Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Chris Harte on April 20, 2012, 07:46:34 AM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17746583
Makes some sense, but perhaps he should have talked of the senior players only. Also, his comments about McClaren and fans on the internet don't really stack up seeing who Randy ended up bringing in.
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I agree with everything he said. Alex doesn't have an easy job and the most surprising part of it all was the job offer itself. I'm glad he mentions Eck's inability to set up the team properly.
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same interview he gave to the express which was posted here (http://www.heroesandvillains.info/forumv3/index.php?topic=46676.405). Apart from his comments regarding Steve McLaren, it's hard to argue with much else.
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I think GT was spot on in everything he said.
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Agree with some of it.
Bit harsh making N'Zogbia a scapegoat. Whilst he hasn't had the best of seasons and it doesn't always come off for him, I think he usually tries to look to make things happen in an attacking sense, something the rest of the team does not.
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Agree with some of it.
Bit harsh making N'Zogbia a scapegoat. Whilst he hasn't had the best of seasons and it doesn't always come off for him, I think he usually tries to look to make things happen in an attacking sense, something the rest of the team does not.
I don't think he's making CN'Z scapegoat CBBB, I think he's saying that he was expected to come in and do what Ash was doing straight away, and, if we're all honest about it, he hasn't come anywhere near.
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Agree with some of it.
Bit harsh making N'Zogbia a scapegoat. Whilst he hasn't had the best of seasons and it doesn't always come off for him, I think he usually tries to look to make things happen in an attacking sense, something the rest of the team does not.
I don't think he's making CN'Z scapegoat CBBB, I think he's saying that he was expected to come in and do what Ash was doing straight away, and, if we're all honest about it, he hasn't come anywhere near.
"Young and Downing are two attacking players who are very talented and you are going to miss them. Unfortunately, looking at the replacements, N'Zogbia has been almost a disaster, a major disappointment. He just hasn't produced at all."
He could say that about any player, but he singled out N'Zogbia, which, in my opinion, is a bit harsh.
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I don't think anyone thought that CN'Z would replace Young (and Downing), but he's still been a dissappointment this season, as have most of the senior players.
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Again the same twaddle about him being ex Blues being the reason why we don't like him. Perhaps it's just us?
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Nice to see somebody in the game still cares for us and is prepared to come out and say something quite constructive. Graham Taylor's empathy with the plight of our fans is quite apparent from those comments.
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Nothing startling here, pretty accurate summary.
Will always respect the guy and his opinions.
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No mention of the fact that McCleish is clearly not up to the task. Doesn't he pick the players? Doesn't he appoint the coaches to work with the team on the training ground? Does he not decide the team formation and tactics? Is he not responsible for putting the fire in the belly of the players?
Sorry Sir Graham, heard it all from a hundred other pundits already.
That said, would you be interested in a five match contract?
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No mention of the fact that McCleish is clearly not up to the task. Doesn't he pick the players? Doesn't he appoint the coaches to work with the team on the training ground? Does he not decide the team formation and tactics? Is he not responsible for putting the fire in the belly of the players?
Sorry Sir Graham, heard it all from a hundred other pundits already.
That said, would you be interested in a five match contract?
I agree,
Don't see Nowich, Swansea, Wigan etc... playing the dull uninspred boring awful football that we do.
We are just about the worse team to watch in the Premier League and thats not just due to a couple of players leaving its down to the manager, his style of play and his management skills [all of which are not good enough]
And I couldnt give a damn where he came from as long he did a good job, which he has failed to do
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No mention of the fact that McCleish is clearly not up to the task. Doesn't he pick the players? Doesn't he appoint the coaches to work with the team on the training ground? Does he not decide the team formation and tactics? Is he not responsible for putting the fire in the belly of the players?
Sorry Sir Graham, heard it all from a hundred other pundits already.
That said, would you be interested in a five match contract?
I agree with that, he does seem to be largely excusing Mcleish. He is the root of the problem and some of the players have been shocking as well.
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Agree with some of it.
Bit harsh making N'Zogbia a scapegoat. Whilst he hasn't had the best of seasons and it doesn't always come off for him, I think he usually tries to look to make things happen in an attacking sense, something the rest of the team does not.
I don't think he's making CN'Z scapegoat CBBB, I think he's saying that he was expected to come in and do what Ash was doing straight away, and, if we're all honest about it, he hasn't come anywhere near.
"Young and Downing are two attacking players who are very talented and you are going to miss them. Unfortunately, looking at the replacements, N'Zogbia has been almost a disaster, a major disappointment. He just hasn't produced at all."
He could say that about any player, but he singled out N'Zogbia, which, in my opinion, is a bit harsh.
I see your point
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Again the same twaddle about him being ex Blues being the reason why we don't like him. Perhaps it's just us?
Of the many Villa supporters that I talk to in the real world, I have never heard ONE deride him for his Dog Shit connections.
To a man they've all complained about his poor brand of football and all round sub standard management.
Despite what the media say, he's had an amazingly easy ride at Villa Park.
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to be fair to Taylor, he never ever slags off managers. Listen to him doing his punditry and he is always very diplomatic when it comes to discussing other managers
Maybe because he was treated so absolutely shitly ( a proper word?) when he was the England manager that he knows what it feels like to have the world against you and he refuses to add to the pressure that other managers may be under.
I'd like to think that he's far too decent a man to join in when someone's taking a kicking.
This doesnt alter my views on McCleish, by the way, it just reinforces my opinion of Tayor
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I also think he's being unfair on N'Zogbia. He stated his best position was wide left and he hasn't looked too bad in that position on the occasions he's been allowed to play there. Great goal against QPR, and a good set-up of Keane's goal at Newcastle, I think he was just coming into a bit of form when he got crocked. I think he's been at at least as good as Downing was in his first season with us, and I'd say better than Downing's first season at 'The Mighty Reds YNWA'.
I can't argue with the rest of what SGT says although I still have doubts about the McLaren U-turn.
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Again the same twaddle about him being ex Blues being the reason why we don't like him. Perhaps it's just us?
Completely agree TS. Forgetting McLeish's tactical deficiencies for a moment (and there are many of those); the question I've never heard a satisfactory response to is why Randy made an appointment that was always going to be divisive, at a time when the club desperately needed everybody to get behind the new manager. You didn't have to be Mystic Meg to know how this was going to turn out.
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No mention of the fact that McCleish is clearly not up to the task. Doesn't he pick the players? Doesn't he appoint the coaches to work with the team on the training ground? Does he not decide the team formation and tactics? Is he not responsible for putting the fire in the belly of the players?
Sorry Sir Graham, heard it all from a hundred other pundits already.
That said, would you be interested in a five match contract?
how realistic is that? Do you expect a man as dignified as GT to go to the press saying 'McLeish is shit'? If you read between the lines of what he actually said, he's more or less saying Mcleish is sending the villa out to 'not lose'. Read what he does say! 'It's better to lose having tried to win'. If that's not a dig at the manager's tactics, and their suitability for a club the size of villa, I don't know what is.
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well said graham, I liked this bit
"If you are preparing your side not to lose - and I'm sure Alex would disagree, but that's how it looks - then, if you don't win that game, you come in for a great deal of criticism and that's what's been happening at Villa."
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Again the same twaddle about him being ex Blues being the reason why we don't like him. Perhaps it's just us?
The thing is, even before he was appointed there was a demonstration at Villa Park with dickheads climbing the railings and chanting anti-Blues songs, and no matter what we say on here you can scan the Villa interweb and see many 'Bluenose' references to McLeish, so it's not hard to see that pundits who don't regularly sit amongst the crowd or post on H&V will still think that part of the McLeish problem is that he came from "them".
Annoying? Yes.
Understandable given the behaviour of some of our more vocal minority? Also yes.
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Classic mentality of football closing ranks around football, the arrogant "Football knows best" mentality, the notion that there is some kind of other dimension that says if you are a football manager you simply can't get it wrong, it has to be the players, I played for years and my impression of players is that they are like sponges, if your a good man manager and able to get your message across, then any players will absorb what you are telling them and carry that out on the field of play, football is that simple.
Said it before I guarantee there are blokes running small firms up and down the country right this second who, because survival depends on it, have to be excellent man managers and excellent business strategists these fella's with a crash course in basic football and team building knowledge could step into the boots of the very best managers out that and do a better job, Jose Mourinho is a classic example of how psychology and man management is just as, or more important than previously being player, whereas Alex McLeish is proof perfect as to how you can have played the game but know nothing about motivating men.
Taylor IMO is wrong on this.
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SGT seems a decent bloke and i'm sure he means what he says but AM took the job knowing the restrictions and on a hefty salary. No sympathy.
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What concerns me the most at this particular stage of the season, is the bit about the "McLeish Out" flyers that are supposed to be handed out tomorrow.
Tomorrow we need to get behind the team and I can't see that helping the cause whatsoever.
Assuming we stay up, show your feelings after the walk of shame after the last match against Spurs - not tomorrow.
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The 67-year-old, who led Villa to second place in 1990 before becoming England manager, explained: "I just think it's better to lose a game by trying to win it. I don't expect everyone to agree with me but it's better for the supporters, spectators and the game as a whole.
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The 67-year-old, who led Villa to second place in 1990 before becoming England manager, explained: "I just think it's better to lose a game by trying to win it. I don't expect everyone to agree with me but it's better for the supporters, spectators and the game as a whole.
That is the implied criticism, which is as far as close as anyone in the little cliquey network of football managers and ex-managers has come to criticising McLeish openly (much as I love SGT, hes definitely in that old-boys' network).
However, it does really annoy me that he plays up the Blues angle like everyone else. It's just not fecking true, and I think we've all had about enough of it from the 'neutral' pundits who either don't like us or don't care, without someone as revered as SGT joining in as well. Disappointing.
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What concerns me the most at this particular stage of the season, is the bit about the "McLeish Out" flyers that are supposed to be handed out tomorrow.
Tomorrow we need to get behind the team and I can't see that helping the cause whatsoever.
Assuming we stay up, show your feelings after the walk of shame after the last match against Spurs - not tomorrow.
This is my view too. How about a protest similar to that Boro fan with Mclaren a few years back ? Of course these days it's season cards rather than season books so I've been out in the garden and tried it with mine. You can actually get a good velocity and distance with them (the secrets in the wrist action). Direction is more difficult once they have travelled a few yards and you may miss Mcleish completely as it veers off course. But not to worry, its Spurz so you might get `Arry instead.
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Hmmm, chucking your season ticket card at the manager after the last game of the season probably won't have the desired symbolic effect.
I'd prefer some sort of dirty protest
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The 67-year-old, who led Villa to second place in 1990 before becoming England manager, explained: "I just think it's better to lose a game by trying to win it. I don't expect everyone to agree with me but it's better for the supporters, spectators and the game as a whole.
That is the implied criticism, which is as far as close as anyone in the little cliquey network of football managers and ex-managers has come to criticising McLeish openly (much as I love SGT, hes definitely in that old-boys' network).
However, it does really annoy me that he plays up the Blues angle like everyone else. It's just not fecking true,
The sad thing is though, it is true. Even if he'd kept Blues up last year, i still think there would have been hostility towards his appointment.
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The 67-year-old, who led Villa to second place in 1990 before becoming England manager, explained: "I just think it's better to lose a game by trying to win it. I don't expect everyone to agree with me but it's better for the supporters, spectators and the game as a whole.
That is the implied criticism, which is as far as close as anyone in the little cliquey network of football managers and ex-managers has come to criticising McLeish openly (much as I love SGT, hes definitely in that old-boys' network).
However, it does really annoy me that he plays up the Blues angle like everyone else. It's just not fecking true,
The sad thing is though, it is true. Even if he'd kept Blues up last year, i still think there would have been hostility towards his appointment.
Well yeah, because he's rubbish regardless. Had Blues finished mid-table-to-top-half playing nice football and winning a few games (not to mention admirers, something they were, and we are, conspicuously short of) I for one would not have objected. In fact, if he were a good manager, the fact that he came from Blues would have been a petty little bonus, a nice thought that we can just pinch anyone we want from them. The fact that we paid them for his services is just astonishing.
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The 67-year-old, who led Villa to second place in 1990 before becoming England manager, explained: "I just think it's better to lose a game by trying to win it. I don't expect everyone to agree with me but it's better for the supporters, spectators and the game as a whole.
That is the implied criticism, which is as far as close as anyone in the little cliquey network of football managers and ex-managers has come to criticising McLeish openly (much as I love SGT, hes definitely in that old-boys' network).
However, it does really annoy me that he plays up the Blues angle like everyone else. It's just not fecking true,
The sad thing is though, it is true. Even if he'd kept Blues up last year, i still think there would have been hostility towards his appointment.
Well yeah, because he's rubbish regardless. Had Blues finished mid-table-to-top-half playing nice football and winning a few games (not to mention admirers, something they were, and we are, conspicuously short of) I for one would not have objected. In fact, if he were a good manager, the fact that he came from Blues would have been a petty little bonus, a nice thought that we can just pinch anyone we want from them. The fact that we paid them for his services is just astonishing.
I'm still stunned like most people that his name was even on their shortlist bearing in mind most fans would'nt have had him in their top 20.
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Agreed, Clampy. Perhaps Graham's most damning comment is that he's "surprised" McLeish was offered the job. That says a lot.
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I do wonder what the reaction would have been if he'd left Small Heath the week after they'd won the League Cup, with his record including a succession of promotion, top half finish, mid-table and a trophy.
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I do wonder what the reaction would have been if he'd left Small Heath the week after they'd won the League Cup, with his record including a succession of promotion, top half finish, mid-table and a trophy.
Promotion isn't much to boast about, seeing as he got them relegated in the first place.
For me, it wouldn't have changed anything - the stultifyingly negative football was still there
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I do wonder what the reaction would have been if he'd left Small Heath the week after they'd won the League Cup, with his record including a succession of promotion, top half finish, mid-table and a trophy.
It still would'nt have gone down well in some quarters but the appointment would have been more acceptable obviously. Giving it to him when they did though........
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I do wonder what the reaction would have been if he'd left Small Heath the week after they'd won the League Cup, with his record including a succession of promotion, top half finish, mid-table and a trophy.
I’m sure there would have been the usual numpties holding up badly written banners on the North Stand car park, but I suspect that more would have given him the benefit of the doubt. Having said all that, many on here who are now anti-McLeish did give him the benefit of the doubt, but lost patience when he simply resorted to type.
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I do wonder what the reaction would have been if he'd left Small Heath the week after they'd won the League Cup, with his record including a succession of promotion, top half finish, mid-table and a trophy.
Promotion isn't much to boast about, seeing as he got them relegated in the first place.
For me, it wouldn't have changed anything - the stultifyingly negative football was still there
Exactly. His football has such a glass ceiling.
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I do wonder what the reaction would have been if he'd left Small Heath the week after they'd won the League Cup, with his record including a succession of promotion, top half finish, mid-table and a trophy.
It still would'nt have gone down well in some quarters but the appointment would have been more acceptable obviously. Giving it to him when they did though........
I agree that it was utterly incomprehensible, but I do wonder if the Small Heath thing would have still made him unpopular at any time.
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I think Sir Graham is right in everything he says. Firstly, the players haven't come anywhere near performing consistently well this season and I'm sure he singled out N'Zogbia as he was our big signing who was supposed to soften the blow of losing Downing and Young. He also didn't fall into the lazy trap of saying we don't like him because he is ex blues, he just pointed out that someone coming from them is going to need to get off to a better start than if they had come from somewhere else. He followed that by saying our problem with him was that he appears to send the side out not to lose rather than to win. He is fair enough to point out the difference in circumstances AM has to work in compared to MON and then comes up with the quote 'it's better to lose a game by trying to win it' which should be pinned up in the dressing room for the remaining games as far as I'm concerned.
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I do wonder what the reaction would have been if he'd left Small Heath the week after they'd won the League Cup, with his record including a succession of promotion, top half finish, mid-table and a trophy.
It still would'nt have gone down well in some quarters but the appointment would have been more acceptable obviously. Giving it to him when they did though........
I agree that it was utterly incomprehensible, but I do wonder if the Small Heath thing would have still made him unpopular at any time.
As others have said I think if he'd been seen as a good Small Heath manager, which I suppose he was for a couple of weeks after winning the League Cup, then that would have been seen as a positive rather than a negative. I'm sure there would have been crowing about getting their joint most successful manager ever.
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He also didn't fall into the lazy trap of saying we don't like him because he is ex blues, he just pointed out that someone coming from them is going to need to get off to a better start than if they had come from somewhere else.
That's the same thing isn't it? I mean, I don't factor in the Blues thing at all, I couldn't care less.
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In a dream I had, Randy comes to his senses, cleans house, Sir Graham comes back as chairman and is asked to breathe life back into the club as he did back in the late 80's I don't agree with everything in the article but as with most things Graham Taylor find myself agreeing with almost everything the man says. He loves Aston Villa, and aside from some of the buffoons who hammered him during his second stint, most of us appreciate all that he has done for the club even after his last departure.
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I do wonder what the reaction would have been if he'd left Small Heath the week after they'd won the League Cup, with his record including a succession of promotion, top half finish, mid-table and a trophy.
It still would'nt have gone down well in some quarters but the appointment would have been more acceptable obviously. Giving it to him when they did though........
I agree that it was utterly incomprehensible, but I do wonder if the Small Heath thing would have still made him unpopular at any time.
Would there ever be a circumstance where a manager could come directly to us from Small Heath with no protest? How about if it had been one who had had real success there, lets look back in their history at those managers who have had real su.........................Oh.
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I do wonder what the reaction would have been if he'd left Small Heath the week after they'd won the League Cup, with his record including a succession of promotion, top half finish, mid-table and a trophy.
Whatever the reaction, we'd still be in this position now and facing an uphill struggle to stay up next season.
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The Small thing didn't bother me in the slightest but it does for so many. Instead of just 'f off mcleish' its 'f off mcleish you bluenose wanker'
I'd gladly take Chris Houghton off their hands, many others wouldn't. But I doubt there would be protests....
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Again the same twaddle about him being ex Blues being the reason why we don't like him. Perhaps it's just us?
Maybe subconsciously we do give him a harder time because he is ex blues but how do you know when everything is bloody awful ?
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Again the same twaddle about him being ex Blues being the reason why we don't like him. Perhaps it's just us?
Maybe subconsciously we do give him a harder time because he is ex blues but how do you know when everything is bloody awful ?
On the contrary,I think he's had a much easier time from the fans than Houllier last season
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Again the same twaddle about him being ex Blues being the reason why we don't like him. Perhaps it's just us?
do you think ? Last year was crap but I thought (Maybe alone) that it was working towards a new goal a new type of football.
so eased Houlier
this year I think ............ nothing no hope just struggle
Maybe subconsciously we do give him a harder time because he is ex blues but how do you know when everything is bloody awful ?
On the contrary,I think he's had a much easier time from the fans than Houllier last season
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I do wonder what the reaction would have been if he'd left Small Heath the week after they'd won the League Cup, with his record including a succession of promotion, top half finish, mid-table and a trophy.
Promotion isn't much to boast about, seeing as he got them relegated in the first place.
For me, it wouldn't have changed anything - the stultifyingly negative football was still there
Wouldn't change anything for me either. I'm against him because we are so desperately poor from a results and aesthetic point of view, it has nothing to do with where he came from.
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do you think ? Last year was crap but I thought (Maybe alone) that it was working towards a new goal a new type of football.
so eased Houlier
this year I think ............ nothing no hope just struggle
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Again the same twaddle about him being ex Blues being the reason why we don't like him. Perhaps it's just us?
Maybe subconsciously we do give him a harder time because he is ex blues but how do you know when everything is bloody awful ?
On the contrary,I think he's had a much easier time from the fans than Houllier last season
Agreed, I think the media making a big thing of the ex-blues angle has meant that a lot of fans have held back with protesting (other than complaining on the internet) in an attempt to show the media we're not as small-minded and pathetic as they're trying to portray.
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He also didn't fall into the lazy trap of saying we don't like him because he is ex blues, he just pointed out that someone coming from them is going to need to get off to a better start than if they had come from somewhere else.
That's the same thing isn't it? I mean, I don't factor in the Blues thing at all, I couldn't care less.
The where he came from thing has been massively exaggerated in the media to the point where they have almost ignored the fact that it just might be the style of play and results that we are not happy about. Having said that, to go the other way and suggest his previous club is totally irrelevant to every single one of our supporters would for me be equally untrue.
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If AM had been managing say... Burnley, Blackburn or Bolton and he'd just got them relegated how would we have felt about him being appointed as our new manager? not exactly a champagne moment. We then have a negative, uninspiring start to the season followed by worse - what would the feeling towards the manager have been like? The media have got the ex-Blues thing wrong.
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He also didn't fall into the lazy trap of saying we don't like him because he is ex blues, he just pointed out that someone coming from them is going to need to get off to a better start than if they had come from somewhere else.
That's the same thing isn't it? I mean, I don't factor in the Blues thing at all, I couldn't care less.
The where he came from thing has been massively exaggerated in the media to the point where they have almost ignored the fact that it just might be the style of play and results that we are not happy about. Having said that, to go the other way and suggest his previous club is totally irrelevant to every single one of our supporters would for me be equally untrue.
Oh I agree, doubtless there are those for whom it is an issue. But I would go as far as to say it's a minority issue, and even those who do use it against him don't care as much, as you say, as the media would suggest.
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He also didn't fall into the lazy trap of saying we don't like him because he is ex blues, he just pointed out that someone coming from them is going to need to get off to a better start than if they had come from somewhere else.
That's the same thing isn't it? I mean, I don't factor in the Blues thing at all, I couldn't care less.
The where he came from thing has been massively exaggerated in the media to the point where they have almost ignored the fact that it just might be the style of play and results that we are not happy about. Having said that, to go the other way and suggest his previous club is totally irrelevant to every single one of our supporters would for me be equally untrue.
Oh I agree, doubtless there are those for whom it is an issue. But I would go as far as to say it's a minority issue, and even those who do use it against him don't care as much, as you say, as the media would suggest.
For a small minority it's a reason and for a small minority of them it's the main reason.
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I agree with most of what he said, but he missed out one salient point, McLeish is a crap manager.
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The most important thing about people thinking we dislike him because he used to manage them is that Randy and Faulkner need not to be fooled that that is the reason.
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The most important thing about people thinking we dislike him because he used to manage them is that Randy and Faulkner need not to be fooled that that is the reason.
That is potentially the biggest problem of all, I hope they have more intelligence than that and they can see with their own eyes that we are dreadful. Also that they've been duped by Ferguson.
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He also didn't fall into the lazy trap of saying we don't like him because he is ex blues, he just pointed out that someone coming from them is going to need to get off to a better start than if they had come from somewhere else.
That's the same thing isn't it? I mean, I don't factor in the Blues thing at all, I couldn't care less.
The where he came from thing has been massively exaggerated in the media to the point where they have almost ignored the fact that it just might be the style of play and results that we are not happy about. Having said that, to go the other way and suggest his previous club is totally irrelevant to every single one of our supporters would for me be equally untrue.
Oh I agree, doubtless there are those for whom it is an issue. But I would go as far as to say it's a minority issue, and even those who do use it against him don't care as much, as you say, as the media would suggest.
For a small minority it's a reason and for a small minority of them it's the main reason.
I think most people dislike hime due to crap results and performances, but of those some never liked him in the first place becuase of where he came from.
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He also didn't fall into the lazy trap of saying we don't like him because he is ex blues, he just pointed out that someone coming from them is going to need to get off to a better start than if they had come from somewhere else.
That's the same thing isn't it? I mean, I don't factor in the Blues thing at all, I couldn't care less.
The where he came from thing has been massively exaggerated in the media to the point where they have almost ignored the fact that it just might be the style of play and results that we are not happy about. Having said that, to go the other way and suggest his previous club is totally irrelevant to every single one of our supporters would for me be equally untrue.
Oh I agree, doubtless there are those for whom it is an issue. But I would go as far as to say it's a minority issue, and even those who do use it against him don't care as much, as you say, as the media would suggest.
For a small minority it's a reason and for a small minority of them it's the main reason.
Bang on.
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The main reason is that he is crap.
The fact that he came from Blues makes it even worse.
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I have linked this on my facebook page, and coupled it with my $0.02 on the matter as below:
Graham, your position in Villa's history is secure. However...
"A number of Villa players must look at themselves and ask 'have I, every time, committed myself to the cause?'" said Taylor.
Undoubtedly true. However, the best managers find a way of motivating each player. Ron Saunders got it spot on, sometimes an arm round the shoulder, sometimes a kick up the backside....
'Taylor also feels Alex McLeish's association with city rivals Birmingham has made life difficult for the Villa manager, who left St Andrew's to become Villa boss last June.
"There was always going to be a group of fans who would never accept Alex," said Taylor.'
Oh Graham, I thought you'd've been above this old chestnut...yes there were a small band who wouldn't accept AMc because of his Blue link. However, there were more, far more, of us, who didn't want him at Villa because we didn't think he would be a good enough manager for the club. This was exactly the same reason why we successfully campaigned against Steve McLaren, a man with no Blues link, taking the job.
As a reference, I doubt many Villa fans would mind Chris Hughton taking over to Villa Park next season, if Blues don't get promoted...
"Some of the supporters have moaned and groaned because they feel Alex has set up his teams not to lose as opposed to set them up to win," said Taylor.
"It's an easy thing to say. The money hasn't been available to Alex that had been to Martin. There was a big financial deficit and that couldn't continue."
How does b follow a? Yes perhaps AMc didn't have the squad that MO'N did. But what's that got to do with positive tactics?...
...and anyway, this is something that you agree with at the end of the piece...
'Taylor would like to see a more attacking style of play from his former club.
The 67-year-old, who led Villa to second place in 1990 before becoming England manager, explained: "I just think it's better to lose a game by trying to win it. I don't expect everyone to agree with me but it's better for the supporters, spectators and the game as a whole.
"If you are preparing your side not to lose - I'm sure Alex would disagree, but that's how it looks - then, if you don't win that game, you come in for a great deal of criticism. That's what's been happening at Villa."
Discussing the atmosphere at the club, he added: "It's created a very downtrodden air when you go to Villa.
"People are worried, they're not happy, they're gloomy and that doesn't help trying to get results on the pitch."
Precisely...you've just talked yourself round to our argument...thanks Graham...but why have a go at fans for essentially agreeing with what you say at the end here? GT your legend, as I said, is secure at Villa. But please don't taint it with criticisms of fans which you can't back up...
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I've never called him a blue nosed wanker, a wanker a ****** and many other things but the blue nose bit never comes into it for me, I just knew he played terrible defensive football there and he brought it here like many said he would
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I've never called him a blue nosed wanker, a wanker a c*** and many other things but the blue nose bit never comes into it for me, I just knew he played terrible defensive football there and he brought it here like many said he would
Indeed...
...something else I forgot to say about GT's piece was regarding his assertion that we were on AMc's back from the off because it wasn't 'win, win, win' from the off. Actually, that is not the case. After our (so far penultimate) home win against Norwich on 5 Nov we stood 8th, just 4 points behind the European places. And I, personally, remember thinking at that time, well, ok, this isn't too bad, perhaps he might be able to do something for us after all...it's since about then, however...well, 20 points from the following 22 games tells its own story...
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In all honesty, I've forgot sometimes when we've had debates on here exactly where he came from.
The first thing I think about him is Rangers.
I'd say the vast majority of supporters are against him because he is a piss poor Manager that implements piss poor football, which I also believe is a factor in the poor form of both Gabby and N'Zogbia and to a lesser extent, Albrighton.
If it looks like shit, smells like shit and tastes like shit.
Then it probably is shit.
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Oh, and excellent replies to Sir Graham's article by Martyn Bentsmith.
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Oh, and excellent replies to Sir Graham's article by Martyn Bentsmith.
I wonder if there is any way of getting such feedback to Graham Taylor, so that next time he is asked his opinion he won't trot out the tired Blues line. He's not on Twitter is he?
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This from the same article:
In 16 home games this season, Alex McLeish's team have won just four games. Villa's record low in a season is six (which happened from 19 matches in 2005-6 and also from 21 matches in 1994-5). In 1889-90, they won six and five in 1890-91 - but only 11 home matches were played in those seasons.
This, in a nutshell for me, is why the current manager deserves to be relieved of his duties, barring an incredible, and unlikely, turnaround in form.
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Think generally well thought out comments from Graham Taylor and yes the managers are an old boys network and most don't like upsetting others - hence the coded piece on not appearing to play positive football.
The coming from the Blues thing bothers me not a jot - I would take Hughton tomorrow if it meant getting rid of the current incumbent. In fact, I hate the fact that our fans even bother singing about That Lot. Ever. At its' worst it only drags us to down to their level.
McLeish did not sleep walk into this job - he knew the circumstances and therefore knew he has to hit the ground running - proving that his tactics are not negative (contrary to all recent history at Rangers, Scotland and Blues) and ensuring a respectable top half finish. His 3 outfield signings have worked out terrible. The 2 pomising players from last year (Albrighton and Bannan) look a shell of those players this season. And he had fewer trouble makers to deal with compared to the Clueless Domenech-Backing Houllier.
In fact when her arrived some of the senior players probably breathed a sigh of relief they didn;t have to deal with Houllier's 'quirky' methods and apparent aloofness.
He has failed to deliver in results and performances - witness a limp exit from the League Cup and wins against 2 bottom tier teams from 2 cup runs.
Couple with that with relegation style form who on earth could make a case for him doing a good job?
Yep some of the players haven't done their job and please never ever blame fans for the ills of a club. Yes we are fickle but no fans, no club and most fans didn't want him prior to his appointment, then gave him a chance and are no fed up that their fears have materialised.
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'Taylor also feels Alex McLeish's association with city rivals Birmingham has made life difficult for the Villa manager, who left St Andrew's to become Villa boss last June.
"There was always going to be a group of fans who would never accept Alex," said Taylor.'
Oh Graham, I thought you'd've been above this old chestnut...yes there were a small band who wouldn't accept AMc because of his Blue link. However, there were more, far more, of us, who didn't want him at Villa because we didn't think he would be a good enough manager for the club. This was exactly the same reason why we successfully campaigned against Steve McLaren, a man with no Blues link, taking the job.
What's the difference a 'group of fans' and a 'small band' that makes you right and him wrong?
I actually think what's saying with this bit is spot on. There is a tribal element of the support (which would exist at any club) who will never accept him. What GT doesn't say (but the tone of the article implies it) is that the piss poor football has quickly made those fans more vocal and that perception has been increased.
I do agree that the finance comments leading on to the poor football do seem odd but that could easily be down to the reporter.
Forget the order and filler, just read the quotes as stand alone and you can clearly see that he thinks McLeish has made a lot of the problems for himself and needs to change style to get fans onside.
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A question to all of you in Brum. Does Ron Saunders ever feature in local press and media? I wonder what his thoughts are.
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If we looked half decent and seemed to be heading in the right direction I wouldn't give a rats where he was from.
There are some though that wouldn't take to him no matter how we were doing. Looks at Spurs with George Graham, even when he was winning them the league cup he was still "man in a raincoat" to an element of their support.
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Indeed...
...something else I forgot to say about GT's piece was regarding his assertion that we were on AMc's back from the off because it wasn't 'win, win, win' from the off. Actually, that is not the case. After our (so far penultimate) home win against Norwich on 5 Nov we stood 8th, just 4 points behind the European places. And I, personally, remember thinking at that time, well, ok, this isn't too bad, perhaps he might be able to do something for us after all...it's since about then, however...well, 20 points from the following 22 games tells its own story...
That's right; after all the initial resistance and concern there was a stage earlier this season when I did begin to wonder whether we'd be in for a top half finish. The question marks against that were that we'd had a pretty gentle start to the season, and that McLeish's team selection was a bit suspect, and true enough, we got found out when the fixtures got difficult. Since then, it's been downhill most of the way. I'd defy any club's fans not to voice their dismay given a similar run of results and performances.
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Obviously the Blues connection does play a part.
It's bad that we appointed a poor manager.
It's worse that we helped Blues by helping them to get rid of a poor manager.
And the worst of it is that we also handed them a lot of money in the process.
To some, it's the combination of appointing a poor manager and the "act of charity" towards (what some would say is) our worst rivals.
In a way, we are now suffering because we were kind to the Blues. That doesn't make sense.
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If it looks like shit, smells like shit and tastes like shit.
Then it probably is shit.
Could be cat food. Though in this instance you're right.
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90% right Sir Graham. Ron Saunders is happily retired in Knowle. Have seen him in One Stop on occasions. He is more likely to comment on milk prices..
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I wasn't keen on his football when we signed him up but was determined to give him a chance.
Th early fixtures were easy and we did OK. Very few of us were demanding his removal then.
It all went to ratshit from December though and has never recovered. I gave up on him after Wigan away when he played for a nil nil at a team that couldn't score for toffee at the time.
I am still agog at the decision to appoint him in the first place mind. I well recall having an incredulous Woodhall on the phone in the summer when I told him who was headed for the hot seat.
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GT is spot on with much of what he says in this article.
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At the risk of being repetitive, the one thing that made me more patient with Houllier than McLeish is that the former at least seemed to have an idea of what he wanted to do. GH was criticised for trying to change things too fast, but at least he tried to change things when it was bloody obvious that we needed to change things.
It's still obvious that we need to change things, but I get the feeling that McLeish is just planning more of the same. And that's the main reason why I'm starting to give up on him. This season is almost gone: results have been shit, and the football largely dire. If he could somehow make a convincing case that next season will be different, then I'd might just be willing to see if he could do that -- if only for the sake of continuity. No successful club change their manager every season.
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I read into that article as much criticism of McL as a man of GT's integrity would make in public.
- he criticised the team's set-up;
- he implied that McL was looking for draws / damage limitation;
- he implicitly criticised his man-management;
- he effectively attacked his 'starman signing', N'Zog; criticism by proxy.
He softened his comments with the lead about the players and the Blues connections, but essentially this is a critical article about the manager.
I would like to think it might have some traction with more influential people around B6, but maybe it's too subtle for them.
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'I have in my hand a letter' would trump any criticism of McLeish anyway, no doubt.
You'd hope they wouldn't need any other proof than their own eyes and ears but... well, who knows.
I agree with most of SGT's comments anyway apart from the slant that we don't like or accept him because of his Blose connections, rather than for being shite.
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I agree with most of SGT's comments anyway apart from the slant that we don't like or accept him because of his Blose connections, rather than for being shite.
It's plain to all of us, but when (if) he finally departs, the media and Ferguson will forever bleat that we just couldn't get over the Dog Shit connection.
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And he can keep his big red nose (and poison pen) out of our affairs.
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And he can keep his big red nose (and poison pen) out of our affairs.
Could do with him sending another letter, the original one is drenched in Lerner's fuckmuck.
If he can laminate it, so much the better.
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I read into that article as much criticism of McL as a man of GT's integrity would make in public.
- he criticised the team's set-up;
- he implied that McL was looking for draws / damage limitation;
- he implicitly criticised his man-management;
- he effectively attacked his 'starman signing', N'Zog; criticism by proxy.
He softened his comments with the lead about the players and the Blues connections, but essentially this is a critical article about the manager.
I would like to think it might have some traction with more influential people around B6, but maybe it's too subtle for them.
Those 4 points virtually sum up most Villa fans opinions of the team.
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GT is spot on with much of what he says in this article.
This
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In his own way, Graham Taylor has delivered a damning verdict on the management of McLeish. Totally agree with much of the article, talks sense
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The only thing I disagree with is the money spent issue. McLeish has had SOME money. He bought a right back who's shit and no better than Lichaj, or Herd, so did we really need to buy a right back at all? Given cost a few quid, although isn't a bad keeper, I wonder whether we could got cheaper, or given Brad his head. Zog was ten mill. Whilst many of us wanted him to sign, Eck has managed to get sod all out of him and turn him into a useless lump. I am really pleased that the media thing is beginning to gather pace. Once they get their claws into someone, there is only one likely conclusion. Bye bye Eck.
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The main reason is that he is crap.
The fact that he came from Blues makes it even worse.
Good try.
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I agree with most of SGT's comments anyway apart from the slant that we don't like or accept him because of his Blose connections, rather than for being shite.
It's plain to all of us, but when (if) he finally departs, the media and Ferguson will forever bleat that we just couldn't get over the Dog Shit connection.
As long as he's out of here and we then have a manager that sends out a team to put up a fight at ManUre or wherever we play I really couldn't give a damn what that old soak thinks about us !
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I agree with most of SGT's comments anyway apart from the slant that we don't like or accept him because of his Blose connections, rather than for being shite.
It's plain to all of us, but when (if) he finally departs, the media and Ferguson will forever bleat that we just couldn't get over the Dog Shit connection.
As long as he's out of here and we then have a manager that sends out a team to put up a fight at ManUre or wherever we play I really couldn't give a damn what that old soak thinks about us !
Agreed. It's a small price to pay for having shot of McLeish. At least WE know the truth, that's all that matters.
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I agree with most of SGT's comments anyway apart from the slant that we don't like or accept him because of his Blose connections, rather than for being shite.
It's plain to all of us, but when (if) he finally departs, the media and Ferguson will forever bleat that we just couldn't get over the Dog Shit connection.
As long as he's out of here and we then have a manager that sends out a team to put up a fight at ManUre or wherever we play I really couldn't give a damn what that old soak thinks about us !
Agreed. It's a small price to pay for having shot of McLeish. At least WE know the truth, that's all that matters.
Who is this 'WE' that you claim to represent?
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"We" being the fans of Aston Villa.
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"We" being the fans of Aston Villa.
As in "We, the people"?
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Who is this 'WE' that you claim to represent?
The majority of Villa supporters who know that Honest Alex is doing a very, very poor job.
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I read into that article as much criticism of McL as a man of GT's integrity would make in public.
- he criticised the team's set-up;
- he implied that McL was looking for draws / damage limitation;
- he implicitly criticised his man-management;
- he effectively attacked his 'starman signing', N'Zog; criticism by proxy.
He softened his comments with the lead about the players and the Blues connections, but essentially this is a critical article about the manager.
I would like to think it might have some traction with more influential people around B6, but maybe it's too subtle for them.
Those 4 points virtually sum up most Villa fans opinions of the team.
Which makes him? - a Villa fan, I suppose!
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Who is this 'WE' that you claim to represent?
The majority of Villa supporters who know that Honest Alex is doing a very, very poor job.
Precisely I can't understand how any Villa fan would think he's doing a good job, in any sense of the word. We're terrible to watch with awful results.
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I agree with most of SGT's comments anyway apart from the slant that we don't like or accept him because of his Blose connections, rather than for being shite.
It's plain to all of us, but when (if) he finally departs, the media and Ferguson will forever bleat that we just couldn't get over the Dog Shit connection.
As long as he's out of here and we then have a manager that sends out a team to put up a fight at ManUre or wherever we play I really couldn't give a damn what that old soak thinks about us !
Agreed. It's a small price to pay for having shot of McLeish. At least WE know the truth, that's all that matters.
Who is this 'WE' that you claim to represent?
Seemingly everybody apart from you.
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Do i detect a McLeish supporter?
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I support McLeish.