Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: olaftab on October 03, 2011, 07:53:13 PM
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The European Court will give a ruling in this case tomorrow.
How do bars like the Rococo Lounge get away with showing 3.00PM games on Saturdays?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/davidbond/2011/10/pubs_v_premier_league.html
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The Landlady in Portsmouth used a Sky box with a Greek card in it and therefore Sky said it was illegal...I'm also a landlord and Have German Sky my mate has Italian and another few have Spanish or french.
With these you get all the Premier league matches shown on sky and ESPN including a 3 o'clock one with Footbaall first commentary. It is legal or else it's restraint of European trade. I had to pay 950 a month to sky but pay 175 for German sky hate doing it but needs must.
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Reducing the power of Sky can only have a long term positive effect on football in this country.
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She's won (at least this round).
BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15162241)
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A very interesting ruling that completely screws up the business model for Sky & ESPN & FAPL.
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A very interesting ruling that completely screws up the business model for Sky & ESPN & FAPL.
Not quite the Premier League as they are selling "the product" to the foreign TV companies that are being subscribed to in this/these case/s.
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A very interesting ruling that completely screws up the business model for Sky & ESPN & FAPL.
Think I read somewhere that the the PL might even make their own TV channel.
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What does this mean tv in general? BBC iPlayer doesn't allow me to watch certain programmes due to territorial rights, surely that means that I should be able to watch them now? Same goes for things like The Daily Show or Colbert Report.
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Reducing the power of Sky can only have a long term positive effect on football in this country.
True, although I'm not sure that allowing 3.00 games to be shown on TV the way forward, I'm sure that the amount of pubs showing Villa games live is having a big impact on the gates.
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Reducing the power of Sky can only have a long term positive effect on football in this country.
True, although I'm not sure that allowing 3.00 games to be shown on TV the way forward, I'm sure that the amount of pubs showing Villa games live is having a big impact on the gates.
Perhaps they should reduce the price?
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Reducing the power of Sky can only have a long term positive effect on football in this country.
True, although I'm not sure that allowing 3.00 games to be shown on TV the way forward, I'm sure that the amount of pubs showing Villa games live is having a big impact on the gates.
Perhaps they should reduce the price?
I agree, although unless all clubs do it we're just going to fall further behind.
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Ruling probably explains why Rileys have been sending texts to say they're now showing ALL saturday 3pm kick offs.
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Would I be amiss in thinking this could have as significant an affect on top professional football as downloads have had on music?
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Would I be amiss in thinking this could have as significant an affect on top professional football as downloads have had on music?
Maybe Doug is finally going to proved right as the financial support structure crumbles
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Reducing the power of Sky can only have a long term positive effect on football in this country.
True, although I'm not sure that allowing 3.00 games to be shown on TV the way forward, I'm sure that the amount of pubs showing Villa games live is having a big impact on the gates.
Perhaps they should reduce the price?
I agree, although unless all clubs do it we're just going to fall further behind.
This could be copuntered by the ruling fucking up the Champions League TV deal, hopefully.
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What does this mean tv in general? BBC iPlayer doesn't allow me to watch certain programmes due to territorial rights, surely that means that I should be able to watch them now? Same goes for things like The Daily Show or Colbert Report.
I think that's an artistic rights issue. It's the same for me here (obviously!). The judge in this case said that a football match didn't count as intellectual property.
I'd love to see everything available worldwide (for a fee, of course). It's moving that way! Hooray!
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This is something for Scudmissile and Sky to think about.
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Well it’s certainly a great victory for plastic Mancs across the land who can now watch the team they love from their local pub week on week without ever ever having to go to the trouble of actually visiting the stadium.
The topic of football cost has been frequently discussed on here and undoubtedly it is too high. A loss of a revenue stream for Sky may well lead to some redressing of the balance, but I do fear that for many ‘fans,’ watching football in the local pub will be the only way they will ever consume their football from now on.
Personally speaking, I’ve always hated watching Villa on the telly, be it in a pub or at home. Now of course I have no choice but to watch most of the games through the telly and I find it a very empty and unfulfilling experience. I will never be able to understand why a genuine fan would pay a Sky subscription and then watch another team play. Perhaps I’m in a minority in not giving a toss about any other team and certainly paying to see them on the telly.
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This has come about partly because Sky has been fleecing pubs, putting up fees hugely and pubs starting to feel the pinch generally. Sky only has itself to blame. I don't blame fans who can only afford to watch their games in pubs either. Football is way too expensive and oblivious to the recession so despite the TV revenues, it continues to overcharge. So even when prices are dropped for certain games, like ours recently, the habit of going to games is replaced by one of going to the pub. Casual fans become even more diluted as generic football-watchers. Why see Villa-Wigan for £15-26, when you can see Man Utd in the Red Lion for free?
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What does this mean tv in general? BBC iPlayer doesn't allow me to watch certain programmes due to territorial rights, surely that means that I should be able to watch them now? Same goes for things like The Daily Show or Colbert Report.
I think that's an artistic rights issue. It's the same for me here (obviously!). The judge in this case said that a football match didn't count as intellectual property.
I'd love to see everything available worldwide (for a fee, of course). It's moving that way! Hooray!
Correct - basically the judge said Sky can't 'copyright' a football match and claim the same protection as the creators of, for example, The Daily Show. He did however say that they could copyright the video intros, music etc. So if the Sky intro was part of the foreign programme, then they wouldn't be allowed to show THAT in the UK.
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What does this mean tv in general? BBC iPlayer doesn't allow me to watch certain programmes due to territorial rights, surely that means that I should be able to watch them now? Same goes for things like The Daily Show or Colbert Report.
I think that's an artistic rights issue. It's the same for me here (obviously!). The judge in this case said that a football match didn't count as intellectual property.
I'd love to see everything available worldwide (for a fee, of course). It's moving that way! Hooray!
Correct - basically the judge said Sky can't 'copyright' a football match and claim the same protection as the creators of, for example, The Daily Show. He did however say that they could copyright the video intros, music etc. So if the Sky intro was part of the foreign programme, then they wouldn't be allowed to show THAT in the UK.
An added bonus. I just gets better.
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Fuck sky and the premier league greedy bastards
thats all i wanted to say - thank you
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My understanding is it's now fine for 'individuals' to buy cards from foreign TV stations but not pubs. The landlady effectively lost her right to broadcast in her pub using the Greek card.
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So, the basics are that Sky sell these rights overseas, but the EU freedom of trade laws mean that they can't prevent them being sold back into the UK?
I simply can't see them not finding a way around that!!
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Reducing the power of Sky can only have a long term positive effect on football in this country.
True, although I'm not sure that allowing 3.00 games to be shown on TV the way forward, I'm sure that the amount of pubs showing Villa games live is having a big impact on the gates.
Perhaps they should reduce the price?
I agree, although unless all clubs do it we're just going to fall further behind.
Making it more affordable will get people in the habit of attending games and will more likely spend more cash or merchandise, beer, pies etc. I was always reluctant to buy anything at a match knowing it alreadt cost me about £40-45 already.
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So, the basics are that Sky sell these rights overseas, but the EU freedom of trade laws mean that they can't prevent them being sold back into the UK?
I simply can't see them not finding a way around that!!
If it threatens to destroy their business model completely I'm sure they will find a way.
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My understanding is it's now fine for 'individuals' to buy cards from foreign TV stations but not pubs. The landlady effectively lost her right to broadcast in her pub using the Greek card.
She is waiting for the High Court to endorse the ruling before reinstating her decoder.
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If the product is available at a cheaper price people will pay the cheaper price, be it a casual or cash strapped fan to watch in the pub or the landlord to save money and also attract more customers. It's basic market economics. In selling the PL all over the world the league has inadvertantly painted itself into a corner. Despite claims to the contrary, with the exception of a few clubs, the PL is uncompetative and unattractive to many fans and this is being reflected in attendances. The product is now being beamed back to the pubs to be watched by the very people who were sold as part of the attraction in the first place.
At the heart of this is greed, a greed that blinkered Sky into over charging pubs for their service, something they wouldn't do to the individual customer and may force them to re-assess their commercial business model.
The clubs also need to do the same.
And Moxey and all the others who made their fortune on the gravy train deserve everything they get.
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My understanding is it's now fine for 'individuals' to buy cards from foreign TV stations but not pubs. The landlady effectively lost her right to broadcast in her pub using the Greek card.
She is waiting for the High Court to endorse the ruling before reinstating her decoder.
She can reinstate her Greek decoder but not broadcast as she'd be breaching the PL copyright.
There was one other loser on Tuesday: Karen Murphy, the Portsmouth publican who started the case. Tired of the high prices Sky charges pubs and clubs, she went off and bought the original Greek satellite decoder card that caused all the trouble in the first place.
Unfortunately, the court held that pubs – who are in effect trying to profit from getting cheaper foreign decoder cards – can't benefit. That's because she was breaching the copyright of the Premier League, not by showing live coverage of the football match itself, but by broadcasting the Premier League's logo or anthem without permission.
The sanguine Premier League is already noting that it will be easy to stop publicans using its footage without permission by ensuring that its logo is on screen all the time, or its theme music played every time a replay is aired.
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A very interesting ruling that completely screws up the business model for Sky & ESPN & FAPL.
Not quite the Premier League as they are selling "the product" to the foreign TV companies that are being subscribed to in this/these case/s.
Yes, but Sky & ESPN will not pay anything like as much for non-exclusive rights so in fact the FAPL will also suffer severely.
And to those saying, basically, tough shit greedy buggers, Villa would suffer too with dramatically reduced reveues meaning much worse players etc.
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My understanding is it's now fine for 'individuals' to buy cards from foreign TV stations but not pubs. The landlady effectively lost her right to broadcast in her pub using the Greek card.
She can reinstate her Greek decoder but not broadcast as she'd be breaching the PL copyright.
There was one other loser on Tuesday: Karen Murphy, the Portsmouth publican who started the case. Tired of the high prices Sky charges pubs and clubs, she went off and bought the original Greek satellite decoder card that caused all the trouble in the first place.
Unfortunately, the court held that pubs – who are in effect trying to profit from getting cheaper foreign decoder cards – can't benefit. That's because she was breaching the copyright of the Premier League, not by showing live coverage of the football match itself, but by broadcasting the Premier League's logo or anthem without permission.
The sanguine Premier League is already noting that it will be easy to stop publicans using its footage without permission by ensuring that its logo is on screen all the time, or its theme music played every time a replay is aired.
That's not quite how I read it (though admittedly I've only skimmed the full judgment) - what I think it is saying is that if you buy an individual subscription you are not breaching copyright by then "broadcasting" (showing in a pub) the match itself, but you are violating copyright law if you broadcast the FAPL's intellectual property (anthem, logo etc).
The issue is therefore not that it's a foreign subscription, but that it's a domestic, not a commercial subscription. Presumably the broadcaster in Greece (or insert EU country here) also offers commercial subscriptions, that a UK pub could take up.
Interesting aside - can Sky (unlikely to want to) or ESPN (perhaps more likely) now sue the FAPL, as it turns out the FAPL cannot guarantee exclusivity? That presumably makes the current contracts less valuable than previously thought.
She is waiting for the High Court to endorse the ruling before reinstating her decoder.
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My understanding is it's now fine for 'individuals' to buy cards from foreign TV stations but not pubs. The landlady effectively lost her right to broadcast in her pub using the Greek card.
She can reinstate her Greek decoder but not broadcast as she'd be breaching the PL copyright.
There was one other loser on Tuesday: Karen Murphy, the Portsmouth publican who started the case. Tired of the high prices Sky charges pubs and clubs, she went off and bought the original Greek satellite decoder card that caused all the trouble in the first place.
Unfortunately, the court held that pubs – who are in effect trying to profit from getting cheaper foreign decoder cards – can't benefit. That's because she was breaching the copyright of the Premier League, not by showing live coverage of the football match itself, but by broadcasting the Premier League's logo or anthem without permission.
The sanguine Premier League is already noting that it will be easy to stop publicans using its footage without permission by ensuring that its logo is on screen all the time, or its theme music played every time a replay is aired.
That's not quite how I read it (though admittedly I've only skimmed the full judgment) - what I think it is saying is that if you buy an individual subscription you are not breaching copyright by then "broadcasting" (showing in a pub) the match itself, but you are violating copyright law if you broadcast the FAPL's intellectual property (anthem, logo etc).
The issue is therefore not that it's a foreign subscription, but that it's a domestic, not a commercial subscription. Presumably the broadcaster in Greece (or insert EU country here) also offers commercial subscriptions, that a UK pub could take up.
Interesting aside - can Sky (unlikely to want to) or ESPN (perhaps more likely) now sue the FAPL, as it turns out the FAPL cannot guarantee exclusivity? That presumably makes the current contracts less valuable than previously thought.
She is waiting for the High Court to endorse the ruling before reinstating her decoder.
She'd be sued for breach of copyright by the Premier League. Expect to see a constant PL logo on the screen in the coming weeks and the PL music when goals are replayed. They'll make it impossible for any pub to show games without breaching copyright.
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That's my point - I don't see how that interpretation flies under EU Law.
It's a legitimate restriction on copyright material to say "you can use this for domestic use, but not for commercial use".
It's not legitimate to say "the Greeks can have it but not the English" - that's against EU Law.
That applies to the logos, anthems etc.
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It's near impossible to control 'domestic' breaches of copyright but very easy to control 'commercial' use. That's how Sky and the PL will make sure that pubs are kept in their pockets, plus I don't imagine there's a very long queue of UK individuals wanting to subscribe to Greek channels.
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Interesting aside - can Sky (unlikely to want to) or ESPN (perhaps more likely) now sue the FAPL, as it turns out the FAPL cannot guarantee exclusivity? That presumably makes the current contracts less valuable than previously thought.
I don't believe so as the PL sells the rights to Sky and ESPN, who are then selling on the Greek rights to this Greek company. If anything amybe the PL could sue Sky if there sub-selling overseas right without adequate protection results in diminished gates?
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Having spoken to the rep who did our German Sky I am now starting to understand. The landlady used the Decoder card and thats bad. We use sky German box with no card. The PL sell Foreign TV companies the right to show the games and they bid for the games they want to show at 3 o'clock. On the screen from the sky German box there is the PL logo and Football First Commentary which is sold overseas too (you can either have German or English commentary although when David Pleat is on Werner Schultz is more agreeable.)
The main thing is that Sky tried to fleece me for Bums on seats and said my pub can seat 350 people but I realised that this included benches outside. 950 Quid or 175 to me thats a lot of cash and a Manure Chelski game gives me the monthly revenue in an afternoon!!!!!
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Will this now drive clubs to sell their TV rights individually abroad? If so the n football will implode as the big clubs will command far higher fees than the likes of the Boltons of this world.
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Is this not the reason why the media friendly clubs went down the road of club tv a while ago?
I might be wrong but i am sure i read in the 90's that Juventus being the Man U of Italy (i,e all the glory hunters followed them) sold a TV season ticket so the purchaser could watch every game via tv. The crowds then went from 50k per game to something like 20k per game and the atmosphere was dead
as i said i may be wrong but if it is the case then we are in for darker days of "fuck you we are alright" from the sky 4/5
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Will this now drive clubs to sell their TV rights individually abroad? If so the n football will implode as the big clubs will command far higher fees than the likes of the Boltons of this world.
Love the way you used Bolton as an example of a team nobody wants to watch...especially when there's a more obvious team...
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Listening to Barry Hearne on Talkshite this afternoon - he was is raptures over the fact that Sky had exclusive rights and had paid handsomely for those rights. Basically little old landlord in Pompey would soon be put in her place by exclusive lawyers representing their exclusive clients. If she was allowed to "win" it would affect the "product" that is the Premier League etc etc. As ever its all about the money.
Football is due one hell of a reality check - however like society in general, the rich get richer and look after their own.
How long can clubs go on playing ridiculous fees and wages?
Perhaps Sky and the PL should consider backing grassroots rather than subsidising the mega rich clubs.
Not an effing chance. :-\
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Will this now drive clubs to sell their TV rights individually abroad? If so the n football will implode as the big clubs will command far higher fees than the likes of the Boltons of this world.
Love the way you used Bolton as an example of a team nobody wants to watch...especially when there's a more obvious team...
Can't see the necessary 14 clubs out of the 20 voting for that.
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Is the revolution just about to dawn.....football gets its long overdue reality check..bring it on
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Listening to Barry Hearne on Talkshite this afternoon - he was is raptures over the fact that Sky had exclusive rights and had paid handsomely for those rights. Basically little old landlord in Pompey would soon be put in her place by exclusive lawyers representing their exclusive clients. If she was allowed to "win" it would affect the "product" that is the Premier League etc etc. As ever its all about the money.
Football is due one hell of a reality check - however like society in general, the rich get richer and look after their own.
How long can clubs go on playing ridiculous fees and wages?
Perhaps Sky and the PL should consider backing grassroots rather than subsidising the mega rich clubs.
Not an effing chance. :-\
This
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It was the concept of open European free markets with the Bosman ruling that changed football forever and allowed those at the top end of the game to start making untold millions ultimately at the expense of ordinary fans. Not just the expense from our pockets but robbing us of the game we had grown up with and loved.
Perhaps in time it will be that same concept of an open European free market that will bite back at that group which has been riding the gravy train for so long. A gravy train occupied by mega rich agents, TV executives, club managers getting millions in "compensation", players on £100k+ per week, very ordinary players who hardly ever even play on £50k per week.
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Well done the pubs. They'll have more fans in them than grounds soon. Just saw our ticket prices for the Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal games, the dearest tickets are £47! What a piss take. I remember when we used to moan about Chelsea being over £40 and i remember our dearest prices were about £35 not long ago. Thats a hell of an increase especially considering we've achieved feck all on the pitch. No wonder the ground is half empty and the atmosphere is crap.
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To give an idea of the price hikes, it cost seven quid to stand on the Holte against Man Ure in the first season of the Premier League.
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This case shows just how low the game in this country - and SKY have sunk.
Gary Neville's whining constitutes 'intellectual property'?
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To give an idea of the price hikes, it cost seven quid to stand on the Holte against Man Ure in the first season of the Premier League.
Might cost you £400 and a 2 year ban now.
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It would appear that ridiculous prices are not just confined to the Prem. I received an email this morning from Ajax offering me tickets to the next two Chumps League matches (one of whom is Real). In order to profit from this great offer I'd have to part with €137,50 .... If this is the going rate for Chumps League tickets I'm glad we're not part of it.
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You know i just wondered maybe the Sky 4 are courted due to the fact that they have huge followings still at the stadiums (Arse Man U Chelski 'The Mighty Reds YNWA') always play to full houses - especially on Chumps league nights
Imagine if we or any of the other decently but not spectacular supported teams actually broke into it - would the huge corperate sponsors want the games played to half empty stadia on Tv around the world?
Hard to sell the competetion as the biggest games in the world when the stadium is emtpy
Maybe there is a reason why Sperms are always fawned over because as their stadium only holds around 36K it always looks full on tv.
And to really make it sound like a conspiracy - every time a team puts a decent squad together sky come along to destabalise it and make the key players of those teams get restless to play in Champs league so the "lesser" teams never have a chance to build it
Then on the off chance a lesser team does make it they get a real shitty draw to ensure they do not get through - lets face it the early rounds are just cash making games for the favoured teams
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Chelsea don't always fill their ground for CL matches, only in the latter stages do they sell out.
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I have now read several assessments by lawyers of the ruling and its implications and the next legal steps in this case. One thing is categorically clear: all of the lawyers are circling like vultures and they will make a fortune from arguing the toss until kingdom come. As for who can show what on a telly - no idea!
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The Landlady in Portsmouth used a Sky box with a Greek card in it and therefore Sky said it was illegal...I'm also a landlord and Have German Sky my mate has Italian and another few have Spanish or french.
With these you get all the Premier league matches shown on sky and ESPN including a 3 o'clock one with Footbaall first commentary. It is legal or else it's restraint of European trade. I had to pay 950 a month to sky but pay 175 for German sky hate doing it but needs must.
Good luck to you.
By the way can anyone buy Greek or any other card to use in their skybox?
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Chelsea don't always fill their ground for CL matches, only in the latter stages do they sell out.
They stay away because of the high ticket prices now thats why. Their tickets used to be set before the start of the season with a cap for all competitions, for the Chumps League it was something like £20 for group stage games and then more expensive for the knockout rounds. Now their tickets are £40 for group games and a lot of their fans are staying away in protest. Their fans are hoping for as low as 25,000 against Genk and the club have resorted to giving away free tickets. Football fans in this country are mugs, as long as they keep paying £43 to watch garbage like Villa v Wolves (and now £47 for Villa v Man Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool. Disgusting) then clubs like ours will continue to charge it. If 20,000 stayed away for a few games they would have no choice but to lower prices but football fans don't stand up for themselves and thus get treated like shit.
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I think we have quite a few stay away fans at the moment who are picking and choosing their games due to the economiuc circumstances. Myself included!
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Chelsea don't always fill their ground for CL matches, only in the latter stages do they sell out.
They stay away because of the high ticket prices now thats why. Their tickets used to be set before the start of the season with a cap for all competitions, for the Chumps League it was something like £20 for group stage games and then more expensive for the knockout rounds. Now their tickets are £40 for group games and a lot of their fans are staying away in protest. Their fans are hoping for as low as 25,000 against Genk and the club have resorted to giving away free tickets. Football fans in this country are mugs, as long as they keep paying £43 to watch garbage like Villa v Wolves (and now £47 for Villa v Man Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool. Disgusting) then clubs like ours will continue to charge it. If 20,000 stayed away for a few games they would have no choice but to lower prices but football fans don't stand up for themselves and thus get treated like shit.
Always great to see Villa park full but if the attendences drop the prices will drop and hopefully they will then realise that is the way forward as the sales of food and drink will benefit with bigger crowds ........
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Has any one worked out what Internet Streams will do to TV deals in the future? The pub thing is not the real issue. If people can buy a package that includes any game that is broadcast on TV for a season for less than a ticket for one PL game then its pretty obvious that the new technology is a game changer. If you look at what has happened to the Music industry where the revenue has moved from selling product to live performances.
The value of Broadcasting rights will significantly diminish over the next 5 years.
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NFL game pass £169 to watch any game on your computer.
I expect Sky/PL to something similar up and running within 2 years.
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Chelsea don't always fill their ground for CL matches, only in the latter stages do they sell out.
They stay away because of the high ticket prices now thats why. Their tickets used to be set before the start of the season with a cap for all competitions, for the Chumps League it was something like £20 for group stage games and then more expensive for the knockout rounds. Now their tickets are £40 for group games and a lot of their fans are staying away in protest. Their fans are hoping for as low as 25,000 against Genk and the club have resorted to giving away free tickets. Football fans in this country are mugs, as long as they keep paying £43 to watch garbage like Villa v Wolves (and now £47 for Villa v Man Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool. Disgusting) then clubs like ours will continue to charge it. If 20,000 stayed away for a few games they would have no choice but to lower prices but football fans don't stand up for themselves and thus get treated like shit.
I agree, FAPL, SKY, and Clubs will always treat fans shit, they now that fans will always pay to watch (either in a pub or at the ground) there team, they know the a true fan has his/her heart in there club, and for this reason we will always be treated as morons.
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NFL game pass £169 to watch any game on your computer.
I expect Sky/PL to something similar up and running within 2 years.
And I expect there will be loads of alternatives that are a lot cheaper
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NFL game pass £169 to watch any game on your computer.
I expect Sky/PL to something similar up and running within 2 years.
And I expect there will be loads of alternatives that are a lot cheaper
Sky's strategy revolves around 3D - they are looking to have all games broadcast in it asap - remember the season ticket seat losses to accomodate the cameras at VP - as that will give the internet streamers a problem. Best solution - boycott sky.
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Best solution - boycott sky.
It's the only thing that will work.
However, the match going fan is such a small percentage of their overall customer base that you'd need to get the armchair fan to do so aswell, which I can't see happening.