Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: brian green on April 16, 2012, 07:41:57 AM
-
Having thought overnight about the situation we are in and McLeish's supine grovelling about coming to the Theatre of Dreams with his young lions, I have decided that I will take relegation if that is what it needs to rid us of this manager. The Championship without him is preferable to Premiership survival with another season of enduring everything he inflicts on us. We have to rid Villa Park of him, and everything he represents before we can go anywhere ever again.
-
Not for me Brian.
You're assuming that relegation would mean the end for him and i'm not sure that would be the case.
I want Lerner to come to his senses and jettison this absolute nightmare of a man, then make a fresh start for next season.
-
Worst thing that could happen to us!
You think we are on a budget now... With championship money think randy would throw a "yard" sale at the back of the holte end selling everything from players to 20,000 plastic seats that won't be used!
Resulting in us with a totally asset stripped club with kids making up the team struggling to make play offs....
-
I think we need to do everything possible to avoid relegation - absolute disaster that would be.
Perversly, I think AML is more adept to get a Championship team promoted than he is to then keep one in the Permier League.
-
Well if we survive this year and keep McLeish we'll go down next year.
May as well bite the bullet this year, get him out and rebuild.
If I could pick between going down this season - or having another season like this one and going down then - I'd pick this one.
Obviously I'd much rather we stay up and Eck get's fucked uff.
-
Worst thing that could happen to us!
You think we are on a budget now... With championship money think randy would throw a "yard" sale at the back of the holte end selling everything from players to 20,000 plastic seats that won't be used!
Didn't do Newcastle any harm. They're pushing for a Champions League spot within two seasons of us relegating them. McLeish has been a disaster of Billy McNeill proportions and look what happened within a couple of seasons of him taking us down too. I'm with you Brian, get down and get rid.
-
Not for me. No guarantee we'd do a Newcastle. There are Sheffield Wednesdays and Leeds we should also consider.
-
Well if we survive this year and keep McLeish we'll go down next year.
May as well bite the bullet this year, get him out and rebuild.
If I could pick between going down this season - or having another season like this one and going down then - I'd pick this one.
Obviously I'd much rather we stay up and Eck get's fucked uff.
I agree totally with Summers. If we don't go down this year then we almost certainly will next, after another season of mind-numbingly depressing football. So, if relegation now gets its all done a year sooner then I'd go for that (as long as it gets rid of AM).
-
The lure of competing in a proper league is actually quite appealing. If we went down, whoever would be in charge, I imagine the team would be predominantly made up by our academy graduates - a chance to see if they really can make the grade. it would also give the owner and the manager the chance to overhaul the squad and cut out the overpaid under performers.
I wouldn't choose it, but there would be benefits to going down in my opinion.
-
I said exactly this yesterday in the aftermath of getting embarrased by a team beaten by wigan midweek. But in hindsight and having calmed down to my now usual levels of apathy, I would rather carry on limping through to 13th place every year with the occasional good result. Also, I dont want my girlfriend see me cry like a bitch on the last day of the season....
-
I think we need to do everything possible to avoid relegation - absolute disaster that would be.
Perversly, I think AML is more adept to get a Championship team promoted than he is to then keep one in the Permier League.
Yo-da! is a villa fan Yo-da! is a villa....
-
Yo-da! is a villa fan Yo-da! is a villa....
Made me smile!
-
At 2mill a year the Ginger one would not be manager of Villa in the Championship.
-
Not for me Brian.
You're assuming that relegation would mean the end for him and i'm not sure that would be the case.
I want Lerner to come to his senses and jettison this absolute nightmare of a man, then make a fresh start for next season.
This is how I feel. Its like the mind of our once all caring and generous Randy has been infected by the spirits of the Kumar Bros. He needs to come to his senses and NOW.
I have avoided saying this all season, but I honestly believe that were he to be given the bullet today and KMac put in charge, it would give the team enough lift to get the three points we need for safety and then we can consider our position.
It genuinely makes me feel upset to think of him at the helm come next season.
-
I don't think it helps when you have a board that doesn't seem to know it's arse from it's elbow and piss takers like Ferguson who bang on about what a great job McCleish is doing. I don't know how he kept a straight face coming out with rubbish like that.
-
Those comments were on a par with Houlliers sickening Anfield love fest and for that reason alone he needs to be fucked off.
-
The problem will only be solved by lerner going as he is totally clueless - new broome with lerner faulkner and mcleish out- lets hope theres a buyer !
-
As has often been said before, we at least thought with McLeish we would have a defensively sound set up. How wrong were we?
What I also thought we'd get with him is a spirit for fighting till the last kick, how wrong was I?
But what I didn't really expect is this grovelling up to the opposition that we've witnessed in his after match interviews, "different agendas" on more than one occasion and "theater of dreams". God knows what goes on in his pre match motivational speeches, does he even give them? Earlier in the year we had all that arse licking you tube clip of our lot overly pally with Man City players prior to the game at their place where we were stuffed, and again yesterday, we had smiles for Young and Rooney, this, again after the same treatment. What is he doing about this, would the ManU players be doing the same had we beaten them? Not a chance.
Who the fuck in the club cares about our predicament, not the manager or the players it appears. We need someone to galvanize a mentality to at least try and make us winners, something to show the fans that the players and manager care. Not this 'we're here to make up the numbers' attitude that affects us at present. We're Aston Villa for Christ sake.
-
Worst thing that could happen to us!
You think we are on a budget now... With championship money think randy would throw a "yard" sale at the back of the holte end selling everything from players to 20,000 plastic seats that won't be used!
Didn't do Newcastle any harm. They're pushing for a Champions League spot within two seasons of us relegating them. McLeish has been a disaster of Billy McNeill proportions and look what happened within a couple of seasons of him taking us down too. I'm with you Brian, get down and get rid.
They also have an interested and Football / Business Savvy chairman...
-
Not for me.
It's one thing hoping to do a Newcastle and come straight back, but what if we do a Forest?
-
The lure of competing in a proper league is actually quite appealing
That's how I feel too. Trouble is, the way we are being run down at the moment, we'd only get out of the championship by getting relegated to league 1 ( is that what the 3rd division is called nowadays).
Mind you, I could live without having to watch JT, Lamps, Stevie Gee, Wazza, Drogba, Ashley fucking Young et al lord mayoring it over us.
Just for 1 season, mind
Maybe it's a generational thing but I think the premier league fucking stinks
-
Sheff Wed and leeds are a lifetime ago, especially Wednesday,
if we went down we would not be down for long
the key to the whole thing of coarse is who we have as the next manager whether in the prem or championship, get the appointment right and everything can be turned around quickly no matter where we are.
-
Relegation is not an option, as far as I'm concerned.
That said, Big Feck needs to go at the end of the season. Four home wins and no confidence we'll win another (from me at least) is reason enough.
He'll still be here next August though. :(
-
I want to see us stay in the top division not relegation that would be unthinkable.
-
We won't go down and mcleish won't be sacked. If we do go down I don't think he'll be sacked either.
I don't think he can take us forward long term, but in the eyes of randy, keeping us up will probably earn him another season. It has been a shocker of a season and I realize we still are not safe yet, but mcleish has got a contract and I don't think randy has either the money or the inclination to do anything about it at present.
As to all the posters saying randy should do one and sell up, it's a fair call, why stick around when you clearly don't give a fuck? The thing is who would look at us at the moment and in the current financial climate and think we would be a good investment prospect? Honestly, what seriously wealthy businessperson or consortium would want to throw their money down the b6 plug hole? Which leaves the dodgy fuckers like knighton, ransome Richardson and all the other charlatans who have got the chat but not the money.
Realistically the best we can hope for is we stay up, try and rebuild a bit in the summer and then fuck mcleish off at the end of his contract and hopefully get someone with more of a clue in next.
-
Worst thing that could happen to us!
You think we are on a budget now... With championship money think randy would throw a "yard" sale at the back of the holte end selling everything from players to 20,000 plastic seats that won't be used!
Didn't do Newcastle any harm. They're pushing for a Champions League spot within two seasons of us relegating them. McLeish has been a disaster of Billy McNeill proportions and look what happened within a couple of seasons of him taking us down too. I'm with you Brian, get down and get rid.
Mike Ashley's a twat, but he is also a successful businessman and unlike Lerner, has seemingly learnt from his mistakes.
-
It would cost , what about £2 million to get rid of him .
Relegation would cost us 20 times more than that , maybe.
SACK HIM NOW!!!!!!
-
Those comments were on a par with Houlliers sickening Anfield love fest and for that reason alone he needs to be fucked off.
I can kind of understand Houliers love for 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' and it was cringe worthy but AMC with Manure is not acceptable.
-
As has often been said before, we at least thought with McLeish we would have a defensively sound set up. How wrong were we?
What I also thought we'd get with him is a spirit for fighting till the last kick, how wrong was I?
My thoughts exactly. I wasnt happy when he became boss but I was expecting a few hard fought 1-0's at least . A bit of passion and spirt and better in defence.
-
Sheff Wed and leeds are a lifetime ago, especially Wednesday,
if we went down we would not be down for long
the key to the whole thing of coarse is who we have as the next manager whether in the prem or championship, get the appointment right and everything can be turned around quickly no matter where we are.
What if we get the appointment wrong? Villa have been a top flight club for over a century - relegation is simply not acceptable under any circumstances. As it is, when I look at our history and see the spells of the second and third tier football in our record books I shudder; the top flight is the only place for Villa.
If, at times, we find ourselves in situations where we feel we are going to be struggling to compete at the highest level, it is not the whole club that should be taking a step down but the custodian. It's Randy who should hold his hands up and recognize he hasn't the resources to compete and it's Randy who should be looking to step down for the good of the club.
-
As has often been said before, we at least thought with McLeish we would have a defensively sound set up. How wrong were we?
What I also thought we'd get with him is a spirit for fighting till the last kick, how wrong was I?
My thoughts exactly. I wasnt happy when he became boss but I was expecting a few hard fought 1-0's at least . A bit of passion and spirt and better in defence.
Thirded. It's as though he's got rid of the things he did right and kept the rest.
-
As it is, when I look at our history and see the spells of the second and third tier football in our record books I shudder; the top flight is the only place for Villa
I understand what you're saying but there are many people who consider our days of second and third division football to be amongst our finest. I don't shudder when I look back at the second division days - I loved it.
Then again, rose-tinted specs and all that
-
As has often been said before, we at least thought with McLeish we would have a defensively sound set up. How wrong were we?
What I also thought we'd get with him is a spirit for fighting till the last kick, how wrong was I?
On the first one, yes, I am really surprised at how that has panned out. Johnson and Dann were rock solid for him (although didn't Dann miss the run in?) but if you look at how those two players have done this season, they've both been pretty disastrous, which leads you to think maybe it was his work with them that got the absolute best out of them.
On the second one, I was never convinced of that. I remember reading a report of their last match of the season at Spurs last year which told how utterly spineless and bereft of attacking intent they'd been, despite it being a match where they could survive if they got something.
-
As has often been said before, we at least thought with McLeish we would have a defensively sound set up. How wrong were we?
What I also thought we'd get with him is a spirit for fighting till the last kick, how wrong was I?
My thoughts exactly. I wasnt happy when he became boss but I was expecting a few hard fought 1-0's at least . A bit of passion and spirt and better in defence.
Thirded. It's as though he's got rid of the things he did right and kept the rest.
Perhaps those things were not by design as many thought, me included
-
Those comments were on a par with Houlliers sickening Anfield love fest and for that reason alone he needs to be fucked off.
I can kind of understand Houliers love for 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' and it was cringe worthy but AMC with Manure is not acceptable.
If Fergie came in for Gary Gardner could you imagine McLeish putting up a fight and telling him the lad's not for sale under any circumstances? Not a chance. McLeish is a man who's mindest is very much based on football as a modern "industry". He will look upon Man Utd as the ultimate infootball, he will look upon Villa as a stepping stone for him in his career.
Why we have McLeish at our club is beyond me: he's not a club builder, he's not a youth developer, he has no record of loyalty whatsoever. On every single level he is the wrong fit for the club. If you could put together an identikit of the person we need to be managing Villa at this very moment in time the very last person you would come up with would be Mr. Alex McLeish. If - by some miracle - he turns the club around and creates a successful side over the next couple of years, can you imagine him sticking around? Could you imagine him showing loyalty to Villa and Lerner? He'd be off to an "elite club" before you could could blink. I see absolutely no positive in the appointment of McLeish.
-
The lure of competing in a proper league is actually quite appealing. If we went down, whoever would be in charge, I imagine the team would be predominantly made up by our academy graduates - a chance to see if they really can make the grade. it would also give the owner and the manager the chance to overhaul the squad and cut out the overpaid under performers.
I wouldn't choose it, but there would be benefits to going down in my opinion.
If the unthinkable happens, I would hope AM gets a well deserved kick up the arse out the door.
Assuming we could be competitive in the Championship with our Academy players plus a few experienced ones, having got rid of the current set of dead legs we have, it might be good to watch a successful side for a season, while promotion wouldn't be easy, at least with a manager who wants to play football, it would be more pleasurable being a Villa supporter.
-
I'm really torn on this one. Getting relegated is pretty unthinkable but if it was the only 100% guaranteed way of getting rid of him I'd be very tempted to take it
My eldest lad used to be a season ticket holder and still comes down to VP with me when he's back here. But he by far prefers watching lower league football now - no prima donnas, proper football, with physical tackling and less cheating etc. More grounds I've not been to before, cheaper tickets, more 3:00 Saturday kick-offs. Tempting. And I've become increasingly disillusioned with the PL and the Sky wankfest in a competition now only winnable by clubs who spend mega bucks.
But I wouldn't want that long term. The risk would be if we couldn't attract a decent manager - someone who could rebuild the squad, get us out of the Championship playing decent football which would be sustainable back in the PL - we could end up like Forest, Leeds or Wednesday.
So on balance probably not. The fear is if we survive this season McLeish will still be here next season and we'll end up in the Championship anyway.
-
Maybe Dann and Johnson looked good last year because McLeish had three defensive midfielders in front of them?
-
Someone posted this piece from the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/apr/16/five-things-football-this-weekend) on the Relegation Possibility thread but I thought it was pertinent to this one too
-
This line pretty much sums up my thoughts on it;
One step back to take two steps forward? It can be painful but it might just be fun. And Villa fans have not had much of that this season.
-
It would be okay if we were guaranteed to take the two steps forward afterwards, but we ain't.
-
No, I know. That's the issue. It's a massive risk, and perfect world we stay up, Eck goes and we rebuild in the Premiership under the guidance of a capable manager.
-
Relegation would be a disaster. We're struggling to survive on no money now, so i can't see how having an extra 30m pounds worth of debt will help matters. We certainly wouldn't be a shoe-in to get promoted, and probably just as likely to go the other way.
-
As has often been said before, we at least thought with McLeish we would have a defensively sound set up. How wrong were we?
What I also thought we'd get with him is a spirit for fighting till the last kick, how wrong was I?
My thoughts exactly. I wasnt happy when he became boss but I was expecting a few hard fought 1-0's at least . A bit of passion and spirt and better in defence.
Thirded. It's as though he's got rid of the things he did right and kept the rest.
was he really that defensively better at blues? I got the impression it was Foster who kept them in it most the time.
-
As has often been said before, we at least thought with McLeish we would have a defensively sound set up. How wrong were we?
What I also thought we'd get with him is a spirit for fighting till the last kick, how wrong was I?
My thoughts exactly. I wasnt happy when he became boss but I was expecting a few hard fought 1-0's at least . A bit of passion and spirt and better in defence.
Thirded. It's as though he's got rid of the things he did right and kept the rest.
Perhaps those things were not by design as many thought, me included
I don't watch much Scottish league football, but the Blues model mentioned above is pretty much how the Scotland national side played under him aswell, so I'd go for 'design'.
But I'm at a loss to explain why it's gone so badly wrong for us this season.
-
As it is, when I look at our history and see the spells of the second and third tier football in our record books I shudder; the top flight is the only place for Villa
I understand what you're saying but there are many people who consider our days of second and third division football to be amongst our finest. I don't shudder when I look back at the second division days - I loved it.
Then again, rose-tinted specs and all that
Yes, it does appear that the general perception is that unless you're in the top league you're nowhere, not necessarily something I agree with. Only a small proportion of the teams in the premier league really enjoy themselves, for the rest its a long, unrewarding struggle to mid-table anonymity or worse. Football is still played in this country outside of those 20 teams, and the Championship looks a competitive old-fashioned league where surprise winners can come from almost any of the teams competing. If we dropped down it would be bad of course, but there are things to look forward to also.
-
I don't want us relegated. I do not want AM as the Manager. The latter prospect will almost certainly mean another season of the worst football I have ever witnessed at Villa Park. More bigging up of the elite clubs and other crap about the 'Theatre of Dreams' and the constant blaming of individuals. His interview on the OS yesterday when he singled out Baker, and then said 'but I do not blame him' is some of the most cowardly words of contradiction I have ever heard from a Manager.
If we go down there is no promise that AM will go anyway. I want Randy to wake up, see the mess that we are in and act by sacking the failed Manager he chased and employed. I do not think that is likely to happen, unfortunately. So I sit on the fence regarding the original question- if Randy does not act it is a lose lose situation for me.
-
I just desperately want him gone. He is as bad as I can remember at Villa, he's worse than O'Leary genuinely.
-
After yet another poor performance and thats putting it mildly I ask the question what are the Villa about at the moment? what do we actually bring to the table? Entertainment is zero - Performance is always poor apart from the energy of the kids - AM is a joke (enough said). When you actually sit back and review the matches this season have you been entertained? Do you still want to go the match? We all know the feelings of fans (and more are becoming vocal in the past few months than ever before and yet fans still do not give him stick at home games. Why not?
-
As has often been said before, we at least thought with McLeish we would have a defensively sound set up. How wrong were we?
What I also thought we'd get with him is a spirit for fighting till the last kick, how wrong was I?
My thoughts exactly. I wasnt happy when he became boss but I was expecting a few hard fought 1-0's at least . A bit of passion and spirt and better in defence.
Thirded. It's as though he's got rid of the things he did right and kept the rest.
Perhaps those things were not by design as many thought, me included
I don't watch much Scottish league football, but the Blues model mentioned above is pretty much how the Scotland national side played under him aswell, so I'd go for 'design'.
But I'm at a loss to explain why it's gone so badly wrong for us this season.
I'm not, he is absolutely out of his depth in the premiership.
-
As has often been said before, we at least thought with McLeish we would have a defensively sound set up. How wrong were we?
What I also thought we'd get with him is a spirit for fighting till the last kick, how wrong was I?
But what I didn't really expect is this grovelling up to the opposition that we've witnessed in his after match interviews, "different agendas" on more than one occasion and "theater of dreams". God knows what goes on in his pre match motivational speeches, does he even give them? Earlier in the year we had all that arse licking you tube clip of our lot overly pally with Man City players prior to the game at their place where we were stuffed, and again yesterday, we had smiles for Young and Rooney, this, again after the same treatment. What is he doing about this, would the ManU players be doing the same had we beaten them? Not a chance.
Who the fuck in the club cares about our predicament, not the manager or the players it appears. We need someone to galvanize a mentality to at least try and make us winners, something to show the fans that the players and manager care. Not this 'we're here to make up the numbers' attitude that affects us at present. We're Aston Villa for Christ sake.
This last paragraph sums it all up for me.
-
Only two teams in Scotland Rangers and Celtic and he still managed third
-
Only two teams in Scotland Rangers and Celtic and he still managed third
And second with Motherwell.
Sorry, just like throwing this in to annoy people!
-
Thing is I don't really care what he's done elsewhere. He's been fucking atrocious with us and that's what matters.
-
change of subject - FA Cup Final 5.15 saturday . I HATE MODERN FOOTBALL
-
Those comments were on a par with Houlliers sickening Anfield love fest and for that reason alone he needs to be fucked off.
I can kind of understand Houliers love for 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' and it was cringe worthy but AMC with Manure is not acceptable.
Could you imagine him showing loyalty to Villa and Lerner? He'd be off to an "elite club" before you could could blink. I see absolutely no positive in the appointment of McLeish.
Billy , hes got no chance of an *elite club * , I wish he would just f**k off to Wolves .
-
change of subject - FA Cup Final 5.15 saturday . I HATE MODERN FOOTBALL
wont that conflict with the X factor !
-
If its a straight choice between the Championship without McLeish or the Premier league with McLeish then i'd personally rather take the relegation.
-
I wish I knew the solution to this conundrum? Everyone that doesn't want relegation what will be the way forward?
Dross football and the hope we can can get past the first stages of the cups?
I really cant see a way out of this Mess unless we get rid of McLeish and employ a young Manager who wants to at least try playing football.
-
Both Brian and the Guardian article offer compelling reasons as to why we should think the unthinkable, embrace the abyss. And yet…
Allow me to go off at a tangent. When I was at University and we were approaching the end of our first year in the halls of residence and thoughts turned to house sharing for the following year. In our social group there was a one lad, a text book annoying Student Grant type, who nobody wanted to live with but who everyone agreed would tolerate if it came down to it.
The day arrived where we all went to the bar and delivered the bombshell that we didn’t want to share a house with him. He urged us to give him another chance and we agreed to do so and started looking for a bigger house. But we all knew as soon as we agreed to include him that we REALLY didn’t want to spend the next year in the same house as him and a second and final bombshell was dropped a week later.
The point I’m making in what is a very roundabout way is that while it remains only a possibility, we can all entertain thoughts of how it might not be so bad and how there may be benefits to be enjoyed but if it becomes a reality I don’t think that’s going to be the case. Be careful what you wish for and all that.
-
Relegation would be a disaster and I don’t think we would necessarily be rid of McLeish if we did go down.
It’s more likely that the club would come out with some bollocks about his record of getting straight back up and stick with him and we would be left watching the same turgid football that we have had to put up with this season but in a lower league.
-
Over the weekend I have got closer to thinking I would accept relegation to be rid of Mctwat but I just cannot want or wish for my beloved club to take the drop, it just seems wrong.
-
On the whole relegation argument I'm unconvinced by either the 'It will benefit us...' or the 'It will be a disaster' arguments. Whilst there is no guarantee that we are going to be promoted inside a season and purge ourselves of a lot of our problems I think that the whole disaster argument is somewhat overblown and seems to lack perspective. Chernobyl was a disaster, the deaths of multiple people is a disaster. Villa getting relegated is merely a bit shit. At the end of the day, we will still have our club and that is what is most important about our relationship with Villa. On the financial side of things Lerner may also have made a series of poor decisions that would have culminated in any possible relegation but I don't think he'd withdraw his backing from the club and would be suitably chastened by the experience so financially we would not be as badly off as some seem to make out. So I'm kind of sitting on the fence here.
Of course, I think the best possible outcome doesn't involve relegation and you'd like to think that the club have learned from this season and will be able to make decisions that will ensure that there isn't a repeat of this season, or worse. Lets not hope that our route out of the frying pan leads us into the fire.
-
I think when people talk about how much fun they had when we were in the lower leagues before they use rose tinted glasses a bit. I'm sure the 3rd divisions days were fun, but what about the 3 before it when we were at the bottom of Division 2 in a near empty Villa Park. Were they fun too? Or how about a couple of seasons later when we finished 14th in Division 2?
I was around last time we were down and for the most part it was shit. It was only decent if you went away a lot as we won a lot away from home. But at home it was pretty crap and depressing. Only a couple of times was Villa Park even half full. Had we not gone up by the skin of our teeth I dread to think of where that would have left us.
-
It was only decent if you went away a lot as we won a lot away from home. But at home it was pretty crap and depressing
Plus ca change
-
Over the weekend I have got closer to thinking I would accept relegation to be rid of Mctwat but I just cannot want or wish for my beloved club to take the drop, it just seems wrong.
He'd be in his element if we got relegated; playing substandard long ball football, scrappy midfield battles, scraping results etc. So the club would consider him the best man to get us back into the PL.
-
Who'd have thought in those heady days of 06-10 we'd be debating this in 2012? Whether or not relegation might be what's needed to rejuvenate the club.
-
Worst thing that could happen to us!
You think we are on a budget now... With championship money think randy would throw a "yard" sale at the back of the holte end selling everything from players to 20,000 plastic seats that won't be used!
Didn't do Newcastle any harm. They're pushing for a Champions League spot within two seasons of us relegating them. McLeish has been a disaster of Billy McNeill proportions and look what happened within a couple of seasons of him taking us down too. I'm with you Brian, get down and get rid.
It's something I've been mulling over since Jan/Feb.
Last season I was absolutely shitting it at the prospect of going down and the damage it could do.
Now, I think about another season of this, compared to a more positive approach with a new manager (albeit one tier down) and I can genuinely see the appeal of the latter.
Part of my concern last season was that if we went down, Albrighton, Bannan, Clark and co might be picked off by scavengers above us. Whilst I still think they can be very good players, this season has demonstrated that we probably don't have to worry about head-turning bids coming in from Man U, Tottingham and the like anytime soon.
A season of competitive football (and playing to win) in the Championship might be the perfect halfway house between Reserve/Youth football and the top flight. And might be the making of them. And us.
But as Paulie and others have pointed out, we could just as easily do a Forest or Wednesday. So my hope is that we do actually stay up, and the board get lucky with their next managerial appointment. Make no mistake about it, it probably will take luck. As based on their previous, I wouldn't trust them to pick their nose.
-
I think this argument is somewhat pointless, as if we (god forbid) actually do get relegated, why would the board want to remove a manager with a very good promotion record?
-
I think this argument is somewhat pointless, as if we (god forbid) actually do get relegated, why would the board want to remove a manager with a very good promotion record?
i quite like that pointless programme!
-
it's the new 5 year plan, 2 years to get us relegated, 3rd year a trip to wembley only to miss out on promotion in the play offs, 4th year an abysmal season just avoiding relegation from the championship, 5th year, relegation from the championship, All heil McLeish and Lerner's unwavering loyalty to his man.
-
I think McLeish isn't as bad as most on here seem to think. Seriously.
He's a limited manager, and an ambitious club shouldn't touch him with a barge pole, but he has shown that he is capable of building defensive-minded sides that scrapes enough 1-0 wins and draws to be considered mildly successful.
The main reason why this hasn't worked as Villa is the McLeish approach relies on strong defensive midfielders. Most of the season, our central midfield have been our achilles heal.
Secondly, to scrape 1-0 wins and (scoreless) draws you cannot have defenders who are almost guaranteed to make at least one cock-up every match. We have.
Thirdly, either because he don't have the players to carry out his preferred tactics or because he sort of understands that he has to try to play decent football to win over the fans, he periodically drifts away from the set-up that has provided him (sporadic) success in the past. The result is usually that the team looks even more disjointed and disorganised.
-
I think McLeish isn't as bad as most on here seem to think. Seriously.
He's a limited manager, and an ambitious club shouldn't touch him with a barge pole, but he has shown that he is capable of building defensive-minded sides that scrapes enough 1-0 wins and draws to be considered mildly successful.
The main reason why this hasn't worked as Villa is the McLeish approach relies on strong defensive midfielders. Most of the season, our central midfield have been our achilles heal.
Secondly, to scrape 1-0 wins and (scoreless) draws you cannot have defenders who are almost guaranteed to make at least one cock-up every match. We have.
Thirdly, either because he don't have the players to carry out his preferred tactics or because he sort of understands that he has to try to play decent football to win over the fans, he periodically drifts away from the set-up that has provided him (sporadic) success in the past. The result is usually that the team looks even more disjointed and disorganised.
good try mate, your making a argument there, building a case.
Verdict - Guilty as Charged
at least you had a go
-
Well argued and very depressing.
-
There is only one way forward for us. This would be... Stay in the Premier League... Get rid of McLeish... Appoint a different manager... Get rid of Faulkner... Appoint a football man... Begin the long task of rebuilding.
Anything other than the above and we'll stay on the road to disaster.
-
I think when people talk about how much fun they had when we were in the lower leagues before they use rose tinted glasses a bit. I'm sure the 3rd divisions days were fun, but what about the 3 before it when we were at the bottom of Division 2 in a near empty Villa Park. Were they fun too? Or how about a couple of seasons later when we finished 14th in Division 2?
A lot of the fun in that 67-70 period was the fact that we were 40 odd years younger. For those where this coincided with not quite being of an age to drink legally, like myself, it was wonderful.
-
If we go down, I don't think we'll be back for a good long while.
-
I think when people talk about how much fun they had when we were in the lower leagues before they use rose tinted glasses a bit. I'm sure the 3rd divisions days were fun, but what about the 3 before it when we were at the bottom of Division 2 in a near empty Villa Park. Were they fun too? Or how about a couple of seasons later when we finished 14th in Division 2?
A lot of the fun in that 67-70 period was the fact that we were 40 odd years younger. For those where this coincided with not quite being of an age to drink legally, like myself, it was wonderful.
I started in 1966 and from the off went to every home game and in fact as we gradually got crappier and the crowds got lower I was taking in more away games too. But I'd just started and didn't know any different. But also it was a different era, cheap and cheerful and not quite the same cynicism and less win at all costs and cheating the referee etc. From December 1968 it became magical and even the then unexpected drop to the 3rd division when we thought we would head the other direction with The Doc could not dim the new enthusiasm of all supporters.
The two seasons in the 3rd division are still my favourite ever. OK i was then in my mid teens and lived and breathed Villa at that age. But my late Mom and Dad would have been in their late 40s then, they also used to say those two seasons were their favourite ever.
-
I think when people talk about how much fun they had when we were in the lower leagues before they use rose tinted glasses a bit. I'm sure the 3rd divisions days were fun, but what about the 3 before it when we were at the bottom of Division 2 in a near empty Villa Park. Were they fun too? Or how about a couple of seasons later when we finished 14th in Division 2?
A lot of the fun in that 67-70 period was the fact that we were 40 odd years younger. For those where this coincided with not quite being of an age to drink legally, like myself, it was wonderful.
Absolutely.
1987-8 was one of my favourite seasons. Away matches were brilliant, we had some fantastic days out, up and down the country in my mate's Maxi, getting rat-arsed everywhere we go.
The thing was, though, I was 19 at the time, which made all the difference. Had I been 43, it wouldn't have been such fun.
-
If we go down, I don't think we'll be back for a good long while.
I bet something like that was said on the eve of the 4-2 home defeat to Everton in 1967. A scary thought.
-
If it comes it comes and it wouldn't be the end of the world, and if it mean't the end of McLeish it would without doubts have its merits and I can remember when Villa where playing in the lower divisions yonks ago and they where some of the most exciting times have had at Villa park.
The point was would it be a price worth paying to get rid of AM, IMO yes, couldn't take another season of this dross.
-
I think when people talk about how much fun they had when we were in the lower leagues before they use rose tinted glasses a bit. I'm sure the 3rd divisions days were fun, but what about the 3 before it when we were at the bottom of Division 2 in a near empty Villa Park. Were they fun too? Or how about a couple of seasons later when we finished 14th in Division 2?
A lot of the fun in that 67-70 period was the fact that we were 40 odd years younger. For those where this coincided with not quite being of an age to drink legally, like myself, it was wonderful.
Very true but also I always felt that we would come good simply because we had massive support when we did well. Before the TV revenue days this was a huge factor in the revenue of a club. Today if we went down I really fear we may not come back anywhere near as quickly.
-
As it is, when I look at our history and see the spells of the second and third tier football in our record books I shudder; the top flight is the only place for Villa
I understand what you're saying but there are many people who consider our days of second and third division football to be amongst our finest. I don't shudder when I look back at the second division days - I loved it.
Then again, rose-tinted specs and all that
I loved our time in the lower divisions it was exicting watching the Villa winning (and big crowds) and being thought of as the
glamorous side that they all wanted to beat. But the only place to be is the Prem and if McDuff keeps us in it he will have achieved what he set out to do.....but at what cost?
-
We won't get big crowds in the championship.
-
If we go down they'd better revise the season ticket prices if they want people to renew. Maybe that's why they're so keen to get people to renew now?
-
We won't get big crowds in the championship.
we dont get big crowds now
-
If we go down they'd better revise the season ticket prices if they want people to renew. Maybe that's why they're so keen to get people to renew now?
I think someone said elsewhere that they'd justify the same price for the four extra games in the Championship.
-
I understand where Brian is comming from, its like the bloke trapped on a mountain, either cut your arm off or die.
-
I think when people talk about how much fun they had when we were in the lower leagues before they use rose tinted glasses a bit. I'm sure the 3rd divisions days were fun, but what about the 3 before it when we were at the bottom of Division 2 in a near empty Villa Park. Were they fun too? Or how about a couple of seasons later when we finished 14th in Division 2?
A lot of the fun in that 67-70 period was the fact that we were 40 odd years younger. For those where this coincided with not quite being of an age to drink legally, like myself, it was wonderful.
Absolutely.
1987-8 was one of my favourite seasons. Away matches were brilliant, we had some fantastic days out, up and down the country in my mate's Maxi, getting rat-arsed everywhere we go.
The thing was, though, I was 19 at the time, which made all the difference. Had I been 43, it wouldn't have been such fun.
My first full season was the season before.
I cried a bit at getting promoted, because I was happy enough seeing us win a bit in the lower league. Thank the lord we had Sir GT.
-
Getting relegated now is not the same a it was back in the day. In our present financial situation, it's nigh on financial suicide.
John Lydon once. said, "ever have the feeling you've been cheated?" Yes John, I do.
-
If we go down, I don't think we'll be back for a good long while.
I bet something like that was said on the eve of the 4-2 home defeat to Everton in 1967. A scary thought.
Remember that game - my first game at VP. I loved watching Villa in the '70's, from the 3rd Div to beating Liverpool 5-1 in December 1976.
I'm now much older, the leagues, teams, refs, pitches, grounds and fans are now all very different.
-
Whilst Graham Taylor clearly did well to get Villa promoted out of the then Division 2 the standard of our football that season was generally pretty dire, albeit that results (mainly away from home) were good enough to see us scrape promotion.
-
I would probably accept relegation if it guranteed McLeish getting the boot and Lerner appointing a decent manager who wants to play good football. However I don't think Lerner is capable of doing either of those things, or is even willing to.
-
http://www.thevillablog.co.uk/aston-villa-blog/avfc-news/alex-mcleish/
-
We can't afford to go down and risk doing a Leeds etc.
At the end of the day the Chief Executive stated that we should be challenging for Europe. McLeish has failed and should be sacked full stop. To have less wins than teams that have cost and are paid much less than ours tells you again that the manager has failed.
-
We can't afford to go down and risk doing a Leeds etc.
We won't do a Leeds unless Randy pulls the plug on the finances.
Even then apparently there are loads of filthy rich Arabs just waiting for their moment to buy us.
-
The Arabs are on their way
أهلا ونحن اصحاب الجديد لكرة القدم نادي استون فيلا سنعمل على تحقيق اكبر من الرجل مدينة سيادتكم
-
Maybe a rock or hard place decision for some but after a conversation today with a stalwart fan, it left me wanting to ask for a broader opinion on these two options.
As for me, the thought of n-power football just for a change at the helm would be toying with death as promotion with a new incumbant, in the first season isnt guaranteed. Just ask sheffield or leeds fans.
-
How did he get the name 'Eck'? Was it because fans have always asked "What the 'eck is he doing?"
-
I'd rather we stay up for the good of the club but I won't go to games with Eck in charge.
-
Neither.
-
Nor!
-
Ideally top flight with a new manager.
Otherwise top flight with AM. Going down just doesn't bear thinking about.
-
Premier League.
-
Hooray, another new thread saying all the same thing as all the other ones.
-
I feel that those who say that relegation is price worth paying for getting rid of McLeish are forgetting that this is about the club, not the manager.
-
If its not this season it will be next as we have declined massively for the passed 2 years. Selling off our best players undoubtedly carries a massive burdon but still, this squad should not be where it is. That is due to the manager.
Relegation would kill Villa with its current debts as the loss of revenues will then see the debt unserviceable.
-
Whatever happens the future cannot be with Mcleish.
-
PL with Eck. PL with anybody.
Only Everton have spent more seasons in the top flight than Aston Villa. It's where villa belong.
-
If we was garunteed a new manager, yes. I can't stand the thought of another season like this, were only delaying the inevitable. We need to progress as a club and I don't see that happening.
I just want rid of the bloke altogether
-
I wouldn't touch the "benefits" of relegation with a bargepole. McLeish will not be here next season; if he is, Randy Lerner will either be sectioned or will have to employ round-the-clock protection.
-
No one should understimate the damage that relegation could cause Aston Villa FC. It would be catestrophic, no question.
-
I suppose I should have said when I started this thread that I would of course prefer to be in the Premiership with another manager but after last night I am more than ever convinced that unless the owner and his hirelings get a massive kick up the arse what we are seeing these days will become the norm. If we scrape survival this year and McLeish stays we will be every bit as bad next season, probably worse and relegation will be inevitable. Relegation might be a loud enough wake up call.
In my opinion it hinges on the fact that the club is wholly owned by Lerner. He could be so naive or bloody minded that McLeish would be kept in charge until he drops down dead if Lerner so wishes.
To stand any chance of retaining any kind of status in English football we have to start winning again and winning well with football worth watching. What you have to ask yourself is whether that is more likely to happen in the Premiership being managed by McLeish or temporarily in the Championship managed by a young, dynamic, progressive manager who is liked and respected by players and fans alike. I have made my mind up and it is a decision based on what is in the best interests of the club which has been so much part of my life for so many years.
-
Sadly the choice is not ours to make.
Prem
-
Having just lost my dad to Cancer I've realised (even more) that football is not the most important thing in life. At the moment I really don't care if we go down, I know for others and the club it would be a disaster but I'm bored with everything to do with the Villa at the moment and I've been to more games this year than I have done in ages, If we go down I think I'll go to even more games because they'll be grounds and places I've not been before and I might even get excited from winning again (I'm not daft enough to think a crap team in the prem is a good one in the Championship)
This season has been grim and I really don't want another one, kick off's at stupid o'clock, the non stop Manchester wank fest, I'll be glad to see the back of it. What are we striving for, fucking survival, give me a season of hope where we can at least try and win the league.
I know I'll get slated but its how I feel and I think I'd feel the same if my Dad was still alive. What was the question again? Oh yeah I voted option two.
-
Why do you think you would get slated for expressing a personal opinion on a discussion board?
-
Having just lost my dad to Cancer I've realised (even more) that football is not the most important thing in life. At the moment I really don't care if we go down, I know for others and the club it would be a disaster but I'm bored with everything to do with the Villa at the moment and I've been to more games this year than I have done in ages, If we go down I think I'll go to even more games because they'll be grounds and places I've not been before and I might even get excited from winning again (I'm not daft enough to think a crap team in the prem is a good one in the Championship)
This season has been grim and I really don't want another one, kick off's at stupid o'clock, the non stop Manchester wank fest, I'll be glad to see the back of it. What are we striving for, fucking survival, give me a season of hope where we can at least try and win the league.
I know I'll get slated but its how I feel and I think I'd feel the same if my Dad was still alive. What was the question again? Oh yeah I voted option two.
I think you may be surprised by how many agree with you.
I would take a season of excitement, genuine belief that we can win every game in a lower division than what we have now.
-
You know what I couldn't care less now. If we get relegated it will be an entertaining season down there. Does it affect me personally if we go down? Nope, so I'll look forward to watching football for the most part on Saturday nights and Tuesdays/Wednesdays... heck we might even win a game or two at Villa Park.
-
My main gripe with the second option is that I'm not sure that we'd be able to bounce back up straight away. We could potentially become what Newcastle have, but I could easily see us going the way of Nottingham Forrest.
Also, if we go down, we suddenly have a manager in Big Feck with a good promotion record. I'm not sure relegation would necessarily mean the end of his tenure here.
-
Or Sheffield Wednesday.
-
Or Sheffield Wednesday.
Don't even start.
-
Even though they aren't as big as us, did anyone really expect Cov, Southampton, Derby, Ipswich, Charlton etc to be out the top flight so long when they got relegated?
-
Between the two options, I'd take the Championship. I would genuinely be interested to see our youngsters dominate in the second tier and hopefully mature them into Premier League players. It would also be a good chance to get rid of all the ageing deadwood and replace them with younger players from lower in the leagues like Rhodes.
It's Lerners fault were in this position so he can take the hit in his "billionaire" pockets when we go down.
-
Losing a loved parent is a devastating event Kingy. It makes you look at life in a very different way. With respect I do not think your sadness has diminished your assessment of what football and Villa mean to you, it has clarified it. I want option 2 for very personal reasons and that is I do not have many more seasons left in me and if I am going to see us become a club to be reckoned with again the sooner we start the rebuilding process the better. Lerner is not going to allow any manager the amounts of money needed to put out a ready made good team so it has to be built brick by brick and the Premiership is merciless in its punishment of the cheap and cheerful teams our owner appears to want us to emulate.
-
Strange thing is that I hate what the top division has become. The greed, the cheating, the feigning injury and Sky Sports obsession with the Top 4 or Top 5 or what ever team is now delivering 'mouth watering' football on 'Sky Super Sunday'
Why do I feel sick at the thought of loosing it ?
-
Think of how many goals Bent would score in the championship providing we keep hold of him. On the downside there is not many internet streams of championship games which is how i watch villa.
-
Prem with the Clown for me, both are depressing though!
-
Why anyone would think that getting rid of McLeish at any cost will mean a brighter future for Villa is beyond me. The board have proved that they're hopeless at appointing managers. I'd also say that there's as much chance of him staying / leaving whatever happens at the end of the season.
-
Mcleish must have very thick skin to not realise that we don't want him and have never wanted him his track record says it all. He is officially the biggest waste of space we have ever had. Bring back Venglos !!!!!
-
Sophie's choice! Stay in Prem with Eck, only because I don't think we'll come back anytime soon if we go down
-
Strange thing is that I hate what the top division has become. The greed, the cheating, the feigning injury and Sky Sports obsession with the Top 4 or Top 5 or what ever team is now delivering 'mouth watering' football on 'Sky Super Sunday'
Why do I feel sick at the thought of loosing it ?
My feelings exactly.
Like an addiction - you know it's bad for you but you keep on wanting it.
-
Strangly I think we have more of a chance of keeping McLeish if we go down