Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dalians umbrella on January 16, 2012, 08:16:48 PM
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I thought that one of the main reasons we played so well at Chelsea, aside from having Ciaran Clark in midfield, was the creativity and interplay between Ireland, Albrighton and N'Zogbia. All seemed to be playing in their best positions - Albrighton and N'Zogbia as wingers and Ireland behind a lone striker and in front of two midfielders who can tackle. Also, all were previously having stinkers of seasons up until recently, but had benefitted from McCleish perservering with them.
Although I completely sympathise with McLeish feeling that he had to bring Bent back into the team once he recovered from injury, this has been achieved by dropping first Albrighton, and then N'Zogbia, and playing either Ireland or Gabby on the wing. This seems to have conincided with the downturn in form after things seemed to be getting better around christmas.
I know Gabby's season highlights have all involved him cutting in from wide left but I don't think he has the creativity we need in a winger. Even more so, Stephen Ireland is rendered completely ineffective when out wide. I was amazed McCleish even started him out there against Everton after it didn't work against Bristol.
Seeing as McCleish is likely to be blamed for everything from the economic downturn to the recent gales, I can understand his reluctance to drop either Bent or Gabby, as either would probably become quickly unhappy and want a move away. But I think we can only play with one of them in the team. Up until the Everton game, I would have been perfectly happy for him to drop, and even sell, Darren Bent as his contribution to the team has been non-existent. However, terrible passing aside, he did actually start to run around on Saturday, receive and lay the ball off, as well as the small matter of scoring.
I am worried that the signing of Robbie Keane is going to make this situation even worse with McCleish trying to now accommodate 3 strikers into a system which needs only one. The only thing worse than playing Ireland on the wing is playing him as part of a midfield two, where we are quickly over-run (see Newcastle away last season) and this is what happened when Keane was brought on as sub on Saturday. I would really like McCleish to be brave and start the next game with just one of Bent, Gabby or Keane (preferably Bent) and see what happens.
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Not sure he bought Keane to play as a striker, Probably more to cover Ivanhoe. It's pretty clear AM still hasn't found a midfield combination that can be creative and protect the duffers in defence and with Jenas kaput and no money available i'm guessing Keane is his latest throw of the dice. Short term fix if it works but thats the market AM is dealing in now. I think if we're in a similar league position when he leaves as we are now, he'll be happy.
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I think this is an interesting discussion and, as I said eearlier, what would have happened if Bent had not scored that goal againt Everton when he did? What would McLeish's move have been then? Keane had to come on. Who would have gone off. I know it is 'what if' but it is proving difficult to get the best 11 on the field, even though we have had most permutation out of the squad outside the back four.
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As I've said in previous posts, in my opinion, Villa's strongest team at present is...
Given
Hutton Collins Dunne Warnock
Albrighton Clark Ireland Petrov N Zog
Agbonlahor
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The team that played at Chelsea worked because of all the aspects of the team working.
If we had started with Bent instead of Gabby I think the result would have been different, I also think that if we had started with Gabby on the wing it would have been different.
We cannot afford to accommodate players, I would try one more time this week but with N'Zogbia in for Marc.
If that doesn't work then we have to pick one of Bent/Gabby to play up top.
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I would be loathe to drop Gabby but I don't have to pick the team.
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Excellent first post.
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As I've said in previous posts, in my opinion, Villa's strongest team at present is...
Given
Hutton Collins Dunne Warnock
Albrighton Clark Ireland Petrov N Zog
Agbonlahor
My only adjustment would have to be Cuellar for Collins. I'd say this is our most effective lineup, even if it doesn't necessarily mean it contains the best individuals.
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As I've said in previous posts, in my opinion, Villa's strongest team at present is...
Given
Hutton Collins Dunne Warnock
Albrighton Clark Ireland Petrov N Zog
Agbonlahor
I agree except for the back 4
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Christ, seeing those jokers at full-back in our ''strongest XI'' is enough to make you weep.
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Christ, seeing those jokers at full-back in our ''strongest XI'' is enough to make you weep.
you forgot to mention Collins
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I would drop Gabby. I am in the minority, and he has been great this season, but he has dropped off in terms of goals recently, and simply does not move in the box when the lone front man, Bent is much more adept at finding space and much more likely to score for me.
It is an issue, but then the manager is paid to make it work. A convenient injury to either is the get out clause, but for me Bent is the better player to score goals.
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I would drop Gabby. I am in the minority, and he has been great this season, but he has dropped off in terms of goals recently, and simply does not move in the box when the lone front man, Bent is much more adept at finding space and much more likely to score for me.
It is an issue, but then the manager is paid to make it work. A convenient injury to either is the get out clause, but for me Bent is the better player to score goals.
that is the conundrum, play Gabby who will add more to the team or play Bent who adds nothing to the team except is more likely to score, on the other hand I would allways play Gabby ahead of Alrighton or Nzogbia
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I would drop Gabby. I am in the minority, and he has been great this season, but he has dropped off in terms of goals recently, and simply does not move in the box when the lone front man, Bent is much more adept at finding space and much more likely to score for me.
It is an issue, but then the manager is paid to make it work. A convenient injury to either is the get out clause, but for me Bent is the better player to score goals.
Have to agree about gabby. I'd also stick keane just behind bent to thread balls on the ground through the centre to him which is what he likes
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Christ, seeing those jokers at full-back in our ''strongest XI'' is enough to make you weep.
We are quite strong elsewhere though. Many teams would like the problem of having to choose which striker to drop, bent or Gabby.
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I think it's a case of giving the players more time together to develop understanding. I'd put N'Zogbia back in for Albrighton but otherwise persevere with the line up from Saturday. I do understand the argument but dropping one of your leading goal scorers in a side that doesn't get many is a risky decision.
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I seem to watch different games to some. When ever I see Bent play I think he does track back. He does come deep and defend. He isn't as effective at it as say Gabby is but some seem to make out that he stands on the half way line arms folded waiting for the ball to be played for him to score a goal.
When ever I've watched him, Bent does work with he team. But my stance is if he's dropping too deep or going out wide to pick up the ball then he is out of position for when the ball comes back inside. He can't be in the middle to receive the ball and put it in the back of the net.
The midfield needs to be stronger so Bent can be more effective.
Gabby does contribute a lot so i would be reluctant to drop him. How many assists does he have this season? I'd drop Albrighton and put gabby out wide. Harsh on marc I know but gabby has been more effective out wide this season
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Agree with almost everything the FP says, except the bit about getting shot of Bent up to the Everton game.
I was thinking the same yesterday when reading the "Big Managerial Decisions" thread. For me it's a key area where McLeish has bottled the big decision. It's got to be either Bent or Gabby (or Keane I suppose) but he seems to think he can't drop Bent because he's the record signing and he'd be off like a shot if he did, and he can't drop Gabby as it would upset the fans. So he makes the classic managerial mistake of disrupting the whole team to try and shoehorn them both in. N'Zogbia's poor form has largely been down to not being played in his natural and best position, wide left. When he's played there, he's looked much better. Ireland is only effective in the hole behind the striker, it's a complete waste of time trying to fit him in anywhere else. Up front, for me it has to be Bent, because quite simply, if you feed him enough chances he'll get you 20 goals a season. Gabby, for all his effort and enthusiasm, won't. It's the old one about the simple trick of playing players in their best positions and having the balls to leave players, any player, out. The best managers do it, the others don't.
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A lots been said about the Chelsea game and how we wouldn't have won it had Bent started, plus how much better we played against Arsenal, again without Bent. However, is that the real reason or was it because the team behind Gabby had more balance to it? We've only seen Bent missing this season due to injury, so only seen how we shape up with Gabby upfront and Bent not playing, as the one game Gabby missed through suspension Bent was out also. So we don't actually know if Gabby up top was the difference as opposed to the better balance in midfield with Gabby not playing wide.
Two sitters in Clark & Petrov behind an advanced three of N'Zog, Ireland and Super Marc is the best midfield for us, but I don't think we lose too much in general play by having Bent upfront instead of Gabby, and obviosuly gain in terms of goal threat, so the reluctant decision for me is to drop Gabby.
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I'm quite happy to play Gabby wide. He's got more assists for us than anyone else this season. He's always a threat and actually, he's been quite effective out wide.
Albrighton is just becoming a bit quiet again. N'Zogbia did okay for a run but nothing more, so I'd play Gabby wide left over either of them.
But certainly, I don't like playing two up front and four in midfield. We need a three man midfield.
We'll create more and Bent will bang them in. I don't think we're in a position to drop Bent or Gabby right now.
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What people forget about the Chelsea game is that we scored the second and third when Bent was on the pitch.
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Midnite I agree on the work bent does. It is a myth that he does not work hard in games. There were stats to show how far he had run in the first half was the sixth furthest on the field on Saturday. Just easy to use the excuse he doesn't work hard to drop him for Gabby who is great, but will never carry the goal threat of bent.
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It's a real symptom of this board that any weakness seen in a player gets talked up out of all proportion until it's a major flaw.
Does Bent add as much to general play as Gabby? No, but then that doesn't mean he's useless in that regard.
Other myths we've managed to convince ourselves of over the years include:-
Petrov is knackered after 60 minutes
NRC can't pass
Cuellar is an awful right back
Collins and Dunne 'hoof' everytime they see a football
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Bent does do a lot of work. His movement is excellent, but most of his work is off the ball. This is what's so annoying about the team this season, is the fact we're not getting the ball to him enough. The amount we actually create in some games is truly pathetic. Still, despite having little service, he's still managed 7 goals.
We can't defend to save our lives. In part because we invite too much pressure by sitting back. I just wish we'd be a bit gung ho and push on. We've got decent attacking players, and the best form of defence is to attack. We have a predator in Bent and we have Gabby. We should be outscoring most of the teams below the top 6 on a game to game basis, especially at home. McLeish should just give up the ghost on trying to get clean sheets. It's not gonna happen. Concentrate on the attacking third.
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One thing I know. Playing Ireland on the wing is stupid.
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Did you watch the game on Saturday, Tom? It was precisely because were gung-ho and going all out for a second that we got hit with a sucker punch for the equaliser.
Our defence isn't as bad as is painted, we're in the mid range for goals conceded for the league. We give away soft goals but we also defend well at times, as with every other aspect of the team the issue is inconsistency.
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Did you watch the game on Saturday, Tom? It was precisely because were gung-ho and going all out for a second that we got hit with a sucker punch for the equaliser.
Our defence isn't as bad as is painted, we're in the mid range for goals conceded for the league. We give away soft goals but we also defend well at times, as with every other aspect of the team the issue is inconsistency.
I'd agree with this. We can play some nice stuff at times, but are unable to keep it going for long enough to force more mistakes from the opposition. And our defensive frailties don't seem to be down to any problem with the way the team is set up, but more because of individual mistakes. Not sure how the manager can change that, but I think confidence is the key factor.
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What people forget about the Chelsea game is that we scored the second and third when Bent was on the pitch.
A very valid point. Also overlooked by some is the fact that Gabby was dreadful up on his own against Arsenal, both in terms of general contribution and hold up play, and in failing to get on the end of the fair amount of crosses that were being pinged into the box. Although to be fair I heard Gabby was much better against Chelsea, and gave their defenders a tough time, but I missed the first half.
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I'd stick with both of them up top,Gab seems to naturally pull out wide on the left,he did it a lot when he played with Carew. As others have said Bent is more natural at getting in goal scoring positions,throw in Ireland behind them and hopefully they can build an understanding.
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I'd stick with both of them up top,Gab seems to naturally pull out wide on the left,he did it a lot when he played with Carew. As others have said Bent is more natural at getting in goal scoring positions,throw in Ireland behind them and hopefully they can build an understanding.
That leaves us too weak in the middle as Ireland is best in a more advanced position and other than Petrov our midfield is not good enough. It is the whole conundrum of the thread.
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Id play a midfield diamond,with Clark at the bottom,Ireland at the top,with Stan on the right,Nzogbia on the left,a narrow midfield. To get the best out the forwards they need to be more advanced,especially Gab.
The problem is though we need decent attacking full backs,which we don't have.
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Both the full backs try to attack but they're not very good at it.
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That leaves out Albrighton, who up until Everton was our 2nd best player on form behind Ireland. The diamond worked for us against Wigan, but Petrov played at the bottom and I think that's the only place he fits in that formation. I'd also have doubts about N'Zogbia having the discipline for it.
Should we try it, I'd go with your team and replace Petrov and N'Zog with Super Marc and Bannan. Or maybe Gardner the Younger?
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Yeah,Gardners not a bad idea. I get a feeling that Wee Barry won't get enough game time and will fall further down the pecking order.
I really wish we'd invest in some top draw full backs,as they're really important in how teams attack nowadays.
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Just because we may go 442 does not mean we are playing two wingers, Bremner, Houghton etc were not wingers but played predominantly wide midfield. Just because Ireland starts from the left doesn't mean he is playing as a left winger, he can cut in from that flank and help dictate play and whilst Gabby starts up front he naturally peels over to the left quite a lot during any game, so I think that's a combination that could work with neither of them necessarilly playing out of position on the wing, but both rotating between wide roles and supporting Bent during the game. It also means the central two have more cover in the form of Ireland thank if we were playing two touchline hugging wingers. Bent, Gabby, N'Zogbia and Ireland playing to the height of their abilities should be trouble for any defence and in Bannan, Albrighton, Keane and Gardner we have some very good players waiting to force their way into the team.
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That leaves out Albrighton, who up until Everton was our 2nd best player on form behind Ireland. The diamond worked for us against Wigan, but Petrov played at the bottom and I think that's the only place he fits in that formation. I'd also have doubts about N'Zogbia having the discipline for it.
Should we try it, I'd go with your team and replace Petrov and N'Zog with Super Marc and Bannan
That would see our front six consist of two strikers, two trequartistas one winger and one central defender, while offering no protection for two of the most temperamental full-backs in the league.
It would be tactically suicidal.
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We've seen our best formation a few times already. It's two central midfield players - currently Petrov and Clark - with three players ahead of them; pick two from Albrighton, N'Zog and Gabby for the wide roles, and one (currently Ireland) in the middle (Bannan, and also perhaps Keane) compete for that spot. Bent as the central striker.
That's probably our best model. Gabby can play the striker role if Bent is injured/off form.
For certain games, we could even pair Ireland with Clark in central midfield, use Keane just behind Bent.
I'd be looking at introducing Lichaj and Stevens to the full back roles at some point; Herd also a possibility at right-back.
In the summer, we look to phase Petrov out and bring in a new midfielder to play in there.
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Simple Try this.
-------------------Given,
Cuellar ----Collins, ---- Dunne,
----------Petrov -----Clark
Albrighton ----Ireland -----Keane
-------Agbonlahor---- Bent
Clark can be attacking defender which he can be use to switch 4-1-3-2 or 3-2-3-2 formation when needed. But will Alex be brave enough to try this system.
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Simple Try this.
-------------------Given,
Cuellar ----Collins, ---- Dunne,
----------Petrov -----Clark
Albrighton ----Ireland -----Keane
-------Agbonlahor---- Bent
Clark can be attacking defender which he can be use to switch 4-1-3-2 or 3-2-3-2 formation when needed. But will Alex be brave enough to try this system.
I very much hope not. We'd be ripped to shreds.
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what we have in midfield and attack is options, we have 2 decent goalkeepers. It is the back 4 that is the problem and needs replacing.
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I think Gabby will start at Arsenal but he'll be on the bench for the next home game.
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Simple Try this.
-------------------Given,
Cuellar ----Collins, ---- Dunne,
----------Petrov -----Clark
Albrighton ----Ireland -----Keane
-------Agbonlahor---- Bent
Clark can be attacking defender which he can be use to switch 4-1-3-2 or 3-2-3-2 formation when needed. But will Alex be brave enough to try this system.
I've seen some odd teams and formations on here but this one takes the biscuit!!