Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: SoccerHQ on December 03, 2012, 08:41:56 PM
-
What do people think about us apparently playing this at QPR?
Do we think it's a one-off or do people think we might see more of it particularly away from home?
Don't quite see the logic when Lichaj is supposed to be the left attacking full back for one.
-
I couldn't really tell what formation we played. Might have been a 0-0-0? We were shite, especially Lichaj, who I normally like. Stick to four at the back and hope Bennett and/or Stevens are back soon, Lichaj can return to competing with Lowton for the right-back spot.
-
I agree.
I presume we changed it to man mark Taarabt?
-
would be nice to have a bit of width to our play, we seem to play a very narrow formation with the odd deep cross from the fullbacks. Enda Stevens seems to have put the best crosses in , Bennett hasn't settled down yet , Albrighton is suffering a crisis of confidence , maybe Charles can do something ? The 3-5-2 is not going to give us loads of chances?
-
Who crossed for the Benteke offside goal? That was perfect.
-
Who crossed for the Benteke offside goal? That was perfect.
Lowton, I think..
-
would be nice to have a bit of width to our play, we seem to play a very narrow formation with the odd deep cross from the fullbacks. Enda Stevens seems to have put the best crosses in , Bennett hasn't settled down yet , Albrighton is suffering a crisis of confidence , maybe Charles can do something ? The 3-5-2 is not going to give us loads of chances?
Don't know about that. It means we could keep the shape we currently have in midfield (two defensive midfielders and an attacking one), but could also have options out wide as well. From what I have seen of him, Bennett looks like he would be suited to that role, but I'm not sure if Lowton is and whether he would be better as the right sided CB iof the the three.
It also allows the possibility to partner Bent with Benteke.
-
Who crossed for the Benteke offside goal? That was perfect.
Lowton.
-
Nzogbia has played a fair few games at LB so could be considered for the left wing back position.
If he can be arsed of course.
It's not a formation that I particularly like but it could allow us to shoe-horn Bent into the team without forfeiting the midfield.
-
3-5-2 worked well under Taylor in the early nineties, with good attacking fullbacks it gives us some much needed width & we get to have 2 forwards. We would need better players than Lichaj & Herd but it could give some better attacking options.
-
It wasn't obvious from the stream I wasn't watching that we were playing 3-5-2
Neither full back got forward, both Gabby and Holman were often occupying fairly wide positions.
Herd seemed have been given the kind of thankless job that supporters tend not to notice. He must have done it very well because I didn't notice him at all.
-
Herd was very anonymous. Williams gave much better balance on the left, and looked a bit quicker than Lichaj, who did ok on the right. Lowton was pretty attacking at Sheffield United, and Bennett is very much the wing back style player, so it could work very well, but you need Clark to step out of defence with the ball into midfield and the back 2 then to be Vlaar and someone mobile.
-
I couldn't tell either. Some players just kept drifting everywhere. The team page on Yahoo's matchcast listed Herd in midfield which threw me off a little. If he was playing as a mid then he was very poor and anonymous. As a third centre-half then I guess his anonymity was a good thing. As normal he defended pretty well.
But yes, the formation became clearer after the subs were made.
It could work. I think on the left, we need better. Delph or maybe even Williams who seems to have a turn of pace, would be a reasonable wing back option. Lichaj is too slow and clumsy on the ball. As one of the 3 CH's, Lichaj would be okay.
With this formation I couldn't really see a place for Ireland particularly. I mean when we played it under Gregory, Merson played as the more advanced of a mid- 3 to great effect but A-he's a different class of player, and B- He had Tayls and Boateng mopping up behind him.
I still thing we look better playing a 4-3-3 in all honesty. We seem too narrow up top with two front men. Gabby didn't really pull wide enough against the R's. He's more effective on the flanks these days than he is through the middle.
That 3rd cb made us look a little more solid in some regards but then again we didn't keep a clean sheet, unlike the previous two games.
-
The Sun and Evening Mail both classed it as a 3-5-2 which is why I posted this thread.
-
This been posted yet? Interesting take I thought, shows how much thinking Lambert puts int these things.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1429809-aston-villa-analysing-paul-lambert-the-latest-to-try-a-3-man-defensive-system
-
3-5-2/5-3-2 worked a treat back in the days of Little when you had Wright and Charles bombing down the wings. You need two quick wing backs who are full of running and will run until they drop otherwise it leaves you exposed.
In principle i think it's worth a go but you have to have two hard working full backs. Who would these be, Lowton and Stevens? I see that Heard was shoe horned in at the back which just shows that perhaps we don't have the necessary centre backs to play this formation every week.
-
I'm a fan of 3-5-2 but it lives or dies on two key factors:
- quick and skillful Wing-backs;
- footballing CB.
Saturday was an interesting diversion by Lambert and as he gets more confient about his squad I'd expect these sorts of changes more frequently.
I've said before: I see Delph as a left Wing-Back in a 3-5-2.
-
Mat Kendrick in the Evening Mail is suggesting that Lambert might stick with the 3-5-2 formation tomorrow, which I don't think would be a bad idea. With three at the back, we could have two cenmtre-halves challenging for the ball in the air and a sweeper behind them picking up any flick-ons. Clark would probably be the one to drop off and pick up any pieces.
-
Out of Herd and Lowton which one would partner Baker and which one would be wing back assuming Vlaar is out? I don't really see Lichaj as a left wing back, but who else is there? Delph? N'Zog? I'd probably bring Ireland in for Bannan, don't think there is much between them right now so would rotate to keep them fresh. Westwood over KEA, but again maybe bring KEA in for a start or 2 over the busy winter period to stop others burning out.
-
We've just hit some good form and look like we've found a working formation. Not sure I'd like to change it already.
-
Guzan
Vlaar. Baker. Clark
Lowton. Westwood. Bannan. Ireland Bennett
Benteke. Bent
When all fit I'd like to go with that line up.
-
Guzan
Vlaar. Baker. Clark
Lowton. Westwood. Bannan. Ireland Bennett
Benteke. Bent
When all fit I'd like to go with that line up.
N'Zogbia would be my left wing back. Think he would be a real thr Guzan
Vlaar. Baker. Clark
Lowton. Westwood. Bannan. Ireland Bennett
Benteke. Bent
When all fit I'd like to go with that line up.
I'd have N'Zogbia as the left wing back. Would give us much more of a threat going forward whcih is key to having wingbacks. Appreciate he would need to improve his work rate, but he isn't going to get back in anyway unless he demonstrates that to Lambert.
-
The thing with 3-5-2 is that you need two of your best players to be the wing-backs. Even if they are absolutely top-notch at both defence and attack, any time they come up against two very good wide players, they'll spend their whole time defending and so lose any attacking presence in the opponent's half. When we used the system under Little, it worked best when we used Tommy Johnson as the link man between midfield and attack. I suppose Ireland could play that role, but then we don't have anybody of the quality of Townsend or Draper to assist him these days. Back in the 90s, when Ian Taylor took Johnson's spot in the team, it rendered 3-5-2 far less effective. Personally I'd rather it stayed back in the 90s alongside Global Hypercolour T-shirts and Britpop.
-
Guzan
Vlaar. Baker. Clark
Lowton. Westwood. Bannan. Ireland Bennett
Benteke. Bent
When all fit I'd like to go with that line up.
N'Zogbia would be my left wing back. Think he would be a real thr Guzan
Vlaar. Baker. Clark
Lowton. Westwood. Bannan. Ireland Bennett
Benteke. Bent
When all fit I'd like to go with that line up.
I'd have N'Zogbia as the left wing back. Would give us much more of a threat going forward whcih is key to having wingbacks. Appreciate he would need to improve his work rate, but he isn't going to get back in anyway unless he demonstrates that to Lambert.
I agree nzogbia would give maybe more attacking threat as a wing back but his workrate is poor and I think he would leave us exposed too often- Bennett once match fit and settled I think will be a decent player and I'd give him and Lowton a go as wing backs .
-
Out of Herd and Lowton which one would partner Baker and which one would be wing back assuming Vlaar is out? I don't really see Lichaj as a left wing back, but who else is there? Delph? N'Zog? I'd probably bring Ireland in for Bannan, don't think there is much between them right now so would rotate to keep them fresh. Westwood over KEA, but again maybe bring KEA in for a start or 2 over the busy winter period to stop others burning out.
From what Kendrick was saying in the Evening Mail, Lowton would be wing-back and Herd one of the three centre-backs. I don't think Lowton and Lichaj get forward that well, so we would be looking at more of a 5-3-2.
-
Having read the kendrick piece it gives the distinct impression of a journo who's been given precisely no insights into the manager's thinking for tomorrow
352 could work well against stoke, but it probably involves lichaj at left back but that can't be a good thing!
-
Guzan
Vlaar. Baker. Clark
Lowton. Westwood. Bannan. Ireland Bennett
Benteke. Bent
When all fit I'd like to go with that line up.
Would agree with that line up for the time being Eastie. If we were to stick with that formation going forward, we would probably only need a more natural right wing-back (think Lowton would be more suited to RCB in that formation)and a central midfielder in the transfer window.
-
Nzogbia has played a fair few games at LB so could be considered for the left wing back position.
If he can be arsed of course.
no no no no noooooooo
-
Nzogbia has played a fair few games at LB so could be considered for the left wing back position.
If he can be arsed of course.
no no no no noooooooo
why not?
-
N'Zogbia would too readily neglect his defensive responsibilities. In that formation you need someone who can basically occupy 2 positions - getting forward and back all game. Even if his work ethic has miraculously changed, he won't have the fitness levels for a good while having only been back in training for 2 days.
-
He spent most of his youth and Newcastle career playing left-back.
-
Indeed. A fact that is surprisingly often overlooked.
-
He's played left back for France too I think.
-
He used to get found out in that position too. He's also said that he never enjoyed playing there - in fact, he thought he was too good to be playing left back and thought he was a left sided midfielder. I really doubt he has the engine for the position.
-
Agreed N'zogbia has never given the impression he has any defensive capabilites whatsoever. Mind you never has he on the attacking side.
Be interesting to see how Bennett or Stevens would look in that position but I'd rather just see it in away games.
-
Bennett is the man for the left wing back role, which I think would give us a lot more momentum going forwards in this formation.
Still need the tip of the diamond to be a better player than those we have though, and we need other options to Gabby and Benteke. To be able to pull them off at 60 minutes for a more cunning pair would be useful.
-
Bennett is the man for the left wing back role, which I think would give us a lot more momentum going forwards in this formation.
Still need the tip of the diamond to be a better player than those we have though, and we need other options to Gabby and Benteke. To be able to pull them off at 60 minutes for a more cunning pair would be useful.
Agree with your point about Bennett Ozz. If we are going to continue with the 3-5-2 we are definitely going to need someone in the attacking midfielder role.
-
I still think 4231 is the long term plan as the main shape for the side.
As I mentioned on the stoke post match thread for this window we need to focus on the 3. If we could get a couple of 2 footed players who can play left/centre and right/centre either right up top or just off a front man we'd be in a really strong position, squad wise.
I know it's fashionable to slate him for the diving now but 2 ashley young style players (but preferably a bit more physical) would be perfect right now, good running with the ball, can go wide and cross or can come in and shoot, and without the ball are willing to get into the box and make an extra option.
-
Lambert seems to be sorting the defence out, I am sure he will then be looking at the offensive side, so far he has only bought Benteke. I really think Lambert will do a cracking job for this club.
-
I still think 4231 is the long term plan as the main shape for the side.
As I mentioned on the stoke post match thread for this window we need to focus on the 3. If we could get a couple of 2 footed players who can play left/centre and right/centre either right up top or just off a front man we'd be in a really strong position, squad wise.
I know it's fashionable to slate him for the diving now but 2 ashley young style players (but preferably a bit more physical) would be perfect right now, good running with the ball, can go wide and cross or can come in and shoot, and without the ball are willing to get into the box and make an extra option.
Young and Downing either side of Benteke would be awesome in fairness.
-
I can't help but feel that he's made the switch to three at the back at least in part to compensate for the temporary loss of Vlaar by relying on defensive safety in numbers. I'm sure there would be other reasons as well, but it does seem to benefit the younger players to have teammates very nearby in tight situations. I liked the way that the wide centre-backs became full-backs and the full-backs wingers in possession.
-
I can't help but feel that he's made the switch to three at the back at least in part to compensate for the temporary loss of Vlaar by relying on defensive safety in numbers. I'm sure there would be other reasons as well, but it does seem to benefit the younger players to have teammates very nearby in tight situations. I liked the way that the wide centre-backs became full-backs and the full-backs wingers in possession.
good point actually and good the lads have responded to it
-
If we play with two wing-backs, I think we can sacrifice something defensively on one side. Lowton is solid. We need better than Lichaj on the left certainly.
I think CNZ has looked more determined this season. Put in more effort. The confidence is still a long way off, but I'd give him a try at LWB. The beauty of the 3 at the back system, is you have cover, and we have two left footed CH's to cover that side if he's gone missing. Ditto, the only place I can really see for Delph right now, is LWB. His touch isn't good enough in CM. His pace would be useful. The way Lambert is, players know, if you want in, you play where you're told and you don't shirk. If CNZ wants to play for us, he'll play where-ever he's told and likes it. If not, then we ship him off and buy better. I hope he rises to it, because he could offer something offensively we're really missing and that's a bit of flair and invention. I could seeing him playing ahead of BB and Westy too.
I think this system is showing signs of being our way forward. I like it. Get a decent flair player attacking mid, and a better front man to partner Benteke, and we'll be much better.
I think Bannan and Westy play very well together, so for me, they're starting to look like a fixture. BB is starting to finally mature too. His decision making has been a lot better, and he's beginning to find some consistency.
-
I can't help but feel that he's made the switch to three at the back at least in part to compensate for the temporary loss of Vlaar by relying on defensive safety in numbers. I'm sure there would be other reasons as well, but it does seem to benefit the younger players to have teammates very nearby in tight situations. I liked the way that the wide centre-backs became full-backs and the full-backs wingers in possession.
good point actually and good the lads have responded to it
How he's found it I don't know, but I hope he sticks with it a little while because there's promise. I also think we've looked more solid since Vlaar's been out funnily enough. I think he'll have a battle to regain his place. Herd was brilliant yesterday. I can't see Baker or Clark being dropped on current form either. They're both looking like potential internationals.
-
352 is perhaps just the plan while Vlaar is out. Losing his presence was a blow, so adding an extra defender to counter that loss was smart.
-
As others have said the system is great if the wide men bomb forward - I think the following line up is our best way to go forward :
Guzan
Any 3 of Herd Vlaar Baker Clark
Lowton and one other maybe Delph or Bennett, but def not Lichaj - new signing perhaps ?
Bannan Westwood and one of Holman/KEA/Ireland/Nzog
Benteke and one of Gabby/Bent/Weimann
-
The problem with 3-5-2 is that it is easy for the full backs get pinned back to make it 5-3-2. You then get out-manned in midfield as either or both the opposing full backs have space to move forward and the two up top become spectators.
It depends a lot on the fitness of the two wing backs. Often they are moving 60 yards forward to take part in an attack and then have to retreat 60 to help defend.
The end result is that you can be looking to win the game with 4 or sometimes only 3 players, which is what happened a lot during the Stoke game.
It's a good formation as an alternative tactic, but I'd rather see the midfield beefed up and persevere with 4-3-1-3 as our staple starting position.
Either way, it's nice to have a manager who uses his brain and has the balls to try things.
-
Vlaar was pretty good before the injury let's not forget.
-
It's a good formation as an alternative tactic, but I'd rather see the midfield beefed up and persevere with 4-3-1-3 as our staple starting position.
I would like us to play 4-3-1-3 as well. We might score a few more goals with an extra man. Failing that, 4-2-3-1 should be Plan A.
-
I can see us playing with three centre backs and having Vlaar bombing forward. He likes to go on a run and could be effective. The remaining two centre halfs could then go to a normal back four formation to fill in.
-
When you play 3 CBs, the two outside CBs will somtimes need to carry the ball out of defence. I think that role would suit Vlaar well.
-
I think Lambert will choose his tactics considering who we play
-
Lambert seems to plan for several games at a time. He changed to 4-2-3-1 for the Swindon game and largely stuck to the formation and personnel for a number of games and then he went to 3-5-2 for QPR onwards. I wonder what he'll try next and when?
-
I think we may stick with 352 (or 343) over our run of hard fixtures, and potentially keep it against Wigan given they play that way too. But I'd expect us to revert to 4231 after that, hopefully with the addition of one or two options to play in the three attacking midfield roles. That ate of the pitch has to be the priority for me. No one has really convinced they should be a fixture there so far, though in principle Ireland and nzogbia should be the most natural fit.
-
Wasn't a massive fan of the three at the back on Saturday- Stoke just let Baker and Herd have the ball knowing they couldn't do anything with it. It played a big part in our inability to break them down as our main 'out balls' tended to be the two wide centre-backs. We also had next to no width (and when Lowton did get forward we failed to find him)
If we do persevere with it Danny Rose would be perfect for left-wing back and probably available. Although I'd prefer it if they played more like wide-midfielders like Wigan's do- as someone else pointed out you can end up penned in with 5 at the back if you're not very careful.
-
Vlaar was pretty good before the injury let's not forget.
Indeed Vlaar should be the first choice centre half for me.
-
In the first half on saturday, Lowton moved upfield into space on several occasions when we had the ball in the centre left of the park. Unfortunately nobody got their head up enough to change play and move it quickly out to our right flank to him, we just kept playing it around in the middle or out to the left. On occasions I was pleading with BB to do one of his 30/40 yarders from one side to the other but he seems to have cut this out of his game at the moment. If he had done one Lowton would have been in acres of space to attack their full back and maybe pull Shawcross and Huth out of position.
-
In the first half on saturday, Lowton moved upfield into space on several occasions when we had the ball in the centre left of the park. Unfortunately nobody got their head up enough to change play and move it quickly out to our right flank to him, we just kept playing it around in the middle or out to the left. On occasions I was pleading with BB to do one of his 30/40 yarders from one side to the other but he seems to have cut this out of his game at the moment. If he had done one Lowton would have been in acres of space to attack their full back and maybe pull Shawcross and Huth out of position.
He pinged an absolute blinder of a pass in the build up to the Benteke chance at the start of the 2nd half. If it had been played by a media favourite it'd have been shown constantly for the last couple of days. Much like Westwood doing his little trick by the left touchline to get into space.
-
In the first half on saturday, Lowton moved upfield into space on several occasions when we had the ball in the centre left of the park. Unfortunately nobody got their head up enough to change play and move it quickly out to our right flank to him, we just kept playing it around in the middle or out to the left. On occasions I was pleading with BB to do one of his 30/40 yarders from one side to the other but he seems to have cut this out of his game at the moment. If he had done one Lowton would have been in acres of space to attack their full back and maybe pull Shawcross and Huth out of position.
He pinged an absolute blinder of a pass in the build up to the Benteke chance at the start of the 2nd half. If it had been played by a media favourite it'd have been shown constantly for the last couple of days. Much like Westwood doing his little trick by the left touchline to get into space.
That was honestly Zidane-esque. Not saying Westwood is Zidane obviously, but that was sheer class.
-
The big advantage is that it allows another forward ,Bent or Weimann , to capitalise on the havoc that Beneteke can cause.
The big problem is that most teams play only one upfront,with 3 defenders it could leave you outnumbered in midfield. Fortunately, Herd is mobile and being a competitive Aussie is willing to venture forward and Clark has very good technical ability and is comfortable going forward.Lowton is an ideal wing back,how did the Sheffield United fans not rate him ? If Bennett is similar going forward,it will be ideal for us .
-
I agree about Lowton, I think he's a player of the year contender so far. I think he's been brilliant.
-
I think it's been more a 3-4-1-2- than a 3-5-2 so far, with Holman playing in the hole between the midfielders and the forwards.
-
I think it's been more a 3-4-1-2- than a 3-5-2 so far, with Holman playing in the hole between the midfielders and the forwards.
Agreed. It's reminding me of the classic Roma title winning side in terms of shape, especially the way the outer centre-backs go very very wide when we have the ball (you'll know what I'm gabbling on about, Archie!).
-
Mate, I understand what you say, but please note that that A.C. Roma 1927 coached by Luciano Spalletti was never a "title winning side".
They played very well, I must admit, but they arrived second. . .
-
Mate, I understand what you say, but please note that that A.C. Roma 1927 coached by Luciano Spalletti was never a "title winning side".
They played very well, I must admit, but they arrived second. . .
I'm talking about the Capello side, in particular the way the full-backs play as well. We'd be alright if we had Vincent Candela on the other side to Lowton!
-
Ah really? I think that our current style of play is most similar to the Spalletti side instead, because if my memory doesn't fail me, Capello played with 4 defenders, whereas Spalletti was one of the firsts that launched the 3-4-3 in Italy.
-
Ah really? I think that our current style of play is most similar to the Spalletti side instead, because if my memory doesn't fail me, Capello played with 4 defenders, whereas Spalletti was one of the firsts that launched the 3-4-3 in Italy.
That's not what I remember. I remember Spalletti's teams of the 90s like Empoli launching 3-4-3, sure, but his Roma side kind of innovated into the 4-6-0 as a way of getting Totti to play as both trequartista and centre-forward. Capello was tactically flexible and often played 4 at the back, but he also played a broken team style 3-4-1-2, with Candela and Cafu getting really far advanced from full-back, Tommasi and Emerson holding with Totti behind Delvecchio and Montella. (All these names are giving me a nice rush of nostalgia, by the way!)
-
Batistuta was in that team wasn't he, probably my favourite forward growing up.
Lowton is a class act.
-
Batistuta was in that team wasn't he, probably my favourite forward growing up.
Lowton is a class act.
That's right, he came in as Montella was edged out. He was brilliant, as is Lowton - very differently.
-
That Roma side was brilliant, and made for 3412. They had Totti in the no 10 role, and cafu and candela as wing backs. I'm quite looking forward to seeing us play it with a proper left wing back. Bennett or Stevens should be a much more natural fit than lichaj who's basically quite shit I've concluded
-
Interesting reading Lambert talking about it on the main site and saying we may stick with it for a while now. Always been my favourite formation for Villa, back from the Little days to the early Gregory ones, where it worked so well.
We have 3 really good centre backs in Baker, Clark and Vlaar too, all can play a little, and all are damned good defenders, so together I can see them really clicking. Maybe need another one in as backup still, although the joy of it is that the 3rd centre half does not have to be massive so Herd works there well as he is a good footballer.
If Lowton can bomb on the way he did at Norwich, and Bennett can find his feet attacking down the left it gives us the width, we still have 3 bodies in the centre of midfield and can attack with 2 strikers and an attacking midfield player. I am surprised at how little it is used these days, but as the OS says, Lambert played in it at Dortmund.
-
Although the official site gives a headline suggesting we may stick with 352 long term, I don't think Lambert has actually given a particularly strong signal. I imagine we'll see the shape vary between games still.
Lambert said of the new system: "The reasons were a bit half and half for us bringing it in.
"First we played Reading and then QPR and we thought we had to protect things a little.
"But the system also allows you to have good passages of playing football and is a system that is working well."
Asked whether he'd stick with it when Ron Vlaar returns to full fitness, he added: "I don't see why not.
"I might vary it from time to time and the great thing is if you can adapt, then you've got good players on your hands."
-
Seems to suit us at the moment, we look solid and we're creating more chances. I guess it's just a case of being flexible and fluid as we develop as a team.
-
...
We have 3 really good centre backs in Baker, Clark and Vlaar too, all can play a little, and all are damned good defenders, so together I can see them really clicking. Maybe need another one in as backup still, although the joy of it is that the 3rd centre half does not have to be massive so Herd works there well as he is a good footballer.
...
The advantage of having Herd in there - and Clark for that matter - is that if we are getting tatered down the flanks either of them can be pushed forward into midfield mid-match to switch to 4-3-3/4-2-3-1