Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: kippaxvilla2 on December 30, 2012, 02:17:06 PM
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Not quite apples with apples due to squad numbers. But I take back what I said yesterday about this being a worse team than 1986. In terms of the starting line up yesterday I think it's worse, but in terms of the squad quality, today's is much better. You'd like to think that from that 2012 squad, there is a first eleven that is capable of keeping us in this division and it is down to Mr Lambert to rethink his current philospohy. Which of those 1986 players would have got into yesterday's starting line up.....Spink, Dorigo, Elliot, Evans, Keown, Birch, Daley, Walters, Shaw, Thompson?
1986 (the last squad that we were relegated with)
Goalkeeper
Kevin Poole 21/07/1963
Nigel Spink 08/08/1958
Defender
Neale Cooper 24/11/1963
Tony Dorigo 31/12/1965
Paul Elliott 18/03/1964
Allan Evans 12/10/1956
Martin Keown 24/07/1966
Gary Williams 17/06/1960
Midfielder
Paul Birch 20/11/1962
Andy Blair 18/12/1959
Tony Daley 18/10/1967
Mark Walters 02/06/1964
Forward
Warren Aspinall 13/09/1967
Ian Olney 17/12/1969
Gary Shaw 21/01/1961
Simon Stainrod 01/02/1959
Garry Thompson 07/10/1959
2012
Goalkeeper
1 Shay Given 20/04/1976
22 Brad Guzan 09/09/1984
33 Andy Marshall 14/04/1975
Defender
32 Nathan Baker 23/04/1991
27 Joe Bennett 28/03/1990
6 Ciaran Clark 26/09/1989
5 Richard Dunne 21/09/1979
30 Eric Lichaj 17/11/1988
34 Matthew Lowton 09/06/1989
29 Enda Stevens 09/07/1990
4 Ron Vlaar 16/02/1985
37 Derrick Williams 17/01/1993
Midfielder
12 Marc Albrighton 18/11/1989
25 Barry Bannan 01/12/1989
40 Samir Carruthers 04/04/1993
16 Fabian Delph 21/11/1989
8 Karim El Ahmadi 27/01/1985
38 Gary Gardner 26/06/1992
31 Chris Herd 04/04/1989
14 Brett Holman 27/03/1984
7 Stephen Ireland 22/08/1986
10 Charles N'Zogbia 28/05/1986
19 Stilian Petrov 05/07/1979
15 Ashley Westwood 01/04/1990
Forward
11 Gabriel Agbonlahor 13/10/1986
9 Darren Bent 06/02/1984
20 Christian Benteke 03/12/1990
21 Jordan Bowery 02/07/1991
36 Graham Burke 21/09/1993
26 Andreas Weimann 05/08/1991
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The 1986 squad looks quite good on paper but you have to remember that a number of those players were on the way down and a number that were injury prone plus a couple that did not want to be here. That is why we were relegated.
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I think the key similarity is that we were fcuking shit back then and we are now. And we play in the same colours too.
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I remember only Keown playing consistently well. In spite, as it turned out, of not really wanting to be there.
I try to remember that when he's trundled out as an `ex-Arsenal player' on the telly. Palace fans must feel the same about Ian Wright.
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Which of these 1986 players would have got into yesterday's starting line up.....Spink, Dorigo, Elliot, Evans, Keown, Birch, Daley, Walters, Shaw, Thompson?
I've sussed out why we were so bad in 1986: we played with only 10 men.
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There's names not listed, e.g. Andy Gray (the original), David Norton and Paul Kerr.
The squad we were relegated with had too many experienced players who were suffering long-term injuries and the kids were generally not good enough - although the fact that a number did go on fulfill their potential elsewhere suggests other issues.
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The 86 squad surely had more midfielders ?
Worringly the 86 team looks far better (on paper) at least.
Looking back the young players showed real promise that maybe the current crop don't. Keown, Dorigo and Walters were always top quality players that were going to play for the top clubs.
Paul Elliot - oh dear - he was far worse than we have at the moment.
From memory Evans, Daley and Shaw didn't play much because of age, youth and injury respectively. The others though would certainly be an improvement to the current side.
The commom denominator worringly seems to be the midfield being woefully not good enough.
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The 86 squad surely had more midfielders ?
Worringly the 86 team looks far better (on paper) at least.
Looking back the young players showed real promise that maybe the current crop don't. Keown, Dorigo and Walters were always top quality players that were going to play for the top clubs.
Paul Elliot - oh dear - he was far worse than we have at the moment.
From memory Evans, Daley and Shaw didn't play much because of age, youth and injury respectively. The others though would certainly be an improvement to the current side.
The commom denominator worringly seems to be the midfield being woefully not good enough.
for fucks sake, we were ace 2 weeks ago. now apparantly, we are shit. get a fucking grip!
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Bringing back horrible memories. I recall we were especially crap up front. Don't think Gary Shaw played much
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Which of these 1986 players would have got into yesterday's starting line up.....Spink, Dorigo, Elliot, Evans, Keown, Birch, Daley, Walters, Shaw, Thompson?
I've sussed out why we were so bad in 1986: we played with only 10 men.
We did yesterday. The number 7 didn't turn up.
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The 86 squad surely had more midfielders ?
Steve Hunt was a mainstay I recall, and Neale Cooper was a centre mid too, although the o.p. should be given a housepoint for including the elusive Scottish teamsheet-dodger in the first place.
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The 86 squad surely had more midfielders ?
Worringly the 86 team looks far better (on paper) at least.
Looking back the young players showed real promise that maybe the current crop don't. Keown, Dorigo and Walters were always top quality players that were going to play for the top clubs.
Paul Elliot - oh dear - he was far worse than we have at the moment.
From memory Evans, Daley and Shaw didn't play much because of age, youth and injury respectively. The others though would certainly be an improvement to the current side.
The commom denominator worringly seems to be the midfield being woefully not good enough.
for fucks sake, we were ace 2 weeks ago. now apparantly, we are shit. get a fucking grip!
Getting a fucking grip what don't you agree with ?
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The 86 squad surely had more midfielders ?
Steve Hunt was a mainstay I recall, and Neale Cooper was a centre mid too, although the o.p. should be given a housepoint for including the elusive Scottish teamsheet-dodger in the first place.
I actually saw him make his debut (or one of his first games for us, not quite sure) up at Celtic in a preseason friendly. Mind you, the Celtic fans were not too friendly to him that day.
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There's names not listed, e.g. Andy Gray (the original), David Norton and Paul Kerr.
The squad we were relegated with had too many experienced players who were suffering long-term injuries and the kids were generally not good enough - although the fact that a number did go on fulfill their potential elsewhere suggests other issues.
That sounds awfully similar to today's problems.
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The 86 squad surely had more midfielders ?
Steve Hunt was a mainstay I recall, and Neale Cooper was a centre mid too, although the o.p. should be given a housepoint for including the elusive Scottish teamsheet-dodger in the first place.
I think there are a couple of inaccuracies/omissions. For a start off the website I trawled this from said that GT was the manager in that season which of course he most certainly was not.
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Cooper was a real hard player, only trouble is he rarely fecking played cos he was always injured. Keown was the best player by far that season . Steve Hunt did ok, but that was an awful fecking season. Graham Turner started season as manager then we got the messiah Billy McNeill
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Those 1986 midfielders are as poor as the 2012/13 version...
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Wasn't Stevie H there for a time in that season?
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The 86 squad surely had more midfielders ?
Worringly the 86 team looks far better (on paper) at least.
Looking back the young players showed real promise that maybe the current crop don't. Keown, Dorigo and Walters were always top quality players that were going to play for the top clubs.
Paul Elliot - oh dear - he was far worse than we have at the moment.
From memory Evans, Daley and Shaw didn't play much because of age, youth and injury respectively. The others though would certainly be an improvement to the current side.
The commom denominator worringly seems to be the midfield being woefully not good enough.
for fucks sake, we were ace 2 weeks ago. now apparantly, we are shit. get a fucking grip!
Getting a fucking grip what don't you agree with ?
i will tell you that i cannot believe everyones response with 3 defeats, as i said if something is so right 2 weeks ago why is it all so fucking wrong 3 defeats later?
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Keown was the best player that season by a mile. And the season after when we got promoted.
Interestingly (or otherwise) he occasionally sites on 5live how the 1986-87 was tipped as an outside bet to win the league.
That squad should have been a top half one but two very bad managerial appointments - the second who I still hold in utter utter contempt ensured a season in the 2nd tier awaited.
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Anyone who is too young to remember the 86 team should click below;
http://youtu.be/F6T42PGarqs
The clearance attempt by Elliott is the most pathetic bit of defending I have ever seen in the Professional game.
The 86 team had some players who played for some trophy winning clubs, plus 2 European Cup winners. I remember an article in Shoot magazine where Allan Evans made a scathing report on his teammates. Wish I still had it, as it would have been interesting to read again.
Both that team and our current allow the opposition to split us open at every opportunity. As someone mentioned before, we desperately need a spine in the team, with midfield the priority. Hope Vlaar returns soon so we can rest Clark, he's looking extremely down.
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Oldham_villa, there is too much pressure on Clark, he has done well this season and I thought he was improving alongside Vlaar, but he should not be the boss and captain in this team at this time. I think he could do a good job in the middle with Westwood to be honest.
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Anyone who is too young to remember the 86 team should click below;
http://youtu.be/F6T42PGarqs
The clearance attempt by Elliott is the most pathetic bit of defending I have ever seen in the Professional game.
The 86 team had some players who played for some trophy winning clubs, plus 2 European Cup winners. I remember an article in Shoot magazine where Allan Evans made a scathing report on his teammates. Wish I still had it, as it would have been interesting to read again.
Both that team and our current allow the opposition to split us open at every opportunity. As someone mentioned before, we desperately need a spine in the team, with midfield the priority. Hope Vlaar returns soon so we can rest Clark, he's looking extremely down.
That was more one sided than the Chelsea game. We had a few tonkings that season. Only 4 years after Rotterdam!
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Luton, yes I'm with you there. He had looked very assured alongside Vlaar and was looking stronger. Thing is, who could he have given the captaincy to, if not him? He was captain of the reserves so clearly has some leadership qualities.
The 3rd goal pretty much convinced me Lowton is not a centre half, still can't believe how weak his challenge was. Things will surely improve when we have Baker and Vlaar back, and get someone in the middle of the park
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Oldham, from the little I saw of Baker before this season, I didnt think he had it in him to be a premiership player, but some of his performances make me think I may be wrong and with a bloke like Vlaar alongside him he may be a good player. I agree with you on Clark, he was the obvious choice as captain, just think it is a big ask on a young lad to put so much pressure on him, and dont really mean the captaincy by that, just the whole defence. Lowton has been quietly impressive at right back IMO and think he will be like a Delaney, not a world beater, but great player for our club.
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Yeah I do hope so pal.
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By the end of that season we had a crop of youngster who were supposedly top quality. sound familiar.
I'm sure there was phil robinson darren bradley and dean glover in the side wgen we were eventually relegated
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Well Phil Robinson made his only appearance for us didn't he I'm the game at Old Tradford.
By all accounts, Dean Glover was a willing player, tho I never saw him in the flesh.
I detest Paul Elliott whenever I see him, what a crock of shit he was, an older day Curtis Davies
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Like today, the defence we had in 1986 included highly rated young players - Paul Elliott, Martin Keown and Tony Dorigo all went on to have very good high level careers with other clubs. Unfortunately, like todays defence they were ultimately found to be too inexperienced as a group to be up to the task. However, again like today the defence was aided by an unbalanced and inadequate midfield protecting it.
If it's true we only have £10m to spend in January I'd spend it all on two midfield players with some backbone and physicality who could shield the defence. That might at least give our more creative youngsters more freedom to flourish at the other end of the pitch.
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The 86 squad surely had more midfielders ?
Steve Hunt was a mainstay I recall, and Neale Cooper was a centre mid too, although the o.p. should be given a housepoint for including the elusive Scottish teamsheet-dodger in the first place.
I think there are a couple of inaccuracies/omissions. For a start off the website I trawled this from said that GT was the manager in that season which of course he most certainly was not.
As I remember Hunt and Blair were signed in the middle of season. Also in desperate need of a striker we turned to Warren Aspinal.
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Well Phil Robinson made his only appearance for us didn't he I'm the game at Old Tradford.
By all accounts, Dean Glover was a willing player, tho I never saw him in the flesh
I have a fuzzy memory of Phil Robinson scoring in our 1-2 home defeat to Sheffield Weds which sent us down in 1987. I knew what was coming ( i had been at Highbury 2 days before and the writing was on the wall) so had a lot of beer before the game, and it is all a bit misty.
Dean Glover was indeed an honest journeyman, but not good enough for top flight football.
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Anyone who is too young to remember the 86 team should click below;
http://youtu.be/F6T42PGarqs
The clearance attempt by Elliott is the most pathetic bit of defending I have ever seen in the Professional game.
The 86 team had some players who played for some trophy winning clubs, plus 2 European Cup winners. I remember an article in Shoot magazine where Allan Evans made a scathing report on his teammates. Wish I still had it, as it would have been interesting to read again.
Both that team and our current allow the opposition to split us open at every opportunity. As someone mentioned before, we desperately need a spine in the team, with midfield the priority. Hope Vlaar returns soon so we can rest Clark, he's looking extremely down.
Fuck me they could have had 26!
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Did Neale Cooper ever actually kick a ball for us?
Time plays tricks with the memory, but I only really remember him as being permanently injured.
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Did Neale Cooper ever actually kick a ball for us?
Time plays tricks with the memory, but I only really remember him as being permanently injured.
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Yeah it was a deflected shot at the Witton End, we were two down by that point and the goal was greeted with a half-hearted yuh. I think it was Stuart Richie (?) that made his only appearance at Old Trafford, his only contribution nodding back the cross for Birchie (possibly) to score. Lots of possibly in there, someone wiser could probably fill in the gaps.
All I remember from that season was that we had a purple patch from beating Cov away 0-1, then Southampton at home 3-1. Then one or two games 2-0 at home - one being Leicester. We then got beat 4-2 at Watford and other than the League Cup, didn't win again 'til Spring, again against Cov. There was one more win against West Ham 4-0, when it could have been six - Aspinall's best game for us. And other than a couple of decent draws (manure 3-3 at home, Liverpool 3-3 a 2-2 h) that was it. 86-87 a couple of games where we tonked the opposition and the rest a load of garbage.
Finally Evans played plenty. He was close to being/was top scorer, along with Bruno and Monkey Poo with six. Neale Cooper played six or so games, notably scoring on a pitch that would have been iced off against Chelsea in the Cup and kicking Stuart Pearce rather hard in the 0-0 at home.
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Sorry quote fail - deflected shot by Phil Robinson v Sheffield Wed.
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Yeah it was a deflected shot at the Witton End, we were two down by that point and the goal was greeted with a half-hearted yuh. I think it was Stuart Richie (?) that made his only appearance at Old Trafford, his only contribution nodding back the cross for Birchie (possibly) to score. Lots of possibly in there, someone wiser could probably fill in the gaps.
All I remember from that season was that we had a purple patch from beating Cov away 0-1, then Southampton at home 3-1. Then one or two games 2-0 at home - one being Leicester. We then got beat 4-2 at Watford and other than the League Cup, didn't win again 'til Spring, again against Cov. There was one more win against West Ham 4-0, when it could have been six - Aspinall's best game for us. And other than a couple of decent draws (manure 3-3 at home, Liverpool 3-3 a 2-2 h) that was it. 86-87 a couple of games where we tonked the opposition and the rest a load of garbage.
Finally Evans played plenty. He was close to being/was top scorer, along with Bruno and Monkey Poo with six. Neale Cooper played six or so games, notably scoring against Chelsea on a pitch that would have been iced off against Chelsea in the Cup and kicking Stuart Pearce rather hard in the 0-0 at home.
The headline in the newspaper after the West Ham win was "It's vintage claret!"
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The 86 squad surely had more midfielders ?
Worringly the 86 team looks far better (on paper) at least.
Looking back the young players showed real promise that maybe the current crop don't. Keown, Dorigo and Walters were always top quality players that were going to play for the top clubs.
Paul Elliot - oh dear - he was far worse than we have at the moment.
From memory Evans, Daley and Shaw didn't play much because of age, youth and injury respectively. The others though would certainly be an improvement to the current side.
The commom denominator worringly seems to be the midfield being woefully not good enough.
for fucks sake, we were ace 2 weeks ago. now apparantly, we are shit. get a fucking grip!
Getting a fucking grip what don't you agree with ?
i will tell you that i cannot believe everyones response with 3 defeats, as i said if something is so right 2 weeks ago why is it all so fucking wrong 3 defeats later?
In my view it wasn't 'so right' 2 weeks ago, it's was not as bad as it had been, the Liverpool game was a good win but had they scored while they bossed the first 25 mins it could have been different.
With regard to the last 3 games did you watch any of them? We lost 8-0 and it could have been12, the 4-0 could have been 6 as could the Wigan game.
Our team is as week as I have seen in a long time
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I remember when we signed Cooper, I knew nothing about him, hoping he was some mercurial genius. I'm pretty sure his first game was against Forest at ours. Answered all my questions within about four seconds. His first "touch" was to put one of their players into the third row of the witton. So, as to whether he kicked a ball for us, I'll leave that for someone else to recall
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The defending in that 86/87 loss to Forest is the worst I have ever seen as a villa supporter.
We are not that bad today.
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Didn't Robinson make his debut away at Southampton?
I was there that day - 4-0 down after 17 minutes but did superbly well to only lose 5-0 by the end.
Although comparing that to the Wigan game wouldn't see much difference overall, we had a fucking clueless manager then with no idea. At this point we have a plan and a manager who I trust to get us through this.
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Although comparing that to the Wigan game wouldn't see much difference overall, we had a fucking clueless manager then with no idea. At this point we have a plan and a manager who I trust to get us through this.
Agreed. Lambert is the most positive thing we have had in two years. He gives me hope. He will get it right.
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I can remember standing on the Holte toward the end of the season after another defeat waiting for the results from other games and trying to do some mental maths to see if we were going or gone.
Not a good feeling, and I am getting that feeling again this season.
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There must have been major major problems behind the scenes back in 86. The back 4 v Forest was; Gary Williams, Allan Evans, Paul Elliott and Tony Dorigo.
Forest had a fantastic team back then, but that performance was criminal.
I would dearly love Allan Evans to write a detailed autobiography, as he saw the biggest high and low at the Villa
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Seems quite an apt bump, as that shower tonight and of recent weeks is certainly no better than McNeill's team in my opinion. There is the same stench of relegation as '87.
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Lack of goals did for us that year. From the start of the new year only Southampton battered us. But in the twenty games from Jan 1st we only scored fifteen goals and four of them were in the West Ham game when we were as good as down. Stainrod and Thompson got six goals each all season, Andy Gray scored once in eighteen games and Aspinall didn't score in his first eleven games for us.
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As I remember Hunt and Blair were signed in the middle of season. Also in desperate need of a striker we turned to Warren Aspinal.
That's the way I remember it too.
As for that Forest game, didn't Franz Carr play a blinder for them and get a couple that day?
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Blair was signed after we won the league, our only summer signing that close season!
Imagine an H&V transfer thread in those days!!
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Seems quite an apt bump, as that shower tonight and of recent weeks is certainly no better than McNeill's team in my opinion. There is the same stench of relegation as '87.
We are only as good or bad as the teams around us. Are there worse teams than us today unlike '87? Sat may help us to answer that.
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There was a young Erdington lad called Mark Burke that made his debut that season too. Another one that didn't really make the grade, pretty sure he went to Wolves at some stage.