Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: KevinGage on December 06, 2011, 10:00:30 AM
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Apologies if posted elsewhere.
clicky (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/dec/06/aston-villa-darren-bent-alex-mcleish)
Aston Villa must make better use of Darren Bent, says Alex McLeish
• England striker has fewest touches in Premier League
• Manager adamant he will not be forced out by fans
Rob Bagchi and Ewan Murray
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 6 December 2011 00.00 GMT
Aston Villa's manager, Alex McLeish, has pinpointed the need to supply the England striker Darren Bent with better service if the club are to turn around their disappointing run this season.
Villa's 1-0 home defeat by Manchester United on Saturday has left the club with a record of P14 W3 D7 L4 this season –matching precisely that of Birmingham City last season, the team McLeish managed before switching to Villa after Blues were relegated.
McLeish said "I'm not a quitter" after Villa's latest setback when his side were booed off at Villa Park on Saturday and insisted he is focused on providing better service to Bent. The England forward has touched the ball on average only 24.6 times per game this season, a figure that makes him comfortably the Premier League player with the fewest touches this season.
Worryingly for McLeish, Bent's strike partner Gabriel Agbonlahor is also in the bottom 10 for fewest touches this season with an average of 39 per game but it is making more use of Bent that is at the forefront of the manager's plans.
"He does make great movement, it's just a pity that sometimes we don't have quite the quality to see the runs and his movement," said McLeish.
"It's not easy, I'm just juggling the balls and asking for players to give me outstanding performances to stay in this team. We're looking for horses for courses every week now rather than saying: ' I can't leave him out.'
"There's seven out of 10 but we're looking for nines, eights or nines, and any of the midfielders that are ready to do that will be in this team. We created 10 chances in the Norwich game and he [Bent] got a couple of goals and could have had another couple so we are capable of doing it depending on our personnel.
"I've watched a couple of games from last season and Bent only had one chance in the Man City game, his debut, and scored so he was starved of service that night as well but the guy only needs one chance and he could have been rolled in by Emile [Heskey] and it may have been different.
"We've got to plug away. [Gabriel] Agbonlahor in the game last week had more efforts on goal than Bent but sometimes it will happen that way, we can't just rely on Bent to score us the goals. Gabby has been fantastic this season and we look for the kid to retain his consistency and to be an even bigger threat than he has been and obviously [Charles] N'Zogbia, guys like Mark Albrighton, who I thought did really well in the second half, to come to the fore also."
McLeish accepts Villa's form has not been good enough – the team were not only canned off at full-time on Saturday but left the field at half-time to a chorus of boos – but he is adamant that he will not be forced out by fan power.
"I'm not going to criticise the fans," he said. "You know how difficult it was for me coming here in the first place and I've just got to persevere. As I've told you guys, I'm not a quitter and I'll go as far as I can to get this club turned around. But you know where you have to improve the quality, we have to make sure we defend with concentration and we've got to be a threat in the last third."
Of the team's performance against the champions, he said: "We didn't pass it well, gave the ball away willy-nilly. I don't think we really believed in ourselves. Fans did not like it. I wasn't particularly keen on it either. I was in unison with the fans on that one and the second half was better and they went right to the very end which I would have demanded of every team I've coached or managed. We got that."
McLeish admitted he might need to ask the chairman, Randy Lerner, to make funds available to bolster his squad in January. "Yes, that will be a fact. But, as I said, we've still got to try and trade carefully. But if we need emergencies, we have to seriously consider that as a club."
McLeish has one prominent supporter in the Manchester United manager, Sir Alex Ferguson, who gave him some advice after Saturday's match. "He just said: 'You've got to keep going,'" said McLeish. "He said a few other things which will remain private but he said they were sweating a bit at the death after our second half."
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The stats get more and more astonishing.
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Not one but two strikers in the bottom ten.
Combined with a possession rate superior only to Stoke and it's not looking too clever, whichever way he wants to dress it up.
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You see this is exactly my problem with him - when he talks he sound like he knows what the problems are and will do something about it
But then this does not transfer onto the pitch or to the players and that is beyond me why?
If the players are not carrying out his instructions - drop the bastards
If what he says is just bullshit to placate fans etc - then he has to go
And pleeeeeeeeease drop the Fergie comments in almost every piece - not only is it boring but also quite insulting that we lap at the red faced ones feet all the time
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A B-lose supporting mate of mine -one of the few non Villa hating less rabid ones- warned me that this is what we would face in the summer.
"No," I confidently predicted. "If nothing else, he'll have to try and have a go. Otherwise there is no chance of the supporters taking to him."
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"But if we need emergencies, we have to seriously consider that as a club."
Sorry Alex, but Aston Villa, as a club, should not 'need emergencies.'
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I wouldn't expect Gabby likes being referred to as a "kid". That kid has been saving AM's bacon until now.
For me he can say what the hell he wants providing he sorts out the current mess. Plenty of managers are dealing with far less quality and are still managing to play some decent football and get results.
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This will lead to 'Villa strike demands to leave for sake of career'.
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His remedy to this will probably be to get Collins to hoof it ten yards further, in the hope it reaches Bent.
It is also not about "plugging away" as he says. That's the last thing anyone wants to see. It's about fundamentally changing your tactical approach, Alex, not keeping on doing the same thing.
That'll get you the sack.
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This will lead to 'Villa strike demands to leave for sake of career'.
Who can blame him?
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This will lead to 'Villa strike demands to leave for sake of career'.
and who would blame him?
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Not me at all, which is another reason why I think Mcleish needs to go.
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We do need to get better service to Gabby and Bent I just wish we can sort this problem out.
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You see this is exactly my problem with him - when he talks he sound like he knows what the problems are and will do something about it
But then this does not transfer onto the pitch or to the players and that is beyond me why?
Fully agree.
I can't believe it's a lack of quality as even after losing Young and Ash, we have enough to be better than we've seen. Why hasn't he been able to sort Albrighton and N'Zogbia's form out? Why the continual use of Heskey?
I'm not one of those calling for his head or writing off the season as a relegation dogfight, but actions speak loader than words, Alex.
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This is kinda odd. You'd think, with us not exactly stroking the ball about in midfield and playing a possession game, we'd at least be getting the ball to our strikers, arguably our best two players and both with the ability to hurt the opposition. But we're not doing that effectively, either.
So... what are we actually doing?
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He always talks well. He pin points the problems (probably because they're so obvious). And Alex seems to say the right things.
But then match day comes and it's all hot air. None of the things he highlights get addressed. We still hoof the ball out tor a throw or up field straight back for the opposition to come back at us. Our movement off the ball for throw ins is a joke. It's like nobody wants the ball. They all just stand there.
I'm worried that the best goal scoring potential we've had since possibly yorke is going to be gone in the summer.
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You see this is exactly my problem with him - when he talks he sound like he knows what the problems are and will do something about it
But then this does not transfer onto the pitch or to the players and that is beyond me why?
If the players are not carrying out his instructions - drop the bastards
If what he says is just bullshit to placate fans etc - then he has to go
And pleeeeeeeeease drop the Fergie comments in almost every piece - not only is it boring but also quite insulting that we lap at the red faced ones feet all the time
Indeed, and what he says about Bent is so blindingly obvious that he may as well change his name to "no shit Sherlock". Bent is not a target man, or an all round forward. He does one thing well, superbly even, and that's stick the ball in the onion bag consistently and frequently if provided with sufficient chances. With players like N'Zogbia, Albrighton, Ireland, Bannan, Petrov, Jenas and Gabby at his disposal you'd think McLeish could find a way of providing Bent with 2-3 chance per game, even against the big boys. But you don't do that by having your entire midfiled focussed only on stopping the opposition from scoring too many.
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I don't know why he felt the need to come out with all that. Just makes him look like he hasn't a clue. The comments about the midfield mind, look like a thinly veiled "my squad is shite" message.
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The bloke gets on my tits more and more every day
If players don't perform they will be dropped - bollocks
We were better in the second half - bollocks
heskey could be a centre half - bollocks
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This is kinda odd. You'd think, with us not exactly stroking the ball about in midfield and playing a possession game, we'd at least be getting the ball to our strikers, arguably our best two players and both with the ability to hurt the opposition. But we're not doing that effectively, either.
So... what are we actually doing?
We're proving quite how useless vague hoofball is at the highest level. Every game we're proving this.
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I bet we are at the top of the statistics for the most hoof's up the pitch .
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This will lead to 'Villa strike demands to leave for sake of career'.
And who could blame him
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I bet we are at the top of the statistics for the most hoof's up the pitch .
I'm pretty sure Blackburn are, and Stoke are surely there or thereabouts. The only way we wouldn't be up there as well is because we're so inefficient at winning the ball back we don't even give ourselves the chance to hoof it.
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This is kinda odd. You'd think, with us not exactly stroking the ball about in midfield and playing a possession game, we'd at least be getting the ball to our strikers, arguably our best two players and both with the ability to hurt the opposition. But we're not doing that effectively, either.
So... what are we actually doing?
We're proving quite how useless vague hoofball is at the highest level. Every game we're proving this.
We are. It's not my choice of style, but if we were playing a fast, high tempo game, getting the ball into Gabby and Bent quickly, stretching opposition defences and putting them under pressure - fine. At least the manager has assessed his options, decided that is what suits us best at this point in time. As it is, we're just.... like you say, just vaguely hoofing the ball about. It's very, very baffling.
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The bloke gets on my tits more and more every day
If players don't perform they will be dropped - bollocks
We were better in the second half - bollocks
heskey could be a centre half - bollocks
We were better in the second half, though.
That's not the problem. The problem is that, though we were better than in the first half, we were still nothing like good enough
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I bet we are at the top of the statistics for the most hoof's up the pitch .
Probably have the most consecutive and the furthest hoofs.
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I bet we are at the top of the statistics for the most hoof's up the pitch .
I'm pretty sure Blackburn are, and Stoke are surely there or thereabouts. The only way we wouldn't be up there as well is because we're so inefficient at winning the ball back we don't even give ourselves the chance to hoof it.
scary thought Blackburn scored 5 more goals than us ... not as bad as Stoke yet
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we'll be back to full effect hoofball against Bolton no doubt. After the failure of Albrighton, Jenas and Co, to make any impact in midfield against the mancs, i wouldn't blame him. Ivanhoe nailed on starter.
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To be deemed a "hoof" does it have to bounce strangely off a villa players head when being booted up field? Or is the action of mindlessly booting the ball up field as hard as you can constitute for a hoof ball?
If so I'm sure we're more than up there with Stoke and Blackburn.
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Perhaps the best way to get more touches is for both strikers to plant themselves in our penalty box, as they aren't going to get many otherwise. At least we may be able to clear some crosses.
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To be deemed a "hoof" does it have to bounce strangely off a villa players head when being booted up field? Or is the action of mindlessly booting the ball up field as hard as you can constitute for a hoof ball?
If so I'm sure we're more than up there with Stoke and Blackburn.
Hoofball is the art of intentionally losing the ball in the oppositions half in the hope that percentage wise the opposition will mess up once in a while and give you a chance
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Either everything he comes out with his bullshit or he cannot control the players to follow his orders. Either way, it does not auger well for his reign.
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A B-lose supporting mate of mine -one of the few non Villa hating less rabid ones- warned me that this is what we would face in the summer.
"No," I confidently predicted. "If nothing else, he'll have to try and have a go. Otherwise there is no chance of the supporters taking to him."
I had exactly the same conversation wih the only Bluenose I keep in touch with.
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My issue is lots of teams don't have our quality of players and are creating more chances week in week out. How did the Blackburn players get the ball to Yakubu at the weekend in order him to score 4 times against a side we barely got a shot away?
We need to stop talking about Young and Downing. They are gone. We need to stop talking about Barry and Milner. They are gone. There is enough technical ability remaining in this squad to be doing much better than it is, and we have two of the best forwards in the PL on top of that. Stop booting the ball 50 yards up the pitch and give the ball to the feet of our skill players. We'll be shocked at what might happen as a result.
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Plenty of managers are dealing with far less quality and are still managing to play some decent football and get results.
That's it in a nutshell for me.
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Plenty of managers are dealing with far less quality and are still managing to play some decent football and get results.
That's it in a nutshell for me.
Me too.
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clicky (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/dec/06/aston-villa-darren-bent-alex-mcleish)
Aston Villa must make better use of Darren Bent, says Alex McLeish
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Don't say it you muppet do it. It's your job.
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The way McLeish talks, his whole mindset is one of negativity. The words and phrases he uses are the words and phrases of a man used to managing relegation outfits - and they don't wash with what we have at the club at the moment. His whole mindest rubs off on the players and the club as a whole. An example:
"He (Bent) does make great movement, it's just a pity that sometimes we don't have quite the quality to see the runs and his movement," said McLeish.
The thing is I do think we have the quality. We do have players who can feed Bent, but, quite clearly they are being told to play in a certain way that makes this nigh on impossible. We have Bannan, Ireland, Petrov, N'Zog and Albrighton to name but five players who do have the quality to see Bent's runs. Talking the players down like this is astonishingly poor management in my view. How on earth is this kind of talk meant to lift the likes of Bannan and Albrighton? With quality young lads like that you need to give them fire in their bellies, lift them, give them support and and the freedom to express themselves.
The problem lies with McLeish's mindset and his limited abilities as a manager. That we have the same stats as Blues from this time last season just about sums things up perfectly. He has misjudged expectations at Villa and he is underestimating the players he has at his disposal, using the sales of Young and Downing as an excuse for where we find ourselves now.
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They broke it down on skysports news this afternoon and in the top 5 forwards who have had the least amount of touches also included Gabby on 470. He was number 5 and Bent, obviously, was number 1.
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Did'nt he constantly play Cameron Jerome up front on his own whilst at Small Heath?
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what has happened to diamond formation we had, surely this should be game plan for home mtaches and away we should have 2 wingers and 1 striker
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This can't go on.
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Mr Lerner, you have bought a Typhoon to put the bombs on target but you've hired a crew who has no idea how to use it.
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what has happened to diamond formation we had
Must admit that was the formation that gave us the best balance between attack and defense we've had so far this season.
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I almost wish that I hadn't read that article. If that's his attitude towards his midfield players then it's not surprising that they ignore him during games. Much as I didn't like MON's style of play, at least he knew how to motivate the players and always praised them in public.
If that's his attitude then I really can't imagine how things are going to improve as our players are clearly low on confidence and this article illustrates why he is not the man to turn it around. I really wanted him to succeed in this job but it seems to me that he's lost the mental battle already, despite the bullsh*t.
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I am glad I don't work for him. He is constantly blaming the players. Consistantly referring to the team as 'them' and never 'us' or 'we'. He distances himself whilst taking no responsibility with this inferred crticism as a third party. However, if there is an improvement ( ie second half) he takes credit for his instructions being followed. And yes, Gabby being called a 'kid'...
He is defensive in more ways than one. It is bad enough that he has completely lost my support as a Manager but now I am beginning to loath him as a person.
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The way McLeish talks, his whole mindset is one of negativity. The words and phrases he uses are the words and phrases of a man used to managing relegation outfits - and they don't wash with what we have at the club at the moment. His whole mindest rubs off on the players and the club as a whole....
That's an interesting point BW. When we stuffed the Blues 5-1 and he made that comment about not being able to compete with us, and how Villa had a different agenda, I remember thinking how pissed off I'd have been if our boss had said something as defeatist as that about us. However true it may have been, it's hardly going to raise self esteem, rally the troops and inspire confidence. That kind of thing really does reveal a lot about AM's mindset, that sometimes he sounds as if he thinks he is beaten before he starts, and it equates to piss poor management in my view.
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He is defensive in more ways than one. It is bad enough that he has completely lost my support as a Manager but now I am beginning to loath him as a person.
Same here. The amount of BS he spouts out is unreal, he lies all the time and is a backstabber too. Would he really care if he sent us down? Very doubtful considering he left the way he did when Blues were on the brink of administration.
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He is defensive in more ways than one. It is bad enough that he has completely lost my support as a Manager but now I am beginning to loath him as a person.
Same here. The amount of BS he spouts out is unreal, he lies all the time and is a backstabber too. Would he really care if he sent us down? Very doubtful considering he left the way he did when Blues were on the brink of administration.
I agree to an extent. Does anybody on this forum actually know Alex McLeish in person?
We keep hearing how honest and amiable AM is. But there has been statements and actions made by AM that contradicts that view.
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So do something about it then, you clueless muppet McLeish.
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Plenty of managers are dealing with far less quality and are still managing to play some decent football and get results.
That's it in a nutshell for me.
Given that 11 of them are below us in the league there are not many, other than Newcastle and the usual suspects, getting better results than us.
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So do something about it then, you clueless muppet McLeish.
Given that he's tried just about every combination possible from our midfield options I don't think you can accuse of him of not trying to something about it.
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He is defensive in more ways than one. It is bad enough that he has completely lost my support as a Manager but now I am beginning to loath him as a person.
Same here. The amount of BS he spouts out is unreal, he lies all the time and is a backstabber too. Would he really care if he sent us down? Very doubtful considering he left the way he did when Blues were on the brink of administration.
You manage to keep outdoing yourself for the bizarre invention of your posts.
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Get rid.
I have not said much about McLeish until now. When he joined I wanted to give him time. I have suggested he was not a bad manager to friends and colleagues, but I didn't really believe it. I was just, you know, trying to be supportive.
But its clear he hasn't got the foggiest. Why with nifty little ball shifters like Bannanan, Herd, Jenas, Albrighton etc in Midfield do we keep playing dumb and dumber at centre back and the chuckle brothers at fullback?
Hoofball is embarassing to watch when effective, its soul destroying when its ineffective.
We have two of the best strikers in the league, and their supply line consists of Heskey and punts on to opposition defenders heads.
The Board are showing themselves to be clueless and the manager is a buffoon.
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So do something about it then, you clueless muppet McLeish.
Given that he's tried just about every combination possible from our midfield options I don't think you can accuse of him of not trying to something about it.
Style of play. Instead of 'hoofball' and 'hit and hope', how about a little bit of pass and move, running off the ball, through-balls to feet?
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So do something about it then, you clueless muppet McLeish.
Given that he's tried just about every combination possible from our midfield options I don't think you can accuse of him of not trying to something about it.
Style of play. Instead of 'hoofball' and 'hit and hope', how about a little bit of pass and move, running off the ball, through-balls to feet?
I wish the players would do more of it, I don't believe they're told not to. It's a confidence thing, in my opinion.
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Chris you're so wrong, but as a regular observer of H and V I do find your last man standing approach to every debate quite entertaining. Keep up the good work.
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The way McLeish talks, his whole mindset is one of negativity. The words and phrases he uses are the words and phrases of a man used to managing relegation outfits - and they don't wash with what we have at the club at the moment. His whole mindest rubs off on the players and the club as a whole....
That's an interesting point BW. When we stuffed the Blues 5-1 and he made that comment about not being able to compete with us, and how Villa had a different agenda, I remember thinking how pissed off I'd have been if our boss had said something as defeatist as that about us.
Aye. I remember at the time being chuffed with that. Not just the result, but his acknowledgement -as B-lose- manager that the gulf in class was such that there was little he could do (bonus points to O'Neill afterwards for saying that beating a side like B-lose was not any kind of target to him, as we had far bigger priorities).
Deja vu after the Tottenham game a few weeks back. A part of me died when Big Eck rehashed that but just added 'Tottenham' in place of Villa, after our lot bravely held onto a 0-2 defeat.
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Chris you're so wrong, but as a regular observer of H and V I do find your last man standing approach to every debate quite entertaining. Keep up the good work.
I'm sure you think you're a great expert and that 14 games is enough to decide definitively on a manager, you're wrong but don't let that stop you. Keep up the crap work.
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Chris bit touchy there, but its not 14 games really is it? He showed what he could do at birmingham over the course of several seasons.
I'm not an expert (same as you) but I know hoof ball when I see it and I can spot an international striker that is getting zero service.
As I say I'm not an expert, but its not just me, its an awful lot of other people who like good football and hate hoof ball. Including pundits who usually can't wait to tell us Villa fans how wrong we are.
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The way McLeish talks, his whole mindset is one of negativity. The words and phrases he uses are the words and phrases of a man used to managing relegation outfits - and they don't wash with what we have at the club at the moment. His whole mindest rubs off on the players and the club as a whole....
That's an interesting point BW. When we stuffed the Blues 5-1 and he made that comment about not being able to compete with us, and how Villa had a different agenda, I remember thinking how pissed off I'd have been if our boss had said something as defeatist as that about us. However true it may have been, it's hardly going to raise self esteem, rally the troops and inspire confidence. That kind of thing really does reveal a lot about AM's mindset, that sometimes he sounds as if he thinks he is beaten before he starts, and it equates to piss poor management in my view.
He kind of said the same thing about Spurs.
They were a different class in terms of their players; their speed, their athleticism was too much for us tonight.
sounds like a broken record
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Yes, I am touchy to being patronised by a bloke with a stupid username.
He's managed us for 14 league games, some of them we've been crap, some of them we've been average and some of them we've been pretty good. When he's been in charge for 30 games or so we might have enough evidence to say he is this or he is that. At that moment it's just a reaction to the most recent performance.
I don't think we play "hoof ball" as a deliberate tactic, we don't have the players to do it for a start but we do resort to it sometimes in games because of a combination of lack of confidence, lack of ability and the opposition pressing us as they know they'll most likely win it when the ball is played long as we don't have a target man. If you want to play that way you don't pick Bannan, Albrighton, N'Zogbia etc.
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Chris bit touchy there, but its not 14 games really is it? He showed what he could do at birmingham over the course of several seasons.
I'm not an expert (same as you) but I know hoof ball when I see it and I can spot an international striker that is getting zero service.
As I say I'm not an expert, but its not just me, its an awful lot of other people who like good football and hate hoof ball. Including pundits who usually can't wait to tell us Villa fans how wrong we are.
11 wins in the last 52 prem games .
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So do something about it then, you clueless muppet McLeish.
Given that he's tried just about every combination possible from our midfield options I don't think you can accuse of him of not trying to something about it.
Style of play. Instead of 'hoofball' and 'hit and hope', how about a little bit of pass and move, running off the ball, through-balls to feet?
I wish the players would do more of it, I don't believe they're told not to. It's a confidence thing, in my opinion.
Yes that is it. You have hit the nail on the head. It's the confidence thing with all the players he has managed. The rubbish bunch he had at Blues managed to get themselves relegated twice by not following this tactical genius due to lack of confidence and now our lot are doing the same. ::)
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Yes, I am touchy to being patronised by a bloke with a stupid username.
He's managed us for 14 league games, some of them we've been crap, some of them we've been average and some of them we've been pretty good. When he's been in charge for 30 games or so we might have enough evidence to say he is this or he is that. At that moment it's just a reaction to the most recent performance.
I don't think we play "hoof ball" as a deliberate tactic, we don't have the players to do it for a start but we do resort to it sometimes in games because of a combination of lack of confidence, lack of ability and the opposition pressing us as they know they'll most likely win it when the ball is played long as we don't have a target man. If you want to play that way you don't pick Bannan, Albrighton, N'Zogbia etc.
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He has been using the same anti-football tactics at Blues and Rangers. What makes you think he'll change here? He said when he was appointed we wouldn't see negative tactics. Again, what makes you think he'll change? You reckon he'll magically fix our midfield in the January window? He had the chance to do it in the Summer window having over 10 million spending fee.
Also, I'd like you to answer this Chris. We're 3 points away from 16th and given the remaining fixtures we'll no doubt be in a relegation battle at the second half of the season. Now answer this. Do you think he is the right man to keep us up in a relegation battle?
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Chris I'm sorry my username has upset you.
By any bodies standards 3 wins in 14 for a club that has had an easier start to the season than most is pathetic. However as mentioned I could be ok with this if I could see some evidence of improvement, I can't. Can you? I also cannot see what tactics we are playing we play ugly football but not in an aggressive way, we don't press the opposition.
The lack of pass and move is demonstrated by the appalling possession stats. So that isn't mine or anyone elses opinion - its fact. Now tell me whether AM is asking the players to play this way or if they are not listening to his instructions? Whether you pick his tactics or his communication skills as being the problem either way he doesn't have the ability to manage at this level. this is demonstrated by his record with other premier league teams.
14 games may not be enough for you, but for me, if this is what he does with th first part of the season, I don't want to see how he will finish it off.
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I really cannot see the issue with a username, Chris.
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Yes, I am touchy to being patronised by a bloke with a stupid username.
He's managed us for 14 league games, some of them we've been crap, some of them we've been average and some of them we've been pretty good. When he's been in charge for 30 games or so we might have enough evidence to say he is this or he is that. At that moment it's just a reaction to the most recent performance.
I don't think we play "hoof ball" as a deliberate tactic, we don't have the players to do it for a start but we do resort to it sometimes in games because of a combination of lack of confidence, lack of ability and the opposition pressing us as they know they'll most likely win it when the ball is played long as we don't have a target man. If you want to play that way you don't pick Bannan, Albrighton, N'Zogbia etc.
I would say there has been more shit and average games then "some". In fact has their been one game where we have been confident we have won it by the 80 mins mark? We might have had a good spell in a game but that seems to be the exception and normally followed a totally shit spell. Only one game this season have we dominated possession, and considering we only have one more game to play against bottom 10 sides that is atrocious. You can also count shots on target per match with one hand. All that adds up to a team in serious decline.
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I see AM doing a lot of finger pointing, gestures and blowing a lot of hot air every game. He hardly ever sits down. I admire a manager that wants to get involved. But for all his red faced yelling and pointing I never see the players change what they're doing.
Like most here, I've never been against AM. The media are going to have a field day with all this. They can smell the blood and they're there to create stories. There's a story in AM failing, and us fans want him out for being a blue nose. Nothing to do with us actually not careing less where he came from but more worried about is track record and his tactics.
The fact our main striker is not getting the service and the stats are backing that up are very worrying. You can't hide behind the stats. You may be able to bend them slightly to suit your point of view but they're still pretty damning.
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Absolutely some of the press will be enjoying this.
For me it was never about him being a Bham manager. I actually felt sorry for him when I saw him crying in the post match interview when they went down. Is sympathy an emotion I want other clubs fans to feel about the Villa? No.
I want them to really hate us for being successful, but at the same time admire our style of play. Not holding my breath.
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Yes, I am touchy to being patronised by a bloke with a stupid username.
He's managed us for 14 league games, some of them we've been crap, some of them we've been average and some of them we've been pretty good. When he's been in charge for 30 games or so we might have enough evidence to say he is this or he is that. At that moment it's just a reaction to the most recent performance.
I don't think we play "hoof ball" as a deliberate tactic, we don't have the players to do it for a start but we do resort to it sometimes in games because of a combination of lack of confidence, lack of ability and the opposition pressing us as they know they'll most likely win it when the ball is played long as we don't have a target man. If you want to play that way you don't pick Bannan, Albrighton, N'Zogbia etc.
Chris I currently get more enjoyment watching my dog go for a shit. Ignoring all your hot air about our current manager the brand of football since his arrival is terrible,boring and some of the worst I have witnessed. Also you telling me Collins and Dunne don't hoof it?
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I really cannot see the issue with a username, Chris.
If some smart arse tries to patronise you it's even more grating when he's got a username a 14 year old Nuts reader would have grown out of by now.
I believe that 14 games is too soon to make a definitive judgement on a manager. I think Dave made the same point in his article that he linked to.
We produced good football recently against Norwich, for instance, which shows that we and the manager are capable of it and also undermines the argument that he wants us to play badly We just haven't done it often enough.
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Chris,
We had a good spell against Norwich.
We were hardly great throughout the full 90 mins
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Chris, as it goes I don't read Nuts. Happy to talk about our wider reading interests though, drop me a pm, as I'm not sure everybody else will be that interested.
I always thought the name Chris was a tiny bit bland, but that's by the by as I was hoping to chat football.
I am sorry if you feel patronised by me stating my thoughts about the team I support and the poor management of the team.
Don't think smart arse is a fair assessment either, I am sure one of the moderators will point you in the direction of the site rules if you haven't seen them already.
Oh and chill out, as mentioned I'm a big fan of your work.
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Absolutely some of the press will be enjoying this.
For me it was never about him being a Bham manager. I actually felt sorry for him when I saw him crying in the post match interview when they went down. Is sympathy an emotion I want other clubs fans to feel about the Villa? No.
I want them to really hate us for being successful, but at the same time admire our style of play. Not holding my breath.
It would be great wouldn't it but if you sell your 4 best players in just over 2 years and don't replace them the chances of people hating us fir our success are slim.
Similarly, if you then try to completely rebuild a midfield with a clutch of inexperienced kids the chances of that immediately working are, again, severely limited.
People keep harping back to his previous jobs but again they puck and choose the bits that suit them. His Rangers side, for instance, once scored 100 goals in a season. At the Blues he won promotion, took them to their first ever top half PL finish and won the Carling Cup. As everyone is so keen to quote their sensible Nose mate I'll do the same "every manager gets us relegated at some point, only one has ever won us a trophy", "we ran out of steam after the final but Dann's injury was why we went down".
I'm not trying to suggest that he'll definitely be a success (I wouldn't put money on it) but that it is too soon to say either way and that after saying that I'll give him a fair chance I'm going to be consistent and give him more than a third of a season.
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Chris, as it goes I don't read Nuts. Happy to talk about our wider reading interests though, drop me a pm, as I'm not sure everybody else will be that interested.
I always thought the name Chris was a tiny bit bland, but that's by the by as I was hoping to chat football.
I am sorry if you feel patronised by me stating my thoughts about the team I support and the poor management of the team.
Don't think smart arse is a fair assessment either, I am sure one of the moderators will point you in the direction of the site rules if you haven't seen them already.
Oh and chill out, as mentioned I'm a big fan of your work.
It was your views about me that were patronising, not your unoriginal "thought" about the team. If you don't want to go down this route don't kick it off by making personal remarks, Markeeeeeeeeeeee.
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It's typical of Villa. For years we've been crying out for an out and out goalscorer. We get one, and sell the two players who service him with the ball.
I'm not suggesting we should have kept Ashley Young or Downing against their will but why not replace them? Not even with funds necessarily.
McLeish should have given N'Zobia/Bannan and Albrighton the Downing and Young roles at the start of the season and played pretty much the same way as we did last year.
Herd, as good a player as he seems isn't a central midfielder either. Play the kid at RB and drop that useless Hutton.
McLeish's football is dreadful, but let's be honest - he ain't going to get fired whilst we're still paying off the last two managers!
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Chris,
We had a good spell against Norwich.
We were hardly great throughout the full 90 mins
Norwich also made it very easy for us by putting on one of the worst defensive displays seen at Villa Park in a long time.
Chris is putting a positive sheen on it, but we quite clearly have not been good with any consistency, because we've only won three games all season, and taken 5 points from the last 21, despite a relatively easy opening to the season.
What's more, we're at or near the bottom of the shots on goal, possession and passes completed charts, which is a reflection of the truly awful football we've played.
This isn't people imagining things. This is not just a mid table side being a mid table side. This is a team playing very poor, unadventurous, defensive football.
Our 18m striker has had, on average per match, fewer touches of the ball this year than any other player in the Premier League. He night as well not be on the pitch. It's exactly like Cameron Jerome under the same manager at Blues - except this striker is a really good one.
it really is thoroughly depressing.
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It's doubtful that I will think of much original to say about AMac. There is nothing much fresh and innovative to say about steadily declining dour football.
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For a neutral the Norwich game would have been very entertaining. Although a lot of that is probably down to how bad both sides defended at times, especially Norwich.
The truth is that we were outplayed for the first half an hour and if it hadn't been for Given we could have been 3 down. Fortunately, their keeper bottled that challenge on Gabby and we got the 3 points despite having less shots on target and less possession at home to a side that 2 years ago were in Division 3.
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It's doubtful that I will think of much original to say about AMac. There is nothing much fresh and innovative to say about steadily declining dour football.
No, because that would mean having to think about it and I don't get the impression that's a strong point.
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It's doubtful that I will think of much original to say about AMac. There is nothing much fresh and innovative to say about steadily declining dour football.
No, because that would mean having to think about it and I don't get the impression that's a strong point.
Give it a rest, Chris.
You're as bad as him.
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Chris,
We had a good spell against Norwich.
We were hardly great throughout the full 90 mins
Norwich also made it very easy for us by putting on one of the worst defensive displays seen at Villa Park in a long time.
Chris is putting a positive sheen on it, but we quite clearly have not been good with any consistency, because we've only won three games all season, and taken 5 points from the last 21, despite a relatively easy opening to the season.
What's more, we're at or near the bottom of the shots on goal, possession and passes completed charts, which is a reflection of the truly awful football we've played.
This isn't people imagining things. This is not just a mid table side being a mid table side. This is a team playing very poor, unadventurous, defensive football.
Our 18m striker has had, on average per match, fewer touches of the ball this year than any other player in the Premier League. He night as well not be on the pitch. It's exactly like Cameron Jerome under the same manager at Blues - except this striker is a really good one.
it really is thoroughly depressing.
Dont forget our awesome performance in the cup .
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If the highlight of the season so far is a game where we let 2 in against a newly promoted Norwich team. But managed to score 3. We are going to be in big trouble.
Chatting to a Man U fan at work and he said the recent game was the worst they had played all season, and yet we could barely muster a shot.
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It's typical of Villa. For years we've been crying out for an out and out goalscorer. We get one, and sell the two players who service him with the ball.
I'm not suggesting we should have kept Ashley Young or Downing against their will but why not replace them? Not even with funds necessarily.
McLeish should have given N'Zobia/Bannan and Albrighton the Downing and Young roles at the start of the season and played pretty much the same way as we did last year.
Herd, as good a player as he seems isn't a central midfielder either. Play the kid at RB and drop that useless Hutton.
McLeish's football is dreadful, but let's be honest - he ain't going to get fired whilst we're still paying off the last two managers!
We also lost Reo Coker who is far from being my favourite player but did still need replacing. That's what I meant by having to completely rebuild the midfield. It's relatively easy to bring a new player into an established set up but it's much more problematic when a new manager is having to start from scratch with players you might not necessarily have chosen yourself.
I think we all expected N'Zogbia and Albrighton to give us much more than they have, some of you are convinced that is the manager's fault but I tend to put responsibility on the players.
I'm not defending him out of any sense of loyalty, I didn't want him in the first place, but I do aknowledge that he's taken over in difficult circumstances and that "calls for his sacking are ludicrously premature".
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I think the biggest single mistake Alex McLeish has made was to tell his whole squad that past sins are forgiven and everybody starts with a clean sheet.
These are boy scout sentiments which have no place in top flight football.
Houllier had smoked out the disruptive elements in the squad and had started to show signs that he was getting results but he had to leave and the dressing room power plays kicked off again.
I refuse to believe that Alex McLeish tells the back four to play the ball in the air. I think he tells them until he is blue in the face that they must play the ball on the ground through the midfield but when they get out on the pitch they revert to type and put their laces through the ball at every opportunity. The problem is lack of discipline and lack of respect for the manager.
In the old days players who did not do as they were told were dropped into the reserves and the appropriate player from the reserves promoted to the first team. Now the bench is used as the naughty step and then very briefly.
If I were the manager I would say to Collins the next time you break down a passing movement with a launch of the ball vaguely towards Bent's head you will be in the stiffs for a month. Ditto to Warnock the first time he ball watches and roams out of position and likewise to Hutton the first time he wipes out an opponent when a simple dispossession is needed.
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But if that's true, Brian, why not drop them from the team? Cuellar and Clark are perfectly decent defenders, one of whom can pass the ball quite comfortably, while the other is, in my view, at least the equal of Dunne or Collins in the air.
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Clark is very comfortable on the ball. As CDJ says, why, if Collins and Dunne aren't doing what McLeish tells them, is he not even getting a sniff?
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Clark is very comfortable on the ball. As CDJ says, why, if Collins and Dunne aren't doing what McLeish tells them, is he not even getting a sniff?
I'd assume it's to do with Mcleish career long aversion to using younger players. He always sides with experienced players, and that is just another thing Villa do not need.
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Chatting to a Man U fan at work and he said the recent game was the worst they had played all season, and yet we could barely muster a shot.
fuck me, how quick did he forget there derby?
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Ha ha very true.
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If we're going to make a change then it should be Collins, but for me Dunne and Clarke doesn't work (Man City away this season, Newcastle away last are 2 that spring to mind) because they're both left sided and don't appear to function as a pair. Cuellar isn't going to improve the composure on the ball and Collins defensively has been sound for the past two games so there's no obvious justification for it, other than to make a point as Brian suggests. The problem with that is such is the readiness to blame AM for everything he'll be slaughtered for it if Cuellar makes a mistake. (See how to some it s his fault that Bannan and Albrighton under performed at the weekend.)
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Clark is very comfortable on the ball. As CDJ says, why, if Collins and Dunne aren't doing what McLeish tells them, is he not even getting a sniff?
I'd assume it's to do with Mcleish career long aversion to using younger players. He always sides with experienced players, and that is just another thing Villa do not need.
Hmm, *scratches head* Herd and Delph at Swansea, Herd, Bannan and Albrighton on Saturday.
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Right ok Collins, Dunne, Heskey, Warnock, Petrov. I'd say he initially grudgingly played Bannan and Albrighton is due to N'Zogbia's indiscretion. Fair enough on Herd.
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If we're going to make a change then it should be Collins, but for me Dunne and Clarke doesn't work (Man City away this season, Newcastle away last are 2 that spring to mind) because they're both left sided and don't appear to function as a pair. Cuellar isn't going to improve the composure on the ball and Collins defensively has been sound for the past two games so there's no obvious justification for it, other than to make a point as Brian suggests. The problem with that is such is the readiness to blame AM for everything he'll be slaughtered for it if Cuellar makes a mistake. (See how to some it s his fault that Bannan and Albrighton under performed at the weekend.)
That's an odd point on Cuellar, Chris. He shouldn't bring Cuellar in, in case he makes a mistake, and he'll get slaughtered for it?
Is anything ever McLeish's fault? Or even his responsibility?
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If we're going to make a change then it should be Collins, but for me Dunne and Clarke doesn't work (Man City away this season, Newcastle away last are 2 that spring to mind) because they're both left sided and don't appear to function as a pair.
You may have a point there.
It was only one game (though there might have been others I can't recall) but Clark and Cuellar looked very composed as a partnership a few years ago v Fulham at home. I remember it because I was nervous pre kick off. But Clark and Cuellar actually looked more secure than Davies and Cuellar. There was a natural balance to the partnership.
I'd be tempted to go with it again, but perhaps against a more footballling side, rather than the likes of Bolton, Blackburn, Stoke et.c
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I think Alex is making the same mistake with the ne'erdowells as Sir Brian did with Stanley Collymore. He is trying to rationalize things when what they want if they do not stick to orders is a kick up the arse. To quote the little known line from the flip side of Ghost Riders In The Sky "don't try to understand 'em, just throw and rope and brand 'em" loud sound of whip cracking.
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Not too worried about Bent as minimal touches is part of his game. Gabby's a bit more worrying.
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If we're going to make a change then it should be Collins, but for me Dunne and Clarke doesn't work (Man City away this season, Newcastle away last are 2 that spring to mind) because they're both left sided and don't appear to function as a pair. Cuellar isn't going to improve the composure on the ball and Collins defensively has been sound for the past two games so there's no obvious justification for it, other than to make a point as Brian suggests. The problem with that is such is the readiness to blame AM for everything he'll be slaughtered for it if Cuellar makes a mistake. (See how to some it s his fault that Bannan and Albrighton under performed at the weekend.)
That's an odd point on Cuellar, Chris. He shouldn't bring Cuellar in, in case he makes a mistake, and he'll get slaughtered for it?
Is anything ever McLeish's fault? Or even his responsibility?
No, if he thinks it is the right thing to he should do it. My point is that half of the people advocating change will twist it to still stick the knife in if the change isn't immediately a success - the midfield on Saturday being an example.
Obviously I'm not meaning you or any of the more thoughtful posters in that but I'm sure you know what I mean.
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I was hopeful when he played that midfield on Saturday, but ultimately, he just sent them out to do the same thing - zero ambition.
He'd get cut a lot more slack from people if he got us actually showing a little bit of ambition. I can't speak for anyone else but for me, it's not poor results that worry me, it is the way we go out and play.
I can handle losing if we at least try to win games. That's what we don't seem to be doing.
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I was hopeful when he played that midfield on Saturday, but ultimately, he just sent them out to do the same thing - zero ambition.
He'd get cut a lot more slack from people if he got us actually showing a little bit of ambition. I can't speak for anyone else but for me, it's not poor results that worry me, it is the way we go out and play.
I can handle losing if we at least try to win games. That's what we don't seem to be doing.
I think that's the crux of where we differ. If he wanted to play the type of unambitious football you suggest he'd pick players more adept at doing it. He picked a team to press high up the pitch and use the ball. That's what we saw in the second half, we lacked any real quality but we at least tried to play the game in their half.
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Not too worried about Bent as minimal touches is part of his game. Gabby's a bit more worrying.
Thats the problem really its not bents Minimal touches its what happened with those minimal touches and where they were. If bent touched the ball 3 times and scored with each touch that would do me.
We cant expect Bent to be a Doyle type player, hes one of the best goal scorers in the league and when you have a player like that you need to build the whole team round him you need a system that gets the ball to him in dangerous areas.
So far Ive seen nothing that suggests McLeish is doing this maybe hes waiting for Bent to go so we can swoop in for Zigic and then Colins can boot the ball to his content!
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I know from a totally reliable source that he didn't buy Zigic, it was a "gift" from the owners, he wanted to spend the money elsewhere.
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McLeish himself said that at the meeting with supporters prior to the season.
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Worried
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I know from a totally reliable source that he didn't buy Zigic, it was a "gift" from the owners, he wanted to spend the money elsewhere.
Still he seems to suit McLeish's current style of play
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So we have a manager who may be worried about dropping some of senior guard or telling them to stop hoofing it according to some, and also lets his chairman buy players for him. If any of that is true he's needs to grow some balls and quickly if he wants a viable career as a manager. He may not have noticed but his career prospects weren't exactly A1 when he joined us and if he fails here there's nowhere to go and he'll be standing on a pitch next to Southgate and Keane doing pre-match summarising for the rest of his life. If you're gonna get the sack, you might as well get it managing the team your way Alex.
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Seems to me that he is managing the team his way. And that way is the same way he Managed Birmingham, irrespective of the totally different squad of players. Apparently it was the same turgid stuff at Rangers.
I am still smarting from Barnes's comment after the Utd game:
" You can play that kind of football at Birmingham but not a Club like Aston Villa. " Quite right too.
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well the players ignoring his instructions bit doesn't ring true but then certain individuals tried it with Houllier last season by their own admission so who knows.
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I'll refrain away from the McLeish basing for a bit to just ask...why oh why didn't we sign Bent at any time under MON?!
I think if we'd have him, we'd have got 4th in 2009 or 2010.
People slagging him off are missing the point, he's absolutely the right forward for us, we've just signed him at the wrong time. He would've been brilliant in an MON team imo with all the crosses flying in every 5 seconds.
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Seems to me that he is managing the team his way. And that way is the same way he Managed Birmingham, irrespective of the totally different squad of players. Apparently it was the same turgid stuff at Rangers.
I am still smarting from Barnes's comment after the Utd game:
" You can play that kind of football at Birmingham but not a Club like Aston Villa. " Quite right too.
Have you just made that up about Rangers? They won the title scoring over 100 times in the process.
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Seems to me that he is managing the team his way. And that way is the same way he Managed Birmingham, irrespective of the totally different squad of players. Apparently it was the same turgid stuff at Rangers.
I am still smarting from Barnes's comment after the Utd game:
" You can play that kind of football at Birmingham but not a Club like Aston Villa. " Quite right too.
Have you just made that up about Rangers? They won the title scoring over 100 times in the process.
Wigan could probably score 100 goals in that league
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Then how come it doesn't happen every season?
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Getting a team playing decent football when managing Rangers in that tin pot league is one thing, being able to do it in our league is another thing entirely.
As AM found out when he came down here.
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From Yahoo website: "Bent's five goals have come from just 11 shots on target, giving him a conversion rate that is actually slightly better than the league's top scorer Robin Van Persie."
Now if we could only find a midfiled and some tactics capable of delivering the ball into the box a bit more often....
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From Yahoo website: "Bent's five goals have come from just 11 shots on target, giving him a conversion rate that is actually slightly better than the league's top scorer Robin Van Persie."
Now if we could only find a midfiled and some tactics capable of delivering the ball into the box a bit more often....
I read on Twitter this morning that Cavani has scored 4 Champions League goals for Napoli from only 4 shots on target, sounds like the sort of conversion rate we need if this lack of creativity continues...
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I remember McLeish was getting untold stick at Rangers at one point, didn't they finish 3rd under him one season?
And if you look back I'm sure some of Rangers champions league performances were probably pretty negative although maybe not as much as the one that got to the Uefa cup final under Walter Smith a few years ago.
In defence of McLeish though, he did bring Arteta to Britain and got him playing well so it's not like he can't identify creative players, he just has trouble forming a team that can do it.
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Seems to me that he is managing the team his way. And that way is the same way he Managed Birmingham, irrespective of the totally different squad of players. Apparently it was the same turgid stuff at Rangers.
I am still smarting from Barnes's comment after the Utd game:
" You can play that kind of football at Birmingham but not a Club like Aston Villa. " Quite right too.
Have you just made that up about Rangers? They won the title scoring over 100 times in the process.
I said " apparently it was the same turgid stuff". I didn't quote his stats and thus it was not a definitive attack. However, I stick by it, as according to both Rangers fans and pundits the footy was poor, in the same "turgid' sort of style as Blues and us and finishing third in that league didn't win him plaudits. That is not making anything up is it.
I am more interested in how he has managed to turn us into Aston Heath.
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I don't think Alex McLeish is very good as this football management lark.
As any fule kno, Heskey plays best with his back to goal, and Bent is best facing the goal. But every single game McLeish sends them out to do the opposite.
Now I'm just an armchair fan. And maybe I (and hundreds of other fans) are thick and no nothing about football, whereas McLeish being a former footballer himself is actually the holder of some arcane knowledge and is confident that Bent will turn into a target man and Heskey will morph into Francesco Totti.
But somehow I doubt it.
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If the highlight of the season so far is a game where we let 2 in against a newly promoted Norwich team. But managed to score 3. We are going to be in big trouble.
Chatting to a Man U fan at work and he said the recent game was the worst they had played all season, and yet we could barely muster a shot.
Is an astute observation. On balance, I thought the united game was the better watch. I expected to lose by 3 or 4 and up to Hernandez going off we were great. Even when they were on top they never looked like scoring several and unusually it was the red supporting fools I was watching with who were bricking it in the last 10 minutes - they were sure we were going to score (god knows why). We did however nullify the 2nd best team in England for most of the game - the 'worst' they had played all season says something about our efforts - they had only 11 attempts 5 on target to our 7 and 3 and 11 attempts is not running riot. Against Norwich they had 9 & 7 and we had 12 & 6. and 12 attempts at home when you are winning is poor. We may have played some better football, but against inferior players.
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I'll refrain away from the McLeish basing for a bit to just ask...why oh why didn't we sign Bent at any time under MON?!
I think if we'd have him, we'd have got 4th in 2009 or 2010.
Probably because at no time during MON's stint would Bent have been available at a price that would have made MON keen.
We would never have been in the running when he moved to Tottingham for £18 million in 2007. And in 2009 -when he moved to Sunderland- he wanted guaranteed first team football after being in and out with the Spurs side, so even if we were prepared to match the £12/£13 mill Sunderland offered, it's far from certain he would have automatically pitched up here. From the outside looking in, he would have had two England strikers and John Carew ahead of him in the pecking order. Sunderland was far less of a gamble in that regard.
I think the hope had been that Gabby would have become our Bent too- but quicker. That might still happen, should we get a bid we can't refuse for the latter.