Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: eamonn on November 08, 2011, 02:16:36 PM
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It seems Jean II has been used as sparingly at Olympiakos as he largely was with us. But he did climb off the bench to head what proved to be the winner in 3-2 win over Salonika at the weekend. His team-mate Olof Mellberg did a bit of a ''Hutton'' to help Salonika get back into it, but Olympiakos held on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt9EVRImR_Y&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt9EVRImR_Y&feature=related)
This was Jean Deux's plea to the Villa faithful afterwards (to Ian B in particular):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_9sB92dJzM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_9sB92dJzM)
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Sparingly? He's yet to start a game over there. I think Olympiakos appointed a new coach not long after they signed Jean II, who obviously didn't fancy him. Apparently we've agreed a sell-on clause of €3.5m should they wish to keep him in the summer.
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Yeah, sparingly, as in not used much.
Maybe his goal will get him a start. Was it ever confirmed the price we paid for him? I seem to remember Houllier making a point of saying that it wasn't even close to the reported figure (£6.2m I think). I hope not if the sell-on is less than half of that.
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From what I heard it was about a potential £4m deal but based on appearances and suchlike.
We've probably ponied up about £2.5m in actuality.
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Why did we get rid of him again? I moved house in summer and had no internet access, never found out why he went.
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I'd completely forgotten about him.
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When you buy a player from another country, i think giving him more than 7 games to settle in might be a good idea.
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Amen to that Clamps
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When you buy a player from another country, i think giving him more than 7 games to settle in might be a good idea.
Very much so.
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When you buy a player from another country, i think giving him more than 7 games to settle in might be a good idea.
Absolutely. N'Zogbia has had a few months, and he has played in the Premiership before.
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When you buy a player from another country, i think giving him more than 7 games to settle in might be a good idea.
Unless of course, it's apparent in training that he has no pace, and can't tackle, and is the worst of your five or so central midfielders.
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Riss, would you say he is worse than Stephen Ireland?
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Sometimes I get the feeling that Risso's judgement of Makoun is based on his opinion of the man who brought him here, rather than the ability/potential the player showed in his few games for us last season.
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When you buy a player from another country, i think giving him more than 7 games to settle in might be a good idea.
there were many people using this forum that were not too bothered to see him go, when the story first broke. At the least Makoun could have been a good squad player.
He obviously wasn't a pub-enough player for McLeish to want to retain his services.
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In an ideal world we'd have kept Makoun to see if he could adapt but to bring in Jenas he had to be sacrificed. We can arue about the merits of the players (I think JJ is likely to have more impact) but we have to accept the economic reality.
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I'd rather have Herd in the team than Makoun.
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To think he was the signing that was to herald a new era under Houllier, where each addition to the squad would be more exotic than the next. A departure from the 'boring' signings under MON, which proved so calamitous. "You only finish 6th with domestic signings" shouted the masses, "nothing beats Premier League experience" nodded the reserved minority...
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From what i saw of Makoun I wasn't ever impressed.There is credibilty to the argument that seven games isn't enough to be deemed a fair chance but he struggled to complete simple passes and his tackling was clumsy bordering on reckless.
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he struggled to complete simple passes and his tackling was clumsy bordering on reckless.
You must have missed the game up at Old Trafford then, i think he gave the ball away once. His tackling was'nt the best granted, but it may have been that he was getting used to the pace of the Premiership.
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To think he was the signing that was to herald a new era under Houllier, where each addition to the squad would be more exotic than the next. A departure from the 'boring' signings under MON, which proved so calamitous. "You only finish 6th with domestic signings" shouted the masses, "nothing beats Premier League experience" nodded the reserved minority...
Houllier would have brought in Cabaye in the summer who is one of the main reasons Newcastle are sitting in third place.
Still, as you say, MON knew best. Nothing beats Heskey in midfield I suppose.
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Makoun was very good at passing to the nearest man first time, his short passing was good. Not sure everyone else was upto speed with the speed of his passing.
For a 'defensive' midfielder, his takling was poor, most of the time he'd just run straight into players
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Yeah, sparingly, as in not used much.
Maybe his goal will get him a start. Was it ever confirmed the price we paid for him? I seem to remember Houllier making a point of saying that it wasn't even close to the reported figure (£6.2m I think). I hope not if the sell-on is less than half of that.
I recall Houllier saying in a televised press conference that Makoun cost in Euros €5 million.
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I'd rather have Herd in the team than Makoun.
Rather have Makoun on the bench than Ireland,or in midfield than Heskey.
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I liked him, I think he would have been a good player given time to settle
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To think he was the signing that was to herald a new era under Houllier, where each addition to the squad would be more exotic than the next. A departure from the 'boring' signings under MON, which proved so calamitous. "You only finish 6th with domestic signings" shouted the masses, "nothing beats Premier League experience" nodded the reserved minority...
Houllier would have brought in Cabaye in the summer who is one of the main reasons Newcastle are sitting in third place.
Still, as you say, MON knew best. Nothing beats Heskey in midfield I suppose.
Exactly, Cabaye is exactly what we need so those sort of signings would have been brilliant. It also didn't work out too badly for Wenger back in the day.
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To think he was the signing that was to herald a new era under Houllier, where each addition to the squad would be more exotic than the next. A departure from the 'boring' signings under MON, which proved so calamitous. "You only finish 6th with domestic signings" shouted the masses, "nothing beats Premier League experience" nodded the reserved minority...
Houllier would have brought in Cabaye in the summer who is one of the main reasons Newcastle are sitting in third place.
Still, as you say, MON knew best. Nothing beats Heskey in midfield I suppose.
Is that a fact? Why didnt he sign him in January?
No one wants to see Heskey in midfield and it would be great if we had signed Cabaye. But I think it would have been just as likely we would have got some other dud who would have to have been packed off back to Europe on loan.
Pointing to Cabaye (who has only played 10 games) is not sufficient evidence that buting foreign players is, or ever was, the answer to our problems. In fact if you look at the very top clubs, they tend to buy the better players from clubs like us rather than gamble on an unproven PL player (not including clear superstars like Aguero, Suarez etc.)
It is exciting signing somebody we know nothing about and waiting to see if he is the next Balaban or the next.....have we ever actually signed someone relatively unknown from abroad that has gone on to be a star...Yorke, maybe?
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To think he was the signing that was to herald a new era under Houllier, where each addition to the squad would be more exotic than the next. A departure from the 'boring' signings under MON, which proved so calamitous. "You only finish 6th with domestic signings" shouted the masses, "nothing beats Premier League experience" nodded the reserved minority...
Houllier would have brought in Cabaye in the summer who is one of the main reasons Newcastle are sitting in third place.
Still, as you say, MON knew best. Nothing beats Heskey in midfield I suppose.
Is that a fact? Why didnt he sign him in January?
No one wants to see Heskey in midfield and it would be great if we had signed Cabaye. But I think it would have been just as likely we would have got some other dud who would have to have been packed off back to Europe on loan.
Pointing to Cabaye (who has only played 10 games) is not sufficient evidence that buting foreign players is, or ever was, the answer to our problems. In fact if you look at the very top clubs, they tend to buy the better players from clubs like us rather than gamble on an unproven PL player (not including clear superstars like Aguero, Suarez etc.)
It is exciting signing somebody we know nothing about and waiting to see if he is the next Balaban or the next.....have we ever actually signed someone relatively unknown from abroad that has gone on to be a star...Yorke, maybe?
The Cabaye bit is a fact, he's said as much. We haven't had wild success with foreign imports in general. However there are lots of players who weren't established megastars when they were signed, who have proved very very good. To list a few Van Persie, Vidic, Jose Enrique, Sagna, Modric(was a lot of money, but not proven), Tiote, Fabregas. That's a few but there are many more.
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I agree, Makoun had potential and I wouldn't have shipped him out before xmas.
He showed glimpses in the games he played, he played a superb ball through in his home debut against Fulham which lead to the own goal, set up Gabby's goal at Blackpool and he set up Young for a shot that hit the post at home to Wolves. That suggested he had a bit of creativity in his game which was a positive compared to his mistimed tackles. But then again Tiote at Newcastle picked up 14 bookings for Newcastle and still had a good season.
I think he probably didn't fancy playing for McLeish in all honesty and wanted to go. That said given how badly Delph has deteriorated as the season has gone on and that Saturday was the first we've seen of Jenas, I'd have kept hold of him.
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I don't think Delph has deteriorated, he just hasn't really improved and is yet to make a big impression.
He really should be in Petrov's role, getting forward when possible, with Petrov sitting.
It's still too early to write him off as he's had terrible injuries with us. A run of eight games or so isn't enough, though the next time he gets a chance he has to start making more of an impact.
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I agree, Makoun had potential and I wouldn't have shipped him out before xmas.
He showed glimpses in the games he played, he played a superb ball through in his home debut against Fulham which lead to the own goal, set up Gabby's goal at Blackpool and he set up Young for a shot that hit the post at home to Wolves. That suggested he had a bit of creativity in his game which was a positive compared to his mistimed tackles. But then again Tiote at Newcastle picked up 14 bookings for Newcastle and still had a good season.
I think he probably didn't fancy playing for McLeish in all honesty and wanted to go. That said given how badly Delph has deteriorated as the season has gone on and that Saturday was the first we've seen of Jenas, I'd have kept hold of him.
I thought it was NRC & Bent who set up Gabbys goal at Blackpool.
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Makoun was very good at passing to the nearest man first time, his short passing was good. Not sure everyone else was upto speed with the speed of his passing.
For a 'defensive' midfielder, his takling was poor, most of the time he'd just run straight into players
On the two occasions I saw him he was slow and had no awareness of where the opposition players were, so continually dispossesed and fouling.
If he is this maestro that some think he is why is he not getting a sniff in greece?
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I just think our central midfield is such an area of weakness that we couldn't afford to wait and see whether Makoun was going to cut it or not. We were unfortunate that the replacement with PL experience we got in kept getting crocked.
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Delph did o.k at Fulham and was MOTM at home to Blackburn. However I thought he was really poor at Everton and at home to Newcastle.
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I'd just like to get Makoun back. He's a bit special. Roll on the end of the season.
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Makoun was very good at passing to the nearest man first time, his short passing was good. Not sure everyone else was upto speed with the speed of his passing.
For a 'defensive' midfielder, his takling was poor, most of the time he'd just run straight into players
On the two occasions I saw him he was slow and had no awareness of where the opposition players were, so continually dispossesed and fouling.
If he is this maestro that some think he is why is he not getting a sniff in greece?
You didnt see him at Old Trafford, then, he passed the ball exceptionally well and barely ever gave it away.
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You just need to give foreign players time to settle. Nani took an age before he clicked at Man Utd.
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You just need to give foreign players time to settle. Nani took an age before he clicked at Man Utd.
He was a young player who had other world class players in the team ahead of him. Makoun was supposed to be a Champions League class defensive midfielder, he wasn't, he was (is) crap.
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Maybe he needed more time to settle but he is barely getting a game in Greece (which isn't exactly the highest level in the world) so I don't get how people think he is going to be some kind of saviour for us. We signed him as a defensive midfielder and that was a role he was completely unsuited to. He was a poor tackler and not only that he lacked the intelligence of a Petrov or a Gareth Barry who managed to get past not being top class tacklers by knowing how to disrupt the other teams rhythm through intercepting the ball and winning fouls. We looked much a better team for dropping him and bringing in Petrov and NRC towards last season for this reason in spite of both of them being poorer passers. He has done nothing to prove himself to be some kind of magic bullet.
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Maybe he needed more time to settle but he is barely getting a game in Greece (which isn't exactly the highest level in the world) so I don't get how people think he is going to be some kind of saviour for us. We signed him as a defensive midfielder and that was a role he was completely unsuited to. He was a poor tackler and not only that he lacked the intelligence of a Petrov or a Gareth Barry who managed to get past not being top class tacklers by knowing how to disrupt the other teams rhythm through intercepting the ball and winning fouls. We looked much a better team for dropping him and bringing in Petrov and NRC towards last season for this reason in spite of both of them being poorer passers. He has done nothing to prove himself to be some kind of magic bullet.
But he did really well at OT
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But he did really well at OT
You can't base your evaluation of a player based on one game.
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But he did really well at OT
You can't base your evaluation of a player based on one game.
But you can on six or seven?
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But he did really well at OT
You can't base your evaluation of a player based on one game.
But you can on six or seven?
The more a player plays, the truer the picture you get of them is. But more importantly, a manager also sees them in training during that time and can then draw conculusions, either rightly or wrongly, based on more than we see on match day.
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When I said I wasn't impressed with N'zogbia's attitude and overall play the general feeling was give him time yet Makoun get's a few games for everyone to decide he's hopeless
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from the games I saw Makoun I thought he did ok, although, I'd much rather have Chris Herd in the team now, hindsight is a wonderful thing.
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When I said I wasn't impressed with N'zogbia's attitude and overall play the general feeling was give him time yet Makoun get's a few games for everyone to decide he's hopeless
If the man who bought him, Houllier, didn't think that Makoun was worth a start, and presumably he was bought with Houllier's style of tippy tappy football in mind, then he had no chance under McLeish. I didn't think his style was at all suited to the Premier League. He was slow, couldn't tackle and making lots of short one touch passes couldn't make up for those facts.
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It's a good job we did'nt kick out Petrov after 7 games.
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I think a lot of people would have Clampy, Saying that he took a LONG time to settle
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I think a lot of people would have Clampy, Saying that he took a LONG time to settle
I know, but at least he was given a fair crack. Makoun in fairness was hardly given time to find a house.
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When I said I wasn't impressed with N'zogbia's attitude and overall play the general feeling was give him time yet Makoun get's a few games for everyone to decide he's hopeless
The main difference between the two is what we know of N'Zogbia from Wigan - which is that he can be a very good PL performer. With Makoun, it's more his suitablility to the PL than actual ability that I question.
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It's a good job we did'nt kick out Petrov after 7 games.
If the manager that signed him had left, we probably would have.
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It's strange though, MON got lambasted for not looking past England for his players. The next manager comes in, brings in a player who's played over 200 games in France and he's deemed not suitable.
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It's strange though, MON got lambasted for not looking past England for his players. The next manager comes in, brings in a player who's played over 200 games in France and he's deemed not suitable.
My argument about that was always that going overseas did not guarantee a better player. MON valued PL experience, probably overly so for me, but Makoun is as good an example as any of why he did.
In truth if you want to build a successful PL side it needs a balance between the two philosophies.
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You just need to give foreign players time to settle. Nani took an age before he clicked at Man Utd.
He was a young player who had other world class players in the team ahead of him. Makoun was supposed to be a Champions League class defensive midfielder, he wasn't, he was (is) crap.
Downing, Milner and A. Young weren't exactly setting the place on fire the first 6 months they were here. I'm not saying Makoun would've reached their class but I think once he'd adapted to the pace of the game (which a lot of Foreign players take a while to get up to speed to) he'd have been a decent enough midfielder for us.
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It's a good job we did'nt kick out Petrov after 7 games.
If the manager that signed him had left, we probably would have.
Huh? The manager that signed him did leave.
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he struggled to complete simple passes and his tackling was clumsy bordering on reckless.
You must have missed the game up at Old Trafford then, i think he gave the ball away once. His tackling was'nt the best granted, but it may have been that he was getting used to the pace of the Premiership.
If you want to highlight one game then how about bottom of the league Hereford in the League cup this season?
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he struggled to complete simple passes and his tackling was clumsy bordering on reckless.
You must have missed the game up at Old Trafford then, i think he gave the ball away once. His tackling was'nt the best granted, but it may have been that he was getting used to the pace of the Premiership.
If you want to highlight one game then how about bottom of the league Hereford in the League cup this season?
No, he was'nt very good that game, but then again neither were the other 10 players in the team.
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When I said I wasn't impressed with N'zogbia's attitude and overall play the general feeling was give him time yet Makoun get's a few games for everyone to decide he's hopeless
The main difference between the two is what we know of N'Zogbia from Wigan - which is that he can be a very good PL performer. With Makoun, it's more his suitablility to the PL than actual ability that I question.
When I said I wasn't impressed with N'zogbia's attitude and overall play the general feeling was give him time yet Makoun get's a few games for everyone to decide he's hopeless
The main difference between the two is what we know of N'Zogbia from Wigan - which is that he can be a very good PL performer. With Makoun, it's more his suitablility to the PL than actual ability that I question.
i didnt really notice N'zog to much when he was at Wigan, i'm not saying he wasnt any good but i cant remember thinking that he was a right good player and one which i wished we could afford to buy,
the reasons are probably because Wigan are not high profile and i can just take or leave them.
i also think a player starts to become better by word of mouth rather than actually seeing the proof yourself.
take Downing, i never rated him, although he did some nice things every now and again but for me was never the player that people were talking about,
he even made player of the season, although there were not many other players queing up for the accolade admitidly, however he was highly thought of by many, but i still thought he was mostly useless,
even some mates who dont follow Villa were saying 'that Downings playing well' when you asked them why they thought that it was more paper talk maybe a few highlights on MOTD,
i reckon N'Zogbia might be like Downing, totally overated by people who see what they want to see rather than whats actually happening, ask the scousers what they thing of the lump of lard they paid 20 mill for, it was all spin in my view, he's rubbish for England as well.
i hope i'm wrong about N'zogbia, as i would like him to become a good player for us obviously, but at the moment sadly i'm struggling to think of many worse buys in my 40 years of supporting Villa
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sorry for the above post, just noticed its in the Makoun watch thread, not the i hate Downing one
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It's a shame no one in Greece wanted Ireland on loan,the piece of shit is a waste of space,and probably on far more money than Makoun.