Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: kipeye on April 25, 2012, 07:55:06 PM
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It hasn't been a pleasant time to be a Villain lately, this year in particular, but now that we are facing the fact that we have slid beyond depths we never expected to face. In the light of this its not surprising many have expressed anger and worse at the continuing worsening of our situation. Many of us have fallen out badly too.
Well, life goes on with or without football and for those of us who before have faced meltdown (not as simple as just relegation - that's only part of it), many of us will remember reaching a turning point where we let go of our expectations and resigned ourselves to supporting the club whatever the future brings.
It is hard to understand why some of us go on that the Third Division days were some of the best times as a supporter. Not because we liked being down there below every other Midland club but because we had let go of our expectations and simply began supporting the team.
I would like to see our dignity return whatever our footballing status. No amount of bile aimed at our team,manager, owner and fellow supporters will change things by itself. Only a sense of humour and humility is likely to get us back together-wherever we end up.
Please, everyone-give us back our dignity.
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I've got it on 7". Yours for £2 plus postage.
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I've got it on 7". Yours for £2 plus postage.
Risso-you've been told before what 7" is-stop exaggerating.
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Good post Kipeye. I think there's been a lot of that sentiment today. People are talking of a rally the troops style effort for the next home game. There's too much at stake now.
It's between the players and the fans now. It would be better if McLeish wasn't there but he is. Lets forget he's there and focus on channelling good energy to the players. Direct them from the Holte End. Then when we know our fate at the end of the season, our feelings (and real value to the club) will be known.
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Good post Kipeye. I think there's been a lot of that sentiment today. People are talking of a rally the troops style effort for the next home game. There's too much at stake now.
It's between the players and the fans now. It would be better if McLeish wasn't there but he is. Lets forget he's there and focus on channelling good energy to the players. Direct them from the Holte End. Then when we know our fate at the end of the season, our feelings (and real value to the club) will be known.
Post of the day. Spot on.
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Good post Kipeye. I think there's been a lot of that sentiment today. People are talking of a rally the troops style effort for the next home game. There's too much at stake now.
It's between the players and the fans now. It would be better if McLeish wasn't there but he is. Lets forget he's there and focus on channelling good energy to the players. Direct them from the Holte End. Then when we know our fate at the end of the season, our feelings (and real value to the club) will be known.
Let's give it 110% for the next three games never mind the next home game. Starting with West Brom, there's plenty of points to be won.
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Good post Kipeye. I think there's been a lot of that sentiment today. People are talking of a rally the troops style effort for the next home game. There's too much at stake now.
It's between the players and the fans now. It would be better if McLeish wasn't there but he is. Lets forget he's there and focus on channelling good energy to the players. Direct them from the Holte End. Then when we know our fate at the end of the season, our feelings (and real value to the club) will be known.
Let's give it 110% for the next three games never mind the next home game. Starting with West Brom, there's plenty of points to be won.
No, fuck that shabby 110 percent, let's give it ONE MILLION PERCENT.
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Yep, nice post.
Even if we can't bring ourselves to cheer McLeish, let's make the Spurs game reminiscent of one of those great European nights, when we jeer and boo every touch from the opposition. And instead of waiting for a cue from the team, let's make some noise throughout the game, encouragement goes a long way way when confidence is low, especially for the young lads we'll most likely be fielding.
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If the players give 68% possession to our opponents, and with your usual copious abuse, I'm sure we can get the right result.
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It is either dignity or go down. A time for cool heads all round.
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How times change.
30 years ago we beat Bayern in the European Cup Final. Chelsea came 12 in the old Second Division.
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Thankyou very much Kipeye, a very nice post.
As I've said before one of the few things that I would genuinely look forward to in relegation would be having the ground containing those who actually love the club, and not those who came along for the O'Neil ride.
West Brom are, and always will be, utter shit. Spurs are in a dire run of form at the moment, and Norwich are overrated and have nothing to play for. We've all been waiting for the players to give us something to sing about; lets give them something to play for.
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How times change.
30 years ago we beat Bayern in the European Cup Final. Chelsea came 12 in the old Second Division.
10 years before that we were Third Division Champions and as proud as we could be; about to embark on a great journey.
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It is either dignity or go down.
Well no, not really.
We have been quite dignified for the vast majority of home games on you know who's watch, ignoring where he came from and all that other bobbins. With people ready and willing to give him a chance he's delivered 4 home wins.
I'm not advocating riots either, BTW.
But dignity AND going down - or going down with barely a murmur- would be largely consistent with this season as a whole.
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Dignity is a two way street.The fans have lost it once in a very bad season(I am not counting the pre season protest).I think you are showing 95% of our fans a lack of dignity.
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Dignatas - a mercy killing for the season?
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I think you've hit the nail on the head, Kipeye, in the sense that our expectations have run way ahead of most of the likely outcomes for us.
It's time to re-build, properly, as fans and as a club, and if this means a period in the second Division (in old money) well so be it.
Forget the glitz, the glory, the bullshit of the EPL; forget in what order our game appears on MOTD; ignore the goadings of other fans.
Let's invoke the heritage of the club that we support and seek a genuine path to sustainable future success.
I have contributed to and read over the comments in yesterday's Guardian article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/apr/25/aston-villa-fans-alex-mcleish) and it's instructive to read what other fans say about Villa: for many, there is ennui and a metaphorical shrug of the shoulders; for some there is schadenfreude (Barcodes, Boggies and Bluenoses, mainly) because our 'birds are coming home to roost'.
If we stay up, we need to persuade the owner / management that this has been a cathartic season and something now needs to be done for the long-term. If we drop, then we again need to think more seriously about who the "Vic Crowe" character needs to be to bring us back stronger and healthier than we are currently.
In all of this, we 'win' in the eyes of the football world if we maintain the dignity of which Kipeye speaks.
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It is either dignity or go down.
Well no, not really.
We have been quite dignified for the vast majority of home games on you know who's watch, ignoring where he came from and all that other bobbins. With people ready and willing to give him a chance he's delivered 4 home wins.
I'm not advocating riots either, BTW.
But dignity AND going down - or going down with barely a murmur- would be largely consistent with this season as a whole.
I appreciate that there has not been a great deal of protesting etc during most of our games this season and it has only really come to the boil a couple of times. However, if the atmosphere at the start of the next few games is anything like it was at the end of the Bolton one, we might as well throw the towel in now. As the crowds have diminished at Villa Park, the noise levels have gone up. We need to keep that up and get over the line. Don't for a minute think that I was sitting there happy-clapping. I was well pissed off with how that game turned out. It had always been a banker of at least a point for me and to see the lead thrown away was stomach turning, especially with the predicament it now leaves us in.
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Unfortunately the FA have allowed our game to be a battle of who can spend the most money, who has the richest owner. Don't want to be relegated but if we do survive it will be in the knowledge that we among many others will not be able to compete with the few. I know there has been animosity toward the Geordies but they have given me hope, i am one who would love them to keep one of the so called elite sides out of Europe. Kipeye you are right, but after the seasons finished supporters would be entitled to vent their feelings.
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I wasn't at the match the other night, I nearly was..Lucky escape, When I have been down I've never directed any abuse towards any player! I also got into an arguement at Wigan defending Bent.
All of my frustration lies at the door of mcleish & Lerner but you're right we do need to get berhind the team and I'm sure we will staring at the Boggies
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It is either dignity or go down. A time for cool heads all round.
Sorry that's nonsense Dave. They are not mutually exclusive, we can show all the dignity we like but could still go down. It is possible to protest with dignity - see Villa revolution 1968 - but I've absolutely nothing against people venting their feelings at the game the other night,or any other game, because it's the best way to let that idiot owner and his lickspittle know how the fans feel. It may or may not affect the performance, only the players can tell you the true answer to that one, but they can hardly play any worse than they have been recently. And I believe ultimately it's in the best interests of the club to do anything to rid it of that incompetent manager. Sometimes you have to endure pain to get the gain. For me, if we are going down, it's better to go with a fight than with a whimper - to quote a famous poet - "Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light".
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Yes it was too personal
Yes it was over the top
But it was a genuine statement of disenchantment and frustration for yet another poor result and it came from all corners of the ground.
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£4m pay off buys you an awful lot of dignity
There's a Gingoid I know
He's a manager for the Villa
Has been all season
And he takes advice off nobody
And puts us in the gutter
He's loved by Faulkner
And Lerners soft as butter
And he picks the sides for draws
The fans call him "McCunty"
He never lets on
But i know 'cause he once told me
He let me know a secret about the money in his contract
He's gonna buy a luxury yacht
Gonna call it dignity
And he'll sail her up the west coast
Through villages and towns
He'll be on his holidays
While our club is going down
They'll ask him how he got her he'll say "with those ******'s money"
They'll say isn't it shitty that ship called dignity
And i'm telling this story
becuase his wages are obscene
Sipping down the table
It must be a bad dream
And i'm thinking about our club and all that means
And a relegation with no dignity
And he'll sail her up the west coast
Through villages and towns
He'll be on his holidays
While our club is going down
They'll ask him how he got her he'll say "with those ******'s money"
They'll say isn't it shitty that ship called dignity
And i'm thinking about Europe
And i'm thinking about trophies
And i'm thinking about full grounds
And i'm thinking about how good it would be
To be back there some day
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£4m pay off buys you an awful lot of dignity
There's a Gingoid I know
He's a manager for the Villa
Has been all season
And he takes advice off nobody
And puts us in the gutter
He's loved by Faulkner
And Lerners soft as butter
And he picks the sides for draws
The fans call him "McCunty"
He never lets on
But i know 'cause he once told me
He let me know a secret about the money in his contract
He's gonna buy a luxury yacht
Gonna call it dignity
And he'll sail her up the west coast
Through villages and towns
He'll be on his holidays
While our club is going down
They'll ask him how he got her he'll say "with those c***'s money"
They'll say isn't it shitty that ship called dignity
And i'm telling this story
becuase his wages are obscene
Sipping down the table
It must be a bad dream
And i'm thinking about our club and all that means
And a relegation with no dignity
And he'll sail her up the west coast
Through villages and towns
He'll be on his holidays
While our club is going down
They'll ask him how he got her he'll say "with those c***'s money"
They'll say isn't it shitty that ship called dignity
And i'm thinking about Europe
And i'm thinking about trophies
And i'm thinking about full grounds
And i'm thinking about how good it would be
To be back there some day
That's brilliant
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It is either dignity or go down. A time for cool heads all round.
Sorry that's nonsense Dave. They are not mutually exclusive, we can show all the dignity we like but could still go down. It is possible to protest with dignity - see Villa revolution 1968 - but I've absolutely nothing against people venting their feelings at the game the other night,or any other game, because it's the best way to let that idiot owner and his lickspittle know how the fans feel. It may or may not affect the performance, only the players can tell you the true answer to that one, but they can hardly play any worse than they have been recently. And I believe ultimately it's in the best interests of the club to do anything to rid it of that incompetent manager. Sometimes you have to endure pain to get the gain. For me, if we are going down, it's better to go with a fight than with a whimper - to quote a famous poet - "Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light".
All I am saying is that, if we want to stay up, we must get behind the team for the remaining games as nobody could possibly play in the atmosphere as it was at the end of the Bolton game. If all hope has gone, as it had after 80 odd minutes the other night, then letting rip can do no further damage.
Those who would prefer that we go down and rebuild might think differently and that is up to them.
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I see where you are coming from to an extent DC5, but on the other hand, our best chance of staying up might be to ditch McLeish now, because a change often brings a fresh impetus. And our best chance of doing that might be if everyone in the ground lets Randy and Faulkner know they want him out in no uncertain terms. But you have a point, maybe wait until the last 10 minutes or so and only give it the verbals if it looks like yet another cock up.
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I see where you are coming from to an extent DC5, but on the other hand, our best chance of staying up might be to ditch McLeish now, because a change often brings a fresh impetus. And our best chance of doing that might be if everyone in the ground lets Randy and Faulkner know they want him out in no uncertain terms. But you have a point, maybe wait until the last 10 minutes or so and only give it the verbals if it looks like yet another cock up.
The club’s statement is pretty specific that he is going no-where for the next three games. So whilst you might be right it’s not going to happen so get behind the team and hope we can muddle through despite everything else.
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If things go well this weekend and we're virtually safe by time of Spurs game can we give him both barrels then?
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It is either dignity or go down. A time for cool heads all round.
Sorry that's nonsense Dave. They are not mutually exclusive, we can show all the dignity we like but could still go down. It is possible to protest with dignity - see Villa revolution 1968 - but I've absolutely nothing against people venting their feelings at the game the other night,or any other game, because it's the best way to let that idiot owner and his lickspittle know how the fans feel. It may or may not affect the performance, only the players can tell you the true answer to that one, but they can hardly play any worse than they have been recently. And I believe ultimately it's in the best interests of the club to do anything to rid it of that incompetent manager. Sometimes you have to endure pain to get the gain. For me, if we are going down, it's better to go with a fight than with a whimper - to quote a famous poet - "Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light".
All I am saying is that, if we want to stay up, we must get behind the team for the remaining games as nobody could possibly play in the atmosphere as it was at the end of the Bolton game. If all hope has gone, as it had after 80 odd minutes the other night, then letting rip can do no further damage.
Those who would prefer that we go down and rebuild might think differently and that is up to them.
The atmosphere at the end of the Bolton game did not cause or contribute to the result. The atmosphere reflected the total inability of everyone (manager, coaching staff and players) to stem the disintegration in the quality of football during the last 30 mins into something that a Sunday Parks Team would have been embarrassed to be associated with.
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Faulkner and Lerner need to help put some dignity back into this club.
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I see where you are coming from to an extent DC5, but on the other hand, our best chance of staying up might be to ditch McLeish now, because a change often brings a fresh impetus. And our best chance of doing that might be if everyone in the ground lets Randy and Faulkner know they want him out in no uncertain terms. But you have a point, maybe wait until the last 10 minutes or so and only give it the verbals if it looks like yet another cock up.
The club’s statement is pretty specific that he is going no-where for the next three games. So whilst you might be right it’s not going to happen so get behind the team and hope we can muddle through despite everything else.
I would tend to agree that RL and PF seem pretty set on flying in the face of public opinion, sanity, and all common and business sense, and keeping AM at the moment, and possibly regardless of whether we go down. But it's possible that the one thing that may sway them is the sight and sound of the bulk of VP expressing their dissent in no uncertain terms. Open to debate of course. I wouldn't advocate it if we're, say, level or a goal up with 10 minutes to go against Spurs, but if we're one or two down and looking clueless, like the other night, then I think giving it both barrels would not be inappropriate.
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Our away support is brilliant. There will be no lack of encouragement at WBA or at Norwich.
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Our away support is brilliant. There will be no lack of encouragement at WBA or at Norwich.
I've been to three away games this season, Wigan, Blackburn and Arsenal. The away support was great at all three but sadly. the performances mostly didn't match the support. If we go down, it won't be because of anything the fans have or haven't done.
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Talking of dignity,if the worse happens and we do get relegated,can i please beg every supporter who will be at Carrow Road to not CRY like 5 year olds like you see every season on national tv and make yourself look a right tit on the Match of the Day cameras
It's toe-curlingly cringy,and the piss taking will be bad enough,never mind having the sight of a 38 year old grown man titty babying in full view of the nation.
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Our away support is brilliant. There will be no lack of encouragement at WBA or at Norwich.
I've been to three away games this season, Wigan, Blackburn and Arsenal. The away support was great at all three but sadly. the performances mostly didn't match the support. If we go down, it won't be because of anything the fans have or haven't done.
Which is what we need to be able to say at the end of the season as well.
And you can bet if there's a poisonous atmosphere at any remaining games we'll get the blame from some quarters.
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the crowd were scrupulously fair on Tuesday night, I thought. It was quite clear who was the object of their scorn, and it wasn't the players. No sane, impartial observer can blame the club's supporters for what's happened this season. The support has been there at the ground. A bit of whingeing on TalkSport and a bit of online hyperbole are irrelevant.
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the crowd were scrupulously fair on Tuesday night, I thought. It was quite clear who was the object of their scorn, and it wasn't the players. No sane, impartial observer can blame the club's supporters for what's happened this season. The support has been there at the ground. A bit of whingeing on TalkSport and a bit of online hyperbole are irrelevant.
How many supposedly sane and impartial observers still think AM is getting stick because of where he came from?
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the crowd were scrupulously fair on Tuesday night, I thought. It was quite clear who was the object of their scorn, and it wasn't the players. No sane, impartial observer can blame the club's supporters for what's happened this season. The support has been there at the ground. A bit of whingeing on TalkSport and a bit of online hyperbole are irrelevant.
I know I shouldn't listen to Talksport, but I did last night. I do feel dirty though if it helps. Anyway somebody claiming to be a Villa fan phoned up and stated how disgusted he was at the Villa fans slagging off the young players on Tuesday, and how if it carried on we deserved to go down.
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I don't listen to TalkSport for the precise reason that he is the kind of caller they put on the air. Wrong, stupid and provocative. But it makes 'great radio', apparently.
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TalkSport is embarrassing to listen to for that reason. Although it has to be said 6-0-6 is often the same, I frequently cringe when I'm listening to it.
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It is either dignity or go down. A time for cool heads all round.
Sorry that's nonsense Dave. They are not mutually exclusive, we can show all the dignity we like but could still go down. It is possible to protest with dignity - see Villa revolution 1968 - but I've absolutely nothing against people venting their feelings at the game the other night,or any other game, because it's the best way to let that idiot owner and his lickspittle know how the fans feel. It may or may not affect the performance, only the players can tell you the true answer to that one, but they can hardly play any worse than they have been recently. And I believe ultimately it's in the best interests of the club to do anything to rid it of that incompetent manager. Sometimes you have to endure pain to get the gain. For me, if we are going down, it's better to go with a fight than with a whimper - to quote a famous poet - "Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light".
All I am saying is that, if we want to stay up, we must get behind the team for the remaining games as nobody could possibly play in the atmosphere as it was at the end of the Bolton game. If all hope has gone, as it had after 80 odd minutes the other night, then letting rip can do no further damage.
Those who would prefer that we go down and rebuild might think differently and that is up to them.
The atmosphere at the end of the Bolton game did not cause or contribute to the result.
...as I said 'if all hope has gone, as it had after 80 odd minutes..'
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On the same sort of subject as the request for a stiff upper lip if the worst happens, can we also refrain from singing 'we are staying up' if we happen to fluke a last minute repreive at Carrow Rd as I'd rather go down than hear that. Likewise, 'we are Premier League' if we come back up.
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Those Villa fans that sung "We'll meet again at Carrow road when we relegated them will have a bit of egg on their face if we fuck it up".... No dignity in that...
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If it does go to the last day. I fancy us to better QPRs result at Man City. My big fear is us getting relegated against Spurs. Unless my CSE 4 maths is way off kilter.
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the crowd were scrupulously fair on Tuesday night, I thought. It was quite clear who was the object of their scorn, and it wasn't the players. No sane, impartial observer can blame the club's supporters for what's happened this season. The support has been there at the ground. A bit of whingeing on TalkSport and a bit of online hyperbole are irrelevant.
What other outlet to our frustrations do we have? Writing to the club? No. They don't respond. Withholding our ST funds? No. We are fans, we'd go if we were playing in Sutton Park. Bed sheets? Not really, too classy. Singing is all we can do. Better get use to it Randy.
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Excellent post Kipeye, 100% agree.
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Those Villa fans that sung "We'll meet again at Carrow road when we relegated them will have a bit of egg on their face if we fuck it up".... No dignity in that...
That's part and parcel of being a supporter. Nobody can win every game. The dignity bit comes with people's behaviour if the worst thing happens.
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I like the sentiment, but I am struggling the reality of our posiion. there is no dignity in being relegated.
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I like the sentiment, but I am struggling the reality of our posiion. there is no dignity in being relegated.
I sang 'we'll meet again' at Norwich with gusto. It would be pathetic to start raging at their fans for returning the compliment. That is my view.
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I like the sentiment, but I am struggling the reality of our posiion. there is no dignity in being relegated.
I sang 'we'll meet again' at Norwich with gusto. It would be pathetic to start raging at their fans for returning the compliment. That is my view.
I thought you believed we could not go down.
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Warm-heartedness reinforces our self-confidence – giving us not a blind confidence, but a sense of confidence based on reason. When you have that you can act transparently, with nothing to hide! Likewise, if you are honest, the community will trust you. Trust brings friendship, as a result of which you can always feel happy. Whether you look to the right or the left, you will always be able to smile.
Can we have the Dalai Llama as our next manager?
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Too late - Aldershot have pipped us with a late bid
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-17865642
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He would have wanted all to be one (nil to them) anyways...
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Warm-heartedness reinforces our self-confidence – giving us not a blind confidence, but a sense of confidence based on reason. When you have that you can act transparently, with nothing to hide! Likewise, if you are honest, the community will trust you. Trust brings friendship, as a result of which you can always feel happy. Whether you look to the right or the left, you will always be able to smile.
Can we have the Dalai Llama as our next manager?
We will have to totally give up possession(s) if we do!
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Imagine no possession
I wonder if you can
No defending from corners
No picking up your man
Imagine the opposition scoring all the goals
You, you may say
I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
I hope for another three points
But at a push I'll live with one
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;D V.G. But I think you got the wrong thread Damon.
And it should be 'live with nil-one'.
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I like the sentiment, but I am struggling the reality of our posiion. there is no dignity in being relegated.
I sang 'we'll meet again' at Norwich with gusto. It would be pathetic to start raging at their fans for returning the compliment. That is my view.
I thought you believed we could not go down.
I didn't think we would go down but it has become more of a possibility as you know.