Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: claretandbeer on November 28, 2012, 05:33:53 PM
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His strongest area is his passing.He keeps possession well when not under pressure,short simple passes,mainly square and back.He can play probing chipped passes into the opposition's area but they aren't easy for a forward to find time to control them.
Similarly,his main creative pass is a long aerial diagonal one which again is not easy to either control or lay off accurately and also gives the defence time to readjust.
He produces,too infrequently,the defence splitting pass along the floor and ,likewise ,a ball played inside the fullback,a trademark of Westwood and Ireland.His lack of pace means that he hardly ever plays a wall pass or one-two to get round opponents and also means that he does not dribble past players.However,when pressurised,his passing becomes inaccurate or he can be easily dispossessed because of poor physical strength.
Let's look at what he can't or doesn't do.
His tackling is non existent,in fact I would say he hides from it,witness his shirking of 2 tackles v Arsenal where he opted to hit the ball against his opponent in situations where he was favourite to win the ball.
Defending ,weak again,watch how he does not track opponent's runs,how he remains 4-5 yards away from players and not pressing the ball as an aggressive midfielder should.
Likewise,his screening of our defence is poor and does not intercept enough passes.
Attacking,does not provide forward runs to give an attacking dimension to the side.Scoring,one I believe,a penalty.In fact,he rarely threatens the goal,mainly because he does not venture enough into the box and is striking from a free kick or distance has been ineffective,so far.
So,non tackling,non scoring ,non dribbling midfielder who does not control the game nor provide many assists for goals ? What is he doing in the team ?
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I'm in two minds about him now.
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His strongest area is, in fact, keeping possession under pressure. His passing is at its best generally when it is switching the play up. He does not shirk tackles, he's just not particularly good at them, but he's imaginative and does work hard. He also does a lot of very good blocking work in our penalty area. At his best, he's able to make space for himself with dribbling in the middle third and work the ball into space well. His shots are mostly accurate though often not really powerful enough. He plays one-twos all the time.
Your criticisms would be valid if yesterday's shocker from him was how he plays every match. But it isn't.
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He lives at 29 Acacia Road and is a schoolboy who leads an amazing double life. That's what he does.
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I thought he had an off night last night but recently has looked good, he can pass he reads the game well and obviously he can't tackle to well but he will close down and annoy the attacking team
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I thought he had an off night last night but recently has looked good, he can pass he reads the game well and obviously he can't tackle to well but he will close down and annoy the attacking team
Agreed
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I thought he had an off night last night but recently has looked good, he can pass he reads the game well and obviously he can't tackle to well but he will close down and annoy the attacking team
He's certainly progressing and I hope he lives up to his potential. If he has a real fault it's probably trying to do too much too soon. He wants to take responsibility for everything which is a good sign but he lacks the experience. I'd certainly take him off free kicks and corners though.
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I thought he was much better second half, and created complete panic in their box with 4 corners on the night, really good whipped balls.
I also think people should notice how many times it is Bannan cutting it out, tracking a run or making a block just inside our box. He reads it terrifically well.
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Certainly did have an off night last night, him being our "creative" midfielder and all that. I thought he improved with the introduction of Ireland. Admittedly my mind was elsewhere, but the bloke sat nearby me did scream "get Albright on on"......very nearly got punched!
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There are other senior players in the squad that need this thread not a young player doing his best. I may add I would love another gem next to Tim Westwood but until January Bazza is doing OK. What about what does Richard Tonne do for 50G a week...
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There are other senior players in the squad that need this thread not a young player doing his best. I may add I would love another gem next to Tim Westwood but until January Bazza is doing OK. What about what does Richard Tonne do for 50G a week...
I wouldn't pay him 50 Cents.
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You can't fault his effort. If he can stop trying the passes with the outside of the boot, which he should keep for the beach/park, also get a bit more bottle in his tackling, he could be a great player in a couple of years. He was looking at the bench to see if he was getting subbed and you could see that he genuinely wants to play.
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Was he? Aww, bless.
When he was younger he used to go in my mate's snooker club and say how much easier it would be to make it if he was a foot taller.
I've been willing him to make it since then really.
And then there's the things his mom used to shout out during reserve games - heart-warming and funny stuff. She used to get into a right tizzy when he went down injured.
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I thought he had an off night last night but recently has looked good, he can pass he reads the game well and obviously he can't tackle to well but he will close down and annoy the attacking team
I'd certainly take him off free kicks and corners though.
Really? He appears to be just about the only player in our squad capable of whipping a ball in with pace rather than just lofting it in (Albrighton) so it's easy for the defence to clear. He wasn't great yesterday but I thought his set pieces were dangerous more often than not.
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Gave the ball away in 3 dangerous positions in the first half alone.....saying that, we look better with hin in the side...
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I like the fact he's knuckled down and is prepared to graft, because with those good habits in place and another dozen games under his belt I think we'll start to see him show the full range of his talents.
Probably the player I want to succeed more than any other.
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He can't take a corner,but the defensive work he has been putting him means I overlook his bad passing,for now.
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He never hides i'll give him that but Ireland is better value,Westwood has come on and now looks comfortable, after January Barry will get fewer opportunities as it must be the one area we will strengthen.
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I appreciate how Lambert & co have got BB playing much better this season; he has made good progress. I'm confident that we'll continue to see that. The time to evaluate whether he really is an EPL player is toward the end of the season (and that is not a sly reference to possible relegation!).
Last season, I thought he was not going to make the top-flight grade - partially because of his physique and partly attitude. The latter has improved and his ability may be enough to counteract the disavantage of the former.
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A few points to address here. First,Dunne is an irrelevance,he's not played this season.
Back to Bannan. Full range of talents? What talents ?
If he was so good at dribbling,passing and in possession of an accurate shot as others have claimed,then why is he not playing in an attacking midfield role behind Benetke where Ireland,KEA and Holman have played ?
As for tracking back ,his inability to do this,leaving his full back isolated persuaded Houllier and TSM from continuing him in a wide role where Scotland played him.A position where he could deliver fast dipping crosses.Lack of pace and hence dribbling ability also meant he could not succeed here.
So ,we select him as a holding midfielder where his weaknesses are even more apparent.My judgement formed over the last 2 seasons and more is that he doesn't track opponents,watching the ball but not a player making a run and does not close down players allowing them to make easy forward passes.
He's been part of a struggling team for more than 2 seasons and I think that he 's one of the problems not one of the solutions.
It would be great,honestly,to be proved wrong as I want Villa players to succeed ,but having watched him over time ,I can't see a Xavi or Pirlo emerging.
Ironically,my first viewing of Bannan was in a Youth League final v Citeh where he was sensational. But you don't get that time and space at the top
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[quotoue author=Montbert link=topic=48424.msg2186754#msg2186754 date=1354124428]
Your criticisms would be valid if yesterday's shocker from him was how he plays every match. But it isn't.
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This is just it. He has a couple of good games and it's he's improving and looking good. He throws in an ineffective perfomance like last night and then it's he's not good enough.
Last night was a classic example. In the second half he gave the ball away or ran into one of their players (i forget which) and the chap behind me went beserk. A minute or two later he laid a superb ball out to the flank and the chap behind me did'nt say a word. I'm not sure what people are expecting sometimes, he's not Ineista or Cowans. Him and Ireland make the midfield look better when they play and they're definatley an improvement than when KEA and Delph are in there.
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claretandbeer: you don't rate him - I get it. No need for an essay everytime you say it.
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[quotoue author=Montbert link=topic=48424.msg2186754#msg2186754 date=1354124428]
Your criticisms would be valid if yesterday's shocker from him was how he plays every match. But it isn't.
This is just it. He has a couple of good games and it's he's improving and looking good. He throws in an ineffective perfomance like last night and then it's he's not good enough.
Last night was a classic example. In the second half he gave the ball away or ran into one of their players (i forget which) and the chap behind me went beserk. A minute or two later he laid a superb ball out to the flank and the chap behind me did'nt say a word. I'm not sure what people are expecting sometimes, he's not Ineista or Cowans. Him and Ireland make the midfield look better when they play and they're definatley an improvement than when KEA and Delph are in there.
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I actually think he feeds off Ireland well, they look like they've got a rapport with each other, the kind that with more games together could make us tick.
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claretandbeer: you don't rate him - I get it. No need for an essay everytime you say it.
Why say one word when you can say a thousand.
I've had to check in the kitchen to make sure it's not my missus posting.
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I can't believe people are saying take him off corners and free kicks. He sent in some proper wicked corners last night. He is also on penalty duties at the moment and righty so I would say.
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Any player who is willing to run for 90 minutes is worth encouraging.
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I can't believe people are saying take him off corners and free kicks. He sent in some proper wicked corners last night.
Just a quick look back over our recent games and how many corners we've had:
Reading: 8
Arsenal: 7
Man City: 4
Man Utd: 5
Sunderland: 7
Can you honestly say we're making them count? Half of them don't get past the the first man.
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I wonder what peoples lives are really like when Bannan one of our better players gets a post like this, and the other day it was Lambert out....WTF.
I really wonder how shit their lives must be...
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I can't believe people are saying take him off corners and free kicks. He sent in some proper wicked corners last night.
Just a quick look back over our recent games and how many corners we've had:
Reading: 8
Arsenal: 7
Man City: 4
Man Utd: 5
Sunderland: 7
Can you honestly say we're making them count? Half of them don't get past the the first man.
With a bit more luck we could have scored at least three from them last night.
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I don't rate him at all & never have done
one footed, useless in the air the odd reasonable pass amongst plenty of poor ones
I'm no fan of Ireland, but he's much better than little Bannan
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Didn't he get motm on Saturday as well?
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I don't rate him at all & never have done
one footed, useless in the air the odd reasonable pass amongst plenty of poor ones
I'm no fan of Ireland, but he's much better than little Bannan
Despite attempting far more difficult passes than Westwood, Bannan has a pass accuracy of just under 80% for the season - Westwood has 85% but has barely put a cross in and does not attempt key passes as a rule.
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I can't believe people are saying take him off corners and free kicks. He sent in some proper wicked corners last night.
Just a quick look back over our recent games and how many corners we've had:
Reading: 8
Arsenal: 7
Man City: 4
Man Utd: 5
Sunderland: 7
Can you honestly say we're making them count? Half of them don't get past the the first man.
With a bit more luck we could have scored at least three from them last night.
True but overall most have been poor. If his corners like his game keep improving, you'll have no complaints from me.
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I can't believe people are saying take him off corners and free kicks. He sent in some proper wicked corners last night.
Just a quick look back over our recent games and how many corners we've had:
Reading: 8
Arsenal: 7
Man City: 4
Man Utd: 5
Sunderland: 7
Can you honestly say we're making them count? Half of them don't get past the the first man.
With a bit more luck we could have scored at least three from them last night.
True but overall most have been poor. If his corners like his game keep improving, you'll have no complaints from me.
With the run of games he is getting then I can only see him improving with the confidence he must be gaining.
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I'm undecided regarding Bannan. He has a lot of ability with the ball but seems to apply it very inconsistently. I've not been impressed with the way he dominates the free kick and corner taking, although Westwood is now taking some. His delivery on those has generally been poor for me, although it has started to improve a little as he seems to be trying to whip them in a bit more. It's a shame he doesn't have a bit more pace to compensate for his lack of physical presence. A decent enough player who has the potential to get better, perhaps once he's more sure of his standing in the team.
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About 110mph whilst under the influence on the M1.
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About 110mph whilst under the influence on the M1.
Then he legs it!
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What pisses me off about him is the 'apparent' billy big bollox attitude. I am sick of him waving his arms and giving bollockings to other players when they don't anticipate his wayward passing. All this when often giving the ball away in dangerous positions and putting us under serious pressure. He did both of these things a few times last night.
Just play your fucking game Bannan.
Stop bollocking other players.
Stop giving the ball away.
Learn to cross.
Do these, and with your obvious talent, you just might be ok.
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Can't say I'm a fan of him.
A lot of that is down to off the pitch as seen him in coral bookies by the yenton a couple of times and obviously the drinking issues.
I'm not saying he has to live like a monk but the penny needs to drop like it did for Gareth Barry all those years ago.
On the pitch, he's what I'd call a continuity midfield, someone who's neither defensive nor attacking but keeps attacks going by moving the ball quickly and not losing it.
Trouble is he constantly does these stupid long balls that just go to the opposition. I think Westwood is better at that side of the game and I'd also have Ireland over him every time aswell.
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His tackling is non existent
Did pull off one cracking tackle in the first half last night.
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He can't take a corner
Thought he took a few good ones last night. A couple of bad ones true, but one particular one in the second half was very frustrating because it seemed to go past about 3 Villa players as it curved in to the goal and it seemed one of them only needed to stick their foot out and it would have been a goal
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About 110mph whilst under the influence on the M1.
Then he legs it!
And gets barred from the Belfry Golf course for ignoring Greenkeepers requests not to drive his buggy onto the tees.
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Last night was a classic example. In the second half he gave the ball away or ran into one of their players (i forget which) and the chap behind me went beserk. A minute or two later he laid a superb ball out to the flank and the chap behind me did'nt say a word.
I've seen (or heard) this done so many times at Villa Park (not just to Bannan) it's not funny.
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It seems we have been having this conversation about Bannan for the past two seasons now and as far as I can see, he hasn't really made any significant improvement since he first came into the side. If Westwood is going to play, we need a physical presence alongside him who can be a real driving force. Bannan isn't that type of player and from what I have seen of him over the past two years, I just can't see him being the type of player who is going to take us forward.
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This thread is funny. Not because people have ridiculous opinions on the chap (I'm undecided. I did like the way the bloke on Sky mimicked his LucozadeSportLite guzzling mid-sentence when being interviewed after the game last night) but just humorous in general. I doubt you get this level of repartee on the "What does lipgloss do?" thread on the Cosmopolitan forum.
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My opinion is we are a much better team when he plays. Bannan and Westwood have the makings of a fantastic midfield pairing. He is much better defensively than he is given credit for and often nicks the ball away on the edge of our own area.
Bit of a lovable rogue off the pitch. The only player you are likely to see at a reserve game who actually knows and chats to the supporters.
Percy said he was the best player he had ever seen in the reserves. I will agree with him. Anyone who has followed the junior teams will have seen him do amazing things and do very well against people like Jack Wilshire and the like.
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He has undoubted talent and has won MOTM awards at both youth, Full team and even international level.
My only concern is that he thinks he is better than he actually is. He will attempt the 10% pass when it could easily have been a 90% pass. When he does the simple things with Westwood then i think they look very good indeed at keeping the ball flowing and in our possession
I think PL keeping tight reigns on him will help and i think Westwood will be a star in the making
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I think he's played better than he ever has done for the first team this season and as results (hopefully) improve he'll get even better
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Percy said he was the best player he had ever seen in the reserves. I will agree with him.
Shades of Stephen Cooke, Noel.
Everybody used to rave about him but I just couldn't see it.
Personally I don't think he's good enough for the top flight, hope i'm wrong though.
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The one player on the pitch until Ireland came on who is looking to create. If Weimann and benteke weren't on their heels on two ocassions then Bannan would have two assists against his name against Reading. Yes he made some passes which were astray and yes he made mistakes but come on the kid works his nuts off every game and is only 22. His good points far outweigh his bad. Maybe Bannan will become another kid who's come through the ranks like Hendrie/Barry/Samuel/Vassell who the boo boys will use as their scapegoat when things aren't going well. The one good thing about having McMinge in the dugout last year was the youngsters were left alone as he was the focal point of the anger. A Villa side with the average age of 23 is going to be littered with mistakes. These kids will learn from their mistakes. I suggest they get the backing from the fans not barracking which makes them scared to try something outside of a square 10yrd pass.
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He thinks he's David Beckham.
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I don't think Bannan's got the mentality for this level, certainly not to overcome his physical stature. His too inconsistent. When it's not going right his decision making becomes poor. He'll pick the wrong passes, rush, or he'll get caught dawdling on the ball. He made that early error against Reading and from then on his game just seemed to go to pot. The first thing he tried after that error was one of his Hollywood balls which was just not on. He starts getting a little snipey too if things aren't going his way.
If Bannan plays like he did against Arsenal then he's an asset. Not a brilliant asset but good. The trouble is, he doesn't do it every week, or even most weeks. I also find he seriously underwhelms against what you could call the lesser opposition. The sort of games where his quality could possibly stand out and he doesn't show it.
At his age, we need far more. He needs to work on his focus. Keep level headed when things are going very well, or not so well. Westwood, so far, is great example of this. His game stays consistent no matter what.
For me, he's not going to make the grade.
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I think he just needs to go back to basics.
He tries these 'impressive' hollywood diagonal chip passes that always hit the surface and go nowhere.
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I think he just needs to go back to basics.
He tries these 'impressive' hollywood diagonal chip passes that always hit the surface and go nowhere.
Yeah no doubt PL and his staff will be having a word with Barry about this but we don't want to take the creativity completely out of his game, it's all about finding a balance.
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I think he just needs to go back to basics.
He tries these 'impressive' hollywood diagonal chip passes that always hit the surface and go nowhere.
Yeah no doubt PL and his staff will be having a word with Barry about this but we don't want to take the creativity completely out of his game, it's all about finding a balance.
You've got to hold or give, but do it at the right time.
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Difficult to work this thread out. He's been fantastic recently and had a poor game on Tuesday night. I don't think it really helps that we weren't quite playing our usual passing game against Reading and seemed to be doing a lot more lumping up to Benteke.
As for his corners/crossing etc.... He's pretty clearly been told to float it onto Bentekes head. If you've ever seen him cross a ball properly, you'd know that his delivery is excellent.
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It would probably help Bannan no end too if he had an experienced midfielder in there with him (as it would the other players too). We do miss Stan a lot in that regard, someone who can compose those around him. Trouble right now is, that Bannan is almost one of the senior statesmen of our side. He's one of the most experienced in our squad. He needs someone to pull him aside when it can be done and just to calm him down a bit when his composure goes.
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The one player on the pitch until Ireland came on who is looking to create. If Weimann and benteke weren't on their heels on two ocassions then Bannan would have two assists against his name against Reading. Yes he made some passes which were astray and yes he made mistakes but come on the kid works his nuts off every game and is only 22. His good points far outweigh his bad. Maybe Bannan will become another kid who's come through the ranks like Hendrie/Barry/Samuel/Vassell who the boo boys will use as their scapegoat when things aren't going well. The one good thing about having McMinge in the dugout last year was the youngsters were left alone as he was the focal point of the anger. A Villa side with the average age of 23 is going to be littered with mistakes. These kids will learn from their mistakes. I suggest they get the backing from the fans not barracking which makes them scared to try something outside of a square 10yrd pass.
100% clappy thing mate - spot on
we cannot lose sight of the fact that a lot of aspects of the game
Seeing out the final few minutes
Confidence
Holding on under pressure
Will come with experience and more so support
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I think he's played better than he ever has done for the first team this season and as results (hopefully) improve he'll get even better
I agree.
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The one player on the pitch until Ireland came on who is looking to create. If Weimann and benteke weren't on their heels on two ocassions then Bannan would have two assists against his name against Reading. Yes he made some passes which were astray and yes he made mistakes but come on the kid works his nuts off every game and is only 22. His good points far outweigh his bad. Maybe Bannan will become another kid who's come through the ranks like Hendrie/Barry/Samuel/Vassell who the boo boys will use as their scapegoat when things aren't going well. The one good thing about having McMinge in the dugout last year was the youngsters were left alone as he was the focal point of the anger. A Villa side with the average age of 23 is going to be littered with mistakes. These kids will learn from their mistakes. I suggest they get the backing from the fans not barracking which makes them scared to try something outside of a square 10yrd pass.
100% clappy thing mate - spot on
we cannot lose sight of the fact that a lot of aspects of the game
Seeing out the final few minutes
Confidence
Holding on under pressure
Will come with experience and more so support
Very much agreed.
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I think his corners looked threatening on Tuesday every time. Maybe his game does need him to go back to basics as has been pointed out, but I think him and Ireland are essential at the moment as they are our only creative players.
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The biggest problem I have with Bannan is how many times the word 'Hollywood' is used every time he is discussed, fucks me right of, lazy posting
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The biggest problem I have with Bannan is how many times the word 'Hollywood' is used every time he is discussed, fucks me right of, lazy posting
They could sum things up in a simple, easy manner, but instead they go for the 'Hollywood' statement.
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^^^^ Brilliant.
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The biggest problem I have with Bannan is how many times the word 'Hollywood' is used every time he is discussed, fucks me right of, lazy posting
Exactly.
He's more Pebble Mill
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He loves Birmingham you know.
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I'm not totally convinced by him although I am more impressed with him in recent weeks, this is the season he needs to grasp the nettle and cement his place in the side - he is certainly showing signs of getting there which is more than can be said for albrighton.
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My opinion is we are a much better team when he plays. Bannan and Westwood have the makings of a fantastic midfield pairing. He is much better defensively than he is given credit for and often nicks the ball away on the edge of our own area.
What I love about him is when he picks up the ball at the edge of our box, he'll play a tidy one-two and try and build something. His calmness and confidence is first rate.
Will he make it? The jury is still out for me but I think Lambert is the perfect manager for him, somebody he admires, will listen to and seemingly has confidence in him. His height is no longer an issue, it's more about his attitude and determination to keep working on his game. Once he feels he really belongs in the first team I think we'll seen him relax a little and really develop into the player we all want him to be.
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The biggest problem I have with Bannan is how many times the word 'Hollywood' is used every time he is discussed, fucks me right of, lazy posting
Find a better word and I'll edit my post, ma lord.
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The biggest problem I have with Bannan is how many times the word 'Hollywood' is used every time he is discussed, fucks me right of, lazy posting
Find a better word and I'll edit my post, ma lord.
Beverly Hills?
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B-B-B-Bazza - What does he -Do?
C-C-C-Can't tackle- Short-arsed too.
Tries his best-gives his all
Great crosser-good on the ball
Is he good enough some say he's pants
he's only a babby-give him him a chance.
:'(
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I like him but dont like his hollywood passes
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Perhaps Wythall would be better? It's near Hollywood.
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Percy said he was the best player he had ever seen in the reserves. I will agree with him. Anyone who has followed the junior teams will have seen him do amazing things and do very well against people like Jack Wilshire and the like.
I like what I have seen recently, him and westwood really try to dictate the play and Ireland links well ahead of them. Personally I think he's cut out a lot of the Hollywood passes and look forward for these "amazing things" to start happening soon. Understandably I think he's concentrated on winning the trust of the manager and players but once that's done and we're winning a few more I hope he'll let loose a bit more*.
* Yes I'm always an optimist.
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I'm in Orlando at the moment, and going to Hollywood Studios tomorrow, might take a bit of spray paint and re name it
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Is it just me or has Bazza gone and done a Rooney? His lustrous mane seems thicker and fuller than previous years. I wonder whether the lads gone and had a syrup. His hair seem like it was thinning a little a year or two back. I reckon he could have hidden away in the summer after some patch work.
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Last night was a classic example. In the second half he gave the ball away or ran into one of their players (i forget which) and the chap behind me went beserk. A minute or two later he laid a superb ball out to the flank and the chap behind me did'nt say a word.
I've seen (or heard) this done so many times at Villa Park (not just to Bannan) it's not funny.
Yes, and what the detractors miss are the interceptions and break-up play that both BB and Westwood do.
Petrov used to get the same criticism - "square-ball passing", "doesn't put his foot in", etc - when the reality is that their game is different; they do other things well that benefit the team.
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I agree. Bannan gets far more frustrating groans for standing back from a 50/50 than say herd does from repeatedly giving the ball away. He does need to improve in some respects there, but frankly I'm quite enjoying watching two 22 year olds with the composure to get the ball down, give it an get it back, and pick a good forward pass on a number of occasions each per game. It sure beats the anti football we had to watch last year
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I agree. Bannan gets far more frustrating groans for standing back from a 50/50 than say herd does from repeatedly giving the ball away. He does need to improve in some respects there, but frankly I'm quite enjoying watching two 22 year olds with the composure to get the ball down, give it an get it back, and pick a good forward pass on a number of occasions each per game. It sure beats the anti football we had to watch last year
Well said
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Has Bannan been tried on either side/wing or as AMC? Would probably be a bit too slow though for the wing.
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I agree. Bannan gets far more frustrating groans for standing back from a 50/50 than say herd does from repeatedly giving the ball away. He does need to improve in some respects there, but frankly I'm quite enjoying watching two 22 year olds with the composure to get the ball down, give it an get it back, and pick a good forward pass on a number of occasions each per game. It sure beats the anti football we had to watch last year
Here here.
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Last night was a classic example. In the second half he gave the ball away or ran into one of their players (i forget which) and the chap behind me went beserk. A minute or two later he laid a superb ball out to the flank and the chap behind me did'nt say a word.
I've seen (or heard) this done so many times at Villa Park (not just to Bannan) it's not funny.
Yes, and what the detractors miss are the interceptions and break-up play that both BB and Westwood do.
Petrov used to get the same criticism - "square-ball passing", "doesn't put his foot in", etc - when the reality is that their game is different; they do other things well that benefit the team.
Reminded me of this great Xabi Alonso interview in the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/nov/11/xabi-alonso-spain-england-interview) in which he talked about the differences between english and spanish football.
There is a pause as Alonso reaches, again, the crux of the issue. A single English word he returns to that, unpacked, analysed and investigated, explains much. "I don't think tackling is a quality," he says. "It is a recurso, something you have to resort to, not a characteristic of your game. At Liverpool I used to read the matchday programme and you'd read an interview with a lad from the youth team. They'd ask: age, heroes, strong points, etc. He'd reply: 'Shooting and tackling'. I can't get into my head that football development would educate tackling as a quality, something to learn, to teach, a characteristic of your play. How can that be a way of seeing the game? I just don't understand football in those terms. Tackling is a [last] resort, and you will need it, but it isn't a quality to aspire to, a definition. It's hard to change because it's so rooted in the English football culture, but I don't understand it."
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It's an interesting read but I think he's pretty much got his wish, tackling is all but gone from English football. Defenders still might have to do a bit but for a midfield player it's becoming a last resort, the days of Roy Keane crunching into everything that moved are long gone. Most teams are far more adept at keeping possession so as soon as you go to ground you're out of the game. Combined with the willingness of refs to produce a card for the first mistimed challenge means that the game has changed irrevocably.
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It's an interesting read but I think he's pretty much got his wish, tackling is all but gone from English football. Defenders still might have to do a bit but for a midfield player it's becoming a last resort, the days of Roy Keane crunching into everything that moved are long gone. Most teams are far more adept at keeping possession so as soon as you go to ground you're out of the game. Combined with the willingness of refs to produce a card for the first mistimed challenge means that the game has changed irrevocably.
I've played for years and I love a well timed crunching tackle almost as much as scoring.
But I know full well that throwing in a few 'reducers' early on is a tried and tested way of intimidating opponents and I guess when you think about it in isolation I suppose it's not really on.
Throw in the ever increasingly litigious society we live in and you can see why there's been a big push towards it.
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The thing I find frustrating with him is his desire to loft a pass. I understand it as an occasional option, but there's times when he could play a through ball along the deck and he chooses to loft it and it gets cleared. Just keep it on the floor Barry.
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The thing I find frustrating with him is his desire to loft a pass. I understand it as an occasional option, but there's times when he could play a through ball along the deck and he chooses to loft it and it gets cleared. Just keep it on the floor Barry.
I think he's pulled it in a bit, but it's something he's capable of too and with the experience he's gaining his judgement will improve.
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... Bannan gets far more frustrating groans for standing back from a 50/50 than say herd does from repeatedly giving the ball away...
Another myth: a strong-tackling game-disrupter can't possibly deliver passes. Wrong.
Last season Herd played some sublime passes as well as getting onto the end of moves for goalscoring opportunities.
It's not his key strength, but he ain't bad at it.
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... Bannan gets far more frustrating groans for standing back from a 50/50 than say herd does from repeatedly giving the ball away...
Another myth: a strong-tackling game-disrupter can't possibly deliver passes. Wrong.
Last season Herd played some sublime passes as well as getting onto the end of moves for goalscoring opportunities.
It's not his key strength, but he ain't bad at it.
Herd's passing accuracy is less than 70%, though he hasn't played centre midfield so far so its not fair to compare directly.
I like Herd but he is clearly more limited than Bannan and never gave the impression that he was completely comfortable on the ball or good under pressure.
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Herd and Bannan would play different roles. Very difficult to compare them to each other.
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Bannan is alright, as long as he doesn't keep on thinking he has the long passing ability of David Beckham. Stick to a more simpler passing game and no-one will get on his back.
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Bannan is alright, as long as he doesn't keep on thinking he has the long passing ability of David Beckham. Stick to a more simpler passing game and no-one will get on his back.
He has gotten better this season at deciding when the hit the long pass and when not to. Playing with Westwood and Ireland seems to bring best out of Bannan so Lambert should stick to those three.
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The problem with a post like this is he actually only plays 2-3 of those hopeful long passes per game, but every one of them gets remember as if he did nothing but those all game.
In answer to the original question.
What Barry Bannan does is give the the player with the ball an option. We look better when him and westwood play because the player with the ball has a choice, last year we didn't have any choice, the opposition made it for us.
The problem at Villa is too many fans are really impatient.
I haven't been this season (I've moved abroad) but for as long as I can remember there have been 2 shouts you were guaranteed to hear from at least some fans during a game:
- 'SHOOOOOOT' when a player gets it centrally about 40yards out
- 'get it forward' after 2-3 passes in midfield
It amuses me greatly that a lot of these same people complained about the shit football under TSM, whilst doing it.
A player like Bannan will divide opinion at Villa because a lot of fans seem to want a midfield full of holman's who run all day and constantly try to get it forward fast.
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I like wee Barry. He does make a few too many bad decisions, bu he's got quick feet and rarely gets caught in possession, and his passing when not trying 50 yard Zidane specials is very good. He could do with adding goals to his game though, as someone with his shooting ability should be a least be having a go more often.
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The problem with a post like this is he actually only plays 2-3 of those hopeful long passes per game, but every one of them gets remember as if he did nothing but those all game.
In answer to the original question.
What Barry Bannan does is give the the player with the ball an option. We look better when him and westwood play because the player with the ball has a choice, last year we didn't have any choice, the opposition made it for us.
The problem at Villa is too many fans are really impatient.
I haven't been this season (I've moved abroad) but for as long as I can remember there have been 2 shouts you were guaranteed to hear from at least some fans during a game:
- 'SHOOOOOOT' when a player gets it centrally about 40yards out
- 'get it forward' after 2-3 passes in midfield
It amuses me greatly that a lot of these same people complained about the shit football under TSM, whilst doing it.
A player like Bannan will divide opinion at Villa because a lot of fans seem to want a midfield full of holman's who run all day and constantly try to get it forward fast.
Most of the football fans wouldn't recognize good football even if it would hit them to the face, for example people complaining that we play as shit as last season and that Villa doesn't create chances when we clearly are trying to win the games this season and we had 5-6 very good chances against Reading to score.
Also most fans doesn't understand that if there's no room to pass forward or someone is clearly blocking line of sight to pass, you have to pass it sideways or backwards.
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What pisses me off about him is the 'apparent' billy big bollox attitude. I am sick of him waving his arms and giving bollockings to other players when they don't anticipate his wayward passing. All this when often giving the ball away in dangerous positions and putting us under serious pressure. He did both of these things a few times last night.
Just play your fucking game Bannan.
Stop bollocking other players.
Stop giving the ball away.
Learn to cross.
Do these, and with your obvious talent, you just might be ok.
Was this you then in Wikipedia? :)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/63158_10152307544015788_269679285_n.jpg)
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Bannan is actually decent at crossing. Maybe getting him a little more wide would improve his game
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Bannan is actually decent at crossing. Maybe getting him a little more wide would improve his game
His corners on Tuesday were superb and inviting but then we finally scored with a corner from Westwood!
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Bannan is actually decent at crossing. Maybe getting him a little more wide would improve his game
There was something I read earlier in the season that said only Leighton Baines has made more accurate crosses in the league this season.
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I never really rated Bannan until this season ! I've watched more or less every minute this season and behind Guzan I reckon he's been player of the season. That probably says more about where we are than where we want to be.
As a central midfielder he wins the ball (ok he doesn't tackle but thats now outlawed) an he distributes it well. We could definately do with a bit more creativity and goals but there lies the problem ..,
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As a central midfielder he wins the ball (ok he doesn't tackle but thats now outlawed) an he distributes it well. We could definately do with a bit more creativity and goals but there lies the problem ..,
Bannan and Westwood have been excellent base from which villa can play. I think the creativity i.e. making the final assist or key dribble is the responsibility of the three players in front of them. Gabby, Weimann, Holman and to a lesser extent Ireland are good athletes but not great creators.
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If he cut out the 'Hollywood' passes, we'd never see another like that amazing one at Fulham, where Albrighton took it down and scored. That was a fantastic goal.
Wee Bazza will always get stick. It's obvious that some people have written him off and will jump on his every mistake, whilst some other players get a much easier ride.
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Got to be honest Bannan frustrates the hell out of me. Good technically but chooses the wrong option too many times. Hopefully that will come with experience. Admire the fact he never hides though and always wants the ball.
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I have moved him into my Fantasy League team for today so he had better produce something!!
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His hollywood passes have lessened in number under Lambert. Much more disciplined and a much better player because of it.
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His hollywood passes have lessened in number under Lambert. Much more disciplined and a much better player because of it.
He couldn't pass water.
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Seriously, your idea of passing a football must be very different to mine. Come on, explain the term pass to me please?
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Seriously, your idea of passing a football must be very different to mine. Come on, explain the term pass to me please?
A pass from one player that actually reaches a team mate. Bannan likes to pass it to an opposition player. Very occasionally he reaches his a team mate though. How Bannan is still a first team player is beyond me. It's probably because Lerner has pulled the plug on real investment.
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So now you're saying 80/90 times out of hundred is very occasionally. Okay then.
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So now you're saying 80/90 times out of hundred is very occasionally. Okay then.
Lies, damn lies and statistics.
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So now you're saying 80/90 times out of hundred is very occasionally. Okay then.
I like Bannan, but I find it hard to believe his pass completion rate is that high, purely because of the type of player he is - look for the pass to open things up, rather than the "knock it five yards sideways" NRC type.
As a result his completion stats are bound to suffer.
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Those pass rate stats are nonsense anyway. Make 4 easy sideways and backward passes under no pressure and complete them, then make a ridiculous "Hollywood" pass and needlessly give the ball away in a dangerous area and you've got a ridiculously high pass rate.
Then people use them to back up an argument on forums like this. As I said, nonsense.
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Seriously, your idea of passing a football must be very different to mine. Come on, explain the term pass to me please?
A pass from one player that actually reaches a team mate. Bannan likes to pass it to an opposition player. Very occasionally he reaches his a team mate though. How Bannan is still a first team player is beyond me. It's probably because Lerner has pulled the plug on real investment.
Apart from the 23 million spent in the summer being ignored.
How is it nonsense that by very definition 90% of the time the ball leaves their foot it reaches a team mate?
Nonsense is here somewhere for certain.
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Seriously, your idea of passing a football must be very different to mine. Come on, explain the term pass to me please?
A pass from one player that actually reaches a team mate. Bannan likes to pass it to an opposition player. Very occasionally he reaches his a team mate though. How Bannan is still a first team player is beyond me. It's probably because Lerner has pulled the plug on real investment.
Apart from the 23 million spent in the summer being ignored.
How is it nonsense that by very definition 90% of the time the ball leaves their foot it reaches a team mate?
Nonsense is here somewhere for certain.
Ozz, come on, you need to learn the narrative. Every time Bannan gives the ball away, it is directly Lerner's fault.
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The stats don't prove who is a good player and who isn't. But they do prove fairly conclusively whether someone continuously gives the ball away. Neither Westwood or Bannan do.
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Seriously, your idea of passing a football must be very different to mine. Come on, explain the term pass to me please?
A pass from one player that actually reaches a team mate. Bannan likes to pass it to an opposition player. Very occasionally he reaches his a team mate though. How Bannan is still a first team player is beyond me. It's probably because Lerner has pulled the plug on real investment.
Apart from the 23 million spent in the summer being ignored.
How is it nonsense that by very definition 90% of the time the ball leaves their foot it reaches a team mate?
Nonsense is here somewhere for certain.
£23m spread thinly on lower league players because Randy wont pay the wages for real Premier League quality. That's why we're in the shit.
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So now you're saying 80/90 times out of hundred is very occasionally. Okay then.
I like Bannan, but I find it hard to believe his pass completion rate is that high, purely because of the type of player he is - look for the pass to open things up, rather than the "knock it five yards sideways" NRC type.
As a result his completion stats are bound to suffer.
You make a good point there. I think it's indicative that his pass completion rate has gone up - he plays more safe passes and tries to pick his moments more. He's still learning about the subtler points of the game, but there's no question he's got better.
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Seriously, your idea of passing a football must be very different to mine. Come on, explain the term pass to me please?
A pass from one player that actually reaches a team mate. Bannan likes to pass it to an opposition player. Very occasionally he reaches his a team mate though. How Bannan is still a first team player is beyond me. It's probably because Lerner has pulled the plug on real investment.
Apart from the 23 million spent in the summer being ignored.
How is it nonsense that by very definition 90% of the time the ball leaves their foot it reaches a team mate?
Nonsense is here somewhere for certain.
£23m spread thinly on lower league players because Randy wont pay the wages for real Premier League quality. That's why we're in the shit.
Randy won't, or the club cannot afford to keep paying huge wages on shit and have it as nearly 90% of turnover?
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The stats don't prove who is a good player and who isn't. But they do prove fairly conclusively whether someone continuously gives the ball away. Neither Westwood or Bannan do.
But base your opinion on a player on stats alone doesn't give you the full story. I'm sure you know that deep down.
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Seriously, your idea of passing a football must be very different to mine. Come on, explain the term pass to me please?
A pass from one player that actually reaches a team mate. Bannan likes to pass it to an opposition player. Very occasionally he reaches his a team mate though. How Bannan is still a first team player is beyond me. It's probably because Lerner has pulled the plug on real investment.
Apart from the 23 million spent in the summer being ignored.
How is it nonsense that by very definition 90% of the time the ball leaves their foot it reaches a team mate?
Nonsense is here somewhere for certain.
£23m spread thinly on lower league players because Randy wont pay the wages for real Premier League quality. That's why we're in the shit.
Randy won't, or the club cannot afford to keep paying huge wages on shit and have it as nearly 90% of turnover?
And if we think finances are bad now, lets hope we're not relegated because that's when the financial shit hits the fan. A false economy if ever there was one.
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Seriously, your idea of passing a football must be very different to mine. Come on, explain the term pass to me please?
A pass from one player that actually reaches a team mate. Bannan likes to pass it to an opposition player. Very occasionally he reaches his a team mate though. How Bannan is still a first team player is beyond me. It's probably because Lerner has pulled the plug on real investment.
Apart from the 23 million spent in the summer being ignored.
How is it nonsense that by very definition 90% of the time the ball leaves their foot it reaches a team mate?
Nonsense is here somewhere for certain.
Ozz, come on, you need to learn the narrative. Every time Bannan gives the ball away, it is directly Lerner's fault.
Monbert, I remember having a discussion with you in pre season when I claimed the team wasn't good enough and we were heading for a relegation battle. You argued that everything was sweetness and light at Villa Park.
Hate to say I told you so.....
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Seriously, your idea of passing a football must be very different to mine. Come on, explain the term pass to me please?
A pass from one player that actually reaches a team mate. Bannan likes to pass it to an opposition player. Very occasionally he reaches his a team mate though. How Bannan is still a first team player is beyond me. It's probably because Lerner has pulled the plug on real investment.
Apart from the 23 million spent in the summer being ignored.
How is it nonsense that by very definition 90% of the time the ball leaves their foot it reaches a team mate?
Nonsense is here somewhere for certain.
Ozz, come on, you need to learn the narrative. Every time Bannan gives the ball away, it is directly Lerner's fault.
Monbert, I remember having a discussion with you in pre season when I claimed the team wasn't good enough and we were heading for a relegation battle. You argued that everything was sweetness and light at Villa Park.
Hate to say I told you so.....
I believe sweetness and light were the exact words I used. I also talked about rainbows, fairies, and how lovable pug puppies are, and babies' laughter is more delightful than a honey sandwich.
Alternatively, I probably said we have the nucleus of a good squad and I was optimistic. I still am, incidentally, because the football is coming together at times in ways we haven't seen at VP in a while. It will be tough for a while, it's quite an experiment, but the wrist-slashing misery some people engage in here is reminiscent of a seven year old crying because dinner will be an hour later than usual.
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The stats don't prove who is a good player and who isn't. But they do prove fairly conclusively whether someone continuously gives the ball away. Neither Westwood or Bannan do.
But base your opinion on a player on stats alone doesn't give you the full story. I'm sure you know that deep down.
No but you get a fair idea how often they waste possession. If they attempt x passes, and are successful 90% of the time, you know full well that making statements like they can't pass are near on idiotic. Thus, pretty much everything that comes out of your mouth once arguing that becomes de-valued on account people remember that your main argument centres on how poor we are at passing, citing our best passers of the ball as evidence.
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BB played okay yesterday. I'm still not entirely convinced on his consistency though I do feel in terms of midfield cohesion, he and Westwood play together better than any other combination of mids we have tried thus far. His passing was decent enough yesterday. He didn't give much away. If I compare him to Westwood though, I think Westy's decision making is far better, as is his level headedness. If he makes an error he won't dwell or try too hard to atone with passes that aren't on. Likewise he'll pick and choose when to ping a Hollywood better.
But in that regard, Barry is getting better this season. Given his footballing ability though, we need to see him creating more chances and being more incisive in the final third. I don't think we need him dropping deep in his own half and hitting fancy diagonals. Westwood is excellent at being available along the centre circle and shifting and moving the ball. Bannan needs to instigate some play, further up field IMO. Until he starts stamping more authority on games, he'll struggle to consistently make it at this level.
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BB played okay yesterday. I'm still not entirely convinced on his consistency though I do feel in terms of midfield cohesion, he and Westwood play together better than any other combination of mids we have tried thus far. His passing was decent enough yesterday. He didn't give much away. If I compare him to Westwood though, I think Westy's decision making is far better, as is his level headedness. If he makes an error he won't dwell or try too hard to atone with passes that aren't on. Likewise he'll pick and choose when to ping a Hollywood better.
But in that regard, Barry is getting better this season. Given his footballing ability though, we need to see him creating more chances and being more incisive in the final third. I don't think we need him dropping deep in his own half and hitting fancy diagonals. Westwood is excellent at being available along the centre circle and shifting and moving the ball. Bannan needs to instigate some play, further up field IMO. Until he starts stamping more authority on games, he'll struggle to consistently make it at this level.
Agree with all of that ST.
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The stats don't prove who is a good player and who isn't. But they do prove fairly conclusively whether someone continuously gives the ball away. Neither Westwood or Bannan do.
But base your opinion on a player on stats alone doesn't give you the full story. I'm sure you know that deep down.
I don't know it 'deep down'. That's exactly in line with what I said! But I repeat that stats do disprove your assertion that Bannan continuously gives the ball away.
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Seriously, your idea of passing a football must be very different to mine. Come on, explain the term pass to me please?
A pass from one player that actually reaches a team mate. Bannan likes to pass it to an opposition player. Very occasionally he reaches his a team mate though. How Bannan is still a first team player is beyond me. It's probably because Lerner has pulled the plug on real investment.
There's many, many things that appear beyond you at the moment.
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Wee Baz is brilliant as Jessie Pinkman in Breaking Bad.
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Seriously, your idea of passing a football must be very different to mine. Come on, explain the term pass to me please?
A pass from one player that actually reaches a team mate. Bannan likes to pass it to an opposition player. Very occasionally he reaches his a team mate though. How Bannan is still a first team player is beyond me. It's probably because Lerner has pulled the plug on real investment.
Apart from the 23 million spent in the summer being ignored.
How is it nonsense that by very definition 90% of the time the ball leaves their foot it reaches a team mate?
Nonsense is here somewhere for certain.
Ozz, come on, you need to learn the narrative. Every time Bannan gives the ball away, it is directly Lerner's fault.
Monbert, I remember having a discussion with you in pre season when I claimed the team wasn't good enough and we were heading for a relegation battle. You argued that everything was sweetness and light at Villa Park.
Hate to say I told you so.....
It's December, bit early to be waving the "told you so" banner.
If we're picking out old posts, I remember you having a pop at me on several occasions because "I never had a good word to say about the club".
Crikey, how times have changed.
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SH decided some time back that Lerner's strategy this season was all wrong. A squad full of kids, wrong. Signing unheard of players, wrong. Selling players who want to leave, wrong. Not signing big name mercenaries, wrong. Building a squad based on youthful hungry players happy to play for the club, wrong. There's probably more reasons as well.
This is my supposition and maybe not Lerner's strategy at all. But whatever it is I'm happier that we are actually trying something different and I'd say the majority of fans back what is trying to be achieved by the club even though we may be in for a bumpy ride. We will have a stronger base in seasons to come going this route ( The Ajax model maybe) and it's far more fun than watching some journey men players (experience) going through the motions keeping us middle of the league.
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SH decided some time back that Lerner's strategy this season was all wrong. A squad full of kids, wrong. Signing unheard of players, wrong. Selling players who want to leave, wrong. Not signing big name mercenaries, wrong. Building a squad based on youthful hungry players happy to play for the club, wrong. There's probably more reasons as well.
This is my supposition and maybe not Lerner's strategy at all. But whatever it is I'm happier that we are actually trying something different and I'd say the majority of fans back what is trying to be achieved by the club even though we may be in for a bumpy ride. We will have a stronger base in seasons to come going this route ( The Ajax model maybe) and it's far more fun than watching some journey men players (experience) going through the motions keeping us middle of the league.
Well said, brother.
I've enjoyed the journey this season so far (despite the frustrations) and think that we will progress to a point where we can enjoy April and May!
... and maybe some of March (which we haven't done for several seasons).
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Seriously, your idea of passing a football must be very different to mine. Come on, explain the term pass to me please?
A pass from one player that actually reaches a team mate. Bannan likes to pass it to an opposition player. Very occasionally he reaches his a team mate though. How Bannan is still a first team player is beyond me. It's probably because Lerner has pulled the plug on real investment.
Apart from the 23 million spent in the summer being ignored.
How is it nonsense that by very definition 90% of the time the ball leaves their foot it reaches a team mate?
Nonsense is here somewhere for certain.
Ozz, come on, you need to learn the narrative. Every time Bannan gives the ball away, it is directly Lerner's fault.
Monbert, I remember having a discussion with you in pre season when I claimed the team wasn't good enough and we were heading for a relegation battle. You argued that everything was sweetness and light at Villa Park.
Hate to say I told you so.....
It's December, bit early to be waving the "told you so" banner.
If we're picking out old posts, I remember you having a pop at me on several occasions because "I never had a good word to say about the club".
Crikey, how times have changed.
It was just a polite reminder that things haven't turned out the way he claimed they would, so far.
As for old posts, I'm sure there's plenty from practically everyone on here who has said things that in hindsight have been proven wrong. I'm sure you'd be no different.
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Wee Baz is brilliant as Jessie Pinkman in Breaking Bad.
Bitch.
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SH decided some time back that Lerner's strategy this season was all wrong. A squad full of kids, wrong. Signing unheard of players, wrong. Selling players who want to leave, wrong. Not signing big name mercenaries, wrong. Building a squad based on youthful hungry players happy to play for the club, wrong. There's probably more reasons as well.
This is my supposition and maybe not Lerner's strategy at all. But whatever it is I'm happier that we are actually trying something different and I'd say the majority of fans back what is trying to be achieved by the club even though we may be in for a bumpy ride. We will have a stronger base in seasons to come going this route ( The Ajax model maybe) and it's far more fun than watching some journey men players (experience) going through the motions keeping us middle of the league.
I'm not really sure that the link between 'experienced' and 'mercenaries' is a fair one. Would the likes of Townsend and Merson be classed as bad signings because they were in their 30s when we signed them? I don't think anyone is advocating filling the team with experienced players, just adding couple in key positions.
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SH decided some time back that Lerner's strategy this season was all wrong. A squad full of kids, wrong. Signing unheard of players, wrong. Selling players who want to leave, wrong. Not signing big name mercenaries, wrong. Building a squad based on youthful hungry players happy to play for the club, wrong. There's probably more reasons as well.
This is my supposition and maybe not Lerner's strategy at all. But whatever it is I'm happier that we are actually trying something different and I'd say the majority of fans back what is trying to be achieved by the club even though we may be in for a bumpy ride. We will have a stronger base in seasons to come going this route ( The Ajax model maybe) and it's far more fun than watching some journey men players (experience) going through the motions keeping us middle of the league.
Here here
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SH decided some time back that Lerner's strategy this season was all wrong. A squad full of kids, wrong. Signing unheard of players, wrong. Selling players who want to leave, wrong. Not signing big name mercenaries, wrong. Building a squad based on youthful hungry players happy to play for the club, wrong. There's probably more reasons as well.
This is my supposition and maybe not Lerner's strategy at all. But whatever it is I'm happier that we are actually trying something different and I'd say the majority of fans back what is trying to be achieved by the club even though we may be in for a bumpy ride. We will have a stronger base in seasons to come going this route ( The Ajax model maybe) and it's far more fun than watching some journey men players (experience) going through the motions keeping us middle of the league.
I'm not really sure that the link between 'experienced' and 'mercenaries' is a fair one. Would the likes of Townsend and Merson be classed as bad signings because they were in their 30s when we signed them? I don't think anyone is advocating filling the team with experienced players, just adding couple in key positions.
No of course they wouldn't. It's just another example of somebody peddling the myth that there's no happy medium between division 3 youngsters and players like Alan Hutton.
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Surprise surprise I liked and agree with Bren's post.
Unfortunately Risso, we've had far too many of the Alan Hutton end of the scale of late. The Div 3 players you speak of are few and far between, one is starting to play more regularly and being seen to improve, the other has hardly played but is being judged by some as not worthy.
The younger players appear to be trying and to have the capacity to learn and improve.
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Surprise surprise I liked and agree with Bren's post.
Unfortunately Risso, we've had far too many of the Alan Hutton end of the scale of late. The Div 3 players you speak of are few and far between, one is starting to play more regularly and being seen to improve, the other has hardly played but is being judged by some as not worthy.
The younger players appear to be trying and to have the capacity to learn and improve.
Some of them have played fairly regularly for the best part of two seasons now and maybe Clark aside (though he still struggles with the physical side of the game), I can't say that any of them seem to have made any significant improvement at all.
The over reliance on them is one of the main reasons for the position we are in and the sooner we can get to the point that they no longer feature as regularly the better.
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Which ones?
My post was directed more towards the young players we signed from the lower divisions in the summer but I'm still interested in which of our crop you think haven't come on.
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Which ones?
My post was directed more towards the young players we signed from the lower divisions in the summer but I'm still interested in which of our crop you think haven't come on.
My mistake Drummond and I agree with you regarding the players we signed from lower divisions during the summer. They are doing well now, but given time, I think Westwood and Lowton will become top players for us and I think some of the criticism of Bennett has been a little harsh. I can't comment on Bowery as I haven't seen him play, but I do think the talent is there in the lower leagues if you look hard enough. I just feel that signing players from the lower leagues has to be balanced with signing established quality players, which to be fair Lambert did over the summer with the likes of Vlaar.
As for our younger players, I just can't see it with a lot of them especially as some of them are now approaching their mid-twenties. I remember Shane Warne saying about Monty Panesar that "he had played twenty first tests" and I think that is the case with our younger players. None of them really seem to have added anything to their game since they first came into the side, with Clark and Weimann being the possible exceptions. The others just make the same mistakes they made when they first came into the side and the fact that they feature so regularly just goes to show the kind of state the club is in. It is no coincidence that whenever that group of players has featured for a period of time in our team, we have invariably been drawn towards the relegation zone.
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As I and others have said before, it's playing so many youngsters in one go that has hurt us. Is bannan really worse than Gardner was at 22, or Clark / baker worse than Cahill / ridgewell. We let all of those go, and certainly few shed a tear for Gardner or ridgewell, while I've seen the Cahill / ridgewell partnership get ripped to pieces more than the current lot. Yet all would now be first team picks for us I imagine.
I don't personally think that herd or the fonz or lichaj or probably albrighton are going to be good enough. But bannan, Clark, baker, weimann, even delph have shown enough to me that they are worth persisting with. And Lowton and Westwood probably more than any of them
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As I and others have said before, it's playing so many youngsters in one go that has hurt us. Is bannan really worse than Gardner was at 22, or Clark / baker worse than Cahill / ridgewell. We let all of those go, and certainly few shed a tear for Gardner or ridgewell, while I've seen the Cahill / ridgewell partnership get ripped to pieces more than the current lot. Yet all would now be first team picks for us I imagine.
I don't personally think that herd or the fonz or lichaj or probably albrighton are going to be good enough. But bannan, Clark, baker, weimann, even delph have shown enough to me that they are worth persisting with. And Lowton and Westwood probably more than any of them
Good point Matt. It would be interesting to see how they would have got on if they were the only youngster in a team full of experienced players and if that would have helped them. The only question I would ask is how long do you persist with them for? The Fonz can't even hold down a regular place for Blackpool, yet I'm sure if he comes back there will be calls for him to be given a chance.
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As I and others have said before, it's playing so many youngsters in one go that has hurt us. Is bannan really worse than Gardner was at 22, or Clark / baker worse than Cahill / ridgewell. We let all of those go, and certainly few shed a tear for Gardner or ridgewell, while I've seen the Cahill / ridgewell partnership get ripped to pieces more than the current lot. Yet all would now be first team picks for us I imagine.
I don't personally think that herd or the fonz or lichaj or probably albrighton are going to be good enough. But bannan, Clark, baker, weimann, even delph have shown enough to me that they are worth persisting with. And Lowton and Westwood probably more than any of them
Good point Matt. It would be interesting to see how they would have got on if they were the only youngster in a team full of experienced players and if that would have helped them. The only question I would ask is how long do you persist with them for? The Fonz can't even hold down a regular place for Blackpool, yet I'm sure if he comes back there will be calls for him to be given a chance.
Strangely the German's (national team and dortmund) prefer to "launch" their players in groups together so they're already part of a coherent unit. Whereas adding players in isolation means they're more likely to expect to be carried rather than take responsibility themselves.
That's the theory anyway. Unfortunately we have not been in the position to plan for either.
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Interesting point on the Germans. Does that apply throughout the youth system and in introducing them to first team club football at the same time? I also suspect German youth football is s much bigger standard than ours. The reserves to the first team seems a massive step up to me. A lot if ressie football looksof poor quality
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SH decided some time back that Lerner's strategy this season was all wrong. A squad full of kids, wrong. Signing unheard of players, wrong. Selling players who want to leave, wrong. Not signing big name mercenaries, wrong. Building a squad based on youthful hungry players happy to play for the club, wrong. There's probably more reasons as well.
This is my supposition and maybe not Lerner's strategy at all. But whatever it is I'm happier that we are actually trying something different and I'd say the majority of fans back what is trying to be achieved by the club even though we may be in for a bumpy ride. We will have a stronger base in seasons to come going this route ( The Ajax model maybe) and it's far more fun than watching some journey men players (experience) going through the motions keeping us middle of the league.
Here here
Who is SH?
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So far this season I would roughly rate the squad as following,
Under 23s - Consistent (Clark, Lowton, Benteke, Westwood, Weimann, Bannan), Reliable back ups (Herd, Lichaj, Baker, Stevens), Inconsistent (Delph, Albrighton)
Over 23s - Consistent (Guzan, Vlaar), Inconsistent (Gabby, Ireland, N'Zogbia, Holman, KEA, Given, Bent)
I would have expected more of the senior players to cement places in the 1st 11 but they just haven't done it for me, look at the quality in that second clutch of half a dozen players (ignoring Given) and compare it to the goals and assists supplied by those players and it's a very poor return. We could ease 4 or 5 of the younger players out of the 1st team but that would be undeserved imo i think they belong there now.
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SH decided some time back that Lerner's strategy this season was all wrong. A squad full of kids, wrong. Signing unheard of players, wrong. Selling players who want to leave, wrong. Not signing big name mercenaries, wrong. Building a squad based on youthful hungry players happy to play for the club, wrong. There's probably more reasons as well.
This is my supposition and maybe not Lerner's strategy at all. But whatever it is I'm happier that we are actually trying something different and I'd say the majority of fans back what is trying to be achieved by the club even though we may be in for a bumpy ride. We will have a stronger base in seasons to come going this route ( The Ajax model maybe) and it's far more fun than watching some journey men players (experience) going through the motions keeping us middle of the league.
Here here
Who is SH?
saunders_heroes