Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: ozzjim on June 23, 2013, 12:10:06 PM
-
Couple of thoughts for a slow Sunday....
Following the success of our kids in the next gen, who do we think will emerge from that side/ beyond in the next 12 months to become a part of the squad in the way Baker, Clark, Gabby and Weimann etc have.
Secondly, looking through the U20 England squad, there is not 1 Villa player in it. Are they not good enough for that level, or are we being overlooked in a ridiculous way considering we just won the next gen beating Arsenal and Chelsea etc in the process?
-
Carruthers, Grealish and Gardner.
-
Couple of thoughts for a slow Sunday....
Following the success of our kids in the next gen, who do we think will emerge from that side/ beyond in the next 12 months to become a part of the squad in the way Baker, Clark, Gabby and Weimann etc have.
Secondly, looking through the U20 England squad, there is not 1 Villa player in it. Are they not good enough for that level, or are we being overlooked in a ridiculous way considering we just won the next gen beating Arsenal and Chelsea etc in the process?
Our best players are all Irish;-)
-
Also, does PL think they're good enough, as he's just signed 5 young players as it is?
-
Interesting debate this one. It can't have escaped anyone's attention that Westwood, Lowton, Benteke, Sylla, Delph and Weimann (though he joined early) have all been a couple of levels higher than the likes of Clark, Delfouneso, Baker (though that's a bit closer) Albrighton, Bannan, Herd and Lichaj, despite being similar ages.
Now that might be in part because they've had more experience, and just as Gardner, Ridgewell, Cahill have gone on to be premier league players elsewhere, perhaps some of those above will too. I think Baker and then Clark are the best bets.I don't see it with the others.
Are we saying that the current lot are more highly rated than the crop that featured the names above? I'm not sure we are, are we? Other observers will be better placed to comment.
From what I've seen, there isn't one of them who's clearly so good that you just "know" like I did the first time I saw Rooney. But that's a high bar!
Gardner seems the highest rated. He'll need to recover from two big injuries, and from what I've seen he needs to get quite a bit better in terms of passing and the quickness of his feet. But then Craig didn't look great at that age.
Otherwise, from the very limited amounts I've seen, I'd probably plump for Jordan Graham, as he has skills and pace. Grealish has lovely close control, but I'm not sure what type of player he'd be in the premier league. Although I think he's very young still.
Callum Robinson impressed me in the nextgen, much more than Burke. Not really seen Drennan play. I used to like the look of Daniel Johnson, but he's not really getting any first team chances. Not sure about Carruthers.
The problem is that reserve team football is bloody awful in this country. I'd be in favour of putting a lot of them out on loan, as Spurs have done. Then we'll see who sinks and who swims.
It might entirely unfair, but I get the general impression that many of the kids coming out of our academy are a bit soft on the mental side?
-
Any chance of a decent centre half? Also, we haven't bought through a GK for a while.
-
Any chance of a decent centre half?
There is supposed to be one very good centre half - Donaecon or something like that.
-
Any chance of a decent centre half?
There is supposed to be one very good centre half - Donaecon or something like that.
Let's hope he's better than Clark or Baker
-
Derrick Williams perhaps?
He actually came on at QPR and was on the bench at the end of last season. You know Vlaar and especially Baker will miss games through injury next season.
-
Derrick Williams perhaps?
He actually came on at QPR and was on the bench at the end of last season. You know Vlaar and especially Baker will miss games through injury next season.
Was released last week.
-
Isn't that just like Carrauthers and Burke in that he'll sign next week?
-
Derrick Williams perhaps?
He actually came on at QPR and was on the bench at the end of last season. You know Vlaar and especially Baker will miss games through injury next season.
Baker's injuries are likely to be concussions with the way he keeps putting his head into places where others are kicking.
I've thought for years that we don't get enough of our kids in decent season-long, playing most games, type of loans. Is that because we've been holding onto them (probably yes in recent years with such a small squad) or is it because clubs aren't particularly interested in some of them? For how well heralded our youth system is, their doesn't tend to be many individuals talents. Weimann's probably the only one of the recent batch. Our successes at youth levels tend to be because we're good at putting teams together at that level. I really hope we can raise the standard of individual talents as well building the teams and that we develop them ready for 1st team football by getting them one or two season long loans where they're playing regularly.
-
No I think with Derrick Williams he has actually gone.
-
Donacien is very promising but maybe needs a loan season or two to really progress.
Otherwise the mot likely new kids off he back are Carruthers, Johnson, Burke, Drennan, Grealish and of course Siegrist.
There's always the chance a couple players might just advance ahead of schedule and come through earlier than expected. The likes of Robinson, Graham, Donacien, Webb even Sellars. Never an exact
-
The pre-season friendlies should be a good marker for which will be included and which are going to push on.
-
I've been making a big deal about him since the next gen but I firmly believe Robinson is the one to watch, he's got everything you want for a striker playing as the left of a 3 (gabby's position). Great control, quick, strong, can pass, can cross, is 2 footed and can turn and shoot on either and drags defenders out of their comfort zones. His weakness is his finishing but that can be worked on, I think he'll be a bit special in a few years.
-
Also, does PL think they're good enough, as he's just signed 5 young players as it is?
I think that Lambert's signing of 5 young talents should actually encourage the youngsters that are already here. The signings represent some immediate needs for positional strength and creates competition for places.
If the club truly aspires to a bright future Lamberts plans to raise the footballing standards of the club and academy overall should attract a higher quality of player to the club.
A club that wants to be competitive for a generation and not just one off seasons has to be constantly keep improving. I believe that we will see Lambert constantly bringing in young players.
Those that succeed will play, those that dont live up to their expectations will find a club that fits their ability. Lichaj is one such player. A player with a lot of talent but not enough at this time to justify keeping him when there are other options available.
Equally, the five young players that have been signed also have to stake a claim for a place on the squad. Those who are good enough will stay and those who fall short will move on.
Of course some of them will have Spuds and Arsenal sniffing around like a fly around a day old sausage! If we get 40M for a few of them and Lambert keeps finding new jewels the club should become successful and profitable and we as fans ought to expect to enjoy considerably better football than we have for a good many seasons.
-
Donacien seemed the best of our young players to me, although Grealish is good and only about 17 I think.
-
Donacien seemed the best of our young players to me, although Grealish is good and only about 17 I think.
I do like both of them and I think Grealish will become an excellent midfielder, he's got lovely quick feet and is deceptively quick, big comparison coming here but I think he can be like Seedorf if he progresses well, he just has an elegance about him that is very rare, particularly in English players.
-
Donacien seemed the best of our young players to me, although Grealish is good and only about 17 I think.
I do like both of them and I think Grealish will become an excellent midfielder, he's got lovely quick feet and is deceptively quick, big comparison coming here but I think he can be like Seedorf if he progresses well, he just has an elegance about him that is very rare, particularly in English players.
Being a pedant but I think Grealish is Irish.
Donacien is St. Lucian, can't think of any players we've had from there before.
-
Donacien seemed the best of our young players to me, although Grealish is good and only about 17 I think.
I do like both of them and I think Grealish will become an excellent midfielder, he's got lovely quick feet and is deceptively quick, big comparison coming here but I think he can be like Seedorf if he progresses well, he just has an elegance about him that is very rare, particularly in English players.
Being a pedant but I think Grealish is Irish.
Donacien is St. Lucian, can't think of any players we've had from there before.
Sorry, that should have read players brought through English clubs, that's what I actually meant.
-
Derrick Williams perhaps?
He actually came on at QPR and was on the bench at the end of last season. You know Vlaar and especially Baker will miss games through injury next season.
Baker's injuries are likely to be concussions with the way he keeps putting his head into places where others are kicking.
I've thought for years that we don't get enough of our kids in decent season-long, playing most games, type of loans. Is that because we've been holding onto them (probably yes in recent years with such a small squad) or is it because clubs aren't particularly interested in some of them? For how well heralded our youth system is, their doesn't tend to be many individuals talents. Weimann's probably the only one of the recent batch. Our successes at youth levels tend to be because we're good at putting teams together at that level. I really hope we can raise the standard of individual talents as well building the teams and that we develop them ready for 1st team football by getting them one or two season long loans where they're playing regularly.
I've been saying for a long time that maybe the emphasis is wrong in our youth set up, too much stress on producing good youth teams that win trophies and not enough on developing top, mentally strong individual players with great technique. I'm not sure Southampton have won many youth competitions but they have managed to produce much better individual players over the last few years.
-
It's pretty difficult to pinpoint how/where we going wrong though as cosching an individual or team still requires good coaching.
However I do think we under use the loan system choosing to keep the players in house rather than letting them play real matches.
-
Derrick Williams perhaps?
He actually came on at QPR and was on the bench at the end of last season. You know Vlaar and especially Baker will miss games through injury next season.
Baker's injuries are likely to be concussions with the way he keeps putting his head into places where others are kicking.
I've thought for years that we don't get enough of our kids in decent season-long, playing most games, type of loans. Is that because we've been holding onto them (probably yes in recent years with such a small squad) or is it because clubs aren't particularly interested in some of them? For how well heralded our youth system is, their doesn't tend to be many individuals talents. Weimann's probably the only one of the recent batch. Our successes at youth levels tend to be because we're good at putting teams together at that level. I really hope we can raise the standard of individual talents as well building the teams and that we develop them ready for 1st team football by getting them one or two season long loans where they're playing regularly.
I've been saying for a long time that maybe the emphasis is wrong in our youth set up, too much stress on producing good youth teams that win trophies and not enough on developing top, mentally strong individual players with great technique. I'm not sure Southampton have won many youth competitions but they have managed to produce much better individual players over the last few years.
I don't think that's the case. Our problem for a long time has been that our youth teams have been setup to play in a specific way, right the way up to the reserves, but our first team hasn't played that type of football before, so they come through and look lost. We've had a massive disconnect between the first team and the club for a while, I think Lambert has us playing football more suited to them now though, so I'm optimistic that our young prospects will have a better time of it from here on.
-
Sounds like we have some good 17-18 year old players coming through. I guess though, Lambert will work them in slowly over the next 2-3 years. They'll start becoming more involved when they're in their early 20's, that age that Lambo's young signings tend to be. They're young yes, but they've normally had a good amount of playing time at their clubs before they join.
I think for some of these lads it'll be beneficial to get them out on loans whilst they're 18 or so. Get them play pro footy at a good level to see how they cope. There's only so much you can learn from seeing players at youth or reserve level. Some of our players who've come through and have now hit that sort of 23-24 age could have done with a little more loan time in their younger days. It could have helped to get. When Alby and Bannan were first breaking in they were kept around the squad but not used much, aside from the Wafer Cup which didn't help much. O Neill could have worked them in a bit better, or sent them on loan earlier, which would have been more beneficial. Alby hasn't been on loan yet. I think that may have hurt him slightly. BB had a decent season at Blackpool, and a few shorter stints but perhaps a more substantial loan a bit earlier might have helped him a bit more. Even at Pool he only played 22 games. Obviously we can't guarantee a player loaned out will play every game, but maybe going League 1 or 2 at 18 might have helped, where he'd be more likely to get 30-40 appearences.
Get some of these lads out playing as regular as possible at 18. If we call on them at 20 they'll be more ready. If they don't make the grade in the end, so be it. Most of our youngens will still manage a solid career at L1, or the Championship you'd imagine.
-
What's really important is that none of these kids are asked to play first team football for us at PL level unless they are truly ready to do so. Ideally they have served a proper apprenticeship at a club lower down to adjust their body and mind to the rigours of the professional game. We only want the truly exceptional to come through and not players that come through, shine briefly and disappear. We've had enough of those.
-
I think the club is lacking a bit of strategic vision here. We should buddy up with a club and send a good number of our youth players to them. Swindon was suggested previously and they do seem a good fit with KMac in charge.
-
I agree on both of those, finding a couple of clubs we can link up with to loan out 1-2 each year would be perfect. Maybe Swindon can be one of them and I'd love to get something together with a dutch or german club as well, in fact screw it, the club can ask me to try to get hold of someone at Brann if they like, it's probably about L2 level. If the kids can play away from home they'd get plenty of game time (Brann's league record is 7 in 7 at home and 0 in 6 away so far this year).
-
We just produce a lot of average players. No real top drawer players, in my opinion.
-
A pal of mine who follows Bristol City has told me today that they're signing Derrick Williams on a permanent deal.
I think that would be a great signing for them, and shows that Derrick Williams' ambition to play 1st team football.
-
Derrick Williams perhaps?
He actually came on at QPR and was on the bench at the end of last season. You know Vlaar and especially Baker will miss games through injury next season.
Baker's injuries are likely to be concussions with the way he keeps putting his head into places where others are kicking.
I've thought for years that we don't get enough of our kids in decent season-long, playing most games, type of loans. Is that because we've been holding onto them (probably yes in recent years with such a small squad) or is it because clubs aren't particularly interested in some of them? For how well heralded our youth system is, their doesn't tend to be many individuals talents. Weimann's probably the only one of the recent batch. Our successes at youth levels tend to be because we're good at putting teams together at that level. I really hope we can raise the standard of individual talents as well building the teams and that we develop them ready for 1st team football by getting them one or two season long loans where they're playing regularly.
I've been saying for a long time that maybe the emphasis is wrong in our youth set up, too much stress on producing good youth teams that win trophies and not enough on developing top, mentally strong individual players with great technique. I'm not sure Southampton have won many youth competitions but they have managed to produce much better individual players over the last few years.
I don't think that's the case. Our problem for a long time has been that our youth teams have been setup to play in a specific way, right the way up to the reserves, but our first team hasn't played that type of football before, so they come through and look lost. We've had a massive disconnect between the first team and the club for a while, I think Lambert has us playing football more suited to them now though, so I'm optimistic that our young prospects will have a better time of it from here on.
A consistent approach from top to bottom makes sense, but for me genuinely good players with mental strength and sound technique should be able to adapt to any system and not look lost.
-
We just produce a lot of average players. No real top drawer players, in my opinion.
It's all very well saying that but how would we improve the situation?
-
We just produce a lot of average players. No real top drawer players, in my opinion.
that's the problem. Many of the players are brought through out of neccessity as opposed to strictly on merit. if we were a league one club then that's a different story. You have to do it out of neccessity. As a PL club only the very best should make it through at this level. It is up to the player to prove he deserves to beat out an established first team player to that spot. For too long we have talked up the young kids for them then to not sustain their development. I believe Lambert will be trying to change that. It should be hard work breaking through.
-
We just produce a lot of average players. No real top drawer players, in my opinion.
It's all very well saying that but how would we improve the situation?
Not my area, I'm afraid. There are people qualified to sort that out 8)
-
We just produce a lot of average players. No real top drawer players, in my opinion.
It's all very well saying that but how would we improve the situation?
Not my area, I'm afraid. There are people qualified to sort that out 8)
There's a whole heap of room between top drawer and average. Solid premier league player being the target. If we can get 1 player a season who comes through as a viable squad option we're ahead of the game, keep them all in the squad and after 10 years the best part of half your squad is home grown players who are good enough to be part of the squad and your spending on transfer fees can be a lot more focused.
Barcelona serve as a great example of why joined up coaching at all levels is the key to this conveyer belt approach (let the top drawer take care of itself to an extent). Because they have a club ethos and appoint staff at all levels to buy into that players are all ready to come in and perform. The vast majority are from within a small region of spain, there isn't likely to be a genetic reason for that much talent in a small area so you have to credit the coaching and scouting teams. Once you accept that anyone outside the top 50 or so players in the world are largely where they are due to attitude and coaching as much as skill then you can start to build around training players from as early as possible to play in a way that you want them to play. Get that right as a club and, like Man U in recent years, you can bring through players who would be considered average at most clubs, but are part of a successful premier league winning squad on a consistent basis.
-
We just produce a lot of average players. No real top drawer players, in my opinion.
that's the problem. Many of the players are brought through out of neccessity as opposed to strictly on merit. if we were a league one club then that's a different story. You have to do it out of neccessity. As a PL club only the very best should make it through at this level. It is up to the player to prove he deserves to beat out an established first team player to that spot. For too long we have talked up the young kids for them then to not sustain their development. I believe Lambert will be trying to change that. It should be hard work breaking through.
I'm sure I read that we take on far less kids than most other Premier League teams, only taking on the brightest prospects. Most PL clubs just take on and then discard (for want of a better word) loads of youngsters.
-
We just produce a lot of average players. No real top drawer players, in my opinion.
that's the problem. Many of the players are brought through out of neccessity as opposed to strictly on merit. if we were a league one club then that's a different story. You have to do it out of neccessity. As a PL club only the very best should make it through at this level. It is up to the player to prove he deserves to beat out an established first team player to that spot. For too long we have talked up the young kids for them then to not sustain their development. I believe Lambert will be trying to change that. It should be hard work breaking through.
I'm sure I read that we take on far less kids than most other Premier League teams, only taking on the brightest prospects. Most PL clubs just take on and then discard (for want of a better word) loads of youngsters.
which if true is even worse considering how few actually make it at the club
-
With reference to paul-e's conveyour belt comment above, without too much grey matter I can think of the following players who have through the ranks (to some extent) since 2005 (the year listed for Gabby's debut on wiki):
1. Gabby (unnecessary player purchased - Harewood?)
2. Cahill (Zat Knight?)
3. Ridgwell (Shorey?)
4. S. Moore (Bowery?)
5. Guzan (Given?)
6. Weimann (Nzogbia? - bit harsh)
7. Baker
8. Clark
9. C Gardner (Sidwell?)
That's not a bad list for 8-years work as they're all still playing PL football for us and other established clubs. Arguably they could all still be with us if we'd previously had managers who were more prepared to blood youngsters.
Whilst that is a pretty simplistic analysis it suggests that we're not far off, especially if the quality improves as the benefit of the training complex and some sort of continuity/combined thinking occurs at the club.
-
We actually got Ridgewell from West Ham and Guzan from Chivas in MLS. So that's 7 at most which is crap really.
-
I'd add:-
Davis (Southampton)
Whittingham (Cardiff City)
Troy Deeney (Watford)
DJ Campbell (??)
Lichaj (Nottingham Forest)
Campbell and Deeney may have picked up more from other academies than us though.
-
We actually got Ridgewell from West Ham and Guzan from Chivas in MLS. So that's 7 at most which is crap really.
Do you think 7 premiership quality players in 8 years is crap? Of course the quality could be better but I wouldn't call it crap.
-
We actually got Ridgewell from West Ham and Guzan from Chivas in MLS. So that's 7 at most which is crap really.
Do you think 7 premiership quality players in 8 years is crap? Of course the quality could be better but I wouldn't call it crap.
I do. Especially when you consider from that list only Gabby and Cahill are proven quality at that level. Weimann has only done it for one full year. All the others are remarkably average or with some the jury is still out as to whether they will actually make it.
-
I do like the look of Donacien from what i've seen of him. He'll be ok i reckon.
-
I do like the look of Donacien from what i've seen of him. He'll be ok i reckon.
Too soon to tell, we have had players down the years who looked the part in youth team matches but faded as they developed and fell by the wayside- if we get 3 or 4 of the many promising youngsters to develop into the first team then that will be excellent.
-
The best lot from our academy (whether here from very young or poached from others like Ridgewell) over the years are probably the lot that O Leary broke through. Whether it was for want of better players or not, he still gave a lot of players their debuts and a good crack at the first team. I think getting thrown in early, and put in and out the team has helped them stay at a good level since.
I'm think of Gabby, Luke Moore, Whitts (he's well overdue a return to the Prem), Davis, Ridgewell, Cahill, Craig Gardner.
Because O Leary broke them in, it's benefited them in their careers over the years, whether they remained here that long or not.
O Neill didn't do enough. Who did he break through? Delfouneso. Osbourne. They're not as good as their slightly older counterparts. His perogative was always to sign older, more established players on high wages for silly fees. I mean Harewood and Heskey? Would we not have got more goals showing more faith in Luke Moore? Later Fonzie perhaps and giving Andreas his debut sooner? Probably.
Sidwell in midfield. I'm sure we'd have got just as much from Craig Gardner, Steve Davis.
Lets not even start the Cahill debate again. I mean some of the center halves we've signed have been very average. Cahill now plays for Chelsea. Even Ridgewell is pretty reliable now. I believe had O Neill stayed in charge, Clark and Baker wouldn't be in the first 18. I know we've all debated their quality endlessly, but had they been eased in a little better, earlier, with more sensible management, they might have been better now.
I think this is why we'll be better set up to get more out of our academy with Lambert here. Perhaps once he's got his squad as he wants it and we're a bit more settled, higher up the league, he'll start easing in our 17-20 year old young players. The odd 20 mins here and there in the league. The odd league cup game. A few months out on loan when we've got no fitness concerns and they might not figure. Send them out to places with a similar ethos to ourselves, and where they'll be likely to feature regularly.
I personally don't think enough was done to help the likes of Bannan, Albrighton etc when they first got to pro terms. The one player I think O Neill just about did alright by was Fonzy, and even then he should have done more. As such I think in some cases, players are hitting 23-24 now, and they're not up to scratch. A bit more experience earlier to help their development, and more game time on loan and they might have been better for it. Whether or not the current youth generation, with all it's buzz, the likes of Grealish, Robinson etc make it remains to be seen. We need to give them their chance though. We need them to be playing in proper matches. There's no good leaving them in the reserves until they're 21 and if they're lucky having 20 games on loan somewhere at some point.
I believe it's probably in part why despite us having a good amount of young players in the 21-25 age range when Lambert came on board, he went out and bought Westwood, Lowton, Bennett from lower leagues. They'd all played a lot of matches despite they're age. Even Bowery has played something nearing 100 games now (including us). We've relied on Baker a lot this season despite him not featuring too much for us previously. O Neill seemed to rate Clark as a potentially great defender in the making but never really played him. He was young, but he could have been eased in. We were a top 6 side back then. We were quite good. How hard would it have been to give him 30 minutes in a game we're 2-0 up say?
A lot of people here over the years have been very excited about certain players on the cusp of the seniors. People raved about Bannan. They raved about Albrighton, the Moores, Fonzie. They weren't handled well enough and things in most cases fizzled out. In an ideal world, all our young starlets would get the Agbonlahor start. I mean before him and since there have been far more naturally gifted players than him but he's been a regular pretty much since the tail end of O Leary's reign, because we played him, because we let him develop with us, and because we didn't just give up on him during the quiet patches.
This season is key. I think it may be too late for Bannan. Lichaj has gone. I think Fonzy will go too. Alby is on last chance saloon now. But for the group who are around the 20 mark, who could be good enough, we need to get them featuring a little more. It's a key season for guys like Johnson, Gary Gardner etc. Baker and Clark will hopefully kick up a level, or we have to look to whos working up behind them in the youths. Cut out silly errors in both cases, and they'll improve a hell of a lot right there. That shouldn't be difficult.
-
Derrick Williams has signed for Bristol City.
-
Derrick Williams has signed for Bristol City.
Nice piece about him on the transfer thread.
-
We actually got Ridgewell from West Ham and Guzan from Chivas in MLS. So that's 7 at most which is crap really.
Do you think 7 premiership quality players in 8 years is crap? Of course the quality could be better but I wouldn't call it crap.
I do. Especially when you consider from that list only Gabby and Cahill are proven quality at that level. Weimann has only done it for one full year. All the others are remarkably average or with some the jury is still out as to whether they will actually make it.
It isn't crap, though.
I think there's a disconnect between what fans think is good for home grown players and what clubs do, almost as if they measure everything against Man United's "golden generation" of the mid 1990s.
I saw something about academies recently, and ours were saying that if they produce a player every year or so who carries on to become a regular PL footballer, they consider it a success. Don't forget, they don't need to do that for us, necessarily, as there is value in them when we sell them on.
Taking two of them from recent years. Craig Gardner, for example, unspectacular player, but we sold him for 3.5m. Gary Cahill we sold for 5.5m. In the transfer world that's "only" 9m, but that is for two players who cost nothing, who we developed as kids, and who played for our first team. £9m goes a very long way indeed in running an academy.
Then there's the fact that the academy also produced our record PL goalscorer who has played for us 250 times and scored over 60 goals.
Ignoring all the other products of recent years, that alone is a very good return, and that's before even looking at the fact that last season alone, Clark, Baker, Bannan, Herd, Weimann and Lichaj from the Academy all played for the first team.
I genuinely think that, compared to other PL clubs, our Academy does exceptionally well.
-
I disagree. I think we produce and introduce players more out need than merit and for the most part they go on to be distinctly average. Irrespective of how much we get from their sale, and good for us as a club for getting that money, how many of them go on to be excellent players that given how good our academy is, you'd think we would have a lot more? I don't need to compare to Man U to make my case. How about Southampton as an example who have had a string of top young players come through. West Ham for a while produced a number of players that have really excelled in the game. Who of all the players we have produced have gone on to be real stars in the game, whether with us or anyone else? Practically none. They go on to have average or decent careers, and the odd one or two have very good careers. I think that can be said for the majority of clubs. Given how excellent our academy is or is meant to be we should have a better return at the top end in my opinion.
We need to get to the point where the first team is strong and the kids coming through need to be exceptional to break through. That they have been on loan, proved their worth and been introduced into our squad that much better and ready to make the jump to PL level.
-
I disagree. I think we produce and introduce players more out need than merit and for the most part they go on to be distinctly average. Irrespective of how much we get from their sale, and good for us as a club for getting that money, how many of them go on to be excellent players that given how good our academy is, you'd think we would have a lot more? I don't need to compare to Man U to make my case. How about Southampton as an example who have had a string of top young players come through. West Ham for a while produced a number of players that have really excelled in the game. Who of all the players we have produced have gone on to be real stars in the game, whether with us or anyone else. Practically none. They go on to have average or decent careers, and the odd one or two have very good careers.
We need to get to the point where the first team is strong and the kids coming through need to be exception to break through. That they have been on loan, proved their worth and been introduced into our squad that much better and ready to make the jump to PL level.
Really harsh TV in my opinion. We have produced 2 England internationals, 1 who has won a champions league and a UEFA cup in the last 13 months, the other who is out top league scorer. Cahill is now pretty much first choice for England too. Not bad really. Add in Weimann who is an international footballer now and you have 3. Ridgewell, Moore, Cahill and Gardner bought in nearly 16 million to the clubs coffers. There are countless players through our academy still in the game. Just because a huge star has not come through, it is not underperforming. It is in part down to huge luck of capturing that natural talent. Who knows, the Cowley lad that has buggered off to Arsenal may become the next Wilshire, but who will get the credit for him?
Southampton have had Bale, Chaimberlain, Walcott and now Shaw I give you. But is that not more luck and geography than brilliant coaching?
Who have West Ham produced of late? Indeed, who have United since the mid 90's that has been a star?
-
I think for the players that we have just names that have gone on to do good things if we looked hard enough most clubs could say similar things. As for Cahill, I think him being a regular in the England team says more about the dearth of talent in England than about the player. Weimann has to do it for more than a season, and playing for Austria will help his cause to play more internationals than a bigger nation. Of the players that we have sold, it is more about the over inflated nature of the British transfer system that we got that much for any of those players. Cahill aside because what he has gone on to achieve, f we had signed those other players players for 11m (Cahill was about 5m) we'd be rather annoyed at the waste.
I don't know how Southampton have done it, but would a top young kid really be inclined to be on the south coast than anywhere else in the UK? As for West Ham it is a policy that worked well for them and they moved away from. But undeniably Cole, Lampard, Ferdinand have had excellent careers.
I don't want to come out and bash the academy that we have because they have done a super job at that level. But we've bigged up so many of our kids who have been outstanding over the years to the point where more of them should have been real stars with us let alone anyone else.
-
Toronto, I don't agree with your opinion but you've defended your stance well.
One point regarding the inflated transfer fees you mentioned above. We would need to be paying those fees if we were not lucky/good enough to be producing a steady number of players through our youth system.
I'll agree that we're yet to unearth our Rooney/Bale but the benefit of a youth system is not only to produce one star player (which can arguably be fluke), but to regularly produce good players. This means the money saved can be collected together to sign better players. Hopefully now there is less turmoil in the club we can start to see better transfer policy and use of the youth players.
-
I don't want to come out and bash the academy that we have because they have done a super job at that level. But we've bigged up so many of our kids who have been outstanding over the years to the point where more of them should have been real stars with us let alone anyone else.
I think there are two seperate points here.
One is that we exaggerate how many of our kids are going to "make it", and I definitely agree on that. There is no wave of them which will come into the first team in one go, because that just never happens. There is not always some automatic, ready to roll replacement within the academy for any first team player, either.
The other point is that, by the standards of other academies, we do very well, in that we produce a regular flow of PL or similar level professional footballers. It is fair comment to raise how well Southampton and West Ham do, but that's because they have top class academies as well.
re Cahill, you can criticise his ability and suggest that he wouldn't be where he is if there were more English CBs around, but that doesn't change the fact he's a regular starter for both England and Chelsea. In that sense he's every bit as valid a suggestion of a successful product of our academy as Oxlade Chamberlain or Walcott are for Southampton's.
-
I'll agree that we're yet to unearth our Rooney/Bale but the benefit of a youth system is not only to produce one star player (which can arguably be fluke), but to regularly produce good players.
This is absolutely spot on, I think.
-
Let's not forget that Chelsea have the funds to buy anyone or almost anyone. Cahill's been one of their first choice centre backs so that says a lot about him and where he learnt his trade. I don't think he's a good example when trying to disprove the quality of individual talents coming through the ranks.
-
The other key point is that we only started really pushing the academy system fairly recently, I've said before, you're really looking 8-10years into the future when you do that, the first group that will have come all the way through are going to be around Crowley's age, so the current academy structure can't be judged for a few more years yet.
-
I see, with none of our next gen, or indeed the FA youth cup winning side in the squad I read in a paper the other day the U20 side have gone the same way as the England U21 side. Maybe our kids are alright for their age.
-
The bit I find really backwards is that the players who seem to have higher expectations are usually the ones who've come through the academy. Imagine is Bannan put in performances as abject as some we've seen from nzogbia, and yet nzogbia still gets a lot of credit with some fans.
Hate the idea of quoting myself but I thought this one was worthy of adding here as well, I wonder if part of the reason our kids haven't done as well as expected is that the weight of those expectations have been far too much. Gabby was always in the shadow of Luke Moore, and has come through far better. Carry it on Clark and Baker, Herd and Bannan, Fonz and Weimann (to an varying degrees more was expected of the first in all of those cases).
-
I'm genuinely curious which top flight clubs have produced more players than us in the last 10 years who are currently earning their living in the professional game. It can't be many.