Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Vanilla on September 09, 2011, 10:06:37 AM
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Re: the below statement by the Villa manager, negative thinking or just plain realism of Premier League football today, and what Villa's realistic ambitions should be?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14844717.stm
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Realistic really
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It's just the way it is, unfortunately.
It's all very well for UEFA to blather on about the financial inequalities in the game and to talk about this financial fair play nonsense, but if there is one thing other than mental sheiks and oligarchs which has created this inequality over the years, it is the UEFA Champions League.
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True statement and said I'm sure to try and lower expectations to a more realistic level. I do wonder how it makes the current squad feel to know their recently departed team mates are at super clubs while they're not.
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It's even worse in La Liga where there is only really 2 teams, and its all due to money.
Villa, in the majority I would say, is a second rate club.
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Realistic really
Sad though isn't it. For me, supporting Villa (or whichever team anyone supports) was always about potential, even if the hear and now is poop.This is like; 'We had a bad start to the season, but the second half shows good signs of improving', or 'we had a decent finish to the season, and with a couple of signings and we should get better next season', or 'we finished 6th this season, but will hopefully finish higher and get into Europe next season' etc etc.
Now it just feels, this is your lot, get used to it, or as the manager put it: we should in the top 10.
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It's just the way it is, unfortunately.
It's all very well for UEFA to blather on about the financial inequalities in the game and to talk about this financial fair play nonsense, but if there is one thing other than mental sheiks and oligarchs which has created this inequality over the years, it is the UEFA Champions League.
Unless football goes the NFL route of franchises, salary caps etc, this is the way that it's gonna be
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The excuses for Darren Bent's January departure have started earlier than expected.
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True statement and said I'm sure to try and lower expectations to a more realistic level. I do wonder how it makes the current squad feel to know their recently departed team mates are at super clubs while they're not.
Would you think that could encourage complacency in players if they can just think, well no use playing out my skin week-in, week-out as not much is expected from us?
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The excuses for Darren Bent's January departure have started earlier than expected.
That's utter bullshit. Get real and see the big picture, we like a lot of other clubs, cannot compete with the financial clout of criminal Russian oligarchs or oil states. We are where we are and no amount of sniping is going to change that. All we can do is carry on supporting our club and not keep comparing ourselves to the mega-rich as we aint going to catch up
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And in other news, the Pope is reported to be a Catholic.
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Sad reality of modern day top flight football I'm afraid, and the rich clubs will just find a way to buy round the financial fair play rules and perpetuate the status quo. So many of us are falling out of love with the game at this level and I think the only way it will change is if a European 'Super League' is set up in place of the Champions League so the rest of us can compete for the league on a more level playing field. Other than that we can just accept our place and put up with it, or - as my son now does and I'm getting more tempted to do - go to lower or non-league games and just go to the Villa now and again.
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It's just the way it is, unfortunately.
It's all very well for UEFA to blather on about the financial inequalities in the game and to talk about this financial fair play nonsense, but if there is one thing other than mental sheiks and oligarchs which has created this inequality over the years, it is the UEFA Champions League.
Unless football goes the NFL route of franchises, salary caps etc, this is the way that it's gonna be
There’s more chance of Gadaffi strolling into the British Embassy in Tripoli wearing a summer bonnet and dress than that happening.
The UEFA bigwigs keep asking why attendances are continuing to fall across many European clubs and yet the answer lies in the very system that they helped build. The product that they so frequently refer to is now simply not competitive and it is becoming more uncompetitive as the years go by.
What is even more depressing, is that unless the oligarchs suddenly take their money elsewhere the Premiership will continue to become less and less attractive as these super clubs scoop up every player of worth and beat the rest of the teams making up the numbers convincingly week upon week upon week. We’ll essentially become the Scottish Premiership.
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European leagues are, by and large, falling into two categories: those dominated by anti-competitive wealth for the few against the many, and those where the financial regulation of the league ensures competition. Into the latter category go France and Germany, of the major leagues - everyone else is in the former.
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We know it's true, so do the players, I just don't like hearing the manager say it.
You approach it in two ways. Be positive without being unrealistic or be negative and like any manager in any business your staff end up being de-motivated and will consider other options.
It's this sort of attitude, coupled with the style and approach to the first few games that confirm my, and many others, reservations about having this guy in charge.
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European leagues are, by and large, falling into two categories: those dominated by anti-competitive wealth for the few against the many, and those where the financial regulation of the league ensures competition. Into the latter category go France and Germany, of the major leagues - everyone else is in the former.
The Bundesliga is everything the Premiership should be, but isn't. The fans are at the heart of it and stadiums are built with the fans in mind. The league is there to further the national team and there is a huge focus on developing German talent... Oh yeah and the prices are competitive.
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As others have said, a sad reflection on the reality of football. For me, there is little enjoyment in knowing that Villa just can't compete on a level playing field for anything. A lucky cup run is the best you can hope for, crossing your fingers that should you make the final, the "super clubs" have got their mind on bigger prizes or that you come up against Arsenal.
I'm undecided on a European Superleague though. The money in that league would be like nothing before and any founder clubs would be at an immediate advantage. There would still be plenty of cash at the domestic level and should a club like Villa manage to get promotion to the Superleague, a single season in that league, plus parachute payments when the inevitable relegation comes along, would just mean that Villa were in a stronger position to dominate the domestic league and could become a yo-yo club between the two. The first 5-10 years would see a much more competitive domestic league before the inevitable gulf in financial resources becomes apparent.
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We know it's true, so do the players, I just don't like hearing the manager say it.
You approach it in two ways. Be positive without being unrealistic or be negative and like any manager in any business your staff end up being de-motivated and will consider other options.
It's this sort of attitude, coupled with the style and approach to the first few games that confirm my, and many others, reservations about having this guy in charge.
Perhaps that's the intention. Set the bar so low, that if we finish 9th or even 8th, we'll be walking away thinking 'Well, not a bad season really'.
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European leagues are, by and large, falling into two categories: those dominated by anti-competitive wealth for the few against the many, and those where the financial regulation of the league ensures competition. Into the latter category go France and Germany, of the major leagues - everyone else is in the former.
The Bundesliga is everything the Premiership should be, but isn't. The fans are at the heart of it and stadiums are built with the fans in mind. The league is there to further the national team and there is a huge focus on developing German talent... Oh yeah and the prices are competitive.
This a million times over.
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I'd be very surprised if the players are even aware he's said these comments or would take a blind bit of notice if they had,they're not fans, We are.As for Darren Bent he wouldn't be considered good enough for these so called Super Clubs anyway.I'm confident Darren is going nowhere in January
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I think he's just trying to dampen down peoples expectations, if we finish top half then its an acheivement if we finish bottom half then its becuse we can't compete
I'd rather he said nothing regarding other clubs and thier ability to spend
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I think he's just trying to dampen down peoples expectations, if we finish top half then its an acheivement if we finish bottom half then its becuse we can't compete
I'd rather he said nothing regarding other clubs and thier ability to spend
I think you are dead right about setting expectations.
The shit thing about it is that those expectations keep being re-set at an alarming rate.
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I suppose the divide is between those who need to balance the books and those to whom money is no object. Those I'd class in that 2nd category are the Manchester clubs and Chelsea only.
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It's all so sick.
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Its nothing that we dont already know, but perhaps some dont want to face.
We are not a big club [in the modern use of the word] we could and should have been but the owner of the club did not take the right steps and the right time [when we won the European Cup that should have been the start of something great]
But alas we missed the boat and uless Randy finds a few hundred million that he wants to throw at us or he sells to another very well off person then we will remain where we are...
One of the also rans in the league who hope for a decent cup run
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We know it's true, so do the players, I just don't like hearing the manager say it.
You approach it in two ways. Be positive without being unrealistic or be negative and like any manager in any business your staff end up being de-motivated and will consider other options.
It's this sort of attitude, coupled with the style and approach to the first few games that confirm my, and many others, reservations about having this guy in charge.
I feel inclined to agree with this. I think, given the climate of football at the moment and the fact that we are not in a position to financially compete with certain clubs, I would rather we had appointed a real Villa man to lead us through these unchartered territories. My big worry about McLeish is that he is indoctrinated into this present day system of football, a paid up Fergie disciple who buys into the Sky TV perception of how football works. He's part and parcel of the "industry", if you will. One of the things I look for in a Villa manager is pride in our club and a bullishness. I don't think McLeish has the nous to think outside the box and lift the club, to take the way the "industry" currently is and to say to hell with it, I can still beat the lot of them.
Calling other clubs "superclubs" isn't the best way to motivate Aston Villa players or supporters, in my view. It's one thing being realistic and saying other clubs have more resources than us at the moment, but calling them superclubs immediately gives them the upper hand over us when we get to play them. Placing other clubs on a pedestal and making us sound inferior is just downright poor leadership in my view. There's a fine line between calling other clubs superclubs and running on the pitch with an Arsenal shirt for Thierry Henry to sign.
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I feel inclined to agree with this. I think, given the climate of football at the moment and the fact that we are not in a position to financially compete with certain clubs, I would rather we had appointed a real Villa man to lead us through these unchartered territories. My big worry about McLeish is that he is indoctrinated into this present day system of football, a paid up Fergie disciple who buys into the Sky TV perception of how football works. He's part and parcel of the "industry", if you will. One of the things I look for in a Villa manager is pride in our club and a bullishness. I don't think McLeish has the nous to think outside the box and lift the club, to take the way the "industry" currently is and to say to hell with it, I can still beat the lot of them.
Calling other clubs "superclubs" isn't the best way to motivate Aston Villa players or supporters, in my view. It's one thing being realistic and saying other clubs have more resources than us at the moment, but calling them superclubs immediately gives them the upper hand over us when we get to play them. Placing other clubs on a pedestal and making us sound inferior is just downright poor leadership in my view. There's a fine line between calling other clubs superclubs and running on the pitch with an Arsenal shirt for Thierry Henry to sign.
And which 'real Villa man' would you have picked?
I cna agree that the use of the term 'super club' may be a poor choice of words, but it you think back to the League Cup final against Arsenal he certainly didn't set his team out to be in awe of them.
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You can't really argue with what he said, but it does add to the feeling that we've given up and are resigned to making up the numbers. Even though results were shite under GH, at least he seemed (at times) to communicate the belief that we could become competitive without the money of the super clubs. I feel that we lost that sometime during the summer.
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European leagues are, by and large, falling into two categories: those dominated by anti-competitive wealth for the few against the many, and those where the financial regulation of the league ensures competition. Into the latter category go France and Germany, of the major leagues - everyone else is in the former.
The Bundesliga is everything the Premiership should be, but isn't. The fans are at the heart of it and stadiums are built with the fans in mind. The league is there to further the national team and there is a huge focus on developing German talent... Oh yeah and the prices are competitive.
Why should the league be there to "further the national team" ? Surely putting the best, competitive product on display should be the aim of the league and its clubs.
I just want to see Villa do well and don't give a £$%^ about how England are doing.
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I had a quick reality check of the dream not long after Randy took over. We weren't doing a Chelsea or what is now a City and going after real success, we wanted 4th place and CL revenue. I initally thought we were but we never made a 'trophy' signing, one that would put bums on seats with no resale value, like at the time a Henry type.
Mon got slaughtered for the cup surrenders but it make you wonder how much was board instruction.
As for now we have realised we just can't get fourth anymore and so have Spurs,Everton and the like and there will always be three worse sides in the league than us. Perhaps now we will focus more on domestic cups
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I suppose the divide is between those who need to balance the books and those to whom money is no object. Those I'd class in that 2nd category are the Manchester clubs and Chelsea only.
That's about right. We can say what we like to the contrary, but we aren't a 'big' club to anyone except ourselves.
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It's sad to admit but Villa, barring a drastic change of rules or takeover, are never going to be able to win the league again. It's just not possible.
Clubs like us, Everton, and plenty others who have had success in the past, can forget about challenging for titles.
It does make you wonder what the point of it all is.
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It's sad to admit but Villa, barring a drastic change of rules or takeover, are never going to be able to win the league again. It's just not possible.
Clubs like us, Everton, and plenty others who have had success in the past, can forget about challenging for titles.
It does make you wonder what the point of it all is.
Probably the same as the point has always been for 70-odd clubs. The difference now is that it's 80-odd.
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It's true what he says but I don't see why he has to keep saying things like this - "managing expectations" I suppose, telling us we can forget trying to crack the top 4. Oh well, dream dead. Sad to think that even in the dark days of division 3 we had a chance of recovering and becoming champions of Europe, whereas now we have no chance at all unless the Sultan of Brunei and Warren Buffet rock up on our doorstep with their hands in their wallets.
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We know it's true, so do the players, I just don't like hearing the manager say it.
You approach it in two ways. Be positive without being unrealistic or be negative and like any manager in any business your staff end up being de-motivated and will consider other options.
It's this sort of attitude, coupled with the style and approach to the first few games that confirm my, and many others, reservations about having this guy in charge.
I feel inclined to agree with this. I think, given the climate of football at the moment and the fact that we are not in a position to financially compete with certain clubs, I would rather we had appointed a real Villa man to lead us through these unchartered territories. My big worry about McLeish is that he is indoctrinated into this present day system of football, a paid up Fergie disciple who buys into the Sky TV perception of how football works. He's part and parcel of the "industry", if you will. One of the things I look for in a Villa manager is pride in our club and a bullishness. I don't think McLeish has the nous to think outside the box and lift the club, to take the way the "industry" currently is and to say to hell with it, I can still beat the lot of them.
Calling other clubs "superclubs" isn't the best way to motivate Aston Villa players or supporters, in my view. It's one thing being realistic and saying other clubs have more resources than us at the moment, but calling them superclubs immediately gives them the upper hand over us when we get to play them. Placing other clubs on a pedestal and making us sound inferior is just downright poor leadership in my view. There's a fine line between calling other clubs superclubs and running on the pitch with an Arsenal shirt for Thierry Henry to sign.
Agree, 'superclubs' was a poor choice of words to use.
Even though he is probably right in what he say's, it sends out all the wrong messages to its fan base and players.
Was it last season he made remarks along the same line in saying ''Aston Villa are on a completely different agenda to us'' while he was at the noses?
He's an honest straight forward bloke, but he should be careful with his choice of words.
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It's sad to admit but Villa, barring a drastic change of rules or takeover, are never going to be able to win the league again. It's just not possible.
Clubs like us, Everton, and plenty others who have had success in the past, can forget about challenging for titles.
It does make you wonder what the point of it all is.
Probably the same as the point has always been for 70-odd clubs. The difference now is that it's 80-odd.
Not for £40 a ticket though.
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You can't really argue with what he said, but it does add to the feeling that we've given up and are resigned to making up the numbers. Even though results were shite under GH, at least he seemed (at times) to communicate the belief that we could become competitive without the money of the super clubs. I feel that we lost that sometime during the summer.
If that is the case and it probably is why so openly admit it? It serves no purpose other than to take away all that we have left......hope.
As Billy Walker pointed out in his post it would be good to see some 'bulishness' coming from our manager. We're not stupid, we know there are these super clubs ( a horrible expression isn't it) with better players than we have in almost all positions, we know they have the resources to keep adding to their squads too but that alone shouldn't be the signal for the white flag 3 games into the season.
We shouldn't be openly considered as some lesser club by our own manager, it just doesn't need to be said. I want to start seeing AM talking us up, telling the world how he is going to make us take on these clubs and strive to beat them, enough of this having your belly rubbed bollocks, start showing you're ready to compete with who ever, regardless.
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And another thing (grumpy old git mode) this non competitive time we're in is so bloody expensive to watch. I want my kids to go but in reality when they leave school they're going to have to have damm good jobs to afford it.
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It's sad to admit but Villa, barring a drastic change of rules or takeover, are never going to be able to win the league again. It's just not possible.
Clubs like us, Everton, and plenty others who have had success in the past, can forget about challenging for titles.
It does make you wonder what the point of it all is.
Probably the same as the point has always been for 70-odd clubs. The difference now is that it's 80-odd.
Not for £40 a ticket though.
That's a fair point but even though prices have rocketed in the past 20 years they've not had much effect on our attendances.
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When Steve Keane said he wanted to take Blackburn into the Champions League, he was laughed at, and rightly so. Are we really in all that different a position to them?
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It's sad to admit but Villa, barring a drastic change of rules or takeover, are never going to be able to win the league again. It's just not possible.
Clubs like us, Everton, and plenty others who have had success in the past, can forget about challenging for titles.
It does make you wonder what the point of it all is.
Probably the same as the point has always been for 70-odd clubs. The difference now is that it's 80-odd.
Not for £40 a ticket though.
There's the rub! Platinum prices for steel in our case and steel prices for copper lower down. If we're cutting our cloth accordingly perhaps they could cut ticket prices? Not going to happen is it.
You can't argue with what McLeish has said, it's just that the truth hurts.
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Don't hear Tottenham saying that, or are they a super club?
I admire McLeish's honesty, and I believe we're a year or two minimum from mounting a challenge again. But no one can convince me finishing in the top 4 isn't possible with a bit of clever investment.
Once you've got Champions League football it's all up to how you act on it. Spurs lost out this year, and are still yet to send big - but they've players like signed top-class players like Gallas, Modric, VDV and Adebayor in recent years.
I assume Redknapp will be off next Summer, wonder if they'll invest big and back a new manager then? I'd guess so and have another crack at breaking up the top 4.
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Just watched the interview.Everything he said was spot on.We can't compete with these teams long term financially .He did however say we can compete with them on the pitch,when we play them.I am presuming this is the message he will pass onto the players when we do.
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Spurs, I think, are realising that qualifying for the CL once is not enough, you have got to do it nigh-on year in, year out.
I think the situation we have now is that Liverpool have been on the slide for a while (revenues, small stadium, not in the CL) and are currently having one big roll of the dice to claw back what they've lost.
Spurs aren't going to be making the kind of investment necessary to buy year in, year out CL football.
Arsenal are really feeling the fact that there's a financial gulf between themselves and the top echelon of the English game.
I thikn we will have a scenario where Man United, Man City and Chelsea basically share the league titles, and this will go on until someone comes along and makes a vast investment in a club (and given that this has only ever happened in this country twice, it probably won't happen for a long time), or the rules change massively.
Effectively, we are getting a situation very similar to the Spanish league, where two clubs share all the silverware, and there's a massive gulf to the rest, except in our case it'll be three clubs.
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Spurs, I think, are realising that qualifying for the CL once is not enough, you have got to do it nigh-on year in, year out.
I think the situation we have now is that Liverpool have been on the slide for a while (revenues, small stadium, not in the CL) and are currently having one big roll of the dice to claw back what they've lost.
Spurs aren't going to be making the kind of investment necessary to buy year in, year out CL football.
Arsenal are really feeling the fact that there's a financial gulf between themselves and the top echelon of the English game.
I thikn we will have a scenario where Man United, Man City and Chelsea basically share the league titles, and this will go on until someone comes along and makes a vast investment in a club (and given that this has only ever happened in this country twice, it probably won't happen for a long time), or the rules change massively.
Effectively, we are getting a situation very similar to the Spanish league, where two clubs share all the silverware, and there's a massive gulf to the rest, except in our case it'll be three clubs.
That's about the top and bottom of it really. In a few years, when the Prem is utterly dominated by three uber rich teams, I'll be intrigued to see how Sky market it.
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I think the absolute final nail in the coffin would be allowing clubs to sell their own TV rights seperately, as happens in some other European countries.
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You can't say we will never win the league again. Who knows what is around the corner. 2 years ago City weren't a super club. 10 years ago Chelsea weren't. We could be in Arab or Russian ownership in a few months, you never know. If, in the meantime, the product is entertaining and exciting, we have a good go at the cups and turn over the big clubs now and then, then theres no reason to be too glum.
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And of course nothing has really changed in the 40 odd years I've been around. 81-82 was freaky (enjoyable though of course) as was a few years before for Forest. What makes it worse now is that we felt optimistic. Up until the moment MON (in hindsight)left. AM making these comments on the back of a week when half our nations side is made up of former players is just another twist of the knife of reality.
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It's sad to admit but Villa, barring a drastic change of rules or takeover, are never going to be able to win the league again. It's just not possible.
Clubs like us, Everton, and plenty others who have had success in the past, can forget about challenging for titles.
It does make you wonder what the point of it all is.
Probably the same as the point has always been for 70-odd clubs. The difference now is that it's 80-odd.
Not for £40 a ticket though.
That's a fair point but even though prices have rocketed in the past 20 years they've not had much effect on our attendances.
I wasn't having a go at our attendances, I think they're great when looking at lack of success, recession and cost. I was just saying that if we've got to accept our lot amongst the also-rans and scratch around for domestic cups, then £40 for a ticket to a game in a league we have no chance of winning is steep. I recognise that this is the same for 17 other clubs.
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The manager told the truth and even though it is an uncomfortable message I don't think we should be critical of a man being honest.
We aren't a big club any more, we don't have enough people turning up every week to be able to claim that we are or an owner with deep enough pockets to pretend it.
I'm ok with that and with us working to a model based on developing the best young talent we can find both through our academy and targeted acquisitions.
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The truth often hurts
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You can't say we will never win the league again. Who knows what is around the corner. 2 years ago City weren't a super club. 10 years ago Chelsea weren't. We could be in Arab or Russian ownership in a few months, you never know. If, in the meantime, the product is entertaining and exciting, we have a good go at the cups and turn over the big clubs now and then, then theres no reason to be too glum.
You've just summed up exactly what i was saying.
Without insane Arab or Russian money - no chance, and oh well, we can have a pop at the cups and turn over the big clubs every now and then.
What is sad is that for clubs like us and many other formerly competitive clubs, that is all it comes to.
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Everyone said Chelsea would dominate when Abramovic came in, they signed world class players at the time too, but in 8 years they've won 3 league titles and got to 1 Champions League final.
Man City have undoubtedly made it harder, but it's not impossible.
We just need a long term strategy and to stick to it. If it's selling high and buying low then so be it, it's worked for so many clubs across Europe (Spurs, Lyon, Porto, Sevilla).
Winning the league might not be possible in the next 7 or 8 years, but top 4 certainly is. Take away the mans credentials as a manager, but In MON's last season we got 64 points.
Arsenal finished fourth with 68 last season.
Spurs got it with 70 in 2009/10
Arsenal with (as we know) 72 in 2008/09
So an average of 70. We hit 60, 62 and 64 under MON I believe.
A Modric instead of a Sidwell, a VDV instead of an Ireland, a Gallas instead of a Collins or, as we all knew at the time, a Bent instead of a Heskey would have got us even closer.
It's difficult, but any manager worth his salt should be able to get this club around the 60 point mark with some backing from the board after a couple of years. Then he's just got to get a bit of luck to take us that bit further. It's certainly doable.
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God how depressing has the Premiership become when our ambitions (along with the rest of the clubs) lie in the hope that some rich bloody Sheik will become along and fast track us into the Chumps League.
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I think the fact that the England squad the other night, you could say had roughly £100 million worth of ex-Villa players in midfield. Players who we had to sell in their prime, says a lot. Yes you could say they didn't want to stay, so why keep them, but the fact they didn't want to stay, or the fact we couldn't encourage them to, also says something.
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Everyone said Chelsea would dominate when Abramovic came in, they signed world class players at the time too, but in 8 years they've won 3 league titles and got to 1 Champions League final.
So they've won the league in almost half the seasons since then?
It's hardly a record of failure, is it?
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I wasn't having a go at our attendances, I think they're great when looking at lack of success, recession and cost. I was just saying that if we've got to accept our lot amongst the also-rans and scratch around for domestic cups, then £40 for a ticket to a game in a league we have no chance of winning is steep. I recognise that this is the same for 17 other clubs.
I wasn't criticising them either - I was saying that prices rose astronomically from 1992 onwards, but so did crowds.
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I feel inclined to agree with this. I think, given the climate of football at the moment and the fact that we are not in a position to financially compete with certain clubs, I would rather we had appointed a real Villa man to lead us through these unchartered territories. My big worry about McLeish is that he is indoctrinated into this present day system of football, a paid up Fergie disciple who buys into the Sky TV perception of how football works. He's part and parcel of the "industry", if you will. One of the things I look for in a Villa manager is pride in our club and a bullishness. I don't think McLeish has the nous to think outside the box and lift the club, to take the way the "industry" currently is and to say to hell with it, I can still beat the lot of them.
Calling other clubs "superclubs" isn't the best way to motivate Aston Villa players or supporters, in my view. It's one thing being realistic and saying other clubs have more resources than us at the moment, but calling them superclubs immediately gives them the upper hand over us when we get to play them. Placing other clubs on a pedestal and making us sound inferior is just downright poor leadership in my view. There's a fine line between calling other clubs superclubs and running on the pitch with an Arsenal shirt for Thierry Henry to sign.
And which 'real Villa man' would you have picked?
I cna agree that the use of the term 'super club' may be a poor choice of words, but it you think back to the League Cup final against Arsenal he certainly didn't set his team out to be in awe of them.
Yep, you make a very fair point. My dream would have been Sid taking the step up with perhaps a more experienced battler working alongside him.
The point I'm trying to make is that we need a man who can rally the troops and lift/unite the club. I like McLeish and I think he has some very good qualities as a manager. I just think, as others have said, that he has chosen the wrong words on this occasion. It's a worry in the back of my mind that he just might not be bullish enough about our club and far too ready to back down to Fergie and such like. I'm certainly backing him but when I read the superclub quotes I couldn't help but inwardly groan.
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That's about the top and bottom of it really. In a few years, when the Prem is utterly dominated by three uber rich teams, I'll be intrigued to see how Sky market it.
They'll market it by saying "look how great it is to see the 3 uber rich teams destroy their opponents" Not too different from now
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That's about the top and bottom of it really. In a few years, when the Prem is utterly dominated by three uber rich teams, I'll be intrigued to see how Sky market it.
They'll market it by saying "look how great it is to see the 3 uber rich teams destroy their opponents" Not too different from now
Much of their target audience support one of the three clubs. Too many others will watch any football that's on.
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I think Sky, even the Premier League, perhaps even UEFA and FIFA wouldn't mind if all football was watched on TV, with empty stadiums. That's where the big chunk of money is.
It would be the same if film producers found that DVDs and the internet make the most money, so stop releasing films at the cinema.
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Realistic, though he does express a view that on any given game you can beat these "super" teams.
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Everyone said Chelsea would dominate when Abramovic came in, they signed world class players at the time too, but in 8 years they've won 3 league titles and got to 1 Champions League final.
Man City have undoubtedly made it harder, but it's not impossible.
We just need a long term strategy and to stick to it. If it's selling high and buying low then so be it, it's worked for so many clubs across Europe (Spurs, Lyon, Porto, Sevilla).
Winning the league might not be possible in the next 7 or 8 years, but top 4 certainly is. Take away the mans credentials as a manager, but In MON's last season we got 64 points.
Arsenal finished fourth with 68 last season.
Spurs got it with 70 in 2009/10
Arsenal with (as we know) 72 in 2008/09
So an average of 70. We hit 60, 62 and 64 under MON I believe.
A Modric instead of a Sidwell, a VDV instead of an Ireland, a Gallas instead of a Collins or, as we all knew at the time, a Bent instead of a Heskey would have got us even closer.
It's difficult, but any manager worth his salt should be able to get this club around the 60 point mark with some backing from the board after a couple of years. Then he's just got to get a bit of luck to take us that bit further. It's certainly doable.
That's the spirit!
The way I see it is that in order to make that large step up what we need to to use the finances we do have in the best way possible. Despite the results under MON, that wasn't the case. If we can continue to build with a better focus on the aspects MON let slip, while still maintaining the on field competitiveness he gave us, then we're in with a chance. It'll be a gradual process with no guarantee of success, but I think and hope that's the plan anyway.
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I think Sky, even the Premier League, perhaps even UEFA and FIFA wouldn't mind if all football was watched on TV, with empty stadiums. That's where the big chunk of money is.
It would be the same if film producers found that DVDs and the internet make the most money, so stop releasing films at the cinema.
No, they hate empty grounds - how can they hype a game up when it's being played in front of banks of empty seats? They used to (and maybe still do) call Wigan v Fulham-type Monday night fixtures 'Black Mondays'.
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That's about the top and bottom of it really. In a few years, when the Prem is utterly dominated by three uber rich teams, I'll be intrigued to see how Sky market it.
They'll market it by saying "look how great it is to see the 3 uber rich teams destroy their opponents" Not too different from now
Much of their target audience support one of the three clubs. Too many others will watch any football that's on.
Absolutely. Most people affiliated with those teams enjoy watching them thrash an inferior opponent now and that's not going to change in the future
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Interesting article on the situation is Spain, here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/sep/07/la-liga-barcelona-real-madrid?commentpage=1#start-of-comments).
The comments in the article are around the issues faced by all European leagues at the present.
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Which clubs can't compete with us?
Blackburn
West Brom
Fulham
Swansea
Norwich
Wigan
Bolton
Wolves
Can the likes of Everton, Newcastle, Sunderland, Stoke and QPR compete with us?
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AM is correct, and the divide grows with every passing year. He never said we'd give up though, and if our targets become cup silverware and as high a finish as possible every season, then that's what it is. The league is a complete pipe dream which is incredibly sad, and CL money has put an end to the ambitions of all but 2 or 3 teams. I said it before, but the sooner these clubs split off and give us back our game and some balance then the better it will be for the great majority of us.
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I think Sky, even the Premier League, perhaps even UEFA and FIFA wouldn't mind if all football was watched on TV, with empty stadiums. That's where the big chunk of money is.
It would be the same if film producers found that DVDs and the internet make the most money, so stop releasing films at the cinema.
No, they hate empty grounds - how can they hype a game up when it's being played in front of banks of empty seats? They used to (and maybe still do) call Wigan v Fulham-type Monday night fixtures 'Black Mondays'.
It was tongue in cheek. You could though see special effects used to superimpose a crowd and create an atmosphere with sound effects. I think they use the latter at Old Trafford.
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Spurs, I think, are realising that qualifying for the CL once is not enough, you have got to do it nigh-on year in, year out.
I think the situation we have now is that Liverpool have been on the slide for a while (revenues, small stadium, not in the CL) and are currently having one big roll of the dice to claw back what they've lost.
Spurs aren't going to be making the kind of investment necessary to buy year in, year out CL football.
Arsenal are really feeling the fact that there's a financial gulf between themselves and the top echelon of the English game.
I thikn we will have a scenario where Man United, Man City and Chelsea basically share the league titles, and this will go on until someone comes along and makes a vast investment in a club (and given that this has only ever happened in this country twice, it probably won't happen for a long time), or the rules change massively.
Effectively, we are getting a situation very similar to the Spanish league, where two clubs share all the silverware, and there's a massive gulf to the rest, except in our case it'll be three clubs.
But one day those benefactors may simpply walk, leaving one "superclub", and Sky and the world at large will not be interested in a one club league.
Ah, we can all hope.
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I know we can't be the top guns in the league, but there is no reason we can't be a good and exciting team in premier league like Villarreal. They are very good team and doing well in La Liga.
I do think Randy had joined us about 2 or 3 years too late :(
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I think the fact that the England squad the other night, you could say had roughly £100 million worth of ex-Villa players in midfield. Players who we had to sell in their prime, says a lot. Yes you could say they didn't want to stay, so why keep them, but the fact they didn't want to stay, or the fact we couldn't encourage them to, also says something.
It's nothing to do with encouraging them to stay and more to do with the fact that we can't offer the same obscene wages that the so called big four or five can offer.
As in all walks of life, loyalty to an employer has gone out of the window. Now it's down to who can offer the biggest pay cheque.
When you see all this guff in the press about "I've moved to Whatever FC to win silverware". It's a load of bo**ocks. The only reason players move is to improve their bank balance at the expense of the poor mugs who are working all sorts of hours in order to keep their heads above water, and maybe at the end of the week have enough spare cash to be able to go to a football match and support the club that has run in their family for generations.
Long gone are the days when footballers showed any loyalty to their employer. With one or two notable exceptions, Gabby being one.
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I think Sky, even the Premier League, perhaps even UEFA and FIFA wouldn't mind if all football was watched on TV, with empty stadiums. That's where the big chunk of money is.
It would be the same if film producers found that DVDs and the internet make the most money, so stop releasing films at the cinema.
No, they hate empty grounds - how can they hype a game up when it's being played in front of banks of empty seats? They used to (and maybe still do) call Wigan v Fulham-type Monday night fixtures 'Black Mondays'.
You can imagine the future where the TV companies pay special effects companies to super impose a crowd onto the back ground in order to make the stadium seem fuller
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The game has changed for the worse in many ways with greedy overpaid players reaping the benefits and the rich clubs getting richer-the days of a forest or derby winning the league are well gone and after 40 years of living for football i am losing my passion for the game-oh for the game i loved in the 70s and 80s.
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Randy won't be around for much longer anyway, I reckon. So our future prospects will depend upon the next owner and whether they can compete. Personally, I think Randy will do us proud on that score.
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I think McLeish has spoke total sense since he came here.
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I think Sky, even the Premier League, perhaps even UEFA and FIFA wouldn't mind if all football was watched on TV, with empty stadiums. That's where the big chunk of money is.
It would be the same if film producers found that DVDs and the internet make the most money, so stop releasing films at the cinema.
No, they hate empty grounds - how can they hype a game up when it's being played in front of banks of empty seats? They used to (and maybe still do) call Wigan v Fulham-type Monday night fixtures 'Black Mondays'.
You can imagine the future where the TV companies pay special effects companies to super impose a crowd onto the back ground in order to make the stadium seem fuller
I can see them closing off the parts of the ground that the cameras don't cover.
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what a really sad, depressing thought, but you're right Dave
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It happens in other sports. I was at the Villa Leisure Centre for a fight a couple of years ago and two sides were empty, with a few rows of seats on a third and the fourth filled, presumably for cutaway shots of the "packed arena" when the fighters entered the ring.
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Whilst realistic football is NOT about realism. We all have our real life. That is the family and work and a realistic way with all to deal with that. What we want and I want from my Club is some relief some joy and some escapism from that reality.
So I don't want to be told that at sporting level we can not compete. Yes there is a difference at the moment between us and CL clubs and those artificially sustained by obscene money but we MUST hang in there and keep competing at the game of football. That was the vision of those men who stood under the lamp post all those years ago and we MUST stay faithful.
Let's grow organically and smack those bastards with money in the face whenever we can and keep moving and keep improving. Remember footballers are not made by money they are born with the talent and we have to keep finding them and I know this one is a bit difficult keep them.
We are Aston Villa and we will always be a Super Club no matter what.
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Whilst realistic football is NOT about realism. We all have our real life. That is the family and work and a realistic way with all to deal with that. What we want and I want from my Club is some relief some joy and some escapism from that reality.
So I don't want to be told that at sporting level we can not compete. Yes there is a difference at the moment between us and CL clubs and those artificially sustained by obscene money but we MUST hang in there and keep competing at the game of football. That was the vision of those men who stood under the lamp post all those years ago and we MUST stay faithful.
Let's grow organically and smack those bastards with money in the face whenever we can and keep moving and keep improving. Remember footballers are not made by money they are born with the talent and we have to keep finding them and I know this one is a bit difficult keep them.
We are Aston Villa and we will always be a Super Club no matter what.
What a superb post!
'And me...'
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You can't knock McLeish for saying it. He's not wrong and it is a conclusion that plenty who are under no illusions have already came to.
It's depressing but true.
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With the hope around our club all but extinct, many of us can accept that we have no chance of winning the big prizes in football ever again (or until we're bought out by billionaires). Enjoyment is unlikely to come in the shape of trophies and titles, but it can be found in the way we as fans decide to support our club. We need to make it fun again, special, and not a chore.
There are a few clubs out there, which have absolutely no chance of winning anything, but still manage to feel special and celebrate it in style. St Pauli spring to mind. They're different, they feel it and they make a big deal out of it. But they know they're shit and always will be shit. With us, we know we're no longer a big club, but that doesn't mean we as fans can't build the cult of Aston Villa. Our future glories are more likely to come off the pitch rather than on it, and as sad as that sounds at least it would be glory of sorts.
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It happens in other sports. I was at the Villa Leisure Centre for a fight a couple of years ago and two sides were empty, with a few rows of seats on a third and the fourth filled, presumably for cutaway shots of the "packed arena" when the fighters entered the ring.
I could be wrong but when we played in the Makita tournament in Wembley in 1990 there was no one on the side of the stadium where the cameras were, everyone ( and there wasn't that many ) was either behind the goals or on the side facing the cameras.
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How we are going to find Arab Randy Lerner with More money than Roman and Man City owner put together. We might well well ask for Cahill, Barry, Milner, Young X 2, Croch and Downing to come back home.
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How we are going to find Arab Randy Lerner with More money than Roman and Man City owner put together. We might well well ask for Cahill, Barry, Milner, Young X 2, Croch and Downing to come back home.
There is that Arab bloke looking to 'move on' and put his money into a safe investment. What his name, Gaddof.., Gadaffi? Something like that. And he's a Colonel, so should have a lot to chat about with the General.
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Whilst realistic football is NOT about realism. We all have our real life. That is the family and work and a realistic way with all to deal with that. What we want and I want from my Club is some relief some joy and some escapism from that reality.
So I don't want to be told that at sporting level we can not compete. Yes there is a difference at the moment between us and CL clubs and those artificially sustained by obscene money but we MUST hang in there and keep competing at the game of football. That was the vision of those men who stood under the lamp post all those years ago and we MUST stay faithful.
Let's grow organically and smack those bastards with money in the face whenever we can and keep moving and keep improving. Remember footballers are not made by money they are born with the talent and we have to keep finding them and I know this one is a bit difficult keep them.
We are Aston Villa and we will always be a Super Club no matter what.
Whilst realistic football is NOT about realism. We all have our real life. That is the family and work and a realistic way with all to deal with that. What we want and I want from my Club is some relief some joy and some escapism from that reality.
So I don't want to be told that at sporting level we can not compete. Yes there is a difference at the moment between us and CL clubs and those artificially sustained by obscene money but we MUST hang in there and keep competing at the game of football. That was the vision of those men who stood under the lamp post all those years ago and we MUST stay faithful.
Let's grow organically and smack those bastards with money in the face whenever we can and keep moving and keep improving. Remember footballers are not made by money they are born with the talent and we have to keep finding them and I know this one is a bit difficult keep them.
We are Aston Villa and we will always be a Super Club no matter what.
/quote]
Absolutely right. Mcleish is sounding dangerously like O'Leary and that kind of defeatist crap won't get me parting with my hard earned too often.
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With the hope around our club all but extinct, many of us can accept that we have no chance of winning the big prizes in football ever again (or until we're bought out by billionaires). Enjoyment is unlikely to come in the shape of trophies and titles, but it can be found in the way we as fans decide to support our club. We need to make it fun again, special, and not a chore.
There are a few clubs out there, which have absolutely no chance of winning anything, but still manage to feel special and celebrate it in style. St Pauli spring to mind. They're different, they feel it and they make a big deal out of it. But they know they're shit and always will be shit. With us, we know we're no longer a big club, but that doesn't mean we as fans can't build the cult of Aston Villa. Our future glories are more likely to come off the pitch rather than on it, and as sad as that sounds at least it would be glory of sorts.
Like it!! We going to start to have strippers in the corporate boxes for half time entertainment and a sausage train too?
I like where you're coming from with building a cult kind of style. I envied Man City when they pinched the poznan. It does look ace
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I feel inclined to agree with this. I think, given the climate of football at the moment and the fact that we are not in a position to financially compete with certain clubs, I would rather we had appointed a real Villa man to lead us through these unchartered territories. My big worry about McLeish is that he is indoctrinated into this present day system of football, a paid up Fergie disciple who buys into the Sky TV perception of how football works. He's part and parcel of the "industry", if you will. One of the things I look for in a Villa manager is pride in our club and a bullishness. I don't think McLeish has the nous to think outside the box and lift the club, to take the way the "industry" currently is and to say to hell with it, I can still beat the lot of them.
Calling other clubs "superclubs" isn't the best way to motivate Aston Villa players or supporters, in my view. It's one thing being realistic and saying other clubs have more resources than us at the moment, but calling them superclubs immediately gives them the upper hand over us when we get to play them. Placing other clubs on a pedestal and making us sound inferior is just downright poor leadership in my view. There's a fine line between calling other clubs superclubs and running on the pitch with an Arsenal shirt for Thierry Henry to sign.
And which 'real Villa man' would you have picked?
I cna agree that the use of the term 'super club' may be a poor choice of words, but it you think back to the League Cup final against Arsenal he certainly didn't set his team out to be in awe of them.
Yep, you make a very fair point. My dream would have been Sid taking the step up with perhaps a more experienced battler working alongside him.
The point I'm trying to make is that we need a man who can rally the troops and lift/unite the club. I like McLeish and I think he has some very good qualities as a manager. I just think, as others have said, that he has chosen the wrong words on this occasion. It's a worry in the back of my mind that he just might not be bullish enough about our club and far too ready to back down to Fergie and such like. I'm certainly backing him but when I read the superclub quotes I couldn't help but inwardly groan.
I think you might be confusing what would motivate the fans with what motivates the large-headphone-encumbered tosspots who play football for a living.
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Daniel Levy is employed by the owner at Spurs who is a silent backer. If Randy hates the limelight perhaps he should employ someone in a similar role.
Faulkner has no experience in football pre-Villa does he?
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You cant blame Mcleish for lowering expectations, its Rule Number 1 in the Football Management Survival handbook.
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There's no doubting the truth in what AM has said, but the question is "Does anyone want us to become a Super Club?"
I'll hold my hand up and say no I don't. To me becoming a 'Super Club' would be a bit like the relatively unknown band you love suddenly becoming everyone else's favourite - it takes the love out of it a bit.
When I watched our pre-season game against Chelsea on TV and saw all the locals wearing Chelsea shirts I thought to myself I'd hate that if it was Villa.
Call me selfish, but my Villa, my team who I share with the good folk of Brum and its surrounds are big enough and popular enough for me - followed by people with a real connection to the club.
I don't think I could handle supporting a team who go to Wembley two or three times every year, and who are expected to win every game - so much so that when they do it's not really much fun.
When the Villa next win something - and we will one day - it will be very special.
We may not be a Super Club, but we are a super club... smashing in fact.
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Good points above. Some time ago the question was asked - would you want Manchester United's success if it meant becoming like them, which we would inevitable have to? I honestly don't know.
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Yes money is the main thing in cracking the top 4 and we got close but that's all gone now- randy and mon did give it their best shot though and although mon wasted a lot of cash he brought in some top players who made the club millions as well ie Milner, young and downing and sometimes doesn't get the credit he deserved.
The mon years were enjoyable but had run their course and without sufficient investment I think he could see the top 4 would pull away from us - now the gap is bigger than ever and unless a superich new owner arrives I expect the fa cup to be our highest realistic ambition and that is a long shot in itself- I see us in the 7-12 bracket for a while to come sadly.
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Good points above. Some time ago the question was asked - would you want Manchester United's success if it meant becoming like them, which we would inevitable have to? I honestly don't know.
After the cup final last year we ended up in a pub in Harrow. It was probably 60-40 in Newton Heath's favour, but while they sat around chatting we were having a high old time, singing and enjoying the craic with the staff. I got talking to some of their fans and there rather blase about the whole day and their victory.
It made me consider whether constant success is actually that desirable as opposed to occasional triumph in Cup competitions so you can savour and enjoy the moment. I appreciate that the Newton Heath fans would be rather more vocal had the CL been won but it's just a question of scale. We might have been daytrippers, looked upon as enjoying our day in the spotlight but it seemed that we had far more fun than they did despite loosing and as following football is essentially a leisure activity, who had the better time?
If the game at the top level was more competative, leading to a greater spread of honours then maybe the image I have of a set of fans, whose club had just won the cup, looking miserable as sin might become a rarity.
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Good points above. Some time ago the question was asked - would you want Manchester United's success if it meant becoming like them, which we would inevitable have to? I honestly don't know.
After the cup final last year we ended up in a pub in Harrow. It was probably 60-40 in Newton Heath's favour, but while they sat around chatting we were having a high old time, singing and enjoying the craic with the staff. I got talking to some of their fans and there rather blase about the whole day and their victory.
It made me consider whether constant success is actually that desirable as opposed to occasional triumph in Cup competitions so you can savour and enjoy the moment. I appreciate that the Newton Heath fans would be rather more vocal had the CL been won but it's just a question of scale. We might have been daytrippers, looked upon as enjoying our day in the spotlight but it seemed that we had far more fun than they did despite loosing and as following football is essentially a leisure activity, who had the better time?
If the game at the top level was more competative, leading to a greater spread of honours then maybe the image I have of a set of fans, whose club had just won the cup, looking miserable as sin might become a rarity.
Pretty much the same after losing to Chelsea in 2000 - spoke with some lads after the game and they looked morose - I said "cheer up lads youv`e won the cup for **** sakes"
The retort - " Yeh mate, but we want Champions League"
Says it all really.
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Here's an interesting spin on things. A friend of mine is a year younger, he turns 24 in the next couple of weeks and he started to support Man U as a young boy around about 93/94. He said he remembers being very upset when Blackburn won the title in 94/95 but that ultimately he regrets the fact he has ended up supporting such a successful team.
He recently told me he wishes he had fallen for a club like Villa or Spurs. He admits himself he is blasé about success with United and takes it for granted they will sign the best players. He said he's a bit jealous of all the ups and downs he's seen me go through, like the elation of the 6-4 win against Blackburn, the devastation of the cup final and the FA cup semi final. I think he has fallen out of love with the game in the last couple of years to be fair, which is sad because he has a wonderful football brain and is actually a very good player too.
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Here's an interesting spin on things. A friend of mine is a year younger, he turns 24 in the next couple of weeks and he started to support Man U as a young boy around about 93/94. He said he remembers being very upset when Blackburn won the title in 94/95 but that ultimately he regrets the fact he has ended up supporting such a successful team.
He recently told me he wishes he had fallen for a club like Villa or Spurs. He admits himself he is blasé about success with United and takes it for granted they will sign the best players. He said he's a bit jealous of all the ups and downs he's seen me go through, like the elation of the 6-4 win against Blackburn, the devastation of the cup final and the FA cup semi final. I think he has fallen out of love with the game in the last couple of years to be fair, which is sad because he has a wonderful football brain and is actually a very good player too.
You can grow up and make adult decisions, and then support a club on it's locality and merits. I used to support Liverpool as an 8-9-10 year old, yet used to go down and watch the Villa with my family and friends. Eventually in my teens, I admitted to myself I was a Villa fan. I think you can get counselling for your friend, it's called turning Sky TV off.
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It may be early days, but it looks like the Super Clubs might only be the two Manchester teams.
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Too early in the season yet-remember chelsea were hammering all and sundry early last season and then faded,although i must admit some of the football city have played in the last couple of weeks has been superb to watch , a far cry from last season.
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Too early in the season yet-remember chelsea were hammering all and sundry early last season and then faded,although i must admit some of the football city have played in the last couple of weeks has been superb to watch , a far cry from last season.
They may spend their load, so to speak, in the early part of the season, but I wouldn't want ti play any of them at the moment. That said, even when their momentum drops, they both have massive reserves to call on.
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Too early in the season yet-remember chelsea were hammering all and sundry early last season and then faded,although i must admit some of the football city have played in the last couple of weeks has been superb to watch , a far cry from last season.
They may spend their load, so to speak, in the early part of the season, but I wouldn't want ti play any of them at the moment. That said, even when their momentum drops, they both have massive reserves to call on.
I see city as very strong contenders for not just the title but also the chamoions league, the squad they have assembled is incredible and after years in the shadows of utd i feel pleased for their long suffering loyal fans that its their turn for some glory.
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I think we need to wait and see how they cope with two games every week and the extra demands that brings. Yes, they've got a strong squad but they still have to find a way of chopping and changing and sustaining level of performance to keep them in the title race. Ferguson has years of experience of dealing with it where it will all be new to Man City. I'm not suggesting that they can't do it just that I think it's a possibility.
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There's no doubting the truth in what AM has said, but the question is "Does anyone want us to become a Super Club?"
I'll hold my hand up and say no I don't. To me becoming a 'Super Club' would be a bit like the relatively unknown band you love suddenly becoming everyone else's favourite - it takes the love out of it a bit.
When I watched our pre-season game against Chelsea on TV and saw all the locals wearing Chelsea shirts I thought to myself I'd hate that if it was Villa.
Call me selfish, but my Villa, my team who I share with the good folk of Brum and its surrounds are big enough and popular enough for me - followed by people with a real connection to the club.
I don't think I could handle supporting a team who go to Wembley two or three times every year, and who are expected to win every game - so much so that when they do it's not really much fun.
When the Villa next win something - and we will one day - it will be very special.
We may not be a Super Club, but we are a super club... smashing in fact.
Strange how I was reading that with the Hovis Music going on in the background
All good points though, wheres the fun in supporting a club where chances are you are going to win every game
Although it would be nice at the beginning of the season to think that just maybe this is our season?
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Good points above. Some time ago the question was asked - would you want Manchester United's success if it meant becoming like them, which we would inevitable have to? I honestly don't know.
Must admit, I'd accept it if it meant we won a shedload of trophies. I know it was a different footbaling era, but did anyone get bored of cup runs and winning things between 75-83? We lifted pots in 75, 77, 81. 82 and 83 (if you include the Super cup). Were any of you bored of winning them?