Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: maidstonevillain on September 02, 2012, 12:01:59 PM
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Say the PL Experiment/Project works. And most of the lower league/foreign signings become at least competent regular first-teamers in a reasonably successful team. Could this spell the demise or dilution of the Academy.
Do we need to spend millions of pounds over many years recruiting and developing youngsters to produce every few seasons one average first team regular, a few emergency substitutes, and a relatively small revenue stream from sales to lower leagues. When instead in one transfer window, with good scouting, astute management and vision, and at modest outlay, we may be able to get 3 or 4 comparable, or even better, players "off-the-shelf".
And who's to say that even without the academy, the Agbonlahors, Albrightons, Gardners (ie the local lads) would still not come through the local junior and non-league/lower league teams, ready to be picked up, and probably "more hungry" and better grounded, at a later date.
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No, we just need to have good relations with specific lower league clubs where our promising young players can go out on loan to further their development.
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Think loaning players out is important. Arsenal do this extensively.
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I was thinking about this after the number of players Paul has brought in from lower Leagues and young players as well. Surely these are the places that our home grown kids were supposed to fill but they are not quite up to it.
We do need to keep the Academy but a re-think is required. We do manage to find some talented youngsters however they fall short. May be Paul can look at bringing in some German coaches and methods for the specific purpose of developing our youngsters.
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I expect that over the next few years the culture within the big clubs, ourselves included, will continue to move to more investment for the academies. That doesn't mean an astute manager who does his homework won't be able to find the bargains in the lower leagues but an investment in youth development is the future for Premiership clubs. Our own academy will continue to grow and evolve as this happens.
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Academy products have brought in a few million (8-10?) over the last few years, and Gabby has probably saved us a few million by establishing himself as a first team player. So the academy has probably covered it's costs, or at least a fair part of them. But I think the emphasis of the academy is not quite right. For me it's appeared more focused on building teams to win the youth league or cup and not enough on producing outstanding individuals with superb technique.
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Hopefully this will actually be the making of the academy and the players produced rather than what writes them off.
One of the threads has comments about the poison in the dressing room. Being a young player brought into that can't be a good experience, by getting the attitude of the dressing room right with a manager who knows how to bring them through we'll hopefully be giving the academy products a much better chance of making the most of the opportunities. I genuinely think the majority of the problems with the current academy players around the squad is that were really badly handled in the promotion to the first team process.
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The academy system is excellent. Ever had a tour? Breathtaking.
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I really don't see the Academy being scrapped. If anything, the fact that the first team are starting to play a similar style of football to the academy and reserve teams (from what I've heard) might mean that the youngsters won't have to adapt their game as much to fit in, meaning that it could become even more important. Also, as has been mentioned, it's likely to be a reasonably self-reliant, financially.
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I'd like to see us do more with Walsall. Get some of the lads out to get some first team experience away from Villa, but close enough that they can come back and train with Villa when needed and obviously not have the necessity of having to move them away from the area. Walsall would also benefit hugely too.
Players like Johnson, Siegrist and Burke, who are maybe ready for 1st team football would be ideal for both parties.
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I think a key factor for deciding a club to partner with is the style of football that team/manager plays. I don't know if Walsall play a passing game or not but it would be a waste of time partnering a club that plays alladyce hoofball.
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Future players have to come from somewhere and no reason why they can't come from Bodymoor Heath. All we have to do is make sure we pick the right youngsters.
Anyway, the academy didn't do too bad today. Bannan cross for Clark to head in.
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The academy just showed its worth off yet again today.
Lichaj, Clark, Bannan, Weimann and then Gabby all putting in excellent performances. We have one of the best academies around and it doesn't matter who's in charge or who that manager buys, the academy will always bring through talent for the first team. That's something we can really be proud of.
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Academies work on the basis of producing one first team regular every few years. Ours has produced way more than that.
I'm worried we're relying too much on youth, but really, I can't even begin to see how we could think about downgrading the importance of the academy.
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Our academy is excellent and it will only be invested in more in coming years. Especially as our scouting system improves.
Some think it should be a machine spitting out wonderkids every few months, but that's not realistic.
The odd wonderkid will come along every now and then, but if we're producing good players that are either of use to us or are sold for decent money, it should be considered a success in my opinion. We have one of the best around and it should be developed further until its the best in the country and one of the best in Europe.
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I think Lambert will work harder to get promising players out on loan, so they can make that leap from the reserves to the first team.
He'll be the making of our academy.
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Whether we have produced a clutch of thoroughbreds or not, we'd be pretty fucked right now but for the contribution from the academy players over the last two seasons.
All the same, I'd agree with the notion that it has produced a higher than average number of PL players. Well worth it.
If there is a problem it is probably reserve team football. It doesn't extend players enough. Maybe things would have panned out differently for the Moore brothers - and on or two others - if at 19 they had faced stiffer competition more often.
Maybe the new u-21 league will help.
Wenger may make good use of the loan system, but his 'academy' tends to include a lot of players raided from elsewhere with physical strength seemingly one of the criteria for selection. It's a lot easier for such players to command a regular starting spot in as 19/20 year old loanees.
If I have one criticism of out academy it is that the best players from the area this last few years - Joleon Lescott, Sturridge and now Redmond - have slipped through our fingers for whatever reason.
Maybe it's bad luck or maybe we should look at recruitment/scouting.
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Upping the scouting in Europe should mean we get a few more high quality youngsters into the academy that will raise the standard of the place too. Theoretically it doesn't push local youth out it should raise the standard of the youth we have in place, especially if they are confident they will get a chance if they are good enough.
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Sturridge's parents wanted an excessive amount of money for us to retain him. We refused so he went elsewhere.
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Sturridge's parents wanted an excessive amount of money for us to retain him. We refused so he went elsewhere.
Must follow in the family as he is greedy sod.
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The academy just showed its worth off yet again today.
Lichaj, Clark, Bannan, Weimann and then Gabby all putting in excellent performances. We have one of the best academies around and it doesn't matter who's in charge or who that manager buys, the academy will always bring through talent for the first team. That's something we can really be proud of.
Lichaj and Weimann joined when they were 19, and Bannan at 18. I'm not sure how much credit our academy can take for them.
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Sturridge's parents wanted an excessive amount of money for us to retain him. We refused so he went elsewhere.
Must follow in the family as he is greedy sod.
I've met Sturridge's Dad(albeit briefly), seemed a bit of a nob flashing his/his son's cash about and acting generally what you would expect from an arrogant modern footballer
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The academy just showed its worth off yet again today.
Lichaj, Clark, Bannan, Weimann and then Gabby all putting in excellent performances. We have one of the best academies around and it doesn't matter who's in charge or who that manager buys, the academy will always bring through talent for the first team. That's something we can really be proud of.
Lichaj and Weimann joined when they were 19, and Bannan at 18. I'm not sure how much credit our academy can take for them.
Lichaj was 18, Weimann 16 and Bannan 14. So a fair bit.
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Sturridge's parents wanted an excessive amount of money for us to retain him. We refused so he went elsewhere.
Must follow in the family as he is greedy sod.
I've met Sturridge's Dad(albeit briefly), seemed a bit of a nob flashing his/his son's cash about and acting generally what you would expect from an arrogant modern footballer
Not unusual with parents of a young sons elevation to the big money, they often seem to think they've earned some refected glory. Bit of a nob sums them up nicely ::)
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I don't think anyone expects the academy to churn out superstars every few months. But it would be nice to unearth a genuine major star player every now and then, which many of the other major clubs have managed to do, some of them unearthing several. The closest we've come is Cahill who is about the only one to be eventually) snapped up by a club competing at the top level and establish himself as a regular in the England set up.
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I don't think anyone expects the academy to churn out superstars every few months. But it would be nice to unearth a genuine major star player every now and then, which many of the other major clubs have managed to do, some of them unearthing several. The closest we've come is Cahill who is about the only one to be eventually) snapped up by a club competing at the top level and establish himself as a regular in the England set up.
As I said earlier, the academy is about getting players to a certain point. That bit is working perfectly, Starting from the back we have Lichaj, Clark, Baker, Gardner, Johnson, Bannan, Albrighton, Carruthers, Weimann, Burke and the Fonz who are all around the first team squad (bar the Fonz who was until he went on loan).
The issue that exists is in the converting of that potential talent into genuine quality. Every player listed there has shown enough in flashes to have people think they can make it in this league, and most of that list will probably have at least decent premier league careers but, due to the issues in the club, I don't think any of them have come even close to their peak currently, if we can get 2-3 of that lot to close to their top potential we'll have done well, if we can get the system right for the next batch we could do even better going forward.
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In terms of converting potential, they've not exactly been helped by a succession of managers who were either reluctant to give young players a chance or were so crap that they mis-used them and the side was poor. Provided that Lambert can stick around for a good number of years and the philosophies and infrastructure that are put in place during his stay remain, we should see promising young players adapt to the first team.
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Yeah,being thrown in at the deep end,in a team with an all time low lack of confidence,coached by a manager with very little coaching ability,must have really harmed the young-uns last season. We'll have a far better idea by the end of this season,who is gonna make it out of the Bannan era crop of players.
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It's been great watching the reserves sweep all before them the last few years, especially Bazza. I'd love them to all make it.
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Am I alone in this.....
I can't see the point in this post? :o
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Which one - yours? Nor me.
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In terms of converting potential, they've not exactly been helped by a succession of managers who were either reluctant to give young players a chance or were so crap that they mis-used them and the side was poor. Provided that Lambert can stick around for a good number of years and the philosophies and infrastructure that are put in place during his stay remain, we should see promising young players adapt to the first team.
I'd certainly agree with you with MON and TSM, but is it a coincidence that Bannan and Albrighton have had the best form of their career (so far) under Houllier, another manager who wanted a more passing style than the other two?
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The point wasn't just about who the managers were but also the point that there's been no stability. Finally they have a manager who should be around for a while.
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We done well with our academy but we need to set a standard template for whole club in footballing style and system. We also need to find way to turn very good prospects into world class players. I hope PL and his Germans method and new coaches will help. It just need a little shake up.
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The first team does (which it is getting). The academy system is fine.
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If there is a criticism of the academy lads then i'd suggest the size of the contracts they've been given before they've established themselves as first team regulars dulls their hunger for success. I remember reading that Luke Moore was (allegedly) on £17,000 a week when he was 19 and being used mainly from the bench. Compare that to the likes of Westwood who'd only be getting a fraction of that as club captain at Crewe and views a move to Villa as his big chance at cracking the big time.
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I know what you mean but there was massive interest in Luke and we had to ensure he stayed. Hence his first pro contract being larger than typical.
Maybe the size of the contract contributed to his attitude problems which is the only thing stopping him from being a top player. It still annoys me greatly how spectacularly he has bombed when players with a fraction of his natural talent are thriving.
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I know what you mean but there was massive interest in Luke and we had to ensure he stayed. Hence his first pro contract being larger than typical.
Maybe the size of the contract contributed to his attitude problems which is the only thing stopping him from being a top player. It still annoys me greatly how spectacularly he has bombed when players with a fraction of his natural talent are thriving.
That's the problem.If we hadn't given him the contract and he'd left and gone on to be a star elsewhere then we'd be up in arms at the perceived stinginess of the board. I suppose in the grand scheme of things Luke Moore is a success for the academy as we sold him for £3/3.5m? His brother's demise though is even greater.What a waste of ability for the two of them.
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Don't quote me but I think PL has said or hinted that he likes the lower league youngsters as they've played competetively against men rather than against other kids. (basically probably had lumps kicked out of them and therefore more likely to be unfazed).
Then it dawned on me that our acadamy is superb but the loaning out bit is crucial rather than expecting them to come in and do a job.
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I'm sure that if we'd had a bigger squad and/or less injuries, more of our current crop of kids would have been loaned out by now.
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To be fair who of the current first team who've graduated from the academy haven't been loaned out to lower league clubs? I can't think of anyone other than Albrighton, but i'm not sure he hasn't.
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Oh and Clark hasn't either
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Clark and Albrighton haven't been out on loan.
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Agree entirely that the young players should go out on loan and for 6 months/season long not just a month. David Pleat said on radio the other night when they were discussing size of squads that Chelsea have 14 players out on loan already this season!
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I know a lad who played for Aston Villa under 12's and his strike partner was Daniel Sturridge...
The only player in that team that is in the premier league is Danial Sturridge, the rest are not part of the villa squad or any other Prem Squad to my knowledge...
Point being I dont think many that come through our youth systems actually come through our youth system - we bring them in from other teams when they are much oder, e.g. bannan, wiemann, lichaj are not even english!
So I dont see what will change?
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In terms of converting potential, they've not exactly been helped by a succession of managers who were either reluctant to give young players a chance or were so crap that they mis-used them and the side was poor. Provided that Lambert can stick around for a good number of years and the philosophies and infrastructure that are put in place during his stay remain, we should see promising young players adapt to the first team.
I thinik merely having a succession of managers in the last few years hasn't helped, no matter how they're used. The huge advantage the likes of Arsenal and Man Utd have is a stable management team that know the capabilities of their academy.
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There will no doubt be a few more in the pipeline, but a quick look at FA Youth Cup final teams/subs in the period 2000-2009 reveals that out of what must be close to 300 players, only 19 have gone on to become top-flight regulars.
Sidwell, Wilshire (arsenal), Rooney (everton), Bardsley, Richardson, Ebanks-Blake, Wellbeck(manu), Adam Johnson (middlesboro), Bale, Walcott, Nathan Dyer (Southampton), Richards, Sturridge (man city)
Liam Ridgewell, Steven Davis, Gary Cahill, Craig Gardner, Gabby Agbonlahor
It's a bit subjective and I may have missed be one or two, but we seem to do pretty well with 5, 3 of whom went on to play at international level.
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Even some of those that don't make it here go on to do alright.
Whittingham is one of the best in the Championship and James Collins, formerly of this parish, just dumped dirty Stoke out of the league cup with a hattrick.
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We done well with our academy but we need to set a standard template for whole club in footballing style and system. We also need to find way to turn very good prospects into world class players. I hope PL and his Germans method and new coaches will help. It just need a little shake up.
That's a good point, the most successful academies (I'm talking about Ajax, Barcelona for example) see it as important that the youngsters are brought up playing the game the way the first team will be playing it. But that's easily said when the first team style is based on modern technique and tactics rather than the dinosaur approach of MON and TSM. I'm not sure what style the youth and reserves have been playing but I'd guess it's been more of a pass and move game than the first team have generally been applying (Houllier and PL excepted) during the Lerner era.
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Yes, they've played some lovely stuff for a few years now.
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That's what I suspected Percy, and maybe some of those good habits can come to the fore and be put to good use now we have a proper manager.
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Indeed. There's really only one way to play with Barry Bannan dictating games.
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I made the point already (but was ignored, you rotters), but I really don't think it was a coincidence that so far in their careers, Albrighton and Bannan's best form came under the manager who tried to play the best football (whatever you make of Houllier's shortcomings is irrelevant, up until this season this is undeniable).
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Good point Ger, sorry for ignoring you.
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It's quite alright, I'm used to it by now. *sniff*
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Did someone type something?
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Lol.
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nothing to see here...
In reality you're absolutely spot on. I've been advocating for a while that we should have a football director who dictates the style from the top down and who picks managers, coaches and scouts at all levels to build a 'club way'.
Barcelona's success is based almost entirely on homegrown talent, based around teaching kids from 10 years old in a system that is used at all levels.
The advantage Barcelona have though is having the reserve team play to a reasonably high standard, we'd still need to use loans to get that experience for them.
The key to getting the loan system right is to hand pick teams based on style and offer players to them and avoid letting players go to the hoofball merchants, try to avoid letting them pick up bad habits.
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Agreed, and it is no coincidence that Bannan did best on loan at Blackpool under Holloway because they played football.
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Our academy is excellent and it will only be invested in more in coming years. Especially as our scouting system improves.
Some think it should be a machine spitting out wonderkids every few months, but that's not realistic.
The odd wonderkid will come along every now and then, but if we're producing good players that are either of use to us or are sold for decent money, it should be considered a success in my opinion. We have one of the best around and it should be developed further until its the best in the country and one of the best in Europe.
I think that's the thing. for clubs its about producing one or two players and hoping that get to first team standard. If not for us then for a lower league club. Money brought in vindicates the Academy. for fans its about getting a wonderkid which is rarely likely to happen. Every academy , or young player coming through is generally compared to Man Us youth-team of the 90s that churned out top players at premiership and international level. That was a perverse oddity and not likely to be seen anywhere again.
our Academy is bringing a lot of players through. Some get a lower league career some even play in the Prem. I think most clubs would look at us with more than a touch of envy/respect.
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Barcelona's youth system would be something better to aspire to.
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Could we buy walsall football club and use it as a B team?
That way the football philosphy could be managed across the 2, we get a 2nd team and all our players go out on loan together!
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Could we buy walsall football club and use it as a B team?
That way the football philosphy could be managed across the 2, we get a 2nd team and all our players go out on loan together!
God foirbid that could ever happen.
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Our academy is excellent and it will only be invested in more in coming years. Especially as our scouting system improves.
Some think it should be a machine spitting out wonderkids every few months, but that's not realistic.
The odd wonderkid will come along every now and then, but if we're producing good players that are either of use to us or are sold for decent money, it should be considered a success in my opinion. We have one of the best around and it should be developed further until its the best in the country and one of the best in Europe.
I think that's the thing. for clubs its about producing one or two players and hoping that get to first team standard. If not for us then for a lower league club. Money brought in vindicates the Academy. for fans its about getting a wonderkid which is rarely likely to happen. Every academy , or young player coming through is generally compared to Man Us youth-team of the 90s that churned out top players at premiership and international level. That was a perverse oddity and not likely to be seen anywhere again.
our Academy is bringing a lot of players through. Some get a lower league career some even play in the Prem. I think most clubs would look at us with more than a touch of envy/respect.
I would have to agree with this. Although we obviously would love to see dozens of first team regulars making it from the Academy, that's not realistic and the Academy system is about much more than that. Aston Villa are about more than just the first team, although that's what it's all built upon, it's also serves a wider purpose in the community and the Academy is a big part of that, giving youngsters in the area and from further afield a chance to get an education and a football education too which gives them a chance of a career in the game.
I bet if you spoke to any of the academy coaches they would be just as proud of those youngsters who have come through the system to then enjoy careers in the lower leagues or careers in or around football, even if they are not star names or earning millions, they are still making a living thanks to the upbringing they got through the Villa Academy. I think we should all be proud of the impact the Academy can have on the huge numbers of youngsters who come through it, even if they don't go on to have careers with Villa.
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You read my mind cjm, well put.
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The cost of running the academy (and other infrastructure costs) are excluded from the new Financial Fair Play.
Whether the FFP rules will ever be enforced is another matter but regardless it is another reason to plough on and possibly even expand our expenditure in the yoof.