh contingent too and they're pitching-in with Stephen Ireland's NI costs.
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Having them in an upper tier only location would at least isolate them from their players. I see your point with Trinity Upper. Maybe give them half the North Upper or half the Witton Upper?
Whilst we're on this point, I'm getting pretty pissed off at the number of times away supporters manage to scale the barriers and onto the touchline (or even the pitch) to celebrate goals.
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Maybe we should try sticking the away fans high up in the upper tier of the Trinity Road Stand?
How do you get them in and out of the ground?
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First time to log in since yesterday. I remember posting before that the club should do an internal inquest into why we have become such a soft touch at Villa Park. Our home record has been pathetic for too long.
It's a self fulfilling thing too because other teams come to Villa Park thinking 'this lot are shite at home we can win'.
It is really screwing us over as a club.
exactly . any one would be confident playing Villa . We are crap at home
well Ive just heard on MOTD2 . Man City are awful and all over the place . So who is the best team to play next ? ;(
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Maybe we should try sticking the away fans high up in the upper tier of the Trinity Road Stand?
How do you get them in and out of the ground?
Stick em' in the upper Witton only next to the Holte. Then we have an atmosphere.
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I don't think where the away fans are located has much to do with it. Under O'Neill we were better set up to hit teams on the counter and were therefore better away. The last 3 seasons we've been crap. This season we thought the former might be the issue but it's looking unfortunately like the latter may be the case again.
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Maybe we should try sticking the away fans high up in the upper tier of the Trinity Road Stand?
How do you get them in and out of the ground?
Stick em' in the upper Witton only next to the Holte. Then we have an atmosphere.
I repeat - how do you get them in and out, and football is about what happens on the pitch, not some sort of contrived 'atmosphere' .
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The thought of away fans walking down Witton Lane after the game is not a good one.
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As I said on the post match thread, you can't plan for the future future without dealing with the present. A played with experience like Barry would have massively improved our team.
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Maybe we should try sticking the away fans high up in the upper tier of the Trinity Road Stand?
How do you get them in and out of the ground?
Stick em' in the upper Witton only next to the Holte. Then we have an atmosphere.
I repeat - how do you get them in and out, and football is about what happens on the pitch, not some sort of contrived 'atmosphere' .
You park the coaches on the Witton Lane after the game, you use the metal hoardings the WMP currently use to block them off from moving up to the Holte end if the circumstances dictate.
You then don't have your own fans right in front of you after you've stepped out of your Trinity Road changing room 5 star luxury. You have them tucked away in a corner, in the upper tier, next to a stand that is drowning them out.
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Maybe we should try sticking the away fans high up in the upper tier of the Trinity Road Stand?
How do you get them in and out of the ground?
Stick em' in the upper Witton only next to the Holte. Then we have an atmosphere.
I repeat - how do you get them in and out, and football is about what happens on the pitch, not some sort of contrived 'atmosphere' .
You park the coaches on the Witton Lane after the game, you use the metal hoardings the WMP currently use to block them off from moving up to the Holte end if the circumstances dictate.
You then don't have your own fans right in front of you after you've stepped out of your Trinity Road changing room 5 star luxury. You have them tucked away in a corner, in the upper tier, next to a stand that is drowning them out.
How do our supporters in Witton Lane get out? You'll be inconveniencing about 20,000 people just so that a few score numpties can point and shout at each other. If that's atmosphere I think I'd rather do without.
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I'd consider, at certain grounds, holding away fans in for 10 or 15 minutes after the final whistle.
It's not ideal but also not a massive inconvenience adding that bit of time to a journey home of X hours. VP is one i'd do it simply because you have 3 stands of Villa heading the same way as the away fans.
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How about we pioneer the initiative of two managers? I'll go for Lambert away and Gregory home.
how about gregory home & away
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Maybe we should try sticking the away fans high up in the upper tier of the Trinity Road Stand?
How do you get them in and out of the ground?
Stick em' in the upper Witton only next to the Holte. Then we have an atmosphere.
I repeat - how do you get them in and out, and football is about what happens on the pitch, not some sort of contrived 'atmosphere' .
You park the coaches on the Witton Lane after the game, you use the metal hoardings the WMP currently use to block them off from moving up to the Holte end if the circumstances dictate.
You then don't have your own fans right in front of you after you've stepped out of your Trinity Road changing room 5 star luxury. You have them tucked away in a corner, in the upper tier, next to a stand that is drowning them out.
What about fans in the Holte who walk down Witton Lane to get to Witton Station?
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Fans in the Witton Lane exit as normal.
How many games was there actually any sort of pavement dancing in last season? One, this being against the Albion?
I really don't see the difference between having fans at the top of the Witton Lane as opposed to them being at the bottom as they are now. In the vast majority of cases they will exit as normal and mingle with Villa fans on the lower end of the Witton lane heading towards the station. Games where there is a risk, the police split Witton Lane in half anyway. On the off chance that we play the Noses again this century, the 30 coaches they all arrive on can be used as a physical barrier if needs be.
People point at each other at games and give it the big one; they probably wouldn't if they could actually get at each other. Whatever, it happens, but that's not the issue. Completely neutralising the away fans making any noise, by putting them next to the Holte, may give us an extra percentile. Breaking all the light bulbs in the away dressing room, hiding some rotten fish in the ceiling space, hypnotherapy on our players all might be necessary too.
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Fans in the Witton Lane exit as normal.
How many games was there actually any sort of pavement dancing in last season? One, this being against the Albion?
I really don't see the difference between having fans at the top of the Witton Lane as opposed to them being at the bottom as they are now. In the vast majority of cases they will exit as normal and mingle with Villa fans on the lower end of the Witton lane heading towards the station. Games where there is a risk, the police split Witton Lane in half anyway. On the off chance that we play the Noses again this century, the 30 coaches they all arrive on can be used as a physical barrier if needs be.
People point at each other at games and give it the big one; they probably wouldn't if they could actually get at each other. Whatever, it happens, but that's not the issue. Completely neutralising the away fans making any noise, by putting them next to the Holte, may give us an extra percentile. Breaking all the light bulbs in the away dressing room, hiding some rotten fish in the ceiling space, hypnotherapy on our players all might be necessary too.
Yes, I'm sure coach companies would love their multi-million pound glass-covered fleets being used as barriers - presumably parked nose to tail across the road to prevent anyone from going round them.
One minute you're saying there would be a need for metal barriers, the next you're saying everything would be fine. I've got a great idea - we leave things how they are now, how they've been proved to work for years for the benefit of all concerned and in order to maximise safety and don't try to change the entire configuration of the ground just for some spurious increase in atmosphere.
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Another couple of things to consider is there's not a great deal of room when you walk down Witton Lane after the game as it is and it would be worse with a line of possibly up to ten coaches parked down there. Also, to me it increases the risk of trouble if you got supporters sitting in coaches with rival fans walking past. A lot of away grounds now have coach parks or the coaches are parked away from the ground. Besides, i'm not sure the police would go for it anyway.
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Why is it suprious? You've got a couple thousand away fans drowning out a few hundred people in the North. There is nothing superious about it. Having the away fans by the Holte would improve the atmosphere. The away fans would hear the Holte and Holte would hear the away fans, something you don't get at the moment.
You're focussing on rare examples of when the risk increases. WMP have used metal barriers at the Molineux and Villa Park before to usher fans in certain directions. If needs be WMP can replicate what they do with the vans outside the away end heading to the Coventry Road; but that is for the one risk game we have a season. The rest of the time there are no real issues.
If you look at Goodison, White Hart Lane, Old Trafford etc, then you alight with the home fans, I don't see why mixing would be an issue.
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Why is it suprious? You've got a couple thousand away fans drowning out a few hundred people in the North. There is nothing superious about it. Having the away fans by the Holte would improve the atmosphere. The away fans would hear the Holte and Holte would hear the away fans, something you don't get at the moment.
You're focussing on rare examples of when the risk increases. WMP have used metal barriers at the Molineux and Villa Park before to usher fans in certain directions. If needs be WMP can replicate what they do with the vans outside the away end heading to the Coventry Road; but that is for the one risk game we have a season. The rest of the time there are no real issues.
If you look at Goodison, White Hart Lane, Old Trafford etc, then you alight with the home fans, I don't see why mixing would be an issue.
How is it going to improve atmosphere? Do you really think that people at football matches need to see the opposition supporters in order to enjoy themselves? It's adding unnecessary problems, extra expense and inconvenience for what you think is a bright idea without thinking of the drawbacks.
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A winning home side will give us all the atmosphere we need.
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In order for us to improve at home or at least give ourselves a chance I would;
1. Spend some decent money from the £60m received from this seasons TV deal.
2. Spend at least s portion of that money on experienced Premier League players - say Gareth Barry.
3. Stop buying unproven young (particularly overseas) players for the moment at least.
4. Instead of getting one area of the team right (say the forward line) and leaving two areas of the team wrong (the defence and creative midfield), how about getting all three right at once?
5. Think of a plan b, when the inevitable happens and we go 1-0 down and can no longer simply play on the counter attack.
6. Stop saying stock phrases like 'I thought we were excellent' (when clearly we were not) and 'We pick ourselves up and go again on Monday.'
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I don't like the away grounds where the more boisterous home fans are allowed to congregate as close as possible to the away fans. It inevitably leads to hundreds of idiots trading 'banter'* throughout the game rather than actually watching the football and getting behind the teams. It's atmosphere of a sort, but of a shit sort.
* for 'banter' read wanker signs, threatening gestures, coins etc
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Why is it suprious? You've got a couple thousand away fans drowning out a few hundred people in the North. There is nothing superious about it. Having the away fans by the Holte would improve the atmosphere. The away fans would hear the Holte and Holte would hear the away fans, something you don't get at the moment.
You're focussing on rare examples of when the risk increases. WMP have used metal barriers at the Molineux and Villa Park before to usher fans in certain directions. If needs be WMP can replicate what they do with the vans outside the away end heading to the Coventry Road; but that is for the one risk game we have a season. The rest of the time there are no real issues.
If you look at Goodison, White Hart Lane, Old Trafford etc, then you alight with the home fans, I don't see why mixing would be an issue.
How is it going to improve atmosphere? Do you really think that people at football matches need to see the opposition supporters in order to enjoy themselves? It's adding unnecessary problems, extra expense and inconvenience for what you think is a bright idea without thinking of the drawbacks.
Yes, I genuinely think a proper to and throw between fans makes for a better atmosphere. Fans in the Holte cannot hear the away fans and vice-versa, so you're left to be inspired with what is on the pitch.
I don't understand why away fans are able to walk out of Stamford Bridge, straight into the home fans, walk for what must be a few hundred yards, around a corner (all the while with the home fans) to the area of road where the coaches are parked. It must be the same length of walking from the top of the Witton down to the bottom where the coach park is located.
Goodison, you leave the ground, walk up to the main road, cross the main road, walk around a corner and then a few hundred yards by the park before you get to the coaches. At Anfield, you walk a fair distance with home fans. At Old Trafford it is the same, whether you've come on the coach or are heading into town to catch the train. There are lots of examples of fans mingling without an issue, why would moving the away fans create one at Villa Park?
I fail to see why it would create a big problem and I think the atmosphere would improve as a consequence.
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A winning home side will give us all the atmosphere we need.
This.
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God forbid that you should have to take note of what happens on the pitch and anyone who can't hear the other end of the ground should get their ears tested.
At the moment away supporters are situated where they can get to their transport most conveniently, as they are everywhere else. If you want to go to all the trouble explained above so that, as also explained above, a few hundred idiots can enjoy their afternoon then good luck to you.
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One way to shut the away fans up would be to play some decent football at home and win some games. We wouldn't be seeing opposition fans running on the pitch and having a jolly time at our expense then.
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God forbid that you should have to take note of what happens on the pitch and anyone who can't hear the other end of the ground should get their ears tested.
At the moment away supporters are situated where they can get to their transport most conveniently, as they are everywhere else. If you want to go to all the trouble explained above so that, as also explained above, a few hundred idiots can enjoy their afternoon then good luck to you.
My argument is that the atmosphere would improve by having the two areas of the ground who create it sat by one another. I am not talking about creating a playground for idiots who don't want to watch the game and I don't like your insinuation that I am some moron who ignores what happens on the pitch because I am at the game for the “bants”.
I don’t personally see why singing and watching the game are mutually exclusive, I know that you don’t either, but its worth saying in any case given the way you’re trying to frame my argument.
Convenience for away fans on coaches is a negative towards what I am suggesting, but I don’t think it makes the idea unworkable, by having fans walk less than a hundred yards further to their coach. But then you’re talking about the convenience of the minority of the away fans anyway.
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It would be absolute carnage having away fans next to the Holte. No thanks. Lets get a decent team at home. That'll keep the away fans quiet
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The Lower North has as much atmosphere at The Holte these days. Atmosphere wise I actually prefer the LN now.
As for moving away fans nearer the Holte, considering how away fans and R1 "create atmosphere" it is a ridiculous idea. I'm sorry but i'm out.
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It would be absolute carnage having away fans next to the Holte.
Why?
Does that particular corner of the Witton Lane have some sort of tear in the space time continuum that leads people back into the 1980s?
Why do we have no trouble leaving other grounds next to the main end, mixing, mingling, but suddenly think that we’ll have a war-zone on our hands if away fans go near the Holte? Are our trouble makers really that lazy that they cannot be bothered to walk 80/90 yards down the Witton Lane to have a go at away fans?
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I can remember when some bright spark thought putting the away fans in the Holte was a good idea
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I can remember when some bright spark thought putting the away fans in the Holte was a good idea
That was Doug wasn't it? Give away fans half the Holte, genius. I've been told by people who were there that after they put the fence up it was torn down again next match and the idea was quietly forgotten.
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With the news about Okore, there can be no messing about this year we need a centre half on loan in January. We also desperately need a creative midfielder.
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Just to clarify, when I made my comment about putting away fans in the Trinity I meant in the corner near the north stand high up away from the pitch so that they are further away from their own players.
My comment was inspired by the knowledge that other clubs seem to stick the away fans high up in the clouds (say Newcastle for eg), and that this might help towards making the ground a less enjoyable place for other clubs to come and spank us on our own hallowed turf.
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On this subject I never did understand why some fans will spend the majority of the match gesturing to opposition fans, with their arms out, safe in the knowledge they are protected by barriers. Do they not want to watch the match?
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On this subject I never did understand why some fans will spend the majority of the match gesturing to opposition fans, with their arms out, safe in the knowledge they are protected by barriers. Do they not want to watch the match?
It puzzles me aswell. Neanderthal instincts. Cavefans.
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Fans in the Witton Lane exit as normal.
How many games was there actually any sort of pavement dancing in last season? One, this being against the Albion?
I really don't see the difference between having fans at the top of the Witton Lane as opposed to them being at the bottom as they are now. In the vast majority of cases they will exit as normal and mingle with Villa fans on the lower end of the Witton lane heading towards the station. Games where there is a risk, the police split Witton Lane in half anyway. On the off chance that we play the Noses again this century, the 30 coaches they all arrive on can be used as a physical barrier if needs be.
People point at each other at games and give it the big one; they probably wouldn't if they could actually get at each other. Whatever, it happens, but that's not the issue. Completely neutralising the away fans making any noise, by putting them next to the Holte, may give us an extra percentile. Breaking all the light bulbs in the away dressing room, hiding some rotten fish in the ceiling space, hypnotherapy on our players all might be necessary too.
Yes, I'm sure coach companies would love their multi-million pound glass-covered fleets being used as barriers - presumably parked nose to tail across the road to prevent anyone from going round them.
One minute you're saying there would be a need for metal barriers, the next you're saying everything would be fine. I've got a great idea - we leave things how they are now, how they've been proved to work for years for the benefit of all concerned and in order to maximise safety and don't try to change the entire configuration of the ground just for some spurious increase in atmosphere.
And buy some better players.
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I can remember when some bright spark thought putting the away fans in the Holte was a good idea
That was Doug wasn't it? Give away fans half the Holte, genius. I've been told by people who were there that after they put the fence up it was torn down again next match and the idea was quietly forgotten.
If I remember correctly, the fences had been set up down the centre of the Holte.
The 1st most fans knew about it was when they came into the ground and could not cross the centre.
I think it was a midweek game against Man City.
They had been put in and I guess it was in anticipation of the policy to come.
The problem for Doug and his plan was that the concrete had not set properly.
"The Holte did not like it and rose up above it, they pulled down the fences and tossed them away"
sorry about the plagiarism.
Another reason then for me to believe that Doug had no clue about the sprit of Aston Villa !!
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I can remember when some bright spark thought putting the away fans in the Holte was a good idea
That was Doug wasn't it? Give away fans half the Holte, genius. I've been told by people who were there that after they put the fence up it was torn down again next match and the idea was quietly forgotten.
If I remember correctly, the fences had been set up down the centre of the Holte.
The 1st most fans knew about it was when they came into the ground and could not cross the centre.
I think it was a midweek game against Man City.
They had been put in and I guess it was in anticipation of the policy to come.
The problem for Doug and his plan was that the concrete had not set properly.
"The Holte did not like it and rose up above it, they pulled down the fences and tossed them away"
sorry about the plagiarism.
Another reason then for me to believe that Doug had no clue about the sprit of Aston Villa !!
Classic Tory tactics there from Our Doug, divide and conquer.
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I can remember when some bright spark thought putting the away fans in the Holte was a good idea
That was Doug wasn't it? Give away fans half the Holte, genius. I've been told by people who were there that after they put the fence up it was torn down again next match and the idea was quietly forgotten.
If I remember correctly, the fences had been set up down the centre of the Holte.
The 1st most fans knew about it was when they came into the ground and could not cross the centre.
I think it was a midweek game against Man City.
They had been put in and I guess it was in anticipation of the policy to come.
The problem for Doug and his plan was that the concrete had not set properly.
"The Holte did not like it and rose up above it, they pulled down the fences and tossed them away"
sorry about the plagiarism.
Another reason then for me to believe that Doug had no clue about the sprit of Aston Villa !!
Yup, it was the midweek home game - first home game of the season - v Man City on a Wednesday eve. We were annihilated 1-4 but the fence went.
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I can remember Small Heath fans having the whole of North Stand Lower Terrace and the whole of the Witton Lane stand in a derby in the old 2nd Division in 1986 - when they score they all flooded onto the pitch up to the Holte doing the offering out signs - oh how times have changed since then.........................
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I can remember Small Heath fans having the whole of North Stand Lower Terrace and the whole of the Witton Lane stand in a derby in the old 2nd Division in 1986 - when they score they all flooded onto the pitch up to the Holte doing the offering out signs - oh how times have changed since then.........................
They didn't have all the Witton Lane. A couple of hundred of them were in there, but the rest of the stand was as normal.
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Ah ok. Just seemed like it. Anyway that was a horrible day against them. 0-2 if memory serves. The late Ian Handysides scoring one of them.
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Ah ok. Just seemed like it. Anyway that was a horrible day against them. 0-2 if memory serves. The late Ian Handysides scoring one of them.
And that new manager we'd got was never going to do anything.
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Twas true. We were only a decent away side that season too - not a lot changes.
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It's a bit of a vicious circle.
The atmospheres not great, we don't have a lot of songs really - But how many of our players have done enough for us to warrant the singing of a song in their honour? Gabby, Benteke - Check. Been the same for a while.
The crowd can be quite quick to moan and groan when players misplace passes etc. this maybe adds to the pressure on the players when they're at home - Who can blame a crowd who've paid a lot of money to see so many terrible performances for so long.
Ultimately, the atmosphere will only be changed by the team winning some more games. They are going to have to change things not us.
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Wasn't the fence in the Holte put in place to make the allocation for FA Cup semi finals more even after the North Stand was built on the old Witton End?
I do remember the green mesh fence between the Holte and the Witton and I also remember the police using truncheons to knock fans back as they were trying to climb over the fence during the Villa Blues game in '87...
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Forest and West Ham were half and half in the Holte if memory serves for a cup semi in 91.
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Home games won by more than one goal? 6 in 60.
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Just to clarify, when I made my comment about putting away fans in the Trinity I meant in the corner near the north stand high up away from the pitch so that they are further away from their own players.
My comment was inspired by the knowledge that other clubs seem to stick the away fans high up in the clouds (say Newcastle for eg), and that this might help towards making the ground a less enjoyable place for other clubs to come and spank us on our own hallowed turf.
Problem with putting them in the Trinity would be that they would have to go through the car park to get back to their coaches. There is no easy way through there after a match. Cars would be damaged and it would be a bottle neck that could only lead to trouble. Very few clubs have a stand as tall as Newcastle to put away fans in. We have no such equivalent unfortunately.
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Moving the away fans is just masking the problem. It's the home form that's the real problem. Sort that out and we wouldn't even notice the away fans. It's only the fact that we notice them that much is because they've had so much to celebrate these last couple of years. Our home form is truly abysmal.
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Moving the away fans is just masking the problem. It's the home form that's the real problem. Sort that out and we wouldn't even notice the away fans. It's only the fact that we notice them that much is because they've had so much to celebrate these last couple of years. Our home form is truly abysmal.
Correct. If we did have somewhere to move them to, away from the action, it would just make the ground quieter.
Action, from our players, on the pitch is what it needs. Things have never been any different than that.
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I wonder if our pre-season has been partly a factor. In as much as we didn't really give ourselves enough testing games. We played a large quantity of games, but unlike in some previous years where we'd test ourselves against 2-3 really decent sides, among the lower league side, we only really had a test in our last game against Malaga.
Most of the other top clubs played a better standard of opposition. Granted, it's mostly about fitness, but I think our even though our defence looked utterly piss poor against very poor sides in pre-season, had we played 2-3 really decent sides from Europe, and probably been put to the sword, it may have changed some of Lambos thinking going into the final weeks of the window.
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I wonder if our pre-season has been partly a factor. In as much as we didn't really give ourselves enough testing games. We played a large quantity of games, but unlike in some previous years where we'd test ourselves against 2-3 really decent sides, among the lower league side, we only really had a test in our last game against Malaga.
Most of the other top clubs played a better standard of opposition. Granted, it's mostly about fitness, but I think our even though our defence looked utterly piss poor against very poor sides in pre-season, had we played 2-3 really decent sides from Europe, and probably been put to the sword, it may have changed some of Lambos thinking going into the final weeks of the window.
Doesn't matter I don't think. Manure, for example, played Singha All Star XI, A-League All Stars, Yokohama F-Marinos, Cerezo Osaka, Kitchee, AIK Fotboll and Sevilla.
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I can remember Small Heath fans having the whole of North Stand Lower Terrace and the whole of the Witton Lane stand in a derby in the old 2nd Division in 1986 - when they score they all flooded onto the pitch up to the Holte doing the offering out signs - oh how times have changed since then.........................
They didn't have all the Witton Lane. A couple of hundred of them were in there, but the rest of the stand was as normal.
Spot on Dave. They had a similar presence in the Witton Lane as far back as the 1982-83 season where we beat them 1-0 courtesy of Gary Shaw.
In the 1986 game in the old first division they did have the North stand upper as well as the Witton End ( North stand lower). That 0-3 defeat remains probably my lowest point at Villa Park.
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I can remember Small Heath fans having the whole of North Stand Lower Terrace and the whole of the Witton Lane stand in a derby in the old 2nd Division in 1986 - when they score they all flooded onto the pitch up to the Holte doing the offering out signs - oh how times have changed since then.........................
They didn't have all the Witton Lane. A couple of hundred of them were in there, but the rest of the stand was as normal.
Spot on Dave. They had a similar presence in the Witton Lane as far back as the 1982-83 season where we beat them 1-0 courtesy of Gary Shaw.
In the 1986 game in the old first division they did have the North stand upper as well as the Witton End ( North stand lower). That 0-3 defeat remains probably my lowest point at Villa Park.
That was the season we gave the entire North Stand to away supporters.
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I can remember Small Heath fans having the whole of North Stand Lower Terrace and the whole of the Witton Lane stand in a derby in the old 2nd Division in 1986 - when they score they all flooded onto the pitch up to the Holte doing the offering out signs - oh how times have changed since then.........................
They didn't have all the Witton Lane. A couple of hundred of them were in there, but the rest of the stand was as normal.
Spot on Dave. They had a similar presence in the Witton Lane as far back as the 1982-83 season where we beat them 1-0 courtesy of Gary Shaw.
In the 1986 game in the old first division they did have the North stand upper as well as the Witton End ( North stand lower). That 0-3 defeat remains probably my lowest point at Villa Park.
That was the season we gave the entire North Stand to away supporters.
Was that 85-86 Dave?
I remember sitting upstairs against Man City the following season as there was a special offer in the Mail.
It was a truly shit 0-0 draw.
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The old division for semi's used to be:
Trinity and Block K of the Holte for one team and the North Stand, Witton Lane and Block L of the Holte for the other.
In general the team traveilling for south had the former and North the later, eg Liverpool and Palace.
It was ideal for segregation with fans gaining access on seperate sides of the ground, the "Witton" allocation was marginally larger than the "Trinity".
Moving the away fans doesn't really make any difference, Sunderland and ourselves under MON are a prime example. I'm a traditionalist and prefer fans to occupy opposite ends of the stadium, behind the goals if possible.
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This is a no brainer, play to win and hopefully win a few, the fans get behind the team and on we go.
To think we can change our fortunes by moving the fans around is a bit daft.
We will have Barry Fry pissing on the corner flags next to remove a curse.
Adopt tactics and a mindset to win at home !!
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We've been shit at home for far too long. When you think about great home seasons of the last 30 years, there are depressingly few.
This is the number of home wins each season, starting with last season.
5
4
8
8
7
10
7
6
8
9
11
8
8
8
10
9
11
11
6
8
13
And that covers the PL era, hopefully I didn't miss one. For a club that has regularly been top 6-8 during that time that is pretty shit.
It's things like this which make me wonder if Dave W isn't right, and that the ground, the atmosphere and the club is just too big for any team we've had recently.
Without knowing how that compares with similarly inconsistent clubs it's difficult to know how bad those figures are. A cursory glance suggests 8 is about our average, add in half a dozen draws and that's thirty points from home games.
One I always find relevant to this was in 09/10 when we were neck and neck with Spurs for most of the season and they nicked 4th, we won 8 home games that season. They won 14.
For me aswell VP is just not an intimidating venue for quite a few reasons.
We also sit back and feel our way into home games rather than going for the throats of the opposition and making them aware it's going to be a difficult afternoon. We tend to concede the first goal an awful lot in home games and playing catch up in any game is difficult.
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all these stats & facts is all bollocks simple truth we need a new back four
In 09/10 we had one of the best defences in the league....Friedel....Young/Cuellar....Dunne...Collins....Warnock.
We won 8 home games.
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We've been shit at home for far too long. When you think about great home seasons of the last 30 years, there are depressingly few.
This is the number of home wins each season, starting with last season.
5
4
8
8
7
10
7
6
8
9
11
8
8
8
10
9
11
11
6
8
13
And that covers the PL era, hopefully I didn't miss one. For a club that has regularly been top 6-8 during that time that is pretty shit.
It's things like this which make me wonder if Dave W isn't right, and that the ground, the atmosphere and the club is just too big for any team we've had recently.
Without knowing how that compares with similarly inconsistent clubs it's difficult to know how bad those figures are. A cursory glance suggests 8 is about our average, add in half a dozen draws and that's thirty points from home games.
One I always find relevant to this was in 09/10 when we were neck and neck with Spurs for most of the season and they nicked 4th, we won 8 home games that season. They won 14.
For me aswell VP is just not an intimidating venue for quite a few reasons.
We also sit back and feel our way into home games rather than going for the throats of the opposition and making them aware it's going to be a difficult afternoon. We tend to concede the first goal an awful lot in home games and playing catch up in any game is difficult.
Spot on Soccer HQ
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I remember the Manure cup tie in 2002.
Putting away fans right by the Holte end wouldn't be a good idea at all. They'd still be pitch invasions when they score (why can't we get some decent security in that corner or at least a metal barrier to stop people getting on the pitch) which could lead to the Holte end getting involved.
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all these stats & facts is all bollocks simple truth we need a new back four
In 09/10 we had one of the best defences in the league....Friedel....Young/Cuellar....Dunne...Collins....Warnock.
We won 8 home games.
If you offered me 8 home wins this season, I'd snatch your hand off mate.
I'd settle for not losing so many home games. Draws are one thing, but losing so many games is not good.
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We need to stop losing games at home and away, it's no good having a good home record if the away is correspondingly crap.
To expand PWS's post, AstonVilla-Mad has a full league record
http://www.astonvilla-mad.co.uk/league_history/aston_villa/index.shtml
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all these stats & facts is all bollocks simple truth we need a new back four
In 09/10 we had one of the best defences in the league....Friedel....Young/Cuellar....Dunne...Collins....Warnock.
We won 8 home games.
If you offered me 8 home wins this season, I'd snatch your hand off mate.
I'd settle for not losing so many home games. Draws are one thing, but losing so many games is not good.
9 more points at home last season and we finish 8th.