Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: kippaxvilla2 on December 19, 2011, 03:28:28 PM
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A change of manager. A manager is completely out of his depth. A Scottish Manager.
A poor squad.
Apathy in the crowd.
Falling attendances.
Players looking disinterested.
A Clubwide feeling of depression.
A Chairman getting heat from fans.
I have exactly the same feeling as I had after Clive Allen bagged a hat trick against us on the first day of the season at Villa Park. By the way, Blues went down the same season as us.
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They went down the year before.
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Blues went down with WBA, then when Villa went it was the first time Birmingham didn't have representation in the top division.ahh such good memories!
Personally I think there are similarities with that 87, especially the team not appearing to have shape or a method of playing. I don't subscribe to there being worse teams I the division either-we've turned into Newcastle United of a couple of years back.
We are a badly run club in decline. I'm starting see good old Doug with rose tinted specs.
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Docherty , Mcneill and mcleish -relegation maybe ?
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Blues went down with WBA, then when Villa went it was the first time Birmingham didn't have representation in the top division.ahh such good memories!
Personally I think there are similarities with that 87, especially the team not appearing to have shape or a method of playing. I don't subscribe to there being worse teams I the division either-we've turned into Newcastle United of a couple of years back.
We are a badly run club in decline. I'm starting see good old Doug with rose tinted specs.
Agree with that. We appear to be a shambles at every level apart from the youth set up. So many things stink at the moment, that I have no idea of what needs to change for the decline to be halted and reversed. The 'there are loads of worse teams' arguemnt means nothing at the moment, lets se how many worse teams there are at the end of the season. Everyone else apart from Bolton appear to at least have fight in the the team and appear to actually care. We on the other had do not and this is the big worry for me.
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no, there are 10 other teams that are loads worse than us!
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A change of manager. A manager is completely out of his depth. A Scottish Manager.
A poor squad.
Apathy in the crowd.
Falling attendances.
Players looking disinterested.
A Clubwide feeling of depression.
A Chairman getting heat from fans.
I have exactly the same feeling as I had after Clive Allen bagged a hat trick against us on the first day of the season at Villa Park. By the way, Blues went down the same season as us.
Whilst I'll admit that our 'recent' experience of having a Scottish manager isn't good. I give you George Ramsay manager from 1884-1926. His teams won 6 FA Cups and 6 League Championships and is therefore our most successful manager ever.
So AM being Scottish doesn't come into the equation.
By the way there isn't much else in your post to argue with. :)
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Could someone better than me post the 86 squad, so we can compare the teams
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They went down the year before.
Was going to say that then just had it in my mind they went with us - ah well even more similarities.
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http://www.statto.com/football/teams/aston-villa/1986-1987
http://www.astonvilla-mad.co.uk/footydb/loadtmrs.asp?ssnno=116&teamno=31
Final table and then the results from that season. Thank God for Coventry and a particular low light was the Dell on a freezing cold March day from memory.
The team was something like
Kevin Poole
Bernie Gallagher
Tony Dorigo
Allan Evans (although he may have gone not sure)
Paul Elliott
Hodge until the twat departed in December to Spuds.
Paul Birch
Paul Kerr
Garry Thompson
Waspish Warren Aspinall
Steve Hunt?
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I understand the sentiments of the post but thought it timely to mention that there have been a great deal of comments on here, referring to the manager, that might be percived as being a bit racist. I am not including the OP but those who have to call McLeish a Scottish xxxx or whatever.
We have had some fine Scottish people at the club and I am surprised that the site rules do not cover such situations.
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The team was something like
Kevin Poole
Bernie Gallagher
Tony Dorigo
Allan Evans (although he may have gone not sure)
Paul Elliott
Hodge until the twat departed in December to Spuds.
Paul Birch
Paul Kerr
Garry Thompson
Waspish Warren Aspinall
Steve Hunt?
Stainrod, Gary Williams, Mark Walters, Tony Daley, Spink, Neale Cooper/Andy Blair never played, Martin Keown. Match Weekly tipped us for Champions that year!Steve McMahon did a Stewart Downing at the start
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Went to our head office near Manchester this morning and was chatting to a few of the guys. They asked who I support and when I said Villa they all drew deep breaths and sympathised with me. A few years ago I would have been shown some respect but at the moment it's pity.
To a man they all said what a poor appointment Mcleish has beeen and nobody understands why he was given the job. Is it only our Chairman who has ever thought he was the right man for the job?
There's a stench of defeat at VP at the moment, and I'm afraid that if it's not reversed sooner rather than later it will be a repeat of 86-67. We aren't too good to go down.
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those were the days and lets not forget the Henson Kit
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I'm sure by the end of that season we had Dean Glover, Phil Robinson and Darren Bradley playing in the midfield.
That year we went down we really were rubbish and the players in the side were simple not good enough to compete in that division. Come christmas it was pretty inevitable that relegation would be our fate.
At the moment I see good enough players but they are aboard a rudderless ship.
People talk about us being too good to go down and that there are worse team in the division. I dare say if you ask people to name 4 worst teams then a fair few would give the names of Norwich Blackburn Swansea Wigan.
I'd say
I've seen Norwich have a go at Liverpool away and earn a point
I've seen Blackburn with all their off field problems have a go at Arsenal and win
I've seen Swansea have a go at Man U and narrowly lose
I've seen Wigan have a go at Chelsea and earn a very creditable draw
And I've seen Villa on at least 3 occassion this season roll over and have our bellies tickled
On the evidence provided on the pitch there is no way I'd say we are to good to go down
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I went to the Sheff Wed relegation game with Stuart Ritchie (who I think had the shortest Villa career ever), he was more concerned with the Tottenham result then his team getting relegated.Phil Robinson scored a great goal in the last home game before heading down the leagues.My Nan used to look after some players, that's what I remember it so well.
I hope something happens this year to avoid a repeat, but I wouldn't be surprised if we go down
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we wont go down but we wont be mid table either
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Well we certainly have the look of a relegation side to me, and another poor sign was players like Dunne, N'Zogbia and Petrov throwing their hands in the air in desperation at their own team mates,when they came out in the second half Dunne, Collins and Warnock were all chuntering to themselves moaning at all the other players.
What gets me is the total lack of team spirit and leadership on the pitch, I can accept we are not good enough but I won't accept that >:(
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I understand the sentiments of the post but thought it timely to mention that there have been a great deal of comments on here, referring to the manager, that might be percived as being a bit racist. I am not including the OP but those who have to call McLeish a Scottish xxxx or whatever.
We have had some fine Scottish people at the club and I am surprised that the site rules do not cover such situations.
Don't be so absurd. The last manager to take us down was Scottish, I am trying to draw some comparisons as to the state of the current predicament and the fact that the club is in fact managed by a Scotsman currently. Nothing more, nothing less.
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I had us at 25/1 at the start of the season to go down. Anyone want to buy the bet off me?
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I understand the sentiments of the post but thought it timely to mention that there have been a great deal of comments on here, referring to the manager, that might be percived as being a bit racist. I am not including the OP but those who have to call
McLeish a Scottish xxxx or whatever.
We have had some fine Scottish people at the club and I am surprised that the site
rules do not cover such situations.
Don't be so absurd. The last manager to take us down was Scottish, I am trying to draw some comparisons as to the state of the current predicament and the fact
that the club is in fact managed by a Scotsman currently. Nothing more, nothing less.
I made it quite clear that my comment was not aimed at the original post.
Maybe I put it on the wrong thread. There have been some statements that are out of order. It was time someone said something. There is no need to put things in the way they have been put. Its a pity the moderators don't see it that way or have the decency to say something. Statements like 'ginger Scottish twat' are out of order.
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Docherty , Mcneill and mcleish -relegation maybe ?
Wihout Tommy Docherty where would we have been today?
His first season woke Villa up from the doldrums. Admittedly it went wrong but it still got people interested in the club again, in no small way.
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John, take a break. You may have seen an awful lot more shite than most of us, but its best to bow out now and allow us youngers a moan. I am not slating you, or your wish to educate wastrels. But what we are seeing is shite and people have a right to moan.
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Whilst I'll admit that our 'recent' experience of having a Scottish manager isn't good. I give you George Ramsay manager from 1884-1926. His teams won 6 FA Cups and 6 League Championships and is therefore our most successful manager ever.
So AM being Scottish doesn't come into the equation.
By the way there isn't much else in your post to argue with. :)
Ramsey wasn't the manager and the teams were selected by the directors.
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John, take a break. You may have seen an awful lot more shite than most of us, but its best to bow out now and allow us youngers a moan. I am not slating you, or your wish to educate wastrels. But what we are seeing is shite and people have a right to moan.
This is so typical of this board lately. Anyone trying to offer up an alternative viewpoint is told not to bother, as though all you want is everyone agreeing with a party line. Why?
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John, take a break. You may have seen an awful lot more shite than most of us, but its best to bow out now and allow us youngers a moan. I am not slating you, or your wish to educate wastrels. But what we are seeing is shite and people have a right to moan.
Agreed. I just think the racist abuse is uncalled for. I will let you carry on.
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In short, no. We have lost to Liverpool many times at home over the years (get used to it), even under some of our more gung-ho and less Scottish managers. I did see us beat them 5-1 once (all goals by half time), but I was quite young and may well have dreamt it.
1986/87 was a real low point, in part because it was not many seasons after an amazing high.
We have a long way to go before it's as bad as that.
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Wihout Tommy Docherty where would we have been today?
His first season woke Villa up from the doldrums. Admittedly it went wrong but it still got people interested in the club again, in no small way.
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Good to see someone appreciating Docherty. He did far more for the club than he is ever given credit for.
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Doc-Doc-Docherty, who the fuckin' hell is he?
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John, take a break. You may have seen an awful lot more shite than most of us, but its best to bow out now and allow us youngers a moan. I am not slating you, or your wish to educate wastrels. But what we are seeing is shite and people have a right to moan.
Agreed. I just think the racist abuse is uncalled for. I will let you carry on.
Where is this racist abuse? Rather than have a go at the mods for something they haven't seen, why don't you try being helpful and drop a PM pointing it out?
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Steve McMahon did a Stewart Downing at the start
Nah! That was the season before. During early 1985-86. Missed a penalty at home to QPR in his last game, I think. We lost 2-1.
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John, take a break. You may have seen an awful lot more shite than most of us, but its best to bow out now and allow us youngers a moan. I am not slating you, or your wish to educate wastrels. But what we are seeing is shite and people have a right to moan.
Agreed. I just think the racist abuse is uncalled for. I will let you carry on.
Where is this racist abuse? Rather than have a go at the mods for something they haven't seen, why don't you try being helpful and drop a PM pointing it out?
I'll have a look in the morning Mr.Wenger.
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Whilst I'll admit that our 'recent' experience of having a Scottish manager isn't good. I give you George Ramsay manager from 1884-1926. His teams won 6 FA Cups and 6 League Championships and is therefore our most successful manager ever.
So AM being Scottish doesn't come into the equation.
By the way there isn't much else in your post to argue with. :)
Ramsey wasn't the manager and the teams were selected by the directors.
Really?
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This 'Ramsay the manager' story is a recent invention. He was secretary and the team was picked by the directors, with input from the first team trainer and captain. Our first manager was a Scot, Jimmy McMullan, in 1934. He, er, got us relegated.
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Wihout Tommy Docherty where would we have been today?
His first season woke Villa up from the doldrums. Admittedly it went wrong but it still got people interested in the club again, in no small way.
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Good to see someone appreciating Docherty. He did far more for the club than he is ever given credit for.
Most assuredly: he galvanised the club, particularly the fans, and that surge of energy and optimism kept us going. As many posters have mentioned before, after the Doc, we always thought we would get back to the top division even if we had to go down to the 3rd on the way.
It seems almost surreal to remember that we once triumphantly sang:
Division Two
Welcomes you
Aston Villa
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So who is going to be our Graham Taylor MkII?
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Docherty , Mcneill and mcleish -relegation maybe ?
Wihout Tommy Docherty where would we have been today?
His first season woke Villa up from the doldrums. Admittedly it went wrong but it still got people interested in the club again, in no small way.
Agree 100% about The Doc. His first 6 months at the club were absolutely vital. Crowds were down to 13,000 and within weeks we had over 40,000 for a league game and nearly 60,000 for a cup game. The Doc also brought in Rioch, Hamilton and McMahon. Although we got relegated the following season after a horrendous start, those players stayed with us under Vic Crowe to promote us back out the 3rd division onwards towards ultimate glory 10 years later.
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Interesting to read about Tommy Doc as it was before my time. It always sounded like he was all hype, but that is one of the things so badly missing today..a bit of feel good factor.
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Interesting to read about Tommy Doc as it was before my time. It always sounded like he was all hype, but that is one of the things so badly missing today..a bit of feel good factor.
Very evident in this clip - http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=45329
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I have to admit, that I feel worse now about supporting Villa than I did back in 86/87
Some of that is that back then there was still the hope that things will get better and that glory may still be just round the corner [or at least down the road] even after the relegation I still had hope and desire.
Now I'm afraid that I just feel empty about the whole thing. If we survive this season [and thanks to some other really poor sides we will] we will just have to go through the same next season.
Our chances of winning anything have gone for a burton along with any chance of a top six finish.
The train has left the station and we missed it
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John, take a break. You may have seen an awful lot more shite than most of us, but its best to bow out now and allow us youngers a moan. I am not slating you, or your wish to educate wastrels. But what we are seeing is shite and people have a right to moan.
Agreed. I just think the racist abuse is uncalled for. I will let you carry on.
Where is this racist abuse? Rather than have a go at the mods for something they haven't seen, why don't you try being helpful and drop a PM pointing it out?
I'll have a look in the morning Mr.Wenger.
Please do. I'd hate to think you were getting on your high horse for nothing.
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The difference for me , when I went down in 1986 , I could easily afford it . Now I cant .
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The players are financially set up for life after a season now, regardless of whether they play or not, regardless of performances.
In 1987 they were not.
Perhaps that is what makes some people feel worse now than back then.
But remember, we are still a long way from being relegated at present.
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Docherty , Mcneill and mcleish -relegation maybe ?
Wihout Tommy Docherty where would we have been today?
His first season woke Villa up from the doldrums. Admittedly it went wrong but it still got people interested in the club again, in no small way.
Agree 100% about The Doc. His first 6 months at the club were absolutely vital. Crowds were down to 13,000 and within weeks we had over 40,000 for a league game and nearly 60,000 for a cup game. The Doc also brought in Rioch, Hamilton and McMahon. Although we got relegated the following season after a horrendous start, those players stayed with us under Vic Crowe to promote us back out the 3rd division onwards towards ultimate glory 10 years later.
Docherty lifted us from the doldrums at a time when we had lost our way.
He is exactly the sort of character we need today.
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I personally would like to see Mr lerner take the decision now to relieve McLeish of his duties.He was up against it before he even started and whilst he's quite a likeable bloke his previous job will always be a problem with a number of the fans.This bad feeling has spread from the fans and you can see by the manner of the defeats that it's affecting the players.I can take defeat if I see the side having a go but in the games against United and Liverpool we've simply rolled over.That shouldn't be the mentality of an Aston Villa side and to be perfectly honest it's not what you'd expect of an Alex McLeish side.I can't see him turning it around and whilst it can be argued that less than half a season isn't enough to judge a manager it can also prove to be crucial when it comes to the final league position.Personally i'd go and have a go at getting Paul Lambert in.For me he's a young, hungry and determined character who is having two and half years of great success.The players he currently has at his disposal aren't of the quality we have at VP,but he's got them playing at their optimum.
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The Christmas Number one in 1986 was Reet Petite by Jackie Wilson. This year it looks as though it could be Cannonball by Little Mix.
'Petite', 'Little' Coincidence? I think not.
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So far this season I have yet to see anything so utterly spineless as the 3-0 defeat to Charlton at Selhurst Park on Easter Monday in 1987. We are not as bad as we were then - and we are still 10th too. This season is possibly more like 1985-86 when the decline was already visible.
Just trying to be positive, having been made redundant last week and thinking back to that truly shite season. I hope I never see another like it.
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John, take a break. You may have seen an awful lot more shite than most of us, but its best to bow out now and allow us youngers a moan. I am not slating you, or your wish to educate wastrels. But what we are seeing is shite and people have a right to moan.
Agreed. I just think the racist abuse is uncalled for. I will let you carry on.
Where is this racist abuse? Rather than have a go at the mods for something they haven't seen, why don't you try being helpful and drop a PM pointing it out?
I'll have a look in the morning Mr.Wenger.
Please do. I'd hate to think you were getting on your high horse for nothing.
Didn't have to look too far. No blinkers on this high horse. I'm saying no more on the matter.
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Could you kindly link to the offending racist posts, we'll consider them and take the appropriate action.
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There's no similarity
In 86/87 we scored a total of 5 goals in the home games against Man Utd and Liverpool and didn't lose.
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Could you kindly link to the offending racist posts, we'll consider them and take the appropriate action.
No. I suggest that you wait for the next one.
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Billy McNeill is worse than McLiesh by the same sort of margin as the top to the bottom of the Mariana Trench.
Fuck me, even O'Leary looks like a beacon of light compared to him.
Less of the drama. McLeish is making a mediocre job of it, at best, with a bunch of players who are, with odd exception, mediocre at best, in a league chock full of teams who even on a good day aren't even mediocre.
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Could you kindly link to the offending racist posts, we'll consider them and take the appropriate action.
No. I suggest that you wait for the next one.
No. You've accused people of making racist statements, and the mods of turning a blind eye, so either show us where this is supposed to have happened or admit that you're making things up.
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Could you kindly link to the offending racist posts, we'll consider them and take the appropriate action.
No. I suggest that you wait for the next one.
No. You've accused people of making racist statements, and the mods of turning a blind eye, so either show us where this is supposed to have happened or admit that you're making things up.
I never make things up. I will only give my name, rank and number.
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Is Gingerism now racist? Political correctness gone mad.Next thing you'll be telling me is that he doesn't stink of piss
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Is Gingerism now racist? Political correctness gone mad.Next thing you'll be telling me is that he doesn't stink of piss
You ask a question, assume the reply and answer it yourself. Wrong on all counts.
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Is Gingerism now racist? Political correctness gone mad.Next thing you'll be telling me is that he doesn't stink of piss
You ask a question, assume the reply and answer it yourself. Wrong on all counts.
Ok cheers, it's a motto that my wife shares with you.By the way isn't being anti Scottish xenephobic rather than racist?
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I can see similarities. We shouldn't have gone down with a team that 'on paper' looked stronger than the previous year. (Obviously this year we aren't stronger than last but still look too good on paper to go down). But a squad including Spink, Williams, Dorigo, Evans, Keown, Hunt, Walters, Gray and Thompson never performed as individuals or a team and the three promoted sides (including Norwich) all stayed up when people had Wimbledon and Charlton as certainties to go straight back down. The difference is we lost the first three games and never recovered. We were as good as down by January. And even our recent performances have not hit some of the lows of that season.
No-one who was at Charlton over the Easter will ever forget that day.
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The biggest concern for me is that whatever else you could say about his playing style the teams he has managed, including Small Heath were known for their fight. This team is completely devoid of that as far as I can tell, especially against the bigger clubs than us - I can stomach us losing at home to Manure and Liverpool, but, with the way we surrendered just makes it worse.
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Could you kindly link to the offending racist posts, we'll consider them and take the appropriate action.
No. I suggest that you wait for the next one.
For their to be a "next one", there has to be one in the first place, which you reckon there is but have singularly failed to point out. Accusing posters of racism and then not backing it up is pretty scummy behaviour.
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Not only have we not performed anywhere near as badly as we did that season we haven't plumbed the depths of Newcastle away just over 12 months ago.
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Not only have we not performed anywhere near as badly as we did that season we haven't plumbed the depths of Newcastle away just over 12 months ago.
I sense it's not far away though.
Why are they so pasionless against bigger teams in particular.
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Docherty , Mcneill and mcleish -relegation maybe ?
Wihout Tommy Docherty where would we have been today?
His first season woke Villa up from the doldrums. Admittedly it went wrong but it still got people interested in the club again, in no small way.
Agree 100% about The Doc. His first 6 months at the club were absolutely vital. Crowds were down to 13,000 and within weeks we had over 40,000 for a league game and nearly 60,000 for a cup game. The Doc also brought in Rioch, Hamilton and McMahon. Although we got relegated the following season after a horrendous start, those players stayed with us under Vic Crowe to promote us back out the 3rd division onwards towards ultimate glory 10 years later.
Docherty lifted us from the doldrums at a time when we had lost our way.
He is exactly the sort of character we need today.
Remember when we appointed him. Thought we were well and truly back in the big time, and he said some great things about us, the supporters.
He made 16 year old Jimmy Brown captain. Now that takes bollocks!
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Not only have we not performed anywhere near as badly as we did that season we haven't plumbed the depths of Newcastle away just over 12 months ago.
I sense it's not far away though.
Why are they so pasionless against bigger teams in particular.
Confidence, or the lack of it, would be my guess.
There is nothing to suggest we're going to get hammered by a mid table side which, is what the Newcastle game was, we've show a much better attitude in those games.
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This squad is much better than in 86/87, I went to a lot of games that season and we were extremely poor, this side has much more quality and should be doing so much better, that season we started with Turner who got sacked in the September then Mc Neil took over started with a 3 3 draw at Anfield but it was a false dawn, no similarities for me other than feeling worried all season.
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86/7 I actually thought we'd go down after the first game of the season.
We've a long way to go till things get that bad.
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But that squad started with Steve Hodge, Martin Keown, Paul Elliott, Tony Dorigo, Mark Walters who were all highly rated players. I only think 4 of the present 1-11 are any good. Bent, Gabby, Given and Dunne.
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I was thinking about this and this season has a few similarities to O'Neill's first season 2006-07. Unbeaten in the first 9 games we went on a run of two wins in 20 before finishing with 9 unbeaten. We have done the first part, may be in the process of matching the middle bit but with our end=of-season games I really can't see us doing the last bit.
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From Jan 2nd to March 17th we have a run of ten games with just the Man City game looking daunting. Add a couple of new faces into the mix and things could be looking a lot brighter. Obviously if we could try not to lose all three games between now and Jan 2nd that would be helpful.
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Another similarity with 1986 is that the Krankies were in the papers.
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Another similarity with 1986 is that the Krankies were in the papers.
I'm glad you brought that up. 'The Krankies - We Were Swingers' is my favourite news headline of the year.