Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: brian green on March 02, 2013, 08:41:38 PM
-
Somebody on TV just started singing New York. It made me so sad I had to turn it off. It took me back to those happy long gone days when Dwight still loved us and we still loved him and BFR was our manager and we won things and being a Villa fan was great.
Things have become so sour and nasty and unpleasant and are set to get worse. Is all we have to look forward to more of the same? Will we ever be happy again? Really happy, not less unhappy?
-
We've come back from worse. You never know what's around the corner, and all that.
-
I'm sure we didn't sing that to Dwight under BFR. I'm sure back then his song was what I always called the clock chiming tune.
And yes we will.
-
Brian, the days of Dwight were not the really happy days!
I go back to Little, Gray and Deehan for my happy-days 'fix'.
We are in an era where heritage means nothing and living one's past glories are derided.
An era where if the chairman is not prepared to piss he needs to get off the effing pot.
An era in which the live fan is less important than the virtual.
Where a manager's sell-by is 6 months rather than 18-26.
Where a player earns more than the manager and where the player's agent is the key decision-maker in their relationship with the club.
Where following a team for life is just not hip!
So ...
Up the Villa, through thick, thin and the changing bloody eras!
-
We will always be Villa and we will always have something to smile about brian.
-
I'm sure we didn't sing that to Dwight under BFR. I'm sure back then his song was what I always called the clock chiming tune.
And yes we will.
Im pretty sure I recall BFR singing it prior to a televised cup tie at Liverpool ,
-
I am slightly concerned that there is an entire generation of Villa supporters who have never seen us win anything, or were too young to really remember our last trophy at Wembley.
It's shit for the younger fans; huge expense to see their team, Villa look as far away from a trophy as ever, and they live in an era when money doesn't just talk but bellows.
-
Well during that era, winning League cups n'shit, I was just a youngen. Everything was more exciting back then before the harsh realities of life and work kicked in. So I think personally, my age has something to do with just how much I can enjoy football. I'll never be as swept away by the Villa as I was then. I'll never hero worship a player like I did Yorkie again.
But yeah the state of the modern game also has a lot to do with it as well. It's very hard to like players now, even your own.
But just going back to this whole new generation of Villa fans who's best experience has been a few 6th place finishes. It is a shame. I don't think they'll experience what those back in the early 80's did, or even the early to mid 90's. I've been with my Mrs 2 and a bit years. She knows chuff all about football, not a fan by any stretch. Sometimes she'll ask me though, "Why is your team shit?" Then I have to go into great detail explaining to her why we're shit at which point she stares at me blankly and drifts off to her happy place. A world without football. But since she's known me all she's known is that my team struggles down the bottom. If we bring a new life into the world, and I force him to become a Villa fan (it may have to be at gunpoint) then I feel like I'll be consigning someone to a footballing fan life of dredgery whilst his little mates go and switch allegience between whichever club is fashionable or winning at the time.
Still, If a sign of mine ends up a Utd or City fan, I'll be taking my belt off! Ha ha.
Villa for life though. Good times, bad times, and the achingly dull times that you tend to forget.
-
I am slightly concerned that there is an entire generation of Villa supporters who have never seen us win anything, or were too young to really remember our last trophy at Wembley.
It's shit for the younger fans; huge expense to see their team, Villa look as far away from a trophy as ever, and they live in an era when money doesn't just talk but bellows.
We are one of many, many teams who haven't won anything for a long time (others longer and many never winning anything). You support who you support and get on with it.
-
CBBB is bang on. Everton have won nothing since '95. Newcastle since TV's were the same colour as their shirts. Man City went over 30 years with nothing. It's VTID for a reason.
-
I am slightly concerned that there is an entire generation of Villa supporters who have never seen us win anything, or were too young to really remember our last trophy at Wembley.
It's shit for the younger fans; huge expense to see their team, Villa look as far away from a trophy as ever, and they live in an era when money doesn't just talk but bellows.
We are one of many, many teams who haven't won anything for a long time (others longer and many never winning anything). You support who you support and get on with it.
Of course. My post was inspired by a post further up the thread which talked about 'past glories'. The younger fans have nothing to look back on apart from a couple of European matches and some top 6 finishes.
-
Not under this owner
-
From the personal perspective of someone who started taking an interest post-European Cup, then this is on a par with the Billy Mcneil season for me in the low point stakes with mebbe a bit more hope we can survive. I'm sure the crumblies on here can remember worse. If we go down, then it could be far worse than the 80's because at least we appointed a manager who knew what he was doing then. This time, who knows who we'll get, possibly even lambchop!
Lets face it, 5 years ago no-one on here would have bet on us facing the league champions from Manchester without United at the end of their name, so where we'll be in 5 years is anyone's guess. Happier? I think so. Even if it goes really pear-shaped, the memories of our stab at the big time will have faded a bit more. At the moment its too fresh in the mind.
-
We could have had 2 league cups in the last 3 years.
-
-
It's getting so bad that I'm considering allowing my 2 year old to just fucking pick whoever he wants to support when gets to be old enough. There's very little chance that he'll be going to more than a handful of Villa games in the next decade or two so I don't think it will ever really be within him to accept that he just HAS to support them because that's who I chose for him. Without the connection that he'll make by actually going and seeing, hearing and smelling Villa Park twenty times a year throughout his youth I honestly don't think he'd be able to make the decision like I did in 1987 as a very sad 8 year old after my first season of going. It was dreadful but as I was so encapsulated by the whole event I can look back now and, despite how bleak things appear, rest assured that I alone made that choice to keep going for the following 20 years. The rewards came in winning the League Cups and seeing us play some exhilirating stuff with the teams of 89/90, 92/93 and 95/96. As long as there's even a remote chance that we'll see something akin to those styles again then I'll keep believing that we can indeed be happy again.
Of course, living out here, the choices my boy will have are between playing Rugby or supporting one of the teams that every other kid over here does - United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Barcelona, Real Madrid and for some bloody reason Liverpool. Which should a father really be hoping for out of those options?!
-
I don't think so.
-
We are very broken, in many ways, from the very top down, right through. And there's more money and debt in the game now than ever before.
-
I don't think things will get any worse. I am sure there will be a time in the next couple of seasons when we knock on the door of something special. I also can see a time when we get melodramatic again, such as threads like this.
-
I don't think things will get any worse. I am sure there will be a time in the next couple of seasons when we knock on the door of something special. I also can see a time when we get melodramatic again, such as threads like this.
I'd say we've a one in three chance of staying up, and if we do go down, we'll be probably knackered.
-
One in three? A 66% chance that we will be relegated?
-
It's getting so bad that I'm considering allowing my 2 year old to just fucking pick whoever he wants to support when gets to be old enough. There's very little chance that he'll be going to more than a handful of Villa games in the next decade or two so I don't think it will ever really be within him to accept that he just HAS to support them because that's who I chose for him.
Clearly it's difficult for you out there to make him Villa when in the coming years his school mates will be be all following Champion's League teams. I am having difficulty here in Birmingham however there is nothing like taking a youngster to Villa Park. Turn up a bit early walk around the outside. Pop into the shop watch the fans walk up past Aston Parish Church look up to the Holte. Another walk that does make it a wonderful setting is through the park. Ones the kids have done that once or twice they are hooked. So let him go free now but I am sure when you guys come over and he goes to VP he will be hooked. Just keep reminding him now and than.
On the team itself I am much happier now than I have for a few years as I see that there is a sustainable method emerging. Lets survive this year and than I believe we will rise again.
-
I don't think things will get any worse. I am sure there will be a time in the next couple of seasons when we knock on the door of something special. I also can see a time when we get melodramatic again, such as threads like this.
I'd say we've a one in three chance of staying up, and if we do go down, we'll be probably knackered.
Lets not make this another miserable thread. Keep it positive.
-
One in three? A 66% chance that we will be relegated?
Sounds about right. 8/11 with most bookies, so around that.
-
I don't think things will get any worse. I am sure there will be a time in the next couple of seasons when we knock on the door of something special. I also can see a time when we get melodramatic again, such as threads like this.
I'd say we've a one in three chance of staying up, and if we do go down, we'll be probably knackered.
Lets not make this another miserable thread. Keep it positive.
Did you even read the opening post?
-
If we stay up this season I will be overjoyed.
-
If we stay up this season I will be overjoyed.
So will I. Like the weight of the world lifted off my shoulders. It's been a horrible season.
-
Sadly the short answer to the OP is no - unless a middle east consortium or Warren Buffet take us over. Because of the way modern football is, that's the only way we'll ever be competitive again. And I suspect even that would feel hollow.
-
People don't want to hear it but the fact is that there is no good news. The Villa fans who witnessed Villa's glories in the latter decades of the 20th Century will be the last generation who will know what it was like to be the best or even be contenders.
Football has collided with the neoliberal nightmare and football lost - that nightmare being a dystopia where those with the most money get to wield their block votes.
As is generally understood big capital has throughout history sought monopoly and has done its best to avoid competition and we are seeing the exact same process taking place in football as the industry moves towards a de facto franchise system to protect the big clubs from competition and exclude new arrivals into the sector.
All promoted by a lie which is the exact opposite of the truth - that it is to protect smaller clubs.
But happiness will still be possible because once the Villa have learned to accept their new Uriah Heep status, expectations will be lowered and a brave performance in the cup against one of the mega-clubs will be seen as some kind of achievement.
Villa are in the process of becoming the Ronnie Barker of football clubs, from the famous, "I look up to him and down on him" sketch, with Cleese and Corbett.
-
Jeez, what a depressing read
-
You cynical bastard Villadroid, and the truth you have spoken really hurts - but as you say, we will learn to live with it. Still we don't stop supporting our club just because we're floating in shit with a little boy paddling our boat.
-
Everything will turn out alright in the end
-
If we stay up this season I will be overjoyed.
That goes without saying, but unless some radical changes are made, it will just be a stay of execution.
-
It's ok John Joe, it's ok.
-
I'm quite looking forward to us invading some 'Division 1' clubs' grounds next season
Will take me back to 87/88 and the early 70s
-
Will we get a mindset of stopping up being a successful season?
-
Football has always largely been about money buying success, but these days, it is more so. It is a prerequisite.
The majority of clubs dont really have a history of winning things, or competing, so it will be easier to accept, but it always seems to me that certain clubs - and I am thinking the likes of Villa, Everton, Spurs, Liverpool, Newcastle, Sunderland, the sort of clubs who in the past have won stuff, and who might have a history of being competitive, these clubs are going to find it much harder to accept.
The ability to compete is not there any more, because the only way to do it with any permanence is to have someone with a gigantic amount of money behind them who can buy this for you.
It is also fine and dandy to suggest breaking the top four means "arriving" at the top table in some way, but it doesn't, really. It didn't really do that much for Everton when they were in it, for example, because they were in it one year. These days, you need to be in it pretty much every year, and it's not going to happen without huge money.
I'm 44, and consider myself lucky, because in my time following / supporting Villa, I've seen us win a league title, a european cup, and four league cups. The newer generations of fans aren't going to get to see that.
-
I'm quite looking forward to us invading some 'Division 1' clubs' grounds next season
Will take me back to 87/88 and the early 70s
Only it won't happen Richard - can't just turn up and pay on the gate these days.
Would we even be the best supported club in the Championship?
-
Will we get a mindset of stopping up being a successful season?
We would then be called Wigan FFS.
We are Aston Villa and we will be at the top again. So keep the faith and keep smiling and soon we will be there again.
-
Would we even be the best supported club in the Championship?
Brighton have the current best crowd average with 25,550. So yes, I think we would.
-
Would we even be the best supported club in the Championship?
Brighton have the current best crowd average with 25,550. So yes, I think we would.
That could be our new motto for the Championship: "Marginally bigger than Brighton".
-
When has happiness been fundamentally and exclusively linked with success?
Equally just spending oodles of cash will not guarantee happiness. There are many other facets that will dictate happiness, such as pride effort, endeavour and honesty.
-
When has happiness been fundamentally and exclusively linked with success?
Equally just spending oodles of cash will not guarantee happiness. There are many other facets that will dictate happiness, such as pride effort, endeavour and honesty.
That is all very well, but happiness does not feature in the product line of the factory of sadness.
-
Did you even read the opening post?
Well...actually I didn't as I thought the page I hit (2) was the start! So apologies I should have realised it was another doomsday thread in the first place from the start.
-
Until something is done to change the madness that is English football, I do not believe we will compete at the top again in my lifetime.
There is too much money at stake for the 'governing body' that runs football in this country to want to change the status quo. This 'governing body' is now TV and other media. The ruling bodies of the game just kowtow to TV as they are dependent on the money they give. With a top four that is almost guaranteed entry in the Champions League, TV do not need more than four teams to compete at the top of the PL. From four teams, there are enough games between them and against 'cannon fodder' that they can generate enough interest to sell their product.
This idea can work in other countries where there are less 'big city' clubs but in England we have a big league with far more than a handfull of clubs that could support a team at the top, given a chance. Foreign investors are starting to realise that there are too many very rich clubs in England now for them to come in and buy their way to the top. Man Utd are almost self-sufficient in supporting a team that will always be at the top. Man City's backers are here for the forceable future. Abramovich does not seem to be losing his appetite for the game. The big backers are looking elsewhere across Europe and beyond, so anybody hoping that an arab from the desert supported by oil $s rolls up at B6 are sadly living in dreamland.
As I said, nobody with a say in how the game is now run wants to change it. There are many things that could be done to make the PL more competitive, if only there was an interest.
-
Happiness in football is a last minute winner or equaliser, or seeing out a result when you didn't think you would, or making up a daft song, and everyone enjoying singing it together (It's up to you....), or daft running jokes with the mates you go with or the people around you. That is why you can be just as happy supporting Dagenham & Redbridge as you can supporting Manchester United - probably happier, because your expectations are less. Happiness isn't rooted in results, but unhappiness is rooted in expectations. We should expect to do better as a club of our size than we are doing right now, but as part of the joy of football is the unexpected, there have to be bigger clubs under performing to allow the littler ones their moments. It's just the way it all goes round. Not saying relegation wouldn't hurt but I can definitely be just as happy supporting Villa in any division.
-
Happiness in football is a last minute winner or equaliser, or seeing out a result when you didn't think you would, or making up a daft song, and everyone enjoying singing it together (It's up to you....), or daft running jokes with the mates you go with or the people around you. That is why you can be just as happy supporting Dagenham & Redbridge as you can supporting Manchester United - probably happier, because your expectations are less. Happiness isn't rooted in results, but unhappiness is rooted in expectations. We should expect to do better as a club of our size than we are doing right now, but as part of the joy of football is the unexpected, there have to be bigger clubs under performing to allow the littler ones their moments. It's just the way it all goes round. Not saying relegation wouldn't hurt but I can definitely be just as happy supporting Villa in any division.
Exactly. Thank you.
I'd imagine that 90% of folks on here would give their non-wanking arm to be Everton right now. But at the end of the season they're going to be gutted because they'll miss out on the mystical/money making 4th spot. So will their season be one of failure or success?
If we went down, would that mean you couldn't enjoy winning the championship the following year?
-
Happiness in football is a last minute winner or equaliser, or seeing out a result when you didn't think you would, or making up a daft song, and everyone enjoying singing it together (It's up to you....), or daft running jokes with the mates you go with or the people around you. That is why you can be just as happy supporting Dagenham & Redbridge as you can supporting Manchester United - probably happier, because your expectations are less. Happiness isn't rooted in results, but unhappiness is rooted in expectations. We should expect to do better as a club of our size than we are doing right now, but as part of the joy of football is the unexpected, there have to be bigger clubs under performing to allow the littler ones their moments. It's just the way it all goes round. Not saying relegation wouldn't hurt but I can definitely be just as happy supporting Villa in any division.
Marvellous.
And exactly.
-
I'm sure we didn't sing that to Dwight under BFR. I'm sure back then his song was what I always called the clock chiming tune.
And yes we will.
It was when little was in charge and the cup final against dirty Leeds.
-
I'm sure we didn't sing that to Dwight under BFR. I'm sure back then his song was what I always called the clock chiming tune.
And yes we will.
Im pretty sure I recall BFR singing it prior to a televised cup tie at Liverpool ,
I remember that too. Villa players doing the karaoke in a hotel, pre match, and big Ron grabs the mike and starts doing a Sinatra impression singing Dwight Yorke Dwight Yorke. First time I ever heard this version.
-
Happiness in football is a last minute winner or equaliser, or seeing out a result when you didn't think you would, or making up a daft song, and everyone enjoying singing it together (It's up to you....), or daft running jokes with the mates you go with or the people around you. That is why you can be just as happy supporting Dagenham & Redbridge as you can supporting Manchester United - probably happier, because your expectations are less. Happiness isn't rooted in results, but unhappiness is rooted in expectations. We should expect to do better as a club of our size than we are doing right now, but as part of the joy of football is the unexpected, there have to be bigger clubs under performing to allow the littler ones their moments. It's just the way it all goes round. Not saying relegation wouldn't hurt but I can definitely be just as happy supporting Villa in any division.
I don't agree with this.
It has a certain specious appeal but there are just too many contradictions and logically false claims.
It claims that "happiness is not rooted in results" which suggests that the fans feel exactly the same no matter what the result(s). I don't think that is true.
The claim that "unhappiness in rooted in expectations" is true but unless Villa fans have very low expectations, it is not a promise of future happiness but in fact the promise of future unhappiness.
In short this reassurance can only work if Villa fans have no greater expectations than fans of Dagenham and Redbridge, which seems unlikely.
The BFR era will remain a high-water mark of Villa delight and happiness and is unlikely to be matched in the foreseeable future.
-
Along with the obvious trophy/promotion/runners up seasons one of my favourite years was BFR's first season. Games like Sheffield Wednesday and Spurs in the league and Derby and Spurs in the cup are right up there with my favourite ever away games.
-
It was almost as good under Little, and there were lots of highlights under Gregory and O'Neill. The last three years have been utterly miserable though, and reminds me of how I felt when Mark Ansell said that buying Angel for £9.5m was a big mistake and that we'd never make that mistake again.
-
There was an aritificial happiness under pubehead/Lerner based presumably on the assumption we had a tactical genius in the manager's seat and a guy who would bankroll us off it. The 2nd bit was obviously encouraged by Lerner and his pals with the "no budget" mantra and whispers about paying 30m for a player. A lot of the abject misery since then is the comedown from that I believe. We were promised top players, attractive football and the CL, and we got Ireland, hoofball and probably relegation.
-
I'll never be that happy again.
I'm an optimist and don't see everything bad but in all honesty, when Gareth Barry left that was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. Players come and go and all that, but it was all about money at that point.
Now I'm turned off football and to be honest it feels like I go through the motions. I debate on here, I'll watch other matches live but can't even be arsed to watch MoTD, I skip through to watch us get beaten again but that's it.
My season ticket didn't get renewed under MON as that's when Barry left and there really hasn't been anything since to convince me to get another. I was almost tempted to be a glory hunter and buy a half season ticket in case we got to the Carling Cup final but in the end realised I didn't want to spend a load of money on football any more.
It's a longish round trip and the cost of travel etc puts me off, now that I've a little one on the way I can see my interest diminishing further. Until, of course, I have a child that I'll make sure has an interest, if it's a son then there will be vision and silky skills and I'll become one of those dads that gets very excited on the touchline and I make sure he's signed up to the Villa academy!!
-
I don't think Barry left for more money. He left to win things. Just as depressing though.
-
Same thing nowadays. The clubs that win things pay the most money. Never had a problem with Barry leaving, or Young and Milner for that matter. Barry did his time and we made a big profit.
-
I've always been happy being a Villa supporter, I cannot envisage being anything else. OK it aint great at the moment but, it's still Aston Villa and it's what I'm happy being; an Aston Villa supporter. Results are like the weather; constantly changing. Success is, in the main fleeting. There will come a time when it swings in our favour again so in the meantime I'll just keep smiling.
NURSE! he's out of bed again!
-
Same thing nowadays. The clubs that win things pay the most money. Never had a problem with Barry leaving, or Young and Milner for that matter. Barry did his time and we made a big profit.
Yes. I'll always have a lot of respect for Barry as he gave us more service than any other player in years. And you can't really blame any of the other players for moving on either. They knew in what direction we were moving in, and it wasn't upwards. I think that's the real reason so many fans are depressed about what's going on. It's the fact that its been a Managed Decline that's so gut wrenching.
-
There was an aritificial happiness under pubehead/Lerner based presumably on the assumption we had a tactical genius in the manager's seat and a guy who would bankroll us off it. The 2nd bit was obviously encouraged by Lerner and his pals with the "no budget" mantra and whispers about paying 30m for a player. A lot of the abject misery since then is the comedown from that I believe. We were promised top players, attractive football and the CL, and we got Ireland, hoofball and probably relegation.
No people were happy because we were winning a lot more games than we lost and challenging near the top. The sustainability of it all is now a matter of hindsight, but at the time people were smiling (well at least more of us were) about beating Man U or Chelsea, or thrashing the Blues, or getting to a cup final, or challenging for the top four. Pretty simple really
-
There was an aritificial happiness under pubehead/Lerner based presumably on the assumption we had a tactical genius in the manager's seat and a guy who would bankroll us off it. The 2nd bit was obviously encouraged by Lerner and his pals with the "no budget" mantra and whispers about paying 30m for a player. A lot of the abject misery since then is the comedown from that I believe. We were promised top players, attractive football and the CL, and we got Ireland, hoofball and probably relegation.
No people were happy because we were winning a lot more games than we lost and challenging near the top. The sustainability of it all is now a matter of hindsight, but at the time people were smiling (well at least more of us were) about beating Man U or Chelsea, or thrashing the Blues, or getting to a cup final, or challenging for the top four. Pretty simple really
Nah, it was more than that. As people having pointed out before, we finished higher, and got to finals under previous managers and there wasn't the same type of euphoria. It wasn't so much how we were doing but the presumption it was only going to get better.
-
Happiness from football was just seeing us win a game. There's nothing quite like that after match feeling where you've won. It's not something we've had very often this season and in good recent seasons where we've qualified for Europe, it happened regularly.
I do wonder how Man United fans enjoy football though. A lot of the time it must be the equivalent of England playing some whipping boy in a qualifying game. You don't really celebrate the goals because you're expected to beat the inferior opposition, so where's the joy? You would think they get their joy from lifting trophies but even then they expect to do so in most things.
-
I will be happy If we keep our Prem status , I know its not great but I have to get used to it.
-
It is all about expectations. I expect the Villa to be what they have always been. Top 6-7 with the odd bad season where we flirt with relegation and the odd good one where we win a cup or do unusually well. If we can play decent football to boot then so much the better.
Not that we will feel like we belong if we do look like joining the top table of course. And any more than one shit season in succession is unacceptable as its not what we do.
-
I am slightly concerned that there is an entire generation of Villa supporters who have never seen us win anything, or were too young to really remember our last trophy at Wembley.
It's shit for the younger fans; huge expense to see their team, Villa look as far away from a trophy as ever, and they live in an era when money doesn't just talk but bellows.
And that Stu is a massive problem. We need to win something soon to give them inspiration and hope for the future. So being beaten by Bradford and Millwall hurts more for that reason alone.
-
My eldest son is 10 years old. For as long as he can remember we've been shit. Because of where we live, we obviously can't get to many Villa games, but he comes with me to every SC Telstar home game and loves every minute of it. He knows they will never get promoted to the Eredivisie, instead he takes great pleasure in the things that make football so great; the minutiae of games and the sheer comedy that can be had in watching live football.
In the car on the way home on Friday night I asked him about Villa and if he was still a fan and he said "of course I am, it's in my blood and it will never change." I honestly nearly burst into tears, because my lad sums up everything that should be remembered by us as football fans. It certainly put my current Villa malaise into perspective.
-
I got a 6 and 9 year old, you only ever known us being crap, the other day i found his ipod with the united logo on.
What can i say to a 6 year old who lives in greater manchester, support a shite villa side?
Honestly i now not arsed if we go down, I just want us to level off and start winning and that involves a season in champioship so be it
-
Unfortunately, you can never really, truly walk away from it all.
It is in your blood, passed down from one generation to another, like some sort of bad chromosome, or a club foot, or diabetes.
-
manchester, support a shite villa side?
Honestly i now not arsed if we go down, I just want us to level off and start winning and that involves a season in champioship so be it
I'm arsed about it and the day when I just shrug and accept a meek relegation will be the day when my toes curl up.
I'll be fucking pig sick, angry and miserable if we go down.
-
Unfortunately, you can never really, truly walk away from it all.
It is in your blood, passed down from one generation to another, like some sort of bad chromosome, or a club foot, or diabetes.
Nobody in my immediate family liked football apart from my grandfather. So I thank him every day for my being a Villa fan, but paradoxically think it would have been better if he'd kept his offer to go to a game to himself.