Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: pauliewalnuts on January 03, 2013, 11:24:49 PM
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Fair play to Matt Jarvis.
Footballer in gay magazine: it's time to tackle the last taboo
West Ham United winger Matt Jarvis appears on cover of Attitude and says gay footballers should feel able to come out
West Ham United winger Matt Jarvis has become only the third footballer to feature on the cover of the UK's bestselling gay magazine in an effort to break one of the game's biggest remaining taboos. The footballer, who is married, follows David Beckham, who appeared on the cover of Attitude in 2002, and Freddie Ljungberg in 2006. The magazine has been published since 1994.
In an interview, the winger said it was time that a gay footballer felt comfortable enough to come out. "It's everyday life. It's not something that's going to be a shock," he said. "I'm sure there are many footballers who are gay, but when they decide to actually come out and say it, it is a different story. It's one that I'm sure they've thought about many times. But it's a hard thing for them to do."
In 1990 Justin Fashanu – the first black £1m footballer, who played for Norwich, Nottingham Forest and Hearts – suffered extended abuse after coming out. He killed himself eight years later.
The only footballer to come out since is Anton Hysen, a player in the Swedish lower leagues.
Asked about Clare Balding's recent comments that being out could help a sportsperson's performance, Jarvis said: "I'd agree with that. Because you've always got something you're worried about at the back of your mind. If you can let that go and then just concentrate on your one goal, which is whichever sport you're doing to the best of your ability, I think that would help. Definitely."
Jarvis told Attitude that he thought times had changed and an openly gay footballer would receive the support he needed. "There'd be support everywhere within the football community, whether it be players, fans or within the PFA [Professional Footballers' Association]. There would definitely be groups of people who would be supportive and help them through it," he said.
Homophobia in football remains a stubborn problem, said Alice Ashworth, policy officer at Stonewall. "Our polling has found that one in four football fans think it is an anti-gay sport, while seven in 10 fans had heard homophobic abuse on the terraces. There is still a culture in the game that means being gay is not tolerated in the same way as it is in other professions and society at large," she said. The charity works closely with the FA and the PFA following YouGov research in 2009 in which half of respondents felt key football organisations were not doing enough.
Matthew Todd, the editor of Attitude, said it was time football started tackling homophobia in the same way it addressed racism. "It's ridiculous that there are no openly gay players in professional football," he said. "There's rightly been a focus on ridding the beautiful game of racism, but there doesn't seem to be much effort to tackle homophobia. We know there are gay players – and fans who support the game religiously – so I hope this starts a discussion and is a small step in the right direction."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jan/03/football-homophobia-attitude
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Still can't see it happening anytime soon.
The reality is the player who comes out would have huge media focus on him, he'd probably have to do a million interviews for SSN, chat shows etc, the next game he plays would probably be on tv, all the opposition crowd would be on him....
Maybe come see a few retired players revealing it, bit like Justin Fashanu.
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I don't go to games very often so I guess it's easy for me to say, but surely fans could be self-policing on something like this, i.e. when some fucking dickheads inevitably start giving out tiresome and unfunny abuse they just get shouted down and told to fuck off, like they would if they were being racist?
After Fashnu I know it'll seem like a big thing but, really, it's 2013, we all know and are friends with (or at least work with) gay people now. This shouldn't really be a thing, should it?
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Still can't see it happening anytime soon.
The reality is the player who comes out would have huge media focus on him, he'd probably have to do a million interviews for SSN, chat shows etc, the next game he plays would probably be on tv, all the opposition crowd would be on him....
Maybe come see a few retired players revealing it, bit like Justin Fashanu.
I'd agree with the last bit, but then why haven't we seen that?
Surely a gay former player now in say their late 30s would have trouble staying in the closet when it's time to settle down with someone?
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With regards to players, I don't really care about their sexuality. If someone comes out, so what? Why should I give one about what they do in their bedrooms. The problem is the fans and homophobic chants, that needs to stop.
We've all done it!
It says 'invalid YouTube link', but it was the Holte End signing to Upson:
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We've all done it!
No, we haven't.
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Don't think it will happens very easily as football fans (and players/managers ) can be very very nasty to players with abuses. Football have enough problems with racism.
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We've all done it!
No, we haven't.
Well, not saying that you or I have, just that our club has done it.
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aye, its the fans. Its not about homophobia for a lot of them but exploiting a percieved weakness in the opossition and the oportunity to wind them up. Spurs fans kept that Sol Campbell thing going for years - I have no idea if he is gay but loads of people assumed he was because of it.
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We've all done it!
No, we haven't.
Well, not saying that you or I have, just that our club has done it.
Fair enough then. But such a scenario isn't one where I'd be happy to be tarred with that brush, Villa fan or not. In fact, I'd rather not bother with Villa at all if it meant being a c*** on an industrial scale like that with 'fellow' fans.
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With regards to players, I don't really care about their sexuality. If someone comes out, so what? Why should I give one about what they do in their bedrooms. The problem is the fans and homophobic chants, that needs to stop.
We've all done it!
It says 'invalid YouTube link', but it was the Holte End signing to Upson:
To the tune of a Village People song popularised by the Pet Shop Boys.
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I don't go to games very often so I guess it's easy for me to say, but surely fans could be self-policing on something like this, i.e. when some fucking dickheads inevitably start giving out tiresome and unfunny abuse they just get shouted down and told to fuck off, like they would if they were being racist?
After Fashnu I know it'll seem like a big thing but, really, it's 2013, we all know and are friends with (or at least work with) gay people now. This shouldn't really be a thing, should it?
aye, its the fans. Its not about homophobia for a lot of them but exploiting a percieved weakness in the opossition and the oportunity to wind them up. Spurs fans kept that Sol Campbell thing going for years - I have no idea if he is gay but loads of people assumed he was because of it.
There was a story not too long ago about Campbell and Craig David snogging in a club in London.
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Remember Robbie Fowler taunting Graeme Le Saux?
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I remember when we played West Ham and Upson got some terrible homophobic stuff chanted at him,it was pretty loud,and this was only a few years ago.
Going to Luton matches in the 80s as a kid and every week there were chants about Elton John,and it was accepted back then,so I think things have improved,but there's a long way to go still,and things won't change until a PL player comes out.
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Sol Campbell is married and has a child, which I realise doesn't preclude him from being gay, though I don't believe he is.
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We've all done it!
No, we haven't.
Well, not saying that you or I have, just that our club has done it.
Fair enough then. But such a scenario isn't one where I'd be happy to be tarred with that brush, Villa fan or not. In fact, I'd rather not bother with Villa at all if it meant being a c*** on an industrial scale like that with 'fellow' fans.
I did it. I remember it clearly but it didnt seem like a big deal. Im not homophobic, in fact i have gay relatives and friends so im not even shielded from it. There in though you have the conundrum. I imagine that to most it just isnt seen to be as bad as racism. my attitude has changed and I wouldnt join in now but the difference between homophobic and racist chanting and its acceptance is probably blurred by the fact that pulling out of challenges and/or rolling around on the floor is often met with homophobic insults being hurled ie "get up you f'ing puff!"
Its unfortunate but im not sure if the majority of people would deem this worthy of shopping someone to the stewards. Replace the word puff with the 'n' word and you have another matter completely
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
I bet there are some gay footballers though. Racism is abhorrent but it would pale into insignificance compared to the stick the first outed footballer would endure from the world of football. The Mathew Upson chants from Villa fans is a stain on the club. One of the most embarrassing things our fans have ever done. The saddest part of it is that the ignorant morons didn't even think it it was offensive.
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
I bet there are some gay footballers though. Racism is abhorrent but it would pale into insignificance compared to the stick the first outed footballer would endure from the world of football. The Mathew Upson chants from Villa fans is a stain on the club. One of the most embarrassing things our fans have ever done. The saddest part of it is that the ignorant morons didn't even think it it was offensive.
I agree , I think there will be some out there but they would rather probably it not come out in the open, the welsh rugby player who came out took a lot of abuse but gained so much respect too.
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
The Mathew Upson chants from Villa fans is a stain on the club.
As childish and un-warranted as it was, i would'nt go that far. I'd forgotten all about it until it was brought up on this thread.
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
The Mathew Upson chants from Villa fans is a stain on the club.
As childish and un-warranted as it was, i would'nt go that far. I'd forgotten all about it until it was brought up on this thread.
It's episodes like that which prevent gay players from coming out or even from feeling comfortable in a football environment. So yes, I think it's as important as I made out. It's easy for heterosexual people to forget about that incident. A damn sight tougher for a gay person though.
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
There was something on the radio, More or Less I suspect, that worked out the probability of there not being a gay footballer. It was incredibly unlikely. I can't remember the figures but the only reasonable conclusion after listening to the numbers was there were quite a few current professional footballers who were firmly in the closet.
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
The Mathew Upson chants from Villa fans is a stain on the club.
As childish and un-warranted as it was, i would'nt go that far. I'd forgotten all about it until it was brought up on this thread.
Would you have forgotten all about it had it had been racist abuse?
They're both disgraceful and well done to Matt Jarvis for putting his head above the parapet, even in a small way such as this.
Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
I've also worked with hundreds of people over the last ten years and could quite comfortably name thirty or forty openly gay people that I've known in that time.
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
The Mathew Upson chants from Villa fans is a stain on the club.
As childish and un-warranted as it was, i would'nt go that far. I'd forgotten all about it until it was brought up on this thread.
If they thought that was bad they wernt at the Wimbledon FA Cup match not long after Fash had come out [From memory he wasnt even playing for them but I think his brother was]
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
The Mathew Upson chants from Villa fans is a stain on the club.
As childish and un-warranted as it was, i would'nt go that far. I'd forgotten all about it until it was brought up on this thread.
If they thought that was bad they wernt at the Wimbledon FA Cup match not long after Fash had come out [From memory he wasnt even playing for them but I think his brother was]
Justin you mean? I think
cloughie referred to him in an extremely disparaging way too, the times have changed greatly since then though.
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
The Mathew Upson chants from Villa fans is a stain on the club.
As childish and un-warranted as it was, i would'nt go that far. I'd forgotten all about it until it was brought up on this thread.
Would you have forgotten all about it had it had been racist abuse?
They're both disgraceful and well done to Matt Jarvis for putting his head above the parapet, even in a small way such as this.
Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
I've also worked with hundreds of people over the last ten years and could quite comfortably name thirty or forty openly gay people that I've known in that time.
Yes, but you *do* live down south.
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
The Mathew Upson chants from Villa fans is a stain on the club.
As childish and un-warranted as it was, i would'nt go that far. I'd forgotten all about it until it was brought up on this thread.
If they thought that was bad they wernt at the Wimbledon FA Cup match not long after Fash had come out [From memory he wasnt even playing for them but I think his brother was]
John Fashanu disowned his own brother when he came out as being gay. His brother later killed himself. I hope John Fashanu is ashamed of himself (and I'm sure he is).
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
The Mathew Upson chants from Villa fans is a stain on the club.
As childish and un-warranted as it was, i would'nt go that far. I'd forgotten all about it until it was brought up on this thread.
Would you have forgotten all about it had it had been racist abuse?
They're both disgraceful and well done to Matt Jarvis for putting his head above the parapet.
Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
I've also worked with hundreds of people over the last ten years and could quite comfortably name thirty or forty openly gay people that I've known in that time.
Yes, but I suppose thats one of the perks of being Elton John's fluffer.
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Justin Fashanu killed himslef after allegations of sexual assault were made against him in the US, not because of homophobic comments made on the terraces, sick that they are.
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Fair point - I expect if someone were daft enough to come as as 'one of those queer folk' on your rock then they'd have the wicker man built and ablaze before you could blink!
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
I've also worked with hundreds of people over the last ten years and could quite comfortably name thirty or forty openly gay people that I've known in that time.
Me too.
In fact, I've worked in a company, admittedly a small one, a dozen or so staff, where half the staff were gay.
I think the key word is "openly". If you've no reason to know about someone's sexuality, then why would you know it?
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It would certainly need a very strong individual to decide to come out, and it should most definitely their own decision, not a case of someone being outed.
Homophobia really is one of the most fucking idiotic things imaginable. As some wag put it, its essentially someone's fear that gay men will treat you the way you treat women
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Justin Fashanu killed himslef after allegations of sexual assault were made against him in the US, not because of homophobic comments made on the terraces, sick that they are.
I never said that. Just that his brother disowned him. Fashanu liked to preach about the horrors of racism back in the day while his own prejudices against his gay brother were very much alive. Double standards indeed.
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
I've also worked with hundreds of people over the last ten years and could quite comfortably name thirty or forty openly gay people that I've known in that time.
Me too.
In fact, I've worked in a company, admittedly a small one, a dozen or so staff, where half the staff were gay.
I think the key word is "openly". If you've no reason to know about someone's sexuality, then why would you know it?
If most of the people were in heterosexual relationships, then the chances are that they're probably not gay.
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Justin Fashanu killed himslef after allegations of sexual assault were made against him in the US, not because of homophobic comments made on the terraces, sick that they are.
I never said that. Just that his brother disowned him. Fashanu liked to preach about the horrors of racism back in the day while his own prejudices against his gay brother were very much alive. Double standards indeed.
My memory is hazy but I don't think he came out of his daughter's recent documentary on the subject too well either.
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About 1.5% of the population consider them selves gay or lesbian.
you could assume that that would mean that about 1.5% of the football players are gay, however only 1% of men consider themselves gay so that reduces the potential gay footballers to 1%.
Now we can probably assume that a portion of gay people may not be drawn into football and then reduce that again by the number who actually make it.
So the numbers of actual players who are playing that may be gay is more than likely very very small
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Justin Fashanu killed himslef after allegations of sexual assault were made against him in the US, not because of homophobic comments made on the terraces, sick that they are.
I never said that. Just that his brother disowned him. Fashanu liked to preach about the horrors of racism back in the day while his own prejudices against his gay brother were very much alive. Double standards indeed.
My memory is hazy but I don't think he came out of his daughter's recent documentary on the subject too well either.
His basic premise was "he wasn't really gay, he was just attention-seeking".
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John Fashanu lives in Nigeria now? a country with just about the worst record when it comes to anti-gay legislation.
He should stay over there. Am I being racist, telling a black homophobe to go back to where he didn't come from?
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Fair point - I expect if someone were daft enough to come as as 'one of those queer folk' on your rock then they'd have the wicker man built and ablaze before you could blink!
Indeed. It was still illegal as recently as 1992, although I think that was just a case of nobody bothering to update the law rather than actually persecuting homosexuals.
I think that some industries probably just naturally attract more gay people than others. I'd imagine that working in the creative arts would find more people being tolerant than on a building site for example. Maybe gay people shun a career in football for similar reasons?
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About 1.5% of the population consider them selves gay or lesbian.
you could assume that that would mean that about 1.5% of the football players are gay, however only 1% of men consider themselves gay so that reduces the potential gay footballers to 1%.
Now we can probably assume that a portion of gay people may not be drawn into football and then reduce that again by the number who actually make it.
So the numbers of actual players who are playing that may be gay is more than likely very very small
HA! How on earth can you come up with a statistic like that? Does this include all nations where being homosexual is considered a crime because I'm guessing they would not come forward freely to state they are gay. Also, I think this country, on the whole, is not set-up for homosexuals to just be themselves. I can imagine it being very difficult. Look at the stupid and ridiculous chanting that goes on when a footballer is even alleged to be homosexual!
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Justin Fashanu killed himslef after allegations of sexual assault were made against him in the US, not because of homophobic comments made on the terraces, sick that they are.
I never said that. Just that his brother disowned him. Fashanu liked to preach about the horrors of racism back in the day while his own prejudices against his gay brother were very much alive. Double standards indeed.
My memory is hazy but I don't think he came out of his daughter's recent documentary on the subject too well either.
His basic premise was "he wasn't really gay, he was just attention-seeking".
Didn't Justin Fashanu go out with Julie Goodyear for a while? Talk about a messed up life.
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Justin Fashanu killed himslef after allegations of sexual assault were made against him in the US, not because of homophobic comments made on the terraces, sick that they are.
I never said that. Just that his brother disowned him. Fashanu liked to preach about the horrors of racism back in the day while his own prejudices against his gay brother were very much alive. Double standards indeed.
My memory is hazy but I don't think he came out of his daughter's recent documentary on the subject too well either.
His basic premise was "he wasn't really gay, he was just attention-seeking".
Didn't Justin Fashanu go out with Julie Goodyear for a while? Talk about a messed up life.
Her of the catchphrase- Get it , got it , good!
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Jimmy Anderson did this years ago, and let's face it the MCC are about the biggest bunch of intractable old bastards the world has ever seen, saving the Tories. Fair play to Jarvis, to all the gorillas in the stands that think it's a problem: "Grow up or fuck off".
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Are we inlcuding women footballers in these stats. Surely they'd bump up the straight/gay ratio?
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We've all done it!
No, we haven't.
Agreed. I, and mates, take no part in any kind of chanting with an anti-homosexual sentiment to it.
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About 1.5% of the population consider them selves gay or lesbian.
you could assume that that would mean that about 1.5% of the football players are gay, however only 1% of men consider themselves gay so that reduces the potential gay footballers to 1%.
Now we can probably assume that a portion of gay people may not be drawn into football and then reduce that again by the number who actually make it.
So the numbers of actual players who are playing that may be gay is more than likely very very small
HA! How on earth can you come up with a statistic like that? Does this include all nations where being homosexual is considered a crime because I'm guessing they would not come forward freely to state they are gay. Also, I think this country, on the whole, is not set-up for homosexuals to just be themselves. I can imagine it being very difficult. Look at the stupid and ridiculous chanting that goes on when a footballer is even alleged to be homosexual!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/sep/23/gay-britain-ons
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I can't see a player 'coming out' whilst the likes of much respected...cough...senior professional Rio Ferdinand have been known to use the term 'gay' as an insult, the stick Graham Le Saux got simply for reading the Guardian and being reasonably well educated served as a warning.
To be honest I wouldn't know how many gay people i've worked with over the years as I tend to never ask who they prefer sleeping with or what religion they are, I know what football team they support though if any. I work in the Theatre industry though which is without a shadow of a doubt 100% heterosexual.
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Two Russian players have come out or may have been outed, I fear those two will have a tough time ahead in a country with some very backwards attitudes towards minorities.
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I can't see a player 'coming out' whilst the likes of much respected...cough...senior professional Rio Ferdinand have been known to use the term 'gay' as an insult, the stick Graham Le Saux got simply for reading the Guardian and being reasonably well educated served as a warning.
To be honest I wouldn't know how many gay people i've worked with over the years as I tend to never ask who they prefer sleeping with or what religion they are, I know what football team they support though if any. I work in the Theatre industry though which is without a shadow of a doubt 100% heterosexual.
I think anybody reading The Guardian deserves all the stick they get, frankly.
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About 1.5% of the population consider them selves gay or lesbian.
you could assume that that would mean that about 1.5% of the football players are gay, however only 1% of men consider themselves gay so that reduces the potential gay footballers to 1%.
Now we can probably assume that a portion of gay people may not be drawn into football and then reduce that again by the number who actually make it.
So the numbers of actual players who are playing that may be gay is more than likely very very small
Most Gays that I have known hate football, so I think this reduces the odds a bit.
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About 1.5% of the population consider them selves gay or lesbian.
you could assume that that would mean that about 1.5% of the football players are gay, however only 1% of men consider themselves gay so that reduces the potential gay footballers to 1%.
Now we can probably assume that a portion of gay people may not be drawn into football and then reduce that again by the number who actually make it.
So the numbers of actual players who are playing that may be gay is more than likely very very small
HA! How on earth can you come up with a statistic like that? Does this include all nations where being homosexual is considered a crime because I'm guessing they would not come forward freely to state they are gay. Also, I think this country, on the whole, is not set-up for homosexuals to just be themselves. I can imagine it being very difficult. Look at the stupid and ridiculous chanting that goes on when a footballer is even alleged to be homosexual!
What's with the 'Ha!' It's not my statistic it's from the ONS survey
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About 1.5% of the population consider them selves gay or lesbian.
you could assume that that would mean that about 1.5% of the football players are gay, however only 1% of men consider themselves gay so that reduces the potential gay footballers to 1%.
Now we can probably assume that a portion of gay people may not be drawn into football and then reduce that again by the number who actually make it.
So the numbers of actual players who are playing that may be gay is more than likely very very small
Most Gays that I have known hate football, so I think this reduces the odds a bit.
i've got a gay brother in law (long story) he was very clever and used to go around the trivial pursuit board with ease in the 80's, untill he landed on sport, he was shit on sport, only thing i could beat him on
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About 1.5% of the population consider them selves gay or lesbian.
you could assume that that would mean that about 1.5% of the football players are gay, however only 1% of men consider themselves gay so that reduces the potential gay footballers to 1%.
Now we can probably assume that a portion of gay people may not be drawn into football and then reduce that again by the number who actually make it.
So the numbers of actual players who are playing that may be gay is more than likely very very small
Most Gays that I have known hate football, so I think this reduces the odds a bit.
i've got a gay brother in law (long story) he was very clever and used to go around the trivial pursuit board with ease in the 80's, untill he landed on sport, he was shit on sport, only thing i could beat him on
I bet he was ace at the show business category though.
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About 1.5% of the population consider them selves gay or lesbian.
you could assume that that would mean that about 1.5% of the football players are gay, however only 1% of men consider themselves gay so that reduces the potential gay footballers to 1%.
Now we can probably assume that a portion of gay people may not be drawn into football and then reduce that again by the number who actually make it.
So the numbers of actual players who are playing that may be gay is more than likely very very small
Most Gays that I have known hate football, so I think this reduces the odds a bit.
i've got a gay brother in law (long story) he was very clever and used to go around the trivial pursuit board with ease in the 80's, untill he landed on sport, he was shit on sport, only thing i could beat him on
I bet he was ace at the show business category though.
he was well into the new romantics music scene,and would wear all the make up and flouncy clothes,
then when it went out of fashion he just kept on wearing it, thats when we started to suspect
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Justin Fashanu killed himslef after allegations of sexual assault were made against him in the US, not because of homophobic comments made on the terraces, sick that they are.
I never said that. Just that his brother disowned him. Fashanu liked to preach about the horrors of racism back in the day while his own prejudices against his gay brother were very much alive. Double standards indeed.
I do remember some time after the suicide a contrite John F. taking part in a related documentary and saying something along the lines of how ashamed he was of his reaction to Justin's coming out. How sincere his contrition was I've no idea
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About 1.5% of the population consider them selves gay or lesbian.
you could assume that that would mean that about 1.5% of the football players are gay, however only 1% of men consider themselves gay so that reduces the potential gay footballers to 1%.
Now we can probably assume that a portion of gay people may not be drawn into football and then reduce that again by the number who actually make it.
So the numbers of actual players who are playing that may be gay is more than likely very very small
HA! How on earth can you come up with a statistic like that? Does this include all nations where being homosexual is considered a crime because I'm guessing they would not come forward freely to state they are gay. Also, I think this country, on the whole, is not set-up for homosexuals to just be themselves. I can imagine it being very difficult. Look at the stupid and ridiculous chanting that goes on when a footballer is even alleged to be homosexual!
What's with the 'Ha!' It's not my statistic it's from the ONS survey
That's about five players who are in a Premiership squad at the moment (using 25 players in a squad as a rough estimation, 20 teams, 1% gay footballers) who are gay.
I definitely heard a More or Less where they looked into the ONS Survey and felt that that it was probably an underestimate. Though it was definitely nowhere near McKinsey's 10% (he apparently asked men who had just come out of public toilets amongst many). It showed quite nicely the problems of attaining a fair sample and the problems of definition (what does gay mean;someone who is in a gay relationship now, someone who has dabbled, someone who has an attraction to another man?).
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Someone who is good with colours
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Well we probably have the lot then, as they are no finer colours then claret and blue
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I can see it happening in the near future, a current player near the end of their career coming out. The attention, the money, the TV career, being on the front of all the magzines. It will be too much of an incentive to ignore.
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I can see it happening in the near future, a current player near the end of their career coming out. The attention, the money, the TV career, being on the front of all the magzines. It will be too much of an incentive to ignore.
Very cynical, but very true.
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Good points made by Le Saux:
Le Saux recounted the incident in his autobiography: “I didn’t go out of my way to stand up for gay rights, but my situation dictated that I did. The way I see it, there are people in the gay community that are going to be football fans and that means there are young people who might be confused about their sexuality. They need support, so when Robbie Fowler attempts to humiliate me in public, all the kids in that position feel pretty s***ty about themselves.
“More than anything in my career, that offended me. What he did was wrong and he has never admitted that. He still talks as if it was a bit of a laugh. I just think there should be someone in his life who says, ‘Robbie, you were out of order’.”
http://www.onthisfootballday.com/football-history/february-27-robbie-taunts-le-saux.php
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Good points made by Le Saux:
Le Saux recounted the incident in his autobiography: “I didn’t go out of my way to stand up for gay rights, but my situation dictated that I did. The way I see it, there are people in the gay community that are going to be football fans and that means there are young people who might be confused about their sexuality. They need support, so when Robbie Fowler attempts to humiliate me in public, all the kids in that position feel pretty s***ty about themselves.
“More than anything in my career, that offended me. What he did was wrong and he has never admitted that. He still talks as if it was a bit of a laugh. I just think there should be someone in his life who says, ‘Robbie, you were out of order’.”
http://www.onthisfootballday.com/football-history/february-27-robbie-taunts-le-saux.php
That is something I never thought I would hear anyone say about Le Saux, but you're right.
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About 1.5% of the population consider them selves gay or lesbian.
you could assume that that would mean that about 1.5% of the football players are gay, however only 1% of men consider themselves gay so that reduces the potential gay footballers to 1%.
Now we can probably assume that a portion of gay people may not be drawn into football and then reduce that again by the number who actually make it.
So the numbers of actual players who are playing that may be gay is more than likely very very small
HA! How on earth can you come up with a statistic like that? Does this include all nations where being homosexual is considered a crime because I'm guessing they would not come forward freely to state they are gay. Also, I think this country, on the whole, is not set-up for homosexuals to just be themselves. I can imagine it being very difficult. Look at the stupid and ridiculous chanting that goes on when a footballer is even alleged to be homosexual!
What's with the 'Ha!' It's not my statistic it's from the ONS survey
Sorry, thought you meant the population of the world. Also, I hadn't seen that link to the Guardian website.
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We are living through a period of backlash against the wrongs perpetrated by previous generations. It is not simply the correction of injustices to homosexuals, there are corrections of attitudes right across society but what we have to do to be a truly civilized society is to make the correction of injustices universal and to make them automatic and unchallenged.
The correction of attitudes towards gay people is well under way, as is the correction of attitudes to cruelty to animals and violence by men against women. Other equally necessary and overdue changes lag behind like the treatment of the old and the exploitation of the vulnerable with pay day loans at stratospheric levels of interest a typical example.
I will give you an example. Last week I was in a petrol filling station in the fens and stood in a queue behind two or three ladies doing general shopping. The lady in front of me was very old and her dress was in great disarray. As many old people do she smelled strongly of piss because she was obviously incontinent. A shop assistant was sent from behind the counter to spray the lady with deodorizing spray. The little old lady was so far out of it she just smiled. Can you imagine the uproar there would have been if a gay person had been singled out for personal humiliation like that? The 2013 justification is that she was "old and smelly" Just like the Saturday night gay bashing which went on in Birmingham city centre when I was a youth was excused because the victims were "queer".
The point I am making is that it is not just about football players being gay, it is about the right of each and every one of us to be treated with respect.
What I fear is what this country is very good at, seeing the wood but not the trees. Go out with a collection box for breast cancer and the odds are you will be well rewarded. Change the label on your collecting tin to brain tumour and you will do less well. I speak from personal experience raising money for both.
What am I driving at? The danger is that we get football homophobia free but leave vast swathes of society - the forces, the police, public schools, the church, the masons, the guilds as bad as ever. We polish up our social halos because we are cool about gay football players and that allows all the rest to carry on uncorrected.
We cherry pick what we are going to be outraged by in order to feel the maximum amount of self approval for the minimum amount of effort and sacrifice.
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Very good post Brian.
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So, which of our players do you think is an incontinent old lady? :-)
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
Just be more yourself Riss - and I'm sure they'll come on to you.
And if you were to butter that hand - and close it's fingers into a fist - I know you would be a hit.
Best Regards.
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I think we've only had one openly gay poster on this forum and all this is pretty incognoto, maybe football, either playing or watching isn't that attractive for 'them'?.
PS edit. A very thought provoking post Brian.
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We cherry pick what we are going to be outraged by in order to feel the maximum amount of self approval for the minimum amount of effort and sacrifice.
A lot of truth in that.
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We cherry pick what we are going to be outraged by in order to feel the maximum amount of self approval for the minimum amount of effort and sacrifice.
Very good points Brian, especially IMO, the one I've quoted. The current news issue that angers me the most is the Indian rape/murder victim, which probably meets the self approval criteria.
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We cherry pick what we are going to be outraged by in order to feel the maximum amount of self approval for the minimum amount of effort and sacrifice.
Very good points Brian, especially IMO, the one I've quoted. The current news issue that angers me the most is the Indian rape/murder victim, which probably meets the self approval criteria.
Yep totally agree.
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
Just be more yourself Riss - and I'm sure they'll come on to you.
And if you were to butter that hand - and close it's fingers into a fist - I know you would be a hit.
Best Regards.
edit: not worth it, I'll leave it to the decent posters of H&V to let you know what they think of you.
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My advancing years are affecting my memory as to whether I've posted this before, so possibly not for the first time I'll remind those who don't know that there's a chance you'll leave the world the same way you entered it. No hair, no teeth and incontinent.
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Surely the little window on the world in our living rooms tells us what to get outraged by?
Nobody could fail to be moved by the story from Delhi, but part of that is because it's on every news bulletin.
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
Just be more yourself Riss - and I'm sure they'll come on to you.
And if you were to butter that hand - and close it's fingers into a fist - I know you would be a hit.
Best Regards.
In the context of the article and discussion that's going on here this comment is unbelievable.
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
Just be more yourself Riss - and I'm sure they'll come on to you.
And if you were to butter that hand - and close it's fingers into a fist - I know you would be a hit.
Best Regards.
In the context of the article and discussion that's going on here this comment is unbelievable.
It's pretty horrendous in general.
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
Just be more yourself Riss - and I'm sure they'll come on to you.
And if you were to butter that hand - and close it's fingers into a fist - I know you would be a hit.
Best Regards.
In the context of the article and discussion that's going on here this comment is unbelievable.
Yep, disgusting. Homophobia is alive and well after reading that.
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
Just be more yourself Riss - and I'm sure they'll come on to you.
And if you were to butter that hand - and close it's fingers into a fist - I know you would be a hit.
Best Regards.
that is sick and offensive, you should apologise or go
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Just be more yourself Riss - and I'm sure they'll come on to you.
And if you were to butter that hand - and close it's fingers into a fist - I know you would be a hit.
Best Regards.
Precisely the "banter" that I'm sure any gay players would rather avoid. Well done, you've explained the lack of openly gay footballers with one post.
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Perhaps there just genuinely aren't and haven't been that many gay footballers? I've worked with hundreds of people over the years, and the number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand.
Just be more yourself Riss - and I'm sure they'll come on to you.
And if you were to butter that hand - and close it's fingers into a fist - I know you would be a hit.
Best Regards.
This is not appropriate at all as others have pointed out, and there should be an apology to the person it is aimed at and for the offence it has caused to people reading. I don't care how it was meant to come across, it is not pleasant.
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Out of interest has anyone on here laughed at a gay joke? Does this mean you are therefore a homophobe? I don't find child molesting a humorous subject but like many have chuckled at a fair few Jimmy Savile jokes. In my opinion for taboo subjects to become accepted people need to be less sensitive. Brighton fans have "Does your boyfriend know you're here?" sang to to them which I think can be termed as banter. Calling someone a 'dirty queer' etc isn't. It's all about context, hence the 'Upson takes it up the arse' was greeted with plenty of laughter by lots of us on the Holte that day. As for context reading back through this thread, sonlyme has took a kicking for making a joke out of what Rissbert wrote. Yet Rissbert himself has suggested that a poster's gay brother in law who was shit at the sport section on Trivial Pursuit would have been brilliant on the Showbusiness subject. Is this not offensive strereotyping?
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Out of interest has anyone on here laughed at a gay joke? Does this mean you are therefore a homophobe? I don't find child molesting a humorous subject but like many have chuckled at a fair few Jimmy Savile jokes. In my opinion for taboo subjects to become accepted people need to be less sensitive. Brighton fans have "Does your boyfriend know you're here?" sang to to them which I think can be termed as banter. Calling someone a 'dirty queer' etc isn't. It's all about context, hence the 'Upson takes it up the arse' was greeted with plenty of laughter by lots of us on the Holte that day. As for context reading back through this thread, sonlyme has took a kicking for making a joke out of what Rissbert wrote. Yet Rissbert himself has suggested that a poster's gay brother in law who was shit at the sport section on Trivial Pursuit would have been brilliant on the Showbusiness subject. Is this not offensive strereotyping?
There's some food for thought. I suppose it does depend on context, but also on everyone's "cut-off point" where they feel that something crosses the line. I thought Sonlyme's post was an ignorant piece of playground nastiness and the fact that several posters felt it necessary to take him to task, makes me think that his comment was way over. I think "Upson takes it up the arse" is just as offensive, however.
Maybe it's because it's clearly meant as an insult, whereas "Does your boyfriend know you're here?", at least displays some slight wit, even if it was adapted from the Spurs fans/Rabbi chants - which were more relevant because they referred to the rules about attending events on Shabbat, I believe. Rissbert's remark was a cliché, but a harmless one in comparison... Arrrgh! Now I don't know what to think!
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German James, good morning.
For the record I found neither remark offensive. Anyhow....
I work in a large American owned Birmingham based Aerospace business and we have regular courses in pretty much everything and recently we had diversity training. There were fifteen of us in a room and we had to select different coloured jelly beans depending on our answers. At the end i was the only person in the room who had a bag full of the same coloured beans and was told by the course leader that i was therefore not diverse. This is because of the following:
My gaffer is male
My next door neighbours are white
I am married to a woman.
I have no gay friends, well at least to my knowledge anyway.
My doctor is a white man.
I took this as an insult as I pointed out none of the above were my doing. My doctor was assigned to me by the practice i'd always used. My neighbours moved in after me. I didn't appoint my gaffer. My friends sexual orientation is their own business and as i'm heterosexual obviously my partner is a woman.
On the same course we were told that we need to use an universal language as some foreigners would find some aspects of English difficult to understand. The course leader then casually said,
"Yes and that's just the Americans", which prompted some light laughter.
At this point I asked why he'd said American and not Chinese or Indian? That was met by him blushing and mumbling "Well that's well erm different".
Is it acceptable to be racist/xenephobic to some nations but god help you if you make a joke about others?
For me i'm very much of the opinion of each to their own and not pushing your beliefs onto others.
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German James, good morning.
For the record I found neither remark offensive. Anyhow....
I work in a large American owned Birmingham based Aerospace business and we have regular courses in pretty much everything and recently we had diversity training. There were fifteen of us in a room and we had to select different coloured jelly beans depending on our answers. At the end i was the only person in the room who had a bag full of the same coloured beans and was told by the course leader that i was therefore not diverse. This is because of the following:
My gaffer is male
My next door neighbours are white
I am married to a woman.
I have no gay friends, well at least to my knowledge anyway.
My doctor is a white man.
I took this as an insult as I pointed out none of the above were my doing. My doctor was assigned to me by the practice i'd always used. My neighbours moved in after me. I didn't appoint my gaffer. My friends sexual orientation is their own business and as i'm heterosexual obviously my partner is a woman.
On the same course we were told that we need to use an universal language as some foreigners would find some aspects of English difficult to understand. The course leader then casually said,
"Yes and that's just the Americans", which prompted some light laughter.
At this point I asked why he'd said American and not Chinese or Indian? That was met by him blushing and mumbling "Well that's well erm different".
Is it acceptable to be racist/xenephobic to some nations but god help you if you make a joke about others?
For me i'm very much of the opinion of each to their own and not pushing your beliefs onto others.
Last line sums up my feelings. Each to their own. Gay/ Straight or whatever. Who gives a damn. We are all human after all, and we all live on the same planet. Got no time for racism or homaphobia. In this day and age surely happiness is the main thing we should be looking for. Just my point of view.
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German James, good morning.
For the record I found neither remark offensive. Anyhow....
I work in a large American owned Birmingham based Aerospace business and we have regular courses in pretty much everything and recently we had diversity training. There were fifteen of us in a room and we had to select different coloured jelly beans depending on our answers. At the end i was the only person in the room who had a bag full of the same coloured beans and was told by the course leader that i was therefore not diverse. This is because of the following:
My gaffer is male
My next door neighbours are white
I am married to a woman.
I have no gay friends, well at least to my knowledge anyway.
My doctor is a white man.
I took this as an insult as I pointed out none of the above were my doing. My doctor was assigned to me by the practice i'd always used. My neighbours moved in after me. I didn't appoint my gaffer. My friends sexual orientation is their own business and as i'm heterosexual obviously my partner is a woman.
On the same course we were told that we need to use an universal language as some foreigners would find some aspects of English difficult to understand. The course leader then casually said,
"Yes and that's just the Americans", which prompted some light laughter.
At this point I asked why he'd said American and not Chinese or Indian? That was met by him blushing and mumbling "Well that's well erm different".
Is it acceptable to be racist/xenephobic to some nations but god help you if you make a joke about others?
For me i'm very much of the opinion of each to their own and not pushing your beliefs onto others.
Good morning! I couldn't agree more! People are becoming far too precious and quick to take offense on others' behalf. So much of this is about perception: That young Leeds fan for example, El Hadj Diouf wasn't insulted by a ten year old boy blacking up to look like him. He took it in the spirit it was meant. It's ridiculous to accuse that boy, or his family of racism. Sometimes though, I think you have to make a stand and making remarks which suggest that gays are predatory sex-cases whom you're guaranteed to attract by simply offering to fist them is not in order, and it's crap like this, that gay footballers could well be afraid of hearing, if they came out.
My commiserations at having to put up with that sort of waffle at work. What a pile of shite! Are you meant to move to somewhere with an African GP, to become a better person? This sort of pious clap-trap contributes to the very intolerance it's supposed to be eradicating.
There's a definite feeling that some countries/people are taboo, when it comes to jokes and some are fair game. Here in Germany, businesses quite openly claim to have "Scottish prices" when they've got something on offer. This is plainly racist, and I've been known to go in and ask them if they would ever considered using the phrase "Jewish prices", as "the Jews are good with money too, aren't they?". The shock on their faces is worth getting asked to leave for - but there is surely no difference, is there?
*Hello Dan! Agree with you too!
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Sonlyme is the only one who can say what he honestly meant by his comment but I read it as a bit of wordplay on the following part,
"number of openly gay people I've known in that time you could count on the fingers of one hand."
Maybe he was going for gay hatred, but that's not the way I read it. Back again to context.....
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It was meant to be offensive, and it was.
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It was meant to be offensive, and it was.
In your opinion.
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German James, good morning.
For the record I found neither remark offensive. Anyhow....
I work in a large American owned Birmingham based Aerospace business and we have regular courses in pretty much everything and recently we had diversity training. There were fifteen of us in a room and we had to select different coloured jelly beans depending on our answers. At the end i was the only person in the room who had a bag full of the same coloured beans and was told by the course leader that i was therefore not diverse. This is because of the following:
My gaffer is male
My next door neighbours are white
I am married to a woman.
I have no gay friends, well at least to my knowledge anyway.
My doctor is a white man.
I took this as an insult as I pointed out none of the above were my doing. My doctor was assigned to me by the practice i'd always used. My neighbours moved in after me. I didn't appoint my gaffer. My friends sexual orientation is their own business and as i'm heterosexual obviously my partner is a woman.
On the same course we were told that we need to use an universal language as some foreigners would find some aspects of English difficult to understand. The course leader then casually said,
"Yes and that's just the Americans", which prompted some light laughter.
At this point I asked why he'd said American and not Chinese or Indian? That was met by him blushing and mumbling "Well that's well erm different".
Is it acceptable to be racist/xenephobic to some nations but god help you if you make a joke about others?
For me i'm very much of the opinion of each to their own and not pushing your beliefs onto others.
Heh, thats very true about it being more acceptable to say offensive stuff about some nations/races/orientations, likewise who's saying it.. About 6 years ago i worked for a company which had a mainly Indian/Pakistani workforce and the stuff they used to say about each other, its a wonder i didn't have a dislocated jaw it was hitting the floor so often. It was like working with Bernard Manning's jokewriters - racism, homophobia, bigotry, weird stuff about Hitler being from India. As the token white face i sort of adopted a switzerland attitude of neutrality and let them get on with it, although both sides did agree they didn't like the jewish guy.
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It was meant to be offensive, and it was.
In your opinion.
So you can be as offensive as you like as long as you meant it as a joke?
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It was meant to be offensive, and it was.
In your opinion.
So you can be as offensive as you like as long as you meant it as a joke?
See this is exactly what i'm talking about. In your opinion you took it that he was saying it as an offensive remark. In my opinion he was making a joke via wordplay.
Both are opinions
You however, said "It was meant to be offensive, and it was." Which by my reckoning is stating a fact and that is wrong.
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It was meant to be offensive, and it was.
In your opinion.
So you can be as offensive as you like as long as you meant it as a joke?
See this is exactly what i'm talking about. In your opinion you took it that he was saying it as an offensive remark. In my opinion he was making a joke via wordplay.
Both are opinions
You however, said "It was meant to be offensive, and it was." Which by my reckoning is stating a fact and that is wrong.
That sounds like a cop out so you can say what you like however offensive just as long as you claim you were only joking.
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I don't think there's any doubt Sonlyme meant to be as offensive as possible. In any case, several people were offended, so whatever his intentions, he caused offence.
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It will be a great day when stories/ threads like this are no longer needed because gay people will be as relevant/irrelevant as hetrosexual people. At the end of the day, and at least the gay people I know just want to get one with their lives and not be known for their sexuality. Because it doesn't matter at all, does it?
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It will be a great day when stories/ threads like this are no longer needed because gay people will be as relevant/irrelevant as hetrosexual people. At the end of the day, and at least the gay people I know just want to get one with their lives and not be known for their sexuality. Because it doesn't matter at all, does it?
It shouldn't, but it does for some narrow-minded idiots. Like the pope.
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It will be a great day when stories/ threads like this are no longer needed because gay people will be as relevant/irrelevant as hetrosexual people. At the end of the day, and at least the gay people I know just want to get one with their lives and not be known for their sexuality. Because it doesn't matter at all, does it?
It shouldn't, but it does for some narrow-minded idiots. Like the pope.
It's not just the pope though is it. Lots of people question other people's sexuality, and it's usually via an insult. Until casual insults and the usual finger pointing and mocking ends then gay people will not be treated with the same respect that every other person is.
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That's Religion for you, a control mechanism.
People are people, gay, straight or whatever. It really should not be an issue for us. We are what we are,human beings.
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It will be a great day when stories/ threads like this are no longer needed because gay people will be as relevant/irrelevant as hetrosexual people. At the end of the day, and at least the gay people I know just want to get one with their lives and not be known for their sexuality. Because it doesn't matter at all, does it?
It shouldn't, but it does for some narrow-minded idiots. Like the pope.
It's not just the pope though is it. Lots of people question other people's sexuality, and it's usually via an insult. Until casual insults and the usual finger pointing and mocking ends then gay people will not be treated with the same respect that every other person is.
It was a throwaway line tbh, I know homophobia is still prevalent in many areas of society, not just religion.
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This is because of the following:
My gaffer is male
My next door neighbours are white
I am married to a woman.
I have no gay friends, well at least to my knowledge anyway.
My doctor is a white man.
I took this as an insult as I pointed out none of the above were my doing.
Surely marrying a woman is your doing, unless you were forced into something you didn't want to do?
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This is because of the following:
My gaffer is male
My next door neighbours are white
I am married to a woman.
I have no gay friends, well at least to my knowledge anyway.
My doctor is a white man.
I took this as an insult as I pointed out none of the above were my doing.
Surely marrying a woman is your doing, unless you were forced into something you didn't want to do?
Do you think homo / heterosexuality is a choice rather than something that comes naturally to someone?
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This is because of the following:
My gaffer is male
My next door neighbours are white
I am married to a woman.
I have no gay friends, well at least to my knowledge anyway.
My doctor is a white man.
I took this as an insult as I pointed out none of the above were my doing.
Surely marrying a woman is your doing, unless you were forced into something you didn't want to do?
Do you think homo / heterosexuality is a choice rather than something that comes naturally to someone?
His sexuality isn't a choice but whether or not he marries a woman clearly is.
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It was meant to be offensive, and it was.
In your opinion.
So you can be as offensive as you like as long as you meant it as a joke?
See this is exactly what i'm talking about. In your opinion you took it that he was saying it as an offensive remark. In my opinion he was making a joke via wordplay.
Both are opinions
You however, said "It was meant to be offensive, and it was." Which by my reckoning is stating a fact and that is wrong.
That sounds like a cop out so you can say what you like however offensive just as long as you claim you were only joking.
It isn't a cop out at all. I don't know for certain that he meant it as an insult and you don't know for certain that he didn't. It is down to the way you read it. I have at no stage said it's ok if it's 'only joking' but words both written and spoken can mean very different things.
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Edit
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I don't think there's any doubt Sonlyme meant to be as offensive as possible. In any case, several people were offended, so whatever his intentions, he caused offence.
Hmmmm.So were you intending to be offensive when you made the remark about the gay fella being brilliant at show business trivia?
Only you and sonlyme know what was meant in those two posts. For everyone else it's down to interpretation.
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This is because of the following:
My gaffer is male
My next door neighbours are white
I am married to a woman.
I have no gay friends, well at least to my knowledge anyway.
My doctor is a white man.
I took this as an insult as I pointed out none of the above were my doing.
Surely marrying a woman is your doing, unless you were forced into something you didn't want to do?
Do you think homo / heterosexuality is a choice rather than something that comes naturally to someone?
His sexuality isn't a choice but whether or not he marries a woman clearly is.
Well, yes, but was that the point he was actually trying to make?
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The question during my diversity training was whether i lived with a man or a woman. I live with my wife.
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I don't think there's any doubt Sonlyme meant to be as offensive as possible. In any case, several people were offended, so whatever his intentions, he caused offence.
Hmmmm.So were you intending to be offensive when you made the remark about the gay fella being brilliant at show business trivia?
Only you and sonlyme know what was meant in those two posts. For everyone else it's down to interpretation.
No, I wasn't trying to be offensive, it was just a crap retort to john e's post before it. And guess what, nobody was offended by it. If you honestly can't tell the difference between that and Sonlyme's post, it's not worth trying to explain it to you.
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Rissbert, no point trying to explain to me? Oh ok question my intelligence because i point out that one person's throw away comment could be perceived as offensive stereotyping but isn't yet another poster's possible attempt at a joke is met with fury. You'll notice that at no point i've insulted anyone, so you carry on mate patronising people who point out problems with interpretation of comments. Classy.
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I see levity is frowned upon here.
Though I reserve the right to make 'off colour' gags.
Unless that makes me a rascist as well as a homophobe?
I don't care about colour. I don't care about orientation. I care about the embryonic Villa. And the stifling negativity I see on here from time to time.
Kind regards.
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I see levity is frowned upon here.
Though I reserve the right to make 'off colour' gags.
Try to make them funny in that case.
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I see levity is frowned upon here.
Though I reserve the right to make 'off colour' gags.
Try to make them funny in that case.
You first...
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You first what?
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I see levity is frowned upon here.
Though I reserve the right to make 'off colour' gags.
Unless that makes me a rascist as well as a homophobe?
I don't care about colour. I don't care about orientation. I care about the embryonic Villa. And the stifling negativity I see on here from time to time.
Kind regards.
Not exactly the apology I requested was it?
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Riss, your's was as bad as the other one, just less graphic.
Kisses, Perc.
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That's Religion for you, a control mechanism.
People are people, gay, straight or whatever. It really should not be an issue for us. We are what we are,human beings.
Daniel, for a man who is so pissed so much of the time, you speak much sense
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That's Religion for you, a control mechanism.
People are people, gay, straight or whatever. It really should not be an issue for us. We are what we are,human beings.
Daniel, for a man who is so pissed so much of the time, you speak much sense
He'll drink to that.
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People are people
Then why should it be, that you and I get along so awfully?
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I'm off out shortly, I'll do the same :)
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I listened to the West Ham Man U commentary on the radio on my drive home from VP. I suppose it is just me but every time Matt Jarvis got the ball i curled my toes in anticipation of GT making an unintended double entendre. Mercifully they all dodged that bullet.
The worst homophobe I have ever met was a retired army officer turned auctioneer. His selling patter was virtually a stream of sexist and homophobic offensiveness. One day a new buyer came to the market whose name was Gay. We all stood around taking bets on how long it would take the auctioneer to make an offensive remark. It looked like we had all lost our money on the sweepstake because he got to the very last items for sale without some massive guffaw and hoot about the man's name. Strawberries came up for sale and Mr Gay bought them. The auctioneer could barely contain himself. His face went purple with the stain of keeping his malicious vocabulary in check then he said "How many gays will you take Mr Tray?" We all exploded with laughter that he had fallen at the very last fence. True story. Our Damon might have even been there.
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The question during my diversity training was whether i lived with a man or a woman. I live with my wife.
I think some organisations would be better off referring to courses of the above ilk as diversity awareness training.
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For any footballer wanting to come maybe they should go down the Gareth Thomas route.He was at the end of his career and told the rugby world he was gay.A load of respect was given to him,and his post rugby career took off.Just a thought.
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Riss, your's was as bad as the other one, just less graphic.
Kisses, Perc.
Was it as bad as implying that all black women have similar characters?
Big hugs, Riss
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I find it completely unpredictable that this thread threatens to turn into a "you're less tolerant than me" spamfest.
On topic, Fair play to Jarvis, he's put himself in the firing line for something he believes in, if by doing this a few youngsters who are thinking of not following up on a career because they're gay and are terrified end up sticking with the game then he's achieved something. Getting fans (as a group not individuals) attitudes to change will be much slower.
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Am I allowed to make a comment about Jarvis 'putting himself in the firing line'?
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Am I allowed to make a comment about Jarvis 'putting himself in the firing line'?
So long as you are funny and it is obviously a joke, I dont think anyone would take offence
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The question during my diversity training was whether i lived with a man or a woman. I live with my wife.
That's a lose / lose situation and no mistake.
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Riss, your's was as bad as the other one, just less graphic.
Kisses, Perc.
Was it as bad as implying that all black women have similar characters?
Big hugs, Riss
God, you're so anal.
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All in all, I reckon this thread has gone pretty well.
Oh yes.
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I see levity is frowned upon here.
Though I reserve the right to make 'off colour' gags.
Unless that makes me a rascist as well as a homophobe?
I don't care about colour. I don't care about orientation. I care about the embryonic Villa. And the stifling negativity I see on here from time to time.
Kind regards.
Not exactly the apology I requested was it?
no he is obviously above that, profound and hilariously funny as well, a real credit to this site.
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I can't believe some people's reactions demanding an apology and say how offended they are. Did it really offend you? Really? It was meant as a joke, not that funny nor (I found personally) offensive. All of a sudden people are shocked. Like you have all never cracked a joke at someone else's expense before nor matter if its age, sexuality, race or religion
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I think that sometimes when it comes to homophobia and racism there seems to be almost a clamour to prove your credentials by how offended you can show yoursef to be. Dave Cooper cracked a couple of crap jokes about a Bolton player and him sounding like something from a Chinese restaurant. Clearly he isn't racist. Sonlyme posted soemthing that I really didn't get but the race to be the first to say how offended a poster was akin to 5 year-olds saying to mommy and daddy that its wrong to shout just so they can feel happy to be told that they are a good boy or girl. It doesn't make Sonlyme a homophobe.
Its not football that is racist or homophobic but,with special regard to the latter, its typical of male humour in not understanding something so resorting to playground humour. Its legislation that changes attitudes and politicising the issues not well meaning white liberals who've done nothing to support gay rights.
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Well said
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I find it completely unpredictable that this thread threatens to turn into a "you're less tolerant than me" spamfest.
On topic, Fair play to Jarvis, he's put himself in the firing line for something he believes in, if by doing this a few youngsters who are thinking of not following up on a career because they're gay and are terrified end up sticking with the game then he's achieved something. Getting fans (as a group not individuals) attitudes to change will be much slower.
I imagine his priority was making a few quid and raising his profile.
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I find it completely unpredictable that this thread threatens to turn into a "you're less tolerant than me" spamfest.
On topic, Fair play to Jarvis, he's put himself in the firing line for something he believes in, if by doing this a few youngsters who are thinking of not following up on a career because they're gay and are terrified end up sticking with the game then he's achieved something. Getting fans (as a group not individuals) attitudes to change will be much slower.
I imagine his priority was making a few quid and raising his profile.
Obviously, a Premiership footballer has to do everything he can to make a crust
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I think that sometimes when it comes to homophobia and racism there seems to be almost a clamour to prove your credentials by how offended you can show yoursef to be. Dave Cooper cracked a couple of crap jokes about a Bolton player and him sounding like something from a Chinese restaurant. Clearly he isn't racist. Sonlyme posted soemthing that I really didn't get but the race to be the first to say how offended a poster was akin to 5 year-olds saying to mommy and daddy that its wrong to shout just so they can feel happy to be told that they are a good boy or girl. It doesn't make Sonlyme a homophobe.
Its not football that is racist or homophobic but,with special regard to the latter, its typical of male humour in not understanding something so resorting to playground humour. Its legislation that changes attitudes and politicising the issues not well meaning white liberals who've done nothing to support gay rights.
Personally i took sonlyme's comments as a bit of "afters", following the "Lambert - shit or not" debate as they are very much at oppostive ends of the arguement. It certainly wasn't funny IMO and i read it as a dig at rissbert, but if he meant it lightheartedly fair enough. Takes all sorts i guess....
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Its not football that is racist or homophobic but,with special regard to the latter, its typical of male humour in not understanding something so resorting to playground humour. Its legislation that changes attitudes and politicising the issues not well meaning white liberals who've done nothing to support gay rights.
The pressure to change legislation is more than likely to come from well meaning liberals. I have to say it amuses me greatly every time someone uses the phrase "well meaning" as if it's some sort of put-down.
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The pressure to change legislation is more than likely to come from well meaning liberals. I have to say it amuses me greatly every time someone uses the phrase "well meaning" as if it's some sort of put-down.
Similarly with the term "do gooder", when you think about it.
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The pressure to change legislation is more than likely to come from well meaning liberals. I have to say it amuses me greatly every time someone uses the phrase "well meaning" as if it's some sort of put-down.
Similarly with the term "do gooder", when you think about it.
Exactly. Good grief, the world needs more people who mean well and want to do good, not fewer.
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I'd like to live in a world where everyone helped everyone else, except for those who use the terms "do gooder" or "pc brigade". Let them fend for themselves.
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Games makers.Fucking ******.Is it alright to say that?
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Games makers.Fucking c***s.Is it alright to say that?
Probably, but why would you want to?
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Games makers.Fucking c***s.Is it alright to say that?
Probably, but why would you want to?
High fiving Everbody should cover it.
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I totally agree with Ger and hilts on the score of the social dilution of the worth of work done by those who want better for their fellow beings.
I think the damning of the "well meaning" and the "do gooder" is part of a contemporary moral shift towards the cult of the anti-hero.
How pernicious the cult of the anti hero has become was brought home to me a few years ago when in a movie (probably one of the Lethal Weapon spawn) Mel Gibson in a lift saw a large sign saying No Smoking and struck a match on it to light a cigarette. He was the good guy. Consider that the tobacco industry has pumped millions into product placement especially in movies and you can join up the dots. Tobacco sponsor wants smoking to be seen as manly and cool. Central character ignores and abuses a deterrent to smoking thereby abusing and denigrating those who want to stay healthier by not smoking.
My point? Attempts to curb damage done by smoking, alcohol, junk food, gambling, loan sharking, pornography, reckless driving and the rest are made to be seen as harmless human habits condemned by the nanny state (the corporate label for the well meaning and the doers of good). Human weakness continues to fuel corporate greed.
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I find it completely unpredictable that this thread threatens to turn into a "you're less tolerant than me" spamfest.
On topic, Fair play to Jarvis, he's put himself in the firing line for something he believes in, if by doing this a few youngsters who are thinking of not following up on a career because they're gay and are terrified end up sticking with the game then he's achieved something. Getting fans (as a group not individuals) attitudes to change will be much slower.
I imagine his priority was making a few quid and raising his profile.
Obviously, a Premiership footballer has to do everything he can to make a crust
A rich person's appetite for money is rarely satiated.
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On the same course we were told that we need to use an universal language as some foreigners would find some aspects of English difficult to understand. The course leader then casually said,
"Yes and that's just the Americans", which prompted some light laughter.
At this point I asked why he'd said American and not Chinese or Indian? That was met by him blushing and mumbling "Well that's well erm different".
To answer your question on behalf of the instructor, the reason he said American is because his joke played on the old "separated by a common language" situation between the Americans and British, which obviously wouldn't work if he did it with Chinese or Indians.
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No it's because he was an utter prick.
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Its not football that is racist or homophobic but,with special regard to the latter, its typical of male humour in not understanding something so resorting to playground humour. Its legislation that changes attitudes and politicising the issues not well meaning white liberals who've done nothing to support gay rights.
The pressure to change legislation is more than likely to come from well meaning liberals. I have to say it amuses me greatly every time someone uses the phrase "well meaning" as if it's some sort of put-down.
This could segue into Stewart Lee talking about how "politically correct" is used as an insult.
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Games makers.Fucking c***s.Is it alright to say that?
Probably, but why would you want to?
I'm with him there, I had to queue for three hours with the fuckers to pick up my accreditation for the games.
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I use the term 'well-meaning' because that's what people may be. But by rushing to prove their badge of concern to others what are they actually doing. Instead of asking for apologies maybe seeing what they can do for the cause. I'd wager not one person here has done that but are happier to appear as if their good intentions on the internet somehow would make Peter Tatchell their mate.
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What would you suggest people do for 'the cause' Pete?
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That's up to them. But if someone becomes so sensitive to the issue I'd have thought they would be more than just someone on a fans forum asking for an apology. That in itself is meaningless.
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Getting back on topic, this thread reminded me of that Brass Eye interview with Peter Tatchell, which aside from being highly comedic ("The frog wouldn't come out of the box, would it?"), raises the good point that at that time, MPs rarely declared their sexuality due to fear of ridicule. It was argued that if two or three people came out at the same time, it would cease to be sensationalist news, and I think that's true with footballers. What's interesting is that when Jeremy Thorpe, the Liberal leader, was outed in the 1970's, it was a huge scandal and ended up in a very messy business involving attempted murder. But I have to be honest, I can't remember the first high-profile MP to come out after that, but I'm sure it didn't happen in tandem, as it were.
I would like to think a footballer coming out would be seen as high-profile news for a short while, followed by people just getting on with their lives. But that wouldn't happen. I don't think the player in question would be a pariah, just a target for abuse, largely as an attempt to throw them off their game. I genuinely think the majority of people in the country, and the same majority of fans, couldn't give two fucks who's gay and who isn't.
But I think it's also important to remember that other sports aren't exactly noted for being easier for homosexuals to come out into. I can only think of a handful of players in a number of sports that have announced their sexuality, and most of them were retired before they did so. I don't think there is active hostility in any sport to homosexuality, just that it's such a rare thing it convinces people to keep quiet. But surely nobody could believe there are no gays in British football, just as they can't believe there are so few to come out across the world?
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Getting back on topic, this thread reminded me of that Brass Eye interview with Peter Tatchell, which aside from being highly comedic ("The frog wouldn't come out of the box, would it?"), raises the good point that at that time, MPs rarely declared their sexuality due to fear of ridicule. It was argued that if two or three people came out at the same time, it would cease to be sensationalist news, and I think that's true with footballers. What's interesting is that when Jeremy Thorpe, the Liberal leader, was outed in the 1970's, it was a huge scandal and ended up in a very messy business involving attempted murder. But I have to be honest, I can't remember the first high-profile MP to come out after that, but I'm sure it didn't happen in tandem, as it were.
What's most interesting about Tatchell is that the 83 Bermondsey election campaign was a truly disgustingly homophobic one waged by the Liberals against Tatchell, really horrible stuff (although in fairness, the Libs / Lib Dems have a long history for really dirty stuff at local level), and their candidate was none other than Simon Hughes, who it later turns out is gay himself.
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Getting back on topic, this thread reminded me of that Brass Eye interview with Peter Tatchell, which aside from being highly comedic ("The frog wouldn't come out of the box, would it?"), raises the good point that at that time, MPs rarely declared their sexuality due to fear of ridicule. It was argued that if two or three people came out at the same time, it would cease to be sensationalist news, and I think that's true with footballers. What's interesting is that when Jeremy Thorpe, the Liberal leader, was outed in the 1970's, it was a huge scandal and ended up in a very messy business involving attempted murder. But I have to be honest, I can't remember the first high-profile MP to come out after that, but I'm sure it didn't happen in tandem, as it were.
What's most interesting about Tatchell is that the 83 Bermondsey election campaign was a truly disgustingly homophobic one waged by the Liberals against Tatchell, really horrible stuff (although in fairness, the Libs / Lib Dems have a long history for really dirty stuff at local level), and their candidate was none other than Simon Hughes, who it later turns out is gay himself.
Hmmm, didn't know that. I wonder if that was a case of 'doth protest too much' after the Thorpe affair and their leaders getting into bed with the SDP?
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Possibly veering back into sexual stereotypes here but the people i knew at school in early teen years who later came out as gay wouldn't have been seen dead in the school football team and therefore never had the chance to be scouted further down the line. They were probably put off by the sort of people who did play for the school team which in my school at least was a bit of a clique of the athletic macho types. Mebbe there's not that many of them in football. Mind, rugby was the main sport at our school and hating the bloody game didn't stop me getting selected for the school team every over weekend.
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Possibly veering back into sexual stereotypes here but the people i knew at school in early teen years who later came out as gay wouldn't have been seen dead in the school football team and therefore never had the chance to be scouted further down the line. They were probably put off by the sort of people who did play for the school team which in my school at least was a bit of a clique of the athletic macho types. Mebbe there's not that many of them in football. Mind, rugby was the main sport at our school and hating the bloody game didn't stop me getting selected for the school team every over weekend.
Now Rugger, if ever there was a game for supressed Homo Sexuals, Zulu warrior and alll that
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Possibly veering back into sexual stereotypes here but the people i knew at school in early teen years who later came out as gay wouldn't have been seen dead in the school football team and therefore never had the chance to be scouted further down the line. They were probably put off by the sort of people who did play for the school team which in my school at least was a bit of a clique of the athletic macho types. Mebbe there's not that many of them in football. Mind, rugby was the main sport at our school and hating the bloody game didn't stop me getting selected for the school team every over weekend.
Now Rugger, if ever there was a game for supressed Homo Sexuals, Zulu warrior and alll that
oh aye. think one of the team ended up batting for the other side eventually. As a back row I just didn't like getting pummelled into frozen winter shit by 14 year old forwards with beards - there was some serious over-age shenanigans going on with some of the opposition. Thing is if you didn't turn up they'd come round your house in the minibus and get you out of bed.
Rugby = C***'s game