Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: PeterWithesShin on April 28, 2013, 01:20:09 AM
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http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10265~3159797,00.html
Paul Lambert says he's eager to build a top team that the fans can identify with.
Lambert sees this engaging and enterprising ethos most vividly at Borussia Dortmund, the club he won the Champions League with as a player.
Dortmund were in decline before Jurgen Klopp took over, with the new boss inspiring the team to show renewed charisma and passion.
One of the ways this was achieved was with a young and vibrant roster as fans delighted in the football played at the Westfalenstadion.
Lambert is eager to head in this direction and - despite the turbulent term so far - he thinks the supporters are appreciating his ambitious approach.
Interestingly when Lambert did his coaching badges in Germany, Klopp - who he says is a good guy deserving of success - was on the same course.
He said: "The policy started basically when we had young lads at Colchester. Then we went to Norwich and started to do it there.
"We got young ones to give it a go and the crowd bought into it quickly.
"The difference with that was that Norwich were in League One. Here it is the Barclays Premier League, the best division. That is tough to do at certain times.
"But with this approach you start to build things, you keep the lads together and they grow together.
"The crowd have been fantastic with it. It's like the Dortmund crowd at the minute. You give it everything you have got and they will respond that way.
"At Dortmund the lads have come through the youth setup. The crowd have identified that. They are right behind it. That's what you try to do here.
"The crowd have identified with the team they have got - a special team, a young team. The crowd are pivotal.
"If you can get the crowd that way and keep them on your side, then that certainly helps you.
"If you can get people to identify the club with the players then hopefully that will carry you.
"The fans have bought into it. The fans have been brilliant here. They have been excellent even though we have taken some beatings. I think a lot of people could have turned away.
"But the crowd have been fantastic, they have stayed with us.
"It's a club with history and tradition. They have won big things here. Any team that has won a European Cup, there's always pressure there. But the crowd have been absolutely fabulous.
"They get behind us. The away fans go in their thousands to watch you. You can sense it.
"It's about getting the fans to identify with the young players. Man Utd did it. Look at them.
"You have to get people who can relate to it. If you can keep the crowd and players together, I don't think you can go too far wrong.
"I have never doubted the strategy. Never. Because I know they give me absolutely everything in their bodies.
"Even the other night at Old Trafford, they kept going to the death, they never capitulated, which was great."
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Fine words and an exciting approach to a difficult job of rebuilding. I can only hope it's not been too big a gamble where staying in the PL this season is concerned. The vast majority of fans have been incredibly patient with him, it must be said.
Jürgen Klopp is a brilliant, passionate manager. If Lambert looks to him for inspiration, that'll do me!
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who could we have got who would have realistically done better than Lambert?
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who could we have got who would have realistically done better than Lambert?
I think a fair few would, in the short term, have done better. Long term, with his strategy, not many IMO. I hope he is given time, and the above is why. He has genuine vision for Villa, not just a team to cover his own behind in the short term.
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Difficult to talk about long term when we're by no means certain to even stay up. I'd have a bit more faith in the long term planning if Lambert and the board had taken the necessary steps to strengthen the defence in January.
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Difficult to talk about long term when we're by no means certain to even stay up. I'd have a bit more faith in the long term planning if Lambert and the board had taken the necessary steps to strengthen the defence in January.
It was baffling especially when you consider he's got a player in that hardly ever plays
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Difficult to talk about long term when we're by no means certain to even stay up. I'd have a bit more faith in the long term planning if Lambert and the board had taken the necessary steps to strengthen the defence in January.
Up or down I like the idea he has. The defence in Jan we don't know the story with but QPR spdnt 12.5 million on a centre half we would have all loved and he has been a total flop. a centre half would have been nice, but in truth we are 2-3 defensive players from a solid defence. not easy in Jan.
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Difficult to talk about long term when we're by no means certain to even stay up. I'd have a bit more faith in the long term planning if Lambert and the board had taken the necessary steps to strengthen the defence in January.
Like Newcastle and QPR did?
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Difficult to talk about long term when we're by no means certain to even stay up. I'd have a bit more faith in the long term planning if Lambert and the board had taken the necessary steps to strengthen the defence in January.
It was baffling especially when you consider he's got a player in that hardly ever plays
Dawkins is on less wage than a lot of the youth team if he is on his MLS salary, so I think he was a total shot to nothing, which has not come off but with no width was worth a try.
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Maybe one day he'll get to do this again.
(http://soccerlens.com/files/2013/03/Paul-Lambert-UCL-with-Dortmund.jpg)
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Maybe one day he'll get to do this again.
(http://soccerlens.com/files/2013/03/Paul-Lambert-UCL-with-Dortmund.jpg)
Put a little red cross in the top left hand corner of an empty frame?
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I'd keep Lambert even if we go down. Partly just because we can't keep changing. But also because it's just obvious that we're progressing as a side (compare and contrast to this time last season when we were falling apart). I just watched the Man U game, and though we didn't score, some of our attacking play was really good.
He just needs to sort the bloody defence out. We need someone better than Vlaar. He gets caught out positionally too much.
I don't want to tempt fate, but at least we're looking better at set pieces now.
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Difficult to talk about long term when we're by no means certain to even stay up. I'd have a bit more faith in the long term planning if Lambert and the board had taken the necessary steps to strengthen the defence in January.
Like Newcastle and QPR did?
What a fabulous argument. Other teams bought shit players so it's a reason for us not to bother. Brilliant. Worked out well that particular ploy.
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Difficult to talk about long term when we're by no means certain to even stay up. I'd have a bit more faith in the long term planning if Lambert and the board had taken the necessary steps to strengthen the defence in January.
Like Newcastle and QPR did?
What a fabulous argument. Other teams bought shit players so it's a reason for us not to bother. Brilliant. Worked out well that particular ploy.
You wanted Samba FFS Risso! You cannot want a guy, then argue using him being woeful, which he has been, means we should have bought better. He was 12m and 120k a week. And has been useless. There is no value in Jan at all, you have to pay mad money. QPR did, and it has not worked, who is to say it would for us.
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The argument will be settled after the Wigan game when we finish above Newcastle and Wigan (and Norwich and Sunderland for that matter).
It was very high risk in January, especially in the bottom of our rut, but we have finally seen something; we pass the ball, we create chances and we do need more defensive quality, but at least we can see a future, whereas last season it was hard to imagine.
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Difficult to talk about long term when we're by no means certain to even stay up. I'd have a bit more faith in the long term planning if Lambert and the board had taken the necessary steps to strengthen the defence in January.
Like Newcastle and QPR did?
What a fabulous argument. Other teams bought shit players so it's a reason for us not to bother. Brilliant. Worked out well that particular ploy.
The point, which I'm sure you're aware, was that Newcastle and QPR bought players that many on here were clamouring for, and neither team look that better off despite a huge outlay.
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Difficult to talk about long term when we're by no means certain to even stay up. I'd have a bit more faith in the long term planning if Lambert and the board had taken the necessary steps to strengthen the defence in January.
Like Newcastle and QPR did?
What a fabulous argument. Other teams bought shit players so it's a reason for us not to bother. Brilliant. Worked out well that particular ploy.
Chucking money at the problem rather than developing those you have has worked out tremendously for those two clubs, hasn't it?
And if the Jawdees do drop, the business they did in January will just compound their problems.
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It takes courage and nerve to stick to a long term strategy of re-building with youth and home grown talent. I think that it really differentiates us from many teams...especially the likes of QPR who have taken the opposite approach.
As fans we have been brilliant by and large this season and I sense that the majority of realistic fans have grasped that although definitely being risky the pride that comes from building a team from within and playing football on the deck is really something worth striving for.
I am praying we survive this year as I think there will be much to celebrate at VP in years to come
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Difficult to talk about long term when we're by no means certain to even stay up. I'd have a bit more faith in the long term planning if Lambert and the board had taken the necessary steps to strengthen the defence in January.
Like Newcastle and QPR did?
What a fabulous argument. Other teams bought shit players so it's a reason for us not to bother. Brilliant. Worked out well that particular ploy.
You wanted Samba FFS Risso! You cannot want a guy, then argue using him being woeful, which he has been, means we should have bought better. He was 12m and 120k a week. And has been useless. There is no value in Jan at all, you have to pay mad money. QPR did, and it has not worked, who is to say it would for us.
Firstly, I didn't want Samba. All I said was we needed that type of defender, ie a big, hard experienced type. We did then, and we do now. Secondly, are we really supposed to believe that there was no defender in world footballer who would have improved our current shambles for under the silly money that Samba cost?
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There is no value in Jan at all, you have to pay mad money.
There is if you look in the right places.
Vidic, Young, Evra, Ba, Hangeland, Arteta, Carew, Ivanovic - all were bought in January and all money very well spent.
Edit - actually, apart from Ba. But it's hardly his fault that the rest of the West Ham team he was playing with were all rubbish.
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Maybe one day he'll get to do this again.
(http://soccerlens.com/files/2013/03/Paul-Lambert-UCL-with-Dortmund.jpg)
Put a little red cross in the top left hand corner of an empty frame?
Annoying, that is. Working fine for me, maybe I'm more computer illiterate than I thought.
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Difficult to talk about long term when we're by no means certain to even stay up. I'd have a bit more faith in the long term planning if Lambert and the board had taken the necessary steps to strengthen the defence in January.
Like Newcastle and QPR did?
What a fabulous argument. Other teams bought shit players so it's a reason for us not to bother. Brilliant. Worked out well that particular ploy.
Chucking money at the problem rather than developing those you have has worked out tremendously for those two clubs, hasn't it?
And if the Jawdees do drop, the business they did in January will just compound their problems.
I don't have a problem with developing our players, but sticking rigidly to a strategy that clearly isn't working is the mark of stupidity and a badly run and managed club. If we go down, it'll set us back years, and our financial state is far worse than Newcastle's.
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Difficult to talk about long term when we're by no means certain to even stay up. I'd have a bit more faith in the long term planning if Lambert and the board had taken the necessary steps to strengthen the defence in January.
Like Newcastle and QPR did?
What a fabulous argument. Other teams bought shit players so it's a reason for us not to bother. Brilliant. Worked out well that particular ploy.
Chucking money at the problem rather than developing those you have has worked out tremendously for those two clubs, hasn't it?
And if the Jawdees do drop, the business they did in January will just compound their problems.
I don't have a problem with developing our players, but sticking rigidly to a strategy that clearly isn't working is the mark of stupidity and a badly run and managed club. If we go down, it'll set us back years, and our financial state is far worse than Newcastle's.
It's a fine line between sticking to a strategy that doesn't work, and sticking at something till it does work.
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Lambert can talk positively as much as he wants.
But if his boss doesn't give a fuck anymore, then it's just empty words.
But, that's a discussion for after the Wigan game, we have other things to worry about until then.
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It's a fine line between sticking to a strategy that doesn't work, and sticking at something till it does work.
It wasn't working then and it isn't working now. As I said, it's hardly surprising though as we're a badly run club from top to bottom.
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It's a fine line between sticking to a strategy that doesn't work, and sticking at something till it does work.
It wasn't working then and it isn't working now. As I said, it's hardly surprising though as we're a badly run club from top to bottom.
The defence has looked a lot better since January, and results have improved, so that sentence is just wrong.
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I would'nt say we're a badly run club from top to bottom. Mistakes have been made and we should'nt be where we are. I don't think we've reached the comical levels shown by the boards at Wolves and Blackburn.
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I would'nt say we're a badly run club from top to bottom. Mistakes have been made and we should'nt be where we are. I don't think we've reached the comical levels shown by the boards at Wolves and Blackburn.
Far from it.
We have been run badly, but we've put that right in the last 10 months.
Just might be a bit too late.
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I would'nt say we're a badly run club from top to bottom. Mistakes have been made and we should'nt be where we are. I don't think we've reached the comical levels shown by the boards at Wolves and Blackburn.
Far from it.
We have been run badly, but we've put that right in the last 10 months.
Just might be a bit too late.
We've put it right? Which is why we've been in and out of the bottom three all season and had just about the worst season in living memory, with relegation still a very real possibility. We've just gone from one bad strategy to another. You can't continue spending stupid money forever, but you also can't shift immediately to an austerity package and expect it to work.
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I would'nt say we're a badly run club from top to bottom. Mistakes have been made and we should'nt be where we are. I don't think we've reached the comical levels shown by the boards at Wolves and Blackburn.
Far from it.
We have been run badly, but we've put that right in the last 10 months.
Just might be a bit too late.
We've put it right? Which is why we've been in and out of the bottom three all season and had just about the worst season in living memory, with relegation still a very real possibility. We've just gone from one bad strategy to another. You can't continue spending stupid money forever, but you also can't shift immediately to an austerity package and expect it to work.
You should tell that to Cameron, Clegg and Osborne.
In any case it's hardly austerity, we've cut costs but the thrust of the article is this is the way Lambert wants to work, following the Dortmund model. Much is made of the lack of signings in January but they've got to fit in with overall philosophy. In any case the fact that our form and points total have improved since then suggests that it wasn't as clear cut an argument as some of you suggest.
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In any case the fact that our form and points total have improved since then suggests that it wasn't as clear cut an argument as some of you suggest.
On the first of Jan we had 19 points from 21 games, we've now got 34 from 34, so it's hardly been a meteoric improvement. And of course it's austerity, we've sold just about every single one of our decent players, and replaced them with kids. Refusing to buy a defender after the December we had, and getting in the likes of Dawkins and Sylla show that it isn't a strategy but a reaction to the fact that there is no money available.
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Difficult to talk about long term when we're by no means certain to even stay up. I'd have a bit more faith in the long term planning if Lambert and the board had taken the necessary steps to strengthen the defence in January.
Spot on. I'm on board with the philosophy but not taking the opportunity to strengthen a naive, weak and inexperienced defence in January was absolute madness. If we pay the price for it, so be it but it was very much avoidable. Especially when our two senior centre halves are injury prone and in Vlaars case still feeling the league out. I just don't understand it. Not even a loan?
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Concentrate on Sunderland Mr Lambert. That's all that matters right now
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I would'nt call Vlaar or KEA 'kids' but yes a little bit of expereince in the back line in January was needed. There might not be enough money to pay the wages we used to, but i still think we'd pay a decent transfer fee if we needed to.
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I think we'll be a really good side in the long term, but we need to make sure we don't get relegated in the short term.
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I'm ambiguous about Lambert. I admire and support his long term strategy, but have doubts whether he is good enough to implement it successfully at the top level. He has significant weak spots, mainly often bizarrely naive or just plain wrong tactics, a seeming inability to produce any semblance of a solid defence especially from set pieces, and a massive over-reliance on slow and insufficiently gifted full backs to provide the only width in the team. All three flaws have cost us dearly at times this season, and unless he changes something I can't see him ever doing a Dortmund. Generally I think managers should go if they get relegated, but I'd be tempted to keep him as he is probably one of the better bets for getting us back up.
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I would love PL and Jurgen to get together and have a chat with each other for tactics and team and players and while they are at it organise a pre season friendly.
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Whether january was all down to Lambert, or partly down to lack of funds too (probably), we can't say.
But it was all too clear that we need to sign first 11 players. Had we signed a decent centre half and a decent center mid, we'd probably be a few points better off. The Samba argument is irrelevant. We don't have the money to make such a desperate signing and it was desperate. Even at his best, Samba's not worth nearly that.
But our central defence has been so bad, that I'm sure we could have spent 2 mill on a defender in the championship or abroad who could have improved us.
Signing Dawkins and Sylla was baffling. Dawkins never plays. Sylla has the odd, unimpressive cameo. To me, that's a waste of money. They may not cost much, but we may as well not have bothered at all. We must have an 18 yr old in our youth side who's better than Sylla. Certainly I'd play Carruthers over Dawkins.
I appreciate Lambo's sentiment and I like they guy. If we go down though, we can't build a top team. His ethos in principal could work, but we've really lacked a couple of reliable older heads to help these lads through. Particularly at the back and in the middle.
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I`ve said before and I`ll say it again - buy Championship quality players and sooner or later you will end up in the Championship. I agree we need a strategy (what happened to the General`s 5 year plan?) and yes we should get behind a manager and give him our full support - however I am not sure this guy is the right manager - as stated above defensivley he is extremely naive and he has been out thought tactically on a fair few occasions.Sounds to me like he is sounding out Lerner in respect of his long term future .. although Lerner has stated that he will support him if we get relegated.
Frankly Mr Lambert I couldn`t give a toss about the Ajax or Dortmund model I care passionately about my club - your "project" has seen me witnessing record 0-8 defeats at Chelsea, 0-3 at home to Wigan and most embarassingly, defeats in the Cup competitions to lower league "giants".
We now appear to be relying on other clubs to fail in order for us to survive. Frankly the fans have given you an easy ride - many will argue that they are seeing "green shoots of recovery" - fair play to them however as much as I crave to watch progressive , attractive football I suggest the time for that type of luxury is when you are winning 3-0 with 10 minutes to go or when you have already secured 40 points for safety.This is a results business - fans will not start flocking to Villa Park because we have young lads playing tippy tappy across the back line - they will come in droves if we start winning games irrespective of the manner in which they come - I am not advocating the "Stoke way" by the way.
I would love for the guy to turn this around but I think he is playing Russian Roulette with his current philosophy - a case of too much too soon - plus the quality of some of the players is not of premiership material - especially the defence.
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In fairness our form of late has been pretty good, so that'd suggest the green shoots of recovery are there.
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I would also say attendances are (slightly?) up on last year? We had no sell outs last year and only one 40,000 +.
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The very same people who were criticising MON for short term thinking and leaving us with unproductive players draining the wage bill are now advocating that Lambert does the very same thing. If players do not fit in with the way he wants us to play AND with the clubs strategic direction in terms of costs then signing them then it leaves us in 12 months time with them acting as a drain on the wage bill and us back to the position we were under Houllier and Mcleish, and all the pain of the last few years has been for nothing.
Talk of short term contracts etc is just pie in the sky, any signings we make are not going to do it on that basis unless they have no other options and if they have no other options then you'd have to ask yourself why.
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I support the long term plan and it's been a lot more entertaining than last year.
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The very same people who were criticising MON for short term thinking and leaving us with unproductive players draining the wage bill are now advocating that Lambert does the very same thing. If players do not fit in with the way he wants us to play AND with the clubs strategic direction in terms of costs then signing them then it leaves us in 12 months time with them acting as a drain on the wage bill and us back to the position we were under Houllier and Mcleish, and all the pain of the last few years has been for nothing.
Talk of short term contracts etc is just pie in the sky, any signings we make are not going to do it on that basis unless they have no other options and if they have no other options then you'd have to ask yourself why.
Spot on Chris.
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This is a results business - fans will not start flocking to Villa Park because we have young lads playing tippy tappy across the back line - they will come in droves if we start winning games irrespective of the manner in which they come
We were (mostly) winning under O'Neill with two good cup runs in his final season thrown in and still people (on here at least)moaned like fuck so I'm not sure that argument holds much water.
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I support the long term plan and it's been a lot more entertaining than last year.
I think some of the problems with our defending comes from the ethos of attacking to win games, but fuck it, I never want to see a Villa side go into games with the fear of god we played with last season.
I suspect the same goes for the majority of Villa fans, which is why the manager and players have had inordinate support this season.
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This is a results business - fans will not start flocking to Villa Park because we have young lads playing tippy tappy across the back line - they will come in droves if we start winning games irrespective of the manner in which they come
We were (mostly) winning under O'Neill with two good cup runs in his final season thrown in and still people (on here at least)moaned like fuck so I'm not sure that argument holds much water.
We're unlikely to ever win much again given the loaded nature of league football, so if I'm going to shell out £30+ to attend a match I want a bit of style and entertainment.
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I support the long term plan and it's been a lot more entertaining than last year.
I think some of the problems with our defending comes from the ethos of attacking to win games, but fuck it, I never want to see a Villa side go into games with the fear of god we played with last season.
I suspect the same goes for the majority of Villa fans, which is why the manager and players have had inordinate support this season.
The problems come from the fact that we haven't got any decent defenders. All the goals we've conceded from corners haven't come as a result of us trying to attack. The central defence especially is a joke. Vlaar, Clark and Baker are all rubbish.
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I support the long term plan and it's been a lot more entertaining than last year.
I think some of the problems with our defending comes from the ethos of attacking to win games, but fuck it, I never want to see a Villa side go into games with the fear of god we played with last season.
I suspect the same goes for the majority of Villa fans, which is why the manager and players have had inordinate support this season.
Well that's it, after last year going into games trying to just keep down the margin of defeat that was impossible to stomach. At least this year we've given it a go, and yes it hasn't come off a lot but if we make it through there's so much more potential for growth. Under Mcleish it would have just continued to spiral down into misery.
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I support the long term plan and it's been a lot more entertaining than last year.
I think some of the problems with our defending comes from the ethos of attacking to win games, but fuck it, I never want to see a Villa side go into games with the fear of god we played with last season.
I suspect the same goes for the majority of Villa fans, which is why the manager and players have had inordinate support this season.
Vlaar, Clark and Baker are all rubbish.
I'd take any of those over the lumbering oaf that is Samba.
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The very same people who were criticising MON for short term thinking and leaving us with unproductive players draining the wage bill are now advocating that Lambert does the very same thing. If players do not fit in with the way he wants us to play AND with the clubs strategic direction in terms of costs then signing them then it leaves us in 12 months time with them acting as a drain on the wage bill and us back to the position we were under Houllier and Mcleish, and all the pain of the last few years has been for nothing.
Talk of short term contracts etc is just pie in the sky, any signings we make are not going to do it on that basis unless they have no other options and if they have no other options then you'd have to ask yourself why.
Spot on Chris.
Whatever the opposite of spot on is, that's actually what it is. People moaned about O'Neill because he was spending Champions League level money without serving up the style of play and results the outlay merited. The answer to that isn't to cut everything to the bone and rely on a load of lower league kids. This idiotic thinking that the only way to run a football club is to lurch from one extreme to the other is what that pair of retards Lerner and Faulkner are guilty of.
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The very same people who were criticising MON for short term thinking and leaving us with unproductive players draining the wage bill are now advocating that Lambert does the very same thing. If players do not fit in with the way he wants us to play AND with the clubs strategic direction in terms of costs then signing them then it leaves us in 12 months time with them acting as a drain on the wage bill and us back to the position we were under Houllier and Mcleish, and all the pain of the last few years has been for nothing.
Talk of short term contracts etc is just pie in the sky, any signings we make are not going to do it on that basis unless they have no other options and if they have no other options then you'd have to ask yourself why.
Spot on Chris.
Whatever the opposite of spot on is, that's actually what it is. People moaned about O'Neill because he was spending Champions League level money without serving up the style of play and results the outlay merited. The answer to that isn't to cut everything to the bone and rely on a load of lower league kids. This idiotic thinking that the only way to run a football club is to lurch from one extreme to the other is what that pair of retards Lerner and Faulkner are guilty of.
Is 'retards' really a necessary word to use when having a football debate?
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You wanted Samba FFS Risso! You cannot want a guy, then argue using him being woeful, which he has been, means we should have bought better. He was 12m and 120k a week. And has been useless. There is no value in Jan at all, you have to pay mad money. QPR did, and it has not worked, who is to say it would for us.
Ahem:
"QPR losing Nelson is a bonus. Hope they don't sign Samba"
"Samba is made for us. Shame we can't afford him. "
"Samba would be a good signing"
"Chris Samba would be awesome, what is he up to now"
I'll leave you to guess who wrote all that this January, but a big clue was that it wasn't me.
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This is a results business - fans will not start flocking to Villa Park because we have young lads playing tippy tappy across the back line - they will come in droves if we start winning games irrespective of the manner in which they come
We were (mostly) winning under O'Neill with two good cup runs in his final season thrown in and still people (on here at least)moaned like fuck so I'm not sure that argument holds much water.
OK the fall out following the MON period has been painful, certainly in terms of the club`s coffers but when I reflect upon "the days out " whilst MON was in charge compared to what we have recently endured under successive managers I know which I prefer.
VCTM jnr still talks about the two Wembley trips, and some of the away games where as a collective the travelling fans had a belief and the pride of being a Villa fan was evident.
Now we just shrug our shoulders at a record defeat, losing to lower league teams and rely on teams around us rather than us being in control over our destiny.Many of us (myself included) coming on here wishing for a Spurs victory - how far have we sunk?
As I stated I would love to see Lambert suceed but the way things are developing it will be from a lower base and potentially a financially damaging one.
In respect of our support - I am sure that sustained success over a prolonged period - 3 or 4 seasons and not just one would tempt local kids to support the Villa rather than Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal etc, In terms of success that would include a Wembley visit or at least striving for the holy grail that is the 4th placed spot !
Finally us Villa fans love a good old moan - even when we are winning - perhaps its the Brummie inside us !!! :)
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I support the long term plan and it's been a lot more entertaining than last year.
I think some of the problems with our defending comes from the ethos of attacking to win games, but fuck it, I never want to see a Villa side go into games with the fear of god we played with last season.
I suspect the same goes for the majority of Villa fans, which is why the manager and players have had inordinate support this season.
Vlaar, Clark and Baker are all rubbish.
I'd take any of those over the lumbering oaf that is Samba.
Likewise.
The thing I remembered most about Samba at Blackburn is how intimidated he was by John Carew.
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It was very high risk in January, especially in the bottom of our rut, but we have finally seen something; we pass the ball, we create chances and we do need more defensive quality, but at least we can see a future, whereas last season it was hard to imagine.
Agree. Our points tally hasn't improved compared to this time last year but I think we are seeing improvements. Of course it's desperately tight but I think we will survive, just. We can't keep changing managers and we can't or won't spend big so what he is doing seems right to me. A least he has looked at and seemingly discarded players who I think aren't up to this level, Ireland and Bannan.
If we do go down and he gets sacked, I would be disappointed.
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.............Finally us Villa fans love a good old moan - even when we are winning - perhaps its the Brummie inside us !!! :)
An old Les Ross joke (ex localRadio presenter).....
We all know what the definition of a true cockney is. Born within the sound of Bow bells.
Well the definition of a true Brummie is someone born within the sound of somebody else moaning.
True or not!
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Frankly Mr Lambert I couldn`t give a toss about the Ajax or Dortmund model I care passionately about my club - your "project" has seen me witnessing record 0-8 defeats at Chelsea, 0-3 at home to Wigan and most embarassingly, defeats in the Cup competitions to lower league "giants".
Damn , thats just woke me up quick ;(
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I still can not believe he did not get a defender in January . Dawkins , whats the point , people say because he didnt cost a lot , sorry I do not get that , we have better players in the reserves .
I want PL to succeed and generally think if we stay up , we will be alright in the future , but not signing a defender , my mind boggles.
Letting in stupid goals from awful defending is costing us.
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I still can not believe he did not get a defender in January . Dawkins , whats the point , people say because he didnt cost a lot , sorry I do not get that , we have better players in the reserves .
I want PL to succeed and generally think if we stay up , we will be alright in the future , but not signing a defender , my mind boggles.
Letting in stupid goals from awful defending is costing us.
Spot on. I have no problem with Lambert's approach to football, or our attacking intent which is good. But the defensive side of our game is atrocious, and if we go down that'll be the main reason. Doing nothing about it in January was just negligent.
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Difficult to talk about long term when we're by no means certain to even stay up. I'd have a bit more faith in the long term planning if Lambert and the board had taken the necessary steps to strengthen the defence in January.
Up or down I like the idea he has. The defence in Jan we don't know the story with but QPR spdnt 12.5 million on a centre half we would have all loved and he has been a total flop. a centre half would have been nice, but in truth we are 2-3 defensive players from a solid defence. not easy in Jan.
Who are these "we" you are talking about? Chris Samba has always been a donkey and just the thought of him signing for us had me deeply concerned. It also amazed me how the media portrayed the signing of an average at best player as an amazing and ambitious transfer just because of the ridiculous sums involved. I'm not surprised in the slightest that Samba has proved himself not only to be over valued but also as shite as I thought he was in the first place.
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I have, at times, spoke out in a negative way about Lambert, but I've been won over. He was the man I wanted for the job originally, and I was delighted when he got it, but obviously it hasn't been a great season. Whether we go down or stay up, I hope we keep him. I think our future with him is indeed, bright. I also think more chopping and changing of styles and philosophy will cost us long term.
Not strengthening the defence was indeed a mistake, but he has us playing good, passing, attractive football. As he improves the players and gets his style deeply bedded in, we'll see massive improvements.
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I have, at times, spoke out in a negative way about Lambert, but I've been won over. He was the man I wanted for the job originally, and I was delighted when he got it, but obviously it hasn't been a great season. Whether we go down or stay up, I hope we keep him. I think our future with him is indeed, bright. I also think more chopping and changing of styles and philosophy will cost us long term.
I agree, but only if PL learns some lessons from this season. We have looked good going forward at times this season and if he can bring someone in who can link things up then we could be a real attacking threat next season. Defensively, however, we've been below par this season and he really needs to work on that side of things.
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You wanted Samba FFS Risso! You cannot want a guy, then argue using him being woeful, which he has been, means we should have bought better. He was 12m and 120k a week. And has been useless. There is no value in Jan at all, you have to pay mad money. QPR did, and it has not worked, who is to say it would for us.
Ahem:
"QPR losing Nelson is a bonus. Hope they don't sign Samba"
"Samba is made for us. Shame we can't afford him. "
"Samba would be a good signing"
"Chris Samba would be awesome, what is he up to now"
I'll leave you to guess who wrote all that this January, but a big clue was that it wasn't me.
I wanted him, and am not trying to pretend I did not, but I am glad we did not get him. I was pointing out that you, and you can keep dancing around it with the "someone like him" bs, also wanted him, and won't acknowledge that signing an experienced centre half might actually not have been the saving grace it looked as though it could be in january. I also wanted Sissokho, but not on the contract he is on either, although the fee was excellent. He looked great against us but Newcastle have struggled badly since too. I also thought Samba was way over priced and you have left those posts out of your seach clearly, and said I would not want him on that kind of money.
I also think Chris is spot on, and please don't use the term retards to describe people, it is not a nice term to use.
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I have, at times, spoke out in a negative way about Lambert, but I've been won over. He was the man I wanted for the job originally, and I was delighted when he got it, but obviously it hasn't been a great season. Whether we go down or stay up, I hope we keep him. I think our future with him is indeed, bright. I also think more chopping and changing of styles and philosophy will cost us long term.
I agree, but only if PL learns some lessons from this season. We have looked good going forward at times this season and if he can bring someone in who can link things up then we could be a real attacking threat next season. Defensively, however, we've been below par this season and he really needs to work on that side of things.
I wrote elswhere on H&V a few days ago that we need a defensive coach and it was pointed out to me by someone that we have one in Ian Culverhouse, if that is his role within the club then i can think of one change we should make immediately.
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Samba has been left out of the starting 11 today. Money well spent there 'Arry.
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Some quick points:
1. I support what PL is doing and I'd keep him if we go down.
2. He should have been more pragmatic in his strategy. With the injuries to Dunne and Petrov, we needed some EPL experience in there even just on loan, to steady the ship.
3. It's just not true that we've been cut to the bone. Lerner is still subsiding the club. We still have wage levels in the top 8. We've bought a lot of players - even after MON left - that were expensive and who now aren't playing. Find me another club in the bottom half of the league - with the notable exception of QPR! - that has:
- a £4.5 m keeper on the bench on £40k a week
- a £4m right back out on loan
- a £5m midfielder who's been given a free
- a £8m attacking midfielder playing with the kids
- a £23m centre forward on the bench
- a £10m winger who's generally not been first choice
All of these players were post-MON purchases.The truth is - spend that money better, and I think PL would have - and we'd be absolutely fine. It's not the lack of funding, it's the poor managerial decisions, that are my main gripe with Lerner.
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We have two opposites. MON who relied on overpaid average footballers who couldn't perform when the real talent left never giving younger players a chance and Lambert who wanted to change the playing style overnight, playing and buying players from lower divisions hoping they can make the grade, i hope for all our sakes he can get us through this, we will know after Monday.
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Some quick points:
1. I support what PL is doing and I'd keep him if we go down.
2. He should have been more pragmatic in his strategy. With the injuries to Dunne and Petrov, we needed some EPL experience in there even just on loan, to steady the ship.
3. It's just not true that we've been cut to the bone. Lerner is still subsiding the club. We still have wage levels in the top 8. We've bought a lot of players - even after MON left - that were expensive and who now aren't playing. Find me another club in the bottom half of the league - with the notable exception of QPR! - that has:
- a £4.5 m keeper on the bench on £40k a week
- a £4m right back out on loan
- a £5m midfielder who's been given a free
- a £8m attacking midfielder playing with the kids
- a £23m centre forward on the bench
- a £10m winger who's generally not been first choice
All of these players were post-MON purchases.The truth is - spend that money better, and I think PL would have - and we'd be absolutely fine. It's not the lack of funding, it's the poor managerial decisions, that are my main gripe with Lerner.
I think that is fair enough.
My biggest issue is the about face in style of play and ethos from Houllier to McLeish. I think had Eck never walked in on his short term mission we might be a lot better off.
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I'm getting a little tired of hearing "I can see what Lambert's trying to do” from fans and pundits alike. When a toddler gets his hands on a paint brush, I can see what he's trying to do. But invariably his attempts at painting mommy and daddy end up looking like a scarecrow massacre. Frequently, what we've tried to do this season hasn't worked. And in this league, it has to work.
Having said that, if we do go down, I'd stick with Lambert. Unlike QPR, we won't be losing half of our first team, probably because most of our players will have found their level (at this stage) in the Championship. It's probably the best league for Lambert to put his plan into practice, and maybe we'll be able to build from there?
What he has started has to be given a chance to mature. I only wish he'd taken a less cavalier approach at times, because too often what we've seen on the pitch has been a bit too close to a scarecrow massacre for comfort.
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I'm getting a little tired of hearing "I can see what Lambert's trying to do” from fans and pundits alike. When a toddler gets his hands on a paint brush, I can see what he's trying to do. But invariably his attempts at painting mommy and daddy end up looking like a scarecrow massacre. Frequently, what we've tried to do this season hasn't worked. And in this league, it has to work.
Having said that, if we do go down, I'd stick with Lambert. Unlike QPR, we won't be losing half of our first team, probably because most of our players will have found their level (at this stage) in the Championship. It's probably the best league for Lambert to put his plan into practice, and maybe we'll be able to build from there?
What he has started has to be given a chance to mature. I only wish he'd taken a less cavalier approach at times, because too often what we've seen on the pitch has been a bit too close to a scarecrow massacre for comfort.
And not just in the League - his tactics for both legs against Bradford were extremely poor - the second leg at Villa Park was embarassing.
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Agreed, VCTM. Lumping on every attacking player on our books was reminiscent of a playground kickabout.
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I wanted him sacked in January as we were simply woeful. For me, not strengthening that defence was reason enough to sack him.
However, I would now keep him even if we go down. We are playing some nice football at times, and he has a clear vision of what he wants to do. I think the majority of who we would want to stay will so the team will have continuity.
If we stay up I can see us really progressing next season
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Completely agree with his comments. Building a team takes time and having an itchy trigger finger as a chairman gets you nowhere.
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The idea of creating a decent team from youth etc. is fine and one I'm sure most would buy into but not if every time a gem is unearthed, it's promptly sold to the first bidder that comes along.
In order to buy into a vision, you need to know what that vision is and unfortunately, for the last few years, ours has appeared to be (because so little comment comes from within the club) to scout out cheap talent and sell to the highest bidder to balance the books. Do we want to just exist to do the scouting for others or achieve something in our own right? :-\
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Difficult to talk about long term when we're by no means certain to even stay up. I'd have a bit more faith in the long term planning if Lambert and the board had taken the necessary steps to strengthen the defence in January.
Like Newcastle and QPR did?
What a fabulous argument. Other teams bought shit players so it's a reason for us not to bother. Brilliant. Worked out well that particular ploy.
You wanted Samba FFS Risso! You cannot want a guy, then argue using him being woeful, which he has been, means we should have bought better. He was 12m and 120k a week. And has been useless. There is no value in Jan at all, you have to pay mad money. QPR did, and it has not worked, who is to say it would for us.
Firstly, I didn't want Samba. All I said was we needed that type of defender, ie a big, hard experienced type. We did then, and we do now. Secondly, are we really supposed to believe that there was no defender in world footballer who would have improved our current shambles for under the silly money that Samba cost?
Obviously not. Otherwise we would've got him.
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Obviously not. Otherwise we would've got him.
Yes....obviously....
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Obviously not. Otherwise we would've got him.
Yes....obviously....
Is he suggesting that there was no defender anywhere in football that could have strengthened our dismal defence? That's a mighty claim! :-)
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Obviously not. Otherwise we would've got him.
Yes....obviously....
Is he suggesting that there was no defender anywhere in football that could have strengthened our dismal defence? That's a mighty claim! :-)
He's more likely to have been suggesting that there was nobody that we could afford who could have strengthened our dismal defence.
I'd probably disagree with that as well (the Sylla money didn't need to spent on Sylla), but it doesn't look as though we had a great deal of money to play with.
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Obviously not. Otherwise we would've got him.
Yes....obviously....
Is he suggesting that there was no defender anywhere in football that could have strengthened our dismal defence? That's a mighty claim! :-)
He's more likely to have been suggesting that there was nobody that we could afford who could have strengthened our dismal defence.
I'd probably disagree with that as well (the Sylla money didn't need to spent on Sylla), but it doesn't look as though we had a great deal of money to play with.
True I suppose. Lerner has taken one hell of a chance no investing in January. We'll regret it for many a year if it back-fires.
Let's hope this lack of cash flow is short term. We can't go into next season with a defence as bad as the one we've got now.
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Agreed, VCTM. Lumping on every attacking player on our books was reminiscent of a playground kickabout.
True, but I watched Dortmund do exactly the same in a bid to get themselves in the Champions Cup semis.
And it worked.
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Agreed, VCTM. Lumping on every attacking player on our books was reminiscent of a playground kickabout.
True, but I watched Dortmund do exactly the same in a bid to get themselves in the Champions Cup semis.
And it worked.
But when Marco Reus is doing the lumping, aiming for Lewandowski it's more likely to work than Bannan lumping it towards Ciaran Clark.
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Agreed, VCTM. Lumping on every attacking player on our books was reminiscent of a playground kickabout.
True, but I watched Dortmund do exactly the same in a bid to get themselves in the Champions Cup semis.
And it worked.
But when Marco Reus is doing the lumping, aiming for Lewandowski it's more likely to work than Bannan lumping it towards Ciaran Clark.
To be fair, other than that and the fact that we were playing Bradford City and not Real Madrid Malaga it was indeed as Lee says, 'exactly the same'.
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They were playing Malaga.
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I love Lambert. I love what he is trying to do. He has made me love Villa again.
He's doing absolutely the opposite of everything that I fell out of love with football for.
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Agreed, VCTM. Lumping on every attacking player on our books was reminiscent of a playground kickabout.
True, but I watched Dortmund do exactly the same in a bid to get themselves in the Champions Cup semis.
And it worked.
But when Marco Reus is doing the lumping, aiming for Lewandowski it's more likely to work than Bannan lumping it towards Ciaran Clark.
To be fair, other than that and the fact that we were playing Bradford City and not Real Madrid Malaga it was indeed as Lee says, 'exactly the same'.
If you're going to take the piss, at least get the teams right.
The point I was making, which of course sailed over your head, was that the tactics employed are often used by other top coaches when in a desperate situation in a tie.
The only problem with us is that it didn't work.
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Agreed, VCTM. Lumping on every attacking player on our books was reminiscent of a playground kickabout.
True, but I watched Dortmund do exactly the same in a bid to get themselves in the Champions Cup semis.
And it worked.
But when Marco Reus is doing the lumping, aiming for Lewandowski it's more likely to work than Bannan lumping it towards Ciaran Clark.
Of course, but you would hope that playing against Bradford rather than Malaga would level this out.
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I love Lambert. I love what he is trying to do. He has made me love Villa again.
He's doing absolutely the opposite of everything that I fell out of love with football for.
This - I love that he bought Sylla - who looks half decent to me and could be good next year - when 'Arry was spunking someone else's money on unsustainable wages for players that couldn't give a fuck about QPR
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I love Lambert. I love what he is trying to do. He has made me love Villa again.
He's doing absolutely the opposite of everything that I fell out of love with football for.
Amen brother, amen.
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I have, at times, spoke out in a negative way about Lambert, but I've been won over. He was the man I wanted for the job originally, and I was delighted when he got it, but obviously it hasn't been a great season. Whether we go down or stay up, I hope we keep him. I think our future with him is indeed, bright. I also think more chopping and changing of styles and philosophy will cost us long term.
I agree, but only if PL learns some lessons from this season. We have looked good going forward at times this season and if he can bring someone in who can link things up then we could be a real attacking threat next season. Defensively, however, we've been below par this season and he really needs to work on that side of things.
I wrote elswhere on H&V a few days ago that we need a defensive coach and it was pointed out to me by someone that we have one in Ian Culverhouse, if that is his role within the club then i can think of one change we should make immediately.
The fact that Norwich struggled defensively last season would suggest that PL and his coaching staff have a problem with that side of the game. The back four have been poor pretty much all season, but they have been left badly exposed at times (particularly in the wide areas). Sorting that side of things must be the priority in the summer.
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I would'nt say we're a badly run club from top to bottom. Mistakes have been made and we should'nt be where we are. I don't think we've reached the comical levels shown by the boards at Wolves and Blackburn.
Bold statement is that.
I give you TSM. Yes he was here for 11 months. It wasn't a dream. I'll raise you MON spunking loads of money on rubbish/average and being allowed to run up a wage bill up to 88% of turnover. I give you paying him lots of money to keep quiet after he did The runner. I give you hiring an ill arrogant has been who showed disrespect for our club that even O'Leary couldn't come close to matching. I give you player ill discipline on too many occasions. I give you players trying to beat up a club legend. I give you a completely out of his depth credit card marketing manager who couldn't talk more shit if it were scripted for him as the man who runs the club.
I don't think we have anything to crow about.
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I would'nt say we're a badly run club from top to bottom. Mistakes have been made and we should'nt be where we are. I don't think we've reached the comical levels shown by the boards at Wolves and Blackburn.
Bold statement is that.
I give you TSM. Yes he was here for 11 months. It wasn't a dream. I'll raise you MON spunking loads of money on rubbish/average and being allowed to run up a wage bill up to 88% of turnover. I give you paying him lots of money to keep quiet after he did The runner. I give you hiring an ill arrogant has been who showed disrespect for our club that even O'Leary couldn't come close to matching. I give you player ill discipline on too many occasions. I give you players trying to beat up a club legend. I give you a completely out of his depth credit card marketing manager who couldn't talk more shit if it were scripted for him as the man who runs the club.
I don't think we have anything to crow about.
Spot on with this for me. Nail on head type thingy.
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Agreed, VCTM. Lumping on every attacking player on our books was reminiscent of a playground kickabout.
True, but I watched Dortmund do exactly the same in a bid to get themselves in the Champions Cup semis.
And it worked.
But when Marco Reus is doing the lumping, aiming for Lewandowski it's more likely to work than Bannan lumping it towards Ciaran Clark.
To be fair, other than that and the fact that we were playing Bradford City and not Real Madrid Malaga it was indeed as Lee says, 'exactly the same'.
If you're going to take the piss, at least get the teams right.
The point I was making, which of course sailed over your head, was that the tactics employed are often used by other top coaches when in a desperate situation in a tie.
The only problem with us is that it didn't work.
I have a lot of time for Lambert, and am certainly having no truck with the three or four "sack him and get Curbishley in!111!!!!" posters on here, but the problem with Bradford wasn't just that it didn't work, it was that he resorted to it way too early.
The first half, it was men against boys, it was embarassingly one sided in our favour. We kept the ball from them, they chased around a bit, but looked like a team from several divisions below us.
We then go to shit from a corner 10 mins into the second half and almost immediately resort to panic mode.
There were 35 minutes left. What we should have done was what we did in the first half - kept our heads, and kept plugging away.
Big mistake from Lambert on that one.
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I may concede that paulie.
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I would'nt say we're a badly run club from top to bottom. Mistakes have been made and we should'nt be where we are. I don't think we've reached the comical levels shown by the boards at Wolves and Blackburn.
Bold statement is that.
I give you TSM. Yes he was here for 11 months. It wasn't a dream. I'll raise you MON spunking loads of money on rubbish/average and being allowed to run up a wage bill up to 88% of turnover. I give you paying him lots of money to keep quiet after he did The runner. I give you hiring an ill arrogant has been who showed disrespect for our club that even O'Leary couldn't come close to matching. I give you player ill discipline on too many occasions. I give you players trying to beat up a club legend. I give you a completely out of his depth credit card marketing manager who couldn't talk more shit if it were scripted for him as the man who runs the club.
I don't think we have anything to crow about.
Did you say anything at the time?
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I would'nt say we're a badly run club from top to bottom. Mistakes have been made and we should'nt be where we are. I don't think we've reached the comical levels shown by the boards at Wolves and Blackburn.
Bold statement is that.
I give you TSM. Yes he was here for 11 months. It wasn't a dream. I'll raise you MON spunking loads of money on rubbish/average and being allowed to run up a wage bill up to 88% of turnover. I give you paying him lots of money to keep quiet after he did The runner. I give you hiring an ill arrogant has been who showed disrespect for our club that even O'Leary couldn't come close to matching. I give you player ill discipline on too many occasions. I give you players trying to beat up a club legend. I give you a completely out of his depth credit card marketing manager who couldn't talk more shit if it were scripted for him as the man who runs the club.
I don't think we have anything to crow about.
Totally agree.
Over the last few years, on several occasions, we have looked distinctly like we don't know our arses from our elbows. The speed of the cutting back on spending has been absolutely nuts - as much as I buy into the general concept, look where we've spent the last three years, and we're still at risk of going down. We're also still seeing expensive, high waged, non contributing players walking away for nothing. I doubt any other club has come near us for the number of players we've seen sit out contracts (contracts they should not have got in the first place) and then walk away for nothing.
That is rank bad management of the playing assets of the club.
As someone said to me, Man City get their Chief Exec from Barcelona, Chelsea took one from Man United.
We got ours from a credit card call centre in Chester.
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I would'nt say we're a badly run club from top to bottom. Mistakes have been made and we should'nt be where we are. I don't think we've reached the comical levels shown by the boards at Wolves and Blackburn.
Bold statement is that.
I give you TSM. Yes he was here for 11 months. It wasn't a dream. I'll raise you MON spunking loads of money on rubbish/average and being allowed to run up a wage bill up to 88% of turnover. I give you paying him lots of money to keep quiet after he did The runner. I give you hiring an ill arrogant has been who showed disrespect for our club that even O'Leary couldn't come close to matching. I give you player ill discipline on too many occasions. I give you players trying to beat up a club legend. I give you a completely out of his depth credit card marketing manager who couldn't talk more shit if it were scripted for him as the man who runs the club.
I don't think we have anything to crow about.
Did you say anything at the time?
In fairness, lots of people did. Certainly about things like the wage bill (where General Krulak - before he legged it off to Scumbag Poly with our marketing slogan - told us not to worry about it, they knew what they were doing), and obviously the McLeish appointment.
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I would'nt say we're a badly run club from top to bottom. Mistakes have been made and we should'nt be where we are. I don't think we've reached the comical levels shown by the boards at Wolves and Blackburn.
Bold statement is that.
I give you TSM. Yes he was here for 11 months. It wasn't a dream. I'll raise you MON spunking loads of money on rubbish/average and being allowed to run up a wage bill up to 88% of turnover. I give you paying him lots of money to keep quiet after he did The runner. I give you hiring an ill arrogant has been who showed disrespect for our club that even O'Leary couldn't come close to matching. I give you player ill discipline on too many occasions. I give you players trying to beat up a club legend. I give you a completely out of his depth credit card marketing manager who couldn't talk more shit if it were scripted for him as the man who runs the club.
I don't think we have anything to crow about.
Did you say anything at the time?
In fairness, lots of people did. Certainly about things like the wage bill (where General Krulak - before he legged it off to Scumbag Poly with our marketing slogan - told us not to worry about it, they knew what they were doing), and obviously the McLeish appointment.
But they didn't criticise everything they now moan about.
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Not every thing no, but the things mentioned above, people moaned about every one of them at the time.
There's no doubt, they sometimes get stick for things they don't deserve to get stick for. I am sure there are those who will slate them whatever they do. But the last few years, we've seen a catalogue of mistakes from them, and the playing assets of the club have been dreadfully managed. That sort of thing is entirely their fault.
Ultimately, we've spent hundreds of millions of pounds, to end up in awful financial trouble, with a gigantic wage bill, and a squad of championship kids, teetering on the verge of relegation. Over the last few years, someone has dropped some serious clangers to get us into that situation.
I don't have any problem with Randy if he wants to detach himself from the club and just pop over for the odd match. If that's the way he sees his involvement, then that's his decision. But, if that is the way he is going to do it, then he absolutely must have people running things over here who are totally on top of their game.
That's not the way it looks these days, and it hasn't for years.
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We know there have been major issues, but I echo the comments of a few people who actually admire the way Lambert is trying to turn the club around. If and I know it is a big if, we can survive, I can see us progressing and that has not been the case in recent times
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Not every thing no, but the things mentioned above, people moaned about every one of them at the time.
There's no doubt, they sometimes get stick for things they don't deserve to get stick for. I am sure there are those who will slate them whatever they do. But the last few years, we've seen a catalogue of mistakes from them, and the playing assets of the club have been dreadfully managed. That sort of thing is entirely their fault.
Ultimately, we've spent hundreds of millions of pounds, to end up in awful financial trouble, with a gigantic wage bill, and a squad of championship kids, teetering on the verge of relegation. Over the last few years, someone has dropped some serious clangers to get us into that situation.
I don't have any problem with Randy if he wants to detach himself from the club and just pop over for the odd match. If that's the way he sees his involvement, then that's his decision. But, if that is the way he is going to do it, then he absolutely must have people running things over here who are totally on top of their game.
That's not the way it looks these days, and it hasn't for years.
I agree with most of what you've said there, particularly with regards to the lack of experienced football people. However, to put everything together in a box marked 'incompetence' is wrong.
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I like Lamberts Philosophy and the style of football he wants to play (we dont yet, but we are getting there).
I just wish I could enjoy it. Fighting a relegation battle at the same time is hard as hell.
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I would'nt say we're a badly run club from top to bottom. Mistakes have been made and we should'nt be where we are. I don't think we've reached the comical levels shown by the boards at Wolves and Blackburn.
Bold statement is that.
I give you TSM. Yes he was here for 11 months. It wasn't a dream. I'll raise you MON spunking loads of money on rubbish/average and being allowed to run up a wage bill up to 88% of turnover. I give you paying him lots of money to keep quiet after he did The runner. I give you hiring an ill arrogant has been who showed disrespect for our club that even O'Leary couldn't come close to matching. I give you player ill discipline on too many occasions. I give you players trying to beat up a club legend. I give you a completely out of his depth credit card marketing manager who couldn't talk more shit if it were scripted for him as the man who runs the club.
I don't think we have anything to crow about.
Did you say anything at the time?
In fairness, lots of people did. Certainly about things like the wage bill (where General Krulak - before he legged it off to Scumbag Poly with our marketing slogan - told us not to worry about it, they knew what they were doing), and obviously the McLeish appointment.
But they didn't criticise everything they now moan about.
In fairness, as things happen, general fans like us can't be expected to know the ins and outs of what goes on behind the scenes so it is a bit unfair to say we can't weigh up the evidence of where we have gone over the past three years and conclude that yes, indeed, we were run very badly simply because we weren't critical while some of it was happening.
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I would'nt say we're a badly run club from top to bottom. Mistakes have been made and we should'nt be where we are. I don't think we've reached the comical levels shown by the boards at Wolves and Blackburn.
Bold statement is that.
I give you TSM. Yes he was here for 11 months. It wasn't a dream. I'll raise you MON spunking loads of money on rubbish/average and being allowed to run up a wage bill up to 88% of turnover. I give you paying him lots of money to keep quiet after he did The runner. I give you hiring an ill arrogant has been who showed disrespect for our club that even O'Leary couldn't come close to matching. I give you player ill discipline on too many occasions. I give you players trying to beat up a club legend. I give you a completely out of his depth credit card marketing manager who couldn't talk more shit if it were scripted for him as the man who runs the club.
I don't think we have anything to crow about.
Did you say anything at the time?
In fairness, lots of people did. Certainly about things like the wage bill (where General Krulak - before he legged it off to Scumbag Poly with our marketing slogan - told us not to worry about it, they knew what they were doing), and obviously the McLeish appointment.
But they didn't criticise everything they now moan about.
In fairness, as things happen, general fans like us can't be expected to know the ins and outs of what goes on behind the scenes so it is a bit unfair to say we can't weigh up the evidence of where we have gone over the past three years and conclude that yes, indeed, we were run very badly simply because we weren't critical while some of it was happening.
Enough of what the original claim states was public knowledge.
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I would'nt say we're a badly run club from top to bottom. Mistakes have been made and we should'nt be where we are. I don't think we've reached the comical levels shown by the boards at Wolves and Blackburn.
Bold statement is that.
I give you TSM. Yes he was here for 11 months. It wasn't a dream. I'll raise you MON spunking loads of money on rubbish/average and being allowed to run up a wage bill up to 88% of turnover. I give you paying him lots of money to keep quiet after he did The runner. I give you hiring an ill arrogant has been who showed disrespect for our club that even O'Leary couldn't come close to matching. I give you player ill discipline on too many occasions. I give you players trying to beat up a club legend. I give you a completely out of his depth credit card marketing manager who couldn't talk more shit if it were scripted for him as the man who runs the club.
I don't think we have anything to crow about.
Did you say anything at the time?
The wage bill aside, because I didn't know about the extent of it, then yes - however I have only been writing on here post O'Neill (he had my full support until March 2009).
You'll find no comments in support of that arrogant has been Houllier or TSM, both utterly perplexing and the only 2 managers I couldn't make a case for - though I wrote a supporting comment when trolls were laying into you for meeting the latter after he joined.
If you can find a comment (from me) supporting Faulkner (as it was he who hired Houllier demonstated that he is a child in an adult's world) then my account must have been hacked.
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What exactly did Houllier do that was so wrong?
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One thing Houllier did do was put his foot in his mouth in the most arrogantly dismissive way possible several times.
During the McLeish year, I frequently found it embarassing watching the way we played on the pitch. In the Houllier year, the embarassment was frequently off his pitch, with his various clangers.
One thing I'll say for Lambert is he always, always shows respect for, and understanding of, the club when he talks about it. Houllier sounded like he thought we should be grateful to him for taking the job.
I had a lot of time for him in some respects, but he really was an arrogant bastard with an incredibly high opinion of himself.
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What exactly did Houllier do that was so wrong?
Turning a Top 6 side (from previous season) into relegation scrappers in the space of 15-20 games, alienating numerous experienced players unnecessarily, not being fit for the job physically, sending a Villa team out to lose in the FA Cup (the Holy Grail for many of us) v Cit-eh after That Lot had won a trophy (after beating us on th way) Robert Pires taxi service whilst telling others to move close to West Mids, Anfield love in with his previous employees (who sacked him) to the detriment of his current ones, hiring failed coach/manager McAllister as his stooge. Excuses after losing to Man You away was similar to TSm last year. Oh and he had MON's level of spending in terms of transfer and wages as we needed panic buys after he alienated senior players. And in the end he resorted to O'Neills formation and to an extent tactics in any case.
Other than that he was just fine.
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As has been explained many times before, we finished ninth. That's a drop of three places despite all the upheaval and injuries of the season. What he did at Anfield was similar to Graham Taylor when he came back here with Watford, and nobody complained about that. Pires was a short-term signing, so it didn't really matter what arrangements he had. Alienating players - are these the ones who assaulted the Villa legend? If so, surely you would agree that they needed more than alienating. I always find the angst about the FA Cup amusing when you bear in mind that we take it so seriously our gates in the competition are always much lower than for league games and our annual cup eliminations under O'Neill were always followed by a lengthy debate on here about how cups don't matter. And as for the historical revisionism I started with, nothing exemplifies that more than the supposed 'panic buys' of January 2011, which included a player we'd been after for years at a price which was regarded as a bargain then, a loan signing who did well for us and two others who were discarded prematurely by a subsequent manager.
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As has been explained many times before, we finished ninth. That's a drop of three places despite all the upheaval and injuries of the season. What he did at Anfield was similar to Graham Taylor when he came back here with Watford, and nobody complained about that. Pires was a short-term signing, so it didn't really matter what arrangements he had. Alienating players - are these the ones who assaulted the Villa legend? If so, surely you would agree that they needed more than alienating. I always find the angst about the FA Cup amusing when you bear in mind that we take it so seriously our gates in the competition are always much lower than for league games and our annual cup eliminations under O'Neill were always followed by a lengthy debate on here about how cups don't matter. And as for the historical revisionism I started with, nothing exemplifies that more than the supposed 'panic buys' of January 2011, which included a player we'd been after for years at a price which was regarded as a bargain then, a loan signing who did well for us and two others who were discarded prematurely by a subsequent manager.
Finished 9th with same/less points than Blues year earlier with TSM. I was bothered by FA Cups exits. The Citeh exit was farcical.
They were still panic buys by definition because of the circumstances.I was all for Bent but please don't accuse all of us of revisionism. I wanted Houllier out after the Sunderland game and definitely after the Wolves game - inadvertenly he was soon gone anyway.
It's up to the Watford fans to complain when GT came back not our fans - Liverpool fans loved it. Pires it did matter after he made it clear others (quite rightly) should move nearer but jeeps let's have some consitency, not treat another has been like royalty
Those who may have assaulted the Villa legend were already alienated and were still brought back to the fold by Houllier and McAllister when the replacements didn't look good enough.
I'll agree to disagree with you Dave on this. I've been reading your excellent periodicals since early 1990's, watched you on Central TV having decent debates with Ellis sychophants and respect your opinion.
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As has been explained many times before, we finished ninth. That's a drop of three places despite all the upheaval and injuries of the season. What he did at Anfield was similar to Graham Taylor when he came back here with Watford, and nobody complained about that. Pires was a short-term signing, so it didn't really matter what arrangements he had. Alienating players - are these the ones who assaulted the Villa legend? If so, surely you would agree that they needed more than alienating. I always find the angst about the FA Cup amusing when you bear in mind that we take it so seriously our gates in the competition are always much lower than for league games and our annual cup eliminations under O'Neill were always followed by a lengthy debate on here about how cups don't matter. And as for the historical revisionism I started with, nothing exemplifies that more than the supposed 'panic buys' of January 2011, which included a player we'd been after for years at a price which was regarded as a bargain then, a loan signing who did well for us and two others who were discarded prematurely by a subsequent manager.
Finished 9th with same/less points than Blues year earlier with TSM. I was bothered by FA Cups exits. The Citeh exit was farcical.
They were still panic buys by definition because of the circumstances.I was all for Bent but please don't accuse all of us of revisionism. I wanted Houllier out after the Sunderland game and definitely after the Wolves game - inadvertenly he was soon gone anyway.
It's up to the Watford fans to complain when GT came back not our fans - Liverpool fans loved it. Pires it did matter after he made it clear others (quite rightly) should move nearer but jeeps let's have some consitency, not treat another has been like royalty
Those who may have assaulted the Villa legend were already alienated and were still brought back to the fold by Houllier and McAllister when the replacements didn't look good enough.
I'll agree to disagree with you Dave on this. I've been reading your excellent periodicals since early 1990's, watched you on Central TV having decent debates with Ellis sychophants and respect your opinion.
Don't forget the League Cup exit at St. Andrew's as well!!
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As has been explained many times before, we finished ninth. That's a drop of three places despite all the upheaval and injuries of the season. What he did at Anfield was similar to Graham Taylor when he came back here with Watford, and nobody complained about that. Pires was a short-term signing, so it didn't really matter what arrangements he had. Alienating players - are these the ones who assaulted the Villa legend? If so, surely you would agree that they needed more than alienating. I always find the angst about the FA Cup amusing when you bear in mind that we take it so seriously our gates in the competition are always much lower than for league games and our annual cup eliminations under O'Neill were always followed by a lengthy debate on here about how cups don't matter. And as for the historical revisionism I started with, nothing exemplifies that more than the supposed 'panic buys' of January 2011, which included a player we'd been after for years at a price which was regarded as a bargain then, a loan signing who did well for us and two others who were discarded prematurely by a subsequent manager.
Finished 9th with same/less points than Blues year earlier with TSM. I was bothered by FA Cups exits. The Citeh exit was farcical.
They were still panic buys by definition because of the circumstances.I was all for Bent but please don't accuse all of us of revisionism. I wanted Houllier out after the Sunderland game and definitely after the Wolves game - inadvertenly he was soon gone anyway.
It's up to the Watford fans to complain when GT came back not our fans - Liverpool fans loved it. Pires it did matter after he made it clear others (quite rightly) should move nearer but jeeps let's have some consitency, not treat another has been like royalty
Those who may have assaulted the Villa legend were already alienated and were still brought back to the fold by Houllier and McAllister when the replacements didn't look good enough.
I'll agree to disagree with you Dave on this. I've been reading your excellent periodicals since early 1990's, watched you on Central TV having decent debates with Ellis sychophants and respect your opinion.
And the main reason we ended up finishing 9th were the games we won under McAllister while Houllier was ill and had nothing to do with the team. But that 9th place also disguises the fact that for most of the season we were firmly ensconced in the bottom few places, and after losing to Wolves in as dreadful a game as I've ever seen, relegation looked a real possibility.
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Does it really matter how many points we got? I'm sure teams have finished second with more than we did in 1981 yet we still won the league. The City decision was wrong - I said so at the time and still don't understand it now, but my real anger is reserved for the situation which has made cup competitions less important than league placing. I fail to see how signing players who improved the team could be seen as panic.
Houllier came into a situation he had to get a grip of quickly. In some areas he tried to act too quickly, and I certainly believe he was reminding some players that they were at a football club not a holiday camp. A good point was made that he appeared to behave like a consultant rather than an employee and there might be some truth in that; one man's disrespect is another man's dispassionate view. We'll never know what he could have achieved or even what he was trying to do but he, like Sir Graham II, arrived at a time when we could no longer continue in the way that we had under the previous manager. Talking of which, it's ironic that of the many charges levelled at Doug, nobody ever accuses him of spending money we couldn't afford in the later Gregory days, when it could be argued that the financial situation was worse than it is now.
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How does where small heath finished a year previously have anything to do with us finishing 9th?
Surely by that argument you could claim every January transfer is a panic buy? Let's remember that if was the first transfer window Houllier had.
As for Pires, i'm sure many businesses have different rules for long term and short term staff.
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Does it really matter how many points we got? I'm sure teams have finished second with more than we did in 1981 yet we still won the league. The City decision was wrong - I said so at the time and still don't understand it now, but my real anger is reserved for the situation which has made cup competitions less important than league placing. I fail to see how signing players who improved the team could be seen as panic.
Houllier came into a situation he had to get a grip of quickly. In some areas he tried to act too quickly, and I certainly believe he was reminding some players that they were at a football club not a holiday camp. A good point was made that he appeared to behave like a consultant rather than an employee and there might be some truth in that; one man's disrespect is another man's dispassionate view. We'll never know what he could have achieved or even what he was trying to do but he, like Sir Graham II, arrived at a time when we could no longer continue in the way that we had under the previous manager. Talking of which, it's ironic that of the many charges levelled at Doug, nobody ever accuses him of spending money we couldn't afford in the later Gregory days, when it could be argued that the financial situation was worse than it is now.
In what way could it be argued that the financial position was worse?
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Does it really matter how many points we got? I'm sure teams have finished second with more than we did in 1981 yet we still won the league. The City decision was wrong - I said so at the time and still don't understand it now, but my real anger is reserved for the situation which has made cup competitions less important than league placing. I fail to see how signing players who improved the team could be seen as panic.
Houllier came into a situation he had to get a grip of quickly. In some areas he tried to act too quickly, and I certainly believe he was reminding some players that they were at a football club not a holiday camp. A good point was made that he appeared to behave like a consultant rather than an employee and there might be some truth in that; one man's disrespect is another man's dispassionate view. We'll never know what he could have achieved or even what he was trying to do but he, like Sir Graham II, arrived at a time when we could no longer continue in the way that we had under the previous manager. Talking of which, it's ironic that of the many charges levelled at Doug, nobody ever accuses him of spending money we couldn't afford in the later Gregory days, when it could be argued that the financial situation was worse than it is now.
In what way could it be argued that the financial position was worse?
Because the money wasn't owed to our owner.
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How does where small heath finished a year previously have anything to do with us finishing 9th?
Surely by that argument you could claim every January transfer is a panic buy? Let's remember that if was the first transfer window Houllier had.
As for Pires, i'm sure many businesses have different rules for long term and short term staff.
Yep and it certainly causes friction. Especially if seen as place person.
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I appreciate the "the table doesn't lie" approach, but I thought our final finish that Houllier season was immensely flattering. We spent most of the season in the relegation fight. I appreciate it is the final placing that matters, but until that run of form under McAllister, we were pretty dreadful.
That Sunderland match at home was one of the most depressing matches I've ever seen at Villa Park, right up there with anything from last season or this.
We looked like we didn't even know what we were trying to do, and whatever it was, we failed in doing it.
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How does where small heath finished a year previously have anything to do with us finishing 9th?
Surely by that argument you could claim every January transfer is a panic buy? Let's remember that if was the first transfer window Houllier had.
As for Pires, i'm sure many businesses have different rules for long term and short term staff.
Yep and it certainly causes friction. Especially if seen as place person.
Que?
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Does it really matter how many points we got? I'm sure teams have finished second with more than we did in 1981 yet we still won the league. The City decision was wrong - I said so at the time and still don't understand it now, but my real anger is reserved for the situation which has made cup competitions less important than league placing. I fail to see how signing players who improved the team could be seen as panic.
Houllier came into a situation he had to get a grip of quickly. In some areas he tried to act too quickly, and I certainly believe he was reminding some players that they were at a football club not a holiday camp. A good point was made that he appeared to behave like a consultant rather than an employee and there might be some truth in that; one man's disrespect is another man's dispassionate view. We'll never know what he could have achieved or even what he was trying to do but he, like Sir Graham II, arrived at a time when we could no longer continue in the way that we had under the previous manager. Talking of which, it's ironic that of the many charges levelled at Doug, nobody ever accuses him of spending money we couldn't afford in the later Gregory days, when it could be argued that the financial situation was worse than it is now.
Well he wasn't hired as a consultant was he? . Has he been it would have been (slighly) less of an issue and he would still have been shit for what £5m?. He was hired as a manager - organiser, coach, spokesperson, recruiter motivator. Multiple responsibilities. He was very bad at most. Houllier got sacked by LFC for finishing nearer relegation than champions despite spending more than Wenger or Ferguson overall. In fact IIRC DOLs team ran his close and O'Leary managed 6th from a similar position in January (at Villa) with tighter purse strings in 2004.
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How does where small heath finished a year previously have anything to do with us finishing 9th?
Surely by that argument you could claim every January transfer is a panic buy? Let's remember that if was the first transfer window Houllier had.
As for Pires, i'm sure many businesses have different rules for long term and short term staff.
Yep and it certainly causes friction. Especially if seen as place person.
Que?
Pardon. Pires was a Houllier protege 15-20 years earlier.
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And how many trophies did he win?
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Houllier got sacked by LFC for finishing nearer relegation than champions despite spending more than Wenger or Ferguson overall. In fact IIRC DOLs team ran his close and O'Leary managed 6th from a similar position in January (at Villa) with tighter purse strings in 2004.
Liverpool qualified for the Champions league in his last season. How else would they have won it the following year?
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How does where small heath finished a year previously have anything to do with us finishing 9th?
Surely by that argument you could claim every January transfer is a panic buy? Let's remember that if was the first transfer window Houllier had.
As for Pires, i'm sure many businesses have different rules for long term and short term staff.
Yep and it certainly causes friction. Especially if seen as place person.
Que?
Pardon. Pires was a Houllier protege 15-20 years earlier.
Who was out of contract that we could have signed that would have been viewed as better? Pires was probably the best option in the world at the time we signed him. It was obvious he was only here for 6 months so I don't blame anyone for not making him move. I doubt many others do either.
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I doubt if moving closer to Birmingham would have made him any better for us anyway. He was finished when he got here. Doesn't matter where he lived.
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I doubt if moving closer to Birmingham would have made him any better for us anyway. He was finished when he got here. Doesn't matter where he lived.
We had a squad ravaged with injuries. We were relying on unproven youngsters and were struggling (sound familiar?). We brought in the best and most experienced player available in the world at that time to help out.
Lambert is damned for not doing that, and Houllier is damned for doing it.
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I doubt if moving closer to Birmingham would have made him any better for us anyway. He was finished when he got here. Doesn't matter where he lived.
We had a squad ravaged with injuries. We were relying on unproven youngsters and were struggling (sound familiar?). We brought in the best and most experienced player available in the world at that time to help out.
Lambert is damned for not doing that, and Houllier is damned for doing it.
Just because the Pires signing wasn't successful shouldn't mean we should give up trying to strengthen a struggling squad in January.
You're not actually suggesting that are you?
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He had a tremendous 70 minutes in the win against Blackburn though. Looked a player in that game.
It is also conveniently forgotten that Houllier suffered the worst run of injuries I could remember at the time, only troubled, more briefly, by the run Lambert had at one point this season.
The comments of Di Canio on Sunderland seem to point to how the dressing room was here when MON left too, the only trouble was Houllier wanted to cut it out like a surgeon and did not have the time or leeway to do so. All in all he did ok, and Walker and Bent were terrific signings at the time. Injuries IMO have hampered Bent as much as anything else in the last 18 months, and his confidence and movement is just not the same now. It will be very interesting to see where he ends up.
I just hope Lambert actually gets time to finish what he has started.
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I doubt if moving closer to Birmingham would have made him any better for us anyway. He was finished when he got here. Doesn't matter where he lived.
We had a squad ravaged with injuries. We were relying on unproven youngsters and were struggling (sound familiar?). We brought in the best and most experienced player available in the world at that time to help out.
Lambert is damned for not doing that, and Houllier is damned for doing it.
Just because the Pires signing wasn't successful shouldn't mean we should give up trying to strengthen a struggling squad in January.
You're not actually suggesting that are you?
Pretty obviously I don't as i've never said that.
Maybe i'm suggesting that no matter what is done by a manager, unless it works perfectly some people will moan. Some moan that Lambert brought in no experience when we needed it to help the youngsters, some moan that Houllier DID bring in an experienced player to help the youngsters. Does that make it clearer?
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I doubt if moving closer to Birmingham would have made him any better for us anyway. He was finished when he got here. Doesn't matter where he lived.
We had a squad ravaged with injuries. We were relying on unproven youngsters and were struggling (sound familiar?). We brought in the best and most experienced player available in the world at that time to help out.
Lambert is damned for not doing that, and Houllier is damned for doing it.
Just because the Pires signing wasn't successful shouldn't mean we should give up trying to strengthen a struggling squad in January.
You're not actually suggesting that are you?
Pretty obviously I don't as i've never said that.
Maybe i'm suggesting that no matter what is done by a manager, unless it works perfectly some people will moan. Some moan that Lambert brought in no experience when we needed it to help the youngsters, some moan that Houllier DID bring in an experienced player to help the youngsters. Got it yet?
Fans will criticise managers. That'll never change.
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They have been discussing Ferguson over here saying in his first five years there were times when supporter groups were calling for his head, MON would have eventually sent the club broke at least now we will have the opportunity to see if Lamberts ideas work without worrying too much about being insolvent..
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As has been explained many times before, we finished ninth.
If you looking Houlliers record then its only fair to take the position we were in when he had to step back and not where we finished in the end. Think McAllister deserves credit for the back to back wins v Arsenal and Liverpool, he got more points as well.
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What exactly did Houllier do that was so wrong?
His press conference on day 1 - "Its no Liverpool.. Villa belong 12th" - A club thats just finished 6th 3 years running and above Liverpool the season before. It was all downhill from there, how can anyone defend him?
At least Eck never said a bad word about the club no matter how poorly we treated him.
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As has been explained many times before, we finished ninth.
If you looking Houlliers record then its only fair to take the position we were in when he had to step back and not where we finished in the end. Think McAllister deserves credit for the back to back wins v Arsenal and Liverpool, he got more points as well.
That was a sneaky edit ;)
Just to confirm, we weren't 17th or only 2 points above the drop zone when he was taken ill. We were actually 10th.
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I doubt if moving closer to Birmingham would have made him any better for us anyway. He was finished when he got here. Doesn't matter where he lived.
We had a squad ravaged with injuries. We were relying on unproven youngsters and were struggling (sound familiar?). We brought in the best and most experienced player available in the world at that time to help out.
Lambert is damned for not doing that, and Houllier is damned for doing it.
He was 38!
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What exactly did Houllier do that was so wrong?
His press conference on day 1 - "Its no Liverpool.. Villa belong 12th" - A club thats just finished 6th 3 years running and above Liverpool the season before. It was all downhill from there, how can anyone defend him?
At least Eck never said a bad word about the club no matter how poorly we treated him.
He didn't say that.
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What exactly did Houllier do that was so wrong?
His press conference on day 1 - "Its no Liverpool.. Villa belong 12th" - A club thats just finished 6th 3 years running and above Liverpool the season before. It was all downhill from there, how can anyone defend him?
At least Eck never said a bad word about the club no matter how poorly we treated him.
He didn't say that.
e
He said usually between 6th and 12th if i recall correctly
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We signed Pires because we had a horrendous injury situation, and the transfer window was closed, meaning we could only sign unattached players.
I don't really understand people getting their knickers in a twist about that. If we'd signed someone for actual money at that age and given them a contract beyond the end of the season, then maybe, but it was a pretty sensible move to be able to get another body in when we were pretty desperate.
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What exactly did Houllier do that was so wrong?
His press conference on day 1 - "Its no Liverpool.. Villa belong 12th" - A club thats just finished 6th 3 years running and above Liverpool the season before. It was all downhill from there, how can anyone defend him?
At least Eck never said a bad word about the club no matter how poorly we treated him.
He didn't say that.
e
He said usually between 6th and 12th if i recall correctly
He definitely said the bit about "of course, it's not a job on the level of Liverpool".
Think it is you want, but don't fecking say it. That's the sort of thing he never got.
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What exactly did Houllier do that was so wrong?
His press conference on day 1 - "Its no Liverpool.. Villa belong 12th" - A club thats just finished 6th 3 years running and above Liverpool the season before. It was all downhill from there, how can anyone defend him?
At least Eck never said a bad word about the club no matter how poorly we treated him.
He didn't say that.
e
He said usually between 6th and 12th if i recall correctly
He definitely said the bit about "of course, it's not a job on the level of Liverpool".
Think it is you want, but don't fecking say it. That's the sort of thing he never got.
Yes, and he undermined himself by doing it. You'd think a man of his experience would play the political game a little better.
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Houiller did tend to put his foot in it on occasions. I did'nt think he was right for us but it would have been interesting to see would have happened had we got another season out of him.
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GH is the classic phenomenon of becoming a better Manager by virtue of not being around and not being Eck.
Imo, he was a dreadful appointment on so many levels and guess what, one of the main reasons meant he couldn't see the season out - he only came on board in the September.
His love in at 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' and antics at Citeh were quite frankly unforgivable for any Villa Manager let alone one whose performance up to that time had been at best patchy.
If he was ever going to be Villa Manager it should have been after BL when we appointed JG instead.
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Houllier said Villa's natural place was about 7th to 12th, at a time when we had been trying to make the step up from 6th to 4th. He arrived with a negative relationship with such players as Carew and Warnock (possibly Big Brad too?) and proved confrontational from day one. After MON's antics Villa needed stability for a season before taking a step to the next level. Instead we ended up in a relegation scrap until our form picked up in April. If you look at our leage position and points in Houllier's season it pretty much matches TSM or Lambert until about the end of March before picking up in the final seven games or so.
He was a bad appointment, just look at his record for blaming players. If Fergie has proved anything it's that you defend your players in public. Creating fall guys doesn't work.
Houllier did not understand Aston Villa and was never a good fit.
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I believe it was 8-12th he said. But yes, it was a stupid thing to say after 3, 6th place finishes. That said, given we'd just sold our player of the year, he was right. He also identified pretty quickly that Stephen Ireland wasn't particularly interested. Obviously you don't want to set a difficult bar to achieve but he should have been so specific. We all knew we were going to regress, we didn't need to here it from our new manager.
To be honest, in retrospect, Houllier wasn't too bad. He had some good ideas. His problem was, he was past it in terms of management. If he'd been bought on to oversee a younger manager, it could have worked out better.
The liverpool love in didn't help or treating some cup games with enough respect. He did alienate half of the senior squad, but in fairness, I'm with GH on that one. A lot of them were fucking lazy. Our boy Gabby didn't get on with him either, but again, I'm with Houllier on this one. Gabby should have eased up on the muscle gain for the benefit of his biggest asset, his pace.
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Houllier said Villa's natural place was about 7th to 12th, at a time when we had been trying to make the step up from 6th to 4th. He arrived with a negative relationship with such players as Carew and Warnock (possibly Big Brad too?) and proved confrontational from day one. After MON's antics Villa needed stability for a season before taking a step to the next level. Instead we ended up in a relegation scrap until our form picked up in April. If you look at our leage position and points in Houllier's season it pretty much matches TSM or Lambert until about the end of March before picking up in the final seven games or so.He was a bad appointment, just look at his record for blaming players. If Fergie has proved anything it's that you defend your players in public. Creating fall guys doesn't work.
Houllier did not understand Aston Villa and was never a good fit.
Our form from the Bent signing, so pretty much half the season, was top 6 level, which saw us climb from the relegation mix to 9th.
I didn't want Houllier and think he did a bad job on balance, but I think he had us going in the right direction and it would be interesting to see where he would have taken us had he stayed. But the biggest issue was his health, which turned out to be why he left.
I guess I'd class it as a strange appointment more than a bad one.
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Houllier said Villa's natural place was about 7th to 12th, at a time when we had been trying to make the step up from 6th to 4th. He arrived with a negative relationship with such players as Carew and Warnock (possibly Big Brad too?) and proved confrontational from day one. After MON's antics Villa needed stability for a season before taking a step to the next level. Instead we ended up in a relegation scrap until our form picked up in April. If you look at our leage position and points in Houllier's season it pretty much matches TSM or Lambert until about the end of March before picking up in the final seven games or so.He was a bad appointment, just look at his record for blaming players. If Fergie has proved anything it's that you defend your players in public. Creating fall guys doesn't work.
Houllier did not understand Aston Villa and was never a good fit.
Our form from the Bent signing, so pretty much half the season, was top 6 level, which saw us climb from the relegation mix to 9th.
I didn't want Houllier and think he did a bad job on balance, but I think he had us going in the right direction and it would be interesting to see where he would have taken us had he stayed. But the biggest issue was his health, which turned out to be why he left.
I guess I'd class it as a strange appointment more than a bad one.
I probably was a bit harsh, you are right.
I've gone back and checked. We were on 34 points with seven games to go in the Houllier season and our form was like top four form in those remaining games.
I still think he gets off a bit lightly on that score, 34 points with seven to go is relegation fight.
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Houllier failed us in lots of ways, however, having gone through a season of pain, but eventually improved markedly towards the end, we made the utterly bewildering decision to employ the anti-football relic McLeish.
Say what you like about the Houllier appointment, and there are plenty of reasons to look back and say it was a poor appointment, and a poor season, but the real damage to this club wasn't appointing him, it was throwing away the progress we'd made and appointing McLeish - totally inexplicable on a footballing level, and a perfect example of why those running the club don't know their arses from their elbows.
They managed to appoint a man who made no sense in terms of footballing continuity, and at the same time, placed a gigantic divisive wedge between club and fans.
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Houllier failed us in lots of ways, however, having gone through a season of pain, but eventually improved markedly towards the end, we made the utterly bewildering decision to employ the anti-football relic McLeish.
Say what you like about the Houllier appointment, and there are plenty of reasons to look back and say it was a poor appointment, and a poor season, but the real damage to this club wasn't appointing him, it was throwing away the progress we'd made and appointing McLeish - totally inexplicable on a footballing level, and a perfect example of why those running the club don't know their arses from their elbows.
They managed to appoint a man who made no sense in terms of footballing continuity, and at the same time, placed a gigantic divisive wedge between club and fans.
The thing that got me about Mcleish more than anything was the finances. He was on a hiding to nothing anyway, but a manager that unpopular needs to be given a fighting chance. We made something like a £20m transfer profit that season and continued to slash the wages. If nothing else, the prospect of a few decent signings gets the fans excited about the new season, which wasn't going to be the case with the anticipation of his defensive minded style. It was so tight, we resorted to Jenas on loan in midfield.
It was almost like he was there to oversee the cost cutting as he'd be massively unpopular anyway!
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Houllier failed us in lots of ways, however, having gone through a season of pain, but eventually improved markedly towards the end, we made the utterly bewildering decision to employ the anti-football relic McLeish.
Say what you like about the Houllier appointment, and there are plenty of reasons to look back and say it was a poor appointment, and a poor season, but the real damage to this club wasn't appointing him, it was throwing away the progress we'd made and appointing McLeish - totally inexplicable on a footballing level, and a perfect example of why those running the club don't know their arses from their elbows.
They managed to appoint a man who made no sense in terms of footballing continuity, and at the same time, placed a gigantic divisive wedge between club and fans.
I think that's something we can all agree on. That decision also, in my view, calls into question earlier choices. Did they really employ Houllier as part of a dynamic strategy to drag us into the vanguard of European football or was it like the appointment a bit like TSM 'whatever fits our immediate need'?
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"Aston Villa is not a club on the same level as Liverpool, let's be objective and honest.
It's a club that according to me has belonged between seventh and 12th place in the Premier League"
As Paulie says, think it by all means. But don't say it in your first press conference. Particularly when we've just finished the previous season ahead of wonderful, wonderful Liverpool.
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We signed Pires because we had a horrendous injury situation, and the transfer window was closed, meaning we could only sign unattached players.
I don't really understand people getting their knickers in a twist about that. If we'd signed someone for actual money at that age and given them a contract beyond the end of the season, then maybe, but it was a pretty sensible move to be able to get another body in when we were pretty desperate.
On a personal level it was worth it for me, I saw him make his debut at Ewood think we lost (2-0), I was sat in the home stand as I was visiting my mates in Blackburn. Obviously they gave me a load of stick about it.
A few months later he ran the show twice when we beat them 3-1 in the fa cup, and 4-1 in the league.
think the fa cup midfield was a fearsome combo of Bannan, Pires and Reo Coker. haha
and also him bleating about Mcallister disrespecting him for not giving him a run out at the Emirates was funny.
It wasn't a great signing by any means, but it still raises a wry smile when I visit Blackburn.
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"Aston Villa is not a club on the same level as Liverpool, let's be objective and honest.
It's a club that according to me has belonged between seventh and 12th place in the Premier League"
As Paulie says, think it by all means. But don't say it in your first press conference. Particularly when we've just finished the previous season ahead of wonderful, wonderful Liverpool.
And when all the shite we went through with Barry was still fresh in the memory.
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Employing someone short term to slash wages is typically American, seen it happen over here a few times, they come in with no affinity to the business or its workers, slash and burn then leave with a pockrefull of money. Oleary,Houllier both lived in their past glory and better days and both were disrespectful to their employer and the supporters thats why we have to see it through with Lambert, without another money doesn't mean a thing to me buyer he's the best we can do.
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Because the money wasn't owed to our owner.
You're comparing a £2m overdraft in 2002 to the financial omnishambles we have now? In the 5 years to 2002 we made a profit, compared to the £165m loss in the same time frame under Lerner.
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I've said this on here in other places but it seems to get ignored so to quote someone we all know well "we'll go again".
When you look at things retrospectively the decision to allow MON to go crazy with wages and the appointments of GH and TSM are all poor decisions but when you look at the circumstances that the decision was made in I think you can see the sense in them all.
MoN - promised the board champions league football, so we budgeted for wages on the basis that he'd achieve it. I was naive and too trustworthy, but the footballing world was telling them they had a manager who walked on water and we'd got 6th and looked like we could go on, I firmly believe he was given 1 last season to make the CL or he had to cut wages and make us more sustainable, when he couldn't convince them that he deserved another year he walked away.
Houllier - Very experienced manager who had a good pedigree for setting sides up o make the most of their youth players and had a international reputation which would've opened us up to a much broader scouting pool than we were used to. He made a lot of ill though out remarks but the biggest problems was that he had 17 registered (i.e. had a squad number) players out injured at the same time. From mid-october to the end of November the number varied between that 17 and 12 at best. During that period we barely got a point. For the rest of that season our form was enough to still be around the top 6. The injuries were largely due to players who had been doing 1-2hours training a day being asked to do 4-5 hours, in an attempt to get them fit enough to last for a season and not be dead on their feet come March. The problem was trying to change too much to soon, which led to...
TSM - the board had seen that taking on a manager with a very different game plan to MoN when the squad was custom built for monball was causing us problems so they found someone who would play a game suited to the squad we have. He's a poor manager and they clearly got it wrong, but the idea behind the appointment wasn't as crazy as a lot of people suggest. We had a squad setup to defend and counter so they got in a manager who's entire tactic was to defend (and maybe counter if it wasn't risky).
As for the lambert transfer policy, a lot of people on here are buying into the premier league's ethos that if something isn't from the premier league it's valueless. I've seen a lot of "if you buy championship players you end up with a championship squad" comments on here, when did buying from the lower leagues become such a terrible strategy? I actually think buying from the lower leagues/unfashionable european leagues and bringing players through has served Villa far better in the sky era than buying established players. We need both, that's clear, but we have enough established premier league players in the squad, the problem is they are either unfit, crap, under-performing or insane (or a combination of those).
I find Lambert incredibly frustrating and think his tactical decisions have been bizarre at times but I think him and the board have done a good job on the transfer side. An experienced central defender in the window would've been nice but I can understand why he didn't sign one (he wants one of Clark or Baker to step up and make the place their own and I think he was worried that signing another central defender would've hurt their confidence further after the chelsea and tottenham results), I just hope the risk pays off.
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the mistakes made in the past are exactly that, the past,
its the future that counts, and as the OP says we are undergoing a massive high risk experiment,
if Lambert says we are following some sort of Dortmund project then that's fine by me, but lets face it we are a million miles away at the moment, but you have to start somewhere, and I believe the foundations are being laid down
when you embark on this sort of re building one which diverts from the norm of bringing in experienced more highly paid players and introduce younger players from the lower leagues and from the academy, it will always require a certain amount of belief and faith in the manager and his football philosophy
so you either buy into it or you remain sceptical,
I didn't really want Lambert, I thought he was MON light, and wanted a manager that would introduce a better style of play based on possession and passing,
I went down to West Ham to see what Lambert was all about,
and in the first 30 minutes he had won me over,
the first half hour I saw a young Villa side pass the ball around in a way I hadn't seen for donkeys years, I thought that would do for me I was a fully paid up member of the Lambert happy clappy club and have remained so ever since, even though we lost the game, and have lost plenty since the philosophy remains the same, and it gets my vote
so I admit i'm buying into it, and believe in project
but I can understand those who don't, they see the results they see a young team struggling, they see a manager that at times has made some confusing subs and tactics, everyone has there own opinion
what I cant accept, is those that just look at the points tally and say its no better than under TSM, if you cant see the difference if you cant see what Lambert is trying to build, and you really think Mcliesh football was as good then you are watching the wrong game, you really have no business inside a football ground.
even for those who think we are at last on the right track, we really don't know whether we will be proved right in the end, we don't know how its all going to end, if it all ends in tears, I will be the first to hold my hands up and say I got Lambert wrong,
but for now he has given me something to believe in, something I haven't seen at Villa for a long long time, football played the right way
and yes I would rather go down trying to play that way than stay in the prem with the tripe that Pullis and Allardyce produce every week, but as always that's just my oppinion
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Hope we pull it off tonight but I’m very worried. To be honest, it feels a bit “emperor’s new clothes” to me, this project we’re talking about. I haven’t seen a project developing this season, I’ve seen us struggle with formations, brittle when we concede, using players who have been completely out of their depth in some games, unable to play for 90 minutes, totally and utterly dependent on a single player, who we spent far too much time trying to lump the ball to and without whom we would certainly already have been relegated already. If that’s a project then we need to start looking again at the project manager.
There, said it. Please let me be wrong again....
Now let’s have a fucking scrap against Sunderland tonight and see who wants to stop up the most.
Come on me Villa babbies!!!
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Hope we pull it off tonight but I’m very worried. To be honest, it feels a bit “emperor’s new clothes” to me, this project we’re talking about. I haven’t seen a project developing this season, I’ve seen us struggle with formations, brittle when we concede, using players who have been completely out of their depth in some games, unable to play for 90 minutes, totally and utterly dependent on a single player, who we spent far too much time trying to lump the ball to and without whom we would certainly already have been relegated already. If that’s a project then we need to start looking again at the project manager.
There, said it. Please let me be wrong again....
Now let’s have a fucking scrap against Sunderland tonight and see who wants to stop up the most.
Come on me Villa babbies!!!
Pretty much my feelings, I don't care what the "project" is, putting the club in danger of relegation should never be part of it.
I remain of the mind that should we go down, Lambert should pay the price with his job.
But, I shall be making all too rare visits to Villa Park tonight and for the Chelsea game and will shout myself puce in support of the manager and the team.
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I am also behind Lambert and what he is trying to do. I think it is brave and ambitious, even if a little reckless and naive.
The problem I have with the "following the Dortmund model" plan is that I don't believe there are the same calibre of young players in the U.K. or Ireland to make this successful. German football overhauled how they train their youngsters over 10 years ago and clubs like Dortmund are now reaping the results, by being able to rely on these talented, well trained youngsters. Traditionally English clubs have signed their youngsters from the UK and Ireland and at the moment, the technical training is lacking.
For Lambert to succeed long term, he needs to be getting talented players from a very young age into the "Villa system", but if the players aren't technically accomplished enough, he may be on a hiding to nothing.
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At times this season we've been good and played some very good football.
OK, a lot of the time it's been poo, but I seem to have enjoyed this season more than last (and perhaps before that as well).
When we play well and pass and move the ball we look a very good team. I'd keep Lambert whatever and leave in charge for a number of years. He's shown in his career that he's a good manager so let's give him a chance.
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Hope we pull it off tonight but I’m very worried. To be honest, it feels a bit “emperor’s new clothes” to me, this project we’re talking about. I haven’t seen a project developing this season, I’ve seen us struggle with formations, brittle when we concede, using players who have been completely out of their depth in some games, unable to play for 90 minutes, totally and utterly dependent on a single player, who we spent far too much time trying to lump the ball to and without whom we would certainly already have been relegated already. If that’s a project then we need to start looking again at the project manager.
There, said it. Please let me be wrong again....
Now let’s have a fucking scrap against Sunderland tonight and see who wants to stop up the most.
Come on me Villa babbies!!!
Totally agree.
My residing negative memory of this season was not the Chelsea or Bradford debacles but the Wigan game at home. We were completely and utterly carved apart and could quite easily of ended up with an 8-0 thrashing off one of our relegation rivals.
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We signed Pires because we had a horrendous injury situation, and the transfer window was closed, meaning we could only sign unattached players.
I don't really understand people getting their knickers in a twist about that. If we'd signed someone for actual money at that age and given them a contract beyond the end of the season, then maybe, but it was a pretty sensible move to be able to get another body in when we were pretty desperate.
Did he play for free? I certainly don't recall that - therefore he DID cost money.. I believe he was hanging around the mighty Crawley Town prior to having an additional 6 month pension top up at Villa.
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Hope we pull it off tonight but I’m very worried. To be honest, it feels a bit “emperor’s new clothes” to me, this project we’re talking about. I haven’t seen a project developing this season, I’ve seen us struggle with formations, brittle when we concede, using players who have been completely out of their depth in some games, unable to play for 90 minutes, totally and utterly dependent on a single player, who we spent far too much time trying to lump the ball to and without whom we would certainly already have been relegated already. If that’s a project then we need to start looking again at the project manager.
There, said it. Please let me be wrong again....
Now let’s have a fucking scrap against Sunderland tonight and see who wants to stop up the most.
Come on me Villa babbies!!!
Totally agree.
My residing negative memory of this season was not the Chelsea or Bradford debacles but the Wigan game at home. We were completely and utterly carved apart and could quite easily of ended up with an 8-0 thrashing off one of our relegation rivals.
All of the above ...
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if Lambert says we are following some sort of Dortmund project then that's fine by me, but lets face it we are a million miles away at the moment, but you have to start somewhere, and I believe the foundations are being laid down
You're right. Rebuilding like Dortmund appears a long, long way right now but that's because we've just seen Dortmund rip Real Madrid apart and are on the verge on the CL final. Rewind back a few years, when they were 24 hrs from going under, had just missed relegation from the Bundesliga, and you'll see where they started from. They've gone through some very difficult times. Everyone is hailing Jurgen Klopp as a coaching genius - actually, that's worthy praise - but when Dortmund hired him, all he'd done was take Mainz to promotion and been overlooked by one or two other Bundesliga clubs after an interview process. Once apparently, because he turned up for interview in a tracksuit, not a suit (brilliant). I've read when he started at Dortmund, his salary was lower than he was earning at Mainz.
Dortmund are committed to their structure, too - so they'll still lose their best players to higher bidders (Gotze) but will continue to rebuild within their means. They've realised the hard way that spending recklessly wasn't getting them anyway, and this is a better way. Villa are trying to do the same, this process is painful to watch, but we may (hopefully) come out stronger the other side eventually.
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1 more point, I'm fed up of seeing people type that we're 'relying on other teams to stay up' - no we're not, if we win the next 4 there is absolutely no chance we can go down, the same, technically, is true of Wigan as they have to play us, so as things stand there is no side in the race that is relying on other teams results at this point.
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1 more point, I'm fed up of seeing people type that we're 'relying on other teams to stay up' - no we're not, if we win the next 4 there is absolutely no chance we can go down, the same, technically, is true of Wigan as they have to play us, so as things stand there is no side in the race that is relying on other teams results at this point.
It's a bit of a daft staement anyway, as unless you win ALL your games, then to a degree you are always relying on other clubs not picking up more points than you. Even at the other end, you could use it to say Man Utd won the league, but only did so because Man City didn't get more points than them.
About the project thing from a few posts ago:-
I can see why some will look on the bad bits of this season, and there have certainly been enough of them, and not see the groundwork that's being laid. But that's why it's a longterm project and not an instant success. Unless we start spending like crazy again, the other option is a Stoke like approach, where we play for results in the short term, which is also the transfer strategy. You can only go so high doing that, as the MON years showed us, so if you really want to see us challenge again it's either this or the next oil magnate picks us.
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At times this season we've been good and played some very good football.
Yet I can't think of many games where we haven't been completely outplayed.
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At times this season we've been good and played some very good football.
Yet I can't think of many games where we haven't been completely outplayed.
At times. You'd also struggle to find many games where we haven't had a decent period of being the better side (Chelsea is the obvious one, probably tottenham at christmas and man city in november).
We've been inconsistent and we've made a lot of mistakes, the percentage of which that have been punished is very high.
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We've mainly punished ourselves with ridiculous defending.
If we had simply been more competent at the back, that would translate to more confidence through the side and we'd probably be comfortably mid table.
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Man City away we more than held our own until they TWO dodgy penalties, could have been very different if we had scored from one of our chances, as in the LC match there
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It's only Chelsea away, Spurs and Wigan at home where we've been truly awful for pretty much the whole game.
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It's only Chelsea away, Spurs and Wigan at home where we've been truly awful for pretty much the whole game.
And even then, first 45 against Spurzzzzz we looked okay, and against Wigan i'm still convinced if the Holman shot had gone in rather than hit the crossbar we would have got something from that game as we were well on top at that stage.
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It's only Chelsea away, Spurs and Wigan at home where we've been truly awful for pretty much the whole game.
And even then, first 45 against Spurzzzzz we looked okay
Lambert decided he wanted to chase the game at the break, made some substitutions (can't remember if it was 1 or 2) and things fell apart after that.
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It's only Chelsea away, Spurs and Wigan at home where we've been truly awful for pretty much the whole game.
And even then, first 45 against Spurzzzzz we looked okay, and against Wigan i'm still convinced if the Holman shot had gone in rather than hit the crossbar we would have got something from that game as we were well on top at that stage.
first 45 vs spurs we held our own but we were never on top. I agree regarding Wigan, I thought we looked ok later in the first half and we started the 2nd half ok but conceding early in both halves just ruined our confidence.
Man city, like tottenham, I think we were holding them at bay quite well without ever really looking likely to win it, the 2 penalties so close together (about 10 minutes between them i seem to recall) completely knocked us out though and the rest of the 2nd half was pretty dire.
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Lambert: I want to build a top team
VCTM: I want to bang Halle Berry.
Let`s face it neither are gonna happen ! 8)
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It's only Chelsea away, Spurs and Wigan at home where we've been truly awful for pretty much the whole game.
And even then, first 45 against Spurzzzzz we looked okay
Lambert decided he wanted to chase the game at the break, made some substitutions (can't remember if it was 1 or 2) and things fell apart after that.
Makes a change from last season when we would have made to changes to hold onto the 0-0 and then it fell apart.
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It's only Chelsea away, Spurs and Wigan at home where we've been truly awful for pretty much the whole game.
And even then, first 45 against Spurzzzzz we looked okay
Lambert decided he wanted to chase the game at the break, made some substitutions (can't remember if it was 1 or 2) and things fell apart after that.
Makes a change from last season when we would have made to changes to hold onto the 0-0 and then it fell apart.
Without wanting to sound like a TSM fan, I don't recall us falling apart last season. Dire, dreary, defensive yes, falling apart I'm struggling.
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Hope we pull it off tonight but I’m very worried. To be honest, it feels a bit “emperor’s new clothes” to me, this project we’re talking about. I haven’t seen a project developing this season, I’ve seen us struggle with formations, brittle when we concede, using players who have been completely out of their depth in some games, unable to play for 90 minutes, totally and utterly dependent on a single player, who we spent far too much time trying to lump the ball to and without whom we would certainly already have been relegated already. If that’s a project then we need to start looking again at the project manager.
There, said it. Please let me be wrong again....
Now let’s have a fucking scrap against Sunderland tonight and see who wants to stop up the most.
Come on me Villa babbies!!!
Pretty much my feelings, I don't care what the "project" is, putting the club in danger of relegation should never be part of it.
I remain of the mind that should we go down, Lambert should pay the price with his job.
But, I shall be making all too rare visits to Villa Park tonight and for the Chelsea game and will shout myself puce in support of the manager and the team.
I take issue with the "putting the club in danger of relegation" bit.
We were a Ricahard Scudamore brainwave away from it last season, it's not as if he's dragged us down there.
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It's only Chelsea away, Spurs and Wigan at home where we've been truly awful for pretty much the whole game.
And even then, first 45 against Spurzzzzz we looked okay
Lambert decided he wanted to chase the game at the break, made some substitutions (can't remember if it was 1 or 2) and things fell apart after that.
It was an enforced change with Baker going off.
The problem was Herd had been filling the space the Bale runs into and doing a good job cutting him off, when we went to a back 4 Bale started picking through the gap between lowton and herd and completely undid us.
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It's only Chelsea away, Spurs and Wigan at home where we've been truly awful for pretty much the whole game.
I thought we had an absolute shocker at Millwall too. about 5 minutes of good play combined, unless you meant just prem games?
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He's fucking building one and has an elite forward doing his job. Give this lot time and support the manager.
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Wonderful :).
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Yep - keep it going now
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is today only 90 minutes of good performance as we only do 45 minutes in most games this season
.
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Gotta admit, like a lot of fans on here, we were calling for PL's head a few months ago. He has most definitely proved us wrong - Considering the mess McLeish left him, along with the money problems caused by MON, he was up against it from the start.
He has slowly shaped this team, picking up relatively unknown players from the lower leagues and Europe, and is starting to turn them into superstars. There is something immensely satisfying about watching this young team grow and develop, and I for one feel a huge sense of pride in this approach, over the money tossing approach of QPR, Man City, etc.
I would hereby like to offer my wholehearted humble apologies Mr Lambert. I will never doubt you again.
UTV
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Gotta admit, like a lot of fans on here, we were calling for PL's head a few months ago. He has most definitely proved us wrong - Considering the mess McLeish left him, along with the money problems caused by MON, he was up against it from the start.
He has slowly shaped this team, picking up relatively unknown players from the lower leagues and Europe, and is starting to turn them into superstars. There is something immensely satisfying about watching this young team grow and develop, and I for one feel a huge sense of pride in this approach, over the money tossing approach of QPR, Man City, etc.
I would hereby like to offer my wholehearted humble apologies Mr Lambert. I will never doubt you again.
UTV
For all the satisfaction, if we are following the Dortmund model, then inevitably we are going to have gut wrenching moments ahead when some of these guys we are watching grow are going to leave for silly money.
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Gotta admit, like a lot of fans on here, we were calling for PL's head a few months ago. He has most definitely proved us wrong - Considering the mess McLeish left him, along with the money problems caused by MON, he was up against it from the start.
He has slowly shaped this team, picking up relatively unknown players from the lower leagues and Europe, and is starting to turn them into superstars. There is something immensely satisfying about watching this young team grow and develop, and I for one feel a huge sense of pride in this approach, over the money tossing approach of QPR, Man City, etc.
I would hereby like to offer my wholehearted humble apologies Mr Lambert. I will never doubt you again.
UTV
For all the satisfaction, if we are following the Dortmund model, then inevitably we are going to have gut wrenching moments ahead when some of these guys we are watching grow are going to leave for silly money.
You had to spoil it didn't you! :)
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Gotta admit, like a lot of fans on here, we were calling for PL's head a few months ago. He has most definitely proved us wrong - Considering the mess McLeish left him, along with the money problems caused by MON, he was up against it from the start.
He has slowly shaped this team, picking up relatively unknown players from the lower leagues and Europe, and is starting to turn them into superstars. There is something immensely satisfying about watching this young team grow and develop, and I for one feel a huge sense of pride in this approach, over the money tossing approach of QPR, Man City, etc.
I would hereby like to offer my wholehearted humble apologies Mr Lambert. I will never doubt you again.
UTV
For all the satisfaction, if we are following the Dortmund model, then inevitably we are going to have gut wrenching moments ahead when some of these guys we are watching grow are going to leave for silly money.
So long as we use it well i can live with that. There are only a handful of clubs in the world for whom that doesn't apply once the money gets silly enough or the player is determined enough. Where things have gone wrong in the last 5 years is that we done a shit job of replacing players who we've sold for good profit. Replace them effectively and you can grow from it, but replacing young with nzogbia is just bad business (in hindsight).
If Benteke goes for 30+ million (which is clearly the market value currently) use 5-10 on a replacement and the rest on replacing the likes of Hutton, Warnock and Dunne with quality. Get all 3 right and despite losing a genuine worldy we could be a much stronger squad for it, so long as the replacement striker gives us 80-90% of what Benteke offers.
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Gotta admit, like a lot of fans on here, we were calling for PL's head a few months ago. He has most definitely proved us wrong - Considering the mess McLeish left him, along with the money problems caused by MON, he was up against it from the start.
He has slowly shaped this team, picking up relatively unknown players from the lower leagues and Europe, and is starting to turn them into superstars. There is something immensely satisfying about watching this young team grow and develop, and I for one feel a huge sense of pride in this approach, over the money tossing approach of QPR, Man City, etc.
I would hereby like to offer my wholehearted humble apologies Mr Lambert. I will never doubt you again.
UTV
For all the satisfaction, if we are following the Dortmund model, then inevitably we are going to have gut wrenching moments ahead when some of these guys we are watching grow are going to leave for silly money.
So long as we use it well i can live with that. There are only a handful of clubs in the world for whom that doesn't apply once the money gets silly enough or the player is determined enough. Where things have gone wrong in the last 5 years is that we done a shit job of replacing players who we've sold for good profit. Replace them effectively and you can grow from it, but replacing young with nzogbia is just bad business (in hindsight).
If Benteke goes for 30+ million (which is clearly the market value currently) use 5-10 on a replacement and the rest on replacing the likes of Hutton, Warnock and Dunne with quality. Get all 3 right and despite losing a genuine worldy we could be a much stronger squad for it, so long as the replacement striker gives us 80-90% of what Benteke offers.
Finding another Benteke, even at 80% will take a long, long time! He is going to be an iconic player of his generation if he keeps progressing in his current manner. Lambert does give me confidence he could find one though.
I just want him to employ a defender scout.
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Lambert dosen't have a clue about defending but he showed at Norwich you can still win games even if you concede shed loads.
This is finally a Paul Lambert team now. I wanted him out in January I admit as we had Bradford and we looked like nailed on relegation certs which would've been a disaster and a sackable offence. But keep us up and he deserves another year as we look good attacking now rather than first half of the season when we were struggling to even create any chances in a lot of games.
I think the first thing I'd do if Benteke leaves would be on the phone to Chelsea to try and get Lukaku in, if you're talking replacements there's one right there who's scored a good amount in the prem already.
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I think if you were a talented youngster playing in the lower leagues watching last night, you would be pretty excited if you found out that Villa were interested in you this summer. Lambert has shown that he is willing to give young lads a go and it will give us the edge this summer if we have competition for a player's signature.
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I think if you were a talented youngster playing in the lower leagues watching last night, you would be pretty excited if you found out that Villa were interested in you this summer. Lambert has shown that he is willing to give young lads a go and it will give us the edge this summer if we have competition for a player's signature.
This is an excellent point, and i'd like to think that eventually other teams will cotton on to the same strategy and some sanity might return to the transfer market. But if it doesn't, and we reap the benefits from doing it the long-term way, we'll have a very happy decade ahead.
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I think if you were a talented youngster playing in the lower leagues watching last night, you would be pretty excited if you found out that Villa were interested in you this summer. Lambert has shown that he is willing to give young lads a go and it will give us the edge this summer if we have competition for a player's signature.
This is an excellent point, and i'd like to think that eventually other teams will cotton on to the same strategy and some sanity might return to the transfer market. But if it doesn't, and we reap the benefits from doing it the long-term way, we'll have a very happy decade ahead.
If you were a current England international centre half, who supported the club as a kid, and was about to leave your present club, you'd also look at that and think "Hold on a minute..................."
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This season has been a real rollercoaster however there have been more magic moments (a good barometer of this is usually how mental the goal celebrations are) in the last few weeks (ie QPR home, Stoke away, and last night) than the whole season under McLeish. Even the wins were boring under him.
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Paul Lambert need to get Olof/Martin/Shaun/Allan Evans back and they can help to coach the defenders and tell him who is worth buying for defenders and maybe help out in tactics, and let Paul Lambert carry out his vision and plans. Paul Lambert is doing a good job so far but he need a better supporting act and advice and coaches.
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This season has been a real rollercoaster however there have been more magic moments (a good barometer of this is usually how mental the goal celebrations are) in the last few weeks (ie QPR home, Stoke away, and last night) than the whole season under McLeish. Even the wins were boring under him.
Agreed. Even though we've suffered our worst ever defeat and our most humiliating defeat it still hasn't been as bad as last season. The malaise around the place last year stunk. And I was saying that before last night even.
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This season has been a real rollercoaster however there have been more magic moments (a good barometer of this is usually how mental the goal celebrations are) in the last few weeks (ie QPR home, Stoke away, and last night) than the whole season under McLeish. Even the wins were boring under him.
Finally the plain unvarnished truth at H&V.
Spot on Marlon. Spot on.
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I have never doubted Lambert's ability to craft a decent squad but have been critical of his tactics and team selection on occasions; Chelsea away being the obvious example where we should have changed the formation and shut up shop after their second goal.
My main concern is the 45-minutes syndrome: last night was the first game I can recall where we strung together a full 90-minute programme of football. Whether that is to do with Lambert directly or a function of the callowness of our team / squad, I don't know.
Let's see whether is is sustainable over the next three games.
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I may be in the minority but i'd prefer going to Chelsea and trying to score and end up losing 8-0 than going somewhere and hoping to keep it down to 2 or 3.
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I have never doubted Lambert's ability to craft a decent squad but have been critical of his tactics and team selection on occasions; Chelsea away being the obvious example where we should have changed the formation and shut up shop after their second goal.
My main concern is the 45-minutes syndrome: last night was the first game I can recall where we strung together a full 90-minute programme of football. Whether that is to do with Lambert directly or a function of the callowness of our team / squad, I don't know.
Let's see whether is is sustainable over the next three games.
Probably with you on this, his formation and team selection concerned me and I think after bradford he could have easily bitten the bullet but since we have settled on a formation and way of play that suits the team we have improved greatly.
The players he has bought have been shrewd signings and in the main a great success - he has turned things around over the last few months and there are no doubt encouraging signs of a decent team for the future.
The lack of a central defender coming in January was cause for concern too but I am delighted to be proved wrong by lambert - now lets finish the season in style and look ahead to a much better season next year.
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Paul Lambert need to get Olof/Martin/Shaun/Allan Evans back and they can help to coach the defenders and tell him who is worth buying for defenders and maybe help out in tactics, and let Paul Lambert carry out his vision and plans. Paul Lambert is doing a good job so far but he need a better supporting act and advice and coaches.
His back room staff have been with him through the years and i doubt very much if he will change things .
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Wouldn't it be nice to hammer Norwich, like we did in the League Cup? I believe the team that Lambert has put together is quite capable of doing just that. It's all coming together, just at the right time.
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I would respectfully suggest that a team that has conceded in 19 Prem games on the bounce does not get ahead of itself.
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I would respectfully suggest that a team that has conceded in 19 Prem games on the bounce does not get ahead of itself.
Fair point but if you can't enjoy the day after a 6-1 win what can you enjoy?
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I would respectfully suggest that a team that has conceded in 19 Prem games on the bounce does not get ahead of itself.
Fair point but if you can't enjoy the day after a 6-1 win what can you enjoy?
It was bouncing in the Holte last night,superb!
I just urge caution,thats all!
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I just urge caution,thats all!
Fuck caution, Lambert doesn't do caution and nor do I!
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Lambert: I want to build a top team
VCTM: I want to bang Halle Berry.
Let`s face it neither are gonna happen ! 8)
If we carry on like last night, you never know you might be getting across the fair Halle after all
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This season has been totally incomparable to last. OK, we've had some dreadful results and records broken, but at least there is some semblance of a plan, of aspiring to something better.
Last year felt very much like, had we kept McLeish on, it would have been exactly the same from us, year after year.
That's why the fans are sticking with Lambert more than they did McLeish, nothing to do with all that "you hate him because he came from Small Heath" bollocks.
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I just urge caution,thats all!
Fuck caution, Lambert doesn't do caution and nor do I!
Too fucking right Dave.
Caution can suck my balls.
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McLeish did caution.
Lambert does ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK.
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I would respectfully suggest that a team that has conceded in 19 Prem games on the bounce does not get ahead of itself.
Fair point but if you can't enjoy the day after a 6-1 win what can you enjoy?
Chocolate chip ice cream and a Bacardi and coke ?
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Lambert: I want to build a top team
VCTM: I want to bang Halle Berry.
Let`s face it neither are gonna happen ! 8)
I volunteer to drown him in the Mersey. Should my services be needed just PM me. Ta muchly. UTV.
If we carry on like last night, you never know you might be getting across the fair Halle after all
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Lambert: I want to build a top team
VCTM: I want to bang Halle Berry.
Let`s face it neither are gonna happen ! 8)
If we carry on like last night, you never know you might be getting across the fair Halle after all
He can't hear you, he's too busy doing Halle Berry.
Ya know I'd love Villa to win 8-0 on Saturday, but then I'd love to shag Scarlett Johansson!
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Back onto the building project
There is a good interview with Delph, who I feel deserves as much credit as any in the upturn since the end of Jan, he and Westy have become really well suited to each other.
http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/396085/Christian-Benteke-s-raw-power-is-lifting-Aston-Villa-to-safety
Christian Benteke’s hat-trick in Monday’s 6-1 win stunned Sunderland and made Villa favourites to beat the drop.
Benteke now has 22 goals in his debut season in English football – with 14 in 2013, he is behind only Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo in Europe – and his value has more than tripled the £7SHrSmillion it took to buy him from Genk in the summer.
At 6ft 3in tall and 13st, Benteke looks so formidable that team-mate Fabian Delph asked him if he ate raw meat when he first arrived at the club.
“He is an absolute monster,” said Delph. “Defenders must come up against this boy and think, ‘He is 22, let’s try to rough him up’. But every centre-back who has tried has failed.
“Benteke is a natural monster. He doesn’t do any upper bodywork whatsoever. He works on his core strength. He works on his legs.
“I have never met anyone like him. When he came here I asked him whether he ate raw meat. He said, ‘No, it is just natural’.
“John Carew, who played for us, was very similar. He was very strong. But Christian is 22. John was much older.
“Benteke has dragged us through so many games. I was surprised he didn’t get young player of the season. He came second, but he should have won.
“He is my pal so I am biased but, even from the outside, you would have thought he would be up there – if not getting it, then very close.”
Eighteen of Benteke’s goals have come in the Premier League and he needs two more from three games to become the first Villa player since Peter Withe 32 years ago to score 20 in the league.
“That doesn’t surprise me,” said Delph. “Benteke looks like he could get more. We have three games to go and I could put a bet on him to score at least another three or four. He is young as well.
“It looks like we are building. We aren’t clear yet, but if we are building around players such as Benteke and we manage to keep him – which I think we are going to – then the future has to look brighter than it has done for years. Benteke is really happy here. We are like a little family. People on the outside probably think it looks like a creche, we are just full of kids.
“But we are all very mature boys. We all live good, clean lifestyles. There are no egos in the dressing room.
“Sunderland was a massive win for us. The teams around us must be thinking, ‘Oh, we did not expect that’. We have been down at the bottom most of the season. We are comfortable down there. There is no pressure on us. We are a young team, we have fire in our bellies and we give it our all.”
Manager Paul Lambert, who was recommended to watch Benteke in the Belgian league and bought him while others dallied, labels him “world class”.
“I can’t speak highly enough of Benteke,” said Lambert. “He has been outstanding in a season that has been full of pressure games in his first taste of playing in this league. He can go on to be whatever he wants to be.”
Villa are in the driving seat in the relegation race now and Lambert would suck his old club Norwich into the situation if he follows up the demolition of Sunderland with a victory at Carrow Road on Saturday.
“It might sound mad but we are not feeling that much pressure,” added Delph.
“We have been selected to do a job and that is what we have been doing. I hope we have put the frighteners on other teams.”
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Back onto the building project
There is a good interview with Delph, who I feel deserves as much credit as any in the upturn since the end of Jan, he and Westy have become really well suited to each other.
http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/396085/Christian-Benteke-s-raw-power-is-lifting-Aston-Villa-to-safety
Christian Benteke’s hat-trick in Monday’s 6-1 win stunned Sunderland and made Villa favourites to beat the drop.
“It might sound mad but we are not feeling that much pressure,” added Delph.
“We have been selected to do a job and that is what we have been doing. I hope we have put the frighteners on other teams.”
They probably have.
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Delph has been great this year, shows what fitness, a run of games and confidence can do for a player many had written off long ago. I can see Bennett doing the same.
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What has stood out about Delph, Lowton, Westwood and Bennett has been the way they seem comfortable accepting the ball under pressure and have the confidence to carry it clear of opponents if the situation suits.
We've had Villa teams trying to pass the ball about in the past at times, but have lacked the basic skills to do it effectively.
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What has stood out about Delph, Lowton, Westwood and Bennett has been the way they seem comfortable accepting the ball under pressure and have the confidence to carry it clear of opponents if the situation suits.
We've had Villa teams trying to pass the ball about in the past at times, but have lacked the basic skills to do it effectively.
I was very impressed with the way we kept possession the other night, in tight spaces when being closed down especially towards the touchline, playing 1 touch triangles to get forward, or accepting the need to go backwards if need be.
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Difficult to talk about long term when we're by no means certain to even stay up. I'd have a bit more faith in the long term planning if Lambert and the board had taken the necessary steps to strengthen the defence in January.
Like Newcastle and QPR did?
What a fabulous argument. Other teams bought shit players so it's a reason for us not to bother. Brilliant. Worked out well that particular ploy.
Chucking money at the problem rather than developing those you have has worked out tremendously for those two clubs, hasn't it?
And if the Jawdees do drop, the business they did in January will just compound their problems.
I don't have a problem with developing our players, but sticking rigidly to a strategy that clearly isn't working is the mark of stupidity and a badly run and managed club. If we go down, it'll set us back years, and our financial state is far worse than Newcastle's.
It's starting to work...
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Difficult to talk about long term when we're by no means certain to even stay up. I'd have a bit more faith in the long term planning if Lambert and the board had taken the necessary steps to strengthen the defence in January.
Like Newcastle and QPR did?
What a fabulous argument. Other teams bought shit players so it's a reason for us not to bother. Brilliant. Worked out well that particular ploy.
Chucking money at the problem rather than developing those you have has worked out tremendously for those two clubs, hasn't it?
And if the Jawdees do drop, the business they did in January will just compound their problems.
I don't have a problem with developing our players, but sticking rigidly to a strategy that clearly isn't working is the mark of stupidity and a badly run and managed club. If we go down, it'll set us back years, and our financial state is far worse than Newcastle's.
It's starting to work...
Now we need to add consistency.
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The bit that get's me from that is the 'clearly isn't working'. How can you know that? I'm sure they didn't expect or want to be in quite the position we are in now, but this season was never the focus. When you see the development of players like Benteke, Westwood, Weimann and Lowton, then that shows to me it IS working. If one or two seniors had contributed more (Dunne!) then we'd be in an easier position league wise, but still probably bottom half somewhere.
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The bit that get's me from that is the 'clearly isn't working'. How can you know that? I'm sure they didn't expect or want to be in quite the position we are in now, but this season was never the focus. When you see the development of players like Benteke, Westwood, Weimann and Lowton, then that shows to me it IS working. If one or two seniors had contributed more (Dunne!) then we'd be in an easier position league wise, but still probably bottom half somewhere.
The fact that we are only 5 points off 9 th place shows how tight things are outside the top 6 - we have had a poor season but undoubtedly inproved in recent months and had we held onto to leads better on a couple of occasions could have been top 10 this season.
The addition of 2 or 3 players and I feel this team could do well next season and finish top half .
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The bit that get's me from that is the 'clearly isn't working'. How can you know that? I'm sure they didn't expect or want to be in quite the position we are in now, but this season was never the focus. When you see the development of players like Benteke, Westwood, Weimann and Lowton, then that shows to me it IS working. If one or two seniors had contributed more (Dunne!) then we'd be in an easier position league wise, but still probably bottom half somewhere.
The fact that we are only 5 points off 9 th place shows how tight things are outside the top 6 - we have had a poor season but undoubtedly inproved in recent months and had we held onto to leads better on a couple of occasions could have been top 10 this season.
The addition of 2 or 3 players and I feel this team could do well next season and finish top half.
You won't find me disagreeing with that, eastie!
However, I do think we need to set our sights a little higher financially. A young CB signing may not solve our problems, but an experienced one might. Our overall spend should be spread over less players this summer and we've also got more going out, thereby freeing more wages, so we should be able to do something like that, if Lambert wants to.
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Isn't this sort of how everyone builds a team while managing a video game team anyway? You trade out all the old guard and replace them with the wonder-kids who will be world class in 4 or 5 years? Of course in life, you don't have the benefit of hitting the reset button when an opposing team gives you an 0-6 beatdown.
In actual practice though, this is has still shown to be successful. You've got teams like the USA Hockey team of 1980 and the Yugoslavian basketball team of 1990. Throw the kids together. Take your lumps early. Let them gel together and gain some chemistry, and in a year or so you've got a team that's not only young and talented, but also know how to play together.
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Has Villa across the Mersey been on to celebrate yet or is he waiting until we lose our first game of next season to come on and have a whinge?
[smiling wink yellow man thing]
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Has Villa across the Mersey been on to celebrate yet or is he waiting until we lose our first game of next season to come on and have a whinge?
[smiling wink yellow man thing]
If I was shagging Halle Berry I'd be too busy to post on here as well!
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Has Villa across the Mersey been on to celebrate yet or is he waiting until we lose our first game of next season to come on and have a whinge?
[smiling wink yellow man thing]
If I was shagging Halle Berry I'd be too busy to post on here as well!
It would be three minutes well spent.
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Has Villa across the Mersey been on to celebrate yet or is he waiting until we lose our first game of next season to come on and have a whinge?
[smiling wink yellow man thing]
If I was shagging Halle Berry I'd be too busy to post on here as well!
It would be three minutes well spent.
I like an optimist.
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I would be doing it twice to get my monies worth.
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Isn't this sort of how everyone builds a team while managing a video game team anyway? You trade out all the old guard and replace them with the wonder-kids who will be world class in 4 or 5 years? Of course in life, you don't have the benefit of hitting the reset button when an opposing team gives you an 0-6 beatdown.
In actual practice though, this is has still shown to be successful. You've got teams like the USA Hockey team of 1980 and the Yugoslavian basketball team of 1990. Throw the kids together. Take your lumps early. Let them gel together and gain some chemistry, and in a year or so you've got a team that's not only young and talented, but also know how to play together.
A better, and more focuseed example of this is Barcelona. A lot of their current team is home grown (even if they had a spell away) and there's a lot in their mid-twenties who've grown up together. Take most of their players and put them in another side and they wouldn't be as good. That consistency and attitude is key to making a team greater than the sum of it's parts - and when you have parts of the quality of Benteke working in that your potential is massive.
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Has Villa across the Mersey been on to celebrate yet or is he waiting until we lose our first game of next season to come on and have a whinge?
[smiling wink yellow man thing]
Hi Ads
This is literally the first opportunity to sit at the keyboard since Monday night - yes I wish the reason was Halle related - no such luck.
I was intending to miss the game as VCTM jnr was involved with local cricket - he said he would give it a miss and I thought likewise - not looking forward to the drive and not having a travelling companion.
I parked myself in front of the PC and fired up Heroes and Villains - all the pre match excitement and preamble got me thinking whether I should relent - Ms VCTM said - "Why don`t you just go Dad" - in that impatient tone that all teenagers seem to use.
It was 4.30pm - should or or shouldn`t I?.I read of people travelling up from London and decided to hit the road.
Am I glad I did? - you bet I was.
Saw Percy pre match and acknowledged Mr Woodhall - I had a conversation with a friendly steward and settled down for a period of my usual moaning - grumbling. What a game ! Mind you at 4-1 I was still convinced we would **** it up !! - Oh me of little faith.!!
I cruelly called Jnr after each goal just to remind him of what he was missing.
I must confess I didn`t see that coming - at 6-1 the steward made a b-line for me and castigated me for my pessimism pre match - my feelings regarding the Villa has always been - " Expect the worst and be pleasantly surprised when we occasionally come up with a result and performance like that".
Do I think Lambert is the dog`s doofers? - let`s wait until the 19th.
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Just watching a re-run of the Footballers Football show on Sky now and Lee Clark was being very complimentary about Paul Lambert and Villa in general. Not sure that will go down too well with the less enlightened followers of the team across the city!! Neil Warnock was also on there and was also complimentary, but said that we needed one experienced CB to strengthen the defence.
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Neil Warnock was also on there and was also complimentary, but said that we needed one experienced CB to strengthen the defence.
Tell us something we didn't already know Warnock!