Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: richardhubbard on October 03, 2011, 12:51:30 PM
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We are about 1/5th of the way through the season and unbeaten in the league and 7th , so what positive conclusions can we draw so far under mctaggart reign.
1) Return of Gabby, who with the departure of Milner, Downing and Young is starting to look a star.
2) Defence is as solid as its been in last 4 years and Hutton looks an Ok buy.
3) Given looks the top class keeper , and a steal at 3.5m
4) Bannan looks a class act and could become a top class player
5) Ireland seems interested and we seen moments of his talent
6) Bent if fit will get goals
7) Delph on saturday looked decent enough and with time will improve
Areas of improvement required- NZgobia needs to get involved, looks like a move to a bigger club he is struggling. Albrighton and Delf now need to step up
Its not the disaster it could be yet, and I Mctaggart will probably drag us towards eighth like he did with them lot , it won't be pretty but could be ok
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Warnock had his best game for us on Saturday for about 2 years.
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Since Alex Ferguson is practically Taggart in disguise and Mcleish is a ginge, not sure the nickname works.
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How about McGinge
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McMinge
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Gabby and Bent can be a formidable partnership this season and like everyone else in football seems to think - the signing of Given was a masterstroke.
at this point i'd be tempted to say a top six - eight finish is in order as the fixture list has been kind enough for not-sir-alex to actually assemble his best team without losing a league match.
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How about McLeish?
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A bit early of this type of thread, but so far it's gone well.
Highlights - Given & Gabby
As we expected - strong defence
Could do better - attacking intent
Disappointment - N'Zogbia
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Positives for me are the signing of Given.The resurgent Dunne and the fact Gabby is looking like a real player now.I wasn't happy with the appointment of the manager but the way he has conducted himself is also a positive.
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Petrov has had a new lease of life. Thought he was excellent again on Saturday.
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Joint best defence in the league I think. So he deserves credit for that.
From the start, I had this season down as one of transition so it is good that Delph and Bannan have had a fair amount of pitch time. They may never be the stars we want but at least AMc is giving them a run so we will know with greater certainty next summer.
I would like to see Clark phased into the team too but appreciate a larger points cushion might be required.
Overall I'd give our league start a 7/10.
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In no particular order:
Unbeaten
McLeish
Gabby
Warnock
Given
Bannan
We still have Bent (not that he was going anywhere, but he's just a positive)
Dunne & Collins
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Overall I'd give our league start a 7/10.
I'm gonna be stingier and say 6.5
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Warnock had his best game for us on Saturday for about 2 years.
Good point.
I thought he played very well on Saturday.
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We are unbeaten and our level of performance has been improving, particularly Saturday. Gabby has been fantastic, Bannan looks a great prospect and Ireland is even started to show glimpses of his ability.
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Positives: Gabby, Bannan, unbeaten in the league, defence looks better, Given, Ireland looks like he may finally give a shit about Aston Villa (well it's it's only taken him just over a year), McLeish is conducting himself well, Petrov looks like he might last closer to 90 mins than an hour.
Negatives: N'Zogbia (so far) Delph still worries me, Bolton, crowds. Only winning 2 out of 7 in the league. Not enough attacking intent yet over all 9 games.
6/10.
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Agree with most of the points raised.
However, I'd say the start to the season made by Bannan is a damn sight better than that of Delph.
Too many rash challenges (pen at Everton, booked against Wolves in the first 5 mins) and almost cost us a goal on Saturday with poor pass.
Bannan is hitting goal creating passes and has forced the keeper into a few cracking saves already. I think he could be Sid Mark 2 in a couple of seasons.
I'm afraid I'm still struggling to find positives with Stephen Ireland as well.
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Warnock had his best game for us on Saturday for about 2 years.
Good point.
I thought he played very well on Saturday.
I thought so too.He robbed the Wigan player of the ball with a superb tackle which consequently led to Gabbys goal
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I agree about Warnock. Saturday was the first time I can remember where he didn't make some comically badly timed tackle or attempt at a header at any point. He also won the ball and laid it off to bannan in the build up to Gabby's goal.
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A team that was in very real danger of relegation in April then lost its two star players stands unbeaten in 7th place.
That is progress in anybodys book.
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Overall I'd give our league start a 7/10.
That's probably about right.
We'd need to be playing better opposition, or managed to turn one or two draws into wins, to score any higher.
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Overall I'd give our league start a 7/10.
I'm gonna be stingier and say 6.5
I'd give it a 5.5
There have been some signs of a decent team, especially in the last game and a half.
However our 2 wins have come against very poor teams, and we owe a couple of points to the brilliance of Given.
Some people might use the positive of unbeaten, others will use the negative of only 2 wins in seven. I suppose you can make a reasonable argument either way.
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1/5 of the way over? 7/38 or 0.18 actually.
Stop wishing your life away Richard.
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Now that we're 14/76'ths of the way into the season, it's fair to say that on the positive side of life, Given is a steal at 3.5, Bannan is looking like a footballer, Gabby is back ( official), Benty will score like he does, Ireland IS interested and has talent and we may just see it, Dunne and Collins, not perfect but almost solid, the bloke in front of me with the silent, smelly farts and attitude hasn't renewed this season.
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Everyone's working hard and has responded well to the manager. There's no sense of division in the camp, or unease between management and players as there was last season.
I personally think McLeish has done well so far. We're solid and tough to beat (Carling blip aside). We don't capitulate when we go behind, and though some naysayers may argue some of the draws we got were fortunate, we still pulled those points out of the bag, where last season we'd have rolled over. Like most managers it takes time to really get into full swing with a new team, so there's improvement to come, and I expect it to. We've struggled, even under O Neill, to win enough of those games where we're expected to beat the opposition who aren't as good as we are. You'd say our start has been predominently games we should expect to win given the opposition, except maybe Everton and Fulham on their patch. So a few disappointing draws is nothing new anyway.
We have to see how Eck fares against better oppositon, where O Neill often got a performance and some results for us. If we can get points here and there from the top 6 clubs, and improve our results at Villa Park against the lower half teams, then we'll push for the top 7.
With the players we have, I feel that we should be at least expecting the best of the rest tag. We're in better nick than Arsenal anyway. If they lose Van Persie, they're may even struggle to get top half. He's not adverse to injuries either.
Given and Gabby have been my major highlights though. Plus Irelands attitude. No more moaning or lougnging. He's trying and he's working hard. The form will come soon enough if he gets a run.
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Yes yes, all very interesting and self-congratulatory, but remember that we haven't faced anyone yet we wouldn't normally expect to beat or at least compete with. Look again after December is over.
Although I would like to say Bannan, Given and Gabby have been real boons, and I really like the way McLeish has come across personally. I would just like to see a little more attacking intent.
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Fans' rating: 6 out of 10.
Owner's rating: 10 out of 10.
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The we haven't played anyone argument is a weak one. At a club we've significantly downsized so are in no position to assume we should pick up points against anyone.
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It's been a solid start, with some definite positives, eg the form of Gabby and Bannan, and the fact that we're a lot more defensively sound than we were last season. We'be beaten two very poor teams, and been "patchy" against others, and hope we don't come too much of a cropper when the run gets a lot tougher in December.
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The we haven't played anyone argument is a weak one. At a club we've significantly downsized so are in no position to assume we should pick up points against anyone.
and the fact that we've just beaten a team that we have failed to beat at home since they,ve been in the PL
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Fans' rating: 6 out of 10.
Owner's rating: 10 out of 10.
6/10 about right, 10/10 confused.com
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Positives for me
Gabby - looks a 20 million poind player again - Ok so If downing is 20 , Gabby is 40 ;-)
Given - will be goalkeeper of the season , we are getting clean sheets ..
Defence as improved , which I thought it would .
Petrov - as started to get a good shot on him again and lasting 90 mins .
Ireland _ think he will come good , the fans appreciated the effort and it was good to see his reaction .
Bannon - obviously
disapointments -
Nzogbia , but Im sure he will come good . Hes been a good player for a few seasons .
Delph - loses the ball to much for me , but he has to play to see what he can do , just wished we had bought a fit leader of a midfielder to give him a rest at times.
signing Jenas - whats the point
7/10 but should disapointed we didn't beat Noocastle and Wolves which woud have given us a 9/10 ...
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The we haven't played anyone argument is a weak one. At a club we've significantly downsized so are in no position to assume we should pick up points against anyone.
Exactly.
Also, we have played seven different teams and have still not played the likes of Norwich, Swansea and Sunderland. This league is a sea of average and it only takes a little extra to be slightly better than average - and in Bent and Gabby we have what most of the other 'average' teams in the league do not.
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The we haven't played anyone argument is a weak one. At a club we've significantly downsized so are in no position to assume we should pick up points against anyone.
Exactly.
Also, we have played seven different teams and have still not played the likes of Norwich, Swansea and Sunderland. This league is a sea of average and it only takes a little extra to be slightly better than average - and in Bent and Gabby we have what most of the other 'average' teams in the league do not.
nor Albion ;-)
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I always thought we struggled against the shite teams anyway , we could never break them down even with Young and wanker Downing .
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The main negatives people seem to be focusing on are failing to beat newcastle and wolves at home. And while these were disappointing results, they are decent, solid sides and we won't be the only team who fail to beat either of them.
What I think would help us separate ourselves from a lot of the teams around us is turning some of our away draws into wins. Hopefully if Bent really finds his form this can happen.
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To those still peddling the “easy start” line, would you rather be like Bolton? Playing pretty much the whole top five in the first two months of the season and getting spanked every week? Sure it gets them out of the way, but your players have been chasing shadows for weeks, they’ve barely had a chance to establish any style of play, your new signings haven’t bedded in and confidence is on the floor. Suddenly your next few games (against supposedly weak opposition) have become massive. Try telling Bolton that their next match (against Wigan) is easy; it's certainly isn't now. The pressure’s on. Would you really prefer that?
I consider it a bonus that our start to the season has seen us avoid the big guns. After an unsettling summer it’s given us the opportunity to find our feet a little. It’s meant that we’ve been able to make mistakes and not get severely punished. At times we’ve been about as bad as I’ve seen us in years, and you could argue that we should have been soundly thrashed at least twice…yet we haven’t been. Even at our very worst, we’ve managed to stay unbeaten, which to me implies that things are possibly not as bleak as some people on here want to believe. Now we're going into the City game having at least started to find a bit of form.
Anyway, you know the saying that winning when playing badly is the sign of champions? By that logic, isn’t drawing when playing badly the sign of a comfortable mid-table finish?
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A negative I have is the loss of the organic 'Villa vitality' food in the lower Holte. The burger there at half time with a cup of proper coffee was well worth every penny of the £5.00 charged.
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It's October, it's still red hot and the Villa haven't lost.
What more d'yer want?
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Its a lot quicker to get served in the pubs around the ground.
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Quick Jar McGrath. Agree that I'd rather be in our position than Bolton's.
What worries me is the fact that the only team who hasn't spanked them in the last month or so is us !
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I'll give it a generally positive 7/10.
The stand out features are:
- The defence looks more solid with a great keeper as the last line.
- Gabby is back in goal-scoring form.
- Unbeaten in the league. They say that the league table doesn't lie after 10 games. I reckon we'll probably get a win, a draw and our first defeat in the next three games, 15 points after 10 games will probably see us between 8th and 10th, which is about right.
There are some disappointments and areas for improvement, but considering the doom and gloom that there's been for months now, at present I'd rather look on the bright side of life.
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Positives (http://www.heroesandvillains.info/forumv3/index.php?topic=44816.0)
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How about McLeish?
I think Alex McLeish is turning into a big positive.
He has bought the players together again and slowly but surely the players are begining to gel.
We have to show some patience guys.
On Saturday confidence was begining to show.
Well done AMcL
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1) Reaffirming we have one of the very best players in the Premiership with Gabriel Agbonlahor.
2) For me probably the best signing in the transfer window in Shay Given.
3) Barry Bannan is starting to look like he has the potential to be a real quality player.
4) Dion Dublin picked Petrov's goal on MOTD 2 as the best goal of the bunch, when was the last time a Villa goal was even considered in the running, and great to see that Dixon bloke squirming and muttering with complaints about Dublins decision, I swear that bloke knows nothing about football.
5) We look set up well for this time in the season for the big test v Man City, this game is a cup final, can't wait, lets get this England crap out the way and get down to the real business, cautiously confident with a couple of reservations. ( this time last season I would have written this game well and truly of)
A couple of negatives, N'Zogbia needs to give himself a boot up the jacksy, I'm still concerned about our RB/LB positions when they come under real scrutiny.
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Positives: a solid defence, Given, Dunne and Warnock in particular. Gabby playing to his max. Unbeaten in the Prem.
Negatives: the midfield. Up until the Wigan game it looked clueless. N'Zogbia.
I'm really not surprised we're unbeaten so far as the fixture list has been particularly kind. It's going to be interesting how we fare against Manchester City, our first real test of the season. A good result there would do wonders for the team's confidence, as well as us fans.
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As my old school reports used to say - "could do better"!
Gabby is superb (thank phuk)
Given is signing of the season pound for pound (being negative but that means he will be off next summer to one of the sky top 4)
Bannan coming along nicely (being negative but that means he will be off the summer after next to one of the sky top 4)
Bent`s doing OK (being negative............. you get the picture?)
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Fans' rating: 6 out of 10.
Owner's rating: 10 out of 10.
Randy?
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The we haven't played anyone argument is a weak one. At a club we've significantly downsized so are in no position to assume we should pick up points against anyone.
How discouraging when one of the most erudite champions of our team's merits at any given time on H&V, and I mean that with only respect Chris, believes treading water is now the most we can expect. :-\
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Our position looks to be a true reflection of how we have played.
I want to see how we face up to some of the contenders (Spuds/Arse/City/Manure/Chelsks/Pool) before getting excited
The team appears to be gelling with Warnock and Ireland improving.
Defence has come back from it's sabbatical last season.
Strike force looks great at times - Gabby is scoring some excellent goals and Bent is taking pressure off him
Mc Leish the man I actually like - as a manager he is being cautious but seems to have the feel for the team now and is taking some chances.
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People say we havent blame the big teams . Nooocastle are 3rd .. ;-)
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The we haven't played anyone argument is a weak one. At a club we've significantly downsized so are in no position to assume we should pick up points against anyone.
How discouraging when one of the most erudite champions of our team's merits at any given time on H&V, and I mean that with only respect Chris, believes treading water is now the most we can expect. :-\
Have to go with Chris on this one.
There are no easy games in the Prem these days, I reckon only Man U, Man C & Chelsea are in a position to expect to win all games.
Fulham gave QPR a 6-0 thrashing, some moaned about drawing at Fulham, yet QPR gave us a game. Wigan gave QPR a stuffing too, 4-0.
Swansea beat Stoke who had beaten Liverpool.
Some moan about drawing with Newcastle, they're unbeaten and 3rd.
With the exeption of the top 3 all teams are capable of beating each other.
There's no such thing as an easy game in the Prem, once people realise this they can probably start to enjoy it instead of looking on the downside.
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The we haven't played anyone argument is a weak one. At a club we've significantly downsized so are in no position to assume we should pick up points against anyone.
How discouraging when one of the most erudite champions of our team's merits at any given time on H&V, and I mean that with only respect Chris, believes treading water is now the most we can expect. :-\
Have to go with Chris on this one.
There are no easy games in the Prem these days, I reckon only Man U, Man C & Chelsea are in a position to expect to win all games.
Fulham gave QPR a 6-0 thrashing, some moaned about drawing at Fulham, yet QPR gave us a game. Wigan gave QPR a stuffing too, 4-0.
Swansea beat Stoke who had beaten Liverpool.
Some moan about drawing with Newcastle, they're unbeaten and 3rd.
With the exeption of the top 3 all teams are capable of beating each other.
There's no such thing as an easy game in the Prem, once people realise this they can probably start to enjoy it instead of looking on the downside.
I agree.
I'm sure Man City will feel they will get maximum points from our game but at the same time Chelsea and Man U will be thinking we are one of the clubs where Man City might slip up. As you say, there are no easy games and we will be bracketed as one of the more difficult ones. We are hard to beat.
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This season's results vs last season's:
Fulham 0 - 0 Villa, last season 1 - 1
Villa 3 - 1 Blackburn , last season 4 - 1
Villa 0 - 0 Wolves, last season 0 - 1 (the shame)
Everton 2 - 2 Villa, last season 2 - 2
Villa 1 - 1 Newcastle, last season 1 - 0
QPR 1 - 1 Villa, last season n/a
Villa 2 - 0 Wigan, last season 1 -1
So if we discount the QPR game (although away from home last season we lost 2 and drew 1 against the newly promoted teams) we're on 10 points vs 9.
Easy start? Probably, we've got one more point than last year against the same teams though so that can't be anything but positive, especially given the summer we had!
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There is no such thing as easy points, that is right, but it doesn't change the fact that points are much harder to get against the better teams than they are against the weaker ones.
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We are still unbeaten which is a positive Gabby and Bannan are playing brilliantly the defence looks solid again Given as got to be signing of the summer let's just keep the positive vibes going I think we will also get better.
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The big difference from last season is that everyone within the squad does seem to be pulling in the same direction and, although we are clearly lacking a bit of quality in some areas, this team is not going to just roll over and die. We may well end up getting turned over by a very inventive Man City side in the next game, but unlike last season's two trips we won't be beaten before we take the field.
The manager deserves credit for that.
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The we haven't played anyone argument is a weak one. At a club we've significantly downsized so are in no position to assume we should pick up points against anyone.
How discouraging when one of the most erudite champions of our team's merits at any given time on H&V, and I mean that with only respect Chris, believes treading water is now the most we can expect. :-\
That's not quite what I meant, Eamonn. More that that we're not currently among the big spenders so the assumption that points should be guaranteed is a bit presumptuous and that I think we deserve credit for an unbeaten start.
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There is no such thing as easy points, that is right, but it doesn't change the fact that points are much harder to get against the better teams than they are against the weaker ones.
Very true, but had we been facing the tougher teams early doors and were now in the bottom three, the fact we had easier games to come would not stop the McLeish/board bashing we'd now be seeing. So, and without getting carried away, I think the fact they have been 'easier' games thus far should not detract from the very positive start we've had.
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The win on Saturday was a massive result.Throughout this thread it has been stated that we're unbeaten.Had the Wigan game ended in a draw i'd have had money on the fact the talk would've been more to do with only one win all season rather than about us being unbeaten.When I looked at the fixture list before the season I thought we should've been unbeaten at this point.I also would've expected wins against Wolves and Newcastle, but I reckon had the Newcastle and Wolves fans been asked if they fancied getting anything at Villa Park they'd have been confident theirselves.So while it hasn't been spectacular, the fact it's been steady has to be viewed as a positive.The only real disappointments for me have been the early cup exit and the form of N'Zogbia, and it's still early days for him.
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Playing Devils Advocate here.
Say we'd played, Man U, Man C, Chelsea, Liverpool in our first 4 games and lost all 4, we'd have been adrift at the bottom of the league, supporters would be calling for AMcL's head and probably Randy's too, the atmosphere in the ground would be awful, confidence in the squad would be rock bottom and there would most likely be squabbling amongst the players.
Then along come the 7 "easy games" that we've just had.
Do you think we'd have gone on a 7 game unbeaten run?
I'd put my house on it that we wouldn't have. We'd have probably lost to Hereford too.
This so called "easy start" has enabled the squad and the manager to gel together and given the players some much needed confidence.
Let's not knock this start guys, I doubt if there are many of us who'd have predicted we'd be unbeaten after 7 games.
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Nigel,out of interest which game did you predict we'd lose? Only the Everton fixture was of concern for me but even that game i thought we'd get something from.
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Everton, Fulham and QPR, basically any away match can be lost by a team as good (or bad) as Villa.
I think AMc deserves some credit for getting us past these potential banana skins.
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It's been a solid start, with some definite positives, eg the form of Gabby and Bannan, and the fact that we're a lot more defensively sound than we were last season. We'be beaten two very poor teams, and been "patchy" against others, and hope we don't come too much of a cropper when the run gets a lot tougher in December.
Yep, my take on it.
I think this season there will be a lot of mundane and backs to the wall football punctured by individual moments of brilliance like we had from Gabby on saturday to win us some games.
Hopefully Ireland and especially N'zogbia will get in on the individual brilliant moments act later on in the season as both have the talent to be matchwinners for us.
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Fans' rating: 6 out of 10.
Owner's rating: 10 out of 10.
Randy?
Yep. The obvious target for the manager was for Villa not to get relegated. So, as we are not in the bottom three, target is being achieved.
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Positives: Gabby playing better than ever; Given's form; the defence looking settled again; unbeaten in the PL; three clean sheets in the league; McLeish BEGINNING to shuffle his team/formation around for specific games and opponents; players seem happy.
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Nigel,out of interest which game did you predict we'd lose? Only the Everton fixture was of concern for me but even that game i thought we'd get something from.
I didn't predict any defeat in our first 7 games that we've played so far.
What I was saying is:
HAD we play those "Big 4" as our first 4 games and lost them all (which would have been a posibility) would
we, given rock bottom confidence of the players and a restless crowd, have gone unbeaten had those 7 games happened after 4 defeats.
I'm saying that we shouldn't knock this unbeaten start as It's giving the players the confidence for when we do player these top clubs.
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I'll go with 7/10.
The big bonuses for me is the renaissance we have seen in some players (Gabby, Dunne, Warnock, Collins, Petrov and perhaps Ireland) and the signing of a magnificent 'keeper in Given. Aside from that, McLeish has been fairly impressive as a man. He's spoken well in press conferences. and aside from an initial obsession with Emile Heskey he has settled on a team that is not too different from what many of us would pick which with Bannan and Ireland has the potential to get much better aesthetically.
The negatives so far seem to be with a few of the signings with Hutton and N'Zogbia looking a bit disappointing though the hope is that they will improve. The central midfield looks a bit ropey but with so little to spend and his one central midfield signing being injured unable to play you can't really say how much McLeish is to blame for that. Style of play can be better but hopefully Bannan and Ireland can help improve that. If we still look horrid with such artisans in the team then something really is wrong.
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I look at it this way: there's only 3 teams that we don't have a realistic chance of picking up points from this season (IMO) and they are man u man city and Chelsea. If we can start turning 1 pt into 3 more often, then no reason why we can't aspire to a top 6 finish.
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If there's an accusation that he has played it safe somewhat so far, then you can forgive him that, if you look at the circumstances in which he came to the job.
He'd have been bonkers to do anything that would have made his life any more difficult than he needed to. Given that, the most obvious thing to do would be "not lose games", and treat anything more as a bonus.
There have been a few justifiable concerns about the way he's had us play for much of the season so far, but he's still got a valid get out of jail card on that front in my eyes.
Let's see how he can develop us moving forward. He's going to have a job on his hands, as he doesn't have many choices squad-wise, and for that, he gets my sympathy.
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If there's an accusation that he has played it safe somewhat so far, then you can forgive him that, if you look at the circumstances in which he came to the job.
He'd have been bonkers to do anything that would have made his life any more difficult than he needed to. Given that, the most obvious thing to do would be "not lose games", and treat anything more as a bonus.
There have been a few justifiable concerns about the way he's had us play for much of the season so far, but he's still got a valid get out of jail card on that front in my eyes.
Let's see how he can develop us moving forward. He's going to have a job on his hands, as he doesn't have many choices squad-wise, and for that, he gets my sympathy.
You read my mind.