Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Greg N'Ash on February 26, 2012, 09:29:19 PM
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We're now in that traditional part of the season where the fans have turned on the manager, and given that GH was given till mid-November before people were saying we should be 6th, and Mcleish is roughly three points off mid-table with everyone calling for his head, where do you think this team given a "good" manager should be?
This isn't some thinly veiled accusation aimed us being fickle, but i do wonder how good some people think the remnants of MON's team is and where Mcleish should be for fans to get off his back. I know its about performances as much as picking up points but aren't the two connected? If you have crap players the performances won't be up to much.. Personally, apart from Bent, Gabby, Carlos and Given i'd say we were mid-table at best and probably the midfield and defence overall lower half.
So where should we be in your opinion?
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6th-10th and playing much better football than we currently do. And looking there is something approaching a longterm plan in place rather than looking like we are just stumbling around in the dark with no idea what the next step should be.
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6th-10th and playing much better football than we currently do. And looking there is something approaching a longterm plan in place rather than looking like we are just stumbling around in the dark with no idea what the next step should be.
see that does surprise me because we finished 9th with Houllier but he had Young, Downing NRC etc.. to call on. and yet you think the lowest we should finish is one place lower than last season and possibly 3 places higher?
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It takes a pretty bad manager to get that squad to 15th, we should be 5 wins better than we are right now.
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We should be mid table for sure. The manager cannot motivate the players, though to be fair they have been a disgrace as well
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Top half - just.
I think last season Houllier judged very quickly (and rightly in my opinion) that our defence was past their best (Dunne) over rated (Collins) and Warnock was never going to see eye to eye after Liverpool. With Luke Young as well and his issues the defence was always going to be an issue. This year though we have a manager who supposedly builds his teams around defence and hey presto we can't defend. Guessing my point here is based on the presence of Young and Downing in the team we should of been higher last year, but think Dunne/Collins were definitely big influences in the dressing room and hindered his overall philosophy.
Even with the loss of Young/Downing still think we should be higher than we are. Bent (if playing to his strengths which we don't) and Gabby (who to be fair has performed better for McLeish than he did for GH last year despite still being played wide which was cited as his issue last year for under performing) should be sufficient for us to be scoring enough goals, especially considered the presence of Ireland, N'Zogbia and Albrighton behind. Unfair to call the rest of the squad crap - Cuellar has been consistently played out of position (best centre half we have by a good stretch) but would agree that we are better front to back and therefore our tactics of trying to nick wins and draw 0-0 is fatally flawed as we are not good enough to keep consistent clean sheets and by doing so limit our attacking moves.
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It was interesting to hear Paul Merson saying that the reason Villa, Albion and Wolves were so poor at home was because of the fans.
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we had a huge injury problem for several months under GH and a mutiny in the camp.
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we had a huge injury problem for several months under GH and a mutiny in the camp.
Any played the kids and gave them belief and they performed admirably.
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well we've had munity problems this season by all accounts and while the injuries aren't as bad, there's less players to choose from.
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Do you honestly think Norwich and Sunderland have better players than us
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Keown own goal said similar.
Perhaps it does seem that way at times to those on the outside looking in (and despite playing for the club, it's clear the Human Hair Follicle has little affection for the place so that applies to him too). Maybe he is irked that his beloved Arsenal have made a fool of themselves in Europe once again. Perhaps 'Have you won the European Cup?' gets under his ape like skin, a as it does the Chelsea, Tottingham and the rest of the tarts down south.
Most Villa fans I know weren't expecting top 4, top 6 or anything remotely similar to the high octane box office drama that champion of the underdog and all round God-like genius Martin O'Magic provided. With bundles and bundles of cash, of course.
Most were resigned to one of those infamous seasons of transition, with the emergence of some of the youth players providing the likely bright spots. But gamely holding on to a narrow 0-1 or 0-2 reversal, not winning at home for four months, sitting in 15th place going into March and generally being mocked up and down the land is probably a wee bit below expectations, yeah.
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I think the results coupled with the managers philosophy resulting in non winning negative football is the real problem.
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6th-10th and playing much better football than we currently do. And looking there is something approaching a longterm plan in place rather than looking like we are just stumbling around in the dark with no idea what the next step should be.
see that does surprise me because we finished 9th with Houllier but he had Young, Downing NRC etc.. to call on. and yet you think the lowest we should finish is one place lower than last season and possibly 3 places higher?
I was happy with 9th place. I wasn't happy with all the shit that went before (City, Liverpool etc). If you look at the quality of our squad it should be around 9th or 10th. We managed that last season with a player's mutiny and the biggest injury tole since the first day of the Somme. 15th with our squad is below par. I'm sure we'd tolerate a bit lower than midtable if we didn't play in a fashion that made the O'Neill era look like Barcelona. We'd probably even tolerate shit football if it was successful. Ours isn't which somewhat defeats the purpose of defensive football. Results and play aren't good enough. We would probably be happy with one or the other.
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It was interesting to hear Paul Merson saying that the reason Villa, Albion and Wolves were so poor at home was because of the fans.
I wonder when was the last time Paul had to put his hand in his pocket and buy a ticket for a match?
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I don't know really. I wouldn't be unduly worried if MON offered us their back 4 for hutton, dunne, collins and Warnock. In fact their last game was strangly reminscent of our oafs. Norwich are an unknown force really, but they've played together a while and thats another problem with us. We've had so many players coming in and out since MON left, there's no continuation or understanding built up
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Losing games and struggling in the league is one thing, waving the white flag before a match starts is just not acceptable in my book. It's not hard to see why Blues did the seemingly impossible last season and got relegated after looking as safe as houses, this time last year.
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It was interesting to hear Paul Merson saying that the reason Villa, Albion and Wolves were so poor at home was because of the fans.
I wonder when was the last time Paul had to put his hand in his pocket and buy a ticket for a match?
That is something that really has been irritating me for a while (and I have ranted about this before here). It seems that journalists, ex-players and rival managers seem intent on demonizing supporters. Whilst I will concede that some supporters are idiots. These 'experts' always seem to think they know best about every club (in spite of barely watching any games), match and the motivations of supporters. Villa supporters are wrong to want rid of McLeish and they only dislike McLeish because he came from da Blues being two such discourses.
We could see something similar around Sunderland and Steve Bruce. Bruce was doing a truly inept job and that has been illustrated by the way things have improved under a decent manager in pubehead. However, when he was sacked the old boys network closed ranks. Sunderland fans had unrealistic expectations they said. Bruce was an excellent manager. I recall various journalists and ex-players coming out with such things. I remember Ferguson complaining. I remember 5Live even had repeated managerial failure Steve McClaren commenting on how Bruce's two and a half seasons and countless millions were not enough time. It gives me the general impression that as far as these people are concerned supporters are morons, a mere inconvenience rather than the lifeblood of the game. Either we do what they want or we are a problem.
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Agree Zogman, they just come out with the same trite comments and follow each other like sheep. Why have an opinion when they get paid for following the party line?
When it comes to a major issue they sit on the fence waiting to work out the status quo.
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It was interesting to hear Paul Merson saying that the reason Villa, Albion and Wolves were so poor at home was because of the fans.
I wonder when was the last time Paul had to put his hand in his pocket and buy a ticket for a match?
That is something that really has been irritating me for a while (and I have ranted about this before here). It seems that journalists, ex-players and rival managers seem intent on demonizing supporters. Whilst I will concede that some supporters are idiots. These 'experts' always seem to think they know best about every club (in spite of barely watching any games), match and the motivations of supporters. Villa supporters are wrong to want rid of McLeish and they only dislike McLeish because he came from da Blues being two such discourses.
We could see something similar around Sunderland and Steve Bruce. Bruce was doing a truly inept job and that has been illustrated by the way things have improved under a decent manager in pubehead. However, when he was sacked the old boys network closed ranks. Sunderland fans had unrealistic expectations they said. Bruce was an excellent manager. I recall various journalists and ex-players coming out with such things. I remember Ferguson complaining. I remember 5Live even had repeated managerial failure Steve McClaren commenting on how Bruce's two and a half seasons and countless millions were not enough time. It gives me the general impression that as far as these people are concerned supporters are morons, a mere inconvenience rather than the lifeblood of the game. Either we do what they want or we are a problem.
Nearly all pundits are so superficial in their comments. They read a few papers and watch skysports news and they then think they know what is going on at the club they have to talk about. wouldnt it be great if a random fan was allowed on MOTD or Soccer Saturday to give their perspective
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6th-10th and playing much better football than we currently do. And looking there is something approaching a longterm plan in place rather than looking like we are just stumbling around in the dark with no idea what the next step should be.
see that does surprise me because we finished 9th with Houllier but he had Young, Downing NRC etc.. to call on. and yet you think the lowest we should finish is one place lower than last season and possibly 3 places higher?
Yes. MON left 5 days before the season, GH came in when the window was shut. We had the worst injury run i've ever known. There are 3 players gone from last season that I remotely give a shit aren't at VP.
AM had a full preseason. Everyone else bar Citeh and possibly Spurs and Newcastle are worse than last season.
As for 6th place. Do you think our squad should be 14 points and 9 places worse than current 6th place side Newcastle?
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One of the things I like about Merson is that he tells it as it is and if a game he is covering is dull, he will say so. Its a bit rich criticising others for doing the same.
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Zogman, what you say is the absolute truth, every word. Could not agree more.
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We came 9th last season and the consensus was that we hadn't done well enough. Yes, we hovered above the relegation places and jumped four or five places on the last day but we ended up where we deserved and people on the whole, still wanted GHou out. After losing Young and to a lesser extent Downing and NRC but gaining a manager with a reputation for building good defences and having a full season of Bent's goals with a rejuvenated Gabby and an exciting talent in N'Zogbia, I would have expected parity or thereabouts this season (8th-12th).
To be 15th having won 6 games all season is pretty woeful and below even most pessimistic expectations.
The most galling thing is that had we been a bit cuter in the transfer market, like Newcastle, regardless of Young and Downing's defections we could have taken advantage of Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool's dodgy seasons. Since our last shot at the top four two seasons ago people have said we'll never get the chance again. Had O'Neill not left and all the subsequent turmoil that followed, this year would have been as good a chance as any for us to capitalise.
For fuck sake Newcastle aren't far off a Champions League place. This time last year they had lost their best player, Andy Carroll, followed soon after by their two other best ones, Nolan and Barton and their fans couldn't believe they had been lumbered with Pardew.
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Fans expectations are not a problem at all at Villa. We're not having a go because we're having a poor season, it's that we all feel we're having a poor season but the men in charge of everything seem satisfied with the way it's going and will continue to go. Having a look at the comments of Arsenal fans when they went two down against Spuds today is an example of out-of-control fan expectation - they haven't finished outside the top four for fifteen years, play the likes of Barcelona and Milan regularly and see sublime football every week, but all they can bang on about is not spending any cash. To me, that's utterly delusional.
By rights, Villa fans should be incandescent with rage at the end of most games we play. As it is, I think the club is getting one hell of an easy ride.
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6 games won that is not even one a month. no wonder i am so bloody down
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I don't think we should pay too much attention to Merson. He probably does most of his talking through the bottom of a glass. It really annoys me when lazy talking heads bang on about Villa fans being unrealistic. Most of us don't expect CL football. We do expect an occasional cup and top 6 finish though.... and what's wrong with that? With 40,000+ regular gates (not this year admittedly) and the revenue that goes through the club why shouldn't we? It's not like we're saying we won stuff 100 years ago so we have right to win stuff now. We've been pretty much in the top 8 of the PL since it started, so yes, we might be entitled to expect that to continue. What they really mean is that we're not from London, Manchester, Newcastle or Liverpool so we should know our place. Well fuck them.
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We got rid of the messiah who got 3 top 6 finishes, a LC Final and FA Cup Semi
We sold our best players and have done for the last 3 seasons
We hire a manager but dont like him because he managed the other lot.
The atmosphere at Villa Park is awful because of the above.
Its not too difficult to see how we get charecterised.
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Yes but the fans didn't cause the above. We just react to it.
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Messiah? I hope you are taking piss.
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Got rid? I hope you are taking the piss.
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Messiah? I hope you are taking piss.
yes, i thought you new me better than that
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Got rid? I hope you are taking the piss.
ditto
although i must add that i have become more suspicious of the events leading to the beloved Martins departure based on the way the club has been led oc=ver the last couple of years
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6th-10th and playing much better football than we currently do. And looking there is something approaching a longterm plan in place rather than looking like we are just stumbling around in the dark with no idea what the next step should be.
see that does surprise me because we finished 9th with Houllier but he had Young, Downing NRC etc.. to call on. and yet you think the lowest we should finish is one place lower than last season and possibly 3 places higher?
Yes. MON left 5 days before the season, GH came in when the window was shut. We had the worst injury run i've ever known. There are 3 players gone from last season that I remotely give a shit aren't at VP.
AM had a full preseason. Everyone else bar Citeh and possibly Spurs and Newcastle are worse than last season.
As for 6th place. Do you think our squad should be 14 points and 9 places worse than current 6th place side Newcastle?
Depends if you think Newcastle will finish in 6th and that far ahead of us. I don't. I can't really agree with you on where you think the team should be, because while last season was a nightmare for injuries, munity's, and stroppy pube-headed managers walking out on us on a whim, i thought the side was shot the season before and even if MON had stayed major surgery was needed. as i said in my opening post, i think we're a mid-table side and most people seem to agree. Thing is if we win at blackburn we'll be a mid-table side. If we don't, we'll probably still be within a win of being a mid-table side so you sort of wonder why when he's 3 points within meeting our expectations, why everyone wants him out so much.
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The shit football, the defeatist attitude and the defensive tactics?
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I don't expect us to finish ahead of Man City, Man U, Arsenal or Chelsea after 38 games.
I expect us to be in the mix amongst the next rank though - Spurs (most seasons), Liverpool, Everton, Newcastle.
I also expect us to try to win every match, all the time recognising that we won't always do so.
I'd love for us to play free-flowing, attacking football; but that's not necessary if a tight, defensive stance is bringing us results.
I'd also like a cup every few years. We've not won anything since 1996. (I don't count the Inter Toto). Or at least to TRY to win one.
So finishing in the bottom half of the table is not acceptable or reasonable. Being out-competed and outplayed by Norwich, Swansea, Fulham, Stoke and West Brom is not acceptable.
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I agree about major surgery. I also had a reasonable amount of confidence in GH being the man to do it. I have very little in AM being the one to do it.
Everything points to Newcastle being more than capable of finishing that far ahead of us.
And how will a win against Blackburn make us midtable? We could still be 15th if Swansea and Albion both win, best case scenario is it puts us 13th. Surely midtable is 9th-11th, maybe 12th at a stretch?
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6th-10th and playing much better football than we currently do. And looking there is something approaching a longterm plan in place rather than looking like we are just stumbling around in the dark with no idea what the next step should be.
see that does surprise me because we finished 9th with Houllier but he had Young, Downing NRC etc.. to call on. and yet you think the lowest we should finish is one place lower than last season and possibly 3 places higher?
Yes. MON left 5 days before the season, GH came in when the window was shut. We had the worst injury run i've ever known. There are 3 players gone from last season that I remotely give a shit aren't at VP.
AM had a full preseason. Everyone else bar Citeh and possibly Spurs and Newcastle are worse than last season.
As for 6th place. Do you think our squad should be 14 points and 9 places worse than current 6th place side Newcastle?
Depends if you think Newcastle will finish in 6th and that far ahead of us. I don't. I can't really agree with you on where you think the team should be, because while last season was a nightmare for injuries, munity's, and stroppy pube-headed managers walking out on us on a whim, i thought the side was shot the season before and even if MON had stayed major surgery was needed. as i said in my opening post, i think we're a mid-table side and most people seem to agree. Thing is if we win at blackburn we'll be a mid-table side. If we don't, we'll probably still be within a win of being a mid-table side so you sort of wonder why when he's 3 points within meeting our expectations, why everyone wants him out so much.
oh come on, have you watched us lately?
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It was interesting to hear Paul Merson saying that the reason Villa, Albion and Wolves were so poor at home was because of the fans.
Perhaps it is the pysche of the midland people. At the moment we should be a solid mid table team. At this moment in time we have no direction and there is no obvious style or plan to the way we are playing.
Would love Gordon Cowans and Kmac to have a go with us fans giving them some patience and time to develop and no pressure. We need to recruit from within and keep it all in house. I would say most Villa fans would prefer to take a gamble on something like this than have a known quantity like Macleish or Houllier. We need to find our own Lambert etc.
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shit football - well most the managers we've had since Saunders could be brought up on that charge. Likewise the tactics, and DOL had a good line in defeatist attitude, not to mention MON in Europe and GH at times.
The shit football, the defeatist attitude and the defensive tactics?
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I agree about major surgery. I also had a reasonable amount of confidence in GH being the man to do it. I have very little in AM being the one to do it.
Everything points to Newcastle being more than capable of finishing that far ahead of us.
And how will a win against Blackburn make us midtable? We could still be 15th if Swansea and Albion both win, best case scenario is it puts us 13th. Surely midtable is 9th-11th, maybe 12th at 1 stretch?
well depends how exact you want to be. 10th is mid-table technically but i always use it as a term for teams in the middle third of the table and i don't think we're far off that currently. Certainly nearer that than the bottom three
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I don't expect us to finish ahead of Man City, Man U, Arsenal or Chelsea after 38 games.
I expect us to be in the mix amongst the next rank though - Spurs (most seasons), Liverpool, Everton, Newcastle.
well there you go. basically you're saying that even when we've sold all our best players we should still be competing with teams that will finish 5th or 6th. I can't see it myself
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A bit more exact than 8th-14th ;-) Not sure how the team that finished 8th can say they had a midtable season, just like the team that finished 14th did.
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"The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It's nothing of the kind. The game is about glory. It's about doing things in style, with a flourish; it's about going out to beat the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom." Danny Blanchflower
Just stumbled across this quote. It could have fitted neatly into any one of half a dozen furious threads currently running, but I've put it here because it sums up what my expectations are. Namely that we have a go at playing some positive football. It's not so much about league position or cup wins, it's more about attitude and approach. Surely the minimum we should all expect is for our team to attempt to win football matches. Is that so unrealistic an expectation?
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A bit more exact than 8th-14th ;-) Not sure how the team that finished 8th can say they had a midtable season, just like the team that finished 14th did.
True. Its more an average isn't it. you're in that also-ran group, and before the last month we were in that group - you could say we're still at the very bottom of it. none of them are going to worry chelsea in 5th but none of them look likely to get dragged into a relegation fight certanly. If we don't win soon we will be in that relegation fight but if we do, we'll be back in the thick of the also rans
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Greg you seem to be saying that we're about where we should be. You'd probably get on well with Fuckin 'Eck.
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6th-10th and playing much better football than we currently do. And looking there is something approaching a longterm plan in place rather than looking like we are just stumbling around in the dark with no idea what the next step should be.
see that does surprise me because we finished 9th with Houllier but he had Young, Downing NRC etc.. to call on. and yet you think the lowest we should finish is one place lower than last season and possibly 3 places higher?
Yes. MON left 5 days before the season, GH came in when the window was shut. We had the worst injury run i've ever known. There are 3 players gone from last season that I remotely give a shit aren't at VP.
AM had a full preseason. Everyone else bar Citeh and possibly Spurs and Newcastle are worse than last season.
As for 6th place. Do you think our squad should be 14 points and 9 places worse than current 6th place side Newcastle?
Depends if you think Newcastle will finish in 6th and that far ahead of us. I don't. I can't really agree with you on where you think the team should be, because while last season was a nightmare for injuries, munity's, and stroppy pube-headed managers walking out on us on a whim, i thought the side was shot the season before and even if MON had stayed major surgery was needed. as i said in my opening post, i think we're a mid-table side and most people seem to agree. Thing is if we win at blackburn we'll be a mid-table side. If we don't, we'll probably still be within a win of being a mid-table side so you sort of wonder why when he's 3 points within meeting our expectations, why everyone wants him out so much.
oh come on, have you watched us lately?
well yes. Its awful for the most part with a few glimpses of hope here and there but performances aside and given the crap he's inherited and not forgetting some of his buys haven't exactly shone, he's still not far off being points wise where the majority on here feel we should be - 6 points seperate us from 9th and while the football is bobbins, MON's wasn't exactly brilliant. In fact the midfield that dragged his side above the current one, cost getting on for 30m even ignoring Barry and Downing and all of them are now playing for sides in the top 6 less petrov who is very very old. This thread was never meant as a defence of Mcleish but we really have too poor a side to expect more thn 10th or so at best
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Greg you seem to be saying that we're about where we should be. You'd probably get on well with Fuckin 'Eck.
I think we should be mid-table and as 10th is currently 6 points off where we are, we're not far off that.
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More than the actual style of play it's the philosophy that this is the way we should be playing that bothers me the most. That last week vs Man City was somehow an excellent strategy, or that yesterday had we been more clinical we'd have won, ignoring the fact that had Wigan been even a little clinical we'd have been battered. We have the guns in this squad to score way more goals than we have. If you accept that we are going to concede a few then we may as well go for it. McLeish has taken the position that if we are going to struggle to keep the ball out of the net then we may as well not be adventurous and instead try and scrape results.
Truth is we should be an upper mid table team. What we have instead is a team devoid of confidence, and compounding that negativity every week. I do wonder what each weeks practice looks like. What do they talk about? How do they scrimmage? You get the impression that they practice 10 behind the ball and hit it long because they've done that better than any other team this season.
If McLeish really, truly, honestly wants them to play more aggressively and openly as his team selections sometime suggest, then the players aren't listening. If he is sending attacking teams out but with the same negative message then it's all window dressing and he will never be brave enough to change. That's where he will lose those of us clinging to any hope tht he will come good.
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See that's where we differ Greg. I don't think our squad should be as poor as it's performing. The fact that it is, and has for most of the two thirds of the season can surely be largely blamed on the manager and coaches.
If for arguments sake we accept that the obvious 6 sides have better squads, there is no one else whose squad should worry us. The fact that so many are currently looking better and certainly playing better and look far more cohesive is what is causing the discontent. Well it's certainly what's causing it for me.
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Most teams would miss Barry, Milner, Ash and Downing (the Downing of last season, not the one currently hiding for the Redscouse) that much is obvious.
But it's not as if we haven't had any investment since those departures.
We also have a number of promising young players who we should be utilising better.
Most managers outside of the usual suspects + Newcastle would be happy to shape something approximating a decent midfield from the likes of Ireland, N'Zogbia, Delph, Petrov, Bannan, Albrighton, Gardner and Clark.
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The shit football, the defeatist attitude and the defensive tactics?
Don't be silly Zogman.
It's because he used to manage blues.
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I still maintain there is a decent team within our squad.
If we had (for example) Rednap managing the Villa, would we be where we are now ?
I very much doubt it.
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Greg you seem to be saying that we're about where we should be. You'd probably get on well with Fuckin 'Eck.
We are also 6 points off relegation
I think we should be mid-table and as 10th is currently 6 points off where we are, we're not far off that.
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The Villa players are just not giving 100%. I do beleive there are quite a few Villa fans who have an unrealistic expectation of the club, but that is the same at many clubs.Its difficult for a club like Villa who have had success in a lot of people's living memory, even though it was over 30 years ago. Im sure some Everton fans feel the same.
At Villa the problem now is the club is not fulfilling its potential on many levels from the owner down to the players. You only have to look at Newcastle this year. They were being touted for relegation but look at them. The excuses stop there for me as I'm sure Villa Park would have been rocking if Mcleish had done what Pardew has managed to do.
It's important to feel your club is heading in the right direction, then fans will be more patient. I don't think anyone feels Villa are heading upwards, so the fans reaction is perfectly understandable in my view.
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There is definitely some decent players still at our club.
Given, Gabby, Bent, Ireland are all quality players, who would easily get in any side outside of Man City, Man Utd and Tottenham. N'zogbia also has the talent to be put in that category, although the majority of his form hasn't suggested that.
Petrov, Clark, Bannan are all good players whilst Gardner has shown a lot of potential. Herd is also reasonable enough as is Albrighton.
Defensively is much more of an issue admittedly, although MON didn't have the same trouble organising them as Houllier and McLeish have.
Bottom line is that although we've lost some very good players, we should in no way be as low in the league as we are.
More importantly, in no way should we be seeing the limpless, pathetic surrender football that has been served up for much of the season.
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Maybe they should make merson watch every game between now and the end of the season, same for monkey man THEN they can decide if were being unrealistic
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For me I guess the expectation is 6-10 this season, we're not good enough to be higher but we've got enough quality in the squad and he had a full pre-season so I'd expect us to stayed where we were or improved. I know we lost good players in the summer but last season had so many factors that had a negative effect that 9th wasn't a true reflection of that squad. Take away the period between october and december when he had no fit forwards or midfielders and I genuinely think we could've got top 6 last season.
This season we've drawn 10 out of 25 and only won 6. If we'd drawn 5 and won 8 we'd have the same points but I doubt so many people would be bemoaning the lack of ambition.
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"The great fallacy is that the game is first and last about winning. It's nothing of the kind. The game is about glory. It's about doing things in style, with a flourish; it's about going out to beat the other lot, not waiting for them to die of boredom." Danny Blanchflower
That Blanchflower quote would make McLeish physically sick.
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It was interesting to hear Paul Merson saying that the reason Villa, Albion and Wolves were so poor at home was because of the fans.
I wonder when was the last time Paul had to put his hand in his pocket and buy a ticket for a match?
Sorry but I dont think I have ever heard Mers. have something interesting to say. Fantastic player, nice bloke, but interesting insights and opinions ?
He is a bit like someone who gets talking to you about football enthusiastically, and you agree with them even though you think they are talking bollox because you dont want to bother getting in an argument.
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We’re a middle of the table club at best but for a few historical blips and I believe that’s where we should be again this season. There’s little doubt that the players are underperforming and that McLeish is struggling to get the best out of the team, hamstrung by his own lack of tactical nous.
Having said all of that, we are 6 points away from the relegation zone and I firmly believe that the people running our club will see that as acceptable. If we play as we did on Saturday for the rest of this season, we will stay up and that will be job done for Lerner and McLeish.
At this moment in time the feelings of the fans are frankly the last thing on the mind of the board as they aggressively seek to control the wage bill without too much consequence. Quite where we go next season, after much shaking of hands from the management and board on a job well done, I really don’t know. All I do know is that there will be bigger empty gaps at VP next season, but still not enough to warrant a sacking of the manager.
If you don’t like it, complain to the club but please bear in mind we stopped being a democracy when we sold our shares to Lerner and he’s perfectly entitled to ignore everything we say.
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Do you honestly think Norwich and Sunderland have better players than us
It's a team game not a talent contest.
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See that's where we differ Greg. I don't think our squad should be as poor as it's performing. The fact that it is, and has for most of the two thirds of the season can surely be largely blamed on the manager and coaches.
If for arguments sake we accept that the obvious 6 sides have better squads, there is no one else whose squad should worry us. The fact that so many are currently looking better and certainly playing better and look far more cohesive is what is causing the discontent. Well it's certainly what's causing it for me.
Now i'd say Bent and Gabby are probably as good a strikeforce you'll likely to see outside the top4 albiet we have precious little in reserve, but the midfield and defence?
Ireland has flattered to decieve and whether he's gradually improving or not its still getting on for four seasons since he was a force. N'zogbia i was never convinced about anyway, and though again he's shown glimpses he could come good, i'm not sure how "good" that will be. Petrov is well past it, and Delpth is a 2nd division player who got lucky. The youth is still unproven apart from albrighton who admittedly Mcleish hasn't got the best out of.
I won't go through the defence becuse we all know what's wrong there, but my view personally is the midfield and defence are no better than anyone around us and probably worse in many cases
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Big yes.
Could you imagine if someone like Brendan Rogers took over as manager and wanted to bring his passing style in? The Villa fans would not have the patience for him to bring in his style of football, even though it would be beneficial in the long run.
Will we challenge top 4 ever again without the big money? No. So, is it worth just trying to play good football and finish midtable than play shit football and finish midtable? I'd rather watch good football.
In fact, where's that Room 101 thread so I can add Villa fans to it...
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I expect 7th-12th, Villa to beat the teams around them from time to time. Don't think that's an unrealistic expectation. Certainly performing way below what I'd predicted this season.
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Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if I am repeating anybody.
What we do not expect is capitulation and playing for a draw. We expect villa to manfully take to the field hoping to beat whoever our opponent is. After that, we finish where we deserve based on our efforts.
This squad, in my view, is better than tenth, not quite top six. We have lost the best players of the side that finished top six three years in a row, but have added a £20m striker since then and a better 'keeper. As such, in my view, we should only be a shade off that side. The difference is that lot played for the manager (whatever we thought of him) whereas this one has lost them or is instructing them to be negative thus making them cagey and nervous.
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I thought it would be a tough season,but I expected more than six wins by March.
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6 wins all season is fucking appalling by anyone's standards.
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I think what has happened is this...
As a Villa fan [and this probably goes for most footie fans] I have hope every season that maybe, just maybe we might win something this year.
I have a hope that maybe the team could challenge for the top places and hope that maybe it may be our year for you know what. I also have hope at the first League Cup match that maybe we will win that.
But.... Here is what has changed for me, I no longer have any hope for any of the above, all I have is the realistic view of mid table and a flirt with either the top or bottom 6.
We used to have the joke of Villa not being able to have two good seasons in a row, then under Gregory we couldnt manage two good half seasons in a row, now we can't manage to have two good half matches in a row!
I don't hope for anything better, I just expect us to be as we are. A poor footballing side with a poor management team and no direction
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I expect a Villa team that has a go and can come off the pitch knowing they have given a 110%. If that is the case I would applaud them off as I did against Arsenal.
I also expect a manager paid £m to have some tactical nous and the ab;ility to manage and motivate a bunch of reasonably talented players.
We should be battling between 6th and 10th with the current squad and are underachieving. I am far from happy.
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6 wins all season is fucking appalling by anyone's standards.
Wigan, QPR and Wolves would be happier with it.
Which I suppose says it all.
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We’re a middle of the table club at best but for a few historical blips and I believe that’s where we should be again this season. There’s little doubt that the players are underperforming and that McLeish is struggling to get the best out of the team, hamstrung by his own lack of tactical nous.
Having said all of that, we are 6 points away from the relegation zone and I firmly believe that the people running our club will see that as acceptable. If we play as we did on Saturday for the rest of this season, we will stay up and that will be job done for Lerner and McLeish.
At this moment in time the feelings of the fans are frankly the last thing on the mind of the board as they aggressively seek to control the wage bill without too much consequence. Quite where we go next season, after much shaking of hands from the management and board on a job well done, I really don’t know. All I do know is that there will be bigger empty gaps at VP next season, but still not enough to warrant a sacking of the manager.
If you don’t like it, complain to the club but please bear in mind we stopped being a democracy when we sold our shares to Lerner and he’s perfectly entitled to ignore everything we say.
The very, very least of our expectations, is top six/top eight minimum in my opinion. Anything below that is simply a huge undersell of our club. At our best, being run properly with ambition and investment, we are a club that's capable of (and should be) challenging for everything.
Ninety-nine percent of clubs in England would love to have the blips of success that we have had.
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6 wins all season is fucking appalling by anyone's standards.
Wigan, QPR and Wolves would be happier with it.
Which I suppose says it all.
Mind you, we've only lost one more than Arsenal.
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At this moment in time the feelings of the fans are frankly the last thing on the mind of the board as they aggressively seek to control the wage bill without too much consequence. Quite where we go next season, after much shaking of hands from the management and board on a job well done, I really don’t know. All I do know is that there will be bigger empty gaps at VP next season, but still not enough to warrant a sacking of the manager.
I take your point, Neil, but the two highlighted comments are the crux of it. Ignoring the fans will result in smaller attendances next season and this will drive down revenue (both from attendances and merchandising) - which means the squeeze on salaries will have to continue.
A negative downward spiral.
If you don’t like it, complain to the club but please bear in mind we stopped being a democracy when we sold our shares to Lerner and he’s perfectly entitled to ignore everything we say.
You're right, except for the need on the part of the club to build revenue - democracy is not just about voting rights, it's about the ability to withdraw / reduce support, stop / reduce spending and disadvantage the club financially.
I'm not suggesting that a large number of the dedicated fans will stop going to games - although a fair few will; I'm thinking about the corporate box-dwellers who decide the football is just too sterile, the TV companies who save the world from our dreadful football by reducing coverage from VP, the sponsors who find more attractive sponsorship options, etc.
If $$$ is the key criterion, fine; but it should not mean a total disregard for the football and the fans.
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Fans should always have the highest expectations for Aston Villa.
However the current side should expect to be at least midtable. Top 10, certainly.
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Fans should always have the highest expectations for Aston Villa.
However the current side should expect to be at least midtable. Top 10, certainly.
Precisely we are hugely underperforming in every meaning of the word.
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However the current side should expect to be at least midtable. Top 10, certainly.
And they could be if we played with a little more guile and imagination.
Shackling (or not playing) our most creative players is a recipe for disaster.
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However the current side should expect to be at least midtable. Top 10, certainly.
And they could be if we played with a little more guile and imagination.
Shackling (or not playing) our most creative players is a recipe for disaster.
Replace 'a little more' with 'any' and I think that's essentially the problem.
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Not read this thread, but here's what I think:-
A lot of the forward players and the keeper are top 6 quality. The defence on paper is mid-table, but has played awful individually at times and cost us games. So the balance is higher mid-table, but the bad defending has dragged us down to lower mid-table.
For all the talk of us 'finishing 9th' last season, the 2nd have of the season form (as in post-Darren Bent) was top 6 calibre. Not replacing Downing and Ash drops you to mid-table again, which compounded with the re-curring theme of shit defending leaves us lower than that.
The irony being the manager has a reputation as defensive, yet that has been our biggest problem this season.
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At this moment in time the feelings of the fans are frankly the last thing on the mind of the board as they aggressively seek to control the wage bill without too much consequence. Quite where we go next season, after much shaking of hands from the management and board on a job well done, I really don’t know. All I do know is that there will be bigger empty gaps at VP next season, but still not enough to warrant a sacking of the manager.
I take your point, Neil, but the two highlighted comments are the crux of it. Ignoring the fans will result in smaller attendances next season and this will drive down revenue (both from attendances and merchandising) - which means the squeeze on salaries will have to continue.
A negative downward spiral.
I have no doubt that it will be a downward spiral, but the board seem to be of the impression that by cutting the wage bill and putting all the focus on developing the youth team we can arrest the downward spiral in a year or so.... They are playing a risky game and I'm not convinced that there are enough 'football' people at the club ala Stride and Deadly to ask big questions as to the wisdom of this strategy.
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At this moment in time the feelings of the fans are frankly the last thing on the mind of the board as they aggressively seek to control the wage bill without too much consequence. Quite where we go next season, after much shaking of hands from the management and board on a job well done, I really don’t know. All I do know is that there will be bigger empty gaps at VP next season, but still not enough to warrant a sacking of the manager.
I take your point, Neil, but the two highlighted comments are the crux of it. Ignoring the fans will result in smaller attendances next season and this will drive down revenue (both from attendances and merchandising) - which means the squeeze on salaries will have to continue.
A negative downward spiral.
I have no doubt that it will be a downward spiral, but the board seem to be of the impression that by cutting the wage bill and putting all the focus on developing the youth team we can arrest the downward spiral in a year or so.... They are playing a risky game and I'm not convinced that there are enough 'football' people at the club ala Stride and Deadly to ask big questions as to the wisdom of this strategy.
Agreed, Neil.
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With the players we have, by this stage of the season we should be so comfortable in mid table that the season is effectively over for us.
All my life as a Villa fan, I've never really expected us to do more than finish somewhere in the top half of the table except when we were in Divs 2 or 3. The one thing that I do expect from any Aston Villa team is that they play as well as they possibly can and then I can live with the reality that for most of my time as a Villa fan with a couple of notable exceptions we have been a distinctly mid table team.
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I don't expect the world, but it grates when I keep seeing teams that we are of similar status to overtake us and compete whilst we stand still - in fact go backwards.
Man City being an obvious exception to the rule, but Tottenham in the first 10 or so Premiership seasons were always bottom half and now look at them, that could and should have been us if better managerial decisions from the top were made at a number of different times over the years when we were on the cusp of great things. Newcastle have come back up with a championship side and are looking in good shape. Even Norwich and Swansea are doing better. And Stoke. Bloody Stoke. Everton are having a real bad time of it too but no doubt they can look at us and say well we haven't spent anywhere near what they have and we aren't that bad !
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Goalkeeper top 6
Defence bottom half
Midfield Championship
Forwards Top 6
Overall bottom half
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Mid Table -Top half mixing with Newcastle, Everton and Sunderland for positions 7-10. The league is weaker than it was 3-4 years ago
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22. Aston Villa 42 8 12 22 45 79 -34 36
The above was our record in 1986-87 that cost two managers their job in that season.
Admittedly that was in a 42 game season. With the exception of the goal difference, there are some comparisons to this seasons win ratio.
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Goalkeeper top 6
Defence bottom half
Midfield Championship
Forwards Top 6
Overall bottom half
Thats a pretty decent assessment.
Although, I personally think we should be comfortably mid-table, no lower than 12th with the players we have..
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Goalkeeper top 6
Defence bottom half
Midfield Championship
Forwards Top 6
Overall bottom half
Thats a pretty decent assessment.
Although, I personally think we should be comfortably mid-table, no lower than 12th with the players we have..
The first choice midfield is not as bad as painted here; mid-Premiership.
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See that's where we differ Greg. I don't think our squad should be as poor as it's performing. The fact that it is, and has for most of the two thirds of the season can surely be largely blamed on the manager and coaches.
If for arguments sake we accept that the obvious 6 sides have better squads, there is no one else whose squad should worry us. The fact that so many are currently looking better and certainly playing better and look far more cohesive is what is causing the discontent. Well it's certainly what's causing it for me.
Now i'd say Bent and Gabby are probably as good a strikeforce you'll likely to see outside the top4 albiet we have precious little in reserve, but the midfield and defence?
Ireland has flattered to decieve and whether he's gradually improving or not its still getting on for four seasons since he was a force. N'zogbia i was never convinced about anyway, and though again he's shown glimpses he could come good, i'm not sure how "good" that will be. Petrov is well past it, and Delpth is a 2nd division player who got lucky. The youth is still unproven apart from albrighton who admittedly Mcleish hasn't got the best out of.
I won't go through the defence becuse we all know what's wrong there, but my view personally is the midfield and defence are no better than anyone around us and probably worse in many cases
But the midfield and defence shouldn't be as bad. That's my point (again). With Given in goal and a back 5 of Collins, Dunne, Warnock, Cuellar, Hutton plus the youngsters should be performing better than it does.
Same goes for the midfield. When you add the youngsters, in theory while it's not a CL midfield it should be able to do better. Like pass the ball and move around a bit to create space.
The question is, why are both defence and midfield so god awful so often? I cannot accept that a good manager couldn't get more out of the current squad.
Look at the respective defences and midfields of the clubs from Newcastle down who are above us right now. When the transfer window shut in the summer how many of them would you have swapped with ours?
It's easy with hindsight to do it now based on actual performances, but back then?
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The question is, why are both defence and midfield so god awful so often? I cannot accept that a good manager couldn't get more out of the current squad.
How many times has that been written about struggling teams? And how strange it is when a miraculous turnaround occurs in the players' attitude and form, just as a new manager waddles in through the door.
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6 wins all season is fucking appalling by anyone's standards.
Especially when you factor in that 3 of those were against the bottom club at the time, one was against a Wolves side so out of form they sacked their manager a couple of games later, and one was at home to a side that had been promoted.
Granted the Chelsea win was an excellent performance. Why aren't the players who performed so brilliantly that day, Ireland and to a lesser extent N'Zogbia still in the side?
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I thought 10th/11th. I certainly wasn't expecting 6 wins and 15th place. In spite of what the manager says i can't see us climbing much higher than where we are now.
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I thought 10th/11th. I certainly wasn't expecting 6 wins and 15th place. In spite of what the manager says i can't see us climbing much higher than where we are now.
Rather than just league position (though that is poor enough), it is also about the way we look like we're evolving on the pitch, the kind of football we look like we're developing.
Hmmm.
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No, the problem is not fans expectations its the crap football they are asked to pay a fortune to watch.
Most pundits are divs, which is no surprise as for 15 years their lives have had an emphasis on using their feet and their very full wallets. With any thinking taking place in their pants when its waggy time. I'm not surprised that chumps like Keown and Shearer struggle to fathom the basics of any job where they need to offer a little insight and communicate that insight well.
Give me a sentence from Danny Baker once a week rather than the miles of crap spouted in column inches by ex pros.
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I think we have the right to expect an awful lot more than a point at the bottom club who, if they had just one of our strikers in their team, would have done us by four or five at the weekend.
I have slept on it twice before commenting but Saturday was the straw that broke the camels back for me.
Get shot because it will only get worse now the away fans have turned. If we don't win at Blackburn then the atmosphere for the Fulham game will be vile.
We won't get close to getting relegated but that will be in spite of him rather than because of him.
Let Kevin Mac and Sid take care of things until the end of the season when a drastic overhaul from the top down is required. And we will need to spend this summer as well.
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The table does not lie. We are where we deserve to be. We will finish the season around the same place.
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League position is only part of things - performances count for a lot. I hate it when Villa lose but if they do so with spirit, vigour and effort at least I have a feeling that going to watch them was at least worth it.
At the start of each season there is a hope that we may qualify for Europe or win a cup but above all for me is the excitement of going to watch the team play with my son. This season the football is so bad that excitement isn't there and I doubt it will be until we change the manager or he changes his tactics.
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League position is only part of things - performances count for a lot. I hate it when Villa lose but if they do so with spirit, vigour and effort at least I have a feeling that going to watch them was at least worth it.
Exactly. The only time I've felt like that this season is when we lost to Arsenal at home.
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It's not just that the quality of football is so bad. It's the fact there are few if any signs of it getting better and no signs of a long term plan for either the club itself on or off the pitch.
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In general I'd say my expectations for Villa are 6th - 12th, with the odd campaign in Europe and the occasional cup run. But for this season, with the squad, manager and the way the club's been run, we're about where I thought we would be. Only the proper shit teams are below us and IF we stay up, it'll be because the others are so bad, not because we've been any good.
I've been saying that Chelsea fans should be more patient with AVB, but when they pull me up on my feelings on McLeish I point out that AVB might turn things round, given time, but I have absolutely no faith in McLeish and feel that the longer he stays here the further down he's going to drag us.
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Not sure what everyone elses expectations are but given the players we sold in the summer and what we bought in, I was expecting to be finishing at least 10th as I fully understand the constraints McClueless has had to work under and the rebuilding that needs to be done. Instead we find ourselves sitting in 15th place, playing absolute shit football (which we all knew would happen) and now look like we will soon be dragged right into the mix to get relelgated. I believe we should be atleast another 8-10points better off - we havent even reached fecking 30 points yet! FFS!
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I believe we should be atleast another 8-10points better off
10 points would put us joint 7th with Liverpool. We aren't that good.
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I believe we should be atleast another 8-10points better off
10 points would put us joint 7th with Liverpool. We aren't that good.
Hence why i said 8-10 points. Given the players we have and the speaking to fans of other teams, we are in a false position. We should have beaten QPR home & away, Everton at home and Wigan away. Thats 12 points that we should have got! Ok, take everton out of the equation and thats 9 points. You're telling me that we are not good enough (on paper) to beat QPR home & Away and wigan away? really?
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We got 4 points from those four fixtures though, not zero. Meaning we would be 6 points better off had we beaten QPR twice and Wigan on Saturday, eight if we had beaten Everton.
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Of course we are. But the game isn't played on paper - if it was Man City would have much more than a 2 point lead on the top.
Even the 8 points would but us in 8th place, which I suppose is our optimum position with the squad we have.
And also using that logic you'd need to subtract the three points we got at Chelsea, as they should be beating us on their own patch.
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Results are poor, but not poor enough to justify sacking McLeish. The combination of poor results, dire football and a complete lack of progress (both with regard to performances and results) make the case stronger.
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Of course we are. But the game isn't played on paper - if it was Man City would have much more than a 2 point lead on the top.
Even the 8 points would but us in 8th place, which I suppose is our optimum position with the squad we have.
I know its not based on paper but with the player we have, we should have picked up a few more points than what we have now. I still believe had we had a better manager, we wouldnt be 15th but more 8th (maybe thats being a bit too optimistic), 9th or 10th (more realistic) and thinking of pushing for europa league spot not looking over our shoulder at a relegation battle.
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I know its not based on paper but with the player we have, we should have picked up a few more points than what we have now. I still believe had we had a better manager, we wouldnt be 15th but more 8th (maybe thats being a bit too optimistic), 9th or 10th (more realistic) and thinking of pushing for europa league spot not looking over our shoulder at a relegation battle.
That I agree with - especially the 9th or 10th bit.
Although I'd say realistically we can look over our shoulder at the relegation scrap, but we're not in it.
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I agree we are not in it but I feel we will be dragged into it. I really hope im proved wrong and eat humble pie but we just dont look like beating anyone at the moment. Even blackburn fancy their chances against us!
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I think with the younger players we have emerging and a few of the better more experienced ones Given,Bent,Gabby,Ireland we probably should be better placed in the league. A couple of times we've witnessed
whats possible with the right mixture and balance, so for me it's down to selection from the coach and on the players side commitment. Our squad is as strong on paper as over half the teams above us.