Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Toronto Villa on December 05, 2011, 08:11:55 PM
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Stan is on Talksport right now talking Villa. Actually seems to be all Villa with a bit of other clubs when discussing fan expectations.
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Just been listening to it on my way home.
Stan makes some good points. Basically what we know, the board backed MoN but haven't really, as yet, backed AM. He's had to cut the wage bill etc.
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Please elaborate.
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I've missed this, but Adrian Durham seemed to be talking sense about us earlier.
Stan never admits the fact that MON spent 4 years spending millions, then jumped ship when it came to budgeting.
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Just watched the first half of Fulham v Liverpool,Pool have the better players but Jol has got Fulham playing some neat football and i don't remember Jol being given a big transfer kitty. The comparison with the brand of football Villa are playing is stark. How many would trust Mcleish to bring in better players if he had the money?
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Is it worth tuning in or is it the same old shit?
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Just watched the first half of Fulham v Liverpool,Pool have the better players but Jol has got Fulham playing some neat football and i don't remember Jol being given a big transfer kitty. The comparison with the brand of football Villa are playing is stark. How many would trust Mcleish to bring in better players if he had the money?
Well that Ruiz fella cost the best part of 11m and crucially they managed to keep hold of Dempsey and Hangeland so I'd guess that they had quite a large transfer deficit compared to us. However you point about their quality of football is still valid, they do try and play good football.
Nice to see that Downing has been dropped again...
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Fulham are essentially the same squad hat have served them well for a couple of seasons and they're not having to fill their midfield with promising but inexperienced kids.
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I turned it off in disgust after hearing them constantly claim that the only reason Villa fans want AM out is because he used to be Blues manager. I was hoping at least Stan could see the real issues rather than that cop out of an argument.
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I turned it off in disgust after hearing them constantly claim that the only reason Villa fans want AM out is because he used to be Blues manager. I was hoping at least Stan could see the real issues rather than that cop out of an argument.
Indeed. If I hear that argument one more time I will scream and the people I'm most annoyed with are the idiot Villa fans who should know better.
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Fulham are essentially the same squad hat have served them well for a couple of seasons and they're not having to fill their midfield with promising but inexperienced kids.
Well, I suppose that's the benefit of not having an owner intent on asset stripping the club to pay for his costly errors of the last few years.
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Fulham are essentially the same squad hat have served them well for a couple of seasons and they're not having to fill their midfield with promising but inexperienced kids.
Oh Chris, Fulham had the right attitude against Liverpool and it prevailed. Far more entertaining that our match on Saturday.
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I turned it off in disgust after hearing them constantly claim that the only reason Villa fans want AM out is because he used to be Blues manager. I was hoping at least Stan could see the real issues rather than that cop out of an argument.
Indeed. If I hear that argument one more time I will scream and the people I'm most annoyed with are the idiot Villa fans who should know better.
It is frustrating to hear. And I am so sick and tired of hearing about finances and budgets etc. I wish modern day football would just collapse.
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Fulham are essentially the same squad hat have served them well for a couple of seasons and they're not having to fill their midfield with promising but inexperienced kids.
I bet if you asked our supporters if they'd like to have a thirty odd year old Danny Murphy and Dickson Etuhu in our midfield most of them would say no and probably prefer our (limited) options. That may be a bit unfair on Etuhu or Murphy but it strikes me the difference in personnel is much less significant than the quality of management (not just the manager of the team) and the approach of the team.
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I turned it off in disgust after hearing them constantly claim that the only reason Villa fans want AM out is because he used to be Blues manager. I was hoping at least Stan could see the real issues rather than that cop out of an argument.
Indeed. If I hear that argument one more time I will scream and the people I'm most annoyed with are the idiot Villa fans who should know better.
It is frustrating to hear. And I am so sick and tired of hearing about finances and budgets etc. I wish modern day football would just collapse.
Yeah the Villa fans who do phone in only ever seem to prove their argument correct. Apparently the fact that AM plays negative defensive football is a myth, and during training Sid/KM have them playing free flowing attacking football so its the players at fault for not doing this on matchdays.
I do question whether or not another manager would do any better with the shite squad that we have but some ppl clearly see what we see on the pitch in a completely different light and are completely blind to the fact that AM isnt actually a very good manager.
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Stan made one interesting point that had some merit. Said Bent is a luxury we are not presently utilising. Would probably be better off if we sold him for £25m, and spent the money on two good attacking fullbacks, or two good midfielders. Difficult to disagree, in my opinion.
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Stan made one interesting point that had some merit. Said Bent is a luxury we are not presently utilising. Would probably be better off if we sold him for £25m, and spent the money on two good attacking fullbacks, or two good midfielders. Difficult to disagree, in my opinion.
Our gameplan should be to create as many chances for Bent as possible, he may miss the first but he'll sure as heck bury the second, its a crime that we have a player like Bent and don't utilise him properly.
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Stan made one interesting point that had some merit. Said Bent is a luxury we are not presently utilising. Would probably be better off if we sold him for £25m, and spent the money on two good attacking fullbacks, or two good midfielders. Difficult to disagree, in my opinion.
Our gameplan should be to create as many chances for Bent as possible, he may miss the first but he'll sure as heck bury the second, its a crime that we have a player like Bent and don't utilise him properly.
It's been our biggest downfall of late. Apart from a header at Spurs, he's hardly has a sniff in the last 3 games, which is not really good enough.
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Fulham are essentially the same squad hat have served them well for a couple of seasons and they're not having to fill their midfield with promising but inexperienced kids.
I bet if you asked our supporters if they'd like to have a thirty odd year old Danny Murphy and Dickson Etuhu in our midfield most of them would say no and probably prefer our (limited) options. That may be a bit unfair on Etuhu or Murphy but it strikes me the difference in personnel is much less significant than the quality of management (not just the manager of the team) and the approach of the team.
I disagree with that completely. Bannan and co would benefit immensely from having somebody like Danny Murphy organising them. Herd hasn't looked the same player without Petrov prompting him. Central midfield is the most important part of a team and you need people who understand the game in there.
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Fulham are essentially the same squad hat have served them well for a couple of seasons and they're not having to fill their midfield with promising but inexperienced kids.
How long does it take for the kids to stop being inexperienced?
Albrighton and Bannan both started the fixture against Man United last season.
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Fulham are essentially the same squad hat have served them well for a couple of seasons and they're not having to fill their midfield with promising but inexperienced kids.
How long does it take for the kids to stop being inexperienced?
Albrighton and Bannan both started the fixture against Man United last season.
I don't know but neither looked like they'd got there yet on Saturday. Nor did Herd and Jenas, understandably, was still finding his feet.
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Yeah the Villa fans who do phone in only ever seem to prove their argument correct. Apparently the fact that AM plays negative defensive football is a myth, and during training Sid/KM have them playing free flowing attacking football so its the players at fault for not doing this on matchdays.
How do they explain Birmingham City playing the same style last season? Coincidence? But in all seriousness, the media depicts fans as an angry mob and disloyal if they dare boo. These "football" people ( pundits like Mark Lawrenson) need a reality check. Would they feel aggrieved if they went out for a meal and received raw food? What is the difference?
I do question whether or not another manager would do any better with the shite squad that we have but some ppl clearly see what we see on the pitch in a completely different light and are completely blind to the fact that AM isnt actually a very good manager.
I think it is more to do with nepotism for AM, and not particularly caring about Aston Villa because we are an unfashionable club.
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Fulham are essentially the same squad hat have served them well for a couple of seasons and they're not having to fill their midfield with promising but inexperienced kids.
How long does it take for the kids to stop being inexperienced?
Albrighton and Bannan both started the fixture against Man United last season.
I don't know but neither looked like they'd got there yet on Saturday. Nor did Herd and Jenas, understandably, was still finding his feet.
Nor did Alan Hutton or James Collins, though, and how many games have they got under their belts?
I also think it's true the midfield is a mess, but it's wrong to suggest that's the only problem. The defence looks dreadful, too, and seems to operate on the basis of "when it comes anywhere near you, belt it as far up field as you can".
Not to mention Warnock reverting to old habits, and Hutton getting pulled out of position every 2 minutes.
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How difficult is it to play successive balls into the 'penalty area' and therefore to Bent from the wings? Really not a sarcastic point, just a question.
We've got Gabby and Albrighton and CNZ, all of whom are masters at this, if we look at Youtube of them over the last 3-5 seasons.
Isn't the 'missing link' somewhere else? Either the insistence of the defence to launch it into space or an absence of somebody in midfield to go, 'hey boys, keep it on the deck, we can cope.' I've seen our players and, playing to their usual capacities, they can cope.
(And - this is where I lose a lot of you) Including Emile, when he's on, doing the forward holding-up thing, rather than the midfield or defence thing.
But - back to the missing link - who is the player who has the say? Right now, I think it's RD and that's clearly so wrong. I'm just judging from the last few performances. We should have somebody galvanising the lads from midfield, if only to remind the defence that there is one!
I had hopes of Jenas as an organiser but he's out again, and anyway he's not 'ours'. I'm sorry but I think Petrov is a bit past his sell by, to have that much of an impact.
How's young Gardner as an inspirational leader, and can we hang on till January?!
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The defence looks dreadful, too, and seems to operate on the basis of "when it comes anywhere near you, belt it as far up field as you can".
Well said.
Absolutely true!
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Fulham are essentially the same squad hat have served them well for a couple of seasons and they're not having to fill their midfield with promising but inexperienced kids.
How long does it take for the kids to stop being inexperienced?
Albrighton and Bannan both started the fixture against Man United last season.
I don't know but neither looked like they'd got there yet on Saturday. Nor did Herd and Jenas, understandably, was still finding his feet.
Nor did Alan Hutton or James Collins, though, and how many games have they got under their belts?
I also think it's true the midfield is a mess, but it's wrong to suggest that's the only problem. The defence looks dreadful, too, and seems to operate on the basis of "when it comes anywhere near you, belt it as far up field as you can".
Not to mention Warnock reverting to old habits, and Hutton getting pulled out of position every 2 minutes.
I was thinking about this early, and there really are very few of the current crop of Villa players I enjoy watching. Gabby in top form can be an electrifying sight, and I enjoy Bannan's ability when he's playing well, but mostly they're just all horrible to watch. The defence is dire to a man, with a couple of lumpen cloggers in Dunne and Collins lumbering around booting everything into row Z, and two very poor full backs in Warnock, and especially Hutton who is just so bad he almost defies description. Then in midfield we have Petrov, who while still being a quality player in my opinion is hardly a player to put bums on seats. Then there's N'Zogbia, who isn't fit to lace Ashley Young or even Stewart Downing's boots, Albrighton, who I enjoyed seeing last year but who has been rubbish this, Ireland who strolls around without a care in the world, Heskey, well, enough said, Delph who I have to say is extremely underwhelming, and Bent, who is great when he's poking home rebounds, but is anonymous the rest of the time.
And of course the football that our dismal excuse for a manager is trying to get them to play is just dire, he isn't even good at trying to play dull, yet safe football. What excitement there has been watching Villa has been completely lost of late.
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Stan made one interesting point that had some merit. Said Bent is a luxury we are not presently utilising. Would probably be better off if we sold him for £25m, and spent the money on two good attacking fullbacks, or two good midfielders. Difficult to disagree, in my opinion.
That is perhaps the worst idea I've heard in a long time. There is no point risking selling Bent on the off chance that AM may buy a couple of players who may help create chances, only to find we've just sold the only player capable of putting the chances away.
Bent is not a luxury; he's one of our few players who can actually put the ball in the back of the net and help get us out of this mess. A better idea would be to make sure we keep hold of the first natural goalscorer we've had down Villa Park in years, and play to and utilise the strengths of Bent by actually creating half decent chances. If we cant create those chances with the players at fullback or in midfield then we have a huge problem.
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My observation on Fulham really was to point out that Villa man for man have better players but no system. The most exited i got against United was when Dunne went on a run, i think even he was pissed off with the lack of any forward movement, we can pick on individual players but collectively the team should be playing well above the performances they are presenting us with and for that the buck stops with the manager. I cannot see AM turning this around my only worry is that Lerner will leave it too late for us to get out of the mess.
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I turned it off in disgust after hearing them constantly claim that the only reason Villa fans want AM out is because he used to be Blues manager. I was hoping at least Stan could see the real issues rather than that cop out of an argument.
Indeed. If I hear that argument one more time I will scream and the people I'm most annoyed with are the idiot Villa fans who should know better.
This is driving me nuts at the moment especially when a Villa fan phones in and reinforces the argument, I just find myself groaning nooooooooo at the radio, as is Stans constant claim that pretty football isnt all its cracked up to be and Swansea etc... might be better off playing in the style that McLeish has made his name with, and this point is made as if this style of football is succesful. Its not for f#cks sake!! The only pundit Ive heard talk much sense about the Villa is Ian Danter and he's a nose.
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Keegan said on saturday night that it was the most inept performance by a home side since they've been covering football on ESPN.He went on to say that the fans deserve far better and that we'd take losing if we'd seen our players give it a real go.Pretty damning, but I thought he was spot on, in fact at this moment in time i'd take Keegan's kamikaze style of football over the non event which is McLeish.The fact he came from Blues really doesn't bother me.As a bloke i've always thought he came across well as a decent fella and he made all the right noises when he took the job, but against Spurs and Man Utd he raised the white flag.To get a side which consists of Albrighton,Agbonlahor,Jenas,Bannan and Bent playing negative football is quite an achievment.
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It seems to me too many are pinning their hopes on bannan and to be honest i dont think hes going to cut it at this level-couldnt get into the leeds team on loan last season and he has done little to suggest to me he can hold down a 1st team place at villa.
I believe gardner and clark will be top top players in the coming years but cant say the same about bannan or albrighton.
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I think the defence get unfairly maligned at times. Agreed they're not the best footballers in the world but they do the defensive ugly side pretty well. All are prepared to throw their bodies in the way for the team and our defensive record is improved this season.
The problems lie in a lack of movement and poor quality in midfield. None of them are prepared to take the ball off the back four and take responsibility. Houllier made that a cornerstone of the way he wanted the team to play and we kept the ball much better as a result.
Confidence is also key of course and most of the players, particularly the younger ones, look like they don't want the ball at the moment - which is why I couldn't understand why Petrov didn't start on Sat.
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It seems to me too many are pinning their hopes on bannan and to be honest i dont think hes going to cut it at this level-couldnt get into the leeds team on loan last season and he has done little to suggest to me he can hold down a 1st team place at villa.
I believe gardner and clark will be top top players in the coming years but cant say the same about bannan or albrighton.
I found it strange that McCleish did'nt think Bannan was good enough to start against newly promoted Swansea, but played him against Man Utd and he had a poor game by his standards. I think he's a cracking little player who's got the ability to make it. Albrighton seems to be going through a bit of a confidence crisis, but again he's good enough to overcome it.
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Its just so depressing whenever i see another game
last night both Fulham and 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' you could see the formation, you could see their style of play and the game ebbed and flowed backwards and forwards and although not the best game in the world it was pleasant on the eye and enjoyable.
Ours is just painful to watch
I was asked if this is the worst i have seen us play and i have to admit it is
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I think the defence get unfairly maligned at times. ...The problems lie in a lack of movement and poor quality in midfield. None of them are prepared to take the ball off the back four and take responsibility ... which is why I couldn't understand why Petrov didn't start on Sat.
Agree with you about Petrov on Saturday but the rest I think is wrong.
My 'take' is that our potential potency in the MF is being negated by crap defending: not the "ugly" stuff as you say but in ball-distribution and player positioning. It means the MF are either cut out of the game (by the long hoof) or spending too much time covering for their defensive colleagues.
The team needs a new back four, frankly; one in which Clark is a fixture and in which we have dependable FB who can both attack and defend.
When we get to the end of the various short-term loan periods in January, and with Lichaj fit again, the manager should be bold and play some of these young assets; trade on their enthusiasm, fitness and association with the club to get the extra performance required; maybe retaining Dunne alongside Clark as the experienced player.
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The only player that comes to collect off the back 4 is Bannan - he then jinks about like a girl either passes it 10 yards to someone else or punts it out wide over 60 yards to no one in particular
God the more i write the more i realise just how shit we really are :'(
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My observation on Fulham really was to point out that Villa man for man have better players but no system.
Yep. Fulham are also a prime example of a team with less resources than us, and perhaps, overall, lower quality in terms of the whole squad, but they have a manager who can work with that and put something decent together.
Said it time and time again - McLeish hasn't been backed by the owners in terms of transfer funds, and he hasn't been in the job long, so can always plead that it's early days still, but fundamentally he is not a manager who has the ability or the knowledge to take us forward. There are managers out there working with far, far less than McLeish has at his disposal. It was my major concern about him when he was appointed, and remains so now.
I genuinely believe that we've seen the best of McLeish: sitting in 8th/9th earlier this season. I'm not sure we'll be that high again.
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It seems to me too many are pinning their hopes on bannan and to be honest i dont think hes going to cut it at this level-couldnt get into the leeds team on loan last season and he has done little to suggest to me he can hold down a 1st team place at villa.
I believe gardner and clark will be top top players in the coming years but cant say the same about bannan or albrighton.
Have to agree with you Eastie
And talk of selling Bent for 25 million - To who exactly?
The only english teams would be Arsenal (Wenger has said he's not going to spend in January) or Newcastle, so Bent is going nowhere
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It seems to me too many are pinning their hopes on bannan and to be honest i dont think hes going to cut it at this level-couldnt get into the leeds team on loan last season and he has done little to suggest to me he can hold down a 1st team place at villa.
I believe gardner and clark will be top top players in the coming years but cant say the same about bannan or albrighton.
Have to agree with you Eastie
And talk of selling Bent for 25 million - To who exactly?
The only english teams would be Arsenal (Wenger has said he's not going to spend in January) or Newcastle, so Bent is going nowhere
Funny you should mention that. I caught a further snippet of Talksport last night (ferrying children around so heard odd bits and pieces on the radio), and he mentioned a rumour concerning Bent to Arsenal in January.
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It seems to me too many are pinning their hopes on bannan and to be honest i dont think hes going to cut it at this level-couldnt get into the leeds team on loan last season and he has done little to suggest to me he can hold down a 1st team place at villa.
I believe gardner and clark will be top top players in the coming years but cant say the same about bannan or albrighton.
Have to agree with you Eastie
And talk of selling Bent for 25 million - To who exactly?
The only english teams would be Arsenal (Wenger has said he's not going to spend in January) or Newcastle, so Bent is going nowhere
Funny you should mention that. I caught a further snippet of Talksport last night (ferrying children around so heard odd bits and pieces on the radio), and he mentioned a rumour concerning Bent to Arsenal in January.
Started by Talkshite no doubt - trying to create a story.
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It seems to me too many are pinning their hopes on bannan and to be honest i dont think hes going to cut it at this level-couldnt get into the leeds team on loan last season and he has done little to suggest to me he can hold down a 1st team place at villa.
I believe gardner and clark will be top top players in the coming years but cant say the same about bannan or albrighton.
Have to agree with you Eastie
And talk of selling Bent for 25 million - To who exactly?
The only english teams would be Arsenal (Wenger has said he's not going to spend in January) or Newcastle, so Bent is going nowhere
Funny you should mention that. I caught a further snippet of Talksport last night (ferrying children around so heard odd bits and pieces on the radio), and he mentioned a rumour concerning Bent to Arsenal in January.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/8932365/Arsenals-Arsene-Wenger-rules-out-window-shopping-despite-misfiring-Maroaune-Chamakh.html
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Hmmm... I've no doubt that Stan has his heart in the right place when it comes to his thoughts on Villa but I don't think selling one of the few class acts we have is the best way to rebuild the team.
The more I think about it, the more I think that the players GH had targeted to move on need to leave before we get anywhere.
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Sell Bent!!??? Why because the manager is dire and cannot bring him into the game. Do me a favour......lets get rid of the problem and thats AM.
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Hmmm... I've no doubt that Stan has his heart in the right place when it comes to his thoughts on Villa but I don't think selling one of the few class acts we have is the best way to rebuild the team.
The more I think about it, the more I think that the players GH had targeted to move on need to leave before we get anywhere.
Totally agree - GH had been around enough to know when there are bad eggs in the camp and he clearly had targetted the likes of Dunne, Collins and Warnock
What amazes me is like for like we have indivually much better players than he had at the Blues and although their football was atrocious to watch (from my Blues supporting mates) they still had a method of play
Our is just a total shambles - the analogy is used often in football talk but it really does look like a pub team that just meets up an hour before a game
The arguments with players in the breaks on Saturday over what and where they should be playing was unbelievable - if the players, as some suggest, are not doing what they are told or expected then drop the fuckers - i and i am sure others would have more respect for him if he taught them a lesson. The first thought when he came was this perceived discilplinarian manager - yet the players seem to not respond to him at all
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The more I think about it, the more I think that the players GH had targeted to move on need to leave before we get anywhere.
Despite all his (mostly PR related) gaffes and faults, Houllier had the right idea and was, I believe, taking us in a good direction. I think his intention was to ship out a lot of the hoofers and loafers and bring in some more proper footballers (funds allowing) People who write his reign off as as disaster are well wide of the mark in my view, and the football, whilst not perfect, was way better to watch than this sub-MON negative anti-football we're having to endure now. It really was bad luck when his ticker played up again.
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The more I think about it, the more I think that the players GH had targeted to move on need to leave before we get anywhere.
Despite all his (mostly PR related) gaffes and faults, Houllier had the right idea and was, I believe, taking us in a good direction. I think his intention was to ship out a lot of the hoofers and loafers and bring in some more proper footballers (funds allowing) People who write his reign off as as disaster are well wide of the mark in my view, and the football, whilst not perfect, was way better to watch than this sub-MON negative anti-football we're having to endure now. It really was bad luck when his ticker played up again.
Agree intirely
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I think the defence get unfairly maligned at times. ...The problems lie in a lack of movement and poor quality in midfield. None of them are prepared to take the ball off the back four and take responsibility ... which is why I couldn't understand why Petrov didn't start on Sat.
Agree with you about Petrov on Saturday but the rest I think is wrong.
My 'take' is that our potential potency in the MF is being negated by crap defending: not the "ugly" stuff as you say but in ball-distribution and player positioning. It means the MF are either cut out of the game (by the long hoof) or spending too much time covering for their defensive colleagues.
The team needs a new back four, frankly; one in which Clark is a fixture and in which we have dependable FB who can both attack and defend.
When we get to the end of the various short-term loan periods in January, and with Lichaj fit again, the manager should be bold and play some of these young assets; trade on their enthusiasm, fitness and association with the club to get the extra performance required; maybe retaining Dunne alongside Clark as the experienced player.
A defender is stuck between a rock and a hard place if he has the ball and no-one is within thirty yards of him.
I'm not excusing the hoof which is symptomatic of Collins in particular, but the longer you are forced to hit it, the less likely it is to reach its target. The midfiled are not working hard enough to create the space to move the ball around the pitch.
I can only assume that McLeishwants the ball in the opposition half as quickly as possible and play the percentages. We don't have those players (other than Heskey) whcih means we keep giving it back.
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Its just so depressing whenever i see another game
last night both Fulham and 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' you could see the formation, you could see their style of play and the game ebbed and flowed backwards and forwards and although not the best game in the world it was pleasant on the eye and enjoyable.
Ours is just painful to watch
I was asked if this is the worst i have seen us play and i have to admit it is
I've been saying that for years, we're a sight for sore eyes, no structure, formation, tactics, it's all so bloody backward. It's hard to imagine now but in the last few games under GH/GMc we scored goals that led from a 16, 17 and 19 pass build up. We don't even want the ball now. The Spurs game and the first half against Man Utd were indeed, as somebody earlier mentioned, a Villa team waving a big white flag.
There's a complete lack of confidence in the team, nobody wants the ball, nobody moves to receive it and the worst thing is, I'm really struggling to see how it's all going to be fixed.
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I think the defence get unfairly maligned at times. ...The problems lie in a lack of movement and poor quality in midfield. None of them are prepared to take the ball off the back four and take responsibility ... which is why I couldn't understand why Petrov didn't start on Sat.
Agree with you about Petrov on Saturday but the rest I think is wrong.
My 'take' is that our potential potency in the MF is being negated by crap defending: not the "ugly" stuff as you say but in ball-distribution and player positioning. It means the MF are either cut out of the game (by the long hoof) or spending too much time covering for their defensive colleagues.
The team needs a new back four, frankly; one in which Clark is a fixture and in which we have dependable FB who can both attack and defend.
When we get to the end of the various short-term loan periods in January, and with Lichaj fit again, the manager should be bold and play some of these young assets; trade on their enthusiasm, fitness and association with the club to get the extra performance required; maybe retaining Dunne alongside Clark as the experienced player.
I think the defence get unfairly maligned at times. Agreed they're not the best footballers in the world but they do the defensive ugly side pretty well. All are prepared to throw their bodies in the way for the team and our defensive record is improved this season.
The problems lie in a lack of movement and poor quality in midfield. None of them are prepared to take the ball off the back four and take responsibility. Houllier made that a cornerstone of the way he wanted the team to play and we kept the ball much better as a result.
Confidence is also key of course and most of the players, particularly the younger ones, look like they don't want the ball at the moment - which is why I couldn't understand why Petrov didn't start on Sat.
I sort of agree with that. Nobody can deny McLeish has a 'safety first' attitude, so with a defence that seems so fragile the midfield is quite restricted, which leaves our biggest asset, Darren Bent, isolated. If we can spend in January, I'd be looking for a DCM and CB who can marshall those sections of the pitch and organise our side. The hope being that that then gives the platform for the likes of Gabby, Bannan, Albrighton and N'Zogbia to play 5-10 yards further forward.
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with the euros in the summer if i was darren bent id be seriously thinking about asking for a move - the attractions that leds to his signing for the club seem to be all gone and he is left scrapping for titbits.
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During the first half Saturday, Warnock sold the man closing him down a nice dummy and opened up a bit of space down the left flank. Looking up the pitch you saw Gabby running away from him at the speed of light (not knocking him, that's most likely what he's told to do) and not another Villa player within 40 yards to pass to.
It was us under McLeish in a nutshell, the only option Warnock had was to belt it up the line and he couldn't even manage that, spooning it out of play.
What made me even more angry was that the incident had made feel sympathy for that useless prick Warnock.
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During the first half Saturday, Warnock sold the man closing him down a nice dummy and opened up a bit of space down the left flank. Looking up the pitch you saw Gabby running away from him at the speed of light (not knocking him, that's most likely what he's told to do) and not another Villa player within 40 yards to pass to.
It was us under McLeish in a nutshell, the only option Warnock had was to belt it up the line and he couldn't even manage that, spooning it out of play.
What made me even more angry was that the incident had made feel sympathy for that useless prick Warnock.
The aimless booting up field is the most spirit sapping thing about where we are today.
I found myself on Saturday wincing every time we had the ball, pretty much, because I just *knew* it was going to happen
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For all those questioning where Bent would go, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Sunderland came back for him.
Their form has been shocking since he left, a new big name manager and renewed ambition and it might tempt him.
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Nah, the crowd decided they hated him the minute he left, not much chance of that.
Newcastle, maybe. Also, he was apparently keen on a move from Sunderland to a Turkish club before we came in for him.
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During the first half Saturday, Warnock sold the man closing him down a nice dummy and opened up a bit of space down the left flank. Looking up the pitch you saw Gabby running away from him at the speed of light (not knocking him, that's most likely what he's told to do) and not another Villa player within 40 yards to pass to.
It was us under McLeish in a nutshell, the only option Warnock had was to belt it up the line and he couldn't even manage that, spooning it out of play.
What made me even more angry was that the incident had made feel sympathy for that useless prick Warnock.
The aimless booting up field is the most spirit sapping thing about where we are today.
I found myself on Saturday wincing every time we had the ball, pretty much, because I just *knew* it was going to happen
It made me think back to a quote from Andy Gray I think it was, about Billy McNeill's time as manager, something like "When you got the ball and looked up to pass, all you saw were backsides disappearing up the pitch
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Nah, the crowd decided they hated him the minute he left, not much chance of that.
Newcastle, maybe. Also, he was apparently keen on a move from Sunderland to a Turkish club before we came in for him.
Crowds always behave like that. They'd piss themselves if they bought him back, the prodigal son returns, proves we're bigger than Villa etc..
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That Mark Saggers on there is a total tit. I remember around April last year he had us getting relegated and last night he was on his high horse once again about Villa fans and their "ridiculous expectations." When Stan then mentioned why wasn't he having a go at Everton fans for the same reasons, he moved quiet and quickly moved on.
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Stan made one interesting point that had some merit. Said Bent is a luxury we are not presently utilising. Would probably be better off if we sold him for £25m, and spent the money on two good attacking fullbacks, or two good midfielders. Difficult to disagree, in my opinion.
True but then we'd be back to square one, creating all these chances but no one really to finish especially if Gabby loses form.
Bent is absoulutely the right striker for us but at the wrong time, MON should've signed him at some point, it still amazes me he didn't sign him or Defoe who we were strongly linked with at one stage.
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Sell Bent!!??? Why because the manager is dire and cannot bring him into the game. Do me a favour......lets get rid of the problem and thats AM.
The manager sells Bent and then he will buy people like Guthrie . I couldnt trust with the money .
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The more I think about it, the more I think that the players GH had targeted to move on need to leave before we get anywhere.
Despite all his (mostly PR related) gaffes and faults, Houllier had the right idea and was, I believe, taking us in a good direction. I think his intention was to ship out a lot of the hoofers and loafers and bring in some more proper footballers (funds allowing) People who write his reign off as as disaster are well wide of the mark in my view, and the football, whilst not perfect, was way better to watch than this sub-MON negative anti-football we're having to endure now. It really was bad luck when his ticker played up again.
The Villa v Manure game from last season seems light years away .
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My observation on Fulham really was to point out that Villa man for man have better players but no system. The most exited i got against United was when Dunne went on a run, i think even he was pissed off with the lack of any forward movement, we can pick on individual players but collectively the team should be playing well above the performances they are presenting us with and for that the buck stops with the manager. I cannot see AM turning this around my only worry is that Lerner will leave it too late for us to get out of the mess.
I think we have better individuals throughout our team than Newcastle aswell but you can see Pardew has worked very hard on team shape with them during the summer and he's added quality in Cabaye.
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Martin Jol would have done a job for us
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My observation on Fulham really was to point out that Villa man for man have better players but no system. The most exited i got against United was when Dunne went on a run, i think even he was pissed off with the lack of any forward movement, we can pick on individual players but collectively the team should be playing well above the performances they are presenting us with and for that the buck stops with the manager. I cannot see AM turning this around my only worry is that Lerner will leave it too late for us to get out of the mess.
I think we have better individuals throughout our team than Newcastle aswell but you can see Pardew has worked very hard on team shape with them during the summer and he's added quality in Cabaye.
Cabaye and Tiote in the middle is a fantastic pairing.
What is impressive about Newcastle is that they don't really have that much up front. Demba Ba is half decent, but after him, it's Leon Best, Peter Lovenkrands and Shola Ameobi.
Pardew has them playing some decent stuff, too.
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My observation on Fulham really was to point out that Villa man for man have better players but no system. The most exited i got against United was when Dunne went on a run, i think even he was pissed off with the lack of any forward movement, we can pick on individual players but collectively the team should be playing well above the performances they are presenting us with and for that the buck stops with the manager. I cannot see AM turning this around my only worry is that Lerner will leave it too late for us to get out of the mess.
I think we have better individuals throughout our team than Newcastle aswell but you can see Pardew has worked very hard on team shape with them during the summer and he's added quality in Cabaye.
I think people are getting carried away with Newcastle. They do look a decent enough outfit, but had a pretty easy start. 7th is the best they'll do and even then I'd guess points wise they would be closer to 8th than 6th.
As for us, what I think we need is a defensive shake up. AM has swapped players around the front 6, but tried to leave a settled defence as much as possible behind them. Clark and Cuellar to come in somewhere for me.
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I think it's more they're having a go.
They drew 2-2 at Spurs, granted that was at home and not WHL but it was still a very good watch.
They went to OT and got a 1-1 and even though Chelsea turned them over, Luiz should've walked early on and they hit the post I think 4 times in that game.
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I think it's more they're having a go.
They drew 2-2 at Spurs, granted that was at home and not WHL but it was still a very good watch.
They went to OT and got a 1-1 and even though Chelsea turned them over, Luiz should've walked early on and they hit the post I think 4 times in that game.
I think team spirit and direction is what places them apart from us. They may falter, but considering what they have endured they seem to be taking steps in the right direction now.
Villa have just flatlined.
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I think it's more they're having a go.
They drew 2-2 at Spurs, granted that was at home and not WHL but it was still a very good watch.
They went to OT and got a 1-1 and even though Chelsea turned them over, Luiz should've walked early on and they hit the post I think 4 times in that game.
Yes, that's the point with Newcastle, very much so. And on the Chelsea game, you're right - the ref makes the right call on Luiz and it could have been different. But even losing 3-0 (a flattering scoreline) Newcastle hit the woodwork 3/4 times and their fans go home feeling reasonably positive, still.
Not getting carried away with Newcastle, but they're giving the top sides a game and beating those around them. They have a limited squad but they're making it work. 7th is the best they can hope for, agreed, but even so - I'd take 7th if offered now. I'd take 10th if offered now, to be honest. I'd even take 12th!
They may find things tougher now Taylor is out for the season - Coloccini's injured too, not sure how long for. But they've made a good start and impressed me. Certainly performed way above expectation.
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The more I think about it, the more I think that the players GH had targeted to move on need to leave before we get anywhere.
Despite all his (mostly PR related) gaffes and faults, Houllier had the right idea and was, I believe, taking us in a good direction. I think his intention was to ship out a lot of the hoofers and loafers and bring in some more proper footballers (funds allowing) People who write his reign off as as disaster are well wide of the mark in my view, and the football, whilst not perfect, was way better to watch than this sub-MON negative anti-football we're having to endure now. It really was bad luck when his ticker played up again.
The Villa v Manure game from last season seems light years away .
Yeah, and last year we went into the game with Hogg and Bannan as a CMF pairing; no sign of nerves and hoof-it then.
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I think it's more they're having a go.
They drew 2-2 at Spurs, granted that was at home and not WHL but it was still a very good watch.
They went to OT and got a 1-1 and even though Chelsea turned them over, Luiz should've walked early on and they hit the post I think 4 times in that game.
I think team spirit and direction is what places them apart from us. They may falter, but considering what they have endured they seem to be taking steps in the right direction now.
Villa have just flatlined.
Yes, good point. McMinge appears not have created the sort of "team spirit and direction" that you refer to at Newcastle and that almost saved the Bluenoses last season.
I have to say, I get the impression that the likes of Collins, Dunne and Warnock are back to their "Billy-big-bollox" and "you can't drop me" mindset; which is what GHou was targeting last season as a sort of team cancer.
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I have to say, I get the impression that the likes of Collins, Dunne and Warnock are back to their "Billy-big-bollox" and "you can't drop me" mindset; which is what GHou was targeting last season as a sort of team cancer.
According to Richard Dunne-his team talks were behind our survival last season. Not the fact Bent (GH's signing) scored the goals.
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I'd want that twat out of the door before even McLeish.
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The more I think about it, the more I think that the players GH had targeted to move on need to leave before we get anywhere.
Despite all his (mostly PR related) gaffes and faults, Houllier had the right idea and was, I believe, taking us in a good direction. I think his intention was to ship out a lot of the hoofers and loafers and bring in some more proper footballers (funds allowing) People who write his reign off as as disaster are well wide of the mark in my view, and the football, whilst not perfect, was way better to watch than this sub-MON negative anti-football we're having to endure now. It really was bad luck when his ticker played up again.
The Villa v Manure game from last season seems light years away .
10 bloody minutes. We'd played so, so well for most the previous 80. How much confidence was in that team at that point. We played so really open stuff. Where has that all gone? That's why I wanted GH to stay (health permitting). He is an arrogant cock, and yes certain players would have gone, but he'd have replaced them with the type of players that wouldn't make your neck hurt after 90 minutes.
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The more I think about it, the more I think that the players GH had targeted to move on need to leave before we get anywhere.
Despite all his (mostly PR related) gaffes and faults, Houllier had the right idea and was, I believe, taking us in a good direction. I think his intention was to ship out a lot of the hoofers and loafers and bring in some more proper footballers (funds allowing) People who write his reign off as as disaster are well wide of the mark in my view, and the football, whilst not perfect, was way better to watch than this sub-MON negative anti-football we're having to endure now. It really was bad luck when his ticker played up again.
The Villa v Manure game from last season seems light years away .
10 bloody minutes. We'd played so, so well for most the previous 80. How much confidence was in that team at that point. We played so really open stuff. Where has that all gone? That's why I wanted GH to stay (health permitting). He is an arrogant cock, and yes certain players would have gone, but he'd have replaced them with the type of players that wouldn't make your neck hurt after 90 minutes.
The most stupid thing is we went through all that pain and the embarassments when he'd put his foot in it, but slowly we were showing signs of modernising.
His health couldn't be helped, but what do we do then? Go right back to the middle fucking ages with this horrid hoofball we play.
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The more I think about it, the more I think that the players GH had targeted to move on need to leave before we get anywhere.
Despite all his (mostly PR related) gaffes and faults, Houllier had the right idea and was, I believe, taking us in a good direction. I think his intention was to ship out a lot of the hoofers and loafers and bring in some more proper footballers (funds allowing) People who write his reign off as as disaster are well wide of the mark in my view, and the football, whilst not perfect, was way better to watch than this sub-MON negative anti-football we're having to endure now. It really was bad luck when his ticker played up again.
The Villa v Manure game from last season seems light years away .
10 bloody minutes. We'd played so, so well for most the previous 80. How much confidence was in that team at that point. We played so really open stuff. Where has that all gone? That's why I wanted GH to stay (health permitting). He is an arrogant cock, and yes certain players would have gone, but he'd have replaced them with the type of players that wouldn't make your neck hurt after 90 minutes.
The most stupid thing is we went through all that pain and the embarassments when he'd put his foot in it, but slowly we were showing signs of modernising.
His health couldn't be helped, but what do we do then? Go right back to the middle fucking ages with this horrid hoofball we play.
when people criticise the likes of Makoun, I have every confidence that had GH still been here he'd have signed a Cabaye or some other tough bastard to protect the midfield so Makoun can link the play between defence and attack. We didn't have the players to help Makoun, and then AM gave up on him. I wanted to see the end result to GH's work. The man has been successful doing it his way throughout his career. Yeh, so what some players hated him. Clearly he didn't give a shit. I want some of that down at VP right now.
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Cabaye was due to come to us in the summer if GH had stayed.
AM didn't so much as give up on Markoun as not give him a chance.
I agree re trouble making players. That's another thing Houllier was more than likely correct about.
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Paulie, GH spoke to Lorik Cana's agent in Paris last January.
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I never had a problem with Houllier as he was up against it from the start, trying to change our play from the dark ages. I was hoping he would have stuck around to take an upstairs role with a promising deputy brought in but then the club lost their mind and here we are.
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Again, I'll stress that I want AM to succeed. But if he thought he was up against it to begin with his style of play is alienating those like me who are (still) willing to give him a chance. I need to see green shoots that suggest that he is instilling a belief in the squad, that he wants to play an attractive style, and that the players will give him everything and more. I don't at this moment see evidence of any of that.
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Isn't Cabaye the more attacking mid at Newcastle and Tiote (now there is a player we should have signed!) the defensive one? Cana would definitely help our midfield get tougher though. Maybe a bit too tough by his disciplinary record...
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Again, I'll stress that I want AM to succeed. But if he thought he was up against it to begin with his style of play is alienating those like me who are (still) willing to give him a chance. I need to see green shoots that suggest that he is instilling a belief in the squad, that he wants to play an attractive style, and that the players will give him everything and more. I don't at this moment see evidence of any of that.
I too wanted him to succeed. He's the Villa manager, I want all of them to succeed. When he took over, I thought I'd give him a chance, so long as he didn't revert to type.
Now, 14 games in, we're playing exactly like Blues, and I don't want to go and watch that anti-football shit. He is doing the absolute worse thing he possibly could, and it is going to alienate a lot of people who might have given him more time.
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Isn't Cabaye the more attacking mid at Newcastle and Tiote (now there is a player we should have signed!) the defensive one? Cana would definitely help our midfield get tougher though. Maybe a bit too tough by his disciplinary record...
I'm not a complete advocate to the "we need a nasty bastard" school of thinking. My belief is that if 11 players are pulling in the same direction and have a common understanding of the tactics then there are no holes that require meaty challenge by one player. The tone is set by everyone. Right now, we have big gaps between our midfield and forwards and our midfield and defence that get exposed too easily. Add to that we keep giving the ball to opposition PL players. Not a good combo.
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Again, I'll stress that I want AM to succeed. But if he thought he was up against it to begin with his style of play is alienating those like me who are (still) willing to give him a chance. I need to see green shoots that suggest that he is instilling a belief in the squad, that he wants to play an attractive style, and that the players will give him everything and more. I don't at this moment see evidence of any of that.
All of us want AM to succeed for Aston Villa. We are not this angry mob who are anti McLeish, who only attend games with the sole agenda of abusing AM. Fuck anybody who believes that shit. Simply put, the product on the pitch is depressing at the moment and we are reacting to it.
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Again, I'll stress that I want AM to succeed. But if he thought he was up against it to begin with his style of play is alienating those like me who are (still) willing to give him a chance. I need to see green shoots that suggest that he is instilling a belief in the squad, that he wants to play an attractive style, and that the players will give him everything and more. I don't at this moment see evidence of any of that.
I too wanted him to succeed. He's the Villa manager, I want all of them to succeed. When he took over, I thought I'd give him a chance, so long as he didn't revert to type.
......"Now, 14 games in, we're playing exactly like Blues,......"
Did you realise how close you are to the truth?
Blues 2010-11 P14 W3 D7 L4 F15 A17
Villa 2011-12 P14 W3 D7 L4 F16 A18
Scary deja vu stuff.
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Again, I'll stress that I want AM to succeed. But if he thought he was up against it to begin with his style of play is alienating those like me who are (still) willing to give him a chance. I need to see green shoots that suggest that he is instilling a belief in the squad, that he wants to play an attractive style, and that the players will give him everything and more. I don't at this moment see evidence of any of that.
I too wanted him to succeed. He's the Villa manager, I want all of them to succeed. When he took over, I thought I'd give him a chance, so long as he didn't revert to type.
Now, 14 games in, we're playing exactly like Blues, and I don't want to go and watch that anti-football shit. He is doing the absolute worse thing he possibly could, and it is going to alienate a lot of people who might have given him more time.
When I think of type with him, what I was expecting was a tight defence and every player being competitive and hard working, with a real strong team mentality. Not overly pretty on the eye, with most of our victories being 1-0 and quite a few bore draws thrown in. Think of George Graham's Arsenal as the blueprint.
Whilst a lot on here would be unhappy with that, I could have lived with it while we got the finances back in order. But we haven't seen that. It's been mainly last man interceptions and some great saves by Given that have lead to whatever defensive strength we have. The midfield lacks shape with the creative players being poor.
The good news is that despite all this we're still top half, so the panic button can be left alone for now. I'm of the hope that AM's ideas and emphasis are taking time to get through and we'll improve from here on in.
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I don't think Cabeye's overtly defensive or attacking, he's just a very good all-round midfielder who gets about the pitch, and uses the ball very simply and cleverly (sighs)...
I think he's probably had to take on slightly more defensive duties since Tiote has been out, but intelligent footballers can cope with that tweak in tactics, more often than not.
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Again, I'll stress that I want AM to succeed. But if he thought he was up against it to begin with his style of play is alienating those like me who are (still) willing to give him a chance. I need to see green shoots that suggest that he is instilling a belief in the squad, that he wants to play an attractive style, and that the players will give him everything and more. I don't at this moment see evidence of any of that.
I too wanted him to succeed. He's the Villa manager, I want all of them to succeed. When he took over, I thought I'd give him a chance, so long as he didn't revert to type.
Now, 14 games in, we're playing exactly like Blues, and I don't want to go and watch that anti-football shit. He is doing the absolute worse thing he possibly could, and it is going to alienate a lot of people who might have given him more time.
When I think of type with him, what I was expecting was a tight defence and every player being competitive and hard working, with a real strong team mentality. Not overly pretty on the eye, with most of our victories being 1-0 and quite a few bore draws thrown in. Think of George Graham's Arsenal as the blueprint.
Whilst a lot on here would be unhappy with that, I could have lived with it while we got the finances back in order. But we haven't seen that. It's been mainly last man interceptions and some great saves by Given that have lead to whatever defensive strength we have. The midfield lacks shape with the creative players being poor.
The good news is that despite all this we're still top half, so the panic button can be left alone for now. I'm of the hope that AM's ideas and emphasis are taking time to get through and we'll improve from here on in.
John, I said something similar to your first couple of sentences a week or so back. I can accept being bored to victory. I just hate being bored to 0-0 draws and defeats. The thing about being in the top half is now sitting on the thinnest piece of ice imaginable. One more loss and we could just as easily plummet to just above the relegation zone. The gap between us and the big pack above us is now a chasm and unless we get going soon we'll be discussing our ambitions for this season in the same breath as Blackburn, Sunderland, Norwich, QPR, Swansea etc.
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John, I said something similar to your first couple of sentences a week or so back. I can accept being bored to victory. I just hate being bored to 0-0 draws and defeats. The thing about being in the top half is now sitting on the thinnest piece of ice imaginable. One more loss and we could just as easily plummet to just above the relegation zone. The gap between us and the big pack above us is now a chasm and unless we get going soon we'll be discussing our ambitions for this season in the same breath as Blackburn, Sunderland, Norwich, QPR, Swansea etc.
The truthful comparison to the 'big 6' is that our ambitions aren't that much different to those sides - and that's all down to money!
I agree that the mid table pack we're in is very tight and will continue to be so until May, but that works both ways with any improvement from us, which player-wise we are capable of, meaning we can shoot back up again to the giddy heights of 7th or 8th.
I'm afraid that's our lot in life for 2011/2012.
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I think it's more they're having a go.
They drew 2-2 at Spurs, granted that was at home and not WHL but it was still a very good watch.
They went to OT and got a 1-1 and even though Chelsea turned them over, Luiz should've walked early on and they hit the post I think 4 times in that game.
I think team spirit and direction is what places them apart from us. They may falter, but considering what they have endured they seem to be taking steps in the right direction now.
Villa have just flatlined.
Yes, good point. McMinge appears not have created the sort of "team spirit and direction" that you refer to at Newcastle and that almost saved the Bluenoses last season.
I have to say, I get the impression that the likes of Collins, Dunne and Warnock are back to their "Billy-big-bollox" and "you can't drop me" mindset; which is what GHou was targeting last season as a sort of team cancer.
Your last is a very valid point. Houllier got all the stick from fans, players and the press for trying to break the non-rotational tactic of MON. Sadly, most only now appreciate what he was striving to do.
The midfield pack does seem to get shuffled regularly under the current manager, whilst the back line is a virtual given for each game.
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Funny how when GH is remembered it is the Msnu gsme that gets mentioned, not Liverpool or Msn City away which ere easily as bad as anything we have seen this season.
Results improved last season when he stopped sulking, restored Dunne and Collins to the defence and we started playing to our strengths again by utilising two players who are no longer with us. They improved even more when he was taken ill and wasn't influencing things.
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Funny how when GH is remembered it is the Msnu gsme that gets mentioned, not Liverpool or Msn City away which ere easily as bad as anything we have seen this season.
Or the Wolves game after which I was as angry as I think I've ever been at a Villa performance.
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I'm not convinced the defence is fine. The goals against column doesn't look too bad, I agree, but we looked okay in the opening games against Fulham, Blackburn, Wigan, QPR. We've really started shipping them in recent weeks. I'm concerned things are beginning to unravel back there and we're starting to decline.
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Funny how when GH is remembered it is the Msnu gsme that gets mentioned, not Liverpool or Msn City away which ere easily as bad as anything we have seen this season.
Results improved last season when he stopped sulking, restored Dunne and Collins to the defence and we started playing to our strengths again by utilising two players who are no longer with us. They improved even more when he was taken ill and wasn't influencing things.
I don't think anyone is making a case for last season being perfect Chris. Yes, without doubt those two games were hideous. Every bit as bad as Spurs this year. However, whether you decide to discount his influence towards the end or not, the philosophy of trying to get the ball down and pass it was in growing in evidence. Losing Young and Downing hasn't helped in the least, but the remaining players shouldn't now be that far back from the end of last season in terms on technique. Additionally, you're right about the influence of the Dunne/Collins partnership. What should also be mentioned is that they were whacking it downfield less then than they are now. We stressed ball retention, and the players were doing it more, and the results started to get better. Credit Houllier, McAllister or whatever, but we shouldn't have regressed this much.
I agree with you that the midfield is the issue. They might not be the issue if the ball was played to feet to them so they could set up more of the attacks as opposed to watching it go over their heads or simply defending when the opposition are running at them.
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I do think there has been some revisionism over GH's time at the club on here lately.
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My grandson has to put in his workbook what he does on the weekend, this is what he wrote for last weekend:
"Went to the Villa, it was so negative"... and he is 7 years old!
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Our problem is that our defenders can only hoof the ball and have next to no composure and our central midfielders are much the same. Herd is a defender playing in midfield, Petrov whilst having compusre is jsut too slow and can not get around the pithc. Delph has sof ar proven to be a libility in that he cant tackle and Bannan whilst having composure and an eye for a pass, is too slow and couldn;t tackly my granny.
So two Central Midfielders are needed ASAP - both whoa re comfortable on the ball, one having a good engien to get up and downa dn the other more defnesive. Cabaye and Tiote are good examples of not having to spend a fortune. Even the Baggies have a better midfield than us.
Makoun could have played th defensive role but McLeish chiose to trade him for Jenas 0 what a great decision that was! Same with L Young and Hutton - waste of time, we could have played Herd at right back and spent the £4m on a midfielder.
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I do think there has been some revisionism over GH's time at the club on here lately.
Generally, one tends to have happier memories of the frying pan when they are in the fire.
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I'm not convinced the defence is fine. The goals against column doesn't look too bad, I agree, but we looked okay in the opening games against Fulham, Blackburn, Wigan, QPR. We've really started shipping them in recent weeks. I'm concerned things are beginning to unravel back there and we're starting to decline.
Although only 1 conceded in the last 2 which suggests that they've settled down again.
I accept that they pay it long too often but a lot of that is players not showing for the ball, lacking the confidence to have it in tight positions. In the end hoofing it is the lesser of two evils compared to being caught in possession on the edge of your own box. I also don't think Given is as quick to see the opportunity to throw it out as Brad was and seems more comfortable launching it.
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My grandson has to put in his workbook what he does on the weekend, this is what he wrote for last weekend:
"Went to the Villa, it was so negative"... and he is 7 years old!
Sadly Randy does not see it that clearly.
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I do think there has been some revisionism over GH's time at the club on here lately.
I don't think there's any revisionism. No-one said he was perfect, and he clearly wasn't, just that he tried to play proper football and do things in the right way on the pitch and the training ground, particularly passing and movement. We improved when he brought in Bent, Walker and Makoun in the January window, all decent signings in my view. The players he was rumoured to have targetted, among them Cabaye, would have taken us further down the route of proper football appropriate to this millennium rather than 30 odd years back in the last one. Judging by the number of goals conceded from set pieces, the reinstatement of Dunne and Collins was hardly his masterstroke, he just had very little alternative.
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I'm not convinced the defence is fine. The goals against column doesn't look too bad, I agree, but we looked okay in the opening games against Fulham, Blackburn, Wigan, QPR. We've really started shipping them in recent weeks. I'm concerned things are beginning to unravel back there and we're starting to decline.
Although only 1 conceded in the last 2 which suggests that they've settled down again.
I accept that they pay it long too often but a lot of that is players not showing for the ball, lacking the confidence to have it in tight positions. In the end hoofing it is the lesser of two evils compared to being caught in possession on the edge of your own box. I also don't think Given is as quick to see the opportunity to throw it out as Brad was and seems more comfortable launching it.
While the defence has improved slightly, the attacking force has dramtically gone worse with 0 goals in 3 games now. There's no balance.
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Or 13 conceded in our last six, an average of two a game. I accept it's entirely how any of us choose to interpret the info - but I'm seeing some fairly soft goals conceded!
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There simply doesn't appear to be any joined up thinking. That is what I find frustrating.
We lurch from MON, to Houllier, to McLeish with no obvious semblance of how we are trying to play.
The kids are all taught pass and move from a young age but the first team has for a number of years been about knocking it long or playing everything in from the wings.
It just doesn't make sense.
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There simply doesn't appear to be any joined up thinking. That is what I find frustrating.
We lurch from MON, to Houllier, to McLeish with no obvious semblance of how we are trying to play.
The kids are all taught pass and move from a young age but the first team has for a number of years been about knocking it long or playing everything in from the wings.
It just doesn't make sense.
These kids are playing the right way all the way through the system, then when they're sent up to the first team they haven't got a scooby what to do with them as they lack the essentials required, which are cheifly being strong, able to clear your lines and older than 25.
The policy of youth is being undermined by the manger being more concerned about covering his arse.
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There simply doesn't appear to be any joined up thinking. That is what I find frustrating.
We lurch from MON, to Houllier, to McLeish with no obvious semblance of how we are trying to play.
The kids are all taught pass and move from a young age but the first team has for a number of years been about knocking it long or playing everything in from the wings.
It just doesn't make sense.
Indeed. Martinez to follow Houllier made some sense, although how successful he'd have been I'm not sure, but McLeish? Odd.
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On the subject of the kids, I would have had more faith in Gerard Houllier developing our youth than I do with Mr McLeish. He's in danger of ruining the whole bloody lot.
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I'm not convinced the defence is fine. The goals against column doesn't look too bad, I agree, but we looked okay in the opening games against Fulham, Blackburn, Wigan, QPR. We've really started shipping them in recent weeks. I'm concerned things are beginning to unravel back there and we're starting to decline.
Although only 1 conceded in the last 2 which suggests that they've settled down again.
I accept that they pay it long too often but a lot of that is players not showing for the ball, lacking the confidence to have it in tight positions. In the end hoofing it is the lesser of two evils compared to being caught in possession on the edge of your own box. I also don't think Given is as quick to see the opportunity to throw it out as Brad was and seems more comfortable launching it.
It isn't just about us hoofing it out to clear the ball, though.
That's also how we seem to build up our few attacks.
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Its a poor version of Small Heath footie from last year, defence not sound or organised, often just desperate, attack as pointed out above is a case of who can get on the end of a long hoof. No bloody idea at all. Time for Eck to go.
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.....
His health couldn't be helped, but what do we do then? Go right back to the middle fucking ages with this horrid hoofball we play.
Calcio Neanderthale is the phrase I think you are looking for.
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I can't believe anyone is looking back on Houllier's time with misty eyes.Yes this season has been in the main shit, yes we're watching negative football but that's no excuse for amnesia.Just to jog your memories.......
Sunderland home
Wolves home
Man City league
Man City the great FA Cup surrender
Liverpool,the love in
By all means credit where credit is due, we did well against Man Utd for 70 minutes, but come on Houllier?????If great football is seeing your team concede nigh on 60 goals in the league and not secure Premiership safety until the 37th game of the season then that dipstick is a genius.
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I can't believe anyone is looking back on Houllier's time with misty eyes.Yes this season has been in the main shit, yes we're watching negative football but that's no excuse for amnesia.Just to jog your memories.......
Sunderland home
Wolves home
Man City league
Man City the great FA Cup surrender
Liverpool,the love in
By all means credit where credit is due, we did well against Man Utd for 70 minutes, but come on Houllier?????If great football is seeing your team concede nigh on 60 goals in the league and not secure Premiership safety until the 37th game of the season then that dipstick is a genius.
I don't think anyone is saying there weren't disasters just as there were some great moments (Man City at home amongst others) - it was that his football philosophy was showing signs of beginning to bear fruit.
We'll never know but given a full close season to prepare, we might have had a side that was at least pleasing on the eye, that went out to win every game and weren't the laughing stock of the league.
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I'm not convinced the defence is fine. The goals against column doesn't look too bad, I agree, but we looked okay in the opening games against Fulham, Blackburn, Wigan, QPR. We've really started shipping them in recent weeks. I'm concerned things are beginning to unravel back there and we're starting to decline.
The avg goals conceded per game is worse than the Bloose over the same period last season. That's why we should be very afraid, particularly since their start was against slightly better oppo.
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Tbh any comparison with SHA last season is a red herring imo.
They were relegated on 39 points which was the highest since 2003.
This season teams will stay up on 35 or 36 points (another 19 draws then!) as I can't see anyway the likes of Bolton, Wigan and Blackburn will get more than that.
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I can't believe anyone is looking back on Houllier's time with misty eyes.Yes this season has been in the main shit, yes we're watching negative football but that's no excuse for amnesia.Just to jog your memories.......
Sunderland home
Wolves home
Man City league
Man City the great FA Cup surrender
Liverpool,the love in
By all means credit where credit is due, we did well against Man Utd for 70 minutes, but come on Houllier?????If great football is seeing your team concede nigh on 60 goals in the league and not secure Premiership safety until the 37th game of the season then that dipstick is a genius.
I don't think anyone is saying there weren't disasters just as there were some great moments (Man City at home amongst others) - it was that his football philosophy was showing signs of beginning to bear fruit.
We'll never know but given a full close season to prepare, we might have had a side that was at least pleasing on the eye, that went out to win every game and weren't the laughing stock of the league.
Two things:-
1. He wouldn't have had a full pre-season as wasn't medically cleared to return in time.
2. We were crap under him, until Randy dug deep and bought us out of trouble. His inability to handle Dunne and Collins, who are not blameless in this either, put us in jeopardy until they made peace. Both would have left had he stayed, as would Ash and Downing, plus probably Gabby. That's a big ask to replace 5 key players with our wages issue.
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I'm not convinced the defence is fine. The goals against column doesn't look too bad, I agree, but we looked okay in the opening games against Fulham, Blackburn, Wigan, QPR. We've really started shipping them in recent weeks. I'm concerned things are beginning to unravel back there and we're starting to decline.
Although only 1 conceded in the last 2 which suggests that they've settled down again.
I accept that they pay it long too often but a lot of that is players not showing for the ball, lacking the confidence to have it in tight positions. In the end hoofing it is the lesser of two evils compared to being caught in possession on the edge of your own box. I also don't think Given is as quick to see the opportunity to throw it out as Brad was and seems more comfortable launching it.
It isn't just about us hoofing it out to clear the ball, though.
That's also how we seem to build up our few attacks.
I won't argue that they back players hit it long, but I will argue that they don't have any other options when they do. That's still down to McLeish to get the team moving properly off the ball, but the 'hoof' as it's now been dubbed is the symptom, not the cause.
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I think Blackburn are poor but they have a decent spine, Robinson, Samba, Hoylett, Yakubu. I also think there are signs of a togetherness there that we lack.
Bolton are struggling but have had the toughest opening fixtures of any side where we had the easiest start. Not sure if they have a lot of quality though.
Wigan are dreadful.
Think it's between those three, the promoted sides and us to be fair. Not sure we can feel confident about it though with our current form.
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We can all re-write history abit to suit an arguement but MON's tenure was not nearly as bad as some make out and let's be frank Houllier was a complete disaster. Took us backwards at as fast a rate as anybody since Billy McNeill (and I include the reign of David O'Fuckwit in that).
We started thinking and talking small as a Club the day MON walked out and we still haven't stopped imo. It'll become a self fulfilling prophacy if we're not careful. Like him or loath him, it seems the MON departure left a vacum that has not been filled at the Club at any level 18 months on.
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I don't think anyone is saying there weren't disasters just as there were some great moments (Man City at home amongst others) - it was that his football philosophy was showing signs of beginning to bear fruit.
Do me a favour, Man City at home - from memory they should have buried us about 3 times over in that match.
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I don't think anyone is saying there weren't disasters just as there were some great moments (Man City at home amongst others) - it was that his football philosophy was showing signs of beginning to bear fruit.
Do me a favour, Man City at home - from memory they should have buried us about 3 times over in that match.
Maybe, but the team spirit and commitment is light years from what we're seeing now...and it was exciting to watch.
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I can't believe anyone is looking back on Houllier's time with misty eyes.Yes this season has been in the main shit, yes we're watching negative football but that's no excuse for amnesia.Just to jog your memories.......
Sunderland home
Wolves home
Man City league
Man City the great FA Cup surrender
Liverpool,the love in
By all means credit where credit is due, we did well against Man Utd for 70 minutes, but come on Houllier?????If great football is seeing your team concede nigh on 60 goals in the league and not secure Premiership safety until the 37th game of the season then that dipstick is a genius.
Houllier was like Guardiola compared to McLeish.
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Strange how to some people saying Houllier had some good ideas that were showing signs of bearing fruit, tried to play proper football, and wasn't a complete disaster = Houllier was a genius. There's nothing like a bit of hyperbole to get your point across I suppose.
As for misty eyed amnesia and re-writing history, I clearly remember us stringing more than three passes together several times, and at least trying to score goals. Not much, but way better than what we have now.
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I think the thing about Houllier is this: it wasn't the results or even the performances that were encouraging. It was his assessment of the playing staff. It took him barely a couple of weeks at VP to spot that Dunne, Collins and Warnock were troublemakers content to stroll along doing what they wanted. The players he put in the team most frequently were the ones who are comfortable with the ball at their feet. It speaks volumes that Clark starred for us last year but is nowhere to be seen now. Sure, Ged needed to find a better balance and his man management skills have always been iffy, but for the first time in ages we were looking at the prospect of continental-style possession football down the Villa.
The revelation by Cabaye that he was due to sign for us is more evidence that Houllier would've shipped in some technical players and dispensed with the old school mob. I was getting quite excited about the summer, until he got ill.
That's what I couldn't fathom about the decision to appoint McLeish. Randy had seemingly decided to go down a different path, and even after Houllier left it looked like he wanted to forge ahead with it - as evidenced by the approach to Martinez. But then did a massive u-turn and brought in an old-fashioned British manager to appease the likes of Dunne and Collins. I can only assume he panicked...
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I do think there has been some revisionism over GH's time at the club on here lately.
understatement of the year.
Houllier's take on man management is to slate players publicly and abdicate himself of all responsibility.
He was horrendous. McLeish is more of a decent sort but he doesnt have Young, Downing and Walker who between the three of them must have created the vast majority of Bent's chances last season.
McLeish's football philosophy is too miserable for words. We are a shambles on and off the pitch
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It took him weeks to find out that player who had been in the PL team of the year was a dud? It really is the day for rewriting history.
Dunne is really good defender, results improved when GH saw sense and put him and Collins back in the side.
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With the brother of a Villa legend (goalkeeper) and one of the greats from the 80's squad yesterday to do with this time of year and stuff, one of which is a good friend haven't seen for a couple of months, shooting the breeze with regards to Villa, point made was Villa fans don't know half the truth as to the promises not kept where MON was concerned, and what forced him out, also said anybody that has any dealings in the game and frequents the Villa training ground and Club area's now, will know just how different the atmosphere and organisation is and how an almost apathetic attitude has taken over.
The phrase used was the club is becoming unglued from the top down and when MON was there, there was always the prospect of something being won.
All about opinion.
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It took him weeks to find out that player who had been in the PL team of the year was a dud? It really is the day for rewriting history.
Dunne is really good defender, results improved when GH saw sense and put him and Collins back in the side.
Dunne is great providing he's on the edge of his own area, and everything is being played in front of him. Ditto Collins. They're heroic, chucking themselves in front of shots and heading away aerial bombardments. But ask them to push up just a bit, or control a back pass and move it on to a teammate along the deck when under a tiny bit of pressure, and they get shown up. Hence the dummy-spitting when Houllier told them to play a different way. To be fair, if they knew they weren't capable of playing that way, I suppose they had little choice but to rebel. The games when they looked better and results improved were, funnily enough, the games where we sat back and allowed the opposition to dictate play more.
It's not their fault, and I guess you could fault Houllier for trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but I'd have liked to see the replacements he'd have brought in...
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That's my regret with Houllier, SamTheMouse. He played his hand too soon last season and probably should have kept Dunne, Collins and Warnock onside until the summer, but the final dozen games saw improved performances (not just because D & C were brought back into the team, they played most of the season between them and we really only left out of the side when they both had injuries and then as punishment for their breach of discipline) and I was quite excited to see who GH would have recruited in the close season.
I don't mind Collins and I can't help liking Dunne but I do think they're both a bit one-dimensional and certainly not worthy of undroppable status.
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Collins is alright in patches, but the sight of him swinging his leg and the ball taking a 40 yard trip into no-mans land is fast becoming my least favourite thing about football these days
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The all new Mellberg hoof.
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I would love a takeover to happen, so we could start to rebuild properly.
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Collins is alright in patches, but the sight of him swinging his leg and the ball taking a 40 yard trip into no-mans land is fast becoming my least favourite thing about football these days
Tell me about it. The thing is, to some extent I sympathise with Chris' view that the defenders lack passing options when they get it. But Dunne and Collins are the elder statesmen of the side, and if they find they're having to go long all the time, they should be bawling and screaming at the young midfielders to provide more movement off the ball. But they don't, they just take the easy option and put their foot through it. To be fair, it's a British disease. By all accounts Capello did his nut with the England lads at first, and had to drill it into them to keep the ball on the deck. That's why I think Houllier's continental connections would have transformed us.
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With the brother of a Villa legend (goalkeeper) and one of the greats from the 80's squad yesterday to do with this time of year and stuff, one of which is a good friend haven't seen for a couple of months, shooting the breeze with regards to Villa, point made was Villa fans don't know half the truth as to the promises not kept where MON was concerned, and what forced him out, also said anybody that has any dealings in the game and frequents the Villa training ground and Club area's now, will know just how different the atmosphere and organisation is and how an almost apathetic attitude has taken over.
The phrase used was the club is becoming unglued from the top down and when MON was there, there was always the prospect of something being won.
All about opinion.
I know we have to treat all "inside" knowledge with caution (and no offence meant VNation) but this doesn't surprise me one bit...
That we will never know what really happened with MON is very galling...
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It took him weeks to find out that player who had been in the PL team of the year was a dud? It really is the day for rewriting history.
Dunne is really good defender, results improved when GH saw sense and put him and Collins back in the side.
Dunne is great providing he's on the edge of his own area, and everything is being played in front of him. Ditto Collins. They're heroic, chucking themselves in front of shots and heading away aerial bombardments. But ask them to push up just a bit, or control a back pass and move it on to a teammate along the deck when under a tiny bit of pressure, and they get shown up. Hence the dummy-spitting when Houllier told them to play a different way. To be fair, if they knew they weren't capable of playing that way, I suppose they had little choice but to rebel. The games when they looked better and results improved were, funnily enough, the games where we sat back and allowed the opposition to dictate play more.
It's not their fault, and I guess you could fault Houllier for trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but I'd have liked to see the replacements he'd have brought in...
Agree with that. They have been great at playing deep and defending aerial balls under MON because of the style of football we played (counter attack). That doesn't make them bad defenders, just limited when playing in a way tat requires them to play the ball out from defence and deal with teams passing their way through a bit of a dodgy midfield. Those are our two biggest problems for me central midfield and the effect it has on the defence.
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Trying to get a centre half to play in a style he's not suited to is as stupid as asking Barry Bannan to act as a target man. Just because Houllier had good ideas about how the game should be played, he must have I've seen it posted often enough, doesn't make him a good manager.
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Dunne and Collins were hugely over-rated in MON's time. The reason they did so well to start with is they had players in front of them like Milner and a pre-breathing through his arse Petrov winning and keeping the ball so the pressure was off them. As soon as that went their flaws were exposed for all to see.
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And Cuellar as a third centre half covering for them.
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Trying to get a centre half to play in a style he's not suited to is as stupid as asking Barry Bannan to act as a target man. Just because Houllier had good ideas about how the game should be played, he must have I've seen it posted often enough, doesn't make him a good manager.
Yep, about as stupid as using Heskey in a midfield position. Oh wait...
You seem to be defending McLeish's anti football alot, which hasn't changed from Blues and Rangers. Do you like us not playing football? Do you even like football in general?
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Dunne and Collins were hugely over-rated in MON's time. The reason they did so well to start with is they had players in front of them like Milner and a pre-breathing through his arse Petrov winning and keeping the ball so the pressure was off them. As soon as that went their flaws were exposed for all to see.
Or, too put it it in a more honest way they were the right type of players for the team and the way we played. In the second half of the season GH realised it, stopped trying to impose a style that didn't suit them and results improved accordingly as we stopped leaking so many soft goals and started scoring them again at the other end.
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Trying to get a centre half to play in a style he's not suited to is as stupid as asking Barry Bannan to act as a target man. Just because Houllier had good ideas about how the game should be played, he must have I've seen it posted often enough, doesn't make him a good manager.
You could say not suited to, but frankly if he's not suited to a bare minimum level of passing the ball out, then he's just not good enough.
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It is foolish to believe AM is equivalent or better than GH. Look at their styles and pedigrees. AM is nowhere near Gerard's level.
GH was a good manager and had a long term plan for the club. I was excited by his signings and playing vision. He wanted to change the culture of the club. I wanted to see us being comfortable and creating chances with the ball.
We now have the middle man McLeish and his fear football at VP, so exciting. Thanks Randy.
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Us v Stoke 2 years ago. Stoke were the worst team I'd ever seen. No ambition, no desire to win, just hoofing it upfield to no-one. (Credit to him, Pulis changed things and they got 2 goals back. Horrible day for Villa).
Us v Spurs and ManU in first half reminded me of that Stoke performance - no desire for the ball; from throw-ins no-one wants it, we hoof the ball up to 2 guys who are not strong in the air (against ManU with 2 of the best aerial defenders in Europe and beyond!). What the f**k are we doing? AM's tactics defy belief! I wouldn't let my under 14s play that way! If we can see why can't.........etc!
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Trying to get a centre half to play in a style he's not suited to is as stupid as asking Barry Bannan to act as a target man. Just because Houllier had good ideas about how the game should be played, he must have I've seen it posted often enough, doesn't make him a good manager.
Yep, about as stupid as using Heskey in a midfield position. Oh wait...
You seem to be defending McLeish's anti football alot, which hasn't changed from Blues and Rangers. Do you like us not playing football? Do you even like football in general?
This is about Houllier you big dope. You really are obsessed, did a big ginger Scotsman steal your girlfriend or something?
Now, I'll explain it to you one more time. Please pay attention because it does get tiresome. I don't believe a third of a season is enough to judge a manager. That won't change just because you keep finding new ways to make the same point.
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Houlier had a plan, a way he wanted the team to play,
i'm not saying it worked every game as it did not, and at times we were really crap, but there was a plan, and the players we had/have did not suit that way of playing so it did look a bit disjointed and worse at times, but at least we knew given a bit of time and a few new players who could hopefully 'fit the bill' we might have been working toward a decent team.
i dont know if Houlier would have seen any sucess, he might have crashed and burned, but i was still hopefull he would build something worth watching,
i havent got that hope with Mcliesh, and thats the biggest problem i have with Villa at the moment
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Dunne and Collins were hugely over-rated in MON's time. The reason they did so well to start with is they had players in front of them like Milner and a pre-breathing through his arse Petrov winning and keeping the ball so the pressure was off them. As soon as that went their flaws were exposed for all to see.
Or, too put it it in a more honest way they were the right type of players for the team and the way we played. In the second half of the season GH realised it, stopped trying to impose a style that didn't suit them and results improved accordingly as we stopped leaking so many soft goals and started scoring them again at the other end.
but once milner had gone we no longer could play that way so GH was looking for a different way.. We can talk about the decline, players leaving, crap managers, but the fundamental thing that buggered us up last season and triggered the present decline was no Milner. He worked his arse off and most of the good things during MON's time went through him unfortunately. Once he went the game was up for that team.
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That doesn't add up though, Greg. Results from January onwards were good, top 6 form if over a full season and the defence was a big part of that.
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Yep the defence were in such sterling form that they managed a whole 3 clean sheets in 19 from Jan 1st - end of season (22 games if you include cup games).
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Trying to get a centre half to play in a style he's not suited to is as stupid as asking Barry Bannan to act as a target man. Just because Houllier had good ideas about how the game should be played, he must have I've seen it posted often enough, doesn't make him a good manager.
Yep, about as stupid as using Heskey in a midfield position. Oh wait...
You seem to be defending McLeish's anti football alot, which hasn't changed from Blues and Rangers. Do you like us not playing football? Do you even like football in general?
This is about Houllier you big dope. You really are obsessed, did a big ginger Scotsman steal your girlfriend or something?
Now, I'll explain it to you one more time. Please pay attention because it does get tiresome. I don't believe a third of a season is enough to judge a manager. That won't change just because you keep finding new ways to make the same point.
Don't throw a hissy fit you clown. Seeing as McLeish is the manager of Aston Villa I'd say discussing him is relevant in a Aston Villa forum. Don't you?
Also Houllier was a good manager. Forget about his positive football for a second. Firstly, he doesn't have relegations, he has superior achievements and left Liverpool with a legacy that won them the Champions League.
In his time at Villa he had no pre season, he had to deal with one of the biggest injury crisis this club has ever faced, could identify the bad apples who were holding us back, got us playing positive football and still managed us 9th after all thanks to his tactics that Gary Mac used.
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That doesn't add up though, Greg. Results from January onwards were good, top 6 form if over a full season and the defence was a big part of that.
Bent and Walker had a huge impact.
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results were good but it wasn't how we used to play by any stretch of the imagination and i didn't feel the defence was back to its old self. To me it was just GH papering over the cracks to survive, so he could really overhaul the squad in the summer. That never came unfortunately and we seem to be very much back at square 1 as far as squad building or finding a style goes.. We probably could have coped with Young going last summer or Downing but Milner was the heart of the team and IMO we were buggered when he left. I reckon MON thought so too especially with no budget to rebuild
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That doesn't add up though, Greg. Results from January onwards were good, top 6 form if over a full season and the defence was a big part of that.
Bent and Walker had a huge impact.
Yes they did, so did Young and Downing but it would have been for nothing if we'd carried on shipping goals like in the first half of the season.
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Houllier was an indifferent manager for us. That squad was better than 9th, he under achieved. Of course his record at other clubs was better and he might have achieved more with us but last season was poor on and off the pitch and he was behind much of it.
In addition Gabby has been our best player this season but Houllier got nothing out of him and pissed him off enough to make him consider his future.
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Don't throw a hissy fit you clown
If you want to be treated with respect stop personalising things. I'm entitled to an opinion, we don't all have to think like you. Can you not just accept that when I say I'm going to give him time that's just what I'm going to do?
Are you that insecure that you can't cope with alternative views?
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Don't throw a hissy fit you clown
If you want to be treated with respect stop personalising things. I'm entitled to an opinion, we don't all have to think like you. Can you not just accept that when I say I'm going to give him time that's just what I'm going to do?
Are you that insecure that you can't cope with alternative views?
Why give him time? It is not going to get any better under AM.
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you could say the same in reverse for bent. Look Chris i think you'd have to be stupid to claim GH was a roaring success but my feeling with him was he was planning to get to the summer, clean the decks, move trouble makers on and go from there. I also felt he had a plan how he wanted us to play even if it rarely materialised on the pitch. Add in the injury list that would have this squad on its kness, i thought there was justification for a certain optimism given his reported transfer targets. His illness obviously put paid to that but frankly i can't see any plan AM is putting forward apart from surviving as best he can and making sure we only lose by a goal or 2 instead of 4 or 5. I really, really do hope we're sitting here in mid-janaury in roughly the same position after a good christmas and you're reminding everyone of this thread and the doom laden talk but i can't see it. Shame because as others have said he does come over as a nice guy.
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Don't throw a hissy fit you clown
If you want to be treated with respect stop personalising things. I'm entitled to an opinion, we don't all have to think like you. Can you not just accept that when I say I'm going to give him time that's just what I'm going to do?
Are you that insecure that you can't cope with alternative views?
I'm sorry? You've resorted into personalising things first by calling me a big dope. It's all there to see. It's not the first insult you've done either. If you want to be treated with respect then it goes both ways.
Back to your point about Houllier, I don't agree with at all. The squad he had was top 8. It wasn't top 6 because of the loss of Milner and losing a CM of his calibur was a very big deal. He had no pre-season and a massive injury crisis in the first half, but still finished 9th 1 point away from 8th. Overall he done a good job.
If you're going to mention how the managers affect the players then I'll turn round and say Houllier done very well with Albrighton, Bannan, Delph, Clark, Delfouneso and Lichaj (to an extent, he had Bale in his pocket). But with AM he is ruining all of them. Doesn't even bother using half of them. He is destroying our future generation.
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Greg, you might be right but that's all conjecture really. I'm talking about what we saw last season and, given the players he had and the money he was allowed to spend 9th was an under achievement. Not a massive one and, all things being equal, enough to give him more time.
I think the rebuilding job this season would have been massive and we all remember some of the duds he signed at Liverpool.
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Trying to get a centre half to play in a style he's not suited to is as stupid as asking Barry Bannan to act as a target man. Just because Houllier had good ideas about how the game should be played, he must have I've seen it posted often enough, doesn't make him a good manager.
Yep, about as stupid as using Heskey in a midfield position. Oh wait...
You seem to be defending McLeish's anti football alot, which hasn't changed from Blues and Rangers. Do you like us not playing football? Do you even like football in general?
This is about Houllier you big dope. You really are obsessed, did a big ginger Scotsman steal your girlfriend or something?
Now, I'll explain it to you one more time. Please pay attention because it does get tiresome. I don't believe a third of a season is enough to judge a manager. That won't change just because you keep finding new ways to make the same point.
Don't throw a hissy fit you clown. Seeing as McLeish is the manager of Aston Villa I'd say discussing him is relevant in a Aston Villa forum. Don't you?
Also Houllier was a good manager. Forget about his positive football for a second. Firstly, he doesn't have relegations, he has superior achievements and left Liverpool with a legacy that won them the Champions League.
In his time at Villa he had no pre season, he had to deal with one of the biggest injury crisis this club has ever faced, could identify the bad apples who were holding us back, got us playing positive football and still managed us 9th after all thanks to his tactics that Gary Mac used.
Benitez won Liverpool the Champions League. It is insulting to suggest otherwise. Good managers use what they have and get the best out of it. I don't think Eck is doing that at the moment, just like Houllier last season. Eck deserves a chance though, and I agree with Chris.
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Clown this, dope that ...
It's a bit pointless. Can we all stop it, please?
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Compass, it was personalised when you made the inane remark about me not liking football. That wasn't a genuine question, just you trying to get a dig in because you hate people having different opinions.
Why does it bother you so much that I'm sticking to my guns? You aren't going to make me change my mind.
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Greg, you might be right but that's all conjecture really. I'm talking about what we saw last season and, given the players he had and the money he was allowed to spend 9th was an under achievement. Not a massive one and, all things being equal, enough to give him more time.
I think the rebuilding job this season would have been massive and we all remember some of the duds he signed at Liverpool.
oh i agree there. thats the 20m question really. Was he given the heave ho just because of the ticker or did Randy not fancy paying for his rebuilding? Personally i thought what went on with certain individuals was embarrassing and for that reason alone Lerner should have allowed him to move them out, but its not my money.
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We are a terrible side to watch this season, there doesn't seem to be any leadership on or off the field and i just can't see it getting any better. We need an influx of top players especially in midfield but am worried AM will buy in the basement and we end up with more Huttons.
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Greg, you might be right but that's all conjecture really. I'm talking about what we saw last season and, given the players he had and the money he was allowed to spend 9th was an under achievement. Not a massive one and, all things being equal, enough to give him more time.
I think the rebuilding job this season would have been massive and we all remember some of the duds he signed at Liverpool.
It would have been a big rebuilding job, and he's signed a few duds at Liverpool, but then again, look at some of the dross AM signed at Blues.
Someone mentioned this the other day, and I think it's right, but when Houllier said he'd "sort the defence out in the summer", we all assumed he meant in pre-season, and in terms of coaching. I now think he probably meant in terms of "they're rubbish, sell them and replace them".
I wanted to give Houllier the chance, and only really lost patience with him over his foot-in-mouth tendencies. hindsight is a wonderful thing, and seeing what we have now, and the football philosophy of the manager we have, I have a feeling that we went through the start of a painful modernising process last season, started seeing benefits at the end, then went three steps backward and appointed a traditional British manager. Absolutely inexplicable.
I also recall someone with decent links to the club telling me that some of the older players loathed Houllier's training methods (on the basis there was too much of it, and it involved working very hard), but that the younger players absolutely loved it.
I half expect part of the reason we saw that flurry of players slagging Houllier this season is because they're now happy back in their comfort zone, untroubled by pesky modern fitness routines, and we're starting to see some performances to back that up.
Of course, to be fair to McLeish, he's in a thankless position in that even if he wanted to ship out and replace some of the bad eggs (Collins, Dunne, Warnock et al), he wouldn't be able to, as the money's not there.
It all looks a bit of a mess, truth be told.
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Greg, you might be right but that's all conjecture really. I'm talking about what we saw last season and, given the players he had and the money he was allowed to spend 9th was an under achievement. Not a massive one and, all things being equal, enough to give him more time.
I think the rebuilding job this season would have been massive and we all remember some of the duds he signed at Liverpool.
I know GH shot himself in the foot a few times with team selection and some of the things he came out with,but he did only take over after a transfer window,and for a good few weeks had a crippling injury list,probably the worse i can remember in the years ive been supporting the team. I was in agreement with his spats with some of the squad,some of them had it too easy under M ON,and reading about the incident with Sid,a couple of them are lucky to still be with the squad.
Its worrying to hear what wouldve happened to Gab if GH stayed,a lot of Gabs problems were that he had his worse season for injuries,missing a lot of the summer, you could that GH team didnt play to Gabs strengths,but you could say the same about A Mc and Bent right now.
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Houllier took over a club which had lost its talismanic manager five days before the start of the season, was being run by a cabal of well meaning but clueless executives, and came in a fifth of the way through the season, having been out of the game for a while.
He made plenty of mistakes, but last season was an absolute write off from the moment O'Neill quit, it was always going to be transitional, and we were never going to finish sixth.
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Fair enough that you didn't like Houllier, Chris, but you say yourself a third of a season isn't enough to judge a manager. Given that Houllier didn't arrive until a few games in and had to leave very prematurely for health reasons, he didn't have anything like a full season, and certain not the all important summer transfer window.
Just don't think you're being consistent, is all...
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Houllier challenged them. The stallwarts like Warnock, Dunne, Carew, Collins etc went from the culture shock of playing every week and drinking pints to being made accountable. Work hard, eat well, live close to the ground, pass the ball to feet. A lot to fucking ask I agree. Houllier bad ticker and everything likely didn't mince his words and you can't blame it on his English because it's better than McLeish's.
Houllier's plan was far too radical for the club at this time. I think the club bought him in because they felt given what was available that he was the right person. The board quickly realized once Houllier had done his assessment that he was right about how fucked it had become and they didn't have the stomach or resources to fix it as quickly as Houllier wanted.
The Plan B or whatever it is now is that AM will be asked to do the same thing as Houllier wanted but at a much more manageable pace (for the club). As fans we'll just have to bear with it.
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The Plan B or whatever it is now is that AM will be asked to do the same thing as Houllier wanted but at a much more manageable pace (for the club). As fans we'll just have to bear with it.
Thanks for ruining Christmas(Shudders at your last sentence tv!)
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Fair enough that you didn't like Houllier, Chris, but you say yourself a third of a season isn't enough to judge a manager. Given that Houllier didn't arrive until a few games in and had to leave very prematurely for health reasons, he didn't have anything like a full season, and certain not the all important summer transfer window.
Just don't think you're being consistent, is all...
Sam, it's not to do with liking him or not. I was supportive during the season and wouldn't have wanted him sacked after finishing mid table. What is bugging me though is the revisionism, there were plenty of games last season every bit as bad as anything we've seen this time and he had better players. That's what happens when a team is in transition, yet people aren't giving AM the same benefit.
I am just commenting on what happened, not ifs, buts and maybes. I'll do the same this time, when I feel there is enough evidence.
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Can't agree there, Toronto.
McLeish screams "traditional British manager" - I don't think for a moment he's going to do the same thing as Houllier wanted, they're two totally different managers.
For a start, Houllier wanted us to keep possession of the ball, whereas McLeish seems allergic to it. I also find it hard to believe he'll have clamped down on the boozing and lazing culture in the way that Houllier wanted to - it's certainly very suspicious that we've had a flow of players telling us how much they hated Houllier, and McLeish is much more like it.
Under Houllier, we actually had recognisable, nameable scouts. Jeff Vetere was putting our European scouting network into place. He's since gone, has he been replaced? Who by? We also know that Cabaye was signing for us up until the point that Houllier left, and that he had a list of players he wanted to bring in.
What we have now under McLeish (and this isn't his fault) is an approach to signing new players that best resembles George Osbourne looking at a list of public spending projects, and an insistence that we have to make do with what we have.
There's nothing coming out of the club at the moment which suggests moving forward. Nothing at all. The whole place reeks of stagnation, and that's the most depressing thing.
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Can't agree there, Toronto.
McLeish screams "traditional British manager" - I don't think for a moment he's going to do the same thing as Houllier wanted, they're two totally different managers.
Absolutely. Let's put it this way. Do you think Houllier would have signed Hutton?
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We know that Cabeye said we were in for him, that doesn't translate to us having the money to sign him and pay his wages.
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Come on, Chris.
The player said he was joining us, and it fell through when Houllier went.
Why would we be after him if we couldn't afford him? His wages are probably less than we pay to that non-footballer Hutton.
"I had the possibility of going to Aston Villa," Cabaye told The People. "But it depended upon whether Gerard Houllier was going to continue in charge and as he ended up not staying I did not join them."
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I was actually looking forward to seeing what GH would have done in the summer market, it was touted on a few occasions that he had a very impressive set of targets lined up. I imagine the back 5 would have been completely rebuilt and plenty of the over-earners would have been shipped out and replaced with more value for money players.
Yohan Cabeye, who has hit the ground running at the barcodes said he was set to sign for us before GH's departure and I imagine the £10m and £60k p/w wages spent on the Zog would have got us two players.
The most gauling thing though, for me, is the fact that we not only had to pay off GH and Gary Mac but also waste £2.5m on compensating the blues for AMc, that must be a total of what £6-7m?? I would have prefered moving GH into a DoF role and keeping McCallister in the dugout, we certainly wouldn't be as dire as we are now.
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Fair enough that you didn't like Houllier, Chris, but you say yourself a third of a season isn't enough to judge a manager. Given that Houllier didn't arrive until a few games in and had to leave very prematurely for health reasons, he didn't have anything like a full season, and certain not the all important summer transfer window.
Just don't think you're being consistent, is all...
Sam, it's not to do with liking him or not. I was supportive during the season and wouldn't have wanted him sacked after finishing mid table. What is bugging me though is the revisionism, there were plenty of games last season every bit as bad as anything we've seen this time and he had better players. That's what happens when a team is in transition, yet people aren't giving AM the same benefit.
I am just commenting on what happened, not ifs, buts and maybes. I'll do the same this time, when I feel there is enough evidence.
I'm not sure thats true Chris. There was people who wanted out GH on here in November. As one, like you in the "give him time" camp i was shocked how quickly people turned on him. Frankly given the time GH got, AM isn't doing too bad
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Can't agree there, Toronto.
McLeish screams "traditional British manager" - I don't think for a moment he's going to do the same thing as Houllier wanted, they're two totally different managers.
Absolutely. Let's put it this way. Do you think Houllier would have signed Hutton?
No, it would have been Bruno Cheyrou.
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Sam, it's not to do with liking him or not. I was supportive during the season and wouldn't have wanted him sacked after finishing mid table. What is bugging me though is the revisionism, there were plenty of games last season every bit as bad as anything we've seen this time and he had better players. That's what happens when a team is in transition, yet people aren't giving AM the same benefit.
I am just commenting on what happened, not ifs, buts and maybes. I'll do the same this time, when I feel there is enough evidence.
[/quote]
I think one of the problems is, that Houllier made it pretty clear how crap we were, which suggests he wanted to make changes. McLeish seems to give the impression that things aren't that bad, which doesn't tally with the reality and is the reason most fans are crapping big fat bricks about the future. I also don't like his Steve McLaren style palliness with the players, calling them 'Benty' and stuff, but I guess that's just personal taste.
On Cabaye, the player said he had "deux offres concrètes" from Villa and Newcastle, so I think we'd have landed him.
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Can't agree there, Toronto.
McLeish screams "traditional British manager" - I don't think for a moment he's going to do the same thing as Houllier wanted, they're two totally different managers.
For a start, Houllier wanted us to keep possession of the ball, whereas McLeish seems allergic to it. I also find it hard to believe he'll have clamped down on the boozing and lazing culture in the way that Houllier wanted to - it's certainly very suspicious that we've had a flow of players telling us how much they hated Houllier, and McLeish is much more like it.
Under Houllier, we actually had recognisable, nameable scouts. Jeff Vetere was putting our European scouting network into place. He's since gone, has he been replaced? Who by? We also know that Cabaye was signing for us up until the point that Houllier left, and that he had a list of players he wanted to bring in.
What we have now under McLeish (and this isn't his fault) is an approach to signing new players that best resembles George Osbourne looking at a list of public spending projects, and an insistence that we have to make do with what we have.
There's nothing coming out of the club at the moment which suggests moving forward. Nothing at all. The whole place reeks of stagnation, and that's the most depressing thing.
Spot on
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Can't agree there, Toronto.
McLeish screams "traditional British manager" - I don't think for a moment he's going to do the same thing as Houllier wanted, they're two totally different managers.
Absolutely. Let's put it this way. Do you think Houllier would have signed Hutton?
No, it would have been Bruno Cheyrou.
I'd take him over most of our current midfield.
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Come on, Chris.
The player said he was joining us, and it fell through when Houllier went.
Why would we be after him if we couldn't afford him? His wages are probably less than we pay to that non-footballer Hutton.
"I had the possibility of going to Aston Villa," Cabaye told The People. "But it depended upon whether Gerard Houllier was going to continue in charge and as he ended up not staying I did not join them."
Come on, Paulie. We know how it works at Villa now, a manager wanting a player is no guarantee he'll get him although perhaps he was going to use the money he got for Gabby.
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Compass, it was personalised when you made the inane remark about me not liking football. That wasn't a genuine question, just you trying to get a dig in because you hate people having different opinions.
Why does it bother you so much that I'm sticking to my guns? You aren't going to make me change my mind.
Cos he has turned us into Blues. He has made us small time by not giving it a go against big teams, allows any team to dominate us, seems to be very happy with draws, plays one of the worst football in the league and we even have the same stats as them right now. Nothing has changed from Blues. I can't see any logical reason why any Villa fan would still be willing to give him a chance. I could see the difference in opinions with Houllier, MON etc. But with McLeish? I can't see any valid reason. He has been with us with June so how much more time does he need? Do you really trust him to be the man to keep us up if we're in a relegation battle? Well?
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Come on, Chris.
The player said he was joining us, and it fell through when Houllier went.
Why would we be after him if we couldn't afford him? His wages are probably less than we pay to that non-footballer Hutton.
"I had the possibility of going to Aston Villa," Cabaye told The People. "But it depended upon whether Gerard Houllier was going to continue in charge and as he ended up not staying I did not join them."
Come on, Paulie. We know how it works at Villa now, a manager wanting a player is no guarantee he'll get him although perhaps he was going to use the money he got for Gabby.
Or maybe he would have put the £17m AMc had to better use. I didn't think transfer fee's were our issue anyway, it's always stated as the wage bill and GH would have lowered that considerably this summer just by staying on. Dunne would have gone, possibly Collins, Warnock, Ireland, Petrov, Cuellar.
Cabaye cost the same as Hutton and I imagine is on less wages. I'd be confident that GH would have replaced Young & Downing with some cheaper continental talent and Bent would be be in double figures by now.
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Can't agree there, Toronto.
McLeish screams "traditional British manager" - I don't think for a moment he's going to do the same thing as Houllier wanted, they're two totally different managers.
Absolutely. Let's put it this way. Do you think Houllier would have signed Hutton?
No, it would have been Bruno Cheyrou.
You're being a bit harsh on old Houiller Chris bearing in mind this time last year you were telling those who doubted him to give him time, a bit like you're doing now with Eck.
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the whole last two years since MON left just seems like some strategical cul-de-sac to me. One minute we're gonna change, young players, foreign scouts looking for players abroad(!), no more overpaid premiership journeymen, then bang! Alan Hutton, N'zogbia, Emile Heskey in midfield and uber Hoof!
Ho hum.......
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Compass, slow down a bit you'll give yourself a heart attack.
In answer to your over aggressive question, I don't think we'll be in a relegation battle, I've seen plenty of worse sides than us this season, that's why there are so many of them below us in the table. However, as I have said, I don't think 14 games is enough to judge a manager on I'm not really going to be able to answer it, am I.
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Compass, slow down a bit you'll give yourself a heart attack.
However, as I have said, I don't think 14 games is enough to judge a manager on .
But 7 games was enough to judge Jean Makoun though?
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Can't agree there, Toronto.
McLeish screams "traditional British manager" - I don't think for a moment he's going to do the same thing as Houllier wanted, they're two totally different managers.
Absolutely. Let's put it this way. Do you think Houllier would have signed Hutton?
No, it would have been Bruno Cheyrou.
You're being a bit harsh on old Houiller Chris bearing in mind this time last year you were telling those who doubted him to give him time, a bit like you're doing now with Eck.
If you read above I've explained that. I did give him time and would have accepted it if he'd been given another season but there were plenty of shit performances and even more PR cock ups but people are trying to gloss over that.
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Can't agree there, Toronto.
McLeish screams "traditional British manager" - I don't think for a moment he's going to do the same thing as Houllier wanted, they're two totally different managers.
Absolutely. Let's put it this way. Do you think Houllier would have signed Hutton?
No, it would have been Bruno Cheyrou.
You're being a bit harsh on old Houiller Chris bearing in mind this time last year you were telling those who doubted him to give him time, a bit like you're doing now with Eck.
If you read above I've explained that. I did give him time and would have accepted it if he'd been given another season but there were plenty of shit performances and even more PR cock ups but people are trying to gloss over that.
I don't think they are, they're just comparing the type of players that would have come in had he stayed in comparison to Eck and it's a fair point i suppose. For example, Houiller brought in Kyle Walker, McCleish brought in Alan Hutton.
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Compass, slow down a bit you'll give yourself a heart attack.
However, as I have said, I don't think 14 games is enough to judge a manager on .
But 7 games was enough to judge Jean Makoun though?
Players and managers are completely different, it's not a like for like comparison. With every other manager we've had people have said that you need to wait until he has his own players to properly judge him but for some reason that doesn't apply this time.
Makoun isn't a bad player but I just couldn't see how he could fit in. What sort of midfield pairing would suit his style?
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Houiller brought in Kyle Walker, McCleish brought in Alan Hutton.
I don't think you could describe the difference between the two managers any better...
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Can't agree there, Toronto.
McLeish screams "traditional British manager" - I don't think for a moment he's going to do the same thing as Houllier wanted, they're two totally different managers.
For a start, Houllier wanted us to keep possession of the ball, whereas McLeish seems allergic to it. I also find it hard to believe he'll have clamped down on the boozing and lazing culture in the way that Houllier wanted to - it's certainly very suspicious that we've had a flow of players telling us how much they hated Houllier, and McLeish is much more like it.
Under Houllier, we actually had recognisable, nameable scouts. Jeff Vetere was putting our European scouting network into place. He's since gone, has he been replaced? Who by? We also know that Cabaye was signing for us up until the point that Houllier left, and that he had a list of players he wanted to bring in.
What we have now under McLeish (and this isn't his fault) is an approach to signing new players that best resembles George Osbourne looking at a list of public spending projects, and an insistence that we have to make do with what we have.
There's nothing coming out of the club at the moment which suggests moving forward. Nothing at all. The whole place reeks of stagnation, and that's the most depressing thing.
That's not the point I was making. I'm talking about the clearing out of the high wage players and bringing in new talent. Off course GH would have bought different types of players. GH would have wanted to get rid of the players he didn't want at his pace i.e this past summer. AM would have been told to work with what he has for longer so that the club doesn't take on any more losses. I'm sure had GH had his way he would have dumped most of the crap for what he could get and then reinvested in players that could actually trap a football, and with inteligent scouting wouldn't cost us British style transfer fees or wages.
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Compass, slow down a bit you'll give yourself a heart attack.
However, as I have said, I don't think 14 games is enough to judge a manager on .
But 7 games was enough to judge Jean Makoun though?
Players and managers are completely different, it's not a like for like comparison. With every other manager we've had people have said that you need to wait until he has his own players to properly judge him but for some reason that doesn't apply this time.
Makoun isn't a bad player but I just couldn't see how he could fit in. What sort of midfield pairing would suit his style?
I don't think you can write off a player from another league and country after 7 games though. Who knows how he might have done if he'd have been given a run of 10 games in midfield. As for the midfield pairing, i'm not sure but you've said yourself the midfield is'nt right so he can't have done any worse had he stayed.
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You have to put in the context of where we were at the time. Due to wages it had to be one in, one out. So to get Jenas, or anyone, somebody had to go out. Extremely harsh on the manager, I think, given that we'd already lost Young, Doening and Reo Coker but that's the reality.
In an ideal world we'd have kept him, we're not operating in an ideal world though.
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You're being a bit harsh on old Houiller Chris bearing in mind this time last year you were telling those who doubted him to give him time, a bit like you're doing now with Eck.
Did he? Well that's settled it. I think it's apparent Chris can only see things in Claret & Blue tinted glasses. Yeah, you're right Chris. There is no point challenging you when you're like that.
Once AM gets sacked I'll await your fickleness just like what you're doing with Houllier right now.
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Don't we all see things from a C&B-tinted perspective? They're our club. We all want the best for our club. Don't we?
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You're being a bit harsh on old Houiller Chris bearing in mind this time last year you were telling those who doubted him to give him time, a bit like you're doing now with Eck.
Did he? Well that's settled it. I think it's apparent Chris can only see things in Claret & Blue tinted glasses. Yeah, you're right Chris. There is no point challenging you when you're like that.
Once AM gets sacked I'll await your fickleness just like what you're doing with Houllier right now.
So I said Houllier deserved time before being judged and now I say McLeish should be given time before being judged and somehow in your addled brain that's being fickle. Truly fucking weird.
It's not just our manager you're obsessed with, you're stalking me now and presenting more and more nonsensical arguments because you think you can "win".
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Don't we all see things from a C&B-tinted perspective? They're our club. We all want the best for our club. Don't we?
What I mean from a Claret & Blue perspective is everything is fine and dandy in the club. It's not though, not really. There's just too many issues under the manager.
Yes, I want the best for our club, but it's evident to the vast majority that AM remaining at the helm isn't the best for the club. Maybe the minority will turn if we lose against Bolton or when we'll get relegated. Hell, they might still back him in the fucking Championship because they think that low of us.
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Compass, slow down a bit you'll give yourself a heart attack.
However, as I have said, I don't think 14 games is enough to judge a manager on .
But 7 games was enough to judge Jean Makoun though?
Not only is seven games enough to judge Makoun, it is seemingly enough for a club with not a pot to piss in, and a problem in midfield to do it.
Madness.
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Why did we send Makoun and Gardner on loan anyway? They were immense at Hong Kong when they came on against Chelsea. So pointless when we're really lacking in that area.
And before someone says sending Gardner on loan will help him. You do realise being in a losing team won't help him that much?
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Compass, really, I agree with you by and large, but you mentioned how Villa fans shouldn't 'turn on their own' when people were personally criticising you. I urge you to refrain from doing the same.
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Don't we all see things from a C&B-tinted perspective? They're our club. We all want the best for our club. Don't we?
What I mean from a Claret & Blue perspective is everything is fine and dandy in the club. It's not though, not really. There's just too many issues under the manager.
Yes, I want the best for our club, but it's evident to the vast majority that AM remaining at the helm isn't the best for the club. Maybe the minority will turn if we lose against Bolton or when we'll get relegated. Hell, they might still back him in the fucking Championship because they think that low of us.
It's not evident to the only person that matters though, you can have as many little tantrums as you like but Randy Lerner has appointed him and, like any sensible person, will not be panicking just yet.
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it'd be good - at the second time of asking tonight - of the personal digs and squabbling could stop.
There's enough to moan about without resorting to personal digs and vendettas to pass the time, so, please, again, can we knock it on the head?
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Why did we send Makoun and Gardner on loan anyway? They were immense at Hong Kong when they came on against Chelsea. So pointless when we're really lacking in that area.
And before someone says sending Gardner on loan will help him. You do realise being in a losing team won't help him that much?
It will though in a way, he'll appreciate what he's got when he comes back and hopefully make him even more determined to succeed with us.
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I haven't read the whole thread but the title is frustrating me.
Villa being discussed AT length on Talksport......
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Don't we all see things from a C&B-tinted perspective? They're our club. We all want the best for our club. Don't we?
What I mean from a Claret & Blue perspective is everything is fine and dandy in the club. It's not though, not really. There's just too many issues under the manager.
Yes, I want the best for our club, but it's evident to the vast majority that AM remaining at the helm isn't the best for the club. Maybe the minority will turn if we lose against Bolton or when we'll get relegated. Hell, they might still back him in the fucking Championship because they think that low of us.
It's not evident to the only person that matters though, you can have as many little tantrums as you like but Randy Lerner has appointed him and, like any sensible person, will not be panicking just yet.
A sensible owner wouldn't have appointed McLeish in the first place.
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How bad must the owners and managers of the clubs below us in the league be if ours are apparently so useless?
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How bad must the owners and managers of the clubs below us in the league be if ours are apparently so useless?
How many of those clubs can afford to give out the sort of contract that the likes of N'Zogbia have at Villa Park? It's horses for courses.We don't expect to be up there with City but likewise given the means at our disposal we shouldn't be in and amongst the likes of WBA and QPR
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It's not evident to the only person that matters though, you can have as many little tantrums as you like but Randy Lerner has appointed him and, like any sensible person, will not be panicking just yet.
I would not have called Randy a "sensible" person when he appointed AM in June. I believe Randy should be listening to the supporters concerns, because that would be a sensible act in the long term future.
These tantrums, as you call them Chris, are continuing to grow around the place. They are expressions of care and passion from fans, and if they are not heard we will lose them like any other business and suffer the financial consequences.
I could argue that sacking McLeish would be a sensible and rational decision. Could you do the same for appointing him in June?
Things need to change at the club for the better.
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Compass, slow down a bit you'll give yourself a heart attack.
However, as I have said, I don't think 14 games is enough to judge a manager on .
But 7 games was enough to judge Jean Makoun though?
Not only is seven games enough to judge Makoun, it is seemingly enough for a club with not a pot to piss in, and a problem in midfield to do it.
Madness.
Exactly, ditching Makoun like we have given the 'chance' he had is an absolute joke.
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Don't we all see things from a C&B-tinted perspective? They're our club. We all want the best for our club. Don't we?
What I mean from a Claret & Blue perspective is everything is fine and dandy in the club. It's not though, not really. There's just too many issues under the manager.
Yes, I want the best for our club, but it's evident to the vast majority that AM remaining at the helm isn't the best for the club. Maybe the minority will turn if we lose against Bolton or when we'll get relegated. Hell, they might still back him in the fucking Championship because they think that low of us.
Do you have to be such a huge drama llama?
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Whether you like it or not he did appoint him, so I'm talking about the here and now. If another club were sitting in mid table after selling their best players and after a third if the season fans were calling fir the manager to be sacked we'd be taking the piss out of them for acting like spoilt brats.
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Compass, slow down a bit you'll give yourself a heart attack.
However, as I have said, I don't think 14 games is enough to judge a manager on .
But 7 games was enough to judge Jean Makoun though?
Players and managers are completely different, it's not a like for like comparison. With every other manager we've had people have said that you need to wait until he has his own players to properly judge him but for some reason that doesn't apply this time.
Makoun isn't a bad player but I just couldn't see how he could fit in. What sort of midfield pairing would suit his style?
Compass, slow down a bit you'll give yourself a heart attack.
In answer to your over aggressive question, I don't think we'll be in a relegation battle, I've seen plenty of worse sides than us this season, that's why there are so many of them below us in the table. However, as I have said, I don't think 14 games is enough to judge a manager on I'm not really going to be able to answer it, am I.
Most people had sussed out O'dreary by Doncaster Gate in November of his final season, you kept on saying you'd give your verdict at the end which basically came out as a wishy washy yeah he should probably go but he's working under Ellis, who could we get that's any better etc. so I presume we'll get the same on this occasion?
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Don't we all see things from a C&B-tinted perspective? They're our club. We all want the best for our club. Don't we?
Yeah but tbh things are getting so bad on the pitch that if I wasn't a fan of this great club and they were playing at the bottom of the garden, those curtains and blinds would be drawn without question.
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In fairness, Chris didn't think that two and a half years was really enough time to judge a manager. *winky*
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Whether you like it or not he did appoint him, so I'm talking about the here and now. If another club were sitting in mid table after selling their best players and after a third if the season fans were calling fir the manager to be sacked we'd be taking the piss out of them for acting like spoilt brats.
Wake up. The football and atmosphere at present is fucking dire under AM and it will not get any better under him. He never had the fan support and never will, see Gary Megson at Bolton. Everything at the club is weak.
AM had adequate funds to bring players in, he has had some flexibility on his budget to sign players. There is no reason for his boring and thuggish style of football here.
I can assure you once AM leaves, I will have no interest in him or his career.
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I'm having do much fun lately, annoying the Stalinists who cannot tolerate any other viewpoint. I imagine Iago and Compass walking home from school together planning new ways to say the same thing and then screaming at their PCs because they can't force me to change my mind.
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I'm having do much fun lately, annoying the Stalinists who cannot tolerate any other viewpoint.
Thanks for informing us of your agenda on this forum, which is primarily to annoy other members on a forum for fun. Great, I am going to take your viewpoint much more credibly in the future.
I can tolerate a different viewpoint and I respect you for having a different opinion. That is healthy in a debate, good, I welcome it. Will I contest your view? Yes.
I imagine Iago and Compass walking home from school together planning new ways to say the same thing and then screaming at their PCs because they can't force me to change my mind.
Why do you have to make it personal and demeaning? I do not know Compass, and my point of view is formed by myself not influenced by anybody else.
I do not want you to change your mind or be influenced by my thoughts. But maybe you have that goal? I do not know your intentions.
You can keep your emotionally detached opinion on the club, I am done debating with you, you offer nothing to the debate.
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Apparently, challenging an opinion means we can't tolerate another opinion. ::) It can be tolerated, but it's illogical and it will be challenged.
He must get some thrill out of it when he tries to cause another stir. I won't waste any more time giving him the satisfaction. He'll have to find his 'fun' somewhere else.
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I can tolerate a different viewpoint and I respect you for having a different opinion. That is healthy in a debate, good, I welcome it. Will I contest your view? Yes.
Fine words but clearly untrue. If it were the case you' reply "I can see your point but..." not "wake up". For some reason it seems to really bother you that i don't agree with you.
Annoying you isn't my only concern, it's just a happy by-product.
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Apparently, challenging an opinion means we can't tolerate another opinion. ::) It can be tolerated, but it's illogical and it will be challenged.
He must get some thrill out of it when he tries to cause another stir. I won't waste any more time giving him the satisfaction. He'll have to find his 'fun' somewhere else.
Spoil sport, although how will you cope without having the heretic to condemn? Your post count will dwindle to zero.
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At least I'll be watching matches and commenting them after. Unlike your laughable verdict of games you haven't seen *cough* Spurs *cough*
I'm beginning to think you haven't watch us play at all and just take all the positives from the highlights. Would explain it.
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I kinda wish I hadn't bothered reading all that. It was like reading a book expecting a plot twist but nothing came.
One conclusion I have come to is that the "next guy" will be landing a pretty decent job. Houllier was cursed for NOT being MON and therefore alienated half the crowd. Whereas McLeish seems cursed for NOT being Houllier (rev 2.0) and admittedly his dubious "Blues" tactics.
I would imagine that the next manager will be overwhelmed by the support of the masses that there will finally be a bit of a feel good factor about the place. Not to mention the high earner's contracts expiring and a group of possibly decent youngsters to introduce into the team.
It's possibly harsh on McLeish as Chris is right, he hasn't been given enough time, but I want a change just so we have some HOPE again rather the current situation where the club and fans are pulling in different directions.
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Would the people saying change the manager because things will continue to get worse rather than better be the people who wanted Houllier out after Wolves because we were definately going down under him? Then after a late rally that he wasn't totally involved in they wanted to give him a chance. Now it's a tragedy he wasn't able to continue. Houllier was the wrong choice, then he wasn't able to continue (although from his Times interview RL was getting rid of him anyway), then we made another bad choice. But I really think after the weakening of the side and the turmoil of the last year or so we should give AM this season at least before hanging him.
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I can tolerate a different viewpoint and I respect you for having a different opinion. That is healthy in a debate, good, I welcome it. Will I contest your view? Yes.
Fine words but clearly untrue. If it were the case you' reply "I can see your point but..." not "wake up". For some reason it seems to really bother you that i don't agree with you.
Annoying you isn't my only concern, it's just a happy by-product.
;D That whole post made me chuckle, comedian. My "wake up" was accompanied by my reasoning. You have missed the point, not for the first time I may add. I respect everybody's right to form an opinion, but I will not leave it unchallenged. And why should I present my argument to your standards? If I want to start my rebuttal with "wake up" or whatever, I can do so. Remember it is not personal.
I admit, it does bother me when you label posters as "Stalinists" and look to demean others in various ways. It is quite sad, I pity you really.
I have given you too much credit in the past, that will not happen again in the future. Bye. Good luck irritating and personally belittling others who share a different view. Continue to humour me.
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At least I'll be watching matches and commenting them after. Unlike your laughable verdict of games you haven't seen *cough* Spurs *cough*
I'm beginning to think you haven't watch us play at all and just take all the positives from the highlights. Would explain it.
Season ticket holder, unlike you I put my money where my mouth is.
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Apparently, challenging an opinion means we can't tolerate another opinion. ::) It can be tolerated, but it's illogical and it will be challenged.
He must get some thrill out of it when he tries to cause another stir. I won't waste any more time giving him the satisfaction. He'll have to find his 'fun' somewhere else.
I thought he was serious with his opinion, and I gave him respect by trading views. I am done with him. He can have the pleasure of irritating somebody else.
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I can tolerate a different viewpoint and I respect you for having a different opinion. That is healthy in a debate, good, I welcome it. Will I contest your view? Yes.
Fine words but clearly untrue. If it were the case you' reply "I can see your point but..." not "wake up". For some reason it seems to really bother you that i don't agree with you.
Annoying you isn't my only concern, it's just a happy by-product.
;D That whole post made me chuckle, comedian. My "wake up" was accompanied by my reasoning. You have missed the point, not for the first time I may add. I respect everybody's right to form an opinion, but I will not leave it unchallenged. And why should I present my argument to your standards? If I want to start my rebuttal with "wake up" or whatever, I can do so. Remember it is not personal.
I admit, it does bother me when you label posters as "Stalinists" and look to demean others in various ways. It is quite sad, I pity you really.
I have given you too much credit in the past, that will not happen again in the future. Bye. Good luck irritating and personally belittling others who share a different view. Continue to humour me.
You're just babbling now, you don't mean any of that you're just using all the Internet put downs you've ever read and stringing them together.
Funny how you and you and Compass weren't going to bother answering but neither lasted more than 10 minutes.
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I'm having do much fun lately, annoying the Stalinists who cannot tolerate any other viewpoint. I imagine Iago and Compass walking home from school together planning new ways to say the same thing and then screaming at their PCs because they can't force me to change my mind.
Funny how you and you and Compass weren't going to bother answering but neither lasted more than 10 minutes.
Is this a joke? It's a new day today and out of nowhere you decided to name/insult me and the other guy because we dared to challenge your flawed opinion. And now you think it's funny you have baited us?
How the fuck have you managed to stay on this forum all these years with 25k + posts is beyond me. At least there's some logic in this world and you're not a mod thank christ for obvious reasons. You're a giant parody of yourself and a complete moron. You have a mind capacity of a 12 year old as proven today and have a mindset of a Blose thinking anything McLeish has dished out under Villa is good enough.
Good job, your trolling tactics worked, but I don't give crap anymore because I'm done with this forum. But that's not to say I didn't have the pleasure of speaking to my fellow fans here because I did. But Chris Smith you belong to SHA where they expect turd getting served up to them. Carry on swallowing it.
Adios. ;) ;D
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Someone, anyone, please make it stop.
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Ahh, the old Chris Smith vs (insert name here) argument. Bless old Chrissie, i remember the days when he was stood by DOL even after we were totally humiliated up at Doncaster Rovers, so what's happening now is nothing new. Most of us are immune to it. It's just Chris being Chris. It's predictable but nothing new.
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Ahh, the old Chris Smith vs (insert name here) argument. Bless old Chrissie, i remember the days when he was stood by DOL even after we were totally humiliated up at Doncaster Rovers, so what's happening now is nothing new. Most of us are immune to it. It's just Chris being Chris. It's predictable but nothing new.
If we go out to Bristol Rovers in the cup, then we really will be partying like it's 2005.
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What was the original point of the thread before the stupid argument erupted?
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Ahh, the old Chris Smith vs (insert name here) argument. Bless old Chrissie, i remember the days when he stood by DOL even after we were totally humiliated up at Doncaster Rovers, so what's happening now is nothing new. Most of us are immune to it. It's just Chris being Chris. It's predictable but nothing new.
If we go out to Bristol Rovers in the cup, then we really will be partying like it's 2005.
We might play better in the second half though.
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Ahh, the old Chris Smith vs (insert name here) argument. Bless old Chrissie, i remember the days when he was stood by DOL even after we were totally humiliated up at Doncaster Rovers, so what's happening now is nothing new. Most of us are immune to it. It's just Chris being Chris. It's predictable but nothing new.
No, nothing new. I'm stating my position and sticking to it. Why is that such a bad thing? Why is saying that 14 games is too short a period for making an informed judgement on a manger so controversial?
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Someone, anyone, please make it stop.
Post of the week.
Can be applied in so many ways currently.
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I think that's enough now.
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Yes, congratulations on some utterly twattish behaviour on this thread, and well done to all concenred for paying zero attention to the requests not to.