Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Legion on October 30, 2011, 04:14:50 PM
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Article in question:
Aston Villa must balance books after Randy Lerner's £200m investment (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/01/aston-villa-randy-lerner-accounts)
Published correction/clarification:
The Guardian published articles about Aston Villa which contained a number of inaccuracies that might have led some readers to believe that Martin O'Neill's management of the football club cost "phenomenal" sums of money with very little by way of success and that as a result he was justifiably dismissed without compensation.
We accept that Martin O'Neill resigned from his position. He would like to make clear that he achieved a very satisfactory conclusion to his claim for constructive dismissal. Under his stewardship Aston Villa progressed from 16th place in the Premier League to three consecutive sixth-place finishes. In his final year the team also reached the final of the Carling Cup and the semi-final of the FA Cup.
Figures cited in the articles were for Reform Acquisitions Limited, the parent company for a number of companies connected with Aston Villa. The only company with which Mr O'Neill had any direct connection as an employee was that responsible for the professional football club. We accept that the group loss was not Mr O'Neill's responsibility. The wage bill for Aston Villa FC was £69m, not £79m.
We stated that investments in player transfers alone amounted to £138m. That figure is for expenditure on players and does not include money raised from sales of players.
We are happy to put the record straight and apologise to Martin O'Neill (Aston Villa reveal cost of O'Neill's time in charge, 1 March, page 2, Sport; Villa must rely on academy players to balance books, 1 March, page 3, Sport; In sickness and in wealth: a guide to the latest accounts at England's top clubs, 19 May, page 4, Sport).
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MON really is a prick.
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I like The Guardian. In fact I've just signed up to their subscription package.
Shame they have to apologise. Tuck it away in a corner below Jimmy Savilles obituary.
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I think O'Neill was a superb manager and never wasted a single penny of any money given to him.
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In my opinion he also takes criticism well, isn't overly litigious and looks nothing like Woody Allen.
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I think O'Neill was a superb manager and never wasted a single penny of any money given to him.
Irony eh? "Irony is wasted on the stupid"
We are deep in the shit as a result of what and whom?
Is it O'neill's fault we sold Milner, Ash, Downing and Barry?
Sure he did not buy too many great players but he did achieve a lot more than present encumbents. Slow slow very slow build again, maybe?
Football is a crazy business where people spend vast amounts on players that do not deliver. O'Neill is more a victim of easy money and the issuing of it by people who should have been more scrupulous in their attention of financial matters. MON was symptom and Randy ain't got the cure.
Randy is still whistling at our fortune in a distant land that only has eyes for itself!
Someone other than MON has to stand up and admit their mistakes; and apparent indifference!
We are better than this..and deserve better.
Presently we are a sports car in the garage with the wheels off, gently turning over, with the doors locked and a tube through the window.
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Is that some strange attempt at a poem?
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I'd like to thank mon for the many wins we got in march every year, the glorious flowing football we played and for the many trophies. Oh and that fantastic night out in moscow
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I wonder if he intends to track down every single bad word ever written about him and sue every medium it's written in.
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I wonder if he intends to track down every single bad word ever written about him and sue every medium it's written in.
Shouldn't be too hard, as the media tends to fawn over him. There can't be that much criticism around.
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Why is MON so uptight about his record? Out of the last five managers he had the best resources at his disposal, but we should not let context get in the way of three "6th place finishes".
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I would like to thank Martin O'Neill for matching John Gregory's level of success.
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I wonder if he intends to track down every single bad word ever written about him and sue every medium it's written in.
The poor man's unemployed, he has to do something to fill the empty hours of his life plus any money he gets will help to top up his Job Seekers Allowance.
I remember reading somewhere a few years back that MON spent his spare time reading law books. Now it looks like he's putting it into use.
Good to see the curse on Villa ex-managers is still working and long may it continue in this case.
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Is that some strange attempt at a poem?
Maybe a result of sniffing too much carbon monoxide?
We are not going anywhere with the present set-up.
Randy wants his investment back. Simple as that.
He, as are many others, is in a bad financial state and we are getting the stick for it.
MoN is no more. We have to look to the future and my crystal ball is well clouded right now.
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Just found this article (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1301712/Buy-buy-Martin-How-ONeill-spent-120million-years-Aston-Villa.html) from the Daily Heil which details all his signings - net spend £81.85m on transfer fees. Must be right as I can't find anything to say he sued them. Some cra
pcking players in that lot
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He is such a little bitch.
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He is such a little bitch.
I hope you're ready to back that up in court. ;)
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Waah waah waah, someone said something nasty about me so i'll scweam and scweam until i'm sthick. Twunt.
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Thank God his 2 successors have been so great for us.
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Anyone think he is a little concerned that no club with a vacancy over the past 12 months has gone anywhere near him? Aside from the Porn Barons, that is. Doesn't quite tally with the image he (and a few of his sycophants) like to hold onto, the maverick manager, this quirky genius who virtually guarantees success everywhere he goes.
Maybe this is desperation on his part - 'I'm not that bad, honest!'
Or maybe he's just got a taste for it now.
A shame. As I said at the time- and even with some pretty major shortcomings- he'll probably be remembered as one of our better post war managers (though nowhere near the elite level of say, a Saunders or Atkinson). Maybe that owes as much to the timing of his arrival as much as anything else, the hope of that period.
Opportunity wasted - by him and by us. I wonder whether he regrets it now.
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Under our current financial constraints, given the choice of MON (with Robertson and Walford), GH (with Gary Mac and Sid) or AM (with Grant, Kevin MacDonald and Sid), MON would be last on my list. His greatest achievement at Villa was to fool so many for so long that he actually knew what he was doing.
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I would like to apologise too - don't know what for but he is bound to find something . Football genius x
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I think he's holding out to see what happens after Capello moves on next year - maybe he still thinks he's good enough for the England job, or to take over at Spurs when 'Arry gets it. On both counts I think he'll be disappointed.
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I'd like to thank mon for the many wins we got in march every year, the glorious flowing football we played and for the many trophies. Oh and that fantastic night out in moscow
I'd like to thank him for letting me walk out of Old Trafford with a smile on my face for the first time after beating them 1-0, seeing us put 5 past Small Heath and the last minute goals at their place. I enjoyed the three top 6 finishes, seeing Ashley Young, Downing and Milner in the side. Even a cup final and semi final in the same season were enjoyable.
The other side of the coin and all that.....
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What a
prick top man.
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Ironic that it was his signings that probably avoided a vacancy at his beloved Sunderland yesterday.
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I'd like to thank mon for the many wins we got in march every year, the glorious flowing football we played and for the many trophies. Oh and that fantastic night out in moscow
I'd like to thank him for letting me walk out of Old Trafford with a smile on my face for the first time after beating them 1-0, seeing us put 5 past Small Heath and the last minute goals at their place. I enjoyed the three top 6 finishes, seeing Ashley Young, Downing and Milner in the side. Even a cup final and semi final in the same season were enjoyable.
The other side of the coin and all that.....
Seconded. Every manager has limitations and MON's was getting Aston Villa to 6th in the modern-day premier league.
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And buying a barrel load of shite like Curtis Davies
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Don't forget Marlon 'F' Harewood.
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I imagine the fact that the Guardian published the offending article on MON's 59th birthday caused him considerable upset.
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"Constructive dismissal is when an employee is forced to quit their job against their will because of their employer's conduct." - Directgov website.
*cheery whistling emoticon*
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Anyone think he is a little concerned that no club with a vacancy over the past 12 months has gone anywhere near him?
Curbishley and O'Neill have both struggled to find work since suing for constructive dismissal.
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As with most things in life, an evaluation of the MON eras will never be a black-or-white, good-or-bad appraisal. Bloody hell he had shortcomings - an inability to learn from mistakes about team selection leading to tiredness, a style of football that was probably never going to take us further than where it did, training methods Ron Noades would have found a bit dated, the least imaginative and occasionally downright wasteful transfer policy imaginable - but he certainly helped galvanise the club at the time, and got a lot out of players whose true level we're probably seeing now. For all the shit he's helped land us in, he gave us some great memories at a time in the club's history sorely lacking in them. It probably wasn't worth it, but I can't help but wish it was.
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I wonder whether he regrets it now.
That's a great question that we'll never know the answer to. If he was slightly less stubborn and learnt from his mistakes and therefore showed more willingness manage the finances a bit better then he'd almost certainly still be at the club.
I guess it's not a common trait of a manager to deliberately change but it would not have taken much for him to be a much better manager.
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"Constructive dismissal is when an employee is forced to quit their job against their will because of their employer's conduct." - Directgov website.
*cheery whistling emoticon*
Six weeks away and look what brings you back....
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Martin, top tip for you. If you are so sensitive about an incorrect 'net spend' figure in an article from March, then don't force a correction to be published six months later which reminds everyone how much cash was lavished on you for a 6th place finish.
The man lacks class, and isn't a patch on Sir Graham, Sir Brian or Big Ron in terms of character or results.
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Or Ron Saunders, Tony Barton...
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I doubt very much that anyone will get the chance to accuse McLeish of overspending on new players, ever!
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I doubt very much that anyone will get the chance to accuse McLeish of overspending on new players, ever!
You'd think so wouldn't you, but the new players that have come in so far haven't yet proven to be value for money.
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For me he ranks below Saunders, Atkinson, Little and Taylor. Can't decide if he's above Gregory or not. Both did similar things. Both took the team into the top 4 but then fell away, both got to a cup final and lost, both wasted pots of money, both walked out on us.
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I'd have him ahead of Gregory -but definitely in that bracket.
Gregory finishing 6th at a time when there was far less competition was much more of a waste, IMO. We went from top of the league at the start if 1998 to finishing below West Ham FFS. He also inherited a far better side -relative to the other teams in the division- than O'Neill did.
Gregory's biggest/best purchases were the likes of Merson and Dublin. Internationals - and good players- but with a limited shelf life when we acquired them. O'Neill brought in the likes of Ash, Milner and Downing. It can be said with a fair degree of accuracy that we seen them develop from promising young players to two of the best players in the country -and established internationals- on his watch (I accept that applies more to the first two as Downing was already an international. And in truth, we only seen the best of him under Houllier).
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Why do people talk about net spend? He did spend £120 and half of it on complete dross. It's not OK if you sell some players and spend that money on mediocre others. It does not mean you have spent 0.
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I wouldn't want to under appreciate what O Neill achieved for us. He managed to register out 2nd highest points total in the Premier League, with 64 in his final season. That was one more point than Little's 4th finish.
Granted though, we played far better football under Brian though. We were very unlucky though, because 64 points has been enough for 4th place in previous years.
The fact he's not found work, is not a judgement against his record or ability as a manager, but the fact, Liverpool aside, there's been no job come up he'd have actually been interested in any how. No one here can know how many jobs he's turned down, aside from the West Ham job because Tumnus and Porno Dwarf want the world to know when they break wind, and do anything in fact.
To compare him to Gregory isn't really fair. O Neill managed 3 consecutive 6th placed finishes, and got over the 60 point mark in all of those. Gregory's highest points total was 58. With more luck and a decent ref, we could have won a trophy too, and then he'd have matched what Atkinson and Little won.
Yes he's a prick, but he was a good manager and even with the squad as it is now, he'd do a lot better than McLeish and Houllier. I think O Neill with our current group could get us a minimum of 50 points. I think under McLeish we'll scrape over 40. Hopefully"
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ps- If we get in financial trouble, it's the man who signs the cheques to blame, not the man who writes the shopping list. Just as, much as I think O Leary is the scrotum of the devil, it was Risdale to blame for what happens to Leeds. Again, Randy's failure to get anyone up on high at the club with any football knowledge, and his lack of any footballing knowledge himself has caused a lot of problems.
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"Constructive dismissal is when an employee is forced to quit their job against their will because of their employer's conduct." - Directgov website.
*cheery whistling emoticon*
Six weeks away and look what brings you back....
I spotted Legion's tweet and was hoping to read your mea culpa on having been mistaken about O'Neill's constructive dismissal.
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"Constructive dismissal is when an employee is forced to quit their job against their will because of their employer's conduct." - Directgov website.
*cheery whistling emoticon*
Six weeks away and look what brings you back....
He would have been forced to wait an awful lot longer for something good to happen at Villa!
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You only have to look at the calibre of clubs he is now linked with to see that his stock has plummeted.
From Liverpool (whilst still with us) to the Porn Barons, then Fulham, Blackburn. And more recently the likes of Forest and Leicester.
If monetary constrictions, not being able to push for top 4, or perceived boardroom interference were reason enough for him to bail on us, I'm not sure why he wanted the West Ham job. But Brady and co believed they had him in the bag- Keane even joined on that basis. It was only when they handled the situation with their customary tact and decorum -and word got out in the nationals that he was eying up a position not actually vacant- that he distanced himself from it.
Some half decent jobs have come up in the period he's been out of the game and he hasn't even been in the running. In this day and age it's virtually impossible to keep a secret, so if Newcastle, Fulham or Blackburn had approached him -and he'd said no- it would be all over the back pages.
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As with most things in life, an evaluation of the MON eras will never be a black-or-white, good-or-bad appraisal. Bloody hell he had shortcomings - an inability to learn from mistakes about team selection leading to tiredness, a style of football that was probably never going to take us further than where it did, training methods Ron Noades would have found a bit dated, the least imaginative and occasionally downright wasteful transfer policy imaginable - but he certainly helped galvanise the club at the time, and got a lot out of players whose true level we're probably seeing now. For all the shit he's helped land us in, he gave us some great memories at a time in the club's history sorely lacking in them. It probably wasn't worth it, but I can't help but wish it was.
Spot on, and a very balanced view, you want to like him but you just can't bring yourself to. If there's two things we miss its his personality and Leadership.
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I'd settle for 6th this season to be fair to him. Throw in a couple of Wembley appearances and I'd be well chuffed. A lot of this revisionist thinking is down to the perception of the manner of his departure. It;s a little fickle ((c) DOL) to forget all the pluses during his reign.
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"Constructive dismissal is when an employee is forced to quit their job against their will because of their employer's conduct." - Directgov website.
*cheery whistling emoticon*
Six weeks away and look what brings you back....
I spotted Legion's tweet and was hoping to read your mea culpa on having been mistaken about O'Neill's constructive dismissal.
O'Neill LMA statement (http://www.leaguemanagers.com/news/news-6816.html)
The League Managers Association (LMA) is able to confirm that Martin O’Neill OBE and Aston Villa have finalised all issues in relation to his departure from the club in August 2010.
The matter was placed before the FA Premier League Managers’ Arbitration Tribunal, but was resolved during the course of the hearing.
Premier League managers' contracts contain a clause requiring the parties to mediate their differences in the event of a dispute, and, if the dispute cannot be resolved at mediation, that the case moves forward to the Premier League Managers’ Arbitration Tribunal.
The Tribunal is ideally placed to resolve disputes of this nature, combining the skills and experience of prominent individuals from football and the law.
Commenting after the hearing, Martin O’Neill said:
"It has taken a long time to deal with this matter but I am pleased that all issues have now been amicably finalised. I am very proud to have managed Aston Villa and I wish the club all the best for the future. I would also like to thank the LMA and my outstanding legal team, led by Paul Gilroy QC, and Geldards, solicitors, for their support and hard work in bringing my case to this very satisfactory conclusion. I am now looking forward to the future and getting back into football management.”
Care to point out in where constructive dismissal is mentioned here? As I must have missed it.
Compare and contrast with this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/feb/17/alan-curbishley-tribunal-west-ham)
"We can confirm that Alan Curbishley and West Ham have finalised all issues in relation to his departure from the club. The Managers' arbitration tribunal of the FA Premier League previously had unanimously upheld Alan Curbishley's claim of wrongful dismissal against West Ham United Football Club.
"He resigned at the beginning of the 2008-09 season after the club sold Anton Ferdinand and subsequently George McCartney to Sunderland against his wishes.
"The tribunal upheld Alan Curbishley's right to have ultimate sole authority in relation to the sale and purchase of players, found that the conduct of the club amounted to a fundamental breach of contract and that Alan Curbishley was therefore entitled to resign."
Surely if - as you seem desperate to maintain- O'Neill was badly wronged by the club, lost the authority to dictate transfer decisions or had his position undermined by Faulkner that was in breech of his original terms of employment this would have all come out in the wash?
Or are you arguing that the club paid him off? If they did, what does that say about the bloke when he accepts a cash windfall rather than clearing his name?
It was said - by RL and the General- that the reason he left was he wasn't willing/ able to get a handle on the wages situation. It was also around this time that his longterm summer target McGeady joined Spartak Moscow. Coincidence? Possibly. But with three wingers already on the books, a spiralling wage bill and a player who -lets be honest- doesn't come into the top class category, the balance of probability still rests with him sulking off when he didn't get exactly what he wanted for a change.
Any payment from the club might be down to the specific monetary details of his contract with us, either relating to notice (or lack of) or the ever contentious image rights. The club might have been (understandably) reluctant to give extra money to a guy who walked out on us, but in the end a compromise was reached. For all we know, the settlement might have been a lot less than what he was initially requesting.
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I simply read the opening post on this thread.
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Any payment from the club might be down to the specific monetary details of his contract with us, either relating to notice (or lack of) or the ever contentious image rights. The club might have been (understandably) reluctant to give extra money to a guy who walked out on us, but in the end a compromise was reached. For all we know, the settlement might have been a lot less than what he was initially requesting.
Agreed that it's a possibility about the settlement. One of my observations on life in general is that certain people, regardless of the facts, have the gift of the gab. I know people whose input into certain things has at best been limited, but to hear them tell it, they ran the whole show.
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Oh great, another thread to bash Martin O'Neill.
We don't come across as a jilted lover.
NoSireeBob
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"Constructive dismissal is when an employee is forced to quit their job against their will because of their employer's conduct." - Directgov website.
*cheery whistling emoticon*
Six weeks away and look what brings you back....
I spotted Legion's tweet and was hoping to read your mea culpa on having been mistaken about O'Neill's constructive dismissal.
And yet nothing else has happened that you consider worthy of comment. It's also interesting that you seem to be pleased a former employee apparently 'won' a case which cost the club you support a large sum.
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Martin, top tip for you. If you are so sensitive about an incorrect 'net spend' figure in an article from March, then don't force a correction to be published six months later which reminds everyone how much cash was lavished on you for a 6th place finish.
The man lacks class, and isn't a patch on Sir Graham, Sir Brian or Big Ron in terms of character or results.
MON isn't a patch on Ron Atkinson, a racist, in terms of character?
What utter shite.
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Oh great, another thread to bash Martin O'Neill.
We don't come across as a jilted lover.
NoSireeBob
As opposed to bashing the current manager.
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Martin, top tip for you. If you are so sensitive about an incorrect 'net spend' figure in an article from March, then don't force a correction to be published six months later which reminds everyone how much cash was lavished on you for a 6th place finish.
The man lacks class, and isn't a patch on Sir Graham, Sir Brian or Big Ron in terms of character or results.
MON isn't a patch on Ron Atkinson, a racist, in terms of character?
What utter shite.
I'm not going to defend Ron for what he said, because it was offensive, stupid and racist, but I'm not going to write him off as a [complete] racist though.
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I simply read the opening post on this thread.
It's an odd constructive dismissal claim that doesn't mention constructive dismissal either prior to or at the conclusion of the tribunal, wouldn't you agree?
As for the Guardian's new slant on things - who knows- maybe they just ran with what MON told/ intimated to them. Or got the wrong end of the stick. Going from one extreme t' other. It wouldn't be the first time they got something wrong, as they admit themselves. ;)
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It takes a somewhat odd Villa fan to turn up on this thread and gloat over this. Especially when - yet again - he's actually entirely wrong in his odd interpretation of facts.
I'm not even remotely surprised to see which Villa fan it is.
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O'Neill loves cock. If I'm wrong let him sue me.
(My real name is Adam Drew)
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It takes a somewhat odd Villa fan to turn up on this thread and gloat over this. Especially when - yet again - he's actually entirely wrong in his odd interpretation of facts.
I'm not even remotely surprised to see which Villa fan it is.
So a tribunal finds in his favour, a national newspaper sets the record straight about some of the falsehoods taken as watertight evidence on here - so you then resort to suggest that there's something weird about someone who's been right all along coming back to point it out?
Weird.
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It takes a somewhat odd Villa fan to turn up on this thread and gloat over this. Especially when - yet again - he's actually entirely wrong in his odd interpretation of facts.
I'm not even remotely surprised to see which Villa fan it is.
So a tribunal finds in his favour, a national newspaper sets the record straight about some of the falsehoods taken as watertight evidence on here - so you then resort to suggest that there's something weird about someone who's been right all along coming back to point it out?
Weird.
Nobody ever said he was "justifiably dismissed," which seems his main bone of contention.
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ONeil had one big asset, he could get average players to play above themselves for a sustained period, and he needed that skill. If he had departed the club in an acceptable time frame i would not be super critical, he tried he failed, it happens.
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As I understand it, it was a compromise agreement. The club wanted to pay him nowt, O'Neill presumably wanted his full £3m, and they settled somewhere between those two figures. Of course O'Neill would describe this as a victory.
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ONeil had one big asset, he could get average players to play above themselves for a sustained period, and he needed that skill. If he had departed the club in an acceptable time frame i would not be super critical, he tried he failed, it happens.
Some average players he did.
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"Constructive dismissal is when an employee is forced to quit their job against their will because of their employer's conduct." - Directgov website.
*cheery whistling emoticon*
Six weeks away and look what brings you back....
I spotted Legion's tweet and was hoping to read your mea culpa on having been mistaken about O'Neill's constructive dismissal.
And yet nothing else has happened that you consider worthy of comment. It's also interesting that you seem to be pleased a former employee apparently 'won' a case which cost the club you support a large sum.
The only thing I find pleasing about this is that the facts are beginning to come to the fore, I don't think it benefits the club that we ignore or deny the facts.
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Oh great, another thread to bash Martin O'Neill.
We don't come across as a jilted lover.
NoSireeBob
erm......he's the one who's just presumably spent a fortune on lawyers getting the Guardian to confirm he left us and not the other way round.. Sort of thing someone like Jordon would sue for - why would you care unless you were a complete egomaniac?
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"Constructive dismissal is when an employee is forced to quit their job against their will because of their employer's conduct." - Directgov website.
*cheery whistling emoticon*
Six weeks away and look what brings you back....
I spotted Legion's tweet and was hoping to read your mea culpa on having been mistaken about O'Neill's constructive dismissal.
And yet nothing else has happened that you consider worthy of comment. It's also interesting that you seem to be pleased a former employee apparently 'won' a case which cost the club you support a large sum.
The only thing I find pleasing about this is that the facts are beginning to come to the fore, I don't think it benefits the club that we ignore or deny the facts.
And we all know your definition of the word 'fact'. It really is laughable that the only time you've come on here for so long is to defend a man who acts against the best interests of the club.
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"Constructive dismissal is when an employee is forced to quit their job against their will because of their employer's conduct." - Directgov website.
*cheery whistling emoticon*
Six weeks away and look what brings you back....
I spotted Legion's tweet and was hoping to read your mea culpa on having been mistaken about O'Neill's constructive dismissal.
And yet nothing else has happened that you consider worthy of comment. It's also interesting that you seem to be pleased a former employee apparently 'won' a case which cost the club you support a large sum.
The only thing I find pleasing about this is that the facts are beginning to come to the fore, I don't think it benefits the club that we ignore or deny the facts.
And we all know your definition of the word 'fact'. It really is laughable that the only time you've come on here for so long is to defend a man who acts against the best interests of the club.
I don't agree that Martin O'Neill acts against the best interests of the club, that's a daft assertion. He either was entitled to compensation or he wasn't and he either was misrepresented in the Guardian (and on here) or he wasn't.
I think he was doing a more than decent job until Faulkner was appointed CEO and the board decided that they couldn't afford to compete, even on the relatively modest (Premier League) terms they had up till that point. An average £20m investment in transfer fess per season and £89m in wages wasn't in anyway excessive for where we were in our development, based on the boards stated ambitions.
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If walking out five days before the start of the season then suing us isn't "acting against the best interests of the club" I wouldn't like to see what is. You've made it clear where your allegiance lies and you've been able to type out your favourite numbers again, so don't hesitate to return next time he gets a mention.
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If walking out five days before the start of the season then suing us isn't "acting against the best interests of the club" I wouldn't like to see what is. You've made it clear where your allegiance lies and you've been able to type out your favourite numbers again, so don't hesitate to return next time he gets a mention.
Your "walked out" is my "untenable position", it really isn't so hard to understand why i disagree with you unless you think your opinion is the only one that counts. I've only popped in today but it's fun to see that disagreeing with you apparently equates to a lack of allegiance for Villa, Do you ever worry that you might be a wee bit too far up your own arse?
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If walking out five days before the start of the season then suing us isn't "acting against the best interests of the club" I wouldn't like to see what is. You've made it clear where your allegiance lies and you've been able to type out your favourite numbers again, so don't hesitate to return next time he gets a mention.
Your "walked out" is my "untenable position", it really isn't so hard to understand why i disagree with you unless you think your opinion is the only one that counts. I've only popped in today but it's fun to see that disagreeing with you apparently equates to a lack of allegiance for Villa, Do you ever worry that you might be a wee bit too far up your own arse?
Any chance you might talk about something I've actually written instead of stamping your foot because the nasty man's saying things about your hero? Disagreeing with me doesn't mean anything - O'Neill's actions showed his true feelings, and continue to do so. Even by your standards that last bit is pathetic.
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If walking out five days before the start of the season then suing us isn't "acting against the best interests of the club" I wouldn't like to see what is. You've made it clear where your allegiance lies and you've been able to type out your favourite numbers again, so don't hesitate to return next time he gets a mention.
Your "walked out" is my "untenable position", it really isn't so hard to understand why i disagree with you unless you think your opinion is the only one that counts.
Any chance you might talk about something I've actually written instead of stamping your foot because the nasty man's saying things about your hero?
Not my argument, I know, but how about this bit?
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For clarity, the "untenable position" comment.
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We all know when he walked out. Given the timing, I fail to see how malice didn't play at least a big part in that decision.
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For the sake of argument, I wonder whether the FA Premier League Managers’ Arbitration Tribunal would find in favour of David Moyes had he walked out on the eve of this season.
Or maybe 'arry- who probably expected a bit more than Scott Parker and Adebeyor on loan after Tottingham's CL exploits last season.
We'll never know, of course, because they- unlike MON- didn't walk out on their clubs. Despite the new financial challenges they too had to contend with.
And is it now grounds enough for a manager to walk out if he's told 'no' to one of his transfer requests. Really? Has such a contract ever existed -in sport or any other profession- whereby the manager's every whim has to be catered for, regardless of the financial position of the company at the time?
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We all know when he walked out. Given the timing, I fail to see how malice didn't play at least a big part in that decision.
Why is the argument continuing? I do not see anything better comtemporaneously. Who will sort it out?
MON is gone..what is the solution? or who is the solution?
Randy certainly has to make a statement!
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We all know when he walked out. Given the timing, I fail to see how malice didn't play at least a big part in that decision.
I'm still not entirely convinced by the malice angle.
It's possible, sure.
But I think it's more likely that a few things came to a head all at once:
*Not being able to get McGeady and Keane
*Not being able to shift the deadwood- many of whom he'd fallen out with in some way shape or form and still having to see their ugly mugs in training
*The reaction of the players in pre season/ condition of Dunne et.c
*The realisation that he was unlikely to top 6th due to the competition in the league now, and how that may impact on Brand O'Neill
All this, plus missing out on the Redscouse job earlier in the summer (when he thought he was a shoe in) might have sapped his enthusiasm and motivation. Could have been a slow building thing over the summer -maybe even as far back as the Chelsea 7-1 game and subsequent fallout. Yet the realisation might have only hit home early August that he absolutely no longer wanted to continue.
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I am with KevinGage on this one in that I think a few matters had come to a head. I would love to know what happened in late July / August 2010, but assume the true story will never reach us mere fans.
In addition to KevinGage's points, above, I have always felt that the impending sale of Milner was a key factor, since this was probably (in my memory) the first time that he was not going to get his own way on a football matter. IIRC MON and Randy had a chat around the time of the Valencia friendly and an agreement was reached for them to continue working together and then a few days later MON had gone. Something must have pushed him to change his mind in that short period.
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It's possible Pat.
But MON gave every impression he was on board with the sale - he was the first one to publicly say Milner wanted out. Before Jimmy himself, even.
The other part of that deal -the Ireland part- is also often flagged as a potential cause for MON's walk out. The suggestion being that MON was somehow being 'forced' into accepting Ireland, rather than extra cash.
But at the height of the GH/ Ireland fun and games last year, Ireland himself said he had no axe to grind with Houllier, as it wasn't Houllier who had wanted him at the club. It was the previous manager.
The only impact I can see the Milner deal having is that MON might have felt that should be sacrifice enough -a sign of goodwill that he was willing to bend with the new financial requirements- and should be allowed more leeway to bring in the players he felt he needed. Even if he wasn't able to ship out Luke Young, NRC, Beye, Sidwell, Davies and co.
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Anyone think he is a little concerned that no club with a vacancy over the past 12 months has gone anywhere near him?
Curbishley and O'Neill have both struggled to find work since suing for constructive dismissal.
yeah but John Gregory hasn't...
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All the points you raise make a lot of sense Kevin and also those of Pat but in my book they only set the impression of malice of his actions towards the club and the chairman in context.
Your wife might leave you for a host of unreasonable actions on your part but she does not have to drop a match through the letter box before she climbs in her car, not I should hasten to add that that has any bearing whatsoever on the departure of Martin O'Neill who clearly must have had excellent reasons and total justification in the actions he took.
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I wonder if he's got his legal team working on the westham story yet , where he was "alleged" to have stabbed Avram Grant in the back? Seems to be taking a long time to reach court. I mean if you were worried about your reputation being in tatters you'd think he'd be concentrating on that one, not a slight case of "who left who".
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Your wife might leave you for a host of unreasonable actions on your part..
After all the money given to her for housekeeping, the fact that she couldn't cook and had been found out, despite telling her friends how "sintillating" her gourmet meals were, the truth is her home cooking was normally beans on toast with a blob of brown sauce on the side.
To her credit, she always chose well when you went out for dinner.
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Maybe I am a terribly shallow person, but I can't remember changing my mind about somebody so completely in such a short space of time.
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Your wife might leave you for a host of unreasonable actions on your part..
After all the money given to her for housekeeping, the fact that she couldn't cook and had been found out, despite telling her friends how "sintillating" her gourmet meals were, the truth is her home cooking was normally beans on toast with a blob of brown sauce on the side.
To her credit, she always chose well when you went out for dinner.
She had the funds at her disposal to get the finest ingredients that were out there which will make me never forget the day she served up a tough old Hare. I thought I was getting something really special that week, something with Defoeinoise potatoes. Then there were here attempts at making a Stu...18 months it took her!
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MON was a one recipe man. Went to Leceister and made a stunning traditional fish and chips with mushy peas. Then went north, given a bit more money and made scottish salmon new potatoes and broccoli that the locals loved, then came to us with even more money per head, and served up Dover sole, scalloped potatoes and petit pois. Trouble is you don't win michelan stars with what's basically fish and chips but with slightly more expensive ingrediants.
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I'd like to thank mon for the many wins we got in march every year, the glorious flowing football we played and for the many trophies. Oh and that fantastic night out in moscow
I'd like to thank him for letting me walk out of Old Trafford with a smile on my face for the first time after beating them 1-0, seeing us put 5 past Small Heath and the last minute goals at their place. I enjoyed the three top 6 finishes, seeing Ashley Young, Downing and Milner in the side. Even a cup final and semi final in the same season were enjoyable.
The other side of the coin and all that.....
well said clampy , there were many highs as well as the lows and his reign was far from a disaster although i think he should have achieved more given his spending.
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I'd like to thank mon for the many wins we got in march every year, the glorious flowing football we played and for the many trophies. Oh and that fantastic night out in moscow
I'd like to thank him for letting me walk out of Old Trafford with a smile on my face for the first time after beating them 1-0, seeing us put 5 past Small Heath and the last minute goals at their place. I enjoyed the three top 6 finishes, seeing Ashley Young, Downing and Milner in the side. Even a cup final and semi final in the same season were enjoyable.
The other side of the coin and all that.....
well said clampy , there were many highs as well as the lows and his reign was far from a disaster although i think he should have achieved more given his spending.
And that's the crux of an argument the two sides of which will never agree on.
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MON was a one recipe man. Went to Leceister and made a stunning traditional fish and chips with mushy peas. Then went north, given a bit more money and made scottish salmon new potatoes and broccoli that the locals loved, then came to us with even more money per head, and served up Dover sole, scalloped potatoes and petit pois. Trouble is you don't win michelan stars with what's basically fish and chips but with slightly more expensive ingrediants.
Yes you can: http://www.britishgastropubs.co.uk/businesses/the_hand___flowers/
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"Constructive dismissal is when an employee is forced to quit their job against their will because of their employer's conduct." - Directgov website.
*cheery whistling emoticon*
Six weeks away and look what brings you back....
I spotted Legion's tweet and was hoping to read your mea culpa on having been mistaken about O'Neill's constructive dismissal.
And yet nothing else has happened that you consider worthy of comment. It's also interesting that you seem to be pleased a former employee apparently 'won' a case which cost the club you support a large sum.
A very, very large sum ... you ain't seen me roite!
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MON was a one recipe man. Went to Leceister and made a stunning traditional fish and chips with mushy peas. Then went north, given a bit more money and made scottish salmon new potatoes and broccoli that the locals loved, then came to us with even more money per head, and served up Dover sole, scalloped potatoes and petit pois. Trouble is you don't win michelan stars with what's basically fish and chips but with slightly more expensive ingrediants.
Gnasher, it was by far more funnier the first time round, but indeed a good analogy.
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Maybe I am a terribly shallow person, but I can't remember changing my mind about somebody so completely in such a short space of time.
I can honestly say I didn't have to change my mind because I'd long been of the opinion that he was arrogant, obnoxious, and massively overrated when he was still here. I haven't seen anything since to persuade me otherwise.
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Is that some strange attempt at a poem?
Maybe a result of sniffing too much carbon monoxide?
We are not going anywhere with the present set-up.
Randy wants his investment back. Simple as that.
He, as are many others, is in a bad financial state and we are getting the stick for it.
MoN is no more. We have to look to the future and my crystal ball is well clouded right now.
Much better. Are you Benjamin Zephania?
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MON was a one recipe man. Went to Leceister and made a stunning traditional fish and chips with mushy peas. Then went north, given a bit more money and made scottish salmon new potatoes and broccoli that the locals loved, then came to us with even more money per head, and served up Dover sole, scalloped potatoes and petit pois. Trouble is you don't win michelan stars with what's basically fish and chips but with slightly more expensive ingrediants.
Gnasher, it was by far more funnier the first time round, but indeed a good analogy.
Yes. I wonder who thought it up.
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It would be interesting to know on what grounds MON won his case of constructive dismissal. It was probably the untenable situation regarding the withdrawal of transfer funds.
I suppose though we will find this out at the same time we find out why we paid dablues compensation for 'not' tapping up the current manager i.e when we win the Champions league.
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In my opinion he also takes criticism well, isn't overly litigious and looks nothing like Woody Allen.
No way to all of these , and he's got fantastic football acumen too - he knows how to create a team playing good, passing football.
We will never replace Martin O'Neill - he's just Clough reincarnated with similar successes too.
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There's a plaque to MON's opening abilities of a CT scanner unit at little Aston Hospital. I've seen it today.
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Got to be careful with those plaques. News today says 97.6% of them get stolen and melted down for scrap. The remaining 2.4% get painted over.
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Is that some strange attempt at a poem?
Maybe a result of sniffing too much carbon monoxide?
We are not going anywhere with the present set-up.
Randy wants his investment back. Simple as that.
He, as are many others, is in a bad financial state and we are getting the stick for it.
MoN is no more. We have to look to the future and my crystal ball is well clouded right now.
Much better. Are you Benjamin Zephania?
Benjaaaman? No sadly, but I do remember Wrentham St Baths!
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It would be interesting to know on what grounds MON won his case of constructive dismissal. It was probably the untenable situation regarding the withdrawal of transfer funds.
Apologies for picking hairs but I don't think MON did win a case for constructive dismissal. A settlement was definitely paid out but there was no verdict in the case. Apparently if you speak to Villa and specifically Faulkner they are also happy with the conclusion of the case, it's just that the media have been less inclined to print that side of the story.
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Martin, top tip for you. If you are so sensitive about an incorrect 'net spend' figure in an article from March, then don't force a correction to be published six months later which reminds everyone how much cash was lavished on you for a 6th place finish.
The man lacks class, and isn't a patch on Sir Graham, Sir Brian or Big Ron in terms of character or results.
MON isn't a patch on Ron Atkinson, a racist, in terms of character?
What utter shite.
In your opinion. For what its worth. Which isn't much.
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MON was a one recipe man. Went to Leceister and made a stunning traditional fish and chips with mushy peas. Then went north, given a bit more money and made scottish salmon new potatoes and broccoli that the locals loved, then came to us with even more money per head, and served up Dover sole, scalloped potatoes and petit pois. Trouble is you don't win michelan stars with what's basically fish and chips but with slightly more expensive ingrediants.
Gnasher, it was by far more funnier the first time round, but indeed a good analogy.
Yes. I wonder who thought it up.
well i think we can safely say it wasn't you.
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Martin O'Neill, you're a twat. Sue me.
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One sentence in defence of MON: it wasn't all bad. His record was decent; I wish it was better. Many of his signings were good; but too many were overpaid donkeys. And his football isn't as Joe Kinnear-ish as sometimes portrayed.
I was fooled. I thought that he was a very good manager. Towards the end it was obvious that he had run out of ideas, and that he was overrated. He was merely a decent manager, good at his thing, and stuck to his ideas. But he had clear limitations, and some of his ideas were very out-dated.
But what really stains his reputation, is his behaviour before, during and after his resignation. Its lack of decency, elegance and grace showed that he after five years at the club still only thought about himself, and never cared for us. For a Villa fan that's hard to take.
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One sentence in defence of MON: it wasn't all bad. His record was decent; I wish it was better. Many of his signings were good; but too many were overpaid donkeys. And his football isn't as Joe Kinnear-ish as sometimes portrayed.
I was fooled. I thought that he was a very good manager. Towards the end it was obvious that he had run out of ideas, and that he was overrated. He was merely a decent manager, good at his thing, and stuck to his ideas. But he had clear limitations, and some of his ideas were very out-dated.
But what really stains his reputation, is his behaviour before, during and after his resignation. Its lack of decency, elegance and grace showed that he after five years at the club still only thought about himself, and never cared for us. For a Villa fan that's hard to take.
An excellent, reasoned summation.
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One sentence in defence of MON: it wasn't all bad. His record was decent; I wish it was better. Many of his signings were good; but too many were overpaid donkeys. And his football isn't as Joe Kinnear-ish as sometimes portrayed.
I was fooled. I thought that he was a very good manager. Towards the end it was obvious that he had run out of ideas, and that he was overrated. He was merely a decent manager, good at his thing, and stuck to his ideas. But he had clear limitations, and some of his ideas were very out-dated.
But what really stains his reputation, is his behaviour before, during and after his resignation. Its lack of decency, elegance and grace showed that he after five years at the club still only thought about himself, and never cared for us. For a Villa fan that's hard to take.
An excellent, reasoned summation.
I've tried to put it many ways over the past year or so but can never quite word it correctly, this however has it bang on.
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Mostly agreed
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One sentence in defence of MON: it wasn't all bad. His record was decent; I wish it was better. Many of his signings were good; but too many were overpaid donkeys. And his football isn't as Joe Kinnear-ish as sometimes portrayed.
I was fooled. I thought that he was a very good manager. Towards the end it was obvious that he had run out of ideas, and that he was overrated. He was merely a decent manager, good at his thing, and stuck to his ideas. But he had clear limitations, and some of his ideas were very out-dated.
But what really stains his reputation, is his behaviour before, during and after his resignation. Its lack of decency, elegance and grace showed that he after five years at the club still only thought about himself, and never cared for us. For a Villa fan that's hard to take.
An excellent, reasoned summation.
The trouble is those overpaid donkeys, albeit sanctioned by Lerner, have effectively ruined our chances for the foreseeable future.
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It's a subject that will remain divisive for many years to come. Those who still think the sun shines out of Magic Martin's arse aren't going to be swayed at this juncture. Likewise, those who were critical of the bloke. Or outright disliked him.
Eigentor sums up most of my feelings on the subject, but the biggest emotion I still feel about the whole thing is regret. Regret that he didn't at least stick around for another 12 months (whichever way you want to cut it, the manner of his departure was very unsatisfactory). But mostly regret that the old coot couldn't change.
Make no mistake, to have the success he has had at various levels of the game, he must have something about him. And based on that success, perhaps that's why he didn't think he needed to change. "I've done it my way so far, screw what anyone else says." But on the weekend when Siralex hits his 25th anniversary at Old Toilet, there can be no greater illustration in the game that even the very best aren't too big or to successful to adapt.
Fergiescum was the typical meat and potatoes 4-4-2 merchant for many years, jobs for his mates on the coaching staff and all the rest of it. Up to and including his first few trophies with the Red Mancs.
But to his credit (as much as it pains me to say that) it was never enough for him, just to do things as they had always been done. He took on promising young coach who he wasn't particularly friendly with in McLaren, a guy who despite his (thoroughly deserved) comedy reputation in later years was actually ahead of the game at that stage, utilising prozone and the likes. After that he took on Queiroz -and exposed his players to a more European approach to training and tactics. As well as tapping into a burgeoning foreign market for young players.
If MON had been just a wee bit receptive to some of that kind of fresh input -allied with his more traditional motivational qualities- we could have been talking about a potentially great Villa manager.
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It's a subject that will remain divisive for many years to come. Those who still think the sun shines out of Magic Martin's arse aren't going to be swayed at this juncture. Likewise, those who were critical of the bloke. Or outright disliked him.
Eigentor sums up most of my feelings on the subject, but the biggest emotion I still feel about the whole thing is regret. Regret that he didn't at least stick around for another 12 months (whichever way you want to cut it, the manner of his departure was very unsatisfactory). But mostly regret that the old coot couldn't change.
Make no mistake, to have the success he has had at various levels of the game, he must have something about him. And based on that success, perhaps that's why he didn't think he needed to change. "I've done it my way so far, screw what anyone else says." But on the weekend when Siralex hits his 25th anniversary at Old Toilet, there can be no greater illustration in the game that even the very best aren't too big or to successful to adapt.
Fergiescum was the typical meat and potatoes 4-4-2 merchant for many years, jobs for his mates on the coaching staff and all the rest of it. Up to and including his first few trophies with the Red Mancs.
But to his credit (as much as it pains me to say that) it was never enough for him, just to do things as they had always been done. He took on promising young coach who he wasn't particularly friendly with in McLaren, a guy who despite his (thoroughly deserved) comedy reputation in later years was actually ahead of the game at that stage, utilising prozone and the likes. After that he took on Queiroz -and exposed his players to a more European approach to training and tactics. As well as tapping into a burgeoning foreign market for young players.
If MON had been just a wee bit receptive to some of that kind of fresh input -allied with his more traditional motivational qualities- we could have been talking about a potentially great Villa manager.
I agree with that.
As a Monette, the reason I was so happy with him, and so sad that it didn't work out, was that for a club of our current stature, he was about as good as we were going to get.
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It's a subject that will remain divisive for many years to come. Those who still think the sun shines out of Magic Martin's arse aren't going to be swayed at this juncture. Likewise, those who were critical of the bloke. Or outright disliked him.
Eigentor sums up most of my feelings on the subject, but the biggest emotion I still feel about the whole thing is regret. Regret that he didn't at least stick around for another 12 months (whichever way you want to cut it, the manner of his departure was very unsatisfactory). But mostly regret that the old coot couldn't change.
Make no mistake, to have the success he has had at various levels of the game, he must have something about him. And based on that success, perhaps that's why he didn't think he needed to change. "I've done it my way so far, screw what anyone else says." But on the weekend when Siralex hits his 25th anniversary at Old Toilet, there can be no greater illustration in the game that even the very best aren't too big or to successful to adapt.
Fergiescum was the typical meat and potatoes 4-4-2 merchant for many years, jobs for his mates on the coaching staff and all the rest of it. Up to and including his first few trophies with the Red Mancs.
But to his credit (as much as it pains me to say that) it was never enough for him, just to do things as they had always been done. He took on promising young coach who he wasn't particularly friendly with in McLaren, a guy who despite his (thoroughly deserved) comedy reputation in later years was actually ahead of the game at that stage, utilising prozone and the likes. After that he took on Queiroz -and exposed his players to a more European approach to training and tactics. As well as tapping into a burgeoning foreign market for young players.
If MON had been just a wee bit receptive to some of that kind of fresh input -allied with his more traditional motivational qualities- we could have been talking about a potentially great Villa manager.
I agree with most of this. As I argued, MON had clear limitations, but that didn't need to be a problem if he had surrounded himself with people who complemented him: a more progressive assistant, perhaps someone like Queiroz; a modern-thinking fitness coach; a proper scouting network.
As much as I dislike the man, there is little doubt that we lost something valuable (his leadership abilities, his charisma) when he left.
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Another good post Kev.
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I'd like to thank mon for the many wins we got in march every year, the glorious flowing football we played and for the many trophies. Oh and that fantastic night out in moscow
THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I saw MON on the pitch in midweek being interviewd for a Euro game .
I havent seen him for about 15 mths on TV .
I looked at him for 45 seconds while the presenter spoke , not feeling too much inside my body .
Then MON spoke and I just though ' C**t , shut the f**k up ' thats how I felt .....
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I love his new foray into the rent-a-pundit market with all the other long term unemployables. I think reality is beginning to dawn on him that there's not a queue of big clubs waiting to offer him the job he thinks he deserves under the conditions he wants. Even the likes of blackburn aren't gonna offer him the free reign he had at Villa
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MON may have thought that our inevitable downward curve after his departure would have helped his stock rise. In fact, it's done the opposite as everyone knows his role in that downturn is as great, if not greater, than anyone else's.
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Kevin and Eigentor make very impressive evaluations of the man and his time with us. I cannot disagree with any of the substance of the debate.
However, what happened at the end in a very irrational way I took personally. I have no justification to regard it so, I can only say how I felt. I had always considered Martin O'Neill to be a gentleman. The timing, manner of departure and subsequent actions against the club convinced me that the genuine admiration I had had for him was misplaced. That will always be taste left in my mouth by the O'Neill years.
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MON may have thought that our inevitable downward curve after his departure would have helped his stock rise. In fact, it's done the opposite as everyone knows his role in that downturn is as great, if not greater, than anyone else's.
I think you are spot on there Monty. I think his motivation for leaving was not spite, but to protect his image knowing that the money had run dry. Ironic that if he'd stayed for that season then he would arguably be held in better regard throughout football (despite the best efforts of his lawyer).
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In fairness to MON, although he is litigious fucker, he has the right to defend himself against false statements in the press. However, his actions against us after he walked out leaves a very sour taste, even if 'by law' he has been successful in his claim, it doesn't make it right. Perverts who get a kicking in prison sue the prison service for injuries sustained and win, but it doesn't make it morally right.
Nothing is allowed to put a stain on the MON brand (myth). I backed MON in almost all the things he did, Moscow included, because I thought his intentions were to achieve the best for the club. Reality is that he was only ever here out of self interest and was quick to drop us in the shit when he was questioned. Fact is he was limited and high maintenance. Good man management will only go so far.
His record at Villa is not a patch on Saunders, Taylor, Atkinson or Little.
He will also never manage a club the size of Aston Villa again.
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It would be interesting to know on what grounds MON won his case of constructive dismissal. It was probably the untenable situation regarding the withdrawal of transfer funds.
Apologies for picking hairs but I don't think MON did win a case for constructive dismissal. A settlement was definitely paid out but there was no verdict in the case. Apparently if you speak to Villa and specifically Faulkner they are also happy with the conclusion of the case, it's just that the media have been less inclined to print that side of the story.
Yes, but you don't pay a compensation/settlement package if your legal advice states that you are completely free of fault. An out of court agreement is mainly to 1. Save the payment of legal costs, which the proposed plaintiff would have to cover if the outcome was found to favour the defendant 2. Airing your dirty laundry in public.
Villa obviously didn't want to risk any of that.
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I thought the pay out was more to do with MON's notorious rolling one year contracts i.e. what he was contractually entitled to (not much). This could have been particularly awkward if the renewal date was the start of each season. However I stress that this is based on rumours and gossip that I have read hear rather than any sort of inside scoop.
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If the number I heard is correct, his contract date must have been around the beginning of July, thus giving him almost two years salary.
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A rolling one year contract normally means that as each day passes the contract becomes due to expire in exactly 365 days - that was the contract he was on at Celtic and, I think, is what Wenger's on at Arsenal.