Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: IFWaters on August 21, 2011, 10:36:14 PM
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Its probably been done to death before but what was the turning point that ended our progress in the last 5 years ?
eg - losing the League or FA semi-final at Wembley ?
which league games should we have won and grabbed 4th place in 09-10?
not signing Bent when he went to Sunderland ?
selling Milner ?
the money just ran out ?
I know MON will be mentioned but I was more interested in what you think the 'tipping point' was
For me, it was the failure to sign Bent in 2009 (even though after that we splashed several million on several mediocre defenders).
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Stoke's equaliser.
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Stoke's equaliser.
That fucking goal shall not be mentioned on here.
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Gareth Barry's soft stoppage time corner, looped into the goalkeepers hands, just before Stoke equalised. If he had used a bit more nous then, he could have played Champion's League with Villa.
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Stoke's equaliser.
Absolutely this.
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Stoke's equaliser.
Deffo this. I will never forget that moment. They were in the first 70 minutes one of the worst sides I'd seen us face.
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After the Stoke goal, the non sending off of Vidic in the league cup final. That would have given us 85 minutes against 10 men and likely seen Owen subbed. A trophy may have resulted in a different outcome regarding Milner leaving, and the whole spirit of the club.
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After the Stoke goal, the non sending off of Vidic in the league cup final. That would have given us 85 minutes against 10 men and likely seen Owen subbed. A trophy may have resulted in a different outcome regarding Milner leaving, and the whole spirit of the club.
It was said by more than one observer whose opinions I tend to respect that had we won that final O'Neill would have left, on a high.
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Moscow followed by Stoke debacle.
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After the Stoke goal, the non sending off of Vidic in the league cup final. That would have given us 85 minutes against 10 men and likely seen Owen subbed. A trophy may have resulted in a different outcome regarding Milner leaving, and the whole spirit of the club.
It was said by more than one observer whose opinions I tend to respect that had we won that final O'Neill would have left, on a high.
Well at least it wouldn't have been 5 days before the start of the season.
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Moscowgate, the first time I hated MON.
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Moscow followed by Stoke debacle.
Yup. This would be mine. In amongst all the bile directed towards O'Neill, he came damn close to getting us not just in the top four, but the top three. I agreed with his Moscow gamble at the time, but the Stoke result rammed that decision right up his poop-chute. Sadly.
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What a thoroughly depressing subject!!
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Moscow followed by Stoke debacle.
Yup. This would be mine. In amongst all the bile directed towards O'Neill, he came damn close to getting us not just in the top four, but the top three. I agreed with his Moscow gamble at the time, but the Stoke result rammed that decision right up his poop-chute. Sadly.
Agreed.
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Stoke's equaliser.
This. We'd have gone 7 points clear which would have 'afforded' us defeats at Anfield and Old Trafford.
Slightly before that though, signing Heskey instead of Bent.
It was before my time, but I imagine that will compare to the Sheringham/Cascarino signing.
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Us ''strengthening'' the squad with MON's reliable old signings, in this case Emile.
And a week or two later Arsenal buying Arshavin despite them missing the deadline cos of the snow clogging up the fax machine at Lancaster Gate or somesuch guff.
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for me it was the 3 games including everton FAC, moscow and Chelsea, it was pretty obvious that we had run out of gas in the match that we won at Bburn, instead of rotating then we lost the next 3 followed by the draw against stoke, the players that he had used were on thier knees so he panicks for moscow, it was all too late MON blew it then,
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The Abu Dhabi takeover over of Man City knocked the stuffing out of Randy's plans. It came at just the wrong time for us, not only because they lured two of our best players away and the message that sent to their team-mates and our supporters, but the realisation that with their limitless amount of money it was another club we realistically had no chance of competing with. Losing to them at the end of 09/10 was the day we stopped being Champions League dreamers for a long time to come.
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Six league titles and five FA Cups in just over a quarter of a century. Plans in place to expand Villa Park capacity to 130,000.
Then some inconsiderate bastard shoots Franz Ferdinand.
We've never been (consistently) as good since.
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I vote for people that insist on finding something to be depressed about AND THEN trying to bring everyone else down with them!!!!
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MON leaving. With him at the club I believed. The managers we have attracted since then don't have the same buzz.
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MON leaving. With him at the club I believed. The managers we have attracted since then don't have the same buzz.
The horse had bolted by then, been caught, and was being processed at the glue factory.
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MON leaving. With him at the club I believed. The managers we have attracted since then don't have the same buzz.
Agreed
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MON leaving. With him at the club I believed. The managers we have attracted since then don't have the same buzz.
Agreed
Disagree........McLeish will have a better record than MON before he departs, the only people that seem to have a problem with him is some of the fans - the club & players don't.
Feel free to throw it back in my face if it's a disaster, but don't be shy in acknowledging the success.
To come back on topic - Vidic staying on the pitch in the cup - proved there and then that by hook or crook, we would be prevented in our attempts to compete with the big boys.
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MON leaving. With him at the club I believed. The managers we have attracted since then don't have the same buzz.
Agreed
Disagree........McLeish will have a better record than MON before he departs, the only people that seem to have a problem with him is some of the fans - the club & players don't.
Feel free to throw it back in my face if it's a disaster, but don't be shy in acknowledging the success.
To come back on topic - Vidic staying on the pitch in the cup - proved there and then that by hook or crook, we would be prevented in our attempts to compete with the big boys.
That's a bold prediction, Neil. I'd like to think you're right but to a certain extent it depends on how the finances pan out over the next couple of years.
Stoke again for me. We were coasting with a few minutes to go, they'd hardly troubled us all game. I think the team lost momentum and the players individually lost confidence in our ability to do it afterwards.
Also, Lerner putting a brake on the spending. I'm not arguing the rights and wrongs of it but it changed the feel of the club.
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Stoke.
Some how, the worst side I'd ever seen at Villa Park, said without hyperbole, managed to fuck it all up.
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MON leaving. With him at the club I believed. The managers we have attracted since then don't have the same buzz.
Agreed
Me too - I believed we would eternally finish around 6th to 8th and be watching turgid 70s style anti-football ad infinitum.
Real turning point was the day Randy decided MON would have control of all playing matters including deciding on the wages. No doubt a wise decision given MON's lengthy successful background in accounting, budgeting and negotiating.
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Stoke... at the end of the week we had.
I can remember my mate telling Villa to go for it, for the goal difference, but moaning at me for telling them to waste the last five minutes!
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The signing of M Harewood for me,
I remember it well in shear disbelief, as daft as it seems i lost an awfull lot of trust in MON after that, not really a turning point for Villa as a whole but for me things would never the same
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That's a bold prediction, Neil. I'd like to think you're right but to a certain extent it depends on how the finances pan out over the next couple of years.
Bold it is, I just have a feeling this appointment is right for us.
I will admit that when he was linked with, then first appointed, I though WTF - but since then, from the first press conference, from the reactions of the limited squad and all his meetings with supporters, press etc, he knows the club, he wants the club to do well and most importantly, the club appears to come first.
Our progress will probably not be spectacular, but I expect it to be steady and year on year improvement. Could have all the makings of a manager that stays with the club for beyond 5 years and while we may not impose upon the giddy heights of continuous Champions League football, (unless that particular circus implodes), I do think we will achieve regular silverware and European qualification.
Before anyone asks...........I'm still taking the tablets.
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Stoke's equaliser.
No doubt whatsoever.
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The signing of M Harewood for me,
I remember it well in shear disbelief, as daft as it seems i lost an awfull lot of trust in MON after that, not really a turning point for Villa as a whole but for me things would never the same
That was the day I realised MON was not the man to take us into the CL places.
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Six league titles and five FA Cups in just over a quarter of a century. Plans in place to expand Villa Park capacity to 130,000.
Then some inconsiderate bastard shoots Franz Ferdinand.
We've never been (consistently) as good since.
Very good, although I assume you missed the original posters..."last five years"
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Stoke's equaliser.
No doubt whatsoever.
That and buying Heskey. Oh and Arsenal buying Arshavin. If you could sum up the difference between the two managers at that point in time, that was it.
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Buying Heskey instead of Bent is when it started to go wrong for me followed closely by Moscowgate.
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Stoke's equalise was a huge blow and Heskey was the wrong signing, but despite those two things we went on and had a better season next time around, where we had to great cup runs and ended up closer to 4th points wise. So was that truely a turning point?
The reason Martin left and we're where we are now is financial, as we all know, so whatever time it was that Randy thought to himself "These sums aren't adding up" is the true turning point.
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Moscow, Heskey, Stoke. Probably the three things that did for us as a top 4 challenger.
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Moscow, Heskey, Stoke. Probably the three things that did for us as a top 4 challenger.
Yet we still challenged for the top 4 the season after these things happened?
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Stoke's equaliser.
The only way this demon will be exorcised will be when we score a goal that sends them down.
For years Wimbledon were our bogey team until 5-0 and 7-1 hammerings put paid to that.
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The signing of M Harewood for me,
I remember it well in shear disbelief, as daft as it seems i lost an awfull lot of trust in MON after that, not really a turning point for Villa as a whole but for me things would never the same
Some truth in that. If you're pushing for the top 4 you are not signing the likes of Harewood even as a squad filler. It made no sense.
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The signing of M Harewood for me,
I remember it well in shear disbelief, as daft as it seems i lost an awfull lot of trust in MON after that, not really a turning point for Villa as a whole but for me things would never the same
Some truth in that. If you're pushing for the top 4 you are not signing the likes of Harewood even as a squad filler. It made no sense.
But we weren't when we signed him - we had just finished 11th!
He'd have been OK as a short term squad filler behind Carew & Gabby, but we put him on too much money and then couldn't get rid of him.
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The Carling Cup Final.....
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Wolves at home 2009/10 for me as a villa fan .
Knew then that 6/7 would be as good as its ever gona get for Villa/Martin O'neill
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Stoke's equaliser.
No doubt whatsoever.
That and buying Heskey. Oh and Arsenal buying Arshavin. If you could sum up the difference between the two managers at that point in time, that was it.
Yes, why didn't we use that £3m to sign Arshavin.
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We didn't even try to sell Harewood, John.
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We didn't even try to sell Harewood, John.
How do you 'try to sell someone'? Surely it's more a matter of waiting for another club to come in for him? And how do we know that didn't happen and they were put off by his wages?
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The signing of M Harewood for me,
I remember it well in shear disbelief, as daft as it seems i lost an awfull lot of trust in MON after that, not really a turning point for Villa as a whole but for me things would never the same
Absolutely. We could have had Zamora for the same money...
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Stoke's equaliser.
No doubt whatsoever.
If we are talking about a moment in time then this has to be it.
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Stoke's equaliser.
No doubt whatsoever.
Me too. Especially as we were cruising most the game untill they pulled one back. Knew it would happen as well. We're so predicatble.
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Stoke's equaliser every time. Win that game, and the Moscow screams would have become a but faint noise in the background. We may even have ultimately missed out, but that equaliser, couple with our subsequent decline in our form was so dramatic that every storm converged at once. I also think it contributed to MON changing his views on the club and the fans, and he became more bitter and stubborn in his ways from there on in. He probably wanted to do things more than ever "his way" to the point that it fractured and eventually broke his relationship with our club.
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Hard to say the one difinitve moment but for me I'd go with Chelsea thumping us 7 - 1. Our competition in the likes of Spurs, Everton et al never get battered like that and I'm sure that was a lightbulb on head moment for a lot of the players. Team collapse and a bit of a clueless tactics shocker from MON too, hard to believe it was the same team involved in a 2 -1 win and a 4 all thriller the year before.
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Stoke. All reasonable belief that we'd crack it that season left as that equaliser went in. Then losing Milner. We haven't yet recovered as a side.
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Six league titles and five FA Cups in just over a quarter of a century. Plans in place to expand Villa Park capacity to 130,000.
Then some inconsiderate bastard shoots Franz Ferdinand.
We've never been (consistently) as good since.
Very good, although I assume you missed the original posters..."last five years"
Was World War One really more than five years ago? Time flies, eh!
No, I hadn't read it properly!
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The Stoke equalizer ended the big dream.
The little dream was ended by Carew blasting a penalty over the bar against Newcastle last season. If that had gone in we could have made a game of it instead of crumbling to a humiliating thrashing.
The Villa executive went into headless chicken mode and Kevin Mac never got a proper chance to steady the ship until a GOOD manager became available. Houllier was parachuted in and proceeded to screw up in every way imaginable. McLeish's appointment is fraught with danger but he has three things going for him 1. We have got rid of Houllier 2. He is not Gerard Houllier and 3. He seems to be lucky. He has had the gentlest of baptisms against two crap teams and does not have to really watch his arse until December by which time his feet will be well and truly under the table at VP.
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For me it was the FA Cup Semi Final that finally did it. I realised with MON in charge we weren't going to make it with his limited tactics and team selections, and it was a blessed relief when he then resigned, though the selfish sod could have done it earlier.
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While THAT Stoke goal was a biggie, I think the 0-0 at home to Wigan a few weeks before was the start of the doubt creeping in.
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The whole Moscow episode was it for me.
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When we had Laursen, Bouma and Mellberg (not forgetting some great players in front of them) the wage bill was £50m. The loss of those three helped the wage bill jump to £70m (and we all know how Randy liked that), and they still haven't been replaced by anything like the same quality.
So, for me, Laursen and Bouma's injuries.
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Stoke's equaliser.
No doubt whatsoever.
Me too. Especially as we were cruising most the game untill they pulled one back. Knew it would happen as well. We're so predicatble.
Yes, I remember walking away from the ground and hearing so many snatches of conversations like 'I knew it would happen' and 'we always throw it away'.
Number of points lost from a winning position up to that point that season? None.
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The Stoke equalizer ended the big dream.
The little dream was ended by Carew blasting a penalty over the bar against Newcastle last season. If that had gone in we could have made a game of it instead of crumbling to a humiliating thrashing.
The Villa executive went into headless chicken mode and Kevin Mac never got a proper chance to steady the ship until a GOOD manager became available. Houllier was parachuted in and proceeded to screw up in every way imaginable. McLeish's appointment is fraught with danger but he has three things going for him 1. We have got rid of Houllier 2. He is not Gerard Houllier and 3. He seems to be lucky. He has had the gentlest of baptisms against two crap teams and does not have to really watch his arse until December by which time his feet will be well and truly under the table at VP.
So Brian, who should be manager?
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Stoke's equaliser.
No doubt whatsoever.
Me too. Especially as we were cruising most the game untill they pulled one back. Knew it would happen as well. We're so predicatble.
Yes, I remember walking away from the ground and hearing so many snatches of conversations like 'I knew it would happen' and 'we always throw it away'.
Number of points lost from a winning position up to that point that season? None.
Never said anything about the rest of the season. Everyone knew we were going to come undone once they got one back especially as the pressure was very high being ~9 points ahead of Arsenal at the time.
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Well we are in CL qualification position going into the game with Wolves on Saturday. I hope we don't blow it again!!
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McLeish's appointment is fraught with danger but he has three things going for him 1. We have got rid of Houllier 2. He is not Gerard Houllier and 3. He seems to be lucky. He has had the gentlest of baptisms against two crap teams and does not have to really watch his arse until December by which time his feet will be well and truly under the table at VP.
I've just seen an article on Yahoo about a journalist who analysed several hundred contentious decisions last season that could have, or did, lead to a goal. He then recalculated the PL table based on the "correct" decision having been given if technology had been used. Blues would have had 5 extra points and finished on 44, well clear of relegation. Perhaps AM isn't that lucky after all.
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He'd have had to step in shit every day of his life and find a 7 leaf clover to be able to break their gypsy's curse!
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Another vote for stoke here.
I've seen plenty of late equalisers or opposition winners scored against us, but for some reason that goal seemed to hurt alot more, maybe deep-down i knew what was about to happen - and it did.
Despite having 52 points on Sat 28th Feb, in our final 11 league games, we lost 5, drew 4 and won 2... awful form for a team aspiring for champions league.
But other factors also helped like losing Laursen / Bouma to injury, poor signings (harewood, beye etc) and not signing Bent off Spurs, Man.C new owners etc... could go on but im depressed enough now.
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I must admit I have sympathy with the Marlon Harewood viewpoint, though I don't think it was a real turning point. Up until then the signings that had been made since the RL takeover (not counting a couple of stop gap signings like Chris Sutton and that winger guy) had really pushed the club forward. I remember speculating upon who Villa would go for when it came to signing a forward that summer. Jermain Defoe? Darren Bent? A big signing from the continent?
Then the news came through - we were in for Marlon Harewood.
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The Abu Dhabi takeover over of Man City knocked the stuffing out of Randy's plans. It came at just the wrong time for us, not only because they lured two of our best players away and the message that sent to their team-mates and our supporters, but the realisation that with their limitless amount of money it was another club we realistically had no chance of competing with. Losing to them at the end of 09/10 was the day we stopped being Champions League dreamers for a long time to come.
Yeah I'd agree with that.
We took the lead in that game aswell. Infact we were leading with a minute to go to half time before Warnock and Downing turned into brain dead footballers.
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I must admit I have sympathy with the Marlon Harewood viewpoint, though I don't think it was a real turning point. Up until then the signings that had been made since the RL takeover (not counting a couple of stop gap signings like Chris Sutton and that winger guy) had really pushed the club forward. I remember speculating upon who Villa would go for when it came to signing a forward that summer. Jermain Defoe? Darren Bent? A big signing from the continent?
Then the news came through - we were in for Marlon Harewood.
That same summer that we signed Harewood, Blackburn signed Santa Cruz for about the same price, c.£4m. They went on to sell him for silly money, whereas we got no return on Harewood. That sums up O'Neill in the transfer market for me; ignoring proven quality on the continent in favour of home grown mediocrity.
I'd agree on Stoke being the real turning point though, I still remembering driving home in shock, as the realisation dawned that we'd blown such as massive chance. As I recall Arsenal had been held at home against someone crap so beating Stoke would have seen us open up a real gap.
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I didnt mean to depress anyone btw, just interested.
I agree with the concensus - to a point - in terms of results / trajectory of the team, the Stoke result was a massive blow to confidence from which we never recovered.
Re the playing staff the Heskey / Bent thing is complex. If I recall correctly Bent wasnt available at the time that Heskey was signed. I think in Jan he was still 'in the frame' at Spurs but a short while later Redknapp made the infamous 'My Mrs could have done better' comment which sealed his fate.
I dont think Spurs would have sold him us at the time. Or am I mixing my years up?
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I'll go for the Stoke game, too.
The resulting loss of confidence from failing to hold on to a 2-0 lead against arguably the worst team that visited Villa Park that season, coupled with the Moscow debacle, created a perfect storm. The fall-out from which, with hindsight, MON never really recovered from.
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Stoke hit a post shortly before they got their first goal. I remember thinking, 'thats a warning sign'.
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Moscow
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That same summer that we signed Harewood, Blackburn signed Santa Cruz for about the same price, c.£4m. They went on to sell him for silly money, whereas we got no return on Harewood. That sums up O'Neill in the transfer market for me; ignoring proven quality on the continent in favour of home grown mediocrity.
Whilst the Harewood signing was not the best, Santa Cruz who has only scored double figures in one season (also the only one he was injury free) which is the first season at Blackburn seems a strange example to say proven quality from the continent. They got silly money in the same way we did for Milner, Man Citeh. I don't disagree with the main point on transfers, just that Santa Cruz was as much as a gamble as Harewood at the time.
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Stoke hit a post shortly before they got their first goal. I remember thinking, 'thats a warning sign'.
From a 30 yarder wasn't it. And didn't they hit it twice?
I agree a lot of people about Stoke, although the next four matches were Citeh, Liverpool and Manure away and Spurs at home, none of them easy matches to get any points from.
But I agree more with another poster that the loss of Laursen was the bigger turning point. We lost a leader on the pitch, a goal getter at corners and Davies started to lose his confidence which meant we had to spend on two extra defenders which wouldn't have been needed and could have been used to bolster the attack.
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That same summer that we signed Harewood, Blackburn signed Santa Cruz for about the same price, c.£4m. They went on to sell him for silly money, whereas we got no return on Harewood. That sums up O'Neill in the transfer market for me; ignoring proven quality on the continent in favour of home grown mediocrity.
Whilst the Harewood signing was not the best, Santa Cruz who has only scored double figures in one season (also the only one he was injury free) which is the first season at Blackburn seems a strange example to say proven quality from the continent. They got silly money in the same way we did for Milner, Man Citeh. I don't disagree with the main point on transfers, just that Santa Cruz was as much as a gamble as Harewood at the time.
I'd say a Bayern Munich striker who was a regular in the Paraguay national team would be a better bet than a striker in a piss poor West Ham team whose own fans didn't even rate. I'm not a huge fan of Santa Cruz anyway, but my point being that he's far better than Harewood, and always has been.
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Yes, I remember walking away from the ground and hearing so many snatches of conversations like 'I knew it would happen' and 'we always throw it away'.
Number of points lost from a winning position up to that point that season? None.
But how many late goals had we let in. Middlesborough home was one, Stoke away another and obviously Everton away (although with Leeg away I can say we obviously had the last laugh in that game without fear of some Video being shown). Even with some of the wins, we had let in late goals. Citeh first match being definitely one of them.
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It didnt really go sour for me until after the Carling Cup Final. I came out of the FA Cup replay with Palace feeling as optimistic and excited as i had ever been as a Villa fan - even though i persoanlly couldnt go, it was next stop Wembley - and was absolutely desperate for us to win the cup but of course reality soon bit in. Man Utd's eventual superiority plus the usual crappy biased ref meant it all went flat after that. The Chelsea semi-final was all too predictable as we huffed and puffed before they eventually raised it a gear and blew us away - again, benefiting from some biased reffing. The final home match with Blackburn may have meant nothing in terms of league placing etc but the defeat and typical MON home performance meant i went home incredibly depressed even though the season on the whole was easily one of the best in recent memory.
Its been downhill ever since, particularly with the apparent lowering of ambitions from the owners and the selling of some of our better players. At the moment i am just trying to take each game at a time but its definitely gone sour for me as far as football is concerned. Its a closed shop now for all but 2-3 clubs followed by glory hunting bastards all over the world who come into the work the next day who dont know their team's own score from the previous day but will give you shit the minute the do find out.
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I tend to think it was the Everton FA Cup game before the Stoke result. The Stoke one was hurtful and did everything to our confidence as others say, but I always thought CL qualification was a massive leap of faith and wasn't hugely shocked we didn't get it. The way Everton took us apart at Goodison, however, made me realise just how brittle we were heading into the back end of the season.
As an aside, I recall coming back from the Chelsea semi defeat and thinking it was the end of an era. There was just something in the atmosphere that felt like we all knew we'd never be good enough. I stood outside Chap's Pizza next to Witton station at ten that evening eating some horrible cheese burger and felt utterly despondent.
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25 years of watching Aston Villa allow me to express optimism as a mathematical formula thus =
OPT = (Feeling about ENVIRONMENT X STATUS OF CLUB X MANAGER X SQUAD STRENGTH X FORM)
Where,
STATUS OF CLUB /4; CONTENDERS=4; MID-TABLE =3; AT RISK = 2; GOING DOWN = 1 ; CURRENT = 3
MANAGER/3 ; CURRENT = 2 (UNPROVEN)
SQUAD/3 ; CURRENT = 2 ; AVERAGE
FORM/3 ; CURRENT = 2
OUR SCORE = 24 / 108. ie our chance of CL qualification approx 20 %
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25 years of watching Aston Villa allow me to express optimism as a mathematical formula thus =
OPT = (Feeling about ENVIRONMENT X STATUS OF CLUB X MANAGER X SQUAD STRENGTH X FORM)
Where,
STATUS OF CLUB /4; CONTENDERS=4; MID-TABLE =3; AT RISK = 2; GOING DOWN = 1 ; CURRENT = 3
MANAGER/3 ; CURRENT = 2 (UNPROVEN)
SQUAD/3 ; CURRENT = 2 ; AVERAGE
FORM/3 ; CURRENT = 2
OUR SCORE = 24 / 108. ie our chance of CL qualification approx 20 %
Erm...... Que?
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Someone had a list of forwards that moved at the same time we signed Harewood and Heskey before. Some of the names on there were crazy.
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All moved the Summer we signed Harewood (to Clubs we realistically could compete with)
Roque Santa Cruz
Yakubu
Diomansy Kamara
Valeri Bojinov
Geovanni
Tuncay Sanli
Mark Viduka
Giussepe Rossi
Darren Bent
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Moscow
Why, where you off to?
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25 years of watching Aston Villa allow me to express optimism as a mathematical formula thus =
OPT = (Feeling about ENVIRONMENT X STATUS OF CLUB X MANAGER X SQUAD STRENGTH X FORM)
Where,
STATUS OF CLUB /4; CONTENDERS=4; MID-TABLE =3; AT RISK = 2; GOING DOWN = 1 ; CURRENT = 3
MANAGER/3 ; CURRENT = 2 (UNPROVEN)
SQUAD/3 ; CURRENT = 2 ; AVERAGE
FORM/3 ; CURRENT = 2
OUR SCORE = 24 / 108. ie our chance of CL qualification approx 20 %
You are Pythagoras and I claim my prize.
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WHat will the next turning point be I wonder? I'd like to think a heavy beating of Wolves will be the day the not-sures would start get behind AM and a return of quiet optimism.