Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: kipeye on January 18, 2012, 03:23:47 PM
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Surely I am not the only one who think Carlos is our best Centre half and equal to anyone else we have as a full back?
I cannot understand why we are not doing everything to make him stay and getting rid of Collins and possibly Dunne.
Anyone got the inside track on this-or is it simply that no-one rates him above the others in the squad?
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Why would he want to stay when he can hardly get a game, also when he doe's it's usually at right back.
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I'd get shot of pretty much any of our defenders before Carlos (with the exception of Clark) but it seems that successive managers haven't rated him so I don't think he'll be staying.
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Carlos Cuellar - Why ?
Add it to the previous questions of Luke Young - Why ? or Gary Cahill - Why ?
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AM was quoted a couple of weeks back saying he was open minded about keeping him. Trouble is, if he's not playing Cuellar won't be open minded about staying.
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Probably because the manager and board don't have the slightest idea of what they are doing. Aren't they about to let Delph go back to Leeds? I bet Leeds don't have to pay us 500k for the pleasure of loaning him for the rest of the season. On one hand they're talking about lowering costs then they borrow a past it striker who is costing an arm and a leg. Fucking clueless, all of them.
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To be fair Carlos was injured when AM first got here and then picked up another knock at Chelsea, just being back on the bench against Everton. So, have there been all that many games where he's been available and not picked this season?
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Where has it been written or confirmed that we are looking at selling him?
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Look at his attempt, or lack of it, to stop Routledge scoring the other week and you might get an idea. When the ball comes back off the post he just stands and watches.
I know that's just one incident but even Warnock at his worst would have tried to block it.
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if we look to get rid of any defender who makes an error we'd never have a defence. Carlos is a good player.
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if we look to get rid of any defender who makes an error we'd never have a defence. Carlos is a good player.
He's ok, nothing more. He's benefitting from "more games he misses better player he is" syndrome.
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If we don't keep him, it's probably because he's third choice centre-back and second/third choice right-back. Personally, I think our defence looks stronger for him being in it, but he's consistently been overlooked for a CB slot almost since the day he got here, so it wouldn't be a total surprise to see him go.
He'll be on a free in the summer and 30 years old, so he won't be short of offers, I'm sure.
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if we look to get rid of any defender who makes an error we'd never have a defence. Carlos is a good player.
He's ok, nothing more. He's benefitting from "more games he misses better player he is" syndrome.
Correct.
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if we look to get rid of any defender who makes an error we'd never have a defence. Carlos is a good player.
He's ok, nothing more. He's benefitting from "more games he misses better player he is" syndrome.
Correct.
How much did the messiah pay for him again?
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I thought we'd established were selling him because he runs like a girl???
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Where has it been written or confirmed that we are looking at selling him?
It seems to be more a case of letting his contract run out as no-one has mentioned extending it or persuading him to renew.
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King Carlos will be off along with Guzan Beye and Heskey which equates to around 140k a week in wages. Have I missed anyone? So are people saying that 2/3 signings for say 20mill (Downing money) but limited to say 40k a week each? This in my mind would be how the board are thinking. I actually believe Bent (who was brought a year ago today) was only bought because Randy knew Young and Downing were off.
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I'd keep him, he's a decent defender and a replacement will cost us money we don't have.
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I'd keep him, he's a decent defender and a replacement will cost us money we don't have.
I'd also play him ahead of Hutton (fitness permitting).
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I'd keep him, he's a decent defender and a replacement will cost us money we don't have.
I'd also play him ahead of Hutton (fitness permitting).
This.
and This.
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How much did the messiah pay for him again?
Wasn't it something like £7.8 million? I like Carlos, but if you're going to spend that on a defender, at least play him and in his proper position.
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Money. That's why he is going. Not having to pay up contracts etc. Dave W made a point when he said he takes sitting on the bench too lightly. I like the man but he is the same old average defender that we could replace for less money.
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Dave W made a point when he said he takes sitting on the bench too lightly
What should he be doing instead?
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Guess Cuellar is on a fair old wage for someone who isn't a regular first teamer too - we have a few of those.
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Never rated him as a fullback and always felt that he held us back from moving up to the next level when we were top 6. Although playing him at fullback strengthened the defence but you should be looking to improve the two central players not have to supplement them with a third. Chris Smith was right in his point about the goal conceded against Swansea. People blamed Guzan for his poor distribution but the Swansea player that picked the ball up just waltzed past Cuellar.
At centre of defence I do not think he is good enough in the air to replace Dunne or Collins. However, if he played alongside a dominant central defender e.g. Samba I think it would be a good player.
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How many full and part time managers have believed that he is not good enough to start at centre back? His technique on the ball doesn't allow him to play in the full back role in modern football.
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When Cuellar played we had thread stating he couldn't pass water and wasn't great. A season or so later with barely no playing time he is now the missing link despite MON, KMc, GH, GMc and now AMc all opting for others in his position. Funny old gam isn' it?
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When Cuellar played we had thread stating he couldn't pass water and wasn't great. A season or so later with barely no playing time he is now the missing link despite MON, KMc, GH, GMc and now AMc all opting for others in his position. Funny old gam isn' it?
It's an unbreakable rule of football supporting that every struggling team has a player not getting picked who would turn them into worldbeaters if he could only get a game.
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Carlos Cuellar - Why ?
Add it to the previous questions of Luke Young - Why ? or Gary Cahill - Why ?
Luke wanted to go back to London.
Gary wanted 1st team football. MO'N had just bought in experienced centre backs in Dunne and Collins so his chances were limited.
Personally I'd have given Cahill and Rigewell a crack, they'd come through the system together and had a great understanding.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but, I think maybe MO'N should have gone for a transitional season and given some of these lads a go.
But, maybe he realised that many of the fans wouldn't accept that!!
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Carlos Cuellar - Why ?
Add it to the previous questions of Luke Young - Why ? or Gary Cahill - Why ?
Gary wanted 1st team football. MO'N had just bought in experienced centre backs in Dunne and Collins so his chances were limited.
Knight and Davies
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Carlos Cuellar - Why ?
Add it to the previous questions of Luke Young - Why ? or Gary Cahill - Why ?
Gary wanted 1st team football. MO'N had just bought in experienced centre backs in Dunne and Collins so his chances were limited.
Knight and Davies
Definitive ( as usual).
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We also had Laursen and Mellberg at the time.
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We also had Laursen and Mellberg at the time.
Blimey, those were the days.
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Cahill would have learned a lot from Laursen. Instead we wasted the best part of £13-£14m on Davies and Knight. And there's the money we had to spend to replace Davies and Knight...
Christ, how we pissed away the best opportunity to make an impression we may ever have in my lifetime.
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The Bolton Defender wasn't ready for regular 1st team football in a top 6 side when he left. Laursen and Davies were doing great for us at that time, but when Laursen got injured Cuellar and Davies didn't click as a partnership. That could have been his chance to establish himself at Villa, but he didn't want to wait.
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There's got to be a reason why none of O'Neill, McDonald, Houllier or McLeish has given Cuellar a run at centre back....
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He is injury prone, but given a run at CB (which he never really has had), he'll be improvement on Collins - IMO he's a much better player. His stint at full-back never really did him justice.
That said, if only we could find another gem like Laursen....
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I'd have him ahead of both Collins and Hutton.
He may not be the greatest passer in the world but he most certainly knows how to defend.
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Carlos Cuellar - Why ?
Add it to the previous questions of Luke Young - Why ? or Gary Cahill - Why ?
Gary wanted 1st team football. MO'N had just bought in experienced centre backs in Dunne and Collins so his chances were limited.
Knight and Davies
Blimey, I forgot about those.
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That's the £15mil combination of Knmight & Davies.
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I would have Cuellar in the team instead of Collins he would do a better job for us than Collins.
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Instead we wasted the best part of £13-£14m on Davies and Knight.
We didn't waste any money on Knight. We got a good bit of service out of him and then made a profit on him.
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Instead we wasted the best part of £13-£14m on Davies and Knight.
We didn't waste any money on Knight. We got a good bit of service out of him and then made a profit on him.
True - a small profit on Knight. God knows how much we lost on Davies though - was the fee from Bloose ever disclosed?
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Didn't he get the well deserved last-minute equaliser in the 2-2 draw with Arsenal at VP a few seasons ago?
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Yup
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You cant compare Cuellar with Knight we havent had a proper consistent centre half from the day Cahill was sold. I would say that was the day I fell out of love with Martin No'Deal.
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There's got to be a reason why none of O'Neill, McDonald, Houllier or McLeish has given Cuellar a run at centre back....
Maybe it's the same incriminating photo's that keep getting Heskey a run?
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You cant compare Cuellar with Knight we havent had a proper consistent centre half from the day Cahill was sold. I would say that was the day I fell out of love with Martin No'Deal.
He wasn't a 'proper consistent centre half' himself when he was sold.
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Maybe we will get to judge everything in hindsight as usual but I will say this, my own view is based on what I have seen of Carlos when he has played and not as some are suggesting rating him because he hasn't played. You don't have to agree ( I ain't naming) but don't put a twist on the post and words in my mouth-thanks.
My view is he is better than any of the other regular back four (not including Clarke or Herd here) and looks to have untapped potential-the others are never going to improve.
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Granted he wasnt consistent at 20. It was evident though that he would play for England from a young age. No'Deal even tried him at right back. You can argue all day long about Villa but its criminal that we have wasted millions on centre halfs from Knight to Davies to Dunne to Collins to Cuellar when Cahill and Clark came through the ranks and cost feck all. They would compliment each other perfectly.
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Granted he wasnt consistent at 20. It was evident though that he would play for England from a young age. No'Deal even tried him at right back. You can argue all day long about Villa but its criminal that we have wasted millions on centre halfs from Knight to Davies to Dunne to Collins to Cuellar when Cahill and Clark came through the ranks and cost feck all. They would compliment each other perfectly.
agree with that Hoppo.
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Clark isn't really revelant to the point as he's a few years after him and is still here, and playing, so our policy of buying CBs hasn't hurt him. Dunne & Collins were purchased after he left to replace Laursen, so again not directly relevant.
What is is the purchases of Knight and Davies, who directly held him back. I'd say only one was needed, but the manager wanted some experienced cover, when the player then decided he wouldn't wait, so moved on.
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Carlos is and always has been just about ok, nothing special. I hated it when he played at RB under O'Neill although I'd rather have him at RB than Hutton, but only because Hutton is mostly abysmal and thick with it. Reasonable but not exceptional CB. Much like Collins, gets drawn out of position too much and beaten in the air a little too much as well. I think it's fair to say that he has some of the worst distribution skills in the premier, or any other league. It literally could end up anywhere, except, it seems, where he was aiming it. Surely MON didn't spend as much as 7.8 million on him? Couple that with 8m on Warnock and fuck me we were taken to the fackin cleaners in a big way.
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Carlos is and always has been just about ok, nothing special. I hated it when he played at RB under O'Neill although I'd rather have him at RB than Hutton, but only because Hutton is mostly abysmal and thick with it. Reasonable but not exceptional CB. Much like Collins, gets drawn out of position too much and beaten in the air a little too much as well. I think it's fair to say that he has some of the worst distribution skills in the premier, or any other league. It literally could end up anywhere, except, it seems, where he was aiming it. Surely MON didn't spend as much as 7.8 million on him? Couple that with 8m on Warnock and fuck me we were taken to the fackin cleaners in a big way.
Yep, agree with all of that.
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Where has it been written or confirmed that we are looking at selling him?
Contract up in the summer so will probably leave on a free.
To me he's a much better centre half than James Collins, we saw this against Arsenal.
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Gary Cahill to Chelsea for £7m.
Do we get any % of that transfer fee?
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Gary Cahill to Chelsea for £7m.
Do we get any % of that transfer fee?
We're probably still paying a proportion of his wages.
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Gary Cahill to Chelsea for £7m.
Do we get any % of that transfer fee?
Apparently it's 15% of any profit.
So about £300k.
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You cant compare Cuellar with Knight we havent had a proper consistent centre half from the day Cahill was sold. I would say that was the day I fell out of love with Martin No'Deal.
Cahill is a good footballer but average defender.
The defender we've never replaced was Martin Laursen.
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Carlos has never had a long enough run in central defence to determine his true worth. I would say he probably equal at least to Dunne but with Collins distrubution.
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Cahill had Laursen and Mellberg in his way and didn't want to stay as a reserve, £5mill was ok at the time. With hindsight it would have been nice if he had stayed, but I don't think currently he is any better than Dunne, Mellberg, never mind Laursenpre retirement. Clark is a bit like Cahill/Phil Jone, good footballer but with a bit to leanr playing cenre half, he will eventually become a top centre half imo though. Cuellar imo is marginally better than Collins so is unfortunate not to get more game time, but hey ho, i dont lose any sleep over it as I think there is very little between them.
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Carlos has never had a long enough run in central defence to determine his true worth. I would say he probably equal at least to Dunne but with Collins distrubution.
That's the thing, Carlos never plays centre half unless Collins is injured.
I can't understand why in the last 2 years, there's never been an occasion where Carlos and Dunne have played 10 straight games together with Collins firmly glued to the bench, it's always the other way round which completely baffles me.