Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: onje_villa on November 28, 2012, 12:22:19 PM
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We looked a bit dodgy defending set pieces last night but I thought other than that, how nice it was to have a dominant centre half in Baker. All the talk is of Vlaar being "concrete" and an enforcer but for me he's more of a ball player and he has certainly been outplayed aerially by a number of strikers this season already (Shaun Long as an example).
Baker really does tower over people and has just a touch of the Martin Laursen about him (God I miss him, and it was great to see him on the TV last night. Probably my favourite Villa player the mid 90s.).
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loved it when Laursen said last night , my times at Villa was the best of my career .
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I like Baker a lot.
He's far from perfect (to be honest, there were times last night when our entire defence scrambled around in panic every time the ball came into our box, so it's not just down to him), but he is one of those centre halves who makes it look relatively effortless. Strong, good awareness, and puts in a well-timed tackle.
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He did well, but he really needs to work on his distribution. A lot of our struggles last night were due to poor distribution from the back.
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The counter argument is that a hard working but limited player like Jason Roberts caused us all sorts of problems last night. He's still got a lot to learn.
That said, he's strong and quick and seems confident so he's got a chance but I think it will be a year or so before we know if he's going to be up to it.
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Reminds me of early Ugo a bit. He's gangly and looks a bit awkward, but he does have the attributes to be a decent no nonsense centre half and he's not afraid to throw himself in where it hurts. Think he would benefit form playing alongside Vlaar rather than Clarke.
Looked uncomfortable at times last night but we need to bear in mind he hadn't played for several weeks.
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I personally think Clark is the better player, but Baker is a useful back up and he might develop in time.
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He did well, but he really needs to work on his distribution. A lot of our struggles last night were due to poor distribution from the back.
He did have some James Collins-esque moments
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The counter argument is that a hard working but limited player like Jason Roberts caused us all sorts of problems last night. He's still got a lot to learn.
That said, he's strong and quick and seems confident so he's got a chance but I think it will be a year or so before we know if he's going to be up to it.
Jason Roberts might be a bit part average premiership player but he is a fecking string bugger who knows all the tricks in the book and uses them to his advantage. He really was starting to throw his weight around in the 2nd half and just as he was up steps Clark to take him out (he got a yellow BTW) Roberts stared at him and Clark just stared right back at him - 10 mins later the effect was worth it as Roberts limped off
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Jason Roberts might be a bit part average premiership player but he is a fecking string bugger who knows all the tricks in the book and uses them to his advantage. He really was starting to throw his weight around in the 2nd half and just as he was up steps Clark to take him out (he got a yellow BTW) Roberts stared at him and Clark just stared right back at him - 10 mins later the effect was worth it as Roberts limped off
That's your Theory
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Clark will do a 'Barry' and move into the holding midfield role I reckon. Baker is the better centre-half in my opinion.
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Before this season I would have said he's a holding midfielder too. I've been impressed with him as a centre half for a while now though. There's still the odd mistake there (small things) but he's 23 and having his first proper run in the position. Yesterday he was even the senior figure in Vlaar's absence. He'll only become a better centre back with time. In the meanwhile I hope Baker can become more composed on the ball.
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The fact that the back four was so inexperienced last nght, the few panics were probably inevitable and they would have been given a right runaround against better opposition. But I've already said on the post-match thread that I thought Baker was outstanding last night: he covered for CC a couple of times and got better through the game.
Both CC and Baker had obvously been told to 'man up' at half-time: Baker's first tackle in the left-hand corner was a cruncher, and CC stopped being bullied by Roberts after a few comings-together.
I do think that Baker might well end up being the better CB than Clark ... maybe CC will do a GazzaBazza and step up to CMF.
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Reminds me of early Ugo a bit. He's gangly and looks a bit awkward, but he does have the attributes to be a decent no nonsense centre half and he's not afraid to throw himself in where it hurts. Think he would benefit form playing alongside Vlaar rather than Clarke.
Looked uncomfortable at times last night but we need to bear in mind he hadn't played for several weeks.
I agree with this comparison, I might have written elsewhere that I think Baker is quite raw - he does crowd-pleasing things like win headers and time sliding tackles well but these are the basics at this level. I'm not sure his positional sense is completely there, though obviously this comes with experience and playing with Vlaar would benefit him.
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[quote author=onje_villa link=topic=48420.msg2186410#msg2186410 date=1354105339
Martin Laursen about him (God I miss him, and it was great to see him on the TV last night. Probably my favourite Villa player the mid 90s.).
[/quote]
mid 90's !
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I'm guessing it's meant to be "since the mid 90s"
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I'm guessing it's meant to be "since the mid 90s"
or 'the mid noughties'.
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Martin Laursen about him (God I miss him, and it was great to see him on the TV last night. Probably my favourite Villa player the mid 90s.).
mid 90's !
That's how long ago it seems pal! :)
He played well last night, and does seem to have a well-rounded game (with room for improvement obviously). I do agree that Clark is the better player of the two, but it's good to have the competition in that area, that he can step up if needed.
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Clark will do a 'Barry' and move into the holding midfield role I reckon. Baker is the better centre-half in my opinion.
I've mentioned many times that I think Nathan Baker is a great center half in the making.
I agree that I feel Clark into a defensive/holding midfield role bringing Baker in to partner Vlaar would be a good move.
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Clark will do a 'Barry' and move into the holding midfield role I reckon. Baker is the better centre-half in my opinion.
I've mentioned many times that I think Nathan Baker is a great center half in the making.
I agree that I feel Clark into a defensive/holding midfield role bringing Baker in to partner Vlaar would be a good move.
I'd go along with that, as a midfielder who's done a defenders job,he'd know when to step on and press, and where to be to shield as the ball comes back towards us etc.
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Lambert has already said that he doesn't see Clark as anything other than a centre back so I doubt we'll see him moved into midfield any time soon.
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Baker's achillies heel is his distribution.
Current football thinking is less about players who fit individual positions (such as a 'proper centre half') and more about versatile players who can play a number of different positions. Being a centre half that can tackle and head a ball just won't be enough going forward and I think Baker's lack of pace and passing ability will hold him back - certainly in Lambert's eyes.
The same principle applies to why Lambert doesn't see Clark as a midfielder. His passing is just about good enough to play centre half but he's not good enough to be in the middle of the park - midfielders of the future will need to be much more technically able than Clark is.
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We must keep hold of Baker. Future Captain & England player.
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Watched Baker and Clark play together in the youth team regularly and I said back then (on here) that Baker looked the better centre half to me, I think the kid's got a big future if he can stay clear of injury.
Love the way he tackles and goes through players.
Proper Centre half (potentially) indeed.
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I agree. Baker very much looks the part. Not a bad game all season when he has been selected.
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Baker is going to a dominating CH and being a left footer is added benefit for team balance.
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The thing I liked vs Roberts, Nathan put a couple of hefty yet fair reducers into him early on, brilliant. Good old fashioned CB.
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Clark's bodycheck was brilliant. Robert's is a canny centre forward and those pair of centre backs will have learnt as much playing against him as they did Giroud last Saturday.
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I think we're looking good at CH. We just could do with one more option in place of Dunne, who's fitness problems just keep continuing.
I like Baker. He's done well when called upon. Likewise I think Clark's done brilliantly in the last couple of games. He was somewhat erratic earlier in the season but given a decent run in the side, he's stepping up well now. Future captain perhaps. Likewise Baker.
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Baker's achillies heel is his distribution.
Current football thinking is less about players who fit individual positions (such as a 'proper centre half') and more about versatile players who can play a number of different positions. Being a centre half that can tackle and head a ball just won't be enough going forward and I think Baker's lack of pace and passing ability will hold him back - certainly in Lambert's eyes.
The same principle applies to why Lambert doesn't see Clark as a midfielder. His passing is just about good enough to play centre half but he's not good enough to be in the middle of the park - midfielders of the future will need to be much more technically able than Clark is.
Baker's only 20/21 with only a handful of games under his belt. His inexperience shows at times but his distribution at first team level will certainly improve (you don't play for, and captain, Eng U21's if that's a problem generally)
Have to disagree on the Clark point, I happen to think he's got quite a bit in his locker that we can't see while at center back, but, even so, you can't have a midfield full of 'Galactico' type players, every team needs a defensive worker to allow these to be able to display their skills.,
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Call me old fashione but a centre half can always give the ball short to his midfield who's job it it to pass.
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Call me old fashione but a centre half can always give the ball short to his midfield who's job it it to pass.
The trouble with ball playing centre halves like Rio, Roy McFarland and Luiz is you cant trust them 100%. I prefer the Jaap Stam, Chris Nichol
model of centre half...even Micky Droy!. Win the ball and give it to a midfielder to use...quickly.
and score with a header from corners!
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Call me old fashione but a centre half can always give the ball short to his midfield who's job it it to pass.
The trouble with ball playing centre halves like Rio, Roy McFarland and Luiz is you cant trust them 100%. I prefer the Jaap Stam, Chris Nichol
model of centre half...even Mickey Droy!. Win the ball and give it to a midfielder to use...quickly.
and score with a header from corners!
Mickey Droy, now there was a beast of a center half
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Call me old fashione but a centre half can always give the ball short to his midfield who's job it it to pass.
The trouble with ball playing centre halves like Rio, Roy McFarland and Luiz is you cant trust them 100%. I prefer the Jaap Stam, Chris Nichol
model of centre half...even Mickey Droy!. Win the ball and give it to a midfielder to use...quickly.
and score with a header from corners!
Mickey Droy, now there was a beast of a center half
"In the blue corner Christian Benteke, in the red corner Micky Droy". Now that's mouthwatering!
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Call me old fashione but a centre half can always give the ball short to his midfield who's job it it to pass.
The trouble with ball playing centre halves like Rio, Roy McFarland and Luiz is you cant trust them 100%. I prefer the Jaap Stam, Chris Nichol
model of centre half...even Mickey Droy!. Win the ball and give it to a midfielder to use...quickly.
and score with a header from corners!
Mickey Droy, now there was a beast of a center half
"In the blue corner Christian Benteke, in the red corner Micky Droy". Now that's mouthwatering!
We've had better clashes in training. Imagine George Curtis and Andy Lochhead ten yards apart and the ball between them.
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Big George and Andy Lochead - ouch! Just reading that post makes me want to put shin-pads on.
Andy Gray and Allan Evans would be another good one.
Pongo Waring was married to Frank Barson's daughter. Imagine those two at the Christmas dinner table with the turkey between them. I bet the sharp knives stayed in the drawer on family visits in those days.
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In the lightweight division Sid versus Alex Cropley would be entertaining.
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Same division-Downing versus a slight north westerly breeze?
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Call me old fashione but a centre half can always give the ball short to his midfield who's job it it to pass.
The trouble with ball playing centre halves like Rio, Roy McFarland and Luiz is you cant trust them 100%. I prefer the Jaap Stam, Chris Nichol
model of centre half...even Mickey Droy!. Win the ball and give it to a midfielder to use...quickly.
and score with a header from corners!
Mickey Droy, now there was a beast of a center half
"In the blue corner Christian Benteke, in the red corner Micky Droy". Now that's mouthwatering!
We've had better clashes in training. Imagine George Curtis and Andy Lochhead ten yards apart and the ball between them.
The Times described Micky Droy as "six foot four inches of hard core centre half who had an unsentimental way with a headed clearance"
I saw him in the flesh once in Stepney I think it was. He looked as if he could look after himself and several others.He must have played against Andy Lochhead.
Now that would have been a contest to behold.
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I'd like to have seen Neale Cooper versus Steve Hodge. Or for that matter, any vaguely psycopathic lunatic against Steve Hodge.
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I'd like to have seen Neale Cooper versus Steve Hodge. Or for that matter, any vaguely psycopathic lunatic against Steve Hodge.
I'd like to have seen Neale Cooper occasionally.