Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: LupoldMox on January 29, 2012, 10:39:13 PM
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Last year at Arsenal I posted a video of us having a great party under the stand at Arsenal. The video I took today was less fun. It shows how many members of Metropolitan Police's finest it takes to arrest a Villa fan for smoking. Massive over reaction from the authorities. They don't like being filmed, do they? I hope the guy got home alright.
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I can see what you're trying to do but how much sympathy do you expect when you post a video of the police dealing with someone breaking the law?
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The law Adam sates absolutely clearly in black and white that the police may only use PROPORTIONATE force to make an arrest. I hope you never find yourself in the position that young man was today. I don't suppose you will because obviously you never break any law.
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Wouldn't some of those numerous stewards/police have been better deployed elsewhere.
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There certainly seems to be a lot of police there, but it's hard to see what exactly is going on in the video. What force was used, and was it excessive?
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What are the police accused of doing? Yes there seems to be a lot of them but they don't seem to be physically abusing him.
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Smoking a cigarette may be breaking the law - but it doesn't warrant 10 coppers and 20 stewards piling in - they gave him a right pasting and there were little kids sitting nearby who were terrified.
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The video only shows the aftermath - in the 2 or 3 minutes leading up to this it was pandemonium. All someone needed to do was say "you can't smoke in here - put it out".
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Did this happen in block 20 and was that why it took so long to get out?
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It only went calm like that when they saw we were filming them. They gave him a right pasting. He called to me. "I can't go with them they are all pulling me in different directions". It was absolutely disgraceful. I am not anti police I AM totally anti football fans being treated like scum with no rights or protection from those charged with upholding the law.
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Yes i was Block 20
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to be fair smoking is now on a par with peadophillia with the PC brigade.Even the supermarkets have now boarded up the displays like they're selling hardcore porn or something. The guy was probably lucky he wasn't taken outside the ground and shot the way things are going.
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Looks like total overreaction. The guy was wrong but no need for that and the potential danger it caused to others.
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If smoking in the ground is such a big deal, why don't they act consistently? They know that people smoke in the bogs and do nothing about it. Then they charge in like lunatics on this occasion.
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Give a 'man' a uniform ...
The word 'PROPORTIONATE' would be lost on them Brian, 'PROPORTIONATE' is probably 6 coppers holding him down , 4 frisking him for offensive 'weapons' - cigarettes in this case - and another 6 beating him to a pulp for offending a Stadium Rule.
Mad days.
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Give a 'man' a uniform ...
The word 'PROPORTIONATE' would be lost on them Brian, 'PROPORTIONATE' is probably 6 coppers holding him down , 4 frisking him for offensive 'weapons' - cigarettes in this case - and another 6 beating him to a pulp for offending a Stadium Rule.
Mad days.
Which isn't happening in that clip, so please, stick to the facts.
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In future I am going to carry cards on me with my contact number and the very next time I see a Villa fan being treated worse than an animal for some minor infringement of the law I shall get a card to the victim of excessive force and bring a private prosecution against whoever was responsible for it. I have had enough of this one law for football fans and another for everybody else.
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I don't like to see overreaction anywhere, but let's be honest, sparking up when you're quite clearly not supposed to do so is a bit dimwitted.
The only place I've ever seen people flouting the smoking ban is at football matches. It's like people thnk it's ok because of the circumstances.
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What exactly happened to him?
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Dave, as I and my son have said the violence against L** ********* occurred prior to that clip. The clip shows the number of stewards and police involved. I was an eye witness to the violence so was my son and so were dozens of Villa fans who were if anything more angry than I was.
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There was an incident, start of second half, youngster walks into stand with beer in hand. We noticed it, minutes later steward came in took said youth out. No problem, no big deal. That is what should have happened with smoker.
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Dave, as I and my son have said the violence against Lee Bannerjee occurred prior to that clip. The clip shows the number of stewards and police involved. I was an eye witness to the violence so was my son and so were dozens of Villa fans who were if anything more angry than I was.
The trouble is that the clip only shows what it shows, which isn't violence. I didn't see what happened, but phrases like "beating him to a pulp" don;t do any future action any good.
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And nobody here is defending smoking. We're just trying to stick up for each other.
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What happened when he first started smoking in the stand? Did another fan complain, did the stewards/police ask him not to, did he refuse/cause any trouble?
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I have never said he was beaten to a pulp nor has my son. Tim was clearly hyperbolic in the way he described a purely imaginary scene. If my word that the police and stewards massively overreacted is not good enough for you Dave, sobeit.
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I have never said he was beaten to a pulp nor has my son. Tim was clearly hyperbolic in the way he described a purely imaginary scene. If my word that the police and stewards massively overreacted is not good enough for you Dave, sobeit.
Tim used the phrase. I believe you without a second's hesitation, but as you know, when making a complaint proof has to be overwhelming.
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I have never said he was beaten to a pulp nor has my son. Tim was clearly hyperbolic in the way he described a purely imaginary scene. If my word that the police and stewards massively overreacted is not good enough for you Dave, sobeit.
You said they "gave him a right pasting".
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Riss, the man was spotted by a steward lighting a cigarette at the end of the game. Two or three stewards came flying though us to get at him knocking me and several others arse over tip barging through the seats.
More stewards followed and then police. He did not fight, he was not drunk, he was not foul mouthed or abusive.
I honestly cannot believe that we now are in times when Villa fans will not stick up for their own kind and the consensus of opinion is that he broke the law so he got what was coming to him.
I do not smoke but it is quite clear to me that smokers and smoking have become demonized and a combination of the evils of smoking tobacco, being a football fan and not coming from London are all the justification needed to become a non citizen without rights of any kind.
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Riss, the man was spotted by a steward lighting a cigarette at the end of the game. Two or three stewards came flying though us to get at him knocking me and several others arse over tip barging through the seats.
More stewards followed and then police. He did not fight, he was not drunk, he was not foul mouthed or abusive.
I honestly cannot believe that we now are in times when Villa fans will not stick up for their own kind and the consensus of opinion is that he broke the law so he got what was coming to him.
I do not smoke but it is quite clear to me that smokers and smoking have become demonized and a combination of the evils of smoking tobacco, being a football fan and not coming from London are all the justification needed to become a non citizen without rights of any kind.
I haven't come down on one side or the other brian, was just interested in a bit of clarification as the facts seemed a bit hazy and weren't cleared up by a video of the aftermath.
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I didn't post the clip asking for future action or to make an official police complaint. I posted to ask if anyone knew if the guy got home OK. It was the end of the game, we were all pissed off, and the last thing you want to see is a fellow Villa fan getting dragged off in handcuffs (which he "overwhelmingly" was)
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Right, I'm going to bed in a minute. What I saw with my own eyes no more than twenty feet from the incident was first one then two then five then ten then more stewards and police pile into and on top of Lee. The best way I can describe the violence committed on him was that he was like a ball in a rugby scrum or a rag doll being pulled apart by dogs then heaved and dragged by whatever part of his anatomy they could grab along the concrete between the seats then heaved over the steel barrier between the home and away fans at which point they realized they were being filmed and allowed him to get to his feet. In my book that is a pasting. Villa fans you disappoint me.
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Right, I'm going to bed in a minute. What I saw with my own eyes no more than twenty feet from the incident was first one then two then five then ten then more stewards and police pile into and on top of Lee. The best way I can describe the violence committed on him was that he was like a ball in a rugby scrum or a rag doll being pulled apart by dogs then heaved and dragged by whatever part of his anatomy they could grab along the concrete between the seats then heaved over the steel barrier between the home and away fans at which point they realized they were being filmed and allowed him to get to his feet. In my book that is a pasting. Villa fans you disappoint me.
And you did the right thing by filming, pointing out to the police/stewards that you were doing so and making sure they were identified.
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Was that you in the cap, Brian?
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I honestly cannot believe that we now are in times when Villa fans will not stick up for their own kind and the consensus of opinion is that he broke the law so he got what was coming to him.
It's not a case of not sticking up for Villa fans.
A video was posted with the description of someone being arrested for breaking the law, then the video shows the police doing very little whatsoever. In that first post there isn't much the guy, or anyone else, can complain about.
If, as you say, the guy was dealt with overly physically then that seems out of order but the initial post didn't state any of that.
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Adam - the initial post asked the question of how many policeman it takes to arrest a man for smoking. The video shows the answer. Too many. It was an over reaction. And it made everyone who saw the whole incident feel even worse about a pretty crap 60 minutes.
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Adam - the initial post asked the question of how many policeman it takes to arrest a man for smoking. The video shows the answer. Too many. It was an over reaction. And it made everyone who saw the whole incident feel even worse about a pretty crap 60 minutes.
But what the video doesn't show (and videos rarely do in these circumstances) is the context. The 10 minutes preceding the start of your video could've involved him kicking off on the one steward who asked him to stop smoking and so the police were called in to protect the steward who was only doing his job.
Now people who witnessed the event say it wasn't like this but your post showed a video of a guy in cuffs with a few coppers and stewards hanging around and the comment that he'd been nicked for breaking the law. It's hardly damning proof of police brutality.
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Have to agree. If someone is smoking you tell them to put it out. If they refuse then you get heavy and escort them out the ground - i wouldn't have thought it would take more than a couple of people though. You don't call out half the police force in London to deal with it. But as Brian said, smoking is demonised now and the jobsworth halfwits who do these sort of jobs and work for the police lap up all that stuff.
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The police are bullies.
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I'm guessing there were so many stewards and police there was because it was near to where the fans were segregated.
I'm sorry, but the reason it all kicked off was because a football fan (who happened to be a Villa fan) was in the wrong, the police may have over-reacted and two wrongs don't make a right.
I went to Deportiva La Coruna a few years back and got battered by a copper (along with other Villa fans) with his truncheon as he was trying to move the crowd forward and couldn't/wouldn't speak English and I couldn't understand his Spanish. That was an over reaction!
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I remember being at the Reebok for the semi and sparking up. At the time you could still smoke in most grounds so I had no idea it was no smoking there. I was in the seats and a steward in a gangway saw me and motioned to put it out. I mouthed "can't you smoke in here?" he shook his head, I put cig out. All done with the minimum of fuss and plenty of politeness.
I did spark up again at 2 nil down though and when a fan behind me said you couldn't smoke I said it's okay, this is a lucky one. We promptly scored about 30 seconds later prompting much hailing of the lucky cigarette (include arms up and done in worship).
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I didn't post the clip asking for future action or to make an official police complaint. I posted to ask if anyone knew if the guy got home OK. It was the end of the game, we were all pissed off, and the last thing you want to see is a fellow Villa fan getting dragged off in handcuffs (which he "overwhelmingly" was)
Lee, who I had never met before today, was sitting directly in front of me on the coach on the way down. Mainly as I was on my own - my two sons had gone to the match their own separate ways - I was chatting to him and his mates, one of whom was sitting next to me, throughout the journey. Despite the fact that they were all in their early 20's and I am 30 years older we had a good talk, which made the journey go much quicker. They were a good set of lads and certainly Lee did not come across as aggressive in any way, albeit it was clearly rather silly of him to light up whilst still in the ground.
Unfortunately he was not released in time to catch the coach home.
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I went to Deportiva La Coruna a few years back and got battered by a copper (along with other Villa fans) with his truncheon as he was trying to move the crowd forward and couldn't/wouldn't speak English and I couldn't understand his Spanish. That was an over reaction!
I have got a photo of someone with some bruises on the shoulder from that game.
We were standing at the back of that stand when they came steaming in for no reason at all. Mind you, it is expected in countries like that.
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Sounds like disgusting behaviour from the police and stewards. I got caught a few times when these regulations came in, and all stewards needed to do was ask me to stop. The coppers obviously knew what they were doing was over the top, as they moderated their behaviour when made aware they were being filmed.
Brian and his son's integrity should never be in doubt on this.
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I tought the Police and Stewards were very good yesterday.
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Give a 'man' a uniform ...
The word 'PROPORTIONATE' would be lost on them Brian, 'PROPORTIONATE' is probably 6 coppers holding him down , 4 frisking him for offensive 'weapons' - cigarettes in this case - and another 6 beating him to a pulp for offending a Stadium Rule.
Mad days.
Which isn't happening in that clip, so please, stick to the facts.
ok, you own this site.
I've just seen the video and the guy was surrounded by police and stewards and possibly had to go to a police station afterwards and then, who knows , and just for smoking a cigarette.
As Pauline says, aren't there more important things to do ?
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It only went calm like that when they saw we were filming them. They gave him a right pasting. He called to me. "I can't go with them they are all pulling me in different directions". It was absolutely disgraceful. I am not anti police I AM totally anti football fans being treated like scum with no rights or protection from those charged with upholding the law.
It does make you think what goes through their heads, why they seem it necessary to wade in when the incident could have been resolved quickly and peacefully. Though much has changed for the better in policing since the 70's and 80's, football matches see a different mentality. As for the stewarding, I couldn't help but laugh at the jobsworth in the tie asking your son to stop filming.
Well done to you both for standing up to them. Your behavior should be applauded by all. I'd hate to think but I can guess how my kids would have reacted if they'd been in the same situation as those children around you when the police and stewards decided to step in.
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Police turned a blind eye at Wolves last week! The bog was full of smoke shame they didn't come in they would have seen young lads snorting coke
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To put it into perspective- The guy who I had ejected was escorted by 2 stewards to police and probably kicked out, so was probably treated better for incredibly offensive racist, homophobic, violent, threatening behaviour than a fellow fan who stupidly sparked up a fag. Bonkers!!!
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Over reaction. Yes! But how long has the smoking ban been in place?
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Over reaction. Yes! But how long has the smoking ban been in place?
Not as long as the no standing law.
Nobody is claiming he shouldn't have been smoking or that the stewards/police had the right to throw him out or arrest him. It was the manner in which they did it which is the issue.
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I saw this happening, and you could see that some of the stewards were very heavy handed. I was in the aisle trying to get out of the ground when the stewards and police were dragging the bloke away to the barrier between us and the Arse fans. I just wanted to get out of the ground but there was nowhere to go as it was so congested. One of the Stewards barged in to us, pushing me and my mate in to the people in front of us, including a couple of kids who could've been no older than 6. After apologising to the kid's dad for bumping in to his little uns I turned and told the stewards to "calm down, there's kids about". In response I was told to F*** off or you'll be next by one of them! This made quite a few people around me react, most of them trying to point out that there were kids about, but the one steward in particular became very aggressive and his language was appalling. I wish I'd just asked this guy for his name so I could report him, but I just told the bloke that he was an idiot and returned to trying to get out the ground. In fairness a much younger steward then came and apologised to us for his colleagues behaviour and said he'd calm him down. As it was the queue out of the ground started to move then and people started to leave but that was a situation that was unnecessary and could've escalated.
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Everybody who witnessed this, plus those pushed and abused by stewards should write to Arsenal about it. And if nothings done write on their messageboards, WSC etc.
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i'm generally sympathetic with the police, but that looks outrageous. there was a headline recently saying public safety was at risk because there are now 6000 less police in the force than last year - but there's always dozens of em about to deal with nonsense like this. Or to stand there pointing video cameras at a load of lads stood watching the game. And as for those orange jacketed, head phone wearing idiots - don't get me started. fair enough the lad shouldn't be smoking but why didn't one steward just tell him to put it out
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itbrvilla was right about the violent, threatening, racist homophobe he had thrown out - he was treated better than the errant smoker. After he was ejected he was invited to the station to fill in an application form.
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i'm generally sympathetic with the police, but that looks outrageous. there was a headline recently saying public safety was at risk because there are now 6000 less police in the force than last year - but there's always dozens of em about to deal with nonsense like this. Or to stand there pointing video cameras at a load of lads stood watching the game. And as for those orange jacketed, head phone wearing idiots - don't get me started. fair enough the lad shouldn't be smoking but why didn't one steward just tell him to put it out
The force gets paid by the club to lay on coppers for a footy match. So they need to justify the pay in some way otherwise the clubs might decide they don't need as many / them at all.
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I went to Deportiva La Coruna a few years back and got battered by a copper (along with other Villa fans) with his truncheon as he was trying to move the crowd forward and couldn't/wouldn't speak English and I couldn't understand his Spanish. That was an over reaction!
I have got a photo of someone with some bruises on the shoulder from that game.
We were standing at the back of that stand when they came steaming in for no reason at all. Mind you, it is expected in countries like that.
Madrid was the worse for over reactions. One chap suffered a fractured skull.
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My son and I were very angry last night. We have both calmed down now. I shall say nothing more about it but one final comment.
Suppose that lad they piled into and stood on and squashed and heaved every which way had been an epileptic, or had a heart condition or had recently had major surgery or was a chronic asthmatic or had osteoporosis or any one of a hundred conditions which made him vulnerable to physical violence?
They asked no questions, their punishment was instant. Wallop.
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Exactly. Well said Brian.
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My son and I were very angry last night. We have both calmed down now. I shall say nothing more about it but one final comment.
Suppose that lad they piled into and stood on and squashed and heaved every which way had been an epileptic, or had a heart condition or had recently had major surgery or was a chronic asthmatic or had osteoporosis or any one of a hundred conditions which made him vulnerable to physical violence?
They asked no questions, their punishment was instant. Wallop.
Then that's completely out of order. I hope you can see that a few of us were just trying to find out a bit more info last night Brian, and weren't siding with the stewards/police.
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My son and I were very angry last night. We have both calmed down now. I shall say nothing more about it but one final comment.
Suppose that lad they piled into and stood on and squashed and heaved every which way had been an epileptic, or had a heart condition or had recently had major surgery or was a chronic asthmatic or had osteoporosis or any one of a hundred conditions which made him vulnerable to physical violence?
They asked no questions, their punishment was instant. Wallop.
Then that's completely out of order. I hope you can see that a few of us were just trying to find out a bit more info last night Brian, and weren't siding with the stewards/police.
Then he'd be even more stupid for going to a football match, and even more for smoking. ;-)
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My son and I were very angry last night. We have both calmed down now. I shall say nothing more about it but one final comment.
Suppose that lad they piled into and stood on and squashed and heaved every which way had been an epileptic, or had a heart condition or had recently had major surgery or was a chronic asthmatic or had osteoporosis or any one of a hundred conditions which made him vulnerable to physical violence?
They asked no questions, their punishment was instant. Wallop.
Then that's completely out of order. I hope you can see that a few of us were just trying to find out a bit more info last night Brian, and weren't siding with the stewards/police.
Then he'd be even more stupid for going to a football match, and even more for smoking. ;-)
Nice one PMcG.
Back to the serious side, we saw a bloke get sat on by loads of Police at Southampton many years ago. He had done very little wrong but would have stood a better chance with a python.
You quite often get people gesturing to opposing fans and being obnoxious to all around who just get left alone, despite being in clear view of Police and stewards.
Thankfully, they don't appear at games that often.
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Brian, you have made some really clear and lucid points re what you saw on Sunday.
I really think you should send a letter to Arsenal about this, simply stating the facts and leaving aside your anger.It won't help the fella who was aggressed on Sunday but I would like to think Arsenal would take steps to ensure this doesn't happen again.
Good luck
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There is something about 'prone restraint' in today's Independent. It is used quite a lot by the Police, sometimes completely out of proportion to the reason for the arrest. I can only advise not getting into a situation where they need to do this to you as it seems quite a few die as a result of it.
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Yes Jon, they were talking about all the "restraint" related deaths on the radio this morning.
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i'm generally sympathetic with the police, but that looks outrageous. there was a headline recently saying public safety was at risk because there are now 6000 less police in the force than last year - but there's always dozens of em about to deal with nonsense like this. Or to stand there pointing video cameras at a load of lads stood watching the game. And as for those orange jacketed, head phone wearing idiots - don't get me started. fair enough the lad shouldn't be smoking but why didn't one steward just tell him to put it out
The force gets paid by the club to lay on coppers for a footy match. So they need to justify the pay in some way otherwise the clubs might decide they don't need as many / them at all.
It's the police that decide on the policing and numbers of police needed. They then in turn charge the clubs. The clubs have no say so whatsoever.
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i'm generally sympathetic with the police, but that looks outrageous. there was a headline recently saying public safety was at risk because there are now 6000 less police in the force than last year - but there's always dozens of em about to deal with nonsense like this. Or to stand there pointing video cameras at a load of lads stood watching the game. And as for those orange jacketed, head phone wearing idiots - don't get me started. fair enough the lad shouldn't be smoking but why didn't one steward just tell him to put it out
The force gets paid by the club to lay on coppers for a footy match. So they need to justify the pay in some way otherwise the clubs might decide they don't need as many / them at all.
It's the police that decide on the policing and numbers of police needed. They then in turn charge the clubs. The clubs have no say so whatsoever.
Not entirely true. Clubs pay for the police inside the ground, which is a matter of police 'advice'. Not that police advice is ever ignored.
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The only place I've ever seen people flouting the smoking ban is at football matches. It's like people thnk it's ok because of the circumstances.
Really - not at gigs (especially large gigs), or in clubs? I've see people thrown out for smoking from lots of different places, it's never taken that many people to do it though.
Generally I thought with the numbers travelling it went off pretty well and policing was pretty low key. Maybe they got bored.