Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: amfy on September 13, 2013, 08:43:19 PM
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Hi all!
I met up with Lee Preece on Wednesday, and was happy with how it went. I just wanted to try and have as much info as possible before posting.
I am going to start the consultation tomorrow, and I'll be speaking to people at The Family Fun Day, as it's and early chance to reach an important demographic. It'll be good to show that we have consulted young families. I'll be out and about in other areas of the ground/local area in following games
Basically, I'm just going to be giving out an A4 information sheet to those who need it, answering any questions and involving people in conversation, and getting as many people as possible to fill in a short survey. The club were quite happy with what I'd produced straight away.
The info is about the club's current position, the regs about standing, why we need a fan led consultation, and what safe standing looks like.
The survey information is mostly demographics and then a basic question of whether you are for or against a safe standing area at Villa Park, or want more information. There's a narrative box for reasons. It's really basic so peple can complete it quickly. The demographics are what we need to hopefully show that there isn't a particular group that is put off by the idea of there being standing areas in the ground.
The club have been really helpful. They are printing everything off for me, providing the clipboards and pens etc, allowing me to collect and dump everything before the game so that I don't have to lug a load of stuff about. They will do all the data crunching for me when I give everything in so I don't have to sort anything else out.
I was waiting to see whether they want me to launch a survey monkey, but they're debating whether to just run it on their own software once I have got the ball rolling, as it'll make the data crunching easier. The doubt is around whether this will corrupt the idea of it being fan led. They are also going to get back to me about whether I can put the survey out on official coaches.
They don't want me to canvass in concourses, to avoid the accusation that I am preaching to the converted in areas like the Holte and the North Stand lower. They are quite happy for me to hang around anywhere outside though, including places like The Holte Pub & Suite, The Lions Club, The Academy etc. which has made me think of going in places like The Aston Social before the game too.
They have asked me to start on my own so that I can get a feel for what I'm up against, and can brief anyone who wants to help out at future games thoroughly. If anyone wants to work with me at future matches, I'd like us to work together in one area rather than spread out around the ground, then we can support each other with difficult questions, or anyone on a wind up.
So
Pm me if you can help out at future games.
Or come and find me at Family Fun Day and get your survey signed as soon as possible - I'll be the one juggling half a dozen clipboards!
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Sounds great. Good luck.
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Good work Amfy and best of luck with it! Would love to see safe standing at VP.
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Great stuff, amfy. Feel free to canvass my opinion outside the church tomorrow. Just make sure you buy a copy of H&V afterwards so I do not upset the Boss.
Seriously, I am well impressed. I'm all for it.
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Great stuff, amfy. Feel free to canvass my opinion outside the church tomorrow. Just make sure you buy a copy of H&V afterwards so I do not upset the Boss.
Seriously, I am well impressed. I'm all for it.
She's already bought it.
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As others have said, great to see you take the initiative and start something happening around this and I'm really glad the club have shown yet again that if you work with them they're willing to put the effort in with the fans.
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Great stuff, amfy. Feel free to canvass my opinion outside the church tomorrow. Just make sure you buy a copy of H&V afterwards so I do not upset the Boss.
Seriously, I am well impressed. I'm all for it.
She's already bought it.
Is he still allowed to fill the survey in on your time?
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Great stuff, amfy. Feel free to canvass my opinion outside the church tomorrow. Just make sure you buy a copy of H&V afterwards so I do not upset the Boss.
Seriously, I am well impressed. I'm all for it.
She's already bought it.
Is he still allowed to fill the survey in on your time?
Multi-tasking.
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Hi amfy.
Lee Preece has said he will phone me soon but at work that is very difficult so I'll gladly fall in with you leading the way and helping when I can.
I'll PM you soon.
Great work!
Well done, and glad to know the club are supporting you (us?) all the way.
UTV!
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It's good to see someone take a lead on this and hopefully our club can lead the rest of the country like we've done before.
It seems strange that the club are worried about the data having a bias nature. I understand it from a survey point of view but surely there's a need to show a real demand for this? I don't see why there can't be sections in the Holte and/or Lower North Stand (and planned into the stand that eventually replaces it) for this and it should help generate a really good atmosphere. Borussia Dortmund are really the example for that and we have a manager who would no doubt agree with that.
I wonder whether there's value in using Survey Monkey over the club's systems. Sceptics could always say that the club has skewed the data towards the direction that it favours. Keeping it genuinely independent would avoid that. Then again, people could say that your data is skewed so I don't know what the answer is there.
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Yes I can see that, but it is also a good idea to work on showing that there is a demand for this from all sections of our support - not just those who want to stand themselves.
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One of my fears is that some of the fans who remember the bad old days will think that the safe standing move is the start of a return to those.
I hope that all will see that the safe standing area(s) will be for those who simply prefer to stand at games rather than sit and that the only change in behaviour will be a more vociferous, "active" demonstration of support for the team.
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Good luck and thanks for all your hard work Amfy. Much appreciated.
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One of my fears is that some of the fans who remember the bad old days will think that the safe standing move is the start of a return to those.
I hope that all will see that the safe standing area(s) will be for those who simply prefer to stand at games rather than sit and that the only change in behaviour will be a more vociferous, "active" demonstration of support for the team.
That, and that people who want to sit (the oddballs) can do so without inteference, if there is one specific designated standing area. That's a crucial benefit that needs to be talked up more. Should make life far easier for the stewards across the ground too. In theory.
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Amfy, as you know I only go to Villa games when I can get a freebie or if Woodhall drags me into fanzine selling, but I'd be happy to fill in your survey if you could e-mail it to me. PM me if that's possible.
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I think first of the all the club should be congratulated for giving Amfy not only their time but also by the sound of it a lot of help. Whilst I can't speak for other clubs in the area, when it comes to liasoning with our fans, I like to think we're better than most. I hope something good comes out of it eventually because i'd be happy to see standing back in some form or another.
Amfy, if I see you and time allows, i'll pop over and fill a survey out.
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The fsf have also repeatedly commented on how great Villa are to deal with compared to many clubs, and this is around fan's experience and/legal rights in general, not just standing.
Don't worry if you can't find me or reach me today. This isn't a once only offer I'll be around for a few weeks yet in different areas of the ground and surrounding watering holes. We also there will be an online version in some form soon. I'll bring a few to the pub each week after the game anyway so some of you will catch me there at some point. (Plumbutt?)
I have had a ridiculously frantic week at work, so I have been a bit late getting this started this week, but I tweeted quite late last night, and the response was good. Over the weeks I can hopefully get some momentum going. Thanks to those who are offering help. If I don't see you today, I'll get back to you before our next game so we can make plans.
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Really good today. Special thanks to those that made a special effort to come & find me. Will post more detail 2mo when sober!
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Yesterday I got to the ground at around 12.30, and got started at around 12.45. It was a little awkward at first. I approached people whose kids seemed to be well occupied in the various activities, but a fair proportion were still saying something along the lines of 'I can't at the moment, I've got my kids', which is fair enough.
However, as the parents began to relax into the day, and their kids began to run around with other people's kids and the parents were happy they were safe and occupied, more people were happy to talk to me.
Then more people began to retire to the academy bar, and then it got really easy, because I didn't need to juggle clipboards, and I could work with several tables at once.
The overall response was overwhelmingly positive. People not only wanted to sign up, at Family Fun Day it was a solid YES from everyone for the safe standing trial. a wide age range too, from young teenagers to pensioners.
I would have got more if people hadn't been so keen to talk about the good old days and I had some great conversations, whilst occasionally thinking ' yes, but if you could just keep writing while you're telling me this it'd be great!'
On the other hand, many of these conversations are important. People need to know that you aren't going to be able to just turn up & find your mates on the day like we used to, but that the risk of surges and crushes would be gone.
A conversation I had with a few people was around cost. Until whole stands are rebuilt, it can't be cheaper. This is because whilst there would be space for more people in a safe standing area, there still won't be more space in the stand itself. That is to say - what happens when twice as many people head for their half time pie &pint? Imagine the concourses of The Lower North Stand or The Holte with all those extra people - it can't happen. Increased capacities can only come when the whole stand - including concourses, fire exits, and toilets have been built with it in mind, and that is some way off.
My big surprise of the day was the few conversations I had in The Holte, with people around me, and people we drink with at half time. It seems they are potentially the difficult ones to convince. Everyone said that I needed to make sure I canvassed a wide demographic, and that The Holte is preaching to the converted, but it turns out that The Holte Enders could be the hardest work! It's not because they don't want standing, they don't want to sign up because:
'The club have been talking about this for ages, they should have just sorted it'
'Why do they keep making us sit down then? They're just taking the piss'
'It isn't up to the fans to sort this out - its up to the club'
'there's no point just doing that stupid little area - all or nothing'
'If its not going back to how it was, there's no point'
Canvassing closer to this area is going to be more of a challenge as it was clear that there is a fair bit of intrasigence.
Anyway - overall, between family fun day and the pub after, I have manged to canvass 96 people, of which I think maybe 3 have said NO. It's a good start.
I' m just going to be in The Holte Pub before Spurs because it'll be fairly easy in there to get round a good number of people, and I can still have a pint as I go!
I think I'll try & get a couple of recruits on board for the next league game.(fmwmu I am looking at you!) - we can have this done & dusted quite quick.
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Good work, Amfy.
Although I support the principle of safe standing I do have one reservation. My recent health issues means that it's probably not suitable for me at present. I'm sure that there are plenty of other people who either for health reasons or their age similarly wouldn't want to stand. The issue comes if those people currently sit in the area that might potentially be used for this trial and they are forced to relocate. As I say I'm in favour of the idea but there are wider issues that need to be considered.
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Clearly there's no getting round the re-location of people in the trial area that don't want to stand. If it's successful and expande toothed areas of the ground, a load more people would need to move. There are only 256 seats in the trial area, but it's spot near the corner flag does mean that a fair few of them are young families, because kids love getting such a good view of their heroes when they come to take a corner, or wheel over to the corner flag in celebration when they score - so its an interesting point. If it comes to it, I'm sure they club will do all they can to ease re-location, but there will obviously be some left unhappy. The club have been here before for less sympathetic reasons (e.g. Turning the middle Tinity Upper corporate)
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Apologies for sounding so negative but why is standing so important to people? I have stood on the Holte many times in the past and as a teenager the surge of the crowd and meeting up with your mates was part of the excitement. If as you say, this wouldnt happen now, i dont see the point.
Personally, i think football has moved on for the better with all seater stadia and we should leave it at that.
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Apologies for sounding so negative but why is standing so important to people? I have stood on the Holte many times in the past and as a teenager the surge of the crowd and meeting up with your mates was part of the excitement. If as you say, this wouldnt happen now, i dont see the point.
Personally, i think football has moved on for the better with all seater stadia and we should leave it at that.
Fair enough, but only three negative responses out of 96 suggests you are in a minority and many people would like to have the choice of standing if they wish.
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Apologies for sounding so negative but why is standing so important to people? I have stood on the Holte many times in the past and as a teenager the surge of the crowd and meeting up with your mates was part of the excitement. If as you say, this wouldnt happen now, i dont see the point.
Personally, i think football has moved on for the better with all seater stadia and we should leave it at that.
You sit out of choice. Why shouldn't I be allowed to stand for the same reason?
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You are a star amfy, fantastic effort, thank you for all you are doing
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Apologies for sounding so negative but why is standing so important to people? I have stood on the Holte many times in the past and as a teenager the surge of the crowd and meeting up with your mates was part of the excitement. If as you say, this wouldnt happen now, i dont see the point.
Personally, i think football has moved on for the better with all seater stadia and we should leave it at that.
You sit out of choice. Why shouldn't I be allowed to stand for the same reason?
Personally i am a 'sitter' - an age and dodgy knee issue but i back this 110% i know there are large numbers who would prefer to stand...so i say let 'em hopefully they won't be standing in front of me then.
The problem will be that the area will not be big enough to accommodate all that wish to stand. Will require a ST i imagine.
Yes, i hope all the work Amfy and co's are doing bears fruit. Good Luck
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Being effectively forced to sit down, whether we like it or not is a bit of an imposition on our liberty, there should be mixed areas on all four sides at every ground and people should be free to make their own choices. I personally HATE having to sit, but thats my preference. Any time you wish to move out of your seat everyone has to stand up, everyone behind stands up because they can`t see, its an inconvenience all round, going back several seasons there was a miserable get in our row who quite simply refused to move when anyone wanted to pass, you literally had to climb over the twat so i used to really take my time and fuck his view up for him, people would stick their arses/crotch in his face but he never relented, if ever standing comes back, i`ll be at the front of the queue.
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A very useful exercise, Amfy. Well done for all your efforts.
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Apologies for sounding so negative but why is standing so important to people? I have stood on the Holte many times in the past and as a teenager the surge of the crowd and meeting up with your mates was part of the excitement. If as you say, this wouldnt happen now, i dont see the point.
Personally, i think football has moved on for the better with all seater stadia and we should leave it at that.
I guess the point is that we're not going back, we're going forward.
What is being proposed is more like what people currently do much of the time - stand at their seat. There are clearly a lot of people who like to do this, because week in week out, loads of people choose to. This model is pretty much about creating an environment where it is safe and legal to stand at your seat (rail seat) They won't be in the way of those who want to sit, they won't have to have to have daft arguments with the stewards and stewards can spend their time actually assisting people instead of fighting a needless battle on standing. We won't have situation like we had at Stoke where people went over 3 rows of seats celebrating, because they would be standing in a space which was designed for standing, and where the rail would support them. What your argument misses is that people ARE standing, they just aren't doing it legally or safely.
My personal view is that football has got worse with all seater stadia, that it has lost its passion but each to their own. You are being consulted too. When I get my survey monkey up ( the club have said yes to this now) - please fill it in, because right now I've got so many yesses it looks fake!
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Quote from: Rudy65 on Today at 12:28:38 PM
Apologies for sounding so negative but why is standing so important to people? I have stood on the Holte many times in the past and as a teenager the surge of the crowd and meeting up with your mates was part of the excitement. If as you say, this wouldnt happen now, i dont see the point.
Personally, i think football has moved on for the better with all seater stadia and we should leave it at that.
You sit out of choice. Why shouldn't I be allowed to stand for the same reason?
Its a bit like sayng you want to stand at the cinema or the theatre. You cant, end of.
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Quote from: Rudy65 on Today at 12:28:38 PM
Apologies for sounding so negative but why is standing so important to people? I have stood on the Holte many times in the past and as a teenager the surge of the crowd and meeting up with your mates was part of the excitement. If as you say, this wouldnt happen now, i dont see the point.
Personally, i think football has moved on for the better with all seater stadia and we should leave it at that.
You sit out of choice. Why shouldn't I be allowed to stand for the same reason?
Its a bit like sayng you want to stand at the cinema or the theatre. You cant, end of.
www.shakespearesglobe.com/
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Quote from: Rudy65 on Today at 12:28:38 PM
Apologies for sounding so negative but why is standing so important to people? I have stood on the Holte many times in the past and as a teenager the surge of the crowd and meeting up with your mates was part of the excitement. If as you say, this wouldnt happen now, i dont see the point.
Personally, i think football has moved on for the better with all seater stadia and we should leave it at that.
You sit out of choice. Why shouldn't I be allowed to stand for the same reason?
Its a bit like sayng you want to stand at the cinema or the theatre. You cant, end of.
Well it would be if you could find anyone who wanted to stand at the cinema or the theatre, or anyone that stands at the cinema or the theatre despite the fact that they've been told for 20 odd years that they can't. The truth is, all these years of being told not to stand, and people still stand.
It is far more akin to standing at a gig, or even closer to home - standing at rugby, standing at horse racing. There is something in people that wants to stand for football. There is something participative in standing, there is something in standing which is linked with being involved rather than an observer. It is fine to be an observer, but those who want to stand, those who do stand, come to football for something else.
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Good work, Amfy.
Although I support the principle of safe standing I do have one reservation. My recent health issues means that it's probably not suitable for me at present. I'm sure that there are plenty of other people who either for health reasons or their age similarly wouldn't want to stand. The issue comes if those people currently sit in the area that might potentially be used for this trial and they are forced to relocate. As I say I'm in favour of the idea but there are wider issues that need to be considered.
The other side of the coin Chris is that if there were safe standing areas available, those opting for a seat ticket have a better chance of actually being able to sit during the game. It depends very much how clubs would implement safe standing in away areas, given that at home games most fans already know where to go if they actually want to sit.
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Its a bit like sayng you want to stand at the cinema or the theatre. You cant, end of.
If a large amount of cinema goers decided they would like to stand and watch a film, and they got together to petition for it, and other cinema goers thought "Yes, great idea, I'd like to stand and watch a film as well." then cinemas might experiment with standing areas. But that's unlikely really isn't it?
Although I note that at some film showings such as The Rocky Horror Picture Show and that Abba film they have special showings where people dress up and dance and sing in the aisles, so there you go.
Meanwhile Amfy's survey is showing a vast majority of Villa fans would like to stand, or at least have the choice of standing or not, and the club appear to be listening. So your argument is pretty facile, you will still be able to sit even if this is bought in, and in fact your match experience might be better because the standees will create atmosphere and less people will be likely to stand in front of you during the game.
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Its a bit like sayng you want to stand at the cinema or the theatre. You cant, end of.
If a large amount of cinema goers decided they would like to stand and watch a film, and they got together to petition for it, and other cinema goers thought "Yes, great idea, I'd like to stand and watch a film as well." then cinemas might experiment with standing areas. But that's unlikely really isn't it?
Although I note that at some film showings such as The Rocky Horror Picture Show and that Abba film they have special showings where people dress up and dance and sing in the aisles, so there you go.
Meanwhile Amfy's survey is showing a vast majority of Villa fans would like to stand, or at least have the choice of standing or not, and the club appear to be listening. So your argument is pretty facile, you will still be able to sit even if this is bought in, and in fact your match experience might be better because the standees will create atmosphere and less people will be likely to stand in front of you during the game.
Nobody can argue with that post. Well said Plumbutt.
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Whilst there may be a few that are miffed if they have to relocate, surely this is one where people win all round outside of it.
If you want to sit you can do so in an area of like minded people so you aren't up and down every five minutes.
If you want to stand you can do so which should improve the atmosphere, stop the stand off with stewards if you are standing in front of your seat and keep the council happy.
If you are a steward it must be a bonus not having to battle with standers and instead concerning yourself with more important matters of crowd safety as well as having additional time to help people out and add to their match day experience.
That's an awful lot of pluses against a few pissed off that they have to move.
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Please note - there are 2 pages to this survey!
OK - I'm going to try and post a survey monkey. Can someone who hasn't filled in the paper version give this a try and feed back if it works OK please? (hopefully the link will work).
I know I can try this out with you lot before I go and make an idiot of myself on the other sites where they don't know me.
<div id="surveyMonkeyInfo"><div><script src="http://www.surveymonkey.com/jsEmbed.aspx?sm=Zf4znpgh3aifIOKt13t5SQ_3d_3d"> </script></div>Create your free online surveys with SurveyMonkey (http://www.surveymonkey.com/) , the world's leading questionnaire tool.</div>
heres hoping....
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Ok - that doesn't look like it'll work - but maybe someone can fix it like they do when I mess up youtube links!
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I will. Send me the link and I'll try and sort it out for you on here.
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Click here (http://www.surveymonkey.com/jsEmbed.aspx?sm=Zf4znpgh3aifIOKt13t5SQ_3d_3d)
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That did not work.
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Have pm-ed you Leeg!
I have been battling with the stupid survey monkey for days, just trying to get it written!
Now I can't work out how to post the stupid thing! If the worst comes to the worst I can always email the survey and get some one else to put it on!
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Got your PM. If I could log in I'd be able to help you.
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Click here to access the survey (http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/5BSLL6G)
NOTE: There are TWO pages to this survey. Please do not miss the 'NEXT' button at the bottom of the first page.
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Woo-hoo!
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Well done Legion! Christ knows how I'm going to get that onto VT &VV though! I always thought it was really straightforward to survey monkey - but that thing has fought me from start to finish!
Anyway - as you will see, the survey simply sets out to find out whether there is any demographic which is put off by the idea of standing, as opposers often argue that women and families would be driven away.
Then it's a fairly straightforward measure of approval and narrative of reasons. It is very quick.
Early feedback would be appreciated.
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Woo-hoo!
/BOOM!
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Respondents 3 & 4 have managed not to answer the part about safe standing!
There is a second page everyone!!!!
Please don't forget the second page!
This may be a problem I need to address! What do you think?
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The ability for respondents to read, perhaps? Only joking! I'll amend as you have requested.
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Well done Legion! Christ knows how I'm going to get that onto VT &VV though! I always thought it was really straightforward to survey monkey - but that thing has fought me from start to finish!
Anyway - as you will see, the survey simply sets out to find out whether there is any demographic which is JT off by the idea of standing, as opposers often argue that women and families would be driven away.
Then it's a fairly straightforward measure of approval and narrative of reasons. It is very quick.
Early feedback would be appreciated.
I'll PM you the direct link.
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Thanks for all your help Legion! This seems to be going very straightforwardly now - and very quickly!
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I've filled the survey in. There's potentially a problem with it - I completed the second page and clicked 'Next'. The page just seemed to reload and I clicked the 'Next' button 4 or 5 times before the 'Done' button appeared which took me to the 'Success' page that I was waiting to see to confirm that the form had been submitted.
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Happened to me as well, but unless Amfy starts getting blank returns, it's worked.
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I thought it was worth mentioning in case someone only completed the first 2 pages and wasn't sure whether it had worked or if Amfy found she was receiving fewer surveys than what people were saying had been submitted.
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yeah there seem to be a bunch on blank pages on the end, people just need to keep clicking next until it invites them to join survey monkey.
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I had to click at least 4 times
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I wonder how much the club would charge to stand nowadays?
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The issues you are citing worry me, but I think they must be a programme problem, and one that I can't remedy.
This morning, I have 28 responses, and all but 4 of them are correctly completed. The 4 which didn't make it to the second page (the page that actually asks about standing!) are all very early on, (within the first 8). So it seems that it might have righted itself. if people could say on here when they have completed it, then I could perhaps see whether there are some not getting through.
I have completed other people's survey monkey's before and not really had any problems, so I am not sure whether I've done something to cause this. I just can't see what it could be, I put some questions in & saved it - it did fight me, I had to put some questions in several times before the programme actually put the 'save' button somewhere on the screen, rather than somewhere just outside it! So I have picked up that this programme can be a bit problematic!
The club were wondering whether to use their own survey software to do this, because it would be more straightforward on many levels, but of course that wouldn't be 'fan led', so it would defeat the whole object. However, I might talk to them today about this. Pease keep feeding back if these problems persist, especially if you can't get past them. It might be that if the club can say we started it, then they can finish it!
Thanks everyone 28 from about 10pm last night is a pretty good start!
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Done, and yes you do have to click 'next' a few times before a 'done' button comes up, whether this means you haven't completed the survey before you press 'done' I don't know.
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If you do not press the next button, don't worry, click on the link again and it takes you straight back to the second page. Just click the next button until it says done.
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Done, good work.
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I had the same problem as OCD, the second page was just two buttons, prev and next. I still submitted the survey though and I hope it's useful and useable.
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I've done it, so anyone can.
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Just completed as well.
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Done
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Done, great idea to get a standing area but not for me personally, not with these feet
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I clicked at the end until it invited me to start my own survey.
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seems to be going very smoothly now. The results are looking good - it feels very exciting watching it take shape!
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Amfy, is there a poll for other supporters of other clubs available as I work with a lot of Liverpool, Citeh and Yanited fans too.
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Apologies for the mini essay in the comments section!
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Hi Ads! Was that you? I loved it - loads of the comments are really good. I am getting a buzz from reading through it all. Its really positive.
I really need to concentrate Villa fans for this one. The fsf have a wider brief. That's why I'm not putting the survey on twitter or fb - this one is purely about us.
If we get off he ground, others will follow.
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I'll add it to our FB page this evening.
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Ok done!
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Done it too, good luck :)
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Over 200 responses online as of this morning so I've got around 300 all together now. We are running at around 96% in favour of the safe standing trial with around 66% actively wanting to stand themselves. The comments are well thought out and a real pleasure to read.
Villa have suggested I give myself a break for Spurs and go for Man City as the next 'in person' canvassing session.
Can anyone who'd like join me let me know? We are thinking Holte Suite.
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Finally done this.
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Amfy sent me a "MessageMe" message, I installed the App and now the stupid thing seems to have messaged everyone on my phone... so if anyone got a message off me at 9 o' clock this morning, that's why! I still can't read Amfy's message though!
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Amfy sent me a "MessageMe" message, I installed the App and now the stupid thing seems to have messaged everyone on my phone... so if anyone got a message off me at 9 o' clock this morning, that's why! I still can't read Amfy's message though!
There wasn't one. It's a virus thingy.
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Amfy sent me a "MessageMe" message, I installed the App and now the stupid thing seems to have messaged everyone on my phone... so if anyone got a message off me at 9 o' clock this morning, that's why! I still can't read Amfy's message though!
Yep, and guess what, I got one from you and did exactly the same!
Cue several baffled e-mails.
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yes - sorry about this. It got me exactly the same way. I put a message on fb but not everyone is on there. It seems to be a bit annoying, but no other ill effects so far.
on the up side I have heard from people who I haven't hears from in ages!
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It's not a virus, just like Whatsapp I think.
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yes - i think its just annoying when your whole address book text back asking what it is! Sorry to inflict this on everyone!
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No worries! Just means everyone I know now thinks I'm weird... but they all thought that anyway!
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Survey Completed, lets all hope you get somewhere with this.
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Done.
Great work, Amfy.
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Thank you every one!
If it is right what someone on here said - that I only need about 700 - I am already over half way there!
I can't quite believe how well this has gone, although it has been hard work in places, it is feeling worthwhile at the moment.
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Survey completed.
Apologies for the War and Peace'esque comments, but it's good to get stuff of your chest every now and again.
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done for you my friend.
UTV
The Doc
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Have you redo the form to fix the flaws and I have done it as well.
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Well that was fairly easy to complete. I wouldn't be able to stand for an entire match, but don't mind other people standing.
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Done, admirable work Amfy.
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good luck , Amfy,
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Filled in the survey, well done Amfy on getting this up and running again.
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I see Celtic are publically looking at safe standing. Maybe a successful trial north of the border, with the sort of crowds they attract, might make acceptance here easier?
Celtic to consider standing areas (http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/24232993?SThisEM)
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Done- well done for setting this up. I don't want to stand but totally support a trial for those who do want to.
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Just a quick update in case you are worried that it's all gone quiet!
I've now got over 500 responses. 97%in favour of standing. 76% actually want to stand themselves. Less than 3% against.
Frankmosswasmyuncle will be my lovely assistant canvassing in The Holte Suite before the Man City game.
I am setting a target of 150 for the day. If you are there, you can help to push it alongnfor us. I am hoping to multi task with a pint in one hand and a survey in the other!
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I see Celtic are publically looking at safe standing. Maybe a successful trial north of the border, with the sort of crowds they attract, might make acceptance here easier?
Celtic to consider standing areas (http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/24232993?SThisEM)
I think a lot of clubs will start to look at this now. It is a very good idea and very safe. Amfy, you deserve all the praise you get. Well done to you and Frankmosswasmyuncle for helping you. TOP NOTCH.
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Done, although it was very short. Not sure where people have put all their illuminating comments.
Anyway, good luck Amfy. Your good-nature deserves for this to be a success.
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Did you do page 2 Eammon? - there is a section there for narrative on reasons why you are for or against.
If you didn't do page 2 - go back in and fill it out again, as we won't be able to use your survey if we only have your demographics and no opinion on standing.
Out of the 400+ online surveys I have about 20 with page 2 missing. It isn't major data leakage but it has been an issue.
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Won't let me redo/view it. There were two pages which I clicked on and I think there was one box where you could wax lyrical so maybe I did complete it.
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It sounds like you have, & the number of skipped answers on standing hasn't risen so you definitely have.
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Fantastic response again today - thank you. Frankmosswasmyuncle was brilliantly - much better than me at this - he got loads! I have no idea how many people we got but was definitely 100+. Again - landslide victory for standing - even 3 people in wheelchairs voted yes! I have to admit to feeling a bit worried about approaching people in wheelchairs, I was honestly a bit worried that they'd think I was taking the piss, but it is important that wee consult a wide demographic & the response was really positive. I was quite moved by a bloke with cerebral palsy telling me how his dad used to take him on The Holte End and sit him on the stanchions. He said that there is no way he could be there now, but it should still be there for those that can.
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Done. I'm all in favour of safe standing although I wouldn't want ti stand all game myself.
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Amfy, apologies but I was filling my face with a rather lovely Chicken, Leek and Ham pie when I saw you, with clipboard, in the Holte Suite. As calling you over would have probably meant a poultry based spittle mix would have covered all around me may I ask if you will be doing the rounds at the next Home game ( against Spurs?).
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I was in there after the game and I didn't see either you or that Frankmossybloke, bloody pair half a jobs.
No, I've filled a survey in online but keep it going, well done to you both.
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Just done it. Even though I can't attend as often as I'd like; I would still like the option of sitting or standing. Standing takes me back and evokes such wonderful memories of when football belonged to us.
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Just done the survey, Had some top times standing on the holte as youngster the option should be there.
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Done it, well done Amfy and good luck.
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Done it as well. I see Bristol are trying to bring in "rail seating".
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Completed and in favour even if I don't want to use it myself.
Have an Upper Holte season ticket and we stand for 80+ minutes of each match unless it is a particularly low crowd (an entire row to myself against Tottingham) - need a sit down now and again!
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I witnessed the safe standing area at Allianz Arena recently. It's their pitch level tier behind the goal. Generates great atmosphere with fans bouncing all through the match. We could do the same at Lower Holte and Witton as and when correct decision is made.
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The Evening Mail have run a big feature tonight which seems to have bumped my online survey up by another 100 already!
They are getting back to me for a follow up feature on how its all going in a couple of weeks.
Nearly famous!
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Good work Amfy, hopefully this can pick up to a national debate as well.
I don't think there is any argument against it really, especially if Margaret Aspinall views re: Germany typifies them.
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Read the Mail article today, have the club changed their plans as I thought they were thinking of using the lower north as the experiment but it said they were looking at the 250 seats in the corner between the Holte and Trinity.
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2 things
- they need to start small
- the lower north certainly has potential as it is structurally safe for standing, but is a bit long and narrow with limited entry/exit points. not to put too fine a point on it - a bit Hillsboroughish - even though safe standing is very different, it'll be difficult for those who aren't in favour of safe standing to see past this before they have seen rail seating in action.
It's just more likely we can get it off the ground with that corner. There are more potential objections to the lower north if we go for that first. No reason that can't be the next move though.
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The Evening Mail have run a big feature tonight which seems to have bumped my online survey up by another 100 already!
They are getting back to me for a follow up feature on how its all going in a couple of weeks.
Nearly famous!
Well done Amfy and the very best of luck with this.
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Great article in the Mail, and very positive. Great to see!
amfy is my hero but right bossy!
;-)
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Cheers Amfy, makes sense that.
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Well done Amfy....keep up he good work!
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2 things
- they need to start small
- the lower north certainly has potential as it is structurally safe for standing, but is a bit long and narrow with limited entry/exit points. not to put too fine a point on it - a bit Hillsboroughish - even though safe standing is very different, it'll be difficult for those who aren't in favour of safe standing to see past this before they have seen rail seating in action.
It's just more likely we can get it off the ground with that corner. There are more potential objections to the lower north if we go for that first. No reason that can't be the next move though.
Would there be any chance we could get the "Safe Standing Roadshow" to make an appearance at Villa Park sometime? I (and i'm sure a few others) would like to see the rail seating and understand a bit more about how it could work in practice.
http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/
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May I just add a voice of support for amfy and everybody else associated with this great initiative. Sterling work.
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[quote
Would there be any chance we could get the "Safe Standing Roadshow" to make an appearance at Villa Park sometime? I (and i'm sure a few others) would like to see the rail seating and understand a bit more about how it could work in practice.
http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/
I am in the process of negotiating that with Villa ay the moment but didn't want to say anything still we have it settled. Just trying to work out where we'll do it. FSF are definitely 'in'!
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The survey has gone over the 1000 mark today! Still at 97.5% in favour.
I tweeted it and many random people who I have never met seemed very pleased!
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The survey has gone over the 1000 mark today! Still at 97.5% in favour.
I tweeted it and many random people who I have never met seemed very pleased!
Respec'.
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Amfy, will you please remember us when you're famous?
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Amfy, will you please remember us when you're famous?
Stop grovelling;-)
Remember you'r a Villan.
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Hi have you got the link to the survey?
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Click here (http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/5BSLL6G)
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I'll just done the survey. Completely in favour by the way.
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Completed it too, and in favour of standing of course
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I'm completely in favour of safe standing sections so I can bloody well sit down!
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Completed, how many ppl do yo need to do the survey and what is the next step?
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I am not sure how many I need, or what's next tbh.
Someone on here said I only need 700 and I am well past that already. Over 1000 responses is 2.5 % of a matchday crowd so I would think that would do it, particularly considering that it isn't a marginal poll, it is the very definition of landslide!
I would like to bring the safe standing roadshow to either Spurs or Everton though, and get a few more paper surveys done. I thinks the paper survey if more reflective because I get people to fill it in whether they agree or not. I think there may be a slight bias online, in that I think people who are in favour of standing are more drawn to it.
I would also like people to be able to see the safe standing roadshow. Ther are definitely people in both the yes & no camps who think we are bringing back the terraces.
Anyway - it has been indicated that Paul Faulkner want to meet me again before or after the Everton game to discuss where we go with it now. so I will know more in early November I guess.
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Lots of luck and good wishes, Amfy
Or
'You go, girl!'
Either way your questionnaire and responses have exceeded expectations.
Attend the meeting with pride.
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Absolutely fantastic work Amfy.
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I have just read back my post above and realised how tired I get after an 11 hour shift! It is a masterpiece of butchery of the English language!
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I have got the Safe Standing Roadshow coming on Sunday! We are going to set up near the Trinity Road ticket collection office, which is a good spot, because people collect tickets for all parts of the ground there, and there is a lot of passing traffic.
We need some help to set up at around midday. Any chance of any volunteers? You don't have to stay and survey unless you want to! Just head to the pub till kick off - but I do really need about 3 men to help us unload the rig and set it up.
any offers?
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You never know amfy, Sky might spend a few minutes looking at the issue of safe standing and want to interview you?!
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Oh Shit!
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Demo of the safe standing at the ground to-morrow
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/jon-darch-show-aston-villa-6206881
I see AMFy is mentioned in the article too.
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You know I'll be there amfy!
Already looking forward to behaving like an idiot behind the Sky chappy while he's interviewing you.
Fun times!
UTV!
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I am really nervous about today because it is probably the final day of the campaign. Having invited the safe standing bloke up from that there London, I would really like it to go well, but rain is forecast & I am worried that all the surveys will get soggy.
Surveying people at tables, who are not on the move has been easy, but it is hard to stop people who are on the move, especially if it's chucking it down.
Still - today the forecast is 'showers', whereas next week for Everton it is 'downpours' - so it made sense to go for it today.
Some random twitter people have offered to help with the set up, so I hope they turn up. Twitter went a little berserk on me for a couple of hours yesterday and I was at work with virtually no signal and unable to respond to most of it!
I hope that I can get away before the game & catch Kick off, I'd like it to be in time for a pint, but I'm not hopeful!
I am very very nervous at the prospect that someone from the telly might want to talk to me. That is very scary indeed.
Look forward to the re-assuring presence of frankmosswasmyuncle, & possibly My Jeffries
........anyway.....I think we have done it, I think we have done what we need to do to show that this has the fan's backing, and then it is over to Villa to get on with it & stop the Manc glory hunters from stealing our thunder!
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Good luck, amfy.
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I have got the Safe Standing Roadshow coming on Sunday! We are going to set up near the Trinity Road ticket collection office,
This is the first time that anything that close to Legion has been deemed "safe standing"
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Reading that article that Weedy posts, it looks like we'll need the support of 14 out of 20 Premier League clubs so getting Man United on board would be a big step forward. We as a club (with Amfy at the forefront of the campaign) have been the visionaries and the leaders though as we have so often been throughout our history.
Don't worry too much about Sky Amfy, they only have half an hour to build up the game and tend to be more bothered about that than anything else. If they should speak to you, just treat the interviewer as another punter who's interested in learning more about safe standing. Ignore everything else. You'll do fine.
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You'll be fine Amfy and we'll all be proud of you!
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Well done to Amfy for getting this sorted. I was there for a couple of minutes and in that time, total respect to John Wragge of the daily Express for coming over, talking and being generally interested in the display. No respect whatsoever to the ignorant ****** who said "I'm against it," turned his back and walked away while I was talking to him. The ******'s name, quelle surprise, is Alan Green.
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Alan Green is probably obligated to that stance, just by being a Liverpool supporter.
Coming over for no other reason than to say he's against it, is however a 100% Green-ism.
The self importance he affords himself is as comical as it is grating.
"Alan I don't care! just describe what's happening you fat idiot."
Is a phrase I've shouted at my radio heaps of times, when he's bleating on about the
referee or something in the crowd he doesn't approve of.
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What an arrogant twat!
Did he give a reason for being against safe standing?
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Alan Green is probably obligated to that stance, just by being a Liverpool supporter.
Coming over for no other reason than to say he's against it, is however a 100% Green-ism.
The self importance he affords himself is as comical as it is grating.
"Alan I don't care! just describe what's happening you fat idiot."
Is a phrase I've shouted at my radio heaps of times, when he's bleating on about the
referee or something in the crowd he doesn't approve of.
He didn't come over. He was asked to see it as he walked past, said what he did then turned his back as I was talking to him.
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Alan Green is probably obligated to that stance, just by being a Liverpool supporter.
Coming over for no other reason than to say he's against it, is however a 100% Green-ism.
The self importance he affords himself is as comical as it is grating.
"Alan I don't care! just describe what's happening you fat idiot."
Is a phrase I've shouted at my radio heaps of times, when he's bleating on about the
referee or something in the crowd he doesn't approve of.
He didn't come over. He was asked to see it as he walked past, said what he did then turned his back as I was talking to him.
My mistake. Its certainly not difficult to picture him walking over just to sneer at it.
Hope it went well for Amfy and the volounteers today.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BXBS6bKIMAAziit.jpg:large)
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Thanks Legion!
It went well, but was very different to the other days. It was a very early start, and for the first couple of hours it seemed to be all corporates and tourists. I seemed to have an uncanny knack of approaching people who didn't speak English. I knew it would be harder today - it is always hard to stop people on the move anyway.
I think that from 12.30 to 2.30 we worked really hard to limited effect, picking up the odd few surveys here and there, but from 2.30 it started to pick up, and the last hour was pretty non-stop. At one point we had a queue for clipboards!
Suddenly, it was 3.45, and we still had people coming up asking to fill the survey in and try out the safe standing rig.
At 1.30 people were walking away from us saying they didn't have time, and at ten to kick off we couldn't get rid of people!
The best thing today was the police approaching us, looking at it and liking it, and tweeting their support. (in fact - tweeting that people should get over to us and do the survey - and then that it was well worth a trial) That was brilliant!
Paul Faulkner popped down a couple of times during the afternoon, and I'll be meeting him in the next couple of weeks to see if we need to do anymore, and what is next.
The other good thing was missing the worst of the weather - a virtual rainstorm as I ran down Witton Lane to The Holte just in time for kick off, but nothing that bad for the 4 hours before that.
Thanks again to FMWMU who has been brilliant!
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BXBS6bKIMAAziit.jpg:large)
For the avoidance of doubt, that's amfy in the middle.
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I take it thats you with paul Faulkner Amfy , but who is the chap in the villa tracksuit top?
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That is frankmosswasmyuncle - so now you can all put a face to the name.
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That is frankmosswasmyuncle - so now you can all put a face to the name.
THanks Amfy , and what a fine looking specimen he is ;)
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Alan Green is probably obligated to that stance, just by being a Liverpool supporter.
Coming over for no other reason than to say he's against it, is however a 100% Green-ism.
The self importance he affords himself is as comical as it is grating.
"Alan I don't care! just describe what's happening you fat idiot."
Is a phrase I've shouted at my radio heaps of times, when he's bleating on about the
referee or something in the crowd he doesn't approve of.
He didn't come over. He was asked to see it as he walked past, said what he did then turned his back as I was talking to him.
I think I would consider seeing the back of Alan Green one of the highlights of my day.
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It was very interesting to chat with Amfy on Sunday and to see the "Safe Standing" being demonstrated.
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Even when the holte end was standing I was still a trinity road man as I prefer to sit level with the halfway line , I had a cracking seat until the trinity was rebuilt and had to relocate a bit wider - I would not stand by choice but I believe that choice should be available for those who prefer to stand.
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Great effort Amfy
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Glad to hear it went well Amfy and a massive well done. I was running late otherwise I've have had a walk over. It's also good to hear Paul Faulkner took time out to support it when he probably had a million and one things to do.
Oh and Frankmosswasmyuncle looks just like I thought he would.
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Wonderful effort amfy. I really hope something comes of it.
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Brilliant work all round!
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Well done Amfy - Good luck with the campaign.
VCTM jnr and I went to Bremen to watch the lads last year and the arrangement of terracing/seating worked well,l as did the stewarding of each block by regular guys dressed in tee shirts rather than hi-vis jackets.
However the guys on the turnstyles did look like a cross between a stormtrooper and robocop !
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Oh and Frankmosswasmyuncle looks just like I thought he would.
Quite handsome? Most definitely.
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Alan Green is a fucking prick. I have had the dubious pleasure of him via work a couple of times. Both through his broadcasting, and behaviour on the day, neither surprise me. Tool.
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Oh and Frankmosswasmyuncle looks just like I thought he would.
Quite handsome? Most definitely.
Seconded.
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Amongst other things, in the middle of match commentaries I've heard Alan Green discuss a Halloween display in his house, a Coronation Street plotline and Wayne Rooney buying a house near his.
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Glad to hear it went well Amfy and a massive well done. I was running late otherwise I've have had a walk over. It's also good to hear Paul Faulkner took time out to support it when he probably had a million and one things to do.
Oh and Frankmosswasmyuncle looks just like I thought he would.
Just wondering how I'm supposed to take that Clampy!
Tall, slim, athletic, blonde...rather like Uncle Frank?
Or a haggard old twat in a top I got for a fiver in the club shop sale last May?
No need to tick either box!
;-)
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Oh and Frankmosswasmyuncle looks just like I thought he would.
Quite handsome? Most definitely.
If I give you a kiss will you buy me a pint? ;-)
UTV!
I've posted it elsewhere, but John Darch who brought the safe standing stuff was absolutely brilliant! A real hero. And he made it clear how brave PF was to be the first Prem CEO to support this a few years ago, and how great it was to have the full backing of AVFC. Nice to know that we are again leading the way on something that the supporters clearly want.
And talking of things heroic, amfy has been a brilliant ambassador for Villa fans and the club and I know many of us on here are really appreciative of her efforts.
Well done amfy!
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Amongst other things, in the middle of match commentaries I've heard Alan Green discuss a Halloween display in his house, a Coronation Street plotline and Wayne Rooney buying a house near his.
A couple of years ago I almost crashed the car he got me so wound up with some comments he made. I can't remember the specific game but it was an evening kick off and he was having a real rant about people arriving late and spoiling his view. It didn't once occurr to him that perhaps after a day at work the process of getting home, having some dinner then travelling to a game for a 7.45 kick off through all the traffic might cause one or two people not to be seated in time to please Mr Green.
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Amongst other things, in the middle of match commentaries I've heard Alan Green discuss a Halloween display in his house, a Coronation Street plotline and Wayne Rooney buying a house near his.
A couple of years ago I almost crashed the car he got me so wound up with some comments he made. I can't remember the specific game but it was an evening kick off and he was having a real rant about people arriving late and spoiling his view. It didn't once occurr to him that perhaps after a day at work the process of getting home, having some dinner then travelling to a game for a 7.45 kick off through all the traffic might cause one or two people not to be seated in time to please Mr Green.
Sums the fuckwitt up succinctly: an egocentric tosspot under the delusion the world revolves around him.
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Amongst other things, in the middle of match commentaries I've heard Alan Green discuss a Halloween display in his house, a Coronation Street plotline and Wayne Rooney buying a house near his.
A couple of years ago I almost crashed the car he got me so wound up with some comments he made. I can't remember the specific game but it was an evening kick off and he was having a real rant about people arriving late and spoiling his view. It didn't once occurr to him that perhaps after a day at work the process of getting home, having some dinner then travelling to a game for a 7.45 kick off through all the traffic might cause one or two people not to be seated in time to please Mr Green.
Sums the fuckwitt up succinctly: an egocentric tosspot under the delusion the world revolves around him.
Given the size of his fat fucking arse, there's every chance it does.
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Amongst other things, in the middle of match commentaries I've heard Alan Green discuss a Halloween display in his house, a Coronation Street plotline and Wayne Rooney buying a house near his.
A couple of years ago I almost crashed the car he got me so wound up with some comments he made. I can't remember the specific game but it was an evening kick off and he was having a real rant about people arriving late and spoiling his view. It didn't once occurr to him that perhaps after a day at work the process of getting home, having some dinner then travelling to a game for a 7.45 kick off through all the traffic might cause one or two people not to be seated in time to please Mr Green.
Sums the fuckwitt up succinctly: an egocentric tosspot under the delusion the world revolves around him.
In many ways that should make him perfectly qualified to comment on PL footballers.
Alas, as is often the case, the difference between theory and practice only leads to disappointment.
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Oh and Frankmosswasmyuncle looks just like I thought he would.
Quite handsome? Most definitely.
If I give you a kiss will you buy me a pint? ;-)
UTV!
I've posted it elsewhere, but John Darch who brought the safe standing stuff was absolutely brilliant! A real hero. And he made it clear how brave PF was to be the first Prem CEO to support this a few years ago, and how great it was to have the full backing of AVFC. Nice to know that we are again leading the way on something that the supporters clearly want.
And talking of things heroic, amfy has been a brilliant ambassador for Villa fans and the club and I know many of us on here are really appreciative of her efforts.
Well done amfy!
Well I have been a critic of Mr Faulkner in the past primarily because some of his actions 2010-2012 were beyond belief.
However I think his actions in overtly supporting this initiative does set him apart from his peers in a really positive manner. So many of the others seem to be sitting on the fence.
Well done to all who are supporting this campaign. I don't even want to stand (anymore) at games but would not wish to deny others the opportunity, particularly those below the age of 30.
Alan Green can go fuck himself. I completely understand he is (still) upset about what he witnessed at Hillsborough, however to be so dismissive without engaging in intelligent debate shows his a a petulant child in the midst of a tantrum.
He also moans about the commentators position at Villa Park - it was moved a few years back apparently. I DON'T CARE - commentate on the match it is what you are paid to do.
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Oh and just filled in the survey - apologies it has taken so long.
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This should be stickied surely? Very interested to see what happens next.
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Sorry for the delay updating - Work has been exceptionally ridiculous for the last couple of weeks , so by the time I have got home, I have just wanted to surf aimlessly rather than do anything serious!
I had a meeting with Paul Faulkner & Lee Preece & we had a look at what we've got so far. They were very impressed and grateful, and feel that it does give them something to take forward.
The thing about a survey rather than a petition is it gives a percentage of support for the idea, rather than a pure number, and this is more impressive. We have also been able to show that all demographics support it, and this is important too.
Next steps are:
I've got to go to Villa Park to do a media thing on the 18th, which will at least go out through the Evening Mail & the official site. This will also give a further push for the survey for fans that haven't already picked it up via forums, twitter & face to face canvassing.
The online survey will only run for about another month and then I'll wrap it up & do some data crunching to work out what it all means. The obvious stuff is 97.5% in favour but I need to look at little closer at how this holds up across various groups (although the overall figure more than suggests it will hold up very well)
FMWMU & I are going to do a further days canvassing on Saturday when we'll be in the Lions Club. The club have been keen to pick up this section of the ground as it's other potential demographics. Here we can pick up some of the supporters club leads who may take some surveys on their coaches, as well as some of our more corporate supporters.
Lee would also like us to get the safe standing roadshow out at The Holte End for a future game this season, so Holte Enders can get a feel for it. My face to face contact has shown that Holte Enders are bizarrely the furthest from being on board with this for a variety of reasons (not a big enough trial, wrong place, we stand up anyway, why don't they just let us stand up anyway, it's not proper standing - all or nothing, forget it)
I have slightly cocked up the numbers but it isn't a big deal. I was adding together the face to face surveys and the online surveys, and made it well over 1000. I didn't realise that Villa were loading the face to face surveys onto the online one! We actually currently have exactly 900, but it won't be a major task to get it to 1000 and I wouldn't expect the figures to change significantly given how it's gone so far.
The survey does give PF something to take to Premier League meetings, both to raise in open forum, and to speak to other CEOs about. The key is going to be to use what we have to get other clubs moving. We need 14 premiership clubs to suppport this and so far I think we have about 6-8. PF can try to do this from where he is, and I will also be using the Supporters Trust to link with other Supporters Trusts to try and get them to do the same thing we have done. If other supporters Trusts can also demonstrate the level of support that we've got, we will be putting together something that can't be ignored. Supporters Trusts up & down the country do work together on issues like this e.g - The Spirit of Shankly's 'Twentys Plenty' campaign has united all fans in a common cause. Trusts are more about common causes than rivalries, even locally.
The key to this is that I have now shown how easy it is. That isn't to say it hasn't been hard work, but it hasn't been anywhere near as hard as I expected. I thought I'd be at it all season, scraping together 20-30 surveys a week - in fact it's taken a couple of months, and people have been generally very positive. This experience will encourage others to follow.
So - don't expect anything major for a while - the next step is very much about getting other clubs moving. This was never going to be an overnight thing, but so far, is moving quicker than expected so let's hope it continues in that vein.
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Cheers for the update Amfy. Keep up the good work.
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Well done so far and the best of luck with the next stage. You are really making this happen, good on you!
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Well done Amfy keep up the good work
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Frankmosswasmyuncle & I got another 86 fans surveyed in The Lions Club at the weekend.
I think we could have got more but we couldn't quite keep track of who we'd already asked, & everyone was really really chatty! It was different though - on family fun day & in The Holte Suite the conversation was all about how it was in the old days, with me steering it in the direction of how it would be different now. In The Lion's club it was lots of questions about how it would work, and how it would develop, people really wanted to debate the issue & have a whole conversation about the logistics! There was some reminiscing too!
It was really pleasant though - we had some great conversations, took it at a steady pace, took in a couple of beers & generally approached it much less frantically than previous weeks.
The online surveys continue to slowly rise so we are back within 7 responses of the magic 1000 mark! The bit of media with Villa next week should tip it over easily, and I might take some surveys with me to Southampton anyway.
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Had another meeting with the club this week.
The survey results have been put together in a publishable format and we are still showing over 97% in favour of safe standing.
They took some cheesy photos and are doing a feature in the Evening Mail tomorrow, and on the OS by the end of the week I think. I am a bit worried about the photos tbh.
http://www.blackscarfafc.co.uk/results-of-the-emirates-stadium-atmosphere-survey.html
Interestingly, Arsenal's Supporter's Trust have published their survey on "atmosphere" today, and they have 92% in favour of safe standing, with a survey total of 17,000 - & they only put it online for a fortnight! This shows what a Supporters Trust can achieve when it is fully up & running, & I am looking forward to our Supporters Trust having this kind of reach. (It would make life a lot easier)
I went to a national meeting of Supporters Trusts on Tuesday evening, and talked about what we have been doing at Villa, and there was a lot of enthusiasm in the room. This is good, because we need every set of fans to be taking this out there and doing what we and Arsenal have done - demonstrating that the desire is there for this from the supporters, until it is unignorable. The Supporters Trusts network is the way to take this forward, because unlike other fan groups, they work on common causes rather than rivalries. This is a common cause, that fans up & down the country need to push through together.
The Football Supporters Federation are also putting it out there for us, and looking to get other sets of fans involved. They are doing a feature on what I have done here too, and hoping that my exhortations about how "easy & fun" it was will convince other supporters to give it a go.
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Really pleased to hear this is coming on well and more importantly gaining support from other areas as well.
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Really pleased to hear this is coming on well and more importantly gaining support from other areas as well.
Indeed well done , you have worked tirelessly for this Amfy , thanks for the pm by the way - much appreciated .
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Just seen one of the photo's Amfy. It's not that bad.
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On the OS now! I am properly famous!
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On the OS now! I am properly famous!
And the Birmingham Mail
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/special-report-975-aston-villa-6325483
Thanks for taking this on.
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Congratulations Amfy, the good results and postive press is your rightful reward for the effort you've put in, you should be very proud of this. It's great that you saw the incident with Brigada in the cup and took a positive step to do the right thing by the club and fans to help stop the need for that in the future. As I said back in the original thread that led to this, if only Brigada had taken the same proactive steps you have they'd never have been handled as they were.
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Well done Amfy.....keep it going!
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Congratulations Amfy, the good results and postive press is your rightful reward for the effort you've put in, you should be very proud of this. It's great that you saw the incident with Brigada in the cup and took a positive step to do the right thing by the club and fans to help stop the need for that in the future. As I said back in the original thread that led to this, if only Brigada had taken the same proactive steps you have they'd never have been handled as they were.
As you know paul_e, it was the Brigada thing that got to me and made me become more active in supporting amfy in doing the surveys. Whatever the spark, the response from the fans, instigated by amfy and fully supported by the club, has been really positive to be involved in.
Agree with your comments re Brigada, but if it takes a roundabout or two to get there it'll be worth doing.
amfy deserves a medal but I'll get her a pint instead.
Didn't realise I was "a friend" 'til the Mail confirmed it! Only met amfy through this safe standing thing!
Great to see AVFC and its fans taking a lead in something really positive for fans everywhere.
UTV!
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Of course you are a friend now! Your name would have been up in lights too if I'd known it by about 2pm this afternoon. Sadly they couldn't put you down as frankmosswasmyuncle!
I prefer pints to medals anyway!
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As for Brigada - they have livened up my match days no end since they parked themselves behind us up there in L8. That's why I got so annoyed when they were thrown out, and remonstrated with stewards on the night. Their will to stand, clashing with the authorities need to make them sit, was the spark for this.
There are lots of ways to skin a cat, and in a way they can all work together.
There is definitely a place for good old civil disobedience alongside more legitimate routes, because lets face it, legal standing is still a long way off. In the meantime Brigada will continue to lead us in getting up and making some noise anyway!
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Great Job.
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Massive respect for doing all that you have done, Amfy.
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No mention AMF, but a big article in today's Mail on Sunday, with Villa & PF mentioned prominently.
Quite positive.
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No mention AMF, but a big article in today's Mail on Sunday, with Villa & PF mentioned prominently.
Quite positive.
I really hate the Mail, and having to retweet them this morning may be the low point of the campaign. However, it is an excellent article, well researched and very positive. It is a double page spread in print, which looks really impressive, & can be seen onThe Villa Trust fb page without having to actually buy the evil rag.
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Article from the BBC - there is a Villa mention in the list of groups http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/25136422
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Article from the BBC - there is a Villa mention in the list of groups http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/25136422
Yes, Radio5L featured the recent survey prominently this morning as well.
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Article from the BBC - there is a Villa mention in the list of groups http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/25136422
The government is not interested in any change to the law at all. Where does the campaign go from here? Where can pressure be applied? Do all 44 Prem and Championship clubs have to say that their official standpoint is for a move into safe standing?
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We need 14 premier league clubs to vote in favour if it to take it back for a change in the rules. The pressure is definitely building.
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We need 14 premier league clubs to vote in favour if it to take it back for a change in the rules. The pressure is definitely building.
This is good to hear. I really hope something comes of it.
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We need 14 premier league clubs to vote in favour if it to take it back for a change in the rules. The pressure is definitely building.
I really hope it happens. All-seater only football stadia (for the top two tiers of the game) is a totally outdated piece of legislation now, in the days of better policing, CCTV, etc. Not to mention that we're not even arguing for the return of old style terracing.
Will be interesting to see what would happen should the North Stand ever get redeveloped.
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We need 14 premier league clubs to vote in favour if it to take it back for a change in the rules. The pressure is definitely building.
Not to mention that we're not even arguing for the return of old style terracing.
This is what some people who are against it don't get. One chap on Facebook said he was terrified of terracing as a kid and wouldn't take his son onto terracing and it would be like going back into the dark ages.
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We need 14 premier league clubs to vote in favour if it to take it back for a change in the rules. The pressure is definitely building.
Not to mention that we're not even arguing for the return of old style terracing.
This is what some people who are against it don't get. One chap on Facebook said he was terrified of terracing as a kid and wouldn't take his son onto terracing and it would be like going back into the dark ages.
Those sort of people never went to matches in the old days and think football belongs to them.
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The biggest issue with the legislation is that there are so few stadia (across sports and other events) that have to comply fully and are not allowed the discretion to just go ahead and implement rail seating. Football fans in 2013 are not the same as football fans in the 80s and the suggested standing options are not the same as we had before so for me there shouldn't be a requirement for clubs to pledge support, etc it should just be reviewed because it's out of date.
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The biggest issue with the legislation is that there are so few stadia (across sports and other events) that have to comply fully and are not allowed the discretion to just go ahead and implement rail seating.
I was speaking to Amfy about this a few weeks ago. There's a health and safety issue with regards to the concourses possibly not being big enough to cope with the extra numbers rail seating would bring. If rail seating is legalised, it's likely we won't see it in grounds unless new stadiums/stands are built.
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The biggest issue with the legislation is that there are so few stadia (across sports and other events) that have to comply fully and are not allowed the discretion to just go ahead and implement rail seating.
I was speaking to Amfy about this a few weeks ago. There's a health and safety issue with regards to the concourses possibly not being big enough to cope with the extra numbers rail seating would bring. If rail seating is legalised, it's likely we won't see it in grounds unless new stadiums/stands are built.
Would there be an increase in capacity, as far as I'm aware a single rail seat occupies the same space as a normal seat so I wouldn't have thought there would be any legitimate concerns about increased numbers.
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The biggest issue with the legislation is that there are so few stadia (across sports and other events) that have to comply fully and are not allowed the discretion to just go ahead and implement rail seating.
I was speaking to Amfy about this a few weeks ago. There's a health and safety issue with regards to the concourses possibly not being big enough to cope with the extra numbers rail seating would bring. If rail seating is legalised, it's likely we won't see it in grounds unless new stadiums/stands are built.
Would there be an increase in capacity, as far as I'm aware a single rail seat occupies the same space as a normal seat so I wouldn't have thought there would be any legitimate concerns about increased numbers.
There's two steps between each rail for standing as I understand it.
More here: clicky (http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/the-proposal/the-proposal-continued---the-sums)
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The biggest issue with the legislation is that there are so few stadia (across sports and other events) that have to comply fully and are not allowed the discretion to just go ahead and implement rail seating.
I was speaking to Amfy about this a few weeks ago. There's a health and safety issue with regards to the concourses possibly not being big enough to cope with the extra numbers rail seating would bring. If rail seating is legalised, it's likely we won't see it in grounds unless new stadiums/stands are built.
I've seen talks about part of the Lower Holte being used as a trial and the likes of Man United having a trial section.
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The biggest issue with the legislation is that there are so few stadia (across sports and other events) that have to comply fully and are not allowed the discretion to just go ahead and implement rail seating.
I was speaking to Amfy about this a few weeks ago. There's a health and safety issue with regards to the concourses possibly not being big enough to cope with the extra numbers rail seating would bring. If rail seating is legalised, it's likely we won't see it in grounds unless new stadiums/stands are built.
I've seen talks about part of the Lower Holte being used as a trial and the likes of Man United having a trial section.
I don't know where Man U's would be, but ours will be in the little corner between the Holte and the Trinity. I don't know if the whole section will be used in the trial though, Amfy could probably tell us more.
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The biggest issue with the legislation is that there are so few stadia (across sports and other events) that have to comply fully and are not allowed the discretion to just go ahead and implement rail seating.
I was speaking to Amfy about this a few weeks ago. There's a health and safety issue with regards to the concourses possibly not being big enough to cope with the extra numbers rail seating would bring. If rail seating is legalised, it's likely we won't see it in grounds unless new stadiums/stands are built.
They don't have to build new stands to bring in safe standing, but they would for an increase in capacity.
you can get 70% more people into a safe standing area using rail seating, but until stands were rebuilt, you would not be able to use this increased capacity because the capacity of concourses & the number of exits would be to small to cope.
It is possible that some stands could be reconfigured within existing structures without a complete rebuild in order to safely accommodate increased numbers, not only in the stands, but in the concourses too.
However - it is most likely that early rail seating will be implemented at one person per seat space, so no early prospect of cheaper tickets.
initially at least, people will buy tickets for standing areas because they want toto stand, not because it will be cheaper.
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They were talking about it on WM this morning, the usual lack of background research and the usual duffers ringing in to dismiss the idea out of hand. The ludicrous comment was made the clubs are backing the idea as a way of getting more people into the space in order to make more money.
There was also an article in the Express and Star a few weeks ago from which it was clear that the writer had no understanding of the concept of safe standing but just assumed that the idea was simply to bring back old-fashioned terrace pens.
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The biggest issue with the legislation is that there are so few stadia (across sports and other events) that have to comply fully and are not allowed the discretion to just go ahead and implement rail seating.
I was speaking to Amfy about this a few weeks ago. There's a health and safety issue with regards to the concourses possibly not being big enough to cope with the extra numbers rail seating would bring. If rail seating is legalised, it's likely we won't see it in grounds unless new stadiums/stands are built.
I've seen talks about part of the Lower Holte being used as a trial and the likes of Man United having a trial section.
I don't know where Man U's would be, but ours will be in the little corner between the Holte and the Trinity. I don't know if the whole section will be used in the trial though, Amfy could probably tell us more.
PF said they thought of that corner to get the idea off the ground, but it could change.
I probably had far more people object that the trial area was too small than object to standing.
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The biggest issue with the legislation is that there are so few stadia (across sports and other events) that have to comply fully and are not allowed the discretion to just go ahead and implement rail seating.
I was speaking to Amfy about this a few weeks ago. There's a health and safety issue with regards to the concourses possibly not being big enough to cope with the extra numbers rail seating would bring. If rail seating is legalised, it's likely we won't see it in grounds unless new stadiums/stands are built.
I've seen talks about part of the Lower Holte being used as a trial and the likes of Man United having a trial section.
I don't know where Man U's would be, but ours will be in the little corner between the Holte and the Trinity. I don't know if the whole section will be used in the trial though, Amfy could probably tell us more.
PF said they thought of that corner to get the idea off the ground, but it could change.
I probably had far more people object that the trial area was too small than object to standing.
I need to be less drunk when you're telling me these things ;)
Thanks for the clarification, Amfy!
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Football League clubs consulted on return of standing
By Paul Fletcher
BBC Sport Standing could make a permanent return at all levels of the Football League after its 72 clubs were sent a document canvassing their opinion on the issue.
It is currently allowed in Leagues One and Two but Championship grounds must be all-seater after a club has played in the second tier for three seasons.
The consultation paper was sent to all Football League clubs on Friday.
The clubs, who had asked for more information about standing, will debate the issue at a meeting in February.
Trials & tribulations on terraces
•1946: Overcrowding at a Bolton v Stoke cup tie at Burnden Park leaves 33 dead
•1981: Jimmy Hill makes Coventry City's Highfield Road all-seater to combat hooliganism; the experiment lasts two years
•1989: UK's worst stadium tragedy occurs when 96 Liverpool fans die during an FA Cup semi-final at Hillsborough
•1998: Uefa bans standing areas for European games, but clubs in Germany refuse to scrap their terraces
•2001: Football Supporters' Federation is formed and makes safe standing a key campaign issue a year later
•2011: A year after Liberal Democrats put safe standing in their manifesto, the Scottish Premier League drops its standing ban
•2013: Football League sends consultation document to its clubs regarding a return to safe standing
"It is now over to the clubs to get their views," said Football League chief executive Shaun Harvey.
"Speaking personally, I do not have strong views on this and it is genuinely a matter for the clubs."
The subject was initially raised at the Football League's annual chairman's conference in Portugal last June, with clubs voting in favour of further investigating the issue.
Acting on the wishes of its members, Football League officials gathered more information, including canvassing the opinion of the Football Supporters' Federation , which for many years has campaigned for safe standing.
"There has been a sea-change in attitude at clubs over the last two-to-three years towards safe standing and this is an example of that," said FSF co-chairman Malcolm Clarke.
"As far as the Football League is concerned the law is a total nonsense - it allows standing in League One and League Two but not in the Championship."
Football League executives also attended the German Super Cup final in July to develop their understanding of what is happening at grounds like Borussia Dortmund's Westfalenstadion.
The "Yellow Wall", as the southern terrace at Dortmund is known, can accommodate 25,000 fans.
Many German clubs have upgraded their terraces with "rail seats". These are metal seats that can be flipped up, and locked in place, providing space to stand behind a waist-high rail that runs along the back of the row in front. Every "seat" is linked to a ticket number, and can be flipped down to meet Uefa rules for European games.
The Football League document includes contributions from Derby County, Peterborough and Bristol City - three clubs who have expressed an interest in seeing the rules changed.
It also contains details of the changes that would be required from a football regulatory, government policy and legislative perspective were standing to return on a permanent basis in the Championship.
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Just seen the news.
Well done to all for your hard work in getting things moving.
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I assume that is in reference to http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/26079503 (http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/26079503)
I find the comment "there is no such thing as safe standing" interesting, do you think we should tell the thousands of rock concerts, lower league games and rugby matches that happen every year with no incidents about that? What happened at hillsborough was terrible but the opinions of that group are alomst entirely meaningless in this debate, so much so that I don't understand why they even get asked. Everyone knows that they will never consider a reasonable middle ground on this, regardless of the evidence supporting safe standing and citing that standing in seated areas is more dangerous they just won't accept that terracing is anything other than a death trap.
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I think its a given that any Hillsborough group aren't going to support safe standing, and you can't blame them really. It would be interesting if any Liverpool fan would support it. I think Liverpool's support in the whole campaign would be quite pivotable. Has any one canvassed them?
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I feel sorry for Margaret Aspinwall's loss, but she doesn't half talk a load of old shite.
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Probably been said before, but I was at Anfield the other week and was sat in the Main Stand right next to the Kop. The whole of the back third of the Kop were stood up for the entire 90 minutes.
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I feel sorry for Margaret Aspinwall's loss, but she doesn't half talk a load of old shite.
You can fully understand why she would be against it, but to claim there is no such thing as safe standing is wrong.
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The majority of the 72 Football League clubs have at least some hope of playing in the Premier League one day. Whether the hope is realistic, fanciful or "if we get some billionaire buy us you never know" most of them at least like to consider it a vague possibility. As such, very few Football League clubs will bother converting to Safe Standing knowing that they'd only have to convert back if they ever get in the top flight.
I think the Premier League should lobby for clubs to be allowed to bring it back if they so choose. If Liverpool don't want to prerogative but they shouldn't be able to emotionally blackmail the other nineteen clubs out of doing what their fans want them to do.
Like everyone on here, I have every sympathy for the Hillsborough Support Group but while they have this attitude of "there is no such thing as Safe Standing" and are unwilling to even consider any other viewpoint we have to just carry on regardless of their views, even if that sounds callous.
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I feel sorry for Margaret Aspinwall's loss, but she doesn't half talk a load of old shite.
Always has. Same can be said for Trevor Hicks who used a Hillsborough Memorial Service at Anfield a few years back not to pay tribute to the two daughters he so tragically lost, but to berate Liverpool fans for standing up at home and away games.
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I'm glad other people see as I do, the whole things is very personal for those people, for very clear reasons, but that doesn't give their opinion any more weight than the large number of people who want these trials to go ahead and the facts and figures lean heavily towards instigating trials.
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The website 'This is Anfield' have done a series of articles supporting safe standing which are really well informed and make brilliant reading.
They make convincing arguments that it is more supportive of the 96 to campaign for a return to standing. It was poor crowd management that killed those supporters - blaming standing is part of the cover up.
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The website 'This is Anfield' have done a series of articles supporting safe standing which are really well informed and make brilliant reading.
They make convincing arguments that it is more supportive of the 96 to campaign for a return to standing. It was poor crowd management that killed those supporters - blaming standing is part of the cover up.
I heard the piece on R5L this morning and was hopping mad at the ill-informed comments from the Hillsborough families spokesperson. She added no value to the discussion and I really feel that their opinion is not only wedded in the past but also completely misleading.
I emailed the BBC to that effect, too.
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Her explanation for why it works in Germany but couldn't possibly work in England is a frankly bizarre.
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What was the reason?
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Because English people are different shapes to Germans, I don't care what happens abroad it has no effect on this country and la la la I can't hear you. Or words to that effect.
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Because English people are different shapes to Germans, I don't care what happens abroad it has no effect on this country and la la la I can't hear you. Or words to that effect.
When she as good as said "I don't care about Germans, they've never died" was when I lost all respect for her.
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It was bizarre.
With almost no exception, every football fan in this country sympathises with the Hillsborough families, but she was doing them no good at all.
At one point I'm sure she was saying that if you stand up at a football ground you might die. Well yes, if you cross the road you might die as well, in fact you have a better statistical chance of it, but I will still cross the road.
After all the campaigning they did they need a better spokesperson, someone whose arguments aren't still trying to put the blame on terraces (which were only a very small part of the problem at Hillsborough) and keep the focus on the much bigger problems that caused the disaster.
She has probably helped the safe standing campaign though, because her counter arguments were so utterly hatstand that she was basically arguing for safe standing.
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I think she meant that it wouldn't work in this country because the English are slightly more moronic than the Germans, and she was kind enough to provide an example.
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As has been said, she has an outdated view of the whole argument and as Dave said, only puts more fuel into the Safe Standing argument. She said that you cannot have standing without cages and fences.
She should really do some research.
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I don't think research would do anyone like that any good. She has a closed mind to the whole thing and has no interest in the debate; and I can see why that would be. I can see safe standing happening and people of that ilk will have a hard problem with it.
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The irony is, their whole (fully justified) campaign was to quite rightly focus on the police actions that day, not that fans were standing.
As far as I can remember originally the finger wasn't pointed at terracing as a concept. That's something that's come later in the battle.
I wonder if for those who fought so hard to see the truth recognised in public, after living with the grief of losing a loved one under those circumstances, now that that battle is over, there's a sense of what do I do now, hence the incomprehensible (to an outsider), utterances.
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To be fair the longer Margaret Aspinwall, and those like her speak, the closer standing becomes.
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I feel sad for her. Its too hard a loss. Its wrecked her life and nothing will make sense again.
safe standing will happen though
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I feel sad for her. Its too hard a loss. Its wrecked her life and nothing will make sense again.
safe standing will happen though
I think the phrase there is "wrecked her life". Some people who suffer tragedy can use the experience as a force for good. Others become embittered. A good example is the mother of the Moors Murders victim who basically became a professional victim, always on call for such programmes as Central Weekend. Both women suffered unimaginable tragedy and although it's easy for me to say, neither show(ed) a willingness to move on and accept that others might have different views.
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Jamie Bolger's mother is another - but no-one who hasn't suffered similar tragedy is in a position to judge.
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Jamie Bolger's mother is another - but no-one who hasn't suffered similar tragedy is in a position to judge.
Without a doubt. I suppose we expect everyone in that position to behave like Nelson Mandela.
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I take it you're back home amfy?
Give us a text and we'll meet up.
Good news from the Football League's 72 clubs backing safe standing!
UTV!
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It's up to Mrs Aspinall what her opinion is, and I can understand why she feels like that, but surely the fundamental point is that the Hillsborough families have no right of veto over whether this happens or not.
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It's up to Mrs Aspinall what her opinion is, and I can understand why she feels like that, but surely the fundamental point is that the Hillsborough families have no right of veto over whether this happens or not.
Sentiment aside, their opinion is no more valid than anyone else's.
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Are we entering the start of the change here? Can we actually expect safe standing in the next few years?
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Just a matter of time Ads.
Just wish the media wouldn't keep taking such an emotional angle on things, which they always do, always citing Hillsborough.
It surely muddies any sensible debate on the subject, as folk more knowing and eloquent than myself have stated above.
(I stood for most of the game today. But not safely.)
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26141427
Interesting from Bristol City!
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I was invited to this launch today but couldn't for because I've only just for back from a month of work. I think Lee Preece & Paul Faulkner are going.
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Just a matter of time Ads.
Just wish the media wouldn't keep taking such an emotional angle on things, which they always do, always citing Hillsborough.
It surely muddies any sensible debate on the subject, as folk more knowing and eloquent than myself have stated above.
(I stood for most of the game today. But not safely.)
i was pretty shocked to learn from the stats that someone posted previously on this thread (if true) that 33 people died at Stoke in 1946 - never even heard mention of that.
I used to love going on the holte when it was a terrace. It was a little bit anxious at times with the crowding especially near the exits, but kind of what you're used to in a way. But just the simple things they did when it had a bit of a refurb with the roof extension, painting the steps yellow and probably limiting the capacity a bit, took virtually any unsafe aspects likely to arise through overcrowding away. You'd still get 20k rather than 26k+ on it and never a nervy time of it due to overcrowding.
My point is instead of saying seats good terracing bad, why not just assess each standing area to see if it could be made safe to an acceptable level rather than flattening everything. I actually mourn the loss of the holte terrace more than the old trinity rd stand. I suppose no engineer wants their name on a bit of paper saying yeah the Holte's safe then 10 people die In a crush trying to exit the ground near a stairwell.
It's more than likely the risk caused to safety by terracing and it's consequence on insurance industry is 100% more likely to get your premiums increased to an uninsurable level.
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Just a matter of time Ads.
Just wish the media wouldn't keep taking such an emotional angle on things, which they always do, always citing Hillsborough.
It surely muddies any sensible debate on the subject, as folk more knowing and eloquent than myself have stated above.
(I stood for most of the game today. But not safely.)
i was pretty shocked to learn from the stats that someone posted previously on this thread (if true) that 33 people died at Stoke in 1946 - never even heard mention of that.
I used to love going on the holte when it was a terrace. It was a little bit anxious at times with the crowding especially near the exits, but kind of what you're used to in a way. But just the simple things they did when it had a bit of a refurb with the roof extension, painting the steps yellow and probably limiting the capacity a bit, took virtually any unsafe aspects likely to arise through overcrowding away. You'd still get 20k rather than 26k+ on it and never a nervy time of it due to overcrowding.
My point is instead of saying seats good terracing bad, why not just assess each standing area to see if it could be made safe to an acceptable level rather than flattening everything. I actually mourn the loss of the holte terrace more than the old trinity rd stand. I suppose no engineer wants their name on a bit of paper saying yeah the Holte's safe then 10 people die In a crush trying to exit the ground near a stairwell.
It's more than likely the risk caused to safety by terracing and it's consequence on insurance industry is 100% more likely to get your premiums increased to an uninsurable level.
It was at Bolton, but yes, it is the forgotten disaster, possibly because bad things didn't happen in the good old days. Someone also died in a crush at Villa Park in 1926.
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Link to article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnden_Park_disaster)
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I was stood on the stairs last night, as were quite a few others. I am not sure if some people had jibbed in, as my seats were occupied and the people who were stood in my seats said their seats had been taken as well.
If we had scored, we would have gone piling down the stairs I would imagine.
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I was stood on the stairs last night, as were quite a few others. I am not sure if some people had jibbed in, as my seats were occupied and the people who were stood in my seats said their seats had been taken as well.
If we had scored, we would have gone piling down the stairs I would imagine.
There was no reason for anyone to be stood up in the away section last night and yet we all were.
I'd like to see the sitting down rule strictly enforced.
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Link to article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnden_Park_disaster)
Blimey, this is shocking: "The dead and injured were taken from the stand, with those who had perished lain along the touchline and covered in coats. A little under half an hour after leaving the pitch, the game was restarted, with a new sawdust lined touchline separating the players from the bodies. At the end of the first-half, the players immediately changed ends and started the second half. Stanley Matthews was on the Stoke team, and later said he was sickened that the game was allowed to continue."
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I was stood on the stairs last night, as were quite a few others. I am not sure if some people had jibbed in, as my seats were occupied and the people who were stood in my seats said their seats had been taken as well.
If we had scored, we would have gone piling down the stairs I would imagine.
There was no reason for anyone to be stood up in the away section last night and yet we all were.
I'd like to see the sitting down rule strictly enforced.
It's another reason for Safe Standing for me. If there's always going to be people persisting in standing - even when it's all seated - then having a specified area for safe standing sounds sensible to me.
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Link to article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnden_Park_disaster)
Blimey, this is shocking: "The dead and injured were taken from the stand, with those who had perished lain along the touchline and covered in coats. A little under half an hour after leaving the pitch, the game was restarted, with a new sawdust lined touchline separating the players from the bodies. At the end of the first-half, the players immediately changed ends and started the second half. Stanley Matthews was on the Stoke team, and later said he was sickened that the game was allowed to continue."
Has the attitude to death changed over time or something? That's quite amazing given current attitudes.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26158044
Further support from Lee Preece!
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Link to article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnden_Park_disaster)
Blimey, this is shocking: "The dead and injured were taken from the stand, with those who had perished lain along the touchline and covered in coats. A little under half an hour after leaving the pitch, the game was restarted, with a new sawdust lined touchline separating the players from the bodies. At the end of the first-half, the players immediately changed ends and started the second half. Stanley Matthews was on the Stoke team, and later said he was sickened that the game was allowed to continue."
Has the attitude to death changed over time or something? That's quite amazing given current attitudes.
The war had just ended. Stiff upper lip, play the game chaps.
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I was stood on the stairs last night, as were quite a few others. I am not sure if some people had jibbed in, as my seats were occupied and the people who were stood in my seats said their seats had been taken as well.
If we had scored, we would have gone piling down the stairs I would imagine.
There was no reason for anyone to be stood up in the away section last night and yet we all were.
I'd like to see the sitting down rule strictly enforced.
It's another reason for Safe Standing for me. If there's always going to be people persisting in standing - even when it's all seated - then having a specified area for safe standing sounds sensible to me.
It would seem the fairest approach.
I cannot think of a single away game this season where we have sat down.
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I was stood on the stairs last night, as were quite a few others. I am not sure if some people had jibbed in, as my seats were occupied and the people who were stood in my seats said their seats had been taken as well.
If we had scored, we would have gone piling down the stairs I would imagine.
There was no reason for anyone to be stood up in the away section last night and yet we all were.
I'd like to see the sitting down rule strictly enforced.
It's another reason for Safe Standing for me. If there's always going to be people persisting in standing - even when it's all seated - then having a specified area for safe standing sounds sensible to me.
Don't be so f@#king sensible!!!!!
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Well done Amfy, Frankmoss, Faulkner, Bristol City and anybody else involved in this.
I would like the option of standing at a game.
Villa and their fans, and others, helping to drive the game forward in the right way. You should be proud of your efforts ! I am proud of you.
Well done, good work.
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I would have thought that safe standing (along the rail seats basis) is far safer than people standing in seated areas as we get now. it strikes me that what we have now is the worst of all worlds. You have people - mainly away fans, but not exclusively - who want to stand, and keep doing so, but amongst them, children or people who want to sit - as is their right, they've bought a seated ticket - but can't, because they can't see anything.
I entirely understand the emotions behind the stance of the Hillsborough people, and the point about if there had been seating only in 1989, it wouldn't have happened. That's true, but they are comparing apples with oranges.
Nobody is suggesting a return to the form of standing we had back then. And rightly so.
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I am behind safe standing areas 100%. It will mean I can sit down without my view being obscured by some inconsiderate individual in front of me insisting on standing throughout the game in an area where they are legally obliged to be seated.
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Say what you like about West Ham fans but a bloke took his two small kids to the front in the second half of our recent game. The blokes who were there moved over and let them see the game.
That's better than knobheads standing in front of our disabled fans, in wheelchairs, at many of our games.
The Bullens Road Lower is ideal to convert back. It is still the old terrace with seats on top. The rake of the seats makes it difficult, especially at our corner, from seeing the game.
The whole issue has rarely been dealt with properly by clubs. Some stands, especially in upper tiers, have a good seated view. Others don't.
I agree with this initiative, providing they enforce sitting down in the remaining seats.
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Well I'll go out on a limb here and disagree with the 'and rightly so' sentiments regarding standing along the previous style.Why shouldn't terraces return in some description? I'd love to have terraces as they were but realise that's unlikely to happen. People haven't died because of terraces the same way that the Hillsborough 96 didn't die because of alcohol or fans not having tickets.
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Grauniad (http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/feb/12/aston-villa-bristol-city-rail-seats)
Aston Villa give their backing to Bristol City's rail seats plan
• Only rugby at Ashton Gate can use standing areas
• Villa open to giving standing idea a chance in Premier League
Press Association
theguardian.com, Wednesday 12 February 2014 20.32 GMT
Aston Villa would be keen to trial the use of rail seats to help promote the introduction of safe standing in the Premier League.
Villa's football operations manager, Lee Preece, was at Bristol City's Ashton Gate where a block of rail seats, which can be flipped into an upright position to create rows of standing areas, were installed at an English football ground for the first time.
Legislation means that when more rails seats are installed as part of City's redevelopment, only Bristol rugby supporters will be able to use them. Having watched a demonstration of the seats in action, Preece said that Villa are keen to adopt the system.
"We at Aston Villa have said we are quite happy to use an area of Villa Park as a trial so the Premier League, the authorities and the government can see a safe standing area in practice," he said.
"A survey carried out earlier in the year surveyed over 1000 of our supporters and in the region of 96-97% wanted to see a return of standing areas.
"I'd like to think it could happen in the Premier League. The main thing from Villa's perspective is we have put our head above the parapet simply to further the debate - We think people should be looking at it.
"There are clearly lots of sensitive issues and debates at high level that needs to take place if we are to get to a point where legislation can change.
"But it is the sensible and practical solution to an issue that exists in football at the moment. There is still work to do but lets have those discussions and see if we can't make it happen."
Preece believes one of the key factors behind his club's openness to change is the problems they have with supporters who persistently stand.
"Like most Premier League clubs we suffer at the moment with persistent standing in seating areas in certain parts of the ground," he said. "It would be safe to say that the vast majority of away fans at Villa Park this season have stood up and don't want to sit down, I don't think any Premier League club to my knowledge has any success with various tactics that get people to sit down. We feel there are clearly thousands of people who want to stand up and so lets do it in something which is designed for standing."
The Football Supporters' Federation has long been an advocate of rail-seating and their chairman, Malcolm Clarke said the green light from the Football League's 72 clubs at their meeting last week is a big step forward.
"What we were often told for many years is that none of the football authorities were in favour of it," he said. "But that is clearly no longer the case as the Football League, after a very thorough consultation, have shown that a large majority are in favour.
"We hope that the Premier League now, at the appropriate time, will consider this. There are a number of Premier League clubs who are openly in favour and then we can take the debate forward. It has been really useful to see rail seats installed in a proper football stadium."
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Say what you like about West Ham fans but a bloke took his two small kids to the front in the second half of our recent game. The blokes who were there moved over and let them see the game.
That's better than knobheads standing in front of our disabled fans, in wheelchairs, at many of our games.
The Bullens Road Lower is ideal to convert back. It is still the old terrace with seats on top. The rake of the seats makes it difficult, especially at our corner, from seeing the game.
The whole issue has rarely been dealt with properly by clubs. Some stands, especially in upper tiers, have a good seated view. Others don't.
I agree with this initiative, providing they enforce sitting down in the remaining seats.
That will be the next issue when it does get introduced. It will probably start with a small standing section which will be over-subscribed and result in the standing area grow until the right balance is found.
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Link to article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnden_Park_disaster)
Blimey, this is shocking: "The dead and injured were taken from the stand, with those who had perished lain along the touchline and covered in coats. A little under half an hour after leaving the pitch, the game was restarted, with a new sawdust lined touchline separating the players from the bodies. At the end of the first-half, the players immediately changed ends and started the second half. Stanley Matthews was on the Stoke team, and later said he was sickened that the game was allowed to continue."
Has the attitude to death changed over time or something? That's quite amazing given current attitudes.
It is amazing OCD.
Knew nothing about this and it reads with such a cold-hearted disrespect for the dead.
My earlier point is that if you keep referring to the emotional aspect of an incident then rational discussion cannot take place. Of course, we all feel sympathy for those who have suffered, but the point is to make it better not abandon something altogether. Safe standing is not a return to terracing as we knew it - that's the whole point - it's SAFE standing - not let's ignore what happend and carry on regardless, but let's consider caqrefully what happened and see how we can make it better.
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I was stood on the stairs last night, as were quite a few others. I am not sure if some people had jibbed in, as my seats were occupied and the people who were stood in my seats said their seats had been taken as well.
If we had scored, we would have gone piling down the stairs I would imagine.
Because of that I went down to the front on 90 minutes so I could escape into the concourse on the final whistle. Those stairwells were quite tight for a new ground.
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I am behind safe standing areas 100%. It will mean I can sit down without my view being obscured by some inconsiderate individual in front of me insisting on standing throughout the game in an area where they are legally obliged to be seated.
Agreed. What I'd like to see, especially at away games, is dedicated seating areas. I'm only short and have some health problems and standing for 90 minutes, without seeing a wretched thing without bobbing up and down, is an absolute pain in the backside.
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Say what you like about West Ham fans but a bloke took his two small kids to the front in the second half of our recent game. The blokes who were there moved over and let them see the game.
That's better than knobheads standing in front of our disabled fans, in wheelchairs, at many of our games.
The Bullens Road Lower is ideal to convert back. It is still the old terrace with seats on top. The rake of the seats makes it difficult, especially at our corner, from seeing the game.
The whole issue has rarely been dealt with properly by clubs. Some stands, especially in upper tiers, have a good seated view. Others don't.
I agree with this initiative, providing they enforce sitting down in the remaining seats.
When amfy and I did the survey before the Spurs game, when we had the Safe-Standing mock-up, some of the first to approach us and lend full support were two elderly ladies who attend a fair few away games. They wanted safe-standing so that those who stand in front of them, and force them to stand up so they can see the game, can do so, and that the ladies in question can sit and still see the game. In many ways that gets to the heart of the issue - choice.
If you prefer to stand, you can - legally and safely. If you prefer to sit, you can, and still see the game without getting pi**ed off with your own supporters.
Standing in all-seated areas is "illegal" and a potentially dangerous situation. Fact.
(but as I like/want to stand, like most of us who go to away games, I always stand, "unsafely"! I am NOT a role model for those who aspire to be perfect fans!)
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Link to article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnden_Park_disaster)
Blimey, this is shocking: "The dead and injured were taken from the stand, with those who had perished lain along the touchline and covered in coats. A little under half an hour after leaving the pitch, the game was restarted, with a new sawdust lined touchline separating the players from the bodies. At the end of the first-half, the players immediately changed ends and started the second half. Stanley Matthews was on the Stoke team, and later said he was sickened that the game was allowed to continue."
Has the attitude to death changed over time or something? That's quite amazing given current attitudes.
Maybe it was because it was just after ww2 and not that long after ww1 that the loss of 33 lives wasn't as shocking back then as 96 were after hillsborough.
Still astounding that the game continued though.
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Premier League oppose safe standing:
http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/9164186/?
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Man Utd back safe standing:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2559732/Hillsborough-victims-group-emotional-plea-Manchester-United-safe-return-terraces.html
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Fairly interesting printed debate on the issue between Alistair Campbell and Danny Kelly here (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/15/safe-standing-football-matches-bristol-city)
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I am behind safe standing areas 100%. It will mean I can sit down without my view being obscured by some inconsiderate individual in front of me insisting on standing throughout the game in an area where they are legally obliged to be seated.
Agreed. What I'd like to see, especially at away games, is dedicated seating areas. I'm only short and have some health problems and standing for 90 minutes, without seeing a wretched thing without bobbing up and down, is an absolute pain in the backside.
Is that what will happen though? Will those in seated areas suddenly convert to model fans who do as they are told?
Also, if we take Villa Park as an example how would you incorporate a safe standing area for away fans? I'm all for giving it a go but, at the majority of grounds, I don't think it is going to be straightforward to implement.
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Patrick Collins view in the DM:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2560296/PATRICK-COLLINS-Football-standing-chance-game-struck-tragedy.html
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I am behind safe standing areas 100%. It will mean I can sit down without my view being obscured by some inconsiderate individual in front of me insisting on standing throughout the game in an area where they are legally obliged to be seated.
Agreed. What I'd like to see, especially at away games, is dedicated seating areas. I'm only short and have some health problems and standing for 90 minutes, without seeing a wretched thing without bobbing up and down, is an absolute pain in the backside.
Is that what will happen though? Will those in seated areas suddenly convert to model fans who do as they are told?
Also, if we take Villa Park as an example how would you incorporate a safe standing area for away fans? I'm all for giving it a go but, at the majority of grounds, I don't think it is going to be straightforward to implement.
Could they keep the current away area, with the lower tier standing and the upper tier seated? Probably easier said than done!
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If you follow that one through though, Nat, the fans in the seats next to the standing area are going to have part of the pitch blocked out unless they stand too.
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If you follow that one through though, Nat, the fans in the seats next to the standing area are going to have part of the pitch blocked out unless they stand too.
The away fans there often stand anyway and doesn't seem to be a problem to the Villa fans next to them. Maybe that segregation tarp is wide enough that standing doesn't block the view?
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I agree with that Patrick Whathisface. Sooner or later they'll be a serious accident in an away section. I've taken a few tumbles down the steps myself on a few occasions, whether it's from fans piling on you from behind or if you're stood in a 'seat' next to the isle and we score a goal. It got quite hairy at the Sty a few years ago after Gabby scored in The League Cup.
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I remember our first visit to the new Leicester ground. The stands are very steep, not having formerly been terraces, and, with everyone standing there, you found yourself about two feet higher than the person in front. When we scored, they all pushed forward and it was difficult to stop ourselves from being pushed over. The new initiative has a lot of promise but will not work everywhere, unless the backs to the new style seats incorporate a high cross piece that prevents people being pushed over.
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Vote Lib-Dem! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/28886330)
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Vote Lib-Dem! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/28886330)
Sold!
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I remember our first visit to the new Leicester ground. The stands are very steep, not having formerly been terraces, and, with everyone standing there, you found yourself about two feet higher than the person in front. When we scored, they all pushed forward and it was difficult to stop ourselves from being pushed over. The new initiative has a lot of promise but will not work everywhere, unless the backs to the new style seats incorporate a high cross piece that prevents people being pushed over.
It does.
......and I won't be voting Lib Dem as you can't trust them to deliver know their promises anyway.
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That's the thing with the Lib Dems. Not getting political BUT they won't get into power so can say whatever they like. Big policies can get jettisoned if the bigger party they go into (at best) in a coalition with really don't agree with them. Where does this rank? If the Tories or Labour do not agree with the policy then say goodbye to it.
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peter w, there's quite a bit of cross party support for safe standing to at least be given a trial.
In fact there's a private members bill going through the House of Commons now but I doubt it will reach the vote stage before the next election.
However the Lib Dem policy announcement has certainly pushed the idea further up the political agenda and none of the other parties have come out to pooh pooh the idea.
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The thing is, it's highly likely to be another hung parliament next year so the Lib Dems will once again be in a coalition. This is just the sort of bill that they could persuade whoever they go into power with to push through.
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The thing is, it's highly likely to be another hung parliament next year so the Lib Dems will once again be in a coalition. This is just the sort of bill that they could persuade whoever they go into power with to push through.
Like Tuition Fees? I wouldn't trust a word they say.
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The thing is, it's highly likely to be another hung parliament next year so the Lib Dems will once again be in a coalition. This is just the sort of bill that they could persuade whoever they go into power with to push through.
Like Tuition Fees? I wouldn't trust a word they say.
Their stance on tuition fees obviously didn't have all party support. Whereas this idea despite the short sighted misgivings of some does have a fair measure of cross party support.
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The thing is, it's highly likely to be another hung parliament next year so the Lib Dems will once again be in a coalition. This is just the sort of bill that they could persuade whoever they go into power with to push through.
Like Tuition Fees? I wouldn't trust a word they say.
Their stance on tuition fees obviously didn't have all party support. Whereas this idea despite the short sighted misgivings of some does have a fair measure of cross party support.
cross party from the back becnhes is a million miles away from it becoming law.
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The thing is, it's highly likely to be another hung parliament next year so the Lib Dems will once again be in a coalition. This is just the sort of bill that they could persuade whoever they go into power with to push through.
Like Tuition Fees? I wouldn't trust a word they say.
Their stance on tuition fees obviously didn't have all party support. Whereas this idea despite the short sighted misgivings of some does have a fair measure of cross party support.
cross party from the back becnhes is a million miles away from it becoming law.
But it's pressure from the back benches in parliament that sometimes brings about a change in the law.
And where does that pressure come from? Us the voters, if you keep on to your constituency MP about this it will eventually register with the powers that be that changes need to be made.
Can I also point out that it isn't illegal to stand at football matches. It's only a contravention of local authority ground license rules. Most of which say that 'persistent standing' is in contravention of the license. You can't be arrested for standing, but you can be ejected from the ground and if you persist in standing you could be facing a ban from the ground.
So in reality it only needs one local authority to amend it's ground licensing rules and allow safe standing in a designated part of the ground for it to happen.
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Celtics been given permission to install a safe standing area in time for the 2016/17 season.
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Celtics been given permission to install a safe standing area in time for the 2016/17 season.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/33061483
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Good stuff.
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I heard this on the news in the car and thought great, it's on the way. Well done Amfy, Frank et. al.
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I heard this on the news in the car and thought great, it's on the way. Well done Amfy, Frank et. al.
Still a long way to go Louzie0!
Been quiet for a while, but it's on its way - just a matter of time!
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Surprising that Celtic are one of the first to do it given how they seem to model themselves on Liverpool.
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Surprising that Celtic are one of the first to do it given how they seem to model themselves on Liverpool.
Hardly anyone sits down at Celtic matches! I don't know why as they are hardly that exciting.